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Nat Minister unhappy, leaks Key email

Written By: - Date published: 9:29 am, February 18th, 2009 - 53 comments
Categories: national/act government - Tags: , , ,

Well, that didn’t take long.

In the first 100 days of the new National government we’ve seen a clamp-down on workers’ rights, tax cuts for the rich, and now tying everything up nicely in a big bow, we have the first leaked National Party email of the term.

Another day, another leak in the National Party. We shouldn’t be surprised. Getting into government was never going to stop the problem. But in this instance we should be even less surprised considering the contents of John Key’s email to his Ministers.

In the leaked email John Key admits to his Ministers straight out there IS NO NEW PLAN, infrastructure or any other spending plan, to deal with the economic downturn and all spending must be funded within existing baselines and that Ministers must simply rather ‘reprioritise’.

“Given the challenging fiscal position that we have inherited and the weakness of the economy, we need to focus and target our efforts to achieve maximum impact.”

“The Minister of Finance has written to you to outline the implications of the fiscal outlook…. It will not come as a surprise to hear that there is little new money, and that we will all need to reprioritise within our baselines.”

Barack Obama and Kevin Rudd may have huge stimulus packages to get their respective economies going, but in New Zealand our former merchant banker Prime Minister knows better: tighten the belt and restrict spending.

Obviously at least one of his Ministers doesn’t agree and is worried the impact Key’s inaction will have on National’s 2011 election hopes. Because if the economy goes under, unemployment hits record highs, and small enterprises start going under, we’ll know whose inaction to blame.

(Read Nicky Hagar’s full account of the latest leak here. It’s worthwhile. You might as well read Steve’s analysis too if you haven’t already.)

53 comments on “Nat Minister unhappy, leaks Key email”

  1. BLiP 1

    Yet more evidence of an indolent MSM in collusion with the big-business captured National Party – surprise surprise

  2. Redbaiter 2

    I dunno what the point of the post is. If it is to allege disloyalty within the National Party then its a pretty thin allegation. If its to say that a “stimulus” package is necessary in NZ then I disagree. Lets get one thing straight here. The word “stimulus” is just a euphemism, as most socialist terms are.

    What Krudd and Zerobama are doing is so bad, its hard for me to find a term that I consider accurate. I don’t know. Banditry? Vandalism? Nope, just completely inadequate.

    The socialist’s “stimulus” is merely a grab bag of politically correct nonsense. Left liberal obsessions brought from dreamworld to some kind of intangible reality by means of money that doesn’t exist.

    The whole thing stinks to high heaven, and even a casual look at where the money is going shows a staggering level of corruption and pork barrel politics.

    $4.2 billion to ACORN for example, the fraudsters who played a big part in the campaign of trickery and deceit and gangsterism that brought Zerobama to the white house. What the damn hell does this stimulate except more fraud.

    Handouts in Australia coincided with massive increases in turnover at gambling outlets.

    I’m surprised that Key and the Nationals appear to understand that to follow in the footsteps of Krudd and Zero would be the wrong path, but hell, if they truly do realise this, maybe there is actually some small degree of hope for them and New Zealand in the long term.

    PS-

    ..and journalists, show some spine you yellow politically partisan scum. You traitors to the concept of democracy.

    The word “stimulus” is propaganda.

    If you had an iota of self respect, you would stop using it.

  3. TomS 3

    Does anyone else just not read anything that starts with “Redbaiter?”

  4. Daveski 4

    Sigh … the Standard is getting very sloppy indeed.

    Spin busting myth # 1 – clamp down on workers rights

    The 90 bill only affects new employees and only those working for companies with 20 employees or less.

    [and those people are workers, eh? SP]

  5. Alex 5

    “Sigh the Standard is getting very sloppy indeed.

    Spin busting myth # 1 – clamp down on workers rights

    The 90 bill only affects new employees and only those working for companies with 20 employees or less.”

    Obviously new workers aren’t workers?

  6. Tane 6

    I’m with TomS.

    Daveski – workers in their first 90 days are still workers. Trying to argue that the removal of the right of workers to appeal against unfair dismissal is not removing workers’ rights is, frankly, absurd.

  7. What is wrong with that email? It seemed truthful of the situation that New Zealand is in?

  8. Tane 8

    Read the linked Hager piece Brett. All is explained.

  9. Worker 9

    Don’t see anything in this that JK hasn’t already been open with to the NZ public. It has probably been leaked on purpose to show that what JK is saying in public is what he is also saying within his party.

  10. Okay, I will have it a read, we all know how fair and balanced Hager is.

  11. Tigger 11

    Is Redbaiter on drugs? Or working in Key’s office?

    National have no plan – the sooner the population sees that the sooner this mess of a government can collapse in upon itself and be shunted on.

  12. Doubt Redbaiter works in Key’s office, he’s unemployable.

  13. Tigger 13

    And can a rightie explain to me why National are cutting jobs at MSD in a time of high unemployment? I mean, yeah it’s the government’s biggest employer but I figure with more people on welfare and out of work their might be MORE work for MSD, not less…

    Not to mention why you would pull much needed money out of the building sector by canning work on various government buildings (including that soft furnishings budget!)….pulling money out of the economy is hardly going to help our bottom line. If the government stops spending then we’re all up the creek… Mr Key, is it that your friends build roads and don’t supply soft furnishings? And I thought you said you had gay friends!

