How far will the harassment of Hager go?

Written By: - Date published: 9:16 am, October 7th, 2014 - 241 comments
Categories: Abuse of power, accountability, Ethics, police - Tags: , ,

Yesterday Nicky Hager released a statement which began:

Statement by Nicky Hager on police seizing property

On Thursday, 2 October, five police arrived at my home with a warrant to search and seize property. I was in Auckland at the time for two days of lectures at the University of Auckland. The police spent over ten hours searching the house and removing property in an attempt to discover the identity of the person who provided information used in my book Dirty Politics.

Soon after the police arrived, the lead detective stated that I was not a suspect in their case, merely a witness. I spoke to him by phone and informed him that he would find no information in the house about my source. Nonetheless, he and his four colleagues seized a large collection of papers and electronic equipment belonging to my family, including computers, drives, phones, CDs, an IPOD and a camera. …

Fifty person hours searching one house? For someone who is merely a witness, not a suspect? What did they think they were going to find on an iPod – incriminating music? It can only be designed to intimidate Hager, his family, and any other potential whistleblowers.

How far will this harassment go?

Investigative journalist Nicky Hager says he will go to prison rather than reveal the identity of the hacker source for his Dirty Politics book, following a police raid on his home.

Key’s government has a systematic record of attacking journalists and media outlets that embarrass them. Meanwhile the numerous other police complaints arising from Dirty Politics remain in limbo…

Update: Russell Brown said it better in “Doing over the witness”. So did Gordon Campbell.

241 comments on “How far will the harassment of Hager go? ”

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  1. weka 1
    7 October 2014 at 9:37 am

    Russell Brown on doing over the witness,

    http://publicaddress.net/9495

    Including, for those wondering what happened to the material that Rawshark gave to the other three journos,

    If Hager’s work has been impaired for the time being, the other journalists will continue theirs. At least one of those journalists has now completed a substantial post-election story based on Rawshark material. It’s just a matter of when it will be published.

    edit, I see r0b’s posted the link too šŸ™‚

    • kiwisaver 1.1
      7 October 2014 at 8:08 pm

      I wonder why it’s a post-election story. Would have been more useful before.
      If it’s very complicated and there were good reasons to not publish before the election, well fair enough, but what’s taking so long?
      I’ve lost faith in our journalists in the corporate media.
      Most are happy to be led by the nose by politicians and guys like whaleoil while democracy goes begging.

      • wekarawshark 1.1.1
        7 October 2014 at 9:02 pm

        They were in court before the election establishing they could use the material.

        Could be the story is in depth and they needed time to research and corroborate. Lawyers will be looking at it too.

      • finbar 1.1.2
        8 October 2014 at 12:57 am

        John,is now in charge of this new secret control,that is going to tear up home comiing freedom fighters passports,go back to your fight you are not welcome here.Why did they not ravage Hagers home,they where fighting a election.They have won,and Hager and his types are now fair game.Ahonest reality of our ruling corporations mind,one that should be understood.

  2. Corokia 2
    7 October 2014 at 9:39 am

    Police resources used to try and find the identity of a hacker who caused embarrassment to the National party, yet the police were unable to find the resources to interview someone linked to the death of a teenager.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/10566764/Police-slammed-for-alcohol-death-investigation-delay

    • framu 2.1
      7 October 2014 at 9:48 am

      lets not forget they couldnt even be bothered asking for a warrant when some west ak drop kicks bragged about committing sexual assault online – even when there was a formal complaint

  3. Dialey 3
    7 October 2014 at 9:42 am

    Time for a little mischief making – started on TDB, the declaration based on the slave revolt in the film Spartacus

    I am Rawshark

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8h_v_our_Q

    Join the revolution, declare your solidarity

  4. Berend de Boer 4
    7 October 2014 at 9:46 am

    Anthony, do you believe a crime was committed when Whaleoil’s emails and facebook messages were taken?

    • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1
      7 October 2014 at 9:50 am

      I do. It means the emails and Facebook messages are all genuine.

      Do you believe Section 68 of the Evidence Act?

      Do you believe Cameron Slater when he tells the High Court the emails etc. are genuine? Do you believe the Prime Minister’s Office when they confess their crime to the NZLP?

      • Berend de Boer 4.1.1
        7 October 2014 at 9:55 am

        I think there is no doubt that the emails/facebook messages are genuine (the reporting on them appears to have lacunas though).

        So given a crime was committed, should receivers of stolen goods be investigated? Or only under certain circumstances or only certain individuals?

        An aggravating circumstance is that Nicky Hager clearly profited from stolen goods.

        PS: to cut down on people who read all kinds of things I didn’t write or say: it’s unlikely Nicky Hager can be successfully prosecuted, and yes, I enjoyed the book and bought a copy.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.1.1
          7 October 2014 at 9:58 am

          So, you don’t believe in Section 68 of the Evidence Act.

          I’m sorry to burst your bubble: Section 68 of the Evidence Act is a real thing.

          • SGThree 4.1.1.1.1
            7 October 2014 at 11:18 am

            It is arguable whether section 68 applies (Hager is not being compelled to disclose the identity of his source, and it is debatable whether he received that information as a journalist rather than an author), but even if it did, section 68 (2) allows the removal of the protection where, having regard to the issues to be determined in a proceedings, public interest outweighs any adverse impact on the informant. Somehow I think that a Judge would say that the public interest in having offenders prosecuted for breach of the Crimes Act outweighs the adverse affect on the informant. In this case it is likely that the offender and the informant are one and the same person. No court is going to hold that s68 gives that person immunity from prosecution where the evidence that could convict them has been given to a journalist. You will have criminals running off to confess to the nearest journalist left right and centre if that were the case..

            • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.1.1.1.1
              7 October 2014 at 11:23 am

              šŸ™„

              Beware of bush lawyers bearing drivel. No, wait.

              Correction: ridicule bush lawyers bearing drivel.

            • Pascals bookie 4.1.1.1.1.2
              7 October 2014 at 11:46 am

              But wouldn’t a ruling that effectively said that going to a journalist means you will get busted effectively remove the journalistic protection? Hager isn’t being compelled to give up the source, but they are looking hard at Hager’s gear to try and find the source.

              Surely it isn’t about the source getting immunity, but rather the police being told to find some evidence other than via the journalistic contact?

              If the public interest in catching a hacker outweighs the idea that journalists shouldn’t have to give up their sources, then any future hacker who finds things of public interest is being told that ‘going to a journalist is very risky, because even though the docs are of public interest the police can go on a fishing expedition’.

              The outcome of that would probably be wholesale dumping of files on the internet.

              • One Anonymous Bloke …
                7 October 2014 at 11:52 am

                Yep.

                Journalists are bound to publish material in the public interest, and [redact] the rest – the private stuff.

                No such ethics will prevail in a world minus protection for sources.

                • Pascals bookie …
                  7 October 2014 at 11:57 am

                  And there’s also the matter of whatever else, unrelated to the Slater stuff, is on the computers taken by the poice. Whatever else Hager is working on.

                  So if police can just come in and take away journalists files because of one story they worked on, most newsrooms will dry up pretty damn quick.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke …
                    7 October 2014 at 12:08 pm

                    There’s also the matter of journalists who know potentially compromising things about hardened criminals – thanks The Police for putting all their lives at risk.

                    He’d do such a great job if only he’d stop stepping on his amygdala. Went flying and smashed three vases yesterday.

              • SGThree …
                7 October 2014 at 12:09 pm

                You seem to be glossing over the fact that hacking is a criminal offence. Take your 2nd last paragraph and substitute the word hacker with the word burglar. Are hackers / burglars to be excused of their crimes because they find something of public interest in the course of their criminal activity?

                • Pascals bookie …
                  7 October 2014 at 12:12 pm

                  It’s not about excusing people of their crimes.

                  It’s about the police having to find other evidence to convict them.

                • One Anonymous Bloke …
                  7 October 2014 at 12:19 pm

                  False equivalence, SGThree.

                  When burglars uncover something of the public interest in the course of their criminal activity, it is in the public interest that that material be published.

                  Perhaps you can suggest a better method than the one Detective Hodson Busseri is currently dismantling.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke …
                    7 October 2014 at 12:25 pm

                    Let me see if I can provide an illustration that you will find appealing.

                    It was in the public interest that Labour’s lax computer security be publicised, despite the crimes committed by the Prime Minister’s Office in exploiting the lapse to steal information.

                    • SGThree …
                      7 October 2014 at 1:26 pm

                      I do not believe that a crime was committed when Labours security flaws were discovered, and I suspect that the fact that no criminal proceedings have resulted is due not to some right wing conspiracy, but because legal advice received by police and other parties at the time suggests that a crime was not committed.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      7 October 2014 at 1:36 pm

                      Some bush lawyer was here a while back telling everyone that John Banks is innocent, too.

                  • SGThree …
                    7 October 2014 at 12:46 pm

                    I disagree OAB, with your initial premise. Rights to privacy outweigh any right to disclose due to some nefarious thing called public interest. That is why it is an offence to access a computer system without authority. There is no public interest exemption or defence to s252 Crimes Act. That is why we have laws governing search and surveillance. That is why we have section 21 of the Bill of Rights Act which states that everyone has the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure, whether of the person, property, or correspondence or otherwise. There isn’t a public interest exemption to section 21 of the Bill of Rights Act.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      7 October 2014 at 1:38 pm

                      And yet that “nefarious thing” is right there in the Evidence Act. Section 68.

