I did make the effort to read the piece and at the end, I noted the author's 'credentials'. The infamous quote from one Mandy Rice-Davies immediately sprung to mind.
I see really good opinions regularly on TS. What about some of the writers seeking jobs on these news outlets? Or will they only accept RWs or dedicated controversialists? Well we have those too. Go for it I reckon, do what you love doing and get paid for it.
I've seen video of such happenings; filmed in Haiti. Very dramatic.
*sings “Do, do that voodoo, that you do, so well…”
By “She”, you meant Judith, right?
Opinion pieces that are penned by Mps staff seems to scraping the bottom of the barrel- wouldnt it normally be ghost written by BVV and appear under Seymours name.
Or is it the other way round and Seymour does some bullet points and his office writes it up, but Seymour is too scared of offending nationals big wigs such as Bridges, Bennett and co so hides behind his employee
Genetic engineering is not required when organic farming has the solutions, writes Philippa Jamieson.
"Former chief science adviser Sir Peter Gluckman has said that New Zealand could become a ''backwater'' if we don't loosen up our laws governing genetic engineering. The ODT editorial (19.8.19) also claimed we are ''in serious danger of becoming uncompetitive''.
On the contrary! We stand to gain by remaining GE-free, and even better, by transitioning towards organics. Demand for clean, green, GE-free, safe, healthy, ethical organic food is increasing year on year – around the world and here in Aotearoa New Zealand."
A small country like ours could be a niche provider of good quality food
We're an island, we don't have the problems of continental borders We are uniquely positioned to take advantage of this preference in the market
And apart from all that economic blather primarily we could do it through our commitment to more natural farming. Genetic selection and breeding , yes, forceful splicing( a kind of rape of a plant's integrity) , no
Good to see a rebuttal of Sir Peter Gluckman the scientist that Gnats love to love. I think John Key made some comment about specialist advisors – that for every gambit that the Left could produce, he could produce a different one from the Right. So it is all a battle for whoever will prevail, and the devil take the hindmost despite real outcomes that need precaution to prevent, or positive input to create and encourage.
Key got away with comparing legal opinions – which are just etheria- and science which is more rigorous and has a defined process to become peer reviewed .
The closest example is a court judgement after the opinions and facts have been presented.
Given that she's an organic food industry lobbyist, "Well she would say that, wouldn't she?" I expect a GE industry lobbyist would take a different view.
She would and they would. It's a nuanced discussion, that of organically-grown food in relation to that which is not grown that way. Some human industries might have been better to have been left as theory, rather than pursued, by humans; "germ warfare" for example, and I wonder if there's a bona fide way of knowing, at the outset, whether any particular path is a wise one to follow, or not. Clearly arguments can be made and won, even though the results might ultimately be catastrophic. Is there a way to judge, in the early stages, the wisdom of such proposals? The GE proposals are some that are met with strong feelings of opposition by people such as Philippa; is she correct in her position? Is it just "reasoned debate" that can determine the suitable path to take? Are the views of indigenous peoples the true measure of such proposals? I think that needs exploring.
The precautionary principle seems a useful frame to judge emerging tech. Do we actually *need GE foods? I can't see any reason why we do. If some consider it a nice to have, let's work with the precautionary principle first. Should have applied that to dairy conversions too.
There are some quite useful possibilities that come with the technology – soybeans modified to synthesize lysine for example, a protein chiefly found in fish, the absence of which slows growth rates in a number of domestic animals.
Unfortunately the technology seems to have been first adopted by the ravening loons at Monsanto, so they went after terminator genes and "roundup readiness". The former is a fairly reasonable use, the latter two not worth taking chances for.
I agree that Monsanto has taken things to whole new heights. However the soybean example would be a decades long experiment until we get large long term studies. If we look at the fat hypothesis, we can see half a century now of bad science and worse public health response and despite the problems with the hypothesis being well known for a decade we're still not moving on changing.
I just don't think we are anywhere near close to being able to responsibly assess and manage GE tech in the food chain. Part of that is capitalism and Monsanto culture, but those dynamics are throughout society including science and medicine.
The lysine soybeans were done long ago – Big Ag twisted Monsanto's arm.
Actually I think it can be assessed responsibly without too much trouble, the difficulty is once you say yes proponents will try to bring in everything, a very undesirable tendency.
There is also the thing that plant geneticists are possible well paid skilled occupations for a sustainable future society. NZ used to be good at that stuff, even without these new technologies.
An assessment of value versus risk, with a field trial imposition or exclusion for not meeting value minimums. So that a crop field tested for twenty years or so might be okayed for general release – if it has no complaints against it in that time.
The difficulty would be to create a system robust enough to remain operative under the reckless stupidity of the current opposition – and that would certainly be an almost insurmountable challenge.
The field test is to reveal problems not anticipated in the design phase. So going back to the lysine soybeans – have they any cultural (ie are they invasive or do they cross fertilize to a problematic degree) or do they develop toxicity or provoke allergic responses. If twenty years say no, they're not so different from comparable non GE soybeans and need not be restricted.
Plants designed for high pesticide resistance or to resist insect pests by accumulating toxins might have to reach a higher standard. But for example the GMO designed to restore the American Chestnut does not seem to be problematic, and subject to a trial, might be released.
“have they any cultural (ie are they invasive or do they cross fertilize to a problematic degree) or do they develop toxicity or provoke allergic responses”
How do you assess provoking allergic responses? Or other health issues? It sounds good in theory, but we know that people already have various reactions to eating soy, and that food intolerances seem to be increasing and we don’t yet know why. Add to that that science isn’t *that good at assessing combined and culmulative effects, nor understanding the synergistic aspect of plants that has come about via natural selection and how that impacts on humans (eg what’s the relationship of lysine to the other amino acids and other components and processes in the plant?), and I’ll invoke the precautionary principle again.
The point of lysine is that stock that lack it in their diets have their growth constrained – it need only be about 0.5 or 1 %. Traditionally this shortfall was made up with fishmeal, but growing demand versus declining supply has made that very expensive, and it promotes 'kill everything' fishing habits. I'm not sure if it is used for salmon feeds or the cooked legume based fish feeds they've developed in Oz, but in principle it would be sensible.
Allergy testing is usually by scratch tests, there are well standardized protocols.
This from weka is a very well put piece of truth that should be absorbed in every brain cell by those positing that increased technology and experimentation of any sort is what we need to overcome all our present and future problems.
I just don't think we are anywhere near close to being able to responsibly assess and manage GE tech in the food chain. Part of that is capitalism and Monsanto culture, but those dynamics are throughout society including science and medicine.
There is an interesting example coming up for consideration that perhaps we could look at and that is a new version of ryegrass that has been trialled for NZ (I understand) in the USA. Has every downside of its use been examined carefully and objectively? If we did decide to use it, would we have complete ownership of it? Or have we foregone that by not doing the trials ourselves. Can we trust the firm to maintain their integrity and commit themselves and their employees to handing back to us all our material and renounce any interest in it?
The main problem is the current separation of responsibility, of the people making the money, shareholders, and the people who end up paying for the fuckups, us!
Simply changing company law, so that those who profit from any technology, or any business activity, are jointly strictly liable personally under criminal law, with penalties commensurate with the costs, for any consequent damage, would stop a lot of enthusiasm for untested technology.
Monsanto would fast lose their enthusiasm for roundup, if they knew there is a certainty of having to prove dead bees wasn't them.
The precautionary principle seems a useful frame to judge emerging tech.
The precautionary principle is a handy tool for opposing the introduction of a new technology, because it demands the inventors prove a negative. It's not very useful outside of that context.
Do we actually *need GE foods?
Nope. But then, given that we made it through half a billion years of evolution without using any technology at all until the last hundred thousand, the same answer applies to all technology – from stone tools through to artificial intelligence.
That's not what I meant though. I mean us, now, in the middle of the post-industrial revolution. Some tech we need eg how to maintain nuclear reactors so they don't cause mass damage. We need cancer treatments. We need ways of growing food. We don't have a lot of alternatives for preventing nuclear fallout or cancer, we do have perfectly adequate alternatives to GE for food growing. If half the effort (science and political) went into that instead of GE, we'd be well on our way to reducing ag GHGs by now.
"The precautionary principle is a handy tool for opposing the introduction of a new technology, because it demands the inventors prove a negative. It's not very useful outside of that context."
not in this case. Proof of a negative isn't required. Pro-GE people might frame it like that but that misses the point of the precautionary principle. If there's reasonable grounds for caution because of the unknown nature of the proposal, then the inability to prove a negative is useful. It slows us down so we can make better decisions.
Opposition to GE is essentially religious in nature, so no amount of testing will ever be enough to convince opponents that the precautionary principle has been satisfied. I don't see a difference between that and asking people to prove a negative.
"Opposition to GE is essentially religious in nature"
Oh bullshit. Those who opposed to GE actually understand what the process is and how the result is an organism that cannot be proven to be safe, as opposed to organisms that we've been consuming for thousands of years that have only been changed by natural or specific selection. And if you claim GE is the same as selection by trait you don't understand what Genetic Engineering is. Though the name should give you some clue.
Evidence and rational argument is always a pretty good start.
I fully agree. But it can never be complete, conclusive, definitive, and absolute. Nor can it be the be-all-end-all. Nor can it nullify emotions. Nor can it decide moral dilemmas.
Bull. Any science that is carried out by people who want to make a profit from a technology should be treated with suspicion.
And the cost benefit ratio to the community should be assessed. Including the degree of risk if it turns out like the introduction of rabbits, down the track.
After enough testing to ensure that it is safe enough.
Not forgetting what companies did to farmers over patented crops.
There are also commercial reasons to remain GE free for export crops. There is a huge market around the world to people who don't want to be lab rats.
Incognito: I understand that. It's why evidence and rational argument is a good place to start, not the be-all and end-all.
Robert: if we start with evidence and rational argument, it's up to GE opponents to explain what harm they envisage from GE, not to issue an impossible demand for GE researchers to prove that no damage could possibly occur.
"Robert: if we start with evidence and rational argument, it's up to GE opponents to explain what harm they envisage from GE, not to issue an impossible demand for GE researchers to prove that no damage could possibly occur. "
I agree. Will you put forward your evidence and rational argument so we can have a discussion? It would be interesting to start with one simple claim/aspect, rather than a general one; much easier to contain the discussion and hopefully, reach agreement.
Robert: it would be simpler to start with one simple aspect if GE opponents were only opposed to particular individual instances of it and unopposed to it as a general principle, but that isn't the case. Blanket rejection of GE as a technology requires evidence and rational argument for that blanket rejection.
Don't you think that sellers of technology should show that it is safe.
We even have safety requirements for car manufacturers. Crop and pesticide developers, especially in the USA, are largely self regulated, with only the threat of individual law suits. As with tobacco, those take decades to affect profits enough to have any effect.
Don't you think that sellers of technology should show that it is safe.
I certainly do. Technology like this requires thorough testing in a rigorous regulatory environment. Which we have.
The flip side of that question is equally valid: don't you think that once thorough testing in a tightly-regulated environment shows a technology is safe, its use should be permitted?
to Robert at 2: " Demand for…..safe organic food is increasing etc" is why this great gran is (after early swim to keep fit enough to accomplish it) going to spend this gorgeous Dunedin day attending to my vegies and berries as have done for decades. wherever my home. Importantly, the taste of food fresh from the garden is inestimably better than almost anything from supermarket shelves, conveniently at hand and cheaper.
to Robert at 2.3.1. : enjoyed the smile…..NB that this great gran has enjoyed home grown food since babyhood and knows her onions regarding development in GE. Had gardens for my classes for decades …..also taught about greenhouse gas threat as soon as was in science journals.
Structural separation and a re-merger would mean the electricity industry would have approximately the same market structure that the National government imposed on the telecommunications industry when it forced Telecom to split into Spark and Chorus and decided that retailers of ultrafast broadband (UFB) should compete on an even footing.
…
Reintegrating the 51-per cent stated-owned generators and spinning off their retail arms into fully privatised businesses may ultimately prove necessary. That is if the industry is to meet the challenge of increasing electricity supply by 43 per cent to generate the 57 terawatt-hours (TWh) that Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment officials believe will be required by 2050, and the Government's goal of 100 per cent renewable generation by 2035.
You forgot one part about 'forced separation' of Telecom and Chorus
National government paid around $950 mill to buy 45% of Chorus AND provided 'soft loans' for Chorus to build Fibre street network PLUS tax payer funded installs ( $2000 each ?) from street backbone to ‘ fibre terminating unit’ inside the house.
There is a multi billion dollar public funded utility in controlled by a private business.
I always thought years ago that when Telecom was sold off ( so taxpayers wouldnt have to bail it out or fund its capital for expansion) that one day we would have to 'buy it back' – like we did with Kiwirail and Air NZ.
And by various means , we paid for it but didnt get the ownership !
Steven Joyce, negotiating genius. Even with Cunliffe having done the legwork on separation, his successor still managed to transfer more state money into private pockets to sweeten the deal.
Treasury must have had a seizure when they were asked to evaluate the proposal, dont recall much at the time .
Not only that but the whole fibre broadband tender from Chorus at the time was , as they say, 'non conforming' which it meant they didnt meet the terms and conditions. But they jacked up a backroom deal with Joyce with a few titbits for others to give a semblance of open tender.
