I did make the effort to read the piece and at the end, I noted the author's 'credentials'. The infamous quote from one Mandy Rice-Davies immediately sprung to mind.
I see really good opinions regularly on TS. What about some of the writers seeking jobs on these news outlets? Or will they only accept RWs or dedicated controversialists? Well we have those too. Go for it I reckon, do what you love doing and get paid for it.
I've seen video of such happenings; filmed in Haiti. Very dramatic.
*sings “Do, do that voodoo, that you do, so well…”
By “She”, you meant Judith, right?
Opinion pieces that are penned by Mps staff seems to scraping the bottom of the barrel- wouldnt it normally be ghost written by BVV and appear under Seymours name.
Or is it the other way round and Seymour does some bullet points and his office writes it up, but Seymour is too scared of offending nationals big wigs such as Bridges, Bennett and co so hides behind his employee
Genetic engineering is not required when organic farming has the solutions, writes Philippa Jamieson.
"Former chief science adviser Sir Peter Gluckman has said that New Zealand could become a ''backwater'' if we don't loosen up our laws governing genetic engineering. The ODT editorial (19.8.19) also claimed we are ''in serious danger of becoming uncompetitive''.
On the contrary! We stand to gain by remaining GE-free, and even better, by transitioning towards organics. Demand for clean, green, GE-free, safe, healthy, ethical organic food is increasing year on year – around the world and here in Aotearoa New Zealand."
A small country like ours could be a niche provider of good quality food
We're an island, we don't have the problems of continental borders We are uniquely positioned to take advantage of this preference in the market
And apart from all that economic blather primarily we could do it through our commitment to more natural farming. Genetic selection and breeding , yes, forceful splicing( a kind of rape of a plant's integrity) , no
Good to see a rebuttal of Sir Peter Gluckman the scientist that Gnats love to love. I think John Key made some comment about specialist advisors – that for every gambit that the Left could produce, he could produce a different one from the Right. So it is all a battle for whoever will prevail, and the devil take the hindmost despite real outcomes that need precaution to prevent, or positive input to create and encourage.
Key got away with comparing legal opinions – which are just etheria- and science which is more rigorous and has a defined process to become peer reviewed .
The closest example is a court judgement after the opinions and facts have been presented.
Given that she's an organic food industry lobbyist, "Well she would say that, wouldn't she?" I expect a GE industry lobbyist would take a different view.
She would and they would. It's a nuanced discussion, that of organically-grown food in relation to that which is not grown that way. Some human industries might have been better to have been left as theory, rather than pursued, by humans; "germ warfare" for example, and I wonder if there's a bona fide way of knowing, at the outset, whether any particular path is a wise one to follow, or not. Clearly arguments can be made and won, even though the results might ultimately be catastrophic. Is there a way to judge, in the early stages, the wisdom of such proposals? The GE proposals are some that are met with strong feelings of opposition by people such as Philippa; is she correct in her position? Is it just "reasoned debate" that can determine the suitable path to take? Are the views of indigenous peoples the true measure of such proposals? I think that needs exploring.
The precautionary principle seems a useful frame to judge emerging tech. Do we actually *need GE foods? I can't see any reason why we do. If some consider it a nice to have, let's work with the precautionary principle first. Should have applied that to dairy conversions too.
There are some quite useful possibilities that come with the technology – soybeans modified to synthesize lysine for example, a protein chiefly found in fish, the absence of which slows growth rates in a number of domestic animals.
Unfortunately the technology seems to have been first adopted by the ravening loons at Monsanto, so they went after terminator genes and "roundup readiness". The former is a fairly reasonable use, the latter two not worth taking chances for.
I agree that Monsanto has taken things to whole new heights. However the soybean example would be a decades long experiment until we get large long term studies. If we look at the fat hypothesis, we can see half a century now of bad science and worse public health response and despite the problems with the hypothesis being well known for a decade we're still not moving on changing.
I just don't think we are anywhere near close to being able to responsibly assess and manage GE tech in the food chain. Part of that is capitalism and Monsanto culture, but those dynamics are throughout society including science and medicine.
The lysine soybeans were done long ago – Big Ag twisted Monsanto's arm.
Actually I think it can be assessed responsibly without too much trouble, the difficulty is once you say yes proponents will try to bring in everything, a very undesirable tendency.
There is also the thing that plant geneticists are possible well paid skilled occupations for a sustainable future society. NZ used to be good at that stuff, even without these new technologies.
An assessment of value versus risk, with a field trial imposition or exclusion for not meeting value minimums. So that a crop field tested for twenty years or so might be okayed for general release – if it has no complaints against it in that time.
The difficulty would be to create a system robust enough to remain operative under the reckless stupidity of the current opposition – and that would certainly be an almost insurmountable challenge.
The field test is to reveal problems not anticipated in the design phase. So going back to the lysine soybeans – have they any cultural (ie are they invasive or do they cross fertilize to a problematic degree) or do they develop toxicity or provoke allergic responses. If twenty years say no, they're not so different from comparable non GE soybeans and need not be restricted.
Plants designed for high pesticide resistance or to resist insect pests by accumulating toxins might have to reach a higher standard. But for example the GMO designed to restore the American Chestnut does not seem to be problematic, and subject to a trial, might be released.
“have they any cultural (ie are they invasive or do they cross fertilize to a problematic degree) or do they develop toxicity or provoke allergic responses”
How do you assess provoking allergic responses? Or other health issues? It sounds good in theory, but we know that people already have various reactions to eating soy, and that food intolerances seem to be increasing and we don’t yet know why. Add to that that science isn’t *that good at assessing combined and culmulative effects, nor understanding the synergistic aspect of plants that has come about via natural selection and how that impacts on humans (eg what’s the relationship of lysine to the other amino acids and other components and processes in the plant?), and I’ll invoke the precautionary principle again.
The point of lysine is that stock that lack it in their diets have their growth constrained – it need only be about 0.5 or 1 %. Traditionally this shortfall was made up with fishmeal, but growing demand versus declining supply has made that very expensive, and it promotes 'kill everything' fishing habits. I'm not sure if it is used for salmon feeds or the cooked legume based fish feeds they've developed in Oz, but in principle it would be sensible.
Allergy testing is usually by scratch tests, there are well standardized protocols.
This from weka is a very well put piece of truth that should be absorbed in every brain cell by those positing that increased technology and experimentation of any sort is what we need to overcome all our present and future problems.
I just don't think we are anywhere near close to being able to responsibly assess and manage GE tech in the food chain. Part of that is capitalism and Monsanto culture, but those dynamics are throughout society including science and medicine.
There is an interesting example coming up for consideration that perhaps we could look at and that is a new version of ryegrass that has been trialled for NZ (I understand) in the USA. Has every downside of its use been examined carefully and objectively? If we did decide to use it, would we have complete ownership of it? Or have we foregone that by not doing the trials ourselves. Can we trust the firm to maintain their integrity and commit themselves and their employees to handing back to us all our material and renounce any interest in it?
The main problem is the current separation of responsibility, of the people making the money, shareholders, and the people who end up paying for the fuckups, us!
Simply changing company law, so that those who profit from any technology, or any business activity, are jointly strictly liable personally under criminal law, with penalties commensurate with the costs, for any consequent damage, would stop a lot of enthusiasm for untested technology.
Monsanto would fast lose their enthusiasm for roundup, if they knew there is a certainty of having to prove dead bees wasn't them.
The precautionary principle seems a useful frame to judge emerging tech.
The precautionary principle is a handy tool for opposing the introduction of a new technology, because it demands the inventors prove a negative. It's not very useful outside of that context.
Do we actually *need GE foods?
Nope. But then, given that we made it through half a billion years of evolution without using any technology at all until the last hundred thousand, the same answer applies to all technology – from stone tools through to artificial intelligence.
That's not what I meant though. I mean us, now, in the middle of the post-industrial revolution. Some tech we need eg how to maintain nuclear reactors so they don't cause mass damage. We need cancer treatments. We need ways of growing food. We don't have a lot of alternatives for preventing nuclear fallout or cancer, we do have perfectly adequate alternatives to GE for food growing. If half the effort (science and political) went into that instead of GE, we'd be well on our way to reducing ag GHGs by now.
"The precautionary principle is a handy tool for opposing the introduction of a new technology, because it demands the inventors prove a negative. It's not very useful outside of that context."
not in this case. Proof of a negative isn't required. Pro-GE people might frame it like that but that misses the point of the precautionary principle. If there's reasonable grounds for caution because of the unknown nature of the proposal, then the inability to prove a negative is useful. It slows us down so we can make better decisions.
Opposition to GE is essentially religious in nature, so no amount of testing will ever be enough to convince opponents that the precautionary principle has been satisfied. I don't see a difference between that and asking people to prove a negative.
"Opposition to GE is essentially religious in nature"
Oh bullshit. Those who opposed to GE actually understand what the process is and how the result is an organism that cannot be proven to be safe, as opposed to organisms that we've been consuming for thousands of years that have only been changed by natural or specific selection. And if you claim GE is the same as selection by trait you don't understand what Genetic Engineering is. Though the name should give you some clue.
Evidence and rational argument is always a pretty good start.
I fully agree. But it can never be complete, conclusive, definitive, and absolute. Nor can it be the be-all-end-all. Nor can it nullify emotions. Nor can it decide moral dilemmas.
Bull. Any science that is carried out by people who want to make a profit from a technology should be treated with suspicion.
And the cost benefit ratio to the community should be assessed. Including the degree of risk if it turns out like the introduction of rabbits, down the track.
After enough testing to ensure that it is safe enough.
Not forgetting what companies did to farmers over patented crops.
There are also commercial reasons to remain GE free for export crops. There is a huge market around the world to people who don't want to be lab rats.
Incognito: I understand that. It's why evidence and rational argument is a good place to start, not the be-all and end-all.
Robert: if we start with evidence and rational argument, it's up to GE opponents to explain what harm they envisage from GE, not to issue an impossible demand for GE researchers to prove that no damage could possibly occur.
"Robert: if we start with evidence and rational argument, it's up to GE opponents to explain what harm they envisage from GE, not to issue an impossible demand for GE researchers to prove that no damage could possibly occur. "
I agree. Will you put forward your evidence and rational argument so we can have a discussion? It would be interesting to start with one simple claim/aspect, rather than a general one; much easier to contain the discussion and hopefully, reach agreement.
Robert: it would be simpler to start with one simple aspect if GE opponents were only opposed to particular individual instances of it and unopposed to it as a general principle, but that isn't the case. Blanket rejection of GE as a technology requires evidence and rational argument for that blanket rejection.
Don't you think that sellers of technology should show that it is safe.
We even have safety requirements for car manufacturers. Crop and pesticide developers, especially in the USA, are largely self regulated, with only the threat of individual law suits. As with tobacco, those take decades to affect profits enough to have any effect.
Don't you think that sellers of technology should show that it is safe.
I certainly do. Technology like this requires thorough testing in a rigorous regulatory environment. Which we have.
The flip side of that question is equally valid: don't you think that once thorough testing in a tightly-regulated environment shows a technology is safe, its use should be permitted?
to Robert at 2: " Demand for…..safe organic food is increasing etc" is why this great gran is (after early swim to keep fit enough to accomplish it) going to spend this gorgeous Dunedin day attending to my vegies and berries as have done for decades. wherever my home. Importantly, the taste of food fresh from the garden is inestimably better than almost anything from supermarket shelves, conveniently at hand and cheaper.
to Robert at 2.3.1. : enjoyed the smile…..NB that this great gran has enjoyed home grown food since babyhood and knows her onions regarding development in GE. Had gardens for my classes for decades …..also taught about greenhouse gas threat as soon as was in science journals.
Structural separation and a re-merger would mean the electricity industry would have approximately the same market structure that the National government imposed on the telecommunications industry when it forced Telecom to split into Spark and Chorus and decided that retailers of ultrafast broadband (UFB) should compete on an even footing.
…
Reintegrating the 51-per cent stated-owned generators and spinning off their retail arms into fully privatised businesses may ultimately prove necessary. That is if the industry is to meet the challenge of increasing electricity supply by 43 per cent to generate the 57 terawatt-hours (TWh) that Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment officials believe will be required by 2050, and the Government's goal of 100 per cent renewable generation by 2035.
You forgot one part about 'forced separation' of Telecom and Chorus
National government paid around $950 mill to buy 45% of Chorus AND provided 'soft loans' for Chorus to build Fibre street network PLUS tax payer funded installs ( $2000 each ?) from street backbone to ‘ fibre terminating unit’ inside the house.
There is a multi billion dollar public funded utility in controlled by a private business.
I always thought years ago that when Telecom was sold off ( so taxpayers wouldnt have to bail it out or fund its capital for expansion) that one day we would have to 'buy it back' – like we did with Kiwirail and Air NZ.
And by various means , we paid for it but didnt get the ownership !
Steven Joyce, negotiating genius. Even with Cunliffe having done the legwork on separation, his successor still managed to transfer more state money into private pockets to sweeten the deal.
Treasury must have had a seizure when they were asked to evaluate the proposal, dont recall much at the time .
Not only that but the whole fibre broadband tender from Chorus at the time was , as they say, 'non conforming' which it meant they didnt meet the terms and conditions. But they jacked up a backroom deal with Joyce with a few titbits for others to give a semblance of open tender.
Curran has been dragged over the coals for a meeting or two with Carol Hirschfeld and yet Joyce was in deals 'off the calendar' worth 'billions' and nothing in the media ( mostly because the main media journalists were 'his chooks' who were regularly fed inside stories- except the likes of Road Oram who were forced out)
Am I the only one who wishes Martyn Bradbury would shut the f*** up about everything 'woke'. He honestly has some serious obsession issues in that regard.
No, Bradbury's always been like this, or at least in the years I've seen him online. It's just another version of his anti-identity politics views. Work culture in NZ needs critiquing but he's not the person to do it because he's not very good at listening and just ends up polarising the left further.
Woke comes out of Black culture in the US, where it has a different meaning and usage.
Unfortunately, Thunberg was also greeted by a wave of misogynist nastiness, largely coming from allegedly grown men in both Europe and the United States. The attacks on Thunberg were in the same vein as those on Ocasio-Cortez, accusing her of being too stupid to know what she's talking about and denying that her voice is one worth honoring. A writer for the conservative Washington Examiner claimed that Thunberg is a victim of "child abuse" and that her mother "pimps their kid out," explicitly drawing a line between forced sex work and climate activism.
To Sacha at 5: that comment about "child abuse" towards Thunberg's parents reminds me of a BBC reporter at the Auckland CHOGM conference who asked me why a woman like me ( not defined) was holding an anti-nuke banner. In discussion I told him of young grandson also very perturbed about nuclear testing at that time, whereupon he replied that children shouldn't know about such things!
