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Open mike 01/04/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, April 1st, 2019 - 213 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

213 comments on “Open mike 01/04/2019 ”

  1. China debates age of criminal responsibility – NZ Herald


    … ” Pi said he believed one reason for such violent behaviour among the young was that China’s education system focused too much on hate instead of love.

    “We do not have education about love. We believe this is something from and of the West. Instead, we have plenty of violent heroes in textbooks for students to learn from”…

    Norman Greenbaum – Spirit In The Sky – YouTube

  2. Tai Chi , … codified sword moves. They are EXACTLY the same as the guard and strike positions I taught using the European long sword and single sword techniques. Langswert in German. Just slowed down for muscular tensions.

    Tai Chi Chuan stile Yang: la forma 10 – YouTube

    • WeTheBleeple 2.1

      Did Tai Chi for a few months, all slow motion type training. Thought it was ridiculous.

      Months later someone tried to blindside me with a roundhouse kick I dropped them without even thinking, before my thoughts had even registered the attack they were on the ground. Previously matched opponents can barely touch me.

      I imagine true mastery of such an art would be hilarious where bullies wear themselves out punching air. Amazing discipline.

      • WILD KATIPO 2.1.1

        It is , actually… now… not many people would realize this , but the European Waltz was designed for Cavalry soldiers,- moreso Officers.

        That One , two , three, one , two three step motion is the codified form of the saber footwork…. it is identical, and was in fact designed for that purpose.

        It achieved the same thing, fitness, agility and dexterity … it is ALL in the footwork. The Maoris did the same in incorporating the movement’s of animals.

        Its called ‘ bio-mechanics’ in the game.

        • WeTheBleeple

          Thanks WK that was enlightening.

          It’s amazing how muscle memory kicks in when it’s needed. The waltz aye, who’d have thought.

          • WILD KATIPO

            Yeah mate ,… here’s a site I fed off for years, … they talk about over 60 manuals written by the Europeans ,… I have the one by Talhoffer and a few others. They don’t play act , … they have many PHD’s in metallurgy , history and academics with a practical application. They don’t mess around.

            ARMA Director bio – Association for Renaissance Martial Arts

            • WILD KATIPO

              The bastard sword, the long sword or hand and a half sword ( all the same thing ) was reputedly the weapon that claimed more lives than any other sword type up to and including in the age of early gun powder.

              Simply because of its great versatility. It was a military sword,… the rapier was a civilian dueling sword. The English despised the rapier.It wasn’t until very , very late into the Renaissance that it was finally phased out. It was then that the Calvary saber took its place in the age of the musket.

            • SHG

              The movie industry has taught us that martial arts are things that only exist in Asian cultures. As if people weren’t trying to kill each other for thousands of years in the West.

          • McFlock

            Briefly did ballrom dancing evening classes – one step I was particularly good at was the chassé where the step to the side is followed by a cross behind with the trailing foot then another step to the side.

            Exactly the same movement as a side kick with an extra deep backstep to close the gap more quickly from a distance.

            • greywarshark

              I was looking at the tango danced lovingly and lots of fancy footwork there.
              Miles away from the folk dancing, the veleta etc that we learned at school. Watching the tango moves, and I thought just as well.

              • McFlock

                Ah, the dance of luuurrrrvvee.

                Sadly, I’m more of a Fester. 🙁

                • greywarshark

                  That was really something – I don’t know how to describe it! I loved the cliche champagne corks popping and frothing. Very cleverly stage effects.

                  • McFlock

                    I totally recommend anything with Raul Julia in it. He’s been in some crap movies, but as far as I’ve gotten with his ouvre it seems that the bigger the turd, the more brightly he shines like a diamond.

                    He’s blinding in Streetfighter 🙂

        • Macro

          Dance has (and still is) used for a number of reasons by the military. Fitness and agility is important. The Scottish regiments still use dance today. Scottish country dance not only requires fitness it also promotes teamwork as 8 or 10 dances work together to provide a pattern and formations, much like a rugby team train together on a movement where team work and timing is important.
          One of the most famous (within Scottish circles) is The Reel of the 51st Division. The dance was written by Lieutenant J.E.M. ‘Jimmy’ Atkinson of the 7th Battalion The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders while in a POW camp during the Second World War. Captured together with the vast majority of the British 51st (Highland) Division during the Battle of Dunkirk in 1940, Atkinson spent the rest of the war as a POW in Germany. His idea of a reel with a Saint Andrew′s Cross in its key formation was intended to symbolise Scotland and the Highland Division, in adversity.

          Atkinson’s letter home with instructions for the dance was intercepted by the German security service, the Abwehr, who spent the rest of the war trying to break the code. However, another version of the dance reached Scotland where it was published while Atkinson was still a POW and became instantly popular.

          It is often danced in a set composed entirely of men.

          • greywarshark

            Fascinating – I guess that the Scots love of fitness, action and dancing, inter-relationships with bands and pipes, and vitality for their country shown in battles for Scottish sovereignty – all go together to produce the Tattoos which are remarkable.

            Incidentally thinking about POWs I have just read a remarkable book called The Man who broke into Auschwitz and the title is just part of a gripping and poignant true story by Denis Avey.

            • greywarshark

              I was thinking of the story I read about the the Cretans Natural Born Heroes and their fitness and sureness of foot on their stony island and looked up their dances.

              Like this Greek one – version of Zorba.

              Other countries without so much uptightness as it seems NZs, westerners have, know how to have a good community event.
              Zorba and the other dances are complicated. I was shown how to do it when i shipped to UK on the Fairstar or Fairsky in the 70’s. We could still travel that way if we
              didn’t have planes you know. It was enjoyable, took a month?

              Usually, breaking plates in praise of a musician or dancer is considered a part of kefi, the irrepressible expression of emotion and joy.Mar 17, 2019,

              Let’s have more kefi with or without plates.

            • Macro

              One of the reasons I enjoy Scottish country dancing is because it is open to many different interpretations. People with a mathematical bend take to it instantly for this reason because it is full of interesting and repeating patterns. Prof of mathematics at VUW Rob Downey, (the most recent recipient of the Rutherford Medal) for instance is one such, and has devised a number of dances as you can see here:
              He is not the only mathematician to do so.
              Hugh Foss was another:
              Hugh Rose Foss (13 May 1902 – 23 December 1971) was a British cryptanalyst. At Bletchley Park during World War II he made significant contributions both to the breaking of the German Enigma code and headed the section tasked with breaking Japanese Naval codes.
              Many of Hugh Foss’s dances are amongst the most popular of dances in SCD.
              John Drewry who devised over 800 dances was a biochemist at Edinburgh University.
              There are literally thousands of dances now in the repertoire. but learning and dancing new dances is not as daunting as it may sound. Each dance will employ a set of different figures, repeated in a certain order to create the new dance. It then becomes a simple matter of remembering the order and going with the flow.

          • Incognito

            Dance has (and still is) used for a number of reasons by the military. Fitness and agility is important.

            Feast your eyes on this: Russian soldiers dancing to music by Boney M.

      • mac1 2.1.2

        Did some Morris dancing on a marae one Waitangi Day, and the taiaha warriors saw a strong relationship with stick dancing and the taiaha. In olde England when the peasantry were forbade swords by the ruling classes, the English stave was used instead as a weapon and Morris stick dancing uses some of the strikes and blocks from that form.

    • marty mars 2.2

      Good this person is being sorted. A weak man followed by even weaker people. Some on this site have talked about crisis actors – I hope they stfu now and hold their tiny heads in shame.

      “In a video released Friday, Jones acknowledged in a sworn deposition stemming from a lawsuit filed by the families of Sandy Hook victims that the school shooting was in fact real. Jones blamed the “trauma of the media and the corporations lying so much” for triggering his extreme distrust in news and information.”


      • mauī 2.2.1

        Jones probably wouldn’t have a platform if the media did it’s job and reported facts.

        Instead all we get is Trump impeachment fairy tales and Russian conspiracy theories.

      • greywarshark 2.2.2

        I was reading about swords and Tai Chi on 2. Then at 2.2 marty mars you come in with something else. Why isn’t it in a new number? It’s hard enough to follow Wild Katipos numerous comments without additions to the thread.

