Masters of Finance?

Written By: - Date published: 11:34 am, May 20th, 2015 - 52 comments
Categories: debt / deficit, Economy, labour, national - Tags:

MastersOfFinance

Labour: Net debt goes from $22 billion to $0

National: Net debt has gone back up to over $46 billion

Source: Treasury

 

52 comments on “Masters of Finance?”

  1. Ovid 1

    But..but…but showerheads! Lightbulbs!

  2. johnm 2

    Jesus wept? Looking at this disaster by the bean counter in chief is enough to make me weep! 🙁

  3. Enough is Enough 3

    We are a trading nation. Compare the world economies during the same period for a better analysis.

    • Draco T Bastard 3.1

      No country should set itself up as a ‘trading nation’. What we should be doing is zeroing ourselves up as being self sufficient with minimal trading.

      • Enough is Enough 3.1.1

        That’s a different point though isn’t it.

        We are what we are.

        We will never be what you want us to be in your idealistic, paradise.

        • Draco T Bastard 3.1.1.1

          Actually, the way we are is the ideology.

          • Enough is Enough 3.1.1.1.1

            Why do you think we should put up man made borders and isolate ourselves from the rest of humanity?

            Aren’t we all on this planet together, and therefore have to strive together towards some inclusive outcomes?

            Why should only those who were lucky enough to be born in Planet Draco be able to benefit from the non-trading society existing there?

            • Draco T Bastard 3.1.1.1.1.1

              Why do you think we should put up man made borders and isolate ourselves from the rest of humanity?

              Where did I say we should?

              Aren’t we all on this planet together, and therefore have to strive together towards some inclusive outcomes?

              And such outcomes need to be economic. Trading is, especially over long distances, uneconomic as it uses up more resources.

              Why should only those who were lucky enough to be born in Planet Draco be able to benefit from the non-trading society existing there?

              I didn’t say that there’d be no trading did I?

  4. Colonial Rawshark 4

    Oh FFS Bunji, this is utter bullshit.

    Cullen ran a debt swap during his years in power. He created government surpluses by allowing the private sector to fall deeper and deeper into debt. Labour 5 swapped government debt for private sector debt.

    At the end of 3 terms in power Labour left NZ as a whole deeper in foreign debt than when it started – its just that the government’s share of that debt decreased.

    Any government which runs a surplus in NZ is setting households and businesses up for a recession, due to the reality of sectorial money balances.

    Figure it out.

    • Enough is Enough 4.1

      Exactly

      Was New Zealand’s (the private and public sector) debt better off at the end of Cullen’s reign?

      • hoom 4.1.1

        Is the Private sector debt any better after 7yrs of Nats?
        I bet its worse at a higher rate.

        • Bunji 4.1.1.1

          private sector debt has not decreased for the major increase in government debt, no.

          I wouldn’t agree with the analysis that public and private debt are so strongly linked. Both need solving, and Cullen didn’t solve the Current Account Deficit, no.

          I just replied to CR in another post on much the same stuff.

    • Andrew 4.3

      +lots!

      and over those boom years from 2003 to 2008, govt spending increased by 50% in just over 5 years. Then when the ass dropped out of the economy we were left with spending promises that couldn’t be cut without disadvantaging those most in need. That is where the debt comes from.

      • Puddleglum 4.3.1

        when the ass dropped out of the economy we were left with spending promises that couldn’t be cut without disadvantaging those most in need.”

        That suggests that if ‘those most in need’ had not had the benefit of the additional spending during those 9 years then they would never have had their needs met – in good times or bad.

        Not much of a society for ‘them’ then, eh?

        If government spending didn’t increase in boom years then when would it?

        Or should it never increase? In that case, the whole notion of ‘growing the pie’ in order to afford public services (you know, the ‘gain’ that supposedly comes from the ‘pain’ – as Roger Douglas repeatedly used to say) is a bit of a deceptive crock of an argument, isn’t it?

        Put simply, how are the needs of those “most in need” ever to be met if – following your argument – in the absence of government spending the private sector/market economy cannot meet them?

        • John 4.3.1.1

          The problem was in the 2000s massive govt spending growth was on the back of the whole country, year after year, spending 115% of what it earned.

          Under Clark private debt grew 166% from $60b to $160b.

