Is the $15,000 even true?

Written By: - Date published: 1:28 pm, June 20th, 2014 - 214 comments
Categories: labour, same old national - Tags: , ,

John Key’s alleging that hundreds of thousands flowed to Labour from Donghua Liu, but as the Nat’s smear campaign unravels, even the $15,000 can’t be found.

Who do we trust – an unnamed ‘party source’ in the Herald (of unknown reliability or motive), or Party records?  $15,000 is a sizeable donation for Labour, that is likely to be noted or remembered.

And Labour can’t find any trace.  Maybe he managed to disguise it enough that nobody knew he gave it (just a fabulous gift to democracy) – could the Herald or National prove Liu never gave $15,000 to them (or their employees / members) in 2007?  It’s a fabulous game, because it’s virtually impossible to prove it never happened.

And it’s an even better game, because there’s nothing wrong with a donation even if he did make it.  That’s how our political party democracy works.  So National managed to get the media going “a-ha! he gave money to you 7 years ago!” and “a-ha! you wrote a letter asking when his application was going to be processed 11 years ago!”… when there’s nothing wrong with either of those things.  (And your partner spending $100 or $200 on a bottle of wine at a local Labour wine auction is hardly the way to buy influence…)

There’s no equivalence with the money Liu gave to National resulting in the special treatment Williamson and Woodhouse then gave him.

And then Woodhouse pops up again yesterday… having got the letter on May 9 and briefed Key on it – leading to Key’s stupid gloating that blew this whole smear open.  Woodhouse was then had a brainfade of Key-like proportions1 when he denied all knowledge of something from last month, only to have to back-track, when he realised he’d be caught out.

But there’s a missing link here: where’s Donghua himself in all this?  Surely he could clear this up very quickly.  If the donation exists, he could say how he hid it beyond Labour’s record-keeping so it can be found.  And the rest of the hundreds of thousands that Key is claiming.

But instead we have no evidence but an anonymous claim, and the National smear unravelling.

1 see: Key on Ian Fletcher etc

214 comments on “Is the $15,000 even true?”

  1. infused 1

    It’s how the money got to Labour. Having no trace is exactly the point.

    It’s like you walk in to one door, open it, then walk in to another.

    • McFlock 1.1

      So you haven’t stopped beating your wife, then. A secret source suggested to me that you might have beaten her in the past.

      Same logic – if there’s no proof of an act, it’s just proof that you covered it up. You should resign your job…

    • Colonial Viper 1.2

      Well, if it never happened, of course there is “no trace.” Duh.

    • mickysavage 1.3

      Even if it did happen I am still struggling to see the relevance. It is not as if a Labour Minister put pressure on the police to drop a prosecution or anything …

  2. nadis 2

    “where’s Donghua himself in all this?”

    I suggest be careful what you wish for……. If this is a carefully crafted attack then that will likely be the next step. Affidavits away.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 2.1

      +1

    • freedom 2.2

      Anything short of a sworn Affidavit from Liu is meaningless now the Nats have woven so much cloth from the emporer’s new thread

      • lprent 2.2.1

        And any such affidavit should have dates and location in it to have any validity. Ideally he should be able to show the transaction from bank records. So far all that I have seen is bullshit.

        • freedom 2.2.1.1

          With numerous stalled developments of various scale littering Auckland (and elsewhere?) I imagine Liu’s bank and tax records would make for some complicated reading and finding any donations may prove more difficult forensically than he and his associates are comfortable with.

          • Rob 2.2.1.1.1

            So almost as complex as Cunliffe’s trust arrangement. I wonder why these people need these things…..

            • freedom 2.2.1.1.1.1

              Can you be a little more specific?
              I only ask because the speed and vagueness of your reply looks a bit knee jerky and liable to collapse when put against publicly accepted facts.

          • lprent 2.2.1.1.2

            So we get these dumbarse whisper campaigns instead…. Nuisance value and getting good for 3 month bans,.

    • David H 2.3

      But if the affidavits are incorrect, or even Wail oil specials, then I would expect Lawsuits to flow thick and fast. And I also imagine Donghua liu would not like that at all. Maybe he’s ‘Gone home to China.’

  3. blue leopard 3

    Gees you have to question everything that members of this government say.

    If Labour can’t find evidence of this donation and don’t know about it – it kind of destroys the whole argument; which is people having influence through the amounts they are donating.

    Donating isn’t a problem – it is when they get special treatment for doing so that is the problem.

    The best way to avoid this issue entirely is to address serious disparity in wealth. That way no one gains special treatment or more power due to their account balance because there are no longer people who have huge amounts more than others.

    • Ant 3.1

      You’d expect they’d have a donation that big on record even if it wasn’t declared properly, just for the plain fact that they’d want to know who they could hit up for more cheques.

      • blue leopard 3.1.1

        They might have it on record – it might be that they can’t find it. Or it may be that it didn’t occur.

        Both these questions are beside the point – if they are not aware of the donation then the accusation that the donation is influencing their policies or behaviour – which is the problem here – has no foundation.

    • David H 3.2

      “Gees you have to question everything that members of this government say”

      Yep if TricKey told me that Monday comes after Sunday. I would STILL check it on a Calender.

  4. bad12 4

    infused, the density of your comment would indicate that at the time it was decided upon your particular quotient of brains a couple of planks worth was definitely out of the order, someone obviously nipped down to Bunnings for a whole packet of four by two,

    What we know, is that Liu may have bid on an auction being run by,(a part),of the Labour Party, this has been said to be either an auction for a book or bottle of wine,

    Now there is NO evidence of this what-so-ever to be found in the Labour Party records which would strongly hint to anyone that if such a ‘win’ at an auction took place the monies didn’t go to Labour as a central organization, instead to Labour at some Branch level,

    BUT, having said all that, there is NO evidence from anyone that Liu gave money to ANY part of the Labour Party through either a direct donation or through ‘winning’ an auction,

    IF you have any shred of evidence that would suggest otherwise please provide it or shut the fuck up as the tiresome whine of the ‘wing-nuts’ claiming that such donations were made without a shred of evidence is getting far too tiresome to continue reading…

  5. Enough is Enough 5

    Why are we asking this question? It looks like a time bomb to me. And if its not explaining is loosing anyway.

