In defence of Julie Anne Genter

Written By: - Date published: 9:01 pm, May 2nd, 2024 - 203 comments
Categories: climate change, greens, julie anne genter, national, politicans, same old national, transport - Tags:

From the looks of it yesterday Green MP Julie Anne Genter may have had the sort of day at work which many of us have. But not often and we always want to forget them and move on. And she clearly felt immediate regret. But for most of us the event is not recorded, the video is not put up almost immediatly and a transcript is not shortly after that made available.

I am sure everyone has seen the video. Here is RNZ’s short description of what happened:

As MPs were debating roading projects as part of the Annual Review – Transport on Wednesday night, Genter rose from her seat and walked across the chamber towards National’s Matt Doocey.

She then waved a book in his face and repeatedly yelled: “Read the report!”

It is slightly hard to reconcile Hansard with the video but Hansard records Matt Doocey saying this about the last Government’s transport priorities:

Because you cancelled all the roads for six years.

Genter’s point, made eloquently previously, was this was bollocks, utter bollocks.

This is what she said shortly before:

I am really looking forward to hearing from the Minister of Transport because he has repeatedly stated that there was insufficient investment in highways and roads under the last Government. I wonder if the Minister could enlighten the committee, for the year under financial review, what the top three activity classes were in terms of percentage of the National Land Transport Fund. Can he confirm that State highway improvements were the number three investment under the previous Government—that almost a billion dollars was spent on State highway improvements just in the financial year under review, not including the New Zealand Upgrade Programme, and that the only two activity classes that exceeded that, at 20 percent and 18 percent, were State highway maintenance and local road maintenance, and that, therefore, the vast majority of the transport budget under the previous Government was being spent on highways and local roads?

So Doocey’s throw away comment was completely wrong. And Genter’s comment was completely right.

In the most important debating chamber in the country should we allow our highly paid employees to, on one side speak crap, and on the other side accurately reflect reality? Should both be tolerated or should the clearly wrong statement be pulled up and punished?

Here is the graph from the last NLTF report:

So who was right? Matt Doocey saying that the last Government cancelled all the roads, or Genter’s assertion that the top three activity classes involved the maintenance or improvement of roads?

While you are at it look at the funds being spent on walking and cycling projects. In a situation where we actually have committed to reducing greenhouse gas emissions from transport this is a very small amount. And the current Minister wishes to make it much, much smaller.

The Greens have been in my view not sufficiently protective of Genter. They should say that she was incensed at how the debate was being skewered by misleading representations and that she became fed up by it. Our representatives need to call this bullshit out.

To be frank I am also fed up by this.

The world that my moko occupy is being destroyed. We know why and how and what the solution is, but the need to actually do something is being made less important than the right clinging onto power by engaging in inane culture wars.

And instead of having a reality based discussion we have to put up with these culture war inspired misrepresentations.

National, Act and NZ First have gone to town and lodged complaints against Genter.

This is politics as usual for them.

It made me review how Labour handled a not dissimilar recent event, and, shock horror, Labour’s handling of that event was quite different.

That event involved an allegation that National MP Tim Van Der Molen had acted inapropriately towards Labour MP Shannan Halbert. After an independent review it was concluded that Van Der Molen had been in contempt of Parliament for aggressive, hostile and threatening behaviour towards Halbert during a select committee hearing.

What is particularly interesting is the history of that complaint.

Shannan Halbert attempted to resolve this particular issue privately with Van Der Molen but Van Der Molen refused to accept that he had done anything wrong.  Similar attempts to resolve the matter with National’s whips met with the same response. The complaint was then laid.

In this particular case no attempt to resolve the matter privately has been made. National and its puppet parties have gone to town.

I hope Julie Anne Genter gets a break, gets her head together and gets back to talk about the importance of urban form, sustainable transport and looking after our environment.

And I hope that there is a real consequence for politicians who do not discuss issues using reality as a basis and who are willing to wreck our environment in the pursuit of dumb, future destroying culture wars for the political advantage of their funders and masters.

203 comments on “In defence of Julie Anne Genter ”

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  1. mac1 1
    2 May 2024 at 9:28 pm

    Watching the footage of parliament on TV1, what struck me was the look on the face of Minister in the chair, Simeon Brown.

    I'll not describe here what I saw, but let others see what they see.

  2. Kat 2
    2 May 2024 at 9:44 pm

    Agree that the Greens leadership have mishandled this, they should be supporting Genter, as you say calling this rubbish out. I thought Swarbrick stood for the truth.

    • Traveller 2.1
      2 May 2024 at 10:13 pm

      "Agree that the Greens leadership have mishandled this,"

      No they haven't. Julie Anne Genter's behaviour has been criticised from across the political divide (Fresh allegations of intimidation emerge against Green MP Julie Anne Genter, Wellington florist calls her a bully – NZ Herald). It has resulted in a spate of negative publicity and shone (unwelcome) light again on other recent problems the Green Party leadership have faced with their MP's. They are also having to deal with further allegations of bullying against Genter (about which they had no prior knowledge), and formal complaints to the Speaker which could result in one of their MP's before the Privileges Committee.

      This is an extract from a statement from the Green party"

      "Julie Anne's actions in the House last night were unacceptable and fall short of the high standards the Green Party expects of its MPs,"

      "The co-leaders took immediate action to initiate a disciplinary process and will be working with Julie Anne to make sure this behaviour is not repeated."

      Greens had 'no prior knowledge' of new complaint against Julie Anne Genter | Newshub

      The Green Party leadership (from what is in the public domain) have acted swiftly and appropriately.

      • mickysavage 2.1.1
        3 May 2024 at 7:19 am

        Hmmm anti cycleway flourist kept her cool completely and did not do anything provocative and Genter did not film her for protective cover …

        • Cinder 2.1.1.1
          3 May 2024 at 8:01 am

          I lived in Newtown until a month ago and consider that florist to be an inveterate liar seeking to blame her failing business on the cycleway rollout. She is rabid about it.

          A few facts about the matter. :

          Wellington hospital no longer allow flowers in shared wards for obvious reasons. As a hay-fever sufferer I applaud that rule

          She has never had carparks outside her shop. There are a half dozen across the road and they're still there.

          On a pole literally outside her shop there is signage indicating there is parking around the corner under the Countdown supermarket, less than 2 minutes walk away.

          Many of my friends and neighbours in Newtown love the new cycleways which facilitate the safe travel of themselves and their children.

          Marama Davidson may have apologised to the florist, but that was probably just damage control given all the poor actions and decisions by Green MPs recently.

          Until any video evidence of the event comes to light, I'm willing to believe the florist is the one who escalated it into some sort of fracas

          • Shanreagh 2.1.1.1.1
            3 May 2024 at 10:23 am

            Just a point of correction to this:

            She has never had carparks outside her shop. There are a half dozen across the road and they're still there.

            She has in fact has had parks outside her shop…..there was a bank of 4-5 parks there that were removed long, long before the cycle/bus lane. WCC removed them to create a long double car lane there instead of 1 and bit and then a 2-3 car length of clear area to duck into while waiting for the lights. There was something about the consultation, or lack of it, a WCC feature, that gave rise to court cases and the upshot was that parking was found in the supermarket area that was just being built at the time.

            This person has a recognised floristry business as opposed to having pre made bunches of flowers that you find at the supermarkets and some dairies. This business using Interflora? relies on couriers being able to stop quickly and collect bouquets. She does a lot of weddings.

            Whether she is difficult to deal with or not has nothing to do with it. She, in my mind, has had a bit of a bad deal (understatement!) from WCC and understandably is reflecting one of the trends in the Newtown, Berhampore & Island Bay communities and that is utter frustration at the WCC who refuse to compromise and who ride rough shod over much of the views of the community.

            As a bit of background we have two streets in my suburb where a minority of residents have off street parking – this being a suburb founded in 1890s-1910.

            It is a largely working class area being a port of first call for many refugees and immigrants over the years. Money is short and parents often have two jobs relying on split second timing between the parents so there is someone at home all the time.

            Despite what people will tell you Wellington's bus service is primed for office workers and so telling shift workers to get buses is a little silly. Many of these families have two cars. They live in houses with no off street parking. So they park on the street. Add in to the mix the impact of the hospital where staff also work on shift work. The hospital has a lack of parking on its site. Public transport does work for many staff because of the hours.

            So instead of looking at ways to alleviate the impact of the hospital over parking at least, ie by working with the Hospital to have parking on its own site WCC choses this time to

            1 strip out all the parking on the side of the street with little off street parking to put a cycle lane there.

            2 create a residents only park on the other side at a cost of $200apx per annum that is not long enough for all the cars displaced.

            3 create a series of three hour max parking in all the neighbouring streets so even if the families get one resident's park, they or their families will be juggling/driving to find a park nearby. They will then have to juggle the car constantly to avoid the attentions of the parking wardens.

            4 the WCC even refused to allow for parking outside the local Drs' surgery where 8 Drs practice. They have now allowed for a measly 2 spaces.

            5 the other street will be similarly affected. Parking on both sides removed for cycle lanes. Neither side has a majority of homes with off street parking. One side has flat land where it may be possible to build a pull off area. The other side is on a rise or spur and the houses are on top of that with homes accessed by steps. There are a couple of garages dug into the sides of the hill but to do this now will be very very expensive earthworks-wise.

            There are so few cyclists using the lanes created so far that one of the locals has called them 'ghost' cyclists or perhaps in the vernacular of oldies we could call them 'Claytons cyclists'.

            We have always had cyclists and as long as I can remember there has never been any major kerfuffles.

            WCC has put the provision of cycle lanes over the improvements to public transport which, in dry as dust economic theory, should have access to the majority of funds. (bangs for bucks & greatest good etc).

            Coupled with poor consultation methods, an obdurate refusal to compromise on anything, WCC is not endearing itself to parts of the community. I for one value having the people coming in from all over the world to refresh our communities, in fact probably I would value them more than cycle lanes (but don't hit me) To be a welcoming place means accepting that first generation will work hard at all sorts of jobs to give their children mostly educational advantages. I for one don't want to live/work in a twee middle class suburb.

            All of this has come about from a Green facing Council. Our suburb did have our Labour Councillor Nureddin Abdurahman try to broker a compromise. He got a couple of the thinker/independents on his side with it. Eventually the amendments were lost. We wait construction/future with trepidation.

            Oh and I haven't mentioned that in the interests of this cycle lane access has been denied to parts of one suburb by closing down a right turn then routing traffic through previously quiet residential streets in Newtown or up a very steep narrow street, with a gradient close to that of Baldwin st in Dunedin.

            This is the same Green Council that is wanting to introduce water meters.

            None of the plans I have heard talked about recognise the undue impact that water chagres will have on low income families, large families or people looking after oldies who may need access to lots of water for health needs.

            None have recognised that an allowance system can work well with higher penalties for wasteful use, allowance for low income people. Kapiti Coast District Council also runs a water rating system. It has no allowance and ostensibly has a programme for help for low income/high users. The rate of take up is low so effectively this is a notional or feel good provision only.

            https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-11-02-2023/#comment-1934953

            So clearly WCC, both in its handling of cycles ways and water has not grasped the difference between equity and equality.

            https://www.marinhhs.org/sites/default/files/boards/general/equality_v._equity_04_05_2021.pdf

            https://humanrights.gov.au/lets-talk-about-equality-and-equity

            Yes so I'm more pro people than anti cycle-ways that have their place.

            Remembering these are not big long flat wide streets but mostly narrower roads giving access to older houses with no off street parking. A large number of the residents in my suburb work a couple of jobs, some with unsociable hours. They need access to cars, they are never going to get on a bike and travel across Wellington for an 11.00pm shift at a factory, cleaning job etc.

          • veutoviper 2.1.1.1.2
            3 May 2024 at 4:44 pm

            Cinder, I find your comments about the Newtown florist offensive (and possibly defamatory), having known her for many years. She is a highly liked and successful florist who has operated "Four Seasons" for over 28 years since about 1995/6.

            Prior to that, Four Seasons Florists was owned and operated for many years by John Gilberthorpe, a former Labour Wellington City Councillor (1986-1996), after years as Chair of the Wellington South Licensing Trust and president of the Island Bay Residents Association. After exiting politics in 1996, John became an executive director of the Wellington Museums Trust.

            I also knew John well back in the 1980s/90s when I was an elected member of the Newtown Residents Association and worked with him on a number of local projects. There were always car parks in front of Four Seasons in those days and in the following two+ decades.

            I know that whole area well having been born in Wellington Hospital and grown up in Adelaide Road – in fact my parents' families go back to pre 1900s in Newtown/Berhampore. While I lived/studied/worked overseas for many years when younger, I have been back in south Wellington since the 1980s. Wellington Hospital is almost my "second home" again – and frankly the current cycleway set-up outside the Hospital is a shambles IMO. It is an "accident waiting going to happen" for anyone with mobility disabilities and/or limited sight. I have been bowled by a cyclist who ran a red light on one occasion, and had at least two nearmisses so far.

            I totally agree with everything Shanreagh has said in her 10.23am comment – and could add a great deal more re water infrastructure and cycleways further south – but won't. I have no confidence left in our current council whatsoever – although many of the problems go back to previous Councils.

            Re Genter, I have always had great respect for her knowledge/skills in relation to transport and similar – but not so much on some other issues not for discussion in this context.

            However, her behaviour the other night reminded me of an occurrence some years ago (2017) when I witnessed her behaviour in a local supermarket which I found somewhat inappropriate. I will leave it at that but it did affect my attitude towards her for quite some time. She did get my vote (somewhat reluctantly) in the last general election …

            • Shanreagh 2.1.1.1.2.1
              4 May 2024 at 12:14 am

              Veutoviper. Thanks for the memories re John Gilberthorpe. He was great as a Councillor and I had forgotten he used to own Four Seasons. Another good one was Audrey Fitzgerald, going back a few years. I have no idea what party/ies these two supported but Audrey F was Hon Duncan MacIntyre's daughter. Audrey F took on liaison with the Berhampore community and was exemplary. Both were not afraid to stand up for 'their' communities.

              The important thing was that they acted for their communities and pushed for solutions that fitted these communities. We need that kind of care back again.

              • Dennis Frank …
                4 May 2024 at 3:53 am

                I support your stance & that of VV whilst agreeing also with Cinder in respect of changing times. Does a local business, clearly supported in the local economy, have the right to persist. I suspect yes is the right answer, despite usually having to oppose the notion of business rights!

                Sure, relocating is a pragmatic option, but why allow the anonymous bureaucrats their victory? Promoting the user rights of cyclists over the interests of others involved is merely Green ideology gone wrong. Common sense ought to prevail instead. Bureaucracy will always resist that but defaulting to obeisance is a loser's play…

                • Shanreagh …
                  4 May 2024 at 1:34 pm

                  Thanks Dennis.

