More Act infighting

Written By: - Date published: 3:03 pm, March 27th, 2010 - 78 comments
Categories: act, rodney hide - Tags: , , , ,

It’s getting nasty in the ACT party.

According to the NBR [not online], Rodney Hide was left stranded the other day when speaking to an ACT audience on electoral reform. He spoke in support of FPP only to find his views overwhelming rejected by his audience, which supported a democratic, proportional system. That’s a huge embarrassment for a leader,to be so completely off-side with his own party.

Today, the Herald has a strange little attack piece on Hide that has obviously originated from his enemies in the caucus. It concerns a conference of tax dodgers in Fiji that Hide spoke at in 1999.

It’s pretty weak really. I think we wouldn’t have bothered with it had someone sent the story to The Standard. But the fact that it has come out, now obviously from Hide’s enemies within , and the Herald has published it shows how nasty things are getting within Act.

Tracey Watkins suggests that all out civil war is imminent:

As for ACT, any sense of unity of purpose has long ago disintegrated under the weight of personal rivalries and dislike, a protracted caucus war that has left leader Rodney Hide increasingly isolated from his MPs, and a ludicrous and improbable desire among some to replace him with the barely visible Heather Roy.

Former ACT MP Deborah Coddington’s very public condemnation of Ms Roy’s abilities in a newspaper column recently is a sign of how desperate the struggle has become; as Ms Coddington herself admitted, she was hardly a fan of Mr Hide in her time as an MP. But her view is likely to reflect the wider impatience among rank and file over the destructive urges of the parliamentary wing.

Hide can’t last. Roy would be an awful leader. Roger Douglas has the profile and was considered in the adopted coup last year but he’s clearly fading into senility – the man who once revolutionised New Zealand’s economy now reduced to arguing for forcing student associations to be voluntary. Matthew Hooton, meanwhile, is talking up odd-ball John Boscawen. The only MP without backers for leadership is David Garrett.

Disintegration is a real possibility. The consequence of ACT’s straying from it’s economically and socially liberal roots under Douglas and Prebble to reactionism under the nihilist Hide. If a collapse does take place, Key may have to call an early election.

Whatever happens, ACT is effectively dead. It won’t survive to the election like this, and it is hard to imagine it winning a return to Parliament.

78 comments on “More Act infighting ”

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  1. iliveinauck 1
    27 March 2010 at 3:20 pm

    hope your right cant wait to see them gone
    maybe Matthew Hooton can be the new leader hes as mad as hide is

  2. gingercrush 2
    27 March 2010 at 3:20 pm

    There was also a really good piece about this on “The Nation”. I presume TV 3 will have it up on their site today or tomorrow. It really was a good piece and reminded me how politics was once reported.

    BTW on that piece Hooten said they were crazy to get rid of Hide and that Hide was the best person to lead the Act party.

  3. Lanthanide 3
    27 March 2010 at 3:20 pm

    “It won’t survive to the election like this, and it is hard to imagine it winning a return to Parliament.”

    Bold prediction.

  4. Pakeha 4
    27 March 2010 at 3:25 pm

    “It won’t survive to the election like this, and it is hard to imagine it winning a return to Parliament.’

    Wrong Prediction.

    • Marty G 4.1
      27 March 2010 at 3:56 pm

      Because National has the Maori Party’s support to do whatever it wants, Pakeha?

      Tariana’s support, sure, but not Harawira’s

  5. Rich 5
    27 March 2010 at 5:01 pm

    ACT would certainly not survive FPP, except maybe in the form of Hide or someone as Epsom MP, for as long as National doesn’t try and field a strong candidate.

    I guess Hide’s plan would be that under FPP, ACT would become National’s “Militant Tendency” and work from within, rather than contesting elections independently.

    If Hide gets rolled as leader, will he stay in Parliament? If he doesn’t, it’d be a struggle for whoever they try and run in Epsom. Of course, losing Epsom wouldn’t get rid of the coat-tail list MPs – they stay in until the next general election.

    • felix 5.1
      27 March 2010 at 7:37 pm

      I don’t think Epsom would vote for an ACT candidate under FPP – it’s only the “coat tail” list MPs that make it worthwhile. Epsom voters are unofficially represented by five MPs instead of one and without this sweet deal jacked up by the Nats and ACT I think Epsom would revert to it’s true blue nature.

    • RobertM 5.2
      29 March 2010 at 12:52 pm

      Yes but rich, really the disintergration of Act and the weakness of the Green MPs really shows MMP has failed in this country. In my view few of the third party MPs have really been of value, possibly Laila Harre, Franks, Quigley, Deb Morris, Prebble. From the point of view of maintaining right centre and liberal policies I really think even the Clark Government was moved significantly to the left by having to coalesce with Winston Peters and Bradford both of whose policies largely pointed in the direction of a left wing police state.So I don’t think MMP is useful or appropriate in NZ and Rodney Hide is right to argue for first past the post. The Shipley government was the nearest the nation has come to right wing libertarian government and it was wrecked by having to coalesce with Alliance defectors and even Act.