    Cunliffe walked straight into the Nat’s dirty ambush this week. Lets not go down that track again.

    This has the scent of exactly the same thing. Get Labour to deny it outright and then bang release an affidavit from the corrupt China Man.

  6. BM 6

    Key = Jimmy Page
    Labour = Fender Stratocaster

    • grumpy 6.1

      As opposed to duelling banjos.

    • Tom Jackson 6.2

      Jimmy Page almost always plays a Gibson Les Paul, Gibson EDS-1275, Fender Telecaster or Danelectro. Hardly ever a Strat.

      I think you mean Jimi Hendrix.

      If you’re going to make puerile insults, at least make them historically accurate.

      • grumpy 6.2.1

        Eric Clapton plays a Fender…………………

      • BM 6.2.2

        Thank you Mr Guitar trainspotter.

        I was actually just using the Fender Stratocaster in a generic sense, then for accuracy.

        Bit like saying, he was using a bobcat instead of a Hyundai skid loader, bit more chance of people knowing what I’m talking about.

        • Tom Jackson 6.2.2.1

          Generic sense? That just makes it worse.

          Someone needs to attend the School of Rock. 😉

        • felix 6.2.2.2

          “bit more chance of people knowing what I’m talking about.”

          Yeah, ‘cos people who know who Page is and know what a Stratocaster is wouldn’t have a clue what a Les Paul is.

          Moran.

      • Anthony B'stard 6.2.3

        Tom Jackson, epic fail there dude – google images pulls back hundreds of photos of Page with various strats both in concert and in the studio, as well as just for shits and giggles.

        • David H 6.2.3.1

          @AB’stard
          “Jimmy Page almost always plays a Gibson Les Paul, Gibson EDS-1275, Fender Telecaster or Danelectro. Hardly ever a Strat.”

          Cant you fucking read???

          “Jimmy Page almost” see the word ALMOST?
          “Hardly ever a Strat” see the word HARDLY?

          Fuck it’s worse than teaching my 3 year old to read. But at least he gets things right and goes OOopps when wrong. Unlike the Trolls on here, sometimes I feel like Billy Goat Gruff crossing the Bridge.

          Damn I wish I could get underlines and strike through’s to work

    • fender 6.3

      Nah Key is the priest and Labour the altar boy..

  7. grumpy 7

    Matthew Hooten is hinting at $300k. That’s a BIG paper bag.

      • karol 7.1.1

        And your analysis of this bit of delusionary propaganda?

        What the left calls “the neoliberal experiment” the right believes is the most progressive set of policies ever to have been implemented in the history of the world, that has lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty in China, South East Asia and (more slowly) India, as opposed to the alternative approach that has caused misery in much of South America and Europe.
        We believe that everyone in New Zealand has gained from the post-1984 consensus and that a shift to what Cunliffe proposes would harm everyone in New Zealand.
        We may of course be wrong.
        But we believe this quite passionately.

        hint – try looking at the growth in the inequality gap following the beginning of this brave neoliberal experiement with the lives and well being of Kiwis?

        • grumpy 7.1.1.1

          Nah, it’s the last couple of lines I was getting at.

          • karol 7.1.1.1.1

            Why didn’t you say – so someone called graham reporting a rumour is your evidence? Don’t be shy – actually state why you included the link rather than just posting it.

            And it will get worse for Labour when the rumoured $300k issue emerges.

            If Labour aren’t aware of this alleged 300k, and don’t know what the allegations are referring to, is it an issue? Or just some frothing by right wing fantacists?

            Hint – you can’t do favours for cash, if you aren”t aware of who the donors are and how much they gave.

            • grumpy 7.1.1.1.1.1

              Look closer. The comment is by Matthew Hooten replying to Graeme. Now, as I am sure you know, Hoots is likely to know a thing or two about this.

              • lprent

                But Hooton is also perfectly willing to stoke the rumour mill if it can done in a such a way that it doesn’t cause legal issues. In this case talking about a organisation and providing no details.

                PR people tend to be like that. Bullshit artists..

                • McFlock

                  Hooten a bullshit artist?

                  Bullshit finger-painter, more like.

                  And slater just mashes the bowl of bullshit with his fists.

              • karol

                Oh. Didn’t realise it was Hooton who’d written such delusional stuff about neoliberalism.

                • Tracey

                  Hoots must have slept through the 87 crash and the gfc, or through inside knowledge got his skin out of the game in time.

                  • alwyn

                    You didn’t need inside knowledge to avoid the 87 crash in New Zealand.
                    All you needed was a brain in your head.
                    If you didn’t realise that there was an almighty bubble of assets being passed around between Brierley, Chase Renouf, Judgecorp, Equiticorp etc with them declaring huge profits based on nothing shouldn’t have anything to do with the market.

                    The GFC was rather harder to pick, at least as to how far it would spread.
                    I would observe that very few of the so-called “insiders” did get out.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      I would observe that very few of the so-called “insiders” did get out.

                      Correct. Many a major investment banking crash and burn almost happened – theirs was a great business model to be gifted hundreds of billions of dollars by the tax payer though.

          • Anne 7.1.1.1.2

            Not directly related to the $15,000 but just seen this “update” at the Herald website.

            http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11278299

            Seems an OIA was also sought for the Williamson and Banks letters to Immigration re- Liu’s citizenship bid. Immigration declined to release the Williamson and Banks letters citing privacy reasons, but was happy to release the Cunliffe letter.

            Now what does that suggest – corruption within Immigration NZ?

            • grumpy 7.1.1.1.2.1

              What it show to me is that anyone who needs that many letters from politicians to get into the country, shouldn’t.

              • Colonial Viper

                So why is Immigration protecting Williamson and Banks, but treating Cunliffe as a second class citizen? And are you good with two separate standards being applied?

                This is fucking up on National big time.

