Labour’s three factions

Written By: - Date published: 2:41 pm, March 25th, 2013 - 348 comments
Categories: labour - Tags: , ,

It’s interesting how little understanding there is of the state and politics within the Parliamentary Labour Party. A lot of the coverage of Labour’s internal workings has tended to personalise the tension – it’s been focused on Shearer vs Cunliffe without any questions about what lies beneath.

As always, there’s a lot more to it. Most of the drama within Labour since the last election can be put down to the power struggle between the Parliamentary party’s threefactions. I think it’s time to shine a light on what’s going on so members can better judge the behaviour of their parliamentary representatives.

Questions of ideology, loyalty, and personal advancement all play their part in the makeup of Labour’s three factions. Each faction has a core group of hard support as well as a handful of soft supporters who can and have switched allegiances from time to time. This is much looser and informal than the Australian system of factions.

Broadly speaking though, Labour’s three factions are as follows:

The Right
David Shearer (leader)
Phil Goff
Annette King
David Parker
Clayton Cosgrove
Shane Jones
Damien O’Connor
Kris Fa’afoi
Ross Robertson

(total 9)

Within this faction is most of Labour’s experience, and it shows. While only a small minority in caucus, these guys know how to organise, scare, and run a solid internal political game. But while they’re good at the internal game, they’re completely shit at national politics as the last four years has shown. Goff, King, and Cosgrove are the core, and they’re currently running the show. Fa’afoi seems an odd fit here, much newer and younger than the others; it could be because he was taken under King’s wing. The Right hold five front bench positions.

The Left
David Cunliffe (leader)
Nanaia Mahuta
Louisa Wall
Sue Moroney
Su’a William Sio
Lianne Dalziel
Parekura Horomia
Rajen Prasad
Rino Tirikatene
Carol Beaumont
Raymond Huo
Moana Mackey
Iain Lees-Galloway
Andrew Little

This is the largest and most diverse faction. You’ll find most of caucus’ Maori and women here. They haven’t done well with organising internally, and it shows because they’re currently out in the cold. But a lot of members believe this is real Labour – there is not a single former parliamentary staffer in these ranks. Andrew Little is a bit of wild card here, while his politics are firmly left you can’t count him on him voting for any one particular faction. The Left hold no front bench positions.

(total 14)

The Careerist Left
Grant Robertson (leader)
Chris Hipkins
Jacinda Ardern
Phil Twyford
Clare Curran
Maryan Street
David Clark
Trevor Mallard
Darien Fenton
Megan Woods
Ruth Dyson

(total 11)

Of the 11 MPs in the Careerist Left, 7 are former parliamentary staffers. This group has some good people but there’s a strong thread of personal advancement running through it, which is why they’ve brokered a deal with the Right. Robertson is wary of the ‘Left’ faction, because he doesn’t think he’ll do as well out of a deal with Cunliffe. Many of his backers have made the same decision, and they’ve been duly rewarded in the reshuffle. Mallard and Dyson are in this faction by accident – they simply don’t like Cunliffe. Street is an odd fit with this faction, and no one I’ve talked to can explain what she’s doing there.

None of the factions by themselves have the numbers to control caucus, which is why the Right has built an alliance with Careerist Left. That’s who’s in charge now.

How long will this alliance last? It’s impossible to tell. While it’s clear something major needs to change in Labour, it’ll require either Shearer or Robertson to feel that it’s in their interests to break the relationship. Given the party membership and the unions are likely to favour the Left faction it’s not in the interests of either Shearer or Robertson to trigger a wider leadership election.

A break will probably require either an election loss or some seriously bad polling (in the 20s) that makes the softer members of the Careerist Left change tack out of fear of being booted out of Parliament.

As for the Left faction, you may be wondering why they failed to trigger a leadership vote in February when their faction had one more vote than they needed. It was simple bluffing. Moana Mackey and Iain Lees-Galloway voted Shearer because they thought he had the votes, and quite sensibly didn’t want to be punished by the Right – though it doesn’t look like it did either of them any good in the reshuffle.

348 comments on “Labour’s three factions ”

  1. Colonial Viper 1

    Nice write up Eddie. In there somewhere is there a Labour Party which is going to unashamedly advocate for ordinary workers, those on the minimum wage and the underclass. I hope so.

    • Peter 1.1

      Focus groups are telling the current MPs that such a Labour Party has no future, therefore, this does not exist.

      • Elizabeth Bourchier 1.1.1

        Who controls the engagement with the marketing co running the Focus Groups?
        Shearers office, peopled with Robertson loyalists.

        So the stuff fed to the MPs is always going to re-inforce the status quo.

        MPs who are giving more weight to Focus Group FUD than their own soundings (and value based instincts) are merely weathervanes. Decorative sweet things.

        • Peter 1.1.1.1

          Absolutely – it’s a nice cozy tight little circle, with inherent feedback loops. And, as with all feedback loops, it’s garbage in, garbage out. What pisses me off the most is not that this happens – this happens with all political systems – it’s that Labour knows it’s the case, has a mechanism to reconnect (the party…), and then mendaciously chooses to ignore it.

          It’s great if you want to reduce Labour to a brand only, and then keep getting relected, generally by way of the list and the residual 30% of people in NZ who don’t like the tories and won’t vote Green.

          It’s great for job security – because as a Labour MP, you really need job security, because there’s nothing more ex, than an ex-Labour MP…

          It’s also proven – for now – to be a winning strategy, winning against anyone, such as David Cunliffe, who has tried to challenge it. The question is, how long can certain people hold to their positions as kings of their crumbling little hill.

      • The Fan Club 1.1.2

        Peter, there really aren’t focus groups doing this kind of work. I know you’d like there to be, but there aren’t.

        • Jim Davis 1.1.2.1

          You’re a parliamentary staffer. One of the ones hired by Robertson. I’m guessing Vic Young Labour, either present or within the last five years.

        • Colonial Viper 1.1.2.2

          Peter, there really aren’t focus groups doing this kind of work. I know you’d like there to be, but there aren’t.

          Sure there are. Labour is paying one of the big firms* hundreds of thousands of dollars to carry out the ongoing work.

          * It’s not Curia haha

        • Peter 1.1.2.3

          Then it’s worse – the money for focus groups has dried up, and it’s basically caucus putting its finger in the Wellington breeze and guessing which way to go?

          And no, I have very little desire to work with the current parliamentary team. Didn’t mind doing some small projects for the last team, but in the current environment, it’s best to stay well away from Wellington.

    • mike 1.2

      And so do I. I’m looking forward to the companion piece on the factions within the National Party. That should uncover some doozies!

  2. chris73 acualy is Dolan 2

    Imagine picking one of those factions for a pub quiz team…

  3. just saying 3

    In what alternative universe is Trevor Mallard left (careerist or otherwise)?
    Left of what exactly? Not the tea party apparently:
    Here I would place a screen shot of his tea-party rant about being taxed to death to pay for beneficiary bludgers, from his face book page. But I didn’t know how to shoot the screen back then.
    But most of the regulars probably remember the incident – he took it down after someone in the party had a chat with him about the wisdom of it. Never retracted the sentiments though.

    More to the actual point of the post – are you sure about this Eddie? How much is educated guess-work? I know Trotter wrote something along similar lines recently.

    • Rich 3.1

      To some extent these are just labels, really? It’s all about who might get them a spokespersonship / overseas job / ministerial post (if Labour ever gets re-elected) and they just coalesce around a patr̄on accordingly.

      I don’t think somebody like Sio who was the only (I think) Labour MP to oppose marriage equality could be regarded as Left?

      If they were really left-wing, they’d join the Greens or Mana. 🙂

  4. Colonial Weka 4

    “As for the Left faction, you may be wondering why they failed to trigger a leadership vote in February when their faction had one more vote than they needed. It was simple bluffing. Moana Mackey and Iain Lees-Galloway voted Shearer because they thought he had the votes, and quite sensibly didn’t want to be punished by the Right – though it doesn’t look like it did either of them any good in the reshuffle.”

    You mean the secret vote in February, where MPs should have been able to vote without who they voted for being known?

    • Anne 4.1

      You mean the secret vote in February, where MPs should have been able to vote without who they voted for being known?

      Yeah, the one Chris Hipkins got himself elected to the counting of… so that he and his political masters could work out how each MP voted.

  5. Incensed 5

    What a load of utter rubbish. Speculation upon speculation.

    But then that is the old chestnut; create instability in the left.

    I suspect Eddie must be a Nat as he constantly determines to under mine any alternative to the vicious and nasty government of National.

    Eddie do you want to be rid of John Key etc or do you want them to continue?

    If you want rid of, stop all this nonsense and put your focus into ridding the nation of the Nat instead of smearing the left.

    One other thing. Its about Policy not Personality. It’s about team work not the individual. Together eveyone achieves more.

    • Peter 5.1

      There is nothing in this post that will change National’s trajectory in the polls. In fact, it’s the current armed stasis of the Labour Party that keeps John Key high. People don’t like him and his increasingly dodgy/lazy decision making, but they look at the Opposition and don’t see anything better. So, they’ll keep voting National.

    • wobble 5.2

      Looks like a pretty credible analysis to me. Certainly explains a lot that’s been going on.

      • Anne 5.2.1

        You can’t blame Moana Mackey and Iain Lees Galloway – caught between a rock and a hard place.

        Plausible future scenario:

        Andrew little has mana and respect across the board. While I dislike some of those “careerists” there are others who are very talented and deserving of senior roles in a Labour-led government. I can envisage a future deal being brokered between the Cunliffe (left) and Robertson (careerist) factions and that looks pretty good to me. Fresh blood, fresh talent and fresh thinking on both sides.

    • Colonial Viper 5.3

      One other thing. Its about Policy not Personality [1]. It’s about team work not the individual [2]. Together eveyone achieves more.[3]

      1) Show us the left wing policy on offer from Labour then. Where is it. 4 years out of power, what does Labour have for us. How much more time does Labour need.
      2) You should send the “team work” memo around the Labour Caucus.
      3) “Together” this is a good value. Is Labour offering solidarity with the underclass and the working class.

    • JK 5.4

      Not much sense of a “team” working together coming out of Shearer’s mouth, Incensed. He’s the guy who says “I, I, I” all the time. Some say that’s because it helps with the impression of “strong leadership” but I beg to differ. Strong leadership involves everyone, takes people along with whoever is leader, and doesn’t keep highlighting themselves.

      • Rhinocrates 5.4.1

        Admiral Sir John Jellico was a tactical genius and the strategic victor at Jutland. He was nicknamed “Silent Jack” because he never raised his voice and it was said that was because he never needed to. Shearer, with all his boasting, vendettas and willy-waving, proves that he is not a leader.

        He’s just Dilbert’s pointy-haired boss.

    • SpaceMonkey 5.5

      “If you want rid of [John Key], stop all of this nonsense and put your focus into ridding the nation of the Nat instead of smearing the left.”

      There’s no point if the left a) offer no credible alternative or b) are going to rinse and repeat the same sort of behaviours as this current Government.

      At the moment, Labour does not offer a credible alternative. Waiting in the wings for the country to get sick of John Key makes Labour a National-lite government in waiting – in exactly the same way that National was accused of being Labour-lite in John Key’s first term. Where is the policy that marks Labour out from National?

      At the moment, one could be excused for thinking that under David Shearer, Labour is going to offer the same quality of Government as John Key’s National… maybe I’m being too cynical but since 1984, NZ politics has been highjacked by a mega-corporates with feet in both the Labour and National camps. The less said about policy the better, lest it require them to actually do something.

      To me, David Shearer looks to be representing those mega-corporate interests. Why would I vote for more of the same just because I loathe John Key?

    • Draco T Bastard 5.6

      If you want rid of, stop all this nonsense and put your focus into ridding the nation of the Nat instead of smearing the left.

      We actually want the country to go left. Getting in behind the present leadership of the Labour Party will take it further to the right.

    • The Al1en 5.7

      “If you want rid of [John Key], stop all of this nonsense and put your focus into ridding the nation of the Nat instead of smearing the left.”

      Did that from ’08 and fuck all good that did. Where have Labour been for four and a half years? Clearly not doing their jobs considering the ’11 result and piss poor polling ever since.

      “One other thing. Its about Policy not Personality.”

      No it’s not, not any more.

      “It’s about team work not the individual.”

      Not seen much of anything that looks like team work to me.
      Seen plenty of self interested career politicians positioning themselves for 2014, but fuck all team work. What party are you looking at?

      “Together eveyone achieves more.”

      Overseas bank accounts with more than us$50k for everyone to forget about.

    • Pascal's bookie 5.8

      “One other thing. Its about Policy not Personality.”

      For the love of christ.

      It’s ‘about’ a whole bunch of things, working together. There are more than two things, and even if there were only two things, Personality would be more important than Policy in terms of Winning. In terms of governing, no. But you don’t get to govern until you win. You need all of the things. You need Policy to be a good government, but it will not win you elections by itself.

      Look at the last election. Actually look at it.

      Labour had a heap of bold policy that was actually quite popular, and Phil Goff.

      National had John Key and his MOM.

      • SHG (not Colonial Viper) 5.8.1

        Labour had a heap of bold policy that was actually quite popular

        Yes, who can forget such hits as “Axe the Tax (note: Tax may not in fact be Axed)”

  6. tc 6

    Can now see where the energy has been going rather than build credible policies that will see them relected.

    If they’d just followed their LEC’s and voted as instructed we’d be seeing a DC led Labour viscerate this gov’t. Depressing post Eddie even discounting it for speculation.

  7. JK 7

    “Street is an odd fit with this faction, and no one I’ve talked to can explain what she’s doing there”.

    IMO Street wants to make a “name” for herself. It didn’t happen when she was Party president. It might happen if her euthanasia bill gets picked out of the ballot box. I think she’s forgotten her feminist politics in favour of herself.

    “A break will probably require either an election loss or some seriously bad polling (in the 20s) that makes the softer members of the Careerist Left change tack out of fear of being booted out of Parliament”.

    I can’t see the seriously bad polling happening until John Key gets stuck into Shearer during the actual election campaign. By then it will be too late to change the Labour leadership. I, too, like tc, find it a depressing scenario, and IMO I don’t think Eddie is too far out in his assessment of the Labour caucus as it is at the moment. But I would have left out the “left” from the careerist faction. Careerist types are individualistic = more likely to be rightwing, than left.

    • Colonial Viper 7.1

      But I would have left out the “left” from the careerist faction. Careerist types are individualistic = more likely to be rightwing, than left.

      Indeed…personal career interests come first and foremost.

    • George D 7.2

      During the leadership contest, Giovanni Tiso (one of NZ’s undervalued public intellectuals) asked openly what their political stances were, where their ideological platform could be found. None was delivered.

      Instead, we had to read into the little they’d said in public about ideas of people, economies, and the state. More became apparent over time, but we’re still mostly in a vacuum, and when we do make public judgments based on what we know we’re accused of falsifying matters and attacking from the right.

      As an insider with knowledge, and a track record here of speaking the truth, I have to trust ‘Eddie’s judgment on these matters, because there is little else for those of us outside to determine what the caucus actually believes.

      A similar analysis of ideological alignment in the Greens might be useful (but it’s not going to be me that does it, not today anyway). The Greens are somewhat softer in their divisions and until recently have been able to entertain the possibility of careerism – which has prevented those without strong ideological or practical convictions from entering and sustaining themselves, but they do cleave on a number of lines. These are primarily along consumer-individual amenable environmentalism (centrist, in other words), and collectivist notions of responsibility to each other and the earth we live on (leftist). Both are incompatible with the current Government, but the latter is much more so.

      • Pascal's bookie 7.2.1

        Exactly George, whether or not this piece is informed, fanciful, or otherwise misses the point that it exists because of the way Labour is managed and how it communicates.

      • ghostrider888 7.2.2

        Like this, George D 🙂

      • George D 7.2.3

        ‘…unable to entertain the possibility of careerism’, rather.

      • outofbed 7.2.4

        I’ll give it a whirl, top to bottom then in order
        leftist
        Delahunty
        Logie
        Roche
        Walker
        Mathers
        Turei
        Norman
        Clendon
        Hague
        Genter
        Hughes
        Brown
        Sage
        Graham

        amenable environmentalism
        🙂

      • The Fan Club 7.2.5

        Eddie is just running pro-Cunliffe lines. He’s simply wrong about the motives and opinions of many of the MPs listed here, and in particular his conception of a “left” and a “careerist left” faction are basically self-serving nonsense.

        Also, Mackey backed Shearer to avoid being tarred as pro-Cunliffe? WTF, Mackey was doing Cunliffe’s numbers & was pretty seriously thought to be behind large parts of the maneuvering at Conference. (In fact the better bits had her handwriting all over them, I was quite impressed.) If she thought a vote for Shearer would protect she is much dumber than she is.

        • quartz 7.2.5.1

          He’s simply wrong about the motives and opinions of many of the MPs listed here

          Name one of these MPs and explain why eddie is wrong about their motives. I’m willing to believe that’s the case but thusfar I find eddie more convincing than you.

          • The Fan Club 7.2.5.1.1

            Mackey’s the obvious one. No way Mackey voted Shearer to try and get on side — too tainted already. Little’s pretty well known to be doing the work for Shearer.

            Calling Woods and Fenton careerists is incoherent. Likewise Street and Dyson (if you’ve got a left faction and Street and Dyson aren’t in it then it is not a left faction).

            • quartz 7.2.5.1.1.1

              I didn’t realise Little was “doing the work” for Shearer. What kind of work? I don’t know anything about Wood but Fenton seems left enough that I would have thought she’d vote for Cunliffe.

              • The Fan Club

                Arg. You see, assuming that because someone’s “left” they’ll vote for Cunliffe is a large part of the problem. It isn’t a left/right split. (That’s why Robertson, Dyson, Woods, Fenton, Street, etc broke for Shearer. Because it’s not about left v right.)

                Yeah, Little was pushing the affiliates at conference not to block vote in favour of the 40% trigger.

                • Jim Davis

                  He also said very pointedly that the reason for it was ‘anxiety about the current leadership’, and earned the displeasure of the Right because of it. You really don’t understand how this all works do you?

                • quartz

                  Little also called out the concern about Shearer at the same conference so I’m more inclined to think he’s a wild card like eddie said.

                  Does that mean Shearer’s not part of the right wing of the party? What about Phil and Annette?

                  • The Fan Club

                    Stating that this was a leadership debate was an anti-Cunlife line at the time. Michael Wood ran it as well, and he’s tight with Goff. Trotter argues that Little was rewarded for that line.

                    Marty, the split is about personalities & competence, in the main.

                    • quartz

                      I took what Little said to mean concerns about Shearer’s competence but I wasn’t listening that closely. Who’s marty?

                    • The Fan Club

                      The chap below.