  14. djp 14

    Why is it that you guys advocate almost every fallacy enumerated in the classic “Economics in One Lesson” by Henry Hazlett

    Download it here: http://fee.org/library/books/economics-in-one-lesson/

  15. Daveski 15

    At the risk of getting caught up in a semantic war of attrition, a change that affects a small group of people does not by definition affect all workers. Semantics admittedly but it’s no worse that implying that all workers are now worse off under National which is what is being implied.

    To take your logic further, increases to the top tax bracket affect all workers because all workers potentially can earn $60K +.

    While semantics, it’s simply not try that all workers rights have been slashed by National – that’s simply your spin.

  16. Tane 16

    Daveski, the removal of rights from one sector of the workforce actually does affect other sectors in various ways, but I’m not interested in getting into the semantics of your argument here because I think it’s irrelevant.

    This is all actually very simple. What the post said was: “we’ve seen a clamp-down on workers’ rights”, and we have.

    The removal of rights at work by definition means there’s been a clamp-down on workers’ rights. To argue otherwise is simply absurd.

  17. Matthew Pilott 17

    Daveski, also remember that since you no longer work with one employer for life, the 90-day bill will affect a lot of people. Weren’t the estimates at around 500,000 a year (the number of people who move from one job to another)?

    That’s a bit more directly relevant that your tax example, because these are people actually affected, not hypothetically, if they get a whopping pay rise.

  18. Daveski 18

    MP – the issue only arises if one works for an organisation employing 20 or less staff which is the other point I was making.

    It’s not absurb to argue that it does not or will not affect every worker or indeed every worker who changes job.

    Likewise, one could argue that the impact of the law benefits the unemployed as employers may be more willingly to take risks.

    You simply can’t make blanket statements based on your perspective and try to present it as unarguable fact.

  19. BLiP 19

    Daveski said:

    ” . . . You simply can’t make blanket statements based on your perspective and try to present it as unarguable fact. . . ”

    The National Party removed the rights of workers by deception in a move designed to circumvent democracy. That is fact. Your wriggling around trying to soften the reality of the situation doesn’t make it any less of a fact and nor does it soften the impact of the legislation.

    Why are you defending this?

  20. Billy 20

    The National Party removed the rights of workers by deception in a move designed to circumvent democracy. That is fact.

    If, by deception, you mean they campaigned on it, received a mandate and then enacted it, then I guess, yes, they were highly deceptive.

  21. BLiP 21

    Billy said:

    ” . . . If, by deception, you mean they campaigned on it, received a mandate and then enacted it, then I guess, yes, they were highly deceptive. . . . ”

    Under urgency without warning? Yep – you’re right. It was deceptive. It was also hypocritical given Goober John Key’s statement in relation to National wanting to keep New Zealanders in employment and then the first thing it does is pass fire-at-will legislation.

  22. Daveski 22

    BLIP

    An important point. I’m not defending something on principle eg blindly defending the EFA which is a no-go topic here for obvious reasons.

    I’m simply pointing out to argue that “all workers” have been screwed by the National Government is complete spin which largely goes unchallenged here because of the nature of the govt.

    Myth # 2 was that the Nats will cut your wages. Even when proven to be wrong, the spin continues.

    I respect your right, and that of Tane, MP, and others to view the legislation as potentially negative for some workers. But it is patently not true to state as fact workers rights have been removed without considerable qualification.

  23. Matthew Pilott 23

    Daveski, ‘rights’ have been unequivocally reduced. That is a cold, hard and unarguable fact.

    You had many workplace rights, none of which apply for a period of 90 days in new employment, for all workers, unless they are employed by a large organisation.

    There may be benefits to having these rights removed, but that does not make the statement false; rather, your view of what a ‘right’ is isn’t correct.

  24. mike 24

    You guys make me laugh – the same idiots who were screaming blue murder about the Nats borrowing a few billion more than Labour did are now crying that we aren’t going to be in enough debt.

    Also, please don’t quote Rod Oram as if there is any balance to his articles he’s just as deluded as hager

  25. Tane 25

    Daveski, I’m not wasting any more time on you. You’re free to spend all day constructing semantic arguments about how removing the rights of workers isn’t removing workers’ rights. Frankly I’ve got better things to do.

  26. Daveski 26

    My last sentence in my last post missed the word “all” which leaves the comment looking a little naive to say the least.

    MP The potential impact of the law is limited to new workers for organisations employing less than 20 workers. Happy to agree with you that “rights” for people in these situations may have changed.

    That is not the same as calling it a “clampdown on workers rights”.

    I’ll happily withdraw from this discussion (unless suitably riled :)) – I’m not trying to stir anything up but there is at least IMO an issue with the statement. Accept it will be seen differently by others here. I’ll move on.

  27. Tane 27

    And Mike, stop being stupid. Economic circumstances change, and when that happens your policy responses need to change with them. If you don’t understand this then there’s no helping you.

  28. BLiP 28

    Daveski

    Okay – you were right – it is semantics. There are still 108,000 workers affected by the new law. I would posit that the legislation provides the thin end of the wedge for the removal of other workers rights. But, yes, okay, not ALL workers are affected immiedaitely by this one Act.

