I did make the effort to read the piece and at the end, I noted the author's 'credentials'. The infamous quote from one Mandy Rice-Davies immediately sprung to mind.
I see really good opinions regularly on TS. What about some of the writers seeking jobs on these news outlets? Or will they only accept RWs or dedicated controversialists? Well we have those too. Go for it I reckon, do what you love doing and get paid for it.
I've seen video of such happenings; filmed in Haiti. Very dramatic.
*sings “Do, do that voodoo, that you do, so well…”
By “She”, you meant Judith, right?
Opinion pieces that are penned by Mps staff seems to scraping the bottom of the barrel- wouldnt it normally be ghost written by BVV and appear under Seymours name.
Or is it the other way round and Seymour does some bullet points and his office writes it up, but Seymour is too scared of offending nationals big wigs such as Bridges, Bennett and co so hides behind his employee
Genetic engineering is not required when organic farming has the solutions, writes Philippa Jamieson.
"Former chief science adviser Sir Peter Gluckman has said that New Zealand could become a ''backwater'' if we don't loosen up our laws governing genetic engineering. The ODT editorial (19.8.19) also claimed we are ''in serious danger of becoming uncompetitive''.
On the contrary! We stand to gain by remaining GE-free, and even better, by transitioning towards organics. Demand for clean, green, GE-free, safe, healthy, ethical organic food is increasing year on year – around the world and here in Aotearoa New Zealand."
A small country like ours could be a niche provider of good quality food
We're an island, we don't have the problems of continental borders We are uniquely positioned to take advantage of this preference in the market
And apart from all that economic blather primarily we could do it through our commitment to more natural farming. Genetic selection and breeding , yes, forceful splicing( a kind of rape of a plant's integrity) , no
Good to see a rebuttal of Sir Peter Gluckman the scientist that Gnats love to love. I think John Key made some comment about specialist advisors – that for every gambit that the Left could produce, he could produce a different one from the Right. So it is all a battle for whoever will prevail, and the devil take the hindmost despite real outcomes that need precaution to prevent, or positive input to create and encourage.
Key got away with comparing legal opinions – which are just etheria- and science which is more rigorous and has a defined process to become peer reviewed .
The closest example is a court judgement after the opinions and facts have been presented.
Given that she's an organic food industry lobbyist, "Well she would say that, wouldn't she?" I expect a GE industry lobbyist would take a different view.
She would and they would. It's a nuanced discussion, that of organically-grown food in relation to that which is not grown that way. Some human industries might have been better to have been left as theory, rather than pursued, by humans; "germ warfare" for example, and I wonder if there's a bona fide way of knowing, at the outset, whether any particular path is a wise one to follow, or not. Clearly arguments can be made and won, even though the results might ultimately be catastrophic. Is there a way to judge, in the early stages, the wisdom of such proposals? The GE proposals are some that are met with strong feelings of opposition by people such as Philippa; is she correct in her position? Is it just "reasoned debate" that can determine the suitable path to take? Are the views of indigenous peoples the true measure of such proposals? I think that needs exploring.
The precautionary principle seems a useful frame to judge emerging tech. Do we actually *need GE foods? I can't see any reason why we do. If some consider it a nice to have, let's work with the precautionary principle first. Should have applied that to dairy conversions too.
There are some quite useful possibilities that come with the technology – soybeans modified to synthesize lysine for example, a protein chiefly found in fish, the absence of which slows growth rates in a number of domestic animals.
Unfortunately the technology seems to have been first adopted by the ravening loons at Monsanto, so they went after terminator genes and "roundup readiness". The former is a fairly reasonable use, the latter two not worth taking chances for.
I agree that Monsanto has taken things to whole new heights. However the soybean example would be a decades long experiment until we get large long term studies. If we look at the fat hypothesis, we can see half a century now of bad science and worse public health response and despite the problems with the hypothesis being well known for a decade we're still not moving on changing.
I just don't think we are anywhere near close to being able to responsibly assess and manage GE tech in the food chain. Part of that is capitalism and Monsanto culture, but those dynamics are throughout society including science and medicine.
The lysine soybeans were done long ago – Big Ag twisted Monsanto's arm.
Actually I think it can be assessed responsibly without too much trouble, the difficulty is once you say yes proponents will try to bring in everything, a very undesirable tendency.
There is also the thing that plant geneticists are possible well paid skilled occupations for a sustainable future society. NZ used to be good at that stuff, even without these new technologies.
An assessment of value versus risk, with a field trial imposition or exclusion for not meeting value minimums. So that a crop field tested for twenty years or so might be okayed for general release – if it has no complaints against it in that time.
The difficulty would be to create a system robust enough to remain operative under the reckless stupidity of the current opposition – and that would certainly be an almost insurmountable challenge.
The field test is to reveal problems not anticipated in the design phase. So going back to the lysine soybeans – have they any cultural (ie are they invasive or do they cross fertilize to a problematic degree) or do they develop toxicity or provoke allergic responses. If twenty years say no, they're not so different from comparable non GE soybeans and need not be restricted.
Plants designed for high pesticide resistance or to resist insect pests by accumulating toxins might have to reach a higher standard. But for example the GMO designed to restore the American Chestnut does not seem to be problematic, and subject to a trial, might be released.
“have they any cultural (ie are they invasive or do they cross fertilize to a problematic degree) or do they develop toxicity or provoke allergic responses”
How do you assess provoking allergic responses? Or other health issues? It sounds good in theory, but we know that people already have various reactions to eating soy, and that food intolerances seem to be increasing and we don’t yet know why. Add to that that science isn’t *that good at assessing combined and culmulative effects, nor understanding the synergistic aspect of plants that has come about via natural selection and how that impacts on humans (eg what’s the relationship of lysine to the other amino acids and other components and processes in the plant?), and I’ll invoke the precautionary principle again.
The point of lysine is that stock that lack it in their diets have their growth constrained – it need only be about 0.5 or 1 %. Traditionally this shortfall was made up with fishmeal, but growing demand versus declining supply has made that very expensive, and it promotes 'kill everything' fishing habits. I'm not sure if it is used for salmon feeds or the cooked legume based fish feeds they've developed in Oz, but in principle it would be sensible.
Allergy testing is usually by scratch tests, there are well standardized protocols.
This from weka is a very well put piece of truth that should be absorbed in every brain cell by those positing that increased technology and experimentation of any sort is what we need to overcome all our present and future problems.
I just don't think we are anywhere near close to being able to responsibly assess and manage GE tech in the food chain. Part of that is capitalism and Monsanto culture, but those dynamics are throughout society including science and medicine.
There is an interesting example coming up for consideration that perhaps we could look at and that is a new version of ryegrass that has been trialled for NZ (I understand) in the USA. Has every downside of its use been examined carefully and objectively? If we did decide to use it, would we have complete ownership of it? Or have we foregone that by not doing the trials ourselves. Can we trust the firm to maintain their integrity and commit themselves and their employees to handing back to us all our material and renounce any interest in it?
The main problem is the current separation of responsibility, of the people making the money, shareholders, and the people who end up paying for the fuckups, us!
Simply changing company law, so that those who profit from any technology, or any business activity, are jointly strictly liable personally under criminal law, with penalties commensurate with the costs, for any consequent damage, would stop a lot of enthusiasm for untested technology.
Monsanto would fast lose their enthusiasm for roundup, if they knew there is a certainty of having to prove dead bees wasn't them.
The precautionary principle seems a useful frame to judge emerging tech.
The precautionary principle is a handy tool for opposing the introduction of a new technology, because it demands the inventors prove a negative. It's not very useful outside of that context.
Do we actually *need GE foods?
Nope. But then, given that we made it through half a billion years of evolution without using any technology at all until the last hundred thousand, the same answer applies to all technology – from stone tools through to artificial intelligence.
That's not what I meant though. I mean us, now, in the middle of the post-industrial revolution. Some tech we need eg how to maintain nuclear reactors so they don't cause mass damage. We need cancer treatments. We need ways of growing food. We don't have a lot of alternatives for preventing nuclear fallout or cancer, we do have perfectly adequate alternatives to GE for food growing. If half the effort (science and political) went into that instead of GE, we'd be well on our way to reducing ag GHGs by now.
"The precautionary principle is a handy tool for opposing the introduction of a new technology, because it demands the inventors prove a negative. It's not very useful outside of that context."
not in this case. Proof of a negative isn't required. Pro-GE people might frame it like that but that misses the point of the precautionary principle. If there's reasonable grounds for caution because of the unknown nature of the proposal, then the inability to prove a negative is useful. It slows us down so we can make better decisions.
Opposition to GE is essentially religious in nature, so no amount of testing will ever be enough to convince opponents that the precautionary principle has been satisfied. I don't see a difference between that and asking people to prove a negative.
"Opposition to GE is essentially religious in nature"
Oh bullshit. Those who opposed to GE actually understand what the process is and how the result is an organism that cannot be proven to be safe, as opposed to organisms that we've been consuming for thousands of years that have only been changed by natural or specific selection. And if you claim GE is the same as selection by trait you don't understand what Genetic Engineering is. Though the name should give you some clue.
Evidence and rational argument is always a pretty good start.
I fully agree. But it can never be complete, conclusive, definitive, and absolute. Nor can it be the be-all-end-all. Nor can it nullify emotions. Nor can it decide moral dilemmas.
Bull. Any science that is carried out by people who want to make a profit from a technology should be treated with suspicion.
And the cost benefit ratio to the community should be assessed. Including the degree of risk if it turns out like the introduction of rabbits, down the track.
After enough testing to ensure that it is safe enough.
Not forgetting what companies did to farmers over patented crops.
There are also commercial reasons to remain GE free for export crops. There is a huge market around the world to people who don't want to be lab rats.
Incognito: I understand that. It's why evidence and rational argument is a good place to start, not the be-all and end-all.
Robert: if we start with evidence and rational argument, it's up to GE opponents to explain what harm they envisage from GE, not to issue an impossible demand for GE researchers to prove that no damage could possibly occur.
"Robert: if we start with evidence and rational argument, it's up to GE opponents to explain what harm they envisage from GE, not to issue an impossible demand for GE researchers to prove that no damage could possibly occur. "
I agree. Will you put forward your evidence and rational argument so we can have a discussion? It would be interesting to start with one simple claim/aspect, rather than a general one; much easier to contain the discussion and hopefully, reach agreement.
Robert: it would be simpler to start with one simple aspect if GE opponents were only opposed to particular individual instances of it and unopposed to it as a general principle, but that isn't the case. Blanket rejection of GE as a technology requires evidence and rational argument for that blanket rejection.
Don't you think that sellers of technology should show that it is safe.
We even have safety requirements for car manufacturers. Crop and pesticide developers, especially in the USA, are largely self regulated, with only the threat of individual law suits. As with tobacco, those take decades to affect profits enough to have any effect.
Don't you think that sellers of technology should show that it is safe.
I certainly do. Technology like this requires thorough testing in a rigorous regulatory environment. Which we have.
The flip side of that question is equally valid: don't you think that once thorough testing in a tightly-regulated environment shows a technology is safe, its use should be permitted?
to Robert at 2: " Demand for…..safe organic food is increasing etc" is why this great gran is (after early swim to keep fit enough to accomplish it) going to spend this gorgeous Dunedin day attending to my vegies and berries as have done for decades. wherever my home. Importantly, the taste of food fresh from the garden is inestimably better than almost anything from supermarket shelves, conveniently at hand and cheaper.
to Robert at 2.3.1. : enjoyed the smile…..NB that this great gran has enjoyed home grown food since babyhood and knows her onions regarding development in GE. Had gardens for my classes for decades …..also taught about greenhouse gas threat as soon as was in science journals.
Structural separation and a re-merger would mean the electricity industry would have approximately the same market structure that the National government imposed on the telecommunications industry when it forced Telecom to split into Spark and Chorus and decided that retailers of ultrafast broadband (UFB) should compete on an even footing.
…
Reintegrating the 51-per cent stated-owned generators and spinning off their retail arms into fully privatised businesses may ultimately prove necessary. That is if the industry is to meet the challenge of increasing electricity supply by 43 per cent to generate the 57 terawatt-hours (TWh) that Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment officials believe will be required by 2050, and the Government's goal of 100 per cent renewable generation by 2035.
You forgot one part about 'forced separation' of Telecom and Chorus
National government paid around $950 mill to buy 45% of Chorus AND provided 'soft loans' for Chorus to build Fibre street network PLUS tax payer funded installs ( $2000 each ?) from street backbone to ‘ fibre terminating unit’ inside the house.
There is a multi billion dollar public funded utility in controlled by a private business.
I always thought years ago that when Telecom was sold off ( so taxpayers wouldnt have to bail it out or fund its capital for expansion) that one day we would have to 'buy it back' – like we did with Kiwirail and Air NZ.
And by various means , we paid for it but didnt get the ownership !
Steven Joyce, negotiating genius. Even with Cunliffe having done the legwork on separation, his successor still managed to transfer more state money into private pockets to sweeten the deal.
Treasury must have had a seizure when they were asked to evaluate the proposal, dont recall much at the time .
Not only that but the whole fibre broadband tender from Chorus at the time was , as they say, 'non conforming' which it meant they didnt meet the terms and conditions. But they jacked up a backroom deal with Joyce with a few titbits for others to give a semblance of open tender.
Curran has been dragged over the coals for a meeting or two with Carol Hirschfeld and yet Joyce was in deals 'off the calendar' worth 'billions' and nothing in the media ( mostly because the main media journalists were 'his chooks' who were regularly fed inside stories- except the likes of Road Oram who were forced out)
Am I the only one who wishes Martyn Bradbury would shut the f*** up about everything 'woke'. He honestly has some serious obsession issues in that regard.
No, Bradbury's always been like this, or at least in the years I've seen him online. It's just another version of his anti-identity politics views. Work culture in NZ needs critiquing but he's not the person to do it because he's not very good at listening and just ends up polarising the left further.
Woke comes out of Black culture in the US, where it has a different meaning and usage.
Unfortunately, Thunberg was also greeted by a wave of misogynist nastiness, largely coming from allegedly grown men in both Europe and the United States. The attacks on Thunberg were in the same vein as those on Ocasio-Cortez, accusing her of being too stupid to know what she's talking about and denying that her voice is one worth honoring. A writer for the conservative Washington Examiner claimed that Thunberg is a victim of "child abuse" and that her mother "pimps their kid out," explicitly drawing a line between forced sex work and climate activism.
To Sacha at 5: that comment about "child abuse" towards Thunberg's parents reminds me of a BBC reporter at the Auckland CHOGM conference who asked me why a woman like me ( not defined) was holding an anti-nuke banner. In discussion I told him of young grandson also very perturbed about nuclear testing at that time, whereupon he replied that children shouldn't know about such things!
I suspect he had no idea that the protest was about Mururoa in particular but British and French interest in nukes as well, and was there to report clamour for arriving dignitaries.