  6. Draco T Bastard 6
    27 March 2010 at 5:19 pm

    It’s an interesting question: What does happen to the list seats when a political party implodes?

    • Rich 6.1
      27 March 2010 at 6:31 pm

      Since the waka-jumping rules have lapsed, all the sitting MPs stay as MPs.

      If any resign as MPs, then assuming a rump of the party still exists legally, then the next unelected candidate on the original list who remains a member gets the seat, unless they decline. If nobody is available, the seat stays unfilled.

      I assume if the party has actually been dissolved, then the vacanices would also remain unfilled.

      If the party has merged into another, I have no idea. Mr Edgeler!

      http://legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0087/latest/DLM309474.html#DLM309474

  7. Anne 7
    27 March 2010 at 5:52 pm

    This is a timely post!
    I was watching the demeanour (or body language if you prefer) of Hide’s Act colleagues in the House this week while he was doing a rant and rave about something. Normally Party colleagues will show their support by nodding their heads and mouthing words such as “:yes that’s right etc. etc.”. They at least try to look interested in what their colleague is saying. Those present – which included Roy and Douglas – were slumped in their seats… heads down… seemingly disconnected with everything that was going on. I’ve never seen it so marked before!

  8. Steve 8
    27 March 2010 at 5:57 pm

    Act collapse? Early election? Yes. The center right have had enough of the tail wagging the dog.

    You may find National could govern alone. Center left Labour voters may jump ship to get a more stable Government without the Act, Maori and Green parties.

    Let’s face it, National is Labourlite. They are not extreme right wing fascists as some would have you believe.
    Muldoon did it and suffered, but this is 2010, things have changed. Labour are too busy telling National what they are doing wrong, instead of saying what they would do if in power.

    Then again I could be wrong.

    Steve

    • Rich 8.1
      27 March 2010 at 6:35 pm

      Key has confidence and supply (64 seats) with Dunne and the Maori Party.

      He wouldn’t need ACT support, but anyway (as above) all the ACT MPs would keep their seats and could be prevailed on individually.

      So any early election would be Key topping up, not a neccesity.

    • Draco T Bastard 8.2
      27 March 2010 at 7:48 pm

      Let’s face it, National is Labourlite.

      Nope, sorry, National are radical right authoritarians. They just posed as Labour Lite for the 2k8 elections and people bought it. It’s the only thing that could have got them elected. If they had electioneered as themselves they would still be in opposition.

      • Jenny 8.2.1
        27 March 2010 at 10:14 pm

        Yes Draco, the same tactic of posing as Labour Lite was used by the Nats in the 1990 elections, which National won with an election plank to the left of the then Labour government, promising to halt privatisations, reverse user pays in tertiary education and the health sector, etc.

        History showed it was all lies, and in fact they actually mostly continued the neo liberal revolution launched by Labour without missing a beat. In 1990 if they had also electioneered as themselves they probalby would (remained) in opposition. Instead they were able to stay in power for three terms. Let us hope that history is not repeated this time around.

    • mickysavage 8.3
      28 March 2010 at 9:44 am

      “Let’s face it, National is Labourlite”

      Yeah right.

      So why have they spent so much time dismantling so much of what Labour achieved?

      This was a PR ploy unmatched by actual behaviour.

  9. Anne 9
    27 March 2010 at 6:21 pm

    Fair enough Steve. Don’t think your scenario is right but… then again I could be wrong. 😀

  10. Anthony Blomfield 10
    27 March 2010 at 6:40 pm

    Well Hey Guys,

    I’m a member of Act -well was, have not paid but still am. As much as I like these exciting political challenges and conflicts I think Act are in OK shape. I don’t see that much leader conflict.

    Act always express their ideas and enjoy having a few arguments.

    I would say this is nice publicity as Act have a small voteage share. But the real truth I think is Acts policys have not been fully emplimented by National so there is some sadness and dispondancy. National is so centralist it’s weird.

    Anyway on another note if I can. I can see why the left get annoyed. In this tough job and economic market some Job creation policy would be useful. I am not that keen on the blame the
    beneficiary’s for our economic performance. Perhaps taxing the Housing industry could be more useful.

    Cheers

    • lprent 10.1
      27 March 2010 at 8:21 pm

      Nice to see an ACToid who isn’t acting like troll…. Keep it up,

    • Zaphod Beeblebrox 10.2
      27 March 2010 at 9:09 pm

      Good on you for supporting your principles. Though I can’t understand how anyone could support your policies, I suspect there will be always room for a right wing party in NZ. The problem is the individuals who you chose as your leaders and their egos not the party itself. Hide is solely dependent upon National voters and Key, not ACT voters, once they decide he is not useful they will dump on him. When that happens get some younger leaders.

  11. Rex Widerstrom 11
    27 March 2010 at 8:43 pm

    Why the description of Rodney as a nihilist? It’s one thing to put a low value of democratic processes, as he seems willing to do, quite another to place a low value on humanity itself. There’s others – Paula Bennett, for one – who’re more deserving of such a monicker and even she wouldn’t truly deserve it.

