Immigration debate – Peters goes full racist

Written By: - Date published: 7:03 am, April 27th, 2017 - 357 comments
Categories: im/migration, racism, winston peters - Tags: , , ,

Yesterday Winston Peters chucked a gallon of petrol onto the smouldering immigration debate:

NZ Herald ‘Alternative Facts’ Misleading Over Immigration

Press Release: New Zealand First Party
Rt Hon Winston Peters

New Zealand Herald propaganda written by two Asian immigrant reporters

Stop right there because you’ve already lost. Trying to discredit the writers because of their ethnicity is a full-blown racist attack. Just in case anyone thought Peters was mellowing with age, this is a sharp reminder of the depths that he can sink to.

Just about everyone has rightly condemned Peters for this, from the editor of The Herald, to the journalists themselves, to the Race Relations Commissioner, to ACT, to any number of journalists and commentators. Update: Reactions from Little and English here.

Peters should have known that such nonsense would completely undermine whatever point he was trying to make:

stating the top five source nations for work visas are not Asian is completely wrong and based on flawed analysis, says New Zealand First Leader and Northland MP Rt Hon Winston Peters.

“The reporters Lincoln Tan and Harkanwal Singh base their defective analysis on data from arrival/departure cards (which doesn’t disclose where the applicant originally came from), not on the number of work visas issued, outstanding or yet to be acted upon by their departure. … “The NZ Herald does not make it known that Statistics New Zealand publish data by previous country of residence, not country of citizenship, so entering from Australia does not make them Australian which is the flimsy conclusion the two Herald reporters relied upon.

“MBIE has the information so why aren’t they independently telling the public the truth.

“The main source countries for work visas are Asian countries – not the UK, Germany, Australia, South Africa and the US as the NZ Herald so erroneously and irresponsibly claims.

Ministry of Business Innovation and Employment statistics for the top source countries are:
Family work visas granted 2015/16: India (7720), China (4012), Philippines (3216), UK (2566).
Outstanding temporary work visas as at June 30, 2016: India (25,479), UK (15,040), China (12,192), Philippines (11,980).
Essential skills visas granted 2015/16: Philippines (5408), India (4812), UK (3686).
Residence approvals 2015/16: China (9360), India (8498), UK (4934), Philippines (4614).
Student visas granted 2015/16: China (25,931), India (19,920), South Korea (4888), Philippines (3996), Japan (3604).

Tan and Singh reply comprehensively, including with respect to the data:

Statistics New Zealand’s release of permanent and long-term migration data today highlighted “record migration levels”, as it has for the past six months. This is the data mentioned by Labour leader Andrew Little when he discussed changes to immigration numbers and quoted by Immigration Minister Michael Woodhouse in his speech on changes to the work visa category. It is also the data we used to show where people on work visas are coming from and how that compares to student visas.

If, as his release says, Peters has a problem with collecting data from “arrival cards”, that’s something that should be taken up with Statistics NZ. Perhaps then political parties can stop using “record migration” figures which come from the same data.

It’s important to understand the state of immigration in NZ, and its important to understand the different data sets with their strengths and limitations. Peters could have made that point and it would have been a useful contribution. Instead he went for the cheap dog-whistle, probably assuming that he would pick up more votes than he lost. I hope he’s wrong.


Related reading: A brief glossary of terms politicians use in the immigration debate

357 comments on “Immigration debate – Peters goes full racist”

  1. ‘ It’s important to understand the state of immigration in NZ, and its important to understand the different data sets with their strengths and limitations. Peters could have made that point and it would have been a useful contribution. Instead he went for the cheap dog-whistle, probably assuming that he would pick up more votes than he lost. I hope he’s wrong.’
    …………………………………………………………………..
    Then again to be fair to Peters , it could be argued that ex nationals now citizens in this country may have their own vested interests in accentuating their particular take on those statistics they presented for publication . And as stated above , – there was another statistical side untold by the NZ Herald which Peters highlighted. So fairs fair in that case.

    We’ve seen more than enough of that sort of twisting the facts under this govt to deny problems of its own making over the last 9 years and who’s to say this isn’t more of it in an election year.You are dealing with a deceptive and corrupt govt that will use MSM and its agents against its opposition at will . Dirty Politics was just one example.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 1.1

      It doesn’t really matter how you read the statistics if the conclusions you draw from them are completely wrong. Or in Peters’ case, predetermined, racist, and wrong.

      High levels of new arrivals put pressure on infrastructure. Well duh! Who was it that failed to anticipate that? Imagine if we had some sort of central body that could plan for such contingencies.

      • WILD KATIPO 1.1.1

        Back in the 1950s we had the Dutch wave of immigration. Back then they were given 1 or 2 options of where to settle. That was to last around two years and then they were free to move to where ever in the country. And typically , the options given were NOT in the big city’s but in the provinces. This was to ensure it avoided the Auckland fiasco and to encourage getting to grips with all facets of NZ culture.

        The Dutch were successful migrants and flourished here. Many starting up their own businesses. But only so many were accepted as immigrants.

        I wonder hypothetically – if that many existed , and proportionate to populations migrated here – if several million New Zealanders suddenly all decided to migrate to New Delhi or Beijing all at once , – that at first they would be treated as a novelty ,… then ,.. after time and the same sort of pressure was put on infrastructure as in Auckland that is occurring right now .. that the natives there would not start to become resentful.

        Why should New Zealanders be expected to be so much more ‘ tolerant’ than any other groups all the time? And do we really have to accept the globalists notion of ‘ multiculturalism ‘ complete with its subtle notions of being automatic racists if we don’t?

        I notice a New Zealander cannot buy land in either Fiji or China – the latter we are supposed to be in a reciprocal free trade agreement with.

        I don’t believe Peters is a racist.

        Peters is a nationalist in many ways and I think people who don’t like him are using this as an accusation against him. I also like the way he seems to believe in free speech – unlike many other craven cowards that sprinkle our political spectrum who act like they are constantly walking on eggs so as not to cause offence.

        There was once a man called Neville Chamberlain who was just like them.

        Then there was another man called Winston.

        • Enough is Enough 1.1.1.1

          You don’t believe Winston is a racist Wild Katipo – Really?

          What other explanation for someone who opens their election campaign with this joke:

          “As they say in Beijing, two Wongs don’t make a white”

          • WILD KATIPO 1.1.1.1.1

            And Im sure there’s been a lot of snide and contemptuous remarks and jokes about Trade Unionists and Leftists and poor people behind closed doors in right wing party’s as well.

            But lets get this in context shall we, ?

            How many years ago was that – and yes I recall it. Years back.

            And when was it that we lost our sense of humour simply because someone is Chinese or Indian and quite different from our culture ?

            Do I need to remind people that its OK for Kiwis and Aussies to sledge each other mercilessly and tell sheep jokes yet that’s all good and ‘ matey’ …

            But somehow Chinese or Indians or any other culture are suddenly ‘ different’ and beyond any local colloquialisms simply because they are Chinese or Indian?

            And there’s a word for that : its called being an inverse racist. And if reality isn’t what someone built up in their heads well welcome to the real world.

            There’s a saying for that as well :

            Harden up.

            And finally a word for the wise :

            If you cant stand the heat – get out of the kitchen , there’s other places to live than just NZ if you don’t like it. And if you go to live in most other country’s of the world you better get up to speed with the lingo and accepted attitudes real fast because if you don’t – they are not going to be half as accommodating as we try to be. Most of them could care less about what you think.

            • Enough is Enough 1.1.1.1.1.1

              Are you suggesting that racist jokes is what our immigrants need to “get up to speed with”?

              Is that really our “lingo and accepted attitudes”?

              You seem to live in a different New Zealand to me.

              • Don’t be simplistic- you know as well as I do other country’s have jibes at foreigners of rivalry .

                Don’t play the naive game with me either.

                As for ‘ getting up to speed’ on considering migrating to a new country , – that’s the business of all prospective immigrants to do – not those already born and bred as citizens in the prospective migrants destination.

                It cant be helped if reality is different from what they have been led to believe. And it is not the problem of the people of that country in which they chose to migrate , either.

                You take your life in your hands when you venture away from your home country – everyone who’s ever traveled knows that.

                Try it. Migrate to any east European country or Slavic country or even South American country . See how well you fit in – or if they have even ever heard of a country called New Zealand. Don’t just do an ‘ easy’ cop out country like an English speaking Anglo dominated country like England or the USA or Australia – go to Mongolia and have a go instead.

                That’ll test your cherished theory’s about how we are all ‘ the same’.

                Try and grapple with the nuances of their society and understand their political views. Then try and understand their issues , their in – jokes and their prejudices.

                ‘Walk a mile in their moccasins’ ,… to coin a Native American phrase and see how well you do. And apart from boasting of a superficial familiarity and knowledge of their culture and what makes them uniquely different , report back on what makes you think you are ‘ up to speed ‘ on their unique issues.

                I’d guarantee it’d take you almost a lifetime to really understand and emphasize with the way they think and their attitudes.

                Until then , – your just an outsider looking in being a casual observer.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  So you’re saying Pākehā should all just go home then?

                  • I would say that ‘ Pakeha’ have stayed long enough to at least gain a respect for Maori culture – but not without many instances of injustice and bloodshed on both sides.

                    And I say ‘ BOTH SIDES’ because that was EXACTLY how it was , – unencumbered by later – and particularly post 1984 – paid for revisionist historians .

                    And that is a 150 year plus historical evolution of the history of the development of the modern nation state of New Zealand – not a mere 9 year term of the National party in encouraging irresponsible immigration policy’s to provide a source of cheap labour for pecuniary gain for certain sectors of this society to exploit.

                    The extremist and emotive historical question you posited bears no resemblance whatsoever to the modern issue at hand regarding excessive immigration – barring a tenuous philosophical questioning on the morality or ethics of the modern nation state and its sovereign right to legislate and determine just how many foreigners can enter its own borders and on what conditions they may enter.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      excessive immigration

                      Insufficient planning.

                      a source of cheap labour

                      Low wages are a consequence of employment law, not the number of expats.

                      how many foreigners does it take to change a Pākehā?

                    • Again … this is NOT a topic about ‘ expats’ .

                      Did you take notice of that ?

                      Its about Peters giving the data set that balanced up an obviously biased and some would say deliberately misleading data set produced by the NZ Herald .

                      Why is that a problem for you ?

                      You put in italics ‘ excessive immigration’ , underneath you put ‘a source of cheap labour’ … so far so good…

                      Then you make the error of stating ” Low wages are a consequence of employment law, not the number of expats.”

                      When the issue is clearly NOT about the number of ‘ expats’ at all. It is a combination of ‘ employment laws’ and the huge numbers of immigrants entering this country un-monitored.

                      You obviously are trying the same sort of idiotic deflection techniques as Gosman and BM when you state the ridiculous as in:

                      ” how many foreigners does it take to change a Pākehā?”

                      Not even worth serious consideration of anyone’s time.

                      What a moron.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      @WK, the phrases in italics are your own words, the rest, my rejoinders.

                      Eg: you blame “excessive immigration”, I point to insufficient planning.

                      Expats and immigrants are the same thing.

                      It is a combination of ‘ employment laws’ and the huge numbers of immigrants entering this country un-monitored.

                      Say whut now? It’s the lack of monitoring* that’s the issue? Well that’s more-or-less what I said: crap employment law and no plan.

                      *did you mean border control, or something else?

                  • Sanctuary

                    “Pakeha should go home?”

                    What, you mean back to Hawkes Bay? How will that fix anything?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      It was a kind of ‘tough love’ thought experiment, as though the systematic victimisation of an entire people might resonate somehow.

                      Edit: no, wait, that’s the narrative isn’t it: we’re all victims here /sarc.

                    • What OAB fails to recognise is that we are no longer a colonial experiment.

                      We are now a modern nation state that can determine and regulate the influx of immigration at will. And no amount of rhetorical or philosophical or sarcastic comments dressed up as ‘concern for all people ‘ can disguise that reality.

                      If OAB truly wishes for fairness, he/ she would be far better off campaigning for a greater amount of refugees than advocating rich immigrants to be able to settle here.

                      I notice that OAB’s comments on refugees are mysteriously lacking, which could so easily be misconstrued as advocating that only rich immigrants or those with certain skills level need apply.

                      Another glaring example of the simplistic arguments of the so – called ‘ Left’ in all its glaring ignorance and naivety.

                • Foreign waka

                  Wild Katipo, you are hitting a nerve you know that, don’t you?
                  Just wanted to say that most immigrants are under no illusion, they know that are they ones that will have to do the hard yards establishing themselves in the community. If their features won’t be an instant recognition factor, any accent once they start speaking sure will. None of which will win favors.
                  In many cases the motivation is to create a better life for the next generation so any indignation is always weight up against that goal.
                  PS.: I like your suggestion re Mongolia. I think some Suutei tsai could be quite an eye opener 😉

                  • Well its just blunt reality and the feeling I get first for our own people , – the New Zealanders. .. I would wish that we had the land mass and financial resources to be all things to all people but then reality hits home.

                    I see what has happened to far too many Kiwis and reckon that before we try and patch up the worlds problems we’ve got to deal with our own home front.

                    And we are all different and diverse,… that’s part of the beauty of the human race. But human beings are not perfect , some are deceitful while others are genuinely looking to improve their lot,… and some seek to migrate to do that… but we are finite in resources and of limited ability to absorb a large influx of people.

                    Therefore – unfortunately , – we have to be measured in approach , … because we are a small country in population and financial resources by world standards ,..and need to resist the motives of those who only seek to gain advantage for themselves only at the expense of of the majority.

                    Such are the neo liberals.

                    This is why I advocate a quota system on each country and a total quota system per annum of all country’s combined… more as a mechanism for self preservation than anything.

                    And I also dislike the emphasis on judging immigrants by the skills or amount of cash that they posses – there are many wonderful people who are simply semi skilled workers. And they deserve a shot at a new beginning as much as the wealthy.

                    However in regards to refugees and their family’s , – they are an entirely different category to which I believe , … though numerically smaller than many current NZ immigration demographics , … are actually more important and deserving on a humanitarian basis , –
                    and because of the sometimes severe life experience’s and hardships that they have endured , … they deserve that second chance that we could give them.

                    I cannot think of a more deserving and appreciative group than refugees.. from war or whatever… to be nurtured and given a new start in life in this peaceful country.

                    At least then the motives would be pure and in keeping with our once egalitarian ideals… that being of a fair shake for all people,… and not just for the wealthy.

                    We would truly gain many wonderful , loyal people by increasing our refugee quotas.

                    And not simply exacerbate an already antagonistic , overly competitive job market that already is spiraling down towards the lowest common denominator beyond the minimum wage level .

              • KJT

                Some of the best ones I have heard have been from Chinese.
                Pretty good at taking the piss.

        • Charmaine 1.1.1.2

          Well said. Bravo.

      • Bill 1.1.2

        I’m just going to throw in (again) the fact that New Zealand needs to do a huge amount of labour intensive work across all it’s major infrastructures (power and water supply networks, housing, roading and rail etc). Maybe someone should work out the balance on that – work needing done versus available labour versus potential coping capacity of various infrastructures? Then set down a list of priorities to be worked through.

        Of course, no-one will.

        NZ could shut down completely – become a wee fortress – and within about a generation (maybe a bit more) the country will be in utter chaos as aging, inadequate and insufficient infrastructure ‘falls over’ because it’s neither built nor designed with global warming in mind.

        • WILD KATIPO 1.1.2.1

          With the deconstruction of rural centers and provinces and the demographic generally migrating to the city’s for employment , – kicked off by the 1984 neo liberal incursion by the 4th Labour govt , … it was then that we first started to see the stresses put on our infrastructure in the big centers.

          33 years later the problem is now coming to a head.

          Worsened by Nationals use of rampant , unchecked immigration as a short term vote catching mechanism and to suppress wages in favour of corporate interests.

          There once was a time when NZ was the envy of many in the world. That was before 1984 when we had a high standard of living, award labour rates , a welfare state that functioned, protected industry,s and thus protected workers, a fairer taxation system etc…

          That’s all changed.

          It is now all been reversed. And where taxation and SOE’s once guaranteed a decent infrastructure that could cope by and large, now it doesn’t and cannot and it wont. Not with so many services being privatised and seeking profit only as the bottom line.

          Let alone adapting for climate change scenarios.

          It is an obscenity that we have so many unemployed and even more on minimum wages in dead end jobs and yet we are still being sold the lie that we somehow ‘ need’ all this immigration.

          Perhaps if we saw a return of award rates and realistic wages coupled with free education for all NZ nationals, and incentives for workplace training for employers we would not have to have to pretend the neo liberal lie that we ‘ need’ all these immigrants in the first place.

          There once was a time when NZ hospitals were staffed almost exclusively by New Zealanders for example – as were most other essential services. And they were paid well , their jobs were secure and their offspring could aspire to more than just flipping hamburgers at MacDonalds in a dead end job working for a minimum wage.

          • Gosman 1.1.2.1.1

            Given we used to have many of those things you think were vital to a strong economy how come we were in such a mess in 1984 and made hardly any world class products and services outside Beef, Dairy and Wool?

            • WILD KATIPO 1.1.2.1.1.1

              ” Given we used to have many of those things you think were vital to a strong economy how come we were in such a mess in 1984 and made hardly any world class products and services outside Beef, Dairy and Wool? ”

              ………………………………………………….

              Its the narrative of neo liberal supporters such as yourself Gosman that always love to twist the facts.

              Empirical evidence that anyone can instantly recognize who has lived long enough is that we didn’t have anywhere near as many family’s sleeping in their cars because they couldn’t afford the rent. Now we have many.

              Is that your idea of ‘ success’, Gosman?

              Before 1984 most family’s could live comfortably on the wages of one breadwinner – now huge numbers of parents work two jobs each , never get to spend time with their family’s and still struggle financially.

              Is that your idea of ‘ success’ , Gosman?

