Maori Party to help Nats kill carbon emissions cap

78 comments on “Maori Party to help Nats kill carbon emissions cap ”

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1. Bright Red 1

   14 September 2009 at 5:21 pm

   bastards
2. snoozer 2

   14 September 2009 at 5:22 pm

   Isn’t it time we started calling them the Maori Business Elite Party?
3. lprent 3

   14 September 2009 at 5:30 pm

   Idiots..
4. Daveo 4

   14 September 2009 at 5:34 pm

   I’m not sure what to think about the Maori Party. Just when I’m starting to warm to them over their support for the Redundancy Protection Bill they go and do something like this.
5. Ianmac 5

   14 September 2009 at 5:36 pm

   Hard to believe!
6. Lanthanide 6

   14 September 2009 at 5:36 pm

   “The amount of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere will continue to rise, the world’s temperature will keep climbing, and the costs of climate change will keep mounting.”

   Even if NZ stopped emitting 100% of CO2 emissions tomorrow this would still be true.

   Less breathless alarmism, please.
   • lprent 6.1

     14 September 2009 at 5:49 pm

     “Even if the US stopped emitting then that would be less than a quarter of the emissions, and china’s will keep increasing…”

     People like you exist in every nation as you can see from the above quote. Repeating some pathetic little mantra that makes you think that you can escape responsibility. Hoping that someone else will do the work. Pathetic little wimps without the courage to do what needs to be done. The ONLY way something gets done on this problem is if we all do it.

     Personally I think that as the water laps higher and famines start hitting, we should take CCD’s like you out and shoot them. Call it improving the species by trimming the idiots.

     Umm I suspect there will be a long list of volunteers for Wishart in this country…
     • Lanthanide 6.1.1

       14 September 2009 at 6:18 pm

       Excuse me, but I fully support carbox taxes, emission trading schemes and stopping climate change (nee global warming). I am not a climate change denier in any respect.

       What I don’t support is breathless alarmism as I quoted – acting like the Maori Party’s singular change of direction is going to result in the world going to crap.
     • sk 6.1.2

       14 September 2009 at 6:23 pm

       Well said Iprent. Who are we to lecture India and China that they have to stay poor? . . .So we can avoid change that may not be that costly for us (the studies so far say only a few % of developed world GDP – a lot less than has been spent on the financial crisis so far).

       It is like saying slavery should not have been abolished until the developing world did it first.
     • quebec 6.1.3

       14 September 2009 at 7:49 pm

       You are a bitter and twisted old man.

       Suck it up; we won you lost, badly.

       🙂
     • Ari 6.1.4

       15 September 2009 at 2:16 pm

       While social darwinism doesn’t actually improve the species, this would certainly be one way to reduce emissions. 😛
7. lprent 7

   14 September 2009 at 5:42 pm

   They’re obsessed by the F&S act – effectively it was why they formed. They haven’t managed to get in a position of leverage yet because they simply don’t have enough MP’s and votes. But they figure that they really need to do something this term on the F&S.

   Consequently when asked by National to grovel, they ask “how far”. This will persist until they get F&S legislation passed, which will be as late as possible in the term as National can get away with. National, like now, need the MP for legislation that Act would demand too high a price for. That is why I predicted this just after the election.

   That is my view anyway
   • Macro 7.1

     14 September 2009 at 8:35 pm

     Exactly!
     The MP are simply naive if they cannot see this! They are being taken for a ride – and now at the expense of ordinary NZers.
     Now NZers are being asked to subsidise foreign polluters to the tune of around $430 million per year on todays prices – to pollute in NZ! Well done the Maori Party. I can see the rank and file really appreciating this!
     • George D 7.1.1

       15 September 2009 at 1:47 pm

       Subsidies now run to over $1200 million.

       At current prices. They rise and we could easily be paying billions to polluters.
   • burt 7.2

     14 September 2009 at 8:41 pm

     You don’t like the Maori party standing up for their people do you ?
     • Macro 7.2.1

       14 September 2009 at 8:47 pm

       Pray tell how this is standing up for their people burt? You and I and every other taxpayer (including Maori – most of whom can ill afford it) are now about to fork out $430 Million to overseas polluters.
     • burt 7.2.2

       14 September 2009 at 9:56 pm

       Shit, lucky we took the do nothing joke then isn’t it – imagine the cost if the doomsday evangelists had their way.
       • Macro 7.2.2.1

         14 September 2009 at 10:14 pm

         You just don’t get it do you burt. I thought that you were all for USER PAYS. But under this scheme – it isn’t the USER who pays – its the taxpayer. Now who is the socialist here? Oh! I get it of course!! It’s the responsibility of taxpayers to subsidize business!
     • RedLogix 7.2.3

       14 September 2009 at 10:06 pm

       Shit, lucky we took the do nothing joke then isn’t it imagine the cost if the doomsday evangelists had their way.

