I did make the effort to read the piece and at the end, I noted the author's 'credentials'. The infamous quote from one Mandy Rice-Davies immediately sprung to mind.
I see really good opinions regularly on TS. What about some of the writers seeking jobs on these news outlets? Or will they only accept RWs or dedicated controversialists? Well we have those too. Go for it I reckon, do what you love doing and get paid for it.
I've seen video of such happenings; filmed in Haiti. Very dramatic.
*sings “Do, do that voodoo, that you do, so well…”
By “She”, you meant Judith, right?
Opinion pieces that are penned by Mps staff seems to scraping the bottom of the barrel- wouldnt it normally be ghost written by BVV and appear under Seymours name.
Or is it the other way round and Seymour does some bullet points and his office writes it up, but Seymour is too scared of offending nationals big wigs such as Bridges, Bennett and co so hides behind his employee
Genetic engineering is not required when organic farming has the solutions, writes Philippa Jamieson.
"Former chief science adviser Sir Peter Gluckman has said that New Zealand could become a ''backwater'' if we don't loosen up our laws governing genetic engineering. The ODT editorial (19.8.19) also claimed we are ''in serious danger of becoming uncompetitive''.
On the contrary! We stand to gain by remaining GE-free, and even better, by transitioning towards organics. Demand for clean, green, GE-free, safe, healthy, ethical organic food is increasing year on year – around the world and here in Aotearoa New Zealand."
A small country like ours could be a niche provider of good quality food
We're an island, we don't have the problems of continental borders We are uniquely positioned to take advantage of this preference in the market
And apart from all that economic blather primarily we could do it through our commitment to more natural farming. Genetic selection and breeding , yes, forceful splicing( a kind of rape of a plant's integrity) , no
Good to see a rebuttal of Sir Peter Gluckman the scientist that Gnats love to love. I think John Key made some comment about specialist advisors – that for every gambit that the Left could produce, he could produce a different one from the Right. So it is all a battle for whoever will prevail, and the devil take the hindmost despite real outcomes that need precaution to prevent, or positive input to create and encourage.
Key got away with comparing legal opinions – which are just etheria- and science which is more rigorous and has a defined process to become peer reviewed .
The closest example is a court judgement after the opinions and facts have been presented.
Given that she's an organic food industry lobbyist, "Well she would say that, wouldn't she?" I expect a GE industry lobbyist would take a different view.
She would and they would. It's a nuanced discussion, that of organically-grown food in relation to that which is not grown that way. Some human industries might have been better to have been left as theory, rather than pursued, by humans; "germ warfare" for example, and I wonder if there's a bona fide way of knowing, at the outset, whether any particular path is a wise one to follow, or not. Clearly arguments can be made and won, even though the results might ultimately be catastrophic. Is there a way to judge, in the early stages, the wisdom of such proposals? The GE proposals are some that are met with strong feelings of opposition by people such as Philippa; is she correct in her position? Is it just "reasoned debate" that can determine the suitable path to take? Are the views of indigenous peoples the true measure of such proposals? I think that needs exploring.
The precautionary principle seems a useful frame to judge emerging tech. Do we actually *need GE foods? I can't see any reason why we do. If some consider it a nice to have, let's work with the precautionary principle first. Should have applied that to dairy conversions too.
There are some quite useful possibilities that come with the technology – soybeans modified to synthesize lysine for example, a protein chiefly found in fish, the absence of which slows growth rates in a number of domestic animals.
Unfortunately the technology seems to have been first adopted by the ravening loons at Monsanto, so they went after terminator genes and "roundup readiness". The former is a fairly reasonable use, the latter two not worth taking chances for.
I agree that Monsanto has taken things to whole new heights. However the soybean example would be a decades long experiment until we get large long term studies. If we look at the fat hypothesis, we can see half a century now of bad science and worse public health response and despite the problems with the hypothesis being well known for a decade we're still not moving on changing.
I just don't think we are anywhere near close to being able to responsibly assess and manage GE tech in the food chain. Part of that is capitalism and Monsanto culture, but those dynamics are throughout society including science and medicine.
The lysine soybeans were done long ago – Big Ag twisted Monsanto's arm.
Actually I think it can be assessed responsibly without too much trouble, the difficulty is once you say yes proponents will try to bring in everything, a very undesirable tendency.
There is also the thing that plant geneticists are possible well paid skilled occupations for a sustainable future society. NZ used to be good at that stuff, even without these new technologies.
An assessment of value versus risk, with a field trial imposition or exclusion for not meeting value minimums. So that a crop field tested for twenty years or so might be okayed for general release – if it has no complaints against it in that time.
The difficulty would be to create a system robust enough to remain operative under the reckless stupidity of the current opposition – and that would certainly be an almost insurmountable challenge.
The field test is to reveal problems not anticipated in the design phase. So going back to the lysine soybeans – have they any cultural (ie are they invasive or do they cross fertilize to a problematic degree) or do they develop toxicity or provoke allergic responses. If twenty years say no, they're not so different from comparable non GE soybeans and need not be restricted.
Plants designed for high pesticide resistance or to resist insect pests by accumulating toxins might have to reach a higher standard. But for example the GMO designed to restore the American Chestnut does not seem to be problematic, and subject to a trial, might be released.
“have they any cultural (ie are they invasive or do they cross fertilize to a problematic degree) or do they develop toxicity or provoke allergic responses”
How do you assess provoking allergic responses? Or other health issues? It sounds good in theory, but we know that people already have various reactions to eating soy, and that food intolerances seem to be increasing and we don’t yet know why. Add to that that science isn’t *that good at assessing combined and culmulative effects, nor understanding the synergistic aspect of plants that has come about via natural selection and how that impacts on humans (eg what’s the relationship of lysine to the other amino acids and other components and processes in the plant?), and I’ll invoke the precautionary principle again.
The point of lysine is that stock that lack it in their diets have their growth constrained – it need only be about 0.5 or 1 %. Traditionally this shortfall was made up with fishmeal, but growing demand versus declining supply has made that very expensive, and it promotes 'kill everything' fishing habits. I'm not sure if it is used for salmon feeds or the cooked legume based fish feeds they've developed in Oz, but in principle it would be sensible.
Allergy testing is usually by scratch tests, there are well standardized protocols.
This from weka is a very well put piece of truth that should be absorbed in every brain cell by those positing that increased technology and experimentation of any sort is what we need to overcome all our present and future problems.
I just don't think we are anywhere near close to being able to responsibly assess and manage GE tech in the food chain. Part of that is capitalism and Monsanto culture, but those dynamics are throughout society including science and medicine.
There is an interesting example coming up for consideration that perhaps we could look at and that is a new version of ryegrass that has been trialled for NZ (I understand) in the USA. Has every downside of its use been examined carefully and objectively? If we did decide to use it, would we have complete ownership of it? Or have we foregone that by not doing the trials ourselves. Can we trust the firm to maintain their integrity and commit themselves and their employees to handing back to us all our material and renounce any interest in it?
The main problem is the current separation of responsibility, of the people making the money, shareholders, and the people who end up paying for the fuckups, us!
Simply changing company law, so that those who profit from any technology, or any business activity, are jointly strictly liable personally under criminal law, with penalties commensurate with the costs, for any consequent damage, would stop a lot of enthusiasm for untested technology.
Monsanto would fast lose their enthusiasm for roundup, if they knew there is a certainty of having to prove dead bees wasn't them.
The precautionary principle seems a useful frame to judge emerging tech.
The precautionary principle is a handy tool for opposing the introduction of a new technology, because it demands the inventors prove a negative. It's not very useful outside of that context.
Do we actually *need GE foods?
Nope. But then, given that we made it through half a billion years of evolution without using any technology at all until the last hundred thousand, the same answer applies to all technology – from stone tools through to artificial intelligence.
That's not what I meant though. I mean us, now, in the middle of the post-industrial revolution. Some tech we need eg how to maintain nuclear reactors so they don't cause mass damage. We need cancer treatments. We need ways of growing food. We don't have a lot of alternatives for preventing nuclear fallout or cancer, we do have perfectly adequate alternatives to GE for food growing. If half the effort (science and political) went into that instead of GE, we'd be well on our way to reducing ag GHGs by now.
"The precautionary principle is a handy tool for opposing the introduction of a new technology, because it demands the inventors prove a negative. It's not very useful outside of that context."
not in this case. Proof of a negative isn't required. Pro-GE people might frame it like that but that misses the point of the precautionary principle. If there's reasonable grounds for caution because of the unknown nature of the proposal, then the inability to prove a negative is useful. It slows us down so we can make better decisions.
Opposition to GE is essentially religious in nature, so no amount of testing will ever be enough to convince opponents that the precautionary principle has been satisfied. I don't see a difference between that and asking people to prove a negative.
"Opposition to GE is essentially religious in nature"
Oh bullshit. Those who opposed to GE actually understand what the process is and how the result is an organism that cannot be proven to be safe, as opposed to organisms that we've been consuming for thousands of years that have only been changed by natural or specific selection. And if you claim GE is the same as selection by trait you don't understand what Genetic Engineering is. Though the name should give you some clue.
Evidence and rational argument is always a pretty good start.
I fully agree. But it can never be complete, conclusive, definitive, and absolute. Nor can it be the be-all-end-all. Nor can it nullify emotions. Nor can it decide moral dilemmas.
Bull. Any science that is carried out by people who want to make a profit from a technology should be treated with suspicion.
And the cost benefit ratio to the community should be assessed. Including the degree of risk if it turns out like the introduction of rabbits, down the track.
After enough testing to ensure that it is safe enough.
Not forgetting what companies did to farmers over patented crops.
There are also commercial reasons to remain GE free for export crops. There is a huge market around the world to people who don't want to be lab rats.
Incognito: I understand that. It's why evidence and rational argument is a good place to start, not the be-all and end-all.
Robert: if we start with evidence and rational argument, it's up to GE opponents to explain what harm they envisage from GE, not to issue an impossible demand for GE researchers to prove that no damage could possibly occur.
"Robert: if we start with evidence and rational argument, it's up to GE opponents to explain what harm they envisage from GE, not to issue an impossible demand for GE researchers to prove that no damage could possibly occur. "
I agree. Will you put forward your evidence and rational argument so we can have a discussion? It would be interesting to start with one simple claim/aspect, rather than a general one; much easier to contain the discussion and hopefully, reach agreement.
Robert: it would be simpler to start with one simple aspect if GE opponents were only opposed to particular individual instances of it and unopposed to it as a general principle, but that isn't the case. Blanket rejection of GE as a technology requires evidence and rational argument for that blanket rejection.
Don't you think that sellers of technology should show that it is safe.
We even have safety requirements for car manufacturers. Crop and pesticide developers, especially in the USA, are largely self regulated, with only the threat of individual law suits. As with tobacco, those take decades to affect profits enough to have any effect.
Don't you think that sellers of technology should show that it is safe.
I certainly do. Technology like this requires thorough testing in a rigorous regulatory environment. Which we have.
The flip side of that question is equally valid: don't you think that once thorough testing in a tightly-regulated environment shows a technology is safe, its use should be permitted?
to Robert at 2: " Demand for…..safe organic food is increasing etc" is why this great gran is (after early swim to keep fit enough to accomplish it) going to spend this gorgeous Dunedin day attending to my vegies and berries as have done for decades. wherever my home. Importantly, the taste of food fresh from the garden is inestimably better than almost anything from supermarket shelves, conveniently at hand and cheaper.
to Robert at 2.3.1. : enjoyed the smile…..NB that this great gran has enjoyed home grown food since babyhood and knows her onions regarding development in GE. Had gardens for my classes for decades …..also taught about greenhouse gas threat as soon as was in science journals.
Structural separation and a re-merger would mean the electricity industry would have approximately the same market structure that the National government imposed on the telecommunications industry when it forced Telecom to split into Spark and Chorus and decided that retailers of ultrafast broadband (UFB) should compete on an even footing.
…
Reintegrating the 51-per cent stated-owned generators and spinning off their retail arms into fully privatised businesses may ultimately prove necessary. That is if the industry is to meet the challenge of increasing electricity supply by 43 per cent to generate the 57 terawatt-hours (TWh) that Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment officials believe will be required by 2050, and the Government's goal of 100 per cent renewable generation by 2035.
You forgot one part about 'forced separation' of Telecom and Chorus
National government paid around $950 mill to buy 45% of Chorus AND provided 'soft loans' for Chorus to build Fibre street network PLUS tax payer funded installs ( $2000 each ?) from street backbone to ‘ fibre terminating unit’ inside the house.
There is a multi billion dollar public funded utility in controlled by a private business.
I always thought years ago that when Telecom was sold off ( so taxpayers wouldnt have to bail it out or fund its capital for expansion) that one day we would have to 'buy it back' – like we did with Kiwirail and Air NZ.
And by various means , we paid for it but didnt get the ownership !
Steven Joyce, negotiating genius. Even with Cunliffe having done the legwork on separation, his successor still managed to transfer more state money into private pockets to sweeten the deal.
Treasury must have had a seizure when they were asked to evaluate the proposal, dont recall much at the time .
Not only that but the whole fibre broadband tender from Chorus at the time was , as they say, 'non conforming' which it meant they didnt meet the terms and conditions. But they jacked up a backroom deal with Joyce with a few titbits for others to give a semblance of open tender.
Curran has been dragged over the coals for a meeting or two with Carol Hirschfeld and yet Joyce was in deals 'off the calendar' worth 'billions' and nothing in the media ( mostly because the main media journalists were 'his chooks' who were regularly fed inside stories- except the likes of Road Oram who were forced out)
Am I the only one who wishes Martyn Bradbury would shut the f*** up about everything 'woke'. He honestly has some serious obsession issues in that regard.
No, Bradbury's always been like this, or at least in the years I've seen him online. It's just another version of his anti-identity politics views. Work culture in NZ needs critiquing but he's not the person to do it because he's not very good at listening and just ends up polarising the left further.
Woke comes out of Black culture in the US, where it has a different meaning and usage.
Unfortunately, Thunberg was also greeted by a wave of misogynist nastiness, largely coming from allegedly grown men in both Europe and the United States. The attacks on Thunberg were in the same vein as those on Ocasio-Cortez, accusing her of being too stupid to know what she's talking about and denying that her voice is one worth honoring. A writer for the conservative Washington Examiner claimed that Thunberg is a victim of "child abuse" and that her mother "pimps their kid out," explicitly drawing a line between forced sex work and climate activism.
To Sacha at 5: that comment about "child abuse" towards Thunberg's parents reminds me of a BBC reporter at the Auckland CHOGM conference who asked me why a woman like me ( not defined) was holding an anti-nuke banner. In discussion I told him of young grandson also very perturbed about nuclear testing at that time, whereupon he replied that children shouldn't know about such things!
