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International law and the Turkish shootdown of the RuAF Su-24

Written By: - Date published: 8:49 pm, November 27th, 2015 - 117 comments
Categories: colonialism, defence, International, iraq, military, Syria, uncategorized, war - Tags: , , , ,

A couple of days ago Turkish F-16s shot down a Russian Air Force Su-24 bomber. The plane was returning to base from a ground attack mission against Islamic militants in Northern Syria.

The pilot and the navigator of the Su-24 bailed out in time. Unfortunately the pilot was killed by anti-Assad Turkmen militants who shot him dead in the air while he was parachuting to the ground.

The navigator of the plane did escape successfully (although it seems that one of the search and rescue helicopters was destroyed by ‘moderate’ militants using a US supplied anti-tank TOW missile, resulting in the death of a Russian Marine).

In a subsequent media interview the surviving RuAF navigator said that he was very familiar with the area after many combat missions and that there was no way his Su-24 had strayed into Turkish air space. He also said that the Turkish F-16s had provided no warnings, visual or radio, before the shoot down.

(F-16 interceptors are far faster and more agile than an Su-24 bomber. Pulling parallel with and behind the Su-24 would have visually warned the Russian plane in circumstances where warnings over a specific radio frequency might not be monitored).

It appears that the Su-24 crew didn’t even know they were under attack until their plane exploded around them. They did not conduct any evasive maneuvers. My view is that the Turkish F-16s were lying in ambush looking for an opportunity to take down a Russian jet: Turkey is supportive of many of the anti-Assad and anti-Kurdish militant groups that Russia has been bombing. Further, Russia has been providing the US coalition with full advance details of where, when and at what altitude Russian planes will be operating at.

At a new ambassadors to Russia credential receiving ceremony, Putin said this about the incident:

“I can’t help saying that we believe the traitor-like stabs in the back from those who we saw as partners and allies in the anti-terrorist fight are completely unexplainable…It seems that the Turkish government is deliberately pushing the Russian-Turkish relations to a standstill, we regret it,” he said.

USAF Maj Gen Charles Dunlap (ret.) is a former USAF deputy Judge Advocate General and now with the Duke law faculty. He has written about this incident, saying that the Russians may have a “strong case” in international law:

While President Obama is certainly correct in saying that “Turkey, like every country, has a right to defend its territory and its airspace,” exactly how it may do so is more complicated than the president implies. In fact, the Russians may have strong legal arguments that any such right under international law was wrongly asserted in this instance.

The reasons for this include the following:

The problem here is that the Turks are not asserting that any armed attack took place or, for that matter, that any armed attack was even being contemplated by the Russians. Instead, in a letter to the U.N., the Turks only claimed that the Russians had “violated their national airspace…for 17 seconds.” They also say that the Russians were warned “10 times” (something the Russians dispute) and that the Turkish jets fired upon them in accordance with the Turks’ “rules of engagement.” Of course, national rules of engagement cannot trump the requirements of international law.

The question boils down to: was deadly force justified as the only recourse when there was no indication that the Russian jet was targetting any Turkish targets?

Another important international law issue arose after the Russian aircraft was struck by the Turkish missiles. The two aviators ejected, but were attacked as they parachuted from their stricken aircraft — reportedly by elements of the Free Syrian Army. In the effort to rescue the downed aviators, one Russian marine was killed.

It is extraordinarily well-settled that the law of war prohibits making anyone parachuting from a distressed aircraft the object of attack, and that doing so is a war crime. There is no real dispute among experts as to this reading of the law.

Regarding the Russian marine killed on the rescue operation, the law is more complex. Generally, a rescue effort is a military operation subject to lawful attack…(however) given that shooting at parachuting aviators is itself a war crime, the effort to rescue them from patently illegal conduct may very well transform the incident into one where international law could find the marine’s death an unlawful killing.

Dunlap concludes his piece by saying that the US is relying on the strict interpretation of international law in various areas of the world, including the Spratleys in the South China Sea. And in a chaotic area like Syria, even more care has to be taken to correctly apply international law.

EDIT

The Russians have concluded that both the Turkish F-16 and their Su-24 were inside Syrian air space when the attack occurred. The wingman of the Su-24 saw the Turkish missile launch and reported the event back to base. The Turkish F-16 then turned back towards Turkish airspace, rapidly dropped altitude to evade Russian radar and disappeared.  The Russians now see the Turkish attack as being an unfriendly pre-planned military operation. My view is that the Turks probably had one of their best ‘top gun’ pilots execute this mission.

In response, Russia will now be suspending visa free travel between the countries. Restrictions on Turkish agricultural imports had already been announced. Expect to see a broad range of diplomatic and economic measures being utilised by Moscow as push back against Ankara.

 

 

117 comments on “International law and the Turkish shootdown of the RuAF Su-24”

  1. Bill 1

    In 2012, the Syrians shot down a Turkish jet which had entered its airspace, and Erdogan’s furious response at the time was that “a short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack”.

  2. barry 2

    We don’t know who the Russian jet was attacking. All we know is that it would have been an opponent of the Syrian government, which could well have been a group allied to Turkey. This doesn’t make the shooting down, legal or moral, but we should endeavour to be accurate.

    The situation in Syria is very complicated and pretty much all parties are lying about their real motivations for being there. Daesh is just a convenient excuse for most.

    Certainly the Turks must have known what they were doing and we can only assume that they are trying to drive a wedge between Russia and Nato to avoid them co-operating or agreeing to leave Assad in place.

    Make up any other conspiracy theories you like and half of them are probably true. 🙂

    • Colonial Viper 2.1

      We don’t know who the Russian jet was attacking.

      The Russians give full information of their air missions to the Americans ahead of time to prevent exactly this kind of incident. During his press conference with Hollande, Putin said that the Americans may have been irresponsible with who/how they shared this information around.

      • The Americans might have thought the Turks would be a bit more rational than to shoot down a Russian plane; certainly at least rational to the point of querying its presence and establishing contact.

        Seventeen seconds suggests they shot first without second thought. Seventeen seconds is not very long at all.

        • Colonial Viper 2.1.1.1

          Hi Robert, I’ve edited the post above to say that the Russians have decided that this was an authorised, pre-planned operation by the Turkish Government against Russia. Crazy stuff.

      • nadis 2.1.2

        No point giving the info to the Americans. It needs to go to Nato or Turkey.

        The Americans would only care operationally about potential encounters with their own aircraft.

  3. Jenny Kirk 3

    Interesting comment on this from Gwynne Dyer in the Herald –
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11552345

    This is the first time in more than fifty years that a NATO plane has shot down a Russian plane, and it happened in very suspicious circumstances…….

    How strange that there was a Turkish TV crew in northern Syria, positioned just right to film the incident. …….

    Putin also observed that “We have long been recording the movement of a large amount of oil and petroleum products to Turkey from IS-occupied territories. This explains the significant funding the terrorists are receiving.”

    • Bill 3.1

      The Russians had informed NATO (through the US) of their intended flight path apparently. Sorry, outta here, or I’d find the link.

    • Pascals bookie 3.2

      The oil trade situation is complicated as hell (like everything else)

      For a taste, Hassan Hassan is really solid (literally co-wrote the book on the rise of ISIS in Syria) :
      http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/11/20/draining-isis-coffers/airstrikes-on-isis-oil-capacity-could-help-it-more-than-hurt-it

      The bombings, especially in eastern Syria, are disrupting the livelihoods of many of those who had relied on trade, transportation and oil-related economic activities before ISIS controlled their areas. After the collapse of the government in eastern Syria, hundreds of families relied on extracting and refining oil to run their heavy vehicles, to pump water to irrigate their distant lands, to generate electricity or to sell the refined oil in the black market to make meager profits to sustain their families

      It’s true that ISIS gains from smuggling oil, but it’s not like, say, funding terrorism via drugs. It’s more horozontal than vertical

      the local economy is still operating, but it’s kind of mafia based, and kind of not. ISIS in effect taxes trade and buys support not with bribes, but with granting freedom to smuggle etc. So bombing the smugglers is bombing the locals who are doing what they can to survive, destroy the black war time economy and what do they have left? Jihad, that’s what.

      when the US first started bombing, support for ISIS and AQ went up because the people got more desperate, the illegal oil trade was what was keeping them alive.

      Interestingly too, the border crossing the Russians bombed this morning is one that has also been a regular target for ISIS VBIEDs

      • greywarshark 3.2.1

        Thanks PB for giving this background to what the ordinary people are doing while those who have their hands on the levers and the money play their deadly games above, around and beneath them, while the people dart out of their refuges like mice.

        This sort of thing takes us back to our genesis millions of years ago when we started our metamorphosis. Robert Burns to the Mouse presents our predicament.
        From Burns Country:
        http://www.robertburns.org/works/75.shtml

        I’m truly sorry man’s dominion,
        Has broken nature’s social union,
        An’ justifies that ill opinion,
        Which makes thee startle
        At me, thy poor, earth-born companion,
        An’ fellow-mortal! ….

        But, Mousie, thou art no thy lane,
        (*But little Mouse, you are not alone)
        In proving foresight may be vain;
        The best-laid schemes o’ mice an ‘men
        Gang aft agley,
        An’ lea’e us nought but grief an’ pain,
        For promis’d joy!
        *Wikipedia
        edited

    • AmaKiwi 3.3

      If you have not done so, please read the article Jenny Kirk provides a link to (3.0 above and I show below).

      Dyer outlines the obvious strategic reasons for the attack: Turkey’s opposition to its own Kurds and Ergoden’s personal hatred for Assad. Dyer makes perfect sense.

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11552345

  4. RedLogix 4

    A good analysis CV.

