How rude

106 comments on “How rude ”

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1. Gosman 1

   10 May 2011 at 8:28 am

   Three years of selling out???

   You do realise the nature of coalition politics means that junior coalition parties have to make compromises to further key policies they believe in?

   You could flip your argument and claim that ACT has had three years of selling out as well and it would be equally as silly.
   • Blighty 1.1

     10 May 2011 at 8:38 am

     Gosman. The Maori Party is accountable for every vote it has taken. Far too many of those votes have been in support of policies that have done its supporters major harm. That’s selling out.

     If they didn’t want to do it, they didn’t have to be in the coalition, did they?
     • Colonial Viper 1.1.1

       10 May 2011 at 8:59 am

       And miss out on about $90K of Ministerial pay a piece, access to chauffered Crown BMWs, a larger staff, extra money added to your super and more mana?

       You gotta be kidding Blighty, it may indeed be selling your own people out but being in the coalition was completely the economically rational thing to do.
       • Alwyn 1.1.1.1

         10 May 2011 at 10:13 am

         They do NOT receive any more money going to their superannuation, The maximum amount they receive is based on the basic parliamentary salary. Thus every member , who belongs to such a scheme, has exactly the same maximum.
         The only people who get more are former Prime Ministers, or their widows (and yes widowers but at the moment there aren’t any of these). The last time I checked neither Tariana no Pita was the Prime Minister.
2. mickysavage 2

   10 May 2011 at 8:44 am

   Perhaps those expressing outrage, real or pretended, at yesterday’s events, would do well to reflect for a while on the source of the Harawiras’ anger. The actions of the Maori Party, which have undermined so many of the people who gave them their trust in the last election, are very much ruder.
   
   Agreed and if only the MSM would concentrate on the real issues and not the banal human feeling stuff.
   
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
   • Gosman 2.1

     10 May 2011 at 8:46 am

     Yeah, it’s al the big bad MSM fault. Perhaps it is time you lefties called for all media to be strictly controlled and monitored by a Government agency. You could call it the Ministry of Truth.
     • weka 2.1.1

       10 May 2011 at 8:59 am

       That’s stupid Gosman, and a gross distortion of the problem. I’d have settled for the MSM reporting on what happened instead of reporting on Tariana Turia’s feelings about what happened (although they could be part of the report).

       What would have been even better would be a report on what happened AND putting that in the context of Maori politics, marae politics and Maori culture in general. Instead we have the pakehafied version, with a significant twist towards support for the MaP (how ironic), that just serves to futher instill pakeha values onto Maori business.
       • Gosman 2.1.1.1

         10 May 2011 at 9:19 am

         You have got to love it when lefties talk about putting news in context. Essentially this means framing the debate via some pseudo-intellectual historical context where the poor ‘victims’ of society aren’t really to blame for anything they do because it is all the fault of the ‘evil’ ruling classes. Yeah, the media should be forced to do that. It could be the job for the Ministry of Truth.
         • weka 2.1.1.1.1

           10 May 2011 at 9:39 am

           You’re still being stupid Gosman, and ignorant. I’m talking about putting it in a contemporary Maori context and that’s important irrespective of historical colonisation issues. Or do you think all Maori should act and live like pakeha?
           • grumpy 2.1.1.1.1.1

             10 May 2011 at 10:01 am

             Yep, looks like Ministry of Truth to m…..

             [lprent: Talking about ‘truth’ – see your previous comment. In the meantime adding you to auto-moderation ]
             • grumpy …

               10 May 2011 at 3:39 pm

               Yeah OK, had a quick look and have to say I got that from the Ross Meurant memoirs and it appears to finger Titewhai Harawira. However, other commenters here have linked it to either: Titewhai Harawira, Hana Te Hemora and Hana Jackson.
               Can’t find any confirming link to Harawira so I withdraw my comment.
           • Gosman 2.1.1.1.1.2

             10 May 2011 at 10:36 am

             Did Tariana Turia state that while she was sickened by the behaviour of Harawira it is all okay because that is how things are done in the Maori ‘context’?

             Being rude and abusive at a meeting is rude and abusive no matter what cultural background you come from.
             • weka …

               10 May 2011 at 3:04 pm

               “Did Tariana Turia state that while she was sickened by the behaviour of Harawira it is all okay because that is how things are done in the Maori ‘context’?”

               Of course not, because she was using the incident to undermine the MnP. Duh.

               “Being rude and abusive at a meeting is rude and abusive no matter what cultural background you come from.”

               Yes it is. But that doesn’t mean it’s always wrong in the way you seem to think – sometimes rudeness is justified. In your value system it’s a terrible thing to be rude. In other people’s it’s not. That marae should be left to decide what is appropriate there.
         • Adele 2.1.1.1.2

           10 May 2011 at 6:36 pm

           Teenaa koe, Gosman

           Gosman, how would you frame the debate, in a non-pseudo intellectual kind of way?
     • Campbell Larsen 2.1.2

       10 May 2011 at 10:16 am

       It is more laughable to think that a MSM duopoly, one half of which has received over $40million from the National government could or would be interested in balanced journalism.

       Obviously handing assessment of balance to the government would compromise the effort – that does mean that we cannot question motives in reporting and does not mean that we cannot assess framing, spin and the use of emotive descriptors in the portrayal of events/ issues in the media.

       Since you seem to favor a hands off approach to increasing the diversity and hence validity of opinion in the MSM I presume that you would support dismantling NZs media duopoly which is doing its best to discredit the principles of journalism.