        • marty mars

          I thought I’d started a new one sorry.

          Personally I love swords and have trained with the katana for years. Tai chi is good too – didn’t mean to push into that cool stuff. Sorry wk.

          • WILD KATIPO

            Dang it,… now I gotta apologize. I’m sorry old chap. I did Iaido and Kendo. I hated Katanas,.. they felt like blade heavy meat cleavers that committed your body to overreaching swings with no ‘ live ‘ feel to the blade. The longsword by comparison was like a whip in its return to guard.

            I was mentally geared more for Kenjutsu.

            I had many interesting discussions with the Sensei’s down there in Hamilton.

            I taught them what the ‘ tail’ guard was used for. But Kendo was the codified , sports version to preserve the killing arts of Kenjutsu. I was interested in straight combat to retrace my European heritage, and I drew on all sources, including Jujitsu in regards to Kampfringen,… all of them recognized many of the same techniques as I found in the European arts… they were roughly compatible.

            • marty mars

              My training was ju jitsu – not gracie – old school + judo based but lots of ground work and dirty stuff.

              I prefer to train with bokken rather than katana really – if good enough for musashi and sticks easier to find when needed rather than a sword.

              • Whoa- now Miyamoto Musashi and the book of five rings,… that IS a study in the sword !!!

                He was legendary… hair disheveled, comes out scruffy and half asleep, beats an experienced swordsman using a Katana with little more than a stick on that island !

                And in the end ,.. after so many years and so many kills, tells society’s expectations of him to shove it… matures and seeks a more peaceful and humane life and sees the futility of endless warfare.

                No wonder hes a sword ‘saint’ in Japan.

                • Stuart Munro.

                  I had a Japanese mate who told me that duel highlighted Musashi’s favoured technique of pissing off his opponent so that he’d make mistakes.

                  Sasaki Kojiro was noted for using a longer than usual sword. So Musashi whittled an even longer one out of an old oar – this both satirized Kojiro and robbed him of the reach advantage he’d begun to depend on.

                  • marty mars

                    Cool. I’m about to reread Eiji Yoshikawa’s Musashi again. So much info in there plus a rollicking good read – English translation though.

                    • Stuart Munro.

                      Yeah I really enjoyed it – it makes a real difference when someone with great writing skills has an equally great story to tell.

              • McFlock

                Me brother and I occasionally duel with bokken if he’s in town. He’s much better than me, still doing the manlyman stuff and all, but every so often he’s the one who calls time out to suck his fingers after a good whack lol

                • marty mars

                  Yep lol I sorta want to do more jo and taiaha – double ended pretty hard to stop in proficient hands. Thinking of making my own and teaching the boy to train with me. Good fun.

                  • greywarshark

                    Sometime one day might be good to set up a taiaha retreat in Golden Bay for all the martial arts people here. Of course you would invite the police to join in and that would prevent them from inflating everything with bad intent.

                    It would be interesting if new and better attitudes to law and order with police could come about iff they built relationships with the public; for ages they have kept themselves separate and been afraid of being compromised if there were problems amongst people they knew. But I think a new model of fraternisation could be developed.

                  • McFlock

                    One of the things that struck me as a general spectator to all three is how bayonet drill is an evolution of quarterstaff technique, which has many similarities to taiaha technique (only so many ways of efficiently bopping someone on the nut, I guess 🙂 ).

                    • SHG

                      I wonder if the British army absorbed any lessons from going head-to-head against taiaha. It’d be fascinating if some of those bayonet drills were influenced by the New Zealand Wars.

                    • McFlock

                      More firearms and entrenched positions that taught them a lesson 😉

                    • SHG

                      No doubt. I once read an interesting article that posited European trench warfare was invented at Ruapekapeka.

                    • McFlock

                      ISTR Belich was big on that argument, but I’m not really sure it holds up. Firstly it was a fixed emplacement rather than a broad barrier. Secondly Wellington had done similar efforts in the Peninsula campaign thirty years before, and it’s what really stopped the French from taking Portugal, and it was done by the most famous British general, so well known in Europe. And it was an adaptation of previous military events anyway.

                      But then as an incrementalist I’m possibly more primed to see evolutionary progression than maybe identifying revolutionary change 🙂

        • WILD KATIPO

          L0L… The reason I like to mix it up is because while local politics is important and that of those overseas also,… is to provide colour and something a little thought provoking,… else it just becomes a very morose and off putting exercise for those who are not particularity inclined towards dry narrow perspectives.

          There is a whole big world out there, and its too easily to become egocentric or introspective , or too partisan or too tribal. Its good to think outside just what the newsmedia spouts with its set narratives and agendas , … such as the world of nature, the world of mystery , history and the origins of political movements… otherwise you will end up dried, staid and dull, – and dead before your time… mere parrots of the very news media you claim to despise.

          Curiously , somehow,.. these ‘natural and historical things’ finally become political … but only after people come out of their shells and start to consider them… this world is way bigger than just our perceptions, bigger than what this generations politicians think…far , far more than that.

          Perhaps this is why it seems’ hard to follow’.

          It is not always about what Jacinda Adern or Winston Peters or John Key are up to or what they think,… the world doesn’t revolve around them.

          Thank goodness.

    • ianmac 2.3

      Thanks for the Tai Chi Wild One. My 80 year old sister swears by it. Perhaps tomorrow…

      • greywarshark 2.3.1

        Tai Chis is great. I have started a few times and dropped it, have book and want to practise the moves so they become involuntary. Good for suppleness, flexibility, blood circulation, quieting the mind (would be useful for some), and brings a short serenity which may last through the everyday hurly-burly.

        It’s based on the moves used by fighters, but adapted for general public suitability. Has some poetic names, one stance is stroking the peacock’s tail. It’s a bit more mind enhancing and less demanding on the body than gym action and in a group situation it is pleasant to be doing something that is like a slow dance with the group, part of a social interaction with people in balance.

        • WILD KATIPO

          I would say go for it. The Japanese martial art I loved most was Aikido,… but the most functional and easy to train was Japanese jujustu,… for combat purposes only.

          But either Aikido or Tai Chi,… would be gentle and great for more fitness, toning and gentle suppleness or meditative purposes… relaxation is the motivation , -without the bone crushing , rip shit and bust of Jujutsu. Jujutsu is a ‘ hard’ art… only designed for combat.

  3. reason 3

    “the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, has pointed out that India has the world’s third largest Muslim population after Indonesia and Pakistan – upward of 180 million people”. ….. “In fact, by the end of 2016, only 23 men from India had left to fight for Isis in the Arab world,” …..

    This is a rate of roughly 1 extreme extremist per 7 million eight hundred thousand Indian Muslim community members…. https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/03/05/israel-is-playing-a-big-role-in-indias-escalating-conflict-with-pakistan/

    Was this written in our white supremacist manifesto before he committed his terrorist attack against Christchruchs Muslims …”explain why we ought to tolerate sharia law.” ???

    Would NZ s mass murderer have agreed with the sentiment ” Rabid rottweilers of racism here – who see racism wherever they look – will relish an opportunity to explain why the Islamic race is better than the Christian race. ”

    I’m quoting a poster here at the standard ( dennis Frank) , …. but he’s not alone,……. I have argued with another poster who believes / pretends that the majority of Muslims are hard line extremists …. and they are incompatible with our modern society ….

    Two posters espousing some of The sentiments , the beliefs … and putrid justifications….. of our racist white supremacist before he went on the rampage … incorrect fascist opinion dressed up as facts ….the talking points of a terrorist mass murderer.

    The Statistics at the beginning of this post …. show up the negative stereotype lies ……. pushed by the dennis franks / wayne mapps and other anti Muslim scaremongers ..such as the National party … and our media.

    I think spreading this message …. along with the stories of other Muslim kiwis targeted and harmed in Our terror attack.

    Is the best antidote to the fear-mongering speech and harmful stereotypes … that some angry NZers cling to and spread.