                      Gosh, who to believe, some random bush lawyer or the actual legislation they’re gibbering about. Decisions, decisions…

                    • Tracey aka Rawshark …
                      7 October 2014 at 1:48 pm

                      Public interest is not nefarious. You can look to Acts including the evidence act and case law. The only people making it an airy fairy intangible are those who need to educate themselves more about it.

                      When collins leaked the personal information to slater of a public servant for whom she had no proof of a crime, on what basis was she doing it?

                • Tracey …
                  7 October 2014 at 12:30 pm

                  Can you remind on what date the police raide slaters home with one, let alone five, police officers to find who gave him blomfields information?

                • Jeeves POnzi …
                  8 October 2014 at 1:15 pm

                  What if they hack into an organised crime ring? A terrrorist organisation?Slave traffickers? Child abusers?

                  Should the public interest be ignored? The criminals let go, and the hacker prosecuted?

                  Good Grief! Charlie Brown.

            • Richard AKA RAWSHARK 4.1.1.1.1.3
              7 October 2014 at 5:38 pm

              If they wanted Rawshark and Hagar did commit a crime IE receiving, a judge could force him to reveal or face contempt of court.

              The fact they are hunting for him, with warrants make me think this is more politically driven than investigating a crime. They know he received them and receiving could be bought before a judge. A judge could demand anything really.

              So if you follow my thinking the police are not charging him, nor did they arrest him for questioning. They just ransacked his house looking for Rawshark

              We have the most dodgy government in my life. Period.

        • wekarawshark 4.1.1.2
          7 October 2014 at 9:59 am

          Are you talking legally or morally?

          If what Hager did was illegal, why aren’t the police prosecuting him?

          “So given a crime was committed, should receivers of stolen goods be investigated? Or only under certain circumstances or only certain individuals?”

          Yawn. Honestly, there’s been enough discussion about the legals on this to understand that Hager hasn’t committed a crime. Get over it.

        • mickysavage 4.1.1.3
          7 October 2014 at 10:03 am

          OK Berend

          What about the Matt Blomfield situation. Pretty well identical facts. Data is stolen from him and appears on Slater’s site. There is one distinction. A guy has been charged with going to Blomfield’s home and firing a shot at him. There is a possibility the two events are related. So you would think that the Police would be keen to investigate this as this particular incident is really serious.

          So do you think the Police should execute a search warrant on Slater’s place?

          • Tracey 4.1.1.3.1
            7 October 2014 at 12:32 pm

            Be fair, berens has probably already posted his outrage at slater not being raided, over at whaleoil. I am sure he will be able to post the link.

        • Pascals bookie 4.1.1.4
          7 October 2014 at 10:36 am

          “do you believe a crime was committed when Whaleoilā€™s emails and facebook messages were taken?”

          yep. looks like he was illegally hacked. That would be the crime. Hacking, which is not theft.

          “So given a crime was committed, should receivers of stolen goods be investigated? ‘”

          I guess so, but given no goods were stolen here it doesn’t seem to relate. Slater was hacked, not robbed.

          “An aggravating circumstance is that Nicky Hager clearly profited from stolen goods.”

          Do you think rawshark will be charged with theft?

        • Minarch 4.1.1.5
          7 October 2014 at 10:51 am

          Theres a BIG difference between knowing and proving Berend

          I have been the beneficiary of this fact a number of times so i speak with experience

          Having been arrested and charged with something i didn’t do and dragged through the courts for 2 years despite no ACTUAL evidence besides the word of an undercover cop who later “went on a long holiday overseas ” and was unavailable to make a statement under oath (wonder why !)

          • Berend de Boer 4.1.1.5.1
            7 October 2014 at 11:08 am

            Minarch: Having been arrested and charged with something i didnā€™t do and dragged through the courts for 2 years despite no ACTUAL evidence

            I fully agree there is a lot to be concerned about NZ police.

            What a pity Helen Clark abolished the privy council. Her worst decision.

            • minarch 4.1.1.5.1.1
              7 October 2014 at 11:17 am

              Its not just the NZ police force

              its how “the police” operate in general everywhere

              you know , the the ones who beat Rodney King, who gunned down Sean Bell and Amadou Diallo and Oscar Grant, who murdered Fred Hampton in his bed. The ones who broke VĆ­ctor Jaraā€™s hands and Steve Bikoā€™s skull, who disappeared dissidents from Argentina to Zaire, who served Josef Stalin. The ones who enforced Apartheid in South Africa and segregation in the United States.
              The ones who interrogated Black Panthers and Catholic Workers, who maintained records on 16 million people in East Germany, who track us through surveillance cameras and phone taps. The ones firing tear gas and rubber bullets whenever a demonstration gets out of hand, who back the bosses in every strike.

              The ones who stand between every hungry person and the grocery shelves stocked with food, between every homeless person and the buildings standing empty, between every immigrant and her family.

              The ones assaulting three Springbok Tour protesters dressed as clowns.

              you know the ones,

              “The Police”

              • left for dead …
                7 October 2014 at 12:29 pm

                %100 Minarch.Sad,but too true,bdb is soft trolling.

              • Murray Rawshark …
                7 October 2014 at 6:41 pm

                +1 minarch. Until a majority realises that, nothing will change. With extraordinary powers should come extraordinary repsonsibility. We get extraordinary coverups and extraordinary immunity instead.

                My thinking today is that, as well as intimidating everyone in general and Nicky in particular, ngati poaka and their NAct bosses are also keen to know what Nicky is now working on.

                • Anne …
                  7 October 2014 at 7:01 pm

                  …ngati poaka and their NAct bosses are also keen to know what Nicky is now working on.

                  Oh yes!!
                  They have much need to know what Nicky knows… and who has told him.

                  There’s a proverb just waiting to be used here, but I can’t think which one it is.

            • Jeeves POnzi 4.1.1.5.1.2
              8 October 2014 at 1:19 pm

              “What a pity Helen Clark abolished the privy council”

              She didn’t.
              It isn’t.

        • greywarbler 4.1.1.6
          7 October 2014 at 10:54 am

          @ Berend De Boer 9.55
          How can anybody enjoy such a book? Dirty Politics wasn’t fiction, and I don’t even enjoy fictional accounts of sleaze and skulduggery. and misfeasance but when the real story applies to the proper running of society, it can’t be ignored.

          It’s ‘intelligence’ for the people, not for the plotters and deal makers at the top,
          our ‘lower’ case gcsb (government caught in shitty behaviour).

        • Tracey 4.1.1.7
          7 October 2014 at 12:15 pm

          Have you posted at whaleoil your outrage that slater hasnt been raided by five cops to seize everything to find out who gavehim blomfields stuff?

          No comment on why tv3, apn and fairfax havent been similarly raided?

          Why the police have taken stuff unrelated to rawshark or dirty politics from a witness?

        • Foreign Waka 4.1.1.8
          7 October 2014 at 7:53 pm

          And there is the law of 2006 that postulates that journalists/authors who write about issues that are of public interest have to be able to do so in the interest of free press etc (someone out there got the complete wording please?). So really, Mr Hager, who is known for his investigative style and reporting on political machinations is actually covered under that law.
          Here are the real disappointing facts: 1/ the current government allows these steps to be taken and even the opposition is quiet 2/ the legal fraternity that ought to stand up in the interest of democracy and free speech is quiet.
          This leads to some unsettling conclusions, don’t you think?

    • timbo 4.2
      7 October 2014 at 9:52 am

      @Berend
      In criminal trials, illegally obtained evidence is not automatically inadmissible. There was a crime, but it hasn’t been committed by Nicky Hager.

      • Berend de Boer 4.2.1
        7 October 2014 at 9:57 am

        Nicky isn’t on trial. The police are simply looking for who did it. Not investigating Nicky Hager, even though he claims it’s pointless, would demonstrate a serious lack of thoroughness.

        And Nicky’s operational security might not be as good as he thinks, clearly Whaleoil thought he had better security than he actually had.

        • wekarawshark 4.2.1.1
          7 October 2014 at 10:04 am

          It’s more about how they’ve done it. Timing, amount of person hours, Hager’s absence during search, the scope of the materials they took that are irrelevant to the case but will contain Hager’s other projects, the fact that the three other journalists who’ve had contact with and received material from Rawshark haven’t been raided. Get it?

          • framu 4.2.1.1.1
            7 October 2014 at 10:08 am

            i dont think he does

            its really weird (/sarc) to see such staunch defenders of our right to not be told which light bulb to use go all weak at the knees as soon as the cops start carrying out politically motivated actions against journos

            • Berend de Boer 4.2.1.1.1.1
              7 October 2014 at 10:11 am

              The thing is though: does the journo defence hold?

              There was recently a case, apparently not precedent setting though, where a book author could not claim such a defence. So Nicky Hager’s situation is perhaps analogous??

              • wekarawshark …
                7 October 2014 at 10:13 am

                [citation needed]

              • wekarawshark …
                7 October 2014 at 10:15 am

                and you know what, stop wasting our time. You’ve said that the police had a right to search Hager’s work, I’ve pointed to all the things that demonstrate there is something else going on here re the police, and you’ve just ignored that. Are you going to do this kind of troling all day?