I suspect he had no idea that the protest was about Mururoa in particular but British and French interest in nukes as well, and was there to report clamour for arriving dignitaries.
'pimps their kid out'. Vile comment. We have had a few slurs here also. Some brains need to go in the wash and be hung to dry in sunlight. A natural disinfectant for some very degraded, besmirched humans.
With this trial of supplying lunches to some test schools, I ask why lunch, would not breakfast have a greater result? As then the students are in a better place for the entire school day not the last couple of hours.
i thought breakfast would be easier to make available and would also be able to more easily be adapted to cover most if not all dietary and cultural needs and can be provided on site. Lunch time is more compressed and I would imagine require heating of food with pre prepared being needed off site and food would be more difficult to cover varied needs.
Getting kids to school on time and settling them into a routine is not an easy task. Maybe providing breakfast is a good way of achieving that but it will cut into class time. Indeed, it would be better to provide sustenance at the beginning of the day but I think the practicality of that works against it.
Definitely the Kids are much easier to settle down in class if they have had breakfast. I found running them around the field first thing, especially the Boys also helped.
On Spirit of Adventure the kids started with star jumps and swimming around the ship in the morning, followed by a full cooked breakfast. No trouble getting them to pay attention.
Yes, and in some pre-schools too. They are mostly cereal and milk and the children can often help themselves. No big fuss is made about them, hence many people might not know. It's been hapening for years – at least 10 I would say
But clearly, while feeding kids at school/preschool helps somewhat, it hasn't done enough to stop the growing queues at food banks nor the growing demand for hardship grants.
It requires actions like, actually paying people enough money to live, instead of tax payers subsidizing underpaying employers. But that option doesn't seem to have arrived on Labours radar, and is anathema to National's "socialism for the rich".
Schools I have been in (Secondary sector) recognised that most kids ate most of their lunch at Morning Interval, so lengthened Morning Interval a bit, shifted Lunch back one hour, and had only one period after lunch instead of the old two periods, when difficult classes could be at their most nightmarish.
Because of this, I would seriously hope that these so-called 'lunches' will be given out at Morning Interval.
Lunch time is too late, and would minimise the benefit.
Hence, when I called out Cinny & Rosemary on their denial of the impact of poverty on the high number of suicides it wasn't without good reason
We have families where people are living with no hope and no opportunities. When someone feels like they have nowhere to go, one of the consequences is suicide.” – Far North Mayor John Carter.
The Morgan Foundation have been researching what works (see below) to ensure lower income families get the chance to thrive.
The evidence shows it is poverty itself that is at the heart of why lower income children and parents experience greater levels of mental distress.
In the book Pennies From Heaven, I describe research showing that being poor affects parents and their children’s wellbeing through increased stress.
Stress affects the way parents interact with children, it affects their family relationships, and the brain development of children themselves – all of which impacts on parents’ and children’s mental wellbeing.
Cash with no strings attached is a very powerful tool.
We researched the effectiveness of intensive in-home pre-schooling, parental training, housing interventions, food in schools and nurses in schools, additional cash for families with children, compulsory employment programmes for parents and more.
Nothing was as powerful in improving lives and preventing negative outcomes as unconditional cash.
Unconditional cash lifts the stress – other interventions may not
Cash without strings allows parents to alleviate their family’s particular source of stress – no family has exactly the same sources of stress or the same set of support needs. Cash does not proscribe or prescribe solutions.
Conditional or in-kind assistance (e.g. food in schools, welfare to work programmes) assume to know the source of all struggling families’ needs, or else place conditions on parents in return for that support (like low-paid casual work attendance). These assumptions and conditions can simply increase stress.
Hence, when I called out Cinny & Rosemary on their denial of the impact of poverty on the high number of suicides it wasn’t without good reason
However, IMO you are misinterpreting if not twisting their words and using this to vindicate yourself and/or your judgemental opinion in some way. Get over it! Sensitive topics such as suicide are not for scoring points of any kind.
You stubbornly refuse to listen and taken on board suggestions and advice. You stubbornly refuse to change your style and MO. You can get quite shitty when challenged. You stubbornly refuse to take responsibility for your role in the frequent pile-ons. Your hypercritical negative comments are nothing but your biased opinion and judgement but you don’t acknowledge or accept that.
I am getting fed up with your judgemental criticisms because they do not make for good robust debate. I’m giving you yet another warning to change your ways, because you can make a (highly) positive contribution here on this site even or particularly if it is criticism of the Government, past or present, instead of diverting attention away to yourself. Please take heed or sooner or later I will take away your privilege of commenting on this site irrespective of you being a leftie, which you most likely are; you are not the first leftie to receive a ban – Incognito]
totally support what you are saying about poverty as a cause of depression/suicide..
it does my head in how journalists don't seem to have the nous to ask emoting politicians that question..
it also does my head in how so many of the unblinking/in-lockstep supporters of this gimmint shift uneasily in their seats at this question – knowing their labour gummint (except for sole-parents) has done s.f.a. to address poverty…
which – can only be done – not by more emoting – but by increasing the incomes – by a substantial amount – of those poorest/most likely to kill themselves…
While the general point may true , comparing raw numbers with high numbers of teens/younger adults may just produce relatively higher numbers than areas with far less of those groups. Guess what demographics have large families ?
Its the equivalent of saying very busy roads have more crashes because they are 'dangerous', when the clue is they have massively higher numbers of cars.
Clearly, you overlooked this: Suicide rates are 90 per cent higher in areas of high deprivation. Thus, we are not only talking about the number of youth suicides.
In search of finding solutions we seek reasons why the problem is occurring.
And one common denominator in this problem is suicide rates are 90 per cent higher in areas (note, areas, not just the far north) of high deprivation.
While I have respect for Mike and know he speaks from experience in this matter, he doesn't speak for everyone. Moreover, the negative impacts of living in poverty helps form and develop ones inner critic. Putting people in that dark space.
I looked up archives for TS wanting to see ratings for this site which I know we have and couldn't strike the right heading. Could someone give me a steer for where to find them please? ( I was looking at Open Parachute and remembered that lprent mentioned that some other meter was being used.)
On how the rhetoric used by conservative apologists mirrors that used by pre-war supporters of the south.
After the El Paso shooting, Ben Shapiro — a popular conservative podcaster — asked Americans to draw a line between the few conservatives who are white supremacists and those who, like him, aren’t. Almost all Americans are “on the same side,” he said, and “we should be mourning together.” In his telling, we aren’t, for “one simple reason: Too many on the political left [are] castigating the character of those who disagree,” lumping conservatives and political nonconformists together with racists and xenophobes.
I grew up in a conservative family. The people I talk to most frequently, the people I call when I need help, are conservative. I’m not inclined to paint conservatives as thoughtless bigots. But a few years ago, listening to the voices and arguments of commentators like Shapiro, I began to feel a very specific deja vu I couldn’t initially identify. It felt as if the arguments I was reading were eerily familiar. I found myself Googling lines from articles, especially when I read the rhetoric of a group of people we could call the “reasonable right.”
[…]
So it felt frustrating: When I read Weiss, when I listened to Shapiro, when I watched Peterson or read the supposedly heterodox online magazine Quillette, what was I reminded of?
My childhood home is just a half-hour drive from the Manassas battlefield in Virginia, and I grew up intensely fascinated by the Civil War. I loved perusing soldiers’ diaries. During my senior year in college, I studied almost nothing but Abraham Lincoln’s speeches. While I wrote my thesis on a key Lincoln address, Civil War rhetoric was almost all I read: not just that of the 16th president but also that of his adversaries.
Thinking back on those debates, I finally figured it out. The reasonable right’s rhetoric is exactly the same as the antebellum rhetoric I’d read so much of. The same exact words. The same exact arguments. Rhetoric, to be precise, in support of the slave-owning South.
A petition calling on the government not to suspend Parliament has gained more than one million signatures, while more than 50 MPs from the main parties have also pledged to set up an alternative House of Commons if the suspension goes forward. …
In London, thousands of angry protesters on Saturday rallied outside Downing Street, the official residence of the prime minister, to oppose the controversial move scheduled for early September….
More than 80 protests across the UK on Saturday were organised by the anti-Brexit campaign group Another Europe is Possible and were led by Momentum – a left-wing caucus within the opposition Labour Party. The organisers named the protests "Stop the Coup" in reference to Johnson's plans.
The gathering in London brought together people from a range of backgrounds.
Paddy Gemmell, 15, a student from London, said the suspension of Parliament is "undemocratic".
"Since people voted for Brexit many have begun to understand what that actually means and have changed their minds – their voices should be heard," he said.
Lies were told before the vote by the Remainers you only read the Guardian who are hyper partisan on remain at all costs so they ignore all the nonsense they told before the referendum vote. It was so bad they even had a code name for it Project Fear
"In May 2016, then-chancellor George Osborne warned leaving the EU could cause a drop in house prices of 18% – it didn’t materialise and 11 months later, Nigel Farage was crowing as prices continued to rise."
George Osborne, the then Chancellor, said in a BBC Radio 4 interview that leaving the European Union would cause "financial instability" and leave "no economic plan," which would need an immediate response from the government. "There would have to be increases in tax and cuts in public spending to fill the black hole," he said.
Good to see the backlash against this odious decision to auction off this significant Māori cloak by the english. This is not the 1840s anymore… This taonga needs to be sent back to the iwi in NZ where it belongs free of charge instead of living in a cupboard.
Indeed vile abuse and threats are not the best way to negotiate but I'd say that since Maori tried negotiating respectfully with English settlers 200 years ago and were treated to vile abuse, their descendants feel no obligation now to conduct themselves with much decorum towards these English.
Hurt people hurt. For generations.
This cloak meant nothing to these people for a hundred years and now that it's been valued in monetary terms they no longer care to return it to Ngāti Maniapoto. It means money to them, nothing else.
What about others like those with endemitriosis? – just affects women. Or Chronic Fatigue Syndrome – they're too tired to get up and do something for themselves, No cancer is the in-disease at the present.
It was labour party election policy to establish a new 'agency' Look it up
Maybe cancer is the 'in disease' because it has in some instances high death rates compared to your ridiculous 'chronic fatigue syndrome' ( Is there even a established treatment or new medication that can be funded – didnt think so)
Those of us who have cancers would prefer it not to be the in-disease 🙂
I have a resection due in ten days, so I have a stake in the matter. My fourth diagnosis so far. It does have an emotional component for many people and I can see that others with life threatening and serious diseases would feel the same about their particular affliction.
Money does help. Last night I attended a support group meeting of fellow sufferers and partners. One man has a three monthly drug to take. He saw the price tag once. $1003 for one dose. Effective though. A good man and husband is kept alive and functioning by the state's expenditure.
Is it possible that someone who has had cancer can understand that others are aching for assistance, who are not faced with a terminal disease. Such a lot of cancer sufferers wish to have a longer life without consideration of the cost. They don't want to die, they don't want to pay out their own money to buy the expensive nostrums, and they don't care that the country already is not providing basic services for young needy people.
Perhaps we should have a voucher system, a lifetime allowance with a few allowances for rare cases. And age needs to become of importance. Once you are over 70? If not then, what would be reasonable, 75, 80? And then palliative care only.
Thanks for the response, greywarshark. This is a difficult issue, not because I have again an operable cancer, but because it gets into issues such as you have raised about age, whether we should countenance triage with age as a consideration, use of available resources with a voucher system to restrict overuse of resources, and more assistance to people with non-terminal but needed services.
Firstly, I reject the ageism. I am about to turn 70 but a form of selectivity based on age is a very dangerous notion considering what else may be used as a criterion like mental health, cretinism, genetic disorders, putative contributions to society, membership of social outgroups based on ethnicity, lifestyles, religion, immigration status. You see where this can lead?
I also reject your assertion that older people don't care about provision of services to needy young people. That is also ageist, wrong and unworthy.
I reject your assertion that they don't want to pay out of their own money for what you dismiss as 'nostrums', which is defined as "a medicine prepared by an unqualified person, especially one that is not considered effective."
greywarshark, your style of argument is very difficult to wish to continue with. I thank you for your response but earnestly ask that you full consider how you argue and what you are actually espousing.
I understand that you are arguing for a group either young or missing out in your view on adequate services and treatment. If you have someone in that situation, then I feel for you.
There are other answers than dumping on other groups.
A huge amount of what we argue about concerns allocation of resources.
The resources are there. Do we want to do this or do that? Defence or health? Bailouts for failed businesses or education? Tax breaks or prison reform? Support for films, world rugby and yachting cups or mental health?
Maybe there is still not enough money. And consider that old folk have children and grandchildren that they wish the best for. And vice versa. I am unhappy to see this discussion descend into an "us versus them" scenario.
Better that we promote our causes, acknowledge the shortfalls and discuss how we best justly allocate our resources based on reason, actual need and fairness.
Are we getting value for money out of our parliamentarians (from all parties)?
Or do we pay them too much?
The PM currently gets about nine times the average wage. While others receive less, they still receive more than the average worker.
And considering the poor state of the nation (and not just of late) is paying them so much really attracting quality representation?
Moreover, is paying them so much (putting them in the top one per cent of income earners) a problem (as in, with high incomes as such, so many of them are now out of touch with your average voter) thus continually fail to improve life for the majority?
Is it long past time we reset (lower) the incomes of our MPs?
The Chairman, I'll tell you just one story I know to be true. A former MP had two terms in a marginal seat. The night he lost the seat someone burned down the barn on a little farmlet he had. No employer would give this former MP a job. He had to subsist on his farmlet. He was generous with his own money whilst an MP. I know.
There are risks involved in being an MP. It's a hard life. A British MP was murdered, remember.
Tne last point I make is one I made to Geoffrey Palmer many years ago. We pay our MPs, judges etc well to lessen the threat of corruption and bribery. It is one of the fair prices of democracy.
So we are paying them exorbitant amounts of danger money? When others (such as police officers) in dangerous jobs aren't paid nowhere near as much.
As for averting the potential for corruption, some would argue that's largely a fail. Moreover, we can and should better police that.
[Attributing words, feelings, emotions, beliefs, or motives to other commenters does not make for a constructive debate. If you feel the need to make assumptions, you must check these before you take them as a given. Please pay close attention to mac1’s first sentence in his response @ 14.1.1.1 to you – Incognito]
I think you have taken one part of what I said, exaggerated it hugely, and attributed to me beliefs that I do not have.
To respond to your point re corruption, yes we need to have and I believe do have sufficient safeguards regarding police and the judiciary.