              Are you aware or do you even give a damn that there were conferences in the past on how to develop ‘ value added ‘ products? But of course , – those neo liberal troughers such as the Business Roundtable and their mates who had only just bought our SOE’s at fire-sale prices and were busily restructuring , downsizing , and providing ‘ personal choice’ ie : stand in queue for the dole or work for a flat rate on a minimum wage didn’t want any ‘ value added’ movement starting up.

              They had only just managed to gut NZ of its assets and certainly didn’t want any more competition for their monopoly’s…

              This idea of yours ” Given we used to have many of those things you think were vital to a strong economy ” … so,.. you like downgraded hospitals and schools, do you Gosman ?. That figures. Makes room for your ideal of everything being privatised , doesn’t it. That way you can jack the prices up even further and rort a few more dollars out of the suckers.

              A little bit how we used to hear neo liberals preach about govt ‘ waste’ .

              But of course , – to the neo liberal and the globalist , – people unemployed or working for below the costs of living minimum wages doesn’t come into being ‘waste’, does it , Gosman. To them its just business as usual.

              Whats a few more cancer sufferers waiting on a hospital list or poor kids who cannot go to University between neo liberals , eh?

              That’s just good business according to them.

              And its exactly the same sort of neo liberal troughers in the National party and their short term vision that are encouraging this out of control immigration because it drives down wages and guarantees votes from middle class speculators and provides rich pickings for foreign investors.

              As well as currying favour for free trade deals and the fat cats who make even fatter profits off of our backs.

              • Gosman

                You aren’t explaining why the NZ economy was in such a state in 1984 and why for all the great things we had our economy was not as dynamic nor diverse as it is now.

                • the Joneses

                  You aren’t explaining what was wrong with the state the NZ economy in 1984, nor what is meant by a dynamic or diverse economy.

                  Nor are you describing how a country possessing a good, diverse, dynamic economy flows into differences in standard of living for all its population. Which is what really matters at the end of the day.

                  Bit like we are told GDP growth is good for the economy, but what does that actually mean for the average individual in real terms. And what has been sacrificed for that increase in GDP?

                  The economy is not a real thing, it is a construct. It’s idea is used to help push through policies which may go against the general well being of a population, for the benefit of the few. IE – “we need to do X as it is good for the economy”. Closely related to trickle down economics.

                  • Gosman

                    You’re denying NZ had serious structural weaknesses in it’s economy in 1984 are you?

                    • And your denying in public that whole family’s sleeping rough in cars while working two jobs and still not being able to afford the rent is not ‘ structurally weak ‘ ???!!!???

                      Are you really that stupid?

                    • the Joneses

                      I would argue that NZ in has always had a serious structural weakness in its “economy” in that it has been running never ending current account deficits for the past few decades.

                      http://www.tradingeconomics.com/new-zealand/current-account

                      I have no knowledge on NZ’s 1984 economy. If you have a point, please let us know in plain english so we can debate it. What was the serious structural weakness in 1984 you are talking about?

                      Also I am still waiting on what your definition on a dynamic and diverse economy is, and why the general population should care if we have one?

                      I kind of get why a diverse economy is good, as bad years for different industries cancel others out. But I would expect NZ is getting worse there, we used to manufacture a lot more than we do now. Maybe we have more tourism, but that also has a lot of negatives for quality of life for the locals.

                      The term dynamic economy – I have no idea what you mean. Is that one where people have no job security and can go from one low-skilled job to another very quickly?

                    • KJT

                      Yes mostly from Muldoon borrowing for infrastructure offshore, instead of using taxation and QE as we did after WW2.

                      Something National has continued. The “structural weaknesses” are still there, but with lower wages and decaying infrastructure. Hardly an improvement.

                • Johan

                  Gosman you are an idiot! Why don’t you learn to read and take in other people’s comments. Oooops, I forgot, you are just here to troll.

                • keepcalmcarryon

                  “You aren’t explaining why the NZ economy was in such a state in 1984 and why for all the great things we had our economy was not as dynamic nor diverse as it is now.”

                  Because as a country we had been run in to the ground by the National government of the drunkard prime minister Rob Muldoon.
                  Typical National horrendous economic performance.
                  Hows the national (National) debt clock this time round Gosman?
                  Please discuss.

                  • And of course he wont ,… because he cant.

                    To do so would blow his cover and threaten the gravy train he perceives to be on in exploiting cheap immigrant labour.

                    I can only imagine his childhood years burning with revenge against those who offended his persona… and now that he has that chance – albeit a fleeting one – to exact that vengeance on so many,… giving him a temporary sense of power over others…

                    A sad pathetic existence if ever there was one…

            • KJT 1.1.2.1.1.2

              So. What has changed gobber, except we now do the same things for much less pay?

          • Bill 1.1.2.1.2

            Yup. Post 84 liberalism has essentially been a wrecking ball swinging its merry way through society.

            And we’d still have to do huge amounts with NZ infrastructure if that hadn’t been the case – ie, if maintenance and upgrading had been done in the interim.

            How that seques into a kind of ‘New Zealand for New Zealander’s’ thig is beyond me. I couldn’t care less if the nurse or the doctor is Taiwanese, Samoan, Irish or kiwi…it would just be nice to have a first rate and accessible health service.

            As a leftist and an immigrant myself, I’ve no problem with immigration per se (What I detest is that rich people can buy to live wherever they want but poor people get imprisoned in a given ‘nation state’).

            Open the borders to kill the market I say. But then, I’m an internationalist at heart…and it seems internationalism is just so passé these days. 😉

            • Gosman 1.1.2.1.2.1

              You avoided my question. Given we had award rates, a more equal society and free or very low cost training pre 1984 how come our country was in such a mess economically?

              • I avoided your question because no matter what anyone would say to you , you have an ulterior political motive thus you are not interested in any realistic demonstration of historical fact. In summary – you are myopic.

                And that myopia extends to the point of ignoring the world oil crisis of the 1970’s and Britain joining the European Union in that time as well.

                Trolls bore me rapidly.

                So if you wish to pursue your foolish line of reasoning I would ask you to provide evidence of why the generally Social Democratic country’s of Scandinavia were, – and still are – the wealthiest per capita in the world today. Similar to how we were before the 1984 Milton Friedman , Mont Pelerin inspired deconstruction that gutted this country and made it tenfold worse than anyone could ever have imagined pre 1984.

                Enough of your foolish attempts at derailment.

                • Gosman

                  Scandanvian countries (with the notable exception of Oil rich Norway) are amongst the most open economically in the world.

                  • AND have one of the highest rates of income AND taxation.

                    AND among the most advanced welfare systems on the planet.

                    AND it wasn’t achieved through NEO LIBERALISM.

                  • McFlock

                    They also have much higher rates in their top tax brackets.

                  • DS

                    So I take it you’re OK with 70% of the workforce being members of trade unions?

                    • If that …

                      “Better late than never, Jim!” – Bolger on the State of … – The Daily Blog
                      thedailyblog.co.nz/2017/…/better-late-than-never-jim-bolger-on-the-state-of-the-unio…

                      Worth the time for a good read and adsorbing of just what Chris Trotter has to say on the issue. Personally , for all his views – I regard Trotter as a fantastic living repository of the history of NZ labour and the Labour party movement.

                  • Foreign waka

                    Gosman, Scandinavian countries have an active immigration policy. Try to immigrate to – lets say Norway -I wish you the best of luck with that. Secondly, Scandinavian countries have actually high taxes which is very helpful when building not just physical but also social infrastructure. And thirdly, economically open but not at the expense of their own people.

              • Grafton Gully

                Because the criteria used to identify an economic mess falsely represent what people need. The thousands laid off at short notice from secure and dignified work passed their bitterness and grief to the next generation and beyond. Your denial of the inhumanity is transparent. You will lose the long battle.

              • Philj

                What’s your solution Goss?

            • WILD KATIPO 1.1.2.1.2.2

              Id advocate some sort of quota system for immigration – and irrespective of either skills levels or financial status. And I would go further – a quota system for each country and a general quota ceiling per annum in total.

              And I would far rather we raised refugee numbers and cut back on immigration numbers at the same time.

        • weka 1.1.2.2

          “NZ could shut down completely – become a wee fortress – and within about a generation (maybe a bit more) the country will be in utter chaos as aging, inadequate and insufficient infrastructure ‘falls over’ because it’s neither built nor designed with global warming in mind.”

          I don’t think anyone is suggesting NZ become a wee fortress (probably not even Peters, who is just chasing votes so he can keep his kingmaker role). But let’s say that were to happen for whatever reason, a thought experiment. We lose some infrastructure sure, but there is no reason for NZ to fall unto utter chaos as a result. Chaos comes from social and political structures, not whether the coast road has been inundated by storms. We have an abundance of infrastructure, more than enough to see us through the power down, and we have more than enough workers and expertise to manage and maintain the necessary infrastructure even were we to go through a massive change in lifestyle (by which I mean, no new iPhone every year and people have to walk and bike places, brown outs, having to conserve water etc).

          In other words, there are arguments all round on the immigration issue, but NZ having open or closed borders or something in between is not necessarily going to impact badly on our ability to manage CC.

          Or, I could argue that an increased population makes it harder 😉

          • Phil 1.1.2.2.1

            we have more than enough workers and expertise to manage and maintain the necessary infrastructure even were we to go through a massive change in lifestyle

            You miss the old white elephant in the room – a massive cohort of retired people that need to be cared for by a proportionately shrinking base of tax-paying workers. .

            • weka 1.1.2.2.1.1

              Sure, you need massive amounts of workers if you want a commodities, export/import based economy. But Bill was suggesting that if we didn’t have that along with immigration to support it NZ would descend into chaos. I’m suggesting that there are more options than neoliberal global capitalism and utter chaos.

            • KJT 1.1.2.2.1.2

              That is the biggest load of bollocks ever. No problem at all if the workers are paid according to their scarcity. Of course immigration is a way of keeping workers wages low.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                So is employment law. Who do you think is more responsible for low wages and insecure employment conditions in New Zealand: Mr. Peter Talley or Mrs. Immigrant? Bill English and the scum he wallows in, or Mr. Migrant Worker?

                • I would say that the original architects of what we are experiencing now hark back to the days of the Business Roundtable and the energy they put into drafting up the Employment Contracts Act.

                  From there it was simply a matter of lowering NZ wages, driving Kiwis to Australia ( 650,000 Kiwis in Australia from a country of around 3,5 million at the time – go figure the impact of that on professional / semi professional job placeholdings ) and then encouraging cheap immigrant labour , – because lo and behold – we suddenly now have a ‘ skills shortage’….

                  Golly Gee whiz ,… I wonder why …

                  Minimum wages ,… and Bill English’s statements that ” we should be glad we have a LOW WAGE ECONOMY because that ENCOURAGES foreign investment;;….

                  Gee whiz,… I wonder who he was pandering to…

                  Australian banks and their NZ counterparts in the business community , aka the Business Roundtable???…

                  Pshaw… surely not… really ?

                  You mean to say it was actually planned as in goal setting complete with short term , intermediate and long term goals… naw… people don’t think like that in real life ,… do they?

                  Fucking wake up and stop bloody dreaming , people.

                  Admit that you’ve been had and had royally.

                  You’ve been played like a bloody violin and you don’t even realise it even now in the year 2017.

                  Your still in a colossal state of denial 33 years after the fact of the 1984 neo liberal takeover of New Zealand.

                  Wakey wakey , eggs and bakey…

                  Idiots.

                  “Wakey wakey; eggs & …” – YouTube
                  Video for kill bill vol 2 wakey wakey eggs and bakey▶ 0:13

                • KJT

                  You seem to be incapable of figuring out that we don’t hold individual immigrants responsible. It is English, Talley, Key and all their fellow scumbags who are responsible. Both for repressive employment law, AND excessive immigration.
                  Though, when you get recent immigrants falsifying statistics in support of the damaging level of immigration, or writing complaints about not being able to bring in more cheap workers, then they are members of the “scumbags” also.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    You seem incapable of understanding that “Mrs. Immigrant” and “Mr. Migrant Worker” aren’t real people: they are rhetorical devices, designed to get you to think about who is responsible for employment law.

                    I’m not sure you can hear me over Peters’ dogwhistle though.

                    • KJT

                      What a load of crap.
                      The dog-whistlers are those that scream xenophobia whenever we raise real concerns about the effects of excessive immigration. More per capita than any other Western country. Maori know all too well what happens when you have too many immigrants at once.

                      We are still suffering from the UK altitudes to employees, people who work with their hands and workers bought in by all the English immigrants in the 50’s FFS.

                      What are we going to tell Pacific Islanders when they become climate refugees. Sorry we are full, because of all the rich people we have bought in to hide National’s incompetence.

                    • Well obviously it WAS our very own neo liberal politicians who created the climate for the current state of affairs. We all understand THAT , FFS…

                      And its not immigrant bashing as much as it is opposing the policy’s of those who ENABLED this situation.

                      So far you are only saying what we already know.

                      What this has been all about has been unraveling those who were responsible and their motives for doing so – in that light immigrants become irrelevant – the issue is with the ones who caused this situation in the first place.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      The people who allowed wages and employment conditions to be eroded? He admitted it the other day: it was Jim Bolger, but also the current government.

                      As for infrastructural problems, the ball’s firmly in the government’s court there too.

                      So we need to fix employment law and build houses, put curbs on property speculation, etc.

                      But all these things need doing anyway.

            • Foreign waka 1.1.2.2.1.3

              Phil – Are you sure they are able to retire? By the look of things most won’t.
              I cannot see that a couple on some $560 per week able to survive.
              So you will need some workplaces for the old folks too. You know the night workers with the pacvacs on their backs…..

            • Nick 1.1.2.2.1.4

              It needn’t be either or. If it is thought that the housing infrastructure or whatever, can’t handle the numbers, but you need more workers, you issue only temporary visas to arrivals offering skills in short-term-need occupations; you encourage tertiary schools to relocate out of the main centres (and offer the opportunity for residency only for those who obtain legitimate qualification in disciplines the country actually needs); you relocate governmental agencies out of the main centres, where appropriate; you designate certain centres as IT hubs and subsidise their access to ultra-fast broadband connection – mini Silicon Valleys; you improve and expedite intra-national travel to reduce the isolation of regional centres.

              All these policies and many more fairly obvious ones will help reduce the impact of immigration and make it easier to accommodate new arrivals. When Labour Party policy is announced in this area, they would do well to present it as a global solution. If they only talk about reducing numbers in some poorly defined way, it will put off as many as it attracts.

              It isn’t about numbers. It is about accommodation. And it must be seen as part of a broader debate about what we want New Zealand to be like in, say, 20 years time. Not just the temporary difficulties of 2017.

              • ” If it is thought that the housing infrastructure or whatever, can’t handle the numbers, but you need more workers, you issue only temporary visas to arrivals offering skills in short-term-need occupations; ”
                …………………………………………………………

                1) And so you encourage more unemployment of NZ citizens in preference to giving temporary migrants those jobs and foreign company’s contracts. . Great.

                ………………………………………………………….

                ” you encourage tertiary schools to relocate out of the main centres (and offer the opportunity for residency only for those who obtain legitimate qualification in disciplines the country actually needs) ”

                …………………………………………………………….

                2 ) And you encourage the weakening of the NZ Teachers union in the process. Great thinking.

                …………………………………………………………….

                ” you designate certain centers as IT hubs and subsidize their access to ultra-fast broadband connection – mini Silicon Valleys; you improve and expedite intra-national travel to reduce the isolation of regional centers.”

                …………………………………………………………….

                3) Sounds good at first until you realize that New Zealanders could do those very same things , – and more to the point , – WHY hasn’t it been done yet? – And why the reliance on cheap immigrant labour when Kiwis could be trained up to do those very same things?

                More to the point , – why were Kiwis NOT given that opportunity in the FIRST place???
                …………………………………………………………….

                ” All these policies and many more fairly obvious ones will help reduce the impact of immigration and make it easier to accommodate new arrivals.”

                ……………………………………………………………

                4 ) Then what is the point in importing superfluous foreign labour that is not needed if Kiwis were trained up to do the job in the FIRST place?

                Face it .

                We DON’T need foreign expertise to do the same job that Kiwis can do barring opportunistic NZ employers who want to avoid training up Kiwis to increase their loathsome human trading profit margin motivated mentality.

                And this is the penultimate end result of global neo liberalism.

                Do not try and excuse it , or bullshit the people who recognize it for what it is..

                That sort of ‘ vested interest’s ‘ justification of the present condition gets extremely and incredibly boring after a very short period of time to have to refute every time someone trys to wheedle their way around just why they want the status quo to remain intact…

                Please do try harder next time to convince us that you truly speak for the ‘ Left’.

          • Bill 1.1.2.2.2

            New Zealand is not currently making any moves towards reducing energy demand. But even if it was, the electrical grid would probably have to be expanded. If New Zealand’s scenario is roughly in line with other countries, then only something like 20% of our energy use is electrical. Most of the remaining 80% is fossil. And so, even killing fossil and reducing overall energy demand would probably require an expansion of grid capacity in order to replace a proportion of that fossil energy source.

            If coastal roads and rail networks and settlements are going under water in the lifetime of people alive today (very likely) – then I can’t see how that doesn’t result in chaos.

            Even if there is no significant sea level rise (not bloody likely), then the frequency of flooding and very high winds and prolonged heat waves are going to cause mayhem and likely swamp our ability to effect running repairs on shit that’s often Victorian technology designed, obviously, to cope with conditions not at all like what we can reasonably expect.

            So do we have the available labour and skills in NZ today to reconfigure, and redesign our necessary infrastructures so that they can withstand likely future conditions? And are we going to embark on that project?

            That question needs to be answered regardless of any prospective ‘power down’.

            edit – I don’t want to divert the main theme of the post but think this conversation could be worthwhile. Maybe on another post, another day?

            • weka 1.1.2.2.2.1

              Shall I shift it to OM? It will move marty’s comment below as well though. Seems an important conversation.

            • Foreign waka 1.1.2.2.2.2

              Bill, your question: And are we going to embark on that project?
              is inviting the ankle biters, gold seekers and handout movers. No project will have a future without one of the corps going for gold. I think this should be obvious by now. I wouldn’t hold my breath that urgency re sea level rise will change that.