I suspect he had no idea that the protest was about Mururoa in particular but British and French interest in nukes as well, and was there to report clamour for arriving dignitaries.
'pimps their kid out'. Vile comment. We have had a few slurs here also. Some brains need to go in the wash and be hung to dry in sunlight. A natural disinfectant for some very degraded, besmirched humans.
With this trial of supplying lunches to some test schools, I ask why lunch, would not breakfast have a greater result? As then the students are in a better place for the entire school day not the last couple of hours.
i thought breakfast would be easier to make available and would also be able to more easily be adapted to cover most if not all dietary and cultural needs and can be provided on site. Lunch time is more compressed and I would imagine require heating of food with pre prepared being needed off site and food would be more difficult to cover varied needs.
Getting kids to school on time and settling them into a routine is not an easy task. Maybe providing breakfast is a good way of achieving that but it will cut into class time. Indeed, it would be better to provide sustenance at the beginning of the day but I think the practicality of that works against it.
Definitely the Kids are much easier to settle down in class if they have had breakfast. I found running them around the field first thing, especially the Boys also helped.
On Spirit of Adventure the kids started with star jumps and swimming around the ship in the morning, followed by a full cooked breakfast. No trouble getting them to pay attention.
Yes, and in some pre-schools too. They are mostly cereal and milk and the children can often help themselves. No big fuss is made about them, hence many people might not know. It's been hapening for years – at least 10 I would say
But clearly, while feeding kids at school/preschool helps somewhat, it hasn't done enough to stop the growing queues at food banks nor the growing demand for hardship grants.
It requires actions like, actually paying people enough money to live, instead of tax payers subsidizing underpaying employers. But that option doesn't seem to have arrived on Labours radar, and is anathema to National's "socialism for the rich".
Schools I have been in (Secondary sector) recognised that most kids ate most of their lunch at Morning Interval, so lengthened Morning Interval a bit, shifted Lunch back one hour, and had only one period after lunch instead of the old two periods, when difficult classes could be at their most nightmarish.
Because of this, I would seriously hope that these so-called 'lunches' will be given out at Morning Interval.
Lunch time is too late, and would minimise the benefit.
Hence, when I called out Cinny & Rosemary on their denial of the impact of poverty on the high number of suicides it wasn't without good reason
We have families where people are living with no hope and no opportunities. When someone feels like they have nowhere to go, one of the consequences is suicide.” – Far North Mayor John Carter.
The Morgan Foundation have been researching what works (see below) to ensure lower income families get the chance to thrive.
The evidence shows it is poverty itself that is at the heart of why lower income children and parents experience greater levels of mental distress.
In the book Pennies From Heaven, I describe research showing that being poor affects parents and their children’s wellbeing through increased stress.
Stress affects the way parents interact with children, it affects their family relationships, and the brain development of children themselves – all of which impacts on parents’ and children’s mental wellbeing.
Cash with no strings attached is a very powerful tool.
We researched the effectiveness of intensive in-home pre-schooling, parental training, housing interventions, food in schools and nurses in schools, additional cash for families with children, compulsory employment programmes for parents and more.
Nothing was as powerful in improving lives and preventing negative outcomes as unconditional cash.
Unconditional cash lifts the stress – other interventions may not
Cash without strings allows parents to alleviate their family’s particular source of stress – no family has exactly the same sources of stress or the same set of support needs. Cash does not proscribe or prescribe solutions.
Conditional or in-kind assistance (e.g. food in schools, welfare to work programmes) assume to know the source of all struggling families’ needs, or else place conditions on parents in return for that support (like low-paid casual work attendance). These assumptions and conditions can simply increase stress.
Hence, when I called out Cinny & Rosemary on their denial of the impact of poverty on the high number of suicides it wasn’t without good reason
However, IMO you are misinterpreting if not twisting their words and using this to vindicate yourself and/or your judgemental opinion in some way. Get over it! Sensitive topics such as suicide are not for scoring points of any kind.
You stubbornly refuse to listen and taken on board suggestions and advice. You stubbornly refuse to change your style and MO. You can get quite shitty when challenged. You stubbornly refuse to take responsibility for your role in the frequent pile-ons. Your hypercritical negative comments are nothing but your biased opinion and judgement but you don’t acknowledge or accept that.
I am getting fed up with your judgemental criticisms because they do not make for good robust debate. I’m giving you yet another warning to change your ways, because you can make a (highly) positive contribution here on this site even or particularly if it is criticism of the Government, past or present, instead of diverting attention away to yourself. Please take heed or sooner or later I will take away your privilege of commenting on this site irrespective of you being a leftie, which you most likely are; you are not the first leftie to receive a ban – Incognito]
totally support what you are saying about poverty as a cause of depression/suicide..
it does my head in how journalists don't seem to have the nous to ask emoting politicians that question..
it also does my head in how so many of the unblinking/in-lockstep supporters of this gimmint shift uneasily in their seats at this question – knowing their labour gummint (except for sole-parents) has done s.f.a. to address poverty…
which – can only be done – not by more emoting – but by increasing the incomes – by a substantial amount – of those poorest/most likely to kill themselves…
While the general point may true , comparing raw numbers with high numbers of teens/younger adults may just produce relatively higher numbers than areas with far less of those groups. Guess what demographics have large families ?
Its the equivalent of saying very busy roads have more crashes because they are 'dangerous', when the clue is they have massively higher numbers of cars.
Clearly, you overlooked this: Suicide rates are 90 per cent higher in areas of high deprivation. Thus, we are not only talking about the number of youth suicides.
In search of finding solutions we seek reasons why the problem is occurring.
And one common denominator in this problem is suicide rates are 90 per cent higher in areas (note, areas, not just the far north) of high deprivation.
While I have respect for Mike and know he speaks from experience in this matter, he doesn't speak for everyone. Moreover, the negative impacts of living in poverty helps form and develop ones inner critic. Putting people in that dark space.
I looked up archives for TS wanting to see ratings for this site which I know we have and couldn't strike the right heading. Could someone give me a steer for where to find them please? ( I was looking at Open Parachute and remembered that lprent mentioned that some other meter was being used.)
On how the rhetoric used by conservative apologists mirrors that used by pre-war supporters of the south.
After the El Paso shooting, Ben Shapiro — a popular conservative podcaster — asked Americans to draw a line between the few conservatives who are white supremacists and those who, like him, aren’t. Almost all Americans are “on the same side,” he said, and “we should be mourning together.” In his telling, we aren’t, for “one simple reason: Too many on the political left [are] castigating the character of those who disagree,” lumping conservatives and political nonconformists together with racists and xenophobes.
I grew up in a conservative family. The people I talk to most frequently, the people I call when I need help, are conservative. I’m not inclined to paint conservatives as thoughtless bigots. But a few years ago, listening to the voices and arguments of commentators like Shapiro, I began to feel a very specific deja vu I couldn’t initially identify. It felt as if the arguments I was reading were eerily familiar. I found myself Googling lines from articles, especially when I read the rhetoric of a group of people we could call the “reasonable right.”
[…]
So it felt frustrating: When I read Weiss, when I listened to Shapiro, when I watched Peterson or read the supposedly heterodox online magazine Quillette, what was I reminded of?
My childhood home is just a half-hour drive from the Manassas battlefield in Virginia, and I grew up intensely fascinated by the Civil War. I loved perusing soldiers’ diaries. During my senior year in college, I studied almost nothing but Abraham Lincoln’s speeches. While I wrote my thesis on a key Lincoln address, Civil War rhetoric was almost all I read: not just that of the 16th president but also that of his adversaries.
Thinking back on those debates, I finally figured it out. The reasonable right’s rhetoric is exactly the same as the antebellum rhetoric I’d read so much of. The same exact words. The same exact arguments. Rhetoric, to be precise, in support of the slave-owning South.
A petition calling on the government not to suspend Parliament has gained more than one million signatures, while more than 50 MPs from the main parties have also pledged to set up an alternative House of Commons if the suspension goes forward. …
In London, thousands of angry protesters on Saturday rallied outside Downing Street, the official residence of the prime minister, to oppose the controversial move scheduled for early September….
More than 80 protests across the UK on Saturday were organised by the anti-Brexit campaign group Another Europe is Possible and were led by Momentum – a left-wing caucus within the opposition Labour Party. The organisers named the protests "Stop the Coup" in reference to Johnson's plans.
The gathering in London brought together people from a range of backgrounds.
Paddy Gemmell, 15, a student from London, said the suspension of Parliament is "undemocratic".
"Since people voted for Brexit many have begun to understand what that actually means and have changed their minds – their voices should be heard," he said.
Lies were told before the vote by the Remainers you only read the Guardian who are hyper partisan on remain at all costs so they ignore all the nonsense they told before the referendum vote. It was so bad they even had a code name for it Project Fear
"In May 2016, then-chancellor George Osborne warned leaving the EU could cause a drop in house prices of 18% – it didn’t materialise and 11 months later, Nigel Farage was crowing as prices continued to rise."
George Osborne, the then Chancellor, said in a BBC Radio 4 interview that leaving the European Union would cause "financial instability" and leave "no economic plan," which would need an immediate response from the government. "There would have to be increases in tax and cuts in public spending to fill the black hole," he said.
Good to see the backlash against this odious decision to auction off this significant Māori cloak by the english. This is not the 1840s anymore… This taonga needs to be sent back to the iwi in NZ where it belongs free of charge instead of living in a cupboard.
Indeed vile abuse and threats are not the best way to negotiate but I'd say that since Maori tried negotiating respectfully with English settlers 200 years ago and were treated to vile abuse, their descendants feel no obligation now to conduct themselves with much decorum towards these English.
Hurt people hurt. For generations.
This cloak meant nothing to these people for a hundred years and now that it's been valued in monetary terms they no longer care to return it to Ngāti Maniapoto. It means money to them, nothing else.
What about others like those with endemitriosis? – just affects women. Or Chronic Fatigue Syndrome – they're too tired to get up and do something for themselves, No cancer is the in-disease at the present.
It was labour party election policy to establish a new 'agency' Look it up
Maybe cancer is the 'in disease' because it has in some instances high death rates compared to your ridiculous 'chronic fatigue syndrome' ( Is there even a established treatment or new medication that can be funded – didnt think so)
Those of us who have cancers would prefer it not to be the in-disease 🙂
I have a resection due in ten days, so I have a stake in the matter. My fourth diagnosis so far. It does have an emotional component for many people and I can see that others with life threatening and serious diseases would feel the same about their particular affliction.
Money does help. Last night I attended a support group meeting of fellow sufferers and partners. One man has a three monthly drug to take. He saw the price tag once. $1003 for one dose. Effective though. A good man and husband is kept alive and functioning by the state's expenditure.
Is it possible that someone who has had cancer can understand that others are aching for assistance, who are not faced with a terminal disease. Such a lot of cancer sufferers wish to have a longer life without consideration of the cost. They don't want to die, they don't want to pay out their own money to buy the expensive nostrums, and they don't care that the country already is not providing basic services for young needy people.
Perhaps we should have a voucher system, a lifetime allowance with a few allowances for rare cases. And age needs to become of importance. Once you are over 70? If not then, what would be reasonable, 75, 80? And then palliative care only.
Thanks for the response, greywarshark. This is a difficult issue, not because I have again an operable cancer, but because it gets into issues such as you have raised about age, whether we should countenance triage with age as a consideration, use of available resources with a voucher system to restrict overuse of resources, and more assistance to people with non-terminal but needed services.
Firstly, I reject the ageism. I am about to turn 70 but a form of selectivity based on age is a very dangerous notion considering what else may be used as a criterion like mental health, cretinism, genetic disorders, putative contributions to society, membership of social outgroups based on ethnicity, lifestyles, religion, immigration status. You see where this can lead?
I also reject your assertion that older people don't care about provision of services to needy young people. That is also ageist, wrong and unworthy.
I reject your assertion that they don't want to pay out of their own money for what you dismiss as 'nostrums', which is defined as "a medicine prepared by an unqualified person, especially one that is not considered effective."
greywarshark, your style of argument is very difficult to wish to continue with. I thank you for your response but earnestly ask that you full consider how you argue and what you are actually espousing.
I understand that you are arguing for a group either young or missing out in your view on adequate services and treatment. If you have someone in that situation, then I feel for you.
There are other answers than dumping on other groups.
A huge amount of what we argue about concerns allocation of resources.
The resources are there. Do we want to do this or do that? Defence or health? Bailouts for failed businesses or education? Tax breaks or prison reform? Support for films, world rugby and yachting cups or mental health?
Maybe there is still not enough money. And consider that old folk have children and grandchildren that they wish the best for. And vice versa. I am unhappy to see this discussion descend into an "us versus them" scenario.
Better that we promote our causes, acknowledge the shortfalls and discuss how we best justly allocate our resources based on reason, actual need and fairness.
Are we getting value for money out of our parliamentarians (from all parties)?
Or do we pay them too much?
The PM currently gets about nine times the average wage. While others receive less, they still receive more than the average worker.
And considering the poor state of the nation (and not just of late) is paying them so much really attracting quality representation?
Moreover, is paying them so much (putting them in the top one per cent of income earners) a problem (as in, with high incomes as such, so many of them are now out of touch with your average voter) thus continually fail to improve life for the majority?
Is it long past time we reset (lower) the incomes of our MPs?
The Chairman, I'll tell you just one story I know to be true. A former MP had two terms in a marginal seat. The night he lost the seat someone burned down the barn on a little farmlet he had. No employer would give this former MP a job. He had to subsist on his farmlet. He was generous with his own money whilst an MP. I know.
There are risks involved in being an MP. It's a hard life. A British MP was murdered, remember.
Tne last point I make is one I made to Geoffrey Palmer many years ago. We pay our MPs, judges etc well to lessen the threat of corruption and bribery. It is one of the fair prices of democracy.
So we are paying them exorbitant amounts of danger money? When others (such as police officers) in dangerous jobs aren't paid nowhere near as much.
As for averting the potential for corruption, some would argue that's largely a fail. Moreover, we can and should better police that.
[Attributing words, feelings, emotions, beliefs, or motives to other commenters does not make for a constructive debate. If you feel the need to make assumptions, you must check these before you take them as a given. Please pay close attention to mac1’s first sentence in his response @ 14.1.1.1 to you – Incognito]
I think you have taken one part of what I said, exaggerated it hugely, and attributed to me beliefs that I do not have.
To respond to your point re corruption, yes we need to have and I believe do have sufficient safeguards regarding police and the judiciary.
But, paying well enough that there is no temptation to augment the income with a little under-counter extra is a good strategy. Better than paying very good salaries to incorrupt guardians to oversee our guardian police, judiciary and MPs because if the guardians of the guardians are corruptible through insufficient financial independence, then we're back worse than when we started. Whew!
There are risks involved in being an MP. It's a hard life. A British MP was murdered, remember.
The above quote were your words.