But, paying well enough that there is no temptation to augment the income with a little under-counter extra is a good strategy. Better than paying very good salaries to incorrupt guardians to oversee our guardian police, judiciary and MPs because if the guardians of the guardians are corruptible through insufficient financial independence, then we're back worse than when we started. Whew!
There are risks involved in being an MP. It's a hard life. A British MP was murdered, remember.
The above quote were your words.
Therefore, I asked (not exaggerated it hugely and attributed to your beliefs) if we are paying them exorbitant amounts of danger money?
Which you have yet to clarify.
But, paying well enough that there is no temptation to augment the income with a little under-counter extra is a good strategy.
If our policing of this was/is fully robust we wouldn't require this strategy.
Moreover, regardless how much we pay our MP's they could still be open to corruption as those (affluent multinational corporations for argument sake) that wanted to bribe them would merely offer them more to sway them.
Therefore, it really falls down to how well this type of corruption is policed.
I don't think the salaries are particularly exhorbitant. It's an important job with significant responsibilities, and for every one who walks into a highly paid lobbying or directorship job related to their political life, there are several who simply go back to their homes and former careers.
And yes, there is a reputational (and sometimes physical) risk associated with the job.
Should they be paid more than cops or whatever? I think a better equivalence would be between politicians and upper management. 120 people in charge of a $300 billion, 4.7million person organisation? From that perspective, they're cheap.
I don't think the salaries are particularly exhorbitant.
In comparison to the average worker, it's exorbitant.
In comparison to a CEO, not so much.
I'm not denying there is a risk to the job. But there are risks with many jobs that don't reward nowhere as much.
And just because they oversee a lot (money/population) doesn't mean they are doing a good job of it, thus they should be rewarded on performance on top of a far lower base salary, which takes into account how well those on the bottom are impacted from their decisions/oversight.
I prefer pay-based performance; employer unions generally aren't too keen on performance-based pay.
“And then there’s the opposition. Where are they?
National has lost the CGT as an attack weapon against the Government – they’re going to have to pony up for a bit more than the great slushy machine scandal of 2019.
They should be all over Tomorrows Schools – why are National MP Nikki Kaye’s public meetings in school halls not getting more coverage or cut through? Why is her voice not louder?
What about NZ First’s view on Tomorrow’s Schools? Why are they so quiet on this? Are they keeping their powder dry until the last minute, much like they did on the CGT?
Another concern out of the discussion being flushed through the public domain currently is the focal points of conversation. Why are we talking about yet more increased bureaucracy, when we should be talking about teacher shortages, teacher churn, the ageing teaching cohort, lack of male teachers, teachers being under-paid.
What about the hefty union involvement in teaching? Union leaders blocking discussion around performance-based pay? Making good teachers feel as though demanding money based on productivity is criminal. Worse, ensuring under-performing teachers are a protected species.“
Let me put it another way: someone works 40hr/wk for $50k. Would you expect them to throw their hat in the ring, quit that permanent job for maybe three years on the same rate, mostly working longer hours based in another town, and bunging you in the public eye?
They are still paid rather well (albeit less) if they aren't re-elected.
Let me put it another way: someone works 40hr/wk for $50k. Would you expect them to throw their hat in the ring, quit that permanent job for maybe three years on the same rate, mostly working longer hours based in another town, and bunging you in the public eye?
On performance based pay they still have the opportunity to do a good job and be better compensated. Giving them the incentive to do better.
It's performance-based job retention. Judged by their employers, the electorate.
"Performance-based pay" is a stupid idea for anything that doesn't have clearly quantifiable benchmarks with simple inputs that are largely in the control of the worker. But it sounds good when applied to teachers and politicians, even if the people calling for it have no idea about how to implement it fairly both for the employee and the people the employee is supposed to serve.
Reading and thinking over the thread, I'm just getting fucked off. If we pay MPs fuckall, then only the rich can afford to be MPs. If we pay them an average wage, then no average worker would risk their livelihood or the family's income for precarious employment that has no financial advantage.
Not that you've stated how performance would be judged (or by whom), or the vague ballpark of payscales you'd like to see for politicians.
You're just, yet again, spouting right wing platitudes that serve only to make the rich more powerful and the poor more easy to get removed from the political system.
It's performance-based job retention. Judged by their employers, .
Unfortunately, the electorate (their employers) don't currently set or have any input on their salaries. Nor can the public fully dismiss them. Whether or not they are re-elected they are still employed in opposition. Unless of course they don't make that 5% threshold. Therefore, it's not really (albeit to a very limited extent) performance-based job retention.
I agree, clearly quantifiable benchmarks are vital in performance base pay. Hence, it's not suited to all work places/professions. However, I think we could make it work for politicians.
I disagree that only the rich would be able to afford to be an MP. As the base rate would be reasonable.
Moreover, it’s a privilege to serve the people. We should be seeking those that are not only capable but have a genuine passion and desire for it. Not those only seeking a huge salary. Additionally, there is little risk. The average wage is alright (albeit they would be getting above that) and the job is fairly secure. Even in opposition, one would be paid. On top of that, some like to travel and the down times (holidays/breaks) are rather generous. Making up for time away from home. And their pension scheme is good. It may not suit all, but not all are suited to every job. So I don't see any justification for your anger.
Not that you've stated how performance would be judged (or by whom), or the vague ballpark of payscales you'd like to see for politicians.
That would be up for public debate, after all, we are their employers.
I agree, clearly quantifiable benchmarks are vital in performance base pay. Hence, it's not suited to all work places/professions. However, I think we could make it work for politicians.
How? Why do you think that? Every quanta for a politician I can think of is either easily rortable or doesn't reflect quality of performance.
And the public does get to dismiss them every three years.
I disagree that only the rich would be able to afford to be an MP. As the base rate would be reasonable.
Reasonable for a permanent average job. Not for someone to risk their family's livelihood on by quitting steady, permanent employment. That's why it would be a folly for the rich, not a realistic proposition for the average person.
I’m angry because I think you should know this, whether you are genuinely left wing or a tory in disguise.
Reading and thinking over the thread, I'm just getting fucked off. If we pay MPs fuckall, then only the rich can afford to be MPs.
Currently, once one becomes an MP they become one of the elite (the rich) hence part of the problem we need to solve.
And the public does get to dismiss them every three years.
Not if they merely end up in opposition, thus still on the payroll.
How? Why do you think that?
Glad you asked. By further empowering voters.
Being an MP is a extremely unique occupation. As in, your employer is all of us.
Therefore, I suggest along with the public having input on their base rate, we should also be given the opportunity to determine their performance rate. This could be done every three years at election.
The public could/should be allowed to have input in setting a performance scale range and decide on how they individually feel the Government/MP's have performed. Giving the Government/MP's a further incentive to better work for the majority.
If we pay MPs fuckall, then only the rich can afford to be MPs.
Currently, once one becomes an MP they become one of the elite (the rich) hence part of the problem we need to solve.
That doesn't address the point I raised.
And the public does get to dismiss them every three years.
Not if they merely end up in opposition, thus still on the payroll.
Which they can only do if they maintain the support of their electorate or their party. Otherwise, they're out.
Therefore, I suggest along with the public having input on their base rate, we should also be given the opportunity to determine their performance rate. This could be done every three years at election.
🙄
How? You're not actually stating a position.
In today's gig economy, not many are lucky enough to have a permanent secure job. Moreover, if one enters parliament via Labour or National their employment is largely secure by either being in Government or in opposition, thus on the public payroll.
Not for someone to risk their family's livelihood on by quitting steady, permanent employment.
In today's gig economy, not many are lucky enough to have a permanent secure job. Moreover, if one enters parliament via Labour or National their employment is largely secure by either being in Government or in opposition, thus on the public payroll.
If MP's need lots of money to refrain from unethical or corrupt behavior, then I think they are not the sort of people we need in Parliament.
Obviously, having some of the highest MP salaries in the Western world, has failed in this regard. With many instances of unethical and dis honest behavior.
Salaries do make it affordable for normal people to be in Parliament. Before MP 's were paid, Parliament was almost exclusively idle absentee landowners.
I don't see why they should be paid more than a school senior teacher, however.
Pensions commensurate with those paid to military personnel would be more appropriate than the current fortune.
The other problem is the make up of Parliament. A distinct lack of tradespeople for one. And way to many lawyers and failed businessmen.
In the grand scheme of things, the money is a drop in the ocean. Many public servants are paid more.
The role needs to be something capable people aspire to. Spending weeks away from home and pulling a living wage would result in representation that would have you posting non-stop.
Chairman, I think if you lived in The Garden of Eden you'd spend your time lodging complaints. "Dear God, I saw a weed amongst the Lavender yesterday."
I'm sorry you find living in New Zealand such a grind. I don't suppose it's going to make you feel much better but I love it.
However, it's doesn't change the reality of the stats – i.e. the rich are getting richer as more people are queuing for food and hardship grants, while a growing number are sleeping rough.
Ask them if they think politicians are value for money and working hard for them.
It's underwritten by "If you don't want me to top myself, give me money."
I think a better approach is…"Of course you have value and can make as much money as your imagination will allow you to. Come with me and I'll show you how."
As Mike King says, it's about our inner critics. We all have them, it's about where we're at with our inner critics. We need to learn to be there for those that are carrying obese inner critics. Poor, rich, brown, white, whatever.
Chairman, I think if you lived in The Garden of Eden you'd spend your time lodging complaints. "Dear God, I saw a weed amongst the Lavender yesterday."
The discussion isn't about me. Try addressing the points I made.
Not all are doing badly, The rich are getting richer.
And some may argue (which I am) that this comes down to (in part) because of policy made by politicians that are out of touch with the needs of the majority.
Additionally, re mac1's claim re threats being made on politicians, perhaps they wouldn't be threaten as much if they better represented the majority and not the elite (like them) getting richer .
I think The Chairman's problems with NZ would be all fixed if the government gave him an extra $1000 a week. I think it's more about you than you acknowledge.
The government is never going to make anyone well off Chairman. Those that want to be comfortable will need to make their own arrangements.
I think The Chairman's problems with NZ would be all fixed if the government gave him an extra $1000 a week. I think it's more about you than you acknowledge.
Again, it's not about me. Try again.
The government is never going to make anyone well off Chairman
Well, no CGT sure helps property flippers build their wealth. And don't they (a number of politicians) along with their high incomes have property investment?
Geez, you seem very concerned about other peoples' money. How much have you got?
It sort of is about you. It's you that is perpetually disgruntled. I'm cranking snapper and singing 3 chord anthems at the pub.
I'm quick to poke finger at a politician in here, but life in NZ? I don't slag NZ, I love living in New Zealand.
You seem to be having a crappy time of it Chair. You care too much to be a mere observer. I fear the shortcomings you highlight are more to do with your poison ivy coloured glasses than the targets you're quick to zero in on.
But hey, this is the sort of conversation we should have mano on mano. You need a reboot from someone you love….Unless you aspire to be known as the perpetually negative person that is an expert at finding fault and useless at identifying solutions….nobody wants to be that guy.
Life in NZ doesn't suck any where near as much as you would have us believe.
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Hi,Today I mainly want to share some of your thoughts about the recent piece I wrote about success and failure, and the forces that seemingly guide our lives. But first, a quick bit of housekeeping: I am doing a Webworm popup in Los Angeles on Saturday May 11 at 2pm. ...
It is hard to see what Melissa Lee might have done to “save” the media. National went into the election with no public media policy and appears not to have developed one subsequently. Lee claimed that she had prepared a policy paper before the election but it had been decided ...
Open access notablesIce acceleration and rotation in the Greenland Ice Sheet interior in recent decades, Løkkegaard et al., Communications Earth & Environment:In the past two decades, mass loss from the Greenland ice sheet has accelerated, partly due to the speedup of glaciers. However, uncertainty in speed derived from satellite products ...
Buzz from the Beehive A statement from Children’s Minister Karen Chhour – yet to be posted on the Government’s official website – arrived in Point of Order’s email in-tray last night. It welcomes the High Court ruling on whether the Waitangi Tribunal can demand she appear before it. It does ...
Mr Bombastic:Ironically, the media the academic experts wanted is, in many ways, the media they got. In place of the tyrannical editors of yesteryear, advancing without fear or favour the interests of the ruling class; the New Zealand news media of today boasts a troop of enlightened journalists dedicated to ...
It's hard times try to make a livingYou wake up every morning in the unforgivingOut there somewhere in the cityThere's people living lives without mercy or pityI feel good, yeah I'm feeling fineI feel better then I have for the longest timeI think these pills have been good for meI ...
In 1974, the US Supreme Court issued its decision in United States v. Nixon, finding that the President was not a King, but was subject to the law and was required to turn over the evidence of his wrongdoing to the courts. It was a landmark decision for the rule ...
Every day now just seems to bring in more fresh meat for the grinder.In their relentlessly ideological drive to cut back on the “excessive bloat” (as they see it) of the previous Labour-led government, on the mountains of evidence accumulated in such a short period of time do not ...
This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Megan Valére SosouMarket gardening site of the Itchèléré de Itagui agricultural cooperative in Dassa-Zoumè (Image credit: Megan Valère Sossou) For the residents of Dassa-Zoumè, a city in the West African country of Benin, choosing between drinking water and having enough ...
Buzz from the Beehive Melissa Lee – as may be discerned from the screenshot above – has not been demoted for doing something seriously wrong as Minister of ...
Morning in London Mother hugs beloved daughter outside the converted shoe factory in which she is living.Afternoon in London Travelling writer takes himself and his wrist down to A&E, just to be sure. Read more ...
Labour is calling for the Government to urgently rethink its coalition commitment to restart live animal exports, Labour animal welfare spokesperson Rachel Boyack said. ...
Today’s Financial Stability Report has once again highlighted that poverty and deep inequality are political choices - and this Government is choosing to make them worse. ...
The Green Party is calling on the Government to do more for our households in most need as unemployment rises and the cost of living crisis endures. ...
Unemployment is on the rise and it’s only going to get worse under this Government, Labour finance spokesperson Barbara Edmonds said. Stats NZ figures show the unemployment rate grew to 4.3 percent in the March quarter from 4 percent in the December quarter. “This is the second rise in unemployment ...
The New Zealand Labour Party welcomes the entering into force of the European Union and New Zealand free trade agreement. This agreement opens the door for a huge increase in trade opportunities with a market of 450 million people who are high value discerning consumers of New Zealand goods and ...
The National-led Government continues its fiscal jiggery pokery with its Pharmac announcement today, Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall says. “The government has increased Pharmac funding but conceded it will only make minimal increases in access to medicine”, said Ayesha Verrall “This is far from the bold promises made to fund ...
