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Key vs Campbell: the transcript

Written By: - Date published: 1:22 pm, August 15th, 2013 - 272 comments
Categories: accountability, crosby textor, democracy under attack, john key, slippery, spin, Spying, tv, us politics - Tags:

This is a work in progress – taking some time to write up the transcript and my not finish it in the next few hours.  So I’ll update it later today, along with further comments. Transcript completed.

The interview of John Key on Campbell Live last night [Wed 14 Aug 2013] was an important one for many reasons.  It showed how slick, slippery John Key can be – a formidable PR opponent, and not to be underestimated by the likes of Team Shearer (as Martyn Bradbury points out in his post on the interview.)

On the one hand, Key’s interview highlighted how his media training is perhaps slicker than any previous leader we have ever had and that Shearer is going to have to start injecting steroids straight into his brain stem if he has any hope in the debates next year.

The following is as far as I’ve got with the transcript – important for looking closely at how Key operates in a contest: and it was a contest, between the usual politician aim to ignore probing journalist questions and make their prepared points; while the journalists tries to provide a challenge to such points.

The video is here.

I’ve added my comments in brackets.

JC:  We’ve devoted much of this week to the GCSB Bill. We’re on a nationwide road trip finding out whether you support or oppose the Bill or even if you feel that informed about it.  We’ve asked the prime minister to appear on a number of occasions to discuss the Bill.  He’s always declined until tonight. He is with me in the studio.  I am delighted to have you here Prime Minsiter. Welcvom.

JK: Great to be here. Thanks very much.

JC: Excellent. When Rebecca Wright our reporter asked you on Saturday at the National Party conference to discuss this issue you raised snapper quota.  You were fairly contemptuous of Rebecca’s question line.  You said no one gives a damn and you also said you probably wouldn’t come on our show.  What’s changed since then?

JK: Well firstly I’m right. Nothing’s changed about the snapper.  Umm. We got a 124 submissions on the GCSB Bill and 30,000 on snapper. You’re going up and down the country this week.  Fair enough. Well. I go up and down the country every week. And today was the Waikato. Yesterday was Oamaru and Dunedin and the likes. And people do not raise GCSB.  I have public meetings.  I have question sessions in everything I do.  I probably have half a dozen meetings a day with public, engaging with people.

[karol: Who are these meetings with?  Public?  Really?  Or various select sections of the public?]

JK (continues)  There is confusion about the GCSB,.  I’m prepared to accept that.  But actually people don’t raise this issue.  They certainly raise snapper. Secondly.  Why did I come on the show.  Well I said I probably wouldn’t, but, but actually there is so much in this information and so many things the shows got wrong,[JC going “Well”] I felt a responsibility to come on and try and correct those.

JC: Well well that’s excellent. I wish you’d come on around the time of the first reading.

JK: Sure! No problem. [karol: Emphatically – as though in agreement. So why didn’t he go on before?]

JC: That would have been fantastic- 3 months ago. Because we’ve asked you numerous times. And it seems to me and I’ve heard that there’s been internal polling, that people didn’t like your response to Rebecca Wright.  And maybe this is damage control coming from you, coming on tonight.  Is that not the case [?]?.

JK: Nope we polled, ah, as we poll every week and we poll Monday and Tuesdays and our polling last night was the same as the week before and the week before and the week before –  49%.

[karol – but Nat support could have stayed the same, but there still could have been a lot of people expressing dis-approval of Key’s comments on Snapper-GCSB comments –  if it was the same questions as every week, how would that get a response about the snapper comments?]

JC:  Whatever.  It’s great to have you here.  What have we got wrong?

JK: Well you got a number of things wrong. I  mean firstly.  The question you’re wondering into cafes and things around the country – and basically put, the proposition you’re putting to people is that under the GCSB law ah the government effectively through GCSB will be able to wholesale spy on New Zealanders. Factually totally incorrect. OK. So the only thing GCSB can do, under the law, which is actually with much greater clarity and far better oversight than the previous law, is 3 things: 1) foreign intelligence gathering. Nothing to with New Zealanders. 2) It can provide assistance to SIS, defence and police – that’s a narrowing of

JC: That’s 8C. Yeah  great

Jk: Do you know how many cases are involved in that?

JC: No I don’t.

JK: OK.  OK The Rebecca Kitteridge Report outlined the total number of times assistance was provided over the last decade – there were 88 individuals. 9 a year.  So that is not wholesale?  That’s 1 for every half a million New Zealanders.

[karol: but some of those individuals could have been spied on over a number of years –so – 9 a year?  And, as I understand it while it involved 88 individuals, that doesn’t tell us how many times the GCSB provided assistance over all]

JC:  Let’s that, let’s set that aside because I don’t think very many people are objecting to 8C.  Those who know what 8C is.

JK: [keen to get on with his 3rd point] The last point is cyber security.

JC: Yeah.

JK: OK. So that, under cyber security for a start off, GCSB, A has to get a warrant.

JC: From who?

JK: OK the warrant, like all warrant, is the same as the warrants from SIS

JC: From who?

JK: have to be signed by the Commissioner of Security Warrants, which is a retired high court judge.

JC: Appointed by who?

JK: By me. Has been

JC: Who is the other person who signs the warrants?

JK: OK Me right

JC: So you and a person that you have appointed sign the warrant.

JK: OK. Let’s take the first step back. [karol: a sign of a Key diversion when he is under pressure] Sir John Jeffreys was actually appointed by Helen Clark.  His just retiring.

JC: Absolutely.

JK: Now Sir Bruce Robinson taken over. But Sir Bruce Robinson was the president of the court of appeal. They are independent.  Are you really, seriously going to tell New Zealanders that the way the government is going to get round this

JC: Prime Minister

JK: is to corrupt a judge [JC protesting] That’s a very serious allegation, and not correct.

JC; No wai, wait a minute. You’re putting words in my mouth.

JK: Well you just said who appoints them.

JC: Well, you do appoint them.  That’s a statement of fact. There’s no allegation inherent in that [karol: Well, at least no allegation of corrupting a high court judge.  It’s an allegation that someone appointed by Key will be sympathetic to Key’s politics]

JK: OK But let’s take the UK as an example, just to give you an example of that [karol: diversion coming up]

JC:  I don’t want to take the UK as an example. I want to talk about New Zealand

JK [interrupting] OK

JC: Hold on Prime Minister, I want to read you 8A, because you’ve just raised

JK: No. Can I just finish one last point on this? OK. Cause it’s really important. It’s why I’m on the show. It’s to get the information out. You can say whatever you like. Unfiltered for days on end on your show. So. [karol: attack the person asking uncomfortable questions]

JC: Prime Minister, hold on. We’ve asked you on numerous times. Numerous. [JC looking and sounding weary at John Key’s diversions, and mis-directions]

JK: [ignoring JC’s last point, and ploughing on] OK. So then after those two people, myself signs a warrant. And it’s signed, well it’s actually it’s actually constructed by the Commissioner, which is a former, either High Court of Appeal Court judge.

JC: Appointed by you.

JK: OK It all has to be reviewed, or can be reviewed at any time:

JC: After the fact.

JK: by the inspector. OK So, for a start off, if any, if any unlawful behaviour was taking place, all of that is reviewed, which it would be anyway, but would be reviewed by the inspector. Now with the increased oversight, the inspector’s office has considerably more powers, is much more transparent, the director of the GCSB and SIS have to appear before the public

JC: OK

JK: So, so

JC: Prime Minister, I want to come back to the

JK: Can be no wholesale

JC; I want to come back to the mistake you say we are making. The big difference between this legislation and the 2003 Act that this is amending, is absence of section 14.  Dan can you whack up the graphic.  I’m going to read this out. So this is section 15:

Neither the Director, nor any employee of the Bureau, nor a person acting on beg=half of the Bureau may authorise or take any action for the purpose of intercepting the communications of a person who is a New Zealand citizen or a permanent resident.” That has gone hasn’t it?

JK: OK so that was passed by Helen Clark, OK?

JC: Why has it gone?

JK: OK, so that legislation was passed, but what you’re forgetting is, section 8 of the old Act. So what happened was, Helen Clark passed that law:

JC: Why has that gone?

JK: OK so what happened was, Helen Clark passed that law with section 14. But she did everything that is being proposed [karol: the “they did it too”, gambit.] She’s been doing. She did that. By the time she was Prime Minister, and I followed on. And had been done prior to that, because under section 8.  A reading of Section 8, allowed the GCSB to provide assistance.

JC: Although, that was an incorrect reading, wasn’t it? It was illegal and in the Kim Dotcom case you came out and apologised.

JK: no, no.  Quite wrong. Actually, quite wrong.  It was not illegal. What the lawyers did when they looked at , and some time ago.

JC: Why, why did you apologise to Kim Dotcom?

JK: OK let me come back to Kim Dotcom in a moment. So what the lawyers did, was they had a look some time ago, in fact actually the Inspector General, and said, “I’m just not quite sure about the way section 14, which is specific, works with Section 8, which is the general”

JK: OK. So basically, when the lawyers went and looked at it, they came back and said, “We think it’s probably lawful, but it’s subject to difficulties of interpretation.” OK. So take Kim Dotcom. OK. Kim Dotcom was illegal under the old law, which is why I apologised [karol: wait – didn’t JK just say it was either legal, or open to interpretation?] and it’s illegal under the new law.

JC: OK.

JK: No, no no no.  Don’t say [hello?] No no no. Let me finish. So what happened under Kim Dotcom was nothing to do with getting it, whether it was section 14 or section 8. The police went to  GCSB.  They said to GCSB, “Kim Dotcom is a foreigner. Under your foreign intelligence powers.  Which sit there – which are the ones you’re talking about under Section 14 – we want you to undertake this work.”  They said, “He’s a foreigner.” But actually, he was a resident class visa holder and they were totally wrong.  They were wrong.[JC: “absolutely, OK”  trying to interrupt] They were wrong then and they’d be wrong now.

[karol: but what about the 88 New Zealanders spied upon by GCSB?  And did the GCSB know but ignore the fact that Dotcom was a resident, because they thought it’d be OK to spy on a resident?] 

JC: OK.  I want to read you 8A, Prime Minister, 8A: Information and Assurance and cyber security. Right?

JK: Sure.

JC:OK “The function of the Bureau is to cooperate with and provide advice and assistance to any public authority, whether in New Zealand or overseas or to any other entity authorised by the Minister on any matters relating to the protection, security and integrity of communications.” Goes on: “To do everything that is necessary or desirable to protect the security and integrity of the communications and information infrastructures referred to in paragraph A” – Which was the first paragraph

JK: Ok so let me just tell you

JC: That is

JK: what it means

JC: It’s meaningless

JK:OK

JC: It’s so broad

JK: OK.  No, it’s not meaningless.  The lawyers absolutely understand that. It’s in the departmental report.

JC: The lawyers don’t understand it – the Law Society has strongly opposed this Bill.

JK: OK, we’ll come back to the Law Society in a moment. So what happens under that provision is, if the GCSB wanted to provide cyber security support to an agency – let’s take IRD and its facility – OK?  So that’s the provision, under which again, they’d have to go through that process of getting a warrant by the inspector or by the Commission, by me, subject oversight of the commissioner – OK, the inspector – OK. Fine. So, that’s the first thing.  You have to get a warrant. Do you know what happens under that? They cannot look at the content of

JC: OK.

JK: anything in there. All they can do, is protect you.  So it’s against malware, or against a vrus.  So you have on your computer

JC: Can I ask

JK: No, let me finish, cause it’s really important people understand this. So on your computer at home, you almost certainly have Norton anti-virus.

So far this takes us up to about 8 minutes into the video. To be updated….

John Key rattles off his facts and spin so quickly, it’s hard to respond immediately to the mis-directions, failures of the facts to support the claims, and the diversions.

[Transcript added 10.44mins]

JK: No, let me finish, cause it’s really important people understand this. So on your computer at home, you almost certainly have Norton Anti-virus.  Or you have some sort of anti-virus thing that you’ve downloaded and paid money for.  That is exactly what that is at a much higher level.

JC: OK. Well then

JK: Understand absolutely.  Understands

JC: That’s the kind of vacuuming that’s going on.

JK: No.  The point, the point here is that, you’re going into a shop.  Or you’re going down the main street of, of New Zealand, and you are saying “Do you want to be spied on?”  If you come and ask me that question, the answer John is “No.”

JC: No we’re not

JK: But you cannot do that

JC: We’re not asking people if they want to be spied on.

JK: under Section A.

JC: I’ll tell you what. Let’s play you some of the experts that are not experts. We’ve got 2 here ready to go.  Sir Bruce Fergusson former head of the GCSB; Geoffrey Palmer former head of the GCSB because he was a Prime Minister like you.   Listen to what they’ve said:

BF: I really I can’t get to grips with why it has to be rushed through so much, particularly given there is a large public concern about this.

GP: I think the manner in which the legislative process has been handled has been ur, pretty diabolical actually.  It seems to me that we needed to go into it in much greater depth. That we needed to look at the legislation much more thoroughly. That we needed the debate to be elongated, not cut off.

JK: OK.  So, let’s go through those points.  Firstly, is it rushed? A year ago, when we got advice from the lawyers, that at least there was difficulties of subject to interpretation around Section 14 versus Section 8, of Labour’s law, that they passed in 2003. OK?

JC: Yeah.

JK: we said, “Well, we gotta stop providing that assistance”.  So that’s the 88 individuals in those cases.  That’s what stopped.  It physically stopped.