Therefore, I asked (not exaggerated it hugely and attributed to your beliefs) if we are paying them exorbitant amounts of danger money?
Which you have yet to clarify.
But, paying well enough that there is no temptation to augment the income with a little under-counter extra is a good strategy.
If our policing of this was/is fully robust we wouldn't require this strategy.
Moreover, regardless how much we pay our MP's they could still be open to corruption as those (affluent multinational corporations for argument sake) that wanted to bribe them would merely offer them more to sway them.
Therefore, it really falls down to how well this type of corruption is policed.
I don't think the salaries are particularly exhorbitant. It's an important job with significant responsibilities, and for every one who walks into a highly paid lobbying or directorship job related to their political life, there are several who simply go back to their homes and former careers.
And yes, there is a reputational (and sometimes physical) risk associated with the job.
Should they be paid more than cops or whatever? I think a better equivalence would be between politicians and upper management. 120 people in charge of a $300 billion, 4.7million person organisation? From that perspective, they're cheap.
I don't think the salaries are particularly exhorbitant.
In comparison to the average worker, it's exorbitant.
In comparison to a CEO, not so much.
I'm not denying there is a risk to the job. But there are risks with many jobs that don't reward nowhere as much.
And just because they oversee a lot (money/population) doesn't mean they are doing a good job of it, thus they should be rewarded on performance on top of a far lower base salary, which takes into account how well those on the bottom are impacted from their decisions/oversight.
I prefer pay-based performance; employer unions generally aren't too keen on performance-based pay.
“And then there’s the opposition. Where are they?
National has lost the CGT as an attack weapon against the Government – they’re going to have to pony up for a bit more than the great slushy machine scandal of 2019.
They should be all over Tomorrows Schools – why are National MP Nikki Kaye’s public meetings in school halls not getting more coverage or cut through? Why is her voice not louder?
What about NZ First’s view on Tomorrow’s Schools? Why are they so quiet on this? Are they keeping their powder dry until the last minute, much like they did on the CGT?
Another concern out of the discussion being flushed through the public domain currently is the focal points of conversation. Why are we talking about yet more increased bureaucracy, when we should be talking about teacher shortages, teacher churn, the ageing teaching cohort, lack of male teachers, teachers being under-paid.
What about the hefty union involvement in teaching? Union leaders blocking discussion around performance-based pay? Making good teachers feel as though demanding money based on productivity is criminal. Worse, ensuring under-performing teachers are a protected species.“
Let me put it another way: someone works 40hr/wk for $50k. Would you expect them to throw their hat in the ring, quit that permanent job for maybe three years on the same rate, mostly working longer hours based in another town, and bunging you in the public eye?
They are still paid rather well (albeit less) if they aren't re-elected.
Let me put it another way: someone works 40hr/wk for $50k. Would you expect them to throw their hat in the ring, quit that permanent job for maybe three years on the same rate, mostly working longer hours based in another town, and bunging you in the public eye?
On performance based pay they still have the opportunity to do a good job and be better compensated. Giving them the incentive to do better.
It's performance-based job retention. Judged by their employers, the electorate.
"Performance-based pay" is a stupid idea for anything that doesn't have clearly quantifiable benchmarks with simple inputs that are largely in the control of the worker. But it sounds good when applied to teachers and politicians, even if the people calling for it have no idea about how to implement it fairly both for the employee and the people the employee is supposed to serve.
Reading and thinking over the thread, I'm just getting fucked off. If we pay MPs fuckall, then only the rich can afford to be MPs. If we pay them an average wage, then no average worker would risk their livelihood or the family's income for precarious employment that has no financial advantage.
Not that you've stated how performance would be judged (or by whom), or the vague ballpark of payscales you'd like to see for politicians.
You're just, yet again, spouting right wing platitudes that serve only to make the rich more powerful and the poor more easy to get removed from the political system.
It's performance-based job retention. Judged by their employers, .
Unfortunately, the electorate (their employers) don't currently set or have any input on their salaries. Nor can the public fully dismiss them. Whether or not they are re-elected they are still employed in opposition. Unless of course they don't make that 5% threshold. Therefore, it's not really (albeit to a very limited extent) performance-based job retention.
I agree, clearly quantifiable benchmarks are vital in performance base pay. Hence, it's not suited to all work places/professions. However, I think we could make it work for politicians.
I disagree that only the rich would be able to afford to be an MP. As the base rate would be reasonable.
Moreover, it’s a privilege to serve the people. We should be seeking those that are not only capable but have a genuine passion and desire for it. Not those only seeking a huge salary. Additionally, there is little risk. The average wage is alright (albeit they would be getting above that) and the job is fairly secure. Even in opposition, one would be paid. On top of that, some like to travel and the down times (holidays/breaks) are rather generous. Making up for time away from home. And their pension scheme is good. It may not suit all, but not all are suited to every job. So I don't see any justification for your anger.
Not that you've stated how performance would be judged (or by whom), or the vague ballpark of payscales you'd like to see for politicians.
That would be up for public debate, after all, we are their employers.
I agree, clearly quantifiable benchmarks are vital in performance base pay. Hence, it's not suited to all work places/professions. However, I think we could make it work for politicians.
How? Why do you think that? Every quanta for a politician I can think of is either easily rortable or doesn't reflect quality of performance.
And the public does get to dismiss them every three years.
I disagree that only the rich would be able to afford to be an MP. As the base rate would be reasonable.
Reasonable for a permanent average job. Not for someone to risk their family's livelihood on by quitting steady, permanent employment. That's why it would be a folly for the rich, not a realistic proposition for the average person.
I’m angry because I think you should know this, whether you are genuinely left wing or a tory in disguise.
Reading and thinking over the thread, I'm just getting fucked off. If we pay MPs fuckall, then only the rich can afford to be MPs.
Currently, once one becomes an MP they become one of the elite (the rich) hence part of the problem we need to solve.
And the public does get to dismiss them every three years.
Not if they merely end up in opposition, thus still on the payroll.
How? Why do you think that?
Glad you asked. By further empowering voters.
Being an MP is a extremely unique occupation. As in, your employer is all of us.
Therefore, I suggest along with the public having input on their base rate, we should also be given the opportunity to determine their performance rate. This could be done every three years at election.
The public could/should be allowed to have input in setting a performance scale range and decide on how they individually feel the Government/MP's have performed. Giving the Government/MP's a further incentive to better work for the majority.
If we pay MPs fuckall, then only the rich can afford to be MPs.
Currently, once one becomes an MP they become one of the elite (the rich) hence part of the problem we need to solve.
That doesn't address the point I raised.
And the public does get to dismiss them every three years.
Not if they merely end up in opposition, thus still on the payroll.
Which they can only do if they maintain the support of their electorate or their party. Otherwise, they're out.
Therefore, I suggest along with the public having input on their base rate, we should also be given the opportunity to determine their performance rate. This could be done every three years at election.
🙄
How? You're not actually stating a position.
In today's gig economy, not many are lucky enough to have a permanent secure job. Moreover, if one enters parliament via Labour or National their employment is largely secure by either being in Government or in opposition, thus on the public payroll.
Not for someone to risk their family's livelihood on by quitting steady, permanent employment.
In today's gig economy, not many are lucky enough to have a permanent secure job. Moreover, if one enters parliament via Labour or National their employment is largely secure by either being in Government or in opposition, thus on the public payroll.
If MP's need lots of money to refrain from unethical or corrupt behavior, then I think they are not the sort of people we need in Parliament.
Obviously, having some of the highest MP salaries in the Western world, has failed in this regard. With many instances of unethical and dis honest behavior.
Salaries do make it affordable for normal people to be in Parliament. Before MP 's were paid, Parliament was almost exclusively idle absentee landowners.
I don't see why they should be paid more than a school senior teacher, however.
Pensions commensurate with those paid to military personnel would be more appropriate than the current fortune.
The other problem is the make up of Parliament. A distinct lack of tradespeople for one. And way to many lawyers and failed businessmen.
In the grand scheme of things, the money is a drop in the ocean. Many public servants are paid more.
The role needs to be something capable people aspire to. Spending weeks away from home and pulling a living wage would result in representation that would have you posting non-stop.
Chairman, I think if you lived in The Garden of Eden you'd spend your time lodging complaints. "Dear God, I saw a weed amongst the Lavender yesterday."
I'm sorry you find living in New Zealand such a grind. I don't suppose it's going to make you feel much better but I love it.
However, it's doesn't change the reality of the stats – i.e. the rich are getting richer as more people are queuing for food and hardship grants, while a growing number are sleeping rough.
Ask them if they think politicians are value for money and working hard for them.
It's underwritten by "If you don't want me to top myself, give me money."
I think a better approach is…"Of course you have value and can make as much money as your imagination will allow you to. Come with me and I'll show you how."
As Mike King says, it's about our inner critics. We all have them, it's about where we're at with our inner critics. We need to learn to be there for those that are carrying obese inner critics. Poor, rich, brown, white, whatever.
Chairman, I think if you lived in The Garden of Eden you'd spend your time lodging complaints. "Dear God, I saw a weed amongst the Lavender yesterday."
The discussion isn't about me. Try addressing the points I made.
Not all are doing badly, The rich are getting richer.
And some may argue (which I am) that this comes down to (in part) because of policy made by politicians that are out of touch with the needs of the majority.
Additionally, re mac1's claim re threats being made on politicians, perhaps they wouldn't be threaten as much if they better represented the majority and not the elite (like them) getting richer .
I think The Chairman's problems with NZ would be all fixed if the government gave him an extra $1000 a week. I think it's more about you than you acknowledge.
The government is never going to make anyone well off Chairman. Those that want to be comfortable will need to make their own arrangements.
I think The Chairman's problems with NZ would be all fixed if the government gave him an extra $1000 a week. I think it's more about you than you acknowledge.
Again, it's not about me. Try again.
The government is never going to make anyone well off Chairman
Well, no CGT sure helps property flippers build their wealth. And don't they (a number of politicians) along with their high incomes have property investment?
Geez, you seem very concerned about other peoples' money. How much have you got?
It sort of is about you. It's you that is perpetually disgruntled. I'm cranking snapper and singing 3 chord anthems at the pub.
I'm quick to poke finger at a politician in here, but life in NZ? I don't slag NZ, I love living in New Zealand.
You seem to be having a crappy time of it Chair. You care too much to be a mere observer. I fear the shortcomings you highlight are more to do with your poison ivy coloured glasses than the targets you're quick to zero in on.
But hey, this is the sort of conversation we should have mano on mano. You need a reboot from someone you love….Unless you aspire to be known as the perpetually negative person that is an expert at finding fault and useless at identifying solutions….nobody wants to be that guy.
Life in NZ doesn't suck any where near as much as you would have us believe.
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With normal democratic procedures in abeyance, there were two ways to go. First, it was open for the government to dissolve itself and invite the National Party to join a ministry of national salvation. That would have lessened the democratic deficit of the times by having a team of rivals without ...
Dr Kirsty Ross Children and young people can respond differently in times of distress. This also varies by age and developmental stage, with younger children having more magical and imaginative thinking, and older children having more awareness and knowledge of the issues our communities are facing (which brings up ...
Hungary has been a virtual dictatorship for a decade now, as Prime Minister Viktor Orbán has gradually eroded its democracy. But now, its official, with the passage of an indefinite emergency law allowing rule by decree:Hungary’s parliament has passed a new set of coronavirus measures that includes jail terms for ...
While the economy is on pause under lockdown, the government is beginning to plan how to cope with the post-lockdown, post-tourism, post-export education world we will eventually find ourselves in. They're planning a lot of infrastructure spending as economic stimulus, and have asked for proposals which can start the moment ...
It's my distraction, setting up tiny scenes to photograph. I've got stuck on the Babushka dolls for now. Something about their bubble shape. Something about their never changing, smiling features, suggesting persistent equanimity. Can we get through everything that is being thrown at us and keep at least a tiny ...
. . March 31: Day six of living in lock-down… This time I managed to sleep a little longer and the alarm woke me at the pre-set time: 6.55am. Then remembered I was working a later shift and could’ve slept in. Oh well, there are things to do at home. ...
Image credit:Diamond Harbour School Blogs I notice a few regulars no longer allow public access to the site counters. This may happen accidentally when the blog format is altered. If your blog is unexpectedly missing or ...
Yesterday's Horizon poll showing support for a "Yes" vote in this year's cannabis referendum sliding into the majority for the first time in a year looked like good news for reformers – and it probably is. But the result warrants some scrutiny.The poll is the fifth in a series commissioned ...
While New Zealand is at Alert Level 4, we're making sure that New Zealanders are kept informed and up to date with all the latest developments of the Government's COVID-19 response. It's been a shortened week because of Easter, so we're bringing you our weekly wrap a day early. ...
Earlier this week, the Prime Minister informed the nation that the Easter Bunny (and the Tooth Fairy!) were deemed essential workers. However, she made it clear that, due to the restrictions we are all facing at COVID-19 Alert Level 4, the Easter Bunny may find it tricky to get to ...
Rt. Hon. Winston Peters, Deputy Prime Minister, Minister for Foreign Affairs Hon. Ron Mark, Minister of Defence Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters and Defence Minister Ron Mark today announced that New Zealand will provide a further package of assistance to Vanuatu, to support the response to Tropical Cyclone Harold. “Tropical ...
Rt. Hon. Winston Peters, Deputy Prime Minister, Minister for Foreign Affairs Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced that New Zealand will enter into transit arrangements with a range of countries to make it easier for each other’s citizens to get home. “There are millions of people around the world stranded ...
From the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, our Government has striven to provide calm, clear and consistent communication, including daily press conference updates from the Prime Minister. ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters says getting New Zealanders back home and other travellers out of the country is "a nightmare for our embassies, consuls, and staff around the world".Speaking to NewstalkZB's Mike Hosking, the Foreign Minister said that he gave a clear message to people travelling overseas that they ...
The domestic travel ban has been lifted for stranded foreign tourists trying to get to international airports to fly home, after the Coalition Government announced a plan to help the tens of thousands of foreigners stranded here. Foreign Minister Rt. Hon. Winston Peters spoke with RNZ's Susie Ferguson said foreign ...
Deputy Prime Minister Winston Peters believes the country is rediscovering its resilience and self-reliance through its response to the COVID-19 pandemic.He says he is heartened that the mass majority of New Zealanders are following lockdown rules and that the government looking at the future, including paying to keep much ...
New Zealand can emulate the success of the US after the Great Depression by exploiting our own resources to turn the economy around quickly, Deputy Prime Minister Winston Peters says. Mr. Peters told Magic Talk that New Zealand has an opportunity to come out of the COVID-19 pandemic a "superior, ...
All 45 New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) personnel are either on their way back to New Zealand, or already in the country, according to Defence Minister Ron Mark."Twenty-eight personnel arrived back in New Zealand last week and are in isolation at the Royal New Zealand Air Force base in ...