Curran has been dragged over the coals for a meeting or two with Carol Hirschfeld and yet Joyce was in deals 'off the calendar' worth 'billions' and nothing in the media ( mostly because the main media journalists were 'his chooks' who were regularly fed inside stories- except the likes of Road Oram who were forced out)
Am I the only one who wishes Martyn Bradbury would shut the f*** up about everything 'woke'. He honestly has some serious obsession issues in that regard.
No, Bradbury's always been like this, or at least in the years I've seen him online. It's just another version of his anti-identity politics views. Work culture in NZ needs critiquing but he's not the person to do it because he's not very good at listening and just ends up polarising the left further.
Woke comes out of Black culture in the US, where it has a different meaning and usage.
Unfortunately, Thunberg was also greeted by a wave of misogynist nastiness, largely coming from allegedly grown men in both Europe and the United States. The attacks on Thunberg were in the same vein as those on Ocasio-Cortez, accusing her of being too stupid to know what she's talking about and denying that her voice is one worth honoring. A writer for the conservative Washington Examiner claimed that Thunberg is a victim of "child abuse" and that her mother "pimps their kid out," explicitly drawing a line between forced sex work and climate activism.
To Sacha at 5: that comment about "child abuse" towards Thunberg's parents reminds me of a BBC reporter at the Auckland CHOGM conference who asked me why a woman like me ( not defined) was holding an anti-nuke banner. In discussion I told him of young grandson also very perturbed about nuclear testing at that time, whereupon he replied that children shouldn't know about such things!
I suspect he had no idea that the protest was about Mururoa in particular but British and French interest in nukes as well, and was there to report clamour for arriving dignitaries.
'pimps their kid out'. Vile comment. We have had a few slurs here also. Some brains need to go in the wash and be hung to dry in sunlight. A natural disinfectant for some very degraded, besmirched humans.
With this trial of supplying lunches to some test schools, I ask why lunch, would not breakfast have a greater result? As then the students are in a better place for the entire school day not the last couple of hours.
i thought breakfast would be easier to make available and would also be able to more easily be adapted to cover most if not all dietary and cultural needs and can be provided on site. Lunch time is more compressed and I would imagine require heating of food with pre prepared being needed off site and food would be more difficult to cover varied needs.
Getting kids to school on time and settling them into a routine is not an easy task. Maybe providing breakfast is a good way of achieving that but it will cut into class time. Indeed, it would be better to provide sustenance at the beginning of the day but I think the practicality of that works against it.
Definitely the Kids are much easier to settle down in class if they have had breakfast. I found running them around the field first thing, especially the Boys also helped.
On Spirit of Adventure the kids started with star jumps and swimming around the ship in the morning, followed by a full cooked breakfast. No trouble getting them to pay attention.
Yes, and in some pre-schools too. They are mostly cereal and milk and the children can often help themselves. No big fuss is made about them, hence many people might not know. It's been hapening for years – at least 10 I would say
But clearly, while feeding kids at school/preschool helps somewhat, it hasn't done enough to stop the growing queues at food banks nor the growing demand for hardship grants.
It requires actions like, actually paying people enough money to live, instead of tax payers subsidizing underpaying employers. But that option doesn't seem to have arrived on Labours radar, and is anathema to National's "socialism for the rich".
Schools I have been in (Secondary sector) recognised that most kids ate most of their lunch at Morning Interval, so lengthened Morning Interval a bit, shifted Lunch back one hour, and had only one period after lunch instead of the old two periods, when difficult classes could be at their most nightmarish.
Because of this, I would seriously hope that these so-called 'lunches' will be given out at Morning Interval.
Lunch time is too late, and would minimise the benefit.
Hence, when I called out Cinny & Rosemary on their denial of the impact of poverty on the high number of suicides it wasn't without good reason
We have families where people are living with no hope and no opportunities. When someone feels like they have nowhere to go, one of the consequences is suicide.” – Far North Mayor John Carter.
The Morgan Foundation have been researching what works (see below) to ensure lower income families get the chance to thrive.
The evidence shows it is poverty itself that is at the heart of why lower income children and parents experience greater levels of mental distress.
In the book Pennies From Heaven, I describe research showing that being poor affects parents and their children’s wellbeing through increased stress.
Stress affects the way parents interact with children, it affects their family relationships, and the brain development of children themselves – all of which impacts on parents’ and children’s mental wellbeing.
Cash with no strings attached is a very powerful tool.
We researched the effectiveness of intensive in-home pre-schooling, parental training, housing interventions, food in schools and nurses in schools, additional cash for families with children, compulsory employment programmes for parents and more.
Nothing was as powerful in improving lives and preventing negative outcomes as unconditional cash.
Unconditional cash lifts the stress – other interventions may not
Cash without strings allows parents to alleviate their family’s particular source of stress – no family has exactly the same sources of stress or the same set of support needs. Cash does not proscribe or prescribe solutions.
Conditional or in-kind assistance (e.g. food in schools, welfare to work programmes) assume to know the source of all struggling families’ needs, or else place conditions on parents in return for that support (like low-paid casual work attendance). These assumptions and conditions can simply increase stress.
Hence, when I called out Cinny & Rosemary on their denial of the impact of poverty on the high number of suicides it wasn’t without good reason
However, IMO you are misinterpreting if not twisting their words and using this to vindicate yourself and/or your judgemental opinion in some way. Get over it! Sensitive topics such as suicide are not for scoring points of any kind.
You stubbornly refuse to listen and taken on board suggestions and advice. You stubbornly refuse to change your style and MO. You can get quite shitty when challenged. You stubbornly refuse to take responsibility for your role in the frequent pile-ons. Your hypercritical negative comments are nothing but your biased opinion and judgement but you don’t acknowledge or accept that.
I am getting fed up with your judgemental criticisms because they do not make for good robust debate. I’m giving you yet another warning to change your ways, because you can make a (highly) positive contribution here on this site even or particularly if it is criticism of the Government, past or present, instead of diverting attention away to yourself. Please take heed or sooner or later I will take away your privilege of commenting on this site irrespective of you being a leftie, which you most likely are; you are not the first leftie to receive a ban – Incognito]
totally support what you are saying about poverty as a cause of depression/suicide..
it does my head in how journalists don't seem to have the nous to ask emoting politicians that question..
it also does my head in how so many of the unblinking/in-lockstep supporters of this gimmint shift uneasily in their seats at this question – knowing their labour gummint (except for sole-parents) has done s.f.a. to address poverty…
which – can only be done – not by more emoting – but by increasing the incomes – by a substantial amount – of those poorest/most likely to kill themselves…
While the general point may true , comparing raw numbers with high numbers of teens/younger adults may just produce relatively higher numbers than areas with far less of those groups. Guess what demographics have large families ?
Its the equivalent of saying very busy roads have more crashes because they are 'dangerous', when the clue is they have massively higher numbers of cars.
Clearly, you overlooked this: Suicide rates are 90 per cent higher in areas of high deprivation. Thus, we are not only talking about the number of youth suicides.
In search of finding solutions we seek reasons why the problem is occurring.
And one common denominator in this problem is suicide rates are 90 per cent higher in areas (note, areas, not just the far north) of high deprivation.
While I have respect for Mike and know he speaks from experience in this matter, he doesn't speak for everyone. Moreover, the negative impacts of living in poverty helps form and develop ones inner critic. Putting people in that dark space.
I looked up archives for TS wanting to see ratings for this site which I know we have and couldn't strike the right heading. Could someone give me a steer for where to find them please? ( I was looking at Open Parachute and remembered that lprent mentioned that some other meter was being used.)
On how the rhetoric used by conservative apologists mirrors that used by pre-war supporters of the south.
After the El Paso shooting, Ben Shapiro — a popular conservative podcaster — asked Americans to draw a line between the few conservatives who are white supremacists and those who, like him, aren’t. Almost all Americans are “on the same side,” he said, and “we should be mourning together.” In his telling, we aren’t, for “one simple reason: Too many on the political left [are] castigating the character of those who disagree,” lumping conservatives and political nonconformists together with racists and xenophobes.
I grew up in a conservative family. The people I talk to most frequently, the people I call when I need help, are conservative. I’m not inclined to paint conservatives as thoughtless bigots. But a few years ago, listening to the voices and arguments of commentators like Shapiro, I began to feel a very specific deja vu I couldn’t initially identify. It felt as if the arguments I was reading were eerily familiar. I found myself Googling lines from articles, especially when I read the rhetoric of a group of people we could call the “reasonable right.”
[…]
So it felt frustrating: When I read Weiss, when I listened to Shapiro, when I watched Peterson or read the supposedly heterodox online magazine Quillette, what was I reminded of?
My childhood home is just a half-hour drive from the Manassas battlefield in Virginia, and I grew up intensely fascinated by the Civil War. I loved perusing soldiers’ diaries. During my senior year in college, I studied almost nothing but Abraham Lincoln’s speeches. While I wrote my thesis on a key Lincoln address, Civil War rhetoric was almost all I read: not just that of the 16th president but also that of his adversaries.
Thinking back on those debates, I finally figured it out. The reasonable right’s rhetoric is exactly the same as the antebellum rhetoric I’d read so much of. The same exact words. The same exact arguments. Rhetoric, to be precise, in support of the slave-owning South.
A petition calling on the government not to suspend Parliament has gained more than one million signatures, while more than 50 MPs from the main parties have also pledged to set up an alternative House of Commons if the suspension goes forward. …
In London, thousands of angry protesters on Saturday rallied outside Downing Street, the official residence of the prime minister, to oppose the controversial move scheduled for early September….
More than 80 protests across the UK on Saturday were organised by the anti-Brexit campaign group Another Europe is Possible and were led by Momentum – a left-wing caucus within the opposition Labour Party. The organisers named the protests "Stop the Coup" in reference to Johnson's plans.
The gathering in London brought together people from a range of backgrounds.
Paddy Gemmell, 15, a student from London, said the suspension of Parliament is "undemocratic".
"Since people voted for Brexit many have begun to understand what that actually means and have changed their minds – their voices should be heard," he said.
Lies were told before the vote by the Remainers you only read the Guardian who are hyper partisan on remain at all costs so they ignore all the nonsense they told before the referendum vote. It was so bad they even had a code name for it Project Fear
"In May 2016, then-chancellor George Osborne warned leaving the EU could cause a drop in house prices of 18% – it didn’t materialise and 11 months later, Nigel Farage was crowing as prices continued to rise."
George Osborne, the then Chancellor, said in a BBC Radio 4 interview that leaving the European Union would cause "financial instability" and leave "no economic plan," which would need an immediate response from the government. "There would have to be increases in tax and cuts in public spending to fill the black hole," he said.
Good to see the backlash against this odious decision to auction off this significant Māori cloak by the english. This is not the 1840s anymore… This taonga needs to be sent back to the iwi in NZ where it belongs free of charge instead of living in a cupboard.
Indeed vile abuse and threats are not the best way to negotiate but I'd say that since Maori tried negotiating respectfully with English settlers 200 years ago and were treated to vile abuse, their descendants feel no obligation now to conduct themselves with much decorum towards these English.
Hurt people hurt. For generations.
This cloak meant nothing to these people for a hundred years and now that it's been valued in monetary terms they no longer care to return it to Ngāti Maniapoto. It means money to them, nothing else.
What about others like those with endemitriosis? – just affects women. Or Chronic Fatigue Syndrome – they're too tired to get up and do something for themselves, No cancer is the in-disease at the present.
It was labour party election policy to establish a new 'agency' Look it up
Maybe cancer is the 'in disease' because it has in some instances high death rates compared to your ridiculous 'chronic fatigue syndrome' ( Is there even a established treatment or new medication that can be funded – didnt think so)
Those of us who have cancers would prefer it not to be the in-disease 🙂
I have a resection due in ten days, so I have a stake in the matter. My fourth diagnosis so far. It does have an emotional component for many people and I can see that others with life threatening and serious diseases would feel the same about their particular affliction.
Money does help. Last night I attended a support group meeting of fellow sufferers and partners. One man has a three monthly drug to take. He saw the price tag once. $1003 for one dose. Effective though. A good man and husband is kept alive and functioning by the state's expenditure.
Is it possible that someone who has had cancer can understand that others are aching for assistance, who are not faced with a terminal disease. Such a lot of cancer sufferers wish to have a longer life without consideration of the cost. They don't want to die, they don't want to pay out their own money to buy the expensive nostrums, and they don't care that the country already is not providing basic services for young needy people.
Perhaps we should have a voucher system, a lifetime allowance with a few allowances for rare cases. And age needs to become of importance. Once you are over 70? If not then, what would be reasonable, 75, 80? And then palliative care only.
Thanks for the response, greywarshark. This is a difficult issue, not because I have again an operable cancer, but because it gets into issues such as you have raised about age, whether we should countenance triage with age as a consideration, use of available resources with a voucher system to restrict overuse of resources, and more assistance to people with non-terminal but needed services.
Firstly, I reject the ageism. I am about to turn 70 but a form of selectivity based on age is a very dangerous notion considering what else may be used as a criterion like mental health, cretinism, genetic disorders, putative contributions to society, membership of social outgroups based on ethnicity, lifestyles, religion, immigration status. You see where this can lead?
I also reject your assertion that older people don't care about provision of services to needy young people. That is also ageist, wrong and unworthy.
I reject your assertion that they don't want to pay out of their own money for what you dismiss as 'nostrums', which is defined as "a medicine prepared by an unqualified person, especially one that is not considered effective."
greywarshark, your style of argument is very difficult to wish to continue with. I thank you for your response but earnestly ask that you full consider how you argue and what you are actually espousing.