                  I think much of the concern is as much for the content of the decisions made as to the poor quality of the consultation.

                  Many of us now are grappling with a Govt that is acting unilaterally to repeal legislation and introduce other legislation without consultation or with consultation that may be in name only without being able to influence what is going on. Many women were concerned/outraged at the concept of the No Debate changes to the Birth. Deaths & Marriages legislation.

                  No consultation leaves a bad taste.

                  WCC on the other hand does 'consult' but there is a strong element of predetermination in that very little that residents say has any chance of effecting change. I call it 'Clayton's' consultation or now with the new vernacular courtesy of the florist, we could call it 'ghost' consultation.

                  I analysed the submissions on our latest round. I found that the firm asked to summarise the views did a good job of that.

                  The problems seem to be with:

                  • the predetermined views of the majority of Councillors, who vote according to a party ticket, or
                  • the constant advice and interjections from Council Officers at the meetings, seeming to keep 'them', the councillors in line.

                  Whatever is going on in both our local govt via the Greens and our national Government via the coalition they seemed very similar in how they treat the views of citizens, if they seek them and consider them at all.

                  Our local (Labour) Councillor, Nureddin Abdurahman made himself available to us to seek compromises at the very last meeting before the ideas were set in concrete. These were compromises that would have made the lives of residents less problematic but were 'no skin off the nose' of the concept. He was able to influence a couple of the independent thinkers on Council, one of whom Ray Chung, asked questions of officials, and by the looks was not impressed with the answers.

                  Our councillor asked about the futility of asking for comments and then disregarding anything that came forward. The responses were like water off a duck's back. Not concerned at all. So he lost 3-5 to a bloc voting en masse.

                  In my working life I was involved in years of consulation on various pieces of legislation and policy work. We held to the notion that as drafters of documents we couldn't possibly know everything there was to know about a policy, legislation or impact. This meant that consultation fulfilled a vital role. We learned, we adapted and whatever came out was the better for it.

                  I was involved in the very first rounds of consultation about the cycle lanes, years ago. I have been involved in every public process since.

                  The influence of the public has been exactly nil with the same plans put forward all those years ago being adopted. The only changes have been minor and technical relating to the angles of pull in/out areas outside a dairy and then correcting the omission of parking outside a Drs' surgery where 8 doctors practice.

                  This lack of action resulting from consultation stinks to me.

                  In the consultation world where I worked, at a relatively high level for 20 odd years, there is no such thing as a perfect draft policy. There are always improvements and the ability to call stop any time goes without saying and is always an option.

                  Wellingtonians have been badly servied by a 'mini me' version of the Greens in our local authority. They have resolutely or slavishly? followed the diktats of the party rather than working for the good of the city and its residents. (They are not the same thing)

                  Major national political party involvement at local body level does not work in my view.

                  A variety of views from a variety of councillors all with the best interests of Wellington at heart does.

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    4 May 2024 at 1:56 pm

                    I get the picture, now you have filled it out. Democracy becomes toxic via mass cynicism is one take. Gaming the system via interest-group exclusionary Us vs Them divide & rule tactics is another.

                    Since the Greens emerged with a different way forward I can't help but see no evidence of it in the situation – they seem to have decided to give up on that. I don't expect them to succeed by reciprocating the tactics of their opponents. Either naive, morally corrupt, or both.

                    Inevitably they will produce a backlash from voters – perhaps they lack the intelligence to learn and adapt on the job before that happens.

              • veutoviper …
                5 May 2024 at 2:11 pm

                Shanreagh, off topic but haven't heard anything re John G for years and came up with this link which I thought you might enjoy –

                https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/director-returns-for-comic-look-at-kiwi-dating/3I4SSDBYS3RIHEBL4LCLZSE4J4/

                Seems he is still involved with the Greytown theatre from this one I found after the one above – https://www.greytownlittletheatre.co.nz/contact

                Also off topic, I suspect our paths have crossed possibly on the local issues side and /or also possibly in paid work – in my case 43 years PS mainly in Wgtn, some years in London, and included a lot of visits and a number of secondments to "the Precinct".

                Back on topic, I notice no-one has yet mentioned here the latest to come forward on JAC – Simon Woolf.

                https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/350266923/more-incidents-involving-green-mp-julie-anne-genter-claimed

                Decided I didn't want to stir the cinders …

                • Shanreagh …
                  5 May 2024 at 7:37 pm

                  Thank you for the update re John. I look up at his former house from the street I live in. He is a great person. We need more of his calibre in our Councils rather than those councillors who are not able to think for themselves or for their residents.

                  Yes undoubtedly we have crossed paths…small world as they say.

                  Yes I saw the Simon Woolf write-up. I also think JAG may not be able to 'read' NZers. She may also suffer from the mindset that if we are not riding bikes that we are not doing our bit re climate change, so an arch 'my way or the highway' person. In this latest bit about cycle lanes I met more of that type than I ever thought possible. It has also brought home the closeness in some views that the hard right and the hard left have, albeit getting there through different paths.

                  Go well in our communities and I am sure that we will cross paths in the future. smiley

                  • Cinder …
                    5 May 2024 at 8:15 pm

                    You only "met more of that type" because you attacked my character and then began spouting nonsense which needed to be called out.

                    And because I pressed you on it the truth came out – Your idea of compromise was consigning cyclists to the backroads and not safely linking them to the the destinations they need to reach. Thats not compromise – thats apartheid.

                    You have failed to acknowledge a single point I raised and just blabbed on about flowers.

                    You know sweet fuck all about transport solutions and are uninterested in learning anything about it, which makes you singularly unsuited to participating in discussions about addressing the future needs of our communities.

                    And once again – Just because you sat on various boards and served in community groups doesn't mean you speak for your entire community. You're supposedly an adult and should know thats a fact.

                    Get used to your nonsense on this matter being challenged.

                    • Shanreagh …
                      5 May 2024 at 10:29 pm

                      Well if you saw yourself in this this comment by me then you're more Trumpian than I thought you were. NB my discussion is not about you but was to Veutoviper who is one of those currently affected by ill-thought out variations to transport modes. Neither of us have said we are against cycling just where WCC wants to put them. Of course we feel for those whose lives will be badly affected by the placement of some of these lanes.

                      Judging by the non arguments and personal invective that you have been writing I can say that the 'my way or the highway' people were at least focussed on discussion. To be clear I was not referring to you in this comment or in any of the comments about John Gilberthorpe etc. My comments referred to happenings in our community long before the topic was raised on The Standard a couple of days ago, though I guess if one was self absorbed you could think that my phrase ‘latest bit’ might have trapped you into thinking it was about you. It wasn’t.

                      She may also suffer from the mindset that if we are not riding bikes that we are not doing our bit re climate change, so an arch 'my way or the highway' person. In this latest bit about cycle lanes I met more of that type than I ever thought possible. It has also brought home the closeness in some views that the hard right and the hard left have, albeit getting there through different paths.

                      I was hoping to get some comment about the dangers of being so hard left that one's views become indistinguisable from the hard right.

                      For instance some of the arguments floated by The Greens about people having to pay to use the road in front of houses where there is no problem with traffic bear a concerning similarity to those of user pays ACT that were so boring in the end that Rt Hon Helen Clark used the old quote

                      'They know the cost of everything and the value of nothing' to describe them.

                      It was aimed at ACT but could equally be aimed at some of the more florid examples of Green economics we see in parts of the Yimby movement and hard Greens (I suspect that JAG would be classed as one in some aspects?)

                      https://jacobin.com/2023/09/yimby-housing-supply-land-monopoly-rent-prices

                    • Cinder []
                      6 May 2024 at 6:47 am

                      Oh piss off. Again, stop playing the vctim. You attacked me first regarding what you called worrying beliefs.

                      If you think that improving road safety is a left /right thing then it proves you are a deeply unserious person.

                      You're not able to address anything I have raised, which concerns improved outcomes across a range of matters because you have stuck your fingers in your ears a long time ago.

                      You really do exemplify a lot of what's wrong with Wellington but are too privileged to even know it.

                • Shanreagh …
                  5 May 2024 at 10:42 pm

                  Decided I didn't want to stir the cinders …

                  Never fear..they seek & find. wink

                  • Cinder …
                    6 May 2024 at 7:11 am

                    Also.

                    I've seen you banging on about being children being potentially harmed when transitioning.

                    Zero fucking concern for children being killed and injured on our roads though. A regular event throughout Aotearoa.

                    2 children killed in 1 week on driveways in South Auckland last month.

                    The potential harm to young and old from our terrible car culture is well evidenced and dwarfs anything to do with medical transition

                    You're either a bigot or a fucking hypocrite.

                    Probably both.

                    • Shanreagh …
                      6 May 2024 at 10:30 am

                      You're either a bigot or a fucking hypocrite.

                      Probably both.

                      At least my command of the English language means I don't have to resort to swearing/foul language as a go-to insult.

                      You're wandering all over the place in your attempts to get to me. Sorry it won't work

                      Have a nice day and great move away from our suburbs. smiley

                    • Cinder []
                      6 May 2024 at 6:38 pm

                      I left Newtown, for all you know I'm just down the street from you…

                      No, you don't seem to swear. But because you're a typically institutionalised public servant you gossip behind people's back, diminish those with a greater depth of knowledge of the issues to hand, avoid doing the work necessary to reach that level of understanding, dodge the difficult questions, stick to the status quo, and undermine those seeking to achieve better outcomes for everyone in this country.

                      As I initially said to you, the language I employ on the Internet is far removed from that which I use in my professional life. I am often asked to represent the businesses and organisations I work with due to my eloquence, extensive vocabulary, graciousness and command of the subject matter.

                      But I do believe you're a bit senile and can't remember what you said a day ago.

                  • Shanreagh …
                    6 May 2024 at 10:37 am

                    And they have

                    'This time …..racing down the straight with a heavy weight of handicapping insults, whipping into a froth of bad language, there'll be no chance of this horse being convincing at this distance…….

                    …..commentary in the voice of Fred Dagg

                    smiley

        • Kay 2.1.1.2
          3 May 2024 at 8:04 am

          Mickey. It's not necessarily a case of being 'anti-cycleway.' It's the way the whole cycleway system in Wellington has happened/still happening. No common sense by the designers, and total disregard for public submissions right from the start, that only happened because it was a legal requirement. A lot of people have had their lives upended by said cycleways, and we are being completely ignored by the Councillors that voted for it.

          Personally, There are people who can no longer come an visit me because they (might) find a parking spot a 10 minute walk away. I have to walk much further to the only spot a taxi can now pull over, and there's times I can't, so I'm trapped at home by a cycle way that is barely used. A lot of people with mobility problems have been badly affected.

          If this florist lost her cool then I'm not surprised, and just about everyone around here would support her. Especially if she were up against a cycleway zealot. I'm in JAG's electorate, and I can imagine I'd loose my cool too. We tried to be reasonable for years, to offer common sense alternatives for routes and designs, but we've been ignored every step of the way, and there's a lot of really angry people around. Politicians have to understand that.

          • mickysavage 2.1.1.2.1
            3 May 2024 at 8:17 am

            A lot of people are going to have their lives upended by climate change and the destruction of the earth's eco systems.

            We have to change the way our cities function. It will caise disruption and dislocation. But the alternative is much worse.

            • Kay 2.1.1.2.1.1
              3 May 2024 at 8:32 am

              I don't disagree. believe it or not, I agree with cycleways. I just wish I was still able to cycle to make use of them. My point is, a lot of this collateral damage isn't actually necessary. It's possible for cycleways to exist, and not so many people have their lives upended because of them. But when the powers that be ignore practically all sensible solutions and just plough ahead, then yes, it will turn an awful lot of people off them, even those who are well aware of the bigger picture.

              Not getting the public onside right from the start was completely counterproductive to the goal.

              • Shanreagh …
                3 May 2024 at 10:39 am

                Yes Kay, well spoken.

                There are good ways and bad ways to effect change. WCC has chosen the bad way to effect change. They consult with a predetermined outcome in mind, compromise is not one of the words in their lexicon. This is a 'recent' change well last 10 or so years. As a member of a residents committee since the 1980s we have had a long history of having good councillors and effecting change, bringing forward ideas. For instance our Cttee was intrumental in greening our suburbs by pressing for street trees, by seeking to have noxious and light industry blighting our suburbs and our biggest victory and that was to hasten the move of Athletic Park our from our quiet suburb where we live quiet lives to industrial land near the rail in Wgtn CBD.

                I think Mickey you speak cruelly when bringing in the climate change big stick to shut us all up.

                Consultation and listening to residents has peripheral relevance to climate change and relevance to how the low income people live their lives. Most of us are aware of climate change & live our lives accordingly.

                I fail to see why those who chose to cycle will be banging on the green doors in heaven with a greater claim than others who are choosing to do other green things of equal value. It is rubbish to hold this out as nirvana.

            • Bearded Git 2.1.1.2.1.2
              3 May 2024 at 9:30 am

              +100 Micky

            • Bryan Leyland 2.1.1.2.1.3
              3 May 2024 at 9:36 am

              Micky, as you should know, nothing that New Zealand does will make the slightest difference to the climate. For as long as China and India are building coal fired power stations at a rapid rate all the money and effort to we spend on trying to reduce emissions is totally wasted. What we should be doing is making sure that we can withstand whatever an ever-changing climate visits upon us.

              • weka …
                3 May 2024 at 9:59 am

                Micky, I let this one through because it's your post, but also fine to move it to OM if you prefer.

              • weka …
                3 May 2024 at 10:02 am

                Anyone who argues we can adapt to runaway climate change is either ignorant of what the climate crisis is, or is running climate denial lines. At this point, given how much your argument has been dismantled, it's hard to not see it as wilful ignorance at best.

                All the small emitters add up to 30% of global emissions. That means we all have to change. If China and India make the necessary changes in the coming decade, as we don't, we're all fucked.

                There's also a moral issue of expecting others to go through hardship when we are not willing to. NZ could be world leaders on mitigation with adaptation. Someone has to go first, why not us?

                • James Thrace …
                  3 May 2024 at 10:33 am

                  Weka, your first and last paragraphs are contradictory.

                  you first state “anyone who argues we can adapt… is ignorant”

                  then in your last paragraph you state “nz could be world leaders with adaptation”

                  so if NZ becomes a world leader with adaptation, it is also ignorant?

                  • weka …
                    3 May 2024 at 12:18 pm

                    reread it. I didn't say that.

                    • James Thrace …
                      3 May 2024 at 1:59 pm

                      Mitigation is just another word for adaptation given adaptation of various measures is required in any event.