JC: Yeah. Are you saying Sir Bruce Fergusson, Sir Geoffrey Palmer and the Law Society and the Privacy Commissioner and the Human Rights Commission are all wrong?

JK: Yep. OK

JC: And Anne Salmond New Zealand

JK: No no.  Let me finish. No. Let me just finish.

JC: Sure. Absolutely

JK: So, what they are, what happened was, we stopped. So the only assistance that was being provided by GCSB, under warrant, signed by all these individuals, for very serious issues.  People with links to terrorist activities; people who may have been involved in either providing information that could have been used for weapons of mass destruction; all of these things.

JC: You genuinely believe those people live in New Zealand

JK: Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. I’ll come back to that in a moment. Those 88.  Those 88 cases over 10 years – 9 people.  That assistance stopped. We then went about putting clarity into the law.  So people say it’s been rushed. That’s what Sir Bruce is saying, what Geoffrey Palmer is saying.

[Next section transcribed]

10.44mins

JC:  The Law Society, yeah.

JK: OK Well.  Is it rushed? OK. For a start off, the legislation’s been out there for some time. Secondly we ran a public hearing.  Thirdly, there is nothing that’s come up in any of the 124 submissions that hasn’t been answered off in the departmental report.  There’s great understanding that if you read that report

JC: [talking over JK] Prime Minister you [?] it. You are a [?] politician

JK: No I’m not.

JC: Yes you are. You’re doing a wonderful job on the show tonight. [JK talking over JC] You did rather hope that this would sneak through under the radar.  You haven’t fronted. You weren’t in the House for the committee stages.  You weren’t there for the second reading. You have been conspicuous by your absence.

JK: OK.

JC: You had one select committee day that you were there.  I want to go through, can I ask yo…?

JK: Can I just go through those, just while we’re here.

JC: I want to ask some quick questions to get yes or no answers.

JK: No, no. no whoa, whoa, whoa just let me finish my points.[both talking, hard to make out what they are saying]

JC: Absolutely

[karol: the last section was a contest where each tried to get in their points.  JK wanted to keep reeling off his points. JC was attempting to ask some challenging questions.  The ever competitive John key would not allow it, and wave down JC’s protests with his hands. JK won. JC gave way.]

JK: OK, so, for a start off, I’m a bit busy running the country. So I don’t need to go in there

JC: But this is major legislation.

JK: OK, I don’t need to go in there and read out a pro forma second reading speech.  By the way, Helen Clark didn’t appear in the parliament to read any of those statements or go to the committee stage. What I did do was in public hold those sessions. And by the way, when your mate Kim Dotcom said, “Oh John Key won’t front ever”, even though it was a sideshow, I actually sat there.

JC: Can I say something? I’ve never so much as had a cup of coffee with Kim Dotcom. I’ve done stories on him.

JK: Yeah but you’ve done so many stories which are absolute nonsense, and you know they are and I’ve actually answered those in the past.

JC: Prime Minister, feel free to sue us, go to the BSA, and [JK protesting] make a formal complaint

[both talking at the same time]

JC: Have you ever made a formal complaint?

JK: I don’t bother complaining because when you weave your web and do all those little things

JC: Prime Minister, I tell you what

JK: none of those are factually correct and you know that.

JC: you, you play the man and not the ball. I want to ask you some questions

JK: No I’m just saying facts.

12.27 mins.

Well, that last part was SO testy – and I actually don’t think in retrospect, that JK looked better than JC.  And as for Key turning up to the public hearing, even though he thought it was a sideshow? Seems like Key can resist a personal challenge. And,a s i recall, during the first public hearing session, Key did not engage, but only spoke to tell people their time was up.

12.27 mins.

JC: Can I have some yes or no answers on this?

JK: Sure.

JC: Is the GCSB using or does it have access to XKeyscore?

JK: Well, I’m not going to answer those questions.

JC; Why not?

JK: Because I don’t go into, and no prime minister has ever gone into, what techniques they actually use.

JC: So I’m I taking that as a yes.

JK: No don’t take it, no don’t take it as a yes. What I’m saying to you is, we have, we have, in 88 occasions in a decade used um basically the assistance [JC talking over Key] of GCSB

JC: Because you see the thing is, you’re sitting here, making very good reassurances, and telling us we’re fine

JK: I’m telling it because it’s correct

JC; But if the GCSB is using or has access to XFscore, then all of the stuff in your legislation is absolutely meaningless.

JK: What I’m telling you is, everything that GCSB does, is legal.  So what is legal is that they can provide

JC everything that GCSB does in New Zealand is legal,

JK: Correct

JC: are our partners able to do stuff that is illegal?

JK: No

JC: the NSA, the GCHQ

JK: No

JC: OK.

JK: Well, I can’t talk about what they do in their own country and with their own legislation. That’s a matter for them, although I have seen president Obama on TV, saying that what he does is, what the US do is legal. But if you’re asking us, “Do we in New Zealand go around the back door and ask our partners to do things for us that would be otherwise not legal for GCSB to do?”  The answer’s unequivocally, “No”.

JC: Will the, great! thank-you. Will the GCSB operation, once this legislation is passed, involve, or be connected to the collecting or harvesting of New Zealand’s metadata whether under warrant or not?

JK: Wha what

JC: Yes or no?

JK: No. Not in the way that you would say that. So my

JC; Potentially inadvertently?

JK: No what, it’s important that you understand what we are saying.

JC: Yep.

JK: The only ways that they can provide information of metadata, because under the law metadata’s treated the same as content, right? So there’s no differentiation in the law. So to go and look at someone’s email, is the same as collecting their email, right?  So under the law, the only way they can do that is providing assistance, and the only way they can do that is for those 3 agencies , [?ing] the SIS, of which they did 9 people per year over the last decade, right? OK, so there’s

JC: So why do you need, why do you need this legislation?

JK: Because

JC: Because on the one hand you’re standing saying we need it [JK talking at same time] because the because of terrorist, on the other hand you’re down playing it [?] a number of times.

JK: let me finish my last point. So OK, some people would say in cyber security because you have the protection where you can’t see the information, but you’re protecting – some people might say it’s metadata – but it’s not reading information, it’s not collecting the the detail.

JC: So you will be accessing that?

JK: No. What I’m saying is, we provide protection.

JC: OK

JK: like the Norton Antivirus. We do not go and [?]

JC: OK. Is the GCSB using, or does it have access to PRISM?

JK: Again, I don’t go into those individual points and the point here is, it doesn’t matter what they actually use.

JC: No, it does.

JK: Why?

JC: You are the minister. Because what we have seen, in the United States, contrary to what James Clapper told Congress, is the wholesale accessing of metadata – emails, phone records –all sorts

JK: OK

JC: Completely against the knowledge of the American people, under similar legislation

JK: OK.

JC: that you are drafting

JK: Well, for a start off you’re making a very bold statement, which is not correct.

JC: No, I’m stating fact.

JK: No you’re not.

JC: Am I wrong?

JK: Yes you’re wrong.

JC: What was wrong in that statement?  That the NSA was doing that?

JK: No, because you’re saying that we are proposing to do things which would be illegal.

JC: No, I’m not. I’m saying it took place in the United States.

JK: OK the onl, OK, I can’t talk about the US’s legislation. But under New Zealand legislation – to go back to the point, the only time they can look at people’s metadata and their information, in the context that you’re talking about, is when they have a warrant. There’s 9 cases. OK, so let’s give you this example: if GCSB this afternoon, were to decide they’re going to listen to every phone call, and read every txt message in New Zealand, do you know how many people that would take? A hundred and thirty thousand people, is the estimate they’ve given me, and cost 6.6 billion dollars. You are frightening people.

JC: No I’m not, Prime Minister.

JK: Yes you are.

JC: Are you telling me

JK: [?] directly and [?]  you are frightening people.

JC: No, I’m not

JK: You are.

JC: Prime Minister, ah. Will the XKeyscore. Am I making that up? Its abilities? Tempore [sp?] which the G ah, which the British are using? Am I making that up? PRISM, am I making that up?  The NSA activities: Am I making that up?

JK: You may as well read out what’s on a James Bond movie.  Look for goodness sake

JC: Yes or no? Does XKeyscore exist? Yes or no?

JK: I don’t answer those questions because they don’t

JC: I’m not asking, I’m not asking. I’m asking if it exists?

JK: Well, it may well exist overseas, but I don’t go into what our partners use or don’t use. What I’m saying to you is – it’s like saying, how did I get here? It doesn’t matter whether I – no, let me finish. It doesn’t matter if I got here in a bus, I came here in a taxi, or I came here in a crown car. What matters is I got here. It doesn’t matter what techniques GCSB use, or don’t use. What matters is it’s legal. If it’s legal, then what I’m telling you is, the only legal things they can do, is provide assistance – of which it’s about 9 people a year. And anything else they might do in cyber security would require a warrant, would not have access to content, and is essentially like a virus protection. That’s it.

JC: Prime Minister, thank-you for joining us. I’m sorry it’s taken you so long to get in here.

JK: I’m more than happy to come.  But the point is, you know, we’ve gotta have decent stuff to debate. We’ve been going through a process, I can’t come on your show until we go through the proper process going through. But what I can tell you, is the same thing I’d tell any New Zealander whose watching this show. They have absolutely nothing to be worried about. The security risks that New Zealanders face are real

JC: Prime Minister,

JK: But they have to be protected properly.

JC; The security risks New Zealanders face are real and that’s.

JK: Absolutely. And that’s what that law does. Protects them properly.

JC: I’d like to talk to you at a later stage about what those security risks are.

JK: Sure. Yeah. No problem

JC; Prime Minister thanks so much for joining us. Really appreciate your time. Lovely to have you in here with us.

JK: Nice to be on the show.

[JC finishes urging people to vote on their poll]

END TRANSCRIPT!

Well, if I knew how long it’s take to transcribe this interview, I’d probably never have started. And just when I thought Campbell was winding up the interview, Key just would not be quiet – has to have the last word, repeating over and over again his main spin lines –  like the guy bending your ear in the pub who won’t go away.

272 comments on “Key vs Campbell: the transcript”

  1. tracey 1

    Shearer has no chance in a debate when key has had enough grooming time.

    it makes no sense to me that conservative law society is wrong and key is right on statutory interpret

  2. Richard Down South 2

    Awesome summary…

    I cant believe Key compared GCSB to Nortons Anti Virus… Nortons is TERRIBLE…. well… maybe i can?

    • infused 2.1

      The consumer stuff is, because that’s their testbed for enterprise.

      Their enterprise stuff is excellent.

      • Hayden 2.1.1

        I don’t necessarily doubt it, but that’s always struck me as a stupid idea, given that at least some of the people who make purchasing decisions for enterprise will have had their first exposure to a product as a consumer.

        • infused 2.1.1.1

          Yeah, I found that statement amazing. I was told directly by Symantec.

          In his words “Home software is the beta versions of our enterprise products”

    • Yeah that’s a terrible comparison. Cybersecurity agencies have very little in common with antiviruses in specific, although I suppose in broad terms you could say they’re both intrusive and expensive useless things that are supposedly there to protect you. 😛

  3. tracey 3

    Point is he did well and might as well have finished with “nothing to see here”

    Greens labour anyone has to have 2 constant mantras…

    if only 9 people a year why rush it. Why the haste? No terror attacks on nz soil since rainbow warrior so why rush it prime minister or have you promised someone you will do it urgently

    we will repeal immediately then enquire and consult

    • Jackal 3.1

      The reason the bill is being rushed is because there is a chance that the other 88 New Zealand citizens who were illegally spied on by the GCSB might find out. The government would then face further court cases like the Kim Dotcom one. If the government can stall Dotcom’s case until the retrospective legislation is passed, there will be no ruling against the GCSB.

      Great post BTW Karol. It really makes Key look like a plonker when what he says is put down in black and white. All that Teflon glow doesn’t seem to transfer to print very well. Just out of interest, Campbell managed to get in approximately 800 words compared to Keys 1600. Still didn’t seem to answer any questions properly though.

  4. Tiger Mountain 4

    Key “lied his way into office and is still at it” no lesser authority than Helen Clark said to me at a Labour street gathering in Dominion Rd some time back. And she was correct. I am not a Labour member but knew her from many years in the broader labour movement around Auckland. And as the years go by her assessment is proven more conclusively.

    You can’t blame John Campbell for trying, precious few others outside the blogs are. Those that are need to keep chipping away though, the CT memos from HQ are not going to save the PM’s flabby backside for ever.

  5. Jimbob 5

    Your transcribing of the interview would have more credibility if you weren’t tarnishing it with other comments and saying things like “interrupting” when John key interrupts John Campbell, but failing to do the same for all the times John campbell interrupted Key.

    • karol 5.1

      They were interrupting each other. I’ve indicated at points where Campbell was talking over Key, -e.g. when he’s trying to protest in the middle of Key talking.

      But Key’s style is also to talk very fast, and not let interruptions stop his rolling lines of spin.

      • infused 5.1.1

        That’s a good way of spinning it yourself Karol. JC talks over everyone he interviews. Finally someone tells him to shut up and wait until he’s finished talked.

        That’s JC’s style I’m afraid.

        • DavidC 5.1.1.1

          You can only win an argument if you are doing the talking. If you are listening you have lost.

          • Molly 5.1.1.1.1

            ??? Well, that’s the problem isn’t it? JK was not going on the show to actually provide information – he was going on to ‘win’.

            Listening to alternative points of view can improve your knowledge, perhaps that’s why Key kept the monologue going.

            • felix 5.1.1.1.1.1

              Yes that’s what interests me about this.