          The whole situation was totally unsustainable but nothing was done to stop what was effectively a massive and growing debt mountain, financing an economic bubble.

          And surprise surprise – it led to a financial crisis – in the same way as households would end up in financial crisis if they spend 15% more than they earned, year after year after year.

          • Puddleglum 4.3.1.1.1

            Hi john,

            Thanks for the response – though I’m not sure how it relates to the points I was making. I was not arguing in favour of large national debt.

            Are you arguing that when the private sector gets itself into debt the government should trim its – relatively less important – expenditure rather than, for example, somehow reign in private sector debt?

            I see the two as distinct policy decisions and so I wouldn’t want to see expenditure on social infrastructure reduced because the private sector has been allowed to go on a non-productive debt-fuelled spending spree.

            I don’t see why those ‘most in need’ should suffer because the middle class (and the wealthy) have racked up lots of debt – and the government has allowed them to. That’s especially so if the consequence of the spending spree is higher costs (e.g., in rent) for those ‘most in need’.

            If those ‘most in need’ require government expenditure to stay afloat then that expenditure is justified – purely on those terms.

            • John 4.3.1.1.1.1

              Puddlegum – the point was the government increased spending because it was getting more tax from the debt fueled bubble.

              You can’t spend much more than you earn, year after year, so the debt fueled spending wasn’t sustainable, therefore the tax intake and increased govt spending wasn’t sustainable either.

              It was all based on the whole country spending much more than it earned. So the govt at the time should have taken measures stop private debt going up 160% under their watch.

              That would have done more to help the less well off, because as you say, the bubble hurt them with big hikes in rent.

          • joe90 4.3.1.1.2

            2000s massive govt spending growth

            Yup, government spending was 31.0% of GDP in 2000, 31.2% in 2008 and 35% in 2011.

            //

            /wp-content/uploads/2011/05/image012.png

            • John 4.3.1.1.2.1

              Spending went up around 60% from 1999-2008 ($34b to $57b).

              Did we see a 60% improvement in health outcomes? Education outcomes?

              The Clark govt were feeding off the bubble created by the additional spending from $100b of extra private debt.

              They did nothing about a whole country spending 115% of what it actually earned – year after year.

              Try doing that with your household and see how long you last.

              • Colonial Viper

                you idiot, a currency sovereign and a household have nothing in common from a budgetary perspective.

                • John

                  Yeah right.

                  So it’s not sustainable for one household to spend 15% more than they earn year after year.

                  But it’s not a problem if the whole country (2,000,000 households) do it
                  (on AVERAGE every household in the country was spending 15% more than it was earning in the mid 2000s).

                  Pretty soon the person/whole country has to pay back the debt, has to cut their spending, and realises that we all collectively own the same houses we did previously, but we owe foreign banks an additional $100m more than we did before.

                  Profits, jobs, company tax, gst and paye are all down, and the govt realises that like the whole country, it had increased it’s spending on the back of a bubble, so it’s spending like the households, was unsustainable.

        • Andrew 4.3.1.2

          No-one ever said that they should not get the benefit of additional spending, just that the level of extra spending was the issue.

  5. Ian 5

    Deficit/surplus comparisons are completely meaningless when devoid of context. The implication that governments running deficits is inherently bad is plain stupid.

    BTW, the US is currently running a deficit of about 105% of GDP, Japan 200%!

    New Zealand? About 33%…

  6. Colonial Rawshark 6

    And another thing – that net debt of $46B is money that National has put into the NZ economy, into ordinary Kiwis pockets (although the 1% got more than their fair share).

    Are we really saying that we would have been better off as a country with austerity measures, and National pulling that $46B out of Kiwi’s pockets. I mean FFS

    • Bob 6.1

      +1000

      Thank you CR! All of the talk of the budget deficit is arse about face, when the GFC hit National lower taxes and took on debt and their was an outcry, plenty saying taxes should be increased instead. Imagine if you were a couple, one of you got made redundant during the GFC, then your partners income is decreased due to higher taxes! The number of people on the street would have grown a lot more than it did!

      The other option was to reduce Welfare, Education or Health when they were most needed, FFS is right, taking on debt was the only real option, and lowering taxes was at least a way of trying to get the economy moving again!

      • Sabine 6.1.1

        but Welfare, Education, Health and many other parts were reduced.