                    • weka []
                      3 May 2024 at 2:36 pm

                      not really. Mitigation is specifically the acts of decarbonisation. Adaptation technically doesn’t involve that, but rather taking actions to deal with the effects of CC.

                      The best solutions do both, and once we get there mitigation and adaptation are two sides of the same coin. But the people currently arguing for adaptation and against mitigation are arguing for something that is frankly dangerous. Without mitigation, climate change will become so bad that civilisation will collapse. We may survive that as a species (I think we probably will), but it’s not going to be pretty.

              • Kokako …
                4 May 2024 at 9:24 am

                This is such a redundant justification for doing nothing locally to address a planet-wide issue that it is almost cliche in the face of available data. It's pathetic.

            • KJT 2.1.1.2.1.4
              3 May 2024 at 9:38 am

              I am not surprised Genter lost her cool.

              Well researched effort over years, faced with fatuous ignorance coupled with blatent lying. Which does way more damage to our parliament and country than someone briefly losing their composure in the face of it. Why is lying to Parliament OK? But getting angry with a lying twit, is not.

              This is why I could never stand for Parliament. Despite being very much anti-violence, the temptation to wipe the fatuous smirk off, the blatently lying prick across the aisle, would be too much for me.

              And the Greens dissappointing lack of understanding and spine in backing each other has been a feature since Metiria. Only exceeded by Labour's lack of spine in backing their own progressive social and tax policies.

        • Traveller 2.1.1.3
          3 May 2024 at 8:32 am

          I understand your point, you may well be right. But the GP leadership have to deal with what they know as it unfolds. If they played ‘blame the victim’ it would bounce back on them.

          • Bearded Git 2.1.1.3.1
            3 May 2024 at 9:35 am

            Neither Doocey nor the florist are "victims". They were both highly provocative.

            Good on Genter for being passionate arguing to change the balance between spending on roads versus spending in cycleways/public transport.

            Doocey and the florist are climate change denier dinosaurs*.

            *Here I am taking note of Cinder's factual comments above re the florist.

            • Shanreagh 2.1.1.3.1.1
              3 May 2024 at 10:58 am

              Doocey was not a victim any more than anyone who heckles persistently is a victim.

              Julie AnnGneter lost her cool, so what she is human, she apologised and if there are concerns then she should be referred to the parliamnetary privileges cttee. Van de Molen was referred there after the Halbert incident and it is the appropriate place to go. And as for some on X/Twitter trying to establish that this outburst is in the same league as a possible defamatory action involving two countries (Aus/NZ Carr/Peters statement) words fail me……the two could not be less alike.

              Re the florist, don't believe everything you read. She has been badly treated in her dealings with WCC as have many citizens who have used consultation and their own councillors to bring forth their views. They do so on the understanding that WCC will listen to its citizens. It does not.

              WCC is a crock at the moment. I must admit for one second when it was rumoured that WCC was top of the pops in Simeon Brown's watch list of hopeless councils and may get Commissioners, I thought this might be a solution. Of course it is not but the thought was there…..I don't know what has gone wrong.

              I for one think it shows up the folly of having rigid party type groups in local authorities where the best people are those who have no party axe to grind but a willingness to think and do for their local area.

              • Bearded Git …
                3 May 2024 at 11:20 am

                Yes in the QLDC we don't have parties for Council elections-it helps because there are few arguments between factions.

                • Shanreagh …
                  3 May 2024 at 11:56 am

                  Yes in the 'olden days' Wellington had only minor tampering/involvement from parties in Parliament.

                  The factional stuff is mind blowing when you see so-called Green councillors supporting a plan to bail out Warner Bros to the tune of $36m in the Reading Cinema kerfuffle. (Because they were 'whipped' to I suppose.)

            • Traveller 2.1.1.3.1.2
              3 May 2024 at 12:04 pm

              You’ve taken Cinder’s comment on face value, but ignored the balance provided by others.

              And if someone stands over you waving papers in an obviously aggressive manner, as acknowledged by her own Gp colleagues. then yes you are the victim.

              • Bearded Git …
                3 May 2024 at 1:12 pm

                Even though you have been yelling blatant lies from your seat across the aisle?

                And what is so sacrosanct about this aisle….if that was the easiest way to get Doocey to retract his lies, to stick the report in his face was a good way. JAG should not have shouted at him….but then show me a member of parliament who doesn't yell across the aisle

                • Traveller …
                  3 May 2024 at 2:08 pm

                  Have you seen the Hansard? Doocey’s throw away line was part of the banter of the session. It is commonplace in parliament. Reacting as Genter did is not acceptable, or Parliament will turn into a circus.

            • veutoviper 2.1.1.3.1.3
              3 May 2024 at 5:11 pm

              "*Here I am taking note of Cinder's factual comments above re the florist."

              "factual" ????

              I refer you to my comment at 2.1.1.1.2 above – https://thestandard.org.nz/in-defence-of-julie-anne-genter/#comment-1998510

              I don't know about Doocey – but I certainly question your "suggestion" that the florist is a "climate change denier dinosaur" from my personal experience.

              You could also check out her Four Seasons Facebook page as to her history and popularity running her business for almost 30 years.

        • Cricklewood 2.1.1.4
          3 May 2024 at 10:11 am

          Marama Davidson about the florist's encounter to which she replied: "I understand that Julie Anne did pull a phone out and video the florist – that is completely unacceptable.

          Given the comments from Green leadership im going to make the assumption that the florists account is somewhat accruate.

          • Shanreagh 2.1.1.4.1
            3 May 2024 at 11:03 am

            You'd be correct I'm thinking.

            She may be difficult personally but her business has been treated abysmally over the years. Those two facts should not have anything to do with one another.

            Genter may be her MP. As her electorate MP she would be honour bound to listen and advise and take up her cause if needed or at least give a steer to get help. Electorate MPs do have a role here and the best of them ususally don't march around with a party political flag around their necks. The work that an electorate MP does transcends the party political.

        • Anne 2.1.1.5
          3 May 2024 at 10:31 am

          mickysavage @2.1.1

          Lets see… so this florist got in touch with JAG and JAG went to see her in order to discuss her problem. Instead she got ram-roaded (metaphorically speaking) and felt she might be a unsafe so she films the encounter?

          Plausible to me.

          • Traveller 2.1.1.5.1
            3 May 2024 at 12:15 pm

            https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/05/julie-anne-genter-outburst-fresh-allegation-of-intimidation-surfaces-against-green-mp.html

            Last week, Genter stopped by and Newcombe said the pair got into a heated exchange about Genter's advocacy for the cycleways.

            "She was very intimidating. She pulled out her phone, she put the phone camera right in my face and I was like 'Okay, you need to leave now' and then she started yelling and screaming over me that I didn't care about her kids cycling," Newcombe said.

            Newshub asked Green co-leader Marama Davidson about the florist's encounter to which she replied: "I understand that Julie Anne did pull a phone out and video the florist – that is completely unacceptable."

          • Cricklewood 2.1.1.5.2
            3 May 2024 at 12:19 pm

            If that was the case why would Marama hang her out to dry when asked for comment?

            • Cinder 2.1.1.5.2.1
              3 May 2024 at 12:59 pm

              Cycleways are not just about climate change.

              I have been hit 3 times by motorists when cycling. Through no fault of my own.

              Each time involved significant hospital time, medical intervention and rehabilitation. The second occasion required major dental work which ran into the tens of thousands of dollars of dental work. All paid via ACC.

              On each of those three occasions, the motorist didn't even stop. The worst event I don't even recall happening, was cycling and then woke up in hospital.

              New Zealand motorists have a terrible sense of entitlement which needs to change.

              And having worked with low income and disabled communities in Aotearoa, I can tell you many of them either cannot afford to drive or are unable to, or barred from driving.

              And no business should feel that local government has to tailor driving and parking to facilitate their specific business practices.

              I submitted on the Newtown parking permit proposal asking that revenue from it be directed to providing security escorts for staff travelling to their cars in the evening / night.

              • Traveller …
                3 May 2024 at 2:18 pm

                And no business should feel that local government has to tailor driving and parking to facilitate their specific business practices.

                I’m not sure anyone does. But Wellington, like Auckland, is doing a terrible job at taking people along with the changes being made. I live in a suburb that is being changed significantly to accomodate cycle ways. The consultation was farcical, the final results invariably require some form over-engineering. There is an entirely ‘holier than thou’ approach to all of this that is IMHO manifest in Genter’s behaviour.

              • Shanreagh …
                3 May 2024 at 2:27 pm

                You are keen on cycleways I get that but was there a need to slam the florist, particularly when some of it was not correct?

                She has never had carparks outside her shop. There are a half dozen across the road and they're still there.

                See my comments above @ 10.23am.

                I don't think anyone has said or believes that businesses have been asking for or deserve to have WCC

                tailor driving and parking to facilitate their specific business practices.

                What they can expect, and should get, is a careful consideration of their views, a lack of pre-determination in considering submissions and a willingness to change course and to compromise where the situation demands it.

                All of those aspects were far from evidenced in much of what passes for consultation here in Wellington recently.

                As shops have a vital role in bringing people in relation to 'commerce' and $$$ makes the world go round, it stands to reason that consultation with shopowners will be/should be exemplary. Commercial rates bring in a large proportion of the WCC rating take. We want them happy and prosperous, at least I do, as that will mean that the impost on me as a fixed income ratepayer is lessened.

                If they leave, as a couple have already on Adelaide Road (with difficult access caused by the cycle-way being a factor) to set-up business in Petone/Hutt/Upper Hutt then we don't benefit from their rates/vibrancy/business.

                • Cinder …
                  3 May 2024 at 6:26 pm

                  Don't you hate it when the person you're supporting makes you look like an idiot

                  "she wanted a loading zone outside her shop"

                  https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/515905/florist-says-julie-anne-genter-exchange-was-massive-imbalance-of-power

                  So, she wanted to block 1 lane of a 2 lane ateriel route for the convenience of her business.

                  We all know that motorists abuse parking and loading zones.

                  At the expense of all traffic and impose immense risk on people trying to reduce traffic and emissions.

                  The adjacent bookstore and antiques shop manage without a loading zone and I honestly don't care if she has gammy legs as she shows no regard for the safety of others in a more vulnerable situation.

                  Cities change and businesses come and go. People need to adapt to that. I personally have shifted cities 4 times within NZ to follow my profession but I never expected others to carry the costs.

                  The "ghost cycleways" bullshit just shows she isn't up and about at commuting hours. There are a large number of cyclists using that route and the commuter buses are typically standing room only, if you can actually get onto one.

                  Breaking car dependency needs to begin with people at an early age and providing safe alternatives for youth is key to that.

                  Also, are her flowers imported? A huge amount are, so what's the carbon footprint of her business?

                  I think she's just a entitled moron who puts her profit above the lives of others.

                  • joe90 …
                    3 May 2024 at 6:34 pm

                    I think she's just a entitled moron who puts her profit above the lives of others.

                    Could be…

                    .

                    Laura Newcombe’s flower shop and upstairs flat is on the same road as the hospital and is one of the buildings that need strengthening.

                    She’s been told it will cost about $750,000 and she’ll have to move out for a year while the work is done.

                    "I knew it would cost a lot but I didn't expect it to cost twice what I paid for the building."

                    Ms Newcombe is struggling to get a loan and fears for the future of her business.

                    "I just can get very anxious and quite stressed if you think about it all the time, but all you’ve got to do is you’ve got to keep working hard, work as many hours as you possibly can and just squirrel the money away."

                    Ms Newcombe argues that if the strengthening work is to protect the public then there should be some help from the public purse.

                    "The fact that it is for the public, it's just not reasonable, it’s not reasonable, central government really needs to step up."

                    https://www.1news.co.nz/2019/04/11/shorter-strengthening-timeframe-for-nearly-200-earthquake-prone-wellington-buildings/

                    edit:

                    Laura Newcombe, 28. March 2011, 11:22

                    The Mayor needs to apologise and compensate the businesses that she and her Council have destroyed.

                    The WCC notification that would destroy my business of 18 years was a small ad in the Dom in 2008 stating-
                    “107-08 Riddiford St -revised restrictions ”

                    This was the notification that nine carparks been removed from this shopping centre and no left turn into Adelaide Rd.

                    Riddiford St is a very long street. WCC seem totally incapable of engaging effectively with the public and act with impunity.

                    I knew this choice of Mayor wasn’t for the faint hearted, but this business genocide by the Mayor and her WCC is impossible for me to digest 3 miserable years on.

                    https://wellington.scoop.co.nz/?p=32436

                    • Shanreagh …
                      3 May 2024 at 11:10 pm

                      Actually Joe90 this latter para (2011) was one where I think WCC actually got egg on its face and ended up having to facilitate/perhaps pay for the purchase of several carparks for shoppers wanting to shop at the little area with the florists.

                      These were in a nearby supermarket that was under construction at the time.

                      The area ( Adelaide rd near the Basin Reserve turning to Riddiford street up to is a complete mess or monument to incompetent or one-eyed public planning.

                      'Talk about ugly Trev'

                  • Shanreagh …
                    3 May 2024 at 11:01 pm

                    'Ghost cyclists' though is priceless and will be heard around South Wellington as we marvel at the 'ghost cycleways'. I wonder will they eat 'ghost chips' while biking?

                    The antiques and book shop have been there much less time and with a two lane road already in existence. The florist is the only one of those businesses that has been there throughout the process from an area with parks and 1 and bit lanes, to two car lanes to now who knows, bit of a mess…..I travel it most days.

                    I don't think it is unreasonable to have a loading zone nearby and I understood the shopkeepers were recently keen on one at the back of the building.

                    Though bearing in mind that the road (Riddiford St) is not fantastically busy all day it surely could be possible for there to be a loading zone there during work hours with a clearway at peak hours. These are the kinds of compromises that one expects to be able to raise with a Council and have them considered in a reasonable way.

                    I actually don't think she is anything like what you are implying…'entitled XXXX'. It has been a salutary & unpleasant lesson to many of us used to working with Councils and other residents, achieving compromises etc, at the level of invective and expressions of 'my way or the highway' thrown our way by cycling people. I've never heard or seen anything like it. In large part it is led, by turning a blind eye, by WCC and its attitude to residents/ratepayers.

                    The rest of your post has some worrying attitudes, some bordering on possibly the politics of envy, disdain for people in business, disdain for the flowers used/appreciated by many during the births, deaths, marriages, graduation parts of our existence. I don't want to tackle them but they are bitter and typify the diversions into unrelated items that many of us faced when trying to achieve consensus/compromise. Like whacka mole we faced these diversions similar to your crack about imported flowers/miles etc. Wearying.