    Quite how the party slid from liberal capitalism to conservative authoritarianism in the space of half a term is, I suspect, something for a polsci PhD (or at least one of Bryce Edwards’ excellent multi-part analyses).

    How anyone in charge thought it could do so without being entirely repudiated not just by a sizeable chunk of its core support but also by people (like myself) who were even the slightest bit inclined to listen to what they had to say – and even agree with some of it – is more likely the topic for a PhD in forensic psychology :-/

    • Gooner 11.1
      27 March 2010 at 9:31 pm

      Nicely put Rex.

    • r0b 11.2
      27 March 2010 at 9:56 pm

      Quite how the party slid from liberal capitalism to conservative authoritarianism in the space of half a term

      Pah. Words are cheap as chips. You don’t know a party until you see it in power. ACT and the Maori Party haven’t changed. They’re just showing their true colours for the first time.

      • Rex Widerstrom 11.2.1
        28 March 2010 at 4:15 am

        I’ve known a fair few former senior Actoids (MPs and others) personally. Their Pinot Noir would have shot out their nostrils if they’d heard David Garrett speak. Having spent awhile talking politics with these people (and briefly doing some contract consulting for them) I don’t think they were secretly yearning for the day they could apply for the job of hangman at Mt Eden. And even if they’d thought a “supercity” was a grand idea. they had the nous to know that ramming it through was electoral poison.

        Act has morphed the way NZ First morphed. People like myself, Terry Heffernan (RIP – he passed away last week), Brian Donnelly and others weren’t actually ranting racists who sat round all day plotting who’d be the first to take a taxpayer-funded trip to Paris once we got elected, you know. We were what we said we were.

        IN NZF’s case the disease was just as rapid as Act’s and it was casued by just one malign influence – Micael Lhaws. If you read Bryce’s analysis I linked to above, he’s placing the blame squarely at the foot of one man too.

        • mickysavage 11.2.1.1
          28 March 2010 at 9:47 am

          It is one of the curses of small parties. United Future also has gone through this metamorphosis. It was essentially a party of moderates, became a christian party and then in the urge to be relevant hitched up with the hunting and fishing lobby last time. With each attempted ownership of an issue it looked more and more schizophrenic.

          It is now essentially the party of the ego of the coiffured one. Hopefully with Act it will disappear next time.

          • Rex Widerstrom 11.2.1.1.1
            28 March 2010 at 5:26 pm

            That’s a comparison that hadn’t occurred to me (possibly because thinking about Peter Dunne brings me out in a rash) but you’re dead right micky.

            NZF, Act, United Future… possibly now the Maori Party… are all small parties (in NZ at least) doomed to extremism followed by irrelevance?!

            Given that it’s one of the mooted advantages of MMP it’d be good if someone with the time and resources did some sort of serious study into the question…

        • RobertM 11.2.1.2
          29 March 2010 at 1:11 pm

          Rex how many votes are there in tax and welfare cuts and user pays education and heath. There are some votes in lock them up and even execute them, which pretty much sums up the Act vote since 2002 outside Auckland. Possibly there would be votes in a Reaganite party which abandoned paternalism of the Roy, Newman and Coddington sort, recognized all the social worker interventions and CYPS chasing does more harm than good, simply sold any pharamacutical or drug to anybody over 18 who wanted it, crushed all boy racer cars regardless of whose property they were because anyone stupid enough to give them a car deserved it, replaced Income support with a GMI over 28, actually supported the Americans, sent the regualr forces to Afghanistan as an outlet and a duty, brought F-18s and most important of all turned NZ and Auckland into a physical and sexual playground for the worlds OE. In Auckland, Wellington and Queenstown the bars would be open to 4am with a one way door policy from 2am. The police would be armed and in black and would not wear body armour.The general policy would be to end NZs egalitartianism and equalism which is a cruel lie, stop the nonsense and make NZ like the rest of the western world, ripping out almost everything done by Bradford, Clark and Cullen. I agree with you on M Laws

  12. peterthepeasant 12
    27 March 2010 at 8:53 pm

    IF Hide actually spoke in favour of FPP it demonstrates that he has lost any marbles he ever owned.
    Under FPP tiny minority parties die.

    He must have a death wish for himself and ACT.

    • I dreamed a dream 12.1
      27 March 2010 at 9:08 pm

      Maybe Rodney’s indirectly telling the coup plotters that they wouldn’t be in parliament under FPP, and only he would be. He’s telling them they owe their list seats to him.

      • Zaphod Beeblebrox 12.1.1
        27 March 2010 at 9:15 pm

        Hide was voted in by National NOT ACT voters. The reason they voted him in was so that ACT’s 3.8% vote would deliver the right additional list MPs. If they didn’t vote him in there would be 5 less right wing (or ACT) MPs in parliament.

        It was purely a pragmatic vote based upon how the MMP system works. Under FFP he’d be gone under STV he’d certainly be gone because Labour would prefernce against him.