       Personally I think that we should do both. It is not a difficult task to peel back the layers of spin especially given the clumsy fawning pieces by commentators like Fran O’Sullivan, Audrey Young and John Armstrong. A simple count of emotive descriptors and context is quite revealing I think you will find. Even a count of the number of times a person is mentioned in articles on different topics in any given day becomes quite revealing when they have little or no role in the discussion.

       In short you reference the Ministry of Truth as being an example of where we shouldn’t go, my assertion is that we already have a self appointed Ministry in the form of two colluding, foreign owned and controlled Media empires.

       We agree it seems that a Ministry of Truth is not a good thing. The question remains – what do we do about it?
       • Gosman 2.1.2.1

         10 May 2011 at 10:40 am

         So $40 million dollars of taxpayers money changed hands between the government and a privately owned media company did it?

         Do you have evidence of this transaction? When did the Government transfer these funds across ?
         • Campbell Larsen 2.1.2.1.1

           10 May 2011 at 10:49 am

           It was a ‘loan’ of course, a loan which granted Mediaworks, significant advantages over anyone else who may have liked to bid for the frequencies, all on the basis that they couldn’t afford to pay it – this despite the fact that they had deliberately structured their balance sheet to avoid paying tax. There you go you’re all up to date now, apologies for not being more precise, but do try and keep an eye on current events in the future will you? It makes political discussion so much easier…
         • Puddleglum 2.1.2.1.2

           10 May 2011 at 1:27 pm

           Gosman, do you think that the arrangement the government came to with mediaworks was perfectly justified and an example of how government should operate in relation to all businesses?

           If ‘yes’, why? If ‘no’, then can you think of any reason why the government came to this arrangement with this particular company?
       • lprent 2.1.2.2

         10 May 2011 at 10:48 am

         I was about to comment on it, but I see that Gosman beat me to it. Of course he did leave out a few crucial details.

         The point was that Mediaworks would owe the government $43 million for spectrum licenses if they wished to continue to use them. The government very very generously allowed them not to pay provided they paid a rather minimal interest charge. So no money changed hands, although it should have done if this arrangement had not been made and media works wanted to carry on using parts of the spectrum.

         Technically I suspect that the government gave a rather generous loan to some of their friends in the media because apparently someone from mediaworks asked John Key to do so. I wonder if that had something to do with upcoming elections?
       • Campbell Larsen 2.1.2.3

         10 May 2011 at 11:26 am

         An example of media analysis, from Danyl of the Dim Post, discussed on Pundit:

         http://www.pundit.co.nz/content/chart-of-the-day-say-something-already-edition

         Rob Salmond comes to a different conclusion than I would have, or rather asserts that the media focus on internal politics/ strife is the result of Labour party inaction rather than a deliberate effort in the MSM to portray Labour as divided/ weak – but have a look and decide for yourselves.

         Big ups to Danyl for putting together the Pies…Safer communities together…
   • TightyRighty 2.2

     10 May 2011 at 8:47 am

     Like labour do trying to appeal to the sense of jealousy that they believe everyone possesses against that nice man Mr Key because they do?
     • mickysavage 2.2.1

       10 May 2011 at 9:13 am

       I would stack up Labou’s detailed policy any day against the Nat’s equivalent.  One presents a comprehensive nuanced attempt to deal with the country’s problems.  The other comprises a collection of CT soundbites designed to hide the true intentions of the corporate elite that have taken over our country.
       • TightyRighty 2.2.1.1

         10 May 2011 at 9:36 am

         Labou’s, ? a Freudian admission they are committing heaps of boo boo’s?

         You, being a party stalwart and all, would know labours detailed policy backwards. It’s probably in your wank bank.

         However, the majority of the country, the ones who grant an electoral manadate, believe that Labou Bou’s policy consists of a single line, written in crayon, with the e’s backwards

         “Get John Key”
         • terryg 2.2.1.1.1

           10 May 2011 at 9:48 am

           FFS TightyRighty, are you six years old? If so, you should go to your room immediately, and not come out until you have something meaningful to say. Obnoxious brat.

           Alternatively, its OK for everyone to jump on you for any and all typographical errors…..
           • TightyRighty 2.2.1.1.1.1

             10 May 2011 at 9:55 am

             They frequently do terryg, you self righteous cock.

             If you can’t take the abuse, don’t comment on a post about the harawira’s i say. doubly so if you are handicapped and in titewhais care.

             The problem with the left, and the Mana party in particular is that they suffer from a curious affliction which the great James Delingpole so accurately described as the “the soft bigotry of low expectations”

             The mana party will only hold maori people back.
             • terryg …

               10 May 2011 at 11:19 am

               Ad Hominems from a talking colostomy bag. At least try and be creative with your insults.

               As for the rest of your reply, i’ll utilise Hitchens Razor – that which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.
             • bbfloyd …

               10 May 2011 at 11:31 am

               “if you can’t take the abuse, don’t comment on a post”…. you’re taking the micky aren’t you? this isn’t kiwiblog dickhead. take your “abuse” and stick it where it’s most appropriate.

               alternatively, you could do worse than hold youself up as an example to the young of the dangers of right wing stupidity.
             • dave brown …

               10 May 2011 at 12:00 pm

               “Low expectations”. I suffer from high expectations so I might agree with you. Except… what do you say to taxing capital gains, the Hone Heke tax, nationalising WATER (timely move) and getting the SAS out of Afghanistan? Clearly you see these as setbacks for Maori. What? Job prospects in the SAS? Access to affordable housing? Money in the bank? Water that is not full of shit? After 170 years of people like you holding Maori back are you a reliable witness to Maori expectations? Eh, you tight but soft bigot?
               • TightyRighty …

                 10 May 2011 at 12:41 pm

                 Taxing capital gains is fine with me. Opens up the housing stock for a younger generation, also places a premium on people seeking full disclosure before investing in anything which is great. As long as it counteracted by removing part of the income tax bracket, ie the first $10k is free or something along those lines.