    Wages have been reduced, or will be reduced, by the so called tax cuts National is planning – another example of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer

  29. the sprout 29

    Hardly surprising that email was leaked and dissent within National is brewing – I’d be very worried if I were part of that caucus and hoping to get re-elected in 2011.

    It won’t take very long at all for the Key administration to get a reputation as a Do Nothing Government as economic and social woes increase while all they can come up with is symbolic but ineffective gimmicks.

    “…we need to focus and target our efforts to achieve maximum impact”

    Yep that’s the truth John, at this rate you’ll need to sell every little half-arsed imitation of a real plan as hard as you can for anyone to believe anything’s being done at all.

  30. sweeetdisorder 30

    Oh dear, just when labour thought they were on a roll again, along comes tonights tv3 poll. Will Goff last till spring? I think not.

  31. Matthew Pilott 31

    sweeetdisorder – I don’t think Labour ‘thought they were on a roll’ as such and in a position to improve on polls (three years out from the election, I’m sure the panic will set in!) but nice of you to acknowledge they were doing well.

  32. mike 32

    Read em and weep lefties:

    National 60%
    Labour 27%
    Greens 7%

    Preferred PM:

    John Key 52%
    Helen Clark 14%
    Phil Goff 4%

    And isn’t this the poll you guys hang your hat on. Bye bye phil…

  33. sweeetdisorder 33

    Mat

    yes, I thought they were just starting to ask a few telling questions, but then I am a polli geek and most of what I see/hear/read goes unreported/unexamined.

    oh well, too bad, never mind.

  34. monkey boy 34

    Wow – if that is the Nats in trouble, I wonder what they look like when they are on a roll!! No wonder Key wants Helen ‘shipped off’ as soon as possible so he can ‘dismantle her legacy’!!
    Might I suggest that on this recent poll, Phil Goff has much better motives for this than John Key?

    http://monkeyswithtypewriter.blogspot.com/2009/02/labours-love-is-lost.html

  35. jimbo 35

    Tane,

    It seems you believer that the 90 day “fire at will” act (as you keep misrepresenting it) is a case of “removing workers rights” because it impacts on whether or not currently unemployed people will be in employment 6 months from now. Is that right?

    In that case, to be consistent you must also believe that raising the minimum wage is “removing workers’ rights”… Why? Because raising the minimum wage stops people who are currently prepared to work for less from getting a job. The worker has lost his “right” to set the price of his labour at a low enough rate to get back into the workforce.

    The phrase “removing workers’ rights” is rolled out by the Left when it doesn’t want to properly debate the merits of a particular policy. It’s basically a shorthand way of saying “You (the Right) are wrong and do not care about people as much as I do. My motivations are more pure than yours so therefore my policies are the best”.

    You don’t want to debate “semantics” so fair enough. Just thought I’d say the “workers rights” refrain has been abused so much by the Left, and thrown around with such astonishing intellectual laziness, that no-one really gives it any credence.

  36. Felix 36

    jimbo,

    Or maybe it’s because the bill removes a bunch of workplace rights for the first 90 days.

  37. Pascal's bookie 37

    jimbo. so it’s like you lot with “property rights” then?

  38. Oliver 38

    I think that those two paragraphs of email drive home an important point. The govt has sweet fa money floating around to use because Labour managed to screw the govt’s books. Therefore the new national govt has to be careful. Nothing wrong with that. they also want to avoid borrowing so much that we’re forever screwed trying to pay it off. nothing wrong with that either.

  39. r0b 39

    If, by deception, you mean they campaigned on it [abolish worker’s rights bill], received a mandate and then enacted it, then I guess, yes, they were highly deceptive.

    It’s not like you to spout such arrant nonsense Billy. National didn’t “campaign on it” – if you can find any reference to it anywhere in National’s speeches or campaign material I will be very surprised. It was on their web site, and discussed on sites like this one, so it was seen by what – 0.1% of voters? They didn’t campaign on it, they had no mandate for it, they enacted it under urgency in a gross violation of the democratic process.

    Arguably, in fact, National didn’t campaign on anything except not being Labour, and tax cuts. Now that they are government it is abundantly clear that they haven’t a clue. Buckle up NZ, the next 3 years will be bumpy.

  40. jimbo 40

    Felix, anyone who”s been in a job for over 90 days has “lost” absolutely nothing.

    Let’s be absolutely clear who you’re referring to when you refer to “workers’ rights” (i.e. who you’re “fighting for”).

    Your “worker” in this case is someone who (a) didn’t have any job at all until he was (b) taken on board by an employer who wanted to give him a chance, but who (c) didn’t turn out to be what the employer was looking for (or was maliciously fired by the employer despite being fine at their job).

    Amongst (c), there are at least the following categories:
    (1) Despite doing everything right, boss maliciously fired them.
    (2) Despite doing everything right, boss fired them because of economic downturn.
    (3) Unable to do the job – intentionally misrepresented their ability during interview.
    (4) Unable to do the job – job turned out to be “bigger” than they were expecting. Just couldn’t step up despite making best efforts.
    (5) Lazy.
    (6) Criminal.

    Sure, the Act might need extra protections for category (1) and (2) people above, but to broadly state that “workers rights” have been taken away in the case of a previously unemployable, lazy employee who misrepresented his CV in order to get a job is total nonsense. Why do you fight for such a person? Why not help employers deal with them?