  13. Matthew Hooton 13
    27 March 2010 at 9:28 pm

    “Matthew Hooton, meanwhile, is talking up odd-ball John Boscawen.”

    Where on earth have you got that from? It is totally untrue. I was on TV today saying anyone who thinks Rodney Hide is not the best person to lead Act into the next election is crackers (which may mean I’ve implicitly called 3 or 4 members of their caucus crackers … )

    • Zaphod Beeblebrox 13.1
      27 March 2010 at 11:29 pm

      Isn’t the problem for ACT though, that Hide is completely beholden to National. Its not good that your leader has to toe the National line as 1.Hide was voted in by National voters voting strategically 2. They could cut him loose anytime. There’s still 4 other ACT MPs who they can deal with. His weakness is the whole party’s weakness.

      • Matthew Hooton 13.1.1
        28 March 2010 at 8:54 am

        Your confidence in John Key’s management abilities is to be commended … but I’m not as confident as you are in his (or anyone’s) ability to manage Douglas and Garrett and perhaps even the other two. As has been said, Roger Douglas has undermined every leader he has ever worked for, going back to Norman Kirk. Rodney Hide is in good company with Kirk, Rowling, Lange and Palmer!

        • mickysavage 13.1.1.1
          28 March 2010 at 9:53 am

          Wow, I agree with Matthew.

          Garrett is as mad as a cut snake. He is the price Act has for going after the laura norder vote and is the perfect embodiment of them.

          Just like the movement he is an angry bitter person, totally lacking in understanding of the issues or empathy for the people involved and consumed by his self righteousness.

        • Zaphod Beeblebrox 13.1.1.2
          28 March 2010 at 1:36 pm

          Wasn’t that the point of the Maori Party coalition? So he would have the get out clause from ACT? If there were to be any legislation where the MP objects I’m sure he can offer enough enducements to get at least a couple of the ACT rump onside.

          PS don’t think Key has forgotten the ‘Do nothing PM’ line.

          • Lew 13.1.1.2.1
            28 March 2010 at 2:26 pm

            ZB, it gives Key the ability to play both ends against each other — both ACT and the māori party are dispensable on a given policy matter. A very strong position if he can hold it together, which until now he’s done very well indeed.

            L

  14. Jenny 14
    27 March 2010 at 9:36 pm

    I agree with your summation Marty. ACT will not survive the next election. But in my opinion, their purpose will have been served by then.

    The complete gutting of democracy in New Zealand’s biggest city, and it’s delivery up to undemocratically selected, unacountable, private managers, Rodney Hide, ACT appointees, all, is a major prize.

    This is such a huge coup for the extreme right, that it’s probably been calculated, it is worth even alienating the voters of Epsom, (the only twig of electoral support that keeps ACT in parliament). The real backers of ACT are not really, even the comfortably off burgers of Epsom, (who after all still have to live in Auckland), but the mega rich and the impersonal managers and owners of big business who have the most to gain from the destruction of local body democracy. Such people are such an insignificant minority electorally, that they welcome any return to rule by fiat, because it will increase their power and influence. And if the price is the collapse of ACT, so what. This will just free up the money this sector spends on political donations for the National Party.

    The following is a link to my sole (so far) guest post at The Standard, on the subject of the mega-rich and their political lickspittals in ACT hanker for dictatorship:

    http://www.thestandard.org.nz/nzs-capitalists-dream-of-absolute-power/

    Other comment on this topic:

    http://readingthemaps.blogspot.com/2010/02/maxine-you-can-call-it-art-raid.html

    • Macro 14.1
      27 March 2010 at 9:57 pm

      Spot on Jenny – The real power players in all this are the unseen super wealthy who must be rubbing their hands in glee. Hide and co are but pawns in their game.

  15. Jollies 15
    27 March 2010 at 9:56 pm

    Marty’s grasp of reasonableness is patchy.

  16. Anthony 16
    27 March 2010 at 10:08 pm

    I wish there was a few more big conspiracys in our Government. Makes for fun. Act are not supported by big business. Anyway the super-city was Labour Initiated.

    The supercitys a bit against Acts princibles as is makes everything central controlled and reduces choice. That said Rodneys main protfolios are in reducing compliance and regulation in council. He is doing a pretty cool job at this at the moment.

    Reality is it’s up to us the population on what sort of country we want. Personally I think we would be better of if we had smaller government less regulation and more liberties in the market.

    But I’am becoming more cynical of all politics. But truly guys you could all do some research on what rightwing polices are really about, capitalism lower tax.

    The supercity may be a bit of a poo, perhaps they need to save money to justify the cost of making it. As long as we get a good Mayor such as Len Brown. For a city mayor someone who relates to social issues could be better than an accountant.

    Back to Rodney, he rocks, the party is happy with him. From what I know all the Act MPs are mates. But he’s a little naive -he thought he could change a country, but the country needs to want his vision first. Personally I wish the left did have some real arguments but to me it’s absurd to think Labour policies can help.

    B.