    Spread this message

  4. reason 4

    Another good woman …… Rashida H. Tlaib …. speaking of …. Christchurch and a controversy involving two faced Chelsea Clinton … and Ilhan Omar .

  5. marty mars 5

    3 out of 10 generous imo

    “Oranga Tamariki chief executive Grainne Moss has rated her organisation seven to eight out of 10, despite 220 children being harmed in its care over six months in 2018…

    … However Dame Tariana Turia, the former Minister for Whānau Ora, strongly disagrees, saying “the number of children being abused in care doesn’t warrant a seven” and rating them three out of 10.”


  6. esoteric pineapples 6

    I was watching a very good interview with Democrat presidential hopeful Andrew Yang who is promoting a universal basic income and thought this will never happen in New Zealand because we have a mentality as a nation that anyone who gets money from the government without working for it is a bludger.

    • RedLogix 6.1

      Careful with that idea. TOP are the only party who have seriously promoted a UBI, and taken one to an election as key policy, and all the tribals here hated them for it.

      • KJT 6.1.1

        Really. We had a whole strand on UBI a while back.
        Myself, Weka and others wrote about it.

        The only kickback of note was from some, not all, of the usual right wing suspects.

        There was some justified comment about the costs and whether it was the best way of reducing poverty and increasing fairness.

        As well as the gap between the initial cost and the benefits coming later.

        On the whole the discussions were constructive.

        By the way, Red, you are Tribal, in your own way. Especially since you joined the biege brigade.

        • RedLogix

          Only one party has attempted to test a UBI as core policy in an election.

          And for all the fine words said about it, I think only me and maybe a couple of others, were willing to back them for it.

          • KJT

            Discussing a UBI , was Green policy going into the last election.

            Many are still not convinced it is the best way to go.

            Which is fine. There are pros and cons.

            • RedLogix

              I specifically asked Russel Norman in person about the Greens UBI; I didn’t catch his answer due to him backing out the door so fast.

              Or possibly my hearing isn’t what it used to be 🙂

              • Dennis Frank

                It’s what suit-wearing leftist politicians do: he was just conforming to the prescription. I checked the GP website: https://www.greens.org.nz/sites/default/files/economic_20140811_1.pdf

                When I was in the Greens economic policy working group led by Jeanette Fitzsimons, we attended a conference on UBI featuring its leading academic advocate at the time: Keith Rankin. Think that was ’92. Our group adopted it but I don’t recall if the GP formally did likewise due to being embroiled in the Alliance subsequently.

                However it appears to have survived in the form of principle #8 in the current GP economic policy: “Equity and Compassion: Basic material security and sufficient income for all, and a fair distribution of the economy’s benefits and burdens, will lead to better outcomes for all members of our society, including gender and pay equity.”

                So much for principle, what about practice? See 4.9 – “The Green Party will: … Explore the introduction of a guaranteed minimum income for all people.” Establish a feasibility study, that means. It’s what leftists do when they want to appear to be supporting something without declaring intent to actually do that thing. To differentiate themselves from Labour on this point, they are explicitly not declaring their intent to use focus groups.

                So yeah, ho hum. The usual methodology for manufacturing consent. Weasel words? Technically, yes, but unkind to dismiss the policy on that basis. The Greens are good people who mean well. Evasive policy can be framed as prudent and shrewd. Non-committal stances allow freedom of movement in response to changing times…

                • KJT

                  Or, maybe as is really the case, we want the space to research, discuss, options, and find out if a UBI, is going to work as intended.

                  It is called thinking about things before you do them. Including considering unintended consequences.

                  I support a UBI, but there are other options which may help people sooner. And can be gotten past other parties, and the bad faith, roadblock.

                  I reckon a full UBI, may well be introduced by a right wing party. When it finally penetrates their self interested brains, that people with no money, cannot buy anything.

                  • Dennis Frank

                    Yep, that’s a very good point. Recent years has seen substantial support emerging from rightists. Some commentary I’ve seen goes into differences that have emerged in respect of implementation of the concept. That does indeed give the Greens a sensible basis for caution.

                    My suggestion would be to use a preliminary conference to discuss the pros & cons of the most well-formulated designs that are available at the time, then have parliament discuss the options. If competing schools of thought become evident, either another conference or perhaps an advisory group established to clarify problems and refine design of the system before reporting back to parliament?

                    • RedLogix

                      Exactly. A UBI was only ever going to survive in a form that both the left and the right could tolerate.

          • McFlock

            No idea if I’ve ever voted based on a single policy.

            I’d be interested to see what happens if Morgan gives them another couple of mill but keeps his mug out of it. He was too much of a jerk to actually be electable.

            But if they were well-funded and issued reports in the style of a think tank to prepare the ground and had some passionate but openminded candidates, it might be more successful.

            • bwaghorn

              There was an article somewhere yesterday saying hes pulled all funding and cut ties.

              • McFlock

                What a dick. He can’t figure out that the biggest thing holding TOP down was him.

          • bwaghorn

            I voted for them and got a very grumpy response here . The left lost me with their wedging against rural nz.

            • marty mars

              The left will save everyone including farmers.

            • KJT

              Federated farmers will still be complaining about the left, on the day we rescue them from their flooded or dust bowled farms and put them in state housing.
              Fortunately, not all farmers are that stupid.

              As we carry another load of hay, for draught relief.

    • cleangreen 6.2

      Yang enterprises was the family that rigged the 2000 Florida election. http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/florida_election_stolen.html

      • Andre 6.2.1

        Are you asserting that Andrew Yang is connected to Yang Enterprises? Or just throwing out a random factoid hoping readers make that associative smear themselves?

        I’ve had a pretty good search, and found zero connection. Wikipedia claims Andrew Yang’s parents were from Taiwan, while the owners of Yang Enterprises (Li-Woan and Tyng-Lin Wang) are described as Chinese-American.

        • reason

          Andre …. One would hope your conclusion is not as wrong as your argument….. because your rebuttal is based on ignorance.

          Throwing out fact-turds like that …. you could work for the Legatum stink tank threw out there. ….

          The Taiwan Govt declares itself ….. the official name of “the Republic of China (ROC) ”

          “Since the ROC lost its United Nations seat as “China” in 1971 (replaced by the PRC), most sovereign states have switched their diplomatic recognition to the PRC, recognizing the PRC as the representative of all China,” …..

          ” As of 21 August 2018, the ROC maintains official diplomatic relations with 16 UN member states and the Holy See, ”

          ” with the election of the Kuomintang (KMT, “Chinese Nationalist Party”) back into executive power in 2008, the ROC government has reverted to the position that “mainland China is also part of the territory of the ROC.”

          • Andre

            What does the ridiculous posturing the governments of Taiwan (RoC) and China (PRoC) perform to each other have to do with the question of whether Andrew Yang (US presidential candidate) has any connection to Yang Enterprises (allegedly dodgy US software company)?

            cleangreen has apparently invited readers to make that connection by responding to a post about Andrew Yang with mutterings and a link about “the family that rigged the 2000 Florida election.”

            I asked cleangreen to clarify that connection (or lack thereof). reason, you too are also welcome to clarify that connection.

            • reason

              Sorry Andre …. that you seem to thick to realize that the people of Taiwan are in the majority Chinese …. and call themselves Chinese.

              So your claim “I’ve had a pretty good search, and found zero connection.” is undermined by your bullshit ‘ evidence’ …” Wikipedia claims Andrew Yang’s parents were from Taiwan, while the owners of Yang Enterprises (Li-Woan and Tyng-Lin Wang) are described as Chinese-American.”

              I’m not interested in Yang enterprises …. unless there’s a Legatum link …. or money laundering in NZ links / dodgy NZ trusts / NZ shell company’s etc

              your the expert … do tell 😉

  7. marty mars 7

    Not good enough.

    “Ngāi Tahu is asking why it wasn’t informed or involved when a giant leatherback turtle washed up in its rohe.

    The body of a 2.5 metre turtle was found on a farm near Akaroa on Banks Peninsula last week and sent by Department of Conservation rangers to the national museum Te Papa Tongarewa in Wellington.”

    Matiu Payne from Lincoln University’s Te Whare Pūtahi says Ngāi Tahu consider the honu a kaitiaki.


