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I see a poverty of ideas and a poverty of Government responsibility

Written By: - Date published: 7:35 am, October 13th, 2016 - 210 comments
Categories: benefits, Economy, john key, Judith Collins, national, same old national, the praiseworthy and the pitiful, welfare, you couldn't make this shit up - Tags: ,

Judith Collins joker

National has this tactic that it uses all the time.

Despite being in power for the past eight long years, whenever a problem arises it is always someone else’s fault.

For instance with the housing crisis it is all the fault of Auckland Council and a group of faceless planners who are hell bent on stopping development.

For pretty well every other problem it is all Labour’s fault.  Even after 8 long years Helen Clark and the fifth Labour government are still the go to if National needs to deflect blame.

Yesterday Judith Collins launched into deeply cynical territory.  She suggested that child poverty is the exclusive fault of the parents.

Her comments are calculated.  They may improve or at least maintain her political standing.  They are not based on any understanding of reality.  They will make it worse for children and families struggling.  Clearly political standing is more important than dealing with child poverty.

From Radio New Zealand:

In New Zealand, there was money available to everyone who needed it, she said.

“It’s not that, it’s people who don’t look after their children, that’s the problem.

“And they can’t look after their children in many cases because they don’t know how to look after their children or even think they should look after their children.”

“I see a poverty of ideas, a poverty of parental responsibility, a poverty of love, a poverty of caring.”

As the MP for Papakura, she saw a lot of those problems in south Auckland, she said.

“And I can tell you it is not just a lack of money, it is primarily a lack of responsibility.

“I know that is not PC, but, you know, that’s me.”

It seems that on planet Judith it is all the parents fault.  She does not explain however what parents are meant to be doing.  After all with 40% of kids living in poverty has parents who are working it is clear that the causes are with wages and systems and the cost of housing and nothing to do with supposed personal frailties that the parents may or may not have.

It is clear that Collins was on the defensive when she made her comments.  She was asked a question which noted the UN report on child poverty and how this was resulting in kids being assimilated into gangs and asked if the Government was doing enough.  Her initial response was to question what the UN had ever done to address child poverty in New Zealand.  She then launched her attack on the parents.  Keep it classy Judith.

At the beginning of the current term John Key warned against National MPs being arrogant and out of touch.  Yesterday Judith Collins showed how arrogant and out of touch with reality was.

210 comments on “I see a poverty of ideas and a poverty of Government responsibility”

  1. disgustingly dirty political animal – know your enemy – they are privileged, out of touch liars, thickos and cheats – may I present shonkeys cabinet…

    • Takere 1.1

      And she should take that mask off! She should know better!

      • AmaKiwi 1.1.1

        @ Takere

        No! Judith already has the mask off which is why she lets everyone see the dark selfish soul of this government.

        Or do you prefer the smiling assassin?

    • reason 1.2

      I sometime wonder if judith collins hates poor Maori children as her actions directly contribute to their disgraceful and our shameful rate of poverty and abuse they suffer.

      She Played a Key role in the roastbustrering of the Alcohol law review…… and the Pro industry shambles the Nats ended up palming off as Alcohol reform.

      Alcohol abuse is a Key part in the world cup for domestic violence that NZ is champion in.

      Abused children and battered women are just collateral damage …..something her favorite self nominee and bender of justice wayne mapp would approve of

      Her latest cynical abuse shows her benefiting through her husbands blue Octopus Orivida……. which is involved in a fraudulent exploitative and Asset stripping and resource exporting business…. http://publicaddress.net/envirologue/swamp-monsters-the-looting-of-northlands/

      A tax evasion like loop hole was abused to export ancient Kauri logs as stumps … but the Kauri-con was discovered and the exporting choked down on.

      Leading to blue orvida and by association Judith sitting with a yard full of these logs …… waiting for a law change to allow what was once illegal to be legal …going on past Nactform.

      This yard full of Ancient Kauri is in one of the poorest parts of New Zealand …… I would confiscate this ancient Kauri and give it to the local people from whom everything else had been taken.

      The greed and cynicism of Judith is quite disgusting as she harms the most vulnerable and least well off

      judith the muss ….. crusher collins ……..does more than just talk tough.

  2. AB 2

    A vicious sadistic lie that will go down well with National’s base.
    It has a tiny sliver of truth to it in some extreme cases – so it feels less outrageous than, say, blaming aliens.

  3. Ad 3

    Good to hear John Tamihere on RNZ commenting and sounding quite nuanced on poverty and the state’s responses.

    • Takere 3.1

      Agree. His work is starting to reap some good info & data about the causes, remedy and a host of solutions.
      If you’re born into a dysfunctional impoverished family. That is the norm for you, so the cycle is repeated until something changes with that person, that change could be either positive or negative.
      You become a victim of your own making because of the cycle and so do your offspring.
      Crusher Collins believes people choose to be criminals because they really want to be? That could be true for about 3% of the population but not for 150,000 kids in poverty and parents that are struggling to provide for them.

      The Nat’s constant negative messaging is really starting to fall apart, people aren’t buying it anymore.

      So if the opposition keep them on the subjects they’re failing at, Housing, poverty, health, economy, environment. Basically everything!
      If they continue with the same piss poor incoherent rant and attack on the less fortunate & the party(s) or journo or even organisation that provide the expertise and information which proves them to be wrong. They will lose the confidence of rationale thinking folks and hopefully the election!

      Keep on asking the same questions over & over again and watch their heads explode!

  4. Muttonbird 4

    Bill will be thrilled he and Collins stand shoulder to shoulder on this issue.

    • Michelle 4.1

      Bill who Muttonbird ?

        • Pasupial

          I don’t read that comment the same way you do Muttonbird. Perhaps you linked to the wrong one?

          There’s a line in the post that claims homelessness and poverty produces thieves and burglars…
          I think that’s wrong headed and discriminatory.

          • Muttonbird

            Oh well. I thought it was clear Bill was trying to minimise the connection between the disenfranchised and high rates of volume crime in those areas. Just as Collins did.

            • Pasupial

              If you accept that fraud is a form of theft, then I would argue that most theft is actually the result of the well-heeled rather than the downtrodden:

              since Sept. 8, when Wells Fargo said it would pay $185 million in fines for opening as many as two million customer accounts and credit cards without authorization, dozens of former employees have stepped forward to tell stories like Ms. Tishkoff’s — describing the company’s toxic sales culture and their own thwarted efforts to use the bank’s internal channels to draw attention to the scope of the problem.

              “Everybody knew there was fraud going on, and the people trying to flag it were the ones who got in trouble,” said Ricky M. Hansen Jr., a former branch manager in Scottsdale, Ariz., who was fired after contacting both human resources and the ethics hotline about illegal accounts he had seen being opened.


            • Bill

              Nah Muttonhead.

              I was merely pointing out that if you’re going to contend that homelessness produces thieves and burglars, then when the misanthropic among us call for crack-downs on miscreants (read:the poor, the homeless etc) then you’ll find you don’t have a leg to stand on by way of a response to those calls.