                 The “hone heke” tax is stupid in the extreme, it penalises people for using their own money, however they use it. it will lead to a black “cash only” market, probably reducing the tax take. it’s to easy to evade. I’ll just whip my cash out of the bank, or probably only get paid in cash or kind. it’s easier for wealthy people to avoid. ill thought out economic policy that can only put another brake on the economy. No wonder the mana party loves the idea.

                 Nationalising water? sure, why not. Treat it the same way we treat roads and have a national infrastructure of aquifers, pipes and irrigation. user pays of course, no subsidies for anyone. then we can export it.

                 The rest of your post unsurprisingly makes no sense, or based on falsehoods.
                 • Puddleglum …

                   10 May 2011 at 2:04 pm

                   “However, the majority of the country, the ones who grant an electoral manadate”

                   ‘manadate’ – TightyRighty, you’re doing that subliminal advertising thingy for the Mana party, aren’t you?
                   • TightyRighty …

                     11 May 2011 at 9:46 am

                     A freudian slip by me. it’ll make for a good by-line in the by-election if the mana want to use it. For a hefty intellectual property right fee of course.
             • Adele …

               10 May 2011 at 6:56 pm

               Teenaa koe, tightyrighty

               Where on Earth do you get the right to describe a Māori future, and to suggest that yours is somehow superior.

               Your worldview is killing this planet, and it doesn’t take much science to prove. When you treat the planet purely as a commodity, to be rendered into product, and bought and sold as property – eventually you will run out. Its a planet.

               I loathe your worldview, it is ultimately built on greed – to have more than required to live a decent life – and to be joyously fat to those starving elsewhere. You are hypocrits too.
   • Bored 2.3

     10 May 2011 at 9:53 am

     Too right Mickey (and Rob), Turiana deserves much the same treatment as she dished out to Clark, the Maori party have only themselves to look to for why they are treated thus.

     Having said that Hone is still a racist, his comments regularly confirm that. And his mother has a long history of gangster style approach. They are not people I would want to be in cahoots with, much a case of count your fingers after shaking hands.
   • KJT 2.4

     10 May 2011 at 2:08 pm

     Somewhat conflicted about this.

     I have very little time for Titiwhai. Or the Hariwera’s in general. Especially after actions like; her treatment of Helen Clark, beating a Carrington resident so badly he had to go to hospital and calling a member of my family a race traitor, for marrying a Pakeha, among other things..

     Hard to know what Hone’s position is on his mothers actions. No one is going to go around publicly criticising their mother.

     But, The Maori moneyocracy party do deserve to have a hard time. Sellout is to mild a word. Giving support to the people who are going to keep most of us in poverty while a few escape with the dollars is supporting outright theft.
3. Gosman 3

   10 May 2011 at 8:45 am

   What major harm do you mean here? Government spending hasn’t been cut, (more’s the pity), and the rise in GST was offset by an increase in personal income via other sources. Where’s the evidence that a specific policy has actually led to major harm to Maori party supporters?
   • Colonial Viper 3.1

     10 May 2011 at 9:01 am

     Are you saying that the Mp managed to stop the National party from doing social harm to Maori?

     Or that the Mp have been completely ineffectual at bringing social benefits about to Maori?
     • Gosman 3.1.1

       10 May 2011 at 9:22 am

       Apparently the position of many on the left is that a revigorated ACT party will mean that National will go hell for leather in introducing hard right policies if they win the next election. This suggests that the current National administration has been moderated to a degree. Whether this is because of the Maori party or not is unclear.
       • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.1

         10 May 2011 at 4:07 pm

         Its because of the position of Saturn relative to Sagittarius.

         Or the fact that National desperately want a second term and slashing, burning and selling through their first term was not going to achieve that for them. Duh.
   • mickysavage 3.2

     10 May 2011 at 9:14 am

     How many times do we have to say this and how simple do we have to make it?
      
     The tax changes helped the rich get richer and made the poor poorer.  Can you spin that?
     • Gosman 3.2.1

       10 May 2011 at 9:28 am

       There’s no evidence that the tax changes made the poor poorer. This is just your opinion.

       Whether rich people becoming richer causes harm to poor people is also a matter of personal opinion.

       So in effect you haven’t got much, if any, in the way of actual evidence that the Maori party supporters have suffered ‘major harm’ from policies of the National led Government.
       • mickysavage 3.2.1.1

         10 May 2011 at 9:32 am

         Gosman you are such a crack up sometimes!
          
         Say you are not being serious!!
         • Gosman 3.2.1.1.1

           10 May 2011 at 9:36 am

           I acknowledge you as a hard core lefty believes right wing policies are harmful to people at the lower end of the scale. However this is not a cut and dried position, as much as you would like to think it is.

           Many right wingers think left wing policies are harmful to those at the bottom.

           You disagree with that position and I disagree with yours. That is why we have elections to allow the voters the opportunity to choose which view they accept. It isn’t a difficult concept to grasp.
           • terryg 3.2.1.1.1.1

             10 May 2011 at 9:51 am

             Answer this then:

             What proportion of their take-home pay would a family earning $40kpa pay in GST?