  8. francesca 8

    Every year a draft resolution is presented to the UN.General Assembly.
    Broadly condemning the glorification of Nazism.

    “Combating glorification of Nazism, Neo-Nazism and other practices that contribute to fuelling contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance”.

    Every year the US and Ukraine, sometimes Canada, sometimes some poor Pacific country hoping for favours, votes no. The vast majority (130countries ) votes yes,sadly NZ is not one of them .We join the EU in abstaining
    One year I wrote to Murray McCully, and asked him to explain our stance
    He replied that there was wording related to freedom of expression,and rights of peaceful assembly that were of concern .Pretty much word for word the US stance, which adds that as it is a Russian resolution, it is therefore invalid as it has been put forward for political reasons
    Each year the resolution is amended and circulated , in the hope of consensus, and each year the vote stays pretty much the same
    After the events in CHCh, is it time for NZ to vote in favour of this resolution?


    • No, it isn’t. As when he oversaw NZ’s sponsorhip of a Security Council resolution against Israel, McCully is correct: freedom of expression is important and Russia is one of the countries looking for ways to diminish it at the UN. The fact that no-one likes Nazis shouldn’t influence our decision-making on freedom of expression.

      • francesca 8.1.1

        Note that the resolution specifies the glorification of Nazism
        As Nazism’s extreme nationalism advocated the extermination of an entire race/religion, I venture that Nazi speech doesn’t warrant protection
        Happily, the vast majority of UN countries agree, just not the most powerful

        • Psycho Milt

          Note that the resolution specifies the glorification of Nazism

          And then leaves it up to local authoritarians to define “glorification,” which is exactly the problem with resolutions in conflict with freedom of expression.

          As Nazism’s extreme nationalism advocated the extermination of an entire race/religion, I venture that Nazi speech doesn’t warrant protection

          Advocating the extermination of an entire race/religion doesn’t warrant protection and is already not protected, so no change is needed there. That just leaves undefined “Nazi speech,” and the devil is, as usual, in the definitions.

      • francesca 8.1.2

        Can’t help feeling NZ’s sponsorship of the SC resolution was a favour to the departing Obama, who relished the opportunity to sock it to Netenyahu.The only time the US abstained on this issue.
        And NZ quickly backed down

        New Zealand folds and apologises to Israel

      • greywarshark 8.1.3

        Try mentioning Jew, Israel or Zionism and see how free you are to express anything? No response? Wait for it.

        • KJT

          I will bite.
          Not fair to put the three together.

          Plenty of ethnic Jews disagree with, the current direction taken by the Israeli Government.

          • greywarshark

            But from the trio above, there are watchers ready to dispute any mention that relates to their particular sensitivity, ready to ambush commenters no matter how mild or factual related.

    • greywarshark 8.2

      The forked tongue of deceiving politicians and the powerful. Using the word ‘political’ as a negative, so implying that it is somehow unacceptable to normal discourse and concern. That is saying that our governments, the organisation of our lives isn’t our concern?!! What is the next word that they will plaster with doggie do? All very Orwellian*.

      John Key criticised a matter raised before one of his elections as ‘political’ and implied therefore he shouldn’t have to respond to the matter. Bloody amazing. And even more amazing that we allow these greasy, wily types to carry on with this subterfuge.

      * Newspeak – Wikipedia
      Newspeak is the language of Oceania, a fictional totalitarian state and the setting of the novel Nineteen Eighty-Four (1949), by George Orwell. … The long-term political purpose of the new language is for every member of the … among the parts of speech; (ii) the inflectional regularity in the construction and usages of words.

      “Power is in tearing human minds to pieces and putting them together again in new shapes of your own choosing.”
      “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.”
      “Big Brother is Watching You.”

      • WeTheBleeple 8.2.1

        I did some work for a company Oceania. Great bunch supplying sound rigs to the rock and roll industry.

        I’m amazed I didn’t pick up the reference from Orwell. Was probably too busy loving the rock and roll job.

        We had a certain way of speaking… 😀

      • greywarshark 8.2.2

        Sorry I got carried away and didn’t put the source for my comment – you might wonder who said something was political? I am referring to the quote in Fransesca’s comment at 8.

        He [Murray McCully] replied that there was wording related to freedom of expression,and rights of peaceful assembly that were of concern .Pretty much word for word the US stance, which adds that as it is a Russian resolution, it is therefore invalid as it has been put forward for political reasons

        And WtB
        I wrote about Nautilus at 14/15 and oil rigs, and you are reminded of Oceania and sound rigs – interesting contrast.
        I like the quote from Lewis Carroll’s Alice books.
        QUOTATION: “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
        “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
        “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”


        And someone suggesting that RedLogix might better be called WhiteLogix.
        That makes me think of the Red Queen who liked to believe six impossible things before breakfast.
        “Alice laughed: “There’s no use trying,” she said; “one can’t believe impossible things.” “I daresay you haven’t had much practice,” said the Queen. “When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.”

        Also relevant to today’s reasoning and practice:

        What I tell you three times is true.
        The Hunting of the Snark.

        “Then you should say what you mean,” the March Hare went on.
        “I do, ” Alice hastily replied; “at least I mean what I say, that’s the same thing, you know.”
        “Not the same thing a bit!” said the Hatter. “Why, you might just as well say that “I see what I eat” is the same thing as “I eat what I see!”
        Alice in Wonderland.

        “For a complete logical argument”, Arthur began with admirable solemnity, “we need two prim Misses –”
        “Of course!” she interrupted. “I remember that word now. And they produce –”
        “A Delusion,” said Arthur.
        “Ye-es?” she said dubiously. “I don’t seem to remember that so well. But what is the whole argument called?”
        “A Sillygism.”
        Sylvie and Bruno.

        Reading Carroll’s inventive prose, I wonder if it would be a good idea to think of a different and faster way than now of making good decisions for state and local action following the six impossible things each day before breakfast approach.

        There would be a meeting of the Initiatives Group later to present them, then put them all on file, after choosing a likely few to be explored further. This by a small clique with an interest and expertise in the subject to see if they could be implemented, who they would benefit, what good they would provide to the whole community now and going forward, and what cost and whether they might save money and time in the long run. Present report to Pilot Action Group for discussion with likely receipt groups at appropriate locations for choice, which location acceptance, implementation and timeline.

  9. Sanctuary 9

    I see RNZ Morning Report has been agog today with the possibility of new laws around hate speech.

    For my two bobs worth, I utterly oppose hate speech laws. Why?

    1/ Unless they are so tightly specific (as in the German anti-Nazi laws) as to be virtually useless in any practical sense they just become a circus for endless knee-jerk culture war clickbait, SJWs will endlessly report Mike Hosking and ZB, RWNJs will endlessly report anyone calling them RWNJs. The MSM will breathlessly report any and all of the professionally outraged Twitterati and they’ll then gleefully report on any moral panic/witch hunts/shit fights that play out as well.

    2/ The UK indicates the police become the arbiters of acceptable speech. People will get prosecuted for teaching their dog to do a Nazi salute on Youtube, or making insulting jokes on social media about the Maori language if enough Kaumatua get a trembling lower lip and a tear in the eye over it.

    3/ Hate speech laws are a distraction. Words only have agency bveyond the mere hurtful if the speaker some sort of constituency. A crazy dude ranting on the corner about Jewish banking conspiracies is just a crazy dude on the corner, unless he has a constituency of like minded people – and then the issue isn’t what he is saying, but rather why so many people believe it.

    • NZ already bans “hate speech” based on ethnicity or national origin, via the Human Rights Act, section 61 (yet another piece of legislation that’s in conflict with the Bill of Rights Act – oh, for a written constitution…). Fortunately, NZ cops haven’t yet taken up the invitation to become arbiters of acceptable speech, but the invitation is there.

      If the government’s looking to put our legislation even further in conflict with the BoRA’s guarantee of freedom of expression, it’s presumably intended to apply to religious beliefs rather than ethnicity. That must be fought tooth and nail by anyone who gives a shit about freedom of religion.