        Heck, try being unemployed nowadays and go to Winz for a benefit.

        NZ has had its form of Austerity over the last seven years. And those of us that live in cars, eat only once a day or every other day, that can’t go to the doctors or dentist due to lack of funds know full well what austerity means.

        that lowering of taxes for the rich, well that was paid for by the GST increase for the poor.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 6.1.2

        A shit way of getting the economy moving, considering tax cuts might hurt growth.

        Yes, yes, I know you’re programmed to believe something else.

      • Richard@Down South 6.1.3

        Actually National took on debt to five the Rich tax cuts…

        All of our eggs are in one basket, namely Dairy…. but seeing as the payout is expected to be $5 Billion less than last year, that will put a huge dent in the plans of the Govt rescuing the economy…

        Even Bob Jones, who loves to make money, says there are better opportunities to make money, under a National Govt, but the economy as a whole does better under Labour

        Dairy as a whole, doesn’t actually benefit many…

  7. Enough is Enough 7

    I think the title to this post should be directed to its author

  8. peterh 8

    Why, do the Nats always print their budget in a blue cover, when it always end in the RED

  9. The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 9

    Nats spending too much? What do you favour cutting?

    • Wynston 9.1

      The $26 million expenditure on the flag change farce would be a good start!

      • Bob 9.1.1

        Do you realise, what you are suggesting is the equivalent to having a $46,000 personal loan and not buying a $26 bottle of wine would be a good start?
        Where is the rest coming from? Health, Education, Welfare, Chch rebuild? Those are the big ticket items that could actually make a difference, so your choice…

      • dv 9.1.2

        30m on tiwai
        600m? on SCF
        6m to buy a farm in saudi

        for starters

        • Bob 9.1.2.1

          So add in Tiwai and the farm in Saudi (not sure what this refers too) to the flag referendum and you are at $62M of the $46,000M of debt, keep going you are almost there! Just $45,938M left to find!

          The $600M was part of the Government Guarantee that was brought in by the previous Labour Government, and rightly so, this covered private investors, not the company itself.

    • Bunji 9.2

      2 sides to a balance sheet Gormless Fool.
      I wouldn’t have cut the top tax rate, and I’d have a CGT to take a little of the heat out of the housing market for a start…

      I’d also have an economy where jobs were a higher priority, and fewer unemployment and higher tax take does a lot for the books…

      • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 9.2.1

        What effect would higher taxes have on employment, do you think, Bunji?

        • Colonial Rawshark 9.2.1.1

          Likely positive for employment, if those taxes were spent back on services for communities.

          • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 9.2.1.1.1

            Yes, although if you spend it, will it tend to create a surplus?

    • Stuart Munro 9.3

      Their throats.

  10. Draco T Bastard 10

    We seem to have found the 10 years of deficits that the RWNJs warned us about – it was in National’s governance.

    • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 10.1

      Sure can’t think of anything else that might have caused it.

      • adam 10.1.1

        liberal economics

      • Puddleglum 10.1.2

        Hi Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell,

        So when Treasury announced ten years of deficits that was not primarily a function of the Labour Government’s policies but of the GFC that was being factored in?

        Someone should have told the National Party during its 2008 campaign. They seem to have misunderstood the cause of the predicted deficits. They were under the impression it had something to do with the then government’s economic management.

    • Enough is Enough 10.2

      It was Treasury to be fair, but I guess you being you will consider them RWNJ.

      • Draco T Bastard 10.2.1

        It was the RWNJs that blew it all out of proportion. That said, our entire financial system is broken and it’s that way because of the teachings that those in Treasury receive.

  11. Peter 11

    …. the figures for real GDP per capita/head would be interesting

  12. John 12

    I think whoever wrote the headline should sign it, “master of ignorance”.

    Out of 200+ countries on the planet, there would be very few who wouldn’t happily swap the performance of their economy for ours over the same period.

    • Draco T Bastard 12.1

      And yet ours should have been so much better and would have been if National weren’t in charge.