I understand that you are arguing for a group either young or missing out in your view on adequate services and treatment. If you have someone in that situation, then I feel for you.
There are other answers than dumping on other groups.
A huge amount of what we argue about concerns allocation of resources.
The resources are there. Do we want to do this or do that? Defence or health? Bailouts for failed businesses or education? Tax breaks or prison reform? Support for films, world rugby and yachting cups or mental health?
Maybe there is still not enough money. And consider that old folk have children and grandchildren that they wish the best for. And vice versa. I am unhappy to see this discussion descend into an "us versus them" scenario.
Better that we promote our causes, acknowledge the shortfalls and discuss how we best justly allocate our resources based on reason, actual need and fairness.
Are we getting value for money out of our parliamentarians (from all parties)?
Or do we pay them too much?
The PM currently gets about nine times the average wage. While others receive less, they still receive more than the average worker.
And considering the poor state of the nation (and not just of late) is paying them so much really attracting quality representation?
Moreover, is paying them so much (putting them in the top one per cent of income earners) a problem (as in, with high incomes as such, so many of them are now out of touch with your average voter) thus continually fail to improve life for the majority?
Is it long past time we reset (lower) the incomes of our MPs?
The Chairman, I'll tell you just one story I know to be true. A former MP had two terms in a marginal seat. The night he lost the seat someone burned down the barn on a little farmlet he had. No employer would give this former MP a job. He had to subsist on his farmlet. He was generous with his own money whilst an MP. I know.
There are risks involved in being an MP. It's a hard life. A British MP was murdered, remember.
Tne last point I make is one I made to Geoffrey Palmer many years ago. We pay our MPs, judges etc well to lessen the threat of corruption and bribery. It is one of the fair prices of democracy.
So we are paying them exorbitant amounts of danger money? When others (such as police officers) in dangerous jobs aren't paid nowhere near as much.
As for averting the potential for corruption, some would argue that's largely a fail. Moreover, we can and should better police that.
[Attributing words, feelings, emotions, beliefs, or motives to other commenters does not make for a constructive debate. If you feel the need to make assumptions, you must check these before you take them as a given. Please pay close attention to mac1’s first sentence in his response @ 14.1.1.1 to you – Incognito]
I think you have taken one part of what I said, exaggerated it hugely, and attributed to me beliefs that I do not have.
To respond to your point re corruption, yes we need to have and I believe do have sufficient safeguards regarding police and the judiciary.
But, paying well enough that there is no temptation to augment the income with a little under-counter extra is a good strategy. Better than paying very good salaries to incorrupt guardians to oversee our guardian police, judiciary and MPs because if the guardians of the guardians are corruptible through insufficient financial independence, then we're back worse than when we started. Whew!
There are risks involved in being an MP. It's a hard life. A British MP was murdered, remember.
The above quote were your words.
Therefore, I asked (not exaggerated it hugely and attributed to your beliefs) if we are paying them exorbitant amounts of danger money?
Which you have yet to clarify.
But, paying well enough that there is no temptation to augment the income with a little under-counter extra is a good strategy.
If our policing of this was/is fully robust we wouldn't require this strategy.
Moreover, regardless how much we pay our MP's they could still be open to corruption as those (affluent multinational corporations for argument sake) that wanted to bribe them would merely offer them more to sway them.
Therefore, it really falls down to how well this type of corruption is policed.
I don't think the salaries are particularly exhorbitant. It's an important job with significant responsibilities, and for every one who walks into a highly paid lobbying or directorship job related to their political life, there are several who simply go back to their homes and former careers.
And yes, there is a reputational (and sometimes physical) risk associated with the job.
Should they be paid more than cops or whatever? I think a better equivalence would be between politicians and upper management. 120 people in charge of a $300 billion, 4.7million person organisation? From that perspective, they're cheap.
I don't think the salaries are particularly exhorbitant.
In comparison to the average worker, it's exorbitant.
In comparison to a CEO, not so much.
I'm not denying there is a risk to the job. But there are risks with many jobs that don't reward nowhere as much.
And just because they oversee a lot (money/population) doesn't mean they are doing a good job of it, thus they should be rewarded on performance on top of a far lower base salary, which takes into account how well those on the bottom are impacted from their decisions/oversight.
I prefer pay-based performance; employer unions generally aren't too keen on performance-based pay.
“And then there’s the opposition. Where are they?
National has lost the CGT as an attack weapon against the Government – they’re going to have to pony up for a bit more than the great slushy machine scandal of 2019.
They should be all over Tomorrows Schools – why are National MP Nikki Kaye’s public meetings in school halls not getting more coverage or cut through? Why is her voice not louder?
What about NZ First’s view on Tomorrow’s Schools? Why are they so quiet on this? Are they keeping their powder dry until the last minute, much like they did on the CGT?
Another concern out of the discussion being flushed through the public domain currently is the focal points of conversation. Why are we talking about yet more increased bureaucracy, when we should be talking about teacher shortages, teacher churn, the ageing teaching cohort, lack of male teachers, teachers being under-paid.
What about the hefty union involvement in teaching? Union leaders blocking discussion around performance-based pay? Making good teachers feel as though demanding money based on productivity is criminal. Worse, ensuring under-performing teachers are a protected species.“
Let me put it another way: someone works 40hr/wk for $50k. Would you expect them to throw their hat in the ring, quit that permanent job for maybe three years on the same rate, mostly working longer hours based in another town, and bunging you in the public eye?
They are still paid rather well (albeit less) if they aren't re-elected.
Let me put it another way: someone works 40hr/wk for $50k. Would you expect them to throw their hat in the ring, quit that permanent job for maybe three years on the same rate, mostly working longer hours based in another town, and bunging you in the public eye?
On performance based pay they still have the opportunity to do a good job and be better compensated. Giving them the incentive to do better.
It's performance-based job retention. Judged by their employers, the electorate.
"Performance-based pay" is a stupid idea for anything that doesn't have clearly quantifiable benchmarks with simple inputs that are largely in the control of the worker. But it sounds good when applied to teachers and politicians, even if the people calling for it have no idea about how to implement it fairly both for the employee and the people the employee is supposed to serve.
Reading and thinking over the thread, I'm just getting fucked off. If we pay MPs fuckall, then only the rich can afford to be MPs. If we pay them an average wage, then no average worker would risk their livelihood or the family's income for precarious employment that has no financial advantage.
Not that you've stated how performance would be judged (or by whom), or the vague ballpark of payscales you'd like to see for politicians.
You're just, yet again, spouting right wing platitudes that serve only to make the rich more powerful and the poor more easy to get removed from the political system.
It's performance-based job retention. Judged by their employers, .
Unfortunately, the electorate (their employers) don't currently set or have any input on their salaries. Nor can the public fully dismiss them. Whether or not they are re-elected they are still employed in opposition. Unless of course they don't make that 5% threshold. Therefore, it's not really (albeit to a very limited extent) performance-based job retention.
I agree, clearly quantifiable benchmarks are vital in performance base pay. Hence, it's not suited to all work places/professions. However, I think we could make it work for politicians.
I disagree that only the rich would be able to afford to be an MP. As the base rate would be reasonable.
Moreover, it’s a privilege to serve the people. We should be seeking those that are not only capable but have a genuine passion and desire for it. Not those only seeking a huge salary. Additionally, there is little risk. The average wage is alright (albeit they would be getting above that) and the job is fairly secure. Even in opposition, one would be paid. On top of that, some like to travel and the down times (holidays/breaks) are rather generous. Making up for time away from home. And their pension scheme is good. It may not suit all, but not all are suited to every job. So I don't see any justification for your anger.
Not that you've stated how performance would be judged (or by whom), or the vague ballpark of payscales you'd like to see for politicians.
That would be up for public debate, after all, we are their employers.
I agree, clearly quantifiable benchmarks are vital in performance base pay. Hence, it's not suited to all work places/professions. However, I think we could make it work for politicians.
How? Why do you think that? Every quanta for a politician I can think of is either easily rortable or doesn't reflect quality of performance.
And the public does get to dismiss them every three years.
I disagree that only the rich would be able to afford to be an MP. As the base rate would be reasonable.
Reasonable for a permanent average job. Not for someone to risk their family's livelihood on by quitting steady, permanent employment. That's why it would be a folly for the rich, not a realistic proposition for the average person.
I’m angry because I think you should know this, whether you are genuinely left wing or a tory in disguise.
Reading and thinking over the thread, I'm just getting fucked off. If we pay MPs fuckall, then only the rich can afford to be MPs.
Currently, once one becomes an MP they become one of the elite (the rich) hence part of the problem we need to solve.
And the public does get to dismiss them every three years.
Not if they merely end up in opposition, thus still on the payroll.
How? Why do you think that?
Glad you asked. By further empowering voters.
Being an MP is a extremely unique occupation. As in, your employer is all of us.
Therefore, I suggest along with the public having input on their base rate, we should also be given the opportunity to determine their performance rate. This could be done every three years at election.
The public could/should be allowed to have input in setting a performance scale range and decide on how they individually feel the Government/MP's have performed. Giving the Government/MP's a further incentive to better work for the majority.
If we pay MPs fuckall, then only the rich can afford to be MPs.
Currently, once one becomes an MP they become one of the elite (the rich) hence part of the problem we need to solve.
That doesn't address the point I raised.
And the public does get to dismiss them every three years.
Not if they merely end up in opposition, thus still on the payroll.
Which they can only do if they maintain the support of their electorate or their party. Otherwise, they're out.
Therefore, I suggest along with the public having input on their base rate, we should also be given the opportunity to determine their performance rate. This could be done every three years at election.
🙄
How? You're not actually stating a position.
In today's gig economy, not many are lucky enough to have a permanent secure job. Moreover, if one enters parliament via Labour or National their employment is largely secure by either being in Government or in opposition, thus on the public payroll.
Not for someone to risk their family's livelihood on by quitting steady, permanent employment.
In today's gig economy, not many are lucky enough to have a permanent secure job. Moreover, if one enters parliament via Labour or National their employment is largely secure by either being in Government or in opposition, thus on the public payroll.
If MP's need lots of money to refrain from unethical or corrupt behavior, then I think they are not the sort of people we need in Parliament.
Obviously, having some of the highest MP salaries in the Western world, has failed in this regard. With many instances of unethical and dis honest behavior.
Salaries do make it affordable for normal people to be in Parliament. Before MP 's were paid, Parliament was almost exclusively idle absentee landowners.
I don't see why they should be paid more than a school senior teacher, however.
Pensions commensurate with those paid to military personnel would be more appropriate than the current fortune.
The other problem is the make up of Parliament. A distinct lack of tradespeople for one. And way to many lawyers and failed businessmen.
In the grand scheme of things, the money is a drop in the ocean. Many public servants are paid more.
The role needs to be something capable people aspire to. Spending weeks away from home and pulling a living wage would result in representation that would have you posting non-stop.
Chairman, I think if you lived in The Garden of Eden you'd spend your time lodging complaints. "Dear God, I saw a weed amongst the Lavender yesterday."
I'm sorry you find living in New Zealand such a grind. I don't suppose it's going to make you feel much better but I love it.
However, it's doesn't change the reality of the stats – i.e. the rich are getting richer as more people are queuing for food and hardship grants, while a growing number are sleeping rough.
Ask them if they think politicians are value for money and working hard for them.
It's underwritten by "If you don't want me to top myself, give me money."
I think a better approach is…"Of course you have value and can make as much money as your imagination will allow you to. Come with me and I'll show you how."
As Mike King says, it's about our inner critics. We all have them, it's about where we're at with our inner critics. We need to learn to be there for those that are carrying obese inner critics. Poor, rich, brown, white, whatever.
Chairman, I think if you lived in The Garden of Eden you'd spend your time lodging complaints. "Dear God, I saw a weed amongst the Lavender yesterday."
The discussion isn't about me. Try addressing the points I made.
Not all are doing badly, The rich are getting richer.
And some may argue (which I am) that this comes down to (in part) because of policy made by politicians that are out of touch with the needs of the majority.
Additionally, re mac1's claim re threats being made on politicians, perhaps they wouldn't be threaten as much if they better represented the majority and not the elite (like them) getting richer .
I think The Chairman's problems with NZ would be all fixed if the government gave him an extra $1000 a week. I think it's more about you than you acknowledge.
The government is never going to make anyone well off Chairman. Those that want to be comfortable will need to make their own arrangements.
I think The Chairman's problems with NZ would be all fixed if the government gave him an extra $1000 a week. I think it's more about you than you acknowledge.
Again, it's not about me. Try again.
The government is never going to make anyone well off Chairman
Well, no CGT sure helps property flippers build their wealth. And don't they (a number of politicians) along with their high incomes have property investment?
Geez, you seem very concerned about other peoples' money. How much have you got?
It sort of is about you. It's you that is perpetually disgruntled. I'm cranking snapper and singing 3 chord anthems at the pub.
I'm quick to poke finger at a politician in here, but life in NZ? I don't slag NZ, I love living in New Zealand.
You seem to be having a crappy time of it Chair. You care too much to be a mere observer. I fear the shortcomings you highlight are more to do with your poison ivy coloured glasses than the targets you're quick to zero in on.
But hey, this is the sort of conversation we should have mano on mano. You need a reboot from someone you love….Unless you aspire to be known as the perpetually negative person that is an expert at finding fault and useless at identifying solutions….nobody wants to be that guy.