'pimps their kid out'. Vile comment. We have had a few slurs here also. Some brains need to go in the wash and be hung to dry in sunlight. A natural disinfectant for some very degraded, besmirched humans.
With this trial of supplying lunches to some test schools, I ask why lunch, would not breakfast have a greater result? As then the students are in a better place for the entire school day not the last couple of hours.
i thought breakfast would be easier to make available and would also be able to more easily be adapted to cover most if not all dietary and cultural needs and can be provided on site. Lunch time is more compressed and I would imagine require heating of food with pre prepared being needed off site and food would be more difficult to cover varied needs.
Getting kids to school on time and settling them into a routine is not an easy task. Maybe providing breakfast is a good way of achieving that but it will cut into class time. Indeed, it would be better to provide sustenance at the beginning of the day but I think the practicality of that works against it.
Definitely the Kids are much easier to settle down in class if they have had breakfast. I found running them around the field first thing, especially the Boys also helped.
On Spirit of Adventure the kids started with star jumps and swimming around the ship in the morning, followed by a full cooked breakfast. No trouble getting them to pay attention.
Yes, and in some pre-schools too. They are mostly cereal and milk and the children can often help themselves. No big fuss is made about them, hence many people might not know. It's been hapening for years – at least 10 I would say
But clearly, while feeding kids at school/preschool helps somewhat, it hasn't done enough to stop the growing queues at food banks nor the growing demand for hardship grants.
It requires actions like, actually paying people enough money to live, instead of tax payers subsidizing underpaying employers. But that option doesn't seem to have arrived on Labours radar, and is anathema to National's "socialism for the rich".
Schools I have been in (Secondary sector) recognised that most kids ate most of their lunch at Morning Interval, so lengthened Morning Interval a bit, shifted Lunch back one hour, and had only one period after lunch instead of the old two periods, when difficult classes could be at their most nightmarish.
Because of this, I would seriously hope that these so-called 'lunches' will be given out at Morning Interval.
Lunch time is too late, and would minimise the benefit.
Hence, when I called out Cinny & Rosemary on their denial of the impact of poverty on the high number of suicides it wasn't without good reason
We have families where people are living with no hope and no opportunities. When someone feels like they have nowhere to go, one of the consequences is suicide.” – Far North Mayor John Carter.
The Morgan Foundation have been researching what works (see below) to ensure lower income families get the chance to thrive.
The evidence shows it is poverty itself that is at the heart of why lower income children and parents experience greater levels of mental distress.
In the book Pennies From Heaven, I describe research showing that being poor affects parents and their children’s wellbeing through increased stress.
Stress affects the way parents interact with children, it affects their family relationships, and the brain development of children themselves – all of which impacts on parents’ and children’s mental wellbeing.
Cash with no strings attached is a very powerful tool.
We researched the effectiveness of intensive in-home pre-schooling, parental training, housing interventions, food in schools and nurses in schools, additional cash for families with children, compulsory employment programmes for parents and more.
Nothing was as powerful in improving lives and preventing negative outcomes as unconditional cash.
Unconditional cash lifts the stress – other interventions may not
Cash without strings allows parents to alleviate their family’s particular source of stress – no family has exactly the same sources of stress or the same set of support needs. Cash does not proscribe or prescribe solutions.
Conditional or in-kind assistance (e.g. food in schools, welfare to work programmes) assume to know the source of all struggling families’ needs, or else place conditions on parents in return for that support (like low-paid casual work attendance). These assumptions and conditions can simply increase stress.
Hence, when I called out Cinny & Rosemary on their denial of the impact of poverty on the high number of suicides it wasn’t without good reason
However, IMO you are misinterpreting if not twisting their words and using this to vindicate yourself and/or your judgemental opinion in some way. Get over it! Sensitive topics such as suicide are not for scoring points of any kind.
You stubbornly refuse to listen and taken on board suggestions and advice. You stubbornly refuse to change your style and MO. You can get quite shitty when challenged. You stubbornly refuse to take responsibility for your role in the frequent pile-ons. Your hypercritical negative comments are nothing but your biased opinion and judgement but you don’t acknowledge or accept that.
I am getting fed up with your judgemental criticisms because they do not make for good robust debate. I’m giving you yet another warning to change your ways, because you can make a (highly) positive contribution here on this site even or particularly if it is criticism of the Government, past or present, instead of diverting attention away to yourself. Please take heed or sooner or later I will take away your privilege of commenting on this site irrespective of you being a leftie, which you most likely are; you are not the first leftie to receive a ban – Incognito]
totally support what you are saying about poverty as a cause of depression/suicide..
it does my head in how journalists don't seem to have the nous to ask emoting politicians that question..
it also does my head in how so many of the unblinking/in-lockstep supporters of this gimmint shift uneasily in their seats at this question – knowing their labour gummint (except for sole-parents) has done s.f.a. to address poverty…
which – can only be done – not by more emoting – but by increasing the incomes – by a substantial amount – of those poorest/most likely to kill themselves…
While the general point may true , comparing raw numbers with high numbers of teens/younger adults may just produce relatively higher numbers than areas with far less of those groups. Guess what demographics have large families ?
Its the equivalent of saying very busy roads have more crashes because they are 'dangerous', when the clue is they have massively higher numbers of cars.
Clearly, you overlooked this: Suicide rates are 90 per cent higher in areas of high deprivation. Thus, we are not only talking about the number of youth suicides.
In search of finding solutions we seek reasons why the problem is occurring.
And one common denominator in this problem is suicide rates are 90 per cent higher in areas (note, areas, not just the far north) of high deprivation.
While I have respect for Mike and know he speaks from experience in this matter, he doesn't speak for everyone. Moreover, the negative impacts of living in poverty helps form and develop ones inner critic. Putting people in that dark space.
I looked up archives for TS wanting to see ratings for this site which I know we have and couldn't strike the right heading. Could someone give me a steer for where to find them please? ( I was looking at Open Parachute and remembered that lprent mentioned that some other meter was being used.)
On how the rhetoric used by conservative apologists mirrors that used by pre-war supporters of the south.
After the El Paso shooting, Ben Shapiro — a popular conservative podcaster — asked Americans to draw a line between the few conservatives who are white supremacists and those who, like him, aren’t. Almost all Americans are “on the same side,” he said, and “we should be mourning together.” In his telling, we aren’t, for “one simple reason: Too many on the political left [are] castigating the character of those who disagree,” lumping conservatives and political nonconformists together with racists and xenophobes.
I grew up in a conservative family. The people I talk to most frequently, the people I call when I need help, are conservative. I’m not inclined to paint conservatives as thoughtless bigots. But a few years ago, listening to the voices and arguments of commentators like Shapiro, I began to feel a very specific deja vu I couldn’t initially identify. It felt as if the arguments I was reading were eerily familiar. I found myself Googling lines from articles, especially when I read the rhetoric of a group of people we could call the “reasonable right.”
[…]
So it felt frustrating: When I read Weiss, when I listened to Shapiro, when I watched Peterson or read the supposedly heterodox online magazine Quillette, what was I reminded of?
My childhood home is just a half-hour drive from the Manassas battlefield in Virginia, and I grew up intensely fascinated by the Civil War. I loved perusing soldiers’ diaries. During my senior year in college, I studied almost nothing but Abraham Lincoln’s speeches. While I wrote my thesis on a key Lincoln address, Civil War rhetoric was almost all I read: not just that of the 16th president but also that of his adversaries.
Thinking back on those debates, I finally figured it out. The reasonable right’s rhetoric is exactly the same as the antebellum rhetoric I’d read so much of. The same exact words. The same exact arguments. Rhetoric, to be precise, in support of the slave-owning South.
A petition calling on the government not to suspend Parliament has gained more than one million signatures, while more than 50 MPs from the main parties have also pledged to set up an alternative House of Commons if the suspension goes forward. …
In London, thousands of angry protesters on Saturday rallied outside Downing Street, the official residence of the prime minister, to oppose the controversial move scheduled for early September….
More than 80 protests across the UK on Saturday were organised by the anti-Brexit campaign group Another Europe is Possible and were led by Momentum – a left-wing caucus within the opposition Labour Party. The organisers named the protests "Stop the Coup" in reference to Johnson's plans.
The gathering in London brought together people from a range of backgrounds.
Paddy Gemmell, 15, a student from London, said the suspension of Parliament is "undemocratic".
"Since people voted for Brexit many have begun to understand what that actually means and have changed their minds – their voices should be heard," he said.
Lies were told before the vote by the Remainers you only read the Guardian who are hyper partisan on remain at all costs so they ignore all the nonsense they told before the referendum vote. It was so bad they even had a code name for it Project Fear
"In May 2016, then-chancellor George Osborne warned leaving the EU could cause a drop in house prices of 18% – it didn’t materialise and 11 months later, Nigel Farage was crowing as prices continued to rise."
George Osborne, the then Chancellor, said in a BBC Radio 4 interview that leaving the European Union would cause "financial instability" and leave "no economic plan," which would need an immediate response from the government. "There would have to be increases in tax and cuts in public spending to fill the black hole," he said.
Good to see the backlash against this odious decision to auction off this significant Māori cloak by the english. This is not the 1840s anymore… This taonga needs to be sent back to the iwi in NZ where it belongs free of charge instead of living in a cupboard.
Indeed vile abuse and threats are not the best way to negotiate but I'd say that since Maori tried negotiating respectfully with English settlers 200 years ago and were treated to vile abuse, their descendants feel no obligation now to conduct themselves with much decorum towards these English.
Hurt people hurt. For generations.
This cloak meant nothing to these people for a hundred years and now that it's been valued in monetary terms they no longer care to return it to Ngāti Maniapoto. It means money to them, nothing else.
What about others like those with endemitriosis? – just affects women. Or Chronic Fatigue Syndrome – they're too tired to get up and do something for themselves, No cancer is the in-disease at the present.
It was labour party election policy to establish a new 'agency' Look it up
Maybe cancer is the 'in disease' because it has in some instances high death rates compared to your ridiculous 'chronic fatigue syndrome' ( Is there even a established treatment or new medication that can be funded – didnt think so)
Those of us who have cancers would prefer it not to be the in-disease 🙂
I have a resection due in ten days, so I have a stake in the matter. My fourth diagnosis so far. It does have an emotional component for many people and I can see that others with life threatening and serious diseases would feel the same about their particular affliction.
Money does help. Last night I attended a support group meeting of fellow sufferers and partners. One man has a three monthly drug to take. He saw the price tag once. $1003 for one dose. Effective though. A good man and husband is kept alive and functioning by the state's expenditure.
Is it possible that someone who has had cancer can understand that others are aching for assistance, who are not faced with a terminal disease. Such a lot of cancer sufferers wish to have a longer life without consideration of the cost. They don't want to die, they don't want to pay out their own money to buy the expensive nostrums, and they don't care that the country already is not providing basic services for young needy people.
Perhaps we should have a voucher system, a lifetime allowance with a few allowances for rare cases. And age needs to become of importance. Once you are over 70? If not then, what would be reasonable, 75, 80? And then palliative care only.
Thanks for the response, greywarshark. This is a difficult issue, not because I have again an operable cancer, but because it gets into issues such as you have raised about age, whether we should countenance triage with age as a consideration, use of available resources with a voucher system to restrict overuse of resources, and more assistance to people with non-terminal but needed services.
Firstly, I reject the ageism. I am about to turn 70 but a form of selectivity based on age is a very dangerous notion considering what else may be used as a criterion like mental health, cretinism, genetic disorders, putative contributions to society, membership of social outgroups based on ethnicity, lifestyles, religion, immigration status. You see where this can lead?
I also reject your assertion that older people don't care about provision of services to needy young people. That is also ageist, wrong and unworthy.
I reject your assertion that they don't want to pay out of their own money for what you dismiss as 'nostrums', which is defined as "a medicine prepared by an unqualified person, especially one that is not considered effective."
greywarshark, your style of argument is very difficult to wish to continue with. I thank you for your response but earnestly ask that you full consider how you argue and what you are actually espousing.
I understand that you are arguing for a group either young or missing out in your view on adequate services and treatment. If you have someone in that situation, then I feel for you.
There are other answers than dumping on other groups.
A huge amount of what we argue about concerns allocation of resources.
The resources are there. Do we want to do this or do that? Defence or health? Bailouts for failed businesses or education? Tax breaks or prison reform? Support for films, world rugby and yachting cups or mental health?
Maybe there is still not enough money. And consider that old folk have children and grandchildren that they wish the best for. And vice versa. I am unhappy to see this discussion descend into an "us versus them" scenario.
Better that we promote our causes, acknowledge the shortfalls and discuss how we best justly allocate our resources based on reason, actual need and fairness.
Are we getting value for money out of our parliamentarians (from all parties)?
Or do we pay them too much?
The PM currently gets about nine times the average wage. While others receive less, they still receive more than the average worker.
And considering the poor state of the nation (and not just of late) is paying them so much really attracting quality representation?
Moreover, is paying them so much (putting them in the top one per cent of income earners) a problem (as in, with high incomes as such, so many of them are now out of touch with your average voter) thus continually fail to improve life for the majority?
Is it long past time we reset (lower) the incomes of our MPs?
The Chairman, I'll tell you just one story I know to be true. A former MP had two terms in a marginal seat. The night he lost the seat someone burned down the barn on a little farmlet he had. No employer would give this former MP a job. He had to subsist on his farmlet. He was generous with his own money whilst an MP. I know.
There are risks involved in being an MP. It's a hard life. A British MP was murdered, remember.
Tne last point I make is one I made to Geoffrey Palmer many years ago. We pay our MPs, judges etc well to lessen the threat of corruption and bribery. It is one of the fair prices of democracy.
So we are paying them exorbitant amounts of danger money? When others (such as police officers) in dangerous jobs aren't paid nowhere near as much.
As for averting the potential for corruption, some would argue that's largely a fail. Moreover, we can and should better police that.
[Attributing words, feelings, emotions, beliefs, or motives to other commenters does not make for a constructive debate. If you feel the need to make assumptions, you must check these before you take them as a given. Please pay close attention to mac1’s first sentence in his response @ 14.1.1.1 to you – Incognito]
I think you have taken one part of what I said, exaggerated it hugely, and attributed to me beliefs that I do not have.
To respond to your point re corruption, yes we need to have and I believe do have sufficient safeguards regarding police and the judiciary.
But, paying well enough that there is no temptation to augment the income with a little under-counter extra is a good strategy. Better than paying very good salaries to incorrupt guardians to oversee our guardian police, judiciary and MPs because if the guardians of the guardians are corruptible through insufficient financial independence, then we're back worse than when we started. Whew!
There are risks involved in being an MP. It's a hard life. A British MP was murdered, remember.
The above quote were your words.
Therefore, I asked (not exaggerated it hugely and attributed to your beliefs) if we are paying them exorbitant amounts of danger money?