    While it is impossible for us ordinary people to know the exact truth of what happened, I’m persuaded in this instance the Su-24 was ambushed. The ‘violation of air-space’ was nothing more than a flimsy, and probably illegal, pretext.

    • Colonial Viper 4.1

      The other dimension is that Russia and Turkey have massive economic and energy ties; the two countries have a significant amount of bilateral trade and tourism. Turkish PM Erdogan even visited Moscow a couple of months ago to attend the opening of a huge new mosque.

      This is part of the reason why Putin is so pissed off about this turn of events, describing Turkey’s attack as an ‘inexplicable stab in the back by a traitor.’

      Something big is going on in the background behind all of this.

      • RedLogix 4.1.1

        Yes I agree. Nothing on the surface of this makes sense … which is what I was hinting at above. We’ll never be told.

        • Richard Christie 4.1.1.1

          Something big is going on in the background behind all of this…
          Nothing on the surface of this makes sense

          It’s Middle Eastern politics. For more than a millenia it has been a case of it having more layers than an onion.

          USA, Europe or Russia, – or anybody arrogant, naive or stupid enough to interfere in it will get burned and will probably fail to understand why.

        • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1.2

          I’ve been looking at the focus on Turkmen in the MSM and by Turkey and think that Turkey wants to carve off a chunk of Syria when it collapses. I suspect that this has probably been agreed at the NATO table and Russia stepping in and supporting the Assad regime has thrown a spanner in the works.

  5. JonL 5

    If the Turks warned the Russians 10 times, the planes must have been well inside Syrian airspace at the time. To then get the go ahead from the President to shoot at them, when transiting the isthmus was 17 secs total, have a plane ready and firing an AIM locked on and targeted, they must have been locked on and waiting way before the SU got to the border. Premeditated ambush!.

    • Richard Christie 5.1

      Doesn’t neccessarily follow.
      The transcript suggests the warnings where made to warn of approaching territorial violation and to turn back.

      • Colonial Viper 5.1.1

        chances are the transcript is a fake. You dont warn planes which are 50km to 100km away from your border. At 1200km/h an Su-24 would travel 100km in that 5 minutes of warnings.

        • Richard Christie 5.1.1.1

          “chances are”

          Hmm, your tendency toward drawing conclusions based upon supposition, limited information and, I presume, no background in military aviation logistics, undermines your arguments, in my view.

          I think it foolish to conclude culpability from armchairs in NZ , either way, from partisan news reports, internet research and hunches.

          • Colonial Viper 5.1.1.1.1

            Hi RC, I gave you the rationale from which I drew my suppositions.

            If the Turks had warned the Russian jet on an aviation emergency channel everyone from the Iranians to the Israelis to every country’s naval vessels off the coast of Syria would have picked up the transmission.

            I think it foolish to conclude culpability from armchairs in NZ

            My comment you are critiquing was around the veracity of the transcript, nothing more.

        • alwyn 5.1.1.2

          Out of curiosity why do you propose a speed of 1200 km/h?
          That is very close to the planes maximum speed at low altitude isn’t it? It would seem unlikely that it was actually travelling at supersonic speed if on a bombing mission and also hard to believe that the pilots could have bailed out and survived at that velocity.
          What is a more likely speed and distance covered in five minutes?

          • Colonial Viper 5.1.1.2.1

            Out of curiosity why do you propose a speed of 1200 km/h?
            That is very close to the planes maximum speed at low altitude isn’t it?

            The Russians say the Su-24s were flying over 5,500m (18,000 feet) most of that time.

            This altitude was chosen as it is out of reach of common MANPAD shoulder launched ground to air systems.

            • alwyn 5.1.1.2.1.1

              Thank you.
              I never realised it had been that high.
              I haven’t been following anything about this except the likelihood of “he says, she says” debates.

            • Draco T Bastard 5.1.1.2.1.2

              The Russians say the Su-24s were flying over 5,500m (18,000 feet) most of that time.

              That’s got nothing to do with what speed they would have been operating at considering that they were patrolling:

              Ten minutes later, the bombers entered the range of Turkish radars and took positions in the target area, patrolling airspace at predetermined heights of 5,800 meters and 5,650 meters respectively.

              Their speed would have been at a comfortable, fuel conserving cruise.

              • Colonial Viper

                they were patrolling until they were given their attack orders. AFAIK the Su-24s had completed their attack orders and were on the way home when they were attacked.

    • nadis 5.2

      The approval from Erdogan was likely a blanket approval, along the lines “if you get a chance to shoot a Russian plane down when in our airspace, take it”.

      I don’t think there is any doubt the Russian plane was (briefly) in turkish airspace, but the Turkish response was disproportionate. The US has publicly told them they were out of line.

      It pays to remember that Turkey is not really a democracy. The elected government governs with the permission of the military.

      Also who is one of Turkeys closest allies? Israel. Both Turkey and Israel have their own complicated reasons for wanting to keep Syria in a mess.

    • AmaKiwi 5.3

      The Turkish plane violated Syrian airspace. By Erdogen’s logic, the Syrians have every right (but not the capability) to shoot down the Turkish fighter!

      The Assad regime has not given anyone EXCEPT the Russians permission to operate in their airspace. All the others (Yanks, British, French, etc.) are violating Syrian airspace.

      Typical US/Western exceptionalism: We can bomb your country because we are . . . God? the world’s policeman? the only force for good?

  6. Pascals bookie 6

    On the whole legalities issue, I think it’s pretty much irrelevant to be honest.

    the actors are acting in pursuit of their percieved interests.

    And given what all sides are doing in Syria and Turkey and Iraq in pursuit of those interests, quibbling over the legalities of this particular incident is kind of an obscenity in itself.

    • RedLogix 6.1

      Yes the legalities may never wind up in a War Crimes Court, but nonetheless they certainly wipe out any moral high-ground that the various parties might try to perch on.

      • Pascals bookie 6.1.1

        The victims of this warcrime are bombing hospitals in IS controlled cities.

        Their is no moral high ground here, that’s my point, so all this pinhead dancing about speeds of aircraft and 17 seconds and so on is obscene. The people who matter in this will be watching the news and asking “This is what you care about? A military target getting hit by another military outside of queensbury rules?”

        • RedLogix 6.1.1.1

          Are you arguing that the rules are no longer relevant … that it’s now ok to do anything you like in warfare?

          I know that sounds like a strawman, but if we are going to discount the murder of parachuting aircrew, then what other rules are we going to set aside? What threshold did you have in mind?

          • Pascals bookie 6.1.1.1.1

            Of course it’s a strawman Red.

            Firstly, war crimes are committed all the time in war. Shooting at parachutes is a crime, absolutely.

            But it is a very understandable one. Bomber pilots are generally well aware that if you have to bail out the first thing you should do is try and ensure that you are landing as far away from where you were dropping bombs on people as possible.

            Fighters on the ground without air cover are every bit as defenceless against ground attack aircraft as parachuting pilots are, so they tend to not care too much about the legalities of some ‘how do you like it’ payback.

            All of this argument about whether irregular troops shot at a parachiting pilot, while the Russians have been bombing cities to Dedend Assad who has been using committing all amnner of crimes is what I’m saying is obscene.

        • Colonial Viper 6.1.1.2

          “The victims of this warcrime are bombing hospitals in IS controlled cities.”

          Those stories were most likely anti-Russian propaganda. A director of the International Red Cross said that he could not confirm or deny any such occurrences as none of their staff had witnessed such an attack.

            • Colonial Viper 6.1.1.2.1.1

              This is from the Guardian article, your first link:

              Dr Mohamed Tennari, director of Sarmin hospital, said the facility appeared to have been directly targeted and could no longer serve patients on one of the fiercest frontlines in the war.

              He said the hospital had been the target of at least 10 other airstrikes earlier in the conflict. Throughout the war, international medical organisations have repeatedly claimed that medical facilities in opposition areas have been systematically targeted.

              Bold mine.

              The hospital says it has been hit by airstrikes many times over the years. Maybe the Russians were the ones which hit it this time. But they certainly weren’t the ones which hit it every other time.

              Physicians for Human Rights is a US based and funded NGO that I don’t have much faith in. In contrast, MSF did confirm hospitals were hit in airstrikes and they are certainly reliable, but they can’t tell who did them and did not attribute blame. In contrast, how Physicians for Human Rights can tell the difference between a Russian airstrike from a US coalition airstrike mystifies me.

                • Colonial Viper

                  have a look at the wording in your link:

                  http://physiciansforhumanrights.org/press/press-releases/physicians-for-human-rights-condemns-attack-on-clinic-in-afghanistan.html

                  re-read it and see how many times that press release condemns the conduct of the US military in causing civilian casualties or in attacking the hospital. (The number is: none times.)

                  than have a look at the wording in your link:

                  http://physiciansforhumanrights.org/press/press-releases/lawsuit-filed-against-cia-torture-psychologists.html

                  Tell me how many times it condemns the conduct of the CIA, as opposed to the conduct of the 2 doctors. (The number is: none times.)

                  Interesting, isn’t it, when you read what is actually there.

                  • Pascals bookie

                    What?

                    “re-read it and see how many times that press release condemns the conduct of the US military in causing civilian casualties or in attacking the hospital. (The number is: none times.)”

                    Physicians for Human Rights (PHR) today condemned an aerial attack on a Doctors without Borders (MSF) clinic in Kunduz, Afghanistan that reportedly killed at least 16 people, including nine MSF staff and seven patients.

                    “This is truly horrific and inexcusable,” said Susannah Sirkin, director of international policy and partnerships at PHR. “‘Collateral damage’ is not an acceptable excuse for what by all accounts seems to be a serious violation of international humanitarian law. Targeting a hospital is a war crime and warring parties are obligated to take every measure possible to avoid attacking health facilities.”