This afternoon’s interim Waitangi Tribunal report must be taken seriously as it affects our most vulnerable children, Labour children’s spokesperson Willow-Jean Prime. ...
Te Pāti Māori are demanding the New Zealand Government support an international independent investigation into mass graves that have been uncovered at two hospitals on the Gaza strip, following weeks of assault by Israeli troops. Among the 392 bodies that have been recovered, are children and elderly civilians. Many of ...
Our two-tiered system for veterans’ support is out of step with our closest partners, and all parties in Parliament should work together to fix it, Labour veterans’ affairs spokesperson Greg O’Connor said. ...
Stripping two Ministers of their portfolios just six months into the job shows Christopher Luxon’s management style is lacking, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said. ...
Tonight’s court decision to overturn the summons of the Children’s Minister has enabled the Crown to continue making decisions about Māori without evidence, says Te Pāti Māori spokesperson for Children, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi. “The judicial system has this evening told the nation that this government can do whatever they want when ...
It appears Nicola Willis is about to pull the rug out from under the feet of local communities still dealing with the aftermath of last year’s severe weather, and local councils relying on funding to build back from these disasters. ...
The Government is making short-sighted changes to the Resource Management Act (RMA) that will take away environmental protection in favour of short-term profits, Labour’s environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said today. ...
Labour welcomes the release of the report into the North Island weather events and looks forward to working with the Government to ensure that New Zealand is as prepared as it can be for the next natural disaster. ...
The Labour Party has called for the New Zealand Government to recognise Palestine, as a material step towards progressing the two-State solution needed to achieve a lasting peace in the region. ...
Some of our country’s most important work, stopping the sexual exploitation of children and violent extremism could go along with staff on the frontline at ports and airports. ...
The Government’s Fast Track Approvals Bill will give projects such as new coal mines a ‘get out of jail free’ card to wreak havoc on the environment, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said today. ...
The government's decision to reintroduce Three Strikes is a destructive and ineffective piece of law-making that will only exacerbate an inherently biased and racist criminal justice system, said Te Pāti Māori Justice Spokesperson, Tākuta Ferris, today. During the time Three Strikes was in place in Aotearoa, Māori and Pasifika received ...
Cuts to frontline hospital staff are not only a broken election promise, it shows the reckless tax cuts have well and truly hit the frontline of the health system, says Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall. ...
The Green Party has joined the call for public submissions on the fast-track legislation to be extended after the Ombudsman forced the Government to release the list of organisations invited to apply just hours before submissions close. ...
New Zealand’s good work at reducing climate emissions for three years in a row will be undone by the National government’s lack of ambition and scrapping programmes that were making a difference, Labour Party climate spokesperson Megan Woods said today. ...
More essential jobs could be on the chopping block, this time Ministry of Education staff on the school lunches team are set to find out whether they're in line to lose their jobs. ...
Te Pāti Māori is disgusted at the confirmation that hundreds are set to lose their jobs at Oranga Tamariki, and the disestablishment of the Treaty Response Unit. “This act of absolute carelessness and out of touch decision making is committing tamariki to state abuse.” Said Te Pāti Māori Oranga Tamariki ...
The Government is trying to bring in a law that will allow Ministers to cut corners and kill off native species, Labour environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said. ...
Cancelling urgently needed new Cook Strait ferries and hiking the cost of public transport for many Kiwis so that National can announce the prospect of another tunnel for Wellington is not making good choices, Labour Transport Spokesperson Tangi Utikere said. ...
A laundry list of additional costs for Tāmaki Makarau Auckland shows the Minister for the city is not delivering for the people who live there, says Labour Auckland Issues spokesperson Shanan Halbert. ...
Te Pāti Māori co-leader Rawiri Waititi, and Mema Paremata mō Tāmaki-Makaurau, Takutai Tarsh Kemp, will travel to the Gold Coast to strengthen ties with Māori in Australia next week (15-21 April). The visit, in the lead-up to the 9th Australian National Kapa haka Festival, will be an opportunity for both ...
The Green Party has today launched a step-by-step guide to help New Zealanders make their voice heard on the Government’s democracy dodging and anti-environment fast track legislation. ...
From today, passengers travelling internationally from Auckland Airport will be able to keep laptops and liquids in their carry-on bags for security screening thanks to new technology, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Creating a more efficient and seamless travel experience is important for holidaymakers and businesses, enabling faster movement through ...
People with an interest in the health of Northland’s marine ecosystems are invited to a public meeting to discuss how to deal with kina barrens, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones will lead the discussion, which will take place on Friday, 10 May, at Awanui Hotel in ...
Kiwi exporters are $100 million better off today with the NZ EU FTA entering into force says Trade Minister Todd McClay. “This is all part of our plan to grow the economy. New Zealand's prosperity depends on international trade, making up 60 per cent of the country’s total economic activity. ...
There are heartening signs that the extractive sector is once again becoming an attractive prospect for investors and a source of economic prosperity for New Zealand, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. “The beginnings of a resurgence in extractive industries are apparent in media reports of the sector in the past ...
The return of the historic Ō-Rākau battle site to the descendants of those who fought there moved one step closer today with the first reading of Te Pire mō Ō-Rākau, Te Pae o Maumahara / The Ō-Rākau Remembrance Bill. The Bill will entrust the 9.7-hectare battle site, five kilometres west ...
Energy Minister Simeon Brown has announced 25 new high-speed EV charging hubs along key routes between major urban centres and outlined the Government’s plan to supercharge New Zealand’s EV infrastructure. The hubs will each have several chargers and be capable of charging at least four – and up to 10 ...
The coalition Government will not proceed with the previous Government’s plans to regulate residential property managers, Housing Minister Chris Bishop says. “I have written to the Chairperson of the Social Services and Community Committee to inform him that the Government does not intend to support the Residential Property Managers Bill ...
The Government has announced an independent review into the disability support system funded by the Ministry of Disabled People – Whaikaha. Disability Issues Minister Louise Upston says the review will look at what can be done to strengthen the long-term sustainability of Disability Support Services to provide disabled people and ...
Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith has attended the Universal Periodic Review in Geneva and outlined the Government’s plan to restore law and order. “Speaking to the United Nations Human Rights Council provided us with an opportunity to present New Zealand’s human rights progress, priorities, and challenges, while responding to issues and ...
The Government and Rotorua Lakes Council are committed to working closely together to end the use of contracted emergency housing motels in Rotorua. Associate Minister of Housing (Social Housing) Tama Potaka says the Government remains committed to ending the long-term use of contracted emergency housing motels in Rotorua by the ...
Trade Minister Todd McClay heads overseas today for high-level trade talks in the Gulf region, and a key OECD meeting in Paris. Mr McClay will travel to Riyadh to meet with counterparts from Saudi Arabia and the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC). “New Zealand’s goods and services exports to the Gulf region ...
Education Minister Erica Stanford has outlined six education priorities to deliver a world-leading education system that sets Kiwi kids up for future success. “I’m putting ambition, achievement and outcomes at the heart of our education system. I want every child to be inspired and engaged in their learning so they ...
The new NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) App is a secure ‘one stop shop’ to provide the services drivers need, Transport Minister Simeon Brown and Digitising Government Minister Judith Collins say. “The NZTA App will enable an easier way for Kiwis to pay for Vehicle Registration and Road User Charges (RUC). ...
Whānau with tamariki growing up in emergency housing motels will be prioritised for social housing starting this week, says Associate Housing Minister Tama Potaka. “Giving these whānau a better opportunity to build healthy stable lives for themselves and future generations is an essential part of the Government’s goal of reducing ...
Racing Minister Winston Peters has paid tribute to an icon of the industry with the recent passing of Dave O’Sullivan (OBE). “Our sympathies are with the O’Sullivan family with the sad news of Dave O’Sullivan’s recent passing,” Mr Peters says. “His contribution to racing, initially as a jockey and then ...
Assalaamu alaikum, greetings to you all. Eid Mubarak, everyone! I want to extend my warmest wishes to you and everyone celebrating this joyous occasion. It is a pleasure to be here. I have enjoyed Eid celebrations at Parliament before, but this is my first time joining you as the Minister ...
Associate Health Minister David Seymour has announced Pharmac’s largest ever budget of $6.294 billion over four years, fixing a $1.774 billion fiscal cliff. “Access to medicines is a crucial part of many Kiwis’ lives. We’ve committed to a budget allocation of $1.774 billion over four years so Kiwis are ...
Hon Paula Bennett has been appointed as member and chair of the Pharmac board, Associate Health Minister David Seymour announced today. "Pharmac is a critical part of New Zealand's health system and plays a significant role in ensuring that Kiwis have the best possible access to medicines,” says Mr Seymour. ...
Hundreds of New Zealand families affected by Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder (FASD) will benefit from a new Government focus on prevention and treatment, says Health Minister Dr Shane Reti. “We know FASD is a leading cause of preventable intellectual and neurodevelopmental disability in New Zealand,” Dr Reti says. “Every day, ...
Regional Development Minister Shane Jones today attended the official opening of Kaikohe’s new $14.7 million sports complex. “The completion of the Kaikohe Multi Sports Complex is a fantastic achievement for the Far North,” Mr Jones says. “This facility not only fulfils a long-held dream for local athletes, but also creates ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters’ engagements in Türkiye this week underlined the importance of diplomacy to meet growing global challenges. “Returning to the Gallipoli Peninsula to represent New Zealand at Anzac commemorations was a sombre reminder of the critical importance of diplomacy for de-escalating conflicts and easing tensions,” Mr Peters ...
Ambassador Millar, Burgemeester, Vandepitte, Excellencies, military representatives, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen – good morning and welcome to this sacred Anzac Day dawn service. It is an honour to be here on behalf of the Government and people of New Zealand at Buttes New British Cemetery, Polygon Wood – a deeply ...
Distinguished guests - It is an honour to return once again to this site which, as the resting place for so many of our war-dead, has become a sacred place for generations of New Zealanders. Our presence here and at the other special spaces of Gallipoli is made ...
Mai ia tawhiti pamamao, te moana nui a Kiwa, kua tae whakaiti mai matou, ki to koutou papa whenua. No koutou te tapuwae, no matou te tapuwae, kua honoa pumautia. Ko nga toa kua hinga nei, o te Waipounamu, o te Ika a Maui, he okioki tahi me o ...
Paul Goldsmith will take on responsibility for the Media and Communications portfolio, while Louise Upston will pick up the Disability Issues portfolio, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon announced today. “Our Government is relentlessly focused on getting New Zealand back on track. As issues change in prominence, I plan to adjust Ministerial ...
Recreational catch limits will be reduced in areas of Fiordland and the Chatham Islands to help keep those fisheries healthy and sustainable, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. The lower recreational daily catch limits for a range of finfish and shellfish species caught in the Fiordland Marine Area and ...
Energy Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed an important milestone in New Zealand’s hydrogen future, with the opening of the country’s first network of hydrogen refuelling stations in Wiri. “I want to congratulate the team at Hiringa Energy and its partners K one W one (K1W1), Mitsui & Co New Zealand ...
The coalition Government is delivering on its commitment to improve resource management laws and give greater certainty to consent applicants, with a Bill to amend the Resource Management Act (RMA) expected to be introduced to Parliament next month. RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop has today outlined the first RMA Amendment ...
Overseas models for regulating the oil and gas sector, including their decommissioning regimes, are being carefully scrutinised as a potential template for New Zealand’s own sector, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. The Coalition Government is focused on rebuilding investor confidence in New Zealand’s energy sector as it looks to strengthen ...
Emergency Management and Recovery Minister Mark Mitchell has today released the Report of the Government Inquiry into the response to the North Island Severe Weather Events. “The report shows that New Zealand’s emergency management system is not fit-for-purpose and there are some significant gaps we need to address,” Mr Mitchell ...
Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith is today travelling to Europe where he’ll update the United Nations Human Rights Council on the Government’s work to restore law and order. “Attending the Universal Periodic Review in Geneva provides us with an opportunity to present New Zealand’s human rights progress, priorities, and challenges, while ...
Associate Agriculture Minister, Mark Patterson, formally reopened the world’s largest wool processing facility today in Awatoto, Napier, following a $50 million rebuild and refurbishment project. “The reopening of this facility will significantly lift the economic opportunities available to New Zealand’s wool sector, which already accounts for 20 per cent of ...
Hon Andrew Bayly, Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing At the Southland Otago Regional Engineering Collective (SOREC) Summit, 18 April, Dunedin Ngā mihi nui, Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Ko Whanganui aho Good Afternoon and thank you for inviting me to open your summit today. I am delighted ...
The Government is delivering on its commitment to bring back the Three Strikes legislation, Associate Justice Minister Nicole McKee announced today. “Our Government is committed to restoring law and order and enforcing appropriate consequences on criminals. We are making it clear that repeat serious violent or sexual offending is not ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has today announced four new diplomatic appointments for New Zealand’s overseas missions. “Our diplomats have a vital role in maintaining and protecting New Zealand’s interests around the world,” Mr Peters says. “I am pleased to announce the appointment of these senior diplomats from the ...
New Zealand is contributing NZ$7 million to support communities affected by severe food insecurity and other urgent humanitarian needs in Ethiopia and Somalia, Foreign Minister Rt Hon Winston Peters announced today. “Over 21 million people are in need of humanitarian assistance across Ethiopia, with a further 6.9 million people ...
Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage Paul Goldsmith is congratulating Mataaho Collective for winning the Golden Lion for best participant in the main exhibition at the Venice Biennale. "Congratulations to the Mataaho Collective for winning one of the world's most prestigious art prizes at the Venice Biennale. “It is good ...
The Government is reforming financial services to improve access to home loans and other lending, and strengthen customer protections, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly and Housing Minister Chris Bishop announced today. “Our coalition Government is committed to rebuilding the economy and making life simpler by cutting red tape. We are ...
“China remains a strong commercial opportunity for Kiwi exporters as Chinese businesses and consumers continue to value our high-quality safe produce,” Trade and Agriculture Minister Todd McClay says. Mr McClay has returned to New Zealand following visits to Beijing, Harbin and Shanghai where he met ministers, governors and mayors and engaged in trade and agricultural events with the New ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has completed a successful trip to Singapore, Thailand and the Philippines, deepening relationships and capitalising on opportunities. Mr Luxon was accompanied by a business delegation and says the choice of countries represents the priority the New Zealand Government places on South East Asia, and our relationships in ...
Responding to the long-awaited release of judges’ special allowances, including free air travel and hotels for spouses, generous sabbaticals, and access to limousines, Taxpayers’ Union spokesman Alex Murphy said: “In what world does your employer ...