          • marty mars 1.1.2.2.3

            I think chaos comes from people. Fortressnz may keep the people ok while a society wide power down occurs. The problem I see is humans are relational and transactional – in other words what someone says and does affects me and my response. Because so many immigrants have already arrived here and many still have friends and family not here,the fortressnz mentality will cause massive mental stress, anxiety and breakdown. Making sure an individual is ok is NOT the way people actually work imo. So closing boarders would cause as much if not more chaos. And as all the people that set up the fortressnz die, the people left behind will be lost in so many ways – distrustful, suspious, pretty well east Germany cold war style or north korea today on steroids imo.

            • weka 1.1.2.2.3.1

              Is anyone actually arguing for closed borders?

              My point was that in infrastructure and CC terms we might be ok. I did say that chaos is about sociopolitical issues, so in that we agree, and I also agree that relationships are the central thing. But then I can argue against open borders in the same way I can argue against closed ones, and there you and I part ways.

              • What does be okay really mean? Especially if others are not okay.

                Fortressnz underpins the whole discussion imo whether said or unsaid – and others will disagree with that I’m sure.

                I think we both care and disagree on some points like the capacity of the land, infrastructure and resources.

                • weka

                  I used the word ok in the context of bill using the phrase utter chaos 😉

                  I’m all for controlling immigration and against open borders. That’s not a fortress mentality. A fortress mentality to me means guarding against attack. We’re not being attacked, we just have a fucked up economic and political system. But if that were fixed I’d still be in favour of population controls in sustainability grounds. Also steady state economy grounds and because I like peace and quiet. I don’t want to live in a country of 20 or 60 million.

                  • I’m sure you don’t want to live in rhat country anymore than anyone does.

                    The irony may be that down the track immigrants will be gold as populations depopulate under certain cc scenarios.

                    • ” The irony may be that down the track immigrants will be gold as populations depopulate under certain cc scenarios. ”

                      No – wont happen .

                      Why ?

                      Because we as a sovereign nation that calls the shots can regulate the inflow and outflow.

                      Currently we have an irresponsible govt that does neither, so the obvious answer it to get rid of them and install a govt that can. We do not have to pander to the dictates of foreign interests and banking cartels.

                      We actually do have a say in what happens in this country despite what vested interest neo liberals would have us believe. All it takes is to vote them out and they are toothless. From there we start to dictate on our terms to how we best see as fitting for our own best interests.

                      And not someones else’s agenda.

                      And that’s nationalism and its powerful advantage over subversives.

      • Nick 1.1.3

        Or racist and right.

        There is no doubt there has been disquiet in some circles for the demographic chances we have seen in New Zealand over the past few years. Many pine for a New Zealand that is now in the past. A stroll through Auckland’s leafy suburbs or the multiplying cul-de-sacs of mini-white-houses in the new eastern developments will confirm that. So, to some extent the die is cast. However, New Zealand, and the West in general, find the discussion of the future cultural profile of the country, mixed as it is with a more utilitarian discussion of infrastructure and house prices, exceedingly difficult because of the racial elements and accusations which lurk so close to the surface.

        In media terms, the identification of “racist” pronouncements are such an easy go-to place: quick headlines and effective click-bait, that it is understandable that they are unable to resist the temptation. (Andrew Little found this when he opined that the historical immigrant average numbers were probably about right. “Which (ethnic minority) immigrants did he hope to disadvantage”, was the obvious, and asked, question.) But to resist the demand for some recognition of the sentiment might be counter productive.

        Peters speaks like a true Conservative. Oh for the good old days of a flagon on the back porch and just the two (one and a half?) cultures in the house. He won’t be the only one. But that is typical of the vagaries of MMP. He only need to appeal to a big enough cross-section of the country to find himself well-represented in Parliament.

        He stores up the dislocation and the soul-searching for any one who seeks to achieve political power with his support.

    • Bearded Git 1.2

      @Wild Katipo

      Agreed. While Peters was stupid to attack the journalists the article in the Herald did not ring true to me. Work visa arrivals went from 16,787 in 2004 to 41,576 in 2016.

      In the article the journalists were able to show 11252/16787 as the top 5 immigrant countries in 2004, that is 67%. Yet in 2016 the journalists were only able to show 18030/41576 that is 43%. Where 5535 were missing from the analysis in 2004, 23,546 were missing in 2016.

      It seems to me the journalists went out of their way not to show where 57% of the immigrants came from in 2016. As Sanctuary says in a comment below, Winston has got a point.

    • Mike Steinberg 1.3

      The NZ Herald’s article was misleading, but It’s a shame this issue gets diverted from the basic issue of numbers. The current levels are the highest per-capita in the world. Michael Reddell highlights the following benefits if NZ reduced the residence approvals target to 15,000 a year (similar to the 1980’s rate).

      •take immediate pressure off the housing market (current and expected future pressures),

      •lead to material downward revision in expected interest rates (possibly actual cuts, but at least pricing out any increases for a long time to come),

      •lead to a material fall in the nominal real and exchange rates, boosting the competitiveness of our struggling tradables sector,

      •force our export education industry to rely on the excellence of its product (or at least some mix of excellence and moderate cost) rather than what I’ve described as “export subsidies” from the immigration system. Subsidies typically don’t build strong robust, sustainably internationally competitive, industries. Rarely if ever have, rarely if ever will.

      •we’d strengthen regional economies relative to Auckland (an economy whose productivity growth has been underperforming even relative to that of the whole country),

      •get the government out of the business of picking winners in the labour market, or sectors/skills that somehow need a government hand on the scales to help them out, and,

      •over time, it would be likely to ease pressures holding down the wages of New Zealanders towards the lower end of the skill distribution.

      https://croakingcassandra.com/2017/04/12/slashing-immigration-really-is-quite-easy/

  2. Keith 2

    There is an awful amount of shooting the messenger here both by Peters and at Peters.

    It is dumb the way Peters went about it but he is right to raise the vexed issue of immigration numbers because it is playing havoc with Auckland’s, environment, affordability and livability and its all the bloody National Party’s fault.

    Where the fuck in their lying “Brighter Future”/”Working for New Zealand” manifestos was the policy of flooding NZ with as many Student/Work/Whatever visas to feed the labour market, suppress wages and conditions, buy Jap imports and cheap furniture and give investors tenants?? It’s what these liars don’t say that should worry New Zealanders.

    It is awfully convenient that certain statistics such as the country they have originally come from are not kept and it does not surprise me. But what does surprise me is the calibre of our academia, namely Massey University sociologist and immigration expert Paul Spoonley. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11845494

    In response to our now record migration numbers he said; “I thought last year when the Government made those adjustments – suspension of the parents category and the increase in points – would see numbers drop, but that hasn’t happened,”

    Spoonley must have been very busy at university over the past few years not to notice that the National Party tinker to take things off the front page, housing is a goody, so will be tax havens, pollution from intensive dairying, etc, etc, but only ever for appearances sake.

    National want and need mass migration to prop up the economy, it’s the short term way they think to the next election despite the horrendous fall out it brings. Done incrementally would work fine but that is beyond them as they don’t really have a clue on how to run an economy but desperately want to cling to power.

    What they do know however is how to stage manage the media.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 2.1

      Spoonley must have been very busy at university over the past few years…

      Or perhaps he pointedly rolled his eyes as he said it and that didn’t make it into the article.

    • Gosman 2.2

      It isn’t just a dumb way. It is a racist way. You can acknowledge that he is a racist can’t you?

      • WILD KATIPO 2.2.1

        You can acknowledge foreign nationals exploiting migrant workers , bringing down our wage levels and making a killing out of bogus immigration rackets , cant you ?

        • Gosman 2.2.1.1

          Sure. I would agree that there is an element of that. The extent of it is most likely overblown by people like you however it is a reality at some level. Now back to Peters. Are you ready to acknowledge he is a racist?

          • WILD KATIPO 2.2.1.1.1

            No , no no you don’t , Gosman ,..

            We have all been reading about the rorts and scams and rackets with foreign nationals exploiting other migrants and bogus education schools rorting the migration scheme. Don’t try to change the subject and worm out of that one by saying ” Now back to Peters.” with me , mate.

            And as to your puerile attempts at diversion and your rhetorical and subjective assumptions ,…

            Are you willing to accept Peters is not a racist?

            If not , please explain the OTHER sets of data Peters produced.

            Take your time.

            Draw a deep breath.

      • Keith 2.2.2

        Oh come now, is Winston playing the Herald reporter as much as the subject, racist? Probably is!

        But National are very reliant on that fact to stop anyone speaking out about their warped immigration policy.

        I guess then it’s better to be the National Party who sneakily uses “immigration” to take advantage of the plight of third world citizens to prop up low profit businesses and other not so low profit businesses with the desperate from those countries.

        They just love the fact they have an endless supply of cannon fodder to fight for ANY employment that lowers the bar for the rest of us and even better people that are totally vulnerable and at the mercy of unscrupulous employers. And worse do not have the rights or access to services which other taxpayers do. I have know of work visa holders who have been injured on the job through no fault of their own skipping hospital because they cannot afford it.

        Any party who exploits people like that in the cynical fashion National have are to me at the extreme end of racism and are little removed from slave traders.

        • mary_a 2.2.2.1

          @ Keith (2.2.2) … you state ….
          “Any party who exploits people like that in the cynical fashion National have are to me at the extreme end of racism and are little removed from slave traders.”

          Agree 100%. Well put there. A brilliant summation of the facts of this issue. Hope Gosman reads your comment!

    • Philj 2.3

      Immigration Expert (?) Paul Spoonley is the one person who the media consults regularly to put a positive spin on any demographic matters. Why? Do we only have one demographer in NZ? No. He can be counted on to give a free pass to the Government. He is not a brave academic speaking the truth. He is a tool of the establishment and a neo liberal demographer to boot. And stay employed.

  3. Sanctuary 3

    The article is clearly propaganda designed to flannel the issue of low skill immigration, and does just so happen to be written by two reporters from the communities most often shopped as the worst culprits.

    The Herald is completely beholden to the advertising revenue from property speculation which is heavily driven by high immigration and frequently publishes barely disguised propaganda for the property sector.

    Winston Peters has got a point.

    • Gosman 3.1

      A racist point.

      • mikesh 3.1.1

        An immigration policy point, not a racist point.

        • Gosman 3.1.1.1

          Raising the ethnicity of people and claiming that has influenced their activities without evidence is racist.

          • red-blooded 3.1.1.1.1

            I don’t often agree with you, Gosman, but on this issue you’re right. People who are trying to defend Winston, think for a bit about the assumption that’s embedded in his statement: “You can’t trust those sneaky Asians, they’re not going to tell the truth, they’re all in it together…”. If he wants to query the angle taken on the info from Immigration NZ, then fine. There’s no good reason for mentioning the ethnicity of the reporters, though. What does that add to his statement, except the implication that they’re somehow twisting the truth because of racial loyalties?

            And when I say, “If he wants to query the info… fine”, I have real reservations about that, too. WTF does it matter where the flood of immigrants is coming from? It matters what skills-sets they have and where they settle, plus the actual numbers matter, but I’m just as happy to call someone from India a kiwi as I am someone from Britain.

          • mikesh 3.1.1.1.2

            Claiming that someone is biased, while it may be an ad hominem argument, and therefore deplorable, is hardly racism.

            • Gosman 3.1.1.1.2.1

              Claiming someone is biased because of their ethnic background and are not doing a good job as a result without evidence of the bias IS RACIST.

              • mikesh

                Persons who are biased will always have some connection with the thing that they are biased about, so an accuser of bias, whether racist or not, will have to point to that connection to make his case. Threfore an allusion to bias can never indicate racism, even in matters involving ethnicity.

      • WILD KATIPO 3.1.2

        @ Gosman

        So now your calling the other legitimate data Peters presented just to set the record straight either :

        a ) bogus

        b ) inconvenient because it doesn’t suit your National party sycophancy

        c ) discourages the ability to further exploit recent arrivals

        d) threatens the cheap source of labour un- unionised labour provides or

        e) prevents the further downwards pressure on wages

        Id say there’s 5 good reasons right there that you have suddenly chosen to adopt this very sanctimonious interest in human rights , ethics and the like in accusing Peters of racism.

        I just find it rather strange you don’t seem to adopt that same sort altruistic attitude in going in to bat for those dozens of family’s who sleep in cars because they cant afford the rent – after both parents hold down two jobs each.

        Could it be that with this issue your real motives are that there is much money to be made by vilifying Peters as a racist and encouraging irresponsible immigration policy by National but no money whatsoever to be made with poor New Zealander family’s that are homeless and already on unrealistic minimum wages ?

        • Gosman 3.1.2.1

          I’m not calling any data Peters has presented on this anything. I am stating he could quite easily have presented his data to try and discredit the research these two did without implying the reason their research may have been biased was because of their ethnicity.

          I will state this once again as you seem to keep missing it. –

          CLAIMING THAT PEOPLE’S WORK IS BIASED DUE TO THEIR ETHNIC BACKGROUND WITHOUT EVIDENCE IS RACIST.

          • WILD KATIPO 3.1.2.1.1

            No but as usual you are deflecting.

            We all know the MSM and particularly the NZ Herald report in general in a pro govt manner.

            And that misleading emphasis that continually puts this govt in a good light is dishonest . This govt has exploited immigration for the reason I gave time and again which you choose to ignore. All we’ve got from you is this continual childish ‘ Peters is a racist ! ‘ Peters is a racist ! ‘ drivel. You continually evade the question of the other data set Peters presented to set the record straight and the reason you do that is because it exposes all the rest of the dodgy weaknesses in this govt that you support.

            As I have outlined multiple times already.

    • Bearded Git 3.2

      @Sanctuary agreed…..see above.

      The Herald is paranoid about Peters stealing votes from the dull and boring English and so has to attack Peters.

      • Gosman 3.2.1

        By highlighting his racist comments. Riiiiiiight…

        • WILD KATIPO 3.2.1.1

          Why is it racism ?… because Peters was quoting the real statistics the two reporters in the Herald wouldn’t dare quote because it undermined the Heralds vested interests it has with the National party ?

          That’s not being racist – that’s just telling the truth to which sycophants like you search desperately around for a smear label on which to tar anyone who disagrees with your National party bias.

          And frustrates your future gravy train motives for being a troll on this blogsite for them.

          • Barfly 3.2.1.1.1

            /agree

          • Gosman 3.2.1.1.2

            It is racist because he implies that the people he is criticising have skewed the results of their study BECAUSE OF THEIR ETHNICITY. He does so without any evidence. If you want to defend racist statements go right a head. I myself prefer to counter such views.

            • AB 3.2.1.1.2.1

              I don’t think it’s quite as simple as – “he implies that the people he is criticising have skewed the results of their study BECAUSE OF THEIR ETHNICITY”. That’s because the study itself was about ethnicity.

              If the study had been about (say) pollution of NZ rivers and the authors had reached a conclusion I didn’t like, and then I then lambasted them by saying that people of their ethnicity never tell the truth – that would be racist. i.e. a negative assumption about people because of their race.

              If some real estate agents had published an article using dodgy numbers to claim there was no housing crisis and I responded with “Well they would say that” – it would be regarded as merely pointing out a conflict of interest

              The Peters case I think falls somewhere between these two examples – not outright racism and not a harmless calling out of a conflict of interest.
              It’s murky territory and he was unwise to explicitly mention the ethnicity of the reporters. His supporters and most of the public at large would have made that connection quite readily and a more skilful dog-whistler wouldn’t have done it.
              It will be interesting to see what the effect is if any. My pick is that it will enhance his reputation among his actual and potential supporters for robust truth-telling.

              • Gosman

                No, he was well aware of what he was doing. I believe the term ‘Dog whistling’ applies here.

            • WILD KATIPO 3.2.1.1.2.2

              @ Gosman ( 3.2.1.1.2)

              No , Gosman,… what YOU defend is the scenario contained in my above comment ( 3.1.2 ) and that’s ALL you are defending .

              I notice you use the word ‘ implies’ …

              Again , you are letting your subjective bias interfere with your argument.

              And to date – you have still not explained adequately what was the significance of the data that Peters supplied that countermanded the data provide by the two NZ Herald reporters.

              All you have been doing is typing groundless one liners or biased single sentences on how you believe Peters is a racist.

              And that’s all.

            • Philj 3.2.1.1.2.3

              Goss, don’t you have a non racist life to lead?

          • Enough is Enough 3.2.1.1.3

            Why is the ethnicity of immigrants even a talking point.

            Immigration and the total number of people migrating to New Zealand is certainly an issue which needs to be debated. But what relevance is there in highlighting where they came from?

            • WILD KATIPO 3.2.1.1.3.1

              Gosmans trying to divert that attention by calling Peters a racist.

              People like him are responsible for supporting neo liberal govts that are happy with family’s living in cars on sub cost of living minimum wages while importing cheap labour from overseas to drive those wages down even further and over inflating a housing market to garner even more votes from their speculating mates.

              And rather than admit it – he would just rather sit around groundlessly and subjectively calling Peters a racist.

              • Enough is Enough

                I am not really concerned with Gosman.

                My query relates to why the initial article was ever written and why did Winston need to reply in the way he did.

                How does the ethnicity of immigrants add to the immigration debate (other than acting as a dog whistle)?

                • Possibly because the NZ Herald reporters were using imbalanced data sets . And that would favour National in the public’s eye. The ruse would be to try and set traps for any opposition by doing it. For as we have seen , certain ( like Gosman ) will jump on the chance to advance National and diminish Labour/ Greens / NZ First . Its a form of wedge politics.

                  wedge politics – Wiktionary
                  https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wedge_politics

                  Noun[edit]
                  wedge politics (plural wedge politics)
                  (politics) A strategy or pattern of behavior by a politician, political party, or advocacy group which is intended to have a divisive effect on one’s political opponents or on the electorate, especially by emphasizing an issue which polarizes opinion along racial, regional, or other demographic lines.  [quotations ▼]
                  Related terms[edit]

                  I hope Gosman and co are confident that Act , and Dunne are returned , – as this election will probably be both their last stints in parliament forever .. and that Maori and Mana don’t implode in their detente …

                  • Enough is Enough

                    What the fuck has National got to do with this?