Life in NZ doesn't suck any where near as much as you would have us believe.
In his upcoming memoir, newly appointed Smithsonian Secretary Lonnie G. Bunch III describes the private tour he gave President Trump of the National Museum of African American History and Culture, recalling that Trump’s reaction to the Dutch role in the global slave trade was, “You know, they love me in the Netherlands.”
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OraTaio: NZ Climate and Health Council co-convenor Dr Alexandra Macmillan said if New Zealand reduced emissions from farming and dairy it would also boost the health of the population.
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I notice a few regulars no longer allow public access to the site counters. This may happen accidentally when the blog format is altered. If your blog is unexpectedly missing or the numbers seem very low please check this out. After correcting send me the URL for your ...
As we welcome in the new year, our focus is on continuing to keep New Zealanders safe and moving forward with our economic recovery. There’s a lot to get on with, but before we say a final goodbye to 2020, here’s a quick look back at some of the milestones ...
The Prime Minister of New Zealand Jacinda Ardern and the Prime Minister of the Cook Islands Mark Brown have announced passengers from the Cook Islands can resume quarantine-free travel into New Zealand from 21 January, enabling access to essential services such as health. “Following confirmation of the Cook Islands’ COVID ...
Jobs for Nature funding is being made available to conservation groups and landowners to employ staff and contractors in a move aimed at boosting local biodiversity-focused projects, Conservation Minister Kiritapu Allan has announced. It is estimated some 400-plus jobs will be created with employment opportunities in ecology, restoration, trapping, ...
The Government has approved an exception class for 1000 international tertiary students, degree level and above, who began their study in New Zealand but were caught offshore when border restrictions began. The exception will allow students to return to New Zealand in stages from April 2021. “Our top priority continues ...
Today’s deal between Meridian and Rio Tinto for the Tiwai smelter to remain open another four years provides time for a managed transition for Southland. “The deal provides welcome certainty to the Southland community by protecting jobs and incomes as the region plans for the future. The Government is committed ...
Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has appointed Anna Curzon to the APEC Business Advisory Council (ABAC). The leader of each APEC economy appoints three private sector representatives to ABAC. ABAC provides advice to leaders annually on business priorities. “ABAC helps ensure that APEC’s work programme is informed by business community perspectives ...
The Government’s prudent fiscal management and strong policy programme in the face of the COVID-19 global pandemic have been acknowledged by the credit rating agency Fitch. Fitch has today affirmed New Zealand’s local currency rating at AA+ with a stable outlook and foreign currency rating at AA with a positive ...
The Government is putting in place a suite of additional actions to protect New Zealand from COVID-19, including new emerging variants, COVID-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins said today. “Given the high rates of infection in many countries and evidence of the global spread of more transmissible variants, it’s clear that ...
$36 million of Government funding alongside councils and others for 19 projects Investment will clean up and protect waterways and create local jobs Boots on the ground expected in Q2 of 2021 Funding part of the Jobs for Nature policy package A package of 19 projects will help clean up ...
The commemoration of the 175th anniversary of the Battle of Ruapekapeka represents an opportunity for all New Zealanders to reflect on the role these conflicts have had in creating our modern nation, says Associate Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage Kiri Allan. “The Battle at Te Ruapekapeka Pā, which took ...
Babies born with tongue-tie will be assessed and treated consistently under new guidelines released by the Ministry of Health, Associate Minister of Health Dr Ayesha Verrall announced today. Around 5% to 10% of babies are born with a tongue-tie, or ankyloglossia, in New Zealand each year. At least half can ...
The prisoner disorder event at Waikeria Prison is over, with all remaining prisoners now safely and securely detained, Corrections Minister Kelvin Davis says. The majority of those involved in the event are members of the Mongols and Comancheros. Five of the men are deportees from Australia, with three subject to ...
Travellers from the United Kingdom or the United States bound for New Zealand will be required to get a negative test result for COVID-19 before departing, and work is underway to extend the requirement to other long haul flights to New Zealand, COVID-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins confirmed today. “The new PCR test requirement, foreshadowed last ...
Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has added her warm congratulations to the New Zealanders recognised for their contributions to their communities and the country in the New Year 2021 Honours List. “The past year has been one that few of us could have imagined. In spite of all the things that ...
Attorney-General and Minister for the Environment David Parker has congratulated two retired judges who have had their contributions to the country and their communities recognised in the New Year 2021 Honours list. The Hon Tony Randerson QC has been appointed a Companion of the New Zealand Order of Merit for ...
Minister for Pacific Peoples Aupito William Sio says the New Year’s Honours List 2021 highlights again the outstanding contribution made by Pacific people across Aotearoa. “We are acknowledging the work of 13 Pacific leaders in the New Year’s Honours, representing a number of sectors including health, education, community, sports, the ...
The Government’s investment in digital literacy training for seniors has led to more than 250 people participating so far, helping them stay connected. “COVID-19 has meant older New Zealanders are showing more interest in learning how to use technology like Zoom and Skype so they can to keep in touch ...
A nationwide poll has found majority support for the government to continue to closely monitor abortions in New Zealand and the reasons for it, despite the Ministry of Health recently suggesting that there is not a use for collecting much of this information. ...
The out-of-control growth in gangs, gun crime, and violent gang activity is exposing our communities to dangerous levels of violence that will inevitably end in tragedy, says Sensible Sentencing Trust. “The recent incidents of people being shot and ...
Successive governments have paid lip service to our productivity challenge but have failed to deliver. It's time to establish a Productivity Council charged with prioritising efforts. ...
Understanding the connection between chronic fatigue syndrome and ‘long Covid’ might be helpful in treating symptoms that doctors will find all too easy to dismiss.When people began to report signs of “long Covid”, characterised by a lack of full recovery from the virus and debilitating fatigue, I recognised their stories. ...
Nadine Anne Hura, who never considered herself an artist, reflects on what art and making has taught her.I couldn’t clean or cook or wash the clothes, but I could sew. That’s a lie, I’m a terrible sewer, but I left work early to fossick around in the $1 bin of ...
Summer reissue: In the final episode of this season of Bad News, Alice is joined by Billy T award winner Kura Forrester to look at how well we’re honouring Te Tiriti o Waitangi in 2020.First published September 3, 2020.Independent journalism depends on you. Help us stay curious in 2021. The ...
Lucy Revill’s The Residents is a blog about daily life in Wellington that has morphed into a stylish, low-key coffee-table book featuring interviews and photographic portraits of 38 Wellingtonians. In this extract, Revill profiles Eboni Waitere, owner and executive director of Huia Publishers. The Residents features names like Monique Fiso ...
Pacific Media Watch correspondent The pro-independence conflict in West Papua with a missionary plane reportedly being shot down at Intan Jaya has stirred contrasting responses from the TNI/POLRI state sources, church leaders and an independence leader. A shooting caused a plane to catch fire on 6 January 2021 in the ...
“Last year ACT warned that rewarding protestors at Ihumātao with taxpayer money would promote further squatting. We just didn’t think it would happen as quickly as it is in Shelly Bay” says ACT Leader David Seymour. “The prosperity of all ...
Our kindly PM registered her return to work as leader of the nation with yet another statement on the Beehive website, the second in two days (following her appointment of Anna Curzon to the APEC Business Advisory Council on Wednesday). It’s great to know we don’t have to check with ...
A Pūhoi pub is refusing to remove a piece of memorabilia bearing the n-word from its walls. Dr Lachy Paterson looks at the history of the word here, and New Zealand’s complicity in Britain’s shameful slave trading past.Content warning: This article contains racist language and images.On a pub wall in ...
Supermarket shoppers looking for citrus are seeing a sour trend at the moment – some stores are entirely tapped out of lemons. But why? Batches of homemade lemonade will be taking a hit this summer, with life not giving New Zealand shoppers lemons. Prices are high at supermarkets and grocers that ...
You’re born either a cheery soul or a gloomy one, reckons Linda Burgess – but what happens when gene pools from opposite ends of the spectrum collide?In our shoeboxes of photos that we have to sort out before we die or get demented – because who IS that kid on ...
Summer reissue: Prisoner voting rights are something that few in government seem particularly motivated to do anything about. Could a catchy charity single help draw attention to the issue?First published September 1, 2020.Independent journalism depends on you. Help us stay curious in 2021. The Spinoff’s journalism is funded by its ...
Hundreds more Cook Islanders are expected to begin criss-crossing the Pacific, Air NZ will triple the number of flights to Rarotonga next week, and about 300 managed isolation places will be freed up for Kiwis returning from other parts of the world. When Thomas Tarurongo Wynne took a job in Wellington at ...
SPECIAL REPORT:By Ena Manuireva in Auckland It seems a long time ago – some 124 days – since Mā’ohi Nui deplored its first covid-19 related deaths of an elderly woman on 11 September 2020 followed by her husband just hours later, both over the age of 80. The local ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By John Turnbull, Postdoctoral research associate, UNSW A global coalition of more than 50 countries have this week pledged to protect over 30% of the planet’s lands and seas by the end of this decade. Their reasoning is clear: we need greater protection ...
The Reserve Bank Governor’s apology and claim he will ‘own the issue’ is laughable given the lack of answers and timing of its release. Jordan Williams, a spokesman for the Taxpayers’ Union said: “It’s been five days since they came clean, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Olga Kokshagina, Researcher – Innovation & Entrepreneurship, RMIT University Are too many online meetings and notifications getting you down? Online communication tools – from email to virtual chat and video-conferencing – have transformed the way we work. In many respects they’ve made ...
The Reserve Bank acknowledges information about some of its stakeholders may have been breached in a malicious data hack. The Governor of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand has commissioned an independent inquiry into how stakeholders' information was compromised when hackers breached a file sharing service used by the bank. “We ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Caitlin Syme, PhD in Vertebrate Palaeontology, The University of Queensland This story contains spoilers for Ammonite Palaeontologist Mary Anning is known for discovering a multitude of Jurassic fossils from Lyme Regis on England’s Dorset Coast from the age of ten in 1809. ...
A tribute to the sitcoms of old? In the Marvel Cinematic Universe? Yup. Sam Brooks reviews the audacious WandaVision.Nothing sends a chill up my spine like the phrase “Marvel Cinematic Universe”. Since launching in 2008 with Iron Man, the MCU has become a shambling behemoth, with over 23 films (not ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Clare Corbould, Associate Professor, Contemporary Histories Research Group, Deakin University The alt-right, QAnon, paramilitary and Donald Trump-supporting mob that stormed the US Capitol on January 6 claimed they were only doing what the so-called “founding fathers” of the US had done in ...
The Point of Order Ministerial Workload Watchdog and our ever-vigilant Trough Monitor were both triggered yesterday by an item of news from the office of Conservation Minister Kititapu Allan. The minister was drawing attention to new opportunities to dip into the Jobs for Nature programme (and her statement was the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Andreas Kupz, Senior Research Fellow, James Cook University In July 1921, a French infant became the first person to receive an experimental vaccine against tuberculosis (TB), after the mother had died from the disease. The vaccine, known as Bacille Calmette-Guérin (BCG), is ...
The first Friday Poem for 2021 is by Wellington poet Rebecca Hawkes.While you were partying I studied the bladeI your ever-loving edgelord God-emperorof the bot army & bitcoin mine subsistingon an IV drip of gamer girl bathwaterfinally my lonelinessis your responsibility………. you seeI need a girlfriend assigned to me by the ...
The arming of police officers in Canterbury was inevitable with the growing numbers and brazenness of the gangs across the country – this should be a permanent step, says Sensible Sentencing Trust. “It is unfortunate that we have come to the point ...
Celebrations in Aotearoa New Zealand to mark the entry into force of the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons (TPNW) will begin on Thursday 21 January with ICAN Aotearoa New Zealand’s Wellington and online event, and continue on Friday ...
Hardly anyone is using their Covid Tracer app. Something needs to change.As the mercury approaches 30°C in Aotearoa, there is a good deal of slipping and slopping, but, let’s face it, piss-all scanning. As few as around 500,000 QR codes are being scanned by users of the NZ Covid Tracer ...
On the East Coast, a group of Māori-owned enterprises is innovating to create new revenue streams while doing what they love.New Zealand’s remote and sparsely populated regions are typically not the best places to create thriving brick-and-mortar businesses. In small communities miles away from any major centres, there are so ...
As we reach the height of summer, it’s not too late to do a safety check on your gas bottle. The Environmental Protection Authority’s Safer Homes programme has some tips and tricks to keep in mind before you fire up the grill. "If you’ve ...
The only published and available best-selling indie book chart in New Zealand is the top 10 sales list recorded every week at Unity Books’ stores in High St, Auckland, and Willis St, Wellington.AUCKLAND1Troy: The Siege of Troy Retold by Stephen Fry (Michael Joseph, $37)If you’re in any way unsure about ...
“We may as well knock on the gang headquarters around this country and tell them we all give up," says Darroch Ball co-leader of Sensible Sentencing Trust. “It is simply outrageous that violent offender, James Tuwhangai, has been released from ...
Analysis by Keith Rankin. Ireland, Israel, and Lebanon. Chart by Keith Rankin. The countries with the most recent large outbreaks of Covid19 are those with large numbers of recent recorded cases, but yet to record the deaths that most likely will result. In this camp, this time, are Ireland, Israel ...