Analysis - The United States has unveiled plans to boost the weapons trade with Australia and the UK, on the same day that Winston Peters is expected to sketch NZ's position on AUKUS. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Andrea Carson, Professor of Political Communication, Department of Politics, Media and Philosophy, La Trobe University Since Australia’s First Nations Voice to Parliament referendum in October 2023, diverse commentaries have sought to explain why it failed. But what does an analysis of media ...
Lawyers representing two iwi as well as the Māori Women’s Welfare League on Wednesday asked the Court of Appeal to overturn last week’s High Court decision on the Waitangi Tribunal’s decision to summons Children’s Minister Karen Chhour. The Tribunal is currently investigating the Government’s decision to repeal section 7AA of ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra The Albanese government will introduce legislation to ban deepfake pornography and provide more funding for the eSafety Commission to pilot age-assurance technologies. The contribution of internet sites to gender-based violence was one major issue ...
Average ordinary time hourly earnings, as measured by the Quarterly Employment Survey (QES), increased 5.2 percent in the year to the March 2024 quarter, according to figures released by Stats NZ today. Annual wage cost inflation, as measured by the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Dimitrios Salampasis, FinTech Capability Lead | Senior Lecturer, Emerging Technologies and FinTech, Swinburne University of Technology Clem Onojeghuo/Unsplash In the digital era, the job market is increasingly becoming a minefield – demanding and difficult to navigate. According to the Australian Bureau ...
As of the March 2024 quarter, we can now look back on 20 years of data related to youth not in employment, education, or training (NEET), as collected by the Household Labour Force Survey (HLFS), according to figures released by Stats NZ today. "The ...
Thousands of workers attended public events in Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch today to celebrate International Workers’ Day (May Day), but union representatives are urging caution and vigilance over the Government’s blatantly "anti-worker" ...
The seasonally adjusted unemployment rate was 4.3 percent in the March 2024 quarter, compared with 4.0 percent in the previous quarter, according to figures released by Stats NZ today. ...
The PSA is warning the Government that the sensitive information of New Zealanders held by various agencies will fall into the wrong hands if the latest round of proposed cuts goes ahead. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Talitha Best, Professor of Psychology, CQUniversity Australia Victoria Rodriguez/Unsplash How do sugar rushes work? – W.H, age nine, from Canberra What a terrific question W.H! Let’s explore this, starting with some of the basics. What is sugar? ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Karinna Saxby, Research Fellow, Melbourne Institute of Applied Economic and Social Research, The University of Melbourne MART PRODUCTION/Pexels Increasing income support could help keep women and children safe according to new work demonstrating strong links between financial insecurity and domestic violence. ...
ANALYSIS:By Olli Hellmann, University of Waikato When New Zealanders commemorate Anzac Day today on April 25, it’s not only to honour the soldiers who lost their lives in World War I and subsequent conflicts, but also to mark a defining event for national identity. The battle of Gallipoli against ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Mark A Gregory, Associate Professor, School of Engineering, RMIT University The telecommunications industry faces a major shakeup following the release of the post-incident report on last November’s 12-hour Optus outage. Telecommunications companies will have to share more information with customers during future ...
Welcome to The Spinoff Bookseller Confessional, in which we get to know Aotearoa’s booksellers. This week: Eden Denyer, bookseller at Unity Books Auckland.Weirdest question/request you’ve had on the shop floorA mother came in looking for anything we might have on Alaskan bison as that was her little boy’s ...
NZCTU Economist Craig Renney said new data released by Statistics New Zealand shows the need for Government to act now, with unemployment rising from 3.4% to 4.3%. ...
The outpouring of anger over Maiki Sherman’s hyperbolic presentation of this week’s ‘nightmare’ poll is itself an overreaction, argues Stewart Sowman-Lund. Politicians love nothing more than to pretend they don’t care about polls. This week, deputy prime minister Winston Peters said he didn’t give a “rat’s derriere” about a TVNZ ...
Asia Pacific Report Ngāti Kahungunu in Aotearoa New Zealand’s Hawkes Bay region has become the first indigenous Māori iwi (tribe) to sign a resolution calling for a “ceasefire in Palestine”, reports Te Ao Māori News. Reporter Te Aniwaniwa Paterson talked to Te Otāne Huata, who has been organising peace rallies ...
By Dale Luma in Port Moresby “We want grants and not concessional loans,” is the crisp message from Papua New Guinea businesses directly affected by the Black Wednesday looting four months ago. The businesses, which lost millions after the January 10 rioting and looting, say they need grants as part ...
Happy May Day. Join a union. Q: What’s worse than a staff break room where the only place to sit and have a cup of tea is on a teetering stack of old pornography magazines? A: Your boss replacing the magazine stacks with chairs that are “heartily encrusted with ...
By Koroi Hawkins, RNZ Pacific editor Former opposition leader Matthew Wale has been announced as the second prime ministerial candidate ahead of the election in Solomon Islands tomorrow. He will face off against former foreign affairs minister Jeremiah Manele, who was announced by the Coalition for National Unity and Transformation ...
We get but one birthday a year – why not make it last as long as possible by scheduling as many meals with friends and family as you can? This is an excerpt from our weekly food newsletter, The Boil Up. How do you celebrate your birthday? Do you celebrate at ...
A Koi Tū discussion paper released today proposes sweeping changes to New Zealand’s media industry. The principal’s key author, Gavin Ellis, explains how journalists have a key role to play in making others value their role in society. This is an abridged version of a piece first published on knightlyviews.com ...
The Government’s spending cuts are again targeting support for Māori with proposed reform of the agency charged with advising on Māori wellbeing and development. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Ian Douglas, Honorary Senior Lecturer, UNSW Aviation., UNSW Sydney The history of budget jet airlines in Australia is a long road littered with broken dreams. New entrants have consistently struggled to get a foothold. Low-cost carrier Bonza has just become the industry’s ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Rosalind Dixon, Director, Gilbert + Tobin Centre of Public Law, UNSW Sydney Australia is finally having a sustained conversation about violence against women and what we can do about it. It is more than time. Australian women and girls continue to experience ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Stephen Duckett, Honorary Enterprise Professor, School of Population and Global Health, and Department of General Practice and Primary Care, The University of Melbourne stockfour/Shutterstock Preliminary bulk billing data released this week shows a 2.1% rise in bulk billing up to March. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Samantha Schulz, Senior Lecturer, University of Adelaide Australia is once again grappling with how we can stop gendered violence in our country. Protests over the weekend show there is enormous community anger over the number of women who are dying and National ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Peter Martin, Visiting Fellow, Crawford School of Public Policy, Australian National University AnastasiaDudka/Shutterstock What if the government was doing everything it could to stop thieves making off with our money, except the one thing that could really work? That’s how it ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Erin Harrington, Senior Lecturer in English and Cultural Studies, University of Canterbury The Conversation It seems to be a time of old favourites. This month our experts have recommended two new seasons – the second season of Alone Australia (although ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jonti Horner, Professor (Astrophysics), University of Southern Queensland A bright Eta Aquariid meteor photobombed this photo of comet C/2020 F8 (SWAN) in May 2020.Jonti Horner Meteors – commonly known as shooting stars – can be seen on any night of the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Tim Flannery, Honorary fellow, The University of Melbourne Shutterstock Current concentrations of carbon dioxide (CO₂) in Earth’s atmosphere are unprecedented in human history. But CO₂ levels today, and those that might occur in coming decades, did occur millions of years ago. ...
Winston Peters has been keen to dismiss speculation on our involvement in Aukus but will give a speech tonight on the direction of our foreign policy, writes Anna Rawhiti-Connell in this excerpt from The Bulletin, The Spinoff’s morning news round-up. To receive The Bulletin in full each weekday, sign up here. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Patrick Usmar, Lecturer in Critical Media Literacies, Auckland University of Technology Getty Images With the coalition government’s ban of student mobile phones in New Zealand schools coming into effect this week, reaction has ranged from the sceptical (kids will just get ...
Hospitals around the country are not allowed to make a single hiring decision without the approval of Te Whatu Ora's head office, including for cleaners and administration staff. ...
A new report on protecting journalism and democracy in New Zealand recommends a levy be charged on global platforms like Facebook and Google to fund media firms undertaking public interest reporting. It also calls for the reinstatement of a powerful Broadcasting Commission to distribute public funding for journalism and other ...
On International Workers' Day, also known as May Day, the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions Te Kauae Kaimahi and the wider union movement are celebrating the proud history of the labour movement during a tough time for working people. ...
From bills to beards, a walk through the former Green co-leader’s time in politics. After close to a decade in politics, James Shaw is preparing to bid farewell to parliament. Tonight will see the former minister deliver his valedictory address, certain to be a speech filled with Shaw’s trademark wit ...
Two months ago, MPs unanimously voted to give themselves a week off in Efeso Collins’ honour. On Tuesday, most were too busy to give even an hour of their time. The day Fa’anānā Efeso Collins died, parliament felt different. In a building that operates at a breakneck pace, everyone stopped ...
India’s election involves hundreds of millions of people and is a months-long affair. Here’s how voting works and what’s at stake.The biggest-ever election in world history started on April 19, with more than 10% of the world’s population eligible to vote. Elections in India, the world’s most populous country ...
Opinion: A young Māori woman and her Pacific partner arrive at their local hospital by ambulance. She has gone into labour at just under 24 weeks, but the couple haven’t recognised the symptoms – and don’t know the risks of premature birth for their baby. By the time they arrive, ...
Behind closed doors, NZ First will be arguing fiercely against any watering down of the ministerial decision-making powers in the Bill The post Bishop backtracks after fast-track backlash appeared first on Newsroom. ...
Emotional scenes played out in the Invercargill courthouse on the first two days of the coronial inquest into the death of Gore toddler Lachlan Jones, in which the boy’s mother was accused of disposing of her son’s body. The second season of Newsroom’s award-nominated podcast The Boy in the Water ...
Opinion: The impression from the carpark is very inviting. The area is well fenced but barred so there is easy visibility of loved ones. Inside, the spaces are welcoming and clean and staff are friendly and clearly comfortable. I am greeted by ‘Kim’. She has worked here for three years, ...
After the Christchurch earthquake, the then-national civil defence boss compared his experience to “putting a team on the rugby field who have never ever played together before”. Now, eight years later – and following a damning inquiry into the emergency response of cyclones Gabrielle, Hale and the Auckland anniversary weekend floods – ...
“I had just come off the end of a major robbery case which I had been working on for six months when I got a call on the afternoon of September 1, 1992, that some remains had been found at a building site in Devonport, so I drove over with ...
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Very good points except theres no maybe about it:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/115396620/judith-collins-20-may-be-the-leader-national-need-to-take-on-jacindamania-in-2020
Pucky, did you see this article about your girl from a couple of days ago?
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2019/08/30/781560/judith-collins
I can't see how she could stay post-book, any version must deepen the already deep divisions and past behaviours the National Party are ignoring.
The article's author, Pucky?
* Brooke van Velden is a former Act Party candidate and political advisor in the office of Act Party leader David Seymour.
Oh dear!
*Current* staffer of Seymour, even. pffft
I did make the effort to read the piece and at the end, I noted the author's 'credentials'. The infamous quote from one Mandy Rice-Davies immediately sprung to mind.
Mr Melville's well-housed, well- warmed, and well-fed critic personified.
was there a 'well watered' ?
Since was previously with "Excreltium" was that a given
https://nz.linkedin.com/in/brookevanvelden
So ACT are going to terminally destabilise National to create a "Collins" party in the hope of a right wing nirvana.
This could be entertaining.
BVV has twitter that she is going to be writing for nzstuff and her opinions seen regularly in Sunday Star Times.
https://twitter.com/BrookevanVelden?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
I see really good opinions regularly on TS. What about some of the writers seeking jobs on these news outlets? Or will they only accept RWs or dedicated controversialists? Well we have those too. Go for it I reckon, do what you love doing and get paid for it.
She's speaking the truth, It's almost as if Gods own words are flowing through her
I've seen video of such happenings; filmed in Haiti. Very dramatic.
*sings “Do, do that voodoo, that you do, so well…”
By “She”, you meant Judith, right?
I thought he was talking about Greta.
stop the presses..! – an actite has penned a puff-piece about judith collins…
act supporters – all 0.5% of them – must e feeling very proud..
the rest of us can just shrug – and move on…
Opinion pieces that are penned by Mps staff seems to scraping the bottom of the barrel- wouldnt it normally be ghost written by BVV and appear under Seymours name.
Or is it the other way round and Seymour does some bullet points and his office writes it up, but Seymour is too scared of offending nationals big wigs such as Bridges, Bennett and co so hides behind his employee
Genetic engineering is not required when organic farming has the solutions, writes Philippa Jamieson.
"Former chief science adviser Sir Peter Gluckman has said that New Zealand could become a ''backwater'' if we don't loosen up our laws governing genetic engineering. The ODT editorial (19.8.19) also claimed we are ''in serious danger of becoming uncompetitive''.
On the contrary! We stand to gain by remaining GE-free, and even better, by transitioning towards organics. Demand for clean, green, GE-free, safe, healthy, ethical organic food is increasing year on year – around the world and here in Aotearoa New Zealand."
https://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/no-ge-needed-new-zealand?fbclid=IwAR3agtF9RZbn0H9BAt6J2IW_i3cyfNO94wEVhYHZkoKyPElyIPDzUX2kXxU
You're right there
A small country like ours could be a niche provider of good quality food
We're an island, we don't have the problems of continental borders We are uniquely positioned to take advantage of this preference in the market
And apart from all that economic blather primarily we could do it through our commitment to more natural farming. Genetic selection and breeding , yes, forceful splicing( a kind of rape of a plant's integrity) , no
Industry will use climate change as a lever to dislodge the organic argument around GE.
Good to see a rebuttal of Sir Peter Gluckman the scientist that Gnats love to love. I think John Key made some comment about specialist advisors – that for every gambit that the Left could produce, he could produce a different one from the Right. So it is all a battle for whoever will prevail, and the devil take the hindmost despite real outcomes that need precaution to prevent, or positive input to create and encourage.
John Key on Dr Mike Joy.
Key got away with comparing legal opinions – which are just etheria- and science which is more rigorous and has a defined process to become peer reviewed .
The closest example is a court judgement after the opinions and facts have been presented.
Given that she's an organic food industry lobbyist, "Well she would say that, wouldn't she?" I expect a GE industry lobbyist would take a different view.