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    When National was in power, they were very keen on Public-Private Partnerships (PPPs) - basicly, using private companies to finance public infrastructure as a way of hiding debt from the public. They were keen on using them for everything - roads, schools, hospitals. But as the UK shows, that "service" ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • A Movement That No Longer Moves.
    Moving And Shaking: There was a time when people spoke matter-of-factly about the “labour movement” – a political phenomenon understood to embrace much more than the Labour Party. Included within the term’s definition was the whole trade union movement – many of whose members looked upon the Labour Party as ...
    1 week ago
  • NZ ‘left’ politically embracing extreme postmodernism
    by Philip Ferguson Much of the left, even people who formally identify as marxists, have collapsed politically in the face of postmodern gender theory of the sort pioneered by American philosopher Judith Butler. For Butler even biological sex is socially constructed. “If the immutable character of sex is contested, perhaps ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • The obvious question
    The media is reporting that the (alleged) Labour party sexual assaulter has resigned from their job at Parliament, which means hopefully he won't be turning up there making people feel unsafe in future. Good. But as with everything about this scandal, it just raises other questions. Most significantly: why the ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • The moment I found out that you found out, I acted swiftly
    By Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern I am every bit as angry as you are. I am every bit as disappointed as you must be. The people with power, oversight and the ability to do something about these processes within the Labour Party should be ashamed. Whoever those people are, I ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • This is why people hate property developers
    Property developers think there is an "oversupply" of houses in Auckland:High turnover rates and falling prices may be a sign that there are too many new houses going in to some parts of Auckland, commentators say. [...] Property developer David Whitburn said there was a "bit of an oversupply" in ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Australia to Pacific: “Fuck you, you can all drown”
    World leaders are meeting in New York in two weeks for the 2019 Climate Action Summit, where they are expected to announce new and more ambitious targets to stop the world from burning. But the Australian Prime Minister won't be there, despite being in the USA at the time:Scott Morrison ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Implausible ignorance
    Labour Party president Nigel Haworth resigned yesterday over the party's sexual assault scandal. But while that's good news, its unlikely to take away the stench of a coverup. Because according to Paula Bennett in Parliament yesterday, pretty much everyone in the Prime Minister's office was involved as well:I have been ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Labour’s Fatal Flaw.
     Two-Faced? Labour insiders' commitment to the neoliberal status quo puts them at odds with their party’s membership; its trade union affiliates; and a majority of Labour voters, but this only serves to strengthen the perception they have of themselves as a special elite. Among the lesser breeds, they’ll talk up a ...
    1 week ago
  • Ten reasons the Tories do NOT want an election
    There has been a lot of talk about Boris Johnson wanting an election, and he has blustered with great gusto about 'chicken' Jeremy Corbyn refusing one, but I think there are many reasons why he is secretly glad he has been refused the opportunity:The Tories are an utter rabble,tearing themselves ...
    1 week ago
  • Prorogation Illegal, rule Scottish judges
    Scottish appeal court judges have declared that Boris Johnson’s decision to suspend parliament in the run-up to the October Brexit deadline is unlawful. The three judges, chaired by Lord Carloway, Scotland’s most senior judge, overturned an earlier ruling that the courts did not have the powers to interfere in the prime ...
    1 week ago
  • Let me explain what I meant by Everyday New Zealanders
    By Simon Bridges. The following is a press release from the office of Simon Bridges, leader of The National Party. Key ora, New Zealand. Happy Maori Language Week. Look, I’m writing to you today because I want to clear something up. There’s been a lot of kerfuffle around some things ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Yes, the SIS is subject to the Public Records Act
    I understand there's some stuff going round about how the SIS "was removed from the list of public offices covered by the Public Records Act in 2017". The context of course being their records derived from US torture, which will be disposed of or sealed. The good news is that ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • An evidence-based discussion of the Canadian fluoride/IQ study
    Dr. Christopher Labos and Jonathan Jarry discuss the recent Canadian fluoride/IQ research. They provide an expert analysis of the paper and its problems. Click on image to go to podcast. The critical debate about the recent ...
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: Australia in denial
    Australia is burning down again, and meanwhile its natural disaster minister is denying climate change:Australia’s minister responsible for drought and natural disasters, David Littleproud, has said that he doesn’t “know if climate change is manmade”. Clarifying earlier comments that the question is “irrelevant” when considering the Coalition government’s response to ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Philippines activist speaking on the Duterte tyranny