                    I travel, by car once a week to Karori. I work all day there making items for charitable use including for the homeless. A thought struck me as I passed by communities, many untouched, or where WCC had been knocked back on its plans.

                    This thought was that if I come back in another life I am going to choose a wealthy community to settle in. One where residents have the $$$$-power to tackle the Council's lack of consultation and overreach. Money is the only thing that will stop them or Simeon Brown putting WCC on top of the list of hopeless councils.

                    But it shouldn't be like this. People in poorer suburbs, trying to achieve compromise without having access to expensive legal representation are penalised as WCC just doesn't listen. It is inequitable. This is happening with a Greens dominated Council.

                    It is not just cycleways – the water situation is dire with chronic WCC underfunding over many years while we fiddle round with highly priced cycleways. Water is needed for life and public transport should have priority for money left after fixing the water situation.

                    We next have water meters, another inequitable impost on lower income families. The cycle lane one shot wonder proponents won't be working on the residents committees as we try to ameliorate the possible damage and get the best deal for residents esp in the poorer suburbs.

                    I get the feeling that many of those we dealt with or tried to, on the cycle lanes don't 'get' poverty or that money doesn't come on trees and how inequitable it is to treat unequal people equally.

                    Hopefully we will get some to show an interest in the suburbs they live or pass through on their bikes but I'm not holding my breath.

                    In the meantime lower Adelaide road is the ugliest I have ever seen it since moving here years ago. It is just unashamedly a mean looking race track with a forest of ugly marker posts delineating the boundary of the cycle lanes as well as industrial strength kerbing. Weird and inconsistent green markings and at least two businesses have closed since the cycle lanes were installed. Any thoughts of treeplanting or softening the approach to the southern suburbs that some of the residents/committees had is gone.

                    • Cinder …
                      4 May 2024 at 1:18 am

                      Shanreagh – You know nothing about me, if you want to engage in speculation I hope you enjoy the reciprocation, because I have no time for politeness and the gate keeping of bullshit gentile bourgeois language on the internet.

                      You "didn't want to tackle" my perceived character defects but you did. So I have my right of reply below

                      I lived in Newtown for 7 years – She never had carparks outside in that entire time. 7 years – 1/3rd of small businesses in NZ go to the wall inside 12 months with or without car parks.

                      You mention the new bookshop and antique shop – Do you think they would have blindly shifted in there given the existing infrastructure? Given that books, furniture, artworks and ceramics are significantly heavier than flowers? Engage your brain before typing.

                      The nearby cafe has gone through various owners and iterations and has been empty for months. Thats the nature of businesses.

                      Multiple studies shows that cycleways improve business in adjacent areas – worldwide.

                      https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/128749267/why-bike-lanes-are-actually-a-boon-for-business

                      Have you actually joined your thinking about transport and emergency services – doesn't look that way. If Ms Florist provides excuses for motorists to block an entire lane (And they will, you fucking know they will) while they illegally park – How are the ambulances going to deal with that when getting to and from the hospital? The location alone makes her demands – and they were demands – even more unreasonable.

                      You're delusional about the traffic volumes in that area. I used to travel through there daily, for 7 years, by bus and foot. Its ridiculous and getting worse.

                      Did you ever think that cyclists are quite passionate because they are putting their lives on the line? When was the last time you were on a bike? In heavy traffic? Its utterly terrifying – especially given the hostility towards them by drivers.

                      The reciprocation – And bear in mind, you started this:

                      If you think I envy a florist who doesn't give a fuck about peoples safety and exemplifies selfish NIMBYism, then you're even more delusional than I thought.

                      Now. I don't want to tackle them but… You do display some worrying attitudes..

                      Like trying to engage in some sort of philanthropic / charity work arms race with me. What a sad individual you must be. You say you make things, including for the homeless? Heaven forbid you actually talked to or engaged with one of them – they're dreadfully smelly you know.

                      I've met plenty of "grand old dames" of Wellington and you strike me as one. They are some of the most tedious, plum in mouth, un-informed, snooty, privileged shits I have ever had the displeasure of meeting. Gate keeping the acceptable arts, culture and literature, reeking of patchouli and talcum powder, constantly referencing their illustrious ancestors and the mother country and name dropping supposedly important figures from the family history – Sooooo fucking tedious and such an obvious display of insecurity. Posing as great white saviours and philanthropists while having a "career" as a professional "home maker" and "patron of the arts". Honestly, just the worst fucking people – And I know ACT voters!!!. Most of them aren't even that well off – just pretending to be and greasing up to the more affluent hoping for crumbs from the table, tugging their forlock and maybe hoping for an invite to some gala so they can "wow" their less well off friends. English class culture is alive and well in Wellington, its a shackle around its neck and maybe you're one of the links.? Maybe?

                      It seems that you are stuck in the past, wanting Wellington to be preserved in amber and just they way it was when you were in your glory days. I do not care about your sense of aesthetics being offended by the street scape on Adelaide road – As a motorist your primary duty is to ensure you are paying attention to the road and traffic, not gawking at the street furniture like some slack jawed yokel. Its all subjective anyway – There are many people who enjoy industrial / Brutalist / Stalinist architecture – You're just not sophisticated enough to understand it. Stick to your preferred Edwardian facades then. They proved to be fatal in Christchurch, but you just seem to want compromise for the sake of using that word like its some sort of sacrament and don't care if people die as a result.

                      As for the state of WCC finances and the infrastructure – thats on you, the older generation who paid sweet fuck all in rates for decades and loved the increasing property values and low cost of living. How dare you try and blame it on the new Council members, some of whom were not even born when you started to fuck it all up through your greed, negligence, avarice and lack of foresight. The fucking gall to have sat there, not paying your fair share and then start crying about the impact of it on impoverished communities. What a fucking cheek!

                      Remember – You took shots at me first. If you don't like it, don't dish it out.

                    • Shanreagh …
                      4 May 2024 at 8:48 am

                      Cinder. You could not be more wrong with your characterisation.

                      Why would me as a 'grande dame' as you say live on the super, a fixed income, drive a loaned 2000 registered Toyota. I worked for 43 years. My income does not enable me to support the arts, other than buying a sub to the film society, or to buy patchouli. I found I was allergic to this in any case years ago.

                      The rest is what residents have all become used to – the inability to discuss an issue without resorting to ad hominem attacks.

                      I mentioned the work for the homeless to emphasise that some of us work for our communities as in using talents we have to making things, supporting Residents Associations. We also volunteer and have done for years. Volunteers groupings are concerned at the ability of the community orgs or not for profits to survive after the current crop of volunteers, mainly long time 'boomers' die. There are just not the younger ones coming through.

                      So please stop with your mischaracterisations. It just makes you look silly as they are so wide of the mark. It is easier to stick to the topic really.

                      I also note that other long term south Wellington residents and posters here don't support the WCC and the way it has gone about not consulting with residents. Some I did not know was that they were residents in Wellington let alone being part of what the people of Newtown and Berhampore have been subjected to.

                      I mentioned driving to Karori. It is almost impossible to get to in a reasonable time frame by public transport. I know I have tried over the years. I had a job in Northland for several years. Try getting to that for an 8.00am start.

                      I also found the drive to Karori was a stark contrast to what we have been going through in other suburbs. One of the reasons I thought was because these residents have access to money to fight WCC overreach. And good on them for doing this, compromise is the name of the game.

                      People in the poorer suburbs should not be penalised though because we don't have access to 'the folding'. The system should work for everybody.

                      Thats what equity is all about.

                      PS Here in Berhampore we are lucky to have public housing designed by Pliscke. Could be brutalist, but is loved. It is horses for courses. Unlike some of the newer examples it actually does have character. Some of the buildings in Courtenay Place /Lambton Quay designed in the Chicago style. (Prudential building etc)

                      I lament the lack of trees and the fact that tiny shrubs and grasses are supposed to be a substitute and the large amounts of concrete around many of the new developments.

                      https://iucnurbanalliance.org/promoting-health-and-wellbeing-through-urban-forests-introducing-the-3-30-300-rule/

                    • Cinder []
                      4 May 2024 at 1:30 pm

                      You began it by mischaractering me and you didn't like it when I turned back on you.

                      I was a resident of Newtown until a month ago and it was you who began the adhominen attacks, so stop playing the victim.

                      Treat it as a learning exercise. Or just suck it up.

                      Many types of trees and shrubs block sightlines for motorists, endangering others and of course requiring council money to maintain.

                      I have no time for businesses who cannot exercise care towards their community and the wider world while demanding that others bend over backwards to accommodate their ruination of the public commons.

                      And there you go celebrating the wealthy fucking with council plans because you agree with their aims. Mostly maintaining their property values and locking others out of secure housing while engaging in lawfare which costs councils enormous amounts of time and money as they reconsider and present options over and over again to people who don't want the slightest reduction in their privilege. Remember what I said about tugging your forelock and hoping for crumbs?

                      Compromise? Ha! As I said above, non-motorists would like a minor swing towards improving their lot and not being treated like dirt. Fewer vehicles on the roads improves everyone's life, less noise, less pollution, greater safety, lower costs for local and central government and greater efficiencies and productivity across the whole economy.

                      Engage with the Greater Auckland site, you may learn something.

              • Kay …
                3 May 2024 at 6:11 pm

                "And having worked with low income and disabled communities in Aotearoa, I can tell you many of them either cannot afford to drive or are unable to, or barred from driving."

                Absolutely correct, I'm one of the medically banned, and with intermittant mobility problems. So why, when cycling isn't even an option for us, are we expected to just put up with a bloody great hunk of concrete/whatever literally cutting off access to taxis, delivery people, home support and visitors? (granted, the delivery people are great at illegal parking). More people cycling does not mean other forms of vehicles won't be needed anymore.

                The council knew all of this would happen, and it has. I believe it's also illegal under the Human Rights Act, to deny people access on the grounds of disability. certainly, keeping them trapped in their homes is. Although I'm sure there's a loophole somewhere in there.

                I'm sorry you've been on the receiving end of idiotic entitled drivers, I've had my share of near misses just being a pedestrian, so I'm well aware of them. I can even understand the safety need to separate bikes from traffic. But I do NOT understand why the very real social harm caused to people- who often don't even drive- is being so downplayed or disregarded.

                As per my earlier comment, it did not have to be this way. And incidentally, the cycleway that's causing me major grief runs exactly 3 blocks over from another perfectly good (and well used) cycle lane, going in the same direction. And it's so rarely used, so there wasn't even any reason to put it here in the first place, except pure ideology.

                • Shanreagh …
                  3 May 2024 at 11:23 pm

                  Well I know what you are going through. I submitted about how to get access for health care workers, tradies, bins, with cycle lanes. After emergency and complex bowel surgery I was helped by health care workers. They work to tight deadlines.

                  I don't think many of the Council members know of these things. They didn't seem to cotton on to people needing health care, elder care, meals on wheels at home or DIY couples/singles doing lots of renovating work themselves needing access to have a bin parked/tradies with vans.

                  It was as if these instances were from some other planet.

                  I do know of new immigrants who are doing a job each parent and need cars and access to parks to facilitate this. One of my helpers above was in this situation. When I speak of low income it is these I meant. Triers. Workers whose children will be our next professionals…..

                • Cinder …
                  3 May 2024 at 11:29 pm

                  Kia ora Kay.

                  Thanks for your kind words. I no longer cycle following the last nearly fatal event over 15 years ago.

                  As a dedicated pedestrian I understand your situation and how anyone not on 4 wheels is a second class citizen and anyone actually using their legs is viewed as pond scum.

                  One of the major reasons we have such poor design options for cycleways and alternate transport options is because of the prevalence and primacy of roading infrastructure and terrible housing and infrastructure decisions. They lock us into expensive and conflicted compromises that anger the car addicted and do little to improve alternate transport modes.

                  Our transport planners continue to prioritise "efficient" traffic flows over any other factor, including accessibility and safety for non-motorists which only exacerbates the problem. I believe none of the bastards have ever tried walking in the precincts they are working on (or anywhere else) and don't know anyone with disabilities. Those lethal yellow raised lego plates on footpaths supposedly for the visually impaired are a perfect example – treacherously slippery even before they become wet.

                  Many cycleways are poorly designed because of objections from the able bodied and car addicted who refuse to sacrifice a few seconds of their time. The selfish demand to use public space to store their rapidly depreciating, planet raping, pollution spewing, balance of trade ruining, private death machines stop us from providing the needed alternatives for cyclists and pedestrians.

                  One florist in particular has demanded a private delivery space at the expense of everyone else, an expense which could be the life of someone. Quite frankly, they can go fuck themselves.

                  Motorists have had their own way for decades now and the chickens are coming home to roost as the population increases and the number of vehicles reach crisis point. A matter not of the making of the cyclists, the pedestrians and other non-drivers, but we are the ones who get shit when we ask for a tiny improvement in our situation as we risk our lives on the daily.

                  "Consultation" doesn't mean you're all going to have it all your own way – Thats what motorists have had for decades. Those of us who have chosen not to use cars would now like something for us, even just a little bit

                  This older article from Greater Auckland sums up the attitude of most motorists towards cycleways, and the comments from a senior police officer are truly foul.

                  https://www.greaterauckland.org.nz/2022/06/29/the-real-barriers-to-road-safety/

                  I commiserate with your position, but please remember that the cyclists have not designed this infrastructure (see above) and a large number of cycleway installations are being done in conjunction with infrastructure upgrades below the surface. The Te Ara Tupua cycleway between Wellington & Petone is very costly because they are combining it with an upgrade to the seawall to protect the road and rail link and make improvements to the water network – thats the bulk of the cost.

                  We should also all unite to ban e-scooters from the country – They are a vile plague on our streets endangering everyone, especially the young and the elderly (Those two groups are the heaviest users of our footpaths). The companies pay little in terms of tax or licences in this country and they are an environmental disaster.

                  https://www.wired.com/story/e-scooter-rentals-carbon-emissions/

                  If people abandoned them in the middle of roads impeding cars, they would be banned overnight. But if you abandon them on the footpath impeding peoples right (right, not privilege) to walk in public spaces no-one gives a fuck.

                  Paris has banned them and are trying to tax wank-panzer 4WD's out of the city too, we should follow their lead.

                  Oh – And I find it incredible that the supposed socialists here are siding with a selfish florist who epitomises the "privatise the profits, socialise the costs" ethic because she is "nice" or once gave someone some stinky weeds. Stinky weeds probably imported at a large environmental cost after being harvested by exploited labour.

                  https://www.theforwardlab.com/the-true-impact-of-cut-flowers/

                  Shame on you, get your shit together.

                  • Molly …
                    9 May 2024 at 9:50 am

                    Greater Auckland is great for information on transport projects and explanations on what they consider priorities, but don't outsource all your thinking to their published points of view.