              • Pascals bookie …
                7 October 2014 at 10:37 am

                Probably not analogous. Compare the books.

              • lprent …
                7 October 2014 at 10:54 am

                You are talking about different acts. But I suspect that judgement will get overturned on the appeals that are proceeding in the courts at present. It was pretty suspect.

              • greywarshark …
                7 October 2014 at 12:23 pm

                Hasn’t Ncky Hager won the Bruce Jesson journalism award or was he just asked to deliver a lecture as a respected journalist? He apparently is so as he publishes joined up ideas on a theme, which are researched and sourced, with an ordered, and thoughtful intent.

                Not just opinion pieces that are slanted advertorials for the people who have the most money. And also the most money to gain from having a barrow that a tame blogger will push to the market, crying out…

                Good policies going cheap, use for doormats or to dry your dog with. Computers slightly used, with optional porn sites, fallen out the back of a police wagon. What am I offered.’

        • framu 4.2.1.2
          7 October 2014 at 10:06 am

          ” The police are simply looking for who did it”

          they are also looking to intimidate the entire hager family

          you show a stunning innocence regarding how and why the police do particular things to certain people

          plus WO is an idiot – thats why he thinks he had better security than he really did

          • Berend de Boer 4.2.1.2.1
            7 October 2014 at 10:16 am

            framu: they are also looking to intimidate the entire hager family

            That could well be. They could also be incompetent.

            I presume Nicky Hager can go to court to ask for a review of the police actions if he thinks he is treated outside the boundaries of what the law allows the police to do.

            • wekarawshark 4.2.1.2.1.1
              7 October 2014 at 10:28 am

              šŸ™„

            • lprent 4.2.1.2.1.2
              7 October 2014 at 10:49 am

              The problem is that there is no particular law on how long police can hold evidence while they are constructing a case. That is why it is one of their favourite harassment techniques. Similarly there is no particular bounds for what they can do on a search.

              A court registrar will have done the search warrant. It is very hard to get them overturned even when (as they invariably are) the supporting documents from the police are completely inadequate.

              I think that the best defence is to proceed with a civil suit against the officer who ordered the search for ALL damages.

              • Berend de Boer …
                7 October 2014 at 11:06 am

                lprent: I think that the best defence is to proceed with a civil suit against the officer who ordered the search for ALL damages.

                I’m interested in that. I think this could be crowd-funded easily.

              • Murray Rawshark …
                7 October 2014 at 6:49 pm

                Keeping your possessions on spurious grounds has long been a favourite police harassment technique. I had my motorbike impounded on a couple of occasions, when they claimed to be checking it for stolen parts. After a rough ride hanging from the back of a tow truck, they’d sit in central for as long as they could get away with it. Sometimes they’d take mechanics’ tools, claiming the were burglary implements. I got most of my stuff back fairly quickly by having lawyers threaten court action, but many people I knew never saw their possessions again.

                I hope Nicky has a complete list of what they took.

                • greywarshark …
                  7 October 2014 at 6:55 pm

                  @ Murray Rawshark 6.49
                  Do we need a Police Ombudsman, separate from our great police force?
                  What area did all this nefarious harrassment happen in, roughly in a third of one of the islands if you don’t want to be specific.

                  • Murray Rawshark …
                    7 October 2014 at 9:24 pm

                    Auckland.

                  • RedBaronCV …
                    7 October 2014 at 9:30 pm

                    We do have the police complaints authority and they are a complete waste of time as they intend to be

                    • greywarshark …
                      7 October 2014 at 9:33 pm

                      @ RedbaronCV
                      Mmm. That’s why i thought an Ombudsman. We want someone,as we have with the environment, who can be outside the circle.

            • minarch 4.2.1.2.1.3
              7 October 2014 at 10:55 am

              “I presume Nicky Hager can go to court to ask for a review of the police actions if he thinks he is treated outside the boundaries of what the law allows the police to do.”

              lol

              this shows your ignorance of how our police force ACTUALLY operates

              are you really naive enough to think something would actually be done about any illegal activity by the police ?

              The police are TRAINED to lie and deceive

            • framu 4.2.1.2.1.4
              7 October 2014 at 12:36 pm

              “That could well be. They could also be incompetent.”

              you show a stunning innocence regarding how and why the police do particular things to certain people

            • Foreign Waka 4.2.1.2.1.5
              7 October 2014 at 7:58 pm

              I just sincerely hope that burglaries gets the same man power, hours etc – you know the ones where the police doesn’t even bother to take a statement and in some cases say that they don’t have the man power!

        • lurgee 4.2.1.3
          7 October 2014 at 10:33 am

          Not investigating Nicky Hager, even though he claims itā€™s pointless, would demonstrate a serious lack of thoroughness.

          It would demonstrate a serious respect for the Evidence Act, which seems to be being interpreted rather too loosely. Hager will be damaged by this act; and potential sources may be discouraged. So 68.2 can not be applied. Hager is being compelled to give up information contrary to the provisions of the law.

        • lprent 4.2.1.4
          7 October 2014 at 10:59 am

          Whaleoil thought he had better security than he actually had.

          That is because Cameron is a blustering incompetent and a technical idiot… He has been hacked at least 3 times that I am sure of. Apparently he leaves gaping holes all over his systems and has done so for the last 7 years.

          Nicky isnā€™t on trial. The police are simply looking for who did it. Not investigating Nicky Hager, even though he claims itā€™s pointless, would demonstrate a serious lack of thoroughness.

          Typically that “thoroughness” will involve holding his gear and documents for 6 months to several years as possible evidence.

          Are you happy with that happening to you?

          • One Anonymous Bloke 4.2.1.4.1
            7 October 2014 at 11:01 am

            I’m happy for it to happen to him.

          • Berend de Boer 4.2.1.4.2
            7 October 2014 at 11:04 am

            lprent: Are you happy with that happening to you?

            I’m neither happy for Nicky to have done this to him, nor would I be happy if this would have happened to me.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 4.2.1.4.2.1
              7 October 2014 at 11:18 am

              Apart from your ignorant mistake of confusing a “receiver of stolen goods” and a journalist getting a copy of hacked messages, you mean?

              Asshole, anyone can see you defaming him as profiting from stolen goods, just up the page.

    • RedLogix 4.3
      7 October 2014 at 9:58 am

      Do you believe private property rights (pertaining to the emails) is an absolute right? That no other ‘public good’ considerations can ever trump them?

      And if so – on what legal basis do you think it’s ok for State Security apparatus to steal the emails and content of everyone else’s communications?

      • One Anonymous Bloke 4.3.1
        7 October 2014 at 10:02 am

        I’m picking, on the basis of cognitive dissonance.

      • Berend de Boer 4.3.2
        7 October 2014 at 10:14 am

        Our law recognises other public good considerations, and I agree with that. However, do you think the police should consider public good considerations before investigating a crime?

        • McFlock 4.3.2.1
          7 October 2014 at 11:32 am

          Yes, and theoretically they already do.

          What, you think every burglary gets an emergency response and full forensic team within the hour? No, they match the nature of the crime and likelihood of resolution against the available resources. Maximising the public good for resources expended. Not just resource constraints – smacking, for example.

    • framu 4.4
      7 October 2014 at 10:01 am

      let me guess – “he wrote a book using stolen emails” ? – thats where you heading isnt it

      why do you guys keep repeating the same dumb argument? – you might think it somehow gains merit with each repetition – but so far not one of you has advanced this idea beyond its first rebuttal – which kinda points to it being a less than adequate argument

      the communcations used had all personal and unrelated info stripped out before publishing to keep the expose on topic and illustrated a campaign of high level govt corruption, lies and intimidation.

      Which is the bigger issue here? – and if youve ever complained about nanny state (and im pretty certain you have) there is only one answer that you can give – and we all know what that answer is.

      How have we treated journos who have exposed govt corruption this way in the past? As criminals or as journalists attempting to hold the powerful to account?

      many journalist throughout history have used materials obtained in less than legal matters – are they all criminals?

      (if your not heading down this road – apologies – but it bloody looks that way)

      • Berend de Boer 4.4.1
        7 October 2014 at 10:13 am

        framu: the communcations used had all personal and unrelated info stripped out before publishing

        Not sure, is Nicky Hager the final arbiter of what is personal and unrelated info? You’ll probably find that in the real world, the final arbiter may be the judge. But in the mean time the stuff has been published.

        Nicky did a pretty good job here, but it wasn’t perfect.

        • framu 4.4.1.1
          7 October 2014 at 12:10 pm

          wow – your putting in an aweful lot of effort to play semantics and split hairs arent you

          but you dont seem that interested in what anyones saying to you – theres that alarmingly obvious tactic of avoiding the substance of a question or reply to focus on minor points

          stop wasting peoples time

    • Rawsharkosaurus 4.5
      7 October 2014 at 6:28 pm

      Do you believe a crime was committed when blubber boy and his mates hacked into the Labour Party database and made off with credit card numbers, etc.?

  5. Chris 5
    7 October 2014 at 9:47 am

    So will the police now raid Slater’s house looking for information that will show who ripped into Blomfield’s computer?