              It’s buying into old-school bullshit about poor people being criminally minded.

              edit: You did notice that in every comment I made I left supposed rising rates of violence aside? That’s because I happen to agree that stress can lead to various forms of lashing out (both self destructive and/or destructive of or towards others). I’ll reiterate – being poor does not result in someone becoming a burglar or a thief.

  5. ianmac 5

    A slap in the face or worse for those low wage earners with both parents working and still not living adequately.
    Judith Collins could eyeball them and tell them they are lousy parents.
    As long as she was willing to step out of her ivory limousine of course!

  6. One Anonymous Bloke 6

    One time a journalist might like to ask her why bad parenting always increases under National. If they can resist the urge to vomit on her, that is.

    • Michelle 6.1

      Everything negative increases under National inequalities, crime rate and P issues and where is the rehab monies for our P people in our country where is the money and funds from confiscated properties and cash going to. Obviously not the people that need help

  7. Eme 7

    Poverty is an important cause of poor parental responsibility. If you pay 50%+ on rent and work 3 or more jobs to feed an house your family, it would affect anyone’s parenting.

  8. esoteric pineapples 8

    Judith looks remarkably like Jack Nicholson as the Joker in that photo

    • Ffloyd 8.1

      I think she looks more like Bride of Chucky.

    • I , ….. would have to say a wee song by Denis Leary would be not only apt but extremely descriptive of said politician,… in fact , if we were to extrapolate further it would indeed be most appropriate for the majority of the core MP’s in this current govt.

      Have a wee listen then, And enjoy.

      I would say that the USA is not the only country replete with its fair share of arseholes in political power – we have more than our fair right now in govt.

  9. Puckish Rogue 9

    and theres the outrage that will see a bump in the polls for National

    • ianmac 9.1

      Perhaps you are right PR. Those in poverty are not likely to be NAct voters are they? So the Collin’s call will resonate with the wealthy folk who want to stay wealthy. NAct voters of course.

      • Puckish Rogue 9.1.1

        Well I’m thinking what shes saying will resonate (at least from her pov) with the swing/undecided voter more

        As you say it’ll resonate with the Nact voters anyway and when you throw in her basically saying there’ll more police then that’s always going to be a vote winner so shes doing a good job of plugging up the leaking votes holes and pitching to the missing million…or I could be completely wrong

        Like her or loathe her its good politics

        • Robert Guyton

          “good politics”?
          I presume you mean effective politics and that’s not something worthy of praise, the way you seem to believe it is. I suppose you, Pucky, might say a killer made good use of his knife, showed good knowledge of how to slaughter, was a good taker of a human life, given your lack of sensitivity to the suitability of some words. Collins bare-faced (sarc) efforts to redistribute blame are not good. Nasty would be a more suitable adjective. Craven? Despicable? Cheap-shot? Par for the course?

          • Puckish Rogue

            Good politics in relation to getting re-elected obviously

            • Robert Guyton

              So, “Good slaughterer” in relation to how quickly the victim died – have I read you right?

              • Puckish Rogue

                I don’t recall bringing up the subject of killing so I guess you can read it however you like…and you probably will

                • Has my analogy really flown that high over your head, Pucky?
                  Are you suffering a head cold today? My sympathies if that’s the case.

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    Naah I’m just not keen on your attempt to compare Jude Collins to a killer

                    • Which I’m not doing, but you can force the idea, if you choose to.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      If you say so, you could have used any example but you chose that one.

                    • weka

                      Ok, I’ll spell it out for your PR. RG isn’t comparing Collins to a killer, he is comparing your admiration for Collins’ political skill to someone who would admire a murderer’s skill with a knife. And thus suggesting that ‘good’ in not the appropriate adjective.

                      It’s not that hard an analogy to understand so I think we can assume from now on that if you don’t respond to that particular challenge to your ethics it’s because you have no defence.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Ok fine then depending on the definition:


                      2.1 Skilled at doing or dealing with a specified thing.

                      ‘I’m good at crosswords’

                      ‘he was good with children’

                      2Having the required qualities; of a high standard.

                      ‘a good restaurant’

                      ‘his marks are just not good enough’

                      So yes Jude Collins comments can be considered both good and not so good politics depending on the definition you wish to use

                    • weka

                      The killer had the skills and worked to a high standard.

                    • McFlock

                      Only in the most amoral way, and only if the sole purpose of a politician is to be re-elected.

                      Not that I’d expect it to occur to you that they had any other function beyond their own self interest.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  National’s policies are increasing poverty and through that increased death rates so, yeah, comparing them to killers is appropriate.

        • WILD KATIPO

          @ Puckish Rogue

          Its actually poor and divisive politics born out of an insecure personality. Why would anyone want to talk with duplicity and single out a demographic in a negative fashion to use as a fulcrum to retain a sector of voters such as she has done to advance her position – unless she was insecure.

          Don’t forget also she was stood down for a significant length of time by her own PM.

          That is not the profile of someone who is confident of her position and that she is working for all New Zealanders, – in fact, … its precisely the opposite.

          And is THAT the sort of model we want as politicians in this country ?… do we REALLY want such a devious, opportunistic personality like that that is quite willing and prepared to ride roughshod over a huge sector of our society?

          Do we really want politicians who scapegoat and denigrate large numbers of our fellow New Zealanders?

          Is this sorry excuse for a govt so ignorant of former politicians , history and policy’s such as the Mickey Joseph Savage era that made this country great that they are forced to display their devious vicious neo liberalism by criticizing and putting down their own country men and women???

          Is THAT the sort of people we want in power in New Zealand,… people who were implicated in Dirty Politics and corrupt practice?

          No thanks.

          Maybe the Mafia would like their style but judging by the growing numbers of critics of this govt among the public it definitely seems their days are numbered – hence the insecurity.

          • Robert Guyton

            We may have to ease up on Pucky a bit, he’s being flenched by all and sundry and he’s already suffering (I think) from a bad head-cold.

          • Draco T Bastard

            And is THAT the sort of model we want as politicians in this country ?… do we REALLY want such a devious, opportunistic personality like that that is quite willing and prepared to ride roughshod over a huge sector of our society?

            Well, I’d say that a majority of people don’t but a large number of National voters obviously do.

            The National voters that haven’t figured that that National constantly lies to them yet have some learning to do.

        • reason

          Judith Collins is a friend of slug boy slater …………. which while not telling us much tells us heaps about her …

          I’m unaware of her getting millions in charity or bail outs for any high risk bankrupt Investments ….. like key did when greed kept him invested in his old firm Merrill as it led the charge in going bankrupt and was at the center of the GFC ….

          This is a good description of his honest ‘work’ in earning his bank of america shares….”In the end, says Mehta, Bank of America’s fraud resulted in “one of the biggest reverse transfers of wealth in history – from pensioners to financiers.”

          ” $25 billion in federal bailout funds they received to acquire dying investment bank Merrill Lynch. Both firms were infamous for their exotic gambles and their systematic cutting of regulatory corners – meaning that the shopping spree had burdened Bank of America with a huge portfolio of doomed trades and criminal conspiracies.”