Which you have yet to clarify.
But, paying well enough that there is no temptation to augment the income with a little under-counter extra is a good strategy.
If our policing of this was/is fully robust we wouldn't require this strategy.
Moreover, regardless how much we pay our MP's they could still be open to corruption as those (affluent multinational corporations for argument sake) that wanted to bribe them would merely offer them more to sway them.
Therefore, it really falls down to how well this type of corruption is policed.
I don't think the salaries are particularly exhorbitant. It's an important job with significant responsibilities, and for every one who walks into a highly paid lobbying or directorship job related to their political life, there are several who simply go back to their homes and former careers.
And yes, there is a reputational (and sometimes physical) risk associated with the job.
Should they be paid more than cops or whatever? I think a better equivalence would be between politicians and upper management. 120 people in charge of a $300 billion, 4.7million person organisation? From that perspective, they're cheap.
I don't think the salaries are particularly exhorbitant.
In comparison to the average worker, it's exorbitant.
In comparison to a CEO, not so much.
I'm not denying there is a risk to the job. But there are risks with many jobs that don't reward nowhere as much.
And just because they oversee a lot (money/population) doesn't mean they are doing a good job of it, thus they should be rewarded on performance on top of a far lower base salary, which takes into account how well those on the bottom are impacted from their decisions/oversight.
I prefer pay-based performance; employer unions generally aren't too keen on performance-based pay.
“And then there’s the opposition. Where are they?
National has lost the CGT as an attack weapon against the Government – they’re going to have to pony up for a bit more than the great slushy machine scandal of 2019.
They should be all over Tomorrows Schools – why are National MP Nikki Kaye’s public meetings in school halls not getting more coverage or cut through? Why is her voice not louder?
What about NZ First’s view on Tomorrow’s Schools? Why are they so quiet on this? Are they keeping their powder dry until the last minute, much like they did on the CGT?
Another concern out of the discussion being flushed through the public domain currently is the focal points of conversation. Why are we talking about yet more increased bureaucracy, when we should be talking about teacher shortages, teacher churn, the ageing teaching cohort, lack of male teachers, teachers being under-paid.
What about the hefty union involvement in teaching? Union leaders blocking discussion around performance-based pay? Making good teachers feel as though demanding money based on productivity is criminal. Worse, ensuring under-performing teachers are a protected species.“
Let me put it another way: someone works 40hr/wk for $50k. Would you expect them to throw their hat in the ring, quit that permanent job for maybe three years on the same rate, mostly working longer hours based in another town, and bunging you in the public eye?
They are still paid rather well (albeit less) if they aren't re-elected.
Let me put it another way: someone works 40hr/wk for $50k. Would you expect them to throw their hat in the ring, quit that permanent job for maybe three years on the same rate, mostly working longer hours based in another town, and bunging you in the public eye?
On performance based pay they still have the opportunity to do a good job and be better compensated. Giving them the incentive to do better.
It's performance-based job retention. Judged by their employers, the electorate.
"Performance-based pay" is a stupid idea for anything that doesn't have clearly quantifiable benchmarks with simple inputs that are largely in the control of the worker. But it sounds good when applied to teachers and politicians, even if the people calling for it have no idea about how to implement it fairly both for the employee and the people the employee is supposed to serve.
Reading and thinking over the thread, I'm just getting fucked off. If we pay MPs fuckall, then only the rich can afford to be MPs. If we pay them an average wage, then no average worker would risk their livelihood or the family's income for precarious employment that has no financial advantage.
Not that you've stated how performance would be judged (or by whom), or the vague ballpark of payscales you'd like to see for politicians.
You're just, yet again, spouting right wing platitudes that serve only to make the rich more powerful and the poor more easy to get removed from the political system.
It's performance-based job retention. Judged by their employers, .
Unfortunately, the electorate (their employers) don't currently set or have any input on their salaries. Nor can the public fully dismiss them. Whether or not they are re-elected they are still employed in opposition. Unless of course they don't make that 5% threshold. Therefore, it's not really (albeit to a very limited extent) performance-based job retention.
I agree, clearly quantifiable benchmarks are vital in performance base pay. Hence, it's not suited to all work places/professions. However, I think we could make it work for politicians.
I disagree that only the rich would be able to afford to be an MP. As the base rate would be reasonable.
Moreover, it’s a privilege to serve the people. We should be seeking those that are not only capable but have a genuine passion and desire for it. Not those only seeking a huge salary. Additionally, there is little risk. The average wage is alright (albeit they would be getting above that) and the job is fairly secure. Even in opposition, one would be paid. On top of that, some like to travel and the down times (holidays/breaks) are rather generous. Making up for time away from home. And their pension scheme is good. It may not suit all, but not all are suited to every job. So I don't see any justification for your anger.
Not that you've stated how performance would be judged (or by whom), or the vague ballpark of payscales you'd like to see for politicians.
That would be up for public debate, after all, we are their employers.
I agree, clearly quantifiable benchmarks are vital in performance base pay. Hence, it's not suited to all work places/professions. However, I think we could make it work for politicians.
How? Why do you think that? Every quanta for a politician I can think of is either easily rortable or doesn't reflect quality of performance.
And the public does get to dismiss them every three years.
I disagree that only the rich would be able to afford to be an MP. As the base rate would be reasonable.
Reasonable for a permanent average job. Not for someone to risk their family's livelihood on by quitting steady, permanent employment. That's why it would be a folly for the rich, not a realistic proposition for the average person.
I’m angry because I think you should know this, whether you are genuinely left wing or a tory in disguise.
Reading and thinking over the thread, I'm just getting fucked off. If we pay MPs fuckall, then only the rich can afford to be MPs.
Currently, once one becomes an MP they become one of the elite (the rich) hence part of the problem we need to solve.
And the public does get to dismiss them every three years.
Not if they merely end up in opposition, thus still on the payroll.
How? Why do you think that?
Glad you asked. By further empowering voters.
Being an MP is a extremely unique occupation. As in, your employer is all of us.
Therefore, I suggest along with the public having input on their base rate, we should also be given the opportunity to determine their performance rate. This could be done every three years at election.
The public could/should be allowed to have input in setting a performance scale range and decide on how they individually feel the Government/MP's have performed. Giving the Government/MP's a further incentive to better work for the majority.
If we pay MPs fuckall, then only the rich can afford to be MPs.
Currently, once one becomes an MP they become one of the elite (the rich) hence part of the problem we need to solve.
That doesn't address the point I raised.
And the public does get to dismiss them every three years.
Not if they merely end up in opposition, thus still on the payroll.
Which they can only do if they maintain the support of their electorate or their party. Otherwise, they're out.
Therefore, I suggest along with the public having input on their base rate, we should also be given the opportunity to determine their performance rate. This could be done every three years at election.
🙄
How? You're not actually stating a position.
In today's gig economy, not many are lucky enough to have a permanent secure job. Moreover, if one enters parliament via Labour or National their employment is largely secure by either being in Government or in opposition, thus on the public payroll.
Not for someone to risk their family's livelihood on by quitting steady, permanent employment.
In today's gig economy, not many are lucky enough to have a permanent secure job. Moreover, if one enters parliament via Labour or National their employment is largely secure by either being in Government or in opposition, thus on the public payroll.
If MP's need lots of money to refrain from unethical or corrupt behavior, then I think they are not the sort of people we need in Parliament.
Obviously, having some of the highest MP salaries in the Western world, has failed in this regard. With many instances of unethical and dis honest behavior.
Salaries do make it affordable for normal people to be in Parliament. Before MP 's were paid, Parliament was almost exclusively idle absentee landowners.
I don't see why they should be paid more than a school senior teacher, however.
Pensions commensurate with those paid to military personnel would be more appropriate than the current fortune.
The other problem is the make up of Parliament. A distinct lack of tradespeople for one. And way to many lawyers and failed businessmen.
In the grand scheme of things, the money is a drop in the ocean. Many public servants are paid more.
The role needs to be something capable people aspire to. Spending weeks away from home and pulling a living wage would result in representation that would have you posting non-stop.
Chairman, I think if you lived in The Garden of Eden you'd spend your time lodging complaints. "Dear God, I saw a weed amongst the Lavender yesterday."
I'm sorry you find living in New Zealand such a grind. I don't suppose it's going to make you feel much better but I love it.
However, it's doesn't change the reality of the stats – i.e. the rich are getting richer as more people are queuing for food and hardship grants, while a growing number are sleeping rough.
Ask them if they think politicians are value for money and working hard for them.
It's underwritten by "If you don't want me to top myself, give me money."
I think a better approach is…"Of course you have value and can make as much money as your imagination will allow you to. Come with me and I'll show you how."
As Mike King says, it's about our inner critics. We all have them, it's about where we're at with our inner critics. We need to learn to be there for those that are carrying obese inner critics. Poor, rich, brown, white, whatever.
Chairman, I think if you lived in The Garden of Eden you'd spend your time lodging complaints. "Dear God, I saw a weed amongst the Lavender yesterday."
The discussion isn't about me. Try addressing the points I made.
Not all are doing badly, The rich are getting richer.
And some may argue (which I am) that this comes down to (in part) because of policy made by politicians that are out of touch with the needs of the majority.
Additionally, re mac1's claim re threats being made on politicians, perhaps they wouldn't be threaten as much if they better represented the majority and not the elite (like them) getting richer .
I think The Chairman's problems with NZ would be all fixed if the government gave him an extra $1000 a week. I think it's more about you than you acknowledge.
The government is never going to make anyone well off Chairman. Those that want to be comfortable will need to make their own arrangements.
I think The Chairman's problems with NZ would be all fixed if the government gave him an extra $1000 a week. I think it's more about you than you acknowledge.
Again, it's not about me. Try again.
The government is never going to make anyone well off Chairman
Well, no CGT sure helps property flippers build their wealth. And don't they (a number of politicians) along with their high incomes have property investment?
Geez, you seem very concerned about other peoples' money. How much have you got?
It sort of is about you. It's you that is perpetually disgruntled. I'm cranking snapper and singing 3 chord anthems at the pub.
I'm quick to poke finger at a politician in here, but life in NZ? I don't slag NZ, I love living in New Zealand.
You seem to be having a crappy time of it Chair. You care too much to be a mere observer. I fear the shortcomings you highlight are more to do with your poison ivy coloured glasses than the targets you're quick to zero in on.
But hey, this is the sort of conversation we should have mano on mano. You need a reboot from someone you love….Unless you aspire to be known as the perpetually negative person that is an expert at finding fault and useless at identifying solutions….nobody wants to be that guy.
Life in NZ doesn't suck any where near as much as you would have us believe.
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The State Services Commission and Ombudsman have released another batch of OIA statistics, covering the last six months. Request volumes are up, and the core public service is generally handling them within the legal timeframe, though this may be because they've learned to extend rather than just ignore things. And ...
In 1994, I was editing an ambitious street mag called Planet, from a fabled office at at 309 Karangahape Road. The thirteenth issue of the magazine was published in the winter of that year and its cover embodied a particularly ambitious goal: the end of cannabis prohibition.I wanted to do ...
KiwiBuild was one of the Ardern government's core policies. The government would end the housing crisis and make housing affordable again by building 100,000 new homes. Of course, it didn't work out like that: targets weren't met, the houses they did build were in the wrong place, and the whole ...
As the climate crisis escalates, it is now obvious that we need to radically decarbonise our economy. The good news is that its looking easy and profitable for the energy sector. Wind is already cheaper than fossil fuels, and now solar is too:The levellised cost of solar PV has fallen ...
NZUS Council executive director Jordan Small welcomes the news New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern will meet with US President Donald Trump in New York next week. ...
The recent NZIER report trivialises the significant role the dairy sector plays in New Zealand’s economy – and fails to look at the specifics of the Government’s freshwater package, according to DairyNZ. DairyNZ chief executive Dr Tim Mackle said ...
This week, the New Zealand Parliament and the Inter-Parliamentary Union (IPU) will jointly host a seminar on tackling the global spread of illicit weapons. ...
In a landmark judgment issued this morning, the Court of Appeal confirmed that the Southern Response Concealment Class Action will proceed issued on an "opt out” basis. ...
Mainstream media, as the purveyors of truth and source of balanced information, took another backward step today with the announcement by Stuff that most New Zealand organisations had joined 170 media outlets from around the world in the “Covering ...
The goal of one million Kiwis having basic conversations in te reo by 2040 is unrealistic if more is not done to get serious about reo acquisition says the Māori Party. “While small steps have been taken to bolster efforts to increase the numbers of speakers, ...
Changes announced today by the Immigration Minister to employer-assisted visas will help businesses, but more work is needed to boost economic growth says Business Central. ...
DairyNZ Chief Executive Dr Tim Mackle is welcoming today’s announcement that the Government will be streamlining the employer assisted work visa process to help businesses and farms fill skills shortages. ...
Lawrence Yule MP wrote to our Office with concerns about the Department of Corrections' approach to procuring design and build services for rapid deployment of prison accommodation. We have published our response to Mr Yule on our website . ...
That from the chair of the Wellington Region of the College of Midwives, Siobhan Connor, following the news that Hutt Valley District Health Board is targeting midwives from overseas to help fill gaps in maternity units. ...
70% of New Zealand’s surface water take is allocated to Meridian’s Manapouri Power Scheme. But when Environment Minister David Parker asked to exempt the Scheme from his Freshwater Action Plan, he didn’t tell Cabinet that. ...
The Independent Police Conduct Authority has found that officers responded in a timely and appropriate manner as soon as they were aware that a fleeing driver had hit a pedestrian. ...
prevention and intervention. Following Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern’s post-Cabinet press conference we are encouraged to see the acknowledgement of the mistakes made and the need to address this. The five points outlined in the action plan, which ...
A surge in teen vaping rates and a series of deaths being linked to vaping has resulted in a number of bans on the sales of flavoured Vape juice products in the United States. Though it is widely acknowledged that vaping is far less harmful than smoking tobacco, ...
The governments’ new environmental proposals will further accentuate the move of good, productive farmland into forestry according to environmental lobby group 50 Shades of Green. ...
17 September 2019: New Zealanders are acutely aware of the impact food production processes have on our planet according to new research released today by the 5+ A Day Charitable Trust. ...
AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL is awarding three New Zealand climate youth groups with its Ambassador of Conscience award, its highest recognition for human rights work, previously given to the likes of Nelson Mandela, Ai Weiwei and Malala Yousafzai. ...
On 14 September 2017, the pipeline that brings diesel, petrol, and jet fuel from Marsden Point Oil Refinery into Auckland ruptured. It leaked jet fuel into rural properties and stopped the transmission of fuels into Auckland for 10 days. The rupture ...
Victims Advocate Louise Nicholas - Labour should have brought in “specialist support” “When there is a complaint especially a serious complaint of sexual assault, the first thing that should have happened was specialist support brought in to ensure ...