She would and they would. It's a nuanced discussion, that of organically-grown food in relation to that which is not grown that way. Some human industries might have been better to have been left as theory, rather than pursued, by humans; "germ warfare" for example, and I wonder if there's a bona fide way of knowing, at the outset, whether any particular path is a wise one to follow, or not. Clearly arguments can be made and won, even though the results might ultimately be catastrophic. Is there a way to judge, in the early stages, the wisdom of such proposals? The GE proposals are some that are met with strong feelings of opposition by people such as Philippa; is she correct in her position? Is it just "reasoned debate" that can determine the suitable path to take? Are the views of indigenous peoples the true measure of such proposals? I think that needs exploring.
The precautionary principle seems a useful frame to judge emerging tech. Do we actually *need GE foods? I can't see any reason why we do. If some consider it a nice to have, let's work with the precautionary principle first. Should have applied that to dairy conversions too.
There are some quite useful possibilities that come with the technology – soybeans modified to synthesize lysine for example, a protein chiefly found in fish, the absence of which slows growth rates in a number of domestic animals.
Unfortunately the technology seems to have been first adopted by the ravening loons at Monsanto, so they went after terminator genes and "roundup readiness". The former is a fairly reasonable use, the latter two not worth taking chances for.
I agree that Monsanto has taken things to whole new heights. However the soybean example would be a decades long experiment until we get large long term studies. If we look at the fat hypothesis, we can see half a century now of bad science and worse public health response and despite the problems with the hypothesis being well known for a decade we're still not moving on changing.
I just don't think we are anywhere near close to being able to responsibly assess and manage GE tech in the food chain. Part of that is capitalism and Monsanto culture, but those dynamics are throughout society including science and medicine.
The lysine soybeans were done long ago – Big Ag twisted Monsanto's arm.
Actually I think it can be assessed responsibly without too much trouble, the difficulty is once you say yes proponents will try to bring in everything, a very undesirable tendency.
There is also the thing that plant geneticists are possible well paid skilled occupations for a sustainable future society. NZ used to be good at that stuff, even without these new technologies.
"Actually I think it can be assessed responsibly without too much trouble"
How?
An assessment of value versus risk, with a field trial imposition or exclusion for not meeting value minimums. So that a crop field tested for twenty years or so might be okayed for general release – if it has no complaints against it in that time.
The difficulty would be to create a system robust enough to remain operative under the reckless stupidity of the current opposition – and that would certainly be an almost insurmountable challenge.
crop tested 20 years for what? I'm not sure what you are assessing there.
@Weka
It's a catchall.
The field test is to reveal problems not anticipated in the design phase. So going back to the lysine soybeans – have they any cultural (ie are they invasive or do they cross fertilize to a problematic degree) or do they develop toxicity or provoke allergic responses. If twenty years say no, they're not so different from comparable non GE soybeans and need not be restricted.
Plants designed for high pesticide resistance or to resist insect pests by accumulating toxins might have to reach a higher standard. But for example the GMO designed to restore the American Chestnut does not seem to be problematic, and subject to a trial, might be released.
“have they any cultural (ie are they invasive or do they cross fertilize to a problematic degree) or do they develop toxicity or provoke allergic responses”
How do you assess provoking allergic responses? Or other health issues? It sounds good in theory, but we know that people already have various reactions to eating soy, and that food intolerances seem to be increasing and we don’t yet know why. Add to that that science isn’t *that good at assessing combined and culmulative effects, nor understanding the synergistic aspect of plants that has come about via natural selection and how that impacts on humans (eg what’s the relationship of lysine to the other amino acids and other components and processes in the plant?), and I’ll invoke the precautionary principle again.
What’s the point of the lysine manipulation?
The point of lysine is that stock that lack it in their diets have their growth constrained – it need only be about 0.5 or 1 %. Traditionally this shortfall was made up with fishmeal, but growing demand versus declining supply has made that very expensive, and it promotes 'kill everything' fishing habits. I'm not sure if it is used for salmon feeds or the cooked legume based fish feeds they've developed in Oz, but in principle it would be sensible.
Allergy testing is usually by scratch tests, there are well standardized protocols.
This from weka is a very well put piece of truth that should be absorbed in every brain cell by those positing that increased technology and experimentation of any sort is what we need to overcome all our present and future problems.
There is an interesting example coming up for consideration that perhaps we could look at and that is a new version of ryegrass that has been trialled for NZ (I understand) in the USA. Has every downside of its use been examined carefully and objectively? If we did decide to use it, would we have complete ownership of it? Or have we foregone that by not doing the trials ourselves. Can we trust the firm to maintain their integrity and commit themselves and their employees to handing back to us all our material and renounce any interest in it?
The main problem is the current separation of responsibility, of the people making the money, shareholders, and the people who end up paying for the fuckups, us!
Simply changing company law, so that those who profit from any technology, or any business activity, are jointly strictly liable personally under criminal law, with penalties commensurate with the costs, for any consequent damage, would stop a lot of enthusiasm for untested technology.
Monsanto would fast lose their enthusiasm for roundup, if they knew there is a certainty of having to prove dead bees wasn't them.
The precautionary principle seems a useful frame to judge emerging tech.
The precautionary principle is a handy tool for opposing the introduction of a new technology, because it demands the inventors prove a negative. It's not very useful outside of that context.
Do we actually *need GE foods?
Nope. But then, given that we made it through half a billion years of evolution without using any technology at all until the last hundred thousand, the same answer applies to all technology – from stone tools through to artificial intelligence.
That's not what I meant though. I mean us, now, in the middle of the post-industrial revolution. Some tech we need eg how to maintain nuclear reactors so they don't cause mass damage. We need cancer treatments. We need ways of growing food. We don't have a lot of alternatives for preventing nuclear fallout or cancer, we do have perfectly adequate alternatives to GE for food growing. If half the effort (science and political) went into that instead of GE, we'd be well on our way to reducing ag GHGs by now.
"The precautionary principle is a handy tool for opposing the introduction of a new technology, because it demands the inventors prove a negative. It's not very useful outside of that context."
You say that like it's a bad thing.
Requiring people to prove a negative is a bad thing, both in this particular instance and as a general principle.
not in this case. Proof of a negative isn't required. Pro-GE people might frame it like that but that misses the point of the precautionary principle. If there's reasonable grounds for caution because of the unknown nature of the proposal, then the inability to prove a negative is useful. It slows us down so we can make better decisions.
Still wondering it it might be easier/better to ask someone wise
who did you have in mind?
Someone uncivilised.
Someone who hasn't suffered a cultural "death-by-a-thousand-cuts".
Someone who knows plants in the way you might know a family-member.
Maybe someone long-passed. Perhaps such a person has left words that we can apply to this situation.
Anyone spring to your mind?
Wrong spot!
Opposition to GE is essentially religious in nature, so no amount of testing will ever be enough to convince opponents that the precautionary principle has been satisfied. I don't see a difference between that and asking people to prove a negative.
Opposition to GE is essentially religious in nature,
Rubbish.
Opposition to rubbish is essentially religious 🙂
"Opposition to GE is essentially religious in nature"
Oh bullshit. Those who opposed to GE actually understand what the process is and how the result is an organism that cannot be proven to be safe, as opposed to organisms that we've been consuming for thousands of years that have only been changed by natural or specific selection. And if you claim GE is the same as selection by trait you don't understand what Genetic Engineering is. Though the name should give you some clue.
Support of GE is likewise, religious.
So, how to make the decisions?
Consult the religious leaders?
Or ask someone not contaminated by any religion?
Support of GE is likewise, religious.
If we define "religious" so broadly as to make it a meaningless term, sure.
So, how to make the decisions?
Evidence and rational argument is always a pretty good start. A demand to prove a negative isn't.
I fully agree. But it can never be complete, conclusive, definitive, and absolute. Nor can it be the be-all-end-all. Nor can it nullify emotions. Nor can it decide moral dilemmas.
"If we define "religious" so broadly as to make it a meaningless term, sure."
Not everyone is religious, nor every world-view religious. We could find someone untainted, I'm sure.
"Evidence and rational argument is always a pretty good start. A demand to prove a negative isn't. "
Lets start with evidence and rational argument then. I don't demand that anyone prove a negative.
Bull. Any science that is carried out by people who want to make a profit from a technology should be treated with suspicion.
And the cost benefit ratio to the community should be assessed. Including the degree of risk if it turns out like the introduction of rabbits, down the track.
After enough testing to ensure that it is safe enough.
Not forgetting what companies did to farmers over patented crops.
There are also commercial reasons to remain GE free for export crops. There is a huge market around the world to people who don't want to be lab rats.
Incognito: I understand that. It's why evidence and rational argument is a good place to start, not the be-all and end-all.
Robert: if we start with evidence and rational argument, it's up to GE opponents to explain what harm they envisage from GE, not to issue an impossible demand for GE researchers to prove that no damage could possibly occur.
"Robert: if we start with evidence and rational argument, it's up to GE opponents to explain what harm they envisage from GE, not to issue an impossible demand for GE researchers to prove that no damage could possibly occur. "
I agree. Will you put forward your evidence and rational argument so we can have a discussion? It would be interesting to start with one simple claim/aspect, rather than a general one; much easier to contain the discussion and hopefully, reach agreement.
Robert: it would be simpler to start with one simple aspect if GE opponents were only opposed to particular individual instances of it and unopposed to it as a general principle, but that isn't the case. Blanket rejection of GE as a technology requires evidence and rational argument for that blanket rejection.
Don't you think that sellers of technology should show that it is safe.
We even have safety requirements for car manufacturers. Crop and pesticide developers, especially in the USA, are largely self regulated, with only the threat of individual law suits. As with tobacco, those take decades to affect profits enough to have any effect.
Don't you think that sellers of technology should show that it is safe.
I certainly do. Technology like this requires thorough testing in a rigorous regulatory environment. Which we have.
The flip side of that question is equally valid: don't you think that once thorough testing in a tightly-regulated environment shows a technology is safe, its use should be permitted?
to Robert at 2: " Demand for…..safe organic food is increasing etc" is why this great gran is (after early swim to keep fit enough to accomplish it) going to spend this gorgeous Dunedin day attending to my vegies and berries as have done for decades. wherever my home. Importantly, the taste of food fresh from the garden is inestimably better than almost anything from supermarket shelves, conveniently at hand and cheaper.
"Are the views of indigenous peoples* the true measure of such proposals? I think that needs exploring."
*Or great grans
to Robert at 2.3.1. : enjoyed the smile…..NB that this great gran has enjoyed home grown food since babyhood and knows her onions regarding development in GE. Had gardens for my classes for decades …..also taught about greenhouse gas threat as soon as was in science journals.
At last, a genuine prospect of undoing the damage Max Bradford did to NZ's electricity system: https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/115323041/loyal-customers-set-to-benefit-from-electricity-review-but-gas-users-may-pay-more
You forgot one part about 'forced separation' of Telecom and Chorus
National government paid around $950 mill to buy 45% of Chorus AND provided 'soft loans' for Chorus to build Fibre street network PLUS tax payer funded installs ( $2000 each ?) from street backbone to ‘ fibre terminating unit’ inside the house.
There is a multi billion dollar public funded utility in controlled by a private business.
I always thought years ago that when Telecom was sold off ( so taxpayers wouldnt have to bail it out or fund its capital for expansion) that one day we would have to 'buy it back' – like we did with Kiwirail and Air NZ.
And by various means , we paid for it but didnt get the ownership !
Steven Joyce, negotiating genius. Even with Cunliffe having done the legwork on separation, his successor still managed to transfer more state money into private pockets to sweeten the deal.
Treasury must have had a seizure when they were asked to evaluate the proposal, dont recall much at the time .
Not only that but the whole fibre broadband tender from Chorus at the time was , as they say, 'non conforming' which it meant they didnt meet the terms and conditions. But they jacked up a backroom deal with Joyce with a few titbits for others to give a semblance of open tender.
Curran has been dragged over the coals for a meeting or two with Carol Hirschfeld and yet Joyce was in deals 'off the calendar' worth 'billions' and nothing in the media ( mostly because the main media journalists were 'his chooks' who were regularly fed inside stories- except the likes of Road Oram who were forced out)
Indeed, Dukeofurl. Nor did we (taxpayers) get the return, which of course were privatised.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/102708888/way-to-be-cleared-for-big-electricity-players-to-prey-on-lowincome-households
Don't hold your breath. It doesn't look like much will change out of all this.
Am I the only one who wishes Martyn Bradbury would shut the f*** up about everything 'woke'. He honestly has some serious obsession issues in that regard.
could someone please tell me what 'woke' is/means..?
and as a leftwing vegan – who doesn't use alcohol – but who does smoke pot..
am i automatically one of these 'woke'-people..?
i fear i might be – so need some clarification here..
(i feel a t-shirt coming on – 'am i woke?'..)
Has anyone made the word play linking "woke" with "Ewok"?
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=woke
One NZ synonym may be 'wanker'.
(from the definition)
'The act of being very pretentious about how much you care about a social issue'
so it can be used as an insult/attack weapon by say – unreconstructed flesh-eaters – against – say – militant-vegans..?
so it's a term used by reactionaries..?
'Reactionaries' is the polite term. The more appropriate expression has just one syllable and rhymes with 'mix'.
has bradbury turned the ideological corner – and met his rightwing self coming the other way..?
he really is putting the 'ok' in 'woke'-bashing..
No, Bradbury's always been like this, or at least in the years I've seen him online. It's just another version of his anti-identity politics views. Work culture in NZ needs critiquing but he's not the person to do it because he's not very good at listening and just ends up polarising the left further.
Woke comes out of Black culture in the US, where it has a different meaning and usage.
“I’m a woke bloke woke”
No you're not and he hangs out with some very funny people too.
Just about everything, really.
And haven't we seen similar lines here recently.
https://www.salon.com/2019/08/30/misogyny-meet-hypocrisy-climate-deniers-go-after-aoc-greta-thunberg-with-sexist-attacks/
To Sacha at 5: that comment about "child abuse" towards Thunberg's parents reminds me of a BBC reporter at the Auckland CHOGM conference who asked me why a woman like me ( not defined) was holding an anti-nuke banner. In discussion I told him of young grandson also very perturbed about nuclear testing at that time, whereupon he replied that children shouldn't know about such things!
I suspect he had no idea that the protest was about Mururoa in particular but British and French interest in nukes as well, and was there to report clamour for arriving dignitaries.
'pimps their kid out'. Vile comment. We have had a few slurs here also. Some brains need to go in the wash and be hung to dry in sunlight. A natural disinfectant for some very degraded, besmirched humans.
Hopefully they'll sue.
With this trial of supplying lunches to some test schools, I ask why lunch, would not breakfast have a greater result? As then the students are in a better place for the entire school day not the last couple of hours.
