Open mike 01/09/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 1st, 2021 - 168 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

168 comments on “Open mike 01/09/2021 ”

  1. bwaghorn 1

    The two faced hag collins just blamed Ardern for parliament sitting yesterday, reckoned its because Ardern didnt use her power to suspend parliament till level 3!!

    Unfuckingbelievable,

    On the am show.

    • Bearded Git 1.1

      Collins is doing just fine for the Labour/Greens/MP. With her still there the next election will be a doddle.

    • Andre 1.2

      two faced hag

      Careful now, wags. Puckish Rogue gets let out of his cage next month and he'll want revenge on all those that have been sacrilegious to his chosen one.

      • weka 1.2.1

        Poor PR. Things have changed so much since he was cast out. He must be feeling so let down by JC.

        • Anne 1.2.1.1

          Missed PR.

          • weka 1.2.1.1.1

            not too long now.

          • Anker 1.2.1.1.2

            I miss P R too!

            I am absolutley no fan of Judith C, but I watched a tiny bit of the interview and I seriously wonder if she might need some help…….I geniunely do.

            • mary_a 1.2.1.1.2.1

              Anker I agree with you. Collins seemed to display some underlying anger issues this morning. She is becoming disturbingly edgy. Despite the nonsensical, aggressive responses from Collins, Indira Stewart did a great job.

            • bwaghorn 1.2.1.1.2.2

              Need help??

              collins is happy being a nasty piece of work, never forget dirty politics, and paying back double.

    • Gabby 1.3

      And what did Ryan Bridge have to say about that?

      • bwaghorn 1.3.1

        Still on the fence about Bridge, he called out richardson for being angry winger ho has it made the other day .

        I'm going to be generous and say hes giving collins enough rope.

    • Treetop 1.4

      And in Wellington today it is level 3. What a difference a day makes. I will tune in again today to question time in parliament.

  2. Red Blooded One 2

    What an hilarious interview on TVNZ Breakfast (sorry don't know how to link) Indira wasn't taking any of Karen Collins's BS and the true angry, self serving and deranged Leader of the National Party came shining through. You just know each time she smiles another woodland animal dies.

  3. Ad 3

    Chris Hedges has a good old fashioned rage against the United States in its withdrawal from Afghanistan:

    https://www.salon.com/2021/08/31/the-graveyard-of-empires-strikes-back-but-the-rage-of-a-dying-power-can-be-dreadful/

    I particularly liked the quotes from the Carter era.

    • RedLogix 3.1

      Now if only Hedges could extricate himself from the 80's.

      Empire is driven by one underlying consideration – the necessity to control sunshine and resources. The US was never short of these things, and it's military projection was much less about the control of territory, but the control of the political agenda during the Cold War. Well that purpose is long over and they never replaced it with anything. An insular and inward looking US public have elected one President after another who promised the least in terms of engagement with the wider world. Biden's precipitate and bungled exit from Afghanistan being merely the most recent nadir in this process.

      Hedges article is of course deeply selective in his targets – he omits the immense expansion of trade and human welfare that is also the direct result of this same post-WW2 period US led period of relative security and stability. His inability to tear himself away from gloating over the costs that were paid for this has a direct parallel with those fools who would 'defund the police' because every now and then they shoot someone in egregious circumstances.

      Just to be very clear on this – my argument has never been that the US were any good at being 'world policeman', but even their incompetent efforts at the task have on the whole delivered far more benefit than cost. On this basis my next proposition is – if the principle of global security is so beneficial even on such a flawed basis – what would it take to do the job properly?

      • Gabby 3.1.1

        You know that 'defunding the police' was about removing from them jobs for which they were demonstrably unsuited, eg mental healthcare by firearm, and paying better people to do those things?

        • KJT 3.1.1.1

          Redlogix so reliably repeats the US "exceptionalist," line these days.

          You wonder if his paycheck comes from the CIA?

          • Incognito 3.1.1.1.1

            Please, don’t accuse another Author and Moderator of this site of being a paid tool of anybody or anything. I’ve handed out long bans for this kind of shit and I don’t make exceptions. It doesn’t make for a strong debating point unless the identity of the commenter is publically known and they are publically known to be on a pay-list and even then it is almost always (!) just taking pot-shots at the person and not addressing the gist of their comment.