Energy and Resources Minister Megan Woods says New Zealand is ‘not close’ to bringing in oil reserves after the attack on Saudi fields. “We would have to see prices rise by about $20 per barrel in order for some of those strategic reserves ...
New Zealand's new fresh water regulation rules will have no major impacts on the national economy, according to an independent report just out. The report by independent economic consultancy New Zealand Institute of Economic Research shows that dairying ...
Fish & Game New Zealand has welcomed the findings of a New Zealand Institute of Economic Research report, which rejects claims the Government’s freshwater proposals will have a significant economic impact. ...
The Council of Licensed Firearms Owners (COLFO) says the Government should take its proposed firearms legislation to the people with a touring Select Committee, as it just has with the Zero Carbon bill. ...
Water reforms and the long term sustainability of water will be a key focus at the Water New Zealand conference and expo this week (18-20 September) in Hamilton. ...
“Kiwi ex-smokers are mobilising against the Government’s plans to drastically limit vaping flavours. Flavours have been key to them quitting tobacco and they now just want other smokers to have the same chance,” says Jonathan Devery, co-owner ...
Oil company Tamarind Resources has reportedly halted drilling at its Tui oil field off the Taranaki coast after the first of the three planned wells came up dry and bad weather caused delays. ...
The New Zealand Taxpayers’ Union is calling on the left-wing campaign group “ActionStation” to front up and be transparent about how much taxpayer funding it takes from the Government to underwrite its activism activities. Earlier in the month, the Taxpayers’ ...
The ‘ Unplanned ’ movie is here and Family First has secured one of the first screenings in New Zealand tonight. ‘Unplanned’ brings an eye-opening look inside the abortion industry from a woman who was once its most passionate advocate. All ...
James Renwick claim that NZ is failing on climate change is valid, and since James has been receiving widespread media coverage that we outline most of it again here now as we gear up for the ‘Global climate change conference’ beginning next week. ...
Protestors will be outside the venue of the fourth hearing for Operation Burnham Inquiry on Monday morning from 8.30am to give a message to former and current military officers as they arrive to speak about the ongoing coverup of the 2010 attack on ...
The long-running campaign against purported Chinese “interference” in New Zealand’s political system intensified in the past week following a five-day visit to Beijing by opposition National Party leader Simon Bridges. ...
National's Deputy Leader Paula Bennett spent the week claiming a serious cover-up in the Prime Minister's office. She used parliamentary privilege to name three of the Prime Minister's closest advisors who, she says, knew about the sexual assault ...
Six months on from the worst terrorist attack in New Zealand history, Simon Shepherd asked Al Noor Mosque spokesperson Anthony Green how the Christchurch Muslim is community faring. ...
“The Game Animal Council is concerned that the Government’s second tranche of firearms legislation released today may contain unreasonable provisions that will unfairly impact hunters,” says Game Animal Council Chair Don Hammond. ...
Government policy work on the Carbon Zero bill highlights connections between climate change, carbon sequestration and agriculture. Water quality and allocation are also topical with the release of the Draft Policy Statement for Freshwater Management ...
DairyNZ Chief Executive Dr Tim Mackle is welcoming this afternoon’s announcement that consultation on Essential Freshwater has been extended by two weeks - but is calling on the Minister to go further. ...
DairyNZ chief executive Dr Tim Mackle is calling on the Government to move swiftly to extend the six-week timeframe of the Essential Freshwater consultation. ...
Immigration New Zealand could really benefit from an large investment of money, comments Ms June Ranson, chair of the New Zealand Association for Migration and Investment (NZAMI) , a leading voice in the immigration sector. “Instead of spending $25m ...
In recent times there has been no shortage of commentary regarding whistleblowers, with the proposed amendments to the Protected Disclosures Act 2000. These are aimed at strengthening the protection available to whistleblowers in New Zealand. That ...
Gun Control NZ strongly welcomes the comprehensive gun law reform bill and calls on all political parties to support it. Gun Control NZ encourages New Zealanders to let their MPs know they support this Bill, submit to the Select Committee, and ...
Federated Farmers agrees with most of the steps by government to protect people from illegal or irresponsible firearms use. But concerns about pest control and the effectiveness of a register remain. ...
Today at Parliament the NZ Drug Foundation released Taking control of cannabis: A model for responsible regulation, a new report that shows how we can take back control of cannabis from organised crime. ...
It was another wild week in our favourite island paradise, as our remaining celebrities continued their quest to win cash for charity. Tara Ward power ranks. The bells of change have rung on Celebrity Treasure Island, and we’re now knee deep in an individual game of trickery, ping-pongery, and Tim-Tammery. The two ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra Arthur Sinodinos will soon leave the Senate, and early next year take up the position of Australian ambassador in Washington. A former staffer and one-time public servant as well as a former minister, in this ...
The fishing industry is fighting back against claims its ad campaign is 'spin', saying protecting the Māui dolphin shouldn’t come at the expense of commercial fishers. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Melanie Walters, PhD candidate in music, University of Adelaide Review: XXX Neon Sign, composed by Dan Thorpe, Rumpus Theatre More than perhaps any other instrument, the grand piano symbolises the classical music canon and its rigid traditions. Placing such an instrument centre-stage ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sebastian Leuzinger, Associate Professor, Auckland University of Technology CC BY-NDClimate Explained is a collaboration between The Conversation, Stuff and the New Zealand Science Media Centre to answer your questions about climate change.If you have a question you’d like an expert to ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Steven Conway, Senior Lecturer – Games and Interactivity, Swinburne University of Technology Two of the biggest tech companies in the world, Apple and Google, are launching cloud-based gaming services this year. Apple Arcade, due for release in two days, will ultimately go ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Andy Marks, Assistant Vice-Chancellor, Strategy and Policy, Western Sydney University “How good is Gladys Berejiklian?” Prime Minister Scott Morrison asked a jubilant crowd of Liberal supporters on the evening of her March 23 2019 state election win. Only as good as her ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Fiona Charlson, Conjoint NHMRC Early Career Fellow, The University of Queensland This story is part of Covering Climate Now, a global collaboration of more than 250 news outlets to strengthen coverage of the climate story. The Australian Medical Association (AMA) recently declared ...
Life insurance companies have been taken to task for being too slow to improve their culture and conduct by regulators, which appears set to lead to tougher regulation. ...
In this extract from a chapter called ‘Deep Time’ in Rebecca Priestley’s new memoir, Fifteen Million Years in Antarctica, Rebecca remembers her peculiar, legume-heavy, art-saturated childhood in Wellington. (And a note from the author: if anyone has a painting from Ruth Priestley’s Antarctic Dream series, Rebecca would love to hear from ...
The government is introducing a new employer-led work visa that it says will help plug shortages, reduce exploitation, and improve conditions for New Zealand workers. ...
The Spinoff’s cartoonist Toby Morris chats and draws with New Zealand’s doodlers in the webseries Two Sketches. In the fifth episode, Toby sits down with comic artist Ben Stenbeck. Two Sketches returns with another leisurely draw and a chat hosted by award-winning illustrator Toby Morris. In this episode, Toby chats with ...
The government's proposed clean up of waterways will not harm New Zealand's overall economy, a report by the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research (NZIER) has suggested. ...
New Netflix movie The Tall Girl was roundly mocked before it even came out. Josie Adams, a tall girl herself, reviews it.“You know that really, really, really tall girl you go to school with? The one that people call LeBron, Skyscraper, Patty long legs?”That’s Jodi, the 6-foot-1 protagonist of The ...
A spate of court cases around the world has highlighted a new kind of risk for carbon emitters, and the big investors that support them - expensive litigation. ...
The government's proposed clean up of waterways will not harm New Zealand's overall economy, a report by the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research (NZIER) has suggested. ...
The government's proposed clean up of waterways will not harm New Zealand's overall economy, a report by the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research (NZIER) has suggested. ...
Children, pregnant women and the elderly are the most at risk from extreme weather and heat – but the impact is already felt across every specialty of medicine. ...
Most KiwiSaver funds are managed by one of the big Australian banks, which create returns through investments in fossil fuels, human rights violations, tobacco and weaponry. With attitudes shifting towards sustainability, what can ordinary investors do?This month 16-year-old climate activist Greta Thunberg completed a journey across the Atlantic in a ...
A swathe of gloomy global headlines appear to have further dampened consumers' outlook about the economy but they are feeling more upbeat about their own personal finances. ...
Covering Climate Now: From CFCs to nuclear weapons, history has shown that the first step to eliminating a threat is to ban it, argues Thomas Nash.The Spinoff’s participation in Covering Climate Now is made possible thanks to the contributions of Spinoff Members. Join The Spinoff Members to help us do ...
Editor’s Note: Here below is a list of the main issues currently under discussion in New Zealand and links to media coverage.New Zealand Parliament Buildings, Wellington, New Zealand.Today’s content by Dr Bryce Edwards.Labour Party sexual assault allegations Richard Harman (Politik): Goodbye Labour – Hello Brand Jacinda Barry ...
Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has "called time" on opposing claims over sexual assault allegations against a Labour Party staffer being contested in public. ...
ByRNZ Pacific Taiwan’s President Tsai Ing-wen has said she “regrets and strongly condemns” the Solomon Islands’ decision to establish diplomatic relations with China. The Solomons cabinet made the decision yesterday after which Taiwan terminated its 36-year relationship with the Pacific country. Tsai said China’s promises of financial assistance ...
In our latest local elections 2019 race briefing (read the rest here), Josie Adams assesses the bastion of progressive virtue that is Dunedin/Ōtepoti.The Spinoff local election coverage is made possible thanks to The SpinoffMembers. For more about becoming a member and supporting The Spinoff’s journalism click here.Where?Dunedin, or Ōtepoti, is also known as “the ...
The Commerce Commission has been accused of miscalculating how much money the country's biggest fuel retailer Z Energy is making, in its initial report on competition in the sector. ...
A Canterbury startup is exposing medical equipment manufacturers’ deliberate one-use design tricks and proving that hospitals can reuse and recycle. There has been a lot of hype about the phasing out of plastic bags at supermarkets. But what about far more expensive items which only ever get used once and are ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Paul Wilkes, Senior Research Geophysicist, CSIRO At some point in recent weeks, a once-in-a-lifetime event happened for people at Greenwich in the United Kingdom. Magnetic compasses at the historic London area, known as the home of the Prime Meridian, were said to ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Alison McEwen, Head of Discipline of Genetic Counselling, Graduate School of Health, University of Technology Sydney If you have a question you’d like an expert to answer, send it to curiouskids@theconversation.edu.au.Why are some twins identical and some not? – Chloe, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Marc Hudson, Researcher, University of Manchester Paddy Manning’s excellent account of the Australian Greens will not be the last word on Australia’s most successful third party, but will doubtless remain important and influential for many years to come. Manning’s exhaustive (but never ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Abby Mellick Lopes, Senior Lecturer in Design, Western Sydney University This story is part of Covering Climate Now, a global collaboration of more than 250 news outlets to strengthen coverage of the climate story. A recent report by the Greater Sydney Commission ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Eve Vincent, Senior Lecturer, Macquarie University “This is a bit controversial, we know that,” deputy prime minister Michael McCormick told the National Party’s federal council, which on the weekend voted for a national roll-out of cashless debit cards for anyone younger than ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Pat Ranald, Research fellow, University of Sydney The Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership has been touted as the best hope for keeping world trade flowing after the attacks on the World Trade Organisation. The WTO isn’t dead yet, but in a two-pronged attack, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sasha Grishin, Adjunct Professor of Art History, Australian National University In 1955, an enormous photographic exhibition, The Family of Man, challenged the world as to what it meant to be human. The curator, Edward Steichen, assembled 503 photographs by 273 photographers from ...