                • grumpy

                  Doubt that they are, we all knew Williamson was helping Liu, he went too far and lost his portfolio over it. Probably OIA has been rejected, as The Herald’s previous one was because of how it was worded.
                  You are welcome to take Banks up on whatever he wrote.
                  Note though, that neither of these guys has been howling in outrage about imagined scandals, that it turns out they were donkey deep in.

        • Tom Jackson 7.1.1.2

          I don’t think anyone sane has ever disputed that adoption of a free market mechanism for the provision of many goods can lift countries out of poverty.

          But he’s barking mad if he thinks that first world standards of living can be obtained without the welfare state.

    • David H 7.2

      Hooton is nothing but a purveyor of National Party Horseshit!

      Thank god he don’t get dressed up in a blue tutu.
      http://www.zazzle.co.nz/cute_pink_ballet_ballerina_elephant_in_tutu_tile-227319104202552640

  8. Adrian 8

    Liu, 12 fucking years in the country and still can’t speak a word of English ( or can he ? ). Maybe he just doesn’t understand what ever it is that Maurice speaks.
    Send the fucker back to China where on reflection their practice of decapitation for corrupt ” businessmen” looks like an idea with some merit.

    • grumpy 8.1

      What a shame then that Labour set the wheels in motion to prevent that by giving him residency only ONE DAY before the election.
      Like Owen Glenn, best mates while Labour was bleeding them….

      • Tracey 8.1.1

        didnt owen glenn buy winston according to john key?

        • alwyn 8.1.1.1

          Who knows, but he certainly coughed up $500,000 for the Labour Party which should have bought at least a bit more gratitude than it did.
          Helen Clark wouldn’t even greet him in public a little later on. Do you remember how whenever he moved near her at some function, (I think to do with his donations to Auckland University), Trevor Mallard intercepted and diverted him.

      • David H 8.1.2

        And then this in the Granny… Now it looks like Liu is not that happy either at being a political football.

        “The events had left Liu feeling “like a bit of a political football” and that media had “treated me as some opportunistic foreigner who is only here to make money and throw his weight around”.

        “Sure, I’ve donated to political parties, met and socialised with MPs, even lobbied for changes to enable more investment into the country. However, let me be clear, no one’s ever promised to deliver me anything,” said Liu.

        “Every New Zealand politician I’ve ever dealt with over the years has pretty much just said ‘Thank you Donghua, we hear you loud and clear, we know we can do better, but we’ve got a lot to consider’.”

        http://www.nzherald.co.nz/election-2014/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503581&objectid=11278520

    • Blue 8.2

      Your xenophobia speaks volumes. Don’t forget to wipe the spittle from your chin when you log off.

    • felix 8.3

      “Liu, 12 fucking years in the country and still can’t speak a word of English ( or can he ? ). Maybe he just doesn’t understand what ever it is that Maurice speaks.”

      If I lived next to Maurice I’d probably not let him know I could speak English either.

  9. tsmithfield 9

    I don’t know about the $15000 donation. But the trip to China by Barker has been admitted. In fact, it turns out that Lui the dinner Barker had with Lui was on a nice boat cruise down the Yangtze river.

    No word on whether Barker drank any milk though. 🙂

  10. Anne 10

    I can’t believe these numbskull rwnjs. They must be panicking big time. Next thing we’ll hear that Barker was seen going into a toilet on the boat and was heard talking to someone while he was in there.

    • karol 10.1

      They must think the smoke and mirrors of smears, based on flimsy facts, amounts to accusations of substance. Either they are panicking, or they are just following the strategies of much of big business – it’s the impression and perception that counts: bugger the facts. Manipulation of perceptions and propaganda is easier to do than produce evidence of substance.

    • grumpy 10.2

      Over 55% in the polls, yep, that’s a great reason to panic.

      • Enough is Enough 10.2.1

        Why the need to attack Cunliffe then?

        • Colonial Viper 10.2.1.1

          Because they are scared witless by Cunliffe.

          • Melb 10.2.1.1.1

            He’s floundering, and has been ever since he became leader. Perhaps they’re putting him out of his misery.

            • Colonial Viper 10.2.1.1.1.1

              Well he’s had a bit of a rough start but simply getting to grips with the demands of the Leaders office and the role of Leader is a full on 12 month job. But Cunliffe is very capable and he is accelerating up the steep part of the learning curve as we speak.

        • grumpy 10.2.1.2

          Hypocrites are fair game and lying sanctimonious hypocrites even more so.

    • grumpy 10.3

      While drinking a glass of milk – the scandal!!!

  11. fender 11

    Truth, openness and integrity are not qualities National waste any time worrying about. These allegations are just untruthful revenge tactics employed by a corrupt Govt. who are extremely bitter about having their corruption exposed.

    • Tracey 11.1

      well cunliffe has asked key to table the information about alleged donations so the party and he can deal with it openly and honestly?

      Money on key doing that anytime soon anyone? Is ipredict running a book on that one?

      • Enough is Enough 11.1.1

        Why would he. He wants to win an election. The best time to do that from his perspective would be about 2-3 weeks out from the election.

        • Tracey 11.1.1.1

          cos he is an honest guy who believes in transparency and said he would even answer questions people forgot to ask.

      • srylands 11.1.2

        Tracey don’t be stupid all your life.

        Andrea Vance nailed it:

        Andrea Vance @avancenz · Jun 18

        “WTH? Labour are asking the Government questions on their own scandal? is this a good plan?”

        • Tracey 11.1.2.1

          Slylands

          Fuck Off

          • lprent 11.1.2.1.1

            Why? (Good thing for you that I am reading, not moderating)

            • grumpy 11.1.2.1.1.1

              Time for everyone to go home and have a good night’s sleep. Another day tomorrow.

              • Pasupial

                grumpy

                Do you only post during business hours?

                Your boss must be pissed at your wasting the time he’s paid for (as well as ours in having to scroll past your blather). Unless, of course, you’re just a paid shill for Nact and its exploitative masters.

            • Tracey 11.1.2.1.1.2

              because for months he accuses me of being drunk, stupid, deluded, and i turn the other cheek. Today was one occassion i stooped

          • srylands 11.1.2.1.2

            Totally rude. Seriously all I did was share a post by Andrea Vance which says it all. No need to go ape shit. And if you act drunk, folk will think you are drunk. If that is not the case I withdraw and apologise.