      • RedLogix 9.1.1


        ‘Sky fairies’ would be hate speech too 🙂

        • Sabine

          i think bearded sky fairy sounds better then a bloodlusing male deity that advocates for slavery and loves himself a good stoning. See?

    • RedLogix 9.2

      Well expressed.

      Freedom of speech without fear of punishment is important because it is how people resolve differences of opinion in a civilised society.

      It may not always be pretty, we may not always like it … but all other alternatives are worse.

      • greywarshark 9.2.1

        Freedom of speech – what is it? Unbounded freedom of speech becomes a tool of harassment. Someone with an obsession about people like you calling out at you, even confronting you silently wherever you go, that’s a way around being called on ‘speech’.

        And a civilised society – what is it? One with clean streets and neat frontages.
        A Truman society where people are really interested in one another – being freely exploited on television?

        Oh so sweet and theoretical. I do hope we will all reach that fairyland of peace, love and harmony (harmoney too), soon – on TS for a start.

        • RedLogix

          Oh so sweet and theoretical. I do hope we will all reach that fairyland of peace, love and harmony

          You misunderstand me; freedom of expression isn’t about peace, love and harmony. When people have serious and deeply held differences of opinion the resulting dialog is going to be long, heated and ugly to watch.

          It’s still better than the alternatives.

          • greywarshark

            That is partly my point that you make RL in analysing the process of freedom of expression – it can be very hurtful and long. I don’t want to wait for ages to go through mediation, the Courts, requiring defensive measures if I am being harassed by someone. And when there are so many people with early dementia about, they can’t be reasoned with and shouldn’t be enabled to continue errant behaviour beyond a reasonable and occasional level. Toleration should not be one-sided.

            I don’t agree that it is either/or – that the alternatives can’t be better. Balance that’s what we need, more fairness and less rights bandwagons filled with bottles of snake oil.

  10. marty mars 10

    This is the way we bind people together – proud of you dunner people.

    They came in their thousands to learn more about their Islamic neighbours during an open day at Dunedin’s mosque yesterday.

    For many, it was their first time visiting a mosque. They were treated to warm Islamic hospitality, including traditional foods and information on the tenets of the faith.”


    • RedLogix 10.1


      That is how you transform the human heart; with love.

      Also Matthew 5:44

      • Sabine 10.1.1

        i would venture a guess that love would not have changed anything for the man who killed people who had their backs turned him, who were on their knees for prayer.

        But yeah, it might enlighten a few who ate up the ‘all muslims are evil’ trope fed to them since 9/11 and continuously then.

      • marty mars 10.1.2

        Yeah I’m pleased jesus was a person of colour. The quotes and sayings attributed to him and about him often have some wisdom.

        • KJT

          How to upset a fundamentalist white Christian.

          Remind him Jesus, was a dark skinned, Jew!


          • greywarshark

            Quietly smiled at good Methodist minister who did not want yoga classes being held in church hall – ‘It can’t be considered – it is an Eastern mystical tradition’ – or words very similar

        • Poission

          He would have looked like a roman till he lifted his toga,

          In Petronius’ Satiricon, it is stated that Jews and Nabateans (from today’s Jordan) have the same skin color as Romans; to pass for one of them all one needs is circumcision and ears piercing. But for a Roman to pass for a Gaul or an Aethiopian, it would require a white or black mask, respectively.

          Nassim Taleb

          • marty mars

            Hmmm took a while for Italians to be considered white.

            “I understood this to be true after finishing historian David R. Roediger’s Working Toward Whiteness, a book about how new immigrants became white. Between 1886 and 1925, 13 million new immigrants came from southern, eastern and central Europe. Up until that point, people considered white generally hailed from England, the Netherlands, Ireland, Germany and Scandinavian countries. Roediger, a professor at University of Illinois, argues that new immigrants, until they were fully brought into the white family, lived in a state of in-betweeness, meaning they were placed in a racial pecking order below whites but above people of color.”

          • Psycho Milt

            There were huge migrations and turnover of peoples following the collapse of the Roman empire, with quite a lot of the movement south and south-west from central and northern Europe. Italy in Roman times wouldn’t have had many White people in it who weren’t slaves.

  11. marty mars 11

    Good stuff – more progress – yay

    “Iwi are pleased that Government has decided to work in partnership with us to develop a plan to implement the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples,” said National Iwi Chairs spokesperson Professor Margaret Mutu.

    “In addition to building and strengthening relations between the Crown and Rangatira, a national plan of action will improve outcomes for our whānau and all New Zealanders. We have wanted this to happen since government gave its support for the Declaration in 2010 and we acknowledge the leadership provided by Minister Mahuta to make it a reality.”


    • WeTheBleeple 11.1

      Pita Sharples worked hard to get JK on board with this. JK approved with the proviso the declaration could not override local law (or to that effect).

      I think the issue now is giving the document (UNDRIP) some weight?

      Margaret is good people, a diplomat who brooks no nonsense. Be interesting how this pans out.

      Labour was concerned it added complexity to treaty issues, probably went in the too hard basket without that much thought. But Labour has better leadership now.

      Nanaia, Margaret, Kelvin, Jacinda’s support…


      • marty mars 11.1.1

        Yep + 1

        Wrote a poem about pita once and te papa

        the floor was polished
        and clacked
        with footfall and they lay
        quietly disemboweled,
        and were viewed.
        a card explained: revered once, then dis
        repair, now look
        their mauri is strong. so they
        say breezelessly.

        A whare tūpuna
        will say what to that?

        Pita Sharple’s taiaha watches
        through glass.

        They are alone at night.

        • greywarshark

          That’s a haunting mindpiece mm.

          • marty mars

            I had a visceral reaction to seeing some things in there. It hurt.

            I wrote another one about it which I may share one day.

          • WeTheBleeple

            Agreed. Good poem.

            A local favorite:

            James K Baxter – The Maori Jesus

            I saw the Maori Jesus
            Walking on Wellington Harbour.
            He wore blue dungarees,
            His beard and hair were long.
            His breath smelled of mussels and paraoa.
            When he smiled it looked like the dawn.
            When he broke wind the little fishes trembled.
            When he frowned the ground shook.
            When he laughed everybody got drunk.

            The Maori Jesus came on shore
            And picked out his twelve disciples.
            One cleaned toilets in the railway station;
            His hands were scrubbed red to get the **** out of the pores.
            One was a call-girl who turned it up for nothing.
            One was a housewife who had forgotten the Pill
            And stuck her TV set in the ******* can.
            One was a little office clerk
            Who’d tried to set fire to the Government Buldings.
            Yes, and there were several others;
            One was a sad old queen;
            One was an alcoholic priest
            Going slowly mad in a respectable parish.

            The Maori Jesus said, ‘Man,
            From now on the sun will shine.’

            He did no miracles;
            He played the guitar sitting on the ground.

            The first day he was arrested
            For having no lawful means of support.
            The second day he was beaten up by the cops
            For telling a dee his house was not in order.
            The third day he was charged with being a Maori
            And given a month in Mt Crawford.
            The fourth day he was sent to Porirua
            For telling a ***** the sun would stop rising.
            The fifth day lasted seven years
            While he worked in the Asylum laundry
            Never out of the steam.
            The sixth day he told the head doctor,
            ‘I am the Light in the Void;
            I am who I am.’
            The seventh day he was lobotomised;
            The brain of God was cut in half.

            On the eighth day the sun did not rise.
            It did not rise the day after.
            God was neither alive nor dead.
            The darkness of the Void,
            Mountainous, mile-deep, civilised darkness
            Sat on the earth from then till now.

        • KJT

          Reflects my dismay at the City and sea museum in Wellington.
          Gutted the maritime displays, special to generations who worked on fishing boats and merchant ships out of Wellington, in favour of some boring “Windows” with objects, as if all those workers, didn’t exist.

    • cleangreen 11.2

      Yes Marty; regarding your comment on 11.
      ‘Good stuff – more progress – yay’ about UN human rights,- uuuummm

      We ‘disabled’ want to see the 2010 Declaration of NZ submission on ‘Human rights of disabled persons’ also come to fruition.