    I’m a fan of Alex Jones

  17. Anthony Blomfield 17
    27 March 2010 at 10:43 pm

    wow. what an article.
    No Roger Douglas made submissions to the select comity to have wards able to compete with each other for services. So one could shop around. I’m abit over the hole lot.

    You guys heard of Alex Jones?

    • Jenny 17.1
      27 March 2010 at 11:36 pm

      I’m sorry Anthony, I’m afraid I don’t know who Alex Jones is. Can you provide me a link to something about him/her? Or maybe someone else might like to enlighten me?

      • travellerev 17.1.1
        28 March 2010 at 7:04 am

        Hi Jenny,

        Alex Jones is the arch patriarch of all “Conspiracy” buffs and a huge presence online.
        He runs two websites and appears on many radio stations with his four hour a day radio program. he is also is a film director of such films as Terror storm and End game.

        He actually predicted the 9/11 attacks in July 2001 based on this world view.

        Alex Jones was rabidly anti Bush and is now equally rabidly against Obama based on the US policies on continual war which have only increased under Obama. He states in his program that his fight is not with the left and that our struggle should not be between people from right of left, race or creed but with the ruling financial elite who is perpetuating the wars of aggression.

        I find myself oddly drawn to this character even though he is a gun toting, loud mouth red neck Texan and I’m more of a left wing bourgeois anarchist type of person into self sustainable greenie stuff (Minus the Carbon hoax I might add).

        As you perhaps know I’m well into the 9/11 information movement and as such I have met many people I would consider to be undesirables previously and some of them are people who have come from the other side of the political spectrum.

        While I never met Alex Jones I met others and some of them can be found on the Patriots question 9/11. You will find hard core US military figures such as Colonel Bowman (former head of the Starwars program under Reagan and dying of Agent Orange poisoning he got when making some 100 sorties over Vietnam, not your kind of guy to hang with for a leftie normally but an all-round decent bloke when I had a chance to speak to him.)

        I find A’s remark about being a fan of Alex Jones somewhat puzzling. Alex Jones is a highly controversial figure and as such mentioning that you are a fan is somewhat confrontational. This combined with is otherwise “reasonable” comments and his mention that he is a member of ACT are in conflict with each other IMHO.

        Hope this helps.

  18. Cactus Kate 18
    28 March 2010 at 3:53 am

    Matthew Hooton said

    “I was on TV today saying anyone who thinks Rodney Hide is not the best person to lead Act into the next election is crackers (which may mean I’ve implicitly called 3 or 4 members of their caucus crackers )”.

    Precisely and I think what they intended to say Matthew, given the other options Marty G put forward, Boscawen is the only other option, in the same way you choose an option between death by choking and death by poison.

  19. Cactus Kate 19
    28 March 2010 at 3:54 am

    P.S: Speaking of open honest debate about leadership of party’s on the basis of poor poll ratings, how are Phil Goff’s numbers looking lately?

  20. Russell Brown 20
    28 March 2010 at 9:14 am

    I find A’s remark about being a fan of Alex Jones somewhat puzzling. Alex Jones is a highly controversial figure and as such mentioning that you are a fan is somewhat confrontational. This combined with is otherwise “reasonable’ comments and his mention that he is a member of ACT are in conflict with each other IMHO.

    Er, hardly.

    Act is packed with kooks and conspiracists, from Muriel Newman to Trevor Loudon. There must still be a few classical liberals barricaded in in one of the rooms, but there are a lot of crazy people in that party.

    I find myself oddly drawn to this character even though he is a gun toting, loud mouth red neck Texan and I’m more of a left wing bourgeois anarchist type of person into self sustainable greenie stuff (Minus the Carbon hoax I might add).

    Oh dear. Perhaps you should join Act after all.

    [Spam word: evidence. Heh.]

    • Lew 20.1
      28 March 2010 at 9:47 am

      Horseshoe thesis strikes again!

      L

    • travellerev 20.2
      28 March 2010 at 10:15 am

      I take it then that you still believe the official crap story about three massive buildings collapsing in a pyroclastic flow into their own footprint in free fall speed (6.5, 10 and 11 seconds) because 19 young mostly Saudi Muslim fanatics told by their Saudi master hiding in a cave in Afghanistan (With dialysis machine and all) told them to do so and they did so after flying around for two hours in the best defended airspace in the world. Which is why we had to attack Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Pakistan, Somalia and in the near future Iran?

      All of this without a shred of evidence because Governments don’t lie?

      Reads like a novel mate and guess what, that was my Capcha

      • Daveosaurus 20.2.1
        28 March 2010 at 12:51 pm

        “All of this without a shred of evidence”

        Apart from the actual film footage of planes crashing into the Towers, you mean?