RuPaul is in Aotearoa, kicking back in managed isolation to await the filming of an Australasian version of her hugely popular reality show Drag Race. But not everyone is happy about, explains Eli Matthewson. The world’s most famous drag queen, RuPaul, is in New Zealand, the government confirmed earlier this week ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Gregory Melleuish, Professor, School of Humanities and Social Inquiry, University of Wollongong What can we make of Clive Palmer? This week, he announced his United Australia Party (UAP) would not contest the upcoming West Australian state election on March 13. After a ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Gisela Kaplan, Emeritus Professor in Animal Behaviour, University of New England Have you ever seenmagpies play-fighting with one another, or rolling around in high spirits? Or an apostlebird running at full speed with a stick in its beak, chased by a ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jen Jackson, Program Director, Centre for Policy Development, and Associate Professor of Education, Mitchell Institute, Victoria University Childcare centres across Australia are suffering staff shortages, which have been exacerbated by the COVID crisis. Many childcare workers across Australia left when parents started ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jonathan Barrett, Senior Lecturer in Taxation, Te Herenga Waka — Victoria University of Wellington Rhetoric plays an important role in tax debate and therefore tax policy. If your side manages to gain traction in the public imagination with labels such as “death ...
*This article was first published on The Conversation and is republished with permission* Whoever leads the Republican Party post-Trump will need to consider how they will maintain the rabid support of his “base”, while working to regain more moderate voters who defected from the party in the 2020 election. In a historic ...
Covid-19 fears accelerated banks’ moves towards cashless transactions. But the Reserve Bank is fighting to protect cash, and those who still use it. ...
Good morning and welcome to this one-off edition of The Bulletin, covering major stories from the last few weeks.A quick preamble to this: Today’s special edition of The Bulletin is all about filling you in on some of the stories you might have missed over the summer period. Perhaps you had ...
Summer reissue: In this episode of Bad News, Alice Snedden is forced to confront her own mortality before hosting a very special dinner party to get to grips with the euthanasia debate.First published August 27, 2020.Independent journalism depends on you. Help us stay curious in 2021. The Spinoff’s journalism is ...
The contrast between the words of John F Kennedy and today’s anti-democratic demagogue is inescapable, writes Dolores Janiewski I still remember three eloquent speeches by an American president. One happened in January 1961 and spoke about a “torch being passed to a new generation”. Two years later and one day apart, ...
The debate over cutting down a large macrocarpa to make way for a new residential development has highlighted a wider agreement between developers and protesters: that we also need to be planting far more trees. At the corner of Great North Road and Ash Street in Avondale, a 150-year-old macrocarpa stands its ground ...
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As CEO of her iwi rūnanga, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer was on the frontline protecting her community during the first outbreak of Covid-19. Now that more virulent strains threaten to breach our borders, the Māori Party co-leader calls on the government to introduce much stricter measures.As we enter the New Year I ...
The Prada Cup challenger series starts today. Suzanne McFadden goes behind the scenes of the world's only live yachting regatta to see what's in store for the next five weeks. At 6am on race days, Iain Murray wakes up and immediately checks the weather outside his Auckland window. “It’s all ...
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The New Zealand government believes its own negotiations with Rio Tinto will be resolved "fairly quickly" now there is certainty about the future of the Tiwai Point smelter. ...
Amanda Thompson and her family are attempting to cut back on the meat, so they gave all the vego sausies the local supermarket had to offer a hoon on the barbie. Here are the results.I was a vegetarian once. Even the best of us take a well-meaning wrong turn on ...
The Taxpayers’ Union welcomes the call by Wellington City Councillor Fleur Fitzsimons for a shift to land value based rates charges. Union spokesman Louis Houlbrooke says, "Local government leaders across the country should join in Fitzsimons’s call ...
It’s been described as ‘pointless revenge’, but impeaching the president has a firm moral purpose, argues Michael Blake – setting a limit to what sorts of action a society will accept.A House majority, including 10 Republicans, voted today to impeach President Trump for “incitement of insurrection”. The vote will initiate ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Bryan Cranston, Lead Academic Teacher – Politics & Social Science (Swinburne Online), Swinburne University of Technology In a historic vote today, Donald Trump became the only US president to be impeached twice. By a margin of 232–197, the Democrat-controlled US House of ...
Hurrah. The PM is back to posting her announcements on the government’s official website, her deputy is back in the business of self-congratulation, Rio Tinto is back in the business of sucking up cheap electricity to produce aluminium at Tiwai Point, near Bluff. And overseas students (some, anyway) can come ...
The electricity sector, Government and people of Southland are rejoicing after Tiwai Point aluminium smelter owner Rio Tinto announced the major industrial would be open until the end of 2024, Marc Daalder reports Stakeholders in the electricity sector and across Southland are celebrating the extension of the Tiwai Point aluminium smelter's ...
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Allowing 1,000 returning international students back to New Zealand is the right move by the Government, and hopefully we will be able to welcome more, says ExportNZ Executive Director Catherine Beard. "International education has contributed ...
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A century of sexual abuse of women in New Zealand is analysed in a University of Auckland study. The newly-published research looks back as far as 1922 by analysing interviews with thousands of women about their lifetime experiences. The study indicates ...
62,686 more native trees will be planted in New Zealand in 2021 thanks to generous Kiwis who chose to go green for Christmas gifting. <img src="https://img.scoop.co.nz/stories/images/2101/cf409712f141732a8543.jpeg" width="720" height="540"> Trees That Count, a programme ...
Source: Council on Hemispheric Affairs – Analysis-Reportage By Arturo López-LevyOakland, CaliforniaUnfortunately, the attack on the Capitol by Trump supporters, encouraged by the Inciter-in-Chief, will not be the last act of mischief. Trump is insisting on causing as much damage as possible to the interests and values ...
Very good points except theres no maybe about it:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/115396620/judith-collins-20-may-be-the-leader-national-need-to-take-on-jacindamania-in-2020
Pucky, did you see this article about your girl from a couple of days ago?
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2019/08/30/781560/judith-collins
I can't see how she could stay post-book, any version must deepen the already deep divisions and past behaviours the National Party are ignoring.
The article's author, Pucky?
* Brooke van Velden is a former Act Party candidate and political advisor in the office of Act Party leader David Seymour.
Oh dear!
*Current* staffer of Seymour, even. pffft
I did make the effort to read the piece and at the end, I noted the author's 'credentials'. The infamous quote from one Mandy Rice-Davies immediately sprung to mind.
Mr Melville's well-housed, well- warmed, and well-fed critic personified.
was there a 'well watered' ?
Since was previously with "Excreltium" was that a given
https://nz.linkedin.com/in/brookevanvelden
So ACT are going to terminally destabilise National to create a "Collins" party in the hope of a right wing nirvana.
This could be entertaining.
BVV has twitter that she is going to be writing for nzstuff and her opinions seen regularly in Sunday Star Times.
https://twitter.com/BrookevanVelden?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
I see really good opinions regularly on TS. What about some of the writers seeking jobs on these news outlets? Or will they only accept RWs or dedicated controversialists? Well we have those too. Go for it I reckon, do what you love doing and get paid for it.
She's speaking the truth, It's almost as if Gods own words are flowing through her
I've seen video of such happenings; filmed in Haiti. Very dramatic.
*sings “Do, do that voodoo, that you do, so well…”
By “She”, you meant Judith, right?
I thought he was talking about Greta.
stop the presses..! – an actite has penned a puff-piece about judith collins…
act supporters – all 0.5% of them – must e feeling very proud..
the rest of us can just shrug – and move on…
Opinion pieces that are penned by Mps staff seems to scraping the bottom of the barrel- wouldnt it normally be ghost written by BVV and appear under Seymours name.
Or is it the other way round and Seymour does some bullet points and his office writes it up, but Seymour is too scared of offending nationals big wigs such as Bridges, Bennett and co so hides behind his employee
Genetic engineering is not required when organic farming has the solutions, writes Philippa Jamieson.
"Former chief science adviser Sir Peter Gluckman has said that New Zealand could become a ''backwater'' if we don't loosen up our laws governing genetic engineering. The ODT editorial (19.8.19) also claimed we are ''in serious danger of becoming uncompetitive''.
On the contrary! We stand to gain by remaining GE-free, and even better, by transitioning towards organics. Demand for clean, green, GE-free, safe, healthy, ethical organic food is increasing year on year – around the world and here in Aotearoa New Zealand."
https://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/no-ge-needed-new-zealand?fbclid=IwAR3agtF9RZbn0H9BAt6J2IW_i3cyfNO94wEVhYHZkoKyPElyIPDzUX2kXxU
You're right there
A small country like ours could be a niche provider of good quality food
We're an island, we don't have the problems of continental borders We are uniquely positioned to take advantage of this preference in the market
And apart from all that economic blather primarily we could do it through our commitment to more natural farming. Genetic selection and breeding , yes, forceful splicing( a kind of rape of a plant's integrity) , no
Industry will use climate change as a lever to dislodge the organic argument around GE.
Good to see a rebuttal of Sir Peter Gluckman the scientist that Gnats love to love. I think John Key made some comment about specialist advisors – that for every gambit that the Left could produce, he could produce a different one from the Right. So it is all a battle for whoever will prevail, and the devil take the hindmost despite real outcomes that need precaution to prevent, or positive input to create and encourage.
John Key on Dr Mike Joy.
Key got away with comparing legal opinions – which are just etheria- and science which is more rigorous and has a defined process to become peer reviewed .
The closest example is a court judgement after the opinions and facts have been presented.
Given that she's an organic food industry lobbyist, "Well she would say that, wouldn't she?" I expect a GE industry lobbyist would take a different view.
She would and they would. It's a nuanced discussion, that of organically-grown food in relation to that which is not grown that way. Some human industries might have been better to have been left as theory, rather than pursued, by humans; "germ warfare" for example, and I wonder if there's a bona fide way of knowing, at the outset, whether any particular path is a wise one to follow, or not. Clearly arguments can be made and won, even though the results might ultimately be catastrophic. Is there a way to judge, in the early stages, the wisdom of such proposals? The GE proposals are some that are met with strong feelings of opposition by people such as Philippa; is she correct in her position? Is it just "reasoned debate" that can determine the suitable path to take? Are the views of indigenous peoples the true measure of such proposals? I think that needs exploring.
The precautionary principle seems a useful frame to judge emerging tech. Do we actually *need GE foods? I can't see any reason why we do. If some consider it a nice to have, let's work with the precautionary principle first. Should have applied that to dairy conversions too.
There are some quite useful possibilities that come with the technology – soybeans modified to synthesize lysine for example, a protein chiefly found in fish, the absence of which slows growth rates in a number of domestic animals.
Unfortunately the technology seems to have been first adopted by the ravening loons at Monsanto, so they went after terminator genes and "roundup readiness". The former is a fairly reasonable use, the latter two not worth taking chances for.
I agree that Monsanto has taken things to whole new heights. However the soybean example would be a decades long experiment until we get large long term studies. If we look at the fat hypothesis, we can see half a century now of bad science and worse public health response and despite the problems with the hypothesis being well known for a decade we're still not moving on changing.
I just don't think we are anywhere near close to being able to responsibly assess and manage GE tech in the food chain. Part of that is capitalism and Monsanto culture, but those dynamics are throughout society including science and medicine.
The lysine soybeans were done long ago – Big Ag twisted Monsanto's arm.
Actually I think it can be assessed responsibly without too much trouble, the difficulty is once you say yes proponents will try to bring in everything, a very undesirable tendency.
There is also the thing that plant geneticists are possible well paid skilled occupations for a sustainable future society. NZ used to be good at that stuff, even without these new technologies.
"Actually I think it can be assessed responsibly without too much trouble"
How?
An assessment of value versus risk, with a field trial imposition or exclusion for not meeting value minimums. So that a crop field tested for twenty years or so might be okayed for general release – if it has no complaints against it in that time.
The difficulty would be to create a system robust enough to remain operative under the reckless stupidity of the current opposition – and that would certainly be an almost insurmountable challenge.
crop tested 20 years for what? I'm not sure what you are assessing there.
@Weka
It's a catchall.
The field test is to reveal problems not anticipated in the design phase. So going back to the lysine soybeans – have they any cultural (ie are they invasive or do they cross fertilize to a problematic degree) or do they develop toxicity or provoke allergic responses. If twenty years say no, they're not so different from comparable non GE soybeans and need not be restricted.
Plants designed for high pesticide resistance or to resist insect pests by accumulating toxins might have to reach a higher standard. But for example the GMO designed to restore the American Chestnut does not seem to be problematic, and subject to a trial, might be released.
“have they any cultural (ie are they invasive or do they cross fertilize to a problematic degree) or do they develop toxicity or provoke allergic responses”
How do you assess provoking allergic responses? Or other health issues? It sounds good in theory, but we know that people already have various reactions to eating soy, and that food intolerances seem to be increasing and we don’t yet know why. Add to that that science isn’t *that good at assessing combined and culmulative effects, nor understanding the synergistic aspect of plants that has come about via natural selection and how that impacts on humans (eg what’s the relationship of lysine to the other amino acids and other components and processes in the plant?), and I’ll invoke the precautionary principle again.
What’s the point of the lysine manipulation?
The point of lysine is that stock that lack it in their diets have their growth constrained – it need only be about 0.5 or 1 %. Traditionally this shortfall was made up with fishmeal, but growing demand versus declining supply has made that very expensive, and it promotes 'kill everything' fishing habits. I'm not sure if it is used for salmon feeds or the cooked legume based fish feeds they've developed in Oz, but in principle it would be sensible.