The COVID-19 situation in New Zealand is moving fast - and to avoid what we've seen overseas - the Government's response must be to move fast too. We're committed to keeping New Zealanders safe and well-informed every step of the way. ...
We know people are feeling anxious about COVID-19. While the situation is serious, New Zealand has a world-class health system and we’re well-prepared to keep New Zealanders safe. ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters is encouraging New Zealanders overseas to stay where they are amid the COVID-19 pandemic. "We are reaching a point where the best option for most New Zealanders offshore is to shelter in place, by preparing to safely stay where they are.” "This includes following the instructions ...
Rt. Hon. Winston Peters, Deputy Prime Minister, Minister of Foreign Affairs Foreign Minister Winston Peters is encouraging the tens of thousands of New Zealanders travelling overseas to consider sheltering in place, in light of COVID-19. “Since 18 March, we have been warning New Zealanders offshore that the window for flying ...
The Sport and Recreation Minister Grant Robertson has announced that urgent maintenance of turf and care for plants in non-plantation nurseries will soon be able to go ahead under Level 4 restrictions. “The Government has agreed that urgent upkeep and maintenance of biological assets will be able to go ahead ...
E tangi ana a Taranaki iwi, e tangi ana te ao Māori, otirā e tangi ana te motu. Mōu katoa ngā roimata e riringi whānui ana, mōu katoa ngā mihi. E te kaikōkiri i te reo Māori, e Te Huirangi, takoto mai. Takoto mai me te mōhio ko ngā ...
Today is day 15 of Alert Level 4 lockdown. And at the halfway mark I have no hesitation in saying, that what New Zealanders have done over the last two weeks is huge. In the face of the greatest threat to human health we have seen in over a century, ...
All driver licences, WoFs, CoFs, and some vehicle certifications, that expired on or after 1 January 2020 will be valid for up to six months from 10 April 2020, Transport Minister Phil Twyford has announced. “People shouldn’t have to worry about getting fined for having an expired document if driving ...
The Government has today released the report from the Public Inquiry into the Earthquake Commission chaired by Dame Silvia Cartwright. Minister Responsible for the Earthquake Commission Grant Robertson says the Government wants to learn from people’s experiences following the Canterbury earthquakes and other recent natural disasters. “Dame Silvia’s report documents ...
The Government has extended by two weeks till April 27 the amount of time priority groups, such as health workers and those aged over 65, have to get their flu vaccine before it is made available to the wider public. This year’s vaccination campaign is a key component of the ...
Communities stepping up to help New Zealanders stay at home to break the transmission of COVID-19 and save lives have received Government support, said Minister for Social Development Carmel Sepuloni. “Delivering groceries for the elderly who can’t shop online, providing data packs for low income families to keep them connected, and being ...
Across New Zealand 120 sites are taking samples to be tested for COVID-19. 68 community based assessment centres (CBACs) have been established to take samples from people with COVID-19 symptoms. Alongside this, 52 other centres including designated general practices, swabbing centres, and mobile clinics are now testing people for ...
The Ministry of Education is working with partners to develop a package of options so that students can learn at home when Term 2 begins on 15 April, Education Minister Chris Hipkins said today. Supports are also being prepared for households with children under five, to help parents and whānau ...
Māori Television to begin educational te reo programmes Ki te Ao Mārama – a new online learning space Thousands of hard copy learning packs ready for distribution Helpdesk and advice service for kōhanga, kura and wharekura Television, the internet and hard copy learning packs are some of the ways whānau ...
Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters has announced an initial package of support to help the people and the Government of Vanuatu respond to the impact of Tropical Cyclone Harold. “Our Pacific neighbours have been hit by a Category 5 Cyclone at the same time as dealing with the economic impacts ...
Tourism New Zealand to lead work reimagining the way tourism operates in post-COVID-19 world. Ministers to review International Visitor Conservation and Tourism Levy investment plan. The Government, industry and business are working together to develop a plan for how tourism will operate in a post-COVID-19 world, Tourism Minister Kelvin Davis ...
More New Zealanders are taking up the chance to work in horticulture as the sector keeps New Zealanders fed and in jobs during the COVID-19 Alert Level 4 lockdown. “Our horticulture sector has long been one of New Zealand’s export star performers, contributing around $6 billion a year to our ...
The Provincial Development Unit is working through applications and projects to see where Provincial Growth Fund money can be repurposed for initiatives deemed more critical to fighting the economic impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic, Regional Economic Development Minister Shane Jones says. “We need to be throwing everything we have at ...
The Government’s wage subsidy to protect jobs and keep workers and businesses connected during the lockdown has now supported over a million New Zealanders, with $6.6 billion already paid out. “We’re supporting businesses to pay wages, and stay connected with their workers so that we are all in a better ...
The Government is stepping up efforts to help protect New Zealand’s Pacific communities in the fight against COVID-19. Cabinet has agreed that $17 million will be allocated to support a COVID-19 Pacific Response Package, which will: Support Pacific health and disability services facing increased demand; Ramp up public health messaging ...
“Yesterday evening the Health Minister advised me of his trip to a beach during the lockdown and offered his resignation,” Jacinda Ardern said. “Under normal conditions I would sack the Minister of Health. What he did was wrong, and there are no excuses. “But right now, my priority is our ...
Last night as part of my preparation for the Epidemic Response Committee, I provided the Prime Minister with a complete picture of my activity outside my home during Alert Level 4. That included the fact that on the first weekend of the Alert Level 4 lockdown I drove my family ...
A range of support is being rolled out across New Zealand to help people look after their mental health during COVID-19 Health Minister David Clark said this morning. “COVID-19 has brought a lot of uncertainty into our lives and many of us will be feeling some level of distress or ...
The New Zealand Government has made arrangements to charter a flight for New Zealanders stranded in Peru to depart the country, following agreement with the Chilean government to allow the necessary transit through Chile, Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters announced today. “Like many travellers around the world at the moment, ...
Hospital preparations for COVID-19 are well advanced says Health Minister David Clark. “Hospitals across New Zealand are repurposing buildings and training staff to get ready for COVID-19 patients. This gives me confidence that we are well prepared for any potential increase in COVID-19 patients needing hospital level care,” said David ...
The Government will be introducing legislation to make changes to the Companies Act to help companies facing insolvency due to COVID-19 to remain viable and keep New Zealanders in jobs. The temporary changes include: Giving directors of companies facing significant liquidity problems because of COVID-19 a ‘safe harbour’ from insolvency ...
The Government’s plan to cushion the blow of COVID-19 by supporting incomes, jobs and businesses, and position the economy to recover has been backed by another international report. International credit rating agency Moody’s today reaffirmed its highest Aaa credit rating on New Zealand, saying the economy is expected to remain ...
The Government has stepped in to support vital air links to our offshore islands, the Chatham Islands, Great Barrier Island and Motiti Island, Transport Minister Phil Twyford announced today. “As part of our $600 million support package to minimise the impacts of COVID-19 on the aviation sector, the Government has ...
National sports organisations have been given certainty of funding to ensure they can remain viable through the COVID-19 pandemic, Sport and Recreation Minister Grant Robertson announced today. “The global spread of COVID-19 has had a significant impact on sport and recreation in New Zealand, including the cancellation or postponement of ...
Changes have been made to allow butchers to process pork, only for supply to supermarkets or other processors or retailers that are open, Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor has announced. “We carefully weighed the risk of allowing butchers to open their shops for retail customers, but the risk of spreading COVID-19 ...
Essential workers who take leave from work to comply with public health guidance are being supported with a leave scheme to ensure they will continue to receive income, say the Minister of Workplace Relations and Safety Iain Lees-Galloway and Minister for Social Development, Carmel Sepuloni. A number of essential businesses ...
A Government WhatsApp channel has been launched to help make information more easily accessible and shareable in the fight against COVID-19. Govt.NZ, which is free to use on any mobile device, will carry information and news for the public, businesses, healthcare providers, not for profits and local government. It can ...
The Government has announced a plan to enable the safe, orderly exit of tens of thousands of stranded foreign nationals from New Zealand during the current COVID-19 Alert Level 4 restrictions, Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Winston Peters has said. “When we moved into lockdown a week ago, the ...
Health Minister Dr David Clark says the Government is delivering on its commitment to support general practice doctors and nurses, and pharmacies on the front-line of our fight against COVID-19. "For us to overcome COVID-19, we need community health services such as general practice and community pharmacy to step up ...
Justice Susan Thomas has been appointed Chief High Court Judge, Attorney-General David Parker announced today. She replaces Justice Geoffrey Venning who has resigned from the position. David Parker paid tribute to Justice Venning, who he said had stewarded the High Court very capably over the last five years. “On behalf ...
Businesses can start applying to their banks for loans under the Business Finance Guarantee Scheme set up to support the New Zealand economy during the COVID-19 pandemic. “We’re moving quickly to protect New Zealand businesses, jobs and the economy during this unprecedented global economic shock,” Finance Minister Grant Robertson said. ...
Work is underway looking at measures to speed up consents for development and infrastructure projects during the recovery from COVID 19, to provide jobs and stimulate our economy. Environment Minister David Parker said the COVID-19 pandemic is a serious global crisis that will have a wide ranging and lasting impact ...
Advance payments will be made to transport construction industry contractors to retain the workforce and ensure it is ready to quickly gear up to build projects which will be vital to New Zealand’s COVID-19 economic recovery, Transport Minister Phil Twyford announced today. He said keeping the workforce required to build ...
The Government has tasked a group of industry leaders to seek out infrastructure projects that are ready to start as soon as the construction industry returns to normal to reduce the economic impact of the COVID-19 pandemic, Economic Development Minister Phil Twyford and Infrastructure Minister Shane Jones say. The Infrastructure ...
Work to scale up the health system in preparation for COVID-19 was today outlined by Health Minister David Clark, as he reported back to the new Epidemic Response Committee. “We are well placed to contain the spread of COVID-19. We have taken early and decisive action at our borders, and ...
The Government is refining its COVID-19 essential business guidance to include the distribution of news publications for communities which are hard to reach. The Minister of Broadcasting, Communications and Digital Media, Kris Faafoi, said the move was in recognition of the importance for New Zealanders who might be harder to ...
The Government is ensuring supermarkets can open on Easter Sunday so we can buy groceries, but stay closed on Good Friday allowing workers to take a break. This provides a balanced approach and ensures we avoid large queues that two days closure may cause. “Supermarkets will be able to open ...
Following the successful conclusion of the Building Partner Capacity (BPC) mission at Taji, New Zealand defence personnel are returning to New Zealand from Iraq, in accordance with the Cabinet decision made in June 2019, Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters and Defence Minister Ron Mark announced today. “New Zealand is very ...
The State of National Emergency to help stop the spread of COVID-19 has been extended for a further seven days, Minister of Civil Defence Peeni Henare said. The initial declaration on March 25 lasted seven days and can be extended as many times as necessary. “Since we went into isolation ...
A tape recording in a brown paper bag recently landed in Emily Writes’ letterbox. After thoroughly disinfecting it she was shocked to discover what it contained. Today was a normal day, day 8271 of the lockdown, and I saw there was a parcel in the letterbox. Knowing a trip to ...
In spite of the ongoing COVID-19 lockdown, the New Zealand Parliament’s Health Select Committee is continuing to progress its mandate to regulate vaping and prevent young people from using vaping products. RELX Technology, Asia’s leading independent ...
A new poem by Vincent O’Sullivan. Once Once in my life I’ve been fishing. A brother-in-law assured, ‘You don’t need to talk out there,’ so we didn’t. After an hour or so he liftedthis reluctant silvery strip from its hook and walloped its head againstthe ridge of the dinghy we sat in for those aeons ...
Friday, April 10: Austrian oil giant OMV has announced today that it’s indefinitely postponing its last remaining oil and gas exploration plans in the Taranaki Basin. Greenpeace is claiming "a win of generational significance" that signals ...
Analysis - Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern is preparing the country for a marathon recovery and life under "the new normal" is starting to take shape, writes Peter Wilson. ...
Misinformation, disinformation and just plain lies about Covid-19 are boiling up on the Internet and spilling over into real life. Peter Bale explains how some powerful forces use the chaos and trolling for their own reasons. Christchurch man Raymond Coombs, 38, thought it would be hilarious to pretend he had Covid-19 and cough over fellow shoppers ...
Tara Ward talks to Spencer Stoner, the producer of Go Further South, the slow TV sensation that hits our screens this Easter. Let’s change Good Friday’s name to “Great Friday”, or maybe “Even Better Friday”, because Prime is giving us the television tonic every lockdown needs. Go Further South, the ...
This versatile ingredient is brilliant for roasting and frying, and it’s a great way to extend the shelf life of butter. It’s also super easy to whip up at home. Until about a year ago I religiously used olive oil to fry and roast with. I preferred using this oil over ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Joanne Orlando, Researcher: Children and Technology, Western Sydney University COVID-19 has left parents grappling with the challenges of online learning, entertainment and work. It’s natural the amount of time children spend using screens will now increase. But that’s OK. Screen time recommendations ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By David Sanderson, Professor and Inaugural Judith Neilson Chair in Architecture, UNSW The head of the Africa Centres for Disease Control and Prevention (Africa CDC) has warned coronavirus poses “an existential threat to our continent”. Evidence from past crises shows not everyone is ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Gillian Triggs, Emeritus Professor, University of Melbourne Grandmothers as social activists? What a radical idea … but one that is increasingly true of today’s generation of grandmothers. Witness the determination and courage of Karen Nettleton in pulling out all the stops to ...
Holiday towns around the country have been on edge, fearing Easter visits from city folk going to their baches. But in one instance, the fears might have been over-stated. Tim Murphy reports. Truth is the first casualty of war, and we keep getting told we are in a war against ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle O’Shea, Senior Lecturer Sport Management, Western Sydney University Against a global backdrop of cancelled sports leagues, and as part of their season opening, National Rugby League (NRL) fans recently packed the stands of Townsville’s new Queensland Country Bank Stadium. Fortunately, professional ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Dianne McGrath, Environmental Engineering PhD candidate; sustainability and food waste expertise, RMIT University As a food waste researcher, I’m interested in how humans prepare food, eat and manage leftovers. This interest is not just confined to Earth – it extends to other ...
For all The Spinoff’s latest coverage of Covid-19 see here. Read Siouxsie Wiles’s work here. New Zealand is currently in alert level four. The country is shut down, apart from essential services. For updated official government advice, see here.The Spinoff’s coverage of the Covid-19 outbreak is funded by The Spinoff Members. To support this work, join The ...
Kayne Peters leaves his Auckland home to spend the lockdown in his whanau bubble in the King Country and help look after those most in need. Ka mate kainga tahi. Ka ora kainga rua. “One dwelling place is overcome, but the second is secure” This whakatauki or proverb well describes ...