                    Winston get accused of being racist by r0b and you come in claiming infer National is involved.

                    For the record don’t lump Labour and the Greens with the bigoted Peters and New Zealand First.

                    • ” What the fuck has National got to do with this?”

                      Everything.

                      It is National that set the runaway immigration policy’s in the first place that is causing so much imbalance and unethical practice in our society at present . Can you not see that plain and simple fact?

                      This whole episode would not exist if there had not been the initial impetus from the National party because of its immigration policy’s settings .

                      Can you not see beyond the immediate shallow and trite ’emotive’ spat between Peters and the NZ Herald dialogue and Peters accusers who accuse him blandly of ‘ racism ‘ , – to perceive and understand the more important correlations between the National party’s immigration policy’s settings and perceive the less tangible and harder to detect evidence for just why the National party are encouraging this ?

                      And using the MSM – in this case the NZ Herald as a foil against govt criticism ???!!!

                      Surely we must not have to re- educate you on the rorts and scams prevalent because of current National party immigration settings – surely not ! How long have we known about this ? – Years!

                      What has all the news been about recently barring bogus ‘ education schools’ luring migrants into handing over their cash in promise of exchange for NZ citizenship that never eventuates or rural agrarian estate owners who only want cheap immigrant labour to work for them at slave labour rates or foreign restaurant owners who express open racism because they only want to hire migrants who will work for below the minimum wage ? !!?

                      Where have you been ?!!?

                      Living in the proverbial toilet all your life , FFS ?!!?

                      Do you even realise what knock on effect this has on NZ rates of pay ???

                      Do you realise what effect this has on NZ born citizens and its downwards pressure on already minimum wages ???

                      Are you that incredibly dense and slow on the uptake that someone has to guide you by the hand and walk you through it all ???

                      Completely bloody unbelievable !!!

                    • Enough is Enough

                      Goodness me – That’s a fantastic rant Katipo.

                    • Sometimes it takes a rant to get through to ‘ all but in name’ fake Leftists like yourself.

                      Have a read of Christine Roses’s article supplied by save NZ further on down the thread.

                      Matter of fact I dont even think you are of the Left at all. I think you are nothing more than a diversion troll , possibly one of the more contemptuous species of cowards who lurk on the internet.

                      Begone with you.

                      You waste my and others time , you fool.

                    • Enough is Enough

                      Just by way of clarification, Wild Katipo your rant didn’t really serve your stated purpose of wanting to ‘get through’.

                      Unless of course you purpose was to convince me that you are as bigoted as Trump, Brash and Peters. Three people who should all be ignored when it comes to immigration and racism.

                    • Yes , but what it did expose you as is as a closet ‘ Leftist ‘ .

                      You are no more ‘ Left’ than any example such as the Sandinista’s or the Peron’s – and in that I am glad to call you out.

                      You have no right whatsoever to be commenting on this blogsite under the guise of someone of the ‘ Left’.

                      You are a fraud. Just another plant put here to muddy the waters.

                      It almost seems this blogsite needs a purge of fake ‘ Leftists’ ,… they do more harm than good. They act as diversionary’s and subversives on any genuine issues of the Left . I am quite happy to expose any one of you for what you are.

                      It is sport to me.

                      Please bear that in mind.

                • mikesh

                  How does calling Peters a “racist” add to the debate other than acting as a “dogwhistle”.

                  • Enough is Enough

                    A dog whistle to who?

                    • mikesh

                      To the anti Peters brigade.

                    • Enough is Enough

                      I am not sure if you know what a dog whistle is.

                      From Wikipedia – Dog-whistle politics is political messaging employing coded language that appears to mean one thing to the general population but has an additional, different or more specific resonance for a targeted subgroup.

                      People calling Peters a racist isn’t coded. It is clear and express so that dogs, cats and everyone else knows what is being said.

            • KJT 3.2.1.1.3.2

              Well. I would like to see us being kinder to our Pacific neighbors and refugees, and less accepting of wealthy English, South Africans, USA’ans and Chinese escaping from the mess they have made of their own countries.
              Otherwise accepting more immigrants per capita than the UK, or Germany, is just daft.

              • Carolyn_nth

                Yep. Many of our Pacific Island neighbours have been kind to us in the past, contributing a lot to NZ and its culture/s. We tend to use them when it suits us.

              • weka

                +1 KJT

              • Indeed .

                We are first and foremost a Pacific nation . Part of Oceania.

                And THAT is where our interests lie.

                We are NOT an Asian nation . We are NOT a European nation. We are NOT a nation of the AMERICA’S.

                We are a PACIFIC nation.

                And our sphere of influence lies with the Pacific .

              • Rae

                Yes to all of that

            • Charmaine 3.2.1.1.3.3

              I would genuinely like to know if people that vote for either Labour or the Greens accept in anyway that people who practise a certain Religious ideology are a problem to Western Civilisation as we are witnessing in many European countries. I loathe the National Govt, I’m new to politics and this issue really concerns me. It is really the only reason putting me off voting Left. There are some issues I feel that we can’t be PC about. I want to live in a safe country and want that for my children going forward. I like many things on the Left but can’t swallow the multicultural thing with one religion in particular. The only place I have see this to be successful is Singapore.

              • McFlock

                I understand the impulse, but I think most people on the left just take a deep breath and recognise that even religious extremists have a right to their beliefs. I just hope that one day the extremists realise that being a devout Christian doesn’t mean that you also have to be an obsessed bigot towards everyone else.

        • mary_a 3.2.1.2

          @ Gosman (3.2.1) … Get over yourself and move on!

          However if you persist and it seems you do want to push on with the “racism” issue, might I recommend you read Keith’s final paragraph @ (2.2.2). You might really learn something about the existing racism prevalent in NZ at present, re exploitation of desperate immigrant labour.

          • Gosman 3.2.1.2.1

            I think your comment would be best directed towards the author of the OP. He’s the one who brought up the Racism inherent in Peters comments.

            • WILD KATIPO 3.2.1.2.1.1

              The racism of Peters inherent in your own subjective , biased and ulterior motivated mind.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                Peters is a racist. The comments he made are racist.

                Gosman is a troll. At the moment he’s trolling you with the fact that Peters is a racist.

                • And you are a person who demonstrates your gullibility and lack of any serious political conviction either way.

                  You stand for nothing and hence your comments stand for nothing.

                  Which is an easy position for any bored troll to assume by switching to either camp as you please..

                  Be off with you as well vacuous person that you are.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    🙄

                    Coming from such a prolific windbag I’ll take that as a compliment.

                    So we need to fix employment law and build houses, put curbs on property speculation, etc.

                    • And basically you are a fool that is sucked in easily by the neo liberal right wing.

                      Everyone who is a long term contributor to this site knows Gosman is a troll and an idiot.

                      That isn’t news to anyone.

                      However , … You’ve demonstrated that adequately through out this thread – and others that you are not that far removed from his way of thinking . Its actually laughable to see how there is really not a lot of difference between the arguments you offer up and that of an idiot like Gosman.

                      Which begs the question : just whose side are you on?

                      Do you enjoy the climate of National party social destruction because you can feel vindicated in your role as some sort of fatalistic pessimist sage offering pearls of wisdom to the unlearned and the ignorant ?

                      Piss off idiot.

                      No one is fooled by your puerile online persona , much less impressed by it. There are serious issues now confronting this country and spineless fence sitters like yourself are worse than useless. Grow some balls and make a stand and show some guts for a change.

  4. saveNZ 4

    Yep Peters has a point. The reality is you can’t trust MSM anymore as they are encapsulated by the National party and advertisers who want mass immigration to sell more goods too.

    Remember how for the last 10 years all the ‘economists’ in MSM agreed that immigration had no bearing on house prices and that there was about to be a crash. Never happened because looking at wages to housing prices does not work if 100,000’s of people are coming in with offshore capital and driving up prices. Even if they are not investors the net gain of people still means they have to find somewhere to live.

    As for Peter’s analysis on the way the government goes about recording immigration statistics. I totally agree. Would not trust the government on any statistic from immigration, water quality, foreign land sales and unemployment.

    Today some Thai resturant owners were in Granny saying how they could not run their businesses without importing foreign workers as they will not pay medium wages.

    You then have to wonder, why they don’t employ local workers (there are plenty of NZ Thais if they are racist and refuse to employ non Thai workers) in their restaurants.

    Or is the real issue that many of these small businesses like restaurants and beauty parlours are receiving ‘payments’ to bringing workers into NZ so they can get residency and that is part of their business.

    Hospitality work used to be a real bonus for NZ students so they could earn work part time while they studied. Now there are so few jobs for NZ students with all the temporary workers everywhere, they are left with staggeringly high student loans and little work experience when they graduate.

    • ” Today some Thai resturant owners were in Granny saying how they could not run their businesses without importing foreign workers as they will not pay medium wages.

      You then have to wonder, why they don’t employ local workers (there are plenty of NZ Thais if they are racist and refuse to employ non Thai workers) in their restaurants.”

      ……………………………………………………………….

      Indeed, … aside from the point you made immediately below that ,.. just what has been a major issue in this country for decades ?…

      LOW WAGES .

      And the insult repetitively was that we were a ‘ ROCKSTAR ECONOMY ‘ ,..or we had a ‘ BRIGHTER FUTURE’ ,… while hundreds are in poverty , unemployed, minimum wage workslaves in dead end jobs with family’s sleeping in cars and vans…

      So just WHY could these Thai restaurant owners NOT employ local workers , pray tell???

      Are these Thai opportunists who endorse minimum wages , refuse to hire local workers or are too cheap to train or advertise for Thai cooks like anyone else has to , – or even other service staff – REALLY the sort we want in this country ???

      When our Trade Unions are already struggling for membership and fighting an uphill battle to improve the lot of their members?

      Yes,… perhaps you are right , saveNZ , – perhaps they have got a racket on the side importing paying customers from their original place of birth and not wanting to have their handsome profits dented.

      And perhaps customs should be paying THEM a wee visit in the not too distant future .

      • Gosman 4.1.1

        What is the unemployed rate amongst NZ Thais? I suspect extremely low.

        • saveNZ 4.1.1.2

          Isn’t this employment racism? I thought under our race relations laws employees can’t distinguish on race….from Granny

          “Most Thai restaurants are dependent on migrant workers, but we cannot pay $49,000 to every staff and still keep our businesses afloat.”

          Gaye Fasher, owner of Cocoon Thai Spa said it would be almost impossible for her five therapists to renew their visas under the new rules.”

          Funny how if someone born in NZ like Winston who’s part Maori is a racist for calling for looking at dodgy figures, but in articles the migrant businesses claim they can’t stay in business because they seem to only be interested in employing migrants and openly say it.

          • WILD KATIPO 4.1.1.2.1

            And isnt one of the neo liberal tenets that if a business fails – tough luck?

            Oh wait… then we had the ‘ too big to fail ‘ banking houses bailouts using Keynesian principles to rescue the poor neo liberals out once again during the global credit crunch …

            To which all that funding was donated generously by the taxpayers and to which we are still dealing with the effects of all their rorting and avarice 10 years after.

          • Gosman 4.1.1.2.2

            Can’t part Maori people be racist?

            • WILD KATIPO 4.1.1.2.2.1

              Yes they can. But so also can imperiously minded exploiters who call workers ‘ the boys’ and underpay them and donate to party’s who encourage worker exploitation. Much like the National party does and much like their immigration policy’s are designed to do.

            • Philj 4.1.1.2.2.2

              Gossy, don’t you have a non racist life to get on with? I do.

            • weka 4.1.1.2.2.3

              “part Maori”

              🙄 You’re so colonialist Gosman.

    • philj 4.2

      You make many good points. The Low pay job ‘facililitation’ payment for entry also makes sense. Thank you.

    • Enough is Enough 4.3

      “Remember how for the last 10 years all the ‘economists’ in MSM agreed that immigration had no bearing on house prices and that there was about to be a crash”

      No I don’t remember that. Any links to assist my failing memory because google couldn’t recall that either?

      • WILD KATIPO 4.3.1

        Try harder then.

        • Enough is Enough 4.3.1.1

          Show me the link to all the economists spouting that made up fact

          • WILD KATIPO 4.3.1.1.1

            UM,… heres a better idea.

            Get off your fat fucking lazy internet arse and do some research of your own instead of needing to be constantly spoon fed to lead you by the hand like a small child to your further education on how the world works , you little cretin.

            Don’t even try the snide internet jerk persona with me , sonny boy.

            I’m past your type years ago,

            Your type bore me absolutely shitless these days .

  5. The decrypter 5

    Peters has been “Set-up”, Me thinks probably.

    • Gosman 5.1

      Set up to utter racist views??? I suspose you could view asking him for his view on a report by two people of Asian heritage is a set up. However it still required him to utter the racist comments.

      • WILD KATIPO 5.1.1

        You truly are a moron , Gosman.

        Are you seriously asking us to believe Peters does NOT have people of different ethnicity’s from different national backgrounds working in his party and that he rejects votes from either 1) recent immigrants who are citizens or 2 ) singles out certain country of origin people ?!!?

        My goodness you really are not on form at all today, mate.

        • Gosman 5.1.1.1

          If you wish to defend racist comments that is your choice. I prefer to counter them myself.

          • WILD KATIPO 5.1.1.1.1

            @ Gosman

            You only counter so called ‘ racism ‘ when it suits. Just like the rest of your National party cronies.

            The rest of the time your quite happy with the ability and locked in legislation to exploit fellow human beings .

            Despicable.

      • mikesh 5.1.2

        Simply stating that he is a racist and repeating it endlessly doesn’t prove that he is a racist. It shows you up to be a propagandist.

        • Gosman 5.1.2.1

          I’ve explained my reasoning why the comments are racist a couple of times. The only person who has actually countered my point was AB and whilst I can understand their point of view I still think his comments were racist.

          • mikesh 5.1.2.1.1

            Going back through your previous comments on this thread where you claim to have explained your reasoning, I see that all you have done is assert that Peters’ comment is racist without actually providing any supporting arguments. I’m willing to admit that his argument was a dishonest ad hominem one, but I don’t buy into the dog whistle that it was racist.

            • Gosman 5.1.2.1.1.1

              He strongly implies the reason the research is wrong is because of the bias of the two people involved as a result of the ethnicity. He does this without a shred of evidence that the two have a bias towards their own ethnic groups. How is that NOT racist?

              • mikesh

                “He strongly implies the reason the research is wrong is because of the bias of the two people involved as a result of the ethnicity.”

                That’s precisely the point. Accusing somebody of bias is not racism. I would think all races harbour biased people. In mentioning their race he is simply expressing an opinion as to the reason for their bias. Nothing racist about that. If he had alluded to their youth as the reason for their bias, would that have been “youthist”.

              • @ Gosman

                And you , Gosman have not provided a shred of evidence that Peters was wrong. Instead all we have heard from you is the parrot like drivel of ” Peters is a racist because’ ,… just because you happen to think so , Gosman .

                And the reason you think so is because it threatens the gravy train you perceive to be part of your reward for following on in the shadow of your neo liberal overlords.

                You are tantamount to a sold out whore.

                And with no disrespect to actual prostitutes, btw.

          • WILD KATIPO 5.1.2.1.2

            @ Gosman

            You’ve explained nothing barring a completely subjective and childish name calling . Name calling that has studiously avoided the real issues.

            You must be either drunk or getting past your political prime.

            Your defense is on shaky ground to say the least and your ability to comprehend reality when it hits is negligible in the face of logical sequences of reality that is presented to you.

      • KJT 5.1.3

        Yeah right Gosman.
        Winston is correct in that so many of the articles in the Herald, supporting excessive immigration are penned by immigrants. Funny that. Those who have gained by favouring immigrants over Kiwis for jobs, are in favour if even more.

  6. KJT 6

    Peters was correct about the Heralds misuse of statistics.
    There is also a point about the endless “poor me”, “we can’t get NZ workers” and “what a great contribution this or that immigrant can make if only they were allowed to stay”. Articles in the Herald.
    All the signs of an intensive propaganda campaign.

    He is also correct in noting the articles were written by beneficiaries of excessive immigration.

    The “dog whistling” about “8zenophobia” from supporters of unbridled immigration is designed to derail the debate, and Peters should know better than to feed into it.

    • Gosman 6.1

      Just as Trump was right to highlight the ethnicity of the judge in the case against his University eh?

      • WILD KATIPO 6.1.1

        We are talking Peters and the use of two supposedly ‘ ethnic immigrant ‘ reporters using misleading statistics by the NZ Herald in support of the National partys out of control immigration policys.

        NOT Trump and his govts immigration policy’s. Nor his spat with a USA judge.

        • Gosman 6.1.1.1

          Supposedly ‘ethnic immigrant’???

          What ever do you mean by that?

          • The decrypter 6.1.1.1.1

            Upon reflection I now wonder if Peters has set the Herald/ tories up ? The old double back twist trap? Hmmm.

            • Gosman 6.1.1.1.1.1

              By being a racist?

              • One Two

                That’s the sneer drum you’ve been given to beat, Gosman

                Do you copy and paste your comments to other similar sites?

                Are you paid or do you come for the excitement?

                • He comes to display his vacuousness weak arguments and sycophantic double standards for all to see . Ask him why he doesn’t express as much sympathy for homeless New Zealanders or family’s struggling to make ends meet on minimum wages in his ‘ structurally strong ‘ neo liberal economy.

                  He remains silent.

                  Why ?… because hes full of bullshit and hypocrisy and doesn’t give a shit about immigrants in the first place. Like his overlords in the National party , he views human beings as exploitable commodity’s to be used , chewed up , and spat out when they are no longer useful to him.

                  • The decrypter

                    Oh- Now Gosmans fear has spread to double dipper , Polls not looking too flash eh?