    Hager’s a journalist, didn’t steal the emails himself, has a motive clearly consistent with public interest principles and has made it clear he’s not going to publish personal information that’s not in the public interest. Compare this with the position Slater’s in and the cops raid Hager and not Slater?

  6. Not RNZ 6
    7 October 2014 at 9:47 am

    Note, on RNZ there was no mention in the 08:00-9:30 spot of Nikki Hagar.

    They seem to be scripted to support surveillance……..

    Hummmmm, who is the news editorial team, the same lot that did the election?

  7. Melanie Scott 7
    7 October 2014 at 9:55 am

    I am Rawshark.

  8. greywarbler 8
    7 October 2014 at 10:11 am

    What’s the difference between ours and Fiji’s police and governmental processes?
    At the present, how can we help Hager?

    Our police have not been held to an appropriate legal standard for some time. Individuals perhaps. The system no. And I don’t see them as genuinely decent people any more. Community constables can be great men and women, but once in the detective group, or the area involved with complex business, politics, and drugs policing means a moral hazard, their heads get into a different space altogether. And their chiefs are probably target driven not service to the people driven.

    If we have a change of government how can we arrest this decline? Policing with honour and restraint might be a slogan we would want adopted. Would that say it all in a few words.

    Now our police have worked for the USA and abandoned NZ laws once, co-operated with the Australian police in occasional halt and identify and search vehicle raids, do they have a real sense of being NZ citizens helping to keep our society a good secure and peaceful place of as much freedom as possible but where all are treated fairly? They seem now to have the power to impose themselves on citizens without request, warrant or a crisis, and impose martial law at will as in Christchurch and Pike River. Are the police a force unto themselves?

  9. Puckish Rogue 9
    7 October 2014 at 10:17 am

    So Hager receives stolen emails, the police try to track down who stole them by searching the guy who recieved them and this is harrassment

    I know the left think Hager is without sin and his book is gospel but harrassment?

    • wekarawshark 9.1
      7 October 2014 at 10:29 am

      You’re not really paying attention are you.

      • NeutObserver 9.1.1
        7 October 2014 at 10:34 am

        I am paying attention. Please explain why the handling of stolen goods is acceptable, if done by Hager?

        • wekarawshark 9.1.1.1
          7 October 2014 at 10:39 am

          PR’s comment was challenging the idea that the raid was harrassment of Hager. That’s been covered already in posts and comments on ts in the last 24 hours. PR obviously didn’t bother reading any of that, or was making a disingenuous comment.

          Likewise, Hager’s legal right as a journalist to use the material has been established and written about and commented on a lot since DP came out. I’d suggest using the Nicky Hager tag at the top of this post if you want to know the ins and outs. Public Address is also a good place to look if you want more in depth on the legals.

          I don’t know if you are new here, but people who run the same tired old lines without bothering to put an effort into their arguments soon get treated like a trole.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 9.1.1.2
          7 October 2014 at 10:44 am

          As Pascal’s Bookie asks above: do you think Rawshark will be charged with theft?

          Go read the comment.

          The law: not what Right Wing Nut Jobs think it is. Discuss.

        • framu 9.1.1.3
          7 October 2014 at 12:13 pm

          please expalin why your yet another loud mouth using the exact same argument that has been used repeatedly for months now

          just how many times does the idea of exposing govt corruption and public interest be explained to you?

        • politikiwi 9.1.1.4
          7 October 2014 at 2:35 pm

          ” Please explain why the handling of stolen goods is acceptable, if done by Hager?”

          Please explain why the police have (effectively) confiscated Hager’s livelihood, while Cameron Slater can publish stolen material on his blog without similar treatment?

        • miravox 9.1.1.5
          7 October 2014 at 3:44 pm

          Please explain which ‘goods’ were ‘stolen’.

          iirc Slater still has the bits and bytes in question.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 9.1.1.5.1
            7 October 2014 at 5:53 pm

            Don’t forget the allegation that Slater also received Blomfield’s stolen hardware, as well as breaches of privacy law (with no “journalism” defence) and publishing defamatory statements.

            Then there’s his admitted theft of NZLP membership credit card details, and who he works for.

        • Richard AKA RAWSHARK 9.1.1.6
          7 October 2014 at 5:51 pm

          Neutobservers to lazy to read replies on that same question that gets answered daily. In fact above him.

          I can see lprent shortly banning his ass for dumbness.

        • Foreign Waka 9.1.1.7
          7 October 2014 at 8:16 pm

          @ Puckish Rogue – Evidence Act 2006 /68. Read it.
          It is already so that the reporters of trivia (reporters?) are not able and ready to investigate any irregularities. NZ needs all the Hager’s it can get. Its called checks and balances. Good exercise in a democracy.

    • lprent 9.2
      7 October 2014 at 10:46 am

      The police took away his work tools because they “may” have evidence on them.

      If they follow their usual harassment procedures they will hold them for between 6 months and 2 years as “evidence”, then they will abandon the case, returning them full of viruses and malware because they seem to use them for looking at porn sites.

      At least that is what I have seen in several cases.

      You’re ok with that? That figures. You do seem to be a bit of a jerkoff.

      • Berend de Boer 9.2.1
        7 October 2014 at 11:02 am

        lprent: The police took away his work tools because they ā€œmayā€ have evidence on them.

        I think there are several points here. I agree with your grave concerns how the police tends to work in this cases. Everyone who uses a computer for a living can be, at any moment, be the recipient of police action, who basically takes away their means of making a living. There are few other similar occupations where that happens.

        1. Should the police be allowed to take IT equipment? I’m in favour of a law change that says no, you are only allowed to take a forensically accurate copy.

        2. Even if we allow them to take our tools, what’s a reasonable period? You think the period should be shorter?

        3. Police should be liable for damages.

        See above, I’m really interested to see a law change here.

        • Richard AKA RAWSHARK 9.2.1.1
          7 October 2014 at 5:53 pm

          So a pedophile gets to keep his computers they would just ghost the drives.

          NAH.

          • Murray Rawshark 9.2.1.1.1
            7 October 2014 at 7:09 pm

            If they found kiddy porn on a computer, they would most probably arrest the owner and take the computer as evidence. This is not the case with Nicky. He is not a suspect and what they want to look at is presumably the information on his computer, not the actual hardware.

            • lprent 9.2.1.1.1.1
              7 October 2014 at 7:16 pm

              Nope. They will take the computers, ipods, memory sticks, in fact anything.

              That is what they do when they are taking data from anywhere that they think they can get away with it.

              They will then hold the hardware as “evidence” for as long as possible because it allows them to have a extra-legal punishment.

              • Murray Rawshark …
                7 October 2014 at 9:31 pm

                I’m not sure what the nope is for. I was trying (clumsily) that there are no evidential grounds for taking all of Nicky’s stuff. I know what they actually did, and do. I often wondered what the inside of a vice or drug squad detective’s house must look like, given the number of things that were never returned.

      • King Kong 9.2.2
        7 October 2014 at 11:08 am

        Those are some pretty serious allegations. Don’t guess you have any proof of that.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 9.2.2.1
          7 October 2014 at 11:14 am

          Oh look, King Kong suddenly getting all precious about due process and the need for evidence.

          What a snivelling hypocrite.

        • Berend de Boer 9.2.2.2
          7 October 2014 at 11:16 am

          King Kong, the Dotcom case is a well-known example. His business is gone, his equipment seized.

          When do you think Nicky gets his computer back? Next week? Next month? Next year?

          • minarch 9.2.2.2.1
            7 October 2014 at 11:29 am

            the trick is to ring (preferably your angry wife/girlfriend as big Macho Police men seem to have real problems dealing with assertive women ) EVERY DAY demanding your things back, pick one officer and make them responsible, call the and harass the EVERY DAY, make it such a shassle for that one person to have to deal with you (or the MRS ) ranting at them every day they fold and return your things

            this has actually worked for me my wife called the same officer DAILY until our computer was returned

            In my circumstances the cops did some bad stuff

            like take photos of mine and my families passports, which were then released as “disclosure” to everybody else involved in the case , these are people the police claimed were part of an organized crime ring…

            when asked why this has happened the police stated “gee sorry it was a “mistake” but surely now you will want to co-operate and put these “dangerous people” away so they cant use the information WE gave them against you…

            This was after they threatened to shoot my “dangerous” dog ( a 10 year old Labrador ) if they had to enter my home without my consent , no warrant at this stage, it “mysteriously” appeared (post dated of course) at one of my hearings

            sickening really…

            • Anne 9.2.2.2.1.1
              7 October 2014 at 12:14 pm

              You’ve got a story to tell minarch.

              Perhaps we need a special place where all the stories can be told.

              • minarch …
                7 October 2014 at 12:31 pm

                my wife all most failed her degree due tot he seizure of our PC

                my alleged “crime” wasn’t even computer related the police were just fishing as they new they had no actual evidence

                so I know how Nicky feels !

          • King Kong 9.2.2.2.2
            7 October 2014 at 11:32 am

            Have they been watching porn on Dotcoms stuff and deliberately infecting it with malware as well?

            Apparently it took ages for David Bain to get his rifle back.

    • Tracey 9.3
      7 October 2014 at 12:38 pm

      Remind which date the police raide slaters home and office to identify the person who stile stuff from blomfield and gave it to slater?