              Key is deliberately trying to prevent us from knowing the facts, and a bunch of people posting here think that’s a good thing.

              Why do they not want the facts? And if that’s not the case, why do they cheer Key on for being good at concealing the facts?

              Why do they think being the best at not serving the public is a “win”?

              • Paul

                Well that says a lot about them

                • DavidC

                  That a Politician wants to win an argument? ummmmm…?

                  I am shocked.

                  • weka

                    That a politician wants to win an argument by lying as a means to reduce democracy in NZ.

                    fify.

                    • felix

                      Notice how not a single one of them is prepared to defend anything John Key said?

                    • blue leopard

                      “Yes that’s what interests me about this.

                      Key is deliberately trying to prevent us from knowing the facts, and a bunch of people posting here think that’s a good thing.

                      Why do they not want the facts? And if that’s not the case, why do they cheer Key on for being good at concealing the facts?

                      Why do they think being the best at not serving the public is a “win”?” ~ Felix

                      @ Felix
                      Really very well said, thanks Felix
                      You have just summed up exactly what is so very bizarre about people viewing Key’s efforts on Campbell’s programme as something positive.

              • infused

                We know the facts… It’s in the bill. The fact is, JC was wrong, on a number of points and got told.

                • McFlock

                  n a dozen or so comments on this topic, you haven’t mentioned a single point on which JC was wrong, or anything on which JK was correct.

                  Although, to be fair, technically key must have been correct on the legality of the KDC surveillance, given that he said “It was not illegal” and then said “Kim Dotcom was illegal under the old law”[…]. But I’m not sure that really counts, given theself-contradiction.

                  Again, nice transcript Karol, thanks.

                  • lprent

                    I’d noticed that as well. Do you think that infused even understand the issues at all?

                    See a classic instance here

                    He appears to show no real understanding once you brush past the weak “We all know what he was implying here…” insinuations. I have no idea what either Key or infused is trying to describe most of the time because they imply without being explicit. Perhaps that they are too gutless to explain what they mean because then the inherent stupidity in whatever they says will be lovingly dissected?

                    Like “…was trying to imply with NSA/Prism/International spying that the govt could/world use these networks to get around our laws.” in which infused does another insinuation that he doesn’t describe. Well I can’t see *anything* in the current bill to stop them. It would have been prohibited under the old act for NZ residents, but the new bill removed that along with the prohibition against using the clear legal restriction on GCSB on against spying on residents.

                    Also this sidestepping of such local prohibitions through other country partners is currently a issue running in both the US courts and the legislature about clear instances where it has happened. So how exactly does Key want to assure us that it won’t happen? Infused clearly doesn’t know – he doesn’t explain it…..

                    Just another fool who has had his nose shoved lovingly up John Key’s jockstrap for so long that his brain has atrophied too much. renders him incapable of explaining anything….

                    • McFlock

                      Do you think that infused even understand the issues at all?

                      if s/he does, I don’t think they care. Probably genuinely believes that the only people who need worry are internet pedos, bearded hippies, and fiendish lefties (in no particular order of deservingness, either), not good tory lickspittles like them.

                      Off to bed now – fortunately I’m just more tired than disgusted/angry.

                    • lprent []

                      Yeah. It isn’t like we haven’t seen precisely the same stuff before.

                      Doing database work. Looks like it is running ok. Might head bedwards and get up later and have a look to see if it is finished. Thank Jobs for getting logitech to produce illuminated keyboards

                  • Gosman

                    For supposedly intelligent people I’m surprised you haven’t picked up on John Key’s point re Kim Dotcom.

                    The point he made was the the breach of the act that John Key apologised to Kim Dotcom over is not being touched by the changes being nade to it. Hence it was illegal then and will still be illegal under the new law. As such his case can’t be used to point out flaws in the new law.

                    • lprent

                      I think that several people have mentioned it in this post’s comment. McFlock for one pointed out the discrepancy between that and two previous Key statements which were in conflict. So which John Key are we to believe – because clearly more than one of him is lying their arse off on that topic.

                      Another one that I picked up on was that Key appeared to think that metadata didn’t need to get collected all the time to be useful. That there was nothing in the bill that said it would not get collected as a matter of course and made accessible when required, and that he was foolishly conflating warrants to use information with the process of collecting information. He could have cleared it up in a second by saying the legislation explicitly forbade the holding of metadata unless it was part of an active warrant. But he seemed to think that it wasn’t required – probably because he was too confused about what his departments are already doing?

                      If the PM is so confused about the effect of this legislation, then I’m not surprised that you’re similarly mistaken. Or this may be because you aren’t intelligent enough to figure out the difference between a legal document and a posturing bullshitter?

                    • Gosman

                      You are mistaken if you think I am for this legislative change or are 100 percent supportive of the PM over this. I just don’t think this is the end of liberal democracy in NZ as some on the left are trying (and failing miserably to do) to make out.

                    • blue leopard

                      @Gosman,

                      If profoundly important principles of ‘liberal democracy’ keep getting chipped away at and allowed to continue.

                      If such phenomenon is not viewed with the contempt that it requires to be in order to be stopped in its tracks, how do you draw the conclusion that ‘liberal democracy’ is not being endangered?

  6. Bill 6

    Karol, you’re a star!

    I watched the interview and was struck by the difference between content and presentation. Key presented well and certainly worked the cuddly little teddy bear over. But then, I think that’s something to be borne in mind; that Campbell’s a cuddly little ‘feel good’ interviewer – not an adversarial scare monkey like a Paxman of old.

    Shame that Campbell got irked and didn’t have the presence of mind to just sit back and smirk/scoff at the content of Key’s rather confident presentation. Anyways. All I meant to do was convey my thanks for going to the effort of transcribing the interview.

    • karol 6.1

      Yes, it struck me as a triumph of style over content, which is why I wanted to focus on the claims being made. Thanks, Bill.

      • weka 6.1.1

        “Karol, you’re a star!”

        +1

        Awesome work Karol.

        I only watched the first 3 minutes or so and then had to turn it off or risk being ill at that smarmy fuck of a PM lying to the country, but I also thought Campbell was letting his frustration get the better of him.

      • Richard Christie 6.1.2

        Yes, it struck me as a triumph of style over content,

        That’s exactly what it was. Almost nobody listening, or reading ,who isn’t intimate with the Bill’s framework, will have been enlightened by Key’s performance. He was all over the place, none of it coherent.

        All Key did was project confidence in his own mission, nothing else. As an act of clearing matters up (as he claimed his aim to be) he was an abject failure.

        Performance of a consummate confidence trickster.

    • blue leopard 6.2

      Key only presented well if you didn’t noticed how scared and desperate he looked.

      How he didn’t actually address the issue that people are concerned about, how he used distraction and ad hominem type attacks (Campbell trying to scare people). He played the game of talking long and slowly about details that didn’t really add to informing us; I.e. using up interview time whilst adding very little to the discussion. Yes, he somewhat ‘took over’ the interview, yet why did he need to do this? Because he had nothing to say, no good arguments to justify this bill.

      He wasted a good opportunity to let us know what the hell is going on with this bill.

      He came across as a textor-crosby puppet boy who doesn’t give a damn about NZers rights and interests.

      Nicky Hagar got the word right: Hollowman.

    • miked999 6.3

      I feel the same when I read the actual lyrics of a song I may have really liked. Seeing them written down without the context and accompanying music or video shows them in a completely different light.

  7. One Anonymous Knucklehead 7

    Pity Campbell didn’t challenge the “nine per year” line. How many since 2008?

    • karol 7.1

      Yes – good point. Because if you look at the transcript, Key says that they stopped spying on the 88 people when they realised there was a difficulty with the law. So there were 88 people (which then becomes deflated to 9) in the last few months.

      • Tiger Mountain 7.1.1

        Heh, lets name ’em then. Underwear sniffing is one thing, but the rest of us are not entitled to know whose was sniffed or for what purpose, let alone others in the distribution chanel–NSA?
        There are real world implications from all this for people such as TPPA opponents to cite one group.

        Muldoon did not shy off naming ’81 Springbok tour protesters with alleged leftist affiliations or the ‘gang of 32’ SUP–Socialist Unity Party members that the NZ Herald then ran on the front page.

        The NZSIS Act 1969 and amendment Act 1977, and Privacy Act 1993 however usually allow the local snoops that hold files on New Zealanders to avoid naming people such as their still living ‘sources’ aka snitches and informants.

        • mickysavage 7.1.1.1

          A few of us asked if we were on the list but the GCSB refused to say if we were or not. And the part of the Kitteridge Report that dealt with legal issues was suppressed. So we are having a debate about something and we do not know the detail or how we can limit the state’s power so that it can do what it has to but not what it wants to.

          This sucks …

          • Colonial Viper 7.1.1.1.1

            funny thats exactly the same scenario which held back the likes of Senator Wyden in the USA, up until the time Edward Snowden released his documents.

            Its exactly the same situation restraining the founder of the Lavabits secure email service. He can’t even discuss with his lawyer what he knows about the requests the US Government has made of him and the implications for his (former) business and (former) clients.

            Its total shit.

            I don’t remember where the quote is from – but secrecy is anathema to democracy.

        • Anne 7.1.1.2

          @ Tiger Mountain:
          Let me assure you these snitches/informants can sometimes knowingly make false claims against an individual. They are motivated by malice or jealousy (or both) and yet they remain “protected” for years. A totally unjust state of affairs.

    • Bill 7.2

      Yeah well, that was one of the thoughts i had. The misleading average was arrived at by Key pulling a number out of his arse (10) and dividing the 88 known illegal cases by that number. Eevn if Campbell had pointed out the bullshit methodology that Key was using….

      Same with the preposterous claim that protecting IRD systems was akin to having an anti-virus when the concern is individuals (not institutions) being subjected to the beady eyes of GCSB.

      Might have asked what was to prevent GCSB or whoever accessing info from keyscore and prism rather that lamely asking if they existed. But hey…retrospect is a smart arse thing and as I said above, Campbell simply isn’t an adversarial interviewer. (Heart’s in the right place, but that fcking cuddly niceness…)

    • DavidC 7.3

      It would be great to know what the pre/post ’08 split is.
      That way we know how many Helen did.

      • geoff 7.3.1

        What does it matter how many Helen did? Isn’t the point that this occurred the only thing that matters?
        You sound like Key in the interview: “Yeah but Helen Clark did that too!!” Pathetic.
        You seem to think that if Labour tried to introduce this law that standardistas would be supporting it. I can assure you that is not the case and not only that, if this law gets passed and Greens/Labour get in at the next election then I’ll put money on it that many here would be loudly complaining if they didn’t throw the law changes out.

  8. McFlock 8

    Another stirling article – nice work 🙂

  9. infused 9

    You sure do take a different view on what happened.

    [lprent: My guess that you did this as a reply from a mobile. The reply functionality isn’t working correctly there, so you should reference who you are answering – at least until I get over the flu and find time to fix the bug. ]

    • felix 9.1

      “You sure do take a different view on what happened.”

      Eh? The transcript looks accurate to me.

      Or do you mean you get a different impression when you focus on what he actually said?

  10. mickysavage 10

    Thanks Karol

    Good work. I agree it was an impressive interview.

    The confidence shown by Key was extreme and his simplification of the issues was really impressive.

    But misplaced.

    Key does not know what he is talking about. But many in the country will not believe this is the case.

    • Sosoo 10.1

      Key doesn’t care. His job was to present himself as confident in his own side and dismissive of opponents. Content doesn’t really matter. Key’s job was to go one and treat Campbell with contempt and condescension in order to please his base, and it’s worked given today’s accounts.

      John Key is not your enemy. It’s the people who vote for him.

    • Puddleglum 10.2

      Key certainly seemed ill-informed about the Bill and his own Committee’s recommended changes to the Bill.

      For example, he twice mentioned that the GCSB, under the new Bill, could only provide advice and assistance to three agencies (SIS, Defence Force, Police). But that’s not correct and his Committee actually did one of its few major recommended changes to the fourth entity to expand it (see the downloadable post-Select Committee Bill here):

      (1) This function of the Bureau is to co-operate with, and provide advice and assistance to, the following for the purpose of facilitating the performance of their functions:
      “(a) the New Zealand Police; and
      “(b) the New Zealand Defence Force; and
      “(c) the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service; and
      (d) any department (within the meaning of the Public Finance Act 1989) or part of any department or to a department but only in relation to a specified function or service performed or provided by the department specified for the purposes of this section by the Governor-General by Order in Council made on the recommendation of the Minister
      .”

      That is, the GCSB is empowered to provide advice and assistance to any department or part of a department so long as there is an Order in Council to that effect.

      We can argue over whether or not Key was ‘perceived’ as competent and on top of the information. But it is objectively clear that his account was not competent or a demonstration of the mastery of the details.

  11. Nate 11

    The Prime Minister owned John Campbell, just as he will own David Shearer in election debates.

    Prime Minister, 10; Scaremonger, nil.

    [lprent: Looks like simple trolling. Simple solution – a ban for a week. ]

    • Hayden 11.1

      Scaremonger, nil.

      When did John Campbell mention Al Qaeda?

    • DavidC 11.2

      Looked like a statement in fact to me.

      [lprent: It just looked like an idiot jerking off to me. You may like splattered sperm dribbled out of an idiot just like that comment. I find it untidy and rather sticky and rather pointless and lacking life as soon as it was ejeculated and hit the page. Point to *anything* of worth in that comment and I’ll show you the stupidity in its decomposing ancestral DNA. Live bacteria carry more useful information.