    Auckland Philippines Solidarity is excited to host Professor Judy Taguiwalo for a speaking tour of NZ in September. She is a well-known activist in the Philippines and was a political prisoner under the Marcos dictatorship. Professor Taguiwalo briefly served as a Cabinet member under President Duterte but was forced from ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Disgust
    I have no special insights to offer on the Labour sexual assault coverup. All I have is disgust. Disgust that an organisation could fail its people so badly. Disgust that they punished the victims rather than the perpetrator. Disgust that its party hacks are apparently blaming the victims for demanding ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Speak Up for Women calls out Greens’ censorship
    This open letter to the Green Party was penned after an opinion piece by Jill Abigail, a feminist and founding member of the party, was censored by the Greens’ leadership. (Redline has reprinted her article here).The intolerance of the Green Party leaders and their acceptance of the misogyny of gender ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Member’s Day: End of Life Choice, part 3
    Today is a Member's day, and David Seymour's End of Life Choice Bill continues its slow crawl through its committee stage. They're spending the whole day on it today, though the first hour is likely to be spent on voting left over from last time. After that they'll move on ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Flight to Los Angeles turned back after passengers decide they don’t want to go anymore
    An ambitious plan to fly to Los Angeles petered out into a brief sight-seeing trip and a desire to return home and get some sleep before work tomorrow. Air New Zealand has confirmed a flight to Los Angeles last night was turned back about a quarter of the way into ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Indigenous Futures: defuturing and futuring – an analytical framework for policy development?
    There appears to be consensus – by omission – that the concept of indigenous futures should be accepted at face value. So I scavenged the internet to see if I could locate an academic descriptor or a framework around how we think about it as a concept, and whether it ...
    EllipsisterBy Ellipsister
    1 week ago
  • Cadbury rumoured to be releasing the Pineapple Trump
    Here’s another novelty chocolate to shove in your gob, New Zealand Cadbury could be seeking to make itself great again with a rumoured new release: Pineapple Trumps, a spin on its classic chocolate-encased pineapple treat and do-it-yourself tooth remover. The global confectionery manufacturer and bumbling “before” character in an infomercial, ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • The coming resource war.
    During my time in the Pentagon I had the privilege of sitting down with military leaders and defence and security officials from a variety of Latin American nations. Sometimes I was present as a subordinate assistant to a senior US defence department official, sometimes as part of a delegation that ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    2 weeks ago
  • Māori Language Week with The Civilian
    Kia ora, Aotearoa. It’s that magical time of year. Te Wiki o te Reo Māori. In English, the week that frightens talk radio. As you probably know by now, all your favourite media outlets are participating, some more successfully than others. Stuff has changed its name to Puna for the ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Will Horizons act on climate change?
    Local body elections are coming up next month. And it looks like all Palmerston North candidates for Horizons (the Manawatu-Whanganui Regional Council) want to take action on climate change:Climate change is set to be a key issue in Palmerston North for the next three years if those wanting to get ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • BORA reform is stalled
    Eighteen months ago, the government promised to strengthen the Bill of Rights Act, by explicitly affirming the power of the courts to issue declarations of inconsistency and requiring Parliament to formally respond to them. So how's that going? I was curious, so I asked for all advice about the proposal. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Corbyn and Brexit
    As the Brexit saga staggers on, the focus is naturally enough on the Prime Minister and his attempts to achieve Brexit “do or die”. But the role played by the Leader of the Opposition is of almost equal interest and complexity. The first problem for Jeremy Corbyn is that he ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    2 weeks ago
  • A ditch for him to die in
    Last week, English Prime Minister Boris Johnson boldly declared that he would rather die be dead in a ditch than delay Brexit. Unfortunately for him, the UK parliament accepted the challenge, and promptly dug one for him. The "rebellion bill" requires him to ask for and secure yet another temporary ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Warning! Warning! Danger Jacinda Ardern! Danger Marama Davidson! Warning!
    Lost In Political Space: The most important takeaway from this latest Labour sexual assault scandal, which (if I may paraphrase Nixon’s White House counsel’s, John Dean’s, infamous description of Watergate) is “growing like a cancer” on the premiership, is the Labour Party organisation’s extraordinary professional paralysis in the face of ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Union solidarity with Ihumatao land occupation
    by Daphna Whitmore Every Sunday for the past two months unionists from First Union, with supporters from other unions, have set out to the Ihumatao land protest, put up gazebos and gas barbeques, and cooked food for a few hundred locals and supporters who have come from across the country. ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 weeks ago

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