       The whole point of Kyoto (modest as it was) was to provide a market signal incentivising carbon users to shift or mitigate their consumption.

       All this ETS is going to do is socialise much of that signal away from the public, and onto the taxpayer. As a card-carrying ACToid surely you get the irony burt.
8. gobsmacked 8

   14 September 2009 at 5:45 pm

   Maori Party statement, 2 weeks ago:

   “The Maori Party’s minority report on the proposed Emissions Trading Scheme shows the party wants stronger controls on greenhouse gas emissions, according to its climate change spokesperson Rahui Katene.

   “The time is past for scheming and trading – we want an Emissions Reduction Programme,” said Mrs Katene. “We want a regime that is transparent and fair, and requires polluters to pay.”

   Liar.
   • willaspish 8.1

     14 September 2009 at 7:41 pm

     I’m a Maori-Party-Changing-it’s-Mind-Denier. There is absolutely no way they will (or can) change their position on this issue at such a critical time. The science is clear for everyone to see.
9. BLiP 9

   14 September 2009 at 5:46 pm

   100 % Pure Bullshit
10. Ron 10

    14 September 2009 at 5:58 pm

    Even IF I stop driving at 200 km/hr – someone else will drive badly and kill someone so it’s just alarmism to have police out trying to stop me. Even IF I stop shooting randomly in all directions someone else will shoot people this year so it’s just alarmism to have laws against that sort of behiour. Even IF I stop producing 20 k’s of rubbish every week there’s that farmer who keeps polluting so it’s just alarmism to try and convince me to stop.
    • burt 10.1

      14 September 2009 at 6:12 pm

      Ron

      I’m planning on impounding your car because other people are driving at 200kph. How ya feeling about that ?
      • Ron 10.1.1

        14 September 2009 at 6:22 pm

        You don’t need to empound my car. There’s a clear law saying no-one should drive at 200k. It’s not hard.
        I can’t see how it’s ok for me to drive dangerously just because other people do. Christ, isn’t that what we’re always telling our kids?
        • burt 10.1.1.1

          14 September 2009 at 6:37 pm

          Ron

          Clearly you apply the same logic I do about “it not being OK because other people were doing it”. Where were you when I was being told that it was OK for Labour to steal tax payers money because other parties were also doing it, I even used the speeding analogy – however I digress.

          The point is, we can only do so much, our emissions are insignificant on a global scale against a backdrop of uncertainty. (unless the hockey stick is suddenly real again – and if it is I missed that carbon trading marketing campaign)

          There seems little point in us leading the world so we can say we are leading the world. However as a person who rides a bike to work owns a few acres of land which I have regenerating as native bush any emission taxes will be largely irrelevant to me, not so for people who can’t afford to upgrade vehicles, install double glazing etc.
          • sk 10.1.1.1.1

            14 September 2009 at 6:45 pm

            Burt, you guys are so 2008 . .. .

            It is no longer about leading the world. It will soon be about avoiding being grouped with the developing world. The new gov’t in Japan has already moved a long way since the election, and noise out of DC is that Obama may as well.

            Welcome to the future, NZ hanging out with Tanzania et al
          • burt 10.1.1.1.2

            14 September 2009 at 6:49 pm

            sk

            What we say no to defines us – but suddenly we need to be sheep. Welcome back the nuke ships while we are at it – wouldn’t want to be a laughing stock would we.
    • mickysavage 10.2

      14 September 2009 at 7:15 pm

      Well I think we should give up now and not do anything.

      WTF with a bit of luck we will be able to not see too many effects during our lives and our kids will have to pick up the mess …
      • Steve 10.2.1

        14 September 2009 at 8:03 pm

        Yes, the kids should clean up this mess.
        After all the little darlings have done nothing except scream “I want, I want”
        The kids do not care about anyone except themselves.
11. climate justice 11

    14 September 2009 at 5:59 pm

    to be honest the ETS was crap anyway – under national or labour – and about an emissions market not emissions reductions.

    was bad that the maori party fell over on this one – now that the ETS debate is over – ppl can talk about what matters on the climate issue – environment, conservation and climate policy.