      Since I’m one of the site cleaners, and you merely pass through helping to splatter the walls with your poorly aimed habits, then your opinion is quite irrelevant. Read the policy. ]

      [lprent: Just as an aside. I’m sure that infused might detect some insinuations that I’m making here. But I’m sure he can’t lay his suspicions out in public for fear that they may be examined in detail. Maybe someone needs to give him a books on bodily processes and the effects of excessive prudery on the libido. 😈 ]

  12. SHG (not Colonial Viper) 12

    When Key spanked Cullen, it was just because of media training.

    When Key spanked Clark, it was just because of media training.

    When Key spanked Goff, it was just because of media training.

    When Key spanked Campbell, it was just because of media training.

    Key’s opponents should either

    a) get some media training, because that shit obviously works; or

    b) wake up to the fact that the spankings they’re getting from Key aren’t just because of media training

    • Winston Smith 12.1

      No, the left should keep up with the whole underestimating Keys intelligences and savvy because aprt from ensuring a National victory its quite amusing to see how deluded they can be

    • You_Fool 12.2

      I am not sure that Key spanked any of those people…

      Clark & Cullen – were on a hiding to nothing just on the grounds that they were the “tired old faces” – it is what happens in NZ after 3 terms – to get a fourth term is always something special. Maybe it is my memory fading, but I can’t remember any truly curb-stomp wins of Key over Clark – i always thought they were close run battles in the debates, the problem was that Clark needed to curb-stomp key if labour ever wanted a fourth term, and key is slick enough to avoid that.

      Goff – some issues at public debates but still came within a seat of being PM, not really a spanking there.

      Cambell – I thought last night that JC won the exchange – he managed to make Key talk himself in circles and JC still landed the killer blows.

      • Winston Smith 12.2.1

        Absolutely, Keys a light-weight and Shearer will have no problems showing how inept Key really is in the election debates

        • felix 12.2.1.1

          This site is such a hotbed of Shearer supporters I’m sure your biting sarcasm will have hit nerves all over the place.

          /not

      • Bob 12.2.2

        What an appropriate moniker You_Fool “I thought last night that JC won the exchange “…….here is what commentators had to say on Twitter:

        @JohnJCampbell Raving is not interviewing, John. A graceless and embarrassing performance. This from your greatest fan. Brian

        — Brian Edwards (@DrBrianEdwards) August 14, 2013

        @toby_etc @damianchristie all I saw was a Prime Minister who was on fire. Have been through the entire Clark years and not seen such –

        — wallacechapman (@wallacelchapman) August 14, 2013

        @wallacelchapman @damianchristie yup formidable, close to flawless

        — Toby Manhire (@toby_etc) August 14, 2013

        @toby_etc @damianchristie It worked. The answers were substantively good, not just showy good. Except for the Norton AV analogy.

        — Keith Ng (@keith_ng) August 14, 2013

        This guy on Campbell Live is a PM who knows exactly what he’s doing. #GCSB

        — Lew (@LewSOS) August 14, 2013

        Nailed it. Still not voting for him. But he was good. #johnkey

        — The Ruminator (@RuminatorNZ) August 14, 2013

        The “OMG-were-you-watching-the-same-interview-he-was-talking-so-much-shit” response is partly why we keep losing elections #CampbellvsKey

        — Morgan Godfery (@MorganGodfery) August 14, 2013

        @MorganGodfery The left persistently underestimates Key. There’s lots to not like, but stupid he ain’t

        — Brenda Pilott (@PSAsecretary) August 14, 2013

        @mokai77 It was a masterclass in political communication and strategy. Few interviewers or politicians can hold a candle to Key.

        — Morgan Godfery (@MorganGodfery) August 14, 2013

    • Blue 12.3

      Key could teach a master class in bullshit artistry. Talking until the Eskimos believe they really need to buy ice is Key’s specialty – his natural ability has been finely honed through years in the international financial world. He wouldn’t have needed much media training by the time he came to politics.

      Good on JC for having a go, but anyone who underestimates Key gets taught a lesson.

      • geoff 12.3.1

        Yeah the lesson is, if you get into a fight with a (rightwing) pig, be prepared to get covered in shit.

      • Grantous 12.3.2

        Campbell’s pretty much into bullshit too, if it suits his agenda.

        One example – he has his reporters running around the country conducting a ‘poll’ on NZders attitudes to spying and the GCSB bill.

        Except its not a poll, its a petition…..if its even that. It has less statistical rigour than if the numbers were pulled out of hat by a blind person.

        It suits Campbell to call it a poll because he can spin greater credibility around this exercise. It bullshit to use your phrase.

        [lprent: Please remember your handle. Whenever you change it deliberately or accidently, then a moderator has to exert themselves to release the new handle – after checking it against the current list of the banned. Eventually we dispose of the problem. So please take care of your name. Consider this a gentle warning. ]

    • Chooky 12.4

      @ SHG…agreed it is not just a question of media training

      …some people you cant argue or debate with because they are not operating honestly ….winning is all they care about…… they do not care about dealing with the issues honestly and for the good of all.

      ….however it is not just a question of giving someone a spanking either……most people I think will see through the way Key operates

      What Labour needs is a leader with integrity and the smarts who can take Key head- on… honestly…. and show him up …..and win!….that is David Cunliffe

      • SHG (not Colonial Viper) 12.4.1

        “….however it is not just a question of giving someone a spanking either……most people I think will see through the way Key operates”

        Nah, I think most people will go “wow, that John Key sure seems charming and intelligent and that person he’s arguing with is getting so flustered and rude and angry… that John Key, what a nice man, I think I’ll vote for him”

        • Chooky 12.4.1.1

          @ SHG …well you are welcome….personally i am looking forward to John Key getting a spanking!

        • felix 12.4.1.2

          I don’t think anyone watched that interview thought Key came across as a “nice man”.

          Most of the people cheering him on seem to be saying precisely the opposite.

    • weka 12.5

      Key’s opponents should either

      a) get some media training, because that shit obviously works; or

      b) wake up to the fact that the spankings they’re getting from Key aren’t just because of media training

      Problem is, most people still have ethics. We’re not talking about media training in the sense of how to present one’s case credibly and how to respond well to challenges to that in a way that looks good. We’re talking about training in professional level lying and spin that is designed to deceive the nation and further an agenda that is stripping democracy from the people. We’re still a fair way from Nazi Germany, but try applying your argument that Key’s ‘media training’ is valid to Hitler and see how it holds up.

      (and no, there is no need to incorrectly invoke Godwin, but if someone wants to come up with another comparison it would be apprecitated)

  13. Wayne 13

    Hi Karol,

    An impressive amount of work. One of the problems of transcripts of televsion interviews is that every little “hum” and “ha” gets the same emphasis as a complete sentence. Nuance, and tone gets lost.

    As viewers, we tend to tune little missteps out. Now because I am in Singapore I have not seen the interview (but I will do so online), but all reports indicate it went well for John Key.

    Now I clearly would not expect him to convince Standard commenters, anymore than I do. Though I do hope that readers here do see I do take a considered approach, even though I have a different view on things to many here, but then I always like debate.

    However on TV (as oppossed to the blogs) the PM reaches middle NZ, not just the partisans. The test for the PM will be how they reacted. Did he properly cover the issues that they have read about in the newspaper and seen reported on TV and radio. Are there safeguards, etc. I suspect the PM is on strong ground when he can point to Court of Appeal judges being involved in the process. NZers intuitively know that such people are not in the pocket of the PM.

    And one of the things that successful Prime Ministers can do is read what midde NZ thinks is fair. In her prime Helen Clark could do that at an impressive level, and thus far John Key has done that as well, now for 5 years. It is no point Standardnistas attacking middle NZers, better to understand them, since that is where elections are won.

    • Anne 13.1

      Did he properly cover the issues that they have read about in the newspaper and seen reported on TV and radio?

      If you call lying, cheating, misrepresenting, playing fast and loose with the matter in hand, talking over the top of his interviewer non-stop, slyly defaming well placed individuals (Helen Clark, Geoffrey Palmer, Bruce Ferguson to name just three) as properly covering the issues then… yes he did.

    • LJ 13.2

      Considered thoughtful reflection, unlike most here. Whether you like the message or not, the reality is Campbell got spanked. That’s what advocacy journalism deserves. Don’t become the story

      Sean Plunket beat up on JC this morning was hilarious. And not a tweet today from the man himself.

      Meanwhile Key is back to running the country – juts what middle NZ expects

      • felix 13.2.1

        That’s not how you spell “ruining”.

        • the pigman 13.2.1.1

          Such a negative nelly, at least give him credit for getting “juts” right.

      • mickysavage 13.2.2

        I prefer that an interview is not a gladiatorial contest with a winner and a loser. I prefer that it is an event that casts light on a matter of importance. Key performed “well” but cast no light on the subject. The interview was therefore a failure.

        • irascible 13.2.2.1

          Totally agree. Key’s argument is that the GCSB is the govt designed anti-virus program is shear sophistry designed to allow him to not have to substantiate his case for infringing the civil liberties of the people.

          • infused 13.2.2.1.1

            It is true though. I have an email from the GCSB about this very thing before all of this exploded.

          • lprent 13.2.2.1.2

            Key’s argument is that the GCSB is the govt designed anti-virus program is shear sheer sophistry..

            Not to mention that he should be done for copyright violation. I’m sure that one of the leaders who invented that torrid analogy to cover ubiquitous surveillance will want it back. Who does own the intellectual property for the Stasi?

    • You_Fool 13.3

      As a side point, my understanding is that the appeal court is not involved, but that the oversight is from an appointed retired judge, appointed by the PM – so the appointment can be swayed – or picked to be a mate.

      If judicial oversight is important, why not have the warrants and oversight come straight from the appeal/supreme court?

      • Wayne 13.3.1

        You_Fool

        I do realise they are retired judges, but my point about impartiality still holds, and would be seen as such by the viewers. Sir Bruce Robertson is a highly regarded judge and was a former President of the Law Commission.

        As for the broader point about who should grant the warrants. Prime Ministers are involved because the issues invariably relate to national security. Often no NZ law has been broken (or it would be difficult to bring a prosecution), as in NZers training in Yemen, or people in NZ funding the LTTE, as occurred some years ago. But it is essential to know the networks and overseas contacts that these people have. Remember the LTTE bombed people in countries other than Sri Lanka.

        So SIS and GCSB warrants are not criminal matters like normal crime where no national security issues are at stake. The pattern is to have retired judges essentially review the warrants granted by the PM. The numbers of warrants also get reported to parliament. The effect of both of these “checks” is to prevent abuses of power. The Bill strengthens the review process.

        • Anne 13.3.1.1

          Stop trying to defend this piece of legislation Wayne. You know as well as we do that there should be no legislation until we’ve had a full and independent inquiry. That is normal practice in controversial situations. It is vitally important that NZ gets this Bill right given the massive technological advances in intelligence gathering. There is a fine line between gathering intelligence for security purposes (most people recognise this as an essential part of good governance) and snooping on the lives of innocent people simply because they may hold a different political viewpoint – or something similar. The consequences for individuals who have been subjected to irrational and illicit snooping practices can be extremely damaging, and the fallout from it can last a long time.

          You also know as well as we do that the PM’s ‘activity’ in this area is really all about covering up for the mind bogglingly inept f—k-up that was the Dotcom affair. Unfortunately for Key, Kim Dotcom clearly has evidence on him which he will use next year during his extradition hearing, so all the covering up in the world will do no more than buy him a bit more time.

          • leftbutnotdeluded 13.3.1.1.1

            FFS this blind faith by so many on the left on a German multi millionaire attention whore really does bend my faith in the left activist base.

            • Colonial Viper 13.3.1.1.1.1

              What blind faith? Kim Dotcom said he was illegally spied on, and it turned out to be the case. The GCSB illegally spied on him. Please keep up.

        • Murray Olsen 13.3.1.2

          The fact that it’s a retired judge is almost irrelevant. The fact that it’s a retired judge picked by Key is highly relevant. Anyone involved with the justice system knows what a judge’s record is, how likely they are to believe police lies, how much weight they put on civil liberties, and so on. I doubt very much if a judge who fits into the category of “those civil liberty people” will be chosen, even though that’s arguably exactly the type we would need.

      • DavidC 13.3.2

        I would pick its because its a near full time job and they dont want anyone distracted by other work. You cant exactly pull a Judge out of a 6 week trial to go and swot up on a security risk beforr signing off (or refusing to) on a warrant can you?

    • Wayne 13.4

      I have now seen the interview, and yes John Key was impressive. He had clear points which he got across in a calm and considered manner.

      As I thought the transcript does not show that, because it provides no context. It also gives the same emphasis to all the little interruptions etc, which in many cases you can barely hear since the viewers attention is to whoever has “the floor” at the relevant moment.

      And having read the Bill in detail, including the proposed amendments, I think the PM does a pretty good job of explaining the main points. Sir Bruce and Sir Geoffrey were largely focused on process. Expected from Sir Geoffrey, but Sir Bruce needs reminding that virtually all 88 incidents occurred on his watch.

      Mind you I would also note that Sir Bruce was a careful custodian of the powers of GCSB. I know many here think that GCSB was out of control, but you can surely see that Sir Bruce did not indulge in some completely over the top programme of generally surveilling NZers. You had to be in a pretty specific category for that to occur (and no, Penny Bright, Sir Bruce was not worried about your non payment of rates or your “anti corruption” mission). But people training in Yemen would have been of interest.

      Anne, now I know you are not a fan of the PM, but where was he “lying, cheating, misrepresenting, playing fast and loose”. In fact he was careful ,measured and stuck to the facts. A TV interview is not a 40 minute lecture to a law class. You have to use analogies like Norton etc.