            • Pasupial 11.1.2.1.2.1

              Srylands don’t be stupid all your life.

            • dimebag russell 11.1.2.1.2.2

              well why dont you say what you think.
              quoting others all the time is lazy and moranic.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 11.1.2.1.2.3

              S Rylands, you maggot, you have done little but abuse and defame Tracey for months, which makes you a rancid hypocrite with a severely diminished sense of personal responsibility.

              Sucking on the public tit all your life, eh, “policy” boy.

            • dave 11.1.2.1.2.4

              hooton and sryland can fuck off and take there lies with them

        • grumpy 11.1.2.2

          Gold, Vance gets it.

        • McFlock 11.1.2.3

          Labour would just like to know what national are planning to make up next.
          Seems reasonable enough

          • grumpy 11.1.2.3.1

            It is, if you have lost control of your own scandal.

            • McFlock 11.1.2.3.1.1

              It’s not “your own scandal” if someone else is just making shit up.

              • Anthony B'stard

                believe me, you can’t make this stuff up – its such an absolute mare that it would take someone far more talented than is working for a political party to contrive it. Total comedy gold.

                • McFlock

                  why would I believe you? I’d much rather some actual, you know, facts.

                  At the moment this “scandal” is just a bunch of invented stories from politicalopponents.

            • Tracey 11.1.2.3.1.2

              when does your scandal become someone elses…

        • One Anonymous Bloke 11.1.2.4

          Vance also cites a stuff straw poll that says 44% want a change of government. Her credibility is so shiny I had to wear a microscope to see it.

  12. Skinny 12

    It is all spin doctoring by National to try convince people that the election is a forgone conclusion. How can the idiot media be allowed to push such horse shit out there based on one dodgy poll of 23%.

    Labour & The Greens need to hammer home the message that counts 10,000 votes was the difference at the last election, so make your vote count this time. Nationals own polling of the likes of South Auckland and other poorer areas will be telling a very grim story of people intending to vote this election. This will be the real story and the spin merchants are working overtime.

  13. Tracey 13

    If it exists, if it was undeclared, isnt that a problen Bunji?

    The truth iss irrelevant. The right wingers who post here have made that clear. To them lying is not an issue, it is how competent you are at it, and if you “get away with it”.

    That the truth from the lips of our politicians has become irrelevant, how do we expect youngsters to comprehend the difference between right and wrong?

    The fish rots from the head, and if nzgovt is the fish, we barely have the bones left.

    Funny how the right lean on The Prince to rationalise and justify behaviour while sitting in moral judgment on beneficiaries. I include a number of labour mps in that.


    Princes who set little store by their word but have known how to over-reach men by their cunning have accomplished great things, and in the end got the better of those who trusted to honest dealing. The prince must be a lion, but he must also know how to play the fox. He who wishes to deceive will never fail to find willing dupes. The prince, in short, ought not to quit good courses if he can help it, but should know how to follow evil courses if he must.”

    Sadly many writing about the issues over the last wee while consider that a compliment

    • srylands 13.1

      “The fish rots from the head, and if nzgovt is the fish, we barely have the bones left.”

      Honestly what crap. Have you ever been to other countries?

      WE have extremely open government. We are one of the few governments with GAAP accounts. We have a Public Finance Act that continues to be world leading. We have an extremely low level of corruption. A record high satisfaction with government services.

      You are so deluded. Leave the couch and get out for some fresh air. Or go and experience some other countries for a few months and then come back and tell us that shit about the fish. You are unbelievable.

      • McFlock 13.1.1

        Well, it’s not quite Australia (where you live), but the fact that the cops said there was insufficient evidence for a prosecution when in fact there was evidence beyond reasonable doubt speaks volumes. as does the fact that letters from government MPs are withheld from OIA releases, but letters from opposition MPs are released in double-quick time.

      • Colonial Viper 13.1.2

        What the fuck is this “WE” crap, Shitlands? You are a foreigner, you’ve never been to NZ, you’ve never worked in NZ. Fuck off with your false pretences.

        [lprent: Fact? Link please. ]

        • Hayden 13.1.2.1

          lprent: srylands claims to live in Australia here:

          Who would buy Meridian shares after MRP?

          There’s been a fair bit of general weirdness about geography, e.g., having a (employer-supplied?) carpark at 125 The Terrace but working in Pipitea St, accusing people of living in Outer Kaiti (same post); I don’t know about having never been here, but mentioning Australia is usually an effective way of dispatching srylands.

          • Tracey 13.1.2.1.1

            Thanks for saving me the trouble. Thank god his imaginary kids have an imaginary mother who votes green.

          • Colonial Viper 13.1.2.1.2

            Really appreciate the assist. And thanks for the thought Tracey.

          • srylands 13.1.2.1.3

            You do realise that many people commute between countries don’t you? Or have you never been out of NZ? What gets me is the xenophobia you show against anyone who doesn’t fit your idea of a New Zealander. You are a racist.

            • Hayden 13.1.2.1.3.1

              What gets me is the xenophobia you show against anyone who doesn’t fit your idea of a New Zealander.

              What? Proof of such please, apart from you, or withdraw.

              You are a racist.

              I didn’t realise Australian was a race.

              From the link above:

              srylands:

              [in response to a question about GST being 15%] yes I looked it up – 15% – but it is 10% in Australia where I live.

              srylands:

              Who cares? Kapiti, Sydney, doesn’t matter. We are all citizens of the world now anyway.

              You are the person who claimed to live in Australia, apparently to somehow justify not knowing what the rate of GST in NZ was. It’s also quite amusing to watch you scuttle off whenever someone brings it up, although apparently that’s been tried once too often.

              • srylands

                The proof is your hostile reaction to me because I commute between Australia and New Zealand. You either hate Australians or hate Australians who are also New Zealand citizens or you hate foreigners. It is taking the new Left anti-immigration stance too far IMO.