                • KJT

                  Gosman doesn’t give a shot about racism. Just a right wing dog whistler to shut down the debate

    • Carolyn_nth 6.2

      I think the original article and headline was unfortunate. Maybe it was an attempt to counter some of the racism against immigrants from South East Asian countries. However, it also opened the door (or opened it a bit further) to targeting immigrants from specific countries.

      Also the details further down the article contradicted the headline somewhat, so made it look like it had a biased agenda.

  7. A few years ago I was doing a security course near Symonds street , and the Chinese President was staying at a nearby hotel . Outside there were about 2-300 Chinese Falun gong members protesting the Presidents visit here. The Presients massive motorcade drove past en route to the hotel complete with all his minders. It was ironic that a phalanx of around 30 NZ Police marched up in rank against this demonstrating group and moved among them in quite an intimidatory manner. And stayed there in wide rank to remind the Falun gong members they were right there among them.

    We deride Israeli Mossad being here , – yet are very selective. It is ironic that our enforcers of ‘ democratic govt’ the Police – were actively strongarming a group that is opposed to communist Chinas leadership and advocate democracy .

    Why is Falun Gong Banned? – New Statesman
    http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-faith-column/2008/08/falun-gong-party-chinese

    Do you honestly believe that Chinese communist party supporters are NOT here already closely monitoring student Chinese nationals ???

    Off topic yet food for thought.

    Its time New Zealanders were less gullible and stop acting like soft touch push overs .

    • dukeofurl 7.1

      From 2010
      “Police have found insufficient evidence to substantiate claims Green Party co-leader Russel Norman was assaulted during the arrival of Chinese Vice President Xi Jinping at Parliament.
      Photographs clearly showed Dr Norman being grabbed by Chinese security personnel travelling with the vice president at Parliament this afternoon while the Green MP protested the visit by waving a Tibetan flag.”- Stuff

      I would have thought assaulting an MP around Parliament buildings would have been taken seriously, but the Chinese wanted it to go away- and it did

      • Tarquin 7.1.1

        The “gimme back my flag moment” hilarious, Norman looked like a complete prat. Funniest thing the Greens have ever done.

        • greywarshark 7.1.1.1

          Tarquin and tuppence
          The left obviously shouldn’t try to penetrate the outer edges of your skull, as there is nothing inside to cogitate with. Hilariously, though they will keep on trying as they are suckers for special causes, some of them hopeless.

          • Tarquin 7.1.1.1.1

            Maybe if they released some real policy in plain english so we can work out what they plan on doing rather than Littles musings? We all know something needs to be done about immigration – it’s a golden opportunity for Little to look decisive and boot Winnie into touch. He should take it.

            • WILD KATIPO 7.1.1.1.1.1

              And that will happen.

              An old military adage goes along the lines of ‘ time spent in preparation is time not wasted instead well spent.

              And we have had the National party having nine long painful years planning on how they can keep the neo liberal agenda’s wheels turning for at least the next year … but it is,.. like all machines ,… wearing out. And this is what this thread is all about.

              National party stooges in the NZ Herald presenting only half the story to take the heat off rampant and irresponsible exploited immigration policy’s.

              We can be thankful Winston Peters presented the other half to balance it out and give people the true situation at hand.

              • Tarquin

                I don’t disagree with you, National have done nothing immigration wise but when you’re in power you make the calls. As I said this is a golden opportunity for Little, keeping your powder dry is one thing but having a loaded gun when you’ve been shot several times isn’t a flash look.

                • And no one said anything about your ‘ sage words of advice’ either…

                  This is about the neo liberal right wing attack on Peters forgetting that it might well be Peters that is needed to form the next National govt.

                  I would be careful if I were you.

                  The way Dunne and ACT are performing I wouldn’t place much stock on them being returned to parliament.

                  Even more so with the uneasy truce between the Maori party and MANA…

                  So if you neo liberal right winger’s really want to shit in your nests – keep bagging Peters.

                  If not – I would seriously shut the hell up quick smart.

                  That is, unless your fearful of a Labour led, Greens and NZ First govt coalition govt getting rid of your depravities … then it all starts to make sense…

                  • Tuppence Shrewsbury

                    Peters is a racist has-been. Picking on ethnicity to prove something wrong is racist

  8. tuppence shrewsbury 8

    This is the guy the left need to win power?

    • DoublePlusGood 8.1

      Nope, 35 + 15 = government.

      • Gosman 8.1.1

        35 + 15 is 50. You need 60 + to be a Government in NZ.

      • tuppence shrewsbury 8.1.2

        great maths there doubleplusgood. Moniker ironic?

        Or were you referring to the percentage of voters voting for Labour and the greens? Labour haven’t been that high since the days of goff and shearer and show no sign of returning to them under the current bunch.

        Herald reporters would have got that right.

        • Gosman 8.1.2.1

          I suddenly realised this person actually thinks Labour could get 35 percent AND The Greens could get 15 as well. I think their favourite movie may have been La La Land.

          • WILD KATIPO 8.1.2.1.1

            Little sarcastic we are getting , now Gosman?

            I hope your feeling confident the Maori party and Mana keep thier truce for long enough… otherwise we just might see the National party having to call an early election if they do win …

            And that’s not a good look for the party who ( erroneously ) like to dub themselves as the ‘ stable ‘ party….

            As for Act and Dunne,… well… I think even you will agree the clocks ticking for both of them…

            • tuppence shrewsbury 8.1.2.1.1.1

              are you Philu2.0?

              you know, the old model but with the ability to use spell and grammar check?

              • Are you just plain stupid or do you simply enjoy setting yourself up for ridicule in public?

                Or do you just prefer deflection because you lack any coherent argument and that is your only defense ?

                Bah… trolls,… man, it gets boring dealing with the idiots.

                Where do they all come from ?

          • DoublePlusGood 8.1.2.1.2

            This is a country where National can get 47% in repeat elections despite utter bungling ineptitude, where ACT can get 7.1% of the vote, and where a political party can get 6.7% of the vote solely by saying the word sensible in nearly every sentence they utter in a political debate.
            Just about anything is possible really.

          • Bearded Git 8.1.2.1.3

            But English will never get more than 40% Gosman. So 33+13=46 for the Labour Green bloc is perfectly feasible. Then it’s up to Winnie.

        • WILD KATIPO 8.1.2.2

          @ tuppence shrewsbury ( 8.1.2 )

          The only thing Herald reporters seem to have got right is how to only put in statistical data that suits the National party.

          The one thing they didn’t count on was Winston Peters presenting the other half of the story – much to their chagrin which induces them to reach for the only straws available – such labels as the racist slur.

          Which is the default position of any party that knows that the people are slowly waking up to their true agenda.

          • tuppence shrewsbury 8.1.2.2.1

            Swivelled eyed loon isn’t nearly descriptive enough for you.

            • WILD KATIPO 8.1.2.2.1.1

              Tides turning my old son, and even the business community are becoming restless with National party ineptitude’s ,… hardly grounds to call someone… what was it again?… a swiveled eyed loon?

              How long did it take to create that puerile little put down?

              An hour or two ?

              I’ve heard better from 12 year old’s.

              And they were far quicker to make that sort of infantile comment up.

              • tuppence shrewsbury

                Unlike you, I have a life outside of defending racist comments on the internet like some perverse child like caricature of all the stereotypes of strident left wing adherents. took me about two seconds when I eventually got back to checking to see if anyone had replied to my comment. Much the same as this.

                I’m not sure what tide you are referring to. Writing a fantasy where the left win the upcoming election has been a hallmark of the left in New Zealand since 2008, repeated ad nauseam until the present day. So if you are talking about the tide of National in government washing turning from high to low, I can’t wait to see you eat your hat in September.

                Going by a random selection of your ten marginally less stupid comments, you can’t have a clue what businesses in New Zealand are thinking. It would be a very small minority that actually wanted Winston in power. A smaller minority for labour. A teeny tiny little speck of organic wheat grass not-for-profits for the green party.

                • ”Unlike you, I have a life outside of defending racist comments on the internet like some perverse child like caricature of all the stereotypes of strident left wing adherents. took me about two seconds when I eventually got back to checking to see if anyone had replied to my comment. Much the same as this.

                  I’m not sure what tide you are referring to. Writing a fantasy where the left win the upcoming election has been a hallmark of the left in New Zealand since 2008, repeated ad nauseam until the present day. So if you are talking about the tide of National in government washing turning from high to low, I can’t wait to see you eat your hat in September.”

                  ……………………………………………………………

                  Took about 2 seconds as well to copy , paste your desparation and your rant as well. I see this which explains it all on just who you are , what your motives are and just why you ended up that way :

                  ” It would be a very small minority that actually wanted Winston in power.”

                  …………………………………………………………..

                  You show incredible gullibility in even thinking that Peters will hold ultimate power. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence would know that Peters would support and be part of a Labour led coalition.

                  And this is what you fear , despite your nasty online snide little putdowns.

                  You fear for yourself and your future and your ego.

                  Your ego.

                  And your standing among the circles you aspire to.

                  Ill tell you something.

                  I don’t give a damn about your ego nor your social standing nor your occupational position.

                  And the day that desperate neo liberal lackeys such as yourself are prevented from exploiting fellow human beings is the day that I will quietly disappear from forums such as these. Until then , you provide me with much sport. I enjoy your hate filled diatribes .

                  All you do is simply provide tangible evidence as to why the National party MUST , – and WILL , – be thrown from power.

                  And it will be happening.

                  The neo liberal dream is dead.

                  We are all beyond any more of the sickening lies and double talk and online trolls and see through justifications.

                  Its over.

                  • Enough is Enough

                    Is this satire?

                    • Nah mate .

                      Just exposing a few wankers who have wormed their way onto this blogsite under the guise of being Left.

                      You , like the idiot ,.. whats his pseudonym again ?… tuppence shrewsbury,… seem butthurt that you were / have been stepped out royally and left with no defense.

                      It is so , so easy to expose and call out those that sneak onto a Left blogsite and masquerade around as someone who is genuinely Left.

                      But it doesn’t take long to pick them.

                      Stick around long enough and observe their words over time,… you’ll soon see them for what they really are.

                      Neo liberal apologist trash.

                  • tuppence shrewsbury

                    Where to start? I honestly thought OAB provided the highest word count without saying anything relevant, meaningful or grounded in reality, but congratulations, we have a new king.

                    Ladies and Gentleman, straight out of the daily blog, where long winded, multi dimensional, reality free rants are de rigueur, WILD KATIPO!

                    This is probably the stupidest political observation in New Zealand right now
                    You show incredible gullibility in even thinking that Peters will hold ultimate power. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence would know that Peters would support and be part of a Labour led coalition.

                    Not sure how that can be true given we can be sure the subject of this post will not fly with the more liberal of the labour and greens supporters.

                    OR that every poll out there shows Peters in kingmaker position. little hint, under MMP that equates to ultimate power

                    • You might be laughing out the side of your arse when Peters goes Labour and the Greens.

                      As I said earlier…

                      I wouldn’t be putting too much faith in ACT or Dunne being in parliament after September,… and I certainly wouldn’t be hedging my bets on the Maori party and MANA holding on to their uneasy detente , either , you little twerp.

                    • Tuppence Shrewsbury []

                      I haven’t mentioned any of those parties though? Putting words in others mouths just to satisfy your own fantasies does not make your argument correct. It’s a sad and desperate tactic, revealing the paucity of actual facts you have to support your argument?

                    • Tuppence Shrewsbury []

                      Can’t wait to see the greens talking with the proto fascist race baiter peters. What a government that’ll be

                    • The thing is with butthurt types such as yourself is that you will construct any scenario that lets you off the hook you created for your own hanging party.

                      And that’s the key to exposing trolls such as yourself.

                      You goad them.

                      And you keep goading them.

                      And sooner rather than later,… they find they have nowhere else to go besides their empty defensive ad hominem attacks.

                      That’s when you know you’ve got them.

                      And you and a few others fell into the trap ages ago when this was a new thread. You’ve been made sport of ever since.

                      I sincerely hope you have enjoyed bagging Peters and encouraging him to support Labour , and the Greens.

                      Idiot.

                    • Tuppence Shrewsbury []

                      I’ve barely bagged peters. I’ve pointed out to the supporters of the major parties of left that they need this man and his votes to govern. Are they comfortable with that?

                      You’ve come come in with ad hominem and straw man attacks in some desperate and sad rear guard bid to try convince those same supporters that there is nothing to see here. Almost too much. Like there is something to see here

  9. xanthe 9

    Those who scream “racist” are big part of the problem.
    They prevent intelligent discussion.
    They seek short term gain.
    They turn thoughtful people away from their cause.
    They feed on the disunity they are promoting.
    What does an accusation of “racist” bring to the discussion?

    • Indeed .

      About 5 years or so ago there was a Chinese political party set up on the North Shore , Auckland. Composed of some who were born here, yet more who were just recent arrivals – some not even citizens yet.

      Its financial and political backers were traced back to Mainland China, Beijing .

      Just whose interests were they seeking to advance?

      But according to some inverse racists , I would be a racist for bringing this back to peoples memories…

      Oh , – and BTW ,.. for any of those wondering? ,.. I supported and voted for Internet / Mana last general elections. So no accusations of being a rabid Winnie supporter , please. However , there’s a lot I DO like about NZ First.

    • Gosman 9.2

      So people shouldn’t call Trump racist then and you disagree with people who have?

      • xanthe 9.2.1

        Gossie

        my point is that it does no good!
        Calling Trump “racist” is a good example.
        What good came of that?

        • Gosman 9.2.1.1

          Yet you posted a link to an article which pointed out he was a racist presumable because you thought it was pertinent.

    • red-blooded 9.3

      Oh come on! Sometimes any person with a social conscience needs to “scream “racist””. Peters is a person who wields considerable power over others and looks like he might be in a position to wield considerably more after the next election. He frequently resorts to outright racism when reaching out to his voter-base, and it’s really disappointing to see people here defending that. Let’s remember that this is part of a pattern with Peters. He knows what he’s doing and he keeps on doing it because it works. I didn’t think it would work with so many of the people commenting on this site, though.

      What does an accusation of “racist” bring to the discussion? Sometimes it brings clarity and gives a chance for reflection. It can be an opportunity to shift one’s perspective. A few of you commenting here would do well to reflect on why you’re defending such blatant dog-whistle racism. What did Peter’s comment about the ethnicity of the reporters add,except a nasty little racist taunt?

      • Xanthe 9.3.1

        -red bloodied

        You just made my argument for me there,
        Hint… its not about winning.

      • WILD KATIPO 9.3.2

        I think you may also be turning a blind eye to possible ulterior motives of just why those two reporters were selected to present imbalanced data sets in the first place.

        And going by past performance and the fiasco and deceitful performance by two TV stations during the Internet / Mana launch last election , – if you recall we had the Sabine character whose father was a Northland MP setting up a situation with a TV1 reporter to frame Kim Dotcom and make the man look shifty. if anything we should be extremely vigilant on how these scumbags operate.

        They have much to loose if they loose this election.

        You do recall Dirty Politics , do you not?

        What makes you think things have changed barring instead of the effluent emanating out of the Prime Ministers office , ( the man who was COMPLETELY UNAWARES that anything was going on ) – this particular instance is taking place within the NZ Herald instead.

        The same NZ Herald that foisted the fabricated Dongha Liu $100,000 bottle of wine fiasco and the same newspaper that made much of a letter 11 years old that David Cunliffe signed…

        Some people ask – WHERE IS JASON EDE ?

        I would be just as inclined to ask ‘where is Stephen Joyce’… in all this ,.. with his obvious long history of direct media contacts…

        It doesn’t pay to be naive about how these people operate and it doesn’t pay to to give them any trust either. They are ruthless and they are deceitful. Dirty Politics taught us that.

        Lest we forget.

      • mikesh 9.3.3

        “What does an accusation of “racist” bring to the discussion? Sometimes it brings clarity and gives a chance for reflection. It can be an opportunity to shift one’s perspective.”

        Very true no doubt. But clarity of thought doesn’t provide the answer you think it does.

  10. Guerilla Surgeon 10

    Peters knows his audience.

    • And it seems to be growing over frustrations at the lack of any real govt action on their out of control immigration policy’s.

      We would be far better off raising our refugee quotas significantly if we want new arrivals. Those who have been to hell and back and would truly see this as a brand new start for them and their family’s.

      Perhaps a few Afghani ones to start the ball rolling would do nicely .

  11. The Chairman 11

    Stop right there. Winston wasn’t discrediting the writers because of their ethnicity, thus there was no full-blown racist attack. It seems some just love to put the boot in when it comes to Winston.

    However, their ethnicity could be relevant to the alleged bias in their analysis and their use of a flawed, thus more favourable data set (which doesn’t disclose where the applicant originally came from).

    • dukeofurl 11.1

      You mean , if the reporters were dairy farmers/journalists and they were writing about the wonderful work farmers were doing safeguarding the water ways ?

    • Gosman 11.2

      Their ethnicity should have no bearing on the study at all. Claiming it does with no evidence is racist .

      • The Chairman 11.2.1

        Indeed. However, it may be relevant to their alleged bias and use of flawed data, which was what Peters was implying.

        The only ones pulling out the racist card are those manufacturing it or those falling for the manufactured spin. Which begs the question, which category do you fall into, Gosman?

        • Gosman 11.2.1.1

          If Winston or you or anybody has actual EVIDENCE that the ethnicity of these two influenced their research then it should be presented. Otherwise this is racist speculation.

          • WILD KATIPO 11.2.1.1.1

            As I said above – do you have any evidence it didn’t?

            Otherwise your rhetorical question is refuted and you are only operating on assumed speculation yourself.

            Try another line of attack , Gosman.

            • mikesh 11.2.1.1.1.1

              What matters is that Peters, while not a racist himself, obviously thought that their race influenced their opinions.

          • The Chairman 11.2.1.1.2

            Considering their flawed conclusion, it’s a rational speculation.

            Claiming it as fact without evidence would make it racist.

            • Gosman 11.2.1.1.2.1

              Then he’s guilty of dog-whistling.

              • The Chairman

                Why?

              • @ Gosman

                No , hes guilty of offering a balanced data set for the public consumption.

                To which he did.