                    Paris was a city established by citizens who were mostly pedestrian, and vehicles which were horse drawn. The solutions they come up with do not apply to NZ where only central previous working class suburbs had the same density. Our central cityscape is also more fluid, as buildings here do not have the same lifespan as those in long-established European cities.

                    Town planning has for most of the last century been planned around private vehicles, resulting in sprawling cities with poor alternative transport to mostly centralised services.

                    Cycling lanes have costs as well as intended benefits. That needs to be acknowledged by those who promote them. Expensive recreational cycleways fall into a different category to commuter cycleways. Unfortunately, the financial cost benefit ratio for commuter cycleways often is not presented, lacks detail or does not actually justify the spending of limited transport funds.

              • Jan Carr …
                4 May 2024 at 10:49 pm

                There have been pedestrians killed by cyclists. The cyclists in Hamilton are shocking. Very few follow the road rules. They cycle across four lanes of traffic and motorists have to avoid them. Many cycle 3 and 4 abreast – this happened in Morrinsville where a cyclist was killed. The problem is the road there is windy and even travelling at 50 it would be impossible to stop and not hit a cyclist hidden around a bend when they're riding four abreast. I see maybe one cyclist a week using the cycleways. Most cycle on the pavement and yet the cost of putting in cycleways and roundabout for one or two cyclists is infuriating people.

                • weka …
                  5 May 2024 at 8:53 am

                  I think you will find that if you are on a windy road, or any situation where you cannot see in time to stop, the onus is on the person driving to slow down.

                  You can drive at any speed under or equal to the limit, provided:

                  • your speed is safe for the road conditions – slow down if the road is winding, bumpy, narrow, wet or icy

                  https://www.nzta.govt.nz/roadcode/general-road-code/about-limits/speed-limits/

                  I agree that cyclists have their own rider culture to deal with, and riding 4 abreast on a windy road is stupid. It is not however illegal. Driving a car so fast that you cannot stop in time when coming round a corner is.

                  • Shanreagh …
                    5 May 2024 at 10:30 am

                    I understood that riding four abreast on a road with poor visability and making it impossible for other road users to pass was an infringement.

                    Why else were Police stopping this practice on a steep windy road in Wellington after complaints at not being able to safely pass (along with 10 others ahead of me) for the whole length of the very steep hill. The second or third time this happened to me, it was a regular Saturday morning occurence, the Police were waiting for the four abreasters around a corner and pulled them over. There were 12 of them. The length of a truck & trailer to pass.

                    I think there is the same requirement on cyclists to ride to the conditions be considerate road users as there are on other road users.

                    While I don't doubt that these road users also had a car licence and so were aware of the road etiquette, what happens when people get on a bike who have never ever been on the road?

                    I sporadically follow (land on) a cycle twitter account from the UK and was amazed to see fellow cyclists berating other cyclists for not being aware of road etiquette generally. The 'beratees' had posted footage of alleged terrible behaviours from motorists only to be pulled up themselves for their own behaviour. Comments showed the influence of having been on the road as a motorist gave the experienced cyclists an edge on being able to themselves and others safe.

                    When I learned to drive I was told to regard cyclists as unpredictable in ther behaviour and to give them a wide berth.

                    As we cannot expect to have cycle lanes on every road, and there are, or seems to me, numbers who don't learn to drive then we will be faced with more inexperienced cyclists to contend with.

                    As a cyclist from way back we were taught at school to ride, my dad an experienced road cyclist for athletics training taught us as well.

                    Seeing some of the behaviours like running red lights, riding on the footpaths if the lights don't change immediately it would be great if beginning cyclists could be able to get updates on road saftey. I rode in roads to work for three years. By that stage I had had my licence for 3 years and was safety conscious and road aware.

                    And the oddest/saddest thing for me was that a cyclist knocked over my cat, fatally injuring him. (pinged him on the jaw apparently) They had space and time to stop but sped away and it was left to the motorist following behind to stop, move him, knock on a neighbour's door to try to find the owner. I found this really perplexing as the motorist said the cat was visible and he had already slowed down. I am aware of the concept that if one's life is in danger then an animal may have to be hurt on the roads, but this was not the case here.

                    Hence my ideas that having a road licence of some sort might help with 'wally-ish' behaviour from some cylists.

                    • weka …
                      5 May 2024 at 12:24 pm

                      I think there is the same requirement on cyclists to ride to the conditions be considerate road users as there are on other road users.

                      Yes there is. Doesn't matter if you are cycling or driving or towing or whatever. In this case, I was pointing out that a car driving a windy road has a responsibility to slow down so they don't drive into something around a bend, whether that be cyclists 4 abreast or a child or a sheep.

                      What you raise is a different issue. Cyclist riding four abreast have a responsibility to thin out if cars behind them cannot pass. Likewise, a car driving slowly has a responsibility to pull over to let traffic behind pass.

                      Afaik, there's nothing wrong with cyclists riding four abreast or in large groups. There is a problem if they stop cars from passing (or do other dangerous things).

                    • Cinder …
                      5 May 2024 at 1:22 pm

                      We get it, you hate cyclists and think the road belongs to cars only.

                      Are you sure it wasn't the motorist that killed your cat and wanted to blame someone else?

                      There is no such thing as road etiquette – god you're a fool. From the Land Transport Safety Act:

                      "A person may not drive a motor vehicle, or cause a motor vehicle to be driven, at a speed or in a manner which, having regard to all the circumstances, is or might be dangerous to the public or to a person."

                      https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1998/0110/latest/DLM434511.html

                      New Zealand motorists are amongst the worst and most aggressive in the world. You seem oblivious to this, along with all other transport matters.

                      When I use the bus to travel between my work and home I need to cross 3 roads using controlled crossings. Every, single, time cars run red lights- every time at every intersection. It's not cyclists causing this behaviour – its the shit driving and the volume of traffic. 2 seconds of their time is very important apparently. Much more important than anyone's life and wellbeing

                      I was nearly killed when a woman decided she would try and squeeze through the intersection (another abhorrent NZ driver habit) and was caught in the middle when the lights changed.

                      I had the cross signal and crossed while keeping an eye on the woman who had already broken a traffic law. She reversed at speed towards me to "clear the intersection" – other motorists were honking at her as they could see what was coming. If I hadn't been watching her she would have struck me and probably dragged me under her vehicle. I repeatedly smacked her car with my fist as she was that close – her response after winding down her window? "why did you hit my car?" – She did not appreciate me reply even though she very nearly struck me. This is typical of New Zealand motorists.

                      NZ motorists don't seem to know any of the following rules regarding vehicle / pedestrian interfaces:

                      Pedestrians have the right of way at driveways.

                      When pedestrians are using a controlled crossing, vehicles must remain behind the double line until the pedestrians have finished crossing the road. It doesn't matter if the green man has turned into a flashing red man, that signal is for pedestrians, not drivers. –

                      I have repeatedly had to explain these to aggressive drivers. Typically male boomers who think they own the road. And I don't drive – I have had lessons but never owned or rented a car but I know the rules that protect me from the worst drivers in the world.

                      Once when using a controlled crossing a man sped his car around the corner and came to within a foot of me. Couldn't be bothered to obey the rules. I gave him the finger as, lets face it, he came at me with a metric ton of metal at a fair speed. A few minutes later he parked up near me (he had rounded the block to come and have words with me – thats how fucked in the head and entitled he was) and asked why I'd given him the finger. I explained the rules to him and his response was that he'd never had an accident. My reply was that he was probably statistically overdue for one then I would rather not be involved in it – it didn't go down well.

                      I can anticipate your response – it's going to be about poor pedestrian behaviour and I acknowledge that it exists. But part of that is that our transport network is absolute shit for pedestrians – even places with adequate footpaths and crossings are typically marginalised by wankers parking on the footpath (get your keys out, they soon learn, or if its a business vehicle, take a photo and post to their social media network / ring them and ask if its acceptable behavior).

                      Too many cars? Not enough parks? Not my fucking problem – its yours and don't transfer it onto innocent parties simply trying to get from A to B. Those innocent parties are typically the young and old, don't make them walk on roads, because its dangerous and then the motorists will complain about that too.

                      Sidenote – For all those complaining about the pipes in Wellington, tell people to not park on footpaths – They are not engineered to hold a ton or more of metal and the pipes are under there, Once again – joined up thinking.

                      Another awesome outcome from car dependency

                      Its also about pedestrians not developing the necessary awarenesses and knowledge as they are typically driven around by mum & dad. Car dependency creating yet another poor outcome.

                      So before you start blaming cyclists – lets sort out the shit driving in New Zealand and reduce traffic volumes.

                    • Shanreagh …
                      5 May 2024 at 7:16 pm

                      Are you sure it wasn't the motorist that killed your cat and wanted to blame someone else?

                      Positive. The cat being clipped by a cyclist was confirmed by another who came to comfort me as well as the motorist who had stopped when he saw what had happened. He had already slowed down once seeing the cat on the road. The cyclist did not stop, did not slow. According to witnesses.

                      If the cat was able to be seen by the motorist who felt it was safe to slow down and did slow down why did the cyclist not see him? I’ve had cats for years and all but this cat have lived for years dying a natural death at the end of a long life.

                    • Cinder []
                      5 May 2024 at 10:09 pm

                      Maybe you can imagine how cyclists and their whanau feel then.

                      But it doesn't seem likely.

          • Bearded Git 2.1.1.5.3
            3 May 2024 at 1:16 pm

            Well said Anne. It was a set up by the florist.

            And why would the aggressor offer to film the encounter?

            JAG innocent here ..this is a MSM beat up….they can't handle the Greens being at 14 per cent while ACT are on 7.

            • James Simpson 2.1.1.5.3.1
              3 May 2024 at 1:18 pm

              It is her leader saying it was unacceptable BG. Do you disagree with Marama?

            • Anne 2.1.1.5.3.2
              3 May 2024 at 3:56 pm

              Genter unwittingly gave this puerile bunch of NAct/NZF losers an excuse to attack the Greens big time. Because let nobody be fooled. This is about the Greens not Julie Anne Genter. It could have been any one of their women them who had been the 'provider'.

              50 complaints laid. Someone from the NAct research unit must have been busy on the phone. Be interesting to know if they all said pretty much the same thing. Or they were offered 3 scripts and they could choose which one they liked best. You know, [insert name here] type of thing which they have been known to do in the past. 😉

              As for the florist. She will be revelling in her 15 mins of fame.

              And why would the aggressor offer to film the encounter?

              Precisely.

  3. D 3
    2 May 2024 at 10:12 pm

    Lol wat? Curious to see if the greens can white wash in the usual transparent way. Another bullying type allegation has come upas well.

  4. Ad 4
    2 May 2024 at 10:18 pm

    With Tangi Utikere barely visible, Genter is by a long way our most important opposition MP in transport.

    We need more like Genter who are matching the outrage of this government with outrage of their own.

  5. Traveller 5
    2 May 2024 at 11:13 pm
    1. To the comment made by Matt Doocey:

    In the course of the session, a number of MP's made interjections ('throw away comments') including Labour's Tangi Utikere.

    The comment Doocey made was not even directed at Julie Anne Genter, it was directed at Rachel Boyack.

    Both Doocey and Grant McCallum had made 'throw away comments' to Boyack, who handled them both the usual parliamentary swagger.

    Genter was the only one who reacted in the way she did, despite the back and forth of these kinds of debates. Doocey's comment was obvious hyperbole, and Genter's reaction was totally over the top.

    2. To the comment that Genter "…clearly felt immediately regret…".

    The Hansard shows that between Genter's action and Scott Simpsons point of order, Simeon Brown and Boyack both spoke.

    Following the point of order (which would have been an opportune time for Genter to apologise), there were several further contributions, until Barabara Kuriger recalled the Speaker.

    It was only after the Speaker returned that Genter apologised, saying "That is why, Mr Speaker, I'm apologising, that I was physically intimidating. That was not my intention and I will not do that in the future." Julie Anne Genter outburst: National urges Green Party to reciprocate their 'high moral grounds' when taking action against MP | Newshub

    3. Whatever the alleged 'provocation', it is clear that Genter's colleagues are not happy:

    Green MP Ricardo Menéndez March said Genter's behaviour was "unacceptable conduct". Julie Anne Genter outburst: National urges Green Party to reciprocate their 'high moral grounds' when taking action against MP | Newshub

    Swarbrick said they had spoken directly with National’s Nicola Willis and Doocey today, as well as other members of the National Party “and made it clear the behaviour was unacceptable and we make no excuses for it”. Fresh allegations of intimidation emerge against Green MP Julie Anne Genter, Wellington florist calls her a bully – NZ Herald

    “[Her actions] were not good and they were wrong.” The Greens had an internal MP code of conduct and Genter had breached that." Fresh allegations of intimidation emerge against Green MP Julie Anne Genter, Wellington florist calls her a bully – NZ Herald

    There is now another allegation against Genter, which is only going to make this worse for her and the Greens. So far the leadership are managing this well. They are certainly not running excuses.

  6. Cricklewood 6
    3 May 2024 at 6:25 am

    Without doubt she should be appearing before the privledges commitee, her behavior was completely unacceptable…

    Provacation isn't a defence of any sort.

    • Bearded Git 6.1
      3 May 2024 at 9:40 am

      It's spelt "behaviour" Crickle…..and if you read the FACTS that are coming out in the post and comments above you will realise that the MSM has slanted coverage of this matter massively against Genter.

      In particular the Political Panel discussion on Radio NZ this morning was terrible.

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018936813/political-panel

      • Cricklewood 6.1.1
        3 May 2024 at 9:54 am

        I watched the footage she was well out of order. As for the spelling you can fuck off dyslexia makes it challenging.

        • Bearded Git 6.1.1.1
          3 May 2024 at 10:34 am

          You could have said "sorry but I have dyslexia" and I would have apologised.

        • Anne 6.1.1.2
          3 May 2024 at 10:46 am

          There you go Cricklewood. Lost your cool with Bearded Git – just like JAG lost her cool with Doocey's disinformation. We all do it from time to time. Its called human nature!

          Edit: I see BG has responded. 🙂

        • David 6.1.1.3
          3 May 2024 at 11:39 am

          @Cricklewood, I hear you. As someone who’s on the Autism/dyslexia/ADHD spectrum, I’m over people correcting my spelling.

          • Obtrectator 6.1.1.3.1
            3 May 2024 at 12:10 pm

            Anyone indulging unnecessarily in that sort of sniping has already lost the argument, in my view. As a reformed corrector myself, I say don't bother doing it, unless it's one of those rare cases where a wrong interpretation could be made, and clarification is required.