                    According to the aid organization, the MSF hospital that has treated hundreds of wounded during the current battle over control of the northern Afghan city was struck repeatedly in spite of the fact that the hospital had communicated its coordinates to coalition and Afghan government authorities. U.S. military officials have acknowledged bombing raids in the area at the time of the hospital bombings and indicated that it could have been “collateral” damage.

                    PHR calls for a full, independent investigation into this grotesque incident and calls on all warring parties in Afghanistan to respect humanitarian law, including the protection of hospitals, patients and health workers

                  • Pascals bookie

                    On the other story;

                    Physicians for Human Rights (PHR) today welcomed a federal lawsuit against psychologists James Mitchell and Bruce Jessen, the architects of the CIA’s post-9/11 torture program. PHR said the lawsuit, filed by the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), is a landmark step toward accountability, but urged the U.S. Department of Justice to criminally investigate and prosecute all those responsible for torture, including health professionals.

                    “Psychologists have an ethical responsibility to ‘do no harm,’ but Mitchell and Jessen’s actions rank among the worst medical crimes in U.S. history,” said Donna McKay, PHR’s executive director. “These two psychologists developed an experimental torture program based on brutality and junk science, and sold it to the CIA for $81 million. This lawsuit will hopefully provide greater transparency and some measure of relief to the victims, but the United States still has an obligation to investigate and prosecute these crimes.”

                    • nadis

                      Get with the thinking PB:

                      US = Evil
                      Russia = Good except when the US is forcing them to be bad
                      China = Good, except when the US is forcing them to be bad

                      US = responsible for every problem in the world today.

              • nadis

                Typical of you to slander Physicians for Human Rights simply because it is an American based organisation.

                Why not take sometime to read what work they do before casually slandering them?

                A quick look at their accounts shows 10% of revenue in their last financial year came from “Federal Grants”. Hardly bought and paid for. And they seem to have a pretty sold track record questioning the USG.

                https://s3.amazonaws.com/PHR_other/newsletters/fall-2015-newsletter.pdf

            • Colonial Viper 6.1.1.2.1.2

              One more thing…the Russians have never said that they were mainly or exclusively targetting ISIS (the western media made that strawman up)…the Ruskies are out to get anyone and everyone fighting against Assad’s military forces.

              • Pascals bookie

                And hospitals that treat them. Just for the record.

                And it’s funny how you leap to the cinclusion that if it wasn;t russians it must have been western airstrikes that hit the hospitals. Have you been following the war at all CV, other than reading RT and other Russian propaganda sites?

                What Syrians do you read?

                • Colonial Viper

                  And it’s funny how you leap to the cinclusion that if it wasn;t russians it must have been western airstrikes that hit the hospitals.

                  Intensive though ineffective western airstrikes have been hitting Syria for well over a year now.

                  I don’t read any Syrian bloggers.

                  • Pascals bookie

                    Define ‘intensive’ for a start.

                    But the point is that the capital’ of ISIS fell to non-ISIS opposition fairly early, it was bombed and shelled extensively by the ‘legitimate’ govt for a long, long time before ISIS took over. Whcih was years before the West started in the area.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      In January, four months into US airstrikes against ISIS: this was written:

                      “As of 11 p.m. on Tuesday (0400 GMT Wednesday), US and coalition air forces had conducted a total of 1,676 air strikes against Islamic State militants in Iraq and Syria since Aug. 8, and had used some 4,775 munitions, a Pentagon spokeswoman said.

                      Warren said US and coalition forces had hit 3,222 targets in the air strikes but he declined to say what percentage of Islamic State equipment was destroyed.”

                    • Colonial Viper

                      declassified US documents show that the Americans have been interested in using sectarian divisions to destabilise the Assad regime since the 2000’s. And US intelligence documents recognised a few years ago that a Salafist militant movement was the tool of choice by regional allies who wanted Assad gone.

                      The US is used to employing Islamic militants to take out countries they do not like.

                  • Pascals bookie

                    How about middle eastern news sources?

                    Read any of them?

                    I’m asking because the lines you are taking are almost purely Russian.

                    It’s really fucking odd how you apply certain adjectives to some things but not to others.

  7. McFlock 7

    Air combat is about “ambush”. Having the f16s give up a tactically superior position by flying “beside” the fencer is stupid and possibly suicidal. Shit, they were probably vectored into position by the operator of the radar that produced the track the turks released (if that track is genuine). Although the shooting a pilot in a parachute is definitely a crime.

    That having been said, whether the decision to fire was a policy decision or a tactical decision is another matter. Probably policy, using an airspace incursion as legal pretext. Similarly, it could just have been a response to continued airspace confrontations inthe area.

    The idea that it’s an attempt to keep a wedge between Russia and post-Bataclan NATO is an interesting one – there are lots of actors with lots of agendas going on, and that’s just assuming that all militaries are acting as agents of government policy without their own agendas or flaws. And the Syrian anti-Assad forces are wildcards – the S&R and parachute-shooting were probably escalations Erdogan hadn’t counted on.

    However, this looks to me like a calculated move, not a flashpoint accident.

    • Colonial Viper 7.1

      i tend to agree on the premeditation: a 10s to 30s airspace incursion (if it occurred -the US is now saying the Russian plane was shot down in Syria according to their thermal imaging) is not enough time to identify the intruder, get into firing position, and obtain approval to fire from the chain of command.

      So IMO the Turks must have planned and greenlit the op ahead of time.

      Also – an Su 24 is an air to ground bomber and would be no match for an F16 in an air to air encounter.

      • McFlock 7.1.1

        Well, waiting for the su24 to actually cross the border before even beginning to vector aircraft into the area in case they did would be pretty dim.

        And syrian SU24s have also had confrontations in the last couple of years – there’s always the possibility the turks thought it was syrian and not russian. Something to bear in mind.

      • Draco T Bastard 7.1.2

        Also – an Su 24 is an air to ground bomber and would be no match for an F16 in an air to air encounter.

        The Su-24 is an Attack Aircraft and is around about the same age as the f16. It seems to be quite a capable aircraft.

        Although it wouldn’t survive a dogfight with an f16 it would probably be able to defeat the missile that was launched at it through the use of counter measures and manoeuvring – if the crew had enough time to respond. By the looks of things they simply didn’t.

        It looks to me as if the Turkish aircraft got in close, used passive sensors to target and then fired without warning.

        • nadis 7.1.2.1

          Rather than say “attack aircraft” you should really say “ground attack aircraft”.

          The Su24 is not even close to the f16. Its akin to comparing a Ford Falcon XR6 turbo to a Mark 2 Ford Cortina.

          The closest US aircraft to an SU24 is the F111 which was taken out of service in the 1990’s.

          F16 and SU24 are designed for different missions – all weather air superiority versus low altitude ground attack. SU 24 doesnt even have an air to air combat radar. Massive difference in speed, maneuverability etc.

          The SU 24 was designed to operate in areas where they had air superiority already or in low level long range penetration (which it is no longer fit for purpose).. It’s survivability in denied airspace against a nato standard airforce is close to zero. Simulated one on one kill ratios versus f15,16 and f18 are round 80% and vs the F22 100%. This was a clear example of taking a blunt knife to a gunfight.

          We’ll never get to the truth of this given the propensity of all players to tell fibs, but it is interesting to note that on previous incursions by SU24’s into Turkish airspace they were escorted by way more capable SU30’s, but this time the SU24’s were alone.

          • Draco T Bastard 7.1.2.1.1

            Rather than say “attack aircraft” you should really say “ground attack aircraft”.

            Wiki:

            An attack aircraft (also called a strike aircraft or attack bomber) is a tactical military aircraft that has a primary role of carrying out airstrikes with greater precision than bombers, and is prepared to encounter strong low-level air defenses while pressing the attack.

            F16 and SU24 are designed for different missions – all weather air superiority versus low altitude ground attack.

            I’m aware of the difference which is why I differentiated between defeating the f16 and defeating the missile the f16 fired assuming that it was a Sidewinder with passive IR homing. That Wiki article indicates an ~25% success rate for the missile:

            The Sidewinder is the most widely used missile in the West, with more than 110,000 missiles produced for the U.S. and 27 other nations, of which perhaps one percent have been used in combat. It has been built under license by some other nations including Sweden. The AIM-9 is one of the oldest, least expensive, and most successful air-to-air missiles, with an estimated 270 aircraft kills in its history of use.

            • nadis 7.1.2.1.1.1

              I think you’ll find the Turks used an AMRAAM AIM120 radar guided missile. Much harder to defeat than an infra-red lock missile, and especially hard for a non-stealthy brick like the SU24.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-120_AMRAAM

              • nadis

                and just to be clear:

                AIM9 short range
                AIM120 long range

              • Draco T Bastard

                Turkish F-16 attacked Russian Su-24 without warning, both were above Syria – commander

                To attack the Russian bomber with a close-range air-to-air missile, the Turkish fighter jet had to enter Syrian airspace, where it remained for about 40 seconds. Having launched its missile from a distance of 5-7 kilometers, the F-16 immediately turned towards the Turkish border, simultaneously dropping its altitude sharply, thus disappearing from the range of Russian radars at the Khmeimim airbase.

                Using the AMRAAM at that range would be a waste and give warning as the Su-24’s sensors would have picked up the attack radar which is why I think it was the Sidewinder. The passive guidance doesn’t give warning of the lock and the short range wouldn’t have given the Russian aircrew enough time to react once the Su-24’s sensors picked up the missile launch – if they even did.

                • nadis

                  ” which is why I think it was the Sidewinder.”

                  Except it wasn’t. Read the press reports.

                  And if the Turks have AESA radar in the F-16 (they supposedly have a home developed system) then then primitive avionics in the SU24 would never know they were being painted.

  8. infused 8

    Jez. You believe everything you hear eh.