                      No, “this is about leadership” was a line being taken by broadly pro-Shearer actors. It was an attack on Cunliffe and his backers in caucus.

                    • quartz

                      OKay. But who is marty?

                      Edit: Oh, I see you were talking to marty mars. There’s a reply button you can use to keep your comment attached to the comment you’re responding to.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Co-ordinated lines (lies), were run against Cunliffe at Conference.

                      This additional confirmation from TFC is no surprise to anyone who was there.

                • If it is not a left/right split, what and where is the split about?

            • Jim Davis 7.2.5.1.1.2

              This is where you show you’re a punter, not a player.

              Mackey was reported in the media as shifting her support to Shearer in February. It might seem stupid but having seen the way others who’ve opposed him have been treated I can empathise with her decision.

              If you think Little is ‘doing Shearer’s work’ then you’re woefully misinformed. By all accounts he’s playing with a very straight bat and trying to avoid getting embroiled in factionalism. I’m not convinced it’s a winning strategy, but it’s the one he seems to have chosen.

              As the post points out Street is an odd fit with the careerists, and Dyson is driven by personal dislike. Woods is an odd one too. All of those three would be at the soft end – they deliver the votes but they’re not in the inner circle.

              Fenton is definitely driven by her career. She’s widely seen as being on her way out (unfairly I think) and is clinging to Shearer to save herself. Much like yourself, no doubt. I’m guessing you’re in Shearer’s pay. After all, the only people who seem to back Shearer these days are those who rely on him for either pay or position.

              • The Fan Club

                Yeah, Little plays it straight to a large extent, because apart from anything else he’s got his own future to consider. But he was definitely working against Cunliffe at conference.

                Again, if Mackey thought that she’d be able to get out of the inevitable freeze by a jump for Shearer that late, she was an idiot. Also, of course, she was doing the numbers for Cunliffe, and so if she thought they didn’t have them, they didn’t have them.

                According to Trotter, Woods was one of the people whipping for Shearer at conference.

                (If you’re listing factions, and there’s a faction of 11, 4 of whom are a bad fit, then maybe in fact you don’t have a faction at all?)

                (As I’ve repeatedly said, don’t work for Labour in Parliament or outside. Sorry.)

                • Jim Davis

                  I think the problem is you’re taking the labels Eddie’s applied to the factions too literally. As he points out, they’re loose factions and ‘Questions of ideology, loyalty, and personal advancement all play their part.’

                  It’s not all political. The broad left-right split is, but the split between Cunliffe and Robertson’s factions involves personal advancement, loyalty and personal relationships. People move in and out around the margins. It’s a simple model, but it’s one that chimes with my experience. Like any model there are arguments to be had around the edges, but fundamentally this post nails the division lines in caucus.

                  • The Fan Club

                    No, I think the problem is that Eddie’s factions aren’t an accurate reflection of the Party. The group of MPs backing Cunliffe don’t back him for ideological reasons, and calling them “left” is just not true. (I mean, Rino? Left wing? Hahaha.)

                    • hush minx

                      I find this post fascinating, but would have to ask why are you so sure Mackey was doing the numbers? I know its reported as ‘common wisdom’ but I think we’d all agree how far off that common wisdom was when it came to picking the outcome of the conference vote. I’d have thought there would have been operators less above the radar doing the numbers work. It seems credible to me that Mackey just ran scared. Someone should have warned her of the power of collectivism when under attack!

                    • The Fan Club

                      Why am I so sure about Mackey? Well, because no one ever contradicts when I say so!

                      As far as her handwriting being all over conference, well: Mackey and Flatt go back a long way (to their time in Young Labour), and that it was the DWU (Flatt in other words) that pushed hardest for the 40% at the Affiliates, then the Servos, and then the EPMU were basically just falling in line. And it was the block union vote that rolled the r&f who weren’t, in general, in favour of the 40% trigger.

                      So you’re looking at Mackey & people in the Auckland Servos as the prime movers there.

                    • @lee

                      The Fan Club, I generally agree with what you’ve said in the comments on this thread, but I have it on reasonably good authority that Little was organising to get the affiliates to support the 40% threshold while publicly attacking it on the conference floor (I was there).

                      I wonder whether Little will turn out to be the prime beneficiary of all this, rather than Robertson: Little appears to have come out of it all as the grey man, with nobody sure what he thinks and being relatively unscathed.

                      I read the division as a simple reflection of the fact that the majority of caucus think Cunliffe is a wanker with an uncontrollable ego, who would be hell to work with as leader – i.e. they don’t think he has leadership skills; think Kevin Rudd without the Mandarin.

                      The thing that the parliamentary Cunliffe supporters almost all have in common is this: a perception they are shirkers and/or incompetents. A couple of them, Cunliffe included, just have poor personal relationships inside caucus and know that Cunliife being leader is the only shot they have of ever being in Cabinet.

                      I am continually amazed that people think Cunliffe is Left and that nobody touting him as the solution has ever seemed to pause publicly to ask how he went from one of the most economically rightwing members of the last government to the doyenne of the activist left of the Party? This is a protege of Helen Third Way Clark we’re talking about, an admirer of Tony Blair and Bill Clinton: with all that comes with it, including (and especially) triangulation. This is a man who lives outside his electorate in Herne Bay(!) instead stooping to living in, say, Titirangi or Piha.

                      The positives around Shearer are that he is a very likable and good man, and a gifted leader (albeit not a natural politician) who does not shy away from and deals with internal conflict in robust manner, and who thrives under pressure. Shearer’s ego is well under control – it’s not like he thinks he’s an awesome public speaker, for instance.

                      It’s not about left or right, it’s about personalities: the party would be healthier if it were about the former. I think if the Cunliffe crowd were removed, then the cleavages would be far more ideological and better for the Party and NZ.

                    • The Fan Club

                      @lee, yeah, I have heard versions of that ranging from Little was playing two positions through to he just didn’t push the affiliates very hard. I don’t buy the claim he was pushing the unions towards 40%, but I do think he probably didn’t waste much capital on that.

                      He was still publicly pro-Shearer, no matter what was going on behind the scenes.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      @Lee lolz

                      Now that you’ve detailed Cunliffe’s adherence to 3rd way politics, his supposed history on the “Right Wing” (lol) and his being an admirer of the likes of Clinton and Blair…

                      Please explain to us – what is Shearer’s stance on political economics? Which political leaders does he admire and why?

                    • @lee

                      Viper, I think Shearer is ideologically naive (some say “post-ideological”) and clearly didn’t initially understand why quoting people from the Finnish right, even though they’re way to he left of where Labour is on the political compass in reality, is not a good move.

                      Shearer clearly admires political and moral courage (and possesses it himself). I think he is focused on what he thinks works and is a pragmatist with a moderate inclination. I don’t think he has a sophisticated political economy worked out. He is, in reality, like a lot of decent humanitarians – his instincts are to help people practically and the desire to do that is what drove him into politics.

                      I’m not saying that Shearer is the great left hope, I just don’t think that Cunliffe is. Shearer is not a strong ideological force, which is the role Robertson seems to be playing. The idea that Shearer is some kind of neo-liberal ideologue waiting to spring the last round of Rogernomics on us is laughable though, and so is the idea that Cunliffe is a principled leftwing social democrat.

                    • felix

                      Oh come on @Lee.

                      The idea that Cunliffe is some sort of shit-breathing half-man-half-hornet mutation who feeds on rotting human flesh and lives in a sewer is laughable.

                    • Olwyn

                      I intend this as a reply to @Lee. This is the nearest “reply” button. Firstly, on the subject of Cunliffe. You forget that some people do actually know him, and that he has great support within his own electorate and LEC. No one actually expects him to be the reincarnation of Karl Marx. He does, however, take a genuinely centre-left position and defend it. In doing this, he puts himself in the position where he can be called to account if he fails to live up to it.

                      Now, this “ideological naivety” that you ascribe to David Shearer. Is this the best time in history for the main party of the left to be lead by an ideological naive? And what do “political and moral courage” amount to when one cannot discern the direction in which they will be pointed? Ruth Richardson was described in just those terms when she produced “the mother of all budgets.” Has it escaped your attention that the most enthusiastic cheer-leaders for this current leadership are from the right of the spectrum? So long as Labour cannot afford to sacrifice its right wing allies it can hardly mount a robust and effective opposition to the current government. And so long as it cannot mount a robust opposition it is going to be regarded with suspicion by many of its natural supporters.

                • @lee

                  Felix, don’t be hysterical. That’s not what I said. Cunliffe’s got an ego that he struggles to restrain and poor relationships within caucus; I don’t think he’s the bogey man, just that it seems naive or myopic to take Cunliffe on face value.

                  • felix

                    You started it fucko: “The idea that Shearer is some kind of neo-liberal ideologue waiting to spring the last round of Rogernomics on us is laughable

    • Rhinocrates 7.3

      too late to change the Labour leadership.

      I’ll expect that line from McFlock. Too soon to tell – give them time… more time… a few more minutes… microseconds… look, I know this guy Xeno and he had this thing about an arrow/too late, you’re rocking the boat and it’s your fault if the brand loses!

      • Colonial Viper 7.3.1

        Yeah it’ll go straight from “too soon to change the Labour leadership” directly to “too late to change the Labour leadership”.

        • McFlock 7.3.1.1

          Nope. I reckon there’s a window of nine months or so from now for a leadership challenge. But I don’t think it’ll happen, bar some significantly bad polling or a major scandal for shearer personally. Current polling is solid, not spectacular, but not abysmal either. Using eddie’s breakdown of the factions, that means the right are still able to hang on and the careerists are still assured of work.

          In the case of shearer getting pinged from leadership for whatever reason, the folk on the “right” strike me (although I don’t know all of them) as being unlikely candidates for the leadership, which leaves them putting up a careerist as a compromise candidate.

          I reckon labour could drop around 5 points during the campaign, so to be comfortable needs to be polling around 40% at the start of the campaign frenzy (if shearer doesn’t continue to improve his skills, of course). But then that assumes a 100% solid Key. I wonder if they’ll promise a brighter future for a third time?

          I’m not sure the rotten boroughs are entirely up for grabs, though, and there’s always the outside chance of the conservatives coming in with an electorate seat and winston only getting 4.95% (skewing the proportional balance).

          • Rhinocrates 7.3.1.1.1

            That amount of calculation indicates desperation.

            • McFlock 7.3.1.1.1.1

              If it were wrong or based on completely false premises, maybe.

              If labour continue on 32-35% for the rest of the year, do you really think anyone will have enough support to get rid of shearer in their favour? <30%, I can see that, but with the broad left on the cusp of taking the lead from national? Nah. So that leaves illness or scandal for shearer to cause a leadership change.

              Will labour drop during the campaign, and if so how much? That's tealeaf-reading, but if we assume shearer is as good as goff was (big assumption, but do you have a better idea? The guy is slowly improving), and key doesn't have "strong leader in time of crisis" qudos, do you think shearer will drop as much as goff did?

              • Colonial Viper

                but if we assume shearer is as good as goff was (big assumption, but do you have a better idea?

                You’re talking about Phil Goff here? Veteran MP, multi portfolio Minister, hugely experienced in Parliamentary and NZ Governmental processes?

                I suppose Shearer did save a few million lives, in comparison.

                • McFlock

                  yeah, that’s the one.
                  The Goff who was bollocked in the debates by a swaggering boor who asked a simple, predictable question.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    I think Goff did relatively well during those debates, apart from that single incident.

                    • McFlock

                      people watch nascar for the crashes.

                    • just saying

                      Goff had the advantage of having once been a left-winger. Shearer has no such history and no understanding of left-wing ideology or rhetoric. Goff was able to channel his former self to prevent a catastrophic loss, as would have happened if a significant proportion of the left flank of Labour had refused to vote for them. In those final debates Goff was in damage limitation mode.

                      When Goff spoke in those debates, I believe he was in character, and he actually believed his words. Inevitably, it didn’t last beyond the performances. No man is rich enough to buy back his soul, once he has sold it.

                    • Rhinocrates

                      Very nicely said, just saying, though I’m not sure that Goff was ever a left-winger. He might have thought that he was, but genuinely progressive? I think not – his sexist, authoritarian dickishness evidenced by “Phwoarrr, I’d like to fuck Liz Hurley”, “Looters should be court-martialled and shot” and his anti-democratic actions in government suggest not.

                    • Rhinocrates

                      mr rape analogy?

                      Oh you poor victim.

                      Note the quote marks.

                      Again, you could end this so easily – you can say that you were wrong, that you told a lie. It’s as simple as that.

                      Admit that you’re a liar.

                    • McFlock

                      Try replying to the right comment

                    • Rhinocrates

                      Try replying to the right comment

                      No McFlock. You claimed that I support genocide. Show me where I said “I support genocide”. Word for word. If it were true, it would be easy, if it were not possible, then you are a lying shit. Simple as that. You can withdraw the accusation and apologise any time you like.

                    • Rhinocrates

                      I’m not married. Never have been.

                      No, I demanded a yes or no answer, so that won’t do. That’s evasion, so if you don’t have a “wife” exactly, you must be beating your partner.

                      Now you see, do you understand what a leading question is?

                      It seems

                      Again, the insinuation. Your fantasies and projections mean nothing.

                      Be honest. You can apologise and withdraw your implied slander any time you like.

                    • Rhinocrates

                      So “actually happened” = “lies”? What the fuck planet are you on?

                      No, lies about me.

                      I don’t give a fuck. It wasn’t a fucking question, you tool

                      Fuck fuck fuckety fuck fuck… and tits.

                      I am offended because comparing Labour having shearer as caucus leader with rape belittles them both and is fucking stupid.

                      It’s not a comparison, it’s an idiom. Look those words up in the OED.

                      can’t work a reply button

                      On my browser, the reply button does not appear this far down the thread. I didn’t write the software. Also, I did not cause the drought.

                      I am offended

                      So I’m supposed to care about your delicate sensibilities? Alright, what about mine? Let that be a lesson to you. Can you perhaps appreciate the fact that things you say, insinuations you make, can be offensive – or are you so filled with righteousness that you think that nothing you say could possibly be anything other than the pure, unalloyed truth?

                      So you’re offended? Can you understand that you can be offensive?

                      You could simply say, “I think that the option you propose could lead to further atrocities because…” and a perfectly civil, reasonable conversation could follow. Instead you say – and these are your words:

                      You just prefer genocide

                      You can take them back any time you like.

                    • McFlock

                      So “actually happened” = “lies”? What the fuck planet are you on?

                      No, lies about me.

                      Well, you haven’t demonstrated that I’ve lied yet. And nice flipping around of the “subject” question, you little sohpist, you.

                      I don’t give a fuck. It wasn’t a fucking question, you tool

                      Fuck fuck fuckety fuck fuck… and tits.

                      Actually, swearing IS somewhat idiomatic of my socioeconomic area.

                      I am offended because comparing Labour having shearer as caucus leader with rape belittles them both and is fucking stupid.

                      It’s not a comparison, it’s an idiom. Look those words up in the OED.

                      lol

                      idiom, n. A form of expression, grammatical construction, phrase, etc., used in a distinctive way in a particular language, dialect, or language variety; spec. a group of words established by usage as having a meaning not deducible from the meanings of the individual words.

                      So they just randomly sprinkle their language with rape references in your neck of the woods, do they?

                      com’parison, v. 1. trans. To liken

                      Or were did you use idiom in the sense of:
                      idiom, n. […]
                      II. Non-linguistic senses.
                      4. A specific form, manifestation, nature, or property of something, now chiefly as fig. use of branch I.; (Theol.) a property of Christ as either human or divine. Cf. sense 5.


                      can’t work a reply button

                      On my browser, the reply button does not appear this far down the thread. I didn’t write the software. Also, I did not cause the drought.

                      Scroll up to the first one above the comment you wish to reply to then. I’m in the same boat.


                      I am offended

                      Then let that be a lesson to you. Can you perhaps appreciate the fact that things you say, insinuations you make, can be offensive – or are you so filled with righteousness that you think that nothing you say could possibly be anything other than the pure, unalloyed truth?

                      I’m prepared to be demonstrated wrong. E.g. you complain I said that you supported genocide, I say “the fuck I did”, so you provide a link to a comment where I said “Rhinocrates supports genocide”, that would be pretty clear that I was wrong to deny saying it. And given that I’m pretty sure you haven’t made a comment along the lines of “genocide is cool, there should be more of it”, for me to say that you supported genocide would be wrong.

                      But nothing has been that clear cut. You just equate “prepared to stand around and do nothing to stop it” with “support it”. And call me a liar and slanderer because of the inference you made, rather than make your position clear.

                      So you’re offended? Can you understand that you can be offensive?

                      You could simply say, “I think that the option you propose could lead to further atrocities because…” and a perfectly civil, reasonable conversation could follow. Instead you say – and these are your words:

                      You just prefer genocide
                      You can take them back any time you like.

                      You just prefer genocide over even thinking about paying people to stop it.
                      Seems to be a fair summary of your position in the thread, so no.

                    • Rhinocrates

                      Well, you haven’t demonstrated that I’ve lied yet.

                      OK, let’s call them insinuations, but still there’s this:

                      You just prefer genocide

                      you can’t get past that, liar.

                      swearing IS somewhat idiomatic […] in your neck of the woods, do they?

                      You accuse me of double standards? If so, try not to make your own so obvious.

                      Scroll up to the first one above the comment you wish to reply to then. I’m in the same boat.

                      I do that. Software is no excuse for you.

                      I say “the fuck I did”

                      You said this:

                      You just prefer genocide

                      You can withdraw that statement and apologise any time you like.

                      You just prefer genocide over even thinking about paying people to stop it.
                      Seems to be a fair summary of your position in the thread, so no.

                      “Have you stopped beating your wife yet?”

                      That is what misrepresentation means.

                      The fact is, I have thought about it and I have made it clear already. I said that enabling future genocides is a likely consequence of paying mercenaries. You are lying about me and misrepresenting me.

                      I am sick of your lies, so I will say it again: you are a liar.

                      I am offended

                      So, are you “offended”? Are your poor liddle feelings hurt, diddums?

                    • Rhinocrates

                      Come on McFlock, this is very easy. You like your “either-or” questions and unequivocal answers, so here’re mine:

                      Do I support genocide or do I not?

                      Just for fun, since I’ve never posted a comment on cancer, does that mean that I support cancer?

                      What are my opinions on dandruff?

                      Mannerism?

                      Baroque?

                      The Gothic Revival?

                      Hip-hop?

                      Tweed?

                      Does disagreement with you equal “evil”?

                      Answer please, otherwise you are clearly a kitten-eating evil overlord with dandruff.

                      Of course that’s all just suggestion, so I don’t need to justify it.

                      I think that one genocide is horrible. I think that more are worse. That’s it.

                      Since your’e such a bore, I’ll pre-empt your most likely answer:

                      DON’T MAKE ASSUMPTIONS.