    NZ needs more renewable energy, energy conservation and sane transport policy. None of those things will happen with the likes of Gerry Brownlee in charge of energy and resources.
12. gobsmacked 12

    14 September 2009 at 6:04 pm

    Guyon Espiner is a total fucking wanker. An embarrassment to journalism.
    • felix 12.1

      14 September 2009 at 6:12 pm

      He certainly is. Why do you mention it?
      • gobsmacked 12.1.1

        14 September 2009 at 6:18 pm

        His report just now on One News. It wasn’t even “biased” coverage of the issue, it just ignored the issue of climate change competely. He simply said “My hero John Key is gonna save you money” (paraphrase, but close enough).
        • Zaphod Beeblebrox 12.1.1.1

          14 September 2009 at 6:23 pm

          If its too complicated to explain the implications, its easier to just pretend that there won’t be any consequences. Ignorance is bliss.
          BTW does he mention the $428.3 mill yearly subsidy to polluters at current carbon prices?
          • gobsmacked 12.1.1.1.1

            14 September 2009 at 6:30 pm

            It’s not like he has any excuse – not these days.

            It’s all there, in easily digestible chunks, provided free of charge, at the touch of a pad …

            http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2009/09/climate-change-subsidised-pollution.html

            Espiner can’t even do what bloggers do, and yet he gets paid for his crap.

            Pathetic.
    • Quoth the Raven 12.2

      14 September 2009 at 7:52 pm

      Guyon Espiner is a total fucking wanker. An embarrassment to journalism

      A truism. The same goes for his hopeless brother.
13. Johnty Rhodes 13

    14 September 2009 at 6:04 pm

    Ah, the joys of MMP. You wanted it you got it.
    GW = bullshit forced upon us by communists, aka Greens.
    • Christopher Nimmo 13.1

      14 September 2009 at 8:00 pm

      Uhhhhh…. so how would this be any different under FPP?
      • George D 13.1.1

        15 September 2009 at 1:50 pm

        So, if we vote for FPP at the referendum, the carbon falls from the sky and the laws of physics stop working?

        Thanks for the tip, mate.
14. Zaphod Beeblebrox 14

    14 September 2009 at 6:09 pm

    Is this a joke post or are we playing to take this to the Copenhagen conference?
    If we do, we will be effectively excluded from future negotiations.
    • burt 14.1

      14 September 2009 at 6:13 pm

      Best outcome, we don’t need to be a test case for the world to experiment with for a change.
      • sk 14.1.1

        14 September 2009 at 6:15 pm

        fine Burt, enjoy being irrelevant. Which in your recent posts you clearly are already
      • Pascal's bookie 14.1.2

        14 September 2009 at 6:17 pm

        Fair enough. Let’s abandon all this Roger Douglas fail that we’ve been playing with for lo these many years.
15. sk 15

    14 September 2009 at 6:13 pm

    extremely cynical by everyone involved . .. Shows complete lack of intellectual ability in this gov’t .. . and the media. Of course there are no easy answers, but this ‘solution’ is very irresponsible (and for the Ron’s of the world, just hows that NZ is now completely irrelevant).

    What manewhenua is being excercised by the Maori party? And they wonder why there are no Maori seats.

    The way senior members of the Gov’t talk about Tariana and Pita behind their backs is straight from the 1950’s . .. . .and that is exactly how both sides behave
16. burt 16

    14 September 2009 at 6:46 pm

    Unless a race based exception from carbon taxes is given to Maori people, how would you ever expect the Maori party acting in the best interests of their constituents (who are over represented in the lower socioeconomic demographic) to support additional taxation which will disproportionately effect people who can’t afford to spend money upgrading the things they own to reduce their emissions?
    • sk 16.1

      14 September 2009 at 6:52 pm

      because they owe it to Rangi and Papatuanuku
    • sk 16.2

      14 September 2009 at 7:05 pm

      and if Rangi and Papatuanuku no longer matter, then Pita and Turiana are exactly as the Minister’s describe them in private – amusing brown fellas like Ben Couch
17. lprent 17

    14 September 2009 at 7:13 pm

    Burt the effect of this bill is to shift a 400 million dollar cost per year from polluters to taxpayers. We already agreed to this cost in the Bolger government.