Open mike 01/09/2019 
A short and incredibly powerful speech from a young lesbian woman. No one is born in the wrong body. ...6 hours ago
Back in June, the UK Court of Appeal ruled that that country's continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia were unlawful. So you'd expect that the UK government stopped approving them, right?Of course not:The government has apologised for breaching a court ruling against the sale of weapons to Saudi Arabia that ...7 hours ago
14 hours ago
In times of hysteria about the “World coming to an end” and “rising sea levels” so-called ‘Journalists’ who can barely spell words longer than four letters are having a ball! Though the majority of the Public have worked out that manmade climate change is nothing short of pseudo-science, and the ...14 hours ago
1 day ago
Dangerous Foes: For those readers of Bowalley Road who feel disposed to dismiss any prospect of an Israeli destabilisation of New Zealand politics, the example of the United Kingdom repays close attention. Ever since the election of Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the British Labour Party, the Israelis have sanctioned, funded and ...1 day ago
Make It 16, the youth-led campaign to lower New Zealand's voting age, is holding an official campaign launch at Parliament this Friday from 16:30. If you'd like to attend, you can register using EventBrite here. ...1 day ago
by Don Franks It was a lovely sunny Wellington afternoon with blue skies above the beaches. In Courtenay Place, political activists packed out a stuffy upstairs room for an important meeting. The assembled pacifists, anarchists, communists and independent young radicals of Peace Action Wellington felt the need for a mission ...1 day ago
From the Wall Street Journal:Inside a room of the ornately decorated Hotel du Palais during last month’s Group of Seven summit in Biarritz, France, President Trump awaited a meeting with Egyptian President Abdel Fattah Al Sisi. Mr. Trump looked over a gathering of American and Egyptian officials and called out in ...2 days ago
The Brexit issue has certainly brought with it a series of apparently difficult constitutional issues, many of them concerning the respective roles of the executive and parliament. Most of them arise because of the unwillingness of MPs, despite their professions to the contrary, to be bound by a constitutional rarity ...4 days ago
. . This blogpost is different to my usual format of reporting on issues… Since July 1011, I have blogged on a variety of political issues; near always political and/or environmental; mostly highly critical of the previous National Government. Other issues included Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands and repression of ...4 days ago
Those close to the Police Minister believe the initiative may be the result of Nash “seeing a great deal” on AliExpress. In a move that comes seemingly out of nowhere, Police Minister Stuart Nash announced this afternoon that he expects all frontline staff to don bearskin hats, famously worn by ...4 days ago
Moving And Shaking: There was a time when people spoke matter-of-factly about the “labour movement” – a political phenomenon understood to embrace much more than the Labour Party. Included within the term’s definition was the whole trade union movement – many of whose members looked upon the Labour Party as ...5 days ago
By Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern I am every bit as angry as you are. I am every bit as disappointed as you must be. The people with power, oversight and the ability to do something about these processes within the Labour Party should be ashamed. Whoever those people are, I ...5 days ago
Two-Faced? Labour insiders' commitment to the neoliberal status quo puts them at odds with their party’s membership; its trade union affiliates; and a majority of Labour voters, but this only serves to strengthen the perception they have of themselves as a special elite. Among the lesser breeds, they’ll talk up a ...6 days ago
By Simon Bridges. The following is a press release from the office of Simon Bridges, leader of The National Party. Key ora, New Zealand. Happy Maori Language Week. Look, I’m writing to you today because I want to clear something up. There’s been a lot of kerfuffle around some things ...6 days ago
Dr. Christopher Labos and Jonathan Jarry discuss the recent Canadian fluoride/IQ research. They provide an expert analysis of the paper and its problems. Click on image to go to podcast. The critical debate about the recent ... 6 days ago
An ambitious plan to fly to Los Angeles petered out into a brief sight-seeing trip and a desire to return home and get some sleep before work tomorrow. Air New Zealand has confirmed a flight to Los Angeles last night was turned back about a quarter of the way into ...7 days ago
There appears to be consensus – by omission – that the concept of indigenous futures should be accepted at face value. So I scavenged the internet to see if I could locate an academic descriptor or a framework around how we think about it as a concept, and whether it ...1 week ago
Here’s another novelty chocolate to shove in your gob, New Zealand Cadbury could be seeking to make itself great again with a rumoured new release: Pineapple Trumps, a spin on its classic chocolate-encased pineapple treat and do-it-yourself tooth remover. The global confectionery manufacturer and bumbling “before” character in an infomercial, ...1 week ago
During my time in the Pentagon I had the privilege of sitting down with military leaders and defence and security officials from a variety of Latin American nations. Sometimes I was present as a subordinate assistant to a senior US defence department official, sometimes as part of a delegation that ...1 week ago
Kia ora, Aotearoa. It’s that magical time of year. Te Wiki o te Reo Māori. In English, the week that frightens talk radio. As you probably know by now, all your favourite media outlets are participating, some more successfully than others. Stuff has changed its name to Puna for the ...1 week ago
Lost In Political Space: The most important takeaway from this latest Labour sexual assault scandal, which (if I may paraphrase Nixon’s White House counsel’s, John Dean’s, infamous description of Watergate) is “growing like a cancer” on the premiership, is the Labour Party organisation’s extraordinary professional paralysis in the face of ...1 week ago
Hi there, just call me Tim.We face tough problems, and I’d like to help, because there are solutions.An Auckand District Health Board member has nominated me for as a candidate for the ADHB, because her MS-related pain and fatigue is reduced with hemp products from Rotorua. Nothing else helped her. If I ...1 week ago
Bewhiskered Cassandra? Professor Hugh White’s chilling suggestion, advanced to select collections of academic, military and diplomatic Kiwi experts over the course of the past week, is that the assumptions upon which Australia and New Zealand have built their foreign affairs and defence policies for practically their entire histories – are ...1 week ago
Air New Zealand couldn’t believe its luck that this seemingly ideal piece of real estate had so far gone entirely unnoticed. Air New Zealand’s search for a site to build a second Auckland Airport may have made a breakthrough this afternoon, after employees scanning Google satellite imagery spotted a huge, ...2 weeks ago
Gayford, pictured here on The Project, before things got wildly out of control. A bold public relations move by the Government to encourage parents to vaccinate their children has gone horribly wrong. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern appeared on tonight’s episode of Three’s The Project, where the plan was for her ...2 weeks ago
Mr. Whippy’s business model has driven it down a dark road of intimidation. Residents in major centres around the country are becoming disgruntled by the increasingly aggressive actions of purported ice cream company Mr. Whippy, who have taken to parking on people’s front lawns and doorsteps in a desperate attempt ...2 weeks ago
Anti-fluoride activists have some wealthy backers – they are erecting billboards misrepresenting the Canadian study on many New Zealand cities – and local authorities are ordering their removal because of their scaremongering. Many New Zealanders ... 2 weeks ago
Following publication of this article, the Ministry has requested it to be noted that this supplied image is not necessarily representative of what the final house will look like, and it “probably won’t be that nice.” As part of today’s long-anticipated reset of the Government’s flagship KiwiBuild policy, Housing Minister ...2 weeks ago
NZUS Council executive director Jordan Small welcomes the news New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern will meet with US President Donald Trump in New York next week. ...2 hours ago
A former member of the Philippines strongman's Cabinet explains why she joined - and why the world must hold him to account. ...1 hour ago
It was another wild week in our favourite island paradise, as our remaining celebrities continued their quest to win cash for charity. Tara Ward power ranks. The bells of change have rung on Celebrity Treasure Island, and we’re now knee deep in an individual game of trickery, ping-pongery, and Tim-Tammery. The two ...1 hour ago
The Auditor General will be investigating the effectiveness of the firearm buy-back scheme. ...1 hour ago
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra Arthur Sinodinos will soon leave the Senate, and early next year take up the position of Australian ambassador in Washington. A former staffer and one-time public servant as well as a former minister, in this ...2 hours ago
A national conversation about population planning is not easy, but it's one we need to have, writes Laura Walters. ...4 hours ago
Two years ago, the Prime Minister says climate action was barely discussed at international summits - now, it's top of the agenda. ...4 hours ago
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Melanie Walters, PhD candidate in music, University of Adelaide Review: XXX Neon Sign, composed by Dan Thorpe, Rumpus Theatre More than perhaps any other instrument, the grand piano symbolises the classical music canon and its rigid traditions. Placing such an instrument centre-stage ...4 hours ago
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sebastian Leuzinger, Associate Professor, Auckland University of Technology CC BY-NDClimate Explained is a collaboration between The Conversation, Stuff and the New Zealand Science Media Centre to answer your questions about climate change. If you have a question you’d like an expert to ...5 hours ago
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Steven Conway, Senior Lecturer – Games and Interactivity, Swinburne University of Technology Two of the biggest tech companies in the world, Apple and Google, are launching cloud-based gaming services this year. Apple Arcade, due for release in two days, will ultimately go ...5 hours ago
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Fiona Charlson, Conjoint NHMRC Early Career Fellow, The University of Queensland This story is part of Covering Climate Now, a global collaboration of more than 250 news outlets to strengthen coverage of the climate story. The Australian Medical Association (AMA) recently declared ...7 hours ago
Life insurance companies have been taken to task for being too slow to improve their culture and conduct by regulators, which appears set to lead to tougher regulation. ...7 hours ago
The New Zealand dollar remains the 10th most traded currency globally, according to a new survey. ...7 hours ago
In this extract from a chapter called ‘Deep Time’ in Rebecca Priestley’s new memoir, Fifteen Million Years in Antarctica, Rebecca remembers her peculiar, legume-heavy, art-saturated childhood in Wellington. (And a note from the author: if anyone has a painting from Ruth Priestley’s Antarctic Dream series, Rebecca would love to hear from ...8 hours ago
After nine months and much consultation, the Government has unveiled its overhauled migrant worker scheme, to much industry acclaim. ...8 hours ago
The Spinoff’s cartoonist Toby Morris chats and draws with New Zealand’s doodlers in the webseries Two Sketches. In the fifth episode, Toby sits down with comic artist Ben Stenbeck. Two Sketches returns with another leisurely draw and a chat hosted by award-winning illustrator Toby Morris. In this episode, Toby chats with ...8 hours ago
Surprise, surprise. The waving of a wet bus ticket did little to encourage New Zealand's life insurers to behave better. ...9 hours ago
The government's proposed clean up of waterways will not harm New Zealand's overall economy, a report by the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research (NZIER) has suggested. ...9 hours ago
New Netflix movie The Tall Girl was roundly mocked before it even came out. Josie Adams, a tall girl herself, reviews it.“You know that really, really, really tall girl you go to school with? The one that people call LeBron, Skyscraper, Patty long legs?”That’s Jodi, the 6-foot-1 protagonist of The ...9 hours ago
A spate of court cases around the world has highlighted a new kind of risk for carbon emitters, and the big investors that support them - expensive litigation. ...9 hours ago
Performance poet Ben Fagan continues his investigation into just what exactly the term Pākehā means in contemporary New Zealand life. ...10 hours ago
Children, pregnant women and the elderly are the most at risk from extreme weather and heat – but the impact is already felt across every specialty of medicine. ...10 hours ago
Most KiwiSaver funds are managed by one of the big Australian banks, which create returns through investments in fossil fuels, human rights violations, tobacco and weaponry. With attitudes shifting towards sustainability, what can ordinary investors do?This month 16-year-old climate activist Greta Thunberg completed a journey across the Atlantic in a ...10 hours ago
A swathe of gloomy global headlines appear to have further dampened consumers' outlook about the economy but they are feeling more upbeat about their own personal finances. ...11 hours ago
The head of the Marsden Point oil refinery operator has resigned to lead the country's biggest energy company. ...11 hours ago
Covering Climate Now: From CFCs to nuclear weapons, history has shown that the first step to eliminating a threat is to ban it, argues Thomas Nash.The Spinoff’s participation in Covering Climate Now is made possible thanks to the contributions of Spinoff Members. Join The Spinoff Members to help us do ...11 hours ago
By RNZ Pacific Taiwan’s President Tsai Ing-wen has said she “regrets and strongly condemns” the Solomon Islands’ decision to establish diplomatic relations with China. The Solomons cabinet made the decision yesterday after which Taiwan terminated its 36-year relationship with the Pacific country. Tsai said China’s promises of financial assistance ...12 hours ago
The value of New Zealand's primary industry exports is expected to dip fractionally next year. ...12 hours ago
The Commerce Commission has been accused of miscalculating how much money the country's biggest fuel retailer Z Energy is making, in its initial report on competition in the sector. ...12 hours ago
A Canterbury startup is exposing medical equipment manufacturers’ deliberate one-use design tricks and proving that hospitals can reuse and recycle. There has been a lot of hype about the phasing out of plastic bags at supermarkets. But what about far more expensive items which only ever get used once and are ...13 hours ago
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Paul Wilkes, Senior Research Geophysicist, CSIRO At some point in recent weeks, a once-in-a-lifetime event happened for people at Greenwich in the United Kingdom. Magnetic compasses at the historic London area, known as the home of the Prime Meridian, were said to ...13 hours ago
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Tony Walker, Adjunct Professor, School of Communications, La Trobe University Australia’s attempts to secure the release of an Australian national and two with joint UK-Australian citizenship from an Iranian prison have become vastly more complicated following the brazen attacks on Saudi oil ...13 hours ago
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Alison McEwen, Head of Discipline of Genetic Counselling, Graduate School of Health, University of Technology Sydney If you have a question you’d like an expert to answer, send it to curiouskids@theconversation.edu.au. Why are some twins identical and some not? – Chloe, ...13 hours ago
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Tim Flannery, Professorial fellow, Melbourne Sustainable Society Institute, University of Melbourne In this age of rapidly melting glaciers, terrifying megafires and ever more puissant hurricanes, of acidifying and rising oceans, it is hard to believe that any further prod to climate action ...13 hours ago
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Marc Hudson, Researcher, University of Manchester Paddy Manning’s excellent account of the Australian Greens will not be the last word on Australia’s most successful third party, but will doubtless remain important and influential for many years to come. Manning’s exhaustive (but never ...13 hours ago
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Abby Mellick Lopes, Senior Lecturer in Design, Western Sydney University This story is part of Covering Climate Now, a global collaboration of more than 250 news outlets to strengthen coverage of the climate story. A recent report by the Greater Sydney Commission ...13 hours ago
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Eve Vincent, Senior Lecturer, Macquarie University “This is a bit controversial, we know that,” deputy prime minister Michael McCormick told the National Party’s federal council, which on the weekend voted for a national roll-out of cashless debit cards for anyone younger than ...13 hours ago
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sasha Grishin, Adjunct Professor of Art History, Australian National University In 1955, an enormous photographic exhibition, The Family of Man, challenged the world as to what it meant to be human. The curator, Edward Steichen, assembled 503 photographs by 273 photographers from ...13 hours ago
Very good points except theres no maybe about it:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/115396620/judith-collins-20-may-be-the-leader-national-need-to-take-on-jacindamania-in-2020
Pucky, did you see this article about your girl from a couple of days ago?
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2019/08/30/781560/judith-collins
I can't see how she could stay post-book, any version must deepen the already deep divisions and past behaviours the National Party are ignoring.
The article's author, Pucky?
* Brooke van Velden is a former Act Party candidate and political advisor in the office of Act Party leader David Seymour.
Oh dear!
*Current* staffer of Seymour, even. pffft
I did make the effort to read the piece and at the end, I noted the author's 'credentials'. The infamous quote from one Mandy Rice-Davies immediately sprung to mind.
Mr Melville's well-housed, well- warmed, and well-fed critic personified.
was there a 'well watered' ?
Since was previously with "Excreltium" was that a given
https://nz.linkedin.com/in/brookevanvelden
So ACT are going to terminally destabilise National to create a "Collins" party in the hope of a right wing nirvana.
This could be entertaining.
BVV has twitter that she is going to be writing for nzstuff and her opinions seen regularly in Sunday Star Times.
https://twitter.com/BrookevanVelden?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
I see really good opinions regularly on TS. What about some of the writers seeking jobs on these news outlets? Or will they only accept RWs or dedicated controversialists? Well we have those too. Go for it I reckon, do what you love doing and get paid for it.
She's speaking the truth, It's almost as if Gods own words are flowing through her
I've seen video of such happenings; filmed in Haiti. Very dramatic.
*sings “Do, do that voodoo, that you do, so well…”
By “She”, you meant Judith, right?
I thought he was talking about Greta.
stop the presses..! – an actite has penned a puff-piece about judith collins…
act supporters – all 0.5% of them – must e feeling very proud..
the rest of us can just shrug – and move on…
Opinion pieces that are penned by Mps staff seems to scraping the bottom of the barrel- wouldnt it normally be ghost written by BVV and appear under Seymours name.
Or is it the other way round and Seymour does some bullet points and his office writes it up, but Seymour is too scared of offending nationals big wigs such as Bridges, Bennett and co so hides behind his employee
Genetic engineering is not required when organic farming has the solutions, writes Philippa Jamieson.
"Former chief science adviser Sir Peter Gluckman has said that New Zealand could become a ''backwater'' if we don't loosen up our laws governing genetic engineering. The ODT editorial (19.8.19) also claimed we are ''in serious danger of becoming uncompetitive''.
On the contrary! We stand to gain by remaining GE-free, and even better, by transitioning towards organics. Demand for clean, green, GE-free, safe, healthy, ethical organic food is increasing year on year – around the world and here in Aotearoa New Zealand."
https://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/no-ge-needed-new-zealand?fbclid=IwAR3agtF9RZbn0H9BAt6J2IW_i3cyfNO94wEVhYHZkoKyPElyIPDzUX2kXxU
You're right there
A small country like ours could be a niche provider of good quality food
We're an island, we don't have the problems of continental borders We are uniquely positioned to take advantage of this preference in the market
And apart from all that economic blather primarily we could do it through our commitment to more natural farming. Genetic selection and breeding , yes, forceful splicing( a kind of rape of a plant's integrity) , no
Industry will use climate change as a lever to dislodge the organic argument around GE.