Good point. I assume the theory is they get breakfast at home but might not be given any lunch or lunch money.
I assume it’s harder to organise in the morning.
i thought breakfast would be easier to make available and would also be able to more easily be adapted to cover most if not all dietary and cultural needs and can be provided on site. Lunch time is more compressed and I would imagine require heating of food with pre prepared being needed off site and food would be more difficult to cover varied needs.
Getting kids to school on time and settling them into a routine is not an easy task. Maybe providing breakfast is a good way of achieving that but it will cut into class time. Indeed, it would be better to provide sustenance at the beginning of the day but I think the practicality of that works against it.
Definitely the Kids are much easier to settle down in class if they have had breakfast. I found running them around the field first thing, especially the Boys also helped.
On Spirit of Adventure the kids started with star jumps and swimming around the ship in the morning, followed by a full cooked breakfast. No trouble getting them to pay attention.
There are already breakfast programmes in many schools.
Yes, and in some pre-schools too. They are mostly cereal and milk and the children can often help themselves. No big fuss is made about them, hence many people might not know. It's been hapening for years – at least 10 I would say
Yes, JanM and Sacha.
But clearly, while feeding kids at school/preschool helps somewhat, it hasn't done enough to stop the growing queues at food banks nor the growing demand for hardship grants.
It is not intended to. That takes other actions.
That, evidently, are lacking.
What’s the hold up? Could it be our politicians are paid too much, thus are out of touch?
It requires actions like, actually paying people enough money to live, instead of tax payers subsidizing underpaying employers. But that option doesn't seem to have arrived on Labours radar, and is anathema to National's "socialism for the rich".
Schools I have been in (Secondary sector) recognised that most kids ate most of their lunch at Morning Interval, so lengthened Morning Interval a bit, shifted Lunch back one hour, and had only one period after lunch instead of the old two periods, when difficult classes could be at their most nightmarish.
Because of this, I would seriously hope that these so-called 'lunches' will be given out at Morning Interval.
Lunch time is too late, and would minimise the benefit.
Perhaps schools could be forced to move lunch back where it sensibly belongs.
Suicide rates are 90 per cent higher in areas of high deprivation
http://features.nzherald.co.nz/teen-suicide-an-untold-story/
Hence, when I called out Cinny & Rosemary on their denial of the impact of poverty on the high number of suicides it wasn't without good reason
http://features.nzherald.co.nz/teen-suicide-an-untold-story/
The Morgan Foundation have been researching what works (see below) to ensure lower income families get the chance to thrive.
https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/09-07-2017/we-already-know-how-to-help-prevent-suicide-when-will-we-start-taking-action/
https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/02-03-2017/pennies-from-heaven-why-we-need-to-give-all-parents-cash/
[It is nice that you feel vindicated.
However, IMO you are misinterpreting if not twisting their words and using this to vindicate yourself and/or your judgemental opinion in some way. Get over it! Sensitive topics such as suicide are not for scoring points of any kind.
You stubbornly refuse to listen and taken on board suggestions and advice. You stubbornly refuse to change your style and MO. You can get quite shitty when challenged. You stubbornly refuse to take responsibility for your role in the frequent pile-ons. Your hypercritical negative comments are nothing but your biased opinion and judgement but you don’t acknowledge or accept that.
I am getting fed up with your judgemental criticisms because they do not make for good robust debate. I’m giving you yet another warning to change your ways, because you can make a (highly) positive contribution here on this site even or particularly if it is criticism of the Government, past or present, instead of diverting attention away to yourself. Please take heed or sooner or later I will take away your privilege of commenting on this site irrespective of you being a leftie, which you most likely are; you are not the first leftie to receive a ban – Incognito]
totally support what you are saying about poverty as a cause of depression/suicide..
it does my head in how journalists don't seem to have the nous to ask emoting politicians that question..
it also does my head in how so many of the unblinking/in-lockstep supporters of this gimmint shift uneasily in their seats at this question – knowing their labour gummint (except for sole-parents) has done s.f.a. to address poverty…
which – can only be done – not by more emoting – but by increasing the incomes – by a substantial amount – of those poorest/most likely to kill themselves…
Indeed, phillip.
While the general point may true , comparing raw numbers with high numbers of teens/younger adults may just produce relatively higher numbers than areas with far less of those groups. Guess what demographics have large families ?
Its the equivalent of saying very busy roads have more crashes because they are 'dangerous', when the clue is they have massively higher numbers of cars.
Clearly, you overlooked this: Suicide rates are 90 per cent higher in areas of high deprivation. Thus, we are not only talking about the number of youth suicides.
What does your headline say?
teen suicide an untold story …hmmm what group could that be about. They even say its so high for that group it causes a noticeable bump in stats
Love to see your reference about ALL age groups that invalidates my claim
Yes, that is one headline of the links provided. And more than one link was provided
But the statement clearly states suicide rates are 90 per cent higher in areas of high deprivation.
This comes down to the associated stress that comes with being poor, thus losing hope. And families are made up of more than just children.
Denial much?
In a search to try and make sense of what is happening we look for common denominators. Poverty check. Brown check. Young check.
But none of this is why we take our own lives. As Mike King says "We harm ourselves when our inner critic gets the upper hand."
In search of finding solutions we seek reasons why the problem is occurring.
And one common denominator in this problem is suicide rates are 90 per cent higher in areas (note, areas, not just the far north) of high deprivation.
While I have respect for Mike and know he speaks from experience in this matter, he doesn't speak for everyone. Moreover, the negative impacts of living in poverty helps form and develop ones inner critic. Putting people in that dark space.
See my Moderation note @ 11:22 AM.
I looked up archives for TS wanting to see ratings for this site which I know we have and couldn't strike the right heading. Could someone give me a steer for where to find them please? ( I was looking at Open Parachute and remembered that lprent mentioned that some other meter was being used.)
On how the rhetoric used by conservative apologists mirrors that used by pre-war supporters of the south.
After the El Paso shooting, Ben Shapiro — a popular conservative podcaster — asked Americans to draw a line between the few conservatives who are white supremacists and those who, like him, aren’t. Almost all Americans are “on the same side,” he said, and “we should be mourning together.” In his telling, we aren’t, for “one simple reason: Too many on the political left [are] castigating the character of those who disagree,” lumping conservatives and political nonconformists together with racists and xenophobes.
I grew up in a conservative family. The people I talk to most frequently, the people I call when I need help, are conservative. I’m not inclined to paint conservatives as thoughtless bigots. But a few years ago, listening to the voices and arguments of commentators like Shapiro, I began to feel a very specific deja vu I couldn’t initially identify. It felt as if the arguments I was reading were eerily familiar. I found myself Googling lines from articles, especially when I read the rhetoric of a group of people we could call the “reasonable right.”
[…]
So it felt frustrating: When I read Weiss, when I listened to Shapiro, when I watched Peterson or read the supposedly heterodox online magazine Quillette, what was I reminded of?
My childhood home is just a half-hour drive from the Manassas battlefield in Virginia, and I grew up intensely fascinated by the Civil War. I loved perusing soldiers’ diaries. During my senior year in college, I studied almost nothing but Abraham Lincoln’s speeches. While I wrote my thesis on a key Lincoln address, Civil War rhetoric was almost all I read: not just that of the 16th president but also that of his adversaries.
Thinking back on those debates, I finally figured it out. The reasonable right’s rhetoric is exactly the same as the antebellum rhetoric I’d read so much of. The same exact words. The same exact arguments. Rhetoric, to be precise, in support of the slave-owning South.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/08/29/conservatives-say-weve-abandoned-reason-civility-old-south-said-that-too/
http://archive.li/HYSqX
That was a very good read.
arthur grimes is 'owned' on national radio…
(in fact – he was monstered – came across as irrational/illogical/gdp-doctrinaire..
the professor has no clothes..)
Brexit – good attempt to summarise the current running by the Guardian's Isabel Hardman.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/31/brexit-weirdest-week-four-scenarios
and Aljazeera –
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/08/brexit-thousands-protest-johnson-move-suspend-parliament-190831132616559.html
A petition calling on the government not to suspend Parliament has gained more than one million signatures, while more than 50 MPs from the main parties have also pledged to set up an alternative House of Commons if the suspension goes forward. …
In London, thousands of angry protesters on Saturday rallied outside Downing Street, the official residence of the prime minister, to oppose the controversial move scheduled for early September….
More than 80 protests across the UK on Saturday were organised by the anti-Brexit campaign group Another Europe is Possible and were led by Momentum – a left-wing caucus within the opposition Labour Party. The organisers named the protests "Stop the Coup" in reference to Johnson's plans.
The gathering in London brought together people from a range of backgrounds.
Paddy Gemmell, 15, a student from London, said the suspension of Parliament is "undemocratic".
"Since people voted for Brexit many have begun to understand what that actually means and have changed their minds – their voices should be heard," he said.
"Voices should be heard" – which is code for doing the EUs bidding when any referendum vote goes against them , invalidate that vote by any means.
Ask Norwegians how their vote against Joining the EU went.
"Paddy Gemmell, 15, a student…" , is that really the voice of the people ?
It was pretty much invalidated by the lies told beforehand dookydooky.
Lies were told before the vote by the Remainers you only read the Guardian who are hyper partisan on remain at all costs so they ignore all the nonsense they told before the referendum vote. It was so bad they even had a code name for it Project Fear
"In May 2016, then-chancellor George Osborne warned leaving the EU could cause a drop in house prices of 18% – it didn’t materialise and 11 months later, Nigel Farage was crowing as prices continued to rise."
George Osborne, the then Chancellor, said in a BBC Radio 4 interview that leaving the European Union would cause "financial instability" and leave "no economic plan," which would need an immediate response from the government. "There would have to be increases in tax and cuts in public spending to fill the black hole," he said.
Good to see the backlash against this odious decision to auction off this significant Māori cloak by the english. This is not the 1840s anymore… This taonga needs to be sent back to the iwi in NZ where it belongs free of charge instead of living in a cupboard.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2019/08/m-ori-cloak-auction-cancelled-after-kiwis-threaten-owners-with-abuse.html
And a hearty well done to the gum-sucking morons who thought vile abuse and threats would somehow see a taonga returned.
FFS.
It did stop the auction. Not a good social dynamic that, but I doubt that the cloak was going to be returned to Iwi.
Indeed vile abuse and threats are not the best way to negotiate but I'd say that since Maori tried negotiating respectfully with English settlers 200 years ago and were treated to vile abuse, their descendants feel no obligation now to conduct themselves with much decorum towards these English.
Hurt people hurt. For generations.
This cloak meant nothing to these people for a hundred years and now that it's been valued in monetary terms they no longer care to return it to Ngāti Maniapoto. It means money to them, nothing else.
Hurt people hurt.
The Cancer Society have won the media furore race.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/397898/government-to-establish-a-cancer-control-agency-and-give-pharmac-an-extra-60m
What about others like those with endemitriosis? – just affects women. Or Chronic Fatigue Syndrome – they're too tired to get up and do something for themselves, No cancer is the in-disease at the present.
It was labour party election policy to establish a new 'agency' Look it up
Maybe cancer is the 'in disease' because it has in some instances high death rates compared to your ridiculous 'chronic fatigue syndrome' ( Is there even a established treatment or new medication that can be funded – didnt think so)
Those of us who have cancers would prefer it not to be the in-disease 🙂
I have a resection due in ten days, so I have a stake in the matter. My fourth diagnosis so far. It does have an emotional component for many people and I can see that others with life threatening and serious diseases would feel the same about their particular affliction.
Money does help. Last night I attended a support group meeting of fellow sufferers and partners. One man has a three monthly drug to take. He saw the price tag once. $1003 for one dose. Effective though. A good man and husband is kept alive and functioning by the state's expenditure.
Is it possible that someone who has had cancer can understand that others are aching for assistance, who are not faced with a terminal disease. Such a lot of cancer sufferers wish to have a longer life without consideration of the cost. They don't want to die, they don't want to pay out their own money to buy the expensive nostrums, and they don't care that the country already is not providing basic services for young needy people.
Perhaps we should have a voucher system, a lifetime allowance with a few allowances for rare cases. And age needs to become of importance. Once you are over 70? If not then, what would be reasonable, 75, 80? And then palliative care only.
Thanks for the response, greywarshark. This is a difficult issue, not because I have again an operable cancer, but because it gets into issues such as you have raised about age, whether we should countenance triage with age as a consideration, use of available resources with a voucher system to restrict overuse of resources, and more assistance to people with non-terminal but needed services.
Firstly, I reject the ageism. I am about to turn 70 but a form of selectivity based on age is a very dangerous notion considering what else may be used as a criterion like mental health, cretinism, genetic disorders, putative contributions to society, membership of social outgroups based on ethnicity, lifestyles, religion, immigration status. You see where this can lead?
I also reject your assertion that older people don't care about provision of services to needy young people. That is also ageist, wrong and unworthy.
I reject your assertion that they don't want to pay out of their own money for what you dismiss as 'nostrums', which is defined as "a medicine prepared by an unqualified person, especially one that is not considered effective."
greywarshark, your style of argument is very difficult to wish to continue with. I thank you for your response but earnestly ask that you full consider how you argue and what you are actually espousing.
I understand that you are arguing for a group either young or missing out in your view on adequate services and treatment. If you have someone in that situation, then I feel for you.
There are other answers than dumping on other groups.
A huge amount of what we argue about concerns allocation of resources.
The resources are there. Do we want to do this or do that? Defence or health? Bailouts for failed businesses or education? Tax breaks or prison reform? Support for films, world rugby and yachting cups or mental health?
Maybe there is still not enough money. And consider that old folk have children and grandchildren that they wish the best for. And vice versa. I am unhappy to see this discussion descend into an "us versus them" scenario.
Better that we promote our causes, acknowledge the shortfalls and discuss how we best justly allocate our resources based on reason, actual need and fairness.
Good luck with everything mac1.
@ g-shark..
'and they don't care that the country already is not providing basic services for young needy people. '
what a vile unfounded accusation/generalisation…
sit down – why don't you..
There'll always be plenty of waddabouts graysie.
Are we getting value for money out of our parliamentarians (from all parties)?
Or do we pay them too much?
The PM currently gets about nine times the average wage. While others receive less, they still receive more than the average worker.
And considering the poor state of the nation (and not just of late) is paying them so much really attracting quality representation?
Moreover, is paying them so much (putting them in the top one per cent of income earners) a problem (as in, with high incomes as such, so many of them are now out of touch with your average voter) thus continually fail to improve life for the majority?
Is it long past time we reset (lower) the incomes of our MPs?