                And did it in style.

                And thats what really grates with the National party. It backfired on them. And the only recourse they have left is to try the smear tactic and use labels. Such as ‘ Racist’ .

                John Key tried the same tactics with Nicky Hager and Glen Greenwald. There they were called ‘ screaming left wing communists ‘ and ‘ conspiracy theorists ‘ and such like…

                We later found that Key was lying about the XKEYSCORE program. And the cable links in this country , the number of them and that indeed it would appear as if the NSA had tapped into those oceanic cables for surveillance capability’s.

                And we all know the NSA head admitted guilty to charges of spying and collecting data from the general American populace in court – which was illegal.

                Since then we have found the whole 5 eyes spy network under the GSCB in this country has been used by the USA to spy on Japan , China and many friendly nations of the South Pacific…

                This is how the neo liberal right wing rolls.

                Deceit.

        • red-blooded 11.2.1.2

          How many articles about the actions of pakeha people are written by pakeha? How often is this mentioned? How significant is it?… Do you feel loyalty to people who simply be of the same ethnicity to you? I sure as hell don’t.

          You guys are going for a “guilty until proven innocent” approach. Why?

          As for saying that the only ones “pulling out the racist card are those manufacturing it or falling for the manufactured spin” – if I follow your tortured logic, I think you’re basically saying that Anthony Robins (who wrote this post) is somehow being racist by calling out what he (and I) see as Peters’ racism. Sorry, but that’s:
          a) illogical (to whom is Anthony being racist? how?), and
          b) bullshit (what “spin” are you referring to? Peters was the one spinning things when he tried to rebut the basis of the article by referring to the journalists’ ethnicity).

          • The Chairman 11.2.1.2.1

            “How many articles about the actions of pakeha people are written by pakeha?” 

            Many.

            “How often is this mentioned? “

            Wouldn’t have a clue.

            “How significant is it?”

            Very, if there is a suspected conflict of interest.

            “Do you feel loyalty to people who simply be of the same ethnicity to you?”

            Not at all.

            “You guys are going for a “guilty until proven innocent” approach. Why?”

            Because the report is misleading, hence it’s irresponsible reporting, thus they are guilty of that.

            “As for saying that the only ones “pulling out the racist card are those manufacturing it or falling for the manufactured spin” – if I follow your tortured logic, I think you’re basically saying that Anthony Robins (who wrote this post) is somehow being racist by calling out what he (and I) see as Peters’ racism.”

            No. He clearly sees Winston as a racist, thus is pulling out the racist card. Therefore, my question can also apply to him. Is he advancing the manufactured spin or has he simply just fallen for it, thus believes it?

            “Peters was the one spinning things when he tried to rebut the basis of the article by referring to the journalists’ ethnicity”

            No. It’s you that is trying to spin it. Peters rebutted the article by supplying more accurate data. Highlighting the journalists ethnicity related to their potential conflict of interest.

      • Philj 11.2.2

        Goss, doesn’t your garden need weeding? Your repetitive racist taunts are tedious and demeaning.

  12. weka 12

    “New Zealand Herald propaganda written by two Asian immigrant reporters”

    Stop right there because you’ve already lost. Trying to discredit the writers because of their ethnicity is a full-blown racist attack.

    Technically he was trying to discredit them on the basis of ethnicity and that they are immigrants 😉 So racist and xenophobic.

    • The Chairman 12.1

      No.

      Stating it was written by two Asian immigrant reporters was merely highlighting a fact.

      • weka 12.1.1

        how was their continent of birth relevant?

        • The Chairman 12.1.1.1

          The relevance is to their alleged bias and use of flawed data, which was what Peters was implying.

          • WILD KATIPO 12.1.1.1.1

            Id have to agree and there is no doubting the fact that based on the track record so many times as we have seen with migrant scams with big dollars attached , it is a valid point.

            The fact Peters offered alternative statistics highlighted just how easy it is to feed the public a particular narrative that backs up the incumbent govts policy’s. And as we have seen – this govt quite happily manipulates the MSM for its own purposes. So much more so now that they are under fire for their irresponsible immigration policy settings.

            I think this whole thing is a beat up on Peters to try to discredit him before the elections.

            Problem is , the genies out of the bottle and it is now common knowledge immigration cant keep carrying on like it is now for this country’s well being.

            It has to be severely cut back to manageable numbers.

            • The Chairman 12.1.1.1.1.1

              “I think this whole thing is a beat up on Peters to try to discredit him before the elections.”

              Indeed. Anyone pushing a nationalist/anti status quo stance tends to be attacked by the establishment and its lackeys.

          • Gosman 12.1.1.1.2

            Flawed data may well be a valid reason to reject this research. However speculating about the reason they chose the data based on ethnicity is racist.

            • WILD KATIPO 12.1.1.1.2.1

              And only providing data that fits a predetermined motive is dishonest.

              And that’s why Peters called them out by providing public awareness of the other set of data . Which makes Peters the honest guy in this scenario.

              • red-blooded

                Peters could query the data without playing the race card. He had a “predetermined motive” for doing so.

                • The Chairman

                  Peters rebutted the data by supplying more accurate data. Highlighting the journalists ethnicity related to their potential conflict of interest, thus their possible reason for doing so (misleading the public).

                  • Gosman

                    He doesn’t need to provide a motive. He just needs to show the alternative data. He especially shouldn’t speculate reasons for a motive when it is racist.

                    • Ah , but that’s where your wrong , Peters displayed the other data set to re balance an already biased and prejudiced report constructed by the NZ Herald and their reporters.

                      And to which your only defense is to accuse Peters of ‘ racism’.

                      And nothing more.

                      Which clearly shows you are running out of ideas to defend your already groundless accusations of calling Peters a racist.

                      It could equally be said that clearly you are a tribalistic, myopic , biased slavish serf for your political overlords .

                      To which you have the right of reply equally as much as Peters or his supporter’s have in rejecting your claims of groundless ‘racism’.

                      You have proven nothing all this time you have been posting barring the fact that you exhibit the same sort of closed minded , parrot like and dogmatic illogical lines of reasoning as the sort of people that support the National party’s irresponsible immigration policy’s.

                      In a nutshell , you lose.

                      Goodbye.

        • Enough is Enough 12.1.1.2

          I agree Weka

          Not only why is their continent of birth relevant, why is the ethnicity of immigrants relevant to the debate?

          We have record numbers of Kiwis both staying in New Zealand and returning to New Zealand. We have record numbers of immigrants coming to New Zealand. These factors are putting a huge strain on our infrastructure.

          That is the issue. So why it ethnicity talked about?

          • WILD KATIPO 12.1.1.2.1

            Because guys like Gosman think they have an angle on Peters and wish to use it to smear him with it.

            In that Gosmans failed. Again.

          • The Chairman 12.1.1.2.2

            @Enough is Enough

            This debate isn’t a general immigration debate, it relates to where they come from, hence the relevance to the ethnicity of immigrants. And the relevance to the journalists ethnicity relates to their potential conflict of interest.

            • Enough is Enough 12.1.1.2.2.1

              That is a fair comment.

              Why does it matter where they come from?

              Winston is not upset because of the potential conflict of interest. He is upset because the story contradicts his narrative that Asian immigration is out of control.

              Why else does Winston need to reply to the story with comments like:

              “The main source countries for work visas are Asian countries – not the UK, Germany, Australia, South Africa and the US as the NZ Herald so erroneously and irresponsibly claims”

              Why does the main source countries matter?

              • The Chairman

                “Why does it matter where they come from?”

                There are numerous reasons, are they more likely to be exploited, record keeping purposes, etc…

                Winston is upset because the report is incorrect, which may be due to the journalists potential conflict of interest.

                “Why else does Winston need to reply to the story with comments like…”

                Because it’s true. They are making false claims, thus it’s irresponsible reporting, hence he’s calling them on it.

                • Potential for conflict of interest and irresponsible reporting .

                  In a nutshell.

                  And anyone who dares to challenge the accepted articles of faith of the neo liberal far right is smeared by any number of derogatory labels. In this case being a ‘ racist’.

                  Entirely contemptuous yet entirely predictable strategy from the neo liberal far right.

      • JanM 12.1.2

        I have to agree with you there. The article was tantamount to an opinion piece. Within the academic world it is somewhat of a no-no to give an opinion without making it clear who you are and what your perspective may be based on your personal experiences. Winston merely emphasised this fact when making his case for disagreement giving a possible reason for his perception of their bias.
        And while we’re on the subject, could we examine the reasons the Herald chose those two particular journalists to write this piece?

        • dukeofurl 12.1.2.1

          Yes . There has to be something really wrong with their numbers when they right away claim that Australia is in the top 5 for arrivals for work visa.
          http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11842859
          ‘The top five source countries for work visas last year are the United Kingdom, Germany, Australia, South Africa and the United States of America’ is from the cache, the current story has had its wording altered.

          Of course Australians dont require a work visa!

          The plane trip came via Australia is how I would see it.

        • The Chairman 12.1.2.2

          Indeed, JanM.

        • Sacha 12.1.2.3

          “the reasons the Herald chose those two particular journalists to write this piece?”

          Um, one is their dedicated data journalist (stats, graphs, etc) and the other their main ethnic community reporter for many years.

          • WILD KATIPO 12.1.2.3.1

            Might be true but in today’s heated environment over excess immigration and with an election looming it seems they were cherry picked for the task. They would not be the only ones able to assemble that report.

            Yet the NZ Herald chose to use them to ward off any criticisms of the govt of its immigration policy’s- and the true motives for carrying it on.

            And that smacks of tokenism. Which is another form of inverse racism.

            This sort of tactic has been par for the course for at least 3 decades to close down dissent. And this National govt is no different.

            And that begs the question :

            Why give only one side of the data?

            And why dangle it as some sort of bait for the opposition party’s to take up on?

            The tactic is quite clear .

    • mikesh 12.2

      “Technically he was trying to discredit them on the basis of ethnicity and that they are immigrants 😉 So racist and xenophobic.”

      Ad hominem arguments are often used to advance the arguer’s position. They usually suggest that the target is biased, and this is undoubtably a dishonest form of argument. However, even if the target belongs to a particular ethnic group, this doesn’t make the comment racist.

      Calling Peters “racist” on the basis of such a comment is “dog whistling”.

      • red-blooded 12.2.1

        An ad-hominem attack is personal, focused on the perceived flaws in the character of an individual. An attack based purely on race is… well, racist.

        • mikesh 12.2.1.1

          Suggestions of bias do not denote “flaws of character”, and even if bias was itself a flaw of character, it is one that is shared by members of all races. Nobody in their right mind would claim that only asians were given to bias and that this was a “flaw in their character”.

          • red-blooded 12.2.1.1.1

            I think you’ll find that was my point, mikesh. Hence the final comment that this was a racist dig, not an ad hominem attack.

        • WILD KATIPO 12.2.1.2

          Groundlessly calling someone a racist when there was clearly a potential for conflict of interests and irresponsible reporting surely would come under the category of ‘ ad hominem ‘ when they were merely offering the balancing data to counter the govt narrative ?

          Isn’t that what opposition party’s are meant to do?… or always just fall in behind like sheep and be afraid to speak out ?

          Particularly when there is much is at stake as it clearly is in so many ways with a govt that is self serving , hence the irresponsible and societally destructive immigration policy’s they persist in … surely.

    • KJT 12.3

      No. Stating that two immigrant reporters may have a vested interest in the results of the immigration debate, after they have presented misleading statistics is not racism. Simply, fact!

  13. simbit 13

    Minor point: Mr. Peters has one of the better smiles in Parliament. But the photo used to head this piece (along with the click-baitey headline) is a lemon-sucker. Just saying…

    • Gosman 13.1

      So???

    • Gosman 13.2

      Would you prefer a picture of a smiling racist?

      • WILD KATIPO 13.2.1

        If your implying Winston Peters is a racist , – that’s only your biased and subjective opinion. Provide proof , please. Has he said he is ? No.

        Please refer to my comment ( 5.1.1 ) for further refutation of your absurdity’s.

        • Gosman 13.2.1.1

          I’ve already given my reasoning why he can be classified as a racist. The author of this article also agrees with me it seems.

          • WILD KATIPO 13.2.1.1.1

            Doesn’t matter if this author or any other agrees with you. Many more on this thread don’t .

            So far all you’ve done on this thread is attempt to derail , use totally irrelevant overseas examples and to confuse the issue by subjectively calling Peters a racist.

            It would appear your real motive would ultimately be to support National party immigration policy at all costs.

            But of course, you have not admitted to that so therefore I am only speculating.

            Just as you are doing in speculating and accusing Peters of being a racist.

            Refer my comments ( 5.1.1 ) to see how stupid your comments are sounding.

      • simbit 13.2.2

        I don’t think he’s a racist.

  14. Gosman 14

    Former Labour party staffer nails this topic. Seems this is also partly Labours fault.

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/27-04-2017/an-ugly-great-can-of-winston-the-inescapable-result-of-labours-immigration-push/

    • Muttonbird 14.1

      Trawling Kiwiblog for your opinions. Thought as much.

      • Gosman 14.1.1

        Is The Spinoff actually Kiwiblog now?

        • WILD KATIPO 14.1.1.1

          Doesn’t matter the source, – just as the deceit of neo liberals within the National party will call a policy yet have a totally different motive for doing so changes nothing.

          It is now known widely how National used Dirty Politics and that their immigration policy issue is unsustainable. It is also suspected by many that the real reason for unbridled immigration was to fulfill two objectives :

          1) provide cheap labour sources and create downwards pressure on wages.

          Who benefits?

          Employers and corporate’s – both local and foreign.

          2) To create an artificial economy via housing prices.

          Who benefits?

          Banks and corporate’s ( again ) and Nationals chances of garnering votes in the coming election from property speculating middle class New Zealanders.

          At the expense of ALL OF US.

          • Gosman 14.1.1.1.1

            Nice little conspiracy theory there. Now back to the racist comments by Peters and how Labour has opened the door for this sort of really dirty politics.

            • WILD KATIPO 14.1.1.1.1.1

              Not really a conspiracy theory at all when the evidence is plain for all to see. However, persist in denial if you wish.

              And btw… I am saying what countless economists, political commentators and social planners have been saying for decades. Yet I suppose you and your hackneyed wisdom and biased neo liberal political ideology supersede’s them all in one fell swoop, … doesn’t it , Gosman ….

        • saveNZ 14.1.1.2

          Nope Spinoff is more Granny for the younger crowd. Same Granny discourses, more infotainment.

        • Muttonbird 14.1.1.3

          Lol. No sooner had the Spinoff article been posted by Farrar, you link to it here.

  15. BM 15

    If a country of 4 million doesn’t have the ability to provide the infrastructure for an extra 75,000 people per year, then that’s a sad indictment on NZ.

    We’ve haven’t got the builders, we can’t free up land, everything takes forever to get anything done, it’s fucking hopeless.

    I do wonder if the councils need to be cut out of housing altogether, how about instead the government decides what land gets developed, pays for the infrastructure then passes the bill onto the councils who then bill the ratepayers?

    • Barfly 15.1

      NZ has the highest? per capita rate of immigration in the western world…duh it creates problems. You are diversion trolling.

    • Go tell that to the Irish , BM , – they have a similar population size to us and I hardly think they would be the sort of people who would welcome such massive and irresponsible immigration to either their largest city’s in either the North or the South.

      Especially , – like here – where there is high unemployment and far too many low paid jobs that don’t even accommodate the basic costs of living.

      • Gosman 15.2.1

        No, the Irish generally prefer mass outward mugration.

        • WILD KATIPO 15.2.1.1

          And as we recall in Irish history , not going so far back as the Gallowglas to which belonged my Scottish Clan Gunn ancestors , – who on behalf of the English King committed that round of atrocities , – but rather to the era of the corrupt and deceitful machinations of the Scottish Highland clearances during the 17th century , – we find the same forced genocide of the Irish and thus the migration of the Irish to the New World… caused by the banking institutions of the City of London and their avarice,…

          To which in your disgusting sarcasm you endorse such examples as the mass genocide of the Irish populace.

          Further evidence of your callous and contemptible disregard for humanity itself.

          Therefore , after displaying your complete lack of historical facts and the motives that caused them , … thereof :

          How can anyone give any credibility to a single thing that you have to say… ?

      • Enough is Enough 15.2.2

        Since the late 1990s, Dublin has experienced a significant level of net immigration, with the greatest numbers coming from the European Union, especially the United Kingdom, Poland and Lithuania. There is also immigration from outside Europe, including from India, Pakistan, China and Nigeria. Dublin is home to a greater proportion of newer arrivals than any other part of the country. Sixty percent of Ireland’s Asian population lives in Dublin. Over 15% of Dublin’s population was foreign-born in 2006

    • saveNZ 15.3

      “it’s fucking hopeless” It’s called 3 terms of a National government BM.

      • WILD KATIPO 15.3.1

        Yes ,… the criminal rogue element of the political spectrum.

        The extreme far right embodied by its most pernicious ideology yet :

        Neo liberalism.

        And in New Zealand led by the once failed ex PM , who led the National party to its most stunning historical defeat and will do so again in 2017 , Bill English, … riding on the coat tails of the MSM’s love fest with John Key while family’s lived in cars because their wages could not keep up with the rents of NZ speculators encouraged by National party led immigration policy’s…

    • left_forward 15.4

      Yeah… and how about we get rid of Government as well and let the corporations and developers decide for themselves – then we wouldn’t have to worry about open space, parks, reserves, sites of significance, and other things these fuckin’ hopeless people want to preserve.

      • WILD KATIPO 15.4.1

        Well,.. it would be interesting if we did get rid of any formal govt.

        I don’t think it would be long before those terrified and cowed corporate leaders would be begging for the return of some form of regulated , govt enforced organisation to ensure their safety … there are approx 7 billion people or thereabouts on this planet and only 1 % of them are currently the ‘ elite’….

        A rope around the neck attached to the nearest lamppost in vigilante pay back can seem mighty tight, I should imagine …

        Which , … strangely enough ,… is the exact inverse of the type of anarcho capitalism that is currently being attempted to be practised under global neo liberalism at present at large and abroad….