                I have certainly lived in Australia for long periods. I have lived in New Zealand for long periods. I am a citizen of both countries. All the statements I have made about residence were correct when I made them.

                As a New Zealand citizen and a taxpayer I resent you and your fellow travellers directing xenophobic hostility towards me because I don’t fit your idea of a New Zealander. It is deeply disturbing. I hope it is an unfortunate view that you and Colonial Viper holds. Maybe it is a South Island thing he has. I have no idea. But I hope you get condemned for your views.

                • BM

                  It’s a South island thing, they’re a bit backward down dem ways, banjos, pigs, lots of grease, you get the picture.

                  Thank goodness for Cook strait is all I can say and heaven help us up North if they ever work out what the ferry is for.

                  • Hayden

                    You’re not exactly helping your cause (either of you) when you ascribe “xenophobia” to being from a geographical area.

                • Hayden

                  What a load of bollocks. You don’t know my motivations, ergo you’re lying.

                  Did you live in Kapiti on August 19 2013 and Australia on August 28 2013? Did you forget the rate of GST on the flight over?

                  • BM

                    Lots of people work in multiple counties, usually the company they work for has offices in two or more counties.
                    I’ve known a few to be working one week in Melbourne the next in NZ, than over to Singapore for a bit.

                    • Hayden

                      Yes, of course, but they generally say that when discussing their place of residence.

                      They probably also know basic facts about the economy they’re lecturing people on, as well.

                  • srylands

                    I know your motivations are sinister.

                • Pasupial

                  Srylands don’t be stupid all your life.

                  The reason for the “hostile reaction” to you is in your own words. Your general demeanor of fuckwittery wins you no friends.

                  The length of time you claimed NZ GST rate to be 10% argues against you spending much of your time in Aotearoa. What proportion of your annual tax is paid in Australia? My guess is more than 90%.

                  Also; learn what “racist” means – it is not a synonym of xenophobic (though Hayden has already pointed this out). Even that is incorrect as I don’t despise all Australians – just you.

                  (well; you, and Tony Abbott)

                  • Hayden

                    Hell, I haven’t been hostile towards anyone, just pointing out a pattern of behaviour and statements that’s caused a few people to doubt the provenance of this srylands character.

                    I don’t dislike Australians (I don’t hate anybody) except when they pretend to be New Zealanders and stir up shit on blogs. Or they insist on being taken back to the Brisbane CBD to meet up with their annoying fiancée who apparently can’t amuse herself for another 30 minutes, causing my ride to the airport to be late and me to subsequently miss my Brisbane-Sydney flight, and therefore my Sydney-Wellington flight. And over-officious counter staff (not the lovely lady at the Domestic terminal who managed to get me on Brisbane-Auckland so I’d at least be in the right country, but the drama-queen of a bloke at International).

                  • srylands

                    “What proportion of your annual tax is paid in Australia? My guess is more than 90%.”

                    I suggest you are a fuckwit.

                    100% of my tax is paid in New Zealand. That is because I am a tax resident of New Zealand.

                    You are a presumptious xenphobic turd.

                    • McFlock

                      Really? Next you’ll be spouting Australian tax rates again…

                    • Pasupial

                      Srylands don’t be stupid all your life.

                      If you spend any time at all in Australia then anything you purchase there would be subject to GST at the rate of 10% (you have demonstrated that do know this already). Therefore it is not possible for you to pay 100% of your annual tax in NZ.

                      Loathing you and your drivel does not me xenophobic (“you keep using that word – I do not think it means what you think it means”). Nor is it presumptuous of me to respond to statements made in a public forum such as TS.

                      But if you choose to suggest that I am a; fuckwit turd, then allow me to state that your words are surely: The most foetid dribble of diarrhoea ever to be smeared upon the toilet wall of life by a cackhanded fool who is evidently unable to comprehend the basics of social life, such as; empathy, courtesy for others, or civilised behaviour.

                      I hope that your overstimulated bile-ducts will soon rupture and lead to an agonizing demise from peritonitis, so that I no longer have to scroll past your shit.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Lol, Shitlands

          • srylands 13.1.2.1.4

            “having a (employer-supplied?) carpark at 125 The Terrace but working in Pipitea St”

            That is totally odd isn’t it? Having a carpark (which I pay for) 10 minutes walk from the office.

            • Hayden 13.1.2.1.4.1

              There are several closer, but each to their own, I guess. I hope you’re car-pooling, otherwise you must really hate public transport to spend about $30 a day to end up further way than the railway station.

              • srylands

                Yeah so what happens when I change clients and don’t work in Pipitea Street any more?

            • dave 13.1.2.1.4.2

              evidence is overwheling sryland has been playing with his dingo for years but just cant get it up

          • Tracey 13.1.2.1.5

            nice reverse psychology. he went on a posting rampage just so you couldnt be right about mentioning australia causing hhimto disappear

        • srylands 13.1.2.2

          Really? And stop being rude. Again.

          You are a liar. I am a New Zealand citizen. I do spend some time in Australia but am a New Zealand resident and citizen (and a considerable taxpayer).

          You are being xenophobic, rude, and racist. Absolutely shocking. The pressure you are under is no excuse for that type of language and behaviour.

          • srylands 13.1.2.2.1

            I can post a selfie taken outside the GCSB building in Pipitea Street if that helps?

            • Hayden 13.1.2.2.1.1

              Sometime next week will do. Hold up a piece of paper with “My name is srylands and I don’t live in Australia” and the current date hand-written on it.

              • felix

                It would be helpful if the sign also read:

                “ps I was definitely lying when I said I live in Australia”

      • Tracey 13.1.3

        Hit your nerve there machiavelli slylands?

        For a guy who once wrote he didnt care enough about politics to get emotional you got very emotional about one comment i wrote…which you seperated from its context.

      • Pasupial 13.1.4

        So was it a different Srylands who posted this comment @ 2.1.1 on “Polity: the game is the game” thread?

        These electoral laws regarding political party financing and donations are crock of shit. They should all be abolished. Anyone should be free to donate their money to a political party. The public disclosure of the identity of donors should be voluntary.
        Along the same lines, there should be no restrictions on political advertising or the financing of such advertising.”