The Chairman, I'll tell you just one story I know to be true. A former MP had two terms in a marginal seat. The night he lost the seat someone burned down the barn on a little farmlet he had. No employer would give this former MP a job. He had to subsist on his farmlet. He was generous with his own money whilst an MP. I know.
There are risks involved in being an MP. It's a hard life. A British MP was murdered, remember.
Tne last point I make is one I made to Geoffrey Palmer many years ago. We pay our MPs, judges etc well to lessen the threat of corruption and bribery. It is one of the fair prices of democracy.
So we are paying them exorbitant amounts of danger money? When others (such as police officers) in dangerous jobs aren't paid nowhere near as much.
As for averting the potential for corruption, some would argue that's largely a fail. Moreover, we can and should better police that.
[Attributing words, feelings, emotions, beliefs, or motives to other commenters does not make for a constructive debate. If you feel the need to make assumptions, you must check these before you take them as a given. Please pay close attention to mac1’s first sentence in his response @ 14.1.1.1 to you – Incognito]
I think you have taken one part of what I said, exaggerated it hugely, and attributed to me beliefs that I do not have.
To respond to your point re corruption, yes we need to have and I believe do have sufficient safeguards regarding police and the judiciary.
But, paying well enough that there is no temptation to augment the income with a little under-counter extra is a good strategy. Better than paying very good salaries to incorrupt guardians to oversee our guardian police, judiciary and MPs because if the guardians of the guardians are corruptible through insufficient financial independence, then we're back worse than when we started. Whew!
"Quis custodiet custodes ipsos?"
The above quote were your words.
Therefore, I asked (not exaggerated it hugely and attributed to your beliefs) if we are paying them exorbitant amounts of danger money?
Which you have yet to clarify.
If our policing of this was/is fully robust we wouldn't require this strategy.
Moreover, regardless how much we pay our MP's they could still be open to corruption as those (affluent multinational corporations for argument sake) that wanted to bribe them would merely offer them more to sway them.
Therefore, it really falls down to how well this type of corruption is policed.
I don't think the salaries are particularly exhorbitant. It's an important job with significant responsibilities, and for every one who walks into a highly paid lobbying or directorship job related to their political life, there are several who simply go back to their homes and former careers.
And yes, there is a reputational (and sometimes physical) risk associated with the job.
Should they be paid more than cops or whatever? I think a better equivalence would be between politicians and upper management. 120 people in charge of a $300 billion, 4.7million person organisation? From that perspective, they're cheap.
In comparison to the average worker, it's exorbitant.
In comparison to a CEO, not so much.
I'm not denying there is a risk to the job. But there are risks with many jobs that don't reward nowhere as much.
And just because they oversee a lot (money/population) doesn't mean they are doing a good job of it, thus they should be rewarded on performance on top of a far lower base salary, which takes into account how well those on the bottom are impacted from their decisions/oversight.
I prefer pay-based performance; employer unions generally aren't too keen on performance-based pay.
Re-election is their reward.
Let me put it another way: someone works 40hr/wk for $50k. Would you expect them to throw their hat in the ring, quit that permanent job for maybe three years on the same rate, mostly working longer hours based in another town, and bunging you in the public eye?
They are still paid rather well (albeit less) if they aren't re-elected.
On performance based pay they still have the opportunity to do a good job and be better compensated. Giving them the incentive to do better.
It's performance-based job retention. Judged by their employers, the electorate.
"Performance-based pay" is a stupid idea for anything that doesn't have clearly quantifiable benchmarks with simple inputs that are largely in the control of the worker. But it sounds good when applied to teachers and politicians, even if the people calling for it have no idea about how to implement it fairly both for the employee and the people the employee is supposed to serve.
Reading and thinking over the thread, I'm just getting fucked off. If we pay MPs fuckall, then only the rich can afford to be MPs. If we pay them an average wage, then no average worker would risk their livelihood or the family's income for precarious employment that has no financial advantage.
Not that you've stated how performance would be judged (or by whom), or the vague ballpark of payscales you'd like to see for politicians.
You're just, yet again, spouting right wing platitudes that serve only to make the rich more powerful and the poor more easy to get removed from the political system.
I’m off to bed.
Unfortunately, the electorate (their employers) don't currently set or have any input on their salaries. Nor can the public fully dismiss them. Whether or not they are re-elected they are still employed in opposition. Unless of course they don't make that 5% threshold. Therefore, it's not really (albeit to a very limited extent) performance-based job retention.
I agree, clearly quantifiable benchmarks are vital in performance base pay. Hence, it's not suited to all work places/professions. However, I think we could make it work for politicians.
I disagree that only the rich would be able to afford to be an MP. As the base rate would be reasonable.
Moreover, it’s a privilege to serve the people. We should be seeking those that are not only capable but have a genuine passion and desire for it. Not those only seeking a huge salary. Additionally, there is little risk. The average wage is alright (albeit they would be getting above that) and the job is fairly secure. Even in opposition, one would be paid. On top of that, some like to travel and the down times (holidays/breaks) are rather generous. Making up for time away from home. And their pension scheme is good. It may not suit all, but not all are suited to every job. So I don't see any justification for your anger.
That would be up for public debate, after all, we are their employers.
How? Why do you think that? Every quanta for a politician I can think of is either easily rortable or doesn't reflect quality of performance.
And the public does get to dismiss them every three years.
Reasonable for a permanent average job. Not for someone to risk their family's livelihood on by quitting steady, permanent employment. That's why it would be a folly for the rich, not a realistic proposition for the average person.
I’m angry because I think you should know this, whether you are genuinely left wing or a tory in disguise.
Currently, once one becomes an MP they become one of the elite (the rich) hence part of the problem we need to solve.
Not if they merely end up in opposition, thus still on the payroll.
Glad you asked. By further empowering voters.
Being an MP is a extremely unique occupation. As in, your employer is all of us.
Therefore, I suggest along with the public having input on their base rate, we should also be given the opportunity to determine their performance rate. This could be done every three years at election.
The public could/should be allowed to have input in setting a performance scale range and decide on how they individually feel the Government/MP's have performed. Giving the Government/MP's a further incentive to better work for the majority.
That doesn't address the point I raised.
Which they can only do if they maintain the support of their electorate or their party. Otherwise, they're out.
🙄
How? You're not actually stating a position.
That doesn't address my point.
In today's gig economy, not many are lucky enough to have a permanent secure job. Moreover, if one enters parliament via Labour or National their employment is largely secure by either being in Government or in opposition, thus on the public payroll.
If MP's need lots of money to refrain from unethical or corrupt behavior, then I think they are not the sort of people we need in Parliament.
Obviously, having some of the highest MP salaries in the Western world, has failed in this regard. With many instances of unethical and dis honest behavior.
Salaries do make it affordable for normal people to be in Parliament. Before MP 's were paid, Parliament was almost exclusively idle absentee landowners.
I don't see why they should be paid more than a school senior teacher, however.
Pensions commensurate with those paid to military personnel would be more appropriate than the current fortune.
The other problem is the make up of Parliament. A distinct lack of tradespeople for one. And way to many lawyers and failed businessmen.
Indeed, KJT.
Yes, we do lack diversity in the make up of our parliament in that regard.
See my Moderation note @ 4:16 PM.
In the grand scheme of things, the money is a drop in the ocean. Many public servants are paid more.
The role needs to be something capable people aspire to. Spending weeks away from home and pulling a living wage would result in representation that would have you posting non-stop.
Yet, considering the poor state of the nation (and not just of late) are we really attracting capable people? I think not.
I’m not suggesting we lower their wage to a mere living wage, but to a more reasonable amount.
As for many public servants being paid more, it's long past time we reset (lowered) their income too.
"Poor state of the nation."
Chairman, I think if you lived in The Garden of Eden you'd spend your time lodging complaints. "Dear God, I saw a weed amongst the Lavender yesterday."
I'm sorry you find living in New Zealand such a grind. I don't suppose it's going to make you feel much better but I love it.
Satisfaction, can't get no.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jLIRJwfZhg
Marvin the robot is my favourite character in Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide. He has a delightful Eeyore persona. "Life, don't talk to me about life."
Yeah, there's a bit of Chairman in Marvin.
Surely you don't want to be perceived as a doomster Chairman? Optimism is sexy.
Reality is priceless
Your reality is a steaming pile of poo.
I'll run with my reality thanks.
You are free to run with whatever you like.
However, it's doesn't change the reality of the stats – i.e. the rich are getting richer as more people are queuing for food and hardship grants, while a growing number are sleeping rough.
Ask them if they think politicians are value for money and working hard for them.
The mildly rich are 1% of us Chairman. 99 in every 100 people are you and me.
A rich person trading their Ferrari in on a Corolla and building a state house with the change will not shorten the list for emergency housing.
How soon do you think we would see a marked improvement in our governance after we put MPs on $65k pa?
If I started sending you $300 a week would you stop moaning?
If they all had to live on the same incomes of the majority, I suspect policy improvements would come about rather quickly.
@ d mac…
are you dismissing the link between poverty/suicide..?
and that this govt has not done very much about – poverty..?
Yes. I'm dismissing the suicide/poverty line.
It's underwritten by "If you don't want me to top myself, give me money."
I think a better approach is…"Of course you have value and can make as much money as your imagination will allow you to. Come with me and I'll show you how."
As Mike King says, it's about our inner critics. We all have them, it's about where we're at with our inner critics. We need to learn to be there for those that are carrying obese inner critics. Poor, rich, brown, white, whatever.
'Yes. I'm dismissing the suicide/poverty line'
wow..!
you are able to stare down the stats showing the much much higher rates of suicide amongst the poor..?
of not for that reason..why..?
and..have you ever been poor/struggled..?
and given your age/generation/attitude..i doubt it…
'cos if you had you would know what that stain is like…
and the miseries/despair it brings..
and would not be so callous – to boot..
Well spotted, David Mac. I suspect that for many years The Chairman's diodes have been aching all down his Left side.
Pile on in, In Vino.
Bet you can’t wait for my next post (political donations) and my solution. Keep tuned in for that one. Or as they say, keep it locked
I expect you will be piling on in on that one too. As the mob runs wild.
Money For Nothing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTP2RUD_cL0
The discussion isn't about me. Try addressing the points I made.
Not all are doing badly, The rich are getting richer.
And some may argue (which I am) that this comes down to (in part) because of policy made by politicians that are out of touch with the needs of the majority.
Additionally, re mac1's claim re threats being made on politicians, perhaps they wouldn't be threaten as much if they better represented the majority and not the elite (like them) getting richer .
I think The Chairman's problems with NZ would be all fixed if the government gave him an extra $1000 a week. I think it's more about you than you acknowledge.
The government is never going to make anyone well off Chairman. Those that want to be comfortable will need to make their own arrangements.
Again, it's not about me. Try again.
Well, no CGT sure helps property flippers build their wealth. And don't they (a number of politicians) along with their high incomes have property investment?
Self serving much?
Geez, you seem very concerned about other peoples' money. How much have you got?
It sort of is about you. It's you that is perpetually disgruntled. I'm cranking snapper and singing 3 chord anthems at the pub.
I'm quick to poke finger at a politician in here, but life in NZ? I don't slag NZ, I love living in New Zealand.
You seem to be having a crappy time of it Chair. You care too much to be a mere observer. I fear the shortcomings you highlight are more to do with your poison ivy coloured glasses than the targets you're quick to zero in on.
But hey, this is the sort of conversation we should have mano on mano. You need a reboot from someone you love….Unless you aspire to be known as the perpetually negative person that is an expert at finding fault and useless at identifying solutions….nobody wants to be that guy.
Life in NZ doesn't suck any where near as much as you would have us believe.
"..Life in NZ doesn't suck any where near as much as you would have us believe.'..
maybe not for you..
but for many it is..
It's less than some of the useless pricks they appoint cherry.
That needs addressing to, Gabby.
🙄
https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/museums/what-happened-when-trump-visited-the-african-american-history-museum-according-to-its-former-director/2019/08/30/5471494e-cb5a-11e9-a1fe-ca46e8d573c0_story.html?noredirect=on
Donald has come so far, a few years ago he would of said "They love me in Dutchland."
He probably did say that …these sorts of things are 'often tidied' up in print.
If it weren't so serious, it would be a riot having a cartoon character in the big chair at the White House….Foghorn Leghorn?
Sure, how many times has Trump visited the Netherlands?
"A plant-based diet with less meat and dairy could transform the country's health while also slashing emissions, MPs have been told.
OraTaio: NZ Climate and Health Council co-convenor Dr Alexandra Macmillan said if New Zealand reduced emissions from farming and dairy it would also boost the health of the population.
"New Zealand's diet at the moment is really unhealthy, it's causing a huge amount of disease," she said. "
https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/115370156/plant-based-diet-could-cut-disease-hospital-costs-and-emissions-nz-health-sector-says
(ahem..!..)
Indeed!
i thought shorthand would suffice..
This one (track below) goes out to all those that want to rain down on me. I've got my waterproof coat
https://youtu.be/KL5jLAMiIQI
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Plush-Eeyore-Coat-Yellow-Backpack-Disneyland-Horse-Donkey-Zebra-Cla/362730368862?hash=item54746a2f5e:g:PbEAAOSwP5JdEIfr
It must smell of piss on the inside.
Latest on Brexit. EU sets a line in rock.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49540681
Brexit: Michel Barnier [EU lead negotiator] rejects demands for backstop to be axed
and
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-war-erupts-tory-mps-19118531
Brexit war erupts as Tory MPs face down Boris Johnson's threat to cast them out.
Boris Johnson could withdraw the whip from Tory MPs who vote to block no-deal Brexit. But today the rebels faced him down – in a move that risks a historic split in the Conservative Party and the country…
MPs will table a law on Tuesday to stop Boris Johnson crashing the UK out of the EU on October 31 without a deal.
The Prime Minister, who has a majority of one, faces defeat if the MPs can pass the law in the tiny period of time before he suspends Parliament for five weeks, from around September 12….
A Government spokesperson said: “All options for party management are under consideration.”
The warning is an echo of David Cameron’s tweet four years ago that the country faced “a simple and inescapable choice – stability and strong Government with me, or chaos with Ed Miliband.”
A Sky News correspondent believes if the British opposition Labour Party doesn't appoint a new leader, a no deal brexit is on the cards
© 2019 Newstalk ZB, NZCity
Who the f**k is Enda Brady anyway.
"Appoint" a new leader- which planet is she on..Corbyn was elected by the membership.
I believe she is a he 😉
A big endian ,not a little endian.?
What do I know?
bastards
Voice from shadowy figure in the distance – 'Take care. You are making me angry. We have ways of dealing with outrageous dissent.'