        Anarcho Capitalism :

        Anarcho-capitalism – Wikipedia
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism

  16. saveNZ 16

    Another business I think should be investigated for immigration scams is Chorus. Not only do the technicians coming out all seem to be migrant workers, and 50% can’t actually do the job. Some can’t speak english so you wonder how they communicate back to head office!

    While many many not care, certainly it’s driving down NZ ability to compete in technology, stopping people from being able to keep their businesses going and actually reducing revenue for other telecoms like Vodaphone and Spark as people just give up having a phone line.

    There is a massive productivity drain from all this cheap but not very competent migrant labour. It is not just the ‘lower’ skilled workers, the competent employees being over run with incompetent colleagues, but also has a flow on affect on big businesses that are running themselves into extinction by the lack of innovation and loss of focus on income. They are instead obsessed by cost cutting.

    So Gosman. Tell your mates, to sell those shares in Telecoms and construction before Shipley does a Mainzeal (which happened in the middle of a construction boom).

    Cheap labour is not the way to run a business or a country.

    • Ah , but then Gosman lives in the 19th century when mines were mined with picks and shovels, men died early from black lung and children climbed up chimneys to clean them .

      While wannabe toffs like him sat in the smoking room smoking fat cigars ,drinking gin , reading the paper and speculating on how well the East India Company was doing working the coulees in its gem mines…

    • Gosman 16.2

      They are private businesses. If their current business model if going to lead to what you say it will lead to this opens up a world of possibility for another business to come in a clean up. That is the beauty of the free market.

      • McFlock 16.2.1

        Yes. It relies on a situation of failure to hopefully lead to more successful enterprises.

        Some things we should never let fail: critical infrastructure. A child’s education. An emergency response. Using the free market to supply these things guarantees failure.

        • WILD KATIPO 16.2.1.1

          Never mind,.. as Gosman lies in his privately paid for healthcare in the cancer ward or the heart unit he can sneer at the poor who have to rely on the degraded public health system and remind himself of all the tax dollars he saved rorting the workers wages just before he dies…

          So just what will be his legacy and his epitaph I wonder?…

          I shudder to think…

          • KJT 16.2.1.1.1

            I doubt if Gosman is any more than a wannabee capitalist.
            Like his heroine, he will probably die alone and indigent, with his health care paid for by the Socialists he despises.

    • millsy 16.3

      The company I work for has the contract to install smart meters around the North Island. They bring in immigrant workers, who are poorly trained, and them put them under intense pressure to do a certain amount of installs in a day, and then come down on them like a ton of bricks if they did this, that or the next thing wrong.

      Needless to say, they make mistakes.

      • WILD KATIPO 16.3.1

        It indeed sounds like a leadership / CEO group of under-confident aspiring wankers TBH,…

        And exploiters to boot.

        It is time such false leaders/ CEO’s such as that are struck down and relegated back to the position of servitude again . They need a lesson in humility. They need to learn that you can have all the University degrees in business management you like, but until you have ‘earned your stripes ‘in the field , you are nothing but dead meat.

        All good leaders serve their time in the field until they learn the whole industry.

        Until then , they are merely rookies and learners and have no place at all being at the helm.

  17. saveNZ 17

    This is a repost of a comment by Not a Robot from a Christine Rose blog on TDB. He/she has some good points on the immigration themes.

    NOT A ROBOT says:
    APRIL 22, 2017 AT 10:50 AM
    This article very clearly portrays what could be called the “normative” position of the New Zealand Left on immigration.

    Despite being filled with lots of numbers and apparent statistics, it also reveals the fact that the “normative” position of the Left on immigration is not very well thought out. Instead, when you look between the sprinkling of numbers, you get emotive arguments, about “blaming” immigrants, or “manipulating fears” or other such rhetorical deflections.

    When we step back and ask ourselves, “what do we want?”, we realise we want a society where all workers are treated fairly. But when we look closer, we see that migrant workers in NZ are being shipped into our economy faster than they or the economy is able to adapt.

    I know this, because I work with migrant workers every day, helping them to establish themselves here before their visa’s run out and they are sent back home. When they are sent home, often their situation is worse than it was before they came; they are broke, with generational debts, and very few skills to show for it. They would have been better of not coming here at all. Is this what we want?

    I wonder whether people who advocate for more “immigration” in NZ actually care about migrants at all. The system we have now exploits migrants in a savage manner that I rarely hear discussed, except perhaps at Union meetings. That bothers me a great deal.

    Outcomes would be better for migrants and local workers if there was actually *less* migration, and better attention paid to helping those migrants who do come to integrate. But in the Left-wing circles I move in, there is precious little rationality, and a great deal of empty rhetoric.

    Much of the Left espouses “open borders”, which means effectively that anyone who comes here for any reason should be allowed to come, and it is never appropriate to set limits or restrictions on who may come or why.

    So, a million of the world’s poorest people want to come to New Zealand, increasing our population by 20%? No problem. The fact that there are no houses for them, or jobs for them, or that our infrastructure will not be able to cope… not an issue.

    You are not allowed to suggest that immigrants are taking the houses or jobs of locals, even though this is an obvious fact that even simple logic must confirm. Our population is rising dramatically, our housing stock is being depleted, unemployment is up and wages are down. Hint; it’s not because we are magically becoming more fertile.

    It doesn’t seem to occur to people who advocate for Open Borders that they are strangely in lock step with the Business Councils of almost every developed nation in the world. Its the Capitalists who want Open Borders more than anyone. It’s the Capitalists who want to create massive global trade deals which include mechanisms for importing unlimited quantities of foreign labour. Its the Capitalists who understand well that when you flood a labour market with people willing to work for far less than local workers can or will, the pay and condition of all workers must eventually be driven down to the same level as the 3rd world economies where the foreign workers originate from.

    I have long pondered how it is that so many on the Left got so muddled up on this issue, and the only conclusion I can come to is that most people on the Left don’t have any real understanding of economics, or international trade or commerce beyond a few talking points they pick up from the blogosphere. When real Workers complain about the impacts of immigration on their circumstance, they are denounced as “deplorables” or “bros” or “white supremacists”. Is this how we get the Workers of the World to Unite?

    The truth is, advocacy of Open Borders (as opposed to genuine Internationalism) is not Socialism, its Liberalism. The reality is, International Capitalism uses labour market liberalisation to smash Trade Unions and local economies everywhere in the developed world. Using the destructive forces of globalisation and de-industrialisation, their ultimate aim is to reduce the entire global labour market to the lowest common denominator, set by conditions in the poorest countries of the 3rd world. They have done, and continue to do this by moving millions of high-skill jobs out of developed countries to under-developed countries, and by moving millions of low-skilled workers in the opposite direction, into developed countries. This is done in conjunction with the simultaneous reduction of tarif barriers (another form of “Open Borders”) and the flooding of our markets with cheap commodities and cheap manufactured goods. The TPP would have taken this program to unimaginable heights of efficiency and effectiveness, from which we would never be able to recover.

    With only a few exceptions, like Jane Kelsey, and a one or two notables in the Labour Party, most of the NZ Left struggles to engage with any of these issues with any kind of nuance at all, descending reflexively into idiotic charges of “racism”, “xenophobia” or “fascism” whenever it is discussed. Which leaves the field completely vacant and ready for possession by both fascists and Capitalists, who’s real agenda of aggressive Capitalist exploitation and impoverishment of ALL workers everywhere goes unchallenged.

    If you can’t have a nuanced debate, or engage with even basic issues such as international labour market arbitrage (which is effectively what we are talking about) without collapsing into an apoplectic heap, then you are incapable and unqualified to run, regulate or even reform a modern technological economy. Which means that the Socialist Project is effectively doomed in New Zealand.

    And that makes me sad, because I personally want New Zealand to be a Socialist country, where existing workers rights are protected against predatory Capitalists. I also want a Socialist society where local workers are protected against the ill-conceived plans of Liberal activists who don’t really care what happens in the bigger picture, as long as they are able to create and maintain a loyal constituency for their particular brand of angst.

    To achieve the ultimate goal espoused in the Communist Manifesto, of a world where all workers *everywhere* are empowered to own the means of production and manage their own society, we *must* grapple with complex economic and political matters in a rational manner. We must respect the fact that before we can liberate the Workers of the World from poverty everywhere, we must first liberate them from poverty here, where we are now. And that means not playing into the hands of International Capitalism by allowing our economy to be beggared by labour market liberalisation schemes disguised as warmed-over Left-wing idealism.

    [if you’re going to cut and paste, put up a link as well – weka]

    • Sacha 17.1

      Did you get her permission to repost a whole comment to a different blog?

      • WILD KATIPO 17.1.1

        ” I personally want New Zealand to be a Socialist country, where existing workers rights are protected against predatory Capitalists. I also want a Socialist society where local workers are protected against the ill-conceived plans of Liberal activists who don’t really care what happens in the bigger picture, as long as they are able to create and maintain a loyal constituency for their particular brand of angst.”

        ………………………………………….

        This is probably one of the most balanced articles for the avocation of an egalitarian NZ I have read in some time.

        100 % endorsement of this article by Christine Rose. Marvelous thinker.

        She nails the whole deceptive ploys used by the Liberalists and Globalised Capitalism. She nails just whats wrong with so many on the rabid , blinkered Left and the error they maintain. The analysis is practical , it is forthright and it is compatible with both moderate nationalism and Social Democratic principles.

        100 %

        I am a moderate nationalist who believes passionately in Social Democracy. And I oppose with relish anyone who stands against that Social Democratic principle. And by that I aim the guns squarely and constantly against what we would call modern ‘ neo liberal ideology’.

        These neo liberal subversives should be shown no political mercy whatsoever.

        They need to be rooted out , challenged and discredited at each and every turn that they manifest themselves. You are involved in an ideological war , and the enemy is a subtle one. So subtle, they have hijacked many earnest people who would consider themselves as of the ‘ Left’…

        There should be no opposition whatsoever from this blogsite or any other that purports to support the traditional ‘ Left’ in having such opinion pieces being viewed for public consumption. None whatsoever.

        In fact , the opposite . Such pieces should be used as a standard bearer and spirit level by which all other contentions are measured.

    • JanM 17.2

      Excellent article – thankyou saveNZ

  18. Michael 18

    Do Winston’s rants justify Little’s promise to keep “tens of thousands” of people out of NZ in the unlikely event he becomes Prime Minister after the next election? Of course, he will need Winston and the Greens to drag his Party over the finish line, so a degree of pandering to populist prejudice is probably prudent (excuse the alliteration but can’t get rid rid of it). Even so …

    • ‘Winston’s rants’ did more for balance than any number of NZ Herald biased articles.

      Must we continue to quote the as yet unapologised for false claims of the ficticious $100,000 bottle of wine or the equally as bogus 11 year old letter the Herald slated as evidence of David Cunliffes corruption… perhaps we could counter that with sheep deal to Saudis… or the SIS being used to smear Phil Goff during an upcoming general election… or perhaps John Key being caught out lying over the existence of the XKEYSCORE software used to potentially conduct surveillance of New Zealanders…

      And should we remind you also that Act and Dunne’s political popularity are tenuous at best … and as said further on up this post, that National had better hope the uneasy truce between the Maori party and Mana remains intact…

      As for ‘ populist prejudice ‘ it seems you have an aversion to balanced reporting… akin to most National party supporters and sycophants … why is that? … is there something that you stand to lose by National losing and Labour coming to power?

      I think that is actually the case… why else all this denial of what even the most casual observer can see taking place in everyday life? Why else all this denial of migrant exploitation by fellow migrants? Why else this support of rogue NZ employers taking advantage of cheap immigrant labour with the carrot of citizenship continually being dangled constantly before them ?

      Just why do so many NZ employers favour low paid cheap immigrant labour instead of employing New Zealanders?

      Just why all this sudden support for bogus education units that have mushroomed in numbers ever since it was realised the migrants were a source of fast profits and a way to get around our customs / immigration legislation?….

      And the price for all that in election year?

      Accusing Winston Peters of being a’ racist’ when he gave the other side of the story…

      How cheap .

      How simplistic in its thinking.

      And how easily seen right through for what it is.

  19. Whispering Kate 19

    Well, all I can add to this immigration situation is if the Government – Central and Local don’t start to sort out the transport problems here in Auckland the city will grind to a halt and the goose will not be able to deliver the golden egg to the government. I was on the North Shore bus yesterday into the city at 10am and the motorway was gridlocked – I returned on the 4.10 bus and it was gridlocked. If even a third of the immigrants purchase a car on their arrival and add that to the gridlock, come 5 years we will be down the gurgler. A young woman sitting next to me was going to buy in Millbrook further north but she and her partner are staying put in the Bays area as she sees the traffic getting worse every year – they both plan to get out of the city.

    Winston may not have the gift of the gab and he certainly doesn’t do PC – but he’s telling it how it is – a train wreck in the making up here.

    • You got it – Peters doesn’t do PC and he tells it straight. And many mealy mouthed apologists hate him for it.

      The very same mealy mouthed apologists who have vested interests in keeping this whole cartel the way it is.

      And most can be found among the far right neo liberal genera.

      They don’t want change because that would threaten their personal golden goose.

      Expect more of the same if National wins in September. So the moral of the story ? Don’t let em win . Vote them out this September election.

      • red-blooded 19.1.1

        Winston “tells it straight”??? My god, you’ve really fallen for his spin. Listen to any interview with Mr P: you’ll hear him sidestepping, attacking the interviewer and doing everything possible to avoid giving a straight answer. The man spins like a top!

        • WILD KATIPO 19.1.1.1

          Or perhaps it is you that spins like a top.

          What agenda are you pushing , may I ask?

          And spare me the bleeding heart mantra of being among those suckers for neo liberalism and global capitalism.

          Perhaps you too , should have a good read and truly ADSORB the words , – and not just skim read – Christine Rose’s magnificent article in saveNZ’s post in comment ( 17 ).

          I lose patience rapidly with those naive and unwitting fools who play straight into the hands of the enemy they purport to oppose.

          • red-blooded 19.1.1.1.1

            WK, don’t go playing the person instead of the argument. Your beloved Mr P may do that, but that’s one of the things that’s being criticised here. I am neither naive nor unwitting; I just have a better memory than you and it seems a better ability to confront prejudice. I also have an appreciation for the cultural diversity and vibrancy that immigrants help to bring to NZ. Note, that doesn’t mean that I don’t recognise problems with our current approach to immigration – I think the numbers, the skill sets brought by immigrants and the approach to settlement destination within NZ all need overhauling. What I don’t think is that settlers from England and Australia are automatically better than those from India or Malaysia, and (more pertinent to the actual issue under discussion here) I also see it as racist to imply that reporters are biased simply because of their ethnic origin. It’s fine to query or argue with an official report; it’s not fine to attack journalists who are conveying the main findings of that report.

            And by the way, putting something in capital letters doesn’t encourage one to ABSORB the meaning. As it happens, I teach the subtleties of reading for subtext and don’t NEED the capitals. Perhaps you do. (To be honest, I’m starting to doubt whether you’re ever going to confront the actual argument being made here.)

            This is my last reply to you. Have fun.

            • WILD KATIPO 19.1.1.1.1.1

              I care neither for your egotistical self aggrandizement expressed through your incredibly presumptuously held sense of intellectual superiority nor for your dishwater variety subscription to claiming to be ‘ Left’.

              1 ) I notice you are full of your own self importance :

              ……………………………………………………………..

              ” I just have a better memory than you and it seems a better ability to confront prejudice. ”
              ………………………………………………………………

              2) And also a patronizing sense of immigrants , – particularly from non English speaking country’s :
              ……………………………………………………………….

              ” I also have an appreciation for the cultural diversity and vibrancy that immigrants help to bring to NZ. ”
              ………………………………………………………………..

              3) Also , a distinct and selective inverse racism in off itself in singling out those of Anglo Saxon heritage :

              ……………………………………………………………….

              What I don’t think is that settlers from England and Australia are automatically better than those from India or Malaysia, and (more pertinent to the actual issue under discussion here) I also see it as racist to imply that reporters are biased simply because of their ethnic origin. It’s fine to query or argue with an official report; it’s not fine to attack journalists who are conveying the main findings of that report.

              ………………………………………………………………..

              As you studiously ignore the other set of data that Peters provided ,…

              You are easily batted back to the background from which you came.

              Like so many other pseudo ‘ Leftists’ who benefit from the neo liberal right wing – and particularly the National party inner core , – please try harder next time to at least be a little more subtle in the way you express yourself.

              You are easy meat to pick off.

              Seriously , if you are going to align yourself with international capitalism and neo liberal globalism , you will have to present your arguments far , far more sophisticated than that to convince anyone who is well seasoned to recognize instantly the characteristics of the double dealer.

  20. Mike Steinberg 20

    The NZ Herald’s article was misleading, but that shouldn’t be the focus. That simply diverts attention from the policy impact of the current migration targets that National has set. The current levels are the highest per-capita in the world. Michael Reddell highlights the following benefits if NZ reduced the residence approvals target to 15,000 a year (similar to the 1980’s rate).

    •take immediate pressure off the housing market (current and expected future pressures),

    •lead to material downward revision in expected interest rates (possibly actual cuts, but at least pricing out any increases for a long time to come),

    •lead to a material fall in the nominal real and exchange rates, boosting the competitiveness of our struggling tradables sector,

    •force our export education industry to rely on the excellence of its product (or at least some mix of excellence and moderate cost) rather than what I’ve described as “export subsidies” from the immigration system. Subsidies typically don’t build strong robust, sustainably internationally competitive, industries. Rarely if ever have, rarely if ever will.

    •we’d strengthen regional economies relative to Auckland (an economy whose productivity growth has been underperforming even relative to that of the whole country),

    •get the government out of the business of picking winners in the labour market, or sectors/skills that somehow need a government hand on the scales to help them out, and,

    •over time, it would be likely to ease pressures holding down the wages of New Zealanders towards the lower end of the skill distribution.

    https://croakingcassandra.com/2017/04/12/slashing-immigration-really-is-quite-easy/

    • Those measures would be the ideal but unfortunately English and his govt are cowtowing to the Australian banks – and do whatever the Australian banks want. And the Australian banks will keep on doing what they are doing so long as it pays.