            • weka 3.1.1.1.1.1

              While it is possible to ban an author from commenting, it's rare and not over something like this. It also creates problems for them putting up posts and being able to comment on their own posts.

              My view is that authors get to say what they like (within reason), but I agree that it would be good if KJT could dial back the ad hom stuff. Probably RL too (haven't been following closely, but there's obvious aggro between the two of them).

              • Incognito

                It sets a bad example that others who are not Authors are likely to follow, as does happen here and as such, it spoils the vibe and kills constructive debate.

                It was a plea and a general warning to all, not a Moderation note. If necessary, we can take this to the back-end, yes? I might just get something off my chest there, anyway.

                • weka

                  yes, I think back end is a good idea 👍

                • RedLogix

                  I chose to ignore this comment because I could not see anything constructive coming from responding to it.

                  It's one of those silly things we all say when commenting in the heat of the moment.

        • RedLogix 3.1.1.2

          And very quickly poor communities at the pointy end of this demand to 'defund the police' realised that the very real reduction in security it entailed came at a cost to them.

          By all means train and manage the police better to weed out those incapable of doing the job properly. and provide for far better mental health care. But it fairly quickly became obvious these good intentions were being used by radicals as a fig-leaf to dismantle policing altogether.

          And while you and I can both imagine an ideal world of perfect people in which security is not required, absent that utopia ordinary people, usually the most vulnerable, are those who depend on the police most of all.

          And by extension the same argument applies to nations.

          • Richard 3.1.1.2.1

            Well said.

            Several unpleasant direct interactions with police in my youth in both NZ and AUS, gave me a very dim view of them to say the least. That doesn't change the fact that society needs and always will need them.

            Calls for defunding are 'baby with the bathwater'. Select your police men/women better. Train and support them better. Hell, even pay them better.

            IMHO – Defunding arguments are technically similar to those used by the right to justify the offloading of state assets. The argument went that these publicly owned companies were run badly (often true). This morphed into public ownership causes mismanagement (not true), therefore they must be sold.

            Agree also with the nation level angle. A void will always be filled by one of the global swinging dicks.

          • Gabby 3.1.1.2.2

            Have you managed to miss the point AGAIN? There are jobs the police should not be doing, and no amount of 'weeding out' will change that. It's almost as if you counter an argument by pretending it's something else. I'm sure that's not the case though.

        • I Feel Love 3.1.1.3

          He knows, he's been told, willful ignorance.

      • Ad 3.1.2

        Just imagine if Hedges' turned his eyes to Saudi Arabia.

        • Adrian Thornton 3.1.2.1

          The Saudi royal family survives only because of their fealty to the USA and western interests, so why would he bother?

          • Ad 3.1.2.1.1

            Because it's time to stop analysing easy targets.

            • Morrissey 3.1.2.1.1.1

              The Saudi royal family is not an "easy target", going by what happened to Jamal Khashoggi.

              • Ad

                Obviously.

                That's why it's so much easier for Hedges' to take yet another hit at the United States, rather than do hard work.

                Compared to any other major power the United States has an exceedingly open society and a heavily analysed military making it comparatively easy to examine the United States forever … which they obviously do … while criminal states in much more controlled societies just keep expanding underneath much scrutiny.

                Check out Al Jazeera's critical stories of itself or its neighbours. Not.

                The World Press Freedom Index shows which states tolerate any public dissent at all let alone serious book-length scrutiny.

                https://rsf.org/en/ranking

                Of those who are least free, China, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Vietnam have massive militaries and will hunt any reporter down to death no problem.

                • Andre

                  Writing actual investigative journalism on nasty non-US states probably doesn't garner anywhere near as many lucrative clicks from convergence moonbats with a very blinkered worldview that just want the same old recycled polemic that strokes their confirmation bias.

                  More work, less reward, why bother?