Allergy testing is usually by scratch tests, there are well standardized protocols.
This from weka is a very well put piece of truth that should be absorbed in every brain cell by those positing that increased technology and experimentation of any sort is what we need to overcome all our present and future problems.
There is an interesting example coming up for consideration that perhaps we could look at and that is a new version of ryegrass that has been trialled for NZ (I understand) in the USA. Has every downside of its use been examined carefully and objectively? If we did decide to use it, would we have complete ownership of it? Or have we foregone that by not doing the trials ourselves. Can we trust the firm to maintain their integrity and commit themselves and their employees to handing back to us all our material and renounce any interest in it?
The main problem is the current separation of responsibility, of the people making the money, shareholders, and the people who end up paying for the fuckups, us!
Simply changing company law, so that those who profit from any technology, or any business activity, are jointly strictly liable personally under criminal law, with penalties commensurate with the costs, for any consequent damage, would stop a lot of enthusiasm for untested technology.
Monsanto would fast lose their enthusiasm for roundup, if they knew there is a certainty of having to prove dead bees wasn't them.
The precautionary principle seems a useful frame to judge emerging tech.
The precautionary principle is a handy tool for opposing the introduction of a new technology, because it demands the inventors prove a negative. It's not very useful outside of that context.
Do we actually *need GE foods?
Nope. But then, given that we made it through half a billion years of evolution without using any technology at all until the last hundred thousand, the same answer applies to all technology – from stone tools through to artificial intelligence.
That's not what I meant though. I mean us, now, in the middle of the post-industrial revolution. Some tech we need eg how to maintain nuclear reactors so they don't cause mass damage. We need cancer treatments. We need ways of growing food. We don't have a lot of alternatives for preventing nuclear fallout or cancer, we do have perfectly adequate alternatives to GE for food growing. If half the effort (science and political) went into that instead of GE, we'd be well on our way to reducing ag GHGs by now.
"The precautionary principle is a handy tool for opposing the introduction of a new technology, because it demands the inventors prove a negative. It's not very useful outside of that context."
You say that like it's a bad thing.
Requiring people to prove a negative is a bad thing, both in this particular instance and as a general principle.
not in this case. Proof of a negative isn't required. Pro-GE people might frame it like that but that misses the point of the precautionary principle. If there's reasonable grounds for caution because of the unknown nature of the proposal, then the inability to prove a negative is useful. It slows us down so we can make better decisions.
Still wondering it it might be easier/better to ask someone wise
who did you have in mind?
Someone uncivilised.
Someone who hasn't suffered a cultural "death-by-a-thousand-cuts".
Someone who knows plants in the way you might know a family-member.
Maybe someone long-passed. Perhaps such a person has left words that we can apply to this situation.
Anyone spring to your mind?
Wrong spot!
Opposition to GE is essentially religious in nature, so no amount of testing will ever be enough to convince opponents that the precautionary principle has been satisfied. I don't see a difference between that and asking people to prove a negative.
Opposition to GE is essentially religious in nature,
Rubbish.
Opposition to rubbish is essentially religious 🙂
"Opposition to GE is essentially religious in nature"
Oh bullshit. Those who opposed to GE actually understand what the process is and how the result is an organism that cannot be proven to be safe, as opposed to organisms that we've been consuming for thousands of years that have only been changed by natural or specific selection. And if you claim GE is the same as selection by trait you don't understand what Genetic Engineering is. Though the name should give you some clue.
Support of GE is likewise, religious.
So, how to make the decisions?
Consult the religious leaders?
Or ask someone not contaminated by any religion?
Support of GE is likewise, religious.
If we define "religious" so broadly as to make it a meaningless term, sure.
So, how to make the decisions?
Evidence and rational argument is always a pretty good start. A demand to prove a negative isn't.
I fully agree. But it can never be complete, conclusive, definitive, and absolute. Nor can it be the be-all-end-all. Nor can it nullify emotions. Nor can it decide moral dilemmas.
"If we define "religious" so broadly as to make it a meaningless term, sure."
Not everyone is religious, nor every world-view religious. We could find someone untainted, I'm sure.
"Evidence and rational argument is always a pretty good start. A demand to prove a negative isn't. "
Lets start with evidence and rational argument then. I don't demand that anyone prove a negative.
Bull. Any science that is carried out by people who want to make a profit from a technology should be treated with suspicion.
And the cost benefit ratio to the community should be assessed. Including the degree of risk if it turns out like the introduction of rabbits, down the track.
After enough testing to ensure that it is safe enough.
Not forgetting what companies did to farmers over patented crops.
There are also commercial reasons to remain GE free for export crops. There is a huge market around the world to people who don't want to be lab rats.
Incognito: I understand that. It's why evidence and rational argument is a good place to start, not the be-all and end-all.
Robert: if we start with evidence and rational argument, it's up to GE opponents to explain what harm they envisage from GE, not to issue an impossible demand for GE researchers to prove that no damage could possibly occur.
"Robert: if we start with evidence and rational argument, it's up to GE opponents to explain what harm they envisage from GE, not to issue an impossible demand for GE researchers to prove that no damage could possibly occur. "
I agree. Will you put forward your evidence and rational argument so we can have a discussion? It would be interesting to start with one simple claim/aspect, rather than a general one; much easier to contain the discussion and hopefully, reach agreement.
Robert: it would be simpler to start with one simple aspect if GE opponents were only opposed to particular individual instances of it and unopposed to it as a general principle, but that isn't the case. Blanket rejection of GE as a technology requires evidence and rational argument for that blanket rejection.
Don't you think that sellers of technology should show that it is safe.
We even have safety requirements for car manufacturers. Crop and pesticide developers, especially in the USA, are largely self regulated, with only the threat of individual law suits. As with tobacco, those take decades to affect profits enough to have any effect.
Don't you think that sellers of technology should show that it is safe.
I certainly do. Technology like this requires thorough testing in a rigorous regulatory environment. Which we have.
The flip side of that question is equally valid: don't you think that once thorough testing in a tightly-regulated environment shows a technology is safe, its use should be permitted?
to Robert at 2: " Demand for…..safe organic food is increasing etc" is why this great gran is (after early swim to keep fit enough to accomplish it) going to spend this gorgeous Dunedin day attending to my vegies and berries as have done for decades. wherever my home. Importantly, the taste of food fresh from the garden is inestimably better than almost anything from supermarket shelves, conveniently at hand and cheaper.
"Are the views of indigenous peoples* the true measure of such proposals? I think that needs exploring."
*Or great grans
to Robert at 2.3.1. : enjoyed the smile…..NB that this great gran has enjoyed home grown food since babyhood and knows her onions regarding development in GE. Had gardens for my classes for decades …..also taught about greenhouse gas threat as soon as was in science journals.
At last, a genuine prospect of undoing the damage Max Bradford did to NZ's electricity system: https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/115323041/loyal-customers-set-to-benefit-from-electricity-review-but-gas-users-may-pay-more
You forgot one part about 'forced separation' of Telecom and Chorus
National government paid around $950 mill to buy 45% of Chorus AND provided 'soft loans' for Chorus to build Fibre street network PLUS tax payer funded installs ( $2000 each ?) from street backbone to ‘ fibre terminating unit’ inside the house.
There is a multi billion dollar public funded utility in controlled by a private business.
I always thought years ago that when Telecom was sold off ( so taxpayers wouldnt have to bail it out or fund its capital for expansion) that one day we would have to 'buy it back' – like we did with Kiwirail and Air NZ.
And by various means , we paid for it but didnt get the ownership !
Steven Joyce, negotiating genius. Even with Cunliffe having done the legwork on separation, his successor still managed to transfer more state money into private pockets to sweeten the deal.
Treasury must have had a seizure when they were asked to evaluate the proposal, dont recall much at the time .
Not only that but the whole fibre broadband tender from Chorus at the time was , as they say, 'non conforming' which it meant they didnt meet the terms and conditions. But they jacked up a backroom deal with Joyce with a few titbits for others to give a semblance of open tender.
Curran has been dragged over the coals for a meeting or two with Carol Hirschfeld and yet Joyce was in deals 'off the calendar' worth 'billions' and nothing in the media ( mostly because the main media journalists were 'his chooks' who were regularly fed inside stories- except the likes of Road Oram who were forced out)
Indeed, Dukeofurl. Nor did we (taxpayers) get the return, which of course were privatised.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/102708888/way-to-be-cleared-for-big-electricity-players-to-prey-on-lowincome-households
Don't hold your breath. It doesn't look like much will change out of all this.
Am I the only one who wishes Martyn Bradbury would shut the f*** up about everything 'woke'. He honestly has some serious obsession issues in that regard.
could someone please tell me what 'woke' is/means..?
and as a leftwing vegan – who doesn't use alcohol – but who does smoke pot..
am i automatically one of these 'woke'-people..?
i fear i might be – so need some clarification here..
(i feel a t-shirt coming on – 'am i woke?'..)
Has anyone made the word play linking "woke" with "Ewok"?
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=woke
One NZ synonym may be 'wanker'.
(from the definition)
'The act of being very pretentious about how much you care about a social issue'
so it can be used as an insult/attack weapon by say – unreconstructed flesh-eaters – against – say – militant-vegans..?
so it's a term used by reactionaries..?
'Reactionaries' is the polite term. The more appropriate expression has just one syllable and rhymes with 'mix'.
has bradbury turned the ideological corner – and met his rightwing self coming the other way..?
he really is putting the 'ok' in 'woke'-bashing..
No, Bradbury's always been like this, or at least in the years I've seen him online. It's just another version of his anti-identity politics views. Work culture in NZ needs critiquing but he's not the person to do it because he's not very good at listening and just ends up polarising the left further.
Woke comes out of Black culture in the US, where it has a different meaning and usage.
“I’m a woke bloke woke”
No you're not and he hangs out with some very funny people too.
Just about everything, really.
And haven't we seen similar lines here recently.
https://www.salon.com/2019/08/30/misogyny-meet-hypocrisy-climate-deniers-go-after-aoc-greta-thunberg-with-sexist-attacks/
To Sacha at 5: that comment about "child abuse" towards Thunberg's parents reminds me of a BBC reporter at the Auckland CHOGM conference who asked me why a woman like me ( not defined) was holding an anti-nuke banner. In discussion I told him of young grandson also very perturbed about nuclear testing at that time, whereupon he replied that children shouldn't know about such things!
I suspect he had no idea that the protest was about Mururoa in particular but British and French interest in nukes as well, and was there to report clamour for arriving dignitaries.
'pimps their kid out'. Vile comment. We have had a few slurs here also. Some brains need to go in the wash and be hung to dry in sunlight. A natural disinfectant for some very degraded, besmirched humans.
Hopefully they'll sue.
With this trial of supplying lunches to some test schools, I ask why lunch, would not breakfast have a greater result? As then the students are in a better place for the entire school day not the last couple of hours.
Good point. I assume the theory is they get breakfast at home but might not be given any lunch or lunch money.
I assume it’s harder to organise in the morning.
i thought breakfast would be easier to make available and would also be able to more easily be adapted to cover most if not all dietary and cultural needs and can be provided on site. Lunch time is more compressed and I would imagine require heating of food with pre prepared being needed off site and food would be more difficult to cover varied needs.
Getting kids to school on time and settling them into a routine is not an easy task. Maybe providing breakfast is a good way of achieving that but it will cut into class time. Indeed, it would be better to provide sustenance at the beginning of the day but I think the practicality of that works against it.
Definitely the Kids are much easier to settle down in class if they have had breakfast. I found running them around the field first thing, especially the Boys also helped.
On Spirit of Adventure the kids started with star jumps and swimming around the ship in the morning, followed by a full cooked breakfast. No trouble getting them to pay attention.
There are already breakfast programmes in many schools.
Yes, and in some pre-schools too. They are mostly cereal and milk and the children can often help themselves. No big fuss is made about them, hence many people might not know. It's been hapening for years – at least 10 I would say
Yes, JanM and Sacha.
But clearly, while feeding kids at school/preschool helps somewhat, it hasn't done enough to stop the growing queues at food banks nor the growing demand for hardship grants.
It is not intended to. That takes other actions.
That, evidently, are lacking.
What’s the hold up? Could it be our politicians are paid too much, thus are out of touch?
It requires actions like, actually paying people enough money to live, instead of tax payers subsidizing underpaying employers. But that option doesn't seem to have arrived on Labours radar, and is anathema to National's "socialism for the rich".
Schools I have been in (Secondary sector) recognised that most kids ate most of their lunch at Morning Interval, so lengthened Morning Interval a bit, shifted Lunch back one hour, and had only one period after lunch instead of the old two periods, when difficult classes could be at their most nightmarish.
Because of this, I would seriously hope that these so-called 'lunches' will be given out at Morning Interval.
Lunch time is too late, and would minimise the benefit.
Perhaps schools could be forced to move lunch back where it sensibly belongs.
Suicide rates are 90 per cent higher in areas of high deprivation
http://features.nzherald.co.nz/teen-suicide-an-untold-story/
Hence, when I called out Cinny & Rosemary on their denial of the impact of poverty on the high number of suicides it wasn't without good reason
http://features.nzherald.co.nz/teen-suicide-an-untold-story/
The Morgan Foundation have been researching what works (see below) to ensure lower income families get the chance to thrive.
https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/09-07-2017/we-already-know-how-to-help-prevent-suicide-when-will-we-start-taking-action/
https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/02-03-2017/pennies-from-heaven-why-we-need-to-give-all-parents-cash/
[It is nice that you feel vindicated.