    This is not about “Workers’ rights” – it’s about trying to reddress an INFORMATION IMBALANCE. A potential employee might TELL YOU he is hardworking, competent and able to do the job, but in actual fact he could turn out to be wrong on all counts.

    Similarly, an employer could TELL YOU that the job is good hours, has fun co-workers, and is interesting. If you take that job but change your mind within the first 90 days, you can walk away without paying one cent compensation to the employer.

    The 90 day probation period evens up the information disparity that exists when new worker meets new job/employer – workers can leave at any time for any reason at all if they find out their decision to accept the job offer was “wrong”.

    In short, to say 90 days probation is taking away workers rights is, frankly, so intellectually lazy it’s laughable.

    Pascal – don’t understand your property rights comment.

  41. Tane 41

    jimbo. It helps to know the law before making an arse of yourself on the Internet.

    A lazy, criminal or incompetent employee can be sacked now, it just requires natural justice and a fair process. That fair process is the way we find out which ones are the lazy, criminal or incompetent ones, and which ones are just being unfairly treated by their boss.

    No worker wins by losing the right to a fair process, and in fact it’s the good ones who have the most to lose.

    That right-wingers are now absurdly trying to argue the removal of the right to a fair process in employment isn’t a removal of work rights shows just how desperate they are to defend this indefensible law.

  42. jimbo 42

    r0b – the latest polls show that, on balance, National’s voters have absolutely no problem with the law (or the way in which is was passed). It’s therefore a bit of a moot point to argue about how many people know the details of the policy beforehand.

    Like many others who comment here, you provocatively insist on referring to it as “abolishing workers’ rights”, which shows you’re not really equipped to properly assess the pros and cons of the measure.

    For the record, I think passing the law under urgency was a bit stupid politically. It was designed to make the new govt appear to be decisive and delivering on its promises. I think using urgency for political expediency should have been avoided, if nothing else to contract with the actions of the previous govt.

  43. jimbo 43

    Tane –

    You’re making an arse of yourself by casting around the insults – why the need to fall into ad hominem attacks?

    You’ve selectively chosen one tiny piece of my post and avoided responding to any parts of it that cannot be attacked on woolly grounds like “workers’ rights” or “fair process”.

    I understand the law and the reasons for it. Clearly there have been concerns that “fair process” is too complicated in certain circumstances. Employers are losing money and time because of “procedural missteps”. That potential for loss of time and money means employers are less likely to take a chance on a new, unproven employee.

    The new law effectively says – if the SUBSTANCE of the employer’s position is right, but the PROCEDURE that they followed during the first 90 days was wrong, nevertheless the employee has to leave.

    The new law is evening up (during the first 90 days) some of the “unfair” consequences of dogmatically sprouting “DUE PROCESS DUE PROCESS”, without bothering to consider the wider effects of such an approach.

    The law is saying “due process will now be different during the first 90 days”.

    You said “No worker wins by losing the right to a fair process, and in fact it’s the good ones who have the most to lose”. Care to lay a bit more meat on that bone? What do you mean? Why do “good ones” suffer from this law when these good ones are currently unemployed and presumably desperate to be given a chance to prove themselves.

  44. Tane 44

    It’s quite simple. Right now if you’re a competent employee your job is safe except in situations of redundnacy. Once the new law comes into effect your job is not safe – you can be sacked for no reason at all.

    If you’re lazy, incompetent or criminal you can be sacked now anyway for your laziness, incompetence or criminality.

    The reality is this law punishes competent employees the most and leaves all new workers in small businesses in fear that their economic livelihood could be taken out from under them at any time without warning.

    All this “desperate to prove themselves” rhetoric is nonsense. Aside from the slavish master-servant employment relationship you seem to be promoting, there’s no evidence that allowing bosses to sack their workers more easily will create any new jobs. Jobs exist because there is work to be done, not because it’s easier to fire people.

    You complain a lot about how hard it is to manage people. Well I’ve got news for you buddy, according to every international measure we’re one of the easiest places in the world to employ people and to do business. If you can’t even manage the basic task of managing people competently then you shouldn’t be a manager, it’s that simple.

  45. r0b 45

    It’s therefore a bit of a moot point to argue about how many people know the details of the policy beforehand.

    There are moot points (all good fun), and there is re-writing history (which is a form of propaganda). Billy was rewriting history. But I can’t stay to chat alas…

  46. jimbo 46

    Tane,

    Disagree – it’s NOT simple – it’s a careful balancing between the interests of society as a whole and the people who will be affected by the law (i.e. employers, new employees and potential new employees). You guys THINK it’s simple and keep sloganeering – you’d do your cause a lot more favours if you actually engaged on substance.

    For example, your first paragraph is scaremongering and simply not correct. I am a competent employee who has been with my current employer for 2 years – are you saying I can now be fired?

    Right now, if you’re an employee and you’ve been in a job for 90 days or more, nothing has changed at all. This applies whether you’re competent or not. So let’s keep the focus on those first 90 days and on people who previously did not have a job (or who decide to move jobs). It’s not “workers”. At best, it’s a subset of “workers” or it’s a new category called “people who want to become workers” (which they will as soon as they get through the first 90 days).

    Before the Act, if an employer filled a job and it didn’t turn out right (for any reason at all), that employer was faced with the prospect of significant cost and expense to implement “due process”. Employers were saying “this whole process is putting us off taking the risk of employing someone”.