      And as for interrupting JC or talking over the top, well in my experience with him (actual), you have to do that because he interrupts so much or sends you down some tangential aspect of the issue. But he is always entertaining and enthusiastic, which TV demands.

      • Anne 13.4.1

        You have to use analogies like Norton etc.

        You’ve answered your own question.

        You’re hopelessly deluded Wayne. Thought you might overcome it once you got out of the Beehive.

      • Pascal's bookie 13.4.2

        Analogies shouldn’t be deceptive Wayne. That’s not to say they can’t be effective if they are deceptive of course, it just depends on what you are trying to effect.

        As you say, there isn;t time to get into details in an i/v. Which is why deceptive analogies can be so effective.

        When Key talked about the GCB needing 140,000 people to analyse everyone in NZ’ calls, or whatever his precise formulation was, that was deceptive and false.

        The NSA employs around that number and collects and analyses data from much of the world. The primary analysis, (particularly of metadata, but also of content), is done by computers. It is grossly misleading to say that the GCSB would need 140K employees to do what people are concerned about. To get to his point, he misrepresented what people’s fears are (made it sound like it was just about agents literally listening to phone calls in real time), and used that misrepresentation for his reductio of 140K agents needed. Which is false, as much of the analysis would be done by algorithms. Key’s argument is like arguing that google must employ millions of people to answer the questions people type into the query box.

        Others have said today that he was wrong about saying the GCSB wouldn’t be able to look at content when doing ‘assistance’ work, and that his assurances are not reflected in the bill, even though they could be, if he wanted to:

        The clauses around the definition of communications and metadata have not changed since the 2003 GCSB Act. The Kitteridge Report revealed that the GCSB’s interpretation of this Act was that they could collect metadata without a warrant, she recommended that the law be changed to clarify this. This has not been done in the new bill. John Key’s assertions are not worth much when compared to the actual documented behaviour of the GCSB.

        More to the point, the GCSB won’t have to. The ability for the GCSB to capture data for the purposes of cybersecurity (purpose 8A in the bill) is so wide that just a couple of access authorisations (signed by the PM and CSW) could give them access to everyone’s mobile and internet traffic.

        You might say “Well, the PM says that they won’t be doing this” to which I respond with “If they don’t want to do that, let’s remove the ability to do it from the bill.”

        I note that section 14 against spying on New Zealanders is still there – but only applies to information captured for intelligence work (purpose 8B), not cybersecurity (8A).

        http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-fluency-ease-of-manner-and-norton/?p=291951#post291951

        The claims about the moral worth of any particular individuals being appointed completely miss the point, frankly. This is about the process, not a particular instance of the process.

      • geoff 13.4.3

        Yeah keep ignoring the big picture Wayne. Just like Key does. Xkeyscore? Prism?
        What is NZ’s involvement in that?

        You completely ignore the global context that the Snowden revelations created and you do so because you know that the National party is in the pocket of the US and John Key is trying to hide that from us.

  14. tricledrown 14

    David Cunliffe

    [lprent: Looks like simple trolling. Simple solution – a ban for a week. ]

  15. Anne 15

    I emailed Campbell Live earlier today. To my surprise I received a reply from John Campbell in person. Not only did he thank me for my message but the tone of the words he used were open and natural. He showed what appeared to me to be sincere appreciation.

    I think he’s been having a hard time of it today which is unfair. He’s not responsible for a lying, corrupt, psychopathic prime minister.

    • Tiger Mountain 15.1

      Agree Anne JC gave it a good go, he is not the problem, but what are you going to do against a sociopath taking into account the obvious? my partner and I expressed in our home how we would have reacted to the lying, rug wearing, flabby assed excuse for a 21st century PM.

    • LJ 15.2

      But he is responsible for a crap interview

    • tc 15.3

      True but he was outplayed at a game he should have been better prepared for and had a plan B and C up his sleeve. After goading him to come on the show and all the vox pop’s filling up airtime about the bill JK came out and delivered in true hollowman style.

      JC is responsible for getting answers and exerting control it is his show. A smile from JC with a ‘you still haven’t answered my question ‘ repeat question’ again and again and focus on why Palmer/Salmond/Law society are not experts till JK goes all shruggy or plays the snapper card.

      JK came prepared and performed as his backers demand whereas JC brought knives to a gunfight.

      • Anne 15.3.1

        Interesting to note Campbell Live was not advised until 4pm yesterday afternoon that John Key was going to front up at 7pm. Playing games right to the end. Roll over Muldoon, Nixon et al, you’ve been outclassed in the snake in the grass routine.

  16. Tamati 16

    Game, Set, Match, Key

    [lprent: Looks like simple trolling. Simple solution – a ban for a week. ]

    • Anne 16.1

      Really? Are you clairvoyant? I think not. We’ve only had one game thus far. Few more to go, then there’s the set and finally the match late next year.

      • SHG (not Colonial Viper) 16.1.1

        If the election were to be held tomorrow and today’s John Key debated today’s David Shearer on television tonight, National would win in a landslide.

        But the election is not being held tomorrow. And anything can happen between now and when it is.

      • Tamati 16.1.2

        Yes, in terms of the interview with JC and the whole GCSB debate to be frank.

        Time for David Shearer to start focusing on housing.

    • Tiger Mountain 16.2

      ShonKey’s minders may be worried when he actually turns up at TV3. The sooner he scarpers off back to Hawaii with his bankster mates (on stolen land no less, as some locals have expressed) the better for this country. It is amazing the torrent of tory shit one appearance from your dear leader has provoked given his hundreds of previous media no shows during his term.

      What a flabby, rug wearing wimp, happier to hang out with woman bashers–Vietchie and racists–Deaker, than debate real issues in even a semi genuine manner with Campbell.

    • Tamati 16.3

      Harsh!

      Sorry, that’s just how I saw it. I probably only post once or twice a week so no harm done.

      [lprent: I’m like that – I like debate rather than simple assertions. It always pays to say *why* you see something a particular way. I generally don’t ban those who explain. They’re adding to debate. But simple one liners that sound like slogans don’t. If I see too many responding to the post like that, then I start discouraging the behaviour. ]

  17. Blue 17

    The “hurt” is strong in the left today. Key owned Campbell and everyone here knows it. The irony of calling Key a master of spin is palpable with the attempts by posters here to blame Key for he crime of being prepared. A bit sad that Campbell came across as desperate, never a good look.

    • karol 17.1

      Campbell was prepared. He had answers, but, as Blue says. Key talked louder, and was master of diversion.

      for instance:

      1) Key on polling: 49% remains the same int heir latest poll. But that is just total Nat support – not Key’s personal rating, and doesn’t say anything about the criticisms Key may have got in the poll. i was interested that the Nats have polls every Monday & Tuesday.

      2) Saying that Key needed to rush the bill because they’d stopped spying on the 88, and

      People with links to terrorist activities; people who may have been involved in either providing information that could have been used for weapons of mass destruction.

      That’s old spin, and Campbell was rightly skeptical.

      3) Pitching people’s criticisms as being about them being afraid of being spied on, when only a minority get spied upon – ignores the whole 5 Eyes metadata capability; implies that the 88 (deflated to 9 people) are terrorists developing weapons of mass destruction.

      It was hard to get criticisms in edgeways. And, even if only 9 people are spied upon – no-one knows who those are. It could be the likes of Jon Stephenson, being critical of the government. It acts as a dampener on democracy and critical debate – panopticon effect.

      Another issue is that the latest GCSB Bill is extended the GCSB powers into “economic security”.

      • Blue 17.1.1

        Being prepared does not mean “louder” it just means being prepared Karol. Perhaps Shearer could try it. You know that Campbell’s modus operadi is to shout down disagreement and allow only half answers before he interrupts. He was hoisted….and lost.

      • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 17.1.2

        It could only be John Stephenson if someone had managed to convince Paul Neazor he was a threat. I think that unlikely.

  18. The_Watcher 18

    John Key is full of shit, that much was obvious last night. The only reason he “won” the interview was because he talked louder. John Campbell should have used Key’s tactic and cut him off instead of letting him carry on dancing around the questions.

    • leftbutnotdeluded 18.1

      No the reason Key won the interview was he was both better prepared and vastly superior in a debate with a journalist who should be better at a job he is paid more than the salary of the PM for.

  19. emergency mike 19

    A few days ago Key was arrogantly dismissing the possibility of appearing on Campbell Live. Then suddenly here he is. I wonder if it could have anything to do with the snapper video going viral? Damage control.

    I thought Key put on a confident and prepared performance. I can see why the RWNJs are claiming victory. But his arguments were empty. Norton anti-virus? It doesn’t matter if I came by car or coach? What? All I heard from Key was “Trust me”. No thanks ‘Slippery John’ ‘The Smiling Assassin’.

    Note that what he refused to talk about was the link with the US, which is embroiled in massive spying on the public revelations left and right.

    I highly recomend this link. It’s an interview with the owner of an email encryption service that Edward Snowden was using who shut down his whole operation rather than comply with what the NSA was demanding of him. He’s under a gag order about what that was, under threat of jail.

    “There’s information that I can’t even share with my lawyer, let alone with the American public. So if we’re talking about secrecy, you know, it’s really been taken to the extreme, and I think it’s really being used by the current administration to cover up tactics that they may be ashamed of,” he said.

    “If you knew what I know about e-mail, you might not use it either.”

  20. Tinshed 20

    For most people, this interview will confirm their existing biases and opinions, one way or the other. Fair enough. But what about those might be in the middle or on the fence on this issue? What they would have seen is that John Key was in control and John Campbell wasn’t. They would have seen JK argue his case without notes and JC appear frustrated and at times flustered. I would argue that for most disinterested viewers, JK spanked JC. Many here disagree. But perception is what matters. Heck, I am old enough to remember Bill Rowling and the total mis-match between his manner on TV (perception) versus the reality of the guy. And we know how that ended. This interview will have confirmed in many people’s minds that JK is the preferred PM and a formidable debater. Those who believe JK is liar will believe that even more so after watching this interview. But I’m afraid that the people who matter most, i.e. those in the middle or swinging voters, JK convincingly won the day.

    • emergency mike 20.1

      “Those who believe JK is liar will believe that even more so after watching this interview.”

      Key: “I probably have half a dozen meetings a day with public”

      Yep.

    • halfcrown 20.2

      “But I’m afraid that the people who matter most, i.e. those in the middle or swinging voters,”

      Hey sunshine what gives you the fucking right to speak for me. I could be one of your perceived “middle” people but what makes you think I matter “most” than some unfortunates who are in a less fortunate position.

  21. chris73 21

    In the immortal words of CGW John Key “smashed ’em bro!”

    John Campbell might want to consider the old adage of be careful what you wish for…he wanted JK on his show, called him out and JK turned up and gave Campbell a taste of his own medicine

    Oh dear another trump card of the left nullified by JK…

    Cullen
    Clark
    Goff
    Campbell

    Whos next? Oh right Shearer…

    Be interesting to see if Campbell mentions his sore bottom tonight (from the previous nights spanking :))

  22. dumrse 22

    Campbell’s barrow has lost its wheels.

    [lprent: Simple trolling. Simple solution – a ban for a week. ]

  23. North 23

    I do not look forward to a time when the ShonKey Python suckers who so crowingly write on this site will be regarded in the same light as those from history who ignored, ignored, ignored. Essentially in service variously of personal vanity, cargo-cultism, and greed.

    There is one worthy man who can ensure in 2014 that such a time never arrives. We all know his name.

  24. chrissy 24

    It seems that in order to beat key in a face to face you would have to lower yourself to his particularly low level of what you might call debate. This in itself would be hard for any intelligent articulate debater to do as key has no obstacles in his so called debates because he is morally bankrupt and has no scruples in the methods he uses. I am really sad now to see people subjected to keys particular, one might say peculiar brand of debating. Watching him last night make an absolute tit of himself I was mortified that he is our pm. Today the cries are all “who can beat key!” It’s all very gladiatorial. We should be more worried about the fact that key will never front up and give clear, concise, constructive reasoning for his side of the debate. When are we going to ask of key to actually answer questions that are asked of him as an adult and not as some badly performing, semi intelligent comedian. His MO is to attack the person as this invariably brings about the perfectly human response to defend themselves which leaves them wide open to more personal attacks which changes the whole direction of the encounter. The sad thing about key is that he truly believes everything he reads about himself which feeds his inherently cruel and nasty nature. One thing that stands out with him is that he has absolutely no good manners at all. He uses the fact that other people are brought up with good manners as they will not override him in his shouting them down.
    It is time a real New Zealander was put back in charge, not some little puppet that will spout and enable anything to happen in NZ if his strings are pulled.

    • chris73 24.1

      lol

    • emergency mike 24.2

      “This in itself would be hard for any intelligent articulate debater to do as key has no obstacles in his so called debates because he is morally bankrupt and has no scruples in the methods he uses”

      Good observation Chrissy.

      Dr Robert Hare notes that it’s very difficult to win an argument with a pychopath. They are natural debaters, and they have in instinctive grasp of the skillful usage of distraction, too much information and fallacies which take time and congitive effort to counter which are often both unavailable in the heat of battle.

      Plus they have another big advantage, they can always just lie or make something up. There is usually not time in an argument to go and check ‘facts’ that are thrown up. By the time someone subsequently does, the argument is long finished, and the observer is left with the impression that the psychopath made a point that the other couldn’t answer.