      • Jollies 20.2.2
        28 March 2010 at 2:35 pm

        oh dear nothing changes here at the standard, this crazy nutjob still turns every discussion into a 911 conspiracy

  21. pollywog 21
    28 March 2010 at 11:17 am

    That’s all good travellerev…

    …but i’m wondering if you can counterfactualise a scenario, an alternate reality, where 9/11 didn’t happen, Bush didnt go to war and Saddam were still in power ?

    i’d imagine Israel woulda drawn the middle east into a no win war situation by nuking Iraq by now and because of it, it probably wouldn’t exist with a ripple effect of jihadist bombings all over the world…

    it’s a tough call, but in allowing the towers to comedown and martyring 3500 or so people ?…is the world a safer place now ? No doubt it’s a richer one for those who may have been in on the conspiracy.

    …dunno eh ? Has A jones got anything to say on ‘what if’ ?

    • prism 21.1
      28 March 2010 at 11:24 am

      In Back to the Future Mike J went back and tweaked actions so they had good outcomes. Wishful thinking and th word if (very powerful two letters) cross my mind quite often. As pollywog says a tweak might give just another different bad outcome.
      Does anyone understand chaos theory? I think that it is – f you have a relatively stable trend line and introduce a variable it can result in totally unpredictable results further down the line.

      • pollywog 21.1.1
        28 March 2010 at 12:29 pm

        As i understand it, Chaotic results over time are dependent on initial conditions. Since initial conditions in complex systems are never the same, no two end results can be the same …

        The butterfly effect. Its enough that it flaps its wings introducing a minor variable that over time may lead to a cyclone being caused some place else or not…who knows ?

        What is known, is that america needs wars and enemies to survive. If they’re not at war their economy stalls. So yeah, it’s not beyond reason that they would create and prolong theatres of war to prop up the military industrial complex. The thing is, we as humans are incapable of peace until we evolve to some next level being that isn’t reliant on competing for fossil fuels to satisfy our energy demands. Meanwhile, most of us are just killing time and wasting space…IMHO

        My view of the bush years was, it was anomaly that over time will flatten out and eventualy no one will remember him, just like Hide and ACT going the ways of all those other bit players that have made entrances and exits full of sound and fury but ulitmately signifying nothing…except that maybe i’m a nihilist.

        Meantime i’m gonna keep flapping 🙂

  22. Jum 22
    28 March 2010 at 12:22 pm

    •
    Draco T Bastard
    27 March 2010 at 7:48 pm
    Reply
    o Jenny
    27 March 2010 at 10:14 pm

    Absolutely right and let’s hope you and the other million plus voters who lived through 80s and 90s leave no stone unturned to dredge this up and make it front and centre at the next election.

    This is paramount. We’ve seen how voters forget when well looked after (1999-2008) just how soul-destroying Douglas-run and National neo-conservative governments can be, not to mention the breathtaking lies that are told and the fake number crunching (Douglas is an expert on that).

    If National, in any form, manages to get back in come 2011 New Zealand will cease to exist as an autonomous, relevant and best godamned little country in the world where people not money matters most. Don’t forget also that money is now no object to them. The professional bloggers Exclusive Brethren/Ashcroft types paid for to bring down Labour will have an open cheque book balance.

    We need to let NAct know that we are going to kick their dream for people domination into the cyanide pit it came out of.

  23. travellerev 23
    28 March 2010 at 12:29 pm

    I find the suggestion that we should waste time fantasising about what might have been rather peculiar. I would call that “theorising” and I am not prepared to do that. The reality is that due to the attacks on 9/11 more than a million Iraqis have died, more than 5 million are displaced and thousands of children get born with birth defects due to heavy metal and Depleted Uranium poisoning even though they had absolutely nothing to do with the attacks.

    The reality is that 9 years after the attacks we are still in Afghanistan were innocent people get caught in the crossfire and also the entire country and it’s population (including the foreign soldiers I might add) are contaminated with Depleted Uranium and both wars were started because we had to fight Osama bin Laden (not caught), free women (less free now than ever) give them a Democracy (Now a more corrupt and illegal unelected government) and all because we are told they hate us for our freedoms (which have been heavily curbed in the aftermath).

    So if it’s all the same to you I would like to stay firmly grounded in the present and in the reality of wars started because 3000 people died (one New Zealander amongst them) in attacks that could not have possibly been done by 19 young Saudi Arabs (which we haven’t bombed back to the stone age funny enough) with box cutters. That consumes more than enough of my time.

    My captcha is WORN and that is how I feel sometimes while dealing with the reality of 9/11, the victims relatives who want answers and the 70.000 sick and dying first responders who get no help whatsoever for their heroic action while trying to save people during the attacks and cleaning up the pile afterward’s. For them 9/11 did not stop on that day, it is still very much ongoing.

    And no, I have no idea what Alex Jones has to say about it either but I’m sure he works to hard to waste time fantasising about alternate futures.

    • pollywog 23.1
      28 March 2010 at 12:52 pm

      Fair enough but im more interested in my own ‘monkeysphere’ and working on changes i know i can implement for the better within that.

      http://www.cracked.com/article_14990_what-monkeysphere.html

      Who knows… in a ‘many worlds’ theory 9/11 didnt happen and maybe their world is even more fucked ? If interdimensional travel to alternate realites is a by product of the new energy, maybe you can go there, see and report back or stay there ?