    Society NEEDS economic risk-takers. Without risk-taking, there will be no growth.

    So the Act has responded to a perceived problem with the status quo by saying “lets modify due process during the first 90 days”. The reason the Act does this is because Parliament believes the modification will have positive incentive effects (that outweigh any associated negative incentive effects).

    I can list the positive effects of the law for ages. You can list the negative ones. (Previous threads have canvassed a lot of it.) On balance, Parliament has decided that the positive effects outweigh the negative ones and therefore society is better off if we pass the law.

    Sprouting on about “trampling works rights” or “eliminating due process” doesn’t make your position any better – or morally superior – to mine.

    If your definition of “workers rights” is so broad as to include “a right during the first 90 days of employment to the dismissal process as it existed immediately before
    passage of the law”, then yes, this new law takes away a workers’ right.

  47. jimbo 47

    Tane – I missed the bit in your comment about how I was promoting a “slavish master-servant employment relationship”. Made me laugh.

    God knows how you read that into any of my posts – I can only imagine that you’ve got a sloganeering gremlin in your computer madly adding things into any text on your page!

  48. Matthew Pilott 48

    jimbo, are you living in a 70’s utopia where you get a job and are in it for life, or are you with us in this brave new millenium where people change jobs on average every five years?

    The implication therein that the law will affect more than just those new to the workforce.

    Hence ‘workers’.

    The law does not take away “a workers’ right.” It takes every right of every worker in their first 90 days of employment, with the exception of about 5% of employers due to size.

  49. jimbo 49

    Matthew – are you living in a 1920’s nightmare where all employers are factory-owning, cigar-smoking, fat capitalists who exploit penniless workers under candlelight or have you entered the brave new millenium where (gasp!) society’s growth depends in large part on the efforts of small employers who are (often) no better off than many “workers”?

    You’ve come blazing into the debate, rattled off a pithy little insult to try and imply I’m a head-in-the-sand conservative who’s opinions are arguments are therefore without merit. You’ve made ABSOLUTELY ZERO attempt to address any of the substance in my previous posts.

    Your last paragraph is so bad you’ve decended into self-parody (basically proved my point about the descent into thoughtless sloganeering). I’m assuming you did it on purpose to be ironic.

  50. Matthew Pilott 50

    jimbo, take a breath and read it again.

    You said:

    So let’s keep the focus on those first 90 days and on people who previously did not have a job (or who decide to move jobs). It’s not “workers’. At best, it’s a subset of “workers’ or it’s a new category called “people who want to become workers’ (which they will as soon as they get through the first 90 days).

    To which I made the point that

    … people change jobs on average every five years?

    The implication therein that the law will affect more than just those new to the workforce.

    Hence ‘workers’.

    To analyse, since you insisted on not getting it the first time around, it’s not some special new subset of workers, the law change can affect anyone and everyone. Hence ‘workers’, not your proposed subset, by which you were trying to dismiss the full effect and scope of the law.

    You also posited that:

    If your definition of “workers rights’ is so broad as to include “a right during the first 90 days of employment to the dismissal process as it existed immediately before passage of the law’, then yes, this new law takes away a workers’ right.

    To which I replied:

    The law does not take away “a workers’ right.’ It takes every right of every worker in their first 90 days of employment, with the exception of about 5% of employers due to size.

    which, to the best of my knowledge is true, whether you choose to dismiss it as parody or not.

    To explain further, again because you chose not to understand: currently when newly employed you have the full plethora of Workers Rights. When the law comes into force, you’ll have no workplace rights for those 90 days. Hence taking away every right of every worker (referring to workplace rights, btw, not human rights, in case that needs to be spelled out…). The 5% exception is due to the fact that 95% of empolyees are in companies with fewer than 20 employed, as far as I gather.

    To be honest, I didn’t think it was that bad a comment, and it did address two points you made fairly directly, both of which seemed fairly fundamental to your argument.

  51. Matthew Pilott 51

    First line was a bit unnecessary though, sorry.

  52. jimbo 52

    Matthew,

    The “due process” for the first 90 days of employement has changed. That is unargued.

    The “workers right” you’re arguing for is the *right* for the due process regime for the first 90 days to remain exactly as it was before the law was passed. Do I have that correct? In my view, that’s an incredibly strained view of what a “workers’ right” is.

    No one in society has the “right” for laws to remain static. I don’t have the “right” to drink up to the drink-driving limit as it existed 20 years ago. If that limit changed, it would be ridiculous to say that I’ve lost a “right”.

    To say all workers have had a “right” stripped away from them is, in my view, misleading and inflammatory.

    There is a subset of people currently working who are immediately affected by the law. Whatever % of the workforce are currently less than 90 days into their job with a small employer. ALL people not currently working are also affected in a positive way (they DO NOT have a job right now, the new law makes it more likely they will be offered one).

    Of course “everyone” is affected. That’s what happens when society changes its laws.

    Let’s look at your last paragraph again:

    “It takes every right of every worker in their first 90 days of employment, with the exception of about 5% of employers due to size.’