    So much of your story is either wrong, or not actually known.

    An F16 can’t just appear and shoot them down without the slightest bit of knowledge by the Russian pilots.

    My bet is the Russians were actually attacking along the Turkey border. The motives of Russia and Assad are clear, as well of that USA and Turkey.

    The US isn’t hitting ISIS 100% of the time, neither is Russia. They are both playing another game.

    I’m pretty sure you know this.

    • Colonial Viper 8.1

      yes, the Russians were hitting anti-Assad Islamic militants in Northern Syria near the Turkish border. These militants are Turkey supported. They have also been hitting oil trucks supplying Erdogan’s son’s oil trading company.

      “An F16 can’t just appear and shoot them down without the slightest bit of knowledge by the Russian pilots.”

      Why do you say that? Aim 9X sidewinders have passive IR tracking which is very hard to detect. And the Russian pilots were never expecting an air attack from the Turkish side of the border.

      • McFlock 8.1.1

        The tracker isn’t detected, the rocket motor is.

      • Exkiwiforces 8.1.2

        SU-24 Radar Warning Receiver should have picked up the F-16 radar in it’s search mode prior to lock on or when lock was achieve by the Turkish F-16’s. A high pitch tone would have screaming in the Aircrew helmets, the cockpit RWR panel Flashing like mad.
        1) Which makes me wonder his wingman (the other SU-24) was doing at the time and;
        2) Why was the Russians not maintain a listening watch on the Guard Frequency.

        Sounds like to me the Russians had very poor SA and very slack TTP’s.

        • McFlock 8.1.2.1

          Which is why I suspect the f16s were vectored in by ground control, RAF 1940-style. Similarly, use of an AMRAAM would have set off the RWR.

          The turks would have been watching the Russian/Syrian strike attacks for a while now, so it would be failry straightforward to place the f16s in the area with the correct direction to allow an IR lock while the strike aircraft are transiting the airspace bulge.

          That’s the only way I can reconcile the crewman saying there was absolutely no warning, and even then a missile launch warning system could have picked up the attack.

          • Pascals bookie 8.1.2.1.1

            Or the crewman is, y’know, lying.

            • McFlock 8.1.2.1.1.1

              lol always a possibility.

              But not necessarily a given – the idea of air combat is for the other guy to not see you before you kill them.

          • nadis 8.1.2.1.2

            errrrr……. the whole point of an AIM120 is passive radar homing. The radar comes from another plane and the AIM120 homes in on the reflected radar beam. It only goes “active” if it loses the target. If the SU24 didn’t know it was being targeted – and thats quite possible given the outdated avionics it would never know it was being targeted until the Mk1 eyeball saw the missile. I think the Turkish F16s have a Turkish produced AESA radar which would be undetectable by the SU24.

            Point is the Russians werent expecting this kind of threat and the Turks have the tech to beat up on SU24’s very easily.

            • Draco T Bastard 8.1.2.1.2.1

              If the SU24 didn’t know it was being targeted – and thats quite possible given the outdated avionics it would never know it was being targeted until the Mk1 eyeball saw the missile.

              Man, you’re full of shit. Upgrades:

              Surviving Su-24M models have gone through a life-extension and updating program, with GLONASS, upgraded cockpit with multi-function displays (MFDs), HUD, digital moving-map generator, Shchel helmet-mounted sights, and provision for the latest guided weapons, including R-73 (AA-11 ‘Archer’) air-to-air missiles.

              So, that would be the latest electronics available and not the original suit from 1974 as you seem to think.

              Point is the Russians werent expecting this kind of threat and the Turks have the tech to beat up on SU24’s very easily.

              But they haven’t got anything to go against the full modern air-force that Russia will now be shipping in.

              • nadis

                If it doesn’t carry AESA radar (and it doesn’t) it’s obsolete.

                But you’re right. The newer planes the Russians can bring are much better. But seriously, the SU24 is way past its use by date which is why Russia is already reducing their numbers in service.

        • Colonial Viper 8.1.2.2

          “SU-24 Radar Warning Receiver should have picked up the F-16 radar in it’s search mode prior to lock on or when lock was achieve by the Turkish F-16’s. ”

          What if the Turkish F-16 had its radar off. What if the F-16 was getting its targetting information from a distant AWACS or satellite platform via datalink. Thats the way to pull something like this off.

          Apparently the wingman did see the missile launch (according to the link in my edit in the post up above.”

          • Exkiwiforces 8.1.2.2.1

            “What if the Turkish F-16 had its radar off. What if the F-16 was getting its targetting information from a distant AWACS or satellite platform via datalink. Thats the way to pull something like this off.”

            This comment does not make any sense at all weather the Turkish F-16’s were in Visual Range (VR) and or Beyond Visual Range (BVR) as the Turkish Pilots would lose SA. In this age of Air to Air Combat no pilots worth their salt would turn their radar off because they will still SA and they still need the radar to use for Beyond Visual Range (BVR).

            • Colonial Viper 8.1.2.2.1.1

              OK, cheers for your contributions, Exkiwiforces.

            • Exkiwiforces 8.1.2.2.1.2

              Just further expand on my comment.

              The F-16 would have still have been receiving targeting info from AEW aircraft and from Ground Report control Units (Air Defence Radars Units) to give the F16 pilots a better overall SA.

            • Draco T Bastard 8.1.2.2.1.3

              In this age of Air to Air Combat no pilots worth their salt would turn their radar off because they will still SA and they still need the radar to use for Beyond Visual Range (BVR).

              Ah, no. A modern combat pilot has their radar turned off by default as it lights them up like a Xmas tree turning them in to a nice, big, bright target. Passive IR can pick up targets beyond human visual range.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_warning_receiver
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infra-red_search_and_track#Later_systems

              • Exkiwiforces

                They don’t turn off their radar!!! It’s either in standby/ passive mode or in active mode. NO Pilot will never turn off their radar in combat or in training!! As he or she will not be track any targets on the radar if the was turned off as they lose SA.

                Passive is used 90% of the time to avoid giving a radar signature.

                Active mode is only used when are closing in on target for the kill when you need to used Active radar/ Semi Active radar missile systems, or when you need to use your gun system.

                The same goes with most naval combat Ships radar systems as well.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  They don’t turn off their radar!!! It’s either in standby/ passive mode or in active mode.

                  Miscommunication. I was thinking off = passive. They wouldn’t have the radar transmitters on by default while they would have the passive receptors on.

        • Draco T Bastard 8.1.2.3

          SU-24 Radar Warning Receiver should have picked up the F-16 radar in it’s search mode prior to lock on or when lock was achieve by the Turkish F-16’s.

          That would be true if it had been used. But it sounds to me more likely that the Turkish planes were guided by ground stations onto the Russian planes and then they used passive system to obtain lock.

          Why was the Russians not maintain a listening watch on the Guard Frequency.

          I’d say that they were. They’re in a complex situation where accidents are going to happen and so they will be listening.

          IMO, in this situation the BS is coming from Turkey and NATO.

          • Exkiwiforces 8.1.2.3.1

            The Turkish Air Defence Radar would have been verbal warnings, but the Turkish Airborne Early Warning Aircraft would have vector the F-16’s into a attacking solution if the verbal warnings failed.

            • Draco T Bastard 8.1.2.3.1.1

              Ah, you’re accepting Turkey actually provided some verbal warnings.

              • Exkiwiforces

                Yes, Any nation that maintains some sort of Air Defence of it own Air Space will give and must verbal warnings via the Guard Frequency IAW with International rules and IATO.

                • McFlock

                  Hopefully better and more clearly than the Vincennes did…

                  • Exkiwiforces

                    Yes, that was nasty with a number of failures from the US Navy chain of command, a loss of SA and very poor SOP’s (now knowing as TTP’s).

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Just because the law says that they must do so doesn’t mean that they will do so.

          • McFlock 8.1.2.3.2

            That’s my personal theory. But AESA radar is a good point. Although that assumes that the Turks have it and that the russians have nothing in the theatre able to detect it.

  9. b waghorn 9

    I would suggest that calling in the lawyers at this stage is about as useful as turning up to a gun fight with a pen in you’re hand.

  10. Tracey 10

    I get confused. Are the worlds leaders applying international law today or not.

    I know it wasnt when USA bombed MSF a few weeks ago suggesting a war crime.

    • Colonial Viper 10.1

      That seems to be the current state of the world…arbitrary rule of law…

      • Tracey 10.1.1

        And the TPP nicely positioned for corporates to take advantage of that lack

        • alwyn 10.1.1.1

          Now I am really getting worried.
          Are you expecting the Auckland Chamber of Commerce offices to be hit with a Harpoon missile from a US warship?

          • Colonial Viper 10.1.1.1.1

            rule by economic and financial domination is superior to rule by military domination

            • ropata 10.1.1.1.1.1

              not forgetting the use of political puppets and propaganda media outlets

              • Lisbeth

                Well it might be nice to get MEDIA ATTENTION. I would like you to learn to control a large case yourself in the media limelight. Remember you have to be investigator, researcher, mediator, cop, lawyer, judge, and politician all yourself, you have to do ‘everything’ yourself. You have to do all these jobs yourself. Impressive.

                The makings of a fine Man.

                Anyone would think you were GOD.

                • ropata

                  All it takes is a basic knowledge of current affairs and a willingness to dig for the real story. No need for the PR crapola you’re apparently spinning

                  FYI:

                  NZ spends NZ$660 mln/yr on PR people and NZ$81 mln on journos. Optimal allocation of resources? Maybe for firms & govt. But NZ society?— Bernard Hickey (@bernardchickey) November 26, 2015

                  • Lisbeth

                    Yes you are probably right.