                    • McFlock

                      My, you are antsy. I’ll take your latest whining two comments in one.


                      You just prefer genocide

                      you can’t get past that, liar.

                      It seems to be true.

                      swearing IS somewhat idiomatic […] in your neck of the woods, do they?

                      You accuse me of double standards? If so, try not to make your own so obvious.

                      Nope. I’m just pointing out you seem to have an irregular understanding of the word “idiom” – to go with “prefer = support”, I guess.


                      Scroll up to the first one above the comment you wish to reply to then. I’m in the same boat.

                      I do that. Software is no excuse for you.

                      If you did that you wouldn’t be disjointing the threads.

                      I say “the fuck I did”

                      You said this:

                      You just prefer genocide

                      You can withdraw that statement and apologise any time you like.

                      I’d like to, but it seems to be true.


                      You just prefer genocide over even thinking about paying people to stop it.
                      Seems to be a fair summary of your position in the thread, so no.

                      “Have you stopped beating your wife yet?”

                      That is what misrepresentation means.

                      Not if I don’t have a wife.

                      The fact is, I have thought about it and I have made it clear already. I said that enabling future genocides is a likely consequence of paying mercenaries. You are lying about me and misrepresenting me.

                      I am sick of your lies, so I will say it again: you are a liar.

                      Well, you’re an idiot. There’s no money in genocide. But for fear of a remote possible consequence, you will stand by and allow a certain genocide. Let me applaud your strong sense of ethical principle. clap. clap. clap.


                      I am offended

                      So, are you “offended”? Are your poor liddle feelings hurt, diddums?

                      Sorry? Did you just reply to a comment of mine that you’d already removed from context and responded to? Are you drunk, stupid or both?

                      Rhinocrates …
                      26 March 2013 at 3:40 pm
                      Come on McFlock, this is very easy. You like your “either-or” questions and unequivocal answers, so here’re mine:

                      Do I support genocide or do I not?

                      Just for fun, since I’ve never posted a comment on cancer, does that mean that I support cancer?

                      Nope. But if, say, someone had written an article on chemotherapy, and you railed against all the side effects of chemo and put forward no treatment yourself. And then gone on to accuse the original commenter of being a neolib sociopath for even discussing chemotherapy, I’d have to say that although you don’t support cancer, you’re sure as shit not going to do anything to stop it.

                      Does disagreement with you equal “evil”?

                      No. But your lack of coherence and your general obsession is beginning to equal “dumb fuckwit”.

                      Answer please, otherwise you are clearly a kitten-eating evil overlord with dandruff.

                      Of course that’s all just suggestion, so I don’t need to justify it.

                      Since your’e such a bore, I’ll pre-empt your most likely answer:

                      DON’T MAKE ASSUMPTIONS.

                      But you see, you haven’t spent the best part of a day trying to get me to take a position on any of those topics while I simply scream “lair! Prefer = Support! liar!”.

                    • McFlock

                      So just to recap the sum state of progress, rhino, we have achieved:

                      The fact is, I have thought about it and I have made it clear already. I said that enabling future genocides is a likely consequence of paying mercenaries.

                      Well, you’re an idiot. There’s no money in genocide. But for fear of a remote possible consequence, you will stand by and allow a certain genocide. Let me applaud your strong sense of ethical principle. clap. clap. clap.

                    • Rhinocrates

                      Not if I don’t have a wife.

                      Partner then. You’re obviously evading. Clearly you beat and rape your partner because you specifically avoid the term “wife”.

                      And guess what? I don’t support genocide. Say it clearly: Do I support genocide or do I not? The answer is very easy. Yes or no.

                      You can end this with one word, and that word is “No”.

                      Why can’t you answer that question? That suggests to me that you want to insinuate that I do, but you’re too much of a coward to say it again.

                      thinks “prefers” means “supports”

                      That’s the implication.

                      I am offended

                      Oh you poor baby. It really doesn’t occur to you that you might be offensive? What if I said that I was offended? That wouldn’t matter because your precious feelings matter more than anyone’s.

                      Why should I care about your precious feelings when you don’t care about anyone else’s?

                      So, like my response to the wifebeater question (point out how it differs from reality), are you going for option 3 as “hiring mercenaries to prevent one genocide will enable other genocides”?

                      Gibberish.

                      You’re insinuating. If you want clarity, make your accusations clear, or withdraw them.

                      Say I don’t support it or not. It’s very easy and you can cut and paste this:

                      I, McFlock am a lying bastard and I made unfair and dishonest accusations and insinuations. I was wrong. In fact I’m a fucking moron with the emotional development of a toddler and I’ll use any lie and dissimulation to cling to my original position.

                      Easy, isn’t it?

                      Easy to do, now go ahead.

                      Otherwise, to repeat, you can end this with one word, and that word is “No”. Go ahead. Otherwise, you’re saying “yes”.

                    • McFlock

                      Not if I don’t have a wife.

                      Partner then. You’re obviously evading. Clearly you beat and rape your partner because you specifically avoid the term “wife”.

                      as an aside, why are you fishing to see if I’m single?

                      And guess what? I don’t support genocide. Say it clearly: Do I support genocide or do I not? The answer is very easy. Yes or no.

                      You can end this with one word, and that word is “No”.

                      True. I never said you did, apparently not even in a drunken stupor that I don’t recall. So “no”.

                      Now, how about that three-faction model of caucus, eh? What likelihood does it suggest that shearer will be replaced before election 2014, barring some major scandal?

                      Why can’t you answer that question? That suggests to me that you want to insinuate that I do, but you’re too much of a coward to say it again.

                      “again”? Never said it the first time.


                      thinks “prefers” means “supports”

                      That’s the implication.

                      Nope. It’s the inference you made, in complete defiance of the meaning of either word, and an inference I even said was incorrect and too extreme at the time, you tool.

                      I am offended

                      Oh you poor baby. It really doesn’t occur to you that you might be offensive? What if I said that I was offended? That wouldn’t matter because your precious feelings matter more than anyone’s.

                      Sorry, did you just reply to the same out of context quote a THIRD time as if it was a new comment?
                      Do you have a medical condition to explain your memory issues?

                      Why should I care about your precious feelings when you don’t care about anyone else’s?

                      So, like my response to the wifebeater question (point out how it differs from reality), are you going for option 3 as “hiring mercenaries to prevent one genocide will enable other genocides”?

                      Gibberish.

                      Only to the completely stupid.

                      You’re insinuating. If you want clarity, make your accusations clear, or withdraw them.

                      Say I don’t support it or not.

                      I did at the fucking time you paranoid delusional obsessive moron.

                      You’d just rather watch a genocide unfold that pay someone to stop it.
                      Apparently, you do so on the off chance that mercenaries might suddenly find money and no risk in genocide in the future (because regional volunteers can only kill 7,000 a week, but it would take mercenaries to make it baaaaad).

                      It’s very easy and you can cut and paste this:

                      I, McFlock am a lying bastard and I made unfair and dishonest accusations and insinuations. I was wrong. In fact I’m a fucking moron with the emotional development of a toddler and I’ll use any lie and dissimulation to cling to my original position.

                      Easy, isn’t it?

                      Easy to do, now go ahead.

                      But if I wrote that I would be telling a lie, because that is [rephrase]an incorrect statement.

                    • Rhinocrates

                      really? Because you get quite impatient if I don’t give you attention immediately.

                      Fine, go ahead with the supposedly subtle homophobic slurs if you like.

                      well and truly derailed.

                      Yes, funny why you’re so determined to keep it off the rails. You can win by stopping, you know because you’ll have proven that I’m the one who derailed it.

                      viable and indeed ONLY option

                      Oh, the ONLY option. Bold? Italic? Underlined? Bold, underlined and italic? Twenty-four point perhaps?

                      Was it the only option? And again, that’s Monday. What happens on Wednesday?

                      have another crack at being a moron

                      You’re poopy-pants and you’re mummie’s fat!

                      And should be limited by laws.

                      Ah, “should.”

                      Ah yes, let’s think about that… is the world governed by “should”?

                      No.

                      Sorry.

                      not all of them delight in mass murder

                      You cannot believe how reassuring that is. Really… ‘cos I don’t.

                      Tell that to the survivors of the folk you watched die on Sunday. Especially as Monday and tuesday

                      Wednesday, Thursday, Friday… and a profit every day!

                      Anyway, I’ve got to go now, probably won’t be back online until tomorrow, so don’t fret in my absence.

                      Oh yes that one “I’ve got to go now” – the exit with a flounce.

                    • felix

                      toasting in epic bread

                    • McFlock

                      really? Because you get quite impatient if I don’t give you attention immediately.

                      Fine, go ahead with the supposedly subtle homophobic slurs if you like.

                      Not homophobic at all. Just pointing out that you seem to get antsy if I, personally, as an individual you have fixated upon, don’t respond to your comments within 20 minutes.


                      well and truly derailed.

                      Yes, funny why you’re so determined to keep it off the rails. You can win by stopping, you know because you’ll have proven that I’m the one who derailed it.

                      See, but the trouble is that you’ll just derail another comment later on by resurrecting a months old thread because of your outrage at an inference you made, simply because you think “prefer” means “support”(clue: if I prefer a punch in the guts over getting hit in the face, it doesn’t mean I support whoever punches me in the guts).

                      Basically, I’m happy to resolve this right now, but not by lying. I never said you supported genocide. You are just prepared to stand around and do nothing for fear of purely hypothetical consequences. Where is the profit in genocide?


                      viable and indeed ONLY option

                      Oh, the ONLY option. Bold? Italic? Underlined? Bold, underlined and italic? Twenty-four point perhaps?

                      Was it the only option? And again, that’s Monday. What happens on Wednesday?

                      Let’s look at the actual situation, shall we?
                      The UN and wider international response to the Rwandan genocide as it began and continued was not short of resolutions, recommendations, reports and condemnations.

                      It was short of people with guns who could stop it. Even aircraft to jam the radio station coordinating the atrocities would have saved countless lives.

                      The UN can’t give a moral backbone to casualty-averse nations who have Mogadishu fresh in their minds.
                      The UN can, however, change the internal UN policy against the UN hiring mercenaries for specific activities.

                      If you have a better idea, feel free to come up with it, because at the moment we’re still between “mercenaries” and “watch and do nothing”.

                      As it is, the OAU in particular seems to be getting more consistently active and capable, so that window of culpable inactivity is now closing and the point is moot. However, it was still a reasonable point to ponder under the circumstances at the time, and would probably have saved tens of thousands of lives.


                      have another crack at being a moron

                      You’re poopy-pants and you’re mummie’s fat!

                      Nah, see, what you did there was actually vaguely relevant to the preceeding statement. Which places it in the upper percentiles of your contribution.
                      Try again.


                      And should be limited by laws.

                      Ah, “should.”

                      Ah yes, let’s think about that… is the world governed by “should”?

                      No.

                      Sorry.

                      Well, you’re the one saying the UN should stand by and do nothing.


                      Anyway, I’ve got to go now, probably won’t be back online until tomorrow, so don’t fret in my absence.

                      Oh yes that one “I’ve got to go now” – the exit with a flounce.

                      Rhino, while contact with me might be the highlight of your day, for me contact with you is prioritised somewhere around clipping my toenails. Is it really so difficult for you to belive that I might have more interesting things to do than sitting at my keyboard 24/7 waiting for your next failure with the english language, ready to answer within moments?

                  • felix

                    And is that the Shearer who gets shot down by the same swaggering boor every question time? And rendered speechless by just about everyone who has ever put a microphone in front of him?

                    Serious question: What is it about Labour under Shearer that suggests to you that they can poll anywhere near 40% ?

                    • McFlock

                      Three points:
                      1) Shearer is improving. Slowly.

                      2) I’m not entirely sure they will reach 40%. But that’s where I think they need to be to be reasonably comfortable at the start of the campaign. The left could still win from lab35%, but if I were lab I’d want some breathing room. I’d also want to avoid the 1:1 debates because that’s not the candidate strength, but that’s getting into tactics.

                      3) Although 40% might be a tall order, I don’t think they’ll do badly enough in the polls for caucus to do a leadership challenge before 2014, and after that then yes, the “cost of change too late in the game” becomes a factor. Not “too late to change”, more “too late to change without good reason”. Going by the three-camp analysis, the careerists will still have a job so they won’t be partial to a change until their seats become endangered by the polls [giggle]. That means a drop from the current low level – unlikely. No leadership change without them, so any change is doubtful.

                    • Alanz

                      Yes, we would love to have a Leaders Debate … without a Labour leader under Shearer. Well done. Great tactic.

                    • Rhinocrates

                      Well, um, that’s quite a precise figure… too precise maybe… things can change… I mean, as we know… um… it could go up. I’m not ruling that out… just recently, I said that Labour… am I leader of the Labour Party? I mean… I said that absolutely it’s a place for homophobes… and you know, I mean, um, they might take us over the … I mean I won’t rule that out, or not… I mean forty percent is a number and I won’t rule out forty percent… I mean I painted forty percent of my roof… maybe a hundred percent… um… I forget….

                      Or, more simply: give him time!

                      No really, come on, tell me with a straight face that Mumblefuck is going to be just fucking brilliant on the campaign. Tell me that he’ll make Oscar Wilde look like…. well Mumblefuck.

                      Furthermore, tell me, with a straight face again, that Mumblefuck actually has left wing ideals that he intends to implement and will be able to.

                      Oh right, the Greens are going to provide that? Right, ‘cos Mumblefuck wants to appeal to the middle, so he’ll let them propose things, but will he actually let them get their legislation through the third reading?

                      Considering his record for backstabbing already, can you support that?

                      “I mean, yes, um, I support… in principle… um, but…can’t support it, ah, whatever it is… in its current form…” is far more plausible.

                    • McFlock

                      alanz: I reckon a parliamentary leaders’ debate would be what to root for. Reckoned it last time, too.

                      Rhino, get a life.
                      Nobody’s saying shearer’s outstanding. What I’m saying is that he’s not bad enough to be kicked by caucus, and he might not be so bad that the parliamentary left lose in 2014, anyway. In fact I’m cautiously optimistic.

                    • Rhinocrates

                      In fact I’m cautiously optimistic.

                      About what?

                      If Mumblefuck were to win, what exactly are you “cautiously optimistic” about that he would actually do?

                      Nobody’s saying shearer’s outstanding.

                      That’s an endorsement? Jesus Aitch Tap-Dancing Christ in a Sidecar. Get real Key’s a bastard, he’s swine, he’s a… well, I’m not a psychiatrist… but he’s a psychopath. He’s also popular.

                    • McFlock

                      What am I confident he’d do if he wins? Implement some left policy to keep greens and mana happy.

                      Oh, and I’m endorsing noone. Just saying that shearer’s probably here until the election.

                      If I had to endorse someone, I’d probably just say “vote alliance”

                    • Rhinocrates

                      What am I confident he’d do if he wins? Implement some left policy to keep greens and mana happy.

                      You mean token gestures? “To keep them happy” Because they’re nutters who have to be tolerated for pragmatism’s sake. Right, OK. Cop out.

                      Oh, and I’m endorsing noone. Just saying that shearer’s probably here until the election.

                      You’re probably right. “If rape is inevitable…”

                      Oh lovely, just lovely.

                      If I had to endorse someone, I’d probably just say “vote alliance”

                      Dante reserved a special circle in Hell for the cowards.

                    • McFlock

                      Oh I’m sorry, do you think any other labour party leader would do, given the caucus eddie outlines?

                      And I dare you to finish that comment and make the analogy explicit. I double-dare you.

                    • Rhinocrates

                      Oh, you dare me, do you? Is this all about honour is it? How about saying that I support genocide or some other lie? I’ll deal with you on equal terms when you actually debate honestly instead of telling lies.

                      You can withdraw that accusation and apologise any time you like.

                    • felix

                      “Nobody’s saying shearer’s outstanding.”

                      Yes, that’s kinda the problem. He’s not outstanding and nobody believes he is.

                      Hell, he’s barely mediocre. You like to point out that he’s improving, and fair enough – but look at the base he’s coming from. If he improved his performances 1000% they’d still be average (and they’d still be performances.)

                      John Key might be a cunt but he’s also very good at it. And he’s going to fuck Shearer up in the debates and everyone knows it, especially the tv stations which is precisely why they’ll insist on a head-to-head, and if Shearer refuses then everyone will say he’s afraid to debate Key and they’ll be right.

                      “ABC” eh? It’s becoming apparent that they weren’t kidding about the “Anyone.”

                    • Rhinocrates

                      Come on McFlock, I “double dare” you. Otherwise, you are a liar, and I have nothing to prove to a liar.

                    • McFlock

                      Impatient rhino?
                      You absolute tool. You use a rape analogy talking about shearer as labour party leader, and then complain about misrepresentation?

                      Tell me, did dante have a level in hell for stupid hypocrites?

                      Eddie’s post describes the situation as eddie sees it. I extrapolated from that. You want wishful thinking? Ok, I’d love it if the caucus of the first labour government were reanimated and made a permanent zombie government. It would be left wing AND cool. But in the real world shearers still leader and is unlikely to be rolled prior to the election. And that’s not a national tragedy.

                      But more to the point, what do you think any other labour leader would really do given the caucus eddie outlined?

                    • Rhinocrates

                      Answer the question, McFlock, you lying scum. You slandered me. Do I support genocide or not? If you claim I do, what proof do you have?

                      Again, You can withdraw that accusation and apologise any time you like.

                      Otherwise, a liar like you deserves no answer.

                    • McFlock

                      Felix, I agree the type of distinction, just not the extent. And actually a labour party in the mid30s gives real credence to the idea other parties should get facetime. Partners, not leader/followers.

                    • McFlock

                      Rhino, try any of the last dozen times I answered it, you dick.
                      Try googling “prepared to do nothing to stop it”, it might help. “Stand around and watch” and “seven thousand dead a week” might also be of assistance.

                    • Rhinocrates

                      Rhino, try any of the last dozen times I answered it, you dick.
                      Try googling “prepared to do nothing to stop it”, it might help. “Stand around and watch” and “seven thousand dead a week” might also be of assistance.

                      No McFlock, that’s not good enough. The fact is that you said that I supported it. Your fantasises, waffles and suppositions are meaningless. You are a liar, a coward and a hypocrite.

                      Stop your weasel words and say once and for all that I did not actually say that I supported genocide and that you were a prick (at least) for suggesting that I do.

                      Do it, unequivocally, without qualification or excuse or more of your bloody weasel words.

                    • McFlock

                      Which actual comment of mine does your malfunction come from, mr rape analogy?

                    • McFlock

                      Show me where I sad you supported Genocide, and I’ll show you why.
                      And quote marks make it a simile, not a metaphor. Still a rape analogy, “dickhead”.

                    • Colonial Weka

                      I’m sure there might be some salient points in this conversation somewhere, but it’s starting to look like a couple of bitchy kids with poor impulse control.