        As it seems to contradict your statement above:

        WE have extremely open government. We are one of the few governments with GAAP accounts. We have a Public Finance Act that continues to be world leading. We have an extremely low level of corruption. A record high satisfaction with government services.

      • David H 13.1.5

        Here we go Sorryglands is spouting bullshit again.

        “We have an extremely low level of corruption.” This may have been true until this mob of thieves and liars got into power.

        “A record high satisfaction with government services.” You don’t even live here so you know nothing of the shit you have to go through to get anything dome by this mob. Unless it’s them cutting benefits

  14. dimebag russell 14

    So where did john keys get the $80,000,000 from?
    thats what I would like to know.

    • alwyn 14.1

      Presumably you are claiming that John Key is personally worth $80 million.
      Can you, or anyone else provide any real evidence that this is the case?
      And real evidence isn’t hack journalists interviewing their keyboards.
      As lprent says just up from here at 13.1.2
      Link Please.

      • dimebag russell 14.1.1

        link stink!
        show us the $15,000 you moran!
        and dont tell me what to do and dont tell lprent to tell me what to do either. that is extra superstrength moranic!

        • alwyn 14.1.1.1

          The word I think you are trying to write is Moron by the way. And, by the way, the Prime Minister’s name is John Key, not John Keys.

          Why are you so upset? You are the one who brought up the $80 million. I assumed you were interested in that and had some reason for picking that number. That is why I asked where you got it from. I, like you, decided that “thats what I would like to know”.

          Apparently you haven’t got a reason, and aren’t interested after all, so I’ll assume you didn’t mean the comment.

          • dimebag russell 14.1.1.1.1

            do what you like.
            unlike tory gangsters I have no desire to make others do anything.
            If thats their speed then so be it.
            and I am not upset.
            I dont give A SHIT.
            so answer the question.
            where didjohn keys get $80,000,000 from.
            thats a lot of maney for not producing anything tangible.

            • alwyn 14.1.1.1.1.1

              But Russell you seem to be confused.
              First you say ” I have no desire to make others do anything”
              Then, a couple of lines later you say
              “so answer the question.
              where didjohn keys get $80,000,000 from”
              How on earth can you both say you don’t want to make me answer and then demand I do so?
              If you can show me how you know that John has actually got $80 million it might be possible to attempt to answer the question. It appears however to simply be a number that you have made up. Can I ask you to explain where David Shearer got $US 200 million in his New York bank account? That is just as silly a question as neither of us know how much Key, or Shearer, is worth and I, like you, have just drawn a figure out of thin air.

          • weka 14.1.1.1.2

            They probably mean moran.

            Open mike 27/04/2014

            • alwyn 14.1.1.1.2.1

              You learn something every day. I had certainly never heard of an asteroid of the name.
              In fact I would be hard pressed to name more that about 3 asteroids so it is not surprising.

              The nearest thing that came to mind was the film “Breaker Morant”.
              On the other hand I agree with Draco T Bastard in the bit you linked to. I also hate that misspelling.

          • john 14.1.1.1.3

            Alwyn – either you are a Maasai warrior from Kenya (a “moran”), or a moron has spelt moron as moran.

            • alwyn 14.1.1.1.3.1

              I surrender. The word actually does have a choice of real meanings.
              The arcane knowledge that people bring up on these blogs never ceases to astonish me.
              I like the sentiment in the second part of your sentence though.

  15. Bob 15

    Hmm, wasn’t Mike Williams President of the Labour Party back then? Maybe that is why they can’t find any trace of the money? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRBadxNFbWc&feature=player_embedded

  16. Tracey 16

    Is the whole file, as released under the oia, now available, or just parts of it?

    • Bunji 16.1

      No, just opposition MPs letters… see NRT post on main page…

      • grumpy 16.1.1

        hint…..follow the money.

        • freedom 16.1.1.1

          noooooo nooo nooooooo you don’t want people to start doing that
          can you imagine what would happen to democracy if political funding was transparent 😉

        • Hami Shearlie 16.1.1.2

          What money?? Where is the video of the trenchcoated man with the dirty dog sunglasses carrying the humungous paper bag full of hundred dollar bills and handing it to David Cunliffe with Mike Williams and Helen there with their rubber finger stalls on, ready for the counting?

            • McFlock 16.1.1.2.1.1

              let us know when there’s any actual evidence, won’t you?
              You know, something more than runour…

              • RedLogix

                McF – facts not required.

                When did you last see a rwnj resort to ‘facts’?

                • McFlock

                  RedLogix – I think key might have mentioned something in the House, but he had to run back and ask for leave to “correct” his response into saying that he couldn’t remember who made the phone call…

            • john 16.1.1.2.1.2

              Six years ago in 2008 the Herald were probing Labour about certain donations from Liu. i.e specifically a donation from Liu at the Jade Terrace Restaurant in 2008.

              At the same time the National opposition asked under the Official Information Act for all correspondence from Labour MPs into the Liu case. That’s six years ago.

              • McFlock

                Six years ago in 2008 the Herald were probing Labour about certain donations from Liu. i.e specifically a donation from Liu at the Jade Terrace Restaurant in 2008.

                At the same time the National opposition asked under the Official Information Act for all correspondence from Labour MPs into the Liu case. That’s six years ago.

                but woodhouse and keyster said they were told about it only a few weeks ago.

                Are you calling them liars?

                • john

                  It depends what came out, and who was given it, but the point is if National got all the material from the Liu case back in 2008, they could be sitting on a lot more material that they realise.

                  That might be why Shane Jones has suddenly resigned and taken off. He gave Liu NZ citizenship against all advice.

                  Immigration weren’t even sure who he was, and were still investigating that at the time.

                  There was ALSO a DIA investigation, AND a police investigation, and Liu was on a wanted list at Interpol.

                  But Shane Jones gave him NZ citizenship despite all that.

                  There’s something very, very wrong there.

                  How can you give someone citizenship when immigration are still trying to find out who they really are?

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Wow you righties are really hoping that Labour doesn’t come back with guns blazing on the major policies/issues/concerns of daily living front.