          Judith has much hard face and does it the chinese way….. where officials and party get their slice of the corruption …./

          “changes to ORAVIDA NZ LIMITED, 13 May 2011. ) Shareholders: Jing Huang, Julia Jiyan Xu, and Deyi Shi. (Source)

          11 June 2010: National Party receives $50,000.00 donation from Susan Chou. (Source)

          30 July 2010: National Party receives $150,000 donation from Susan Chou. (Source)

          18 November 2010: MILK NEW ZEALAND CORPORATION LIMITED* registered. Directors: Terry Lee and Jiang Zhaobai. (Source)

          22 December 2010: Government blocks bid by Natural Dairy to buy the 16 Crafar farms on ‘good character’ grounds.

          27 January 2011: KordaMentha accepts offer from Shanghai Pengxin International Group Ltd to buy Crafar Farms.

          31 May 2011: National Party receives $100,000 donation from Susan Chou. (Source)

          22 July 2011: ORAVIDA LTD registered. Shareholders: Jing Huang, Julia Jiyan Xu, and Deyi Shi. (Source)

          27 July 2011: ORAVIDA PROPERTY LTD changes name to KIWI DAIRY INDUSTRY LTD. Shareholder: Deyi Shi (Source)

          13 April 2011: Shanghai Pengxin lodges application with the Overseas Investment Office (OIO) to buy the Crafar farms.

          26 September 2011: Crafar farms receiver KordaMentha rejects a conditional NZ$171.5 million offer for 16 central North Island dairy farms from a group led by controversial former merchant banker Michael Fay.

          22 November 2011: National Party receives $50,0000 donation from Citi Financial Group. Shareholders: Yan Yang and Qiang Wei. (Source) (Source)

          22 November 2011: National Party receives $1,600 from Oravida NZ. (Source) (Source)

          26 November 2011: NZ General Election

          30 November 2011: National Party receives further $55,000 donation from Oravida NZ. (Source) (Source)

          27 January 2012: Government ministers approve Shanghai Pengxin’s application to purchase 16 Crafar farms.” https://fmacskasy.wordpress.com/2013/04/25/doing-the-business-with-john-key-heres-how-part-rua/


      • UncookedSelachimorpha 9.1.2

        And the other sort of Nat voter, poorer people who have been duped by Nat rhetoric, voting against their own interests.

    • Pucky, you believe National voters respond positively to claims like this one from Collins and the response from some people to what they feel is deeply cynical and unpleasant “politics” ? Have you an opinion on why we should regard the people who are about to, in your view, create “a bump in the polls for National” with anything other than disdain?

      • marty mars 9.2.1

        Puck agrees with Collins don’t you puck?

        • Puckish Rogue

          “I think theres probably less poor parents then what the right thinks and probably more then what the left thinks”

          • Kevin

            Based on..?

            • Puckish Rogue

              Opinion only

              The right want to overestimate the numbers of poor parents so they claim that the government is doing the best they can but for those pesky parents

              The left want to underestimate the numbers because they can then claim the government aren’t doing enough to help the small number of the unlucky few

              • Truly dizzying logic, Pucky. But you did say, “opinion”, so it matters little. Many commenters begin a statement of opinion with, “I believe”, or “I think”. Just sayin’

          • marty mars

            Yes a great non answer – true courage not.

      • Puckish Rogue 9.2.2

        I don’t have an opinion on why you should, or shouldn’t, regard those with disdain.

        In my always humble opinion, the average right wing voter probably thing over estimates the amount of poor parents so Jude Collins saying this will only confirm what they already think

        The average left wing voter probably under estimates the amount of poor parents so this, again, confirms what they already think

        I think theres probably less poor parents then what the right thinks and probably more then what the left thinks

        • Robert Guyton

          Pucky, you disappoint me. You are occasionally sharp(ish) but here, dull as dishwater. You’re ducking and feinting. What’s your opinion of people who rise to this rhetoric from Collins and I mean in terms of their response to this particular issue. Give us some sort of value judgement, Pucky. You know you can do it, you regularly do just that when describing people from outside of your own political tribe.
          (and it’s fewer Pucky, fewer poor parents. Less poor parenting, fewer poor parents). You are welcome.

          • Puckish Rogue

            “(and it’s fewer Pucky, fewer poor parents. Less poor parenting, fewer poor parents). You are welcome.”

            Really? You think pointing out an example of my poor grammar somehow makes my comment less valid, you knew what I was trying to say yet you decide to belittle me.

            Are you now going to go through everyones posts and point out their errors or is it just mine that’s worth pointing out and, if not why not?

            • Robert Guyton

              ” What’s your opinion of people who rise to this rhetoric from Collins and I mean in terms of their response to this particular issue. Give us some sort of value judgement, Pucky. You know you can do it, you regularly do just that when describing people from outside of your own political tribe.”
              This was my question, Pucky. Give it a shot, go on!

              (Fewer .v. less is something I’d point out to anyone, not to belittle (Oh, oh, you could use that, Pucky!) but to help nudge us all toward correct usage. You are tetchy today, Pucky and diversionary.)

              • Puckish Rogue

                There are certain, triggers if you like, that get me going. One of them is pointing out other peoples spelling or grammatical errors.

                It really irks me because if you understand what the other person is saying you don’t need to point out their mistakes.

                There are many reasons why someone might make those errors, maybe they didn’t do so well at school because the learning style taught to them didn’t suit them, maybe they’re dyslexic and it’s difficult for them, maybe they’re at work and are trying fit in a comment around work, maybe spelling and grammar isn’t something they consider important, maybe English is a second language or maybe its something else entirely

                All it tells me is the person pointing out other peoples mistakes are just sad, little people with inferiority complexes

                “Oh you made an argument I don’t agree with, let me show you how superior I am by pointing out the spelling or grammatical errors you made”

                • Okay, Pucky, I accept that having your grammactical erors pointed out to you really irks you. I won’t do that again.
                  Got time for this now?

                  ” What’s your opinion of people who rise to this rhetoric from Collins and I mean in terms of their response to this particular issue. Give us some sort of value judgement, Pucky. You know you can do it, you regularly do just that when describing people from outside of your own political tribe.”
                  This was my question, Pucky.”

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    Generally speaking they’re most likely misinformed. I’d suggest most people in NZ are generally fair minded, decent people.

                    So when people raise to rhetoric like this or Labours dog-whistling on Chinese names or Winstons…whatever it is Winston is doing at the moment I’d say its a reaction to fear of the unknown and/or basic ignorance

                    • “misinformed”

                      You mean ignorant? Of the facts?
                      Who’s responsible, do you think, Pucky, for the state of misinformation – “…most people in New Zealand…” or those providing the misinformation?