      As Maori Party Co-Leader at that time was Tariana Turia n handling that UN declaration on Human rights, and we disabled also included input to her modelled submission so we all had some involvement in putting it together when Tariana Turia held her public Panel called ‘bang on the table.’


      We had high hopes in receiving support as we got an addition added to her NZ UN Declaration’ then; – but nothing ever happened to give us any support or recognition.

      ‘Don’t hold your breath’

      • marty mars 11.2.1

        I’m sorry nothing has happened. This needs to be sorted. I am not up to speed on this one so I’ll have to do some research but Kia kaha.

  12. Sabine 12

    tree huggers i tell ya, tree huggers and their dreams 🙂

    this is awesome and should inspire us to do very much the same rather then cut down any tree/shrub to make space for more concrete.

    • WeTheBleeple 12.1

      “The (tree) wall has created a whole new economy”

      Damn hippies!

    • ianmac 12.2

      In the early days of the new Israel I think they laid plastic sheets on the sand and planted through it and created the green heart of today’s Israel. Pity they couldn’t help Palestine to do the same instead of shooting/bombing them.
      Hey! What if a Political Party in NZ adopted the tree planting scheme.

      • KJT 12.2.1

        I like to consider the counter history.

        Like splitting Palestine in half to both lots of people they, the Western victors, promised it to, during WW2, and instituted a Marshall plan and compensation for the displaced.
        As they did in Europe.

        Instead of spending billions on arming one side.

        But. A peaceful and united Middle East, was never part of the plan.

  13. Anne 13

    No Right Turn’s latest post is interesting.

    Whatever one might think of Martyn Bradbury, he has a right to an open hearing where all the evidence is available to him and his legal team.

    There is one possibility though and I emphasize it’s just a possibility:

    The police’s action with regard to Martyn Bradbury was likely the result of a formal instruction complaint laid by a high profile person. It is possible that is the reason for the request for a closed hearing. The police don’t want to reveal that person’s identity to Bradbury or indeed the public.


    • ianmac 13.1

      Very strange Anne. Wonder if a Judge has the power to overturn the secrecy?
      Must be awful to be “tried” without knowing what the evidence against you was. Repeating the Hager case?

      • Anne 13.1.1

        @ ianmac
        It was all about the book “Dirty Politics” and the hacking of Slater’s emails by Rawshark. My pick is:

        Someone – or someone on behalf of someone 😉 – pointed the finger at Martyn Bradbury as an accessory after the fact? Which could be why they wanted to have a look at Bradbury’s bank statements – to see if there was any evidence by way of travel arrangements or payment made to ‘a person of interest’.

        In short, the officers on the case were so blindsided by their own political bias they allowed themselves to run amok, dumping on anyone associated with the case who was regarded as coming from the wrong side of the political tracks. That included Nicky Hager of course.

        There are good. rational and principled cops.
        There are bad, irrational and unprincipled cops.

        I hope in the end Bradbury also gets a payment… to which he is entitled given the hit to his reputation and probably his personal life.

        • Sacha

          “the officers on the case were so blindsided by their own political bias”

          Yes, and when do we get an inquiry into that?

    • Dennis Frank 13.2

      Seems like the government policy of transparency does not extend to the judiciary. A privileged caste. Believers still in the patriarchal doctrine that justice is theirs, to be dispensed from on high, and provision is for those carefully selected – not for all.

      I agree with Idiot/Savant – that they are operating a bullshit scheme. Why would the bomber expect the system to deliver according to the principle of natural justice? Still naïve after all these years??

    • KJT 13.3

      Secret courts are one of the things the “West” didn’t like about the USSR.

  14. greywarshark 14

    A think on NZ and oil exploration permits.

    We smaller countries are being exploited by the large players, we should remember this. We opened our doors in 1984 to them and know as a country who a home invasion is like. But how do we turn away from our Brexit from the world of individual nations exerting some intelligent, forward-thinking authority for ourselves and not exploiting others similarly to that being practised on us?

    NZ 2018 on our oil permits.

    How gummint manages oil gas.

    Otago Daily Times covers aspects of oil and exploration.

    While actively managing our current permits, Todd Energy is continually re-evaluating and assessing new opportunities to ensure secure energy supplies for New Zealanders into the future.
    Are they one of the consortium talking up producing hydrogen in Taranaki? What other forms of energy are they envisaging and researching? I wonder if the increased R&D allocations by govt are proving useful for this?

    And PS on how important it is for the citizens to have access to control of politicians’ taking dictatorship supreme control instead of acting as careful watchdogs and supervisors of the nation’s treasures, including its scientific data.
    Note: Canada’s bad example for a start.

    • cleangreen 14.1

      100% GWS well said.

    • KJT 14.2

      I understand we cannot do anything about existing permits because of ISDS clauses in trade agreements.

      Because the short sighted clots that signed them, knew their idealogy would not legislate for environmental or human interest against corporations. So they didn’t consider it important.

  15. greywarshark 15

    Great new ideas – no problems about worrying about obtaining the resources we want to sell, just mine the seabed! Brave New World! A bit of background for those who are not knowledgable but interested like me, in the various machinations of business and how they interlock.

    This morning on Radionz:
    (Look what it does to the seabed as part of its operations.)
    1 April 2019 (Not fooling around)
    PNG seabed mining company delisted from stock exchange
    The company behind a troubled deep sea mining project in Papua New Guinea has suffered another blow in its delisting from a major stock exchange.
    In recent months, Nautilus Minerals has taken out millions in loans, obtained a court protection order against its creditors and put its assets up for sale.

    The company, which was to mine the sea floor between New Ireland and New Britain, said its common shares on the Toronto Stock Exchange would be delisted this Wednesday.
    In a statement Nautilus said it unsuccessfully tried to appeal the decision and its common shares had been suspended from trading.

    Earlier this year:
    Jan 2019 NZ
    21/1/2019 — Other Minerals and Metals
    Nautilus gets latest loan
    The aspiring seabed miner Nautilus Minerals Inc (TSX: NUS; OTC: NUSMF) has overcome its immediate hurdle of its next tranche of capital to help complete the mining and shipping equipment for its venture in Papua New Guinea.

    The company announced late last week that it had received a new loan from Deep Sea Mining Finance Ltd* for $US500,000 as part of its secured structured credit facility of up to $US34 million.
    The funds are for the seafloor massive sulphides project in the Bismarck Sea known as Solwara-1 which contained high grade copper, gold and other minerals.

    What is DSMF? and Who?
    * Deep Sea Mining Finance Ltd.
    In a last ditch bid to rescue its experimental deep sea mining project ”Solwara 1”, the two largest shareholders of Nautilus Minerals Inc, Russian mining company Metalloinvest and Omani conglomerate MB Holdings, have formed a new company whose sole job is to secure funding for the project by October 31st [1].

    It is expected that the first call will be on existing financiers of Nautilus, Metalloinvest and MB Holdings. These include HSBC (United Kingdom), ING Group (Netherlands), BNP Paribas and Société Générale (France); ABN Amro (Netherlands), and Unicredit (Italy) [2].

    The Deep Sea Mining Campaign (DSMC) and BankTrack are calling on the banks to publicly distance themselves from this financially and ecologically risky project.

    Background to Nautilus Minerals, based in Toronto.

    Background to Toronto, Province of Ontario, Canada (city where the Mayor Rob Ford, built like a bouncer, ran at and knocked over an older woman councillor; also took crack, had trouble at home involving call for police help. Apparently a rough and ready city with likely same business style, When he died, his brother Doug Ford took over his Council electorate, and Doug is now Premier of the State of Ontario – with a populist approach.)
    Doug Ford –
    31/1/2019 The federal carbon levy Doug Ford calls a ‘job-killing’ tax starts Monday

    • cleangreen 15.1

      GWS; – yes my old second home of ‘Toronto’ is now a pretty polluted place to be now as the last time I left (1998).the red sunset of pollution was becoming worse than when I first went there from NZ in 1968.

      The Toronto skyline is defined as a ‘red sunset’- when the air pollution settles on the horizon as it’s own ‘generated clouds of vehicle,and industrial pollution joins together with the winds bringing north from Detroit and Chicago across Lake Ontario to make a thick large blanket of pollution that in the evening is seen as a ‘red sunset’.