However, IMO you are misinterpreting if not twisting their words and using this to vindicate yourself and/or your judgemental opinion in some way. Get over it! Sensitive topics such as suicide are not for scoring points of any kind.
You stubbornly refuse to listen and taken on board suggestions and advice. You stubbornly refuse to change your style and MO. You can get quite shitty when challenged. You stubbornly refuse to take responsibility for your role in the frequent pile-ons. Your hypercritical negative comments are nothing but your biased opinion and judgement but you don’t acknowledge or accept that.
I am getting fed up with your judgemental criticisms because they do not make for good robust debate. I’m giving you yet another warning to change your ways, because you can make a (highly) positive contribution here on this site even or particularly if it is criticism of the Government, past or present, instead of diverting attention away to yourself. Please take heed or sooner or later I will take away your privilege of commenting on this site irrespective of you being a leftie, which you most likely are; you are not the first leftie to receive a ban – Incognito]
totally support what you are saying about poverty as a cause of depression/suicide..
it does my head in how journalists don't seem to have the nous to ask emoting politicians that question..
it also does my head in how so many of the unblinking/in-lockstep supporters of this gimmint shift uneasily in their seats at this question – knowing their labour gummint (except for sole-parents) has done s.f.a. to address poverty…
which – can only be done – not by more emoting – but by increasing the incomes – by a substantial amount – of those poorest/most likely to kill themselves…
Indeed, phillip.
While the general point may true , comparing raw numbers with high numbers of teens/younger adults may just produce relatively higher numbers than areas with far less of those groups. Guess what demographics have large families ?
Its the equivalent of saying very busy roads have more crashes because they are 'dangerous', when the clue is they have massively higher numbers of cars.
Clearly, you overlooked this: Suicide rates are 90 per cent higher in areas of high deprivation. Thus, we are not only talking about the number of youth suicides.
What does your headline say?
teen suicide an untold story …hmmm what group could that be about. They even say its so high for that group it causes a noticeable bump in stats
Love to see your reference about ALL age groups that invalidates my claim
Yes, that is one headline of the links provided. And more than one link was provided
But the statement clearly states suicide rates are 90 per cent higher in areas of high deprivation.
This comes down to the associated stress that comes with being poor, thus losing hope. And families are made up of more than just children.
Denial much?
In a search to try and make sense of what is happening we look for common denominators. Poverty check. Brown check. Young check.
But none of this is why we take our own lives. As Mike King says "We harm ourselves when our inner critic gets the upper hand."
In search of finding solutions we seek reasons why the problem is occurring.
And one common denominator in this problem is suicide rates are 90 per cent higher in areas (note, areas, not just the far north) of high deprivation.
While I have respect for Mike and know he speaks from experience in this matter, he doesn't speak for everyone. Moreover, the negative impacts of living in poverty helps form and develop ones inner critic. Putting people in that dark space.
See my Moderation note @ 11:22 AM.
I looked up archives for TS wanting to see ratings for this site which I know we have and couldn't strike the right heading. Could someone give me a steer for where to find them please? ( I was looking at Open Parachute and remembered that lprent mentioned that some other meter was being used.)
On how the rhetoric used by conservative apologists mirrors that used by pre-war supporters of the south.
After the El Paso shooting, Ben Shapiro — a popular conservative podcaster — asked Americans to draw a line between the few conservatives who are white supremacists and those who, like him, aren’t. Almost all Americans are “on the same side,” he said, and “we should be mourning together.” In his telling, we aren’t, for “one simple reason: Too many on the political left [are] castigating the character of those who disagree,” lumping conservatives and political nonconformists together with racists and xenophobes.
I grew up in a conservative family. The people I talk to most frequently, the people I call when I need help, are conservative. I’m not inclined to paint conservatives as thoughtless bigots. But a few years ago, listening to the voices and arguments of commentators like Shapiro, I began to feel a very specific deja vu I couldn’t initially identify. It felt as if the arguments I was reading were eerily familiar. I found myself Googling lines from articles, especially when I read the rhetoric of a group of people we could call the “reasonable right.”
[…]
So it felt frustrating: When I read Weiss, when I listened to Shapiro, when I watched Peterson or read the supposedly heterodox online magazine Quillette, what was I reminded of?
My childhood home is just a half-hour drive from the Manassas battlefield in Virginia, and I grew up intensely fascinated by the Civil War. I loved perusing soldiers’ diaries. During my senior year in college, I studied almost nothing but Abraham Lincoln’s speeches. While I wrote my thesis on a key Lincoln address, Civil War rhetoric was almost all I read: not just that of the 16th president but also that of his adversaries.
Thinking back on those debates, I finally figured it out. The reasonable right’s rhetoric is exactly the same as the antebellum rhetoric I’d read so much of. The same exact words. The same exact arguments. Rhetoric, to be precise, in support of the slave-owning South.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/08/29/conservatives-say-weve-abandoned-reason-civility-old-south-said-that-too/
http://archive.li/HYSqX
That was a very good read.
arthur grimes is 'owned' on national radio…
(in fact – he was monstered – came across as irrational/illogical/gdp-doctrinaire..
the professor has no clothes..)
Brexit – good attempt to summarise the current running by the Guardian's Isabel Hardman.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/31/brexit-weirdest-week-four-scenarios
and Aljazeera –
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/08/brexit-thousands-protest-johnson-move-suspend-parliament-190831132616559.html
A petition calling on the government not to suspend Parliament has gained more than one million signatures, while more than 50 MPs from the main parties have also pledged to set up an alternative House of Commons if the suspension goes forward. …
In London, thousands of angry protesters on Saturday rallied outside Downing Street, the official residence of the prime minister, to oppose the controversial move scheduled for early September….
More than 80 protests across the UK on Saturday were organised by the anti-Brexit campaign group Another Europe is Possible and were led by Momentum – a left-wing caucus within the opposition Labour Party. The organisers named the protests "Stop the Coup" in reference to Johnson's plans.
The gathering in London brought together people from a range of backgrounds.
Paddy Gemmell, 15, a student from London, said the suspension of Parliament is "undemocratic".
"Since people voted for Brexit many have begun to understand what that actually means and have changed their minds – their voices should be heard," he said.
"Voices should be heard" – which is code for doing the EUs bidding when any referendum vote goes against them , invalidate that vote by any means.
Ask Norwegians how their vote against Joining the EU went.
"Paddy Gemmell, 15, a student…" , is that really the voice of the people ?
It was pretty much invalidated by the lies told beforehand dookydooky.
Lies were told before the vote by the Remainers you only read the Guardian who are hyper partisan on remain at all costs so they ignore all the nonsense they told before the referendum vote. It was so bad they even had a code name for it Project Fear
"In May 2016, then-chancellor George Osborne warned leaving the EU could cause a drop in house prices of 18% – it didn’t materialise and 11 months later, Nigel Farage was crowing as prices continued to rise."
George Osborne, the then Chancellor, said in a BBC Radio 4 interview that leaving the European Union would cause "financial instability" and leave "no economic plan," which would need an immediate response from the government. "There would have to be increases in tax and cuts in public spending to fill the black hole," he said.
Good to see the backlash against this odious decision to auction off this significant Māori cloak by the english. This is not the 1840s anymore… This taonga needs to be sent back to the iwi in NZ where it belongs free of charge instead of living in a cupboard.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2019/08/m-ori-cloak-auction-cancelled-after-kiwis-threaten-owners-with-abuse.html
And a hearty well done to the gum-sucking morons who thought vile abuse and threats would somehow see a taonga returned.
FFS.
It did stop the auction. Not a good social dynamic that, but I doubt that the cloak was going to be returned to Iwi.
Indeed vile abuse and threats are not the best way to negotiate but I'd say that since Maori tried negotiating respectfully with English settlers 200 years ago and were treated to vile abuse, their descendants feel no obligation now to conduct themselves with much decorum towards these English.
Hurt people hurt. For generations.
This cloak meant nothing to these people for a hundred years and now that it's been valued in monetary terms they no longer care to return it to Ngāti Maniapoto. It means money to them, nothing else.
Hurt people hurt.
The Cancer Society have won the media furore race.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/397898/government-to-establish-a-cancer-control-agency-and-give-pharmac-an-extra-60m
What about others like those with endemitriosis? – just affects women. Or Chronic Fatigue Syndrome – they're too tired to get up and do something for themselves, No cancer is the in-disease at the present.
It was labour party election policy to establish a new 'agency' Look it up
Maybe cancer is the 'in disease' because it has in some instances high death rates compared to your ridiculous 'chronic fatigue syndrome' ( Is there even a established treatment or new medication that can be funded – didnt think so)
Those of us who have cancers would prefer it not to be the in-disease 🙂
I have a resection due in ten days, so I have a stake in the matter. My fourth diagnosis so far. It does have an emotional component for many people and I can see that others with life threatening and serious diseases would feel the same about their particular affliction.
Money does help. Last night I attended a support group meeting of fellow sufferers and partners. One man has a three monthly drug to take. He saw the price tag once. $1003 for one dose. Effective though. A good man and husband is kept alive and functioning by the state's expenditure.
Is it possible that someone who has had cancer can understand that others are aching for assistance, who are not faced with a terminal disease. Such a lot of cancer sufferers wish to have a longer life without consideration of the cost. They don't want to die, they don't want to pay out their own money to buy the expensive nostrums, and they don't care that the country already is not providing basic services for young needy people.
Perhaps we should have a voucher system, a lifetime allowance with a few allowances for rare cases. And age needs to become of importance. Once you are over 70? If not then, what would be reasonable, 75, 80? And then palliative care only.
Thanks for the response, greywarshark. This is a difficult issue, not because I have again an operable cancer, but because it gets into issues such as you have raised about age, whether we should countenance triage with age as a consideration, use of available resources with a voucher system to restrict overuse of resources, and more assistance to people with non-terminal but needed services.
Firstly, I reject the ageism. I am about to turn 70 but a form of selectivity based on age is a very dangerous notion considering what else may be used as a criterion like mental health, cretinism, genetic disorders, putative contributions to society, membership of social outgroups based on ethnicity, lifestyles, religion, immigration status. You see where this can lead?
I also reject your assertion that older people don't care about provision of services to needy young people. That is also ageist, wrong and unworthy.
I reject your assertion that they don't want to pay out of their own money for what you dismiss as 'nostrums', which is defined as "a medicine prepared by an unqualified person, especially one that is not considered effective."
greywarshark, your style of argument is very difficult to wish to continue with. I thank you for your response but earnestly ask that you full consider how you argue and what you are actually espousing.
I understand that you are arguing for a group either young or missing out in your view on adequate services and treatment. If you have someone in that situation, then I feel for you.
There are other answers than dumping on other groups.
A huge amount of what we argue about concerns allocation of resources.
The resources are there. Do we want to do this or do that? Defence or health? Bailouts for failed businesses or education? Tax breaks or prison reform? Support for films, world rugby and yachting cups or mental health?
Maybe there is still not enough money. And consider that old folk have children and grandchildren that they wish the best for. And vice versa. I am unhappy to see this discussion descend into an "us versus them" scenario.
Better that we promote our causes, acknowledge the shortfalls and discuss how we best justly allocate our resources based on reason, actual need and fairness.
Good luck with everything mac1.
@ g-shark..
'and they don't care that the country already is not providing basic services for young needy people. '
what a vile unfounded accusation/generalisation…
sit down – why don't you..
There'll always be plenty of waddabouts graysie.
Are we getting value for money out of our parliamentarians (from all parties)?
Or do we pay them too much?
The PM currently gets about nine times the average wage. While others receive less, they still receive more than the average worker.
And considering the poor state of the nation (and not just of late) is paying them so much really attracting quality representation?
Moreover, is paying them so much (putting them in the top one per cent of income earners) a problem (as in, with high incomes as such, so many of them are now out of touch with your average voter) thus continually fail to improve life for the majority?
Is it long past time we reset (lower) the incomes of our MPs?
The Chairman, I'll tell you just one story I know to be true. A former MP had two terms in a marginal seat. The night he lost the seat someone burned down the barn on a little farmlet he had. No employer would give this former MP a job. He had to subsist on his farmlet. He was generous with his own money whilst an MP. I know.
There are risks involved in being an MP. It's a hard life. A British MP was murdered, remember.
Tne last point I make is one I made to Geoffrey Palmer many years ago. We pay our MPs, judges etc well to lessen the threat of corruption and bribery. It is one of the fair prices of democracy.
So we are paying them exorbitant amounts of danger money? When others (such as police officers) in dangerous jobs aren't paid nowhere near as much.
As for averting the potential for corruption, some would argue that's largely a fail. Moreover, we can and should better police that.
[Attributing words, feelings, emotions, beliefs, or motives to other commenters does not make for a constructive debate. If you feel the need to make assumptions, you must check these before you take them as a given. Please pay close attention to mac1’s first sentence in his response @ 14.1.1.1 to you – Incognito]
I think you have taken one part of what I said, exaggerated it hugely, and attributed to me beliefs that I do not have.
To respond to your point re corruption, yes we need to have and I believe do have sufficient safeguards regarding police and the judiciary.