             And how about a family earning $100kpa?

             hint: poor people spend pretty much every cent they have (aside from poorly thought through discretionary spending, hat-tip Burt) on food, rent, transport and utilities.
           • Samuel Hill 3.2.1.1.1.2

             10 May 2011 at 9:56 am

             Most people understand that what is good for the bottom is good for the top is worse for the bottom and vice versa. There is no such thing as the trickle down effect in NZ, because hardly anybody is willing to invest here because that means hard work or risk. Investing in overseas pension funds and construction companies is a lot easier for these business folks than creating jobs.
             • terryg …

               10 May 2011 at 11:13 am

               “There is no such thing as the trickle down effect.”

               There, fixed it for you.
               • Samuel Hill …

                 10 May 2011 at 12:14 pm

                 Trickle down does kind of work in certain boom times, e.g. Australia right now. Obviously it isn’t mine workers who own the land but they are paid a fair amount for their work.
                 • Colonial Viper …

                   10 May 2011 at 4:06 pm

                   Seriously?

                   They have to pay those high wages because no one would live in a frakin hick town in the middle of arid wasteland 1000km from civilisation.

                   And it certainly is not “trickle down” as used in the economics theory sense because it doesn’t come from wealthy individuals spending their money on consuming goods and services provided by ordinary folk.

                   Essentially you just made up your own definition of “trickle down” to include a manufacturing operation in the middle of a desert.
                   • infused …

                     10 May 2011 at 9:36 pm

                     Hick towns? Buddy you got no idea.
                   • terryg …

                     11 May 2011 at 1:43 am

                     Indeed CV. Its erally just supply and demand – all that mineral wealth aint gonna extract itself now, is it. there is huge demand for skilled labour, and they pay accordingly. and work them hard too.
                   • Samuel Hill …

                     11 May 2011 at 12:29 pm

                     The Prime Minister of Australia lost his job last year because he wanted to get more tax from mining companies.

                     Lower taxes do have SOME effect on keeping mining companies in Australia. This keeps jobs in Aussie too. They have higher wages than us, but many New Zealanders who move to Australia don’t find the work much harder than what work they were doing in NZ. So there is no argument over working conditions.

                     Now you might say this is down to labour unions having worked for fair wages, and I would agree this is indeed a big part of it. I did say that trickle down ‘kind of works’, and how I mean this is that some of these overseas companies would not even be in Australia if it wasn’t for the reasonably low tax rate.

                     Now if they cut the tax even more, the companies will likely expand their mining, employ more people, and invest in more machinery. If the mining continues into the long term, wages will rise too. The risk is that mining profits won’t increase to the point where they raise overall tax revenue. In the short term, a lowering of taxes could be quite effective, but should be raised again if the market fails to invest. But being a non-renewable resource, it just means that once the resources are gone that there will be a lot of skilled people out of work.

                     Once you see people start losing there jobs in a resource industry, you know its trouble.
4. travellerev 4

   10 May 2011 at 8:47 am

   Amazing! Until I arrived in this country I didn’t understand the power of being called rude. It is such a tool for people to not have to deal with the issues being brought up.
   You’re rude, bam that’s it. I don’t have to deal with the issues you bring to the table because I don’t like you’re manner. What a heap of shite! Give me rude and and anger any day. At least you know were you stand.
   • Oleolebiscuitbarrell 4.1

     10 May 2011 at 8:52 am

     “Give me rude and and anger any day.”

     Oohh, I will try to remember that, Ev.
     • travellerev 4.1.1

       10 May 2011 at 9:04 am

       Sticks and stones O, sticks and stones.
       I think that, to stay with the thread, that the Maori party sold out. I said so on the 16th of November 2008 and as far as I’m concerned I have been proven right.

       If I a 55 year old middle class white women could see it coming in November 2008 then I can only imagine how screwed most Maori who voted for the Maori party are feeling now.

       I said it before and I’ll say it again; I’ll be voting for the Mana party come election ad this is what I said about Hone in November 2009.
        
       • terryg 4.1.1.1

         10 May 2011 at 9:57 am

         +1 internets to you travellerev.

         The ‘net term is Tone Trolling – complaining about how something is said, rather than the substance.

         The sort of people who will get mightily offended if someone bursts into a shop shouting “call the fucking police” and proceed to lecture them, at length, on how inappropriate that is, whilst ignoring the assault going on outside and of course not actually calling the police.

         “pompous gits” is another term.
         • travellerev 4.1.1.1.1

           10 May 2011 at 10:50 am

           Thanks for the info on net etiquette. LOL
   • Gosman 4.2

     10 May 2011 at 9:15 am

     Yet you criticised me for what you perceived as my outburst against your wacky conspiracy theory friend.

     The hypocrisy of some people on the left knows no bounds.
     • travellerev 4.2.1

       10 May 2011 at 9:28 am

       Eh?
       • Gosman 4.2.1.1

         10 May 2011 at 9:32 am

         Feeling a bit slow today travellerev?
         • travellerev 4.2.1.1.1

           10 May 2011 at 9:48 am

           No cowboy hat boy, you’re just so incomprehensible all I’m left with is an Eh? That’s all. Have a nice day.
5. Oleolebiscuitbarrell 5

   10 May 2011 at 8:51 am

   I doubt that this is the source of Harawira’s anger. She was quite angry well before this.
   • Craig Glen Eden 5.1

     10 May 2011 at 12:40 pm

     Thats true Oleole, her anger is nothing new just now its directed at other Maori.
6. Samuel Hill 6

   10 May 2011 at 9:14 am

   Better to be sold out than be part of the 4% of New Zealand’s voting population unrepresented in parliament e.g. NZ First voters.