          • Bearded Git 6.1.1.3.2
            5 May 2024 at 11:57 am

            With respect David I was irritated by the use of the American spelling of "behaviour".

            I didn't know Cricklewood was dyslexic because the sentence I was criticising was perfectly written other than for the Americanisation.

            A problem here is that the spell-check on the standard is set to American English not NZ English. Hence in the sentence I wrote above “criticising" and "Americanisation" come up as mis-spelt because I am using the NZ "s" instead of the American "z". (Which is zed not zeesmiley)

      • James Simpson 6.1.2
        3 May 2024 at 11:31 am

        There is no FACT that justifies an MP getting out of their seat and confronting another MP during a debate.

      • joe90 6.1.3
        3 May 2024 at 6:05 pm

        It's spelt "behaviour"

        Not if you're using American English.

        • Shanreagh 6.1.3.1
          3 May 2024 at 11:41 pm

          Why would we use American English? We're not in the US or one of its territories.

          • joe90 6.1.3.1.1
            4 May 2024 at 6:50 am

            I'm puzzled as to why a commenter cries dyslexia to explain their routine use of American English.

            • Kokako 6.1.3.1.1.1
              4 May 2024 at 9:36 am

              Bingo

            • weka 6.1.3.1.1.2
              4 May 2024 at 9:47 am

              Many children with dyslexia find it difficult to learn how letters and sounds correspond to each other and may not be able to recall the right letters to be able to spell the sounds in words. The complexity of the English language means that learners also have to remember irregular spelling patterns and sight words such as the, said, was.

              https://www.bdadyslexia.org.uk/advice/children/how-can-i-support-my-child/spelling

              I don't remember when it changed, but the spell check on TS used to use American spelling as correct. That changed maybe a couple of years ago?

              • Bearded Git …
                5 May 2024 at 12:00 pm

                It still says American spelling is correct.

                • weka …
                  5 May 2024 at 12:19 pm

                  weird, it shows behavior as wrong for me.

                  • Shanreagh …
                    5 May 2024 at 12:23 pm

                    Why would TS use American spelling? Seems odd seeing as we are in NZ. Most spell checkers give a choice between US or UK. I always choose the UK as being the one for NZ.

                    • weka …
                      5 May 2024 at 12:26 pm

                      Because one of the wordpress developers is an American? I assume wordpress uses US English as the default because that's where most of it's customers have been. When it was pointed out to Lynn, he fixed it.

  7. Mike the Lefty 7
    3 May 2024 at 6:32 am

    JAG lost her cool because of the arrogant smug National minister Doocey relishing in his refusal to actually look at the facts. She would sum up the feelings of all the opposition members in parliament.

    For some reason the general public seem to expect that Green members shows exemplary behaviour both in and out of the chamber. Brownlee can prevaricate with the eloquence of King James I, the government members can make racist and sexist remarks at will, but OH – that's not a problem because we EXPECT that – after all they can't help it, its in their DNA.

    But when a Greens MP stuffs up everyone comments how the peace-loving, environment-loving (as if they are 21st century hippies) are hypocritical when they get annoyed. They are not allowed to get annoyed or be real people it seems.

    The hatred that National has for the Greens goes back to election night when the Greens won two Wellington constituencies from Labour and National were relegated to third. National triumphed everywhere but Wellington, and they hold a grudge against the Greens for raining on their parade in the capital. National will find particular satisfaction for the thousands of Wellington public service jobs that are going.

    "Take that you lefty b…..s"

    • Bearded GitMike.... 7.1
      3 May 2024 at 9:43 am

      Mike….actually National lost in Christchurch, Dunedin and Wellington. It was the Akl/Hamilton/Tauranga axis-of-evil that won National the election, and then only just.

  8. Phillip ure 8
    3 May 2024 at 8:28 am

    Genter is the most qualified mp to be transport minister..

    She knows her subject..and the changes we need to make..

    ..and I would hope this does not end her political career…it would be a loss for us all..

    But I can also understand that a precedent within parliament of MPs leaving their seats to physically remonstrate against opponents cannot be allowed to stand..

    Take her to the privileges committee..tell her off..and then let it be..

    (I also wondered if the exit of shaw stirred up frustrated leadership ambitions genter may harbour..)

  9. Tiger Mountain 9
    3 May 2024 at 8:28 am

    Agree with Micky. This CoC Govt. work hard for local capital and international finance capital. SirKey was not in Parliament the other day because he did not have anything better to do. CoC want to diminish the state and hand over what remains to PPPs, road tolling, and for profit operators–even in health and education.

    So the opposition need to front up at all times to try and gain the narrative. Three Waters was a classic example where the right won the ideological fight–but the crumbling infrastructure and health hazards persist.

    Get the wet bus ticket out for Julie Anne and let’s get on with it. Jacinda Ardern called Atlas Dave an arrogant prick–the only mistake she made was apologising!

  10. Darien Fenton 10
    3 May 2024 at 8:44 am

    Unless you have been an MP in Parliament, it is hard to understand how frustrating, noisy and awful it can be to have MPs chipping in from the other side during a debate- with ignorant and stupid (and often personal) comments and when you are trying to make important points because of the work you have diligently done. I don't blame Julie Anne. I think this whole thing about it being intimidatory is pathetic. I hope the Greens stand by her. Meanwhile, we have our Foreign Minister now being sued by a former Australian MP, Leader, and Foreign Minister because he ran his mouth off. Again. And a PM too gutless to call him out.

    • Shanreagh 10.1
      3 May 2024 at 11:11 am

      Thank you Darien for your spot on post here. I worked there for two Ministers over 4 years and even they, with the privileges of not having to be in the chamber all the time, were absolutely wrung out by the level of interjection that was sometimes allowed by Speakers or Chairs of Committees.

      Genter is a competent person and very knowledgeable on Transport matters. She should go to the Privileges cttee if need be. As for those equating what she did with what Peters is alleged to have done, the mind boggles.

      • James Simpson 10.1.1
        3 May 2024 at 11:22 am

        Can you expand on what you think Winston did?

        He expressed a view that is widely held in Australia.

        https://www.afr.com/policy/what-you-should-know-about-bob-carr-and-china-20181105-h17jic

        • Shanreagh 10.1.1.1
          3 May 2024 at 12:21 pm

          So I am to follow what some Australians think of Carr? As Manuel would say Que?

          Peters is allegedly being sued.

          This is of far bigger import than a flap in our Parliament where a member lost their cool, apologised and now may be facing a Privileges Cttee hearing.

          Parliamentary watcher tragics will know that this parliament has been unusually bad tempered, badly run by the Speaker, prone to inane interruptions by Peters on inane points of order, the level of noise/interjection is much worse than in previous years.

          It is still not a patch on the hit to our country's reputation if Peters loses a court case.

          • James Simpson 10.1.1.1.1
            3 May 2024 at 12:37 pm

            What hit on the reputation of our country? Saying Carr is a big supporter of China?

            Carr may not like that, but how on earth does that damage New Zealand?

            • Shanreagh 10.1.1.1.1.1
              3 May 2024 at 1:58 pm

              Well if Carr wins a legal case against Peters it is obviously going to be of more importance to NZ's reputation internationally seeing as one is a Minister of Foreign Affairs where tact and diplomacy are key. But you knew that didn't you?

              • James Simpson …
                3 May 2024 at 2:10 pm

                If Carr was a part of the Australian government, then maybe. But he's not.

                Carr is often accused of being in bed with China. Its hardly outrageous that Winston has joined in.

                This from 2018

                Ben questioned if Mr Carr has become too close to China to remain independent.

                Ben: “Should you be declaring your links, even if they are indirect links, to the Communist Party when you’re speaking on matters relating to China in Australia?”

                Mr Carr: “Ben I regard that as a defamatory statement.”

                Ben: “How is it defamatory?”

                Mr Carr: “You’re accusing me of having loyalties to the Communist Party.”

                • Shanreagh …
                  3 May 2024 at 3:33 pm

                  Have you had a call yet for a legal team?

                  You know I care little about the substance but if Carr is able to get a case for defamation into the courts against a sitting cabinet minister of the Govt of NZ then we should be asking ourselves what gives? What will this mean?

                  We don't ask ourselves, or expect that what we believe as people about Carr, will have any influence. We have nothing to do with it.

                  What we can do is speculate on the impact that such a court case will or may have on the reputation of NZ.

                  Obviously it can have all sorts of impacts depending on who wins and how widely the case is publicised.

                • weka …
                  3 May 2024 at 8:28 pm

                  please supply a link for that quote.

          • Anne 10.1.1.1.2
            3 May 2024 at 7:11 pm

            yes

            Well said Shanreagh @ 10.1.1. I made a conscious choice not to watch any parliament for exactly the reasons you have given – bad atmosphere, rudeness, inflammatory and provocative behaviour, lies, deception and bullying tactics… and I am not talking about JAG. It was an inevitable consequence after the sort of election campaign that we had to endure last year.

            What a contrast to what we experienced when Jacinda Ardern became PM.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 10.2
      3 May 2024 at 2:13 pm

      This incident doesn't dent my respect for Genter, but it's not a good look – only hope Parliament doesn't make a mountain out of a molehill, and that Doocey and Genter get any assistance/support they need.

      “But I’ve made very clear my reservations about Aukus. A$368bn is the biggest transfer of wealth outside of Australia that has ever happened in our history.”
      – Carr
      https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/may/02/bob-carr-suing-winston-peters-defamation-nz-deputy-pm-chinese-puppet-remark

      And sure, the behaviour of our deputy PM is a bit embarrassing, but it's just Peters being provocative in search of a headline. Now is not the time for Lux to call him out – once those hairy polls stabilise, and our CoC govt shifts to the Lux/Seymour dream team one year hence, then our CEO will show us what actually taking charge looks like.

  11. weka 11
    3 May 2024 at 8:56 am

    Great post micky. Imagine if we lived in a both/and world. Genter made a mistake/aplogised AND we looked at the broader context of what happened that day. The Greens spoke to both the unacceptability of the behaviour, AND the unacceptability of a government MP telling lies in the house.

    • newsense 11.1
      3 May 2024 at 9:09 am

      Yes. First I heard of the context was here.

      Which makes you think that the leaderships of the main opposition parties suffer similar maladies, which is a desire to knock down a peg or damage their internal potential challengers ahead of having diverse, talented and publicly known and respected front benches.

      • weka 11.1.1
        3 May 2024 at 9:22 am

        not quite following you there. Do you mean Labour and the Greens are self sabotaging?

        • newsense 11.1.1.1
          4 May 2024 at 1:44 am

          I think it must be intimidating for new leaders to have experienced senior colleagues and I feel this isn’t the first time parties on the left have failed to adequately defend one of their own.

      • SPC 11.1.2
        3 May 2024 at 10:47 am

        It might appear that way, but it is simply leaders protecting the party reputation.

  12. Corokia 12
    3 May 2024 at 9:40 am

    We are running out time to have any chance of avoiding catastrophic climate change and we have a government full of idiots who totally ignore that fact. So yeah, Julie Anne got pissed off and lost her cool. Obviously she will be wishing she hadn’t “over-stepped” the mark, but FFS future generations lives are seriously threatened by global warming and she shouted and waved a document at some smug guy who is part of a government who clearly doesn’t give a shit.

  13. Bearded Git 13
    3 May 2024 at 10:32 am

    Fixed user name…test

  14. SPC 14
    3 May 2024 at 10:44 am

    "[It was a] serious, intimidatory, physical attack upon another member in this chamber and that's unacceptable," Simpson said.

    This is demonstrably untrue. There was no physical attack.

    It was unparliamentary behaviour, but to call it intimidatory is a stretch – maybe surprising or unexpected.

    As for serious, there have been incidents of brawls in other parliaments, threats of violence and scuffles in close proximity to the chamber by MP's in our own.

    • James Simpson 14.1
      3 May 2024 at 11:09 am

      As for serious, there have been incidents of brawls in other parliaments, threats of violence and scuffles in close proximity to the chamber by MP's in our own.

      Which is the very reason why this is unacceptable and should be treated as such by the whole of parliament (which every party in parliament has done). We don't want things escalating further. Imagine if Doocey had physically pushed JAG away when she was screaming in his face.

      Why is it so difficult for MPs to act if a professional manner? Both sides of the house spend their lives mocking, ridiculing and attempting to humiliate the other side. You see the smirks and laughs that go on the whole time.

      What other work places act in this way? None. We all have disagreements in the work place and hold different views on how to do things. But we don't behave like out of control school kids.

      • SPC 14.1.1
        3 May 2024 at 11:13 am

        As a workplace it is closer to team sport. They tend to get on better away from the "field".

      • Obtrectator 14.1.2
        3 May 2024 at 12:31 pm

        That's why we should dump the current configuration of the House, which only serves to provoke and support this sort of confrontational behaviour. There should be no more "sides", no more monolithic blocs of members all from the same party. And whoever "has the floor" speaks from a rostrum isolated from the rest of the chamber, instead of from among their rat-pack of adherents.

    • Obtrectator 14.2
      3 May 2024 at 12:18 pm

      I've looked at the footage. No actual physical contact, it's true, but she did get into his personal space, standing and leaning over at a distance less than the reach of her fully-extended arm. That's too close.

      • SPC 14.2.1
        3 May 2024 at 12:21 pm

        For a National MP not using PT maybe. But I doubt he has any experience of past violence from a woman.

    • weka 14.3
      3 May 2024 at 12:28 pm

      As for serious, there have been incidents of brawls in other parliaments, threats of violence and scuffles in close proximity to the chamber by MP's in our own.

      Can you please give more information on this?

  15. Mike the Lefty 15
    3 May 2024 at 10:47 am

    Regarding the latest allegation, not fact, against JAG that has very conveniently surfaced this morning.

    Would be interesting to find out what sort of insults this florist gave her before she got her own back but obviously Newstalk Hosking wouldn't be interested in fairness given another excuse to Green bash.

    very

    • Obtrectator 15.1
      3 May 2024 at 12:21 pm

      Maybe she should have had someone accompanying her on that visit, as a potential witness. (But going in team-handed can in itself be construed as intimidatory.)

      • Mike the Lefty 15.1.1
        3 May 2024 at 1:59 pm

        The florist allegedly got angry when JAG tried to record the "confrontation" on her cellphone.

        Now why would that make the florist angry?

        I'll tell you why.

        Because the florist had been insulting and abusing JAG after a heated discussion about cycle lanes outside the shop and didn’t want the abuse recorded.

        I'll bet that it was the florist who was confrontational and that JAG lost her cool only after being repeatedly abused.

        I don't blame her, you can only take so much s…. .

        There are always two sides to the story and I hope the other side comes out, and not just the anti-Green side.