  10. karol 10
    7 October 2014 at 10:23 am

    Also a very good comment on the Hager search by Gordon Campbell.

    That 10 hour search was really about intimidating journalists (and anyone who co-operates with them) if their work happens to embarrass the government. A message is being sent by those in power. Your home will be searched, your personal effects and business files will be rummaged through, your belongings will be seized, and your ability to do your work will be sabotaged. Why? Because they can.

  11. Jrobin 11
    7 October 2014 at 10:32 am

    Kathryn Ryan is going to report on Nicky’s situation though. RNZ changed fundamentally when the changes of staff were made. Though Espiner is sometimes doing a good job there is now an overwhelming bias towards the govt line during Morning Report and Checkpoint. It is the framing of the issues that have changed. Hard Right new government using this crucial means of control of the message. Look at the report on changes to the Public Service published in herald. Just read it …..privatisation by pretence at client choice, use of IT to target resources and undermining of institutional knowledge and career security. Classic hard right tactics to reduce taxes on the wealthy by cutting public services and supported by a tame media and intimidation of opponents. Reminiscent of other hard right control societies.Luckily there are blogs, but this is getting seriously undemocratic.

  12. Craig Y 12
    7 October 2014 at 10:34 am

    Which will effectively martyr Nicky and may result in a blowback/backlash situation for the Nats…? Wonder if Cam Slater has thought this through and if there’s any pressure on him to relent?

  13. Craig Y 13
    7 October 2014 at 10:37 am

    And sometimes, we have to be as bloodyminded and give no quarter as they have. I’ve had to read the Copyright Act to fundies who ignore the (C) on articles that I’ve done on Gaynz.Com which were then reproduced in full by them. And don’t forget defamation law. We need to be a little less queasy about defending ourselves from aggression in the courts if necessary.

    • Tracey 13.1
      7 October 2014 at 12:42 pm

      Its expensive. I have let go a defamation action which has wrecked my reputation and my business because i cant afford to fight the lawyer who defamed me. I have proof. I have witnesses… But that lawyer has done it before and will do it again… So it doesnt just take courage it takes money.

  14. Anne 14
    7 October 2014 at 10:45 am

    There is a need for some further in-depth detective work here.

    We need to identify the senior police personnel involved in the raid and what their connections may be to other significant individuals. Whether there were instructions relayed from higher sources to make an example of Hagar. Are their personal careers at stake if anyone dare’s speak out and if so… who exactly are in the firing line? Time-lines to help piece the jigsaw together and any other pertinent sources of information.

    I, for one, can’t stand idly by and do nothing. It’s too serious. For starters, I’m more than willing to write some robust letters but I need to know the names of the senior personnel involved.

    • Anne 14.1
      7 October 2014 at 10:58 am

      Would someone like to advise me why I keep going into moderation? It’s been happening for a day or two now.

  15. Dont worry. Be happy 15
    7 October 2014 at 10:48 am

    The middle class from time to time have a glimpse behind the masks of The Force (the framing of Arthur Allan Thomas, the brutality of the Springbok Tour and now, the deliberate intimidation of a journalist who has seriously damaged those in power) and are rightly horrified and disgusted. The poor however are not surprised.

    • greywarbler 15.1
      7 October 2014 at 11:08 am

      @ Dont worry. Be happy 10.48
      Hi I have been looking for you to try and get some info from you. Someone I know wants to have further information on the fatal parasite in North Island cows you mentioned on 26 September. It would be appreciated if you would give us the name and/or a link where we can gather more info. Thanks.

      Copy of my earlier request. @ Dont worry. Be happy. 26/9 26
      Can you give a link or source where I can get more information about the North Island cows affected by a fatal parasite. I would like to find out more about this parasite in detail. Where did you find out about it? If you can give this info Iā€™d appreciate it very much.

      • Jenny Kirk 15.1.1
        7 October 2014 at 4:46 pm

        It was in The Farmer News, (Stuff) Greywarbler – 17 Sept or thereabouts. There have been one or two follow-ups. Not much though. Here’s the link

        http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/sheep/10506863/Swede-poisoning-fears-spread-to-sheep

        • greywarshark 15.1.1.1
          7 October 2014 at 7:02 pm

          @ Jenny Kirk 4.46
          Thanks very much. It actually wasn’t the swede or beet episode I feel. I looked up and found some info about some protozo.. something in the North Island that causes cows to abort and can be quite bad. Also can be passed on to the young if the cow doesn’t abort. It is not a killer as Dont worry mentioned but I would just like more detail if he knew more than just the goss. Unfortunately he bounces in, puts in his 1 cent, and then leaves. One cents are not very useful.

          If you want to know more yourself I can sort out the link for you covering what I discovered.

        • GregJ 15.1.1.2
          7 October 2014 at 8:52 pm

          Actually Jenny that is a link to Swede poisoning in the South Island (Southland) not parasites (although it is a real concern in that area).

          I think this is the one that “@Dont worry.Be happy” is referring to

          http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/rural/236852/parasite-hits-473-north-island-farms

          • greywarshark 15.1.1.2.1
            7 October 2014 at 10:28 pm

            @ GregJ 8.52
            Thanks for the helpful tip. That is just the piece that was wanted.

  16. greywarshark 16
    7 October 2014 at 11:33 am

    I think we are going toward the era where this quote was formed

    Martin Niemƶller is perhaps best remembered for the quotation:
    First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak outā€”
    Because I was not a Socialist.

    Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak outā€”
    Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak outā€”
    Because I was not a Jew.

    Then they came for meā€”and there was no one left to speak for me.

    Martin Niemƶller (1892ā€“1984) was a prominent Protestant pastor who emerged as an outspoken public foe of Adolf Hitler and spent the last seven years of Nazi rule in concentration camps…..
    his point was that Germansā€”in particular, he believed, the leaders of the Protestant churchesā€”had been complicit through their silence in the Nazi imprisonment, persecution, and murder of millions of people.
    Only in 1963, in a West German television interview, did Niemƶller acknowledge and make a statement of regret about his own antisemitism (see Gerlach, 2000, p. 47). Nonetheless, Martin Niemƶller was one of the earliest Germans to talk publicly about broader complicity in the Holocaust and guilt for what had happened to the Jews.

    He looks a very nice person, one to be honoured for his honesty.
    http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007392

    • cogito 16.1
      7 October 2014 at 12:09 pm

      Great quote.

      The day that kiwis pay more attention to history than to the snapper quota will be the day that we get rid of Herr Key.

    • Colonial Viper 16.2
      7 October 2014 at 12:12 pm

      Chris Hedges has also written about how a casual, passive careerism at the functionary/employee level enabled the Nazi machine to get rolling.

      I always find the US example extremely instructive. They are roughly 15 years further down the track of where all this shite is going. Chris Hedges has just written an article which describes what is currently happening to a ‘defense lawyer’ Stanley Cohen who consistently opposes US Govt actions.

      The use of the courts to erode our civil liberties, as well as expand the ability of the state and corporations to commit fraud and other crimes with impunity, has been accompanied by a campaign to silence the handful of activist attorneys who defend those demonized by the government…Stanley L. Cohen is now on the list. When lawyers who defend the unpopular must suffer severe punishment at the hand of the government, the judiciary is a farce.

      and

      Assistant U.S. Attorney Gordon Kromberg, who has carried out witch hunts against numerous Muslim activists including Dr. Sami Al Arian, has joked about a suspect undergoing torture…There is said to be a picture hanging in Krombergā€™s office showing Cohen with two of his clients who were later assassinated. Reportedly, each client has an X marked on his face and Cohenā€™s face is marked with a circle.

      and

      We have lost judge after judge that was willing to hear counterarguments. These judges have been replaced with former Wall Street lawyers, political hacks, those who are owed political favors or those who benefit from political patronage. These [newer] judges played the game. They sold their souls years ago. And justice is not really their concern. You go up against them and you hear the echo chamber of the state.ā€

      The corruption of the law to advance the interests of a corporate elite requires harsher and harsher measures to check a restive population. This misuse of the courts characterizes despotic rule. Radicals have long understood that the function of the courts in a closed society is to thwart justice. And to counter this judicial despotism we must not only be alienated from power but antagonistic to power. Cohen has exemplified this antagonism.

      http://www.truthdig.com/report/page2/justice_as_farce_20141005

      • greywarshark 16.2.1
        7 October 2014 at 12:37 pm

        @ Colonial viper
        Thanks for that. I remember Aaron Swartz and the hanging judge response to the charges he was facing by the Hispanic woman in that position who sees herself as an avenging angel or something. She has made good separate from those other Hispanic poor peons.

        I have looked at how the USA chooses supreme court judges and it isn’t encouraging. And then there are the free golf weekends and conferences put on for the judiciary in various states by wealthy corporates where they can all get together cosily and collegiate.

  17. cogito 17
    7 October 2014 at 12:05 pm

    Hager is an inspiration.

    The day that more kiwis are prepared to go to prison rather than submit to the encroaching police state that are Key and his henchmen, the sooner we will restore real democracy to NZ.

    It was only weeks after the last election that Key and his US masters stormed the Dotcom mansion, and now it is only days after this year’s election that he gets his paid heavies to storm Hager’s home. Getting to be a habit with Herr Key.