      As for fantasising about what might have been here in this reality. The point is to counterfactualise scenarios and make more informed choices going forward, based on better options and outcomes before action is initiated. It’s more proactive than the reactive choices you make and makes us better prepared for the consequences.

      Some live in the past, some live in the present, me… i live in a future i haven’t created yet but i know what it is. I’m not just blindly moving around in spacetime.

  24. travellerev 24
    28 March 2010 at 1:08 pm

    Deep Pollywog, very deep.

    My way forward is simple. Do a good and independent Crime investigation into what happened on 9/11 so that NY and it’s traumatised citizens and the first responders can get on with their lives and help them as much as we can with medical and financial support.

    Arrest those who perpetrated the attack and if it turns out that it was indeed Osama bin Laden then arrest the f*&ker and try him in a huge (Nuremberg comes to mind) public trial but if it turns out that it was the Bush family and their cronies do the same.

    Stop the wars of aggression and prosecute the war criminals who are still at it unrepentant and will do so until we say enough is enough and indeed since I don’t think that is ever going to happen I, like you, am very interested in my own “monkey sphere” (great description by the way. In fact I call my community my monkey hill. LOL)

    Be SAFE, which was coincidently my captcha.

    Update: Great link by the way

    • pollywog 24.1
      28 March 2010 at 1:24 pm

      Live long and prosper traveller… 🙂

      • travellerev 24.1.1
        28 March 2010 at 4:10 pm

        No there were actual planes flying into the building no problem there. They just did n9t hit the third building. Building 7 was the third building to collapse in New York at 5:20 p.m. in the afternoon. This building apparently lost all strength over a couple of light office fires which should make you very worried about building safety. Here the link showing said collapse. If after watching this you still think that light office fires in a building not compromised one way or another in its strength can collapse like that I have litlle hope for you.

        The gentleman in the video is the father of Bobby McIlvaine who die on 911. He wants a new and independent investigation. I and thousands of other people want to help him get it.

        To Jollies; Another commentator stated he was a fan of Alex Jones and Jenny wanted to be informed about who he is and I did so. Other commentators took it further from there and I will always take my chances to give more information about the event which to this day is shaping our world.

        You might want to check out some of the links and than we’ll talk further about who the nut job is.

        Cheers P, you too. LOL

  25. Steve 25
    28 March 2010 at 5:51 pm

    “ACT infighting” has now become “911 bullshit”
    Didn’t people get banned for being off topic?
    OK.
    When Phool Goff was looking for the PM, where was the PM?
    Oh fuck my foot hurts so bad

  26. Jum 26
    28 March 2010 at 7:07 pm

    I hope nobody’s answering Cactus Kate. She doesn’t bother to answer or even allow perfectly acceptable posts on her blog if she doesn’t agree with them. I’ve just come from the dictator blog on Hide. Seems there’s a few more mini dictators out there in the rightwing blogosphere.

  27. RobertM 27
    29 March 2010 at 1:39 pm

    Jenny, local body democracy in Auckland has failed. The downtown it tatty and seedy, the bars and clubs less blatant, beautiful and outrageous than Wellington, where the waitresses and barmaids all sport cleavage and micro minis and are often long legged californians. The Auckland library is far too small and many have to sit on the floor to browse. The bus service is kaotic. The local concillors are oddballs, eccentrics, extremists and flakes. Rodneys reforms of Auckland are the most valuable thing he can do, because never again must the likes of Sue Bradford, Hucker or Northey get any power in Auckland

    • Jenny 27.1
      29 March 2010 at 8:06 pm

      Well Robert what can I say. Your comments as well as being disturbingly misogynist. The list of left leaning councillors you provided and your summation that Hide’s reforms will prevent the electorate from ever being able to choose such councillors again in the future, (even if this is the democratic wish of the majority of ratepayers.)

      Exposes that the deepest desires of ACT party supporters is for dictatorship and an instinctive hatred of democracy.

      If you haven’t done it already, I think you need to go and visit the farm.

      http://readingthemaps.blogspot.com/2010/02/maxine-you-can-call-it-art-raid.htm

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3029220/Gibbs-to-tell-how-he-d-rule-the-world

      For being such a loyal acolyte of the extreme right you just might be welcomed in with open arms they may even waive the $200 entry fee for a loyal trooper like you.

      Just say Jenny sent you.

    • Jenny 27.2
      29 March 2010 at 8:21 pm

      Well Robert what can I say. Your comments as well as being disturbingly misogynist. The list of left leaning councillors you provided, and your summation that Hide’s reforms will prevent the electorate from ever being able to choose such councillors again in the future, (even if this is the democratic wish of the majority of ratepayers.)

      Is a further exposure, (if one was needed), that the deepest desires of ACT party supporters is for dictatorship and an instinctive hatred of democracy.

      If you haven’t done it already, I think you need to go and visit the farm.

      http://readingthemaps.blogspot.com/2010/02/maxine-you-can-call-it-art-raid.htm

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3029220/Gibbs-to-tell-how-he-d-rule-the-world

      Robert as a supporter of the extreme right, your views will be welcome at the farm, they may even waive the $200 entry fee for a loyal trooper like yourself.