    • emergency mike 24.3

      “This in itself would be hard for any intelligent articulate debater to do as key has no obstacles in his so called debates because he is morally bankrupt and has no scruples in the methods he uses”

      Good observation Chrissy.

      Dr Robert Hare notes that it’s very difficult to win an argument with a pychopath. They are natural debaters, and they have in instinctive grasp of the skillful usage of distraction, too much information and fallacies which take time and congitive effort to counter which are often both unavailable in the heat of battle.

      Plus they have another big advantage, they can always just lie or make something up. There is usually not time in an argument to go and check ‘facts’ that are thrown up. By the time someone subsequently does, the argument is long finished, and the observer is left with the impression that the psychopath made a point that the other couldn’t answer.

      • leftbutnotdeluded 24.3.1

        Oh FFS don’t you realise that calling key a psychopath is tantamount to waving the white flag.

        Just accept that Campbell was an unmitigated fucking disaster last night – for someone who earns over 500k per annum his effort at interviewing and holding Key to account was a fucking disgrace.

        • felix 24.3.1.1

          Or we could, you know, talk about whatever we like. Is that ok with you?

          • leftbutnotdeluded 24.3.1.1.1

            Yeah go for it………….have a crank in the corner if you want.

            • felix 24.3.1.1.1.1

              I get that you’re angry.

              But no-one here is under any obligation to “just accept” any of your opinions, no matter how strongly you hold them.

            • emergency mike 24.3.1.1.1.2

              I don’t think felix gets a big say on who is allowed to comment here. This is more of an anyone can say what they like if they back it up with at least a semi-coherent argument kind of place.

              You’ll see that there are lots of different opinions here. You might disagree with some of them. But the ol’ “stop saying that,” probably won’t go down so well.

              There are even concern tr0lls about. So how did you come up with that handle leftbutnotdeluded? Do tell.

              • lprent

                Makes me laugh when I see concern trolls (or anyone) coming in with a job lot of sticky labels saying “Labour”, “Green”, “Treehugger”, “Unionist”, “Bleeding Heart”, “Socialist”, Commie”, “Neolib” or whatever and expecting everyone to conform to their simplistic ideas of how people here should act or think.

                Most of the time you’d think that they imbued it about the time that they were reading “See Spot run” – probably accurate. It is also amusing watching how commenters here seem to take it in succession to slice them from all of their various directions – and virtually only ever poke holes in their almost religious presumptions. Intellectual simplistic labelling bigotry doesn’t really equip them to deal with people who think kiddie rules are just so amusing to torture with.

                No-one can be adequately described by any single label after they have left their childhood (ie past their twenties 😈 ) and everyone gets more and more complex until they start hitting their second childhood.

                Personally I like to see verbal blood lapping against the walls of a post and people desperately trying to defend their strange and rigid bigotries from people who have already seen those arguments a few thousand times before… They probably invented some of them when they were younger. Education of the thickest – always nice to see.

                Educate the perpetrators fast and painfully enough that they don’t try it again. Then move on to arguing about new material….

              • felix

                “I don’t think felix gets a big say on who is allowed to comment here”

                lolz! A cat can dream…

        • Tiger Mountain 24.3.1.2

          ShonKey exhibits many of the key, heh, indicators of a “sociopath” big difference. What about the space every nite for show upon show when John Campbell has said “the Prime Minister was invited but declined”. Says more than he did last nite, it is known as manipulation and manufacturing consent.

        • emergency mike 24.3.1.3

          First, I didn’t call Key a psychopath. (Not in this comment anyway.) I was just observing that he does have a lot in common with their style of arguing. Which certainly doesn’t by itself make him one, but there it is.

          However I have been calling John Key a sociopath, (subtle difference, some say there is none), on this blog for a long, long time before the Campbell interview.

          Second, while I’d agree that Key ‘won’ this round, I do think ‘unmitigated fucking disaster’ isn’t fair. Having said that, I think Campbell underestimated his opponent, and should have been better prepared with questions that got the heart of the real issues.

          Someone on here said that Key only confirmed he was coming on 3 hours before the show aired. He was probably getting his lines straight all day while Campbell had to scramble.

    • Murray Olsen 24.4

      Well stated, Chrissy. Any interviewer is at a disadvantage with someone like Key because he is a morally bankrupt psychopath. If they call him that, they lose. If they let him get away with his behaviour, they lose. He is a cancer on the political landscape.

      However, political wars are not won in television interviews. The opposition have a number of leaders who can attack Key effectively. Hone will call it as he sees it, the Green leadership are strong on facts and policy, and even Winnie can score hits. And Labour has Shearer. Oops.

  25. jaymam 25

    I think Campbell should have asked for a yes or no answer: “Is it acceptable for the government to spy on the phone calls or texts or emails ot opposition MPs such as Winston Peters?” And of investigative journalists?

  26. felix 26

    The response from the right is interesting, painting Key as some sort of gladiator fighting off a series of opponents.

    I kind of know what they mean, but not being a hero-worshipper I thought the interview showed that Key is very good at not answering.

    Why is that considered a “win”? And why is that a desirable quality in a PM?

    He didn’t do anything else apart from not answer the questions. If you read the transcript, he didn’t impart any new information, and he didn’t show that any of Campbell’s information was wrong.

    I mean these as serious questions if any righties would like to explain their feelings.

    • leftbutnotdeluded 26.1

      As a serious leftie I’m more concerned at the delusion of those on our side about what actually happened last night and what our plan is to counteract Key in the media and in parliament otherwise we’re going to be well fucked going into the next election although at least that means my party can become the lead opposition and labour can fuck right off.

      • tinfoilhat 26.1.1

        +1

      • felix 26.1.2

        Hi leftbutnotdeluded.

        Perhaps you should re-read my comment after you’ve calmed down. I’m trying to spark exactly the sort of conversation you claim to want to have.

        • infused 26.1.2.1

          He answered the questions buddy, which is why JC had a bloody fit on air. It wasn’t the answers he wanted.

          • felix 26.1.2.1.1

            Could you demonstrate by pointing to one of the questions and his answer please?

  27. ak 27

    Have a bit of pity for the cold little husk, this sort of “win” will be the only cold cheer to enter the horror behind those sad, defeated eyes. From the days before the media truth blanket:

    One of Key’s own MPs thinks there is another, perhaps less ingratiating, element also propelling him toward the 9th floor of the Beehive. Speaking on condition of anonymity the MP says Key seems to harbour a deep instinct to be the most important guy in the room. Generally now that he is leader, he is exactly that. But if an outsider comes in who might challenge that status, Key is said to almost physically transform to take up the challenge.

    And of course he “won” in the eyes of his brutish sycophants. This is the undisputed champion of the tory contest: the product of a lifetime’s training in the most vicious arena of all. Lies? Obfuscation? Meaningless verbal inanity? Merely some of the modern tools of the trade for any professional thug.

    One insider says Key has a pet saying of “whatever it takes” – it is his indication to a caucus member that he just wants something to be done, find a way to do it.

    It’s the tools we don’t know about – yet – that will finish this sad wee bully.

    • Colonial Viper 27.1

      One insider says Key has a pet saying of “whatever it takes” – it is his indication to a caucus member that he just wants something to be done, find a way to do it.

      You’ve got to admire the corporate singlemindedness. The Left is ‘left’ running around in confused circles, not knowing which way to turn, in a maze of Key’s framing.

    • DavidC 27.2

      ak.
      Awesome comment. That behaviour of kneecapping possible chalengers is exactly why Labout is in the shit its in now. Helen could not and would not let any future leader grow into a real leader.
      Key will win in ’14 and retire soon after with multiple future leaders in the waiting.

  28. Paul 28

    I watched the programme last night and in no way thought John Key ‘won’ the interview. Indeed no one I have spoken to has came to that conclusion. But then I’m not a member of the corporate media and commentariat who have a vested interest in spinning such stories.

    Yes… Key span and span and avoided answering a lot of questions, but he came over as dishonest, , bullying, evasive and arrogant. Well, I guess if that is the style some people like, such as the diehard neoliberals who come to this site to obstruct discussion, then that says a lot about them as people.

    Personally, I found the content and style of people such as Palmer, Salmond and Ferguson far more convincing and trustworthy.

    • Chooky 28.2

      +1

    • infused 28.3

      Again, what the hell were you watching? Shortland street on the other channel?

      He answered the questions. A lot of the questions were the same questions asked a different way, or simply stupid questions.

      JC’s problem was he was trying to bait key, every, single, time. JK didn’t fall for it.

      • Paul 28.3.1

        Obviously not what you were watching.
        But, as you are a regular repeater of the propaganda spun by this government, why would you stop now?

      • felix 28.3.2

        infused, you said more or less the same thing earlier and I asked if you could demonstrate by pointing to one of the questions he answered.

        I note that you still haven’t done so, despite the transcript being available at the top of this very page.

        • Paul 28.3.2.1

          He won’t. He’s here to bait and develop the meme.

        • infused 28.3.2.2

          I’ve been pre-occupied tonight.

          I’ve already stated, the NSA/Prism questions at the end. Stupid and irrelevant. He only went there because he ran out of material.

          Here:

          JK: OK Me right

          JC: So you and a person that you have appointed sign the warrant.

          JK: OK. Let’s take the first step back. [karol: a sign of a Key diversion when he is under pressure] Sir John Jeffreys was actually appointed by Helen Clark. His just retiring.

          JC: Absolutely.

          First bait, which key quickly nailed. We all know what he was implying here, key called him on it.

          Karols comments are silly. He wasn’t under pressure, he was about to take JC to task.

          Just like at the end, JC was trying to imply with NSA/Prism/International spying that the govt could/world use these networks to get around our laws.

          He saw that coming a mile away.

          • felix 28.3.2.2.1

            Sorry infused, I don’t see how that makes the point you think it does at all.

            What is it that we “all know” he was implying? Campbell pointed out that Key would be signing the warrants and appointing the other person who signs the warrants. Key confirmed that this is true.

            Is that really your example? Campbell asserts a fact and Key confirms it?

            Wow, I see why you’re so impressed now.

  29. TightyRighty 29

    I watched the interview with a lefty mate. I’m a fan of JK, you all know this. I thought he came across well, mostly. He dominated JC, in my view. My lefty mate (MLM) thought he bullied and lied his way through. Cue argument. Unfortunately, nothing of substance was debated. Rightly or wrongly, this was the tone of the interview too. Nothing of substance was debated. But JK came across as more measured and prepared than JC. Therefore JK won. If JC had stuck to his guns rather than trying potshot JC, the outcome may have been very different.

    • felix 29.1

      “Unfortunately, nothing of substance was debated. Rightly or wrongly, this was the tone of the interview too. Nothing of substance was debated.”

      Pretty much. Not for lack of trying, but I didn’t get the impression Key was there to discuss substance.

      What do you mean by “potshot”? Is there an example in the transcript you can point me to?

    • Sable 29.2

      I think the point you need to consider is whether you want some government gremlin snooping through your hard drive or collecting your metadata. If that’s OK with you then you win, if not you and everyone else in this country looses.

      Its not about personalities its about policy.

  30. Paul 30

    John Campbell just gave a big serve to the rest of the media for their failure to cover the story.
    Good on him; also reitirated how long they’ve been running the story and how many times Key dodged the issue.

    • North 30.1

      Yeah Campbell’s OK. Potty Gower and DungCan Gooner aren’t worth shit compared to him. No soul either of them. Tinsel. Until, having licked arse sufficiently reliably, Mr Weird Fellow and Mr Rugby Boy respectively end up REALLY part of the story, if only vicariously. As someone’s chief-of-staff or something. Hurry the day. Potty and Judith and DungCan and Gerry. Good fit ? On looks alone, surely ?

  31. Colonial Viper 31

    JC needed a dozen pithy quotes from the Law Commission, from the other experts, from Labour, and needed to hold Key to a solid response on each one. Letting Key run his fictional narrative doesn’t work; you have to break the flow of the narrative with nitty gritty (but important) detail, whether about substance or process.

    Re: the 88 – “were any of those 88 picked either MPs, commercial or news media targets Prime Minister” that kind of stuff, and knowing that Key will not answer, followed up by

    “would you agree Prime Minister that it would be completely inappropriate, illegal in fact, for the GCSB to spy on a NZ Member of Parliament, or member of the NZ news media?”

    • Paul 31.1

      Kim Hill showed how this corporate puppet can be exposed.

      • Sable 31.1.1

        Paul you and I can see this but can the public at large? Especially when they are fed a diet of lies and half truths by the majority of the mainstream media in this country.

    • DavidC 31.2

      JK would not be able to answer that first question obviously. He dosent know how many of the people that Helen spied upon were media.

      • Colonial Viper 31.2.1

        JK knows all the names, he’s seen the reports on the illegal spying.

        • DavidC 31.2.1.1

          Citation for that?

          I would doubt that JK would have wanted to know that stuff unless it involved an ongoing threat. Its not as tho he dosent have enough to do without extra bedtime reading.

          • Sable 31.2.1.1.1

            Really, what threat and where’s your evidence? I’m going to start laughing if you rabbit on about terrorist bogeymen…..

            • DavidC 31.2.1.1.1.1

              Sable, huh?

              • Sable

                Glad you can read……

              • Colonial Viper

                If Key hasn’t seen the reports on who was illegally spied upon, it means that he is being negligent of his Intelligence portfolio and not taking the duty of Ministerial oversight seriously.

                So which is it mate? Has Key seen the list of names, or is he negligent? You decide.

                • DavidC

                  Why would he go back over work that has already been done and has no relevance to the future?
                  As I said, I would be very surprised if he read thru the files of “50” people spied upon by Helen unless they are an ongoinmg threat.