                    But to control a case as large as this, media attention might be a good thing – when one has to learn to handle a humongous task (case), and with the added pressure of the media on their back, it is not a bad thing to adapt to new surroundings (on a vast media scale). Governing ‘all’ areas, one gains expertise.

                    Media is most important, you have to present yourself in a way that is of most importance, not of grandeur but of skill. To do it in front of a large audience you will gain confidence. One must need confidence to be at ones best.

  11. vaughanm 11

    Lets be clear, Syria is an independent Sovereign Nation. Russia was invited by the Syrian Govt to help defend & support the Syrian Army in wiping out any terrorist threats. Moreover, Russia has a UN mandate under International Law to be in Syria with the expressed purpose of destroying terrorist entities. For Russia in terms of her interests, it was imperative to protect its borders from growing terrorist threats. Had Putin not intervened, the eventual capitulation of the Syrian Govt was inevitable – meaning Russia was obliged to address the terrorist threat to its doorstep sooner rather than later. Make no mistake, Russia has every right to be in Syria and is on the right side of history.

    So you can imagine how fucked off the United States, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Turkey, United Kingdom, Germany, France, NATO and other Western allies are, that their ‘terror and destabilisation process’ to topple President Assad has taken a massive hit in the short time Russia’s been conducting missions within Syria. . . The US is on the wrong side of history, hence the panic and switch to ‘Plan C’ recently.

    Lets be crystal clear, The United States Govt and its allies have been operating under the pretence of a global War On Terror. This humungous pile of horseshit a.k.a. US foreign policy is literally a global War Of Terror. Both the Bush and Obama administrations have pushed and expanded US hegemony with breathtaking disregard for International Law. Just like in Iraq in 2003 with the illegal invasion and toppling of Saddam Hussein; or just as repugnant and illegal ousting and murder of Muammar Gaddafi in Libya in 2011 – the aim of Obama is to bring the Assad Govt down by any means necessary. Why the fuck has Barry been awarded a Nobel Peace Prize? Since taking office as POTUS he has created seven wars! The US Govt actively & covertly supports/funds CIA created proxies such as Daesh to destabilise Assad, while using Special Forces and other entities within Syrian territory uninvited with no mandate – in breach of International Law!

    Turkey is actively supporting, funding & training anti-Assad rebels and maintaining open supply lines for Daesh a.k.a. ISIS along the Turkish/Syrian border. Which is a blatant contradiction that flies directly in the face of the West’s so-called War On Terror, because in terms of destroying terrorist entities NATO member Turkey is doing the complete opposite. The shoot-down of the Russian SU-24 was a calculated move by Turkey, an attempt to antagonise and bait Russia into showing its hand: get Russia deploying advanced high-tech weapon systems ~ revealing possible exploits to NATO analysts / weapons experts.

    What we’ve witnessed since 2003 with US foreign policy has unfolded like a train wreck – slow moving and utterly violent, but cold and calculated. Creating millions of homeless & displaced refugees, well over a million innocent civilians killed many more maimed. Housing, infrastructure & livelihoods destroyed, trillions in taxpayers money vanished in Pentagon black budgets, human rights, freedoms and privacy taken away. Terrorism increased substantially throughout the World. Hypocrisy, propaganda & lies by the West and its allies continue to grow & spread through a compliant media repeating Washington’s lines in unison over & over. A misadventure and attack on Muslim Brothers & Sisters everywhere / an ever increasing demand by Govts to increase surveillance and police powers everywhere. As a New Zealand Citizen I’m ashamed the National Government supports and participates in maintaining US hegemony. I’m angry that the National Government continues to assist war criminals such as Obama, Cameron, Netanyahu, Erdogan. I’m disgusted the National Government continues to protect other war criminals such as Blair, Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Powell, Rice, Howard et al.

    Shame on us.

    “We’re going to take out 7 countries in 5 years: Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan & Iran..”

    Ken O’Keefe discusses “who is ISIS” and the absurdity of what the mainstream media is telling us:

    US Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard: CIA Must Stop Illegal, Counterproductive War to Overthrow Assad:

    They Sow the Cyclone – We Reap the Blowback:
    http://original.antiwar.com/Dan_Sanchez/2015/11/23/they-sow-the-cyclone-we-reap-the-blowback/

    Global War on Terror Coincides with Dramatic Increase of Terrorism:
    http://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/11/26/global-war-terror-coincides-dramatic-increase-terrorism

    UN Backs Russia’s War on US-Backed Syria Terrorists:
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article43523.htm

  12. Exkiwiforces 12

    What get me is that the Russian aircrew weren’t maintaining a listening watch on the Guard Frequency which is design to prevent this kind of event from happing.
    Their Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) didn’t detect the Turkish F-16 radar in it’s seach mode or when the Turkish F-16 had a radar lock on prior to missile release.

    Given that Turkey is warned Syria and Russian it will not tolerate any violation of its airspace. With Turkey with maintain a Combat Air Patrol (CAP) inside it’s own airspace and the SU-24 was caught was inside Turkish airspace the Turk’s pounce on the SU-24’s and one other thing what the hell was his wingman (the other SU-24) doing at the time?? Sounds like very poor TTP’s on behalf of the Russian aircrew.

    Russian has habit in pass of calling ones buff but this they caught got out.

    I pulled this article form the Janes Defence website

    “Turkey shot down a Russian Su-24 ‘Fencer’ strike aircraft along its border with SyriaSyria on 24 November.
    A statement from the Turkish Chief of General Staff’s (TGS) office said an aircraft of unknown origin was shot down by two Turkish Lockheed Martin F-16F-16 fighter aircraft after it violated Turkish airspace, despite repeated warnings. To support its statement the TGS released a radar analysis of aircraft’s flightpath indicating the aircraft had violated the Turkish airspace before it was shot down.
    The Russian Ministry of Defence (MoD) confirmed that one of its Su-24 had been shot down but stated the aircraft had been flying in Syrian airspace at an altitude of around 19,685 ft and had been brought down by ground fire. Prior to the shootdown, RussiaRussia had 12 Su-24s at Hmeymim air base in Latakia province.
    Russian President Vladimir Putin said the downing of the Russian aircraft will have “significant consequences for Russian-Turkish relations” and a scheduled visit on 25 November to Ankara by the Russian foreign minister was swiftly cancelled. NATO called a meeting of allied ambassadors at TurkeyTurkey’s request.
    Speaking ahead of a meeting with King Abdullah II of JordanJordan in Sochi on 24 November, Putin said “the loss today is a stab in the back, carried out by the accomplices of terrorists. I can’t describe it in any other way. Neither our pilots nor our jet threatened the territory of TurkeyTurkey”.
    The Russian MoD statement said the fate of the pilots was still being determined and that according to the preliminary data the pilots ejected from the aircraft.
    Footage from TurkeyTurkey’s Dogan news agency showed what appeared to be Russian military helicopters searching for the pilots. A Turkish reporter said he saw two people landing by parachute, while Reuters reported having received a video sent by a Syrian rebel group, which claims to show a Russian pilot immobile on ground. Reuters said an official from group said the pilot was dead.
    The downing of the aircraft took place in a mountainous area in northern SyriaSyria near the Turkish-Syrian border in the Yayladag district of Hatay province, across the border from the Turkmen mountains in SyriaSyria where an intensive bombing campaign by Syrian and Russian warplanes has been under way. Turkmens have ethnic kinship with TurkeyTurkey. Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu on 20 November condemned a bombing attack targeting Turkmen villages in SyriaSyria, with the Turkish Foreign Ministry summoning the Russian ambassador over the incident.
    Meanwhile, footage released by the Syrian rebel group the First Coastal Division on 24 November appears to show a grounded Russian Mi-8AMTShMi-8AMTSh helicopter being destroyed by a USUS-made TOW missile. The rebel unit also released footage of the Su-24 crashing, and it is possible that the Mi-8 (which was earlier seen accompanied by an Mi-24) was searching for the crew of the downed ‘Fencer’.

    TurkeyTurkey amended its rules of engagement in 2012 after SyriaSyria brought down a Turkish F-4 Phantom IIF-4 Phantom II fighter aircraft. It said that any aircraft entering its airspace from SyriaSyria would be considered a threat. Since then TurkeyTurkey has downed a Syrian military jet, a helicopter and a surveillance drone that crossed into Turkish airspace.
    Since RussiaRussia’s air campaign in SyriaSyria began in late September, TurkeyTurkey has accused Moscow of violating its air space at least twice. RussiaRussia’s MoD has confirmed one brief incursion, but denied the second. NATO has previously denounced RussiaRussia for “irresponsible behaviour” in violating Turkish air space, while TurkeyTurkey warned that any future aerial intruder would be treated like an enemy.
    A senior former Turkish diplomat told IHS Janes that TurkeyTurkey should refrain from implementing rules of engagement that have potential to bring TurkeyTurkey and RussiaRussia into military confrontation. He believes that the Turkish government has been fuelling nationalistic feelings in the country to justify its ongoing fight against the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) at home and in neighbouring northern IraqIraq while also using Turkmens in SyriaSyria as a pretext to stir up domestic nationalism.

    Although RussiaRussia has denied its Su-24MSu-24M entered Turkish air space, radar tracking data released by TurkeyTurkey and validated by NATO indicate it did. RussiaRussia has released its own air tracking data showing that the Su-24 did not enter Turkish air space, but it has a history of falsifying radar information (as with the MH17 disaster) and has previously admitted to breaches of Turkish air space.
    The Turkish data show that the Su-24MSu-24M only entered its airspace for 17 seconds, while flying west and apparently taking a short cut through Turkish airspace above a narrow projection of Turkish territory into SyriaSyria. While it seems unlikely the Russian Su-24 could have been taken as a serious threat by Turkish air planners, the aircraft was riding its luck by breaching Turkish sovereignty in such an impudent manner.
    After repeated warnings from TurkeyTurkey that it would shoot down any further Russian aircraft breaching its airspace, RussiaRussia seems to have little cause for genuine anger over the incident – if, as it seems, the aircraft did indeed enter Turkish air space. This may stem any prospect of RussiaRussia escalating the situation militarily, beyond its initial muscle flexing with the new SAM and ship deployment, although RussiaRussia has warned that trade between the two nations is likely to suffer.”