    You start off with the saying workers lose “every right” during their first 90 days, which is demonstrably wrong. You then switch from employees to employers because the numbers look better for your argument. The 5% of employers due to size end up employing a major chunck of the workforce, do they not? It would have been far more intellectually honest of you to give us the following: “Except for 50% of workers who are employed by companies that won’t be subject to the new law” (FAOD I have no idea whether it is 50%, but I wouldn’t be surprised).

    That’s why the argument never makes progress. It’s clouded by impassioned rhetoric rather than fair and reasoned debate.

    Labour will never repeal this law.

  53. jimbo 53

    Matthew –

    I’ve only just noticed that you genuinely believe ALL workplace rights have been lost for the first 90 days. That is a comical reading of the law and also a total misunderstanding of what is usually regarded as being part of the “plethora of workplace rights”.

    I’m pretty sure (1) health and safety laws, (2) sexual harassment, (3) your legal right to be paid, (4) overtime/hours worked restrictions, (5) right to strike, etc have not been done away with for 90 days…!

    The one “right” that has changed in the dismissal process. Don’t over-egg it.

Recent Comments

Recent Posts

  • Big Pharma has failed: the antibiotic pipeline needs to be taken under public ownership
    Claas Kirchhelle, University of Oxford; Adam Roberts, Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine, and Andrew Singer, Centre for Ecology & Hydrology Antibiotics are among the most important medicines known to humankind, but we are running out of this crucial resource. Decisive action is needed if we are to retain access to ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    2 hours ago
  • A Bloody Great Political Story (From A Parallel Universe).
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    4 hours ago
  • Climate Change: Submit!
    The Environment Committee has called for submissions on the Climate Change Response (Emissions Trading Reform) Amendment Bill. Submissions are due by Friday, 17 January 2020, and can be made online at the link above. The bill makes a number of changes to the ETS, including linking it to the carbon ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    18 hours ago
  • The Message From Messenger Park.
    Coasters Turn Out In Droves: It’s precisely the widening gulf between those with actual experience of things like guns, chainsaws and drilling machines, and those who regulate their use, that accounts for the angry crowd at Greymouth’s Messenger Park on Sunday, 17 November 2019. In the rarefied atmosphere where decisions ...
    1 day ago
  • JFK’s assassination: a bit of physics
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    SciBlogsBy Duncan Steel
    1 day ago
  • Is car washing so bad we need to ban it?
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    SciBlogsBy Marcus Wilson
    2 days ago
  • If Shane Jones isn’t corrupt, he is trying very hard to look it
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • Climate Change: We need to end fossil fuels
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • As bad as we expected
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • The Second (And Final?) Crucifixion Of Winston Peters.
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    2 days ago
  • Earth’s artificial rings
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    SciBlogsBy Duncan Steel
    2 days ago
  • Softy Jejune Parson – the new Mother Superior of Wellington
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    RedlineBy Admin
    3 days ago
  • Atlantic shakeup: US and UK leadership contenders ripping up the usual scripts?
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    exhALANtBy exhalantblog
    3 days ago
  • Winston is the PM’s problem
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • Australia’s secret prisoner
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • Bridges should put his money where his mouth is
    Stuff has more details on what New Zealand First's slush-fund has been funding, with much of the spending directly benefiting the party. Which makes it look a lot like hidden donations, rather than the completely-innocent-giant-pile-of-cash Winston is trying to portray it as. The Electoral Commission is now investigating, but Simon ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • The APEC police state enabling bill
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • Why coastal floods are becoming more frequent as seas rise
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    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    3 days ago
  • The cost of a range clearance.
    It has been revealed that firing ranges used by the NZDF while deployed to the Provincial Reconstruction Team (PRT) in Bamyan Province, Afghanistan, contained unexploded ordnance that caused numerous deaths and injuries after the NZDF withdrew the PRT in April 2013. In 2014 seven children were killed when an unidentified ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    3 days ago
  • Still denying responsibility
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • A corrupt practice
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • Democracy “A Bit Bonkers” – Thoughts Inspired By Lizzie Marvelly’s Latest Co...
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    4 days ago
  • Colombia: historic memory, massacres and the military
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    RedlineBy Admin
    4 days ago
  • On the road to Net Zero, the next step is to update our UN pledge
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    SciBlogsBy Robert McLachlan
    5 days ago
  • Corruption as usual
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Fairer rentals
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Another NZDF coverup
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • A loss for the Greens
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • New era for Ngāti Kuri and Auckland Museum
    Words and images by Jacqui Gibson Gone are Auckland Museum’s days of doing science using a museum-centric academic approach, after Māori land rights holders Ngāti Kuri gave the museum an ultimatum.
    Tom Trnski holding a fossilised whale tooth from the Far North.Aussie-born Head of Natural Sciences at Auckland Museum ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    5 days ago
  • Circling vultures: Why MediaWorks TV is really in trouble
    MediaWorks announced in October 2019 that it intended to sell off its struggling television business and cancel or cut back on several popular local programmes, including New Zealand Today, Married at First Sight New Zealand and 7 Days. Its radio and outdoor advertising arms are currently performing well, but MediaWorks’ ...
    Briefing PapersBy Peter Thompson
    5 days ago
  • Scary Opinium Poll
    Westminster voting intention:CON: 44% (+3)LAB: 28% (-1)LDEM: 14% (-1)BREX: 6% (-)via @OpiniumResearch, surveyed this weekChgs. w/ 08 Nov— Britain Elects (@britainelects) 16 November 2019 This, of course, doesn't look good.  Labour have been chucking big, headline grabbing policies left, right and centre ... Well, maybe not right.  Left, left ...
    6 days ago
  • A coward’s ploy.
    Some readers may remember that I mentioned last year that I was applying for NZ citizenship. I filled out the paperwork and had my original citizenship interview in February. Everything went well until they discovered that, because I had spent five months in the US in 2017, I had not ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    6 days ago
  • Left censorship and exclusion against gender-critical women: a Marxist critique
    by Deirdre O’Neill It is becoming quite acceptable for certain sections of the left to declare that people like me – women who are ‘gender critical’ – should not be allowed in leftist or anarchist spaces. Leaving aside the arrogance and implicit authoritarianism of this claim, its lack of critical ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    6 days ago
  • “Uncertainty” can be better solved with a better grasp of life’s inherent complexities…
    There is an article in The Conversation, written by Jeremy P. Shapiro (Adjunct Assistant Professor of Psychological Sciences, Case Western Reserve University), about what he sees as the psychologically-based underpinnings of three main matters that seem to vex people all around the planet. The article is titled “The Thinking ...
    exhALANtBy exhalantblog
    7 days ago
  • Citizens vs the Rogue Deep State
    . .   Blogger Martyn Bradbury has won his case against unreasonable search and surveillance against the NZ Police; and subsequent Police attempts to produce evidence in secrecy, in a closed Court. His case highlights a disturbing growing trend in Aotearoa New Zealand for State power to be used against ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    1 week ago