Good to see a rebuttal of Sir Peter Gluckman the scientist that Gnats love to love. I think John Key made some comment about specialist advisors – that for every gambit that the Left could produce, he could produce a different one from the Right. So it is all a battle for whoever will prevail, and the devil take the hindmost despite real outcomes that need precaution to prevent, or positive input to create and encourage.
John Key on Dr Mike Joy.
Key got away with comparing legal opinions – which are just etheria- and science which is more rigorous and has a defined process to become peer reviewed .
The closest example is a court judgement after the opinions and facts have been presented.
Given that she's an organic food industry lobbyist, "Well she would say that, wouldn't she?" I expect a GE industry lobbyist would take a different view.
She would and they would. It's a nuanced discussion, that of organically-grown food in relation to that which is not grown that way. Some human industries might have been better to have been left as theory, rather than pursued, by humans; "germ warfare" for example, and I wonder if there's a bona fide way of knowing, at the outset, whether any particular path is a wise one to follow, or not. Clearly arguments can be made and won, even though the results might ultimately be catastrophic. Is there a way to judge, in the early stages, the wisdom of such proposals? The GE proposals are some that are met with strong feelings of opposition by people such as Philippa; is she correct in her position? Is it just "reasoned debate" that can determine the suitable path to take? Are the views of indigenous peoples the true measure of such proposals? I think that needs exploring.
The precautionary principle seems a useful frame to judge emerging tech. Do we actually *need GE foods? I can't see any reason why we do. If some consider it a nice to have, let's work with the precautionary principle first. Should have applied that to dairy conversions too.
There are some quite useful possibilities that come with the technology – soybeans modified to synthesize lysine for example, a protein chiefly found in fish, the absence of which slows growth rates in a number of domestic animals.
Unfortunately the technology seems to have been first adopted by the ravening loons at Monsanto, so they went after terminator genes and "roundup readiness". The former is a fairly reasonable use, the latter two not worth taking chances for.
I agree that Monsanto has taken things to whole new heights. However the soybean example would be a decades long experiment until we get large long term studies. If we look at the fat hypothesis, we can see half a century now of bad science and worse public health response and despite the problems with the hypothesis being well known for a decade we're still not moving on changing.
I just don't think we are anywhere near close to being able to responsibly assess and manage GE tech in the food chain. Part of that is capitalism and Monsanto culture, but those dynamics are throughout society including science and medicine.
The lysine soybeans were done long ago – Big Ag twisted Monsanto's arm.
Actually I think it can be assessed responsibly without too much trouble, the difficulty is once you say yes proponents will try to bring in everything, a very undesirable tendency.
There is also the thing that plant geneticists are possible well paid skilled occupations for a sustainable future society. NZ used to be good at that stuff, even without these new technologies.
"Actually I think it can be assessed responsibly without too much trouble"
How?
An assessment of value versus risk, with a field trial imposition or exclusion for not meeting value minimums. So that a crop field tested for twenty years or so might be okayed for general release – if it has no complaints against it in that time.
The difficulty would be to create a system robust enough to remain operative under the reckless stupidity of the current opposition – and that would certainly be an almost insurmountable challenge.
crop tested 20 years for what? I'm not sure what you are assessing there.
@Weka
It's a catchall.
The field test is to reveal problems not anticipated in the design phase. So going back to the lysine soybeans – have they any cultural (ie are they invasive or do they cross fertilize to a problematic degree) or do they develop toxicity or provoke allergic responses. If twenty years say no, they're not so different from comparable non GE soybeans and need not be restricted.
Plants designed for high pesticide resistance or to resist insect pests by accumulating toxins might have to reach a higher standard. But for example the GMO designed to restore the American Chestnut does not seem to be problematic, and subject to a trial, might be released.
“have they any cultural (ie are they invasive or do they cross fertilize to a problematic degree) or do they develop toxicity or provoke allergic responses”
How do you assess provoking allergic responses? Or other health issues? It sounds good in theory, but we know that people already have various reactions to eating soy, and that food intolerances seem to be increasing and we don’t yet know why. Add to that that science isn’t *that good at assessing combined and culmulative effects, nor understanding the synergistic aspect of plants that has come about via natural selection and how that impacts on humans (eg what’s the relationship of lysine to the other amino acids and other components and processes in the plant?), and I’ll invoke the precautionary principle again.
What’s the point of the lysine manipulation?
The point of lysine is that stock that lack it in their diets have their growth constrained – it need only be about 0.5 or 1 %. Traditionally this shortfall was made up with fishmeal, but growing demand versus declining supply has made that very expensive, and it promotes 'kill everything' fishing habits. I'm not sure if it is used for salmon feeds or the cooked legume based fish feeds they've developed in Oz, but in principle it would be sensible.
Allergy testing is usually by scratch tests, there are well standardized protocols.
This from weka is a very well put piece of truth that should be absorbed in every brain cell by those positing that increased technology and experimentation of any sort is what we need to overcome all our present and future problems.
There is an interesting example coming up for consideration that perhaps we could look at and that is a new version of ryegrass that has been trialled for NZ (I understand) in the USA. Has every downside of its use been examined carefully and objectively? If we did decide to use it, would we have complete ownership of it? Or have we foregone that by not doing the trials ourselves. Can we trust the firm to maintain their integrity and commit themselves and their employees to handing back to us all our material and renounce any interest in it?
The main problem is the current separation of responsibility, of the people making the money, shareholders, and the people who end up paying for the fuckups, us!
Simply changing company law, so that those who profit from any technology, or any business activity, are jointly strictly liable personally under criminal law, with penalties commensurate with the costs, for any consequent damage, would stop a lot of enthusiasm for untested technology.
Monsanto would fast lose their enthusiasm for roundup, if they knew there is a certainty of having to prove dead bees wasn't them.
The precautionary principle seems a useful frame to judge emerging tech.
The precautionary principle is a handy tool for opposing the introduction of a new technology, because it demands the inventors prove a negative. It's not very useful outside of that context.
Do we actually *need GE foods?
Nope. But then, given that we made it through half a billion years of evolution without using any technology at all until the last hundred thousand, the same answer applies to all technology – from stone tools through to artificial intelligence.
That's not what I meant though. I mean us, now, in the middle of the post-industrial revolution. Some tech we need eg how to maintain nuclear reactors so they don't cause mass damage. We need cancer treatments. We need ways of growing food. We don't have a lot of alternatives for preventing nuclear fallout or cancer, we do have perfectly adequate alternatives to GE for food growing. If half the effort (science and political) went into that instead of GE, we'd be well on our way to reducing ag GHGs by now.
"The precautionary principle is a handy tool for opposing the introduction of a new technology, because it demands the inventors prove a negative. It's not very useful outside of that context."
You say that like it's a bad thing.
Requiring people to prove a negative is a bad thing, both in this particular instance and as a general principle.
not in this case. Proof of a negative isn't required. Pro-GE people might frame it like that but that misses the point of the precautionary principle. If there's reasonable grounds for caution because of the unknown nature of the proposal, then the inability to prove a negative is useful. It slows us down so we can make better decisions.
Still wondering it it might be easier/better to ask someone wise
who did you have in mind?
Someone uncivilised.
Someone who hasn't suffered a cultural "death-by-a-thousand-cuts".
Someone who knows plants in the way you might know a family-member.
Maybe someone long-passed. Perhaps such a person has left words that we can apply to this situation.
Anyone spring to your mind?
Wrong spot!
Opposition to GE is essentially religious in nature, so no amount of testing will ever be enough to convince opponents that the precautionary principle has been satisfied. I don't see a difference between that and asking people to prove a negative.
Opposition to GE is essentially religious in nature,
Rubbish.
Opposition to rubbish is essentially religious 🙂
"Opposition to GE is essentially religious in nature"
Oh bullshit. Those who opposed to GE actually understand what the process is and how the result is an organism that cannot be proven to be safe, as opposed to organisms that we've been consuming for thousands of years that have only been changed by natural or specific selection. And if you claim GE is the same as selection by trait you don't understand what Genetic Engineering is. Though the name should give you some clue.
Support of GE is likewise, religious.
So, how to make the decisions?
Consult the religious leaders?
Or ask someone not contaminated by any religion?
Support of GE is likewise, religious.
If we define "religious" so broadly as to make it a meaningless term, sure.
So, how to make the decisions?
Evidence and rational argument is always a pretty good start. A demand to prove a negative isn't.
I fully agree. But it can never be complete, conclusive, definitive, and absolute. Nor can it be the be-all-end-all. Nor can it nullify emotions. Nor can it decide moral dilemmas.
"If we define "religious" so broadly as to make it a meaningless term, sure."
Not everyone is religious, nor every world-view religious. We could find someone untainted, I'm sure.
"Evidence and rational argument is always a pretty good start. A demand to prove a negative isn't. "
Lets start with evidence and rational argument then. I don't demand that anyone prove a negative.
Bull. Any science that is carried out by people who want to make a profit from a technology should be treated with suspicion.
And the cost benefit ratio to the community should be assessed. Including the degree of risk if it turns out like the introduction of rabbits, down the track.
After enough testing to ensure that it is safe enough.
Not forgetting what companies did to farmers over patented crops.
There are also commercial reasons to remain GE free for export crops. There is a huge market around the world to people who don't want to be lab rats.
Incognito: I understand that. It's why evidence and rational argument is a good place to start, not the be-all and end-all.
Robert: if we start with evidence and rational argument, it's up to GE opponents to explain what harm they envisage from GE, not to issue an impossible demand for GE researchers to prove that no damage could possibly occur.
"Robert: if we start with evidence and rational argument, it's up to GE opponents to explain what harm they envisage from GE, not to issue an impossible demand for GE researchers to prove that no damage could possibly occur. "
I agree. Will you put forward your evidence and rational argument so we can have a discussion? It would be interesting to start with one simple claim/aspect, rather than a general one; much easier to contain the discussion and hopefully, reach agreement.
Robert: it would be simpler to start with one simple aspect if GE opponents were only opposed to particular individual instances of it and unopposed to it as a general principle, but that isn't the case. Blanket rejection of GE as a technology requires evidence and rational argument for that blanket rejection.
Don't you think that sellers of technology should show that it is safe.
We even have safety requirements for car manufacturers. Crop and pesticide developers, especially in the USA, are largely self regulated, with only the threat of individual law suits. As with tobacco, those take decades to affect profits enough to have any effect.
Don't you think that sellers of technology should show that it is safe.
I certainly do. Technology like this requires thorough testing in a rigorous regulatory environment. Which we have.
The flip side of that question is equally valid: don't you think that once thorough testing in a tightly-regulated environment shows a technology is safe, its use should be permitted?
to Robert at 2: " Demand for…..safe organic food is increasing etc" is why this great gran is (after early swim to keep fit enough to accomplish it) going to spend this gorgeous Dunedin day attending to my vegies and berries as have done for decades. wherever my home. Importantly, the taste of food fresh from the garden is inestimably better than almost anything from supermarket shelves, conveniently at hand and cheaper.
"Are the views of indigenous peoples* the true measure of such proposals? I think that needs exploring."
*Or great grans
to Robert at 2.3.1. : enjoyed the smile…..NB that this great gran has enjoyed home grown food since babyhood and knows her onions regarding development in GE. Had gardens for my classes for decades …..also taught about greenhouse gas threat as soon as was in science journals.
At last, a genuine prospect of undoing the damage Max Bradford did to NZ's electricity system: https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/115323041/loyal-customers-set-to-benefit-from-electricity-review-but-gas-users-may-pay-more
You forgot one part about 'forced separation' of Telecom and Chorus
National government paid around $950 mill to buy 45% of Chorus AND provided 'soft loans' for Chorus to build Fibre street network PLUS tax payer funded installs ( $2000 each ?) from street backbone to ‘ fibre terminating unit’ inside the house.
There is a multi billion dollar public funded utility in controlled by a private business.
I always thought years ago that when Telecom was sold off ( so taxpayers wouldnt have to bail it out or fund its capital for expansion) that one day we would have to 'buy it back' – like we did with Kiwirail and Air NZ.
And by various means , we paid for it but didnt get the ownership !
Steven Joyce, negotiating genius. Even with Cunliffe having done the legwork on separation, his successor still managed to transfer more state money into private pockets to sweeten the deal.
Treasury must have had a seizure when they were asked to evaluate the proposal, dont recall much at the time .
Not only that but the whole fibre broadband tender from Chorus at the time was , as they say, 'non conforming' which it meant they didnt meet the terms and conditions. But they jacked up a backroom deal with Joyce with a few titbits for others to give a semblance of open tender.
Curran has been dragged over the coals for a meeting or two with Carol Hirschfeld and yet Joyce was in deals 'off the calendar' worth 'billions' and nothing in the media ( mostly because the main media journalists were 'his chooks' who were regularly fed inside stories- except the likes of Road Oram who were forced out)
Indeed, Dukeofurl. Nor did we (taxpayers) get the return, which of course were privatised.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/102708888/way-to-be-cleared-for-big-electricity-players-to-prey-on-lowincome-households
Don't hold your breath. It doesn't look like much will change out of all this.
Am I the only one who wishes Martyn Bradbury would shut the f*** up about everything 'woke'. He honestly has some serious obsession issues in that regard.
could someone please tell me what 'woke' is/means..?
and as a leftwing vegan – who doesn't use alcohol – but who does smoke pot..
am i automatically one of these 'woke'-people..?
i fear i might be – so need some clarification here..
(i feel a t-shirt coming on – 'am i woke?'..)
Has anyone made the word play linking "woke" with "Ewok"?
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=woke
One NZ synonym may be 'wanker'.
(from the definition)
'The act of being very pretentious about how much you care about a social issue'
so it can be used as an insult/attack weapon by say – unreconstructed flesh-eaters – against – say – militant-vegans..?
so it's a term used by reactionaries..?
'Reactionaries' is the polite term. The more appropriate expression has just one syllable and rhymes with 'mix'.
has bradbury turned the ideological corner – and met his rightwing self coming the other way..?
he really is putting the 'ok' in 'woke'-bashing..
No, Bradbury's always been like this, or at least in the years I've seen him online. It's just another version of his anti-identity politics views. Work culture in NZ needs critiquing but he's not the person to do it because he's not very good at listening and just ends up polarising the left further.
Woke comes out of Black culture in the US, where it has a different meaning and usage.
“I’m a woke bloke woke”
No you're not and he hangs out with some very funny people too.
Just about everything, really.
And haven't we seen similar lines here recently.
https://www.salon.com/2019/08/30/misogyny-meet-hypocrisy-climate-deniers-go-after-aoc-greta-thunberg-with-sexist-attacks/
To Sacha at 5: that comment about "child abuse" towards Thunberg's parents reminds me of a BBC reporter at the Auckland CHOGM conference who asked me why a woman like me ( not defined) was holding an anti-nuke banner. In discussion I told him of young grandson also very perturbed about nuclear testing at that time, whereupon he replied that children shouldn't know about such things!