                    • McFlock

                      Yeah, fair enough cw. This is going nowhere.

                    • Rhinocrates

                      Then perhaps McFlock you’d like to withdraw the accusation then? Produce the evidence or otherwise…

                      It’s very easy. Do I support genocide? Yes or no? It’s easy to say. One word, three letters or two.

                      Why is this so hard for you?

                      I know it’s because you can’t admit that you are a liar.

                    • McFlock

                      Show me the comment and I’ll decide if I was wrong. No further comment without the link.

                      Hell, I’m only commenting now because you’re an obsessive dickhead. God must love perseverance, eh.

                    • Rhinocrates

                      This:

                      http://thestandard.org.nz/105076/#comment-570893

                      I’ll decide if I was wrong

                      Oh really? That’s up to you, is it?

                      In answer to your question, no.
                      You just prefer genocide over even thinking about paying people to stop it.

                      It’s very easy to apologise if you had any honesty at all, liar.

                      Again, where do I say that I support genocide?

                    • Rhinocrates

                      Just a point, McFlock, the Internet does not forget, you lying prick.

                    • McFlock

                      Fuck I forgot that debate was so tedious.
                      I did see this this.
                      In fact, from the link you provided it seems you might be the liar. But I suspect deluded more than liar.

                    • Rhinocrates

                      So nothing actually substantial McFlock? Are you trying to prove that Mathew Wormtongue supports you?

                    • McFlock

                      Show where I said you support genocide.
                      Oh, it seems I didn’t.

                    • Rhinocrates

                      No, McFlock, you did. You said I prefer it.

                      Again, answer the question. Where do I say that I prefer genocide?

                      If I don’t, then say so. Withdraw the claim or the insinuation and apologise, liar.

                    • McFlock

                      Lol
                      But I never said it, you obsessive tool.

                    • Rhinocrates

                      You just prefer genocide

                      Your words are there, liar.

                      Yes, I’m obsessive. I believe in the truth. You seem to think that a concern for the truth is crazy. Well, I guess that suggests a lot…

                    • Colonial Viper

                      McFlock always says he has no interest in the Labour leadership (even says its not really that important who is in charge) but consistently and insistently declares Shearer to always be ‘just good enough’.

                    • Rhinocrates

                      just good enough

                      Supported by increasingly desperate calculations and wishful thinking presented as certainties, or at least likelihoods that are as good as certainties… or something. Possibilities that could be certainties, or something. I’m waiting for the “Winston, something, blah, likely, maybe, well, if then will…”

                      Won’t that be wonderful? Being “pragmatic” and “centrist” and hoping on a coalition partner that includes the likes of Richard Prosser. Hey, that’s “realistic”.

                      Groovy.

                    • McFlock

                      Lol
                      Support is not the same as prefer. Support is “yay, genocide”. Prefer is “mercenaries to stop a genocide? No, better not. Guess the genocide has to go ahead, cos we can’t stop it any other way”.

                      You seemed to be against using mercenaries to stop a genocide, yet produced no alternative prevention strategy. Which means the genocide would occur, rwanda rerun.

                      But this is all getting way derailed, and cv’s flying leap was just random.
                      Nightnight, rhino. No doubt you’ll be just as nutty tomorrow.

                    • Rhinocrates

                      You seemed to be against using mercenaries to stop a genocide, yet produced no alternative prevention strategy. Which means the genocide would occur, rwanda rerun.

                      “Seemed”

                      That is almost honest. You admit that you are making suppositions and putting words in other peoples’ mouths, finally. Still, you remain a liar.

                      Perhaps in future you might honestly represent opposing viewpoints, McFlock?

                      “Nutty” I may be, but a liar I am not.

                    • McFlock

                      Well, apart from the fact that it seems I never actually said you support genocide, contrary to your claim.

                      But please feel free to correct my scurrilous misapprehension:
                      All other options exhausted, would you consider using mercenaries to prevent a genocide, or would you prefer to let the genocide unfold as it may?

                    • Rhinocrates

                      Have you stopped beating your wife yet? Yes or no – no hedging allowed.

                      There is no gain to be had in debating with someone so fundamentally dishonest who will so willingly misrepresents their opponent and asks leading questions.

                      Thanks for showing how disingenuous you are so clearly.

                    • McFlock

                      Funnily enough, this is a debate, not a press stunt or yes/no only question. It’s also the real life question shearer was discussing, based on real world situations he was faced with. If the alternatives seem invidious, it’s because sometimes reality is a bitch.

                    • Rhinocrates

                      not a press stunt or yes/no only question

                      You really have no appreciation for irony, do you?

                      That is exactly how you want to constrain it in order to denigrate me by insinuation.

                      I see that you’re avoiding my question, so I guess that you’re a wife-beater then.

                    • McFlock

                      I’m not married. Never have been.

                      Keep dodging. I mean, it’s great you want to protest so much, scream “liar” incessantly, but frankly it smacks of protesting too much. Faced with the same situation shearer was dealing with, you’d rather pretend it was a contrived cliché rather than sit down and consider options for preventing it happening again.

                      It seems you really would prefer to let a genocide happen rather than even consider hiring mercenaries to stop it.

                    • McFlock

                      oh, you replied to the wrong comment again.

                      Anyway:
                      No, I demanded a yes or no answer, so that won’t do. That’s evasion, so if you don’t have a “wife” exactly, you must be beating your partner.

                      Here’s the difference: you posited a hypothetical situation that didn’t conform to reality, expecting a yes or no answer. I posited a question based on an actual problem that faced the UN in the 1990s, and still has not adequately been resolved.

                      I pointed out that your question bore no relation to reality. You are free to do the same about the question I posed you, rather than squirming around and trying to change the rules you set.

                      Be honest. You can apologise and withdraw your implied slander any time you like
                      Actually, having revisited the discussion I must say that I still sincerely and thoroughly believe that you would prefer to allow a genocide to occur rather than consider using mercenaries to stop it. Whether this is due to a sincere and principled moral belief, or simply because you are so petty that you’d let hundreds of thousands die just so you could call shearer “neoliberal”, that bit I’m not so sure on yet.

                    • Rhinocrates

                      oh, you replied to the wrong comment again.

                      Oh, so you want to be selective. Evading the wife-beating question again I see.

                      Here’s the difference

                      No here’s the essential fact: leading questions are dishonest and you, in asking them, are dishonest.

                      I still sincerely and thoroughly believe

                      You can sincerely and thoroughly believe that you are Napoleon Bonaparte, but you have to prove that.

                      or simply because you are so petty

                      And again, a leading question.

                      Either you eat kittens or you are Satan.

                    • McFlock

                      oh, you replied to the wrong comment again.

                      Oh, so you want to be selective. Evading the wife-beating question again I see.

                      Nope. Just pointing out that whacking any random “reply” button defeats the purpose of having such a button at all.


                      Here’s the difference

                      No here’s the essential fact: leading questions are dishonest and you, in asking them, are dishonest.

                      Nope. That was the situation. Those were the alternatives as they appeared at the time. You can do what I did, and point out how the question does not adequately describe reality. But then you’d have to come up with an alternative course of action and make a moral judgement yourself, rather than just screaming that you’ve been misrepresented.

                      I still sincerely and thoroughly believe

                      You can sincerely and thoroughly believe that you are Napoleon Bonaparte, but you have to prove that.

                      No I don’t. I believe it, and then and now stated why: your refusal to state a position or provide any realistic third alternative. You scream that you’ve been misrepresented, but refuse to say how you’ve been misrepresented. That complaint, frankly, goes in the round filing cabinet as “insufficient information to follow up”.


                      or simply because you are so petty

                      And again, a leading question. Can you even lie straight in bed?

                      It wasn’t even a question, let alone a leading question. Note the lack of a question mark. It was a list of the most likely reasons that you would never under any circumstances hire mercenaries (could you ever conceive of a situation that you might?), even to prevent a genocide. Although now I need to add “the moral certainty that is the hallmark of the intensely stupid” to that list.

                      So just to tally up your score so far:
                      you claimed I said you supported genocide, when apparently I didn’t;
                      you claimed I asked a leading question, when it wasn’t even a question;
                      you compared the reasons why Shearer is unlikely to be rolled as leader of the labour party before election 2014 with rape;
                      you still claim to have been egregiously misrepresented, but refuse to state what your true position is;
                      and apparently I’m the bad guy.

                    • Rhinocrates

                      point out how the question does not adequately describe reality.

                      Indeed. I’m glad that you admit that. Do not claim therefore that I support some imaginary position simply because I don’t support yours.

                      But then you’d have to come up with an alternative course of action and make a moral judgement yourself […] but refuse to state what your true position is

                      I have. It’s caution. The thing that is worse than one genocide is enabling future genocides. Plural.

                      refuse to say how

                      Astonishing. You’ve said so yourself, repeatedly.

                      Note the lack of a question mark.

                      Do you think it comes down to punctuation. Ooh, let’s see, perhaps I can reduce it to an either-or: either you’re illiterate or you’re deliberately quibbling to avoid a point.

                      you compared the reasons why Shearer is unlikely to be rolled as leader of the labour party before election 2014 with rape

                      You really just don’t get rhetoric, do you? I used a common idiom. Trying to take it literally and rolling about and playing the victim is just childish.

                      apparently I didn’t

                      “apparently”? Weasel.

                      Can you possibly appreciate the fact that caution and scepticism does not indicate a “preference” for genocide? Do you know that questions can be implicit? Do you know that insinuations needn’t be explicit – indeed, it’s their indirectness that makes them insinuations.

                      I’ll say this outright: you are dishonest and you slander by insinuation.

                    • McFlock

                      point out how the question does not adequately describe reality.

                      Indeed. I’m glad that you admit that. Do not claim therefore that I support some imaginary position simply because I don’t support yours.

                      Ha – nice sophistry from someone who accuses others of it.
                      See, the circumstance of my question actually happened. Yours was imaginary.


                      But then you’d have to come up with an alternative course of action and make a moral judgement yourself […] but refuse to state what your true position is

                      I have. It’s caution. The thing that is worse than one genocide is enabling future genocides. Plural.

                      Actually, letting one genocide happen does enable others. “Who today speaks of the Armenians?”.
                      But are you arguing that hiring mercenaries to prevent one genocide will enable other genocides? Just to be explicit about it.


                      refuse to say how

                      Astonishing. You’ve said so yourself, repeatedly.

                      It’s unclear whether you would consider hiring mercenaries if the situation were dire enough, or whether you would refuse that option and present no other, or whether you have some other option that would have resulted in Rwanda not becoming a bloodbath if only the Un had thought of it at the time.

                      Note the lack of a question mark.

                      Do you think it comes down to punctuation. Ooh, let’s see, perhaps I can reduce it to an either-or: either you’re illiterate or you’re deliberately quibbling to avoid a point.

                      Punctuation is generally regarded as a big fucking clue. And your either-or missed option three, the one I’d actually described where I was merely listing what I believed to be the most likely explanations for your idiocy, rather than making an interrogative statement designed to elicit information.


                      you compared the reasons why Shearer is unlikely to be rolled as leader of the labour party before election 2014 with rape

                      You really just don’t get rhetoric, do you? I used a common idiom. Trying to take it literally and rolling about and playing the victim is just childish.

                      So if it wasn’t literal, it was figurative? Like an analogy?


                      apparently I didn’t

                      “apparently”? Weasel.

                      Nope.
                      There is always the slim possibility that what you said somehow magically intersects with reality – it was several months ago, and I have been known to drunk-comment. But the link you provided shows me saying that you prefer letting a genocide occur to hiring mercenaries that would stop it. Not me saying that you support genocide. So apparently, yes “apparently”, you’re full of shit. I’ll retract that “full of shit” if you actually show me the comment you’re derailing about.

                    • Rhinocrates

                      See, the circumstance of my question actually happened.

                      I don’t doubt that, and I know several people who were there. However, that still does not give you license to tell lies.

                      But are you arguing that hiring mercenaries to prevent one genocide will enable other genocides? Just to be explicit about it.

                      Already have been.

                      Punctuation is generally regarded as a big fucking clue

                      But not the only one.

                      And your either-or missed option three… So if it wasn’t literal, it was figurative? Like an analogy?

                      Oh the irony. So let me get this straight – you are offended that your actual position isn’t one that was defined in my deliberately simplistic (and satirical) characterisation? Golly! Are you finally starting to understand? Perhaps I don’t fit your characterisation. Have you considered that?

                      actually show me the comment

                      I already have and you’ve even repeated it. Like my wife-beating example (a commonly used example in journalism schools), you deliberately constrain the terms to “prove” your prejudice. You are doing it deliberately.

                    • McFlock

                      See, the circumstance of my question actually happened.

                      I don’t doubt that, and I know several people who were there. However, that still does not give you license to tell lies.

                      So “actually happened” = “lies”? What the fuck planet are you on?

                      But are you arguing that hiring mercenaries to prevent one genocide will enable other genocides? Just to be explicit about it.

                      Already have been.

                      Humour me. I would hate to be accused of misrepresentation. Is “hiring mercenaries to prevent one genocide will enable other genocides” a fair summary of your position?

                      Punctuation is generally regarded as a big fucking clue

                      But not the only one.

                      I would ask you what the clues were that you led you to think that I was asking you a question, but really, I don’t give a fuck. It wasn’t a fucking question, you tool.


                      And your either-or missed option three… So if it wasn’t literal, it was figurative? Like an analogy?

                      Oh the irony. So let me get this straight – you are offended that your actual position isn’t one that was defined in my deliberately simplistic (and satirical) characterisation. Golly! Are you finally starting to understand? Perhaps I don’t fit your characterisation. Have you considered that?

                      You mean like the bit where I called you “mr rape analogy”?
                      Perhaps I understand you to be an idiot who doesn’t realise that an analogy is still ” A figure of speech involving a comparison; a simile, a metaphor”, according to the OED.
                      I am offended because comparing Labour having shearer as caucus leader with rape belittles them both and is fucking stupid.


                      actually show me the comment

                      I already have and you’ve even repeated it. Like my wife-beating example (a commonly used example in journalism schools), you deliberately constrain the terms to “prove” your prejudice.

                      So, like my response to the wifebeater question (point out how it differs from reality), are you going for option 3 as “hiring mercenaries to prevent one genocide will enable other genocides”?

                      You are doing it deliberately.

                      No, I’m trying to follow an idiot who is deliberately obscure, can’t work a reply button, thinks “prefers” means “supports” and quite possibly has the reputed memory of a goldfish.

                    • Rhinocrates

                      as an aside, why are you fishing to see if I’m single?

                      Don’t flatter yourself. You really aren’t very interesting. I’m sorry to tell you that.

                      True. I never said you did, apparently not even in a drunken stupor that I don’t recall. So “no”.

                      Fine, that’s it then. I’ll accept that as “I am a dissimulating arsehole”

                      Now, how about that three-faction model of caucus, eh? What likelihood does it suggest that shearer will be replaced before election 2014, barring some major scandal?

                      Diversion. Irrelevant.

                      “again”? Never said it the first time.

                      Ahem: “You just prefer genocide”. Own your mistakes – i.e., own your lies.

                      Sorry, did you just reply to the same out of context quote

                      If you want to keep repeating your lies, go ahead. Don’t be upset if I point them out.

                      You’d just rather watch a genocide unfold that pay someone to stop it.

                      Right, that’s the essence of your slander. In your world, everything is a sliding scale. Well, your world is one in which slippery slopes are inevitable and you somehow imagine that the brakes can be magically applied somewhere halfway down that slippery slope.

                      I’d rather not watch a corporation profit from the next genocide. Obviously you support that, right? Do you really think that mercenaries are at heart humanitarians? Maybe the are… just like vegetarians care about vegetables.

                      I’m sure your so very flexible conscience will be happy with this. Meanwhile, the people who die on Monday can console themselves with the thought that it could have been worse on Tuesday and what happens on Wednesday is not their problem.

                      No, I don’t think that you delight in mass murder as you suggest I do. I think that you’re naive.

                      But if I wrote that I would be telling a lie

                      Well, what’s another lie? Shouldn’t you be consistent?

                      Now tell me about your delicate feelings. Are you offended?

                    • McFlock

                      as an aside, why are you fishing to see if I’m single?

                      Don’t flatter yourself. You really aren’t very interesting. I’m sorry to tell you that.

                      really? Because you get quite impatient if I don’t give you attention immediately.


                      True. I never said you did, apparently not even in a drunken stupor that I don’t recall. So “no”.

                      Fine, that’s it then. I’ll accept that as “I am a dissimulating arsehole”

                      Accept it as whatever you want. i never said “support” in the first place.

                      Now, how about that three-faction model of caucus, eh? What likelihood does it suggest that shearer will be replaced before election 2014, barring some major scandal?

                      Diversion. Irrelevant.

                      Except it’s the topic of the post we’ve well and truly derailed. This is one massive “irrelevant”.


                      “again”? Never said it the first time.

                      Ahem: “You just prefer genocide”. Own your mistakes – i.e., own your lies.

                      I would, if I’d said you supported genocide. But I didn’t. I just said you wouldn’t look at pretty much the most viable and indeed ONLY option that might have halted one or two massive atrocities in the 90s.


                      Sorry, did you just reply to the same out of context quote

                      If you want to keep repeating your lies, go ahead. Don’t be upset if I point them out.

                      not upset. Just intrigued that you choose to delete your previous responses su you can have another crack at being a moron.


                      You’d just rather watch a genocide unfold that pay someone to stop it.

                      Right, that’s the essence of your slander. In your world, everything is a sliding scale. Well, your world is one in which slippery slopes are inevitable and you somehow imagine that the brakes can be magically applied somewhere halfway down that slippery slope.

                      I’d rather not watch a corporation profit from the next genocide. Obviously you support that, right? Do you really think that mercenaries are at heart humanitarians? Maybe the are… just like vegetarians care about vegetables.

                      Nope. But they’re motivated by money. And should be limited by laws. And not all of them delight in mass murder, either.

                      I’m sure your so very flexible conscience will be happy with this. Meanwhile, the people who die on Monday can console themselves with the thought that it could have been worse on Tuesday.

                      Tell that to the survivors of the folk you watched die on Sunday. Especially as Monday and tuesday might still turn to shit for them.

                      Sometimes all we can do is try to save the “now” in front of us, and work on “tomorrow’s maybes” tomorrow.

                      No, I don’t think that you delight in mass murder as you suggest I do. I think that you’re naive.

                      Oh, I never said or even suggested you “delight” in mass murder, by the way. That’s another figment of your imagination.


                      But if I wrote that I would be telling a lie

                      Well, shouldn’t you be consistent?

                      Pretty much have been. But at least the discussion has inched forwards this time.

                      Now tell me about your delicate feelings. Are you offended?

                      Stop trying to chat me up with your dirty talk.