      Just say Jenny sent you.

      • RobertM 27.2.1
        4 April 2010 at 9:28 pm

        Well Jenny I like a bit of leg but I wouldn’t class myself as an Act supporter. An Australian liberal idologically possibly because its more of a broad church and I do not share the conservatism which characterises all current National MPs. I’m a believer in a 30% tax not 15% and I don’t believe in the radical social mobility that Act believes in. In my view neither upward or downward social mobility is very desirable and the only mobility possible in modern American society is mobility thru sex or sport and possibly that is all that will count most of all. Most of all unlike Act I take defence seriously and believe it is the key issue even for NZ. Act people say defence is of no importance to NZ, but their wrong, in a sense we’ll always be partly independent from Australia because of distance and culture but essentially we share a common defence interest with Australia and the West and its nonsense to say where a small nation and anything but an army can not be sophisticated. Denmark and Norway have destroyers, 70-F-16s each and numerous submarines and they have little more population than us. Unlike Act and Clark I don’t think our future is just agriculture and as a haven for ordinary people and minorities. I beleive NZ can support a large sophisticated population. I believe it is possible here. I don’t think like Alan Gibbs I believe change is partly thru the economic mechanistm but its only a means and a partial answer, social and political methods of change must accompany economic levers. My dislike of Hucker is because he introduced water metering as a trade off which I believe is very right wing and because his faction of the Auckland left favoured the rail system to support rail corridors of low cost state and council housing, that approach failed in Portland and Sheffield and is essentially a 1930s approach only taken seriously still in Australia and NZ. My view has always been that light rail and buses are essentailly for the middle and upper class and singles,the strockbroker belt and under 40s in most advanced western democracies. The poor want to escape to polluting cars to keep their brats out of site as soon as they can. I do favour light rail in NZ 3 largest cities radiating in 5 kilometre city routes from city centres because with global warming and economic change the middle class will concentrated in rich suburbs and apartments close to the centre of cities and the poorer you= are the furthur out you will live. If you want to be cynical its the sort of model Pretorious has established in Kabul and Bagdad. I intensely dislike Bradford, Cullen and Clark because of the Bradford Mental Health Act of about 2002 which was a far too radical step backwards to reinstating the power of psychiatrist and mental hospitals and redefined sanity on the subjective test of ‘can you look after yourself’ from the previous and alternative test of do you have a disordered mind. The problem in psychiatry is that the hospitals were finally closed about 1989 ten years before the new drugs were available which were then perscriped in excessive and distabalising doses that required other drugs and monitoring to balance them. So Bradford is an emotional leftist driven by her ideology personal and family tragedy and experiences . What finally destroyed my faith in Labour was Clark and Cullens collapse of courage on this issue and their belief in artificial employment creation rather than efficieny and freeing people to live free independent lives for pleasure in an advanced society. The blogger Kim claims I am a zealot. I don’t believe so I just someone who believes we can do it here that we can be an advanced society and someone who does what is required to win on the issues I believe in.

  28. Beth 28
    29 March 2010 at 9:58 pm

    I met Rodney Hide in a bar once just after the election. I was trying to stammer out how desperately I loathed him but I was too distracted by how much he look like a Ferengi from Star Trek.
    Then I got home and googled ‘Ferengi’ and discovered that Rodney Hide actually WAS a Ferengi.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferengi

    • mickysavage 28.1
      29 March 2010 at 10:53 pm

      Spooky. He really looks the part. This passage from Wikipedia applies:

      The Ferengi realize that Humans and other species often look down on them for their ravenous profiteering and lack of independent technological or cultural achievements.

      Classic

  29. RobertM 29
    4 April 2010 at 9:48 pm

    Yes Jenny, but what have the left achieved in Auckland. Bruce Hucker gave us water metering as a trade off, which is very right wing. Northey was apparently a brilliant student but achieved little in government or council. Bradford is an advocate of large asylums and social workers and appears emotional and driven too much by personal experience and tragedy. She will probably be remembered for her 2002 mental health legislation but its more restrictive and subjective approach represented a failure of courage by Clark and Cullen who redefined mental illness as a ability to look after yourself , a subjective test not objective. In fact that problem might have resolved itself if the new drugs introduced in the late l990s had been given more time to work in low doses in a less prescriptive environmnet. Generally the Auckland left sees the rail and public transport as serving corridors of low cost council and state housing- but thats an outdated approach that failed in Sheffield and Portland. Generally the dev of light rail and commutter rail in the modern world is succesful when its serves singles and the middle class and even the stockbroker belts as in London, Tokyo and Connecticut. Actually in auckland, wellington and christchurch I favour short distance light rail on streets radiating 5km from the city centres serving rich suburbs and middle class populations living close in as the well off will relocate under global warming. The poorer you are the furthur out you will live and the less well served. Its sort of the model Pretorious has established in Kabul and Bagdad.

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