    For the next 4 or 5 years there is little or no incentive for polluters to pay. So you as a taxpayer will be.
    • burt 17.1

      14 September 2009 at 7:20 pm

      lprent

      Sorry I missed how we already agreed to this in the Bolger government. Can you explain that please.
      • Armchair Critic 17.1.1

        14 September 2009 at 8:25 pm

        I’m picking it happened when the Kyoto Protocol was signed by NZ. The PM was Shipley, not Bolger, but it was the fourth National government.
      • burt 17.1.2

        14 September 2009 at 8:42 pm

        Oh yes, the last time we jumped into something to give the appearance of doing something. Now remind me again how many billions of dollars that deal was going to make us ?
      • Clarke 17.1.3

        14 September 2009 at 8:48 pm

        You do recall Simon Upton signing us up to Kyoto, don’t you? Or were you not paying attention?
    • George D 17.2

      15 September 2009 at 1:53 pm

      $1200 million.
18. gobsmacked 18

    14 September 2009 at 7:17 pm

    A journalist (not a telly idol) provides some proper analysis:

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU0909/S00385.htm

    Huge implications in there. And a lot of detail deliberately vague. It’s barely an agreement at all – some big fights to come.

    Typical Key – get the headline first, leave the facts for later. Still, if the hacks are lapping it up, he’ll keep feeding them.
    • Zaphod Beeblebrox 18.1

      14 September 2009 at 7:30 pm

      Read the last Para about post treaty settlement compensation. I doubt that even nat supporters will go for that one.
19. jabba 19

    14 September 2009 at 7:18 pm

    why don’t we shoot our cows, ban cars/planes/trucks and bring back the donkey and cart.
    Everything we have (well alot anyway) come from a process causing pollution.
    My laptop has glass, steel, plastic and gods knows what else and is run by battery or electricty. My car has plastic, steel, rubber, glass etc and uses petrol and oil blah blah.
    Mmmmm, I’m a bad boy.
    • RedLogix 19.1

      14 September 2009 at 7:52 pm

      What a proper little Luddite you are jabba. All those things you list are so… last century. The real future of manufacturing lies in entirely new green technologies, new materials, new processes and fully implementing complete life-cycle systems to fully manage products from cradle to grave.

      More than a few enlightened producers are realising that pollution and inefficiency are nothing more than costs which impact directly on their bottom line.
      • Rob 19.1.1

        15 September 2009 at 2:39 pm

        Hi

        I am in manufacturing and we have some very smart technology and good materials usage, so what exactly are these “new green technologies, new materials, new processes and fully implementing complete life-cycle systems to fully manage products from cradle to grave”.

        I don’t actually think you know, I think you just regurgitate a few words you heard at some conference.

        Unfortunatly Jabba’s point is more of indication of what the true position actually is rather than your wank words.
        • lprent 19.1.1.1

          15 September 2009 at 3:03 pm

          At one stage I was into running factories before I started programming, and it does tend to be a family profession. Of course being active around computers means that I’ve probably seen the inside of more industries than most.

          I think that you have things arse about face. If there are no reasons to improve, industries don’t. The extreme case was when industry in NZ was hiding behind tariff barriers. We wound up with most of our industry being horribly inefficient. A lot of them simply collapsed when the protection was dropped, the remainder got markedly more efficient at every level from inventory control to purchasing. This included changing equipment, materials, and people management. We also spawned a lot more appropriate industries for our skills and economy.

          Without a price or some other strong economic signal, most industries won’t bother to investigate more than you do. I’d suggest that you learn to use the web and some imagination. It has all been done before….
20. Ianmac 20

    14 September 2009 at 7:40 pm

    I was intrigued with Espiners breathless excitement TV1 News announcing that instead of $300 cost per year the plan will only cost $170 py. And power will go up (puff puff) not $150 but only $70 (approx).
    And you lucky people instead of doing $2,000 damage to your car its only $1,000. Aren’t you pleased with how much money I saved you when I crashed your car? Wow! Clever old John, People Saviour. Amen. Guyon gets 10/10 for reading John’s script so well.
    • George D 20.1

      15 September 2009 at 1:57 pm

      He’s completely wrong.

      The costs to the country are the same in the first year as they would be under the other ETS, and any other (because our external liabilities aren’t changed). However, more of these are paid by the taxpayer because we are subsidising business.