  • Massey University’s free speech policy double-plus-good
    The Committee of Disobedient Women has intercepted an email from Dr Emma Eejut, Senior Lecturer in Sociology, Massey University to the university’s Vice-Chancellor, Jan Thomas. Dear Jan, Thank you for your courageous move.  I think 10 pages of blether** should tie any of the students game enough to try holding ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Unacceptable
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • There is what corruption looks like
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Escape from Manus Island
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • When World’s Collide.
    Different Strokes: If a multicultural immigration policy imposes no obligation on immigrant communities to acknowledge and ultimately embrace their host nation’s most cherished traditions and values, then how is that nation to prevent itself from being reduced to a collection of inward-looking and self-replicating ethnic and cultural enclaves?THE COALITION GOVERNMENT’S ...
    1 week ago
  • Could There Be Method In Massey University’s Madness?
    Protective Zone: Reading the rules and guidelines released by Massey University, it is impossible to avoid the conclusion that its governing body considers the whole concept of free speech a disruptive threat to the orderly imparting of orthodox academic knowledge.IN TRUE ORWELLIAN fashion, Massey University has announced its commitment to ...
    1 week ago
  • How does poor air quality from bushfire smoke affect our health?
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    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: We need more trees, not less
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Holy bin chickens: ancient Egyptians tamed wild ibis for sacrifice
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    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    1 week ago
  • The IGIS annual report: Dead letters and secret law
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • A referendum on bigotry
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Why municipal waste-to-energy incineration is not the answer to NZ’s plastic waste crisis
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    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    1 week ago
  • Political parties and GMOs: we all need to move on
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    SciBlogsBy Grant Jacobs
    1 week ago
  • Class, Identity Politics and Transgender Ideology
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    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Irony
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • An age of protest.
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    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    1 week ago
  • Another captured agency
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • NZ First’s dodgy loans
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Member’s Day: The choice on End of Life Choice
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • How growth in population and consumption drives planetary change
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    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    1 week ago
  • The disappearing Women …
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    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 weeks ago
  • “A Passage to India”: enduring art in changing times
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    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 weeks ago
  • Contemptuous
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Zero Carbon: It’s not just a good idea, it’s the law
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    SciBlogsBy Robert McLachlan
    2 weeks ago
  • Climate Change: What happens next?
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Climate change will fuel bush fires
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    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    2 weeks ago
  • Participation rates
    A passing comment in a post the other day about the labour force participation rates of older people prompted me to pull down the fuller data and see what we could see about various participation rates over the decades since the HLFS began in 1986.   As it happens, the ...
    SciBlogsBy Michael Reddell
    2 weeks ago
  • Not So Much “OK Boomer” As “OK Ruling Class”.
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    2 weeks ago
  • Asking for it …
    "I saw a newspaper picture,From the political campaignA woman was kissing a child,Who was obviously in pain.She spills with compassion,As that young child'sFace in her hands she gripsCan you imagine all that greed and avariceComing down on that child's lips?" ...
    2 weeks ago
  • New Zealand’s Poor Pandemic Preparedness According to the Global Health Security Index
    Dr Matt Boyd, Prof Michael Baker, Prof Nick Wilson The Global Health Security Index which considers pandemic threats has just been published. Unfortunately, NZ scores approximately half marks (54/100), coming in 35th in the world rankings – far behind Australia. This poor result suggests that the NZ Government needs to ...
    SciBlogsBy Public Health Expert
    2 weeks ago
  • Climate Change: Thank Winston
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Illicit markets and Bali Booze
    The Herald reprints an Australian story on a couple of tragic deaths in Bali from drinking cocktails that had methanol in them.  The story argues that methanol is likely the result of home distillation. But what the young tourists were experiencing was far from a hangover. They’d consumed a toxic cocktail ...
    SciBlogsBy Eric Crampton
    2 weeks ago
  • This is not what armed police are for
    Last month, the police announced a trial of specialist roaming armed units, which would drive round (poor, brown) areas in armoured SUVs, armed to the teeth. When they announced the trial, they told us it was about having armed police "ready to attend major incidents at any time if needed". ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Spain’s failed electoral gamble
    Spain went to the polls today in the second elections this year, after the Socialists (who had come to power in a confidence vote, then gone to the polls in April) rejected the offer of a coalition with the left-wing PoDemos, and instead decided to gamble n a better outcome ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • The astroturf party
    National has finally rolled out its "BlueGreen" astroturf party, fronted by an array of former nats and people who were dumped by the Greens for not being Green enough. Its initial pitch is described by Stuff as "very business-friendly", and its priorities are what you'd expect: conservation, predator-free funding, a ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • How to cheat at university
    A couple of days ago I attended (and spoke at) the University of Waikato’s “LearnFest” event. There were lots of talks and sessions on very diverse aspects of teaching, mostly at tertiary level. One was by Myra Williamson from Te Piringa Faculty of Law here at Waikato, on Contract Cheating ...
    SciBlogsBy Marcus Wilson
    2 weeks ago
  • How NZ was put on world maps using a transit of Mercury
    There will be a transit of Mercury – the planet Mercury will pass across the face of the Sun – taking place at sunrise in New Zealand on Tuesday, 12th November. It was by observing such an event 250 years ago that James Cook and his scientist colleagues were able ...
    SciBlogsBy Duncan Steel
    2 weeks ago
  • Georgina Beyer: We need to be able to talk without being offended
    Since becoming the world’s first openly transexual mayor and member of parliament, Georgina Beyer has been recognised as a trailblazer for trans rights. Daphna Whitmore talks with her about where she sees the current trans movement We start out talking about legislation the government put on hold that would have ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 weeks ago
  • The anti-fluoride brigade won’t be erecting billboards about this study
    If FFNZ really put their faith in “Top Medical Journals” they would now be amending their billboards to recognise new research results. Image from FFNZ but updated to agree with the latest research. ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Chosen To Rule? What Sort Of Christian Is Chris Luxon?
    National Messiah? Chris Luxon identifies himself as an evangelical Christian. If he is genuine in this self-characterisation, then he will take every opportunity his public office provides to proselytise on behalf of his faith. He will also feel obliged to bear witness against beliefs and practices he believes to be ...
    2 weeks ago