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      I wanted to say ignorant but unfortunately that word has been used negatively and I don’t mean it in a negative way

                      In most cases (but not all of course) the ignorance is down to the individual, its not helped by a media that chooses the side it wants people to take

                    • It’s a sorry thing, Pucky, isn’t it that when comparing your opinion on those issues I cited with my own, both of us must conclude that the other is ignorant. Sad state of affairs, really.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Well I also should have mentioned the possibility of deliberate ignorance as well

                      how many times on here has someone posted a link and the response has been something like:

                      “that site/newspaper/commentator is well known left/right wing therefore I won’t read it”

                • halfcrown

                  This is really off topic and no doubt will be moved to open mike. But I agree with you there Puck me ole mate 100%. It is not clever in fact makes one look like a smart arse pointing out others grammar or spelling errors, and as you say, providing you get your point of view across that is all that matters. You don’t have to agree with the point of view.
                  I have seen very well written English with perfect grammar, but in the end, you think to yourself, what the fuck is that person on about the English is spot on but the message is obscure

            • reason


              [I’m sure there is a political point in there somewhere but it’s too late at night to be wading through sexual violence and excrement references to find it and edit the comment so I’ve just deleted all of it. Dial back the abuse please – weka]

    • Groundhog 9.3

      …because what Collins said is correct, and most NZ’ers agree.

  10. Looking at the photo I thought this was a blog about the killer clowns


  11. Once was Tim now no longer 11

    Always the way with the Natzi/CT/Spinmeister: Use the exception to prove the rule.

  12. ianmac 12

    Actually I do know some sons of wealthy people who are rotten parents. Provided with material things but the kids have layers and layers of arrogance, selfishness and self-centredness.

    • Siobhan 12.1

      A well off parent may have addiction issues, may have a bad attitude to parenting, may be a (so called) ‘white collar’ criminal.
      The difference is that these issues can be mitigated with the use of nannies, private school, well equipped public school, good health care, relatives in a position to support the child (and the parents), and when things do go wrong they are treated more sympathetically by both the authorities and their immediate communities.

      • Colonial Viper 12.1.1

        Yep. Money helps compensate for certain human imperfections in many ways. The Left should get an extra $100 pw into the hands of all parents.

  13. fisiani 13

    Monetary poverty was not the only problem, she said.

    “I see a poverty of ideas, a poverty of parental responsibility, a poverty of love, a poverty of caring.”

    That’s a very honest statement about some in this country who are not fit to be parents. Instead of trying to demonise and misquote Judith how about acknowledging that she has a sad but valid point and then we can discuss how best to change this reality. After all no one chooses to have such parents.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 13.1

      Their numbers have increased so much during the last eight years that one obvious solution is to destroy this shit government.

      • fisiani 13.1.2

        Actually you are unsurprisingly completely wrong yet again.
        There has been no deterioration in income inequality for the last 8 years.
        Benefits have been raised by more than by any government in history.
        More people are employed now than at any time in NZ history.
        Net per capita GDP has risen in the last 8 years.
        All of this good news despite a global financial collapse and the destruction of Christchurch. If we do not have another calamitous earthquake the prospects for New Zealand look fabulous as we progress into the brighter future.

        • Muttonbird

          That didn’t take long. 😐

          • ropata

            watch the RWNJ cherry pick the only statistic that looks superficially OK
            meanwhile thousands of kiwis are suffering and SLEEPING. IN. CARS.

        • ropata

          what about *wealth* inequality?
          the ultra rich hide their income as a matter of course
          there has been a huge rise in COSTS that negate any income growth
          thanks to your greedy rentier property speculating mates
          vampire squid capitalism

          • Siobhan

            Average weekly household mortgage payments up 3.0 percent* since 2014. At the same time, rent payments increased 4.2 percent* (2015 figures)

            The report said the lowest 20 percent of earners spent 54 percent of their income on housing in 2015, compared with just 29 percent in the late 1980s.

            In my own region, the Hawkes Bay, the $18 a week rise in the minimum wage (in take-home pay) matched a $20 increase in average rent. Just hilarious. You almost wonder if the wage increase was a deal between landlords and the Government. Certainly the Accommodation Supplement would seem to be Landlord Welfare to compensate them for overinvesting in an unsustainable business model.

            I wonder if fisiani can follow these ‘subtle’ stats about inequality?? I suspect not.

        • DoublePlusGood

          Income inequality has gotten higher, benefits have not been raised by more than by any government in history, the next one is due to population growth and the last one is, outside of large recessions (which did tank the GDP in 2008-2009) the norm.
          Try harder.

      • mosa 13.1.3

        OAB How do you destroy this government ?
        Nothing has worked so far.

    • dv 13.2

      “I see a poverty of ideas, a poverty of GOVERNMENTAL responsibility, a poverty of love, a poverty of caring.”

      Fixed it

    • Here, Pucky, here’s an example of one of those voters you believe will help create a bump in the polls. What’s your opinion about fisiani’s comment? Good, do you think? Muttonbird (below) describes my view really well. What’s yours, I wonder?

      • Puckish Rogue 13.3.1

        “That’s a very honest statement about some in this country who are not fit to be parents. Instead of trying to demonise and misquote Judith how about acknowledging that she has a sad but valid point and then we can discuss how best to change this reality. After all no one chooses to have such parents.”

        I agree with this

        • Robert Guyton

          Of course you do. Do you also agree that Collins has chosen to focus on and broadcast ideas that are not particularly germane to the issue, not the vital factors, and used them to distract from those that are, excite those who want to find reasons other than the truly significant ones, the “key” causes, and provoke a base response in order to gain advantage to herself and the party she represents?

          • Puckish Rogue


            • Robert Guyton

              And do you have any opinion as to the quality of that behaviour from Collins, other than, “it’s good politics”? I’m hoping you will have something to say about ethics or leadership perhaps, maybe responsibility or compassion, I don’t know, something along those qualitative lines.

              • Puckish Rogue

                To save you some time I thought I’d ask myself some questions

                Do I agree with absolutely everything National says? No, no I do not

                Can anyone say they agree with everything their chosen, major, party says or does as well?

                Is she completely wrong? No she isn’t

                Does she make a point about the personal responsibility of parents? Yes she does

                Will this help National get re-elected and continue the good job they’re doing of running the country? Possibly

                Is it better for NZ that National gets re-elected and Lab/Greens don’t? Yes, yes it is

                Am I 100% happy about what National has to do to get re-elected? No.

                • “Am I 100% happy about what National has to do to get re-elected? No.”

                  Interesting soliloquy, Pucky. I’d love to hear more about those things National “has to do to get re-elected” that don’t make you happy, because it would help me, and others here too, I suspect, to understand what allowances and compromises you, a person from the rightwing and supporter of John Key and the National party, are able to make. I mean this quite sincerely. I think genuine comments from you would help us all understand each other better. Will you do it?

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    The first thing I’d be looking at is WFF and the second is means testing super…

                    • No concerns about Oravida (milk and kauri logs), the Saudi sheep deal, the dirty politics that came out of Key’s office, his relationship with Slater, the pony-tail pulling, Sky City deals, Mediaworks shenannigans….on and on it goes…nothing ring any bells of concern there for you, Pucky?

                    • Nothing on National’s pretense over climate change action, nothing around offering onshore and offshore blocks to the oil companies, none of those things stick in your craw at all?