The natural isolation of small Pacific islands set in the huge Pacific Ocean could prove to be the defining factor if these vulnerable nations manage to remain free of Covid-19. There is every reason to be optimistic if these small nations can keep rigid restrictions in place. Of course, the ...
How will we know when we’ve been successful in stopping Covid-19 within New Zealand? Farah Hancock reports. As the country moves into its third week of lockdown and the daily number of cases continues to drop, how can we be certain it's safe to move levels and how will we ...
Are we nearly in the clear? It's too early to tell and we can't take anything for granted, says Professor Nicholas Agar of Victoria University of Wellington. Our nation’s fight against Covid-19 seems to be going well. As a Kiwi, I’m enjoying the global applause for our “go hard and ...
The government yesterday announced it would step up its arrivals policy to mandate hotel quarantine or ‘managed self-isolation’ for all returning New Zealanders – people like Andrew Todd, who describes what it’s like to live in a Covid-19 quarantine zone.Four weeks ago, I was living in Canada, earning a meagre ...
Every Friday of lockdown, LockerRoom shares posts from Kiwi sportswomen who've caught our eye with novel ways of keeping on top of their game. This week, gymnasts put their own spin on the toilet paper challenge, the Black Sticks captain gets her pet in on lockdown training, and a triathlete ...
If you’re out on the road this weekend, be prepared to be stopped – and not just by the police. Kayne Peters reports on the official and unofficial roadblocks springing up all over the motu. Iwi across the country have stepped up efforts to secure their borders ahead of Easter ...
The Covid-19 challenge for disabled people is two-fold: keeping them safe, and ensuring disability support continues to be available to them. What's the plan for this? asks Samuel Murray. While we are rightfully focused on eliminating Covid-19, we need a specific plan that addresses the needs of both the disability ...
Although New Zealand-based e-commerce companies like TradeMe are toeing the line on non-essential sales, Facebook Marketplace remains a wild west where buying and selling hasn't stopped, Marc Daalder reports Want a pair of high-heeled Converse shoes to wear during lockdown? How about a cashmere scarf or new jigsaw puzzle? You're ...
Halfway through the lockdown, government restrictions to prevent the spread of coronavirus seem to be taking hold. But the latest suite of measures show the Prime Minister is awake to the dangers of overconfidence, Sam Sachdeva writes “This is going to be a marathon.” Jacinda Ardern’s choice of metaphor to ...
Christchurch’s arterial routes, and the air around them, are being transformed by the lockdown. David Williams takes a look As the days shorten, the nightly commute comes ever closer to sunset. That would normally mean thousands of cars lining up at busy Christchurch intersections, sending plumes of carbon monoxide into ...
A doctor's note from novelist Eileen Merriman, a haematologist at North Shore hospital. At the hospital where I work is a critically ill patient infected with Covid-19 in our intensive care unit – younger than me, with no pre-existing medical conditions. And today I overhead a couple of doctors discussing ...
Responding to sudden, shocking change requires a double lens, writes Fiona Farrell.Read more from the Lockdown letters here.My granddaughter has been making a newspaper. The Daily Chirp. It’s very small, as befits a newspaper designed for birds, but it contains news (a worrying rise in Tweet-19), “Adds” for birdseed medicine ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra Education Minister Dan Tehan has warned non-government schools that if they fail to open for the next term they will face losing funding. He said on Thursday that “as part of the funding requirement” a ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra Remember how last year’s Easter felt bizarre because the country was in election-mode? How normal that seems, now everything is surreal, with the nation “holidaying” in this peculiar, unpleasant limbo. As we contemplate the grimness ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra Michelle Grattan talks with MPs Tim Watts (Gellibrand, Victoria), Fiona Martin (Reid, NSW), Clare O’Neil (Hotham, Victoria) and Helen Haines (Indi, Victoria) about how they do their job during the pandemic. They discuss the operation ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Nic Geard, Senior Lecturer, School of Computing and Information Systems, University of Melbourne; Senior Research Fellow, Doherty Institute for Infection and Immunity, University of Melbourne Following the emergence and rapid spread of COVID-19, several countries have succeeded in bringing local outbreaks under ...
Analysis by Keith Rankin Today’s chart shows the per capita level of testing performed in a number of countries. While the highest testing rate shown is Norway, we should note that Iceland has tested over eight percent of its population; too high to show on this chart. A ...
By RNZ News New Zealand has recorded just 29 new cases of Covid-19 in the past 24 hours, but the prime minister says a decision on changing the alert level will only be made two days before the lockdown ends. It is the fourth day in a row there ...
The Guardian’s Pacific Project disaster video.By the Pacific Project Tropical Cyclone Harold lashed the South Pacific island of Vanuatu, ripping off roofs and downing telecommunications, before moving towards Fiji and Tonga. The powerful cyclone made landfall on Monday in Sana province, an island north of Vanuatu’s capital Port ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Elyse Methven, Lecturer in Law, University of Technology Sydney The message to everyone during the coronavirus pandemic is to stay at home and only leave if you really need to for, say, food, health care or exercise. Police now have powers to ...
Business is Boring is a weekly podcast series presented by The Spinoff in association with Callaghan Innovation. Host Simon Pound speaks with innovators and commentators focused on the future of New Zealand. This week he talks to Pat MacFie from Manaaki.This week we have another special podcast highlighting some of ...
NZ First leader Winston Peters today said he wants the election held on November 21, Radio NZ reported. He says he believes the health system would be under the pump in September with the winter flu season and the country potentially still dealing with the impacts of Covid-19. Prime Minister ...
New Zealand Rock Lobster (crayfish) are once again heading to China with the first small consignment being airfreighted last week. It was one of the first primary industry sectors in New Zealand to be affected by Covid-19, and as we now know, the sledgehammer that hit this industry was just ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Lauren Bloomfield, Senior Lecturer, School of Medicine, University of Notre Dame Australia Lockdown measures aimed at limiting the spread of COVID-19 should actually help cut the cases of flu this year. That’s because keeping people apart to reduce the spread of coronavirus ...
New modelling from Te Pūnaha Matatini projects the impact of the lockdown, and what our next steps could be, Marc Daalder reports New figures from a team of mathematicians and scientists modelling the way Covid-19 could affect New Zealand indicate the lockdown has significantly dampened the spread of the virus. ...
Bernard Hickey talks to Kiwibank chief economist Jarrod Kerr about the latest retail spending data and the Reserve Bank's call for banks to step up as market-makers for corporate and local government bonds. In their latest daily 'Bernard Zooms out to lunch with Jarrod' video, Bernard Hickey and Jarrod ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Georgie Russell, Senior Lecturer, Deakin University This Easter will be especially challenging, with family isolation and many parents under financial strain, or other stressors. So, many parents will be looking to restore some sense of “normality” by welcoming the Easter bunny into ...
The Beths’ live-streamed concert yesterday showed that even in lockdown, music isn’t dead. Here’s why it worked, and where you can see Kiwis live streaming for the next week.Yesterday at 9am, Liz Stokes put a giant pineapple mask over her head and played the Animal Crossing theme on a trumpet ...
New Conservative Leader Leighton Baker has lived in and around the Waimakariri district since 1992 and is revelling in the opportunity to represent the electorate in Parliament after the 2020 general election. “Waimakariri is a diverse district with a strong ...
“Hard-hit councils, who oversee half this country’s public infrastructure, require financial support from central government that is tied to shared priorities through Urban Growth Partnerships,” says Paul Blair CEO of Infrastructure New Zealand. ...
Airways may close seven of its regional air traffic control towers because of a collapse in traveller numbers. The services under review are provided at Hawke's Bay, Gisborne, New Plymouth, Rotorua and Invercargill Airport as well as the airfield flight information services provided at Kapiti Coast Airport and Milford Sound ...
Proposals to expand the role of local councils into climate change mitigation under the Resource Management Act would add confusion, complexity and duplication, according to the Petroleum Exploration and Production Association of New Zealand (PEPANZ) and ...
As New Zealand enters its third week of Covid-19 lockdown, a just released set of modelling provides a flare of light at the end of the tunnel, reports Toby Manhire.On a day that the active case number decreased, it finds that “While New Zealand case numbers remain low, tracing, testing, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Rachael L. Brown, Director of the Centre for Philosophy of the Sciences and Lecturer at the School of Philosophy, Australian National University As they released the modelling of the COVID-19 pandemic behind Australia’s social isolation policies this week, Prime Minister Scott Morrison ...
The latest in our new series of charts, graphics and data visualisations by Chris McDowall.This work is entirely funded by the generosity of The Spinoff MembersThese posts collate the most recent statistics and present them as charts and maps. The Ministry of Health typically publishes data updates in the early ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jim Tognolini, Director, Centre for Educational Measurement and Assessment, University of Sydney Following a meeting with states and territories, federal education minister, Dan Tehan said year 12 students were a priority, and were being sent a clear signal: “There will be no ...
The Council of Licenced Firearms Owners (COLFO) is calling for an equal extension to all licencing regimes, following the Government’s announcement today offering motorists a six-month licencing grace period. COLFO says that like motorists, licenced ...
Dear Minister Jones, Firstly, let me introduce myself. My name is Adrian. I am an employee in the forestry industry, a Future Forester, a graduate of Canterbury University and, albeit very small, a forest owner. ...
As countries in Europe plan a tightrope walk back out of lockdown, the World Health Organisation warns it is too early to relax strict suppression measures in the fight against Covid-19, writes Peter Bale Two weeks into New Zealand's aggressive and early lockdown to combat the spread of Covid-19, voices ...
Consumers dramatically changed their spending patterns last month because of Covid-19 and the government ordered lockdown. Official numbers show overall retail spending using electronic cards fell a record seasonally adjusted 3.9 percent on the previous month. Stats NZ senior manager Sue Chapman said spending on eating out and accommodation plunged ...
A new $200,000 business subsidy package is being launched in Christchurch to help those affected by Covid-19. The ChristchurchNZ business support subsidy will offer eligible businesses up to $1000 each to seek professional advice. The scheme - funded by ChristchurchNZ, the city's economic development agency, will support small to medium ...
Large retailers have been quick to apply for government wage subsidies during the Covid-19 lockdown. The Warehouse has received $67.7 million to cover the labour costs of the shutdown of its Red Shed, Torpedo, Noel Leeming, and Warehouse Stationery chains, which between them employ about 11,000 staff. "The receipt of ...
A new report Quantifying the wellbeing costs of Covid-19 by the New Zealand Initiative shows how an economic hit of about 6.1% of GDP would be justified if it meant saving 33,600 lives during the Covid-19 pandemic. The figures, compiled by research fellow ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Dougal Sutherland, Clinical Psychologist, Te Herenga Waka — Victoria University of Wellington The COVID-19 pandemic has forced millions of people to live under strict lockdown conditions, but the psychology of human behaviour predicts they will find it harder to stick to the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Luke Smillie, Associate Professor, University of Melbourne The coronavirus pandemic has caused tens of thousands of deaths around the world and pushed major economies into a tailspin. Beyond those impacts, almost all of us will face psychological challenges – trying to maintain ...
We asked Tony Baird, of Newsroom foundation supporter Vodafone NZ, to provide some insights into how New Zealanders have been using online and their smartphones during the first fortnight of lockdown. At Vodafone NZ, we entered new territory in this lockdown as New Zealanders have been turning to their smartphones and devices ...
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Very good points except theres no maybe about it:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/115396620/judith-collins-20-may-be-the-leader-national-need-to-take-on-jacindamania-in-2020
Pucky, did you see this article about your girl from a couple of days ago?
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2019/08/30/781560/judith-collins
I can't see how she could stay post-book, any version must deepen the already deep divisions and past behaviours the National Party are ignoring.
The article's author, Pucky?
* Brooke van Velden is a former Act Party candidate and political advisor in the office of Act Party leader David Seymour.
Oh dear!
*Current* staffer of Seymour, even. pffft
I did make the effort to read the piece and at the end, I noted the author's 'credentials'. The infamous quote from one Mandy Rice-Davies immediately sprung to mind.
Mr Melville's well-housed, well- warmed, and well-fed critic personified.
was there a 'well watered' ?
Since was previously with "Excreltium" was that a given
https://nz.linkedin.com/in/brookevanvelden
So ACT are going to terminally destabilise National to create a "Collins" party in the hope of a right wing nirvana.
This could be entertaining.
BVV has twitter that she is going to be writing for nzstuff and her opinions seen regularly in Sunday Star Times.
https://twitter.com/BrookevanVelden?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
I see really good opinions regularly on TS. What about some of the writers seeking jobs on these news outlets? Or will they only accept RWs or dedicated controversialists? Well we have those too. Go for it I reckon, do what you love doing and get paid for it.
She's speaking the truth, It's almost as if Gods own words are flowing through her
I've seen video of such happenings; filmed in Haiti. Very dramatic.
*sings “Do, do that voodoo, that you do, so well…”
By “She”, you meant Judith, right?
I thought he was talking about Greta.
stop the presses..! – an actite has penned a puff-piece about judith collins…
act supporters – all 0.5% of them – must e feeling very proud..
the rest of us can just shrug – and move on…
Opinion pieces that are penned by Mps staff seems to scraping the bottom of the barrel- wouldnt it normally be ghost written by BVV and appear under Seymours name.
Or is it the other way round and Seymour does some bullet points and his office writes it up, but Seymour is too scared of offending nationals big wigs such as Bridges, Bennett and co so hides behind his employee
Genetic engineering is not required when organic farming has the solutions, writes Philippa Jamieson.
"Former chief science adviser Sir Peter Gluckman has said that New Zealand could become a ''backwater'' if we don't loosen up our laws governing genetic engineering. The ODT editorial (19.8.19) also claimed we are ''in serious danger of becoming uncompetitive''.
On the contrary! We stand to gain by remaining GE-free, and even better, by transitioning towards organics. Demand for clean, green, GE-free, safe, healthy, ethical organic food is increasing year on year – around the world and here in Aotearoa New Zealand."
https://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/no-ge-needed-new-zealand?fbclid=IwAR3agtF9RZbn0H9BAt6J2IW_i3cyfNO94wEVhYHZkoKyPElyIPDzUX2kXxU
You're right there
A small country like ours could be a niche provider of good quality food
We're an island, we don't have the problems of continental borders We are uniquely positioned to take advantage of this preference in the market
And apart from all that economic blather primarily we could do it through our commitment to more natural farming. Genetic selection and breeding , yes, forceful splicing( a kind of rape of a plant's integrity) , no
Industry will use climate change as a lever to dislodge the organic argument around GE.
Good to see a rebuttal of Sir Peter Gluckman the scientist that Gnats love to love. I think John Key made some comment about specialist advisors – that for every gambit that the Left could produce, he could produce a different one from the Right. So it is all a battle for whoever will prevail, and the devil take the hindmost despite real outcomes that need precaution to prevent, or positive input to create and encourage.