I suspect he had no idea that the protest was about Mururoa in particular but British and French interest in nukes as well, and was there to report clamour for arriving dignitaries.
'pimps their kid out'. Vile comment. We have had a few slurs here also. Some brains need to go in the wash and be hung to dry in sunlight. A natural disinfectant for some very degraded, besmirched humans.
Hopefully they'll sue.
With this trial of supplying lunches to some test schools, I ask why lunch, would not breakfast have a greater result? As then the students are in a better place for the entire school day not the last couple of hours.
Good point. I assume the theory is they get breakfast at home but might not be given any lunch or lunch money.
I assume it’s harder to organise in the morning.
i thought breakfast would be easier to make available and would also be able to more easily be adapted to cover most if not all dietary and cultural needs and can be provided on site. Lunch time is more compressed and I would imagine require heating of food with pre prepared being needed off site and food would be more difficult to cover varied needs.
Getting kids to school on time and settling them into a routine is not an easy task. Maybe providing breakfast is a good way of achieving that but it will cut into class time. Indeed, it would be better to provide sustenance at the beginning of the day but I think the practicality of that works against it.
Definitely the Kids are much easier to settle down in class if they have had breakfast. I found running them around the field first thing, especially the Boys also helped.
On Spirit of Adventure the kids started with star jumps and swimming around the ship in the morning, followed by a full cooked breakfast. No trouble getting them to pay attention.
There are already breakfast programmes in many schools.
Yes, and in some pre-schools too. They are mostly cereal and milk and the children can often help themselves. No big fuss is made about them, hence many people might not know. It's been hapening for years – at least 10 I would say
Yes, JanM and Sacha.
But clearly, while feeding kids at school/preschool helps somewhat, it hasn't done enough to stop the growing queues at food banks nor the growing demand for hardship grants.
It is not intended to. That takes other actions.
That, evidently, are lacking.
What’s the hold up? Could it be our politicians are paid too much, thus are out of touch?
It requires actions like, actually paying people enough money to live, instead of tax payers subsidizing underpaying employers. But that option doesn't seem to have arrived on Labours radar, and is anathema to National's "socialism for the rich".
Schools I have been in (Secondary sector) recognised that most kids ate most of their lunch at Morning Interval, so lengthened Morning Interval a bit, shifted Lunch back one hour, and had only one period after lunch instead of the old two periods, when difficult classes could be at their most nightmarish.
Because of this, I would seriously hope that these so-called 'lunches' will be given out at Morning Interval.
Lunch time is too late, and would minimise the benefit.
Perhaps schools could be forced to move lunch back where it sensibly belongs.
Suicide rates are 90 per cent higher in areas of high deprivation
http://features.nzherald.co.nz/teen-suicide-an-untold-story/
Hence, when I called out Cinny & Rosemary on their denial of the impact of poverty on the high number of suicides it wasn't without good reason
http://features.nzherald.co.nz/teen-suicide-an-untold-story/
The Morgan Foundation have been researching what works (see below) to ensure lower income families get the chance to thrive.
https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/09-07-2017/we-already-know-how-to-help-prevent-suicide-when-will-we-start-taking-action/
https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/02-03-2017/pennies-from-heaven-why-we-need-to-give-all-parents-cash/
[It is nice that you feel vindicated.
However, IMO you are misinterpreting if not twisting their words and using this to vindicate yourself and/or your judgemental opinion in some way. Get over it! Sensitive topics such as suicide are not for scoring points of any kind.
You stubbornly refuse to listen and taken on board suggestions and advice. You stubbornly refuse to change your style and MO. You can get quite shitty when challenged. You stubbornly refuse to take responsibility for your role in the frequent pile-ons. Your hypercritical negative comments are nothing but your biased opinion and judgement but you don’t acknowledge or accept that.
I am getting fed up with your judgemental criticisms because they do not make for good robust debate. I’m giving you yet another warning to change your ways, because you can make a (highly) positive contribution here on this site even or particularly if it is criticism of the Government, past or present, instead of diverting attention away to yourself. Please take heed or sooner or later I will take away your privilege of commenting on this site irrespective of you being a leftie, which you most likely are; you are not the first leftie to receive a ban – Incognito]
totally support what you are saying about poverty as a cause of depression/suicide..
it does my head in how journalists don't seem to have the nous to ask emoting politicians that question..
it also does my head in how so many of the unblinking/in-lockstep supporters of this gimmint shift uneasily in their seats at this question – knowing their labour gummint (except for sole-parents) has done s.f.a. to address poverty…
which – can only be done – not by more emoting – but by increasing the incomes – by a substantial amount – of those poorest/most likely to kill themselves…
Indeed, phillip.
While the general point may true , comparing raw numbers with high numbers of teens/younger adults may just produce relatively higher numbers than areas with far less of those groups. Guess what demographics have large families ?
Its the equivalent of saying very busy roads have more crashes because they are 'dangerous', when the clue is they have massively higher numbers of cars.
Clearly, you overlooked this: Suicide rates are 90 per cent higher in areas of high deprivation. Thus, we are not only talking about the number of youth suicides.
What does your headline say?
teen suicide an untold story …hmmm what group could that be about. They even say its so high for that group it causes a noticeable bump in stats
Love to see your reference about ALL age groups that invalidates my claim
Yes, that is one headline of the links provided. And more than one link was provided
But the statement clearly states suicide rates are 90 per cent higher in areas of high deprivation.
This comes down to the associated stress that comes with being poor, thus losing hope. And families are made up of more than just children.
Denial much?
In a search to try and make sense of what is happening we look for common denominators. Poverty check. Brown check. Young check.
But none of this is why we take our own lives. As Mike King says "We harm ourselves when our inner critic gets the upper hand."
In search of finding solutions we seek reasons why the problem is occurring.
And one common denominator in this problem is suicide rates are 90 per cent higher in areas (note, areas, not just the far north) of high deprivation.
While I have respect for Mike and know he speaks from experience in this matter, he doesn't speak for everyone. Moreover, the negative impacts of living in poverty helps form and develop ones inner critic. Putting people in that dark space.
See my Moderation note @ 11:22 AM.
I looked up archives for TS wanting to see ratings for this site which I know we have and couldn't strike the right heading. Could someone give me a steer for where to find them please? ( I was looking at Open Parachute and remembered that lprent mentioned that some other meter was being used.)
On how the rhetoric used by conservative apologists mirrors that used by pre-war supporters of the south.
After the El Paso shooting, Ben Shapiro — a popular conservative podcaster — asked Americans to draw a line between the few conservatives who are white supremacists and those who, like him, aren’t. Almost all Americans are “on the same side,” he said, and “we should be mourning together.” In his telling, we aren’t, for “one simple reason: Too many on the political left [are] castigating the character of those who disagree,” lumping conservatives and political nonconformists together with racists and xenophobes.
I grew up in a conservative family. The people I talk to most frequently, the people I call when I need help, are conservative. I’m not inclined to paint conservatives as thoughtless bigots. But a few years ago, listening to the voices and arguments of commentators like Shapiro, I began to feel a very specific deja vu I couldn’t initially identify. It felt as if the arguments I was reading were eerily familiar. I found myself Googling lines from articles, especially when I read the rhetoric of a group of people we could call the “reasonable right.”
[…]
So it felt frustrating: When I read Weiss, when I listened to Shapiro, when I watched Peterson or read the supposedly heterodox online magazine Quillette, what was I reminded of?
My childhood home is just a half-hour drive from the Manassas battlefield in Virginia, and I grew up intensely fascinated by the Civil War. I loved perusing soldiers’ diaries. During my senior year in college, I studied almost nothing but Abraham Lincoln’s speeches. While I wrote my thesis on a key Lincoln address, Civil War rhetoric was almost all I read: not just that of the 16th president but also that of his adversaries.
Thinking back on those debates, I finally figured it out. The reasonable right’s rhetoric is exactly the same as the antebellum rhetoric I’d read so much of. The same exact words. The same exact arguments. Rhetoric, to be precise, in support of the slave-owning South.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/08/29/conservatives-say-weve-abandoned-reason-civility-old-south-said-that-too/
http://archive.li/HYSqX
That was a very good read.
arthur grimes is 'owned' on national radio…
(in fact – he was monstered – came across as irrational/illogical/gdp-doctrinaire..
the professor has no clothes..)
Brexit – good attempt to summarise the current running by the Guardian's Isabel Hardman.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/31/brexit-weirdest-week-four-scenarios
and Aljazeera –
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/08/brexit-thousands-protest-johnson-move-suspend-parliament-190831132616559.html
A petition calling on the government not to suspend Parliament has gained more than one million signatures, while more than 50 MPs from the main parties have also pledged to set up an alternative House of Commons if the suspension goes forward. …
In London, thousands of angry protesters on Saturday rallied outside Downing Street, the official residence of the prime minister, to oppose the controversial move scheduled for early September….
More than 80 protests across the UK on Saturday were organised by the anti-Brexit campaign group Another Europe is Possible and were led by Momentum – a left-wing caucus within the opposition Labour Party. The organisers named the protests "Stop the Coup" in reference to Johnson's plans.
The gathering in London brought together people from a range of backgrounds.
Paddy Gemmell, 15, a student from London, said the suspension of Parliament is "undemocratic".
"Since people voted for Brexit many have begun to understand what that actually means and have changed their minds – their voices should be heard," he said.
"Voices should be heard" – which is code for doing the EUs bidding when any referendum vote goes against them , invalidate that vote by any means.
Ask Norwegians how their vote against Joining the EU went.
"Paddy Gemmell, 15, a student…" , is that really the voice of the people ?
It was pretty much invalidated by the lies told beforehand dookydooky.
Lies were told before the vote by the Remainers you only read the Guardian who are hyper partisan on remain at all costs so they ignore all the nonsense they told before the referendum vote. It was so bad they even had a code name for it Project Fear
"In May 2016, then-chancellor George Osborne warned leaving the EU could cause a drop in house prices of 18% – it didn’t materialise and 11 months later, Nigel Farage was crowing as prices continued to rise."
George Osborne, the then Chancellor, said in a BBC Radio 4 interview that leaving the European Union would cause "financial instability" and leave "no economic plan," which would need an immediate response from the government. "There would have to be increases in tax and cuts in public spending to fill the black hole," he said.
Good to see the backlash against this odious decision to auction off this significant Māori cloak by the english. This is not the 1840s anymore… This taonga needs to be sent back to the iwi in NZ where it belongs free of charge instead of living in a cupboard.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2019/08/m-ori-cloak-auction-cancelled-after-kiwis-threaten-owners-with-abuse.html
And a hearty well done to the gum-sucking morons who thought vile abuse and threats would somehow see a taonga returned.
FFS.
It did stop the auction. Not a good social dynamic that, but I doubt that the cloak was going to be returned to Iwi.
Indeed vile abuse and threats are not the best way to negotiate but I'd say that since Maori tried negotiating respectfully with English settlers 200 years ago and were treated to vile abuse, their descendants feel no obligation now to conduct themselves with much decorum towards these English.
Hurt people hurt. For generations.
This cloak meant nothing to these people for a hundred years and now that it's been valued in monetary terms they no longer care to return it to Ngāti Maniapoto. It means money to them, nothing else.
Hurt people hurt.
The Cancer Society have won the media furore race.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/397898/government-to-establish-a-cancer-control-agency-and-give-pharmac-an-extra-60m
What about others like those with endemitriosis? – just affects women. Or Chronic Fatigue Syndrome – they're too tired to get up and do something for themselves, No cancer is the in-disease at the present.
It was labour party election policy to establish a new 'agency' Look it up
Maybe cancer is the 'in disease' because it has in some instances high death rates compared to your ridiculous 'chronic fatigue syndrome' ( Is there even a established treatment or new medication that can be funded – didnt think so)
Those of us who have cancers would prefer it not to be the in-disease 🙂
I have a resection due in ten days, so I have a stake in the matter. My fourth diagnosis so far. It does have an emotional component for many people and I can see that others with life threatening and serious diseases would feel the same about their particular affliction.
Money does help. Last night I attended a support group meeting of fellow sufferers and partners. One man has a three monthly drug to take. He saw the price tag once. $1003 for one dose. Effective though. A good man and husband is kept alive and functioning by the state's expenditure.
Is it possible that someone who has had cancer can understand that others are aching for assistance, who are not faced with a terminal disease. Such a lot of cancer sufferers wish to have a longer life without consideration of the cost. They don't want to die, they don't want to pay out their own money to buy the expensive nostrums, and they don't care that the country already is not providing basic services for young needy people.
Perhaps we should have a voucher system, a lifetime allowance with a few allowances for rare cases. And age needs to become of importance. Once you are over 70? If not then, what would be reasonable, 75, 80? And then palliative care only.
Thanks for the response, greywarshark. This is a difficult issue, not because I have again an operable cancer, but because it gets into issues such as you have raised about age, whether we should countenance triage with age as a consideration, use of available resources with a voucher system to restrict overuse of resources, and more assistance to people with non-terminal but needed services.
Firstly, I reject the ageism. I am about to turn 70 but a form of selectivity based on age is a very dangerous notion considering what else may be used as a criterion like mental health, cretinism, genetic disorders, putative contributions to society, membership of social outgroups based on ethnicity, lifestyles, religion, immigration status. You see where this can lead?
I also reject your assertion that older people don't care about provision of services to needy young people. That is also ageist, wrong and unworthy.
I reject your assertion that they don't want to pay out of their own money for what you dismiss as 'nostrums', which is defined as "a medicine prepared by an unqualified person, especially one that is not considered effective."
greywarshark, your style of argument is very difficult to wish to continue with. I thank you for your response but earnestly ask that you full consider how you argue and what you are actually espousing.
I understand that you are arguing for a group either young or missing out in your view on adequate services and treatment. If you have someone in that situation, then I feel for you.
There are other answers than dumping on other groups.
A huge amount of what we argue about concerns allocation of resources.
The resources are there. Do we want to do this or do that? Defence or health? Bailouts for failed businesses or education? Tax breaks or prison reform? Support for films, world rugby and yachting cups or mental health?
Maybe there is still not enough money. And consider that old folk have children and grandchildren that they wish the best for. And vice versa. I am unhappy to see this discussion descend into an "us versus them" scenario.
Better that we promote our causes, acknowledge the shortfalls and discuss how we best justly allocate our resources based on reason, actual need and fairness.
Good luck with everything mac1.
@ g-shark..
'and they don't care that the country already is not providing basic services for young needy people. '
what a vile unfounded accusation/generalisation…
sit down – why don't you..
There'll always be plenty of waddabouts graysie.
Are we getting value for money out of our parliamentarians (from all parties)?
Or do we pay them too much?
The PM currently gets about nine times the average wage. While others receive less, they still receive more than the average worker.