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Thats quite a list so lets see

                      No concerns about Oravida (milk and kauri logs) – None

                      The Saudi sheep deal – Some

                      The dirty politics that came out of Key’s office and his relationship with Slater – A little

                      The pony-tail pulling – None and this is probably the least important of all

                      Sky City deals – None

                      Mediaworks shenanigans – None, I was wrong this is the least important

                      Nothing on National’s pretense over climate change action – None

                      Nothing around offering onshore and offshore blocks to the oil companies – None

                    • Yeah, thanks, Pucky – that gives me a much clearer idea of the kind of person you are.

                    • adam

                      I agree Robert, you get the feeling that Puckish has gone from smug to scared. He now dismisses creepy with a flick of his wrist and argues for more hate.

                      You missed the whole fact national have been quite poor at maintaining our international reputation. Actually I’m being generous using the word poor. I’m not sure anyone can think of a time when a NZ government has taken so many hits in the international press, from all you mentioned and more.

                      But, smug self righteous self loathers like PR will roll on with their love affair of this deeply ideological government and the antics of it’s strange ministers, led by their deeply creepy P.M.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Yes Adam NZ is doing so badly internationally:


                    • weka

                      Good link,

                      Victimisation rate – 3rd highest out of 30, with 21.5% of people aged 16 or more being victims[14][16]

                      Income Equality – 54th most equal, at 36.2 (Gini Index)

                      Unemployment rate – 48th lowest, at 4.0%.[3], which is out of date according to the reference, its 64th at 5.80% (2015)

                      Some notable omissions e.g. the youth suicide rate, child abuse rates.

                      I don’t expect you to care about those things though, so long as it’s easy to do business here.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Hi Weka, glad you liked it but you might have missed these:

                      Political freedom ratings – Free; political rights and civil liberties both rated 1 (the highest score available)

                      Press freedom – Ranked 8th for press freedom at 1.50

                      Literacy Rate – 10th equal at 99.0%

                      Unemployment rate – 48th lowest, at 4.0%

                      Global Peace Index – 4th at 1.221

                      Corruption – Least corrupt, at 9.4 on Corruption Perceptions Index

                      Top Country Award – New Zealand has won the honor two years in a row (2007, 2008) by Wanderlust Magazine

                      Good Country Index – Ranked 5th out of 195. Based on the Goodness of a nation

                      Better Life Index – Ranked 7th (2016) of the 34 OECD countries based on statistics and perceptions of quality of life

                    • weka

                      I didn’t miss those PR, but unlike you I think that those things should go hand in hand with the wellbeing of all people. And when they don’t, we have a moral obligation to do something about it. You on the other hand are ok with letting the other stats get worse and worse so long as you are alright jack.

                  • George Hendry

                    Thanks, Robert. Heartfelt 🙂

                    For your sheer persistence and hard work in eventually eliciting an appropriate response from PR.

                    (And PR : thanks, eventually, for the appropriate response.)

                    Many have assumed without saying so, that living in a democracy is easy, you just have to vote. Robert shows with this thread the sheer hard work it will take to eventually find the honesty in our leaders. when continuing to lie finally becomes more trouble than it’s worth to them.

    • Brigid 13.4

      There’s no discussion required. Collins has given the reason as “it’s just what some people do”
      So there ya go, you can stop worrying your little head about it.

      It’s just what some people do.

      • Robert Guyton 13.4.1

        Puckish Rogue said:
        “Ask me a straight forward question and I’ll give you a straight forward answer”

        Is it fewer apples or less apples?

        • inspider

          If Robert Guyton left the room would you say “there’s one less [deleted] in the room” or “there’s one fewer [deleted] in the room”?

          [Skirting with a short sharp ban there ] – Bill

        • Sacha


    • Michelle 13.5

      Yes it is an honest statement from a dishonest and greedy person and this is exactly the type of politics practiced by Trump and the National party, nasty and divisive and I note he has lots of support here in NZ why because we have lots of nasty divisive and selfish people here.

    • mauī 13.6

      “I see a poverty of ideas, a poverty of parental responsibility, a poverty of love, a poverty of caring.”

      A perfect description of our current rulers.

      • Paul 13.6.1

        “A poverty of ideas, a poverty of government responsibility, a poverty of love, a poverty of caring.”

        In one word.

    • Draco T Bastard 13.7

      It’s a great description of herself and the rest of National as well.

  14. Muttonbird 14

    Don’t the right love to strut about wearing their lack of compassion as a badge of honour. They are so proud of it.

    • Macro 14.1

      They do indeed – and they are admired by the poor souls who want “hard rulers”. These misguided individuals seem to think that the more you flog someone, the better a person they will become.

  15. KJT 15

    Abuse one child, jail.

    Abuse one hundred and fifty thousand, Knighthood.

    No wonder why National bought back feudal honours.

    • ropata 15.2

      the message resonates with rednecks, racists,, posh immigrants, and “respectable” upper middle class professionals who prefer to shit on the poor than admit there is anything wrong with 100% pure NZ

      • Paul 15.2.1

        I have the most contempt for upper middle class professionals.
        They bs about all their values, but when push comes to shove, the trip to Vietnam, the house refurbishment or the flash European car must be protected.
        Jim Mora and others of his ilk come to mind.

    • Colonial Viper 15.3

      The National Govt is responsible for about half the Kiwi kids in poverty. Let’s say 150,000.

      The Labour Govt is responsible for the other half of Kiwi kids in poverty. Let’s say about 150,000. These are the kids in poverty that National inherited from Labour.

      Total 300,000 Kiwi kids living in poverty.

      • left_forward 15.3.1

        How does that work? Its been over 8 years since Labour Govt!

        • McFlock

          Good point – half of Labour’s children in poverty would be adults now…

          • left_forward

            It was a very stupid comment from CV despite his time warp – the Labour Govt proactively worked towards reducing poverty, the Nats won’t even acknowledge poverty exists.

            • Chris

              “the Labour Govt proactively worked towards reducing poverty, the Nats won’t even acknowledge poverty exists.”

              When it comes to benefits and social welfare National and Labour have been a tag-team since the 1990s. Each has continued to decimate the benefit system from where the previous government left off, then hands the baton back when it’s the other’s turn.

              While both Labour and National have contributed equally, it’s Labour that should’ve known better because by taking that stance they’ve helped National move things along a lot quicker and a lot further to where they are now. What’s really concerning is that there’s absolutely no indication that things will be different if Labour just happens to be part of a government next year.

              • McFlock

                Thanks for the classic example of false equivalence and conflation of “poverty” with “benefits”.

                • Chris

                  Benefits are the lowest common denominator when it comes to poverty. If you don’t get that right then you’ll get nothing right.

                  Or would you prefer to continue to ignore the very poorest of the poor, even in discussions about poverty?

                  • McFlock

                    No I wouldn’t.

                    But focusing on benefits ignores the fact that when eople do what toriessay they’re supposedto do and get a job, they can still be very poor. And not every poor person qualifies for a benefit. So beneficiary numbers or benefit amounts do not equate to “poverty”.

                    Besides, your claim “Labour and National have contributed equally” is bullshit either way you count it.