                    Trying to tie down David Cunliffe on this BS that no one cares about and which even the MSM has trouble keeping alive on life support is making National look more stupid and venal by the day.

                    • Lanthanide

                      Yes, the MSM run on this story has been strangely attenuated. They sort of gave up the ghost and have been in a self-reflection mode about how much of a story it really is, as well as contemplating the further details of the alleged $300k donation that Liu apparently has made.         

                    • Colonial Viper []

                      The MSM are trying to make front page news of the political and literal equivalent of a minor filing error from a previous decade. It’s daft.

                  • McFlock

                    You meathead – jones was given a sinecure especially tailored for him by national. Why would this lot bribe him when they could have blackmailed or just dished dirt on him?

                    But I agree on one point – Labour’s better off without Jones.

                  • NZ Femme

                    John – you are mistaken. Liu was granted citizenship by National MP Nathan Guy, after extensive lobbying by Banks and Williamson. Williamson himself conducted the citizenship ceremony in his own office.

                    I think you’ve confused residency with citizenship.

                    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11218598

              • Colonial Viper

                I love how National are ducking and diving any which way they can to avoid answering questions on policy and the big issues facing NZ.

              • karol

                Dear gods?!

                John @ 10.27pm – This misinformation was exposed yesterday. If this is the quality of the Nats’ smear team’s research, I don’t hold out much hope for their current rumours.

                You are talking about Yang Liu.

                This is Yang Liu, aka Bill Liu, Aka William Yan entering court in 2014.

                Now either Donghua Liu, if this is him, has undergone a remarkable transformation and premature aging process in the last 2 years, or you guys just cannot get your stories straight.

                • john

                  So this is yet another crook, who donated to the Labour Party, then got citizenship despite strong official advice against it, being on an Interpol wanted list, etc.

                  Immigration advised the Immigration Minister, David Cunliffe, that Liu should not get citizenship should because they were investigating him and did not even know who he really was, as apart from being wanted by Interpol for massive fraud, he had multiple identities.

                  Nine months later, knowing how dogy this criminal was, Labour knowingly gave this criminal (and Labour Party donor) a New Zealand passport.

                  http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10582518

                  • karol

                    Shane Jones was the one who overturned the advice, not Cunliffe. Shane Jones, Key’s golden boy. And Pansy Wong supported Billy Liu, too. Dover Samuel, too – another Labour MP no longer in parliament.

                    Then, in more recent times, it’s the current National government ministers who have been supporting and intervening on behalf of the other guy, Donghua Liu. You really are stretching things with your smear, which is looking pretty thin right now.

                    in the light of National’s abuse of the OIA today, this bit from one of the articles I linked to above is interesting:

                    Samuels believed his friend [Billy Liu] was fleeing human rights abuses, and would be in danger if he were returned to China.

                    The retiring Government MP said the Immigration Service and Internal Affairs Department had threatened to cancel Liu’s permanent residence, then had leaked the papers to Wishart as a smear campaign.

                  • McFlock

                    Just to clarify, Cunliffe did not overrule the immigration advice. That was done by Shane Jones, the guy Nact just created a new position for?

                    Nice save, though, the way you transferred your immigration indignation from one Chinese guy to another…

                • David H

                  Here’s pics of them both
                  http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/6950133/Case-of-a-well-connected-millionaire
                  This is the Fraud guy with multiple names.

                  http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10183370/Labour-cash-probed
                  Donghua is the older one in court for wife beating.

                  So okay all you Nutjobs out there, who’s who? As both USE the ‘same’ Bill Liu name.
                  Both have donated to political parties.
                  Both have had politicians ‘help’ them.
                  Both it seems have had politicians fired.

                  And from their behaviour, both are really not the type of people that the Investor plus category was set up for.

            • David H 16.1.1.2.1.3

              @Grumpy You obviously did not read the article, only the Headline but 3 paragraphs in was this little gem.

              “It is understood the affidavit was being pored over by lawyers today because there was a lack of documentation.”

              And no docs then it’s Bullshit!

              But given enough time I am sure anything can be fabricated.

  17. grumpy 17

    …and now the drama moves on. Multiple commenters with sound National connections are talking of hundreds of thousands of undeclared donations………

    The Banks case set the precedent, question is – who will be left in Labour or is this the beginning of the end? Who would have thought the left’s hounding of Banks would have led to this possibility?

    • Tracey 17.1

      why would national connections help, cos mark f was sure this was nothing to do with them.

    • lprent 17.2

      FFS are you trying to get me up from the sofa to cut off your unsustaintiated astroturfing based on twitter rumours and silly whisper campaigns on blogs. I would suggest that you wait until you can provide a substantial link to a news article.

      Pace yourself for the longer campaign, because I am starting to feel that 3 month bans look better for my workload than having to repeat myself.

  18. Observer Tokoroa 18

    I realise this site is a Green support blog ( Lprent and Tracey for instance) and a muck ground for National fiction writers, but if there is any Labor Lawyer on here, could they consider taking the Herald and Armstrong to court for implying illegalities on the part of Cunliffe.

    I realise they could lose any such case.

    But filing multiple actions against Herald reportage will put the Nats on notice – to some extent.

    • grumpy 18.1

      Where have you been. This site not only has a lawyer in a prominent position but he also has acted from time to time in giving Mr Cunliffe legal advice.
      I am sure that if there was any opportunity to do as you suggest, it would have been done by now.

    • Lanthanide 18.2

      It’s a very very bad move for politicians to file lawsuits against the media.

      • alwyn 18.2.1

        They are best to wait until they retire. I have been told, and I have no way of confirming it, the David Lange did quite well in his retirement bringing, or threatening to bring, cases against various media outlets.
        It worked very well until one target, and I don’t remember whether it was Metro or North and South, took the case through all the Court levels and got a decision that wrecked the system for him, and every other New Zealand politician.
        All active politicians should remember Mark Twain’s comment about not getting into a fight with someone who buys their ink by the barrel.