                  • Ad

                    A fair point for the selfish, but not much use for a rapidly darkening world in which the last proponents of an open society have zero supporters on either the left or the right.

      • Adrian Thornton 3.1.3

        @RedLogix
        "my argument has never been that the US were any good at being 'world policeman', but even their incompetent efforts at the task have on the whole delivered far more benefit than cost"…..

        I wonder how many times throughout the last 250 years a line just like that has been used to justify all the abuses of power, misery, death and suffering imposed by the unbridled greed, corruption and ego in the name of white western imperialism?….

        But then if history has taught us nothing else about man, it has taught us that powerful men and nations will find the most creative, often outrageous cover and along with their willing enablers, use them to justify any and all acts of hubris, atrocity, villainy conducted in the name of their project…..which is why the saying (and title of a classic Killdozer LP)…’Intellectuals Are the Shoeshine Boys of the Ruling Elite ‘is as much a fact today as it has been throughout history, as they have always been one of the powers greatest enablers.

        • RedLogix 3.1.3.1

          You demand the world should be full of perfect people like noble rescuers such as yourself, act outraged when it isn't, and turn me into the evil persecutor. Thus setting up a distracting drama and totally failing to address the actual comment.

          It's a childish game,

          • Adrian Thornton 3.1.3.1.1

            @RedLogix
            No, what is childish is your unwavering, dear I say it, fundementalist adherence to defending a pernicious regime that has inflicted pain and misery around the world to millions of humans…but because it isn’t in your backyard you tell us it is all but benign (the world's police force!)…a regime I will remind you, that has along with the UK been the primary reason why the gift of free energy has been completely thrown away, and they fucked the planet for future generations while they were at it, in 150 short years…don’t you get it Red Logix? The ideology you defend has blown it, completely and utterly….for all of us, and more importantly all our future generations ..so no, it is you who needs to grow up, grow some balls and take a look in the mirror.

          • Tiger Mountain 3.1.3.1.2

            Even just one of US Imperialism’s very long list of unwarranted, illegal and unwanted (apart from the applicable ruling classes and toadies) interventions in other nations, is enough reason to put them in the naughty corner forever.

            Lets take Chile in 1973…the ‘Chicago Boys’ dream, and in retrospect a demo version of neo liberalism to the extreme. A CIA assisted violent overthrow of an elected social democratic Govt. Horrific. No excuse. All boats were not floated.
            Pinochet divided the long narrow country into 15 “economic zones”, and tortured and murdered thousands of decent people. I worked with the NZ Chilean exile community in 70s and had first hand accounts.

            Is Kissinger too old to be waterboarded? nah…such crims should be pursued till the end.

            • RedLogix 3.1.3.1.2.1

              Why is it that it's only ever the 'crimes' of US that concern you?

              In 1973 the Cold War was still in full swing. You can only be incredibly grateful it remained 'cold' and never escalated to a direct confrontation with the Soviets. Yet on the peripheries it was as intense and brutal as any war.

              The main answer I can think of to my rhetorical question above is that closet marxists such as yourself still haven't gotten over the fact that the US won.

              • Tiger Mountain

                The USA has not “won” a war since 1945! And it was a justifiable anti fascist war–now neo fascists walk the streets of America and stormed the Capitol on January 6. How the mighty have fallen.

                US Imperialism and the US arms industry get involved in asymmetrical contests and end up getting their arse kicked again and again.

                • Tony Veitch (not etc.)

                  Wrong, Tiger. I have it on pretty reliable (American) authority, that they 'won' the war against Grenada in 1983.

                  • Tiger Mountain

                    Interesting you mention Grenada, I just looked it up yesterday for some reason and it all came back–New Jewel movement factions, Cuban construction workers fighting US marines on beaches–what a debacle.

              • Subliminal

                Except that as we now see, the US hasn't "won" and as with the horrendous waste of time, effort, human life, environmental and social destruction in Afghanistan, all US interventions can now be truly seen as waste and a brake on human and environmental growth and potential. How can any sane person when confronted by the climate disaster that is now in front us talk up the type of US blindness of rape and pillage that produced this mess? Driven only by the profit on the bottom line or gdp? Well, now, if there is still time we may get a chance to see how much faster and equitably human potential can be delivered when the god given right to hoard multiple billions of capital for personal use is removed and returned to the productive base. This is the model that China offers. We can try it with NZ characteristics. The wonder is that their is still a world after being subjected to US imperial greed. Thankyou Joe Biden for admitting defeat and giving us some extra time to find a new direction.