                      Anyway, I’ve got to go now, probably won’t be back online until tomorrow, so don’t fret in my absence.

                    • Rhinocrates

                      really? Because you get quite impatient if I don’t give you attention immediately […] don’t fret in my absence.

                      It’s revealing that you suggest that I might be gay as if that were important. That certainly says a lot about you.

                    • swordfish

                      Christ, just like 2011: Labour sleepwalking to yet another defeat.

                    • McFlock

                      really? Because you get quite impatient if I don’t give you attention immediately […] don’t fret in my absence.

                      It’s revealing that you suggest that I might be gay as if that were important. That certainly says a lot about you.

                      What’s revealing is that the comment dealing with your personal obsession with me struck so close to the bone that you had to reply to it twice. Basically, you either want to date me, or if a tory ever outs my real life identity there’s a fair chance I’ll find a pet rabbit boiling on my stove.

                • just saying

                  Fifty million lives CV. By his own hands.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Ah yes, that was it. I vaguely know the person who helped him formulate that cheesy line as well.

                  • Rhinocrates

                    Amazing. Joseph Stalin by some estimates, killed that many. Imagine that David Shearer countered that! He should be Pope!

                • SHG (not Colonial Viper)

                  “Key went overseas, made $50 million, and brought it back to NZ; Shearer went overseas and left his millions in a Chase Manhattan account”

                  Now there’s an election tagline for you.

                  • Rhinocrates

                    They’ll use it. Sure, “morally” Mumblefuck’s in the right… perhaps… but meanwhile, he ensures that Goff, King, Mallard, Hipkins et al will all have the best deck chairs at the bottom of the Atlantic.

        • prism 7.3.1.2

          Olwyn and CV
          Good analysis I think.

    • Rhinocrates 7.4

      seriously bad polling

      Hmmm, at my most cynical, could it be that relegating the most “uncomfortable” folks to the lower end of the ranking is a strategy to eliminate them if the magical forces of historical inevitability do not decree that the next election is LINO’s (Labour In Name Only) next term? It’s something that may backfire if they win on electorate votes.

  8. Rhinocrates 8

    I’m wondering about this myself. How much is speculation? Personally, I can see a substantial overlap between the “careerist” and the “right”, who would all probably call themselves “centrist” and “pragmatic” or “realist”, even if there is a great deal of euphemy and delusion in such self-labelling.

    What evidence is there in their voting records?

    One other thing. Its about Policy not Personality.

    Ah well, should be indeed… I think that Helen Clark’s promotion of Michael Cullen versus Mumblefuck’s demotion of David Cunliffe tells us all we need to know about that.

    Actually, I think that Mumblefuck’s UN experience is not a boon, but a liability, as Key’s is in being a bankster. He’s used to being the pointy-haired boss in a bureaucracy and has no understanding that political parties always have factions because they are supposed to be representative. Factions are inevitable and maybe even a good thing. The fact that he can’t accommodate them is a more disturbing sign of his basic incompetence than his brain fade over his UN account.

  9. John Williams 9

    Total unmitigated crap once again from Eddie. He has never got anything right.

  10. Raymond a Francis 10

    I am surprised at your putting David Clark and Megan Woods in The Careerist Left wing
    Any proof other than a gut feeling?

    Other than that no argument will your basic premiss

    • Lanthanide 10.1

      Yeah, I’d agree on that. I think he’s just lumped them in together as an “everyone else” category. Surprised to see little in the Left group too.

      • Daveo 10.1.1

        Clark is a highly competent MP and I’m sure he fits in the ‘some good people in this faction’ part of the analysis. He’s very close to Robertson though (was the celebrant at Robertson’s civil union) so is in with his lot. Woods is in the faction but only loosely.

        Little’s politics are strongly left. He’s very much his own man though and doesn’t easily fit into any of the factions. What is known is that he’s supported Cunliffe from time to time, including in the initial leadership race against Shearer. Have to agree with the post though, all you could say is he’s a wild card with Left tendencies.

  11. Kevin Welsh 11

    Careerist? Pfft.

    The minute they are identified they should be out on their ear. Anyone with careerist aspirations is not there for the good of their electorate, their party or New Zealand. They are there for themselves and by default have no business being in politics.

    • geoff 11.1

      The careerist label is a bit of a laugh. As far as I can tell they’re all careerists to some extent.

  12. Nick 12

    “As for the Left faction, you may be wondering why they failed to trigger a leadership vote in February when their faction had one more vote than they needed”

    Also pretty sure that Little is a Shearer supporter.

    • Colonial Viper 12.1

      Little spoke out strongly against the tougher 60% Leadership confidence threshold. Too much instability and rocking of the boat by the membership he seemed to think. Can’t we just please leave the Labour Parliamentarians alone to do what they know best?

  13. pollywog 13

    Fa’afoi is a tool.

    One of them… ‘yes massa how high you want me to jump for you’ niggas IMHO.

    I’ve yet to hear him say, do, or write anything worthy of compliment.

  14. Darien Fenton 14

    Eddie, why don’t you spend your time writing about things that matter instead of making stuff up – for example, the youth rates that passed last week? Didn’t see a peep on the Standard, except for a rerun of I/S.

    • pollywog 14.1

      This does matter and imagine if someone had said that to Einstein?

      • Darien Fenton 14.1.1

        It doesn’t matter if it’s not true.

        • pollywog 14.1.1.1

          Oh you mean like Iraq’s WMD’s and Bush and Blair’s lies?

        • Colonial Weka 14.1.1.2

          “It doesn’t matter if it’s not true.”

          So put up your own post or comment about what is true, or why Eddie’s post isn’t true. Telling ts authors (or commenters, or anyone really) to STFU doesn’t work here, and is a bad look for you.

          • Darien Fenton 14.1.1.2.1

            OK then I will be the one who STFU – lesson learned

            • Rhinocrates 14.1.1.2.1.1

              Translation: “Waaaaaah!!!!”

              You wonder why so few think you have any backbone?

            • Daveo 14.1.1.2.1.2

              To be fair, you haven’t put forward an alternative model. From what I’ve seen and heard around the party Eddie’s simply laid out what everyone knows. So, if as you say, it’s not true, then enlighten us as to what is happening in caucus. Because to everyone outside caucus it looks like a fcking mess crossed with a baffling tolerance of incompetence and lack of strategic direction. Come on, Darien, tell us what’s really happening if this piece really is so off the mark.

              • The Fan Club

                Come on Daveo, there’s no way Darien can talk about what goes on in caucus.

                • quartz

                  That’s not quite true, my friend works for Labour and is always talking about what happened in caucus.

                  • The Fan Club

                    “my friend works for Labour talking” is very different to “MP writing over their own name”.

            • Colonial Viper 14.1.1.2.1.3

              That’s not going to fly with this crowd, Darien.

              If you read what Colonial Weka wrote, her suggestion was to

              put up your own post or comment about what is true, or why Eddie’s post isn’t true

              Which is very different from not welcoming input from you.

              nb you may want to explain about caucus rules which (in theory) prevent Labour MPs from commenting on what their colleagues said or did not say in caucus.

              • Colonial Weka

                +1

                Darien, I for one would be interested in your perspective which is why I suggested you write your own response to Eddie’s post. And as CV suggests having a Labour MP explain how things work internally would useful.

            • The Al1en 14.1.1.2.1.4

              Caucus had the chance to make Shearer to do the same and GTFO, but failed, again.

              Did you vote for him?
              If so, why?
              And if so, will you hold yourself accountable for your error post 2014 and resign (if you get a high enough list place to suffer the poll night carnage)?

              Tell all caucus members to get on here and answer the same three questions.

              • The Al1en

                Secret vote = Cowardly covering your arses and protecting your salaries and pension plans.

                Don’t like the topic list, stand by your conviction and announce who voted for who, so we all know for next time.
                Bet you don’t though, pay cheques the lot of you.

            • Rhinocrates 14.1.1.2.1.5

              Remember Fenton – you’re working for us, and if you’re not, you’re fired! How would redundancy feel? A lot of us know about it already, unlike you.

              So you want to throw your toys out of the cot? Whoop-de-fucking-do. Do your job.

        • JK 14.1.1.3

          I have yet to see some evidence, Darien, that it is not true. It was clear from the annual conference in Auckland where the factions lay, and who was in what faction.

          I would also like to see some evidence that Labour has policies which will help the disadvantaged, those in need of decent rental housing, those on low working incomes, and policies which will strength our public health and state housing, and state education systems, We need to know that Labour will reverse the current horrific changes proposed for the RMA if they go ahead.

          And I don’t want to see Shearer saying “I will do this, or I will do that” I’d rather see him saying things like “we’re in this together, we’ll work together” and then have him take us along with us on a vision of well considered policies which will work for Aotearoa-New Zealand.

          Labour is in limbo – and the peasants are getting restless. For some of us peasants, there are alternatives on voting day and you might find us deserting you in your hour of need if you don’t all hurry up and start looking left, instead of central-right.

    • Rhinocrates 14.2

      Ooh, a press release. Goody! Yeah right. Elections are vending machines. Insert enough press releases and then government falls out.

      • Rhinocrates 14.2.1

        Can’t edit so amendment:

        So NO, show that that you’re an alternative government in waiting.

        ALTERNATIVE – ie., different in substance, not detail.

        GOVERNMENT IN WAITING – i.e., competent.

        NACTMP have fucked up and will continue to do so… but how will you be better instead of being due to your “brand” being “nicer”?

        All I see is “LINO will be a nicer disaster!”

    • karol 14.3

      Darien, the re-run of I/S on youth rates shows it’s an important issue for TS posters and commenters. We authors are voluntary contributors, unpaid, and most work full-time. We don’t co-ordinate between us on our posts, just post when we have something to say on an issue, and time to put it into a post.

      If you scroll down the main page you will see there’s been posts on diverse issues of importance to the left.

    • QoT 14.4

      Darien, even sitting MPs should consider reading the policy when commenting.

      A partial list of these self-martyrdom offenses include:-

      …Abusing the sysop or post writers on their own site – including telling us how to run our site or what we should write. This is viewed as self-evident stupidity, and should be added as a category to the Darwin Awards.

    • karol 14.5

      So, in response to being labelled as a careerist leftie, Fenton jumps in and asks why more attention isn’t being paid to an issue on which she is shadow spokesperson?

  15. Ad 15

    If this is the case (and I no longer believe it is the case since the leadership question is settled until after 2014) why not spell out your path to unity? We’ve had thousands of posts about this kind of thing.

    If it is not the case, surely you only have two options:

    – Mutually Assured Destruction as well documented before us in the Australian federal Labor Party and upcoming reshuffle and elections

    – Disciplined unity

    There may well be a myriad of minor variants, but the Aussie Crean scenario vs NZ Constitutional leadership change process seem to be the stark counterfactuals.

    • Colonial Viper 15.1

      I know, I’m also disappointed that the peasants are revolting instead of living up to their assigned roles.

      • pollywog 15.1.1

        Peasant needs a new job description.

      • Ad 15.1.2

        Well the point is here that the peasants were never revolting; in fact they hardly smelled of anything at all.

        Whereas in Australia, they always revolting because they are always rotten from within.

        There doesn’t seem any need to choose between one or the other, until you have to run something really big. Then you have to choose. Both Labour and Labor have. And in Australia you can see the results of that choice in 6 weeks, writ large in the writs.

        • Colonial Viper 15.1.2.1

          Then you have to choose. Both Labour and Labor have.

          Approx 24 Labour Party members in total confirmed the current leadership in Feb. Not enough to settle questions of legitimacy of process or leadership.

          • McFlock 15.1.2.1.1

            actually, being >60%, yeah it was.

            • Colonial Viper 15.1.2.1.1.1

              Funny thing is: questions of political legitimacy can’t be waved away by saying so.

              • McFlock

                True.

                I mean, even if the process was consistent with the constitution and had been re-examined by national conference just a few months previously, some people would still assume that illegalities went on because their candidate didn’t win.

    • ghostrider888 15.2

      portents indeed

  16. Interesting post Eddie.

    I am fascinated by the sudden appearance of a couple of new commentators who allegedly know Labour’s internal workings better than you.

    And you seem to have hit a nerve with Darien. I wonder why?

    • Darien Fenton 16.1

      Micky – the nerve is that tens of thousands of young workers will face pay cuts from 1 May. Maybe I’m just over-sensitive.

      • Daveo 16.1.1

        Darien, I’m sure they’d accept a guest post from you or anyone else involved in the campaign. People are busy, they have lives, they aren’t paid for this and they can’t cover everything. Don’t hate on them, help them out.

      • JK 16.1.2

        Darien – the other nerve that’s been hit is the news tonight that Labour is NOT going to continue funding the Cullen superannuation fund, and IS going to continue with the nonsense that NZ needs to raise the age of superannuation to 67 years. That is a scenario straight out of Dame Shipley’s report – a rightwing report if ever there was one.
        With unemployment rising, redundancies all over the place, those people just over the age of 50 who are being made redundant now, have little chance of getting other jobs – and you, the Labour caucus, are saying they’ll have to wait until they’re 67 before they can get superannuation. Doesn’t seem fair, does it ? Let alone all those people who do physical work and lose out on super because they die at a relatively young age. That’s not fair either.
        WHEN is Labour going to be fair to its people ? Answer me that, Darien – all those workers you purport to serve ……..

        • Colonial Viper 16.1.2.1

          Labour buys into the same neoliberal orthodox monetary framework as National, albeit with more consideration for softening some of the social effects.

          Re: raising the retirement age to 67.

          Yet another version of making the younger generation pay more and more for the boomers to have easier lives.

          • Colonial Viper 16.1.2.1.1

            Simple question – why not raise an additional $1B in taxation per annum to put into the Cullen fund, instead of increasing the super age?

            Anyways we have too many young workers now and not enough jobs. We need to be retiring people out of the workforce earlier, not later.

            • tricledrown 16.1.2.1.1.1

              if we saved 3% more a year by increasing the tax take in 20 years we could abolish taxes and run govt on the savings interest!

              • Colonial Viper

                I like the plan in theory, but major central banks around the world are punishing savers and rewarding speculators by forcing interest rates down to 0%.

      • Rhinocrates 16.1.3

        Maybe I’m just over-sensitive.

        Ooh, are your delicate feelings hurt? Spare us the sarcasm and sanctimony. That attitude of “you don’t appreciate me enough” is too obvious. What is Labour’s policy? Will you actually implement it? Will you?

        Do your job.

  17. Draco T Bastard 17

    While it’s clear something major needs to change in Labour, it’ll require either Shearer or Robertson to feel that it’s in their interests to break the relationship.

    Which means that it’s in everyone else’s favour to tell Labour to go fuck themselves. Find another party of the left that resonates with you and join them.

    • Rhinocrates 17.1

      I wonder how long “Our turn!” and “Winston to the rescue!” are going to sustain their cognitive dissonance?

    • Ad 17.2

      That philosophy of “you have to burn the village in order to save the village” has been the refuge of armies of tyrants and idealists alike for a while. One side of Gillard’s Labor has indeed told the leadership to “go fuck themselves”.

      And as a result, they royally have.

      • Colonial Viper 17.2.1

        You’ve drawn the wrong lesson. This is what you get by choosing the wrong leader.

        That philosophy of “you have to burn the village in order to save the village” has been the refuge of armies of tyrants and idealists alike for a while.

        This is where you’ve gone off the rails.

      • Draco T Bastard 17.2.2

        There’s plenty of other parties and Labour will only learn when it starts losing a proportion of votes. It’s not doing that ATM, it’s losing voters but the proportions are remaining remarkably static.

        • Colonial Weka 17.2.2.1

          “it’s losing voters but the proportions are remaining remarkably static.”

          What? How does that work?

    • marty mars 17.3

      + 1 because this shit is going to go on right up to the next election and the one after that meanwhile the disadvantaged in our society continue to suffer.

      • muzza 17.3.1

        Too right Marty, but you will be able to log onto TS, and read a commentary about all thats gone wrong, like a timeline to the demise of NZ inc, and hear all about the nasty things being done to the disadvantaged!

        In any case who will the disadvantaged be in say, 4/5 years time!

  18. muzza 18

    How many of these in any group, actually understand/appreciate the serious danger that NZ is in!

    Who inside the listed groups will speak out against the the monetary supply scam etc?

    Who is the most corrupted inside the listed groups – (can be more than one)

    Who at TS, believes there is any chance a single name of the listed groups, have the ticker, to come out and tell the public, just how corrupted NZ has become, and what part parliament is playing in the corruption!

    Anyone, nah, thought not!

    • Colonial Viper 18.1

      How many of these in any group, actually understand/appreciate the serious danger that NZ is in!

      Business as usual continues. Reassure the middle class that their expectations of present and future comfort are in safe hands.

  19. Swim Between the Flags 19

    I’m a bit of a lurker recently but have always enjoyed reading The Standard. In this case though, I’d like to ask Eddie for more detail as to why he believes this is an important post, or at least what people reading it feel like they take away from it?

    It looks to be nothing more than speculation (second hand/third hand whispers based on personal opinions), yet beyond stirring up readers to take a certain perspective on the names listed in each group, what purpose does it serve?

    From my interactions with some of the people listed in this post I suppose I can add my own speculation. Yes there are people within caucus who seem more friendly with some than others but I could hardly draw the conclusion that this means they are sitting in smoke filled rooms plotting against one another.

    In many instances it seems names have been dropped into ‘factions’ based on nothing more than MPs having good personal relationships with one another. Like in any workplace, not everybody is going to get along like best mates and personalities will always clash, but Labour MPs act professionally and take their job seriously because they realise how important it is for the left to win in 2014. How often is it the media, and more recently the blogs, putting forward and fueling the destructive narrative and how often is it the MPs? The vast majority of Labour MPs are getting on with the job.

    So they’re not sitting around plotting, they’re working hard for New Zealanders. The political landscape is difficult for the left at the moment, not just in New Zealand but around the world. We need to discuss how to maneuver across this landscape as one coherent whole leading into the next election, not quibble over who’s holding up the flag.

    What is the purpose of The Standard? There’s always some interesting content and stimulating discussion, but there’s often a little too much self-defeating, circle jerking speculation. This post just seems too far on the self-defeating side of spectrum. In saying that, it’s just my 2c and I respect TS and the fact that authors can post what they feel is important.

    • JK 19.1

      I think if you read the speeches that certain MPs have given over the last 12 months or so, Swim Between the Flags, you’d understand – perhaps – why Eddie has labelled certain MPs as rightwing, others as left, and still others as careerists. If MPs say certain things that go against ingrained Labour principles, then they’re going to be looked at sideways, and speculation as to their real motives.
      You say the vast majority of Labour MPs are getting on with the job – but they seem a bit slack most times, to me. They’re not pushing Labour policy or principles. The Greens, and Winston are doing their job for them, and sometimes even Hone gets in on the act.