    • Colonial Viper 17.1
      7 October 2014 at 12:35 pm

      That’s just the way the whole FVEY neighbourhood is going now.

    • Puckish Rogue 17.2
      7 October 2014 at 12:41 pm

      Don’t feel so bad for Hager, he recieved stolen emails and made some nice coin putting a book together from them

      [lprent: That is an assertion of a fact. Prove it. You are on probation until you do. ]

      • Tracey 17.2.1
        7 October 2014 at 12:44 pm

        So have sst, hearld and tv3… No raids there though…..

        • Puckish Rogue 17.2.1.1
          7 October 2014 at 12:49 pm

          I’d very much like to see them get raided as well and if Cameron Slater stole that crooked businessmens emails then he should get raided as well

          • Tracey aka Rawshark 17.2.1.1.1
            7 October 2014 at 1:51 pm

            You understand that neither slater nor hager stole anything, dont you?

            • Puckish Rogue 17.2.1.1.1.1
              7 October 2014 at 3:38 pm

              Fine then substitute receiving for stolen then, the point still stands

              • Pascals bookie …
                7 October 2014 at 4:40 pm

                Not stolen. hacked. Cameron received that actual hard drives and filing cabinets of that other guy. see the diff?

      • Puckish Rogue 17.2.2
        7 October 2014 at 12:58 pm

        He didn’t get paid for his book?

        • minarch 17.2.2.1
          7 October 2014 at 1:54 pm

          cmon puck

          does Nicky Hagar look like a wealthy man

          you can do better than that…………

          • Puckish Rogue 17.2.2.1.1
            7 October 2014 at 3:46 pm

            So the publishers published it out of the goodness of their hearts? Assuming they thought they might make some money out of it its ususally the done thing to pay people for their work

            Does it matter whether hes wealthy or not? I’m guessing hes better off then you think but that aside i’m sure he got paid for his work, his work based around stolen emails

            [lprent: Why do you think Hager is better off? Why do you think that he has made money off the book?

            These are all things that would be easy enough to say about anyone. The difference is that you are offering absolutely nothing to support it. For instance you appear to be a career paedophile… for all anyone knows. Is that correct? See that is also an unsupported statement.

            Ok – enough assertions I’m tired of you simply smearing without proof after being warned. Banned 8 weeks.

            Next person will get double and I will keep doubling until the idiots from the right start working within moral and legal bounds. There has been far too much trolling here in the last couple of days. ]

            • Puckish Rogue 17.2.2.1.1.1
              7 October 2014 at 4:28 pm

              He has a media profile, hes had a number of books published so I think its fair to say hes not doing badly

              Besides I didn’t say he was wealthy merely better off then minarch thinks

              [lprent: In other words you have absolutely no idea, you are simply making stuff up, more commonly known as malevolently lying. Assertions with no basis in fact.

              People doing that leave this site vulnerable to legal suits for defamation.

              If it was about a politician, then we’d have a certain amount of protection because of Lange vs Anderson. Against a private citizen, virtually none. So you don’t get to comment here for a while. If I see you doing it again, then this site will be off limits to you. ]

              • Richard AKA RAWSHARK …
                7 October 2014 at 6:00 pm

                Lprent,

                not having a go but I have to query this

                If you hack emails, isn’t that stealing them. Is hacking a special crime or something.

                I thought it was theft,(Rawshark) and that it was in the public interest to print them, so Hagar gets a pass for receiving?

                Simplified a lot.

                • Pascals bookie …
                  7 October 2014 at 8:25 pm

                  If you hack emails, isnā€™t that stealing them.

                  No, hacking is gaining access to a computer illegally, copying files isn’t stealing because the owner still has them. Compare stealing the computer to hacking into it and copying the files.

                  Is hacking a special crime or something.

                  yep. It’s not atrivial crime either, rawshark said in his final tweets that he was aware he was facing up to 7 years for what he did. But it’s not the same crime as theft, and that matters because passing information to someone is not the same as giving someone something you stole. The person who was hacked still has their copy. You haven’t taken anything off them, you have revealed a secret and breached their privacy.

                  • Richard AKA RAWSHARK …
                    7 October 2014 at 8:41 pm

                    @PB

                    Of course, didn’t spot that angle, from someone who professes to be clever, my talents must not lie in thinking outside the box.

                    Cheers mate.

                • Foreign Waka …
                  7 October 2014 at 8:33 pm

                  By extension, Nixon would have seen another term….

              • Rodel …
                7 October 2014 at 7:45 pm

                I usually try to skim over the trolly rubbish of PR. Thanks to LP I have 8 weeks of concentrating on the more meaningful comments (trolls included). Thanks.
                Arrggghhh Postscript- It’s still here.

              • minshark …
                8 October 2014 at 12:19 pm

                you made that too easy for me puck

                your slipping . get some rest come back and try again…..

                rookie

  18. tsmithfield 18
    7 October 2014 at 12:23 pm

    Seems to me that much of the comment here is predicated on the “greater good” argument. On that basis, then I guess that many here would be calling for a few real life “Dexters. šŸ™‚

    • Pascals bookie 18.1
      7 October 2014 at 12:25 pm

      wut? Is there a defence in the law against murder that’s a bit like journalistic freedoms?

      Fuck you’re weird.

      • tsmithfield 18.1.1
        7 October 2014 at 12:58 pm

        I guess whether or not he is a journalist in this case could turn on whether he behaved like a real journalist or not in this case.

        For instance, as far as I am aware, real journalists will usually check with the originator of the material to get their perspective on the material to be published. If his intention was real journalism rather than a political hit job, then he would have included examples from the left side of the spectrum of which plenty abound (e.g. H-fee, Green activists being proven to damage National billboards in the previous election etc).

        In the end, it will be up to the courts to decide whether Hager is a real journalist or not. That shouldn’t impinge on the rights of the police to do their job in investigating a crime. It is not up to them to decide on the philosophical merits of the action IMO.

        So, if Hagar isn’t actually a journalist in this situation, then all that is left is a greater good argument. As in the rather extreme “Dexter” series this sort of argument can lead to all sorts of interesting outcomes.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 18.1.1.1
          7 October 2014 at 1:51 pm

          šŸ˜† your pretence of equivalence says something about you and nothing whatsoever about reality.

          It’s sickening, the way sycophantic fuckers like you suck shit directly from the National Party’s colon, then quail in horror at your made up scandals.

          Fuck off.

        • Tracey aka Rawshark 18.1.1.2
          7 October 2014 at 1:54 pm

          That you think damaging billboards is dirty politics you obviously havent read the book or the emails released by rawshark.

          What is your take on the police,

          A. Waiting so long to raid hager?
          B. Not raiding slater following a complaint to them by blomfield about his hard drive being stolen, and slater having stuff from the harddrive

          • tsmithfield 18.1.1.2.1
            7 October 2014 at 3:58 pm

            Probably the implications of someone having the willingness to hack other sites are a bit more serious. If the police did nothing it could be open slather with all sorts of nasty consequences.

            • Colonial Rawshark 18.1.1.2.1.1
              7 October 2014 at 4:07 pm

              Yeah nasty unwanted consequences like investigative journalists feeling free to analyse and publish materials in teh public interest.

        • Kaplan 18.1.1.3
          7 October 2014 at 3:51 pm

          “as far as I am aware”
          And that’s right where your argument falls over…

          • tsmithfield 18.1.1.3.1
            7 October 2014 at 4:05 pm

            I think I am right according to the American Press institute.

            From their guidelines:

            This ā€œjournalistic truthā€ is a process that begins with the professional discipline of assembling and verifying facts. Then journalists try to convey a fair and reliable account of their meaning, subject to further investigation.

            Because Hagar didn’t bother going back to the original sources for verification and comment it can’t be said that he was professional or fair. Hence his book wasn’t journalism.

            [lprent: You do not need to go back to “original sources” for verification and comment. It is not required for journalism. After all Whaleoil is a ‘journalist’ and he has never done them. You will provide proof that these are requirements for a journalist, or retract, or get a ban for an unsupported assertion. ]

            • Pascals bookie 18.1.1.3.1.1
              7 October 2014 at 4:38 pm

              The facts he was reporting on were the emails and conversations. the weren’t fake, facts established.

              If Slater was lying in his emails, then he is of course free to say so, and he has. Balance restored. But Slater saying ‘I was lying’ doesn’t actually change the facts of the emails, they are just a claim about the emails. Whether or not he was lying is a judgement call people have to make.

    • framu 18.2
      7 October 2014 at 12:28 pm

      because writing a book about govt corruption is exactly the same thing as killing people

      seems to me your just another big state authoritarian apologist – who likes to say really dumb things

    • Tracey 18.3
      7 October 2014 at 12:45 pm

      Dickhead

      [lprent: why? This comment appears to be pointless. ]

      • Tracey aka Rawshark 18.3.1
        7 October 2014 at 1:56 pm

        It was shorter than pointing out his ridiculous comparison to murder and the invention of greater good when people have bedn discussing the legal concept of “public good” and consistency across police investigations and priorities.