      • Stuart Munro 3.1.4

        I have noticed a significant effort among trumpetistas to lay blame for the Afghan fiasco on Biden – as if the fellow left to wind up a failed invasion can bear more responsibility than the clown who started a war with no exit strategy – W for worthless Bush. It was always going to end like this.

        I guess they figure that, absent Biden, der schlumpenfurher is a shoe-in.

        I don't know who the best candidate for US president might be, but Trump is almost certainly the worst one.

    • Adrian Thornton 3.2

      Thanks Ad.. you have to admire Hedges, immovable on his principles and fearless in his critiques of the powerful…which is why he is no longer New York Times Middle East Bureau Chief I guess.

      • Andre 3.2.1

        Huh, is that why?

        I had always been under the impression one of the major reasons he was no longer Middle East Bureau chief for the Times was that he failed to apply the simplest journalistic skepticism and fact checking when he passed on the Iraq WMD lies from the likes of Chalabi. Thereby helping the Shrub administration manufacture consent for the 2003 Iraq war under false pretences.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Hedges

        Not to mention his long term intimate relationship with plagiarism.

        https://newrepublic.com/article/118114/chris-hedges-pulitzer-winner-lefty-hero-plagiarist

        Learn something every day.

        • Morrissey 3.2.1.1

          So Hedges was a collaborator with the Bush regime, was he? That's almost as funny as your Russiagate posts over the last four years.

          • Andre 3.2.1.1.1

            "Collaborator" is your word, not mine, and it's probably a bit harsh.

            But Hedges was one of the few people actually in a position to have made a difference, had he applied even a modicum of skepticism and critical thinking and fact-checking. But he didn't. Not even a smidgen of those basic journalistic skills.

            You'd think in the interim he might have recognised his failings and made an effort to sharpen his independent and critical thinking skills. But nah, it seems he's found it much easier to grift a living by continually recycling the same slightly reworked tired rants at the same tired uncritical audience that craves familiar repetition above all.

  4. KJT 4

    Deaths In Other Nations Since WW II Due To Us Interventions By James A. Lucas (countercurrents.org)

    "The overall conclusion reached is that the United States most likely has been responsible since WWII for the deaths of between 20 and 30 million people in wars and conflicts scattered over the world".

    A pretty Good attempt at beating the Nazi’s record.

    Before we even get into the current deaths due to US saunctions, blockades and bombings, happening right now,

    “Benefits were more than costs”.
    Bullshit.

    • RedLogix 4.1

      You are so predictable. You keep repeating the same idiotically selective claims over and over.

      The irrefutable data shows that in the period since the end of WW2 due to an immense expansion of trade – only made possible because the US created and paid for the security and commercial infrastructure that enabled it – human populations have increased, life expectancy has lengthened and the quality of life for billions has expanded dramatically. Before WW2 most of the human race lived in absolute poverty – now its around 15% or less. Erasing that benefit to literally billions of the poorest people in the world as "bullshit" betrays your professed claim to care for them as very hollow indeed.

      • KJT 4.1.1

        Easy to predict the long winded tirade of US exceptionalist BS from you.

        At least you made it a bit shorter this time

      • Ad 4.1.2

        At some point someone will run the alternative history of Europe and the developed world post WW2 as if the US hadn't stepped in.

        • RedLogix 4.1.2.1

          If the US decides that it really doesn't care about the expansion of totalitarian regimes outside of the Western Hemisphere – and this is the direction it's heading in – then expect this experiment to get a run this decade.

          • Adrian Thornton 4.1.2.1.1

            "If the US decides that it really doesn't care about the expansion of totalitarian regimes outside of the Western Hemisphere "

            Really, that is a bit childish….