   Maybe Mrs Harawira or any other Maori Party voters could change to to the general role and see how represented they feel?

   Oh hang on. Why would they do that?

   I think it is a disgrace that these seats even exist.
7. vto 7

   10 May 2011 at 9:19 am

   The harawira’s seem to have an anger problem. Everytime something goes wrong for them they try to deal with it through anger.

   ARRRGH, YOU BLOODY BASTARDS! LYING SCUM AND TREACHERY. BUGGER YOU LOT …

   hmmm, yes I can see how that would work…
   • weka 7.1

     10 May 2011 at 9:45 am

     Strange, because I have less of a problem with the Harawiras’ behaviour than alot of the aggressive and often nasty bullshit that goes on in parliament. Are we sure this isn’t about the Harawiras rather than their behaviour?
     • Samuel Hill 7.1.1

       10 May 2011 at 9:51 am

       The Harawiras and their behaviour aren’t separate things. What you say and what you do are what defines somebody’s character.. I’m sure if for example Phil Goff’s mother walked into a meeting and started swearing at John Key that people would think this wasn’t on too.
       • weka 7.1.1.1

         10 May 2011 at 9:59 am

         But people get criticised for behaviour that wouldn’t be such an issue in someone else eg women get slammed for being angry when it’s ok for men. What I meant was that the criticism is coloured by the fact that people hold certain opinions about the Harawiras. I’m not condoning the behaviour (I don’t have enough information to know what I think about it), but I am curious that so many people think it’s a big deal, especially when they’re going off the account of one of Titewhai’s enemies.

         Besides, what if it was Goff’s father?
         • Samuel Hill 7.1.1.1.1

           10 May 2011 at 10:11 am

           The sex thing is interesting. I can’t speak for Phil Goff, but I’m sure if my grandfather came into a political rally and abused somebody on my behalf, whilst I’m sure my opponent would be a little shaken up, I would be quite embarrassed.

           Hone Harawira didn’t exactly have much of a logical defence for his Mum.

           “who can deny the anger of a mother. Who can deny the tears of a kuia.”

           http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/maori-party-leaders-hit-over-titewhai-harawira-abuse-4161784

           People do hold certain views of the Harawiras, and while some of these views are extreme and racist, people like me view the Harawiras as honest, yet mis-guided in their approach. I fully support his hope of making the future better for Maori, but I don’t support hypocritical and contradictory defenses of abuse.
       • lprent 7.1.1.2

         10 May 2011 at 10:19 am

         I wouldn’t be surprised that Hone Hawawira was at a meeting and told some pious hypocrite what he thought of them. He has been known to do it. Why would I expect his mother to be any different?

         It is in their character and that is exactly what he got voted in for last time. According to friends and family that voted in that election, it wasn’t so much for being a Maori party member as for being Hone Hawawira.

         Basically Turiana is just being a political idiot. Deferentially lying at the great chiefs feet and drooling simply isn’t part of northern Maori behavior. She shouldn’t expect it there.
         • Samuel Hill 7.1.1.2.1

           10 May 2011 at 10:36 am

           And I would suggest there isn’t much moral difference between Hone defending his views and Don Brash or Roger Douglas defending their views. Both are being honest, and both use inflammatory language to pursue their goal of satisfying the interests of a certain minority section of society. But if some ACT Party member started abusing John Key about his ‘moderate’ position, and said ‘we should eliminate welfare and let the poor fend for themselves’, I’m sure we would all think the ACT guy was an idiot. And then if Don Brash came out and defended the guy? Well..

           The longer we defend this kind of behaviour on either side of the political spectrum the sooner it will be that we are all political idiots.

           And thats not to say that I don’t support protesting, or free speech, or protest riots..

           But I think we need to poke our heads up above political support sometimes and defend good old fashioned human decency and intellectual debate. Whatever though, you’re all entitled to your views 🙂
           • Gosman 7.1.1.2.1.1

             10 May 2011 at 10:45 am

             Here, here.

             Best post on thread by far, (including mine ;))
             • bbfloyd …

               10 May 2011 at 11:46 am

               “including mine’…. the last time i checked, writing foolish nonsensical tripe wasn’t regarded as pertinent comment.
               • Gosman …

                 10 May 2011 at 1:42 pm

                 Perhaps you should consider not posting anymore if you a problem with that sort of thing.
           • weka 7.1.1.2.1.2

             10 May 2011 at 7:10 pm

             Maybe Samuel, but I still think there is a double standard here. Titewhai wasn’t in parliament. She was on a marae (her own?), and it’s the people of that marae that get to determine what is appropriate behaviour. I don’t see why any of the people there should adhere to standards set by pakeha dominated society. It’s their place, their people, their politics and their shit to sort out. If Titewhai acted like that (although I still haven’t seen an unbiased report of what she actually did) in parliament I’d probably see it differently.