                    • Chris

                      “Besides, your claim “Labour and National have contributed equally” is bullshit either way you count it.”

                      Your belief here is typical of the left’s head in the sand approach to what Labour did to benefits.

                    • Leftie

                      Well said +1 on your comments McFlock.

                    • Leftie

                      Lol that’s rich coming from you Chris.

                    • McFlock

                      Your belief here is typical of the left’s head in the sand approach to what Labour did to benefits.

                      Never said Labour was perfect, but facts accuse you of false equivalence.

                    • Leftie

                      Touche’ McFlock

                    • Chris

                      @Loftie – are you saying I’ve got my head in the sand when it comes to what the Fifth Labour government did to benefits? FFS, you’re the one who needed links to be convinced that Labour’s war-on-the-poor legislation even existed, and to *prove* Labour voted with the government on anti-beneficiary legislation in 2014. Fuckwit.

                      @ McFlock – that graph doesn’t address my comment. It doesn’t reflect what the nats and Labour put on the statute books. There are all sorts of variables that affect that information (which includes a spike during the Clark years, I might add). I’m not saying it’s wrong or that it’s irrelevant, just that it doesn’t address what I said, which was when it comes to benefits Labour and the nats have acted as a tag team since 1991.

                    • McFlock

                      @ McFlock – that graph doesn’t address my comment.

                      Yes it does, because you conflated “benefits” with “poverty”.

                      @ It doesn’t reflect what the nats and Labour put on the statute books.

                      no, it reflects the outcomes of those legislative changes, alongside policy changes that might have been purely regulatory.

                      @ There are all sorts of variables that affect that information (which includes a spike during the Clark years, I might add).

                      No, it includes a slight increase between the 1998 and the 2001 datapoints. It is not interval data.

                      @ I’m not saying it’s wrong or that it’s irrelevant, just that it doesn’t address what I said, which was when it comes to benefits Labour and the nats have acted as a tag team since 1991.

                      And focusing on “benefits” is focusing on only half of the topic you initially replied to, which is poverty. The working poor need to be remembered, because the main tory myth is that work gets you out of poverty. For 40-odd percent of poor people, it doesn’t.

                    • Leftie

                      +1 McFlock

                    • Leftie

                      If anything you are the fuckwit Chris, Nat fan troll.

    • weka 15.4

      comment of the day KJT.

  16. From Open Mike – was aom referring to the topic of this post. If so, I think it’s worth repeating here.

    aom 9
    13 October 2016 at 8:59 am
    Kim Hill is a breath of fresh air on RNZ’s Morning Report. This morning’s treasure was the interview with Judith Collins. Kim started by handing the Minister a shovel, then passed over replacements ones as Collins dug herself ever more deeply into the hole of her own making. The coup was letting the Minister ventilate non-stop at length then advising listeners where Judith Collins’ credibility could be checked.

    • tc 16.1

      Basic journalism at work, kim’s always worked to a standard the rest of the jonolists wouldn’t have a clue about.

    • weka 16.2

      e.g. JC says that people abuse their children because they were themselves abused. They become ‘bad parents’. KH asks where this intergenerational abuse comes from, what does JC attribute it to, where did it start? JC, and this is a quote (after a pause where she has to think about it)

      “to put it in a nutshell, that’s – what – some – people – do…”

      Thanks Kim, now we know that the Minister of Police thinks some people behave badly because they just do.

      Which makes sense you know. If some people just behave badly, you have to put them in prison, and may as well make some money out of it at the same time.


      edit, lolz, at the end KH says they will put the original speech transcript on the RNZ website so people can do a reality check as JC suggests.

      • Sacha 16.2.1

        Collins doubled down and claimed no link between crime and poverty at one stage in that interview. Unfit to be Police Minister with that degree of stupidity.

        Have to wonder what her parents make of how she’s turned out..

        • weka


          “I reject fully, and will always reject any links between any form of poverty in NZ and crime.”

          Stupid doesn’t even begin to describe her.

          • fisiani

            Being poor does not make you a criminal. No one can make you a criminal without your consent.
            Being poor is not an excuse for being a criminal.
            Judith Collins’s comments resonate with the public because they are true. The posters here just cannot accept reality.

            • Sacha

              All those academics who devote themselves to studying crime or poverty must be wrong, eh. Thank goodness for Saint Judy the benificent. We are truly blessed.

            • Anno1701

              “No one can make you a criminal without your consent.”

              what BS….

              where do you even get this stuff from ?

            • Robert Guyton

              No links between poverty and crime, you claim, fisiani. Well, no, you didn’t echo Collins’ claim, you made up one of your own, “Being poor does not make you a criminal”. Collins “rejects fully any links between any form of poverty and crime” if weka’s quote is accurate. In fact, her words don’t make sense. She should have said that she rejects that there are any causal links but hey, that’s how politicians speak when they don’t want to be pinned by their words, that is, accountable for their claims. In any case, the claim is wrong however one looks at it and I say one, because saying “you” would be wrong, as you seem unable to recognise the difference between truth and lies.

              • weka

                She was all over the place. At the start she says “I do not blame poverty on criminality”.

                Which is darkly funny, because I’m sure she didn’t meant to say that, but given National and herself behave like criminals I think we can also categorically say that criminality in NZ is a primary cause of poverty.

            • weka

              Being poor does not make you a criminal. No one can make you a criminal without your consent.
              Being poor is not an excuse for being a criminal.
              Judith Collins’s comments resonate with the public because they are true. The posters here just cannot accept reality.

              For the people with low emotional and social intelligence who believe such things, we can always look at this from a public health perspective. Instead of looking at who to blame (e.g. ‘excuse’) we can look at research which shows links. We can then respond with public health initiatives for the good of society e.g. if we reduce poverty and we see a reduction in crime, that benefits the good people in society not just the bad ones.

              Not sure what we would do about the emotionally/socially stupid people though.

            • Red Hand

              Governments can pass laws that make previously law abiding citizens criminals. Members of the Resistance in Germany were made criminals without their consent by the Nazi Government, as were citizens affected by the Nuremberg laws.

    • Macro 16.3

      Yes – I liked this acknowledgement from JC:

      “There is enough for every one. All they have to do is ask” or words to that effect.

      Good to hear that Judith – problem is you and you friends have all the wealth – so can the poor have some of it please?

  17. Guerilla Surgeon 17

    Well according to radio New Zealand, research shows just the opposite. But when has research ever engaged a right-wing politician? Or any politician for that matter. Their general attitude towards research is “I want to do such and such, find me some research that supports it.”

  18. “I see a poverty of ideas, a poverty of parental responsibility, a poverty of love, a poverty of caring.”