And considering the poor state of the nation (and not just of late) is paying them so much really attracting quality representation?
Moreover, is paying them so much (putting them in the top one per cent of income earners) a problem (as in, with high incomes as such, so many of them are now out of touch with your average voter) thus continually fail to improve life for the majority?
Is it long past time we reset (lower) the incomes of our MPs?
The Chairman, I'll tell you just one story I know to be true. A former MP had two terms in a marginal seat. The night he lost the seat someone burned down the barn on a little farmlet he had. No employer would give this former MP a job. He had to subsist on his farmlet. He was generous with his own money whilst an MP. I know.
There are risks involved in being an MP. It's a hard life. A British MP was murdered, remember.
Tne last point I make is one I made to Geoffrey Palmer many years ago. We pay our MPs, judges etc well to lessen the threat of corruption and bribery. It is one of the fair prices of democracy.
So we are paying them exorbitant amounts of danger money? When others (such as police officers) in dangerous jobs aren't paid nowhere near as much.
As for averting the potential for corruption, some would argue that's largely a fail. Moreover, we can and should better police that.
[Attributing words, feelings, emotions, beliefs, or motives to other commenters does not make for a constructive debate. If you feel the need to make assumptions, you must check these before you take them as a given. Please pay close attention to mac1’s first sentence in his response @ 14.1.1.1 to you – Incognito]
I think you have taken one part of what I said, exaggerated it hugely, and attributed to me beliefs that I do not have.
To respond to your point re corruption, yes we need to have and I believe do have sufficient safeguards regarding police and the judiciary.
But, paying well enough that there is no temptation to augment the income with a little under-counter extra is a good strategy. Better than paying very good salaries to incorrupt guardians to oversee our guardian police, judiciary and MPs because if the guardians of the guardians are corruptible through insufficient financial independence, then we're back worse than when we started. Whew!
"Quis custodiet custodes ipsos?"
The above quote were your words.
Therefore, I asked (not exaggerated it hugely and attributed to your beliefs) if we are paying them exorbitant amounts of danger money?
Which you have yet to clarify.
If our policing of this was/is fully robust we wouldn't require this strategy.
Moreover, regardless how much we pay our MP's they could still be open to corruption as those (affluent multinational corporations for argument sake) that wanted to bribe them would merely offer them more to sway them.
Therefore, it really falls down to how well this type of corruption is policed.
I don't think the salaries are particularly exhorbitant. It's an important job with significant responsibilities, and for every one who walks into a highly paid lobbying or directorship job related to their political life, there are several who simply go back to their homes and former careers.
And yes, there is a reputational (and sometimes physical) risk associated with the job.
Should they be paid more than cops or whatever? I think a better equivalence would be between politicians and upper management. 120 people in charge of a $300 billion, 4.7million person organisation? From that perspective, they're cheap.
In comparison to the average worker, it's exorbitant.
In comparison to a CEO, not so much.
I'm not denying there is a risk to the job. But there are risks with many jobs that don't reward nowhere as much.
And just because they oversee a lot (money/population) doesn't mean they are doing a good job of it, thus they should be rewarded on performance on top of a far lower base salary, which takes into account how well those on the bottom are impacted from their decisions/oversight.
I prefer pay-based performance; employer unions generally aren't too keen on performance-based pay.
Re-election is their reward.
Let me put it another way: someone works 40hr/wk for $50k. Would you expect them to throw their hat in the ring, quit that permanent job for maybe three years on the same rate, mostly working longer hours based in another town, and bunging you in the public eye?
They are still paid rather well (albeit less) if they aren't re-elected.
On performance based pay they still have the opportunity to do a good job and be better compensated. Giving them the incentive to do better.
It's performance-based job retention. Judged by their employers, the electorate.
"Performance-based pay" is a stupid idea for anything that doesn't have clearly quantifiable benchmarks with simple inputs that are largely in the control of the worker. But it sounds good when applied to teachers and politicians, even if the people calling for it have no idea about how to implement it fairly both for the employee and the people the employee is supposed to serve.
Reading and thinking over the thread, I'm just getting fucked off. If we pay MPs fuckall, then only the rich can afford to be MPs. If we pay them an average wage, then no average worker would risk their livelihood or the family's income for precarious employment that has no financial advantage.
Not that you've stated how performance would be judged (or by whom), or the vague ballpark of payscales you'd like to see for politicians.
You're just, yet again, spouting right wing platitudes that serve only to make the rich more powerful and the poor more easy to get removed from the political system.
I’m off to bed.
Unfortunately, the electorate (their employers) don't currently set or have any input on their salaries. Nor can the public fully dismiss them. Whether or not they are re-elected they are still employed in opposition. Unless of course they don't make that 5% threshold. Therefore, it's not really (albeit to a very limited extent) performance-based job retention.
I agree, clearly quantifiable benchmarks are vital in performance base pay. Hence, it's not suited to all work places/professions. However, I think we could make it work for politicians.
I disagree that only the rich would be able to afford to be an MP. As the base rate would be reasonable.
Moreover, it’s a privilege to serve the people. We should be seeking those that are not only capable but have a genuine passion and desire for it. Not those only seeking a huge salary. Additionally, there is little risk. The average wage is alright (albeit they would be getting above that) and the job is fairly secure. Even in opposition, one would be paid. On top of that, some like to travel and the down times (holidays/breaks) are rather generous. Making up for time away from home. And their pension scheme is good. It may not suit all, but not all are suited to every job. So I don't see any justification for your anger.
That would be up for public debate, after all, we are their employers.
How? Why do you think that? Every quanta for a politician I can think of is either easily rortable or doesn't reflect quality of performance.
And the public does get to dismiss them every three years.
Reasonable for a permanent average job. Not for someone to risk their family's livelihood on by quitting steady, permanent employment. That's why it would be a folly for the rich, not a realistic proposition for the average person.
I’m angry because I think you should know this, whether you are genuinely left wing or a tory in disguise.
Currently, once one becomes an MP they become one of the elite (the rich) hence part of the problem we need to solve.
Not if they merely end up in opposition, thus still on the payroll.
Glad you asked. By further empowering voters.
Being an MP is a extremely unique occupation. As in, your employer is all of us.
Therefore, I suggest along with the public having input on their base rate, we should also be given the opportunity to determine their performance rate. This could be done every three years at election.
The public could/should be allowed to have input in setting a performance scale range and decide on how they individually feel the Government/MP's have performed. Giving the Government/MP's a further incentive to better work for the majority.
That doesn't address the point I raised.
Which they can only do if they maintain the support of their electorate or their party. Otherwise, they're out.
🙄
How? You're not actually stating a position.
That doesn't address my point.
In today's gig economy, not many are lucky enough to have a permanent secure job. Moreover, if one enters parliament via Labour or National their employment is largely secure by either being in Government or in opposition, thus on the public payroll.
If MP's need lots of money to refrain from unethical or corrupt behavior, then I think they are not the sort of people we need in Parliament.
Obviously, having some of the highest MP salaries in the Western world, has failed in this regard. With many instances of unethical and dis honest behavior.
Salaries do make it affordable for normal people to be in Parliament. Before MP 's were paid, Parliament was almost exclusively idle absentee landowners.
I don't see why they should be paid more than a school senior teacher, however.
Pensions commensurate with those paid to military personnel would be more appropriate than the current fortune.
The other problem is the make up of Parliament. A distinct lack of tradespeople for one. And way to many lawyers and failed businessmen.
Indeed, KJT.
Yes, we do lack diversity in the make up of our parliament in that regard.
See my Moderation note @ 4:16 PM.
In the grand scheme of things, the money is a drop in the ocean. Many public servants are paid more.
The role needs to be something capable people aspire to. Spending weeks away from home and pulling a living wage would result in representation that would have you posting non-stop.
Yet, considering the poor state of the nation (and not just of late) are we really attracting capable people? I think not.
I’m not suggesting we lower their wage to a mere living wage, but to a more reasonable amount.
As for many public servants being paid more, it's long past time we reset (lowered) their income too.
"Poor state of the nation."
Chairman, I think if you lived in The Garden of Eden you'd spend your time lodging complaints. "Dear God, I saw a weed amongst the Lavender yesterday."
I'm sorry you find living in New Zealand such a grind. I don't suppose it's going to make you feel much better but I love it.
Satisfaction, can't get no.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jLIRJwfZhg
Marvin the robot is my favourite character in Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide. He has a delightful Eeyore persona. "Life, don't talk to me about life."
Yeah, there's a bit of Chairman in Marvin.
Surely you don't want to be perceived as a doomster Chairman? Optimism is sexy.
Reality is priceless
Your reality is a steaming pile of poo.
I'll run with my reality thanks.
You are free to run with whatever you like.
However, it's doesn't change the reality of the stats – i.e. the rich are getting richer as more people are queuing for food and hardship grants, while a growing number are sleeping rough.
Ask them if they think politicians are value for money and working hard for them.
The mildly rich are 1% of us Chairman. 99 in every 100 people are you and me.
A rich person trading their Ferrari in on a Corolla and building a state house with the change will not shorten the list for emergency housing.
How soon do you think we would see a marked improvement in our governance after we put MPs on $65k pa?
If I started sending you $300 a week would you stop moaning?
If they all had to live on the same incomes of the majority, I suspect policy improvements would come about rather quickly.
@ d mac…
are you dismissing the link between poverty/suicide..?
and that this govt has not done very much about – poverty..?
Yes. I'm dismissing the suicide/poverty line.
It's underwritten by "If you don't want me to top myself, give me money."
I think a better approach is…"Of course you have value and can make as much money as your imagination will allow you to. Come with me and I'll show you how."
As Mike King says, it's about our inner critics. We all have them, it's about where we're at with our inner critics. We need to learn to be there for those that are carrying obese inner critics. Poor, rich, brown, white, whatever.
'Yes. I'm dismissing the suicide/poverty line'
wow..!
you are able to stare down the stats showing the much much higher rates of suicide amongst the poor..?
of not for that reason..why..?
and..have you ever been poor/struggled..?
and given your age/generation/attitude..i doubt it…
'cos if you had you would know what that stain is like…
and the miseries/despair it brings..
and would not be so callous – to boot..
Well spotted, David Mac. I suspect that for many years The Chairman's diodes have been aching all down his Left side.
Pile on in, In Vino.
Bet you can’t wait for my next post (political donations) and my solution. Keep tuned in for that one. Or as they say, keep it locked
I expect you will be piling on in on that one too. As the mob runs wild.
Money For Nothing
The discussion isn't about me. Try addressing the points I made.
Not all are doing badly, The rich are getting richer.
And some may argue (which I am) that this comes down to (in part) because of policy made by politicians that are out of touch with the needs of the majority.
Additionally, re mac1's claim re threats being made on politicians, perhaps they wouldn't be threaten as much if they better represented the majority and not the elite (like them) getting richer .
I think The Chairman's problems with NZ would be all fixed if the government gave him an extra $1000 a week. I think it's more about you than you acknowledge.
The government is never going to make anyone well off Chairman. Those that want to be comfortable will need to make their own arrangements.
Again, it's not about me. Try again.
Well, no CGT sure helps property flippers build their wealth. And don't they (a number of politicians) along with their high incomes have property investment?
Self serving much?
Geez, you seem very concerned about other peoples' money. How much have you got?
It sort of is about you. It's you that is perpetually disgruntled. I'm cranking snapper and singing 3 chord anthems at the pub.
I'm quick to poke finger at a politician in here, but life in NZ? I don't slag NZ, I love living in New Zealand.
You seem to be having a crappy time of it Chair. You care too much to be a mere observer. I fear the shortcomings you highlight are more to do with your poison ivy coloured glasses than the targets you're quick to zero in on.
But hey, this is the sort of conversation we should have mano on mano. You need a reboot from someone you love….Unless you aspire to be known as the perpetually negative person that is an expert at finding fault and useless at identifying solutions….nobody wants to be that guy.
Life in NZ doesn't suck any where near as much as you would have us believe.
"..Life in NZ doesn't suck any where near as much as you would have us believe.'..
maybe not for you..
but for many it is..
It's less than some of the useless pricks they appoint cherry.
That needs addressing to, Gabby.
🙄
https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/museums/what-happened-when-trump-visited-the-african-american-history-museum-according-to-its-former-director/2019/08/30/5471494e-cb5a-11e9-a1fe-ca46e8d573c0_story.html?noredirect=on
Donald has come so far, a few years ago he would of said "They love me in Dutchland."
He probably did say that …these sorts of things are 'often tidied' up in print.
If it weren't so serious, it would be a riot having a cartoon character in the big chair at the White House….Foghorn Leghorn?
Sure, how many times has Trump visited the Netherlands?
"A plant-based diet with less meat and dairy could transform the country's health while also slashing emissions, MPs have been told.
OraTaio: NZ Climate and Health Council co-convenor Dr Alexandra Macmillan said if New Zealand reduced emissions from farming and dairy it would also boost the health of the population.
"New Zealand's diet at the moment is really unhealthy, it's causing a huge amount of disease," she said. "
https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/115370156/plant-based-diet-could-cut-disease-hospital-costs-and-emissions-nz-health-sector-says
(ahem..!..)
Indeed!
i thought shorthand would suffice..
This one (track below) goes out to all those that want to rain down on me. I've got my waterproof coat
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Plush-Eeyore-Coat-Yellow-Backpack-Disneyland-Horse-Donkey-Zebra-Cla/362730368862?hash=item54746a2f5e:g:PbEAAOSwP5JdEIfr
It must smell of piss on the inside.
Latest on Brexit. EU sets a line in rock.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49540681
Brexit: Michel Barnier [EU lead negotiator] rejects demands for backstop to be axed
and
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-war-erupts-tory-mps-19118531
Brexit war erupts as Tory MPs face down Boris Johnson's threat to cast them out.
Boris Johnson could withdraw the whip from Tory MPs who vote to block no-deal Brexit. But today the rebels faced him down – in a move that risks a historic split in the Conservative Party and the country…
MPs will table a law on Tuesday to stop Boris Johnson crashing the UK out of the EU on October 31 without a deal.
The Prime Minister, who has a majority of one, faces defeat if the MPs can pass the law in the tiny period of time before he suspends Parliament for five weeks, from around September 12….
A Government spokesperson said: “All options for party management are under consideration.”
The warning is an echo of David Cameron’s tweet four years ago that the country faced “a simple and inescapable choice – stability and strong Government with me, or chaos with Ed Miliband.”
A Sky News correspondent believes if the British opposition Labour Party doesn't appoint a new leader, a no deal brexit is on the cards
© 2019 Newstalk ZB, NZCity
Who the f**k is Enda Brady anyway.
"Appoint" a new leader- which planet is she on..Corbyn was elected by the membership.
I believe she is a he 😉
A big endian ,not a little endian.?
What do I know?
bastards
Voice from shadowy figure in the distance – 'Take care. You are making me angry. We have ways of dealing with outrageous dissent.'