    • Tracey 12.1

      Interesting…

    • Draco T Bastard 12.2

      but it has a history of falsifying radar information

      And NATO has a history of falsifying data to justify an invasion of a sovereign country that had done nothing to them.

  13. It is extraordinarily well-settled that the law of war prohibits making anyone parachuting from a distressed aircraft the object of attack, and that doing so is a war crime.

    There’s what the law says, and on the other hand there’s what people actually do when one of the blokes who was killing their mates a few moments ago suddenly turns up dangling from a parachute and presenting a lovely, tempting target. Let him who’s been in that situation and chosen “what the law says” cast the first stone.

  14. Is it possible that the Russian airforce were just incredibly arrogant and assumed the Turks would do nothing about them flirting with the border?

    And, just for perspective, here’s the passenger list for MH17:

    http://www.ibtimes.com/malaysia-airlines-mh17-passenger-manifest-released-full-list-passengers-1633424

    • Colonial Viper 14.1

      You’re right, the Russians never suspected that a friendly nation like Turkey would stab them in the back like this, using illegal lethal force.

      • ropata 14.1.1

        NRT: Journalism is not “espionage”
        Back in June, Turkish journalists revealed that the Turkish intelligence services were arming Islamist rebels in Syria. And now they’re being prosecuted for “espionage”:

        Two prominent Turkish journalists have been charged with espionage after alleging that Turkey’s secret services sent arms to Islamist rebels in Syria.

        Can Dundar, the editor-in-chief of Cumhuriyet daily, and Erdem Gul, the paper’s Ankara bureau chief, face life imprisonment if found guilty.

        […]

        The journalists, who deny the allegations against them, reported that trucks belonging to the Turkish intelligence agency MIT were used to carry weapons to Islamist opposition groups in Syria.

        Video footage published alongside their report purported to show Turkish police officers intercepting the trucks and discovering crates containing weapons and ammunition.

        So, telling voters what “their” government is doing is officially a crime in Turkey. I guess they’re not going to be joining the EU any time soon after all.

      • te reo putake 14.1.2

        Yep, and shooting down civilian airliners is super friendly. Funny old world, eh?

  15. reason 15

    I couldn’t find a passenger list to play your game of my tragedy is bigger/worse than yours ………… but this accounted for 290 innocent civilians/woman/children http://www.mohammadmossadegh.com/news/iran-air-flight-655/remembering-the-victims/

    and then there was the cuban airlines terrorist bombing …… http://www.democracynow.org/2011/4/11/cia_trained_airline_bomber_set_free

    Airplane bombings and deaths get a lot of attention …………. Up to 500,000 Iraqi children starved of food and medicine is part of the war on the middle east that our governments in the west have committed …….. “”We have heard that half a million children have died. I mean, that’s more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?” and Albright replied “we think the price is worth it.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions_against_Iraq#Estimates_of_deaths_due_to_sanctions