    I see a poverty of just out and out intelligence on the part of all of society. We go out of our way to be ignorant of the facts.
    The information is out there for those with half a brain, if you have enough smarts to fuck, you have enough smarts to understand we are fucked 😉
    ….. Ho hum …. The last time the environment was at 400 ppm CO2 and 2 ppm CH4 there were no children on the planet, simply because if they could have been born they would have lasted only days in the environment that would have existed back then.
    Once the ice and low temperature oceans are gone 95+% of all current life will also be gone, humans are going to be well and truly gone before it gets to that point, With something like 3 years survival if/when the bees go for one thing.
    The last human generation could be 10 years old now, and that is if we are lucky,every child is being born into poverty now, poverty of clean air, water, food and security, and EVERY new parent doesn’t give a fuck, if they did, simply they would not be parents.
    I’m guessing the penny should drop within the next 5 years at best (ignoring ww3) the pregnant will be look upon as fools, and the newborn with pity (which I do now).
    If a mother had true love for their children they wouldn’t have them, birth is ego driven bullshit.
    The days of “Little House on the Prairie’ and “Good night John Boy” are over folks, it’s 22After.com / The Road for all of us
    http://www.guymcpherson.com as just one example, this should be compulsory reading for prospective parents, but no … like I said breeding is ego driven BS and parents just do not want to know. … a bit like Kiwi Savers

  19. shorts 19

    Collins is horrid…. yet here comments aren’t designed for those of us who are offending by her words…. rather they resonate with a lot of those who vote national – the personal responsibility mob (who are anything but when it comes to themselves)… the angry ugly mob that actively dislike poor people

    as much as its great Collins is taken to task by RNZ and Kim Hill her message isn’t for us nor the RNZ audience

    Another event example is the “slashing of immigration numbers” which is actually a tiny decrease for a very short time… I can see through the bullshit but many only hear and see “numbers slashed” and think good on them

    its very depressing knowing it is just so hard to get facts over soundbites to many

  20. This from Collins is certainly true:

    Monetary poverty was not the only problem, she said.

    “I see a poverty of ideas, a poverty of parental responsibility, a poverty of love, a poverty of caring.”

    This from Micky Savage is also true:

    … 40% of kids living in poverty has parents who are working [so] it is clear that the causes are with wages and systems and the cost of housing…

    The government can’t do much about shit parents, which is of course why Collins prefers to dwell on that particular cause of poverty. However, the government could do a lot about low wages, poor working conditions and skyrocketing housing costs, and in theory has a responsibility to do something about those things – which is of course why Collins doesn’t mention them. As Robert Guyton points out above, there’s a big difference between “effective” politics and “good” politics.

    • BM 20.1

      Why can’t the government do anything about shit parents?

      if you’re receiving the DPB or WFF, part of the requirement should be that you have to do compulsory courses on budgeting and parenting.

      • shorts 20.1.1

        the govt has very little interest or input into how the rich raise their children….

        It is only concerned with labelling the poor as shit parents

        • BM

          You don’t think it would help the less well off if they did budgeting and parenting courses.?

          This is not to say all poor people are shit parents who don’t know how to raise their kids, but there are certainly some dud ones that could probably do with some guidance and attitude adjustments.

          The only way to catch the bad ones and be fair is to put every one under the spotlight,

      • Muttonbird 20.1.2

        Can’t. They are stripping funding for budgeting services.


      • adam 20.1.3

        What has this government done about your shit parents BM?

        Awful argument ‘ant it?

      • Psycho Milt 20.1.4

        Why can’t the government do anything about shit parents?

        Many reasons. It’s not as simple as “OK, so you have fetal alcohol syndrome, you never bonded with any parent and you were raised in an environment of neglect, violence and verbal/psychological abuse, but no excuses – after undergoing these courses you’ll be an excellent parent or we’ll cut off your benefit.” That can’t and won’t work for obvious reasons. Or, for the ones who are shit parents because they just don’t give a shit, how do you make someone give a shit? Most of them don’t give a shit because life’s already thrown at them way worse things than anything the government might do to them.

        I can envisage the government doing something about shit parents in the sense of getting them before they’re parents and making sure they’re well equipped with contraception, training in what it’s for, and compelling reasons to believe causing a pregnancy will have bad consequences for them, but that’s a political minefield and likely to have only limited success. Much better to concentrate on things that actually are the government’s responsibility.

    • weka 20.2

      “The government can’t do much about shit parents,”

      Yes and no. If part of that cohort are bad parents because of intergenerational abuse, and there is a link between that and poverty (which doesn’t meant that all intergenerational abuse is caused by poverty), then relieving poverty gives individuals and families more chance to get out of that cycle.

      This from Collins is certainly true:

      Monetary poverty was not the only problem, she said.

      “I see a poverty of ideas, a poverty of parental responsibility, a poverty of love, a poverty of caring.”

      Straight out psychological projection from Collins. National run an intentional abusive welfare system that includes all those things she names (except maybe the ideas, they have plenty of ideas they’re just shit ones that don’t work).

      • Psycho Milt 20.2.1

        It probably is true that fixing the things they can fix (and are actually responsible for fixing, not that you’d ever know it from listening to them) would lower the number of shit parents over the long term. It’s of limited effect, though – I grew up at a time of full employment and a generous welfare system, and there were plenty of wasters and munters having kids and turning them into future wasters and munters back then too.

        • weka

          AFAIK we still had poverty in the 1970s, but there has been an increase and I would say that compounds problems exponentially.

          No-one is saying poverty is the only factor, so we /the govt can look at multiple factors for crime, and then see how poverty exacerbates that. I’d make a connection with neoliberalism too. Tell enough people to be selfish and you create more of a sense of entitlement to be selfish e.g. steal from people.

    • mauī 20.3

      The Government can do things to help bad parents and make them better parents. But they are opposed to doing constructive things.

      The current system throws people off benefits and forces people into work.
      The current system forcibly takes children off their parents.
      The current system doesn’t rehabilitate parents who get into trouble with the law.
      The current system has stripped away funding for many support services.
      The current system reinforces shit wages and devalues employees.
      The current system has forced people from their homes.
      The current system doesn’t look at the problems parents have holistically.

      • Red 20.3.1

        excuses, excuses , why must there be a system to be a good parent ? Just be a bloody good parent , end of story

  21. ropata 21


    The Collins Cycle:
    1. Glib and offensive squawk
    2. Claim to have been taken out of context
    3. More clarifications
    4. Fauxpology
    We're at 2
    — Lew (@LewSOS) October 12, 2016

    • Muttonbird 21.1

      At 3 now.

      This was a doozy though and made me laugh.

      Prime Minister John Key has indicated police numbers will increase, after lobbying from Collins.

      The opposition lead by Winston Peters, and exploding crime stats, forced Key into this – Collins had nothing to do with it.

      • Puckish Rogue 21.1.1

        Also theres an election coming up

        • Muttonbird

          Yep. Further evidence this is a reactionary government which relies on the opposition to point the way.

          • Red

            Also politically smart, next year will be even better with big surpluses increasing social spending and investment , not tax cuts from the centre left national government. 4 more years muttonbird I am afraid

            • Muttonbird

              From that you’d have to say it’s a very powerful opposition to have dragged the government that far left.

              I agree – the opposition have done a good job by getting some victories for New Zealanders in the form of slowly improving protections for workers and increasing housing standards but there’s still much to be done.

            • Paul

              I am afraid for the weak, the poor and the vulnerable if this wretched government and its selfish, mean-spirited and corrupt ministers get re-elected.