            List of authoritarian regimes supported by the United States
            https://en.everybodywiki.com/List_of_authoritarian_regimes_supported_by_the_United_States

            America’s 25 Most Awkward Allies
            https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/02/americas-most-awkward-allies-103889/

            etc etc…got to go to work now…but you know as well as everyone here, that that list is long and sordid.

            • RedLogix 4.1.2.1.1.1

              Unlike the compilers of those lists, the US had more pragmatic choices to make. As I said above – the intent of the Cold War was to control the politics and contain the Soviets.

              If they ever had a longer term goal it was the not unreasonable hope that by engagement they could hope to influence these nations away from totalitarianism and toward more open, liberal societies. Sometimes it worked, and sometimes it didn't. And even today of the 200 odd nations on earth, the number you'd actually want to live in if you had a choice barely exceeds 50 or so.

              • aj

                If they ever had a longer term goal it was the not unreasonable hope that by engagement they could hope to influence these nations away from totalitarianism and toward more open, liberal societies. Sometimes it worked, and sometimes it didn't

                I'm not going to ask you if a 'pragmatic' 'engagement' like Albright made, one that caused the death of 500,000 children, was a price they had to pay to 'influence a nation away from totalitarianism and toward a more open, liberal society'. I think the answer might scare me. Be real. Everything the USA does, and has done is purely in the interest of money and power. To suggest the underlying reasons are out of the concern for the happiness of other humans beings, altruism … well, each to his own.

                Lesley Stahl asking Madeleine Albright about the sanctions against Iraq in May 1996.

                “We have heard that a half million children have died,” stated Stahl. “I mean, that’s more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?”

                “I think this is a very hard choice,” replied Albright, “but the price – we think the price is worth it.”

              • KJT

                That is laughable.

                The USA has replaced at least 40 and counting, progressive and democratic regimes with totalitarian ones.

                Over 83 and counting deliberate ,"destabilisations.

                The idea that the USA is a force for peace and stability is, on the evidence, comic

              • Cricklewood

                Sadly as far as the USA goes a few commentors here have adopted a '4 Legs good 2 Legs Bad' mentality waste of time engaging…

              • Adrian Thornton

                @RedLogix

                "hope that by engagement they (The USA) could hope to influence these nations away from totalitarianism and toward more open, liberal societies."

                So even though no actual facts support in any way your white man triumphalist fantasy story, in-fact the actual facts tells us your story is the opposite, and is nothing but pure fantasy…(some would say propaganda, but for propaganda to work it has to have a element of truth in it, which is why everyone knows the notion of the USA spreading democracy is bullshit)…but yet here you are, back yet again, straight faced telling us yet again to believe up is down, black is white.

                [RL: Blatant race baiting. Take a week off.]

          • Ad 4.1.2.1.2

            Geopolitics as cabaret.

            But darlin' it's cold outside.

            I really must go.

    • Maurice 4.2

      Unfortunately we seldom get to choose our overlords as they tend to impose themselves upon us. With the British Empire gone and the US hegemony fading one wonders who the next oppressor nation will be that steps into the vacuum ….

      • alwyn 4.2.1

        I suggest you listen to the old Tom Lehrer song about the rocket scientist Wernher von Braun.

        In particular take note of the last line of the last verse.

        "You too may be a big hero,
        Once you've learned to count backwards to zero.
        "In German oder English I know how to count down,
        Und I'm learning Chinese!" says Wernher von Braun."

  5. francesca 5

    A multi polar world may be where we head to next , where there is no singular all powerful oppressor.Have we become so habituated to the neighbourhood bully we can no longer imagine a world without him?

    Personally, I'm more worried by western oligarchs like Bezos, Branson, and Musk (Boggis ,Bunce and Bean) add Thiel,who with their immense wealth and power can drive, unchecked, technology and human aided evolution in ways that continue their power but are not in the best interests of humanity and the life humanity depends on

    • McFlock 5.1

      When elephants fight, the grass gets trampled.

      Not sure four or five bullies beating the weak to assert their dominance is better than one.

      • mac1 5.1.1

        I thought for a moment, McFlock. that you were commenting upon the 'discussions' above at #4.