             I’m trying to remember some examples of bad behaviour in parliament. I think Marilyn Waring used to talk about some hair-raising things that went on, both in formal situations and in the corridors. Maybe things have improved since then, but I was under the impression that rudeness and nastiness were still fairly common.
     • vto 7.1.2

       10 May 2011 at 10:21 am

       Weka they can yell and scream all they like. Dont bother me none. What I find amusing is that the Harawiras think being angry and yelling at people can solve all their problems. In my experience that is the complete antithesis of a solution. I just think it is brainless. But there you go – takes all types..
8. ianmac 8

   10 May 2011 at 9:54 am

   When election meetings were held in the past, they were often wild rollicking shouting places. It was always fun at National ones where the front rows were always reserved for National Party members. And as one they would turn on any hecklers. Often hecklers would be escorted out. Muldoon was famous for his sharp response to challenges from the audience.
   And now? Shame. Horror. Hurt. Hecklers heckled? In future all those attending election meetings shall have plaster bound to their mouths. Sit down and be quiet.
   • The Voice of Reason 8.1

     10 May 2011 at 10:32 am

     Muldoon’s sharpest response to a heckler was to thump one. I think it was worth a point or two to him on election night. I heckled John Key rather loudly during the last campign and was assaulted by two rabid tories for doing so. A copper pulled one blue rinsed old bat off me and told her that a bit of verbal to and fro was the price we pay for living in a democracy. Sensible advice.
9. Ron 9

   10 May 2011 at 10:00 am

   Turia is a bully. I’ve been on the receiving end of her tongue and watched others get it when they’ve asked reasonable questions.
   She’s getting a little of her own and she doesn’t like it.
   She and Pita are fighting for their political lives now and I’m sure we’ll see more crocodile tears.
10. weka 10

    10 May 2011 at 10:04 am

    “and of course Kiwiblog”

    Yeah, that bastion of good manners.
11. M 11

    10 May 2011 at 10:43 am

    Can’t always support Titewhai but I’d rather have her Bloody Mary passion for Maori than Tariana’s soulless Virgin Mary interpretation.
12. Bill 12

    10 May 2011 at 10:53 am

    Passion has no place in politics!

    Issues are to be dealt with regard to the anally retentive social mores that permeate established centers of authority. Meaning that:

    1. ‘Correct’ and acceptable language ought to be employed at all times.
    2. A facade of civility ought to be maintained at all times.
    3. One ought to be ‘polite’.
    4. One ought to be ‘nice’.
    5. And above all, one must have the ability to be sincerely insincere and allow ‘the dutifully followed process’ be the vehicle that delivers the blade into the rib cage.
    6. The ‘dutifully followed process’ can be bent to be nothing more than a mangled caricature of decency and honesty and can even be disgustingly violent in its effect. But as long as 1 through 5 are adhered to, then the bastion of ‘civility’ will quite properly be seen to have triumphed over ‘uncouth’ and ‘dangerous’ manifestations of the unwashed and uncivilised masses.

    And so the likes of Don will always receive a big tick (even if it’s somewhat begrudgingly given) because he’s seen to be playing by a version of the rules. And the Harawira’s, along with everyone else for who acting in accordance with 1 through 5 isn’t second nature, will routinely receive a big red cross.
    • ianmac 12.1

      10 May 2011 at 3:36 pm

      Those in favour of Bill’s Passion Play please say Aye. Aye x305,768 votes. Carried.
13. vto 13

    10 May 2011 at 12:24 pm

    ha ha, classic goings-on today at The Standard that’s for sure.

    About a million comments on how rude a sub-minor political activist was and…

    about a dozen comments on the sale and privatisation of water…

    Says it all … we’re doomed!
    • Campbell Larsen 13.1

      10 May 2011 at 2:31 pm

      Dissent shepherding.
    • ianmac 13.2

      10 May 2011 at 3:44 pm

      Trouble is VTO the water policy neglects so much that it is hard to comment on what it says because it doesn’t say much unless 2030 is a good goal to aim for. But agree to your relative idea:
      Rudeness V Water.
14. deemac 14

    10 May 2011 at 12:24 pm

    One of the things that alienates ordinary people from politics is the bad behaviour in Parliament. Now a lot of this is play-acting but that doesn’t make it acceptable.
    Bad behaviour at public meetings or hui is not acceptable either – if people can’t allow others to speak without trying to shout them down or intimidate them (“I know where you live”) then no rational person should defend that. People can have strong feelings and express them strongly without being abusive.
    Did the abuse at the hui help the Mana Party? I doubt it. So it’s not even effective.
    Sad to see posters here trying to defend the indefensible.
    • lprent 14.1

      10 May 2011 at 1:52 pm

      Umm. I’ve been at political meetings for most of my adult life. If they are debate between campaigners then you frequently get heckling of one form or another in some of them.

      The worst one was listening to Richard Prebble standing for Labour in Auckland Central in 1989 (that was when I decided I’d better find another MP to support). It was wise as he buggered off to Act a few years later.

      The next worst were any debate in Epsom that I have been to. That is where you see all of the arsehole ACToids shouting down all other opposition.

      Actually now I think about it, bad behavior in political meetings for me is always associated with ACToids. I guess that is one of the reasons I don’t like them much.
    • ianmac 14.2

      10 May 2011 at 3:38 pm

      Listening to Parliament Question Time today would suggest that the hui fuss was nothing!
      • PeteG 14.2.1

        10 May 2011 at 4:04 pm

        Did they mention this?

        Go to police, Turia tells threatened supporters

        Maori Party co-leader Tariana Turia has advised party supporters who were threatened in Te Tai Tokerau to contact the police.

        Mrs Turia said there were a couple of threats made against people for their work with the Maori Party at a hui last weekend.

        People were told if they showed their faces in Kaitaia they’d “know all about it”.

        It could be overblown, but it doesn’t sound like it’s going to be an amicable campaign.
15. Rodel 15

    10 May 2011 at 12:41 pm

    Got this on email today………………………

    “Please sign and send on:-

    As a rule, I don’t pass along these “add your name” lists that appear in e-mails, BUT this one is important.