    • Alanz 19.2

      2c? Is that all? Shearer should outsource his comms work to you.

      Thanks, Eddie. A few friends, interested in politics, have been talking about this and we came up with a list that only goes part way towards yours which is more comprehensive. We did come up with similar groupings .. but we had a couple of little categories for a handful of MPs .. and interestingly, their names have come up in comments elsewhere here.

  20. Pascal's bookie 20

    The fact that connected LP people seem to think that this post is the problem to be publicly attacked,

    rather than seeing it as a symptom of a problem to be identified and fixed,

    is yet another symptom of the problem.

    • The Fan Club 20.1

      I like this post. It sets out pretty clearly the people who’re doing a good job and the people who’re off in the middle of nowhere fucking around. Of course, Eddie & MS & so-on are fucking around in the fantasyland where one day they’ll win the faction fight they keep begging to have, but the fact that they are posting this kind of crap on the internet is a pretty good indicator they never will. If you have the numbers you use them, if you don’t you talk about them.

      • quartz 20.1.1

        If you have the numbers you use them, if you don’t you talk about them.

        Ooh, look at you all man of the world.

        • The Fan Club 20.1.1.1

          Hey I’m not the guy posting my (inaccurate) whip counts on the internet. I am pretty sure my faction’s naught/nice lists are both accurate (why we win) and also kept close to the chest.

          • vto 20.1.1.1.1

            So mr successful fan club – when do we (i.e. joe public) get to see something decent from you? Some talk about the important issues? The ponzi scheme that is our banking system? The law allowing your pricks to plunder our bank accounts? The smashing of the RMA that is going on right now? The outright lies that are told by this government? When is “your faction” going to actually do something worth listening to or looking at? When are you going to stand up to Key and English and call them liars? Reverse the Ecan theft?

            Seems to me not much matter who or what faction is leading te labour party at most particular points in time as the labour party has a momentum built up since its birth and it is that momentum that keeps it going, not much else.

            And just for final fling, given this is all about the personal – I don’t give a flying fuck about whether you have got the numbers at the moment in your silly caucusage. What I give a fuck about is what you are going to do abotu all sorts of BIG ISSUES. Issues that you, “the winners” are doing fuck all about. Sharpen up fool – your votes are far from guaranteed. Your personal crusade will end up being your demise.

            rant endeth (for now)

            • muzza 20.1.1.1.1.1

              You won’t hear anything useful VTO, its not in the genetic makeup of those hanging off the coat tails of corruption to do anything other than hang on ever tighter, and stick their nose even further up the,* perceived most powerful arse* they can reach, regardless of if its the top, middle or lower hanging rectum!

      • mickysavage 20.1.2

        Fan Club … nice to see you are back. I haven’t seen you for a while, the last time was to launch another anti Cunliffe diatribe.

        • The Fan Club 20.1.2.1

          Yeah, I feel that given you guys can’t seem to accept that you lost someone has to occasionally drop by and remind you of the crushing defeats you get whenever you manage to push things to a crisis.

          • mickysavage 20.1.2.1.1

            Yep it is a real crisis when the membership gets a larger say in who the leader is …

            One question though Fan Club. You are always so aggressive with your comments, are you sure you are a member of the Labour Party and not a Nat? I have a certain expectation of how lefties should behave although regrettably it is not universal …

            • Jim Davis 20.1.2.1.1.1

              He’s a parliamentary staffer in the Robertson faction. I’d put money on him being Vic Young Labour, present or recent past. They’re swarming all over parliament at the moment. Hardly any politics, a lot of ambition, strong loyalty to Robertson and one of the main conduits of the anti-Cunliffe smears. I’ve seen enough of them in action, and I can positively smell it on TFC.

              • The Fan Club

                Hahah I mean really. Have never been a member of Vic Young Labour, never been paid a red cent by the Party or Parliament, etc.

                • felix

                  Nah, I saw you flinch there. Jim touched a nerve.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Ha!

                    TFC is fairly representative of a toxic, philosophically weak culture.

                    • The Fan Club

                      Holy fuck I mean I have my issues with Young Labour but that’s a pretty douchey thing to say about a group of young people who are putting a lot of effort into the party.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Yep. And I mean every word of it.

                      (You did say that you weren’t connected in any way with them though, right haha)

                    • Rhinocrates

                      Funnily enough, I can easily imagine Robertson conveniently forgetting his faction’s anti-Cunliffe rhetoric and saying, “Have I got a deal for you…” to David Cunliffe as a correspondent (sorry, I forget your handle)… and David Cunliffe saying “Yes, if…”

          • The Al1en 20.1.2.1.2

            “Yeah, I feel that given you guys can’t seem to accept that you lost someone has to occasionally drop by and remind you of the crushing defeats you get whenever you manage to push things to a crisis.”

            Prick. You think you’re smart ’cause the numbnuts you serve say you are. And you know it 😉

            • The Al1en 20.1.2.1.2.1

              Biggest thing to remember, if it goes to a party wide vote, you’d be fucked, and you must definitely know that.

      • Pascal's bookie 20.1.3

        Thanks for proving my point so precisely FC.

        • The Fan Club 20.1.3.1

          What, you mean the point that people who want a faction fight get one? Yeah, that point’s a good one.

          • mickysavage 20.1.3.1.1

            I never wanted a faction fight. Man I lived through the 1980s …

            Helen showed how to do it. No factions, promotion on ability and get the best out of everyone, good socialist principles …

            And fan club you obviously don’t see the irony but you proved PB’s comment perfectly.

            • The Fan Club 20.1.3.1.1.1

              Micky, if you don’t want a faction fight, then why are you all so obsessed with whip counts and factional classifications?

              • Um Fan Club citation needed …

                Apart from saying “interesting post Eddie …” I am not sure that I have said anything.

                Go on, point out where I have been obsessed with whip counts and factional classifications.

                • The Fan Club

                  MS, “you all” kinda implies the plural: you and eddie and all the other Cunliffites lurking around.

                  • Funny when you said “Micky, if you don’t want a faction fight, then why … ” I thought you were referring to me.

                    So you are saying I am part of a group some of who are obsessed with whip counts and factional classifications and therefore I am as well?

                    Care to rephrase?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      So you are saying I am part of a group some of who are obsessed with whip counts and factional classifications and therefore I am as well?

                      Remember, TFC said that his handlers are the specialists at that kind of obsessive factional work.

                    • The Fan Club

                      Not really. I think everyone knows exactly where you sit in the factional game (that is to say, a rather expendable pawn of Cunliffe’s).

                    • muzza

                      What tweezers like TFC don’t understand, is that the biggest sycophants are the most expendable pawns!

                      Or perhaps they do understand, but are invested so emotionally, into the arse-hole in front of them, they can’t recognise the smell of fresh air, or danger for that matter!

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Not really. I think everyone knows exactly where you sit in the factional game (that is to say, a rather expendable pawn of Cunliffe’s).

                      Yes, thank you 🙂

          • Pascal's bookie 20.1.3.1.2

            the point that people who want a faction fight get one

            Nope. The point that “connected LP people seem to think that this post is the problem to be publicly attacked, rather than seeing it as a symptom of a problem to be identified and fixed”.

            There wouldn’t be posts like this if there wasn’t a problem.
            The fact this post exists, and has so many comments, shows how shit the leadership team is.

            And here you are, doing what?

            Nothing good for the LP as far as I can see.

  21. TeRohePotae 21

    Can you guys stop ruining my Labour Party with petty name calling, list making, and posturing. How about you all focus on attacking the Tories and bringing a much needed change of Government to this country.

    • Jim Davis 21.1

      We’re fed up with the people in charge who are ruining the Labour Party. It’s the pathetic poll ratings, the lack of coherent left wing principles and the vacancy in the leadership that are ruining the party; a post on a left wing blog site is the least of our worries.

    • QoT 21.2

      Mindblowing concept: some of us don’t accept the premise that “any” Labour-led government is a preferable alternative to a National-led government, e.g. one dependent on the Greens.

    • The Al1en 21.3

      “ruining” 😆

    • lprent 21.4

      How about you all focus on attacking the Tories and bringing a much needed change of Government to this country.

      At present the most effective way to do that appears to be to vote Green until Labour sorts its crap out in caucus. At least the Green policies appear to be coherent, not as badly poll/focus group driven, and their caucus seems to largely work together. Well at least they do when you compare their performance against the dysfunctional and incompetent state of Labour MP’s both individually and even more so in caucus.

      Basically, I’m havng a really hard time seeing the current Labour caucus being able to run an effective government without some other party providing some ideas to give them a backbone. Sure Labour would be better than the Nats. But that really isn’t that hard. And I really don’t think that choosing between incompetent blowhard conservatives and less incompetent but incoherent and vague that is the current Labour caucus is the kind of aspiration I have for my vote.

      And incidentally, it is my Labour party as well and has been since 1981 when I first voted for them, and since 1984 when I first door knocked for them, or 1992 when I first started to actively campaign for them. So it will be a bit of a change next year will be the first time I revert back to the Values party I last voted for in 1978.

      Problem is that I see fuckall party at present in the Labour party and far too many MPs who’d I have a real problem saying what they stand for. I don’t even haven’t agree with their ideas – I never really did with Helen Clark’s caucus. I’d just like them to show that they have some frigging ideas that aren’t half-arsed and that they have thought through. In other words,that aren’t like their quarter acre dream houses for $300k in Auckland nonsense.

    • Peter 21.5

      Ruining? How interesting. Your Labour Party must be weak indeed if a bunch of largely anonymous bloggers, who generally criticise but suggest improvement, can actually “ruin” your party.

  22. Tiresias 22

    I’d need to know a lot more about ‘Eddie’s” credentials before giving this article much credence.

    Not that I’m greatly bothered. There are few names in the Labour Party I’ve heard of or care about as none have done very much to impinge on my awareness or given me cause to care about them. From the top down they seem ineffectual, seat-filling, party-game playing, turn-waiting empty-vessels – and to judge from what I hear from the House at Question-Time, most are still waiting on puberty.

    For most of my adult life Labour in the UK encapsulated what I believed and would have fought for, but now in the UK and NZ its just Right-Lite. In the UK many who felt like me supported the Liberal-Democrats in the last general election, as I think I would have done, and were badly, unforgivably, irredeemably betrayed. Here in NZ we fortunately have the Greens to fill that vacancy left by Labour. I hope they can learn from the Lib-Dem’s political suicide, as when the political charade fails entirely the door opens for the likes of UKIP, Bepe Grillo and Golden Dawn.

  23. Saarbo 23

    I get the impression that there are a number of Shearer supporters (TCL) in caucus who have finally lost their nerve, realise now that he is hopeless…and this is their way of squirming out of their lack of good judgement.

    Anyway, if it leads to the end of Shearer’s reign, it will be good for Labour and will improve Labours chances in 2014.

  24. deemac 24

    this article is pure kremlinology and unworthy of The Standard.
    In order to characterise MPs as right or left (let alone careerist – what does a non-careerist MP look like?) you have to produce evidence of policy differences.
    The article totally fails to do that, because there is none.
    The idea that an old hand like Cunliffe, with all his baggage as a minister, is to the left of Shearer is sheer fantasy.

    • Colonial Viper 24.1

      The idea that an old hand like Cunliffe, with all his baggage as a minister, is to the left of Shearer is sheer fantasy.

      I can only agree, seeing that after all this time we still have absolutely no idea where Shearer’s personal political economic philosophy actually lies.

      Which I find unsettling, myself.

      • SpaceMonkey 24.1.1

        David Shearer will not take the Labour Party left. A Labour Government under him will continue to sell NZ off to overseas interests. He is a plant for the elite in the same vein as John Key – different handlers, perhaps, but they share the same masters for sure.

        • Colonial Viper 24.1.1.1

          Indeed, that’s my working assumption; happy to be proven wrong. All it would take is him speaking to 2 or 3 solid left wing policies in the next few months. Raising the retirement age is a bad start.

  25. fatty 25

    I hope someone digs some dirt on Shearer fast and he gets thrown out in disgrace…but it won’t be a Tory digging the dirt. Someone do it, please

  26. The Al1en 26

    “we still have absolutely no idea where Shearer’s personal political economic philosophy actually lies.”

    Well at least we now know he’s retarded when it comes to declaring offshore bank accounts with at least us$50,000 in them.
    Oh, and he that he doesn’t like the idea of a beneficiary doing home maintenance.

    • Colonial Viper 26.1

      A spokesperson for science and innovation who doesn’t think that internet communities and social media is relevant.

      • Colonial Weka 26.1.1

        A political party leader who thinks that people who talk on the internet don’t vote.

    • SpaceMonkey 26.2

      No… he’s declaring his suitability for the Prime Minister’s office by showing he can brain fade with the best of them.

  27. AucklandBasedLabourActivist 27

    Thank you TS for this. The last time I read this site was in 2009. A few caucus members and committed MP followers (ie Young Labour ‘hacks’) on my Facebook feed constantly degrade the contributions of this blog, and tell us (active party folk) that it’s not worth reading. Well, after seeing a comment from an MP on Facebook tonight…I decided to have a look.

    After reading this it sums up so much about why, as a long time (and previously senior) party official, I feel so disillusioned with Labour’s internal politics.

    This sums up why Labour is best to lose the next election, than win it. And it’s incredibly hard to say that, but the reality stands that under David Shearer’s leadership are individuals who are effectively holding the party to ransom due to their own vendettas against individuals and their own personal ambitions. It’s insidious and it must stop now.

    I am seeing countless people leave in my Auckland community shifting to the Greens or disengaging completely because of the toxic attitude and behavior of MPs like Darien Fenton, Clare Curran, but very much led by Grant Robertson (people don’t realise it at face value), Annette King, Trevor Mallard, Phil Goff and co.

    Their behavior at the 2012 conference sums up their own ambitions. For their own hatred of David Cunliffe and fighting for their own personal political careers, they are prepared to tear apart the Labour Party, disrespect party members, manipulate long time activists and union affiliate members for their own political game.

    For the likes of Darien Fenton. The fact she’s come onto this forum shows her poor political judgement, but most particularly it shows she’s worried. She is very quickly losing credibility amongst her own core Labour support (from what I’m told, largely because of her antics at the Labour Party conference where she tried to manipulate union affiliates members and significantly disrespected affiliate leadership). Darien knows that this blog post exposes the realities of Labour’s internal situation. There are activists on social media saying this is satirical, saying this post is wacky and completely loony. Well, again, as a disillusioned former senior party official, it’s hard to write this so publicly, but this blog tells it for what it is. For activists to simply ignore this and say it’s far from reality, shows they are so stuck in their own (mostly Wellington) political bubble and interested in their own agendas than the Party as a whole.

    The bottom line however is that Labour need to change considerably in order for us to win the next election. The careerists need a slap in the face and Grant Robertson needs to stop holding the party back while he lines up the numbers in his favour.

    • The Fan Club 27.1

      This is basically the faction fight: a rather unholy alliance of Auckland based Clark-era apparatchiks who never quite made it and far-left unionists who’ve filtered back in as the Alliance has died off against the rest of the party. Fortunately, the rest of the party is winning.

      It was Cunliffe that started the fight at conference and when he inevitably lost he can only blame himself.

      • lprent 27.1.1

        Looks to me like a pyrrhic “victory”. The type where the battle is won which merely ensures that the war is lost.

        • George D 27.1.1.1


          This is basically the faction fight: a rather unholy alliance of Auckland based Clark-era apparatchiks who never quite made it and far-left unionists who’ve filtered back in as the Alliance has died off against the rest of the party. Fortunately, the rest of the party is winning.

          TFC, that may be so. But do you realise that Auckland makes up half your membership (and most of that half are Pacific, desperately underrepresented and continually patronised by the leadership) and one third of the country. Soon it will be 40%. You’ll never win enough votes in the blue provinces to get government, but if you depress the activists in Auckland, you depress the turnout, and you squander government.

          Nevermind also that “far-left” unionists (presumably people who believe in things like award wages and overtime, as retained under Australia’s far-left Howard Government) make up many of the rest of your activists. Take them out, and you only have rusted on loyalists, most of whom don’t have the energy to run the campaigns you need, and cheerleading Vic Labour youngsters, who are enthusiastic but don’t have the experience or nous (in most cases) to

          Dismiss the majority of your party, sure. But you’ll get people like Lynn, above, publicly declaring that they’re leaving the ship. As I said in a post I made earlier this year I’d rather he and others were in Labour, actually, getting out your vote and pushing the left over the line – we (the Greens) don’t need the talent. You also don’t need to have these fights in public, but if you do you need to find a way to conciliate quickly.

          • lprent 27.1.1.1.1

            …publicly declaring that they’re leaving the ship.

            Not so much leaving the ship as going off and working on things other than the NZLP. At present they are too damn confused, completely incoherent on policy and direction, riven by silly internal divisions, and would only waste what time I give it. My monthly donation goes out as per normal. My membership presumably will still be updated. If there are things that only require advice rather than actual time (that I could expend more productively on something else), then I’d donate it.

            But I’m really not inclined to reward the dumbarses who have blindly been driving them to this pass. So I will vote elsewhere.

            • Anne 27.1.1.1.1.1

              My sentiments too 1prent.

              There are a large number of people (some comment here some don’t) who have been in and around the Labour Party for much, much longer than at least half the current Caucus. We had outside careers, but we gave a great deal to Labour over the years. In the course of doing so we saw it all – the good, the bad and the ugly. There isn’t much going on we haven’t already witnessed or experienced before. In other words, together we are a veritable hive of knowledge and wisdom. Yet it seems many in this present Caucus think so highly of themselves… they believe they know it all and rarely seek any of us out for our advice or opinions. Instead they turn to individuals whose knowledge and understanding of the NZ Labour Party and its history is practically zilch.

              It’s my view that if they had had the presence of mind to speak to more of their predecessors and long-serving members, the NZ Labour Party would be in a much stronger and more stable state today.

          • The Fan Club 27.1.1.1.2

            George, you don’t really get the split do you? It’s not Auckland as whole I’m talking about: it’s a small clique that was very dependent on Clark for patronage, and has now taken Cunliffe over as patron.

            If you look at Auckland based MPs, most of them back Shearer. Most Auckland activists back Shearer, or at least accept that he’s the leader at the moment. It’s only quite a small group that’s obsessed with this last-ditch destabilization effort.

            • Olwyn 27.1.1.1.2.1

              What you don’t understand, TFC, is that not everyone is playing parlour games or seeking patronage. Such activities may be characteristic of the milieu you move in, but this is not the case for most people. People like or don’t like Shearer, Cunliffe, Robertson, etc. for all sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with insider faction-building or patronage.

              • The Fan Club

                Look, ABLA is blatantly someone who thought they were playing the game. That’s the kind of person who ended up a “senior party official” under Clark.