        What happens when flicking through interminable squabbles trying to find the end.

        Still the elephants have trumpeted, and the ants rejoice……….

        • McFlock 5.1.1.1

          Must be the threads with significant input from a contributor who I'm not allowed to reply to for fear of doom. No point in reading such threads. If there happens to be any accurate medical information or insightful geopolitical commentary, I'll have to pick it up from elsewhere.

  6. AB 6

    I'm interested in Judith's insistence on vaccination targets. She wants a specific number – yesterday (I think) she was saying to Corin Dann that 70-75% will "give us options". She didn't say what those options might be, nor did she have any targets for what those options might produce, e.g. less than x excess deaths and less than y excess hospitalisations annually. She was not pressed on where she got the 70-75% number from. Was it from the Doherty Institute, a faithful echo of Scomo's 'plan', or simply an imitation of what the UK has actually done? Or based on something else?

    This insistence on a hard number, yet total vagueness on what it might lead to, looks methodologically inconsistent. So it seems that what she's really after is an arbitrary target (preferably one that's not very high) because it will provide a justification for doing what National have always wanted to do – open up.

  7. Bearded Git 7

    120 cases in Victoria today. My guess is that Victoria will now throw in the towel like NSW.There goes the Oz bubble.

    https://www.smh.com.au/national/australia-news-live-nsw-victoria-and-act-covid-19-cases-continue-to-grow-more-pfizer-jabs-on-the-way-20210831-p58nku.html

    • Rosemary McDonald 7.1

      .throwing in the towel...might be more of a case of accepting the inevitable.

      UK and Europe looking at only testing people with symptoms. The vaccines offer 50% efficacy for Delta, although they do seem to prevent 90% hospitalisations. Vaccinated people still carry similar viral load as unvaccinated. Vaccinated will be offered booster shots. Herd immunity and elimination no longer feasible. Calls for greater emphasis on immune support and therapeutics.

      And vaccinating children?

      Dr Ruchi Sinha, consultant paediatrician, Imperial College Choosing not to vaccinate children would be unlikely to cause problems in the health service What matters is the burden of patient hospitalisation and actually there hasn't been as much with this delta variant They tend to be the children who have got their comorbidities, obesity, or severe neurological problems and those children are already considered for vaccination. Covid on its own in paediatrics is not the problem

      • Bearded Git 7.1.1

        So children under 12 are expendable Rosemary? You have to be kidding.

        I think NZ should aim to vaccinate 95% of the population including children. Then we might contemplate gradually opening borders with strict conditions.

        • Rosemary McDonald 7.1.1.1

          Who said children under 12 are expendable ?

          Nowhere does anyone say that.

          You're making shit up.

          What would they know in the UK about this? You did listen and read, didn't you?

          [Before you start accusing others of making up shit you must attend to the Moderation note for you here: https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-30-08-2021/#comment-1812340.

          In addition, I have another Moderation note ready for you to your response to another Moderation note, which was lacking and mostly avoiding the note: https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-30-08-2021/#comment-1812409.

          Are you going to do the mahi or take the ban? You are not in Pre-Moderation because I have no time to monitor it, so please don’t do anything stupid – Incognito]

          • Incognito 7.1.1.1.1

            See my Moderation note @ 2:06 pm.

            • Rosemary McDonald 7.1.1.1.1.1

              Bearded Git…"So children under 12 are expendable Rosemary? "

              My response to that was, appropriately, "Who said "children under 12 are expendable"?

              …and answering my own question… "Nowhere (in the article clip linked to)does anyone say that."

              Perhaps Bearded Git could answer my question?

              [In no way did this address your Moderation. You are now in Pre-Moderation, so that I can deal with all your problematic existing and future comments. You’re taking way too much Moderation time by ignoring Moderation notes and keep adding more to it – Incognito]

              • weka

                He can, but you need to respond to Incog's moderation in the other thread or you will be banned. It's not a hard one to sort out, I've commented in the other convo that I think it's a matter of semantics and nuance in language.