But, paying well enough that there is no temptation to augment the income with a little under-counter extra is a good strategy. Better than paying very good salaries to incorrupt guardians to oversee our guardian police, judiciary and MPs because if the guardians of the guardians are corruptible through insufficient financial independence, then we're back worse than when we started. Whew!
"Quis custodiet custodes ipsos?"
The above quote were your words.
Therefore, I asked (not exaggerated it hugely and attributed to your beliefs) if we are paying them exorbitant amounts of danger money?
Which you have yet to clarify.
If our policing of this was/is fully robust we wouldn't require this strategy.
Moreover, regardless how much we pay our MP's they could still be open to corruption as those (affluent multinational corporations for argument sake) that wanted to bribe them would merely offer them more to sway them.
Therefore, it really falls down to how well this type of corruption is policed.
I don't think the salaries are particularly exhorbitant. It's an important job with significant responsibilities, and for every one who walks into a highly paid lobbying or directorship job related to their political life, there are several who simply go back to their homes and former careers.
And yes, there is a reputational (and sometimes physical) risk associated with the job.
Should they be paid more than cops or whatever? I think a better equivalence would be between politicians and upper management. 120 people in charge of a $300 billion, 4.7million person organisation? From that perspective, they're cheap.
In comparison to the average worker, it's exorbitant.
In comparison to a CEO, not so much.
I'm not denying there is a risk to the job. But there are risks with many jobs that don't reward nowhere as much.
And just because they oversee a lot (money/population) doesn't mean they are doing a good job of it, thus they should be rewarded on performance on top of a far lower base salary, which takes into account how well those on the bottom are impacted from their decisions/oversight.
I prefer pay-based performance; employer unions generally aren't too keen on performance-based pay.
Re-election is their reward.
Let me put it another way: someone works 40hr/wk for $50k. Would you expect them to throw their hat in the ring, quit that permanent job for maybe three years on the same rate, mostly working longer hours based in another town, and bunging you in the public eye?
They are still paid rather well (albeit less) if they aren't re-elected.
On performance based pay they still have the opportunity to do a good job and be better compensated. Giving them the incentive to do better.
It's performance-based job retention. Judged by their employers, the electorate.
"Performance-based pay" is a stupid idea for anything that doesn't have clearly quantifiable benchmarks with simple inputs that are largely in the control of the worker. But it sounds good when applied to teachers and politicians, even if the people calling for it have no idea about how to implement it fairly both for the employee and the people the employee is supposed to serve.
Reading and thinking over the thread, I'm just getting fucked off. If we pay MPs fuckall, then only the rich can afford to be MPs. If we pay them an average wage, then no average worker would risk their livelihood or the family's income for precarious employment that has no financial advantage.
Not that you've stated how performance would be judged (or by whom), or the vague ballpark of payscales you'd like to see for politicians.
You're just, yet again, spouting right wing platitudes that serve only to make the rich more powerful and the poor more easy to get removed from the political system.
I’m off to bed.
Unfortunately, the electorate (their employers) don't currently set or have any input on their salaries. Nor can the public fully dismiss them. Whether or not they are re-elected they are still employed in opposition. Unless of course they don't make that 5% threshold. Therefore, it's not really (albeit to a very limited extent) performance-based job retention.
I agree, clearly quantifiable benchmarks are vital in performance base pay. Hence, it's not suited to all work places/professions. However, I think we could make it work for politicians.
I disagree that only the rich would be able to afford to be an MP. As the base rate would be reasonable.
Moreover, it’s a privilege to serve the people. We should be seeking those that are not only capable but have a genuine passion and desire for it. Not those only seeking a huge salary. Additionally, there is little risk. The average wage is alright (albeit they would be getting above that) and the job is fairly secure. Even in opposition, one would be paid. On top of that, some like to travel and the down times (holidays/breaks) are rather generous. Making up for time away from home. And their pension scheme is good. It may not suit all, but not all are suited to every job. So I don't see any justification for your anger.
That would be up for public debate, after all, we are their employers.
How? Why do you think that? Every quanta for a politician I can think of is either easily rortable or doesn't reflect quality of performance.
And the public does get to dismiss them every three years.
Reasonable for a permanent average job. Not for someone to risk their family's livelihood on by quitting steady, permanent employment. That's why it would be a folly for the rich, not a realistic proposition for the average person.
I’m angry because I think you should know this, whether you are genuinely left wing or a tory in disguise.
Currently, once one becomes an MP they become one of the elite (the rich) hence part of the problem we need to solve.
Not if they merely end up in opposition, thus still on the payroll.
Glad you asked. By further empowering voters.
Being an MP is a extremely unique occupation. As in, your employer is all of us.
Therefore, I suggest along with the public having input on their base rate, we should also be given the opportunity to determine their performance rate. This could be done every three years at election.
The public could/should be allowed to have input in setting a performance scale range and decide on how they individually feel the Government/MP's have performed. Giving the Government/MP's a further incentive to better work for the majority.
That doesn't address the point I raised.
Which they can only do if they maintain the support of their electorate or their party. Otherwise, they're out.
🙄
How? You're not actually stating a position.
That doesn't address my point.
In today's gig economy, not many are lucky enough to have a permanent secure job. Moreover, if one enters parliament via Labour or National their employment is largely secure by either being in Government or in opposition, thus on the public payroll.
If MP's need lots of money to refrain from unethical or corrupt behavior, then I think they are not the sort of people we need in Parliament.
Obviously, having some of the highest MP salaries in the Western world, has failed in this regard. With many instances of unethical and dis honest behavior.
Salaries do make it affordable for normal people to be in Parliament. Before MP 's were paid, Parliament was almost exclusively idle absentee landowners.
I don't see why they should be paid more than a school senior teacher, however.
Pensions commensurate with those paid to military personnel would be more appropriate than the current fortune.
The other problem is the make up of Parliament. A distinct lack of tradespeople for one. And way to many lawyers and failed businessmen.
Indeed, KJT.
Yes, we do lack diversity in the make up of our parliament in that regard.
See my Moderation note @ 4:16 PM.
In the grand scheme of things, the money is a drop in the ocean. Many public servants are paid more.
The role needs to be something capable people aspire to. Spending weeks away from home and pulling a living wage would result in representation that would have you posting non-stop.
Yet, considering the poor state of the nation (and not just of late) are we really attracting capable people? I think not.
I’m not suggesting we lower their wage to a mere living wage, but to a more reasonable amount.
As for many public servants being paid more, it's long past time we reset (lowered) their income too.
"Poor state of the nation."
Chairman, I think if you lived in The Garden of Eden you'd spend your time lodging complaints. "Dear God, I saw a weed amongst the Lavender yesterday."
I'm sorry you find living in New Zealand such a grind. I don't suppose it's going to make you feel much better but I love it.
Satisfaction, can't get no.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jLIRJwfZhg
Marvin the robot is my favourite character in Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide. He has a delightful Eeyore persona. "Life, don't talk to me about life."
Yeah, there's a bit of Chairman in Marvin.
Surely you don't want to be perceived as a doomster Chairman? Optimism is sexy.
Reality is priceless
Your reality is a steaming pile of poo.
I'll run with my reality thanks.
You are free to run with whatever you like.
However, it's doesn't change the reality of the stats – i.e. the rich are getting richer as more people are queuing for food and hardship grants, while a growing number are sleeping rough.
Ask them if they think politicians are value for money and working hard for them.
The mildly rich are 1% of us Chairman. 99 in every 100 people are you and me.
A rich person trading their Ferrari in on a Corolla and building a state house with the change will not shorten the list for emergency housing.
How soon do you think we would see a marked improvement in our governance after we put MPs on $65k pa?
If I started sending you $300 a week would you stop moaning?
If they all had to live on the same incomes of the majority, I suspect policy improvements would come about rather quickly.
@ d mac…
are you dismissing the link between poverty/suicide..?
and that this govt has not done very much about – poverty..?
Yes. I'm dismissing the suicide/poverty line.
It's underwritten by "If you don't want me to top myself, give me money."
I think a better approach is…"Of course you have value and can make as much money as your imagination will allow you to. Come with me and I'll show you how."
As Mike King says, it's about our inner critics. We all have them, it's about where we're at with our inner critics. We need to learn to be there for those that are carrying obese inner critics. Poor, rich, brown, white, whatever.
'Yes. I'm dismissing the suicide/poverty line'
wow..!
you are able to stare down the stats showing the much much higher rates of suicide amongst the poor..?
of not for that reason..why..?
and..have you ever been poor/struggled..?
and given your age/generation/attitude..i doubt it…
'cos if you had you would know what that stain is like…
and the miseries/despair it brings..
and would not be so callous – to boot..
Well spotted, David Mac. I suspect that for many years The Chairman's diodes have been aching all down his Left side.
Pile on in, In Vino.
Bet you can’t wait for my next post (political donations) and my solution. Keep tuned in for that one. Or as they say, keep it locked
I expect you will be piling on in on that one too. As the mob runs wild.
Money For Nothing
The discussion isn't about me. Try addressing the points I made.
Not all are doing badly, The rich are getting richer.
And some may argue (which I am) that this comes down to (in part) because of policy made by politicians that are out of touch with the needs of the majority.
Additionally, re mac1's claim re threats being made on politicians, perhaps they wouldn't be threaten as much if they better represented the majority and not the elite (like them) getting richer .
I think The Chairman's problems with NZ would be all fixed if the government gave him an extra $1000 a week. I think it's more about you than you acknowledge.
The government is never going to make anyone well off Chairman. Those that want to be comfortable will need to make their own arrangements.
Again, it's not about me. Try again.
Well, no CGT sure helps property flippers build their wealth. And don't they (a number of politicians) along with their high incomes have property investment?
Self serving much?
Geez, you seem very concerned about other peoples' money. How much have you got?
It sort of is about you. It's you that is perpetually disgruntled. I'm cranking snapper and singing 3 chord anthems at the pub.
I'm quick to poke finger at a politician in here, but life in NZ? I don't slag NZ, I love living in New Zealand.
You seem to be having a crappy time of it Chair. You care too much to be a mere observer. I fear the shortcomings you highlight are more to do with your poison ivy coloured glasses than the targets you're quick to zero in on.
But hey, this is the sort of conversation we should have mano on mano. You need a reboot from someone you love….Unless you aspire to be known as the perpetually negative person that is an expert at finding fault and useless at identifying solutions….nobody wants to be that guy.
Life in NZ doesn't suck any where near as much as you would have us believe.
"..Life in NZ doesn't suck any where near as much as you would have us believe.'..
maybe not for you..
but for many it is..
It's less than some of the useless pricks they appoint cherry.
That needs addressing to, Gabby.
🙄
https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/museums/what-happened-when-trump-visited-the-african-american-history-museum-according-to-its-former-director/2019/08/30/5471494e-cb5a-11e9-a1fe-ca46e8d573c0_story.html?noredirect=on
Donald has come so far, a few years ago he would of said "They love me in Dutchland."
He probably did say that …these sorts of things are 'often tidied' up in print.
If it weren't so serious, it would be a riot having a cartoon character in the big chair at the White House….Foghorn Leghorn?
Sure, how many times has Trump visited the Netherlands?
"A plant-based diet with less meat and dairy could transform the country's health while also slashing emissions, MPs have been told.
OraTaio: NZ Climate and Health Council co-convenor Dr Alexandra Macmillan said if New Zealand reduced emissions from farming and dairy it would also boost the health of the population.
"New Zealand's diet at the moment is really unhealthy, it's causing a huge amount of disease," she said. "
https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/115370156/plant-based-diet-could-cut-disease-hospital-costs-and-emissions-nz-health-sector-says
(ahem..!..)
Indeed!
i thought shorthand would suffice..
This one (track below) goes out to all those that want to rain down on me. I've got my waterproof coat
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Plush-Eeyore-Coat-Yellow-Backpack-Disneyland-Horse-Donkey-Zebra-Cla/362730368862?hash=item54746a2f5e:g:PbEAAOSwP5JdEIfr
It must smell of piss on the inside.
Latest on Brexit. EU sets a line in rock.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49540681
Brexit: Michel Barnier [EU lead negotiator] rejects demands for backstop to be axed
and
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-war-erupts-tory-mps-19118531
Brexit war erupts as Tory MPs face down Boris Johnson's threat to cast them out.
Boris Johnson could withdraw the whip from Tory MPs who vote to block no-deal Brexit. But today the rebels faced him down – in a move that risks a historic split in the Conservative Party and the country…
MPs will table a law on Tuesday to stop Boris Johnson crashing the UK out of the EU on October 31 without a deal.
The Prime Minister, who has a majority of one, faces defeat if the MPs can pass the law in the tiny period of time before he suspends Parliament for five weeks, from around September 12….
A Government spokesperson said: “All options for party management are under consideration.”
The warning is an echo of David Cameron’s tweet four years ago that the country faced “a simple and inescapable choice – stability and strong Government with me, or chaos with Ed Miliband.”
A Sky News correspondent believes if the British opposition Labour Party doesn't appoint a new leader, a no deal brexit is on the cards
© 2019 Newstalk ZB, NZCity
Who the f**k is Enda Brady anyway.
"Appoint" a new leader- which planet is she on..Corbyn was elected by the membership.
I believe she is a he 😉
A big endian ,not a little endian.?
What do I know?
bastards
Voice from shadowy figure in the distance – 'Take care. You are making me angry. We have ways of dealing with outrageous dissent.'