    “If you want to stop terrorism, stop participating in it.” Chomsky

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    BMG research have unleashed their final poll of the 2019 campaign:Westminster voting intention: CON: 41% (-)LAB: 32% (-)LDEM: 14% (-)GRN: 4% (-)BREX: 3% (-1)via @BMGResearch , 06 - 11 Dec Chgs. w/ 06 Dec That's a bit of a "Dunno why we bothered" sort of poll. "Phillip, I'm afraid I've been a ...
    2 days ago
  • Grant Robertson Spends Up Large – On The Establishment!
    Grant Keeps On Trucking: Out of the $12 billion Robertson has announced for infrastructure investment, $8 billion will be allocated to specific projects, with the balance of $4 billion held in reserve. What does it say about this Government's "transformational" ambitions that 85 percent of that $8 billion is to ...
    2 days ago
  • Boris Johnson … Hides … In a Fridge
    I am not making this up.First few lines of the Dail Mail write up:Boris Johnson's exasperated media minder swore on live TV today as the PM refused to speak to Good Morning Britain before trotting into a fridge as he started an early milkround in Yorkshire. Piers Morgan was visibly ...
    3 days ago
  • Shy Labour Voters?
    In previous elections pollsters have bemoaned the 'shy Tory' - the respondent who is so fearful of being judged as a cruel and heartless bastard by an anonymous pollster, or their spouses, workmates and friends, that they lie about their intention of voting Conservative, skewing the poll figures in Labour's ...
    3 days ago
  • Seven reasons to be wary of waste-to-energy proposals
    Climate Explained is a collaboration between The Conversation, Stuff and the New Zealand Science Media Centre to answer your questions about climate change. If you have a question you’d like an expert to answer, please send it to climate.change@stuff.co.nz I was in Switzerland recently and discovered that they haven’t ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    3 days ago
  • Reviewing the whitewash
    Back in 2015, then Ombudsman Beverley Wakem conducted a review of the OIA, Not a game of hide and seek. The "review" was a whitewash, which found no need for legislative change, and instead criticised the media and requesters - which destroyed Wakem's reputation, and undermined that of the Office ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • You Gov MRP Poll Out
    So, You Gov's MRP poll - the weird one that tries to reflect what will happen at a constituency level and which pretty much nailed the hung parliament in 2017 - is not looking too good for Labour:
    UK #GE2019 MRP seat projection:CON: 339 (-20)LAB: 231 (+20)SNP: 41 (-2)LDEM: 15 ...
    3 days ago
  • Climate Change: Accountability?
    We've known about climate change for over forty years now,and it has been a major political issue for twenty. And yet fossil fuel companies have kept polluting with impunity, while government have looked the other way and twiddled their thumbs and refused to do anything because "the economy", or just ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • Delusional And Irrational: The Rise Of Paranoid Politics In New Zealand.
    Sheer Loopiness: Many of those expressing bemusement at the antics of these #turnardern effacers, were convinced that they were yet another expression of the National Party’s increasingly spiteful anti-government propaganda campaign. They marvelled at the oddness of the perpetrators’ mindset and questioned the common-sense of allowing the rest of New Zealand ...
    3 days ago
  • Things to know about Whakaari/White Island
    Brad Scott, GNS Science VolcanologistThis post was originally published by GeoNet. Following the 9 December devastating eruption at Whakaari/White Island we have put together some information about the island. New Zealand’s most active volcano Whakaari/White Island is currently New Zealand’s most active volcano, it has been since an eruptive episode ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    4 days ago
  • Status quo supports status quo
    The Justice Committee has reported back on its Inquiry into the 2017 General Election and 2016 Local Elections, with a host of recommendations about how to improve our electoral systems. Some of their recommendations are already incorporate din the Electoral Amendment Bill currently before Parliament, but there's also a recommendation ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • The Greens abandon NeoLiberalism
    Back in 2017, in order to make themselves "electable" in the eyes of rich people who oppose everything they stand for, the Greens signed up for NeoLiberalism, adopting a restrictive set of "Budget Responsibility Rules" which basicly prevented them from using government to make things better. Now, they're finally abandoning ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • Lying about a failed war
    Since invading in 2001, the US has consistently claimed that their war in Afghanistan has been going well, even when it continued year after year after year. Of course, they were lying, and thanks to the Washington Post and the US Freedom of Information Act, we get to see just ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • Artificial Intelligence and You
    How should we think about artificial intelligence and the implications that it has for our work and leisure? There are many articles on artificial intelligence and its potential impacts on jobs, and the ethics of applications. These are important topics, but I want to focus on some less discussed aspects, ...
    SciBlogsBy Robert Hickson
    4 days ago
  • Statistical manipulation to get publishable results
    I love data. It’s amazing the sort of “discoveries” I can make given a data set and computer statistical package. It’s just so easy to search for relationships and test their statistical significance. Maybe relationships which ...
    4 days ago
  • More lies on the Twitter (Dan Hodges edition)
    The other big story concerning Leeds Hospital is Boris Johnson's bizzare behaviour at Leeds Hospital, where he was confronted by a journalist and challenged about a four year old boy with suspected pneumonia who was left sleeping on the floor, rather than getting  abed like a sick kid would in ...
    4 days ago
  • LabourActivistPunchedMattHancock’sSPADGate
    So, for a brief period of history, it was alleged that a protester had punched Matt Hancock's SPAD (not a euphemism; special adviser) when Hancock visited Leeds Hospital.This was reported by the likes of Robert Peston and Laura Keunssberg, as well as the less credible Guido Fawkes.  It also quickly ...
    4 days ago
  • France’s anti-Zionism is anti-liberté
    by Daphna Whitmore Last week France passed a law that equates anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. It is based on a definition of anti-Semitism that includes criticism of Israel such as: “Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    5 days ago
  • Another bus lockout
    Over the past year we've seen major bus problems in Hamilton and Wellington, as drivers have sought better wages and an end to the bullshit of split shifts, which basicly see them "married to the job". And now its Auckland's turn. When NZBus's drivers planned low-level strike action of not ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Climate Change: Showing us how its done
    The government has been congratulating itself over the passage of the Zero Carbon Act, which sets out long-term emissions targets. But those targets are insufficient. Meanwhile, Denmark is showing us how its done:Denmark’s parliament adopted a new climate law on Friday, committing to reach 70% below its 1990 emissions in ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • New Fisk
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Public sector dysfunction should not be allowed to undermine freedom of information
    Another day, another piece of legislation with a secrecy clause. This time its the innocuous-seeming Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission Bill, which (after establishing a new body and making it subject to the OIA in three different ways) includes the rapidly-becoming-standard clauses enabling it to request information from other public ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • “This is England, this knife of Sheffield steel…”
    The state of the United Kingdom is fractured, torn up, shredded. The Empire is gone, it died a long time ago. And yet, the country is still tracking with a lead in favour of the ones who play to the ingrained, class-bound division for political gain. It is a disgrace ...
    exhALANtBy exhalantblog
    7 days ago
  • CORSIA, coming soon to an airport near you
    On 27 September, Greta Thunberg addressed a crowd of 500,000 at the School Strike for Climate in Montreal, saying: “You are a nation that is allegedly a climate leader. And Sweden is also a nation that is allegedly a climate leader. And in both cases, it means absolutely nothing. Because ...
    SciBlogsBy Robert McLachlan
    7 days ago
  • Cloaking hate speech and fake news in the right to free expression.
    It should be obvious by now but let’s be clear: The same folk who regularly traffic in disinformation, misinformation and “fake news” are also those who most strongly claim that their freedom of expression rights are being violated when moves are made to curb hate speech (as opposed to protected ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    7 days ago
  • The Physics (and Economics, and Politics) of Wheelchairs on Planes
    Michael Schulson When Shane Burcaw flies on an airplane, he brings along a customized gel cushion, a car seat, and about 10 pieces of memory foam. The whole arsenal costs around $1,000, but for Burcaw it’s a necessity. The 27-year-old author and speaker — who, alongside his fiancée, Hannah ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    1 week ago
  • To Advance Civil Rights, Oppose Transgender Extremism
    We are very pleased to publish this submission is from Lucinda Stoan. She is a social justice activist, mother, and educator, based in Washington State in the  US.   This detailed and comprehensive source-linked overview of trans issues and what is at stake will be useful for many people, especially in ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Faafoi should be fired
    Newshub last night reported that Broadcasting Minister Kris Faafoi had apparently promised to help out a mate with an immigration issue. While its normal for people to approach MPs for assistance in this area, when you're a Minister, the rules are different: as the Cabinet Manual says, Ministers must "at ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Adrian Orr – The Reserve Bank’s Revolutionary Governor?
    New Zealand's Underarm Banker: It bears recalling that the “independence” of the Reserve Bank Governor was for decades held up by neoliberal capitalists as the most compelling justification for passing the Reserve Bank Act. Interesting, is it not, how the ruling class’s support for the Bank’s independence lasted no longer than ...
    1 week ago
  • Driving Us Up The Poll.
    Rubbish In, Rubbish Out: Put all this together, and it’s difficult to avoid the conclusion that anyone who responds positively to a pollster’s request to “answer a few questions” is just ever-so-slightly weird. Desperately lonely? Some sort of psephological train-spotter? Political party member primed to skew the poll for or against ...
    1 week ago
  • Jordan Williams, Colin Craig podcast series announced
    “Free at last, Free at last, Thank God almighty we are free at last.” ― Martin Luther King Jr. A long and bitter court feud between former Conservative Party leader Colin Craig and Jordan Williams has been settled, with an apology and compensation from Williams. On Tuesday, Craig sent out ...
    The PaepaeBy Peter Aranyi
    1 week ago
  • How plant-based meat is stretching New Zealand’s cultural and legal boundaries
    Samuel Becher, Victoria University of Wellington and Jessica C Lai, Victoria University of Wellington Earlier this year, the New Zealand-based pizza chain Hell Pizza offered a limited-edition “Burger Pizza”. Its customers weren’t told that the “meat” was plant-based. Some customers complained to the Commerce Commission, which enforces consumer law in ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    1 week ago
  • Scientific integrity requires critical investigation – not blind acceptance
    Some people seem to want to close down any critical discussion of the current research into the relationship between water fluoride and child IQ. They appear to argue that claims made by researchers should not be open to critical review and that the claims be accepted without proper consideration ...
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: The shameful reality
    The government has been congratulating itself over the passage of the Zero Carbon Act, which sets out long-term emissions targets. Meanwhile, Climate Action Tracker has the shameful reality: those targets are insufficient:While New Zealand is showing leadership by having passed the world’s second-ever Zero Carbon Act in November 2019, under ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • More secrecy
    The government introduced a Racing Industry Bill today. As an urban who horse racing as pointless-to-cruel, and gambling as a tax on stupidity and/or hope, this isn't normally a bill which would interest me in the slightest, beyond grumpiness at more government money for a dying industry. But there is ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Unlikely online bully, Liam Hehir
    Check. Check. One, two, three, four. Is this thing ON? Hello readers, I logged in last night (yeah, it’s been a while) to mark THE END of the landmark legal case, Jordan Williams v Colin Craig, which (gulp) reached The Supreme Court, in which New Zealand’s most-defamed man was suing the politician he ...
    The PaepaeBy Peter Aranyi
    1 week ago
  • The Birth Of Israel: Wrong At The Right Time.
    Before The Birth: Israel’s most fervent supporters set their clocks ticking in Biblical times. They cite the kingdoms of David and Solomon as proof that, in the words of the Exodus movie’s theme-song: “This land is mine.” The majority of Israel’s backers, however, start their clocks in 1933 – the year Adolf ...
    1 week ago
  • Hard News: Public Address Word of the Year 2019: Korero phase
    In an unreliable, strange and confusing world, Public Address is proud to present a measure of comfort and stability by annually asking everyone what words or phrases sum up the year that's been – and then giving some of them consumer goods as prizes for being clever or simply lucky.Well, ...
    1 week ago
  • Generalist to specialist
    Both my parents are pretty handy – and they seem to have the right tools for most jobs in the garage and they know how to fix practically anything. A similar story could be told about their generation’s experience in the workforce – being a generalist was not unusual and ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    1 week ago
  • A “coincidence”
    When it was revealed that NZ First had tried to enrich itself from public office via the Provoncial Growth Fund, the Prime Minister assured us that everything was OK as Shane Jones, the Minister responsible for the fund, had recused himself. Except it seems that that recusal came very late ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Member’s Day
    Today is a Member's Day, and probably the last one of the year. After the marathon of the End of Life Choice Act, most of the bills up for debate today are uncontentious. First up is the second reading of Chlöe Swarbrick's Election Access Fund Bill. This will be followed ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Worse than I thought
    The Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee has reported back on the government's odious and tyrannical control orders bill. As expected, the fraudulent select committee process has made no significant changes (partly because they couldn't agree, but mostly because it was a stitch-up from the start, with no intention of ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • The cannabis bill and the referendum
    Yesterday, the government released its draft Cannabis Legalisation and Control Bill, which will be put to a non-binding referendum at the next election. I'm not a drug policy expert, but Russell Brown is, and he thinks its pretty good. And pretty obviously, it will be a massive improvement on the ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Hard News: The Cannabis Legalisation and Control Bill: pretty good so far
    As you're probably aware, the draft bill outlining the proposed legal cannabis regime to be put to a referendum late next year was published yesterday, and has already attracted a flurry of comment. It's notable that a good deal of the comment is about proposals that aren't actually new.A minimum ...
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: Alignment
    One of the big problems in New Zealand climate change policy is the government working at cross-purposes with itself. It wants to reduce fossil fuel use, but encourages oil and gas exploration. It wants to reduce transport emissions, but then builds enormous new roads. The problem could be avoided if ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • How climate change will affect food production and security
    Climate Explained is a collaboration between The Conversation, Stuff and the New Zealand Science Media Centre to answer your questions about climate change. If you have a question you’d like an expert to answer, please send it to climate.change@stuff.co.nz According to the United Nations, food shortages are a threat ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    1 week ago
  • More bad faith
    Last year, the government announced it was ending offshore oil exploration by no longer issuing new permits. The idea was that the industry would then die off as permits expired. Except almost immediately the government revealed its bad faith, by saying they would extend permits and alter conditions to keep ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Banning foreign money from our elections
    The government has said it will ban foreign donations to political parties and candidates, and will be introducing legislation to be passed under all-stages urgency this afternoon. While I agree with the goal, I don't see a particular case for urgency, unless the government is concerned about a flood of ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Reforming the Education Acts
    The government introduced the Education and Training Bill to Parliament yesterday. Its a massive bill, which replaces both existing Education Acts, as well as various other bits of legislation (including some which are still proceeding through the House). I'll leave the serious analysis to teachers and people who actually know ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Bite-sized learning
    Amelia SharmanThere’s no one-size-fits-all when it comes to micro-credentials, those bits of bite-sized learning that can help workers stay on top of technological change.  What’s a micro-credential? While definitions vary, micro-credentials can be understood as short courses that allow people to learn new skills or have an existing competency recognised. ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    2 weeks ago
  • “Not The Labour Party We Once Knew.”
    All Smiles Now: Claire Szabo is taking up her presidential role after serving as the CEO of Habitat For Humanity. Which is absolutely perfect! After KiwiBuild was so comprehensively mismanaged by Phil Twyford, the party has not only elected a new president from a thoroughly respectable not-for-profit, but one who ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Marxist versus liberal methodology on transgender ideology/identity politics
    While much of the NZ left has transitioned to postmodern and identity politics in relation to transgender ideology, there are some very good articles about that deploy Marxist methodology in relation to this subject.  The one below is from the British marxist group Counterfire and appeared on their site here ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Book review: The Farm by Joanne Ramos
    by Daphna Whitmore At Golden Oaks, a luxurious country retreat in the Hudson Valley, pregnant women have the best care money can buy. From the organic food, personalised exercise programmes, private yoga instruction and daily massages Golden Oaks looks like a country lodge for the upper class. Set some time ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 weeks ago
  • Loosening the purse strings
    When Labour was running for election in 2017, it felt it needed to demonstrate "fiscal responsibility" and signed itself up to masochistic "budget responsibility rules". It was a fool's errand: the sorts of voters who demand fiscal responsibility are also the sorts of voters who believe that labour can never ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Climate Change: How to get there
    Writing in Stuff, Joel MacManus looks at what we need to do to meet the Zero Carbon Act's targets. The core of it:1. Convert 85 per cent of vehicles on the road to electric. 2. Eliminate fossil fuels from all industrial heating up to 300 degrees Celsius. 3. Double our ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • anti-vaxxers in a measles epidemic: so many ways to be untruthful
    “Anti-vaxers are a pro-death movement,” those comments from Dr Helen Petousis-Harris speaking about six more Measles related deaths in Samoa over the past twenty-four hours. “Anti-vaxers are a pro-death movement,” those comments from Dr Helen Petousis-Harris speaking about six more Measles related deaths in Samoa ...
    SciBlogsBy Alison Campbell
    2 weeks ago
  • Is Youth Vaping a Problem in New Zealand?
    Professors Janet Hoek and Richard Edwards, Emeritus Professor Phil Gendall, Jude Ball, Dr Judith McCool, Anaru Waa, Dr Becky Freeman Recent media reports have presented conflicting evidence on youth vaping in NZ. While some NZ school principals report concerns about increasing vaping on school grounds and confiscating vapes, ASH Year ...
    SciBlogsBy Public Health Expert
    2 weeks ago
  • In pursuit of “Freedom and Democracy”: Forever Wars in “America’s backyard”.
    “America the Beautiful!”, staunch defender of democracy, freedom and… a whole lot of despotic tyrants that play nice with what is called “the Washington Consensus.” America is indeed capable of immense good, but like any Nation, and most assuredly any aspirant to the mantle of Empire, great, immense evil. All ...
    exhALANtBy exhalantblog
    2 weeks ago
  • November ’19 – NZ blogs sitemeter ranking
    Image credit: The beginner’s guide to blogging I notice a few regulars no longer allow public access to the site counters. This may happen accidentally when the blog format is altered. If your blog is ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Whodunnit? Finding the mystery 1080 testing lab
    1080 is used to control pests in NZ. Its use is contested by a noisy few. A new report claims high levels of 1080 in rats washed up on a beach. Flora and Fauna of Aotearoa (F&F) won’t name the laboratory that did their testing. It has sparked a hunt ...
    SciBlogsBy Grant Jacobs
    2 weeks ago