      And if it looks like there is a stall in trade… expect more ‘ dire warnings’ to be announced by proxy by our Treasury on behalf of the Australian banking system.

      And that is how New Zealanders are played royally by foreign interests.

      Expect if National win this election for there to be no change in immigration simply because it supplements and enhances the Australian banks initiatives – as well as placating the NZ rogue employer base that rely’s on cheap foreign labour and is typically a National party supporter.

      And that justify’s articles like today’s NZ Herald article about some Thai restaurant that practises overt racism by declaring openly their business would sink if they could not employ exclusively migrant labour that they can easily exploit and had to employ NZ workers instead .

      Cry me a bloody river.

    • Craig H 20.2

      An annual residence target of 15,000 would be taken up almost entirely by partnership and dependent child applicants – the current expected target for Family Category residence visas is 27000 – 29000 over 2 years. Even after subtracting 4000 for the parent category, you’ve still barely got enough left for the refugees and associated categories.

      Doesn’t leave much for skilled or business residence visas…

      • KJT 20.2.1

        Companies may have to pay decent wages to attract skilled New Zealanders, or train some more.

        How sad!

        • Craig H 20.2.1.1

          That’s certainly true of a number of industries, especially hospitality, but it’s less true of doctors, engineers or experienced IT professionals, for example.

          • KJT 20.2.1.1.1

            As our Doctors, Engineers and IT professionals go overseas to get jobs, as the ones here are filled by recent immigrants.

            Try getting an NZ company to pay for training in any of those areas.

            Like nursing and Teaching. Recent graduates cannot get jobs in Teaching as we imported over 2000 Teachers last year.

  21. Janet 21

    I am so glad that Winston dared to be called racist for saying the Asians writing the article about arrivals in New Zealand were not truly representing the actual final “settled immigrant entry “ into New Zealand.
    Thousands of young people come into New Zealand on working holiday visas every year for example and most of them spread around the country – they do not glut Auckland. Most of the ones I meet are of European, English or American origins, and guess what, most of them go home after their Working holiday stint.
    I wish we continued to source our permanent immigrants from first world countries then we would not be slipping down to second and third world levels as we clearly are now in many areas. Our governments have failed us over the last decade. Why?

    • ” Our governments have failed us over the last decade. Why?”

      Cheap labour and even faster profits.

      And hefty donations to the National party as well as a guaranteed source of votes from paper rich NZ middle class housing speculators. Along with free trade deal foreign speculators which help to reinforce international relations and banking credibility – particularly the Australian banks… to which the National govt are enthralled.

      And along with that ‘ cheap labour and even faster profits ‘ comes the back up by those with vested interest’s – such as rural agrarian estates who now rely on groups such as Filipinos to do the manual work that Kiwis wont do because of the slave labour camp pay and conditions. Similar to the rural agrarian Deep South of the Southern USA in the 19th century.

      Couple that with the burgeoning of bogus ‘ education schools’ for migrants used as a front to rort cash with the promise of ‘ citizenship’ to import them by the planeload and you start to see how the rort is perpetuated.

      Best bet ?

      Vote National out this September and end the gravy train for all these dishonest dirty little vermin that have gained a foothold in our society.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 21.2

      Homelessness and inequality are consequences of government policy, not the number of expats.

      PS: the “third world” doesn’t really exist any more, and we don’t get a significant number of expats from countries that might still meet the description.

      • WILD KATIPO 21.2.1

        For a start we are not talking ‘ expats’ we are talking immigration policy by the National party.

        As for the third world ‘not existing ‘ go live in Africa for a awhile and report back from there.

        And if we don’t get a ‘ significant amount’ from country’s that meet that description – as I said further up the post – we need to cut back immigration and open the doors to far more refugees.

        And as I said earlier as well… a few more Afghani refugee family’s would do quite nicely.

        People like that who have been to hell and back and would appreciate a brand new fresh start for them and their family’s.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 21.2.1.1

          What’s the difference between an immigrant and an expat? Would you explain it to me please?

          • WILD KATIPO 21.2.1.1.1

            Expatriate – Wikipedia
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expatriate

            immigrant
            ˈɪmɪɡr(ə)nt/
            noun
            a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country.
            “they found it difficult to expel illegal immigrants”
            synonyms: newcomer, settler, incomer, new arrival, migrant, emigrant;

            ………………………………………………

            Don’t waste my time on trivia in future.

            It took me all of 30 seconds to do the same job your fat lazy fingers could have done instead if that was a genuine question.

            And WITHOUT the pointed lead in that you are waiting for to present your ridiculous and aberrant points of view in order to justify your eccentric political viewpoints.

      • KJT 21.2.2

        yeah. Government policy that brings in too many people at once.

  22. peterlepaysan 22

    Stop right there.

    Referring to to writers ethnicity does not make one a racist.
    If the writers are writing about race issues it may or may not be relevant. It depends on what is being written.

    What is at issue is the statistical data, its veracity and the methodology used to come to a conclusion, very difficult with statistics.

    I am not a supporter of Peters but to label him a racist for criticising a newspaper article is ridiculous.

    You are starting to sound like bradbury.

  23. peterlepaysan 23

    Stop right there.

    Referring to to writers ethnicity does not make one a racist.
    If the writers are writing about race issues it may or may not be relevant. It depends on what is being written.

    What is at issue is the statistical data, its veracity and the methodology used to come to a conclusion, very difficult with statistics.

    I am not a supporter of Peters but to label him a racist for criticising a newspaper article is ridiculous.

    You are starting to sound like bradbury.

    Or may be you think the herald is completely unbiased.

  24. edgil 24

    Wild Katipo,
    You sum up the New Zealand condition succinctly.
    You took a very dangerous subject and explained it, as it is.
    Well done.

    • Halfcrown 24.1

      +1

    • Thank you so very , very much for that vote of confidence.

      You know all through this, the music of George Harrison and the lyrics often go around in my head ( crazy sounding , I know ! ) … ‘ While my guitar gently weeps’… I know it sounds strange , but there is something applicable to the situation we find ourselves now in NZ… I think it is the simplicity of love verses the odious complexity of deceit and the ulterior motives and guile that hallmarks global capitalism that makes me feel this way ,…
      ……………………………………………………………..

      I look at you all see the love there that’s sleeping
      While my guitar gently weeps
      I look at the floor and I see it needs sweeping
      Still my guitar gently weeps
      I don’t know why nobody told you how to unfold your love
      I don’t know how someone controlled you
      They bought and sold you.

      I look at the world and I notice it’s turning
      While my guitar gently weeps
      With every mistake we must surely be learning
      Still my guitar gently weeps
      I don’t know how you were diverted
      You were perverted too
      I don’t know how you were inverted
      No one alerted you.

      I look at you all see the love there that’s sleeping
      While my guitar gently weeps
      Look at you all . . .
      Still my guitar gently weeps.

      …………………………………………………………………….

      George Harrison and Eric Clapton – While my guitar gently weeps …

  25. Tanz 25

    shoot the messenger. Immigration is killing this country, we are filled to the gunnels.
    Time New Zealand was for New Zealanders, not the rest of the world. About time, or is it okay to hand away paradise, and see it stolen from generations to come. Oh, but hey, that’s racist apparently, to stick up for this land, and to keep it in the family. No, let’s just hand it away instead, and then wonder why people end up living in cars and on streets…and then there is white flight…but we can’t mention that, either, can we.

    • Gosman 25.1

      Filled to the gunnels???

      I think you will find NZ has plenty of roon for more people.

    • Enough is Enough 25.2

      We are an immigrant nation.

      Since Cook sailed into these waters, every wave of immigration has encountered the same resistance from the people who had emmigrated at an earlier time. The same arguments come up time and again. Immigrants are taking our jobs and houses, they don’t mix with us, we don’t have the right infrastructure, they don’t speak English.

      Yet if this country had closed the doors when these bullshit arguments were first spouted then the majority of us would not be here.

      Don’t confuse the current government’s failure to plan infrastructure and run a country properly as a reason not to embrace immigration. Immigrants bring valuble, skills, money, and culture to New Zealand

      Immigration is not the problem. Central planning is

      • WILD KATIPO 25.2.1

        And yet you are not outlining the most glaring and obvious fact of all :

        That we are a modern nation state in the 21rst century and not a colonial outpost of the British Empire of the 19th century.

        And we have every right to set the immigration levels as WE now see fit.

        And if those immigration levels are causing stress and harm we have every sovereign right to adjust them – as WE see fit..

        And that is precisely what Winston Peters did when he presented the missing ‘ other half ‘ of the equation in regards to the slanted and biased and report by the NZ Herald reporters data set.

        • Enough is Enough 25.2.1.1

          “That we are a modern nation state in the 21rst century and not a colonial outpost of the British Empire of the 19th century.

          And we have every right to set the immigration levels as WE now see fit”

          huh?

          Yes and immigration policy is set as we see fit.

          When was the last time our immigration policy was set by anyone other than our democratically elected government. Please enlighten me as to why you would think the British Empire has anything to do with this.

          Do not confuse with what Mr Peters want with what the rest of New Zealand wants.

          • WILD KATIPO 25.2.1.1.1

            Are you quite stupid?

            Or do you have a problem in differentiating between decades , – or century’s?

            And yet you assume you are quite qualified to comment on modern politics in the year 2017… I see,… therefore I shall humour you,…

            …………………………………………………………………

            Once upon a time there was a Mont Pelerin society sycophant called Roger Douglas,… are you with me so far?… I haven’t lost you yet with your short attention span , have I?…

            OK , we are getting somewhere,… anyhow this Roger wanted to Roger the NZ economy. He wanted to do that to make money. Lots and lots and lots of money.All for himself.

            And so he lied a lot and said to the PM ,.. ” Look , – we can makes lots more money if we just made a law that made Trade Unions less powerful ”…” And once people didn’t make money they would all go to Australia instead” ,…

            But the PM felt uneasy about that and said so…

            But Roger was clever.

            And Roger said ” Look,… if everyone goes to Australia that means we can import people from poorer country’s who will do the same work for much , much less pay” …

            And so that is what happened . And Roger got very rich indeed.

            But a few years later,.. 33 years , in fact ,… a news person called Guyon Espiner spoke to a few people who thought like Roger.

            They felt really , really bad about what they had done and said it was all wrong, wrong , wrong ,….

            But it was too late .

            And now as those people who thought like Roger came closer and closer to the time when they would die,…they started to feel even more bad about their ideas.

            But it wasn’t because they really cared about all those people that they had harmed…

            It was because , – just like when they were younger,… they were thinking only about themselves and all the wrong that they had done.

            And whether it might go against them and that they might not get all the good things that other people got after they died.

            And they were scared.

            And they knew that what they had done was very , very wrong.

            And they were scared about what might happen to them after they died. And so they spoke about the lots and lots of damage they caused when they were young and how that affected so many people who didn’t have a lot in this life.

            But as time went on , Roger and his friends died .. and it didn’t matter so much anymore because the people learnt to see bad people like Roger and make sure they couldn’t harm them anymore just like Roger did…

            And after that, the people were very , very happy – and even after Rodger had died and gone away…. and slowly ,… he was forgotten and the people were even happier.
            ………………………………………………….

            Moral of the story ?

            Don’t act like a thick moron and I wont treat you like one.

            The next time you want to act like some subversive neo liberal apologist prick and masquerade around like something you are not I wont have any hesitation in making you look even more foolish as you do right now.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 25.2.1.1.1.1

              The moral of this story is that verbosity is the soul of witless.

  26. millsy 26

    China and India hold New Zealand large reserve army of labour.

    It is really at the point now, where employers are refusing to hire New Zealanders and would rather hire immigrants, leaving a whole lot of New Zealanders left to rot on the scrap heap,

    • And then that is at the point where these unscrupulous and opportunistic employers need to be named and shamed. They are no better than the slave traders of the Deep South of the USA during the 19th century in attitude.

  27. David Mac 27

    We tie in with an Iwi or we are immigrant spawn.

    I hope any changes to the law aren’t retrospective. If they go back as far as 1880 I’ll be applying for an Irish passport.

    We’re all immigrants. Do we need to be careful about who we share our little slice of heaven down here in the South Pacific with? Of course, we’d be silly not to. We need a couple of big staunch Samoan boys on the door.

    • We are a Southern Pacific nation and our sphere of influence includes the nations of the South Pacific. I have no problem at all with staunch Samoan men at the door defending this country’s best interests.

      None whatsoever.

      To coin an American phrase- ‘ God bless ‘ the Samoan people and their family’s.

  28. Cinny 28

    Around 70,000 immigrants a year, that’s ten times the population of Motueka.

    I’m not anti immigration, as I love a multi cultural community. But I am anti allowing in such massive numbers when we do not have the housing, schools, hospitals, roads, the infrastructure to cope with so many people.

    Who would not want to come to NZ, we are a safe island in the south pacific, with all the unrest in the world it’s no wonder people are streaming into NZ.

    Another thing i’m not down with re immigration is allowing only those that make good money to come here, I’d rather let in people that add value to a community and often the rich fella in the suit only adds value to their own life and does not want to become involved in enhancing the community.

    Winny has always campaigned on immigration etc after all his party is NZ First, and this election I believe they will receive the most votes they ever have, let’s face it immigration has never been so topical in NZ. One of the reasons I’d like to see NZF as part of the new government is so we can have a minister for seniors.

    • Well said on so many points. Practical and common sense .

      I think many of Peters detractors fear that quality in him and immediately reach for the nearest perverted label they hope to pin on him in an attempt to discredit the fundamental truths he expounds and that which we all know to be the truth deep down.

      I give him a straight A for his courage in a climate of weak and compliant politicians.

    • ropata 28.2

      100% National is happy for rich foreigners to buy their way in, contribute sweet FA to the workforce, buy up a dozen houses, and dodge tax. Bring in younger people with much needed skills! Get rid of the big-noter category. Fuck off Peter Thiel and movie stars buying up all the spare land. The OIO and the department of immigration are useless.

      The problems are so out of control and corrupted, I am anti ANY further immigration and I seriously want to vote for Peters.

  29. Nick 29

    It is clear that when Winston Peters started by referencing the ethnic background of the journalists, he gave the green light for commentators to cry “Racist”. And maybe the impulse was racially charged. but it is also probably true that the colour and analyses of the Herald item were formulated to promote a preconceived advocacy. I don’t know if that matters or not. Everyone has preconceptions we bring to any question.

    However to lead with that, fairly obvious, observation was certain to lose Peters a high proportion of neutral readers.

    The trouble is, Peters would probably not hope to get those people, anyway. All he needs is to attract enough people who like his overt anti Asian (or at least anti Asian culture) stance. Ten percent saying “that’s how I feel too”, is plenty enough for him. He may get that. Many are unsettled by the changed the country has gone through over the past few years, and many more, away from Auckland, may imagine some terrible, unreal vision of a New Zealand over-run by Chinese hordes.

    This would be unfortunate in that sometimes our worst instinct, if left unstated, can be modified by experience before they are allowed to metastasize into something considerably more harmful. New Zealand’s immigration debate is still too unsophisticated to easily accommodate much nuance, so Winston Peters’ comments are widely given the character of a blunt instrument attack on innocent immigrants.

    Where the rubber hits the road is that the Left hoped to be able to work with Winston after the election. The hope had been that his policies could be made more acceptable by association with the Left. What seems now just as likely is that the Labour Party immigration policy will be media-muddied as Racist by contagion.

    • red-blooded 29.1

      And that’s my worry too, Nick. Peters is always going to scrape the bottom of the barrel on this issue, and there’s some unhealthy, smelly, sticky mud down there.

      • WILD KATIPO 29.1.1

        And by that I imagine you would say that such things as the XKEYSCORE surveillance lies and false NZ Herald $100,000 bottle of wine donations come up smelling of roses …

        There is now a popular saying… WHERE IS JASON EDE….

        You would prefer NZ employers exploiting cheap immigrant labour

        You would prefer migrants flouting our employment laws and exploiting recent arrival migrants by paying them sub minimum wages…

        You would prefer erosion of Trade Union negotiations in favour of undercutting those negotiations advancing sub minimum wages paid to immigrants and NZ citizen workers.

        You would prefer migrants exploiting more recent immigrants and flouting our customs and labour laws by promising them the potential for citizenship and rorting even more cash out of them in bogus education establishments… then washing their hands of all responsibility when they are sent home broke .

        You are a true , full blown arsehole.

    • And it is precisely at that point , – that we must check ourselves and become acquainted with the analysis provided by such as Christine Rose above ( comment 17 ) posted by saveNZ.

      Here it is explained in all its bald faced honesty and the crux of the matter.

      And just how the earnest aspirations of those of the Left have been so easily sucker punched into compliance with neo liberal ideology and globalist capitalism.

      This is one of the clearest and most quickly accessible political analysis to hand of the uniqueness of the NZ condition .

  30. peterlepaysan 30

    Racist is such a chameleon word. Once upon a time it denoted people who considered themselves superior and born to rule over others with different genetic heritage.

    Nowadays any reference to genetic history is “racist”. Somewhat vexatious.

    Robins is using “dog whistle” rhetoric to defend a herald article?

    Really?

    Interestingly on the same day on the natrad Jim Moragh Panel session had rather different conclusions expressed, not once was “racism” expressed.

    Go figure.

    Maybe Anthony to lie down with a cup of tea.

  31. Tanz 31

    New Zealand may not be filled to the gunnels, yet, but our prime jewel, Auckland, most certainly and definately is. Do we want an over-crowded, grid-locked and over priced country with not enough jobs or homes? That’s Auckland, and yes now, the regions too.
    Winston will win this eleciton on the immigration issue, he has tapped into the main concern of the silent majority. What a fabulous PM he would make, far more sensible, honest and a true conservative than that faker, Bill English, who has sold out his people, and is handing away our Nationhood. May as well be Labour, Nat and Lab one and the same.

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