  22. Roz 22

    She is a creep and i dont understand why the papakura people keep voting her in . Neverddone much to help the underpriveliged in our area.

    • DoublePlusGood 22.1

      It’s the wealthier people on the west side of the motorway, and karaka, and in the rural areas, that keep voting for her. Not those who are underprivileged.

  23. Stuart Munro 24

    It’s a confession of incompetence really.

    The neo-lib line is that they can create a ‘rising tide that lifts all boats’.

    But they have not and cannot – so they blame the people they have failed.

    For shame Judith, you vicious and brutish lout. Your lies have found you out.

    • Once was and others etc 24.1

      “The rising tide that lifts all boats”
      That neolib spin line that’s now been around for over a decade. It was bullshit then and it’s bullshit now. It doesn’t take account of the very many boats that had fucking great holes in the bottom requiring the occupants to keep bailing for their lives just to tread water.
      “Well” (says the neo-lib) “you’ll just have to bail faster – you have a personal responsibility. Don’t you know I’m the self made man. Why in my day, I had to walk 5 miles to school every day, and 5 miles back. Look at Paula – she pulled herself up by the bootstraps and didn’t rely on the State for her start in life. And so did John! He had a particularly hard start in life. And if Paul, and John and I can do it, so can anybody!” etc., etc.

      • Stuart Munro 24.1.1

        In fact neo-lib economics can work – but like Keynesian interventions, that requires hard work and scrupulous discipline.

        The Gnats are much too lazy, stupid and venal to be bothered to make their policies work.

        Blaming their victims is so much easier.

        It’s time MPs took a massive pay cut – they’re not taking their cushy jobs seriously.

        • Puckish Rogue

          Interestingly enough I agree with this: “It’s time MPs took a massive pay cut” I’d also support a drop of MPs down to 99

          • Stuart Munro

            60 would be plenty.

            • Sacha

              You need bigger numbers to drive the select committees where a lot of the detailed scrutiny of Bills happens to improve them before they become law.

              • Stuart Munro

                With respect, those processes have failed to protect many things that were important to us. Process is not, in the absence of sincerity, a guarantor of anything of value.

      • halfcrown 24.1.2

        That my friend is fucking shit hot. Says it all doesn’t it

  24. Bob 25

    “At the beginning of the current term John Key warned against National MPs being arrogant and out of touch. Yesterday Judith Collins showed how arrogant and out of touch with reality was.”
    Agreed, I have defended some of her actions in the past, but this is on par with saying all Muslims are terrorists. She is acting more and more arrogant and needs to take yet another turn sitting on the back benches. Let’s hope the people of Papakura don’t give her a way back next time.

    • Sacha 25.1

      She may be reacting to the opposing Boag faction being disgraced in the Auckland local elections. Poor emotional management.

  25. McFlock 26

    Ok, for the sake of intellectual exercise, let’s say that her completely warped description of the problems facing poor parents is correct

    Monetary poverty: well, give them money then. Problem solved.

    Poverty of ideas: it’s called “education”. It’s called “making your service accessible”. Get out there and give them ideas, show them that other ways are possible

    Poverty of parental responsibility: Well then, where’s CYF or whatever it’s called this year? Blaming a poverty of parental responsibility simply increases the governmental responsibility to those children

    A poverty of love, a poverty of caring: again, if neglect or truancy is involved, where’s the government? Where’s the school? Where’s the counselling? The proportion of parents who don’t love their kids is minescule, and the number who can avoid loving their kids while avoiding neglect and abuse is even fewer. And generally has nothing to do with monetary poverty, so wtf is it even being mentioned?

    All she’s done is listed her government’s failings, not its excuses.

    • ropata 26.1

      CYFS has been de-scoped to be a “ministry of vulnerable children” so I guess they are no longer interested in helping parents / families

  26. The New Student 27

    It would be nice if public services could provide the public with services that help all of us to live fulfilling, productive lives

  27. Morrissey 28

    Judith Collins is a far more unpleasant version of THIS WOMAN…


    • Paul 28.1

      Mora and the Panel ran out of time to discuss the issue.
      Jim’s Tory leanings meant it was a topic worth dodging.
      Much better to talk about the usual frippery.

  28. Morrissey 29

    I heard that, Paul. I was impressed by the Panelist James Elliott, who eloquently summed up this nasty little episode. Judith Collins, he said, is projecting.

    The other Panelist, Lisa Scott, said something anodyne and not particularly intelligent. Jim Mora, in the same segment, actually stated, without any sign that he knew even slightly what he was talking about, that the notorious Three Strikes Law is not usually applied unfairly in the United States.

    I don’t think his comments are mere frippery; I think he is not just complacent and thoughtless but deeply nasty, and irresponsible in his statements. He treated Collins’s ruthless rhetoric as though it deserved serious consideration instead of rejection; when challenged on this behaviour in the past, he has always waved away objectors—and there are many—by saying he’s playing the devil’s advocate.

  29. JNZ 30

    Her victims mostly don’t vote.

    Her supporters do.

    She’s safe, tragically.

  30. Paul 31

    Michael O’Brien nails it.

    ‘If we’re serious about tackling crime, we need to tackle poverty’

    Studies from around the world tell us several important things about poverty and crime. Poverty is linked with crime. Those who experience poverty are much more likely to be the victims of crime than those in more affluent communities. As a British review of the research noted: “Most children raised in poverty do not become involved in crime, but there are higher victim and fear of crime rates in disadvantaged areas”.

    That said, there is good evidence that, compared with their more affluent peers, children brought up in poverty are more likely to be reported as having behavioural problems, more likely to be reported for aggressive and/or risk-taking behaviour, more likely to be excluded from school, more likely to be the victims of criminal behaviour, more likely to grow up in communities with limited social and recreational opportunities and facilities.

    Two important points need to be made about this evidence:

    If we are serious about tackling crime then we need to tackle poverty

    First, none of the research links these outcomes and behaviours with bad parenting by parents who don’t care. It is the poverty of lives, experiences and opportunities that is critical. Put simply, children and families need the resources to enable them to have a full life in which children are given every possible opportunity to grow and develop.

    The UK research indicates that poverty is identified as an important part of the context of crime, while US research goes further, indicating that poverty causes crime.

    Whether it is context or cause, if we are serious about tackling crime then we need to tackle poverty as part of the response.

    Of course, we have seen nothing from this government which indicates they are really serious about tackling poverty. It is much easier to tackle the poor and to blame them for poverty, and for crime.

    Poverty is expensive

    Second, both crime and poverty are expensive economic and social failures.

    There are now good calculations of the costs of crime and the costs of poverty. Reducing poverty is seen as an important part of reducing the costs of poverty. If we are really serious about cutting the costs of crime, then we will need to be serious about reducing poverty.

    The personal and social advantages are clear. So are the economic advantages.


  31. Grant 32

    She is so concerned about this and other issues in her electorate that immediately after the last election she moved even further away from it to Herne Bay I believe. Very reminiscent of Marie Antoinette in her behaviour. “Let them eat cake”.

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