    It has been circulating for months and has been sent to over 22 million people.

    We don’t want to lose any names on the list so just hit forward and send it on.

    Please keep it going!

    To show your support for the MP, Hone Harawera, and the job
    he is doing please go to the end of the list and add your name. ..

    1. Titiwhai Harawera
    2. “
16. NZ not sor sale 16

    10 May 2011 at 3:47 pm

    To show your support for privatisation please add your name _ _ _ _ _

    1. Jenny Shipply, China development bank
    2. _ _ _
17. William Joyce 17

    10 May 2011 at 4:05 pm

    Hone is his mother’s son but he tries to control it when the cameras are on. I suspect that he has developed his world view from a pre-rational time in his life and there is no reasoning with him. It is clear that does not think through his comments or arguments and sometime you can drive trucks through them.
    I am all for his opposition to what National has done (or hasn’t done). I understand and agree with his distaste at the MP siding with National while his people suffer. I agree with his concentration on the needs of the low paid, the sick, the ignored, the rights of the worker, the disproportionate way Maori feature in social statistics.
    There is a huge empty space on the left that just must be filled. I am not convinced that Hone is the one to fill it. At least on in Parliament.
     
    He is by far suited (has the balls) to lead protests in the streets against food prices etc. not leading a party in parliament.
     
    The style of the Harawera’s is to be oppositional. They are not suited to any politics that require negotiation. I am not convinced that they (Hone included) don’t have serious racial prejudice issues that is NOT excused by pointing to racism on the right or pointing to the list of historical grievances. There is no integrity selectively fighting racism when it appears in Tamaki but excusing it when it appears in Northland.
    For this and his oppositional MO – it was inevitable that Hone would fall out with the Maori P. regardless of the issues.
    I would imagine that they would turn on anyone that had the balls to have independent thought that differed from them. I wonder how well the Mana P. will function. Are they only going to be a party made up of the same type of people? What if one of them disagrees with Hone? Will Mum come in to rip some limbs off? They are already a party of a minority of a minority – can they gain wider appeal in order to get the votes they need?
    As for the Harawera’s, I despair when I hear fellow people of the left ignore the the obviously obnoxious behaviour and going so far as to excuse their behaviour in some mistaken glorification of ethnic culture.
     
    It was interesting to note Derek Fox on Marae Investigates last Sunday when he made an observation from a visit to the Northland last weekend. He was talking to people of Hone’s age and younger and they were so over the style of politics that the Harawera’s represent.
    Fox (and a number of others I have heard) have suggested that they are an anachronism.
    It could be argued that this is just an example of a populace that has been rendered apathetic by the right and a debt-laden consumerist society – and there could be truth to that. It could also be that the style of debate as moved on.
    Whatever the truth, there may come a day (soon?) when we will need someone to take to the streets and that is where a Hone could find a role (and glad I would be for it) but it is not in Parliament.
    • PeteG 17.1

      10 May 2011 at 4:28 pm

      There is a huge empty space on the left that just must be filled. I am not convinced that Hone is the one to fill it. At least on in Parliament.

      I think you’re right there. He is good at protest, at raising attention, but he seems to be short on solutions and in particular he’s short on ways of getting things done, especially when it involves working with other people. Too much gripe, not enough graft.

      What has he actually achieved for “the low paid, the sick, the ignored, the rights of the worker, the disproportionate way Maori feature in social statistics”?
      • Colonial Viper 17.1.1

        10 May 2011 at 4:33 pm

        Frak coming up with the solutions, Hone’s job is to make people realise that there is a problem first and foremost, and when there is a real appetite to look for solutions that’s when it will happen.

        BTW the Mana Party has already indicated many clear policy directions.

        What has he actually achieved for “the low paid, the sick, the ignored, the rights of the worker, the disproportionate way Maori feature in social statistics”?

        Mate, he is a relatively powerless opposition MP, why don’t you ask that question to those who wield the authority and budget of the Treasury benches: National, ACT and the ‘Maori’ Party.
        • PeteG 17.1.1.1

          10 May 2011 at 4:46 pm

          Most people are well aware of the problems. Real leaders initiate solutions and are motivators. Harawira is a moanivator.

          Harawira is more powerless now, is soon to be even more powerless, and risks staying solely in gripe mode. That is a major problem.
          • Colonial Viper 17.1.1.1.1

            10 May 2011 at 5:28 pm

            Most people are well aware of the problems.

            No they are not.

            Ask people around the place how many NZ children are living in poverty.

            How many NZ’ers commit suicide every year.

            Where NZ ranks in incarceration statistics.

            Most don’t have a frakin clue.
    • Jim Nald 17.2

      10 May 2011 at 5:41 pm

      “Derek Fox on Marae Investigates”

      What is Derek Fox’s kind of politics?
18. Joe Carolan 18

    10 May 2011 at 5:11 pm

    The real story about this Hui was that the Maori Party only got sixteen people there.

    Sixteen.
    • lprent 18.1

      10 May 2011 at 5:28 pm

      Ummm. Doesn’t speak of a lot of local support does it..
19. Toby Keith 19

    10 May 2011 at 8:56 pm

    The left doesn’t give a shit how you treat people do you??, you can be abusive, vulgar, you can even threaten people and treat them like shit, as long as you have the same ideology, you guys just dont care.

    [lprent: Read the policy. It is there for a reason – it explains the ground rules that this site runs under. If you want to change something about those rules, then follow the advice in the last section of the about.