      • CnrJoeIsrawshark 18.3.2
        7 October 2014 at 2:05 pm

        pointless? in reply to tsmithfield @ 18? on point rather

    • minarch 18.4
      7 October 2014 at 12:49 pm

      “Seems to me that much of the comment here is predicated on the ā€œgreater goodā€ argument. On that basis, then I guess that many here would be calling for a few real life ā€œDexters. ”

      good god that wasnt even wrong it was so stupid…

      i give you a 1/10

      try harder next time troll…

  19. greywarshark 19
    7 October 2014 at 12:31 pm

    @ tsmithfield 18
    Don’t try and associate us with something nasty that has come out the sediment of your mind. You are no friend to truth and justice which is what our thoughts are predicated on. Go and wash your mouth out with soap. And your back orifice along with King Kong who has similar problems.

    • Tracey aka Rawshark 19.1
      7 October 2014 at 12:52 pm

      Well said

    • Puckish Rogue 19.2
      7 October 2014 at 12:56 pm

      Oh get real, Hager is getting searched because hes the closet link there is to the cowardly scum that stole the emails so of course hes going to get searched

      He didn’t mind unlawfully breaching Slaters privacy so he shouldn’t mind his lawful breach of privacy

      • framu 19.2.1
        7 October 2014 at 1:37 pm

        big govt authoritarian apologist

      • Jonathan 19.2.2
        7 October 2014 at 1:48 pm

        Slater is hardly an innocent victim receiving things that are not his and then using the information therein to publish critical stories.

        The difference is that Slaters wasn’t even remotely in the public interest.
        Hagers was as it involved the tactics of the then current and now sitting government. The public had every right to know what characters withing the government and acting in concert with them were doing.

      • Tracey aka Rawshark 19.2.3
        7 October 2014 at 1:58 pm

        You read WO, can you tel me what date slaters home and office were raided to get the identity of the person who gave him stolen info of blomfield?

      • minarch 19.2.4
        7 October 2014 at 2:15 pm

        “the cowardly scum that stole the emails”

        how does one steal e-mails in less cowardly manner ?

        kick the front door after setting of some fireworks in the front garden and run out with the hardrive, after leaving a business card of course ?

        • Puckish Rogue 19.2.4.1
          7 October 2014 at 3:30 pm

          Yeah true, I meant cowardly in that they’re staying anonymous not so much that stealing emails is cowardly

          • minarch 19.2.4.1.1
            7 October 2014 at 4:08 pm

            by default don’t most “criminals” prefer to remain undetected ?

            Im assuming you walk straight down to the police station and confess every time you break the law ?

          • Pascals bookie 19.2.4.1.2
            7 October 2014 at 4:34 pm

            Your mother called you Puckish did she, Mr Rogue?

  20. Tracey aka Rawshark 20
    7 October 2014 at 12:46 pm

    God save us from the regions of govt supporters who cannot undertake simple comprehension…

    • Richard AKA RAWSHARK 20.1
      7 October 2014 at 6:10 pm

      Tracey they are cult members, Ever tried talking truth to a cult member.

      They cults always prey on the dumb asses for members. The cult has a very charismatic leader. They are very dumb and It’s going to take a lot of work.

  21. music4menz 21
    7 October 2014 at 12:55 pm

    Sorry to point this out but Nicky Hager’s ‘Dirty Politics’ backfired onto Labour, the Greens and IMP and contributed to John Key’s return to power. Most NZers had no sympathy with Hager then and will have no sympathy with Hager now. They will see that the police are just doing their job. A complaint has been made with the police and it is their responsibility to follow up on that complaint if they feel that the law has been broken. Simple really.

    • framu 21.1
      7 October 2014 at 1:36 pm

      yes – so simple youve ignored every single point made on the subject

      • Tracey aka Rawshark 21.1.1
        7 October 2014 at 1:59 pm

        Plus 1

      • wekarawshark 21.1.2
        7 October 2014 at 3:01 pm

        lolz.

        I always love how people claim to know what most NZers think.

        • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 21.1.2.1
          7 October 2014 at 3:35 pm

          Those are lines being pushed out right now.

          I have just got back from a lunch event and heard those kinds of unthinking and hearsay nonsense being regurgitated.

          Through a series of questions that I raised politely and pleasantly, it turned out that those repeating those lines did not really know why they said them nor did they have any basis for making such types of statements.

          This is a worry. There needs to be counter-responses and proactive dissemination of the actual facts.

          • Colonial Rawshark 21.1.2.1.1
            7 October 2014 at 4:18 pm

            I have just got back from a lunch event and heard those kinds of unthinking and hearsay nonsense being regurgitated.

            People love sounding informed. They hate to sound like they are not up with the play. No one wants to be disagreeable or contrarian. And in general, people are lazy thinkers.

            So they parrot what they hear and nod and smile knowingly, backslapping each other and agreeing that they are all so smart and on the ball.

          • wekarawshark 21.1.2.1.2
            7 October 2014 at 6:33 pm

            “Kiwiri – Raided of the Last Shark”

            Lolz, ha ha ha, best name change so far šŸ˜€

        • music4menz 21.1.2.2
          7 October 2014 at 4:23 pm

          Well, we know that more NZers supported John Key and the National government than any other political party in the election. That gives me a pretty good idea what they thought of Mr Hagerand his allegations!

          • One Anonymous Bloke 21.1.2.2.1
            7 October 2014 at 5:10 pm

            The party preferences of 28% of the electorate say what about the law in your mind?

          • framu 21.1.2.2.2
            8 October 2014 at 7:54 am

            yes because elections are single issue things arent they

            christ – you give trools a bad name with these idiot arguments

        • Richard AKA RAWSHARK 21.1.2.3
          7 October 2014 at 6:11 pm

          @ Wekarawshark

          48% of kiwi’s don’t think. I think.

    • NeutObserver 21.2
      7 October 2014 at 3:05 pm

      It did. Backfired badly on the Greens and Internet Mana, which were percieved to be behind Mr Hager. Unfortunately, Labour got its share of damage by association.

    • Murray Rawshark 21.3
      7 October 2014 at 9:53 pm

      So what? I don’t poll focus groups before I decide what I think is important. I think intimidation of a journalist for political motives is something I should be concerned about. Independent thinking may be a novelty for you, but try it. It only hurts the first few times,

  22. Pat O'Dea 22
    7 October 2014 at 1:09 pm

    Freedom for Rawshark

    Long Live Rawshark, long may Rawshark be free from the attempts of the corrupt agents of darkness and dirty politics to catch her.

    They seek her here, they seek her there…..

    “Dirty Politics author Nicky Hager has had his home raided by police searching for the hacker Rawshark.

    In a 10-hour search of his house, Hager said computers and papers were seized in what appeared to be an attempt to discover the identity of the person who provided information used in the Dirty Politics book.”
    “Dirty Politics: Police raid Nicky Hager’s home”
    Senior Reporter David Fisher NZ Herald, October 7, 2014

    What is Senior NZ Herald reporter David Fisher telling us?

    What he is telling us is this:

    The GCSB and their NSA allies and all their highly charged turbo powered cyber war experts…..,

    Despite full spectrum dominance of the internet and phone systems….,

    Despite all their state of the art spyware….,

    Despite all the supercomputer number crunching code breaking that money can buy….,

    Despite being able to access the meta data of every single person in the country (and the planet)….’

    Despite all their illegal bugging and intercepts without warrants….,

    Despite all their hunting, these overpaid spooks have still not been able to supply the state with the identity and whereabouts of Rawshark.

    It seems, that despite all their best efforts…..,

    All the king’s horses and all the king’s men have not been able to put Humpty Dumpty back together again

    The Police go fishing for Rawshark

    The obvious glaring failure of the secret intelligence agencies to uncover the identity of Rawshark, has left the the state no choice but to send Mr Plod to enter Nicky Hager’s home for a bit of old time “evidential search”, (heavy ham fisted fishing expedition), all in a desperate last bid attempt to get at their quarry.
    Their hope being, that Mr Plod by rumbling though Nicky Hager’s sock drawer and looking behind the fridge and peering under the bed will lead the state to uncover the identity of the elusive Rawshark.

    Fat chance

    • BM 22.1
      7 October 2014 at 2:06 pm

      How do you know the hacker is a woman?
      Stay where your are, the authorities will be there soon to take you in for questioning.

    • yeshe 22.2
      7 October 2014 at 2:18 pm

      exactly, Pat ! in the same way they could not prevent live broadcast of Edward Snowden to Auckland Town Hall !! Big bad eggies on all their faces isn’t it ! It’s actually hysterically funny, if it were not so fricken serious for us all and our democracy.

      Kia kaha, Nicky.

  23. Kiwiri 23
    7 October 2014 at 1:34 pm

    Genuine question here as there has been so much mixed into the different strands.

    What was the legal basis for the search warrant?

    • Tracey aka Rawshark 23.1
      7 October 2014 at 2:06 pm

      I am guessing it would be that the police have reasonable grounds to believe that nicky hager knows the identity of the person or persons who hacked slaters system and stole his emails.

      As many on the right are deliberately or ignorantly missing is that the police never raided mr slaters home and office following his obtaining information stolen from mr blomfield… That this raid wasnt made weeks ago… That they have not made a single raid on the basis of information revealled in those emails or on the basis of complaints from david parker and the green party…

      Havent seen anyone here say there should be a blind eye turned to criminal activity… Unless the legal principle of public interest applies.