  19. Observer Tokoroa 19

    Hi Grumpy

    Key, Armstrong, Espiner, Hooton just fire bullet after bullet at Labor. Cunliffe even talks calmly and sensibly back at them. What he needs to do is to turn the tables. Every time an Armstrong takes a shot – all Cunliffe has to say is that “Armstrong has his facts wrong again”. Then repeat that and repeat it and repeat it. “ARMSTRONTG HAS HIS FACTS WRONG AGAIN”

    Lets try another one. “Key gets favoured treatment from every Govt Department”. He also gets false “facts” from every Govt department, including the Police. Key is a dangerous man for NZ.”

    Then say it and say it and say it

    Then ask the Media as a whole why they despise Labor? And ask it again and again and again. The Media in NZ publishes false facts, prepared by Key’s office.”

    Got it Grumpy?

  20. fisiani 20

    How much did Liu give to The Cunliffe’s secret leadership bid? Who knows? The Cunliffe refuses to register the gift as required.

    • dimebag russell 20.1

      proof?

    • Lanthanide 20.2

      Er, no, the donors who wanted to stay anonymous had their donations refunded, thus they are no longer donors.

      • karol 20.2.1

        So if Liu was one of those donors, why would he have wanted to keep his donation secret?

    • David H 20.3

      Link? or are you just typing one handed yet again Fizzy? it’s a wonder your keyboard works, what with all the drool and all that.

  21. karol 21

    So now Stuff is now reporting a rumour of a 3 figure donation from Liu to Labour, as indicated in an affidavit that lacks documentation…. hmmmm. Doesn’t sound very strong evidence of anything untoward to me.

  22. gobsmacked 22

    The lesson for Labour – and any other parties on the left – is to be much, much smarter.

    If you get a big donation from Glenn or Liu or SkyCity or whoever, make sure two things are public … who, and how much. No exceptions, ever.

    Yes, ideally they wouldn’t take the cash at all, but that’s not realistic until political funding is changed.

    Just be upfront. Everyone knows Kim Dotcom is stumping up the cash for his party, it’s all out there, and people can think whatever they like. The Greens had a big donation from Philip Mills – again, public knowledge, no issue.

    Just say to every would-be donor “We will make public your name and amount”. Problem solved.

    Otherwise you’re relying on rich manipulative bastards being loyal to the party’s interests, not their own. How stupid is that?

    • Colonial Viper 22.1

      I suggest a level playing field for all – anonymous donations permitted only up to say $1000 or $5000 per election per entity

  23. ianmac 23

    Strange that a Prime Minister wallows in rumour and gossip. Strange? More tawdry really.

  24. Lanthanide 24

    @ Lynn: in-thread reply seems to have been broken on this post. My reply above at 11:03pm is supposed to be in reply to CV at 10:53pm. I’ve tried 3 times but it keeps dumping it down at the bottom of the list.

    • lprent 24.1

      Ok. I’ll run the database cleanup to see what has broken.

    • lprent 24.2

      Ok. that looks like it is fixed.

      A comment was put into trash using the late edit, and a reply was added to it later (that is the problem with having a long edit). There is a periodic cleanup routine that is meant to fix those. But it didn’t see this one.

      That of course busted the threaded display – which is a whole separate problem.

      I look a backup of the db, so I will try to track it down later and put kill the bug in the comment_cleanup

  25. Jrobin 25

    Re looking stupid John Key has just surpassed any internationally embarrassing moment so far. His gob smacked look when he became the first war monger on the block to support air strikes on Iraq by US has to be seen to be believed. I wondered for a moment if I had gone to sleep and it was satire byJono and Ben but no, welcome to my nightmare this is our Prime Minister. I’d love to know what Helen Clark thinks of this farce. oh the shame, what an amateur, but not to worry John the corrupt media here will mostly let you off again.

    • David H 25.1

      I noticed that segment on the PHenry show but there don’t seem to be an on demand. And that look? Priceless. It was one of those ‘what the fark is going on’ looks.

    • ffloyd 25.2

      Jrobin. What was that about? Didn’t see it.

  26. karol 26

    No, John’s confused his Liu’s.

  27. upandcomer 27

    This is classic. So after Mike Williams says, er um we might of lost the bits of paper and dos crashed, but he was at all our fundraisers, that’s ‘proof’ of sth other then Labour needing an audit? Cunliffe and the other shills relentlessly went on their ocd nitpicks and blow ups and sleaze fests over minutiae for months. It takes some kind of balls and dissonance to be that lacking in perspective that when you’re caught out in blatant hypocrisy and deceit, and an excuse you didn’t afford the ppl you smeared, you accuse everyone but yourself of being nasty?! It’s a shambles. Who can trust anything Labour says now, if you ever could anyway.

  28. freedom 28

    “But Liu said he would not make any further comments about political donations or swear an affidavit outlining dollar amounts.”

    Key better have some really good cards in his hand, because his ace has slipped from his sleeve
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11278520

    • David H 28.1

      Really that’s not what this says…

      “It is understood the affidavit was being pored over by lawyers today because there was a lack of documentation.”

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10183370/Labour-cash-probed

      • ianmac 28.1.1

        No one is sure which lawyers were poring David. Anyway the up shot is that Mr Liu will not be doing anything further and he is rather disappointed that his donations are being used to score political points. I guess he must be a bit pissed off at his mate Key then.
        And no money? This just makes Key look stupid and strengthens the bad view we have on someone who deals in rumour and gossip.

      • freedom 28.1.2

        The info in your quote was Friday, my quote info was Saturday

        Perhaps you were confused about which lawyers had the paperwork. In my understanding of the information, Liu’s lawyers obviously were premature mentioning an affidavit they now will not release.

        On Saturday Liu’s statement is no affidavit, no more comments, no figures, no dates

  29. Philj 29

    xox
    I blame the greens for this entire mess! If they were in government none.of this would have happened./ sarc.

  30. Blackcap 30

    It seems the 15,000 isn’t true at all. A zero was missed off the end.

    • karol 30.1

      Still looking for documentation as evidence of this. The NZ Herald today is presumably using the affidavit by Liu that lawyers seem to have rejected for lacking supporting documentation.

      Show me the evidence of things Liu is claiming?

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