                • felix

                  It’s pretty obvious reading ABLAs comments and reading yours who’s playing the game.

                  Ever since you’ve turned up here you’ve done two things consistently:

                  1. Bragged about your special inside information, upper-level contacts, and mover-shaker status, and

                  2. Fervently denied all of the above.

                  And I agree with Olwyn. We’re not all part of your fucking factions and power games and oh so intriguing tactical manoeuvres. Plenty of us don’t like Shearer for the simple reason that he’s quite shit.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Holding an opinion like that, you must be a Cunliffe groupie QED

                  • The Fan Club

                    The Fan Club’s always been clear that we’re just fans. Paying attention gets you a long way, darling felix.

                    PS I do enjoy Anne’s assumption that ABLA is a male; I suspect ABLA is very definitely not a male…

                • Anne

                  You presumptuous creep!

                  How do you know anything about ABLA’s background. It probably goes back many years perhaps even before Helen Clark. He makes loads of sense… you make none.

                  For a while it was funny reading your obnoxious crap but I, for one, have had enough. I think it’s time TFC was removed permanently from this site.

            • George D 27.1.1.1.2.2

              It’s my understanding that there are a range of sentiments among in Auckland. Some of those people are upset at the way things have gone thus far, some are not. If it’s more than a handful, that’s a problem. It’s more than a handful.

              It’s up to you to work out how many they are, and to work out a way to repair the damage. I don’t know what that is – a range of actions have been suggested, all of which require some compromise from all. But even as an outsider I know that trying to beat them into submission won’t work.

              • The Fan Club

                The thing is George, they pulled some shit at annual conference that just isn’t ok to do. There’s got to be some recognition that they wanted a fight, and that’s what they got. Which, like, sucks, but also, MS and ABLA and so-on have to take some responsibility, and they really are not taking that on.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Fuck off, the people who pulled shit at annual conference was your crew. Curran et al.

                  I’m looking forwards to Christchurch already. It’s gonna be a world of fun.

                  • hush minx

                    So conference is in chch then? Dates I’m presuming are early November? Bet they avoid the 5th November though!
                    What will be interesting given last year is whether those who got up and active can be bothered doing the same again this year, or whether the apathy dictates that they find a quiet life instead.

      • millsy 27.1.2

        So I take it that you think that Labour should be National-lite then. That is the impression I get from historical analysis of your posts.

        • Colonial Viper 27.1.2.1

          TFC is only interested in winning internal political battles and defeating the other. Actually governing a country in the present and future interests of the people hasn’t occured to him.

      • mickysavage 27.1.3

        Funny that the desire to make the leadership selection process more democratic should be described as a “fight”.

        • Peggity 27.1.3.1

          Not funny just sad.

        • The Fan Club 27.1.3.2

          Hahaha very funny Micky, I’d call going on Morning Report and trash talking about the Party asking for a fight, wouldn’t you?

    • Colonial Viper 27.2

      ABLA thanks for commenting with your thoughts. Glad you decided to check TS out again.

      I am seeing countless people leave in my Auckland community shifting to the Greens or disengaging completely because of the toxic attitude and behavior of MPs like Darien Fenton, Clare Curran, but very much led by Grant Robertson (people don’t realise it at face value), Annette King, Trevor Mallard, Phil Goff and co.

      Yep.

      If Labour no longer remains to fulfill its historic mission, then its time pretending is over.

    • GeorgeG 27.3

      AucklandBasedLabourActivist ,thank you.

    • pollywog 27.4

      Fwiw I’ve decided to back Shearer in the meantime…

      …not his team or whoever, just him as leader!

    • JK 27.5

      “The bottom line however is that Labour need to change considerably in order for us to win the next election. The careerists need a slap in the face and Grant Robertson needs to stop holding the party back while he lines up the numbers in his favour.”

      Thanks ABLA – you have summed up what’s been happening very well, along with what happened at the conference.

      Whether the Labour caucus can change is debateable – I’m not holding my breath.

    • Anne 27.6

      The last time I read this site was in 2009. A few caucus members and committed MP followers (ie Young Labour ‘hacks’) on my Facebook feed constantly degrade the contributions of this blog, and tell us (active party folk) that it’s not worth reading.

      That doesn’t surprise me ABLA.

      There are some very intelligent and insightful people who post and comment on this site. They provide thought provoking ideas and are not afraid to be critical when criticism is deserved. Add to that a substantial dose of witticisms and amusing anecdotes and this blog-site is a twice daily must read. Sure, it has its share of dross too, but that is easily glossed over and ignored.

      The current Labour leadership and their party member sycophants are very scared of The Standard. That is why they find it necessary to vilify the site at every opportunity. I hope you will pass the word on to your friends and acquaintances that it is well worth reading…

      • Peter 27.6.1

        And honestly, the worst they can do is send their MPs and advisors in, on taxpayer salaries, to attack the posters, or sometimes add your name, or pseudonym to a blacklist. Very occasionally, MPs might raise complaints with the ruling NZ Council of the NZLP, in order to try and muzzle posters. That last attempt backfired spectacularly on the MP involved.

        • Rhinocrates 27.6.1.1

          We all know it, but let’s say it out loud. Let’s name them, because like Paula Bennett, they don’t believe in discretion:

          Clare Curran.

    • Rhinocrates 27.7

      Thanks ABLA. That’s enlightening, if depressing. I’m afraid that the right wing or careerist Labour caucus has drunk the Kool-Aid as it were… or to be just a little less obscure, as was said of Arthur “Bomber” Harris, they confuse advice for interference, criticism for sabotage and evidence for propaganda.. Honestly, I do not know if a LINO-led government will be any better than Key’s mob. That mob is awful, and they’re steadily stripping the country, but politically, they’re presenting a unified front and know how to play the game.

      The only thing worse than a conspiracy is lots of incompetent conspiracies marinated in solipsism and LINO epitomises that.

  28. Bob Tambling 28

    If you want to sum up what is wrong with the NZP, compare and contrast these three websites
    http://www.labour.org.nz/
    http://www.national.org.nz/
    http://www.greens.org.nz/

    I mean the labour party site is just terrible
    A modern progressive party? Jeez

    • Colonial Viper 28.1

      They need to add a few more David Shearer images to the Labour website, to get the true presidential (not policy) feel that they are aiming for.

      • Rhinocrates 28.1.1

        As Winston Peters said of United Coiffure, it’s a personality cult in search of a personality.

    • Colonial Weka 28.2

      I like National’s Know Your Party thingy on their front page.

      • Bob Tambling 28.2.1

        From the nzlp home page
        Click here for “my” plan for Canterbury
        Should be replaced by “our” plan for Canterbury

        You can only use a “presidentail me” style aka National and Key when you have a suitable candidate .This is the problem DS is undoubtly a nice bloke and all that but he ain’t a presidential style leader .
        If the NZLP reconised that it would be a start.
        Don’t try and copy the NATs you are going to fail ,be bold ,be different be inclusive

        • Colonial Viper 28.2.1.1

          This is the problem DS is undoubtly a nice bloke

          Eh, this seems increasingly unlikely.

  29. Brad 29

    Is the same Eddie whose only consistency is being consistently wrong when it comes to anything to do with Labour and his so-called inside ‘sources’? The Eddie whose most recent failures include claiming the knowledge that Shearer will call a membership-wide vote on his leadership and that Cunliffe will be ‘punished’ by being given the health portfolio? Eddie talks a big game but never delivers

  30. kayabhs 30

    Ruth Dyson member of the ‘Careerist Left’?! The woman who championed neo-liberal reforms by running against Jim Anderton for the Presidency of the Labour Party?

    Next you’ll tell me that Cunliffe, who was a leader of a centrist caucus in ’99 and stood several leadership challenges at a time when the party was moving to the left is somehow head of the leftist faction….. oh wait.

    • prism 30.1

      kay..
      You’ve fingered the changing nature of politics in NZ with few having a clear picture of what they are about and which path they want to tread. This is a multi-choice question, and who is invigilating the results? Us I guess.

  31. Rob 31

    [Citation needed]

  32. Weell.
    methinks it’s gonna take a bit more to upset the applecart, meself. Am following the same logic but getting a slightly different result. 1st Robertson (Careerist faction) , 2nd Cunliffe (Cunners faction but will pip Robertson with the right play) , 3rd Shearer (UN faction)
    http://nowoccupy.blogspot.com/2013/03/the-labour-trifecta.html
    Just sayin. So nice to be back here; haven’t visited for a while.

  33. Stephen Judd 33

    So basically, the supposed left MP group who didn’t go for Cunliffe all get labelled “careerist”, presumably in contrast to the pure motives of the other left group who apparently don’t care about personal advancement at all. That would make Eddie’s “The Left” the most unusual caucus faction I’ve ever heard of.

    Meanwhile it’s clear that Cunliffe can inspire great personal loyalty but it’s also clear that he can really piss off some of his colleagues. Eddie lists three factors — “ideology, loyalty, and personal advancement” — but glosses over the loyalty angle in naming the groups. People are motivated by personal affection and animosity as well. As several commentators on Twitter pointed out, the party would be healthier for some clear ideological factions out in the open, but that’s not what’s determining the leadership at all.

    This is why I have trouble taking this post with a grain of salt. Although it does give helpful insight into how some people are thinking.

    • Colonial Viper 33.1

      Everybody needs to make a crust and pay the mortgage mate.

      “Careerist” indicates something other than that.

      • Stephen Judd 33.1.1

        As far as I can tell in this context it means “unwilling to support Cunliffe.” Remember, if that faction joined with the other faction, they would still be in the winning group and be advanced.

        • karol 33.1.1.1

          In the context of the Labour caucus, I take “careerist” to mean they make decisions (like choice of leader) based on their career ambitions first, with political values/principles being given low priority.

        • Daveo 33.1.1.2

          The question is how far their careers would be advanced. The ones Eddie calls ‘the careerist left’ are being well rewarded (see the recent reshuffle) in a way they probably wouldn’t with Cunliffe’s lot. They’re also aware that the Right are older and will be retiring soon, freeing up more spots. I mean, a lot of these people are ex-staffers who’ve made politics their lives. They have no experience outside of it and I’d be surprised if they have any life plans beyond it. It’s an inward-looking, narrow little clique and the interests of number one trump all else.

  34. KJT 34

    And. Some people still think we should let this bunchy of dysfunctional self seeking twits tell us what to do, unfettered by referenda or recall.

    Make no mistake though. National are equally as useless, they just have better PR firms so they can hide it better.

    If Shearer cannot bring the warring factions together, make good use of his more competent people, like Cunliff and sideline the time servers, then he is no leader.

  35. Daveo 35

    Christ Trotter’s weighed in with his take. Seems to square pretty well with this post:
    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/03/27/with-god-on-their-side-explaining-labours-factional-divisions/

  36. Skinny 36

    Looking at the current Labour MPs on offer is less than inspiring. I called for fresh faces at the end of  the last Labour Government. 

    When will the party kick out the dead wood? They have had their time to move on without being pushed, now it’s time to swing the axe wildly.

     Shall we start naming them? is the question, although they know who they are as do we!

    • McFlock 36.1

      List mps might be doable, but how would you overrule electorate committees’ choices for who they want to represent the electorate?

  37. Skinny 37

    That’s a have as HQ usually weave a path to get who they want in.

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      The Christchurch Mosque Massacres, Covid-19, deep political disillusionment, and the jealous cruelty of the intersectionists: all had a part to play in causing School Strike 4 Climate’s bright bubble of hope and passion to burst. But, while it floated above us, it was something that mattered. Something Important.   ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    3 days ago
  • The day the TV media died…
    Peter Dunne writes –  April 10 is a dramatic day in New Zealand’s history. On April 10, 1919, the preliminary results of a referendum showed that New Zealanders had narrowly voted for prohibition by a majority of around 13,000 votes. However, when the votes of soldiers still overseas ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    3 days ago
  • What's the point in Melissa Lee?
    While making coffee this morning I listened to Paddy Gower from Newshub being interviewed on RNZ. It was painful listening. His hurt and love for that organisation, its closure confirmed yesterday, quite evident.As we do when something really matters, he hasn’t giving up hope. Paddy talked about the taonga that ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    3 days ago
  • Bernard's Top 10 'pick 'n' mix' at 10:10 am on Thursday, April 11
    TL;DR: Here’s the 10 news and other links elsewhere that stood out for me over the last day, as at 10:10 am on Wednesday, April 10:Photo by Iva Rajović on UnsplashMust-read: As more than half of the nation’s investigative journalists are sacked, Newsroom’s Tim Murphy shows what it takes to ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    3 days ago
  • Gordon Campbell On Winston Peters’ Pathetic Speech At The UN
    Good grief, Winston Peters. Tens of thousands of Gazans have been slaughtered, two million are on the brink of starvation and what does our Foreign Minister choose to talk about at the UN? The 75 year old issue of whether the five permanent members should continue to have veto powers ...
    3 days ago
  • Subsidising illegal parking
    Hopefully finally over his obsession with raised crossings, the Herald’s Bernard Orsman has found something to actually be outraged at. Auckland ratepayers are subsidising the cost of towing, storing and releasing cars across the city to the tune of $15 million over five years. Under a quirk in the law, ...
    3 days ago
  • When 'going for growth' actually means saying no to new social homes
    TL;DR: These six things stood out to me over the last day in Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy, as of 7:06 am on Thursday, April 11:The Government has refused a community housing provider’s plea for funding to help build 42 apartments in Hamilton because it said a $100 million fund was used ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    3 days ago
  • https://www.politik.co.nz/?p=12733
    As the public sector redundancies rolled on, with the Department of Conservation saying yesterday it was cutting 130 positions, a Select Committee got an insight into the complexities and challenges of cutting the Government’s workforce. Immigration New Zealand chiefs along with their Minister, Erica Stanford, appeared before Parliament’s Education and ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    3 days ago
  • Bernard's six-stack of substacks at 6:06 pm on Wednesday, April 10
    TL;DR: Six substacks that stood out to me in the last day:Explaining is winning for journalists wanting to regain trust, writes is his excellent substack. from highlights Aotearoa-NZ’s greenwashing problem in this weekly substack. writes about salt via his substack titled: The Second Soul, Part I ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    3 days ago
  • EGU2024 – Picking and chosing sessions to attend virtually
    This year's General Assembly of the European Geosciences Union (EGU) will take place as a fully hybrid conference in both Vienna and online from April 15 to 19. I decided to join the event virtually this year for the full week and I've already picked several sessions I plan to ...
    3 days ago
  • But here's my point about the large irony in what Luxon is saying
    Grim old week in the media business, eh? And it’s only Wednesday, to rework an old upbeat line of poor old Neil Roberts.One of the larger dark ironies of it all has been the line the Prime Minister is serving up to anyone asking him about the sorry state of ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    3 days ago
  • Govt gives farmers something to talk about (regarding environmental issues) at those woolshed meetin...
    Buzz from the Beehive Hard on the heels of three rurally oriented ministers launching the first of their woolshed meetings, the government brought good news to farmers on the environmental front. First, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced an additional $18 million is being committed to reduce agricultural emissions. Not all ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    3 days ago
  • Climate change violates human rights
    That's the ruling of the European Court of Human Rights today: Weak government climate policies violate fundamental human rights, the European court of human rights has ruled. In a landmark decision on one of three major climate cases, the first such rulings by an international court, the ECHR raised ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • Which govt departments have grown the most?
    David Farrar writes –  There has been a 34% increase over six years in the size of the public service, in terms of EFTS. But not all agencies have grown by the same proportion. Here are the 10 with the largest relative increases between 2017 and ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    3 days ago
  • What’s to blame for the public’s plummeting trust in the media?
    Bryce Edwards writes  –  The media is in crisis, as New Zealand audiences flee from traditional sources of news and information. The latest survey results on the public’s attitude to the media shows plummeting trust. And New Zealand now leads the world in terms of those who want ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    3 days ago
  • Something Important: The Curious Death of the School Strike 4 Climate Movement.
    The Hope That Failed: The Christchurch Mosque Massacres, Covid-19, deep political disillusionment, and the jealous cruelty of the intersectionists: all had a part to play in causing School Strike 4 Climate’s bright bubble of hope and passion to burst. But, while it floated above us, it was something that mattered. Something ...
    4 days ago
  • Cow Farts and Cancer Sticks.
    What do you do if you’re a new government minister and the science is in. All of the evidence and facts are clear, but they’re not to your liking? They’re inconsistent with your policy positions and/or your spending priorities.Well, first off you could just stand back and watch as the ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    4 days ago
  • Member’s Day
    Today is a Member's day. First up is James Shaw's New Zealand Bill of Rights (Right to Sustainable Environment) Amendment Bill, which does exactly what it says on the label. Despite solid backing in international law and from lawyers and NGOs, National will likely vote it down out of pure ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • Bernard's Top 10 'pick 'n' mix' at 10:10 am on Wednesday, April 10
    Luxon in 2021 as a new MP, before his rise to PM and subsequent plummeting popularity. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: Here’s the 10 things that stood out for me from me reading over the last day, as at 10:10 am on Wednesday, April 10:Must read: Tova O’Brien describes ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 days ago
  • What’s happening with Airport to Botany
    One of the few public transport projects the current government have said they support is the Airport to Botany project (A2B) and it’s one we haven’t covered in a while so worth looking at where things are at. A business case for the project was completed in 2021 before being ...
    4 days ago
  • Bishop more popular than Luxon in Curia poll
    Count the Chrises: Chris Bishop (2nd from right) is moving up in the popularity polls. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: These six things stood out to me over the last day in Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy, as of 7:06 am on Wednesday, April 10:The National/ACT/NZ First coalition Government’s opinion poll ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 days ago
  • Silmarillion Fan Poetry: A Collection (2022-2024)
    It’s been some time since I properly exercised my poetic muscles. Prose-writing has been where it’s at for me, these past few years. Well, to get back into practice, I thought I’d write the occasional bit of jocular fan poetry, based off Tolkien’s Silmarillion… with this post being a collection ...
    4 days ago
  • At a glance – The Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO) is not causing global warming
    On February 14, 2023 we announced our Rebuttal Update Project. This included an ask for feedback about the added "At a glance" section in the updated basic rebuttal versions. This weekly blog post series highlights this new section of one of the updated basic rebuttal versions and serves as a ...
    4 days ago
  • Bryce Edwards: What’s to blame for the public’s plummeting trust in the media?
    The media is in crisis, as New Zealand audiences flee from traditional sources of news and information. The latest survey results on the public’s attitude to the media shows plummeting trust. And New Zealand now leads the world in terms of those who want to “avoid the news”. But who ...
    Democracy ProjectBy bryce.edwards
    4 days ago
  • Dead on target
    My targets for today are: 1 newsletter sent out by 4.30pm 800 words of copy delivered to a client by COB, as we say in the world of BAU1 dinner served by sunset GST returnSo far so good. Longer-term targets are: Get some website copy finished before I get on a plane on Saturday ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    4 days ago
  • The PM sets nine policy targets- and in case you missed the truancy one, Seymour has provided some...
    Buzz from the Beehive Targets and travel were a theme in the latest flow of ministerial announcements. The PM announced a raft of targets (“nine ambitious Government Targets to help improve the lives of New Zealanders”) along with plans to head for Singapore, Thailand, and Philippines. His Deputy and Foreign ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    4 days ago
  • Climate Change: Unwelcome advice
    Yesterday He Pou a Rangi Climate Change Commission released two key pieces of advice, on the 2036-40 emissions budget and the 2050 target. Both are statutorily required as part of the Zero Carbon Act budgeting / planning process, and both have a round of public consultation before being finalised and ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • In a structural deficit, the only real tax cut is a spending cut
    Eric Crampton writes –  This week’s column in the Stuff papers. A snippet: Tabarrok warned that America had two political parties – “the Tax and Spenders and the No-Tax and Spenders” – and neither was fiscally conservative. In the two decades after Tabarrok’s warning, the federal government ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago
  • A Return to Kindness?
    New Zealanders are a pretty fair minded bunch. By and large we like to give people a go.Ian Foster, for example, had a terrible record as a head rugby coach. Like not even good, and did we let that bother us? Yeah, but also Nah. Because we went ahead and ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    5 days ago
  • Aukus or not, New Zealand’s foreign policy is being remade
    Geoffrey Miller writes –  This could be a watershed week for New Zealand’s international relations. Winston Peters, the foreign minister, is heading to Washington DC for a full week of meetings. The surprisingly lengthy trip just happens to coincide with a major trilateral summit of leaders from the United States, ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago
  • Back to the future, with a 2032 deadline
    Aiming to look visionary and focused, Luxon has announced nine targets to improve measures for education, health, crime and climate emissions - but the reality is only one target is well above pre-Covid levels. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The six news items of note for me in Aotearoa-NZ’s ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • Why Rod Carr is optimistic farmers can beat climate change
    The future of farming went on the line yesterday when the Climate Change Commission presented its first review of New Zealand’s target of net zero emissions by 2050. The Commission said New Zealand’s target was unlikely to be consistent with the 2015 Paris Agreement goal of holding temperature rise to ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    5 days ago
  • Grifters, Bigots & Booling With the Dawgs
    Hi,I hope you had a good weekend. I was mostly in bed with the worst flu of my life.Today I’m emerging on the other side — and looking forward to what I can catch of the total solar eclipse rippling across parts of America today.Whilst hacking through a cough, I’ve ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    5 days ago
  • Goldsmith spots a cost-saver in his Justice domain – let’s further erode our right (under Magna ...
    Bob Edlin writes – Chapter 39 of the Magna Carta (from memory) includes the guarantee that no free man may suffer punishment without “the lawful judgment of his peers.” This was a measure which the barons forced on England’s King John to delegate part of his judicial authority ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    5 days ago
  • Climate Adam: Is Global Warming Speeding Up?
    This video includes conclusions of the creator climate scientist Dr. Adam Levy. It is presented to our readers as an informed perspective. Please see video description for references (if any). Thanks to climate change, 2023 has shattered heat records, and 2024 is continuing where last year left off. With this devastating ...
    5 days ago
  • Brooke is on the TV, being a Minister!
    Brooke is on the TV, being a Minister! She is going to talk to Jack on the TV!It's hard to watch Jack on the TV without thinking to yourself:How can anyone be that good-looking,and also be even brainier than they are good-looking?Talk about lucky!But also, Jack works for the TV news. So ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    5 days ago
  • There’s gold – or rather, energy without carbon – in that rock, but Jones reminds us of the Tr...
    Buzz from the Beehive Oh, dear.  One News tells us an ownership spat is brewing between Māori and the Crown as New Zealand uses more renewable energy sources. No, not water or the shoreline.  Ownership of another resource has come into the reckoning. The One News report explained that 99% of ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    5 days ago
  • Climate Change: Bad faith from National
    One of the weird features of the Zero Carbon Act was its split-gas targets, which separated methane, produced overwhelmingly by farmers, from carbon dioxide produced by the rest of us. This lower target for methane was another effective subsidy to the dairy industry, and was the result of a compromise ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Gordon Campbell on Israel’s murderous use of AI in Gaza
    This may seem like a dumb question– but how come Israel has managed to kill at least 33,000 Palestinian civilians in Gaza, including over 13,000 children? Of course, saturation aerial bombing and artillery shelling of densely populated civilian neighbourhoods will do that. So will the targeting of children by IDF ...
    Gordon CampbellBy ScoopEditor
    5 days ago
  • Total Eclipse of the Mind.
    All that you touch And all that you seeAll that you taste All you feelAnd all that you love And all that you hateAll you distrust All you saveEarly tomorrow morning as the sun is rising in Aotearoa many people across North America, from Mexico to Canada, will be losing ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    5 days ago
  • So why do that degree… here?
    A report – and discussion – from the university front line… Mike Grimshaw writes – I have been involved in numerous curriculum and degree reviews over the decades and in all of them the question always skirted around is: “If you had to leave now with ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    6 days ago
  • The hunt is on for an asterix for farm emissions
    The Government is setting up its own experts group to review the goalposts for farmers to reduce methane emissions. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The six news items of note for me in Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy as of 9:06 am on Monday, April 8 are:The Government is setting up ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    6 days ago
  • Geoffrey Miller: Aukus or not, New Zealand’s foreign policy is being remade
    This could be a watershed week for New Zealand’s international relations. Winston Peters, the foreign minister, is heading to Washington DC for a full week of meetings. The surprisingly lengthy trip just happens to coincide with a major trilateral summit of leaders from the United States, Japan and the Philippines. ...
    Democracy ProjectBy Geoffrey Miller
    6 days ago
  • The Kaka’s diary for the week to April 15 and beyond
    TL;DR: The six key events to watch in Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy in the week to April 15 include:PM Christopher Luxon is scheduled to hold a post-Cabinet news conference at 4 pm today. The Climate Commission will publish advice to the Government this evening.Parliament is sitting from Question Time at 2pm ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    6 days ago
  • 2024 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #14
    A listing of 34 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, March 31, 2024 thru Sat, April 6, 2024. Story of the week Proxy measurement via Facebook "engagement" suggests a widely welcoming audience for Prof. Andrew Dessler's The Climate ...
    6 days ago
  • Their Money or Your Life.
    Brooke van Velden appeared this morning on Q&A, presumably paying homage to Margaret Thatcher. The robotic one had come in an 80s pink, shoulder-padded jacket, much favoured by the likes of Thatcher or Hosking. She also brought the spirit of Margaret, seemingly occupying her previously vacant soul compartment.Jack asked for ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    7 days ago
  • Truth pulls its boots on
    It's a lot easier to pull off a lie if people don't know much about what you're lying about.Sometimes, watching Christopher Luxon, you get the impression he doesn't know all that much about it, either.​​ That's the charitable interpretation. The other is that he knows full well.He was on the ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    7 days ago