      As for those claiming Hager wont successfully show himself to be a freelance journalist, go read some case law.

      • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 23.1.1
        7 October 2014 at 3:59 pm

        Ok. Needing more clarification here. What was the trigger or what set off the filing of the search warrant?

        Is there going to be or is there an ongoing court case requiring or necessitating the warrant to be filed and the search executed?

        If not, was there a complaint that was filed with the police that made it crucial for Hager’s home to be raided like that? What was the complaint about, why would it be necessary, or how was the raid proportionate for the purposes of the complaint, to justify the search warrant being executed like that?

        Genuine questions here.

        • Pat O'Dea 23.1.1.1
          7 October 2014 at 6:00 pm

          Who laid the complaint with the police,

          Was it Whale Oil?

          Was it the Prime Minister?

          Was it the Director of the SIS?

          Was it a concerned member of the public?

          Or, did the police decide to raid Nicky Hager’s home without any complaint being made?

          Did the decision to raid Nicky Hager’s house come soley from out of the increasingly political police?

          If it was the police, Who gave the order?

          And what and whose advice, if any, did they seek?

          Will we ever know?

          • Murray Rawshark 23.1.1.1.1
            7 October 2014 at 10:30 pm

            If there was a complaint laid, I think it would have had to come from Blubber Boy. If they’ve acted without a complaint, I think that’s a whole other ball game.

  24. Skinny 24
    7 October 2014 at 2:00 pm

    That’s your opinion music man. Most educated people who have read Dirty Politics view the Key administration as shady. I’ve been in at a National party forum where Key and Joyce were present. Some old true blue tory duck was telling me “she didn’t like Key involving the National party in dirty tactics exposed in the book that she had read.” So saying Hager contributed to Nationals win at all, as I said that’s speculation by you.

    There were lots of reasons like king maker Peters. The non event of the moment of true put on by Dotcom. The CGT and raising the retirement age by Labour, together with to some an unpopular leader. The non willingness to include the Maori & Mana party.

    • Tracey aka Rawshark 24.1
      7 October 2014 at 2:08 pm

      We have reached the sad place where some believe that if their team wins the election and successfully deceives the public about a book, the corruption doesnt matter. I use the word corruption because the definition fits.

      • Puckish Rogue 24.1.1
        7 October 2014 at 4:00 pm

        Labour wins by corrupt practices, National wins by corrupt practices…cie la vie

        • framu 24.1.1.1
          7 October 2014 at 4:52 pm

          let me guess – pledge card?

          yes thats totally the same as running a back ops proxie war out of the PMs office.

          so many grubby little boot lickers these days

          – or should we call you “political submissives” – – Do you have a safety word?

        • One Anonymous Bloke 24.1.1.2
          7 October 2014 at 5:20 pm

          C’est la vie pas!

          Prosecute all the alleged offenders no matter how the chips fall.

  25. music4menz 25
    7 October 2014 at 2:50 pm

    I see David Parker as acting leader of the Labour Party is condemning the raid. Wouldn’t the raid still have gone ahead had the David Cunliffe/ David Parker team won the election and formed the current government? It is after all the police who are responsible for investigating Nicky Hager and not the government.

    Or would Mr Cunliffe or Mr Parker have interfered with the police investigation and used their Ministerial influence improperly? Mr Parker’s criticisms of the police suggest that that’s exactly what he would have done.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 25.1
      7 October 2014 at 3:04 pm

      After all, it is right wing liars like this hypocritical trash who are lying about who is being investigated. All this piece of shit needs is a shiny uniform and a big gate to open and close as the trucks roll by.

    • wekarawshark 25.2
      7 October 2014 at 4:46 pm

      music4menz, if the police do something wrong, who should tell them?

  26. dot 26
    7 October 2014 at 4:42 pm

    Vas is das of course it’s true

  27. Rolf 27
    7 October 2014 at 4:42 pm

    It is yet another clear evidence that the New Zealand police is not independent, but can be controlled as a tool for political purposes. Media is not independent, but politicians are using authorities, not only police, to personally attack and harass individuals to set warning examples. New Zealand has already attracted attention in Asia as one of the most corrupt countries in this part of the world. Chinese business is through the networks now advised to take the outmost care when dealing with New Zealand and preferably avoid the country all together. It is not just about political steering of the police, it is about the courts too. Several times we have observed how the politicians steer the court decision to what they want, ignoring New Zealand law as well as international law. Anyone supporting or associating themselves with Chinese risk punishment in New Zealand.

  28. Pascals bookie 28
    7 October 2014 at 4:46 pm

    @CarrickGraham was on the twitter just yesterday crowing about this raid, and then poof! the account was gone in a cloud of smoke.

  29. Pascals bookie 29
    7 October 2014 at 5:03 pm

    https://www.givealittle.co.nz/cause/NickyHager

    might want to chuck this on the front pge somewhere

  30. Pat O'Dea 30
    7 October 2014 at 5:36 pm

    Amnesty for Rawshark

    When do we want it?

    Now!

    “How far will the harassment of Hager go?”
    Anthony Robins

    A bigger question Anthony, might be; For how long, and to what lengths will the establishment go to, in their sinister pursuit of Rawshark?

    And what will they do with her, if they catch her?

    This vengeful hunt must stop now.

    All of us who value democracy and fair play must demand amnesty for Rawshark.

    1/ We must demand that the forces of the state abandon their fanatical vengeful hunt for Rawshark and that it goes no further than this outrageous raid on Nicky Hager.

    2/ The police must hand back all of Nicky Hager’s stolen property with an apology for invading his privacy and treading on his human rights and his rights as a journalist to report the story.

    3/ Any attempt to injunction or detain Nicky Hager or otherwise force him to identify his source, must be met with the biggest demonstrations this country has seen since 1981.

    Let’s start organising now

    Can you hear the people heark

    “WE ARE ALL RAWSHARK”

  31. Blue 31
    7 October 2014 at 5:38 pm

    I’m pretty sure that if my computer got hacked the police would not bother sending five officers around to the home of a witness to conduct a ten hour search.

    The police have better things to do with their time. A low-level computer hacking crime does not warrant this amount of attention.

    • Pat O'Dea 31.1
      7 October 2014 at 6:07 pm

      Who made the complaint?

      Who made the decision to prosecute the raid with that level of manpower, (5 officers) and for them to take over Nicky Hager’s home for that extended length of time, (10 hours)?

      Who made the decision, (presumably beforehand), that all Nicky Hager and his family’s electronic devices and papers should be seized?

      Who gave the orders?

      And on whose advice?

    • Richard AKA RAWSHARK 31.2
      7 October 2014 at 6:16 pm

      @blue

      +1 exactly.

  32. Realblue 32
    7 October 2014 at 6:40 pm

    @Blue. I guess that would depend whether the contents of your computer were then given to a third party who then used it for pecuniary gain to make money.

    • Bill 32.1
      7 October 2014 at 6:45 pm

      Ever thought of changing your handle to ‘Big huge elephant’?

    • kiwisaver 32.2
      7 October 2014 at 8:50 pm

      Because the book he wrote proved beyond doubt that the government of the country was involved in illegal, unethical and undemocratic activities against its political opponents.
      In other words political corruption was exposed.
      So the author did a service for his country by making its democracy healthier. This is why journalists are given special protection by law in democratic countries. Take away that protection and we’re no longer a free and fair society.
      The crime of hacking was a far lesser crime than the one of political corruption.

    • Richard AKA RAWSHARK 32.3
      7 October 2014 at 8:53 pm

      For-32 @Realblue

      Or,

      What better way to publish something the public should know, but as you read it you realize the media in NZ are implicated in the very pertinent thing you are trying to tell the nation.

      You find the one Journalist in NZ that is honest and you can trust and you ask him. He says lets take it too print then, once it’s published they cannot shut us down and arrest us like if we had say given it to the Herald.

      I’m not saying it happened it could have though,

      or you could be right, who knows, whatever happened, I think the distraction from the real story of what our elected representatives were up to is the real issue , of far more importance than the hacker, and some people seem, ever so fucking determined to keep bringing the subject up, in blog sites, TV, News Papers and fucking retarded munterheads who love being arses to people for kicks seem also to be ever so fucking determined not to let it rest.

      End rant.. forgive me.

  33. Whateva next? 33
    7 October 2014 at 10:49 pm

    Well, good night and god bless…

  34. Whateva next? 34
    7 October 2014 at 10:59 pm

    Or, should I say, good night and good luck?

  35. Mark 35
    8 October 2014 at 6:57 am

    Interestingly I had my car stolen and had 1 police officer spend less than 5 minutes taking my details and the car info and was told to go to my insurer.

    Slater a confidante of senior national politicians is hacked and makes a complaint to police as I did of illegal activity and so far has 50 hours of police effort chasing his stolen material.

    Clearly if your the victim of a crime in nz you need friends with political influence and the police will leave no stone unturned

    • minshark 35.1
      8 October 2014 at 12:24 pm

      Ive had to call the police 4 time over a full on brawl happening in my driveway, including one of the protagonists being beaten over my car bonnet out side my daughters window

      I was told to “go outside and have a look” when i suggested someone may be lying badly hurt on my driveway

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