  16. Jon Field 16
    3 May 2024 at 12:16 pm

    If JAG was intimidating why did Simion Brown have such a big grin on his face instead of rushing to Doocy's aid

    • weka 16.1
      3 May 2024 at 12:29 pm

      because he could see how this was going to play out for Genter and the Greens?

      • Jilly Bee 16.1.1
        3 May 2024 at 6:03 pm

        I saw the smirk on Simeon Brown's face – he couldn't appear to help himself.

    • Dennis Frank 16.2
      4 May 2024 at 3:45 am

      Biodiversity Jon. Theatre aside, the situation calls for a Green principle to point everyone toward a solution to the problem. In a sustainable economy, stakeholder psychology applies. In the conflict between cyclist ideology and the local economy, a competent Green politician would not become entrapped in the binary, right? They would instead lead with catering for all user groups involved

      Obviously the locals have supported this business a long time. Removing the carparks was an attempt by bureaucrats to discriminate against the business and the locals who kept it going. An authentic Green would oppose such discrimination. You know that, Jon, so why not say so? I recall your feisty stance in the Greens in the early '90s and would appreciate you doing that again here!

  17. bwaghorn 17
    3 May 2024 at 12:28 pm

    Beltway bs, only politically motivated people would give toss, if she'd grabbed the twerp and shook him there might be something to see.

  18. AB 18
    3 May 2024 at 12:47 pm

    I don't doubt that NACT have Genter categorised as someone belonging to the "reality-based community" who can therefore be provoked into angry, self-damaging over-reaction by their malicious deception and distortion. However, Genter should be aware of that, and needs to have a lower opinion of what makes this particular iteration of NACT actually tick, rather than imagine that they are in some way persuadable.

    • Belladonna 18.1
      3 May 2024 at 1:01 pm

      No one is 'persuadable' in the debating chamber. It's a piece of political theatre, which is played out for the benefit of the official record. Which, as an experienced MP, Genter knows as well as anyone.

      After all of the huff and puff of debate, MPs go on to vote strictly as instructed by their whips (or synonym of your choice) – on party lines.

      Change is made during the select committee process.

      • AB 18.1.1
        3 May 2024 at 1:34 pm

        She behaved as though shouting at them about the facts will make some difference to what they do. Whether that's because she imagined they were persuadable or just because she failed to understand that the chamber is a bear pit, is ultimately a guess.

        • Belladonna 18.1.1.1
          3 May 2024 at 1:40 pm

          Shouting at people is rarely effective as a tool for changing their minds.

  20. E. Burke 20
    3 May 2024 at 1:51 pm

    This is hilarious.

    Let play this game. What would the reaction have been if a male National member had behaved in this exact same way to JAG?

    Forget trying to rationalise it or contextualise it away.

    Just imagine what the reaction here would have been.

    • Mike the Lefty 20.1
      3 May 2024 at 2:13 pm

      Its very easy to dream up hypothetical situations.

    • weka 20.2
      3 May 2024 at 2:38 pm

      go on then, give us all a wee lecture about male violence against women.

    • Jimmy 20.3
      3 May 2024 at 3:02 pm

      Commenters here would have wanted him hung drawn and quartered in public.

      Also, the media would be all over it. Maiki Sherman would again be very excited.

      • newsense 20.3.1
        4 May 2024 at 1:55 am

        Ah got it. You’re a snowflake who complains about the media when you don’t like the news.

    • Ad 20.4
      3 May 2024 at 4:12 pm

      We don't need to wonder. Shaw got punched in the head just outside.

      At Foreshore and Seabed hikoi 2004 there were a good few Labour MPs who faced up to that roaring crowd, right to their face.

      The moment it got a bit far is when a few thousand occupied parliament grounds in 2022. So sure, have a few limits.

      Why you feckless wonders don't expect emotion to boil is a simple measure of your inability to register what is being done to the people of this country right now.

  21. Jimmy 21
    3 May 2024 at 3:54 pm

    There is no excuse for JAG behaving like a spoilt child no matter what comment may or may not have been said by others. They are supposedly adults and should be able to control themselves and set an example. Micky Savage writing an article to defend the actions is laughable when her actions have been condemned by people from all sides of politics including the Green party leaders.

    • Ad 21.1
      3 May 2024 at 4:07 pm

      Stop being such a wet poodle.

      Why are the right so weak when they're challenged?

      7,000 public servants down and counting, rapidly heading from 3 to 6% unemployed inside 12 months. Expect emotion at large scale.

      In the 1930s this government would have had its windows smashed. In fact the whole of Social Welfare headquarters was burnt down. In the 1950s it would have been challenged in large scale, to the point that the army got called in. In the 1990s any PM going to Waitangi would have been scorched right to their face. In the 2000s we had tractors driven up parliament. In 2017 about 10% of the entire population marched against the government. In 2019 the Howl of a Protest shut down whole cities for hours.

      Fucking grow up, and take what's coming. This lot deserve a whole lot more than a wee tant from a Green MP.

      • Jimmy 21.1.1
        3 May 2024 at 4:47 pm

        Oh dear looks like it's triggered you. Glad you cant storm over and wave papers in my face. And so quick to turn to violence? Seems like you are the reason we have so many problems in NZ. Genter was clearly out of line. You may still be a little raw and under a lot of stress from Elizabeth Kerekere, Gloriz Ghahraman and Darleen Tana.

        Robust debate is healthy, but resorting to intimidation, threats and abuse when you disagree with others opinion, not so much.

        • Ad 21.1.1.1
          3 May 2024 at 5:43 pm

          You don't even understand the word robust.

          Weaklings like you never achieve anything in politics.

        • newsense 21.1.1.2
          4 May 2024 at 1:53 am

          Jimmy reminds me of one of the dogs that are quiet while the house is getting robbed, but when all the dogs are barking safely behind fences he’s the loudest and the bravest.

          I mean the first decision the government took was a tobacco company policy that will kill 5,000 more people than the status quo.Imagine that Julie Anne Genter losing her cool with a bad faith fark like Doocey worrying you more than that. Imagine considering one shocking violence, but the other just business as usual.

          Someone’s the problem bud. Probably locate a mirror and start from there.

          • Jimmy 21.1.1.2.1
            6 May 2024 at 8:49 am

            Whereas you are more a "play the man not the ball" type of person when you have no logical argument or defence for JAG's actions.

      • Traveller 21.1.2
        3 May 2024 at 5:05 pm

        In May 2023, Treasury forecast unemployment to increase to 5.3% by the end of 2024, and predicted that "150,000 people could lose their jobs in the next year". Treasury forecasts 150,000 New Zealanders to lose jobs by end of next year | Newshub

        We've had levels of unemployment considerably higher than 6% for long periods in the past 40 years, (https://tradingeconomics.com/new-zealand/unemployment-rate) and we haven't had windows smashed or social welfare buildings being burnt down.

        • Ad 21.1.2.1
          3 May 2024 at 5:41 pm

          Treasury are as usual wrong in their forecasts. It will be 7% by end 2024.

          If you're not aware of windows being smashed you simply have no idea about political life at all.

          • Traveller 21.1.2.1.1
            3 May 2024 at 6:05 pm

            How many windows were smashed because of unemployment over the past 40 years?

        • Drowsy M. Kram 21.1.2.2
          4 May 2024 at 9:49 am

          We've had levels of unemployment considerably higher than 6% for long periods in the past 40 years, (https://tradingeconomics.com/new-zealand/unemployment-rate) and we haven't had windows smashed or social welfare buildings being burnt down.

          yes Otoh, grievance-based actions can evolve rapidly in social media-driven times.

          Geopolitical Risks: Why Underwriters Are Watching Aggregations
          [8 Feb 2024]
          To understand why SRCC (strikes, riots and civil commotion) events are becoming a more common and destructive occurrence, a review of the motivating factors behind them is required. Spotting these markers in advance can prove to be a useful bellwether as to whether unrest in a given territory is likely to occur.
          …
          Longstanding social pressures have played a central role behind local populations resorting to violent unrest in recent years. Inequality, poverty, unemployment, corruption, police brutality, state/government overreach and the high cost of living have either individually or collectively played a part in the uptick of SRCC incidents.

          Territories that recently experienced violent unrest have typically been a tinderbox filled with underlying social grievances that only required one decision or action to provide the necessary spark to ignite those collective underlying frustrations.

          Aside from the perceived benefits of keeping bottom feeders hungry, I have concerns that not all Kiwis, well-to-do and otherwise, will be able to fully insulate themselves from the direct and indirect negative effects of a higher unemployment rate – God forbid Nicola's kids have to backtrack to enduring DVDs and Tip Top.

          So let's hope Ad's forecast of 7% unemployment (would be the highest rate for 25 years – a generation if you like – with 1.4 million more Kiwis now) by the end of the year is wrong. After all, our CoC govt couldn't want that, although Willis has removed the RBNZ's remit for maximum sustainable employment.

          https://www.canterburywellbeing.org.nz/our-wellbeing/employment/

          Economic Stress and Occupational Health [Jan 2024]

          Parental unemployment and adolescents’ subjective wellbeing—the moderating role of educational policies [April 2024]

          Lifetime exposure to unemployment and prior working conditions are associated with retiree's health: A retrospective study in a large population-based French cohort [Jan 2024]

          • Traveller 21.1.2.2.1
            4 May 2024 at 10:39 am

            "Otoh, grievance-based actions can evolve rapidly in social media-driven times."

            Sure, but smashing windows and burning down buildings is a bit OTT don't you agree?

            "I have concerns that not all Kiwis, well-to-do and otherwise, will be able to fully insulate themselves from the direct and indirect negative effects of a higher unemployment rate"

            That's a concern we met head on numerous times over the past 40 years. We'll do it again, because inflation hurts the poor and working class much harder than the 'well-to-do'.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 21.1.2.2.1.1
              4 May 2024 at 3:38 pm

              Sure, but smashing windows and burning down buildings is a bit OTT don't you agree?

              OTT for me, now? Sure (I’ve a bit to lose), and the future beyond a decade (two at the most) isn’t a personal concern – "For the times they are a-changin'."

              Political Roundup: Discontent and gloom dominate NZ’s political mood [1 May 2024]
              Some have compared this economic situation to what John Key’s Government inherited in 2008 during the global financial crisis. But Hehir says: “What New Zealand faces today are much more protracted and persistent challenges. It is a different type of pain, more like torture than trauma.”

              That's a concern we met head on numerous times over the past 40 years. We'll do it again, because inflation hurts the poor and working class much harder than the 'well-to-do'.

              Getting back to unemployment, once our CoC govt has NZ back on a backward employment track, they’ll be well-placed to meet the consequences head on.

              On The Coalition’s Awful, Not Good, Very Bad Poll Results
              [1 May 2024]
              Finally….but National really knows how to run an economy, right? Not so much, actually. Nearly a decade ago, the rest of the world concluded that cutbacks to government spending and other forms of financial austerity were a road to nowhere. Today, the disastrous Tory government in the UK is the only other remaining true believer in the austerity gospel. This year, as our recession has deepened and unemployment is tipped to rise, Luxon, Willis and the rest of the Cabinet brains trust have decided that this is an ideal time to actively throw thousands more people out of work.

              John Quiggin – After Neoliberalism [15 May 2024]]
              The term neoliberalism refers to the political and economic ideology dominant from the 1970s to the Global Financial Crisis. In this talk John Quiggin will describe the central elements of neoliberalism: privatisation, financialisation, austerity and managerialism. He will explain the failure of each of these. And he will consider options for the future, focusing on the future of work.

              • Traveller …
                4 May 2024 at 3:43 pm

                I don't particularly have a view on the Nat v Lab issue re the economy. What I do know is that NZ faces some significant economic challenges, some of our own making, some not. One of those is inflation. Another is structural deficits. The current government has inherited both, and is showing considerable fortitude in dealing with them. There will be electoral consequences for that. So be it.

                • Drowsy M. Kram …
                  4 May 2024 at 7:00 pm

                  What I do know is that NZ faces some significant economic challenges, some of our own making, some not. One of those is inflation. Another is structural deficits.

                  What I know is NZ isn't alone in facing the challenges of unemployment, inflation and structural deficits. "Fortitude", or rectitude? Anyway, hope our old dog of a CoC govt's chosen solution – austerity* – does the trick, as it would be pointless trying to teach Willux any new ones. Time will tell.
                  * but not for landLords wink

                  Most macroeconomists now agree that the austerity programme pursued by the Coalition Government in its first two years was both too severe and unnecessary…

                  Children raised under UK austerity shorter than European peers, study finds [21 June 2023]
                  Average height of boys and girls aged five has slipped due to poor diet and NHS cuts, experts say

                  In Argentina, Javier Milei’s Shock Therapy Is Wreaking Havoc [10 April 2024]

                  Comments on the OECD Economic Outlook – May 2024
                  However, resorting to austerity to mobilize the trillions of public investments required to invest in the green economy and in geo-political security, including a rebuilding of more reliable supply chains, is a non-starter, as the challenges faced by OECD-economies are both urgent and huge. A new approach is necessary, in particular rethinking the traditional division of policy objectives between fiscal and monetary policy, allowing the latter to create the fiscal space to meet the absolutely necessary investments in the future of the economy.

                  • Traveller …
                    4 May 2024 at 8:08 pm

                    "What I know is NZ isn't alone in facing the challenges of unemployment, inflation and structural deficits. "

                    Sure, but let's take inflation. Tradable inflation has been dropping since mid 2022, but our non-tradable inflation is around 5.8%. This is a problem for your argument because this is domestic inflation, and has barely shifted from its peak in March 2023.

                    And while all that is happening, our productivity has gone into sharp decline. Geoff Simmons on X: "This graph is pretty striking: New Zealand's productivity performance is historically poor and now looks shocking h/t @dskilling https://t.co/eNZaPcQYF6" / X (twitter.com)

                    And while that's been happening:

                    For more than three decades, the Swiss Institute for Management and Development (IMD) has compiled annual rankings of competitiveness for 63 of the world’s most important countries. It makes for sobering reading for New Zealanders.

                    Back in 2017, New Zealand ranked #16 – ahead of Australia at #21.

                    Five years on, New Zealand has fallen to #31, while Australia is now ranked #19.

                    Over the past few years, we have plunged in economic performance, falling from 22nd to 47th place. Government efficiency has also deteriorated markedly from 7th to 17th place.

                    Altogether, the IMD’s ranking comprises 25 subcategories. In eight of them, New Zealand finds itself in the bottom half of all countries. And these are the categories that really matter: domestic economy, international trade and investment, inflation, productivity and efficiency, attitudes and values, and technological infrastructure.