  • Huge interest in Government’s infrastructure plans
    Hundreds of people in little over a week have turned out in Northland to hear Regional Development Minister Shane Jones speak about plans for boosting the regional economy through infrastructure. About 200 people from the infrastructure and associated sectors attended an event headlined by Mr Jones in Whangarei today. Last ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Health Minister thanks outgoing Health New Zealand Chair
    Health Minister Dr Shane Reti has today thanked outgoing Health New Zealand – Te Whatu Ora Chair Dame Karen Poutasi for her service on the Board.   “Dame Karen tendered her resignation as Chair and as a member of the Board today,” says Dr Reti.  “I have asked her to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Roads of National Significance planning underway
    The NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) has signalled their proposed delivery approach for the Government’s 15 Roads of National Significance (RoNS), with the release of the State Highway Investment Proposal (SHIP) today, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.  “Boosting economic growth and productivity is a key part of the Government’s plan to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Navigating an unstable global environment
    New Zealand is renewing its connections with a world facing urgent challenges by pursuing an active, energetic foreign policy, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says.   “Our country faces the most unstable global environment in decades,” Mr Peters says at the conclusion of two weeks of engagements in Egypt, Europe and the United States.    “We cannot afford to sit back in splendid ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • NZ welcomes Australian Governor-General
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has announced the Australian Governor-General, His Excellency General The Honourable David Hurley and his wife Her Excellency Mrs Linda Hurley, will make a State visit to New Zealand from Tuesday 16 April to Thursday 18 April. The visit reciprocates the State visit of former Governor-General Dame Patsy Reddy ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Pseudoephedrine back on shelves for Winter
    Associate Health Minister David Seymour has announced that Medsafe has approved 11 cold and flu medicines containing pseudoephedrine. Pharmaceutical suppliers have indicated they may be able to supply the first products in June. “This is much earlier than the original expectation of medicines being available by 2025. The Government recognised ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • NZ and the US: an ever closer partnership
    New Zealand and the United States have recommitted to their strategic partnership in Washington DC today, pledging to work ever more closely together in support of shared values and interests, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says.    “The strategic environment that New Zealand and the United States face is considerably more ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Joint US and NZ declaration
    April 11, 2024 Joint Declaration by United States Secretary of State the Honorable Antony J. Blinken and New Zealand Minister of Foreign Affairs the Right Honourable Winston Peters We met today in Washington, D.C. to recommit to the historic partnership between our two countries and the principles that underpin it—rule ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • NZ and US to undertake further practical Pacific cooperation
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced further New Zealand cooperation with the United States in the Pacific Islands region through $16.4 million in funding for initiatives in digital connectivity and oceans and fisheries research.   “New Zealand can achieve more in the Pacific if we work together more urgently and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Government redress for Te Korowai o Wainuiārua
    The Government is continuing the bipartisan effort to restore its relationship with iwi as the Te Korowai o Wainuiārua Claims Settlement Bill passed its first reading in Parliament today, says Treaty Negotiations Minister Paul Goldsmith. “Historical grievances of Te Korowai o Wainuiārua relate to 19th century warfare, land purchased or taken ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Focus on outstanding minerals permit applications
    New Zealand Petroleum and Minerals is working to resolve almost 150 outstanding minerals permit applications by the end of the financial year, enabling valuable mining activity and signalling to the sector that New Zealand is open for business, Resources Minister Shane Jones says.  “While there are no set timeframes for ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Applications open for NZ-Ireland Research Call
    The New Zealand and Irish governments have today announced that applications for the 2024 New Zealand-Ireland Joint Research Call on Agriculture and Climate Change are now open. This is the third research call in the three-year Joint Research Initiative pilot launched in 2022 by the Ministry for Primary Industries and Ireland’s ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Tenancy rules changes to improve rental market
    The coalition Government has today announced changes to the Residential Tenancies Act to encourage landlords back to the rental property market, says Housing Minister Chris Bishop. “The previous Government waged a war on landlords. Many landlords told us this caused them to exit the rental market altogether. It caused worse ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Boosting NZ’s trade and agricultural relationship with China
    Trade and Agriculture Minister Todd McClay will visit China next week, to strengthen relationships, support Kiwi exporters and promote New Zealand businesses on the world stage. “China is one of New Zealand’s most significant trade and economic relationships and remains an important destination for New Zealand’s products, accounting for nearly 22 per cent of our good and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Freshwater farm plan systems to be improved
    The coalition Government intends to improve freshwater farm plans so that they are more cost-effective and practical for farmers, Associate Environment Minister Andrew Hoggard and Agriculture Minister Todd McClay have announced. “A fit-for-purpose freshwater farm plan system will enable farmers and growers to find the right solutions for their farm ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • New Fast Track Projects advisory group named
    The coalition Government has today announced the expert advisory group who will provide independent recommendations to Ministers on projects to be included in the Fast Track Approvals Bill, say RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop and Regional Development Minister Shane Jones. “Our Fast Track Approval process will make it easier and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Pacific and Gaza focus of UN talks
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters says his official talks with the United Nations Secretary-General Antonio Guterres in New York today focused on a shared commitment to partnering with the Pacific Islands region and a common concern about the humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza.    “Small states in the Pacific rely on collective ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Government honours Taranaki Maunga deal
    The Government is honouring commitments made to Taranaki iwi with the Te Pire Whakatupua mō Te Kāhui Tupua/Taranaki Maunga Collective Redress Bill passing its first reading Parliament today, Treaty Negotiations Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “This Bill addresses the commitment the Crown made to the eight iwi of Taranaki to negotiate ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Enhanced partnership to reduce agricultural emissions
    The Government and four further companies are together committing an additional $18 million towards AgriZeroNZ to boost New Zealand’s efforts to reduce agricultural emissions. Agriculture Minister Todd McClay says the strength of the New Zealand economy relies on us getting effective and affordable emission reduction solutions for New Zealand. “The ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • 110km/h limit proposed for Kāpiti Expressway
    Transport Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed news the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) will begin consultation this month on raising speed limits for the Kāpiti Expressway to 110km/h. “Boosting economic growth and productivity is a key part of the Government’s plan to rebuild the economy and this proposal supports that outcome ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • New Zealand Biosecurity Awards – Winners announced
    Two New Zealanders who’ve used their unique skills to help fight the exotic caulerpa seaweed are this year’s Biosecurity Awards Supreme Winners, says Biosecurity Minister Andrew Hoggard. “Strong biosecurity is vital and underpins the whole New Zealand economy and our native flora and fauna. These awards celebrate all those in ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Attendance action plan to lift student attendance rates
    The Government is taking action to address the truancy crisis and raise attendance by delivering the attendance action plan, Associate Education Minister David Seymour announced today.   New Zealand attendance rates are low by national and international standards. Regular attendance, defined as being in school over 90 per cent of the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • World must act to halt Gaza catastrophe – Peters
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters has told the United Nations General Assembly (UNGA) in New York today that an immediate ceasefire is needed in Gaza to halt the ongoing humanitarian catastrophe.    “Palestinian civilians continue to bear the brunt of Israel’s military actions,” Mr Peters said in his speech to a ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Speech to United Nations General Assembly: 66th plenary meeting, 78th session
    Mr President,   The situation in Gaza is an utter catastrophe.   New Zealand condemns Hamas for its heinous terrorist attacks on 7 October and since, including its barbaric violations of women and children. All of us here must demand that Hamas release all remaining hostages immediately.   At the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Government woolshed roadshow kicks off
    Today the Government Agriculture Ministers started their national woolshed roadshow, kicking off in the Wairarapa. Agriculture Minister Todd McClay said it has been a tough time for farmers over the past few years. The sector has faced high domestic inflation rates, high interest rates, adverse weather events, and increasing farm ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • PM heads to Singapore, Thailand, and Philippines
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon will travel to Singapore, Thailand and the Philippines this week (April 14-20), along with a senior business delegation, signalling the Government’s commitment to deepen New Zealand’s international engagement, especially our relationships in South East Asia. “South East Asia is a region that is more crucial than ever to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Prime Minister launches Government Targets
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has announced further steps to get New Zealand back on track, launching nine ambitious Government Targets to help improve the lives of New Zealanders. “Our Government has a plan that is focused on three key promises we made to New Zealanders – to rebuild the economy, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Natural hydrogen resource should be free of Treaty claims entanglement
    Natural hydrogen could be a game-changing new source of energy for New Zealand but it is essential it is treated as a critical development that benefits all New Zealanders, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones is seeking to give regulatory certainty for those keen to develop natural, or geological, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Government responds to unsustainable net migration
    ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • New Zealand on stage at global Space Symposium
    Space Minister Judith Collins will speak at the Space Symposium in the United States next week, promoting New Zealand’s rapidly growing place in the sector as we work to rebuild the economy. “As one of the largest global space events, attended by more than 10,000 business and government representatives from ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • $4.9m project completed with marae reopening
    A significant marae has reopened in the heart of Rotorua marking the end of renovations for the Ruatāhuna Marae Renovation Cluster, a project that provided much-needed jobs and regional economic stimulus, Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones was at the official reopening of Mātaatua ki Rotorua Marae today. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Pure Tūroa Limited to operate Tūroa ski field
    Ko Tahuarangi te waka – Tahuarangi is the ancestral vessel Ko Rangitukutuku te aho – Rangitukutuku is the fishing line Ko Pikimairawea te matau – Pikimairawea is the hook Ko Hāhā te Whenua te ika kei rō-wai – Hāhā te whenua is the fish (of Māui) whilst under the ocean ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Methane targets to be independently reviewed
    Rebuilding New Zealand’s economy will rely on the valuable agricultural sector working sustainably towards our climate change goals.  Today, the Climate Change and Agriculture Ministers announced that an independent panel of experts will review agricultural biogenic methane science and targets for consistency with no additional warming. Agriculture Minister Todd McClay ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • NZ and Nordics: likeminded partners
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters has highlighted the strong ties that bind New Zealand and the Nordic countries of Northern Europe during a trip to Sweden today.    “There are few countries in the world more likeminded with New Zealand than our friends in Northern Europe,” Mr Peters says.    “We ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • First New Zealand C-130J Hercules takes flight
    The first New Zealand C-130J Hercules to come off the production line in the United States has successfully completed its first test flights, Defence Minister Judith Collins announced today. “These successful flights are a significant milestone for the New Zealand Defence Force, bringing this once-in-a-generation renewal of a critical airlift ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Government to rephase NCEA Change Programme
      The coalition Government is making significant changes to the NCEA Change Programme, delaying the implementation by two years, Minister of Education Erica Stanford announced today. “Ensuring New Zealand’s curriculum is world leading is a vital part of the Government’s plan to deliver better public services and ensure all students ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • New Ngāpuhi investment fund Chair appointed
    Ben Dalton has been appointed the new board Chair of Tupu Tonu, the Ngāpuhi Investment Fund, says Treaty Negotiations Minister Paul Goldsmith and Associate Finance Minister Shane Jones. “Ben brings a wealth of experience in governance and economic development to the position. He will have a strong focus on ensuring ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Education should be prioritised ahead of protesting
    Students should be in school and learning instead of protesting during school hours, Associate Education Minister David Seymour says. “If students feel strongly about sending a message, they could have marched on Tuesday when there was a nationwide teacher only day, or during the upcoming school holidays. It has become ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Delivering on Local Water Done Well
    Cabinet has agreed on key steps to implement Local Water Done Well, the Coalition Government’s plan for financially sustainable locally delivered water infrastructure and services, Local Government Minister Simeon Brown says.  "Councils and voters resoundingly rejected Labour’s expensive and bureaucratic Three Waters regime, and earlier this year the Coalition Government ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Peters to visit New York, Washington D.C.
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters will engage with high-level United States Government and United Nations officials in the United States next week (6-12 April).    The visit, with programmes in New York and Washington D.C., will focus on major global and regional security challenges and includes meetings with US Secretary of ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

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