John Key on Dr Mike Joy.
Key got away with comparing legal opinions – which are just etheria- and science which is more rigorous and has a defined process to become peer reviewed .
The closest example is a court judgement after the opinions and facts have been presented.
Given that she's an organic food industry lobbyist, "Well she would say that, wouldn't she?" I expect a GE industry lobbyist would take a different view.
She would and they would. It's a nuanced discussion, that of organically-grown food in relation to that which is not grown that way. Some human industries might have been better to have been left as theory, rather than pursued, by humans; "germ warfare" for example, and I wonder if there's a bona fide way of knowing, at the outset, whether any particular path is a wise one to follow, or not. Clearly arguments can be made and won, even though the results might ultimately be catastrophic. Is there a way to judge, in the early stages, the wisdom of such proposals? The GE proposals are some that are met with strong feelings of opposition by people such as Philippa; is she correct in her position? Is it just "reasoned debate" that can determine the suitable path to take? Are the views of indigenous peoples the true measure of such proposals? I think that needs exploring.
The precautionary principle seems a useful frame to judge emerging tech. Do we actually *need GE foods? I can't see any reason why we do. If some consider it a nice to have, let's work with the precautionary principle first. Should have applied that to dairy conversions too.
There are some quite useful possibilities that come with the technology – soybeans modified to synthesize lysine for example, a protein chiefly found in fish, the absence of which slows growth rates in a number of domestic animals.
Unfortunately the technology seems to have been first adopted by the ravening loons at Monsanto, so they went after terminator genes and "roundup readiness". The former is a fairly reasonable use, the latter two not worth taking chances for.
I agree that Monsanto has taken things to whole new heights. However the soybean example would be a decades long experiment until we get large long term studies. If we look at the fat hypothesis, we can see half a century now of bad science and worse public health response and despite the problems with the hypothesis being well known for a decade we're still not moving on changing.
I just don't think we are anywhere near close to being able to responsibly assess and manage GE tech in the food chain. Part of that is capitalism and Monsanto culture, but those dynamics are throughout society including science and medicine.
The lysine soybeans were done long ago – Big Ag twisted Monsanto's arm.
Actually I think it can be assessed responsibly without too much trouble, the difficulty is once you say yes proponents will try to bring in everything, a very undesirable tendency.
There is also the thing that plant geneticists are possible well paid skilled occupations for a sustainable future society. NZ used to be good at that stuff, even without these new technologies.
"Actually I think it can be assessed responsibly without too much trouble"
How?
An assessment of value versus risk, with a field trial imposition or exclusion for not meeting value minimums. So that a crop field tested for twenty years or so might be okayed for general release – if it has no complaints against it in that time.
The difficulty would be to create a system robust enough to remain operative under the reckless stupidity of the current opposition – and that would certainly be an almost insurmountable challenge.
crop tested 20 years for what? I'm not sure what you are assessing there.
@Weka
It's a catchall.
The field test is to reveal problems not anticipated in the design phase. So going back to the lysine soybeans – have they any cultural (ie are they invasive or do they cross fertilize to a problematic degree) or do they develop toxicity or provoke allergic responses. If twenty years say no, they're not so different from comparable non GE soybeans and need not be restricted.
Plants designed for high pesticide resistance or to resist insect pests by accumulating toxins might have to reach a higher standard. But for example the GMO designed to restore the American Chestnut does not seem to be problematic, and subject to a trial, might be released.
“have they any cultural (ie are they invasive or do they cross fertilize to a problematic degree) or do they develop toxicity or provoke allergic responses”
How do you assess provoking allergic responses? Or other health issues? It sounds good in theory, but we know that people already have various reactions to eating soy, and that food intolerances seem to be increasing and we don’t yet know why. Add to that that science isn’t *that good at assessing combined and culmulative effects, nor understanding the synergistic aspect of plants that has come about via natural selection and how that impacts on humans (eg what’s the relationship of lysine to the other amino acids and other components and processes in the plant?), and I’ll invoke the precautionary principle again.
What’s the point of the lysine manipulation?
The point of lysine is that stock that lack it in their diets have their growth constrained – it need only be about 0.5 or 1 %. Traditionally this shortfall was made up with fishmeal, but growing demand versus declining supply has made that very expensive, and it promotes 'kill everything' fishing habits. I'm not sure if it is used for salmon feeds or the cooked legume based fish feeds they've developed in Oz, but in principle it would be sensible.
Allergy testing is usually by scratch tests, there are well standardized protocols.
This from weka is a very well put piece of truth that should be absorbed in every brain cell by those positing that increased technology and experimentation of any sort is what we need to overcome all our present and future problems.
There is an interesting example coming up for consideration that perhaps we could look at and that is a new version of ryegrass that has been trialled for NZ (I understand) in the USA. Has every downside of its use been examined carefully and objectively? If we did decide to use it, would we have complete ownership of it? Or have we foregone that by not doing the trials ourselves. Can we trust the firm to maintain their integrity and commit themselves and their employees to handing back to us all our material and renounce any interest in it?
The main problem is the current separation of responsibility, of the people making the money, shareholders, and the people who end up paying for the fuckups, us!
Simply changing company law, so that those who profit from any technology, or any business activity, are jointly strictly liable personally under criminal law, with penalties commensurate with the costs, for any consequent damage, would stop a lot of enthusiasm for untested technology.
Monsanto would fast lose their enthusiasm for roundup, if they knew there is a certainty of having to prove dead bees wasn't them.
The precautionary principle seems a useful frame to judge emerging tech.
The precautionary principle is a handy tool for opposing the introduction of a new technology, because it demands the inventors prove a negative. It's not very useful outside of that context.
Do we actually *need GE foods?
Nope. But then, given that we made it through half a billion years of evolution without using any technology at all until the last hundred thousand, the same answer applies to all technology – from stone tools through to artificial intelligence.
That's not what I meant though. I mean us, now, in the middle of the post-industrial revolution. Some tech we need eg how to maintain nuclear reactors so they don't cause mass damage. We need cancer treatments. We need ways of growing food. We don't have a lot of alternatives for preventing nuclear fallout or cancer, we do have perfectly adequate alternatives to GE for food growing. If half the effort (science and political) went into that instead of GE, we'd be well on our way to reducing ag GHGs by now.
"The precautionary principle is a handy tool for opposing the introduction of a new technology, because it demands the inventors prove a negative. It's not very useful outside of that context."
You say that like it's a bad thing.
Requiring people to prove a negative is a bad thing, both in this particular instance and as a general principle.
not in this case. Proof of a negative isn't required. Pro-GE people might frame it like that but that misses the point of the precautionary principle. If there's reasonable grounds for caution because of the unknown nature of the proposal, then the inability to prove a negative is useful. It slows us down so we can make better decisions.
Still wondering it it might be easier/better to ask someone wise
who did you have in mind?
Someone uncivilised.
Someone who hasn't suffered a cultural "death-by-a-thousand-cuts".
Someone who knows plants in the way you might know a family-member.
Maybe someone long-passed. Perhaps such a person has left words that we can apply to this situation.
Anyone spring to your mind?
Wrong spot!
Opposition to GE is essentially religious in nature, so no amount of testing will ever be enough to convince opponents that the precautionary principle has been satisfied. I don't see a difference between that and asking people to prove a negative.
Opposition to GE is essentially religious in nature,
Rubbish.
Opposition to rubbish is essentially religious 🙂
"Opposition to GE is essentially religious in nature"
Oh bullshit. Those who opposed to GE actually understand what the process is and how the result is an organism that cannot be proven to be safe, as opposed to organisms that we've been consuming for thousands of years that have only been changed by natural or specific selection. And if you claim GE is the same as selection by trait you don't understand what Genetic Engineering is. Though the name should give you some clue.
Support of GE is likewise, religious.
So, how to make the decisions?
Consult the religious leaders?
Or ask someone not contaminated by any religion?
Support of GE is likewise, religious.
If we define "religious" so broadly as to make it a meaningless term, sure.
So, how to make the decisions?
Evidence and rational argument is always a pretty good start. A demand to prove a negative isn't.
I fully agree. But it can never be complete, conclusive, definitive, and absolute. Nor can it be the be-all-end-all. Nor can it nullify emotions. Nor can it decide moral dilemmas.
"If we define "religious" so broadly as to make it a meaningless term, sure."
Not everyone is religious, nor every world-view religious. We could find someone untainted, I'm sure.
"Evidence and rational argument is always a pretty good start. A demand to prove a negative isn't. "
Lets start with evidence and rational argument then. I don't demand that anyone prove a negative.
Bull. Any science that is carried out by people who want to make a profit from a technology should be treated with suspicion.
And the cost benefit ratio to the community should be assessed. Including the degree of risk if it turns out like the introduction of rabbits, down the track.
After enough testing to ensure that it is safe enough.
Not forgetting what companies did to farmers over patented crops.
There are also commercial reasons to remain GE free for export crops. There is a huge market around the world to people who don't want to be lab rats.
Incognito: I understand that. It's why evidence and rational argument is a good place to start, not the be-all and end-all.
Robert: if we start with evidence and rational argument, it's up to GE opponents to explain what harm they envisage from GE, not to issue an impossible demand for GE researchers to prove that no damage could possibly occur.
"Robert: if we start with evidence and rational argument, it's up to GE opponents to explain what harm they envisage from GE, not to issue an impossible demand for GE researchers to prove that no damage could possibly occur. "
I agree. Will you put forward your evidence and rational argument so we can have a discussion? It would be interesting to start with one simple claim/aspect, rather than a general one; much easier to contain the discussion and hopefully, reach agreement.
Robert: it would be simpler to start with one simple aspect if GE opponents were only opposed to particular individual instances of it and unopposed to it as a general principle, but that isn't the case. Blanket rejection of GE as a technology requires evidence and rational argument for that blanket rejection.
Don't you think that sellers of technology should show that it is safe.
We even have safety requirements for car manufacturers. Crop and pesticide developers, especially in the USA, are largely self regulated, with only the threat of individual law suits. As with tobacco, those take decades to affect profits enough to have any effect.
Don't you think that sellers of technology should show that it is safe.
I certainly do. Technology like this requires thorough testing in a rigorous regulatory environment. Which we have.
The flip side of that question is equally valid: don't you think that once thorough testing in a tightly-regulated environment shows a technology is safe, its use should be permitted?
to Robert at 2: " Demand for…..safe organic food is increasing etc" is why this great gran is (after early swim to keep fit enough to accomplish it) going to spend this gorgeous Dunedin day attending to my vegies and berries as have done for decades. wherever my home. Importantly, the taste of food fresh from the garden is inestimably better than almost anything from supermarket shelves, conveniently at hand and cheaper.
"Are the views of indigenous peoples* the true measure of such proposals? I think that needs exploring."
*Or great grans
to Robert at 2.3.1. : enjoyed the smile…..NB that this great gran has enjoyed home grown food since babyhood and knows her onions regarding development in GE. Had gardens for my classes for decades …..also taught about greenhouse gas threat as soon as was in science journals.
At last, a genuine prospect of undoing the damage Max Bradford did to NZ's electricity system: https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/115323041/loyal-customers-set-to-benefit-from-electricity-review-but-gas-users-may-pay-more
You forgot one part about 'forced separation' of Telecom and Chorus
National government paid around $950 mill to buy 45% of Chorus AND provided 'soft loans' for Chorus to build Fibre street network PLUS tax payer funded installs ( $2000 each ?) from street backbone to ‘ fibre terminating unit’ inside the house.
There is a multi billion dollar public funded utility in controlled by a private business.
I always thought years ago that when Telecom was sold off ( so taxpayers wouldnt have to bail it out or fund its capital for expansion) that one day we would have to 'buy it back' – like we did with Kiwirail and Air NZ.
And by various means , we paid for it but didnt get the ownership !
Steven Joyce, negotiating genius. Even with Cunliffe having done the legwork on separation, his successor still managed to transfer more state money into private pockets to sweeten the deal.
Treasury must have had a seizure when they were asked to evaluate the proposal, dont recall much at the time .
Not only that but the whole fibre broadband tender from Chorus at the time was , as they say, 'non conforming' which it meant they didnt meet the terms and conditions. But they jacked up a backroom deal with Joyce with a few titbits for others to give a semblance of open tender.
Curran has been dragged over the coals for a meeting or two with Carol Hirschfeld and yet Joyce was in deals 'off the calendar' worth 'billions' and nothing in the media ( mostly because the main media journalists were 'his chooks' who were regularly fed inside stories- except the likes of Road Oram who were forced out)
Indeed, Dukeofurl. Nor did we (taxpayers) get the return, which of course were privatised.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/102708888/way-to-be-cleared-for-big-electricity-players-to-prey-on-lowincome-households
Don't hold your breath. It doesn't look like much will change out of all this.
Am I the only one who wishes Martyn Bradbury would shut the f*** up about everything 'woke'. He honestly has some serious obsession issues in that regard.
could someone please tell me what 'woke' is/means..?
and as a leftwing vegan – who doesn't use alcohol – but who does smoke pot..
am i automatically one of these 'woke'-people..?
i fear i might be – so need some clarification here..
(i feel a t-shirt coming on – 'am i woke?'..)
Has anyone made the word play linking "woke" with "Ewok"?
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=woke
One NZ synonym may be 'wanker'.
(from the definition)
'The act of being very pretentious about how much you care about a social issue'
so it can be used as an insult/attack weapon by say – unreconstructed flesh-eaters – against – say – militant-vegans..?
so it's a term used by reactionaries..?
'Reactionaries' is the polite term. The more appropriate expression has just one syllable and rhymes with 'mix'.
has bradbury turned the ideological corner – and met his rightwing self coming the other way..?
he really is putting the 'ok' in 'woke'-bashing..
No, Bradbury's always been like this, or at least in the years I've seen him online. It's just another version of his anti-identity politics views. Work culture in NZ needs critiquing but he's not the person to do it because he's not very good at listening and just ends up polarising the left further.
Woke comes out of Black culture in the US, where it has a different meaning and usage.
“I’m a woke bloke woke”
No you're not and he hangs out with some very funny people too.
Just about everything, really.
And haven't we seen similar lines here recently.
https://www.salon.com/2019/08/30/misogyny-meet-hypocrisy-climate-deniers-go-after-aoc-greta-thunberg-with-sexist-attacks/
To Sacha at 5: that comment about "child abuse" towards Thunberg's parents reminds me of a BBC reporter at the Auckland CHOGM conference who asked me why a woman like me ( not defined) was holding an anti-nuke banner. In discussion I told him of young grandson also very perturbed about nuclear testing at that time, whereupon he replied that children shouldn't know about such things!