  • Week That Was: Tackling child poverty
    It's been a great week of progress: we've celebrated Children's Day, we've made communities safer with 1800 new police, and we've seen almost 90% of eligible schools take up Government funding to scrap school donations - taking pressure off the families of more than 416,000 students. ...
    18 hours ago
  • New measures for wood processing boost
    Hon Shane Jones, Minister of Forestry The Government will further strengthen New Zealand’s wood processing sector as part of our focus on ‘value over volume’ in our forestry industry, Forestry Minister Shane Jones says. Minister Jones will today meet with forestry representatives in Northland to signal new measures to help the ...
    20 hours ago
  • New high tech traps will reduce the need for 1080 poison
    New Zealand First are celebrating the announcement of an investment of $3.5 million into five new trapping devices. These are a range of bait and trap devices, all designed to be left unattended for long periods of time. NZ First conservation spokesperson Jenny Marcroft says that this latest development will ...
    2 days ago
  • Cowboy clampers will be stymied
    Clayton Mitchell, Spokesperson for Consumer Affairs The ‘wheel clamping’ Bill that will cap clamper fees to $100 passed its third reading in Parliament today. New Zealand First welcomes The Land Transport (Wheel Clamping) Amendment Bill to combat predatory wheel clamping behaviour in what is currently a largely unregulated business. Cowboy clampers are: gouging ...
    3 days ago
  • Mental Health Commission back on track
    Jenny Marcroft, Spokesperson for Health New Zealand First welcomes the passage of the Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission Bill through its first reading in Parliament. “Today’s progress takes serious action on the mental health and addiction crisis the country is facing,” says New Zealand First Health Spokesperson Jenny Marcroft. “The re-establishment ...
    3 days ago
  • New Zealand’s key assets are not for sale: national interest test delivered
    Mark Patterson, Spokesperson for Primary Industries Today the Government announced the delivery of the promise to protect New Zealand interests by applying a new National Interest Test to the sales of our most sensitive and high risk assets to overseas buyers. This further strengthening of the Overseas Investment Act will ...
    4 days ago
  • National interest test added to protect New Zealanders’ interests
    The Coalition Government is delivering on its promise to protect New Zealanders’ interests by applying a new national interest test to the sales of our most sensitive and high-risk assets to overseas buyers. Under current Overseas Investment Act (OIA) rules, assets such as ports and airports, telecommunications infrastructure, electricity and ...
    4 days ago
  • Electoral law breach allegations
    Rt Winston Peters, Leader of New Zealand First Allegations raised this morning by Stuff Limited / Fairfax concern a party matter but I am confident that New Zealand First has operated within electoral laws, now and for the last 27 years. Declarable donations were declared to the Electoral Commission. Our ...
    4 days ago
  • Wayne Brown hits back at critics: Ports of Auckland has to move
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