  • New partnership to boost screen sector job opportunities
    Auckland’s growing screen sector is the catalyst for a new partnership between the Ministry of Social Development and Auckland’s economic development agency Auckland Tourism, Events and Economic Development (ATEED). The launch today at FilmFX in Henderson, is to celebrate the partnership which looks to capitalise on the social and economic development opportunities ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 hours ago
  • A minute’s silence for Whakaari White Island victims
    A minute’s silence will be observed at 2.11pm on Monday 16 December in honour of the victims of the Whakaari White Island eruption, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has confirmed. “Wherever you are in New Zealand, or around the world, this is a moment we can stand alongside those who have ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 hours ago
  • NZ to help fund fight against measles in the Pacific region
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced New Zealand will contribute NZ$1 million of funding towards the joint United Nations Fund for Children (UNICEF) and World Health Organisation (WHO) Pacific Regional Action Plan for Measles.   “Prevention through vaccination is the most effective way of avoiding illness and a costly health emergency. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 hours ago
  • New Zealand remembers Sir Peter Snell
    New Zealand is today remembering one of our true sporting heroes, triple Olympic gold medal winner Sir Peter Snell. “He was a legend, here and around the world,” Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said. “Our thoughts are with Sir Peter’s wife Miki and their family.” “Sir Peter is recognised as New ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 hours ago
  • PM congratulates Boris Johnson on election victory
    Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has congratulated United Kingdom Prime Minister Boris Johnson on his election victory.  “New Zealand and the United Kingdom are close friends and despite our distance we are strongly connected by our history and people,” Jacinda Ardern said.  “I look forward to continuing to work with Prime ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    22 hours ago
  • Building a platform for the future of rail
    The Government has released its long term vision for a sustainable 21st Century rail network that gets our cities moving, connects our regions and gets more freight off the roads.   Deputy Prime Minister and State Owned Enterprises Minister Winston Peters said the Government is committed to rebuilding New Zealand’s ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    22 hours ago
  • Prime Minister statement Whakaari White Island recovery operation
    I want to start by acknowledging the families who have experienced such grief and such loss since the extraordinary tragedy on Monday. Today was all about reuniting them with their loved ones. We've just come from the airport where many of them were gathered and in amongst what you can ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    23 hours ago
  • New Zealand medical specialists to provide further support to Samoa
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters today announced further support for Samoa’s longer term needs as it continues to respond to a devastating measles epidemic. “Samoa’s health system has experienced massive strain in the wake of the measles epidemic. The volume of patients needing care during this outbreak, and the number of ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Discounted electric-bikes offered to public sector workers
    Discounted electric bikes will be offered up to public sector staff across the country as part of the Government’s work to reduce transport emissions and support healthier transport options.  Associate Minister of Transport Julie Anne Genter officially launched the new initiative at Wellington Hospital today.  “The Government has negotiated bulk-purchase ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Australia and New Zealand confirm joint bid for FIFA Women’s World Cup
    The Australian and New Zealand Governments today launch an historic joint bid to bring the FIFA Women’s World Cup to the Southern Hemisphere for the first time. Australian Minister for Youth and Sport, Richard Colbeck and New Zealand Minister for Sport and Recreation Grant Robertson will announce the bold campaign, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Blackwater gold mine gets PGF boost
    The Provincial Growth Fund (PGF) has approved a $15 million loan to help re-establish a gold mining operation at Blackwater Gold Mine, near Reefton, Rural Communities Minister and local MP Damien O’Connor announced at an event on the West Coast today. “This is great news for the Coast that could ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Papakāinga model inspires whānau well-being
    Papakāinga model inspires whānau well-being A housing project by Kohupātiki whānau in Hastings is an outstanding example of a Māori-led housing initiative that can reduce financial pressure and reconnect whānau to their whakapapa says the Minister for Māori Development Hon Nanaia Mahuta.  Minister Mahuta officially opened the Aroha Te Rangi ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Government provides more funding for major community wetland restoration project
    Restoration efforts for a significant wetland in the Hawke’s Bay are getting more support announced Associate Minister for the Environment Eugenie Sage. “Wetlands are vital to healthy landscapes and ecosystems. They function as nature’s ‘kidneys’, filtering and protecting water quality, acting as nature’s sponges after rain and are home to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Housing First to help Nelson Tasman homeless
    Nelson has today seen the launch of Housing First Nelson Tasman. Today’s launch marks the expansion of the Government’s homelessness programme, Housing First, to the top of the South Island. “Housing First is a proven programme that puts people who are experiencing homelessness and multiple, high and complex needs into ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • New funding to support Environment Centres working for sustainable local solutions
    New Government funding announced today will help communities make a difference in tackling environmental issues Associate Minister for the Environment Eugenie Sage announced in Hawkes Bay today. The Ministry for the Environment’s Community Environment Fund is dedicating $243,101 to growing the capacity and capability of the Environment Hubs Aotearoa’s (EHA) ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Government takes bite out of loan sharks
    The days of vulnerable consumers falling victim to loan sharks, truck shops and other predatory lenders are numbered, following the Credit Contracts Legislation Amendment Bill passing its third reading tonight. “Too many Kiwis are being given loans that are unaffordable and unsuitable, trapping them in debt and leaving their families ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • New Zealand safer as Terrorism Suppression (Control Orders Bill) becomes law
    A Bill that prevents terrorism and supports the de-radicalisation of New Zealanders returning from overseas has passed its third reading, Justice Minister Andrew Little says. The Terrorism Suppression (Control Orders) Bill is a carefully targeted response to manage the risk posed by a small number of New Zealanders who have ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Foreign Minister and Pacific Peoples Minister to visit Samoa
    Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters and Minister for Pacific Peoples Aupito William Sio will travel to Samoa on Friday, where New Zealand medical teams are helping Samoa respond to an outbreak of measles. “New Zealand has been working closely with the Government of Samoa and offering our assistance from the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • New Pastoral Care Code will support tertiary students in 2020
    The Government has changed the law to improve student safety and welfare in university halls of residence and other student accommodation. The Education (Pastoral Care) Amendment Bill passed its third reading this afternoon and details of an interim Code of Practice setting out the Government’s expectations of tertiary providers have also been released. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • New infrastructure funding tool to build housing developments faster
    A new tool to help councils fund and finance infrastructure could mean some housing developments happen a decade earlier than currently planned, Urban Development Minister Phil Twyford said today. “This new tool, developed by the Government in partnership with industry and high-growth councils, will allow councils to access private debt ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Vision to unite the primary sector launched today
    Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor has welcomed the release of a bold new vision for the country’s vital food and fibre sector. “I’m delighted that New Zealand’s major farmer and grower organisations are today supporting the Primary Sector Council’s vision – Fit for a Better World,” he said. “The international consumers ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • NZ congratulates PNG and Autonomous Bougainville Government on referendum
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters has congratulated the Government of Papua New Guinea and the Autonomous Bougainville Government for completing a well-conducted referendum on the future political status of Bougainville. “New Zealand supported the referendum process by providing technical advice through the New Zealand Electoral Commission and leading a Regional Police ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Next steps for Upper North Island logistics
    In light of Cabinet’s position that freight operations on prime land in downtown Auckland are no longer viable, the Government will now embark on a short work programme to enable decision-making in the first half of next year, Associate Transport Minister Shane Jones says. Minister Jones is today releasing the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
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  • Surgical mesh restorative justice report received
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