      In 1968 it was a thin pink cloud.and then in 1998 was so red it looked like the sky was bleeding.

  16. WeTheBleeple 17

    Chief censor on manifesto:

    “It promotes, encourages and justifies acts of murder and terrorist violence against identified groups of people,”

    “It identifies specific places for potential attack in New Zealand, and refers to the means by which other types of attack may be carried out. It contains justifications for acts of tremendous cruelty, such as the deliberate killing of children.”

    Banning this is what a recent several days long fight here was for. The mealy mouthed fuckers who got offended by me swearing at them were fighting for the dissemination of this garbage.

    “Free speech”

    I hope you are ashamed. I will try to curb my language. Could you please try not to be so ******* clueless.

    • cleangreen 17.1

      100% WTB.

      My support for you here.

    • RedLogix 17.2

      @ WTB

      No I am not ashamed. There are two clear aspects to this; one is that if the manifesto directly promotes and incites physical violence, then existing law is more than adequate to justify banning it. Open and shut case.

      The same principle has always applied to moderation here; say anything that incites violence, even indirectly, and you will almost certainly get a permanent ban.

      At the same time there is also a wider public interest case that rests on the example of books like Mein Kampf, or Das Kapital that were never banned despite the millions who died as direct consequence of them. There are many, many similar massacres and horrors that we have documented in great detail, as a stark signposts to hell.

      For very good reason the we have learned to be wary of book burning; it never leads anywhere good. The problem is always this; who does the banning?

      Two different principles in conflict. My suggested resolution is for the ban on the manifesto to be time limited, maybe five or ten years, as a compromise that both sides of the argument could tolerate.

      • WeTheBleeple 17.2.1

        Oh just go away you fucking termite.

        It isn’t a book. It’s the whining justification of a mass murderer terrorist.

        With instructions for kids.

        There is no justification. None.

        The best poets in the world could not justify that act.

        Maybe you fancy yourself as edgy.

        • RedLogix

          Pointless abuse.

        • RedLogix

          It’s the whining justification of a mass murderer terrorist.

          That may well be the case, but why should I take your word for it?

          Have you read it?

          • Muttonbird

            Earlier today I laughed but thought MM might have been a bit premature calling you WhiteLogix, but now I see that nickname is totally apt.

            • WeTheBleeple

              “It’s when people believe they are always 100% right on something that they become extremists, unable to be reasoned with, and implacably convinced of their superiority. Like our shooter.” – RedLogix 17/03

      • Dennis Frank 17.2.2

        “Justice Minister Andrew Little says he’s fast-tracking a law review which could see hate crimes made a new legal offence. He said the current law on hate speech was not thorough and strong enough and needed to change.”

        He stopped just short of saying “Dennis Frank is right”. I opined that the reason the law hasn’t been used is that it ain’t fit for purpose. I explicitly identified the lack of an attached definition of hate speech as the primary reason for no prosecution.

        “Mr Little said the Christchurch shootings highlighted the need for a better mechanism to deal with incidents of hate speech and other hateful deeds.”

        Could be Aotearoa’s civil rights establishment will tackle him. “The Human Rights Commission says it does not want a change to hate speech laws” was their stance a couple of years ago. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11831648

        At the time, Maori historian Paul Moon “released an open letter signed by 27 New Zealanders including Don Brash and Tariana Turia, warning free speech is under threat.” I wonder if Paul has changed his mind?

        • RedLogix

          It’s amazing how little imagination authoritarians have, that they can never seem to visualise how these new powers they so enthusiastically grant the state, could be so easily used against them.

          How hard for instance would it be to get the NZ1 party manifesto banned on the grounds that it was ‘hate speech’?

          • Dennis Frank

            So difficult that no leftist opponent of NZF has even suggested doing so, even though many have complained about their anti-immigration policy since the nineties. Their irrational inconsistency seems inexplicable…

            • WeTheBleeple

              It’s sweary time.

              I was talking about folk trying to discuss the manifesto and banging on about free speech to justify it. you led this vile charge. It was not about NZ1st you change the subject in your dishonest way you are being a deliberately misleading shit as usual. You were all gung ho for discussing the crap here and I jumped on you for it because you’re a worthless prick of a man when it comes to peoples feelings.

              I’ve really tried to lend you some rope because sometimes you have something but it’s just dig dig dig every fucking comment lefties are idiots Dennis Frank is great what a fucking joke of a man.

              You are not worth the effort.

          • Anne

            I accept that new laws on “hate speech” is opening up a can of worms because everyone has a slightly different idea what constitutes hate speech. However, if they are able to come up with something totally definitive in the sense that the law could not be misinterpreted and it applied only to the more vile examples, then I would support such a move.

            I only wish “hate deeds” had been a criminal offence 20 plus years ago. I was a victim of such deeds (albeit linked to political ideology – not racism or religion) and it would have been nice to have been able to seek and obtain justice for what was done. As it was, the police were not interested. They certainly would be now but it’s too late.

            • RedLogix

              It was the same approach I advocated around moderation here for years; hammer the worst and most egregious examples at the margins, and leave the rest to sort themselves out. It’s an idea a good Dutch mate of mine described to me decades ago.

              Another way of putting it, always use the minimum force necessary to achieve the desired goal. Otherwise the cure is likely to be worse than the problem you are trying to solve.

              Even the current law struggles to define ‘hate speech’. All other categories of crime are connected to something concrete or measurable. But hate is an entirely abstract and subjective concept. Beyond the obvious problem of where to draw the line there is the question of exactly how to legally define the impact.

              For example, Brian Tamaki’s ridiculous rant about gays and earthquakes was probably greeted by many in the gay community with gales of laughter; but then some may have felt the offense quite deeply. Yet assuming all gay people think and feel the same is the very definition of prejudice, but any law would have to assume this was the case right from the outset.

              The reality is that if you say anything serious at all, someone will be offended. This place proves that if nothing else.

        • Dennis Frank

          When Bishop Tamaki claimed that gays caused earthquakes three years ago, a QC reckoned it was hate speech. “Ms Joychild says Mr Tamaki’s speech was a hate speech.” https://www.lawsociety.org.nz/news-and-communications/latest-news/news/when-is-it-hate-speech

          Ah, but you can’t expect a QC to put their money where their mouth is, eh? They need to save all those zillions of dollars for a rainy day.

          “Frances Joychild QC does not think a successful case could be mounted against Brian Tamaki in relation to sexual harassment following his speech blaming gay people for the earthquakes.”

          • Pat

            did she further state that she could try…for a price?

            • Dennis Frank

              👦 Mercenary not a good look for QCs. They be above the fray. Crusading moral advocacy ain’t even a career path here, as far as I can tell, despite being so prominent & traditional in the US legal scene…

              • Pat

                QCs arnt above being mercenary…they just charge more…and crusading moral advocacy is indeed a career path, just one that dosnt pay

      • Muttonbird 17.2.3

        There’s two sides to this argument? 😳

        • Pat

          theres always at least two sides to an argument…especially if youre charging in 6 minute blocks

        • RedLogix

          Well if it had only one side it wouldn’t be an argument would it 🙂

          • Muttonbird

            Quite. I’m struggling to see the argument and dismayed there even is one.

            • RedLogix

              OK I get that. And I accept what you are saying in good faith.

              There will be other people who hold to quite the opposite view, and then annoying termites like me who hold to both at the same fucking time 🙂

              • WeTheBleeple

                You must be sophisticated to see there are two sides to an argument. Interlechshills like yourself are too clever for peasants and marees.

                • RedLogix

                  Not really; it’s just my training and career that inclines me to think like this. Automation would be easy if nothing ever went wrong, getting the machine or process to do what you expect it to do is usually the easy part. 80% or more of the job is dealing with all the things that can and do go wrong.

                  Engineering risk management is all about estimating likelihoods and unintended consequences. I’ve spent months sitting through HAZOP meetings; grinding through plant designs in brain crushing detail; methodically deriving and estimating the hazards, then tediously working through the pros and cons of each mitigation.