I suspect he had no idea that the protest was about Mururoa in particular but British and French interest in nukes as well, and was there to report clamour for arriving dignitaries.
'pimps their kid out'. Vile comment. We have had a few slurs here also. Some brains need to go in the wash and be hung to dry in sunlight. A natural disinfectant for some very degraded, besmirched humans.
Hopefully they'll sue.
With this trial of supplying lunches to some test schools, I ask why lunch, would not breakfast have a greater result? As then the students are in a better place for the entire school day not the last couple of hours.
Good point. I assume the theory is they get breakfast at home but might not be given any lunch or lunch money.
I assume it’s harder to organise in the morning.
i thought breakfast would be easier to make available and would also be able to more easily be adapted to cover most if not all dietary and cultural needs and can be provided on site. Lunch time is more compressed and I would imagine require heating of food with pre prepared being needed off site and food would be more difficult to cover varied needs.
Getting kids to school on time and settling them into a routine is not an easy task. Maybe providing breakfast is a good way of achieving that but it will cut into class time. Indeed, it would be better to provide sustenance at the beginning of the day but I think the practicality of that works against it.
Definitely the Kids are much easier to settle down in class if they have had breakfast. I found running them around the field first thing, especially the Boys also helped.
On Spirit of Adventure the kids started with star jumps and swimming around the ship in the morning, followed by a full cooked breakfast. No trouble getting them to pay attention.
There are already breakfast programmes in many schools.
Yes, and in some pre-schools too. They are mostly cereal and milk and the children can often help themselves. No big fuss is made about them, hence many people might not know. It's been hapening for years – at least 10 I would say
Yes, JanM and Sacha.
But clearly, while feeding kids at school/preschool helps somewhat, it hasn't done enough to stop the growing queues at food banks nor the growing demand for hardship grants.
It is not intended to. That takes other actions.
That, evidently, are lacking.
What’s the hold up? Could it be our politicians are paid too much, thus are out of touch?
It requires actions like, actually paying people enough money to live, instead of tax payers subsidizing underpaying employers. But that option doesn't seem to have arrived on Labours radar, and is anathema to National's "socialism for the rich".
Schools I have been in (Secondary sector) recognised that most kids ate most of their lunch at Morning Interval, so lengthened Morning Interval a bit, shifted Lunch back one hour, and had only one period after lunch instead of the old two periods, when difficult classes could be at their most nightmarish.
Because of this, I would seriously hope that these so-called 'lunches' will be given out at Morning Interval.
Lunch time is too late, and would minimise the benefit.
Perhaps schools could be forced to move lunch back where it sensibly belongs.
Suicide rates are 90 per cent higher in areas of high deprivation
http://features.nzherald.co.nz/teen-suicide-an-untold-story/
Hence, when I called out Cinny & Rosemary on their denial of the impact of poverty on the high number of suicides it wasn't without good reason
http://features.nzherald.co.nz/teen-suicide-an-untold-story/
The Morgan Foundation have been researching what works (see below) to ensure lower income families get the chance to thrive.
https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/09-07-2017/we-already-know-how-to-help-prevent-suicide-when-will-we-start-taking-action/
https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/02-03-2017/pennies-from-heaven-why-we-need-to-give-all-parents-cash/
[It is nice that you feel vindicated.
However, IMO you are misinterpreting if not twisting their words and using this to vindicate yourself and/or your judgemental opinion in some way. Get over it! Sensitive topics such as suicide are not for scoring points of any kind.
You stubbornly refuse to listen and taken on board suggestions and advice. You stubbornly refuse to change your style and MO. You can get quite shitty when challenged. You stubbornly refuse to take responsibility for your role in the frequent pile-ons. Your hypercritical negative comments are nothing but your biased opinion and judgement but you don’t acknowledge or accept that.
I am getting fed up with your judgemental criticisms because they do not make for good robust debate. I’m giving you yet another warning to change your ways, because you can make a (highly) positive contribution here on this site even or particularly if it is criticism of the Government, past or present, instead of diverting attention away to yourself. Please take heed or sooner or later I will take away your privilege of commenting on this site irrespective of you being a leftie, which you most likely are; you are not the first leftie to receive a ban – Incognito]
totally support what you are saying about poverty as a cause of depression/suicide..
it does my head in how journalists don't seem to have the nous to ask emoting politicians that question..
it also does my head in how so many of the unblinking/in-lockstep supporters of this gimmint shift uneasily in their seats at this question – knowing their labour gummint (except for sole-parents) has done s.f.a. to address poverty…
which – can only be done – not by more emoting – but by increasing the incomes – by a substantial amount – of those poorest/most likely to kill themselves…
Indeed, phillip.
While the general point may true , comparing raw numbers with high numbers of teens/younger adults may just produce relatively higher numbers than areas with far less of those groups. Guess what demographics have large families ?
Its the equivalent of saying very busy roads have more crashes because they are 'dangerous', when the clue is they have massively higher numbers of cars.
Clearly, you overlooked this: Suicide rates are 90 per cent higher in areas of high deprivation. Thus, we are not only talking about the number of youth suicides.
What does your headline say?
teen suicide an untold story …hmmm what group could that be about. They even say its so high for that group it causes a noticeable bump in stats
Love to see your reference about ALL age groups that invalidates my claim
Yes, that is one headline of the links provided. And more than one link was provided
But the statement clearly states suicide rates are 90 per cent higher in areas of high deprivation.
This comes down to the associated stress that comes with being poor, thus losing hope. And families are made up of more than just children.
Denial much?
In a search to try and make sense of what is happening we look for common denominators. Poverty check. Brown check. Young check.
But none of this is why we take our own lives. As Mike King says "We harm ourselves when our inner critic gets the upper hand."
In search of finding solutions we seek reasons why the problem is occurring.
And one common denominator in this problem is suicide rates are 90 per cent higher in areas (note, areas, not just the far north) of high deprivation.
While I have respect for Mike and know he speaks from experience in this matter, he doesn't speak for everyone. Moreover, the negative impacts of living in poverty helps form and develop ones inner critic. Putting people in that dark space.
See my Moderation note @ 11:22 AM.
I looked up archives for TS wanting to see ratings for this site which I know we have and couldn't strike the right heading. Could someone give me a steer for where to find them please? ( I was looking at Open Parachute and remembered that lprent mentioned that some other meter was being used.)
On how the rhetoric used by conservative apologists mirrors that used by pre-war supporters of the south.
After the El Paso shooting, Ben Shapiro — a popular conservative podcaster — asked Americans to draw a line between the few conservatives who are white supremacists and those who, like him, aren’t. Almost all Americans are “on the same side,” he said, and “we should be mourning together.” In his telling, we aren’t, for “one simple reason: Too many on the political left [are] castigating the character of those who disagree,” lumping conservatives and political nonconformists together with racists and xenophobes.
I grew up in a conservative family. The people I talk to most frequently, the people I call when I need help, are conservative. I’m not inclined to paint conservatives as thoughtless bigots. But a few years ago, listening to the voices and arguments of commentators like Shapiro, I began to feel a very specific deja vu I couldn’t initially identify. It felt as if the arguments I was reading were eerily familiar. I found myself Googling lines from articles, especially when I read the rhetoric of a group of people we could call the “reasonable right.”
[…]
So it felt frustrating: When I read Weiss, when I listened to Shapiro, when I watched Peterson or read the supposedly heterodox online magazine Quillette, what was I reminded of?
My childhood home is just a half-hour drive from the Manassas battlefield in Virginia, and I grew up intensely fascinated by the Civil War. I loved perusing soldiers’ diaries. During my senior year in college, I studied almost nothing but Abraham Lincoln’s speeches. While I wrote my thesis on a key Lincoln address, Civil War rhetoric was almost all I read: not just that of the 16th president but also that of his adversaries.
Thinking back on those debates, I finally figured it out. The reasonable right’s rhetoric is exactly the same as the antebellum rhetoric I’d read so much of. The same exact words. The same exact arguments. Rhetoric, to be precise, in support of the slave-owning South.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/08/29/conservatives-say-weve-abandoned-reason-civility-old-south-said-that-too/
http://archive.li/HYSqX
That was a very good read.
arthur grimes is 'owned' on national radio…
(in fact – he was monstered – came across as irrational/illogical/gdp-doctrinaire..
the professor has no clothes..)
Brexit – good attempt to summarise the current running by the Guardian's Isabel Hardman.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/31/brexit-weirdest-week-four-scenarios
and Aljazeera –
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/08/brexit-thousands-protest-johnson-move-suspend-parliament-190831132616559.html
A petition calling on the government not to suspend Parliament has gained more than one million signatures, while more than 50 MPs from the main parties have also pledged to set up an alternative House of Commons if the suspension goes forward. …
In London, thousands of angry protesters on Saturday rallied outside Downing Street, the official residence of the prime minister, to oppose the controversial move scheduled for early September….
More than 80 protests across the UK on Saturday were organised by the anti-Brexit campaign group Another Europe is Possible and were led by Momentum – a left-wing caucus within the opposition Labour Party. The organisers named the protests "Stop the Coup" in reference to Johnson's plans.
The gathering in London brought together people from a range of backgrounds.
Paddy Gemmell, 15, a student from London, said the suspension of Parliament is "undemocratic".
"Since people voted for Brexit many have begun to understand what that actually means and have changed their minds – their voices should be heard," he said.
"Voices should be heard" – which is code for doing the EUs bidding when any referendum vote goes against them , invalidate that vote by any means.
Ask Norwegians how their vote against Joining the EU went.
"Paddy Gemmell, 15, a student…" , is that really the voice of the people ?
It was pretty much invalidated by the lies told beforehand dookydooky.
Lies were told before the vote by the Remainers you only read the Guardian who are hyper partisan on remain at all costs so they ignore all the nonsense they told before the referendum vote. It was so bad they even had a code name for it Project Fear
"In May 2016, then-chancellor George Osborne warned leaving the EU could cause a drop in house prices of 18% – it didn’t materialise and 11 months later, Nigel Farage was crowing as prices continued to rise."
George Osborne, the then Chancellor, said in a BBC Radio 4 interview that leaving the European Union would cause "financial instability" and leave "no economic plan," which would need an immediate response from the government. "There would have to be increases in tax and cuts in public spending to fill the black hole," he said.
Good to see the backlash against this odious decision to auction off this significant Māori cloak by the english. This is not the 1840s anymore… This taonga needs to be sent back to the iwi in NZ where it belongs free of charge instead of living in a cupboard.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2019/08/m-ori-cloak-auction-cancelled-after-kiwis-threaten-owners-with-abuse.html
And a hearty well done to the gum-sucking morons who thought vile abuse and threats would somehow see a taonga returned.
FFS.
It did stop the auction. Not a good social dynamic that, but I doubt that the cloak was going to be returned to Iwi.
Indeed vile abuse and threats are not the best way to negotiate but I'd say that since Maori tried negotiating respectfully with English settlers 200 years ago and were treated to vile abuse, their descendants feel no obligation now to conduct themselves with much decorum towards these English.
Hurt people hurt. For generations.
This cloak meant nothing to these people for a hundred years and now that it's been valued in monetary terms they no longer care to return it to Ngāti Maniapoto. It means money to them, nothing else.
Hurt people hurt.
The Cancer Society have won the media furore race.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/397898/government-to-establish-a-cancer-control-agency-and-give-pharmac-an-extra-60m
What about others like those with endemitriosis? – just affects women. Or Chronic Fatigue Syndrome – they're too tired to get up and do something for themselves, No cancer is the in-disease at the present.
It was labour party election policy to establish a new 'agency' Look it up
Maybe cancer is the 'in disease' because it has in some instances high death rates compared to your ridiculous 'chronic fatigue syndrome' ( Is there even a established treatment or new medication that can be funded – didnt think so)
Those of us who have cancers would prefer it not to be the in-disease 🙂
I have a resection due in ten days, so I have a stake in the matter. My fourth diagnosis so far. It does have an emotional component for many people and I can see that others with life threatening and serious diseases would feel the same about their particular affliction.
Money does help. Last night I attended a support group meeting of fellow sufferers and partners. One man has a three monthly drug to take. He saw the price tag once. $1003 for one dose. Effective though. A good man and husband is kept alive and functioning by the state's expenditure.
Is it possible that someone who has had cancer can understand that others are aching for assistance, who are not faced with a terminal disease. Such a lot of cancer sufferers wish to have a longer life without consideration of the cost. They don't want to die, they don't want to pay out their own money to buy the expensive nostrums, and they don't care that the country already is not providing basic services for young needy people.
Perhaps we should have a voucher system, a lifetime allowance with a few allowances for rare cases. And age needs to become of importance. Once you are over 70? If not then, what would be reasonable, 75, 80? And then palliative care only.
Thanks for the response, greywarshark. This is a difficult issue, not because I have again an operable cancer, but because it gets into issues such as you have raised about age, whether we should countenance triage with age as a consideration, use of available resources with a voucher system to restrict overuse of resources, and more assistance to people with non-terminal but needed services.
Firstly, I reject the ageism. I am about to turn 70 but a form of selectivity based on age is a very dangerous notion considering what else may be used as a criterion like mental health, cretinism, genetic disorders, putative contributions to society, membership of social outgroups based on ethnicity, lifestyles, religion, immigration status. You see where this can lead?
I also reject your assertion that older people don't care about provision of services to needy young people. That is also ageist, wrong and unworthy.
I reject your assertion that they don't want to pay out of their own money for what you dismiss as 'nostrums', which is defined as "a medicine prepared by an unqualified person, especially one that is not considered effective."
greywarshark, your style of argument is very difficult to wish to continue with. I thank you for your response but earnestly ask that you full consider how you argue and what you are actually espousing.
I understand that you are arguing for a group either young or missing out in your view on adequate services and treatment. If you have someone in that situation, then I feel for you.
There are other answers than dumping on other groups.
A huge amount of what we argue about concerns allocation of resources.
The resources are there. Do we want to do this or do that? Defence or health? Bailouts for failed businesses or education? Tax breaks or prison reform? Support for films, world rugby and yachting cups or mental health?
Maybe there is still not enough money. And consider that old folk have children and grandchildren that they wish the best for. And vice versa. I am unhappy to see this discussion descend into an "us versus them" scenario.
Better that we promote our causes, acknowledge the shortfalls and discuss how we best justly allocate our resources based on reason, actual need and fairness.
Good luck with everything mac1.
@ g-shark..
'and they don't care that the country already is not providing basic services for young needy people. '
what a vile unfounded accusation/generalisation…
sit down – why don't you..
There'll always be plenty of waddabouts graysie.
Are we getting value for money out of our parliamentarians (from all parties)?
Or do we pay them too much?
The PM currently gets about nine times the average wage. While others receive less, they still receive more than the average worker.
And considering the poor state of the nation (and not just of late) is paying them so much really attracting quality representation?