      In later years it gets worse, because businesses shielded from costs are less incentivised to change, and farmers will be shielded 90% in perpetuity, no matter what the carbon price (and by 2020 it will almost certainly be above the current $25).
21. Anne 21

    14 September 2009 at 7:42 pm

    SK. Care to elaborate on what else senior members of the Govt.say about Tariana and Pita? We know about John “Hone” Carter’s thoughts on Maori. I think the time has come for Labour and the Greens to expose both of them for what they really are… dishonest, unprincipled and self serving.
    • sk 21.1

      14 September 2009 at 8:02 pm

      Anne, they are not dishonest, just inept.

      The background is that when in front of exclusively Pakeha audiences, very senior members of this government are prepared to ridicule both Pita and Tariana, in fact, they go so far as to assault / undermine their mana – coming up with stories that should remain private, but are only told to make a joke of the ‘brown fellas’. Even for a non-coalition partner the personal nature of the comments would be unacceptable

      Anyone with a sense for race relations in this country, should have been alarmed . . . .

      If Pita and Turiana are to preserve what is left of their mana, they should start digging around. Otherwise, they will end up as 21st century Ben Couch’s.

      Today has highlighted the risks they are taking personally, but I believe more through ineptitude than malace
      • Galeandra 21.1.1

        14 September 2009 at 10:38 pm

        “The background is that when in front of exclusively Pakeha audiences, very senior members of this government are prepared to ridicule both Pita and Tariana, in fact, they go so far as to assault / undermine their mana coming up with stories that should remain private, but are only told to make a joke of the ‘brown fellas’. Even for a non-coalition partner the personal nature of the comments would be unacceptable..’

        This isn’t really an attempt to elaborate, it’s a restatement of the allegation. Some specifics please, this is serious stuff. It’s only hearsay as you spin it.
        • sk 21.1.1.1

          14 September 2009 at 10:49 pm

          This is not the right venue . . .

          It is up to the Maori Party to put it together . . . It is there if they care to see it. A younger Pita Sharples would have by now
22. The Voice of Reason 22

    14 September 2009 at 7:46 pm

    I’m guessing the brown Tories have done this because their prime motivation is sticking it to Labour. Or maybe ’cause they just don’t understand climate change anyway and don’t get the value of what they just traded away. The sad thing is that the Nats could have done a deal with Labour that may not have been perfect, but at least would have been close to a consensus position and a good buiding block for the future.

    Once again, the National Party’s tame ethnics franchise loses and Wodders wins.
23. mike 23

    14 September 2009 at 8:34 pm

    “with people like the Maori Party betraying their principles”

    Maori are one the more capitalist races in the world Marty. Good on them, how much more mana enhancing can you get than making a better lot for your people?
    • Clarke 23.1

      14 September 2009 at 8:50 pm

      You’re right … I’m sure they got a very nice collection of blankets and beads. Should go a long way to enhancing their mana.
24. Anne 24

    14 September 2009 at 9:09 pm

    sk
    Thanks for the back-ground. I agree. They are incredibly inept. They don’t seem to have the intellectual capability to understand what they are doing. I still believe there is some dishonesty and lack of principle. Perhaps more so with Tariana. She is still full of revenge towards the Labour Party. Very sad.
25. Gareth 25

    14 September 2009 at 9:33 pm

    The full dimensions of National’s snub to Labour are revealed here. Breathtaking.
    • burt 25.1

      14 September 2009 at 9:59 pm

      Made Labour the last cab off the rank – can’t imagine why that pissed them off.
      • Galeandra 25.1.1

        14 September 2009 at 10:44 pm

        Don’t be so bloody weak. The issue is far too big for party political tossing.
        All of us should see that, even the psuedos who so easily forget that only a few handfuls of generations ago we were all tribally based hunter gatherers for whom individualism wasn’t even an imaginable concept.

Links to post

1. New Zealand Birds: posted on 14 September 2009 at 10:42 am
2. Gabriella Turek: posted on 14 September 2009 at 9:24 pm
3. Kiwipolitico » Blog Archive » Hoiho trading: posted on 15 September 2009 at 11:26 am
4. I admit it, I was wrong. « g.blog: posted on 15 September 2009 at 1:58 pm
5. Short term thinkers at The Standard: posted on 16 September 2009 at 1:31 pm

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