                    The IMD noted New Zealand going in the wrong direction on subsidies, inflation, tourism, brain drain, public finances, skilled labour, competent senior managers, and central bank policy.

                    New Zealand’s economy a shadow of its former self | The New Zealand Initiative (nzinitiative.org.nz)

                    It's going to be a tough few years.

                    edit: forgot this one: “Yesterday’s shock 0.3 per cent decline in GDP in just the September quarter makes New Zealand the worst-performing economy in the developed world.”
                    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/christopher-luxon-looks-to-india-to-drag-new-zealand-out-of-its-long-decline-matthew-hooton/XFB56UFTJ5BX7AJ5LC76SWNJBM/ (paywalled).

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      5 May 2024 at 10:30 am

                      This is a problem for your argument…

                      That our CoC govt's austerity puts some Kiwis on a backward track?
                      I thought we were agreed on that. Cuts come with consequences.

                      Most macroeconomists now agree that the austerity programme pursued by the Coalition Government in its first two years was both too severe and unnecessary…

                      Austerity – For And Against [16 April 2024]
                      When you have three CEOs running the country it is almost impossible to create a joint economic plan. Instead, what you get is what we are seeing, arbitrary targets that are not only affecting people but also services. Right now, agencies are generally culling low-tier staff to save their management roles. And we are starting to see the culling of some larger, necessary, infrastructure projects.
                      …
                      Wholesale austerity measures without wrap-around planning and policy will be a failure, in my opinion. The government needs reformation, otherwise, this whole thing will simply swing in the other direction when the government changes again.

                      It's going to be a tough few years.

                      Yep, more Kiwis will be on a backward track if they stay in NZ, landLords being notable exceptions. Maybe increasing landLord profitability will (somehow) boost productivity, and lower inflation, but imho we are now led by entitled charlatans bent on feathering their own nests – government by the wealthy, for the wealthy.

                      Revealed: Landlord tax cuts will cost hundreds of millions more than ACT, National campaigned on
                      [11 March 2024]
                      Luxon said: "If you are thinking about the renters of New Zealand, which is where I hope you might be thinking, you would be uh, they would be very grateful for the fact that we are doing everything we can to increase the supply of rental properties across New Zealand."

                      Hoping the landlord tax break trickles down.

                      Can tax breaks halt our runaway rental market?
                      [17 April 2024]
                      What is undeniably true is that the rising costs for renters are not sustainable.
                      …
                      Are landlords taking a greater share of tenants’ income, or are tenants getting a better deal?

                      The evidence is pretty conclusive. The number of hours that a worker, earning an average wage, needs to work to afford the median rent each week has increased by four hours since 1994. Essentially, they are working 10% longer just to afford the same property. Over a year that adds up to 208 hours, or 26 days, longer at work for no additional gain but just to be able to afford the same property at the same median rent.

                      With the minimum wage increasing by less than inflation this year (2% versus forecast inflation of around 4%), it is likely to place even greater pressure on low-income households. A possible flow-on impact of this low minimum wage adjustment is an increase in cost to the government, via higher accommodation supplement payments.

                    • Traveller …
                      5 May 2024 at 11:04 am

                      @ Drowsy

                      So you're now not denying there's a problem, but you don't like the current remedy?

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      5 May 2024 at 12:00 pm

                      So you're now not denying there's a problem, but you don't like the current remedy?

                      @Traveller – What denial? We agree it’ll be ‘tough’ for many Kiwis.

                      And Kiwis see our CoC govt's landLord tax cut for the 'remedy' it is.

                      Government by the wealthy, for the wealthy.

                    • Traveller …
                      5 May 2024 at 1:07 pm

                      @Drowsy

                      You seem to have an unhealthy preoccupation with landlords. This is about restoring some semblance of sensibility to government spending, reducing interest rates and inflation. These are things that will return the NZ economy to its 'former self'.

                    • Traveller []
                      5 May 2024 at 4:14 pm

                      @Drowsy

                      We’re in a transition that should not have been necessary. But there it is. If you have other ideas for lowering inflation and interest rates, and reducing government expenditure and debt, then I all ears.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      5 May 2024 at 3:58 pm

                      Again, what denial?

                      You seem to have an unhealthy preoccupation with landlords.

                      Appreciate your concern. My health's OK – how about yours smiley

                      I've tried to avoid using landLords – didn't always manage it during my OE (1980s), but it's been plain-sailing ever since.

                      Our CoC govt 'leader' seems to have an unhealthy preoccupation with "negative, wet, whiny" attitudes. I'd keep that to myself if I owned seven properties mortgage-free, but everyone's different.

                      It’s an entitlement and I’m entitled to it [2 March 2024]
                      When I hear Christopher Luxon talk about what he feels he deserves, what he feels is his right – I can’t help thinking about what it feels like volunteering at a food bank.

                      And what it feels like using one.

                      These are things that will return the NZ economy to its 'former self'.

                      Getting landLord profitability back on track – sure. But I can't help wondering just how necessary our CoC govt's austerity measures actually are, or indeed what they will cost, and I'm not the only one.

                      Mainlining austerity [24 April 2024]
                      Austerity is a policy, an economic model with no guaranteed outcomes. I’m no expert, but I know it is a choice, and as Professor Stuckler has discovered, it does not have to be a killer. Austerity can be delivered in a way that does not drive despair. At the moment, it feels as though it has been cut with indifference.

                      https://reimaginingsocialwork.nz/2024/04/18/the-wrecking-ball-swings/

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      5 May 2024 at 5:48 pm

                      … then I all ears.

                      See your GP about that, then get a second opinion just to be sure wink

                • Traveller …
                  5 May 2024 at 4:20 pm

                  @Drowsy

                  the denial I referred to was your representation of NZ’s problems as somehow aligned to everyone else’s. We have our own economic problems that are of own making. High domestic inflation, high interest rates, plummeting productivity are just three of those.

                  • Traveller …
                    5 May 2024 at 6:57 pm

                    @ Drowsy

                    😀. I actually needed that giggle. Had a tough day. Enjoy your evening.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    5 May 2024 at 7:36 pm

                    the denial I referred to was your representation of NZ’s problems as somehow aligned to everyone else’s.

                    Can'r help observing that some of NZ's current problems – say high inflation/cost of living/interest rates – are common to many countries, and wondering about common causes.

                    It's the pandemic, stupid [29 Apr 2024]
                    For almost three years, inflation has been higher than before the pandemic. We have made considerable progress in it coming down, especially in the second half of last year. However, the first three months of this year were rough. The inflation story gets complicated quickly when we look under the hood. Nothing ever fully explains something complicated. This time is no different, but Covid and the economic disruptions it caused loom large in this inflation cycle.

                    World Economic Outlook, April 2024: Steady but Slow: Resilience amid Divergence
                    Global inflation is forecast to decline steadily, from 6.8 percent in 2023 to 5.9 percent in 2024 and 4.5 percent in 2025, with advanced economies returning to their inflation targets sooner than emerging market and developing economies.

                    Investigating inflation, living costs and mental health service utilization in post-COVID-19 England [2 May 2024]

                    Lessons in fighting inflation from the post-pandemic economic aftermath [1 May 2024]
                    Central banks, particularly those with a stated goal of price stability, must act decisively and swiftly in response to inflation to preserve their credibility.

                    Hopefully NZ inflation will continue down from its June 2022 peak.

                    This is not to excuse our own failures, past and present, but simply to observe that NZ is not alone in those failures. Others have opined that our CoC govt's 'remedy' (a mix of austerity and tax relief, notably to landLords) shares elements with that of the doomed UK Tory govt.

                    And NZ certainly isn't out of the woods yet – just consider the largest contributors to the inflation rate.

                    Annual inflation falls to 4%, lowest in years – Stats NZ [17 Apr 2024]
                    According to Stats NZ, rising prices for housing and household utilities were the largest contributors to the inflation rate.

                    "This was due to rising prices for rent, construction of new houses, and rates."

                    The price of rent increased 4.7% in the 12 months to the March 2024 quarter, while construction of new houses and rates increased 3.3% and 9.8%, respectively.

                    “Rent prices are increasing at the highest rate since the series was introduced in September 1999,” Growden said.

                    Families dig into KiwiSaver, cut back on food as living costs soar [30 Apr 2024]

                    Maybe it's a bit like global warming – every country (and most individuals) contribute/s (more or less) to the problem, and every country (and most individuals) take/s their lumps, but some lumps are bigger than others. Aotearoa, Canada (in particular) and a few others may get off relatively lightly, but it's still going to be awful.
                    Unless you're a Kiwi landLord – then those lumps are sugar lumps smiley

                    Landlord Government once again pushes renters into the cold [1 May 2024]
                    “Everything about this Government is back to the future. Over 15 years ago, in 2007, National members in Opposition argued for the Real Estate Agents Act to extend regulation to property managers. Then they got into Government and canned it. Last year, the Nats voted for the Bill at First Reading, but now they’re trying to stop it even before finishing full consideration by the Select Committee.

                    edit: “ Had a tough day. Enjoy your evening.” Sorry to hear that – you too.

  22. adam 22
    3 May 2024 at 4:13 pm

    Greens need to stop apologizing.

    Matt is a lying sack of shit.

    And it the being a lying sack of shit that created the problem.

    Matt is a snowflake.

    So screw Matt the snowflake and his lies.

    The corporate media should grow up and call out Matt for the lying sack of shit he is.

  23. Anne 23
    3 May 2024 at 4:43 pm

    "The corporate media should grow up and call out Matt for the lying sack of shit he is."

    They will never do it because that would spoil their chances of becoming ministerial press secretaries.

    • Shanreagh 23.1
      3 May 2024 at 11:45 pm

      Ha ha good one Anne – spot on.

      They will never do it because that would spoil their chances of becoming ministerial press secretaries.

    • Belladonna 23.2
      4 May 2024 at 2:04 pm

      Not at all. Plenty of potential work on the other side of the party benches. Or are you envisaging that National/NZF/ACT will be in power forever?

    • Obtrectator 24.1
      4 May 2024 at 12:28 pm

      So, to adopt a somewhat loose medical analogy:

      "adaptation" means "treat the disease" (preferably holistically);

      "mitigation" means "treat the symptoms".

  25. Ad 25
    3 May 2024 at 5:38 pm

    Also shoutout to Mickey for the heartfelt post.

    The fire still burns brother.

  26. Ffloyd 26
    3 May 2024 at 6:31 pm

    If Sookey is any sort of Minister of Transport he should be all over his portfolio. He is a misogynistic prick showing his infantile ignorance by blandly not even doing Julie Ann Genter the courtesy of a civil answer to her enquires. To say Labour cancelled all roading for six years, golly gosh in such a condescending manner when he would know full well that he was in fact LYING (see MS Graphs) smacks of sexism. He needs his portfolio taken off him for wilfully not telling the truth. SACK HIM. If he genuinely believes what he said then AGAIN I will say he needs to go. Good on zJAG for calling out the smug little tosser. Go Julie Ann! Maybe it’s time for a list of National bullying past. There is a long last there for them not getting punished for their misdemeanours aided by a complicit Speaker. Nice little shot there of Simone giggling like a toddler. Says it all.

    • Patricia Bremner 26.1
      4 May 2024 at 1:41 pm

      yes Spot on!! 100% and…. who here would like an opportunity to show our anger over bloody awful heartless policies? Goading and mocking is a go to for the Nats.

    • Belladonna 26.2
      4 May 2024 at 1:56 pm

      not even doing Julie Ann Genter the courtesy of a civil answer to her enquires.

      Come off it. She was hardly 'enquiring', but rather standing over him yelling and brandishing paperwork in his face. In Parliament. When another MP (neither Doocey, nor Genter) was asking a question.

      Have you even watched the video?

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/green-mp-julie-anne-genter-apologises-after-confrontation-with-minister-matt-doocey-could-face-further-action/XGFMZNU66ZBX5AHR42BINLFGFY/

      Regardless of what interjection Doocey made (and heckling is the name of the game for all parties) – Genter is absolutely in the wrong, here. As her own party leaders have acknowledged. Or are they wrong also?

      With your kind of support, it's more likely to be "Go Julie Ann" – right out of Parliament.

      • Kat 26.2.1
        4 May 2024 at 11:20 pm

        "Genter is absolutely in the wrong, here. As her own party leaders have acknowledged. Or are they wrong also?

        Depends on whether you regard the party including leaders as misguided amateurs….or not

        • Belladonna 26.2.1.1
          5 May 2024 at 12:16 pm

          I don't think that you'll find much support here for a characterization of Davidson and Swarbrick as "misguided amateurs"

          Which party, in your opinion, is sufficiently 'professional' to gain your approval?

    • Traveller 26.3
      5 May 2024 at 11:12 am

      Matt Doocey is not the Minister of Transport, he is the Associate Minister. His comment in the house was nothing more than the sort of throwaway that is dished out every day. In the Hansard of the lead up to Genter losing her cool there were a series of interjections, including from Labour MP's. It is part of the cut and thrust of Parliament.

      In the past few days a total of three more allegations of Genter's bullying behaviour have come to light (Business owner alleges she was ‘grabbed’ by Julie Anne Genter | The Post (stuff.co.nz)). If Genter can't shake her holier than thou arrogance and actually use persuasion to make her case, she's in the wrong job.

  27. SPC 27
    3 May 2024 at 10:57 pm

    Peters made a comment that Genter had not got the help she needed from her party. I'll guess it is about her transition from list to electorate MP. There is less experience in the party than others as to the role (SOP) of an electorate MP.

    • Shanreagh 27.1
      3 May 2024 at 11:55 pm

      That is perceptive. I mentioned above that the best electorate MPs don't go around with a political flag around their necks.

      You'd find the same good service from an electorate MP from one party will be mirrored by the successor MP from another party. Helping people in need, getting in touch with agencies to help, seeking second chances for people entangled in regulations or policy does not change from party to party or should not.

      But it is different from a list MP who might be a defacto presence in an electorate. They are not the ones with the regular clinics seeing a wide variety of people and hearing their problems.

    • Patricia Bremner 27.2
      4 May 2024 at 1:46 pm

      yes

  28. Dot B 28
    4 May 2024 at 8:37 am

    Well done Micky

    In my view Julie Ann Genter is easily the best Green MP

  29. Dolomedes III 29
    5 May 2024 at 11:26 am

    I think the scrapes that Green Party politicians have regularly been getting into lately reflect their sense of moral superiority, leading to entitled behaviour. I'm not sure Golriz is a good example of this, as she appears to have more serious issues. I'm thinking more of Marama Davidson, Ricardo March-Menendez, Darleen Tana, Tory Whanau, and now JAG.

    I’m not sure what underlies that sense of moral superiority – possibly an element of narcissism.

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