Moreover, is paying them so much (putting them in the top one per cent of income earners) a problem (as in, with high incomes as such, so many of them are now out of touch with your average voter) thus continually fail to improve life for the majority?
Is it long past time we reset (lower) the incomes of our MPs?
The Chairman, I'll tell you just one story I know to be true. A former MP had two terms in a marginal seat. The night he lost the seat someone burned down the barn on a little farmlet he had. No employer would give this former MP a job. He had to subsist on his farmlet. He was generous with his own money whilst an MP. I know.
There are risks involved in being an MP. It's a hard life. A British MP was murdered, remember.
Tne last point I make is one I made to Geoffrey Palmer many years ago. We pay our MPs, judges etc well to lessen the threat of corruption and bribery. It is one of the fair prices of democracy.
So we are paying them exorbitant amounts of danger money? When others (such as police officers) in dangerous jobs aren't paid nowhere near as much.
As for averting the potential for corruption, some would argue that's largely a fail. Moreover, we can and should better police that.
[Attributing words, feelings, emotions, beliefs, or motives to other commenters does not make for a constructive debate. If you feel the need to make assumptions, you must check these before you take them as a given. Please pay close attention to mac1’s first sentence in his response @ 14.1.1.1 to you – Incognito]
I think you have taken one part of what I said, exaggerated it hugely, and attributed to me beliefs that I do not have.
To respond to your point re corruption, yes we need to have and I believe do have sufficient safeguards regarding police and the judiciary.
But, paying well enough that there is no temptation to augment the income with a little under-counter extra is a good strategy. Better than paying very good salaries to incorrupt guardians to oversee our guardian police, judiciary and MPs because if the guardians of the guardians are corruptible through insufficient financial independence, then we're back worse than when we started. Whew!
"Quis custodiet custodes ipsos?"
The above quote were your words.
Therefore, I asked (not exaggerated it hugely and attributed to your beliefs) if we are paying them exorbitant amounts of danger money?
Which you have yet to clarify.
If our policing of this was/is fully robust we wouldn't require this strategy.
Moreover, regardless how much we pay our MP's they could still be open to corruption as those (affluent multinational corporations for argument sake) that wanted to bribe them would merely offer them more to sway them.
Therefore, it really falls down to how well this type of corruption is policed.
I don't think the salaries are particularly exhorbitant. It's an important job with significant responsibilities, and for every one who walks into a highly paid lobbying or directorship job related to their political life, there are several who simply go back to their homes and former careers.
And yes, there is a reputational (and sometimes physical) risk associated with the job.
Should they be paid more than cops or whatever? I think a better equivalence would be between politicians and upper management. 120 people in charge of a $300 billion, 4.7million person organisation? From that perspective, they're cheap.
In comparison to the average worker, it's exorbitant.
In comparison to a CEO, not so much.
I'm not denying there is a risk to the job. But there are risks with many jobs that don't reward nowhere as much.
And just because they oversee a lot (money/population) doesn't mean they are doing a good job of it, thus they should be rewarded on performance on top of a far lower base salary, which takes into account how well those on the bottom are impacted from their decisions/oversight.
I prefer pay-based performance; employer unions generally aren't too keen on performance-based pay.
Re-election is their reward.
Let me put it another way: someone works 40hr/wk for $50k. Would you expect them to throw their hat in the ring, quit that permanent job for maybe three years on the same rate, mostly working longer hours based in another town, and bunging you in the public eye?
They are still paid rather well (albeit less) if they aren't re-elected.
On performance based pay they still have the opportunity to do a good job and be better compensated. Giving them the incentive to do better.
It's performance-based job retention. Judged by their employers, the electorate.
"Performance-based pay" is a stupid idea for anything that doesn't have clearly quantifiable benchmarks with simple inputs that are largely in the control of the worker. But it sounds good when applied to teachers and politicians, even if the people calling for it have no idea about how to implement it fairly both for the employee and the people the employee is supposed to serve.
Reading and thinking over the thread, I'm just getting fucked off. If we pay MPs fuckall, then only the rich can afford to be MPs. If we pay them an average wage, then no average worker would risk their livelihood or the family's income for precarious employment that has no financial advantage.
Not that you've stated how performance would be judged (or by whom), or the vague ballpark of payscales you'd like to see for politicians.
You're just, yet again, spouting right wing platitudes that serve only to make the rich more powerful and the poor more easy to get removed from the political system.
I’m off to bed.
Unfortunately, the electorate (their employers) don't currently set or have any input on their salaries. Nor can the public fully dismiss them. Whether or not they are re-elected they are still employed in opposition. Unless of course they don't make that 5% threshold. Therefore, it's not really (albeit to a very limited extent) performance-based job retention.
I agree, clearly quantifiable benchmarks are vital in performance base pay. Hence, it's not suited to all work places/professions. However, I think we could make it work for politicians.
I disagree that only the rich would be able to afford to be an MP. As the base rate would be reasonable.
Moreover, it’s a privilege to serve the people. We should be seeking those that are not only capable but have a genuine passion and desire for it. Not those only seeking a huge salary. Additionally, there is little risk. The average wage is alright (albeit they would be getting above that) and the job is fairly secure. Even in opposition, one would be paid. On top of that, some like to travel and the down times (holidays/breaks) are rather generous. Making up for time away from home. And their pension scheme is good. It may not suit all, but not all are suited to every job. So I don't see any justification for your anger.
That would be up for public debate, after all, we are their employers.
How? Why do you think that? Every quanta for a politician I can think of is either easily rortable or doesn't reflect quality of performance.
And the public does get to dismiss them every three years.
Reasonable for a permanent average job. Not for someone to risk their family's livelihood on by quitting steady, permanent employment. That's why it would be a folly for the rich, not a realistic proposition for the average person.
I’m angry because I think you should know this, whether you are genuinely left wing or a tory in disguise.
Currently, once one becomes an MP they become one of the elite (the rich) hence part of the problem we need to solve.
Not if they merely end up in opposition, thus still on the payroll.
Glad you asked. By further empowering voters.
Being an MP is a extremely unique occupation. As in, your employer is all of us.
Therefore, I suggest along with the public having input on their base rate, we should also be given the opportunity to determine their performance rate. This could be done every three years at election.
The public could/should be allowed to have input in setting a performance scale range and decide on how they individually feel the Government/MP's have performed. Giving the Government/MP's a further incentive to better work for the majority.
That doesn't address the point I raised.
Which they can only do if they maintain the support of their electorate or their party. Otherwise, they're out.
🙄
How? You're not actually stating a position.
That doesn't address my point.
In today's gig economy, not many are lucky enough to have a permanent secure job. Moreover, if one enters parliament via Labour or National their employment is largely secure by either being in Government or in opposition, thus on the public payroll.
If MP's need lots of money to refrain from unethical or corrupt behavior, then I think they are not the sort of people we need in Parliament.
Obviously, having some of the highest MP salaries in the Western world, has failed in this regard. With many instances of unethical and dis honest behavior.
Salaries do make it affordable for normal people to be in Parliament. Before MP 's were paid, Parliament was almost exclusively idle absentee landowners.
I don't see why they should be paid more than a school senior teacher, however.
Pensions commensurate with those paid to military personnel would be more appropriate than the current fortune.
The other problem is the make up of Parliament. A distinct lack of tradespeople for one. And way to many lawyers and failed businessmen.
Indeed, KJT.
Yes, we do lack diversity in the make up of our parliament in that regard.
See my Moderation note @ 4:16 PM.
In the grand scheme of things, the money is a drop in the ocean. Many public servants are paid more.
The role needs to be something capable people aspire to. Spending weeks away from home and pulling a living wage would result in representation that would have you posting non-stop.
Yet, considering the poor state of the nation (and not just of late) are we really attracting capable people? I think not.
I’m not suggesting we lower their wage to a mere living wage, but to a more reasonable amount.
As for many public servants being paid more, it's long past time we reset (lowered) their income too.
"Poor state of the nation."
Chairman, I think if you lived in The Garden of Eden you'd spend your time lodging complaints. "Dear God, I saw a weed amongst the Lavender yesterday."
I'm sorry you find living in New Zealand such a grind. I don't suppose it's going to make you feel much better but I love it.
Satisfaction, can't get no.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jLIRJwfZhg
Marvin the robot is my favourite character in Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide. He has a delightful Eeyore persona. "Life, don't talk to me about life."
Yeah, there's a bit of Chairman in Marvin.
Surely you don't want to be perceived as a doomster Chairman? Optimism is sexy.
Reality is priceless
Your reality is a steaming pile of poo.
I'll run with my reality thanks.
You are free to run with whatever you like.
However, it's doesn't change the reality of the stats – i.e. the rich are getting richer as more people are queuing for food and hardship grants, while a growing number are sleeping rough.
Ask them if they think politicians are value for money and working hard for them.
The mildly rich are 1% of us Chairman. 99 in every 100 people are you and me.
A rich person trading their Ferrari in on a Corolla and building a state house with the change will not shorten the list for emergency housing.
How soon do you think we would see a marked improvement in our governance after we put MPs on $65k pa?
If I started sending you $300 a week would you stop moaning?
If they all had to live on the same incomes of the majority, I suspect policy improvements would come about rather quickly.
@ d mac…
are you dismissing the link between poverty/suicide..?
and that this govt has not done very much about – poverty..?
Yes. I'm dismissing the suicide/poverty line.
It's underwritten by "If you don't want me to top myself, give me money."
I think a better approach is…"Of course you have value and can make as much money as your imagination will allow you to. Come with me and I'll show you how."
As Mike King says, it's about our inner critics. We all have them, it's about where we're at with our inner critics. We need to learn to be there for those that are carrying obese inner critics. Poor, rich, brown, white, whatever.
'Yes. I'm dismissing the suicide/poverty line'
wow..!
you are able to stare down the stats showing the much much higher rates of suicide amongst the poor..?
of not for that reason..why..?
and..have you ever been poor/struggled..?
and given your age/generation/attitude..i doubt it…
'cos if you had you would know what that stain is like…
and the miseries/despair it brings..
and would not be so callous – to boot..
Well spotted, David Mac. I suspect that for many years The Chairman's diodes have been aching all down his Left side.
Pile on in, In Vino.
Bet you can’t wait for my next post (political donations) and my solution. Keep tuned in for that one. Or as they say, keep it locked
I expect you will be piling on in on that one too. As the mob runs wild.
Money For Nothing
The discussion isn't about me. Try addressing the points I made.
Not all are doing badly, The rich are getting richer.
And some may argue (which I am) that this comes down to (in part) because of policy made by politicians that are out of touch with the needs of the majority.
Additionally, re mac1's claim re threats being made on politicians, perhaps they wouldn't be threaten as much if they better represented the majority and not the elite (like them) getting richer .
I think The Chairman's problems with NZ would be all fixed if the government gave him an extra $1000 a week. I think it's more about you than you acknowledge.
The government is never going to make anyone well off Chairman. Those that want to be comfortable will need to make their own arrangements.
Again, it's not about me. Try again.
Well, no CGT sure helps property flippers build their wealth. And don't they (a number of politicians) along with their high incomes have property investment?
Self serving much?
Geez, you seem very concerned about other peoples' money. How much have you got?
It sort of is about you. It's you that is perpetually disgruntled. I'm cranking snapper and singing 3 chord anthems at the pub.
I'm quick to poke finger at a politician in here, but life in NZ? I don't slag NZ, I love living in New Zealand.
You seem to be having a crappy time of it Chair. You care too much to be a mere observer. I fear the shortcomings you highlight are more to do with your poison ivy coloured glasses than the targets you're quick to zero in on.
But hey, this is the sort of conversation we should have mano on mano. You need a reboot from someone you love….Unless you aspire to be known as the perpetually negative person that is an expert at finding fault and useless at identifying solutions….nobody wants to be that guy.
Life in NZ doesn't suck any where near as much as you would have us believe.
"..Life in NZ doesn't suck any where near as much as you would have us believe.'..
maybe not for you..
but for many it is..
It's less than some of the useless pricks they appoint cherry.
That needs addressing to, Gabby.
🙄
https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/museums/what-happened-when-trump-visited-the-african-american-history-museum-according-to-its-former-director/2019/08/30/5471494e-cb5a-11e9-a1fe-ca46e8d573c0_story.html?noredirect=on
Donald has come so far, a few years ago he would of said "They love me in Dutchland."
He probably did say that …these sorts of things are 'often tidied' up in print.
If it weren't so serious, it would be a riot having a cartoon character in the big chair at the White House….Foghorn Leghorn?
Sure, how many times has Trump visited the Netherlands?
"A plant-based diet with less meat and dairy could transform the country's health while also slashing emissions, MPs have been told.
OraTaio: NZ Climate and Health Council co-convenor Dr Alexandra Macmillan said if New Zealand reduced emissions from farming and dairy it would also boost the health of the population.
"New Zealand's diet at the moment is really unhealthy, it's causing a huge amount of disease," she said. "
https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/115370156/plant-based-diet-could-cut-disease-hospital-costs-and-emissions-nz-health-sector-says
(ahem..!..)
Indeed!
i thought shorthand would suffice..
This one (track below) goes out to all those that want to rain down on me. I've got my waterproof coat
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Plush-Eeyore-Coat-Yellow-Backpack-Disneyland-Horse-Donkey-Zebra-Cla/362730368862?hash=item54746a2f5e:g:PbEAAOSwP5JdEIfr
It must smell of piss on the inside.
Latest on Brexit. EU sets a line in rock.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49540681
Brexit: Michel Barnier [EU lead negotiator] rejects demands for backstop to be axed
and
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-war-erupts-tory-mps-19118531
Brexit war erupts as Tory MPs face down Boris Johnson's threat to cast them out.
Boris Johnson could withdraw the whip from Tory MPs who vote to block no-deal Brexit. But today the rebels faced him down – in a move that risks a historic split in the Conservative Party and the country…
MPs will table a law on Tuesday to stop Boris Johnson crashing the UK out of the EU on October 31 without a deal.
The Prime Minister, who has a majority of one, faces defeat if the MPs can pass the law in the tiny period of time before he suspends Parliament for five weeks, from around September 12….
A Government spokesperson said: “All options for party management are under consideration.”
The warning is an echo of David Cameron’s tweet four years ago that the country faced “a simple and inescapable choice – stability and strong Government with me, or chaos with Ed Miliband.”
A Sky News correspondent believes if the British opposition Labour Party doesn't appoint a new leader, a no deal brexit is on the cards
© 2019 Newstalk ZB, NZCity
Who the f**k is Enda Brady anyway.
"Appoint" a new leader- which planet is she on..Corbyn was elected by the membership.
I believe she is a he 😉
A big endian ,not a little endian.?
What do I know?
bastards
Voice from shadowy figure in the distance – 'Take care. You are making me angry. We have ways of dealing with outrageous dissent.'