                  On here I guess this has carried over into my annoying habit of looking to see where an argument or line of reasoning can go wrong, what it’s weak point’s are and what the counter argument might be. I can see how others can perceive that as egg-headed, cool and aloof.

                  A very old mate of mine once described me as ‘too neurotic to be a psychopath, but not smart enough to be a proper Aspie’ 🙂

                  Also I’m naturally inclined to make a defense case for lost causes. It doesn’t make me popular, but you would probably quite like me as your barrister.

          • Dennis Frank

            What about zen? Aren’t practitioners to be found strolling about wooded glades in Asia, doing one-sided arguing? In anticipation of applause via the sound of one hand clapping…

            • Incognito

              The other day, me, myself, and I had a huge fight about something so stupid I can’t even remember. I won and was almightily pleased with myself who gave me a pat on the back. Afterwards, I had a few drinks with all three of us and it was such fun to be on speaking terms and together again; the silent treatment from myself had been killing me and I couldn’t do anything about it. Kindness goes a long way and let that be a lesson for all of us.

  17. marty mars 18

    Great start. And more must be done to eliminate all of this and start getting sustainable. Plus too often ‘down the hole’ is the main way of getting rid of anything.

    “Associate Environment Minister Eugenie Sage today announced $381,000 in Government funding to enable farmers and growers to better deal with waste.

    The funding, from the Ministry for the Environment’s Waste Minimisation Fund, will mean farmers and growers can more easily recycle or safely dispose of a wider range of on-farm waste such as agrichemicals, scrap metal, soft plastics and used oil.”


  18. The Chairman 19

    Thus far, the Greens have done little for low income earners and in my view are unlikely to be widely seen as living up to Metiria Turei’s cause. Hence, the Greens being in power has been a failing from the left perspective.

    And what about on the environmental front? Have the Greens done enough in power to appease the environmentalist and fend off a new challenge from TOP?

    • McFlock 19.1

      Thanks for your concern.

      TOP just lost their cheque book and their biggest obstacle. Given that cash is king, I reckon they will struggle to hit 2% in 2020.

      • cleangreen 19.1.1

        100% MF

      • The Chairman 19.1.2

        “TOP just lost their cheque book and their biggest obstacle.”

        That hasn’t stopped them from vying to win-over the Green vote. And the withdrawal of their biggest obstacle will better their chances. Helped along by the Greens lacklustre performance in power.

        • McFlock

          Yes indeed.
          TOP are completely trashing the Greens, hitting as much as ten percent (of the Green vote). /sarc

          • WeTheBleeple

            TOP was the first stab at TEAL.

            I told a neolib ‘there is no economy without the ecology’ while Key was still in power. He gushed over it like wisdom had sprung up in the room.

            ‘Some of us have been working on something. Business and environment. Blue-green’ he smugly scoffed as he drank more wine, ‘Gareth Morgan’ he said.

            Nobody gave Vernon the memo, or he simply wasn’t invited.

            TEAL Team 1.

          • The Chairman

            It would only take the loss of 1 or 2 percent to take the Greens totally out of the game.

            • Pat

              but that 1 or 2 % is in fact 15 to 30 percent of current Green support…dosnt look quite so doable in those terms

              • The Chairman

                Not sure about that. The Greens are known for shooting themselves in the foot and killing off their own support. Let alone the prospect of being challenged by another Green party.

                And to think, one of the reasons Shaw was brought into the leadership was the notion he would increase their support.

                On a side note, one wonders how much effort the Greens put into securing more for the sick and unemployed?

                • Pat

                  Their recent support level of around 7% is historically low (recent) so would indicate a relatively staunch base support level…to remove 15 -30 % of that would appear to me to be highly unlikely…any blue /green party will take their support largely from elsewhere…IMO mainly National

                  • The Chairman

                    “Their recent support level of around 7% is historically low (recent) so would indicate a relatively staunch base support level”

                    Yet, with them in power and securing wins their support should be at a high. The fact that it isn’t should be a concern.

                    If TOP stated new policy that appealed to the left/centre, they would widen their appeal and become more of a threat. And with the Greens in such a precarious position they can’t afford to be to laid-back about it.

        • Psycho Milt

          Helped along by the Greens lacklustre performance in power.

          Yes, who could have predicted that a party with as much as 6% of the vote would fail to dominate the government’s agenda? Incompetence is the only possible answer, right?

          • The Chairman

            Incompetence is the one thing the Greens aren’t lacking.

            Yes, who would have expected the Greens to secure more on the environment from a Prime Minister that has made it her generation’s nuclear free moment.

            • Psycho Milt

              Who could have expected them to get more than a ban on further oil exploration that’s been a free gift for opposition propaganda against the major coalition partner, a zero-carbon bill that’s going to be the same, a big increase in DoC funding, etc etc, all achieved against the strong opposing force of a conservative coalition partner that got a higher percentage of the vote than them? Who indeed? Only the most disingenuous of anti-Green propagandists, I expect.

              • The Chairman

                Think of me what you wish but I’m not the problem for the Greens. Sure, they’ve had some wins, but will it be enough to maintain their support, especially when challenged?

            • Gabby

              The level of incompetence amongst those who put themselves forward for office, recognition, status, is pretty high all round, chemmy.

  19. logie97 20

    Gun Shops.
    I have no interest in fire arms themselves.
    But just a question, why aren’t the outlets for guns situated in or next to police stations.
    In fact, if you could only buy them through the police …

    • cleangreen 20.1

      Black Monday. – 1st April 2019.

      Nine road deaths today, and stated as the worst since 2005 the press said today.


      Nine people have died in three separate car crashes this morning
      1 April 2019
      The latest, is a man whose car plunged into the water near Auckland Airport just after 1am.

      He was taken to Middlemore Hospital in a critical condition but has since died.
      >> More Accident and Emergency News
      © 2019 Newstalk ZB, NZCity

    • bwaghorn 20.2

      Why . The cops are busy enough.
      Just regulate what can be brought. And keep a register of all guns . I voluntarily registered mine when I renewed my license recently.

    • Cinny 20.3

      outlets for guns situated in or next to police stations.
      In fact, if you could only buy them through the police …

      That’s a really good idea.

    • Sabine 20.4


    • Pat 20.5

      now theres an idea

    • WeTheBleeple 21.1

      But think of the education of the intelligensia. How can they pontificate on matters they know nothing of if they can’t commiserate with the terrorists by walking mental miles in their shoes.

      Think of the tragedy of books lost to mankind forever. Think of the potential loss of information in the age of the internet, this desert of dedicated dissemination of dross.

      I taught some prisoners to write poetry once, as an emotional outlet. One guy fancied himself rather clever, a level of delusion similar to a certain praxis posting ponce here. He photocopied his poetry and accompanying sketches (skulls, breasts, snakes, knives) and intimidated people into buying copies for $10.

      The first poem. Untitled.

      ‘She had the greatest tits I’ve ever seen…’

      Now, call me a disrespectful asshole but I think A LOT of literature could be burnt and nobody would ever miss it. Including most poetry.

  20. Eco Maori 22

    Kia ora The AM Show.
    don’t you think all the bad news about The America Cup is actually bad for the competition.????????? Moving it to Tauranga ain’t going to make it more viable NO.The America Cup draws in the billionaire punters
    frazer is using the christchurch desaster as a tool for his publicity no one knew who he was before this any publicity is good publicity.
    ”I’ The scammers love gullible people they play you like a jutebox be careful people you could lose more than money they can steal your reality.
    The sandflys are in the same league they are spinning about my reality my neighbours watch them break into my house they will be getting blinded by the sandflys big shiny badges what a joke
    Niki Wahine need to be payed Equally as men after all its the Wahine that look after the mokos when things go wrong I also back pay equality as that will give Wahine more power and BIGGER VOICES and influence on the Papatuanukue stage.
    Respect needs to be given and it was cool that the Prime Minister showed that after the christchurch desaster.
    Respect needs to be valued more on Papatuanukue respect for humanity respect from mother nature respect every one Ka kite ano

  21. Eco Maori 23

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute.

  22. Eco Maori 24

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute.

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