    Quite simply it isn’t your ideology that people are ignoring or dissing you on. There are just about as many ideologies here as there are commentators from the extreme left to the extreme right and on every other political axis.

    It is because you are an inept commentator who reminds everyone of the poorest type of troll from the last election. You are just receiving their opinion of your behavior. It is just boring to read.

    As I said previously – learn to do better or expect to have your commenting capabilities removed. ]
20. CentreOfLeft 20

    10 May 2011 at 9:02 pm

    Y’know, I actually quite like Hone… I think he brings up a lot of good points that need to be heard…

    But he really needs to throw his mum under a bus the way Obama did with Rev. Wright.
21. Anna 21

    11 May 2011 at 1:26 pm

    I’m a long time reader and first time poster. I know this might be difficult for some people who are worried about airs and graces, but as someone who is from the Far North, we have quite a bit of tolerance for those who like to get things off the chest. Most of us are up front and not many of us are backwards in coming forwards when we have an issue to air. Sharples and Turia should have known this. They do know this and now they’re playing on it for sympathy with a mainstream audience. This is the classic good Maori -v- bad Maori dichotomy where Sharples and Turia are trying to act ‘civilised’ against the ‘savages’.

    This is one of the reasons why they held their invite only hui in Waitangi at a fancy hotel because they couldn’t face up to the criticism in open forum. Both like to play the kaumatua and kuia, and appear to have an abstract or idealised view of how marae protocol works. It might be like that in the national ones that they’ve started or in their own ones – where they’re big fishes – but in the Far North? They’re the leaders of a political party who have sold out and have gone after one of our own. Make no mistake on this: Flavell was the front guy in getting Hone, but Turia was the one that sent the ‘boys’ in. Now she has to battle Titewhai and from what it looks like, Turia doesn’t like that proposition one bit.

    ‘Marae’ in the Far North are not like churches. Marae are more like community halls for family functions. Imagine Christmas – multiply that by 100 (sometimes less, sometimes more), imagine all the different personalities that go on in there and then imagine that two people who’ve just tried to shaft you, and yours have turned up to grease you …

    You might not like it, but that’s the way it is. I’d rather it was that way, than go somewhere with the expectation that person smiling at me, hasn’t poisoned my tea.
    • r0b 21.1

      11 May 2011 at 1:35 pm

      Thanks for moving on to commenting Anna, welcome.
    • lprent 21.2

      11 May 2011 at 1:58 pm

      I know this might be difficult for some people who are worried about airs and graces, but as someone who is from the Far North, we have quite a bit of tolerance for those who like to get things off the chest. Most of us are up front and not many of us are backwards in coming forwards when we have an issue to air

      That has been my experience.

      ‘Marae’ in the Far North are not like churches. Marae are more like community halls for family functions.

      I’ve always found that going onto Northern Marae is like being around home. Complete with the family ‘discussions’, which are quite loud and quite blunt. Generally you leave the politeness at the door or with the frigging anglos who seem to think that everything should be hidden behind some social criteria invented by bloody Queen Victoria.

      You might not like it, but that’s the way it is. I’d rather it was that way, than go somewhere with the expectation that person smiling at me, hasn’t poisoned my tea.

      Hey it is the way I operate as well. Few people are ever in doubt of how I view them. It generally works and if it offends a few people who like hiding opinions behind ‘politeness’ then so much the better. I do think that it is more characteristic of the Northerners than those further south.
22. William Joyce 22

    11 May 2011 at 11:55 pm

    Thank you Anna for you bringing your experience and knowledge to the debate. You’re right, families are more robust with each other and push the boundaries of polite society because they know that their kinship will survive people speaking their minds.
    As someone who has had learned to “stand up” to a very opinionated, loud, six foot something, battle-hardened vet. of a Dutch uncle – I understand how family groups have accepted levels of heat can be in a debate before the bonds of love are put under unacceptable pressure.
     
    The question I have is, were you there and able to gauge whether what happened was over the top or not? Even robust discussion among family can turn nasty if taken beyond the accepted limits of the group.
    Being distant from the events, I have to go by what I hear from the various commentators.
     
    • Anna 22.1

      12 May 2011 at 12:13 am

      Hi William – no I wasn’t there. I no longer support the Maori Party so I wouldn’t attend one of their hui. My post was more to characterise how interactions can function. I’ve been to plenty of hui where there has been “robust” discussion, including some with Tariana Turia who was not backwards in coming forwards either. As an aside, the only ones really commentating on this are Turia and Sharples. I haven’t heard from anyone else about events at the Maori Party hui which, in itself, is quite interesting. Those commentating on this matter in the media have picked up the story second hand and appear to be taking Turia and Sharples’ version of events as gospel. I’m wondering why no-one has asked the local mana whenua for their opinions or other attendees what their reflections are? This is turning into be a filthy campaign. Turia and Sharples are going after the Harawiras personally. Every comment about Hone and the Mana Party is about “Hone” as a person. The Maori Party need to be building bridges with the Far North. They’ve offended us enough with their behaviour and considering the people from those regions have strong influence in two seats (one of which is Sharples and is now marginal), you’d think they’d try another tactic. I heard the turn out for the Maori Party was dismal. Maybe this is why Titewhai has become the news item? My aka kumara said they got under 20 people there? Not sure how true that is, but if they got under 100 – jeepers. I could get more people round my place for a cup of tea and a boil up than that in a day!
23. the pink postman 23

    12 May 2011 at 3:40 pm

    Everone seems to be shouting swearing at each other and making snide remarks onn slip ups. Whilst this is going on the Tories are slowly and surely stuffing the country up.

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