                  Do you have any proof that Key knew any of the names of those “50” people ?

      • Anne 31.2.2

        You gullible fool DavidC but you’re not the only one.

        Why do you think he put his old school mate into the top GCSB job? So that he misses nothing – when, where, how and most importantly WHO…

        • DavidC 31.2.2.1

          Its not uncommon for a PM to install someone they are comfortable with. Helen did it in ’99 with the very left leaning Jefferies and Key actually kept him on for 4 or 5 years.

          • felix 31.2.2.1.1

            Ah yes I remember that, it was quite similar. Helen had known Jefferies since their school days, was very close to his brother, and their mothers were best friends.

            More recently they had kept in touch, dining together several times, although Helen flat out lied and changed her story when asked about that.

            She also went outside of the usual process and discarded all other applicants, hand-picking her lifelong friend ahead of several more highly qualified people (she lied and changed her story when asked about that too).

            Ok, now back in reality-land…

          • Colonial Viper 31.2.2.1.2

            the PM chose an old school mate who is a corporate lackey who has no intel experience or credibility.

            Whether you are “comfortable” with that is beside the point.

    • Tiger Mountain 31.3

      Agree, CV one would have been tempted to go hard out on the dirty filthy US representative that masquerades as NZ Prime Minister. Or at least some of us would, but Campbell needs to keep his earner and fair enough when he is compared to the likes of the simpering John Armstrong etc.

      The tory tea baggers here are getting tiresome though. It is one miserly interview among hundreds dodged. Woohoo.

      • DavidC 31.3.1

        Yeah Tiger it was just one interview. But remind me again when last did a Labour leader put on such a show? ’03? “04?

        and that is the problem you have.

        • Colonial Viper 31.3.1.1

          No one is denying the problem mate.

          • DavidC 31.3.1.1.1

            well look at the bans handed out on this thread, it looks at tho lprent may think denial is a river in Africa 🙂

            • Colonial Viper 31.3.1.1.1.1

              The Labour Leader is not up to a TV debate with John Key. Everyone knows it. No one denies it.

              lprent gets to ban whomever he likes, he’s the Sysop.

            • wtl 31.3.1.1.1.2

              The reason for those bans was obvious – the commenters did nothing but say “My team won, your team lost, nyah nyah!” which is simply pointless trolling. And childish to boot.

            • weka 31.3.1.1.1.3

              If Lynn was banning on the basis of content and denying right wing nuttery a voice, how come he hasn’t banned you?

              • DavidC

                Good question weka. If lprent wants to shut down all debate why not just ban everyone from the other side. Then if would be just like Redalert or Frogblog, A blog of sycophantic navel gazing.

                Ah and weka, I am still waiting on a reply to my question.. How safe is safe if its not 100%? I will allow you to discount alien lazers from your calculation.

                [lprent: what “debate”? They were all top level comments that made an assertion without explanation. It is a trolling behavior.

                “Other side”? You are quite unobservant or too lazy to read. I did four mods with 3 bans. Tricledrown is a distinctly left, one I have no idea about, and two right – one of which was a friendly warning..

                If you want to make assertions about my behavior, then it pays to get them right because I really can’t be bothered explaining to often to lazy fools – especially ones who whjo seem to prefer to lie. See the section in the policy about wasting moderator time. ]

                • Colonial Viper

                  Hey keep taking the piss out of lprent, do us all a favour.

                • weka

                  “Ah and weka, I am still waiting on a reply to my question.. How safe is safe if its not 100%? I will allow you to discount alien lazers from your calculation.”

                  But I asked first, multiple times. Put up some evidence to back up your assertions and I will engage again. And please take the conversation back to that thread.

            • Sable 31.3.1.1.1.4

              Maybe Iprents just tired of sarcasm taking the place of logical argument David….No point in barking if you can’t bite old son….

        • Sable 31.3.1.2

          So all you want are bread and circus’s David? No substance, no worthwhile, logically justifiable and lets not forget democratic laws? Not hard to see how a shallow creature like Keys might appeal to you.

  32. Sable 32

    Personally I’m not convinced Key’s is an especially good public speaker. Clarke ate him alive in the debates which had the effect of making him look like a sympathetic figure given how sick and tired people were of her all too familiar arrogance.

    In the same way the public will tire of Keys hubris. Sadly it may take another 3 years for this to happen. The question then becomes will the next government repeal Keys ugly spy law? Based on Labours response to the Green’s initiative to clean up our rivers I don’t think they will but then I’m hoping by then they will be the minority party to the Greens majority.

    • chris73 32.1

      “Clarke ate him alive in the debates which had the effect of making him look like a sympathetic figure given how sick and tired people were of her all too familiar arrogance.”

      – Wow just…wow

  33. wtl 33

    I really don’t see the whole point of all these comments about the interview. One side saying Key pwned Campbell and will pwn Labour/Shearer/whatever. The other side saying, no Key looked arrogant. Or, Key did perform well and is terrifying because he will outperformed Shearer next year.

    Is any of this really new? We already knew Key does well in the media. We already that Key will probably outperform Shearer in a debate. We already know that Key is arrogant (but so are many politicians).

    As far as I can see it, all this analysis of the interview is serving to distract from the main points of the whole issue:

    1) Does the new legislation allow the GCSB to spy on New Zealanders?
    Yes, see the analysis at Tech Liberty.

    2) If so, should New Zealanders be concerned about these new powers given to the GCSB?
    In my opinion, yes. And nothing Key said in the interview was particular reassuring in that regard – he simply dismissed any concern about the issuing of warrants, did not properly deal with the issue of metadata and ignored the possibility that warrantless cybersecurity powers in the new act could be use to gain incidental intelligence. He also dismissed the wide ranging concerns of many individuals and agencies as simply ‘wrong’.

    To be honest, I really don’t know why those who support Key are so keen to ignore these issues (Sure, Key is a good politician and you might like the way he is running the country. But are you really that confident that either some GCSB bureaucrats or future government will not misuse these new powers?)

    • infused 33.1

      Yes, and

      “The only difference between those granted for spying on foreigners and those for spying on New Zealanders, is that the ones targeting New Zealanders have to be signed off by the Commissioner of Security Warrants as well as the Prime Minister. The Commissioner is appointed by the Prime Minister.”

      Which is what Key said on the show. Campbell and tech are trying to imply that key is going to buy off the commissioner.

      Not ignoring the issue, the issue is very clear.

      • grumpy 33.1.1

        He was also Clark’s commissioner. Maybe the left know something we don’t?

      • felix 33.1.2

        “Campbell and tech are trying to imply that key is going to buy off the commissioner.”

        No-one’s implying that. (Yeah I know Key tried to say they were but let’s stay in reality-land, eh?) .

        Key can appoint whoever he likes to the position. That’s not an implication, that’s a fact. And that alone is concerning enough without whatever else he’s making up about payoffs.

      • wtl 33.1.3

        Yes, and you have ignored the other issues raised regarding the cybersecurity powers and metadata.

        Which is what Key said on the show. Campbell and tech are trying to imply that key is going to buy off the commissioner.

        And again you make it all about Key, when I said this:

        But are you really that confident that either some GCSB bureaucrats or future government will not misuse these new powers?

        It is perfectly reasonable to be dubious of this issue even if we know that Key is the Best Prime Minister Ever (TM) who is always true and just. After all, we can’t be sure a future Prime Minister won’t abuse their power to spy on hardworking NZ taxpayers. Maybe one of those from that dodgy and corrupt Labour Party? Or what if one of those evil Greens ever got in power? And all they would need to do is appoint an activist leftist judge to get their way!

        While that last point clearly contains a lot of hyperbole – it does serve to highlight the fact that the proposed legislation may give too much power to the Prime Minister.

  34. Chaslands 34

    Campbell was vanquished….get used to it. Perhaps those of the left ought start grooming Shearer for a decent thumping too. I suggest Campbell has done trainee interviewers a favour by demonstrating how not to conduct an interview. Campbell ought learn (probably far too late now,) that he isn’t the news, merely a conduit.

    • Sable 34.1

      Putting Campbell aside for a moment tell me how long has the spy law saga been playing out? Quite some time now and its not going away in spite Keys transparent distractions in the form of fish and child abusers.

      If Keys was really that effective why is this still an issue? All sounds like Tory wishful thinking to me….

    • Colonial Viper 34.2

      Bullshit.

      We need our journalists to ask hard questions, and to clearly lay out agendas, untruths and misuses of power.

      Campbell ought learn (probably far too late now,) that he isn’t the news, merely a conduit.

      That’s what most of the MSM is these days, a pipe for corporate PR.

    • Tom 34.3

      Campbell was ambushed, being given one or two hours notice by the PMs office, and Key was very prepped .. which is interesting for a number of reasons.

      GCHQ is part of the Echelon/FiveEyes(FVEY)/UKUSA/BRUSA agreement and it is probable that the other parties have been watching the scandal unfold with increasing disquiet – starting with Key’s irregular appointment of Fletcher. The last thing they would want is to get diverted by the smallest member of the alliance while dealing more pressing problems abroad.

      Key’s demeanour, preparation, and circumstances of the interview suggest that someone has had a quiet chat with Key who did not seem (to this outside observer) to be a happy man.

  35. North 35

    Campbell Live Thursday night – ShonKey Python – XKeyWhore !

    While pledging a fidelity to New Zealanders underwritten by the fine values of the NZ National Party……….

  36. infused 36

    JC needs to stop jumping all over the place. He got so flustered and just jumped from point to point, trying to stick stupid shit on him like NSA etc…

  37. joe90 37

    Thanks for taking the time Karol, much appreciated.

  38. big bruv 38

    I have just watched the Campbell show. I could not believe how much it was being talked up as a win for Key. I had assumed that it might have been exaggerated.

    Well, man was I wrong!

    Key totally destroyed Campbell, Key showed Campbell to be nothing more than a left wing hack and the very worst type of chardonnay socialist.

    Key is a bit left wing for my liking but I have to give him points for the way he destroyed Campbell with nothing more than the truth.

    I am pretty sure that will be the beginning of the end for Comrade Campbell, he cannot recover from such an embarrassing hiding like that.

  39. BrucetheMoose 39

    In time, Key will be seen as the biggest fraud in New Zealand’s history. Unfortunately not right now. In the meanwhile, here’s something for all those Snapper lovers.

    Crispy skin snapper with caper and lemon salsa
    Ingredients:
    Snapper fillets, skin on
    Butter
    2 small tomatoes, finely chopped
    1 shallot or small red onion, finely chopped
    2 tbs of finely chopped capers
    Small handful of parsley
    1 lemon, juice and zest
    Olive oil

    Score the fillets lightly in a criss-cross direction without cutting to deeply then fry, skin side down, in the butter halfway before turning the fillets and finishing on the other side.
    Combine all the other ingredients in a bowl and season with salt and pepper.
    Place snapper on a serving plate with the salsa either placed on the fish or next to it. Crusty bread goes really well with this.

  40. big bruv 40

    “In time, Key will be seen as the biggest fraud in New Zealand’s history”

    No chance Bruce. That title will always be fought out between Clark and Peters.

    • felix 40.1

      Just as it is with his role-model Muldoon, young people will find it hard to believe that he was actually pretty popular for a while.

    • Greywarbler 40.2

      big bruv
      You speak with the confident authority of a god – you put me in mind of the Corinthians quote
      2 For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

      Comparing Clark and Peters who both have achieved good things for NZ, to Key who is achieving advantages for himself and his Cosa Nostra, shows a very cloudy vision on your part. One day you may reach enlightenment – but oh Lord not yet.

      • big bruv 40.2.1

        That is hilarious.

        Clark and Peters were part of the most corrupt government this nation has ever seen yet you somehow seem to be blinded by stupid ideology.

        Clark achieved nothing other than purchasing herself a job at the UN with my money. Peters has achieved even less.

        • One Anonymous Knucklehead 40.2.1.1

          It’s pathetic Bruv, this relentless crying wolf of yours. Suffused with hate, completely unbalanced. Frothing at the mouth over Peters and Clark in a Parliament that yields up scum like Capill and Garrett. Sad but true.

    • BrucetheMoose 40.3

      Give him more time

    • One Anonymous Knucklehead 40.4

      No, Big Bruv, the biggest fraud in New Zealand history will always be a toss-up between Graham Capill and David Garret.

  41. North 41

    The National Party disses the shit out of Muldoon now. Poor guy’s only use now is to provide ShonKey Python with a false political provenance……….Rob’s Mob wah wah wah………thus concealing that he was imported here to do everything he’s done.

  42. Suitably Clueless 42

    All I can say is that the wingnuts are out in force on this topic. As they generally do when they are on the wrong side of the debate. He is wrong on this GCSB bill, and showed it in a major way last night. The experts (and they are experts) are in agreement that it is unnecessary to rush through this legislation in light of supposed threats. In saying that, Campbell did not acquit himself as well as I would have liked but Key was not being a very good interviewee.

    • karol 42.1

      Campbell is not a very combative interviewer. It’s also been a while since he last really interviewed key.

      Also, John Key does not like to be beaten or challenged. he is extremely competitive. He came out swinging last night, because Key Campbell has been making in-roads into Key’s credibility. When it looks like he might be on the losing end, key can be ruthless. And note, also, in this interview, he’s very clear about his facts – none of the memory lapses he is prone to.

      Campbell tried to ask some hard & straightforward questions, but Key just obfuscated – it’s all in the confidence with which its done. He was especially twisty on metadata.

      JK: The only ways that they can provide information of metadata, because under the law metadata’s treated the same as content, right? So there’s no differentiation in the law. So to go and look at someone’s email, is the same as collecting their email, right? So under the law, the only way they can do that is providing assistance, and the only way they can do that is for those 3 agencies , [?ing] the SIS, of which they did 9 people per year over the last decade, right? OK, so there’s

      J[…]
      JK: let me finish my last point. So OK, some people would say in cyber security because you have the protection where you can’t see the information, but you’re protecting – some people might say it’s metadata – but it’s not reading information, it’s not collecting the the detail.
      […]
      But under New Zealand legislation – to go back to the point, the only time they can look at people’s metadata and their information, in the context that you’re talking about, is when they have a warrant. There’s 9 cases. OK, so let’s give you this example: if GCSB this afternoon, were to decide they’re going to listen to every phone call, and read every txt message in New Zealand, do you know how many people that would take? A hundred and thirty thousand people, is the estimate they’ve given me, and cost 6.6 billion dollars. You are frightening people.

      And, why would people give Key such an estimate? To throw into an interview exactly as he’s done here.

      • Suitably Clueless 42.1.1

        Oh yeah, he was a snake in the grass, that’s for sure. It is his MO, and I really don’t know how you can combat that, rather than just ignore him, which I think would be the worst thing for him. Yeah, plus it is a very complex topic, not for your average punter, which is why a majority of the wingnuts are not addressing the content, just the delivery, or who ‘won.’

      • Greywarbler 42.1.2

        karol
        What did you mean ‘He came out swinging last night, because Key has been making in-roads into Key’s credibility.’ Was that Campbell has been….?

      • jaymam 42.1.3

        “A hundred and thirty thousand people” is absolute rubbish, because of course they will just put whatever they can find into a database for years and analyse it with computers.

      • chrissy 42.1.4

        @ karol
        key uses such mangled language that you stop trying to get any understanding of what he is trying to say (usually nothing) after the first sentence or so. Personally I think there should be sub-titles on any of keys *interviews* so we can get a translation as he goes along. I noted that the only thing in the transcript that he was certain of is that everybody is wrong! Everybody! Not him God forbid. Thank you for the transcript, it certainly laid key bare. I find that if I have to listen to him my brain hurts. May Chen on 9-noon once said (pretty sure it was her) that she turns the volume down and just watches key. Tried it and it is fascinating how revealing it is,you can pretty much pick up every ummmm, mistruth just watching the facial contortions.

    • infused 42.2

      Not out in force. I think the left thought this would be their play to finally nail key on this, and it backfired. Big time.

      • Paul 42.2.1

        Simple question.
        Why do you support the GCSB Bill?

        • Paul 42.2.1.1

          No answer?
          Ok so you’re here simply to discuss how great John Key is and not discuss the GCSB issues.
          Play the man, not the ball.
          Style, not substance.

      • karol 42.2.2

        It’s not over til it’s over.

        One of the reasons I wanted to do… and finish the transcript (even though it turned out to eat up a lot of my time) is that Key made some emphatic statements. A TV/video interview is over quickly, and people remember the impact of the personalities. The actual words said tend to drift off into the ethernet. Unlike typed words, spoken key words online, fly under the google capture radar.

        Key said, for instance, that spying on Dotcom was illegal because the police made a mistake in telling the GCSB that he was a foreigner. I thought the GCSB must have known he was a resident.

        Key’s waffling about metadata and antiviruses really don’t answer the concerns people have about the surveillance technologies – the ones like Prism & Xkeystroke, that Campbell put to Key.

        • Tim 42.2.2.1

          “The actual words said tend to drift off into the ethernet.”
          … dunno why, but I’m interested/slighlty amused by that – i.e. especially the ‘net’ on the end of ether. Only because that’s exactly what’s happening using complex sniffers – we only used to use them on local point to point lines to diagnose problems.
          Now, everything is captured.
          I’d love to meet the seriously misguided individual(s) that wrote Xkeyscore et al. I ‘spose they saw a bizness opportunity.
          There will be ways of fucking it all up of course, and there’ll no doubt be many looking into it.
          Even I’ve wondered – various protocol encapsulations possibly. Something to consider maybe in my dotage.

      • felix 42.2.3

        “I think the left thought this would be their play to finally nail key on this”

        Eh? This was an interview with the PM. “The left” wasn’t represented.

        I just realised, you lot have been “scoring” this as if it were a debate. FFS is that what an interview is to you people? Jesus that’s twisted.

        • happynz 42.2.3.1

          Yup. The way people are going on it may be forgivable if some people were under the impression that John Campbell was standing for election or sumpin’.

          It was a bleeding interview for crying out loud! How in the name of the flying spaghetti monster (pbuh) does someone win an interview?

      • lprent 42.2.4

        I think the left thought this would be their play to finally nail key on this…

        Huh? As I understand it, John Key’s office only said that he would go on the show at 4pm or so, and the show played at what? 7pm.

        I think that you expect too much of the “left”. Getting their expectations up in 3 hours seems rather ummm overconfident of you. I usually think it takes at least 3 weeks, maybe even 3 months…

        But it appears that a day was sufficient for the nutters like yourself to start frothing.. Does having no particular brain activity help with the rabid impressions?

  43. vto 43

    hitler was equally charismatic

    • BrucetheMoose 43.1

      And so was Mussolini, Col. Gadhafi, Stalin, Saddam Hussein, etc. etc. A perceived appealing personality doesn’t mean they are ideal leaders.

      Did you know that snapper are carnivores. Small snapper feed mainly on small crustaceans and worms. Larger snapper eat fish and larger, harder-bodied animals such as sea eggs (kina), crabs and shellfish.
      Just thought everybody might be interested, being a nation more interested in snapper than our personal security.

      • Colonial Viper 43.1.1

        Gadhafi had his issues, but you will note that while he had a socialist society, free education and healthcare system, women in universities, etc. now Libya is fucked and the corporations and mercernaries run the show (and the oil fields).

        Not to mention Al Qaeda is having a field day.

        • Blue 43.1.1.1

          “Gadaffi had his issues”, the prize for understatement of the year goes to CV.

          • Colonial Viper 43.1.1.1.1

            Well, Libya is worse off without him, having descended into a kind of deliberate mercernary corporate anarchy.

  44. If it is true that John Key was ‘impressive’ in this interview then that is unfortunate for John Key.

    After all, he has therefore just wasted an ‘impressive’ performance on the GCSB issue. As we know, what everyone is really concerned about is snapper.

    By your own reckoning, you have put too much effort into the wrong issue, Mr Key.

    • felix 44.1

      Very sharp observation as usual Pg.

      I suppose we won’t be hearing any more from Key about the GCSB, or spying, or Kim.com seeing as it’s all a non-issue that no-one cares about.

  45. r0b 45

    Magnificent effort Karol – thanks…

    • karol 45.2

      Thanks. A transcript can be extremely useful.

      However, watching a video of Key at his spinning best more than once is also instructive.

      One thing I noticed while transcribing, but didn’t have the time to stop and consider: there’s a couple of points where Key’s voice hits a high note – almost a falsetto. It’d be interesting to look at it more closely, taking note of the context, to see what it shows – Key’s anxiety?

      It’s also very good of Key to give such an instructive performance this far out from an election. Opposition strategists need to look at it carefully. Key will be formidable in 2014 election debates.

      • Bladelores 45.2.1

        Another consideration is Keys drawing in of air through the teeth and tongue, which makes a slurping sound. This sound is detectable when a truth is about to be spun into a half truth or a straight out untruth is about to wash over us all.

  46. Jenny 46

    Generally right wing commentator Audrey Young, against her own conservative instincts exposes the true nature of metadata spying.

    Despite a glowing report of John Key’s Performance, Young damningly exposes her hero John Key as an apologist and, a liar covering up for the dangerous and intrusive nature of this sort of blanket spying. In the final sentence Young criticises Key for not being open about the true potential for metadata spying to intrude into people’s private lives. And tells him he should have been more open about this.

    Key might have scored 10 except for the fact he failed to pull up John Campbell on an error – the issue of section 14, which in the present law says the GCSB cannot spy on New Zealanders or permanent residents…..

    Key’s own error on the bill was in suggesting that, having acquired a warrant to intercept communications under its cyber-security function, the GCSB would not be allowed to look at the content. There’s no such provision in the bill. If Key had front-footed the bill from the start, fewer people would have had concerns.

    Audrey Young NZ Herald 5:30 AM Thursday Aug 15, 2013

    • karol 46.1

      And now, this morning, the NZH reports that Key says the GCSB Bill will include restrictions on access to the content of communications. I’m not sure how that will be possible?

      In a dramatic twist on the GCSB bill, John Key now says he will restrict warrants granted to the spy agency so it can’t initially look at the content of New Zealanders’ communications in carrying out its cyber-security function.
      […]
      How it would work:

      Cyber security today

      Under the present law, if the GCSB detected an intrusion into the IRD cyber system, it could track its source if it were overseas, or if it were from the computer of a foreigner in NZ but not if it were from the computer of a Kiwi.

      Cyber security tomorrow

      Under the proposed law, if the GCSB detected an intrusion into the IRD cyber system it could track its source whether abroad, without a warrant, or in NZ with a warrant, which John Key says would not access the communications’ content. If the Kiwi’s computer was suspected as being an unwitting host of a remote attacker abroad, the GCSB would alert the Kiwi to get permission to access his or her computer content. If a person was suspected of being involved in the attack, the GCSB would get a warrant to look at the content.

      And doesn’t that mean Key is admitting that what he said on Wednesday night was incorrect?

      • geoff 46.1.1

        Nice point karol, The slipperiness and story changing from Key knows no bounds.
        Gee, maybe there should be an inquiry into it huh? 😉
        Of course this is typical Key who only responds to threats to his popularity, just like his last minute Campbell appearance after the snapper gaff.

        Great work on the transcript, btw.

      • felix 46.1.2

        “And doesn’t that mean Key is admitting that what he said on Wednesday night was incorrect?”

        Of course. But that was then and this is now, you gotta be in the moment to join the Key fan club.

  47. Bladelores 47

    While I am concerned about spy networks using data for… well who knows, we need to tackle the agencies and how they do their spying. Im equally as concerned that people have invested so much of themselves online. The internet is far more important than a way of keeping up with friends and family or sharing hobbies.
    The internet is open and should remain that way, yes everybody should be able to see what your up to online and you should be able to see what everybody else is doing including Parliament. My point is that going down the road of privacy rights has a very real possibility of slowing down the sharing of information to a crawl. The internet is so important I believe that it should have no rules or regulation at all. Where do we stop? Would we catch as many paedophiles with out the net? Twitter is now under attack by French courts and the English court of public opinion because of the horror of people saying what they like. Get over it. There’s the power button – hit it and get some fresh air. Also perhaps take a break from social networking then people will stop confusing being on line with living a life.

  48. Every report I have read of the interview , except at the standard and a handful of far left tweeter’s have said, Key came off as excellent in the interview.

    You guys are beating a dead horse, you come across like the gop when after the second USA debate, they then argued all of romney’s points for him, that he couldnt argue himself.

    • Bladelores 48.1

      I agree its really easy to sell a used car in New Zealand. And yes speaking to others today I believe that Key has changed many peoples minds. We have the most amazing used car salesmen and if they do really well they can make it all the way to PM. New Zealand homes must be pretty whiffy with all the dead rats sold them daily (not to mention the moisture from their leaky homes accelerating the rotting carcases ). Yep no surprise that New Sheepland is convinced by someone who doesn’t use big confusing words, but explains things in very simple terms so vague that there is no question to ask. Who in their right mind uses Norton’s, when they were busted so long ago for spying themselves, anyway. So sad to see this issue being a left right thing in ‘no civic education’ New Sheepland. Glad you bought in the USA debate as for the first time in a long time in the USA this issue is not a left right issue but a privacy issue. This country mocks Americans for being insular and ignorant, unlike worldly NZ. Will I would say that it is NZ that is insular and ignorant. Those that leave do not come back.
      I wrote a comment before to try to stimulate conversation about if the internet should have any laws at all. Unfortunately no uptake. This is the problem everything is so f#&%$@n black and white here. We need to learn to discuss and listen, lets start with teaching our kids civics and classics so we can dialogue in stead of digging ourselves into entrenched holes.

    • happynz 48.2

      No, it is nothing like that Brett. John Campbell is not running for elective office. This wasn’t a presidential debate.

      Anyway, Key’s old gambit of spouting numbers he pulled from his backside and then bashing on without actually naswering the question…par for the course. Also, I don’t get this whole idea of Key giving a “master class”. I honestly don’t get it. His squeaky air sucking delivery doesn’t exactly inspire trust.

  49. Tim 49

    Karol – I’m grateful for the translation. All I could hear was slippery dick sssshhhhmizzum eeeeetchum shhhhhhwiis eeeekshill kaka (going forwid).
    Reading thru’ it all though itzorl snot sprizung.
    I freely admit to a disability – half the time I can’t work out whether he’s just lazy, or totally pissed. But if Key was trying to sell me a car, or a ‘portfolio’, I’d give it all a woide berth (not quite wide enough though for a Pulla Bent to slip through –
    {safety issues} – she’d be likely to snag her leopard skin ugboots.

    Oh PS – I just thought I’d put the ‘judgmental’ in in order for Chris Trotter to justify a recent post that relates to the prolim with Labour

  50. Venezia 50

    Thanks for this transcript Karol. It certainly exposes the slipperiness of John Key.

  51. Kia ora – thanks for doing this – after spending years doing the same thing.

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