                • Rosemary McDonald

                  A young friend visited shortly before Lockdown, and horrified that I had obviously not attended to basic laptop housekeeping, "cleared my cookies". I am sure he did me a good turn, but one consequence of this "cookie clearing" is that I no longer see the "Replies" button to the right of the page. (There are other inconveniences, but they;re not pertinent here.)

                  Gone it is, and has resisted all attempts to restore it.

                  This means that I have no idea if someone has replied to a comment of mine or not…unless I actively go looking.

                  I did spot the Mod note yesterday in passing and thought I had explained myself…but clearly not. I really don't have the time or inclination to go back and have another go. I don't think anything I write now would make any difference.

                  I don't 'make shit up'. I don't spread 'misinformation'. I do obviously have a different way of looking at things from the norm…and I refuse to blindly accept without question all that either the government or mainstream media decide is the 'truth'. I read very widely from news sources from all over the world.

                  With regards to Covid …TS has become largely an echo chamber and Bearded Git's "'So children under 12 are are expendable Rosemary?" is typical of the sort of response I seem to elicit. Responses that are clearly unwarranted and simply wrong…but that largely go unchallenged. I have come to expect these kind of responses now, and see The Standard as being an almost hostile place for any type of discussion about the issue that has dominated the past eighteen months of all of our lives. I guess the 'keep to your bubble' message has been taken a little too far.

                  [Letting this last one go through – Incognito]

                  • weka

                    Thanks for letting me know about the Replies tab, that's pretty important.

                    I also don't believe you make shit up or spread misinformation and I disagree with Incognito's characterisation of your comments. I've had other stuff going on lately so haven't been following the debate on TS, but I understand what you are saying here. There's a lot of tension around the pandemic stuff because it's so close to home (as opposed say to arguing about the US election).

                    I"m tending to let comments slide except where they're going to cause immediate problems or tip over into flaming. I did say something to BG, but the comment wasn't bad enough to get out the bold pen. I can see how this is a problem when there's a lot of active moderation happening elsewhere. Not sure what can be done about that atm.

                    If you get a ban, I will look forward to seeing you back in due course, I think your presence here is good for the community and your comments are often thought provoking. Maybe consider writing a post for TS? That would change the echo chamber a bit. Not sure if you have been writing elsewhere lately?

                    (If you reply here but are banned I will see your reply in the back end)

                    • Rosemary McDonald

                      Thanks weka.

                      I reckons it is of huge importance that you continue to encourage and facilitate 'robust discussion' on sex self ID and the misrepresentation of 'gender conversion therapy'. There's an awful lot of rabbit hole stuff going on at the moment that demands we all suspend fact and reality and pass around the teacups at the party. Left unchallenged the long term effects are going to be considerable. Let not future generations ask why the fuck we didn't speak up.

                      Please keep up this work. I'll be lurking and checking.wink

                    • Incognito []

                      I have a proposal for you, Rosemary, and I sincerely hope you’ll take it.

                      You are a valued contributor on this site and I acknowledge and respect that.

                      I intend to ban you for a while for your series of comments on Covid vaccination and wasting Moderator time. I also intend to reply to at least some of them, for the record only, no further response from you is desirable. However, if you agree to stay off this topic of Covid vaccination, for two months, you are free to continue commenting here, as far as I am concerned. That will reset the current Moderation of your comments.

                      It’ll require mutual trust.

                      Deal?

                    • Sacha

                      After clearing cookies, my experience has been that the Replies tab is automatically restored after the next time I make a comment. I guess logging in would have the same effect. @lprent can clarify.

                  • Incognito

                    What utter bollocks!

                    Please stop your virtue signalling, playing the victim, and blaming others such as Bearded Git for your predicament, which is entirely of your own making. You are setting up a ‘nice’ drama triangle here [HT to RedLogix].

                    You are misinterpreting and misrepresenting a lot of things about Covid-19, particularly about vaccination. For example, see this from Brigid: https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-01-09-2021/#comment-1812893.

                    Discussion of Covid with you is an exercise in futility because of this and your strong negative bias.

                    If you really intend to not bother with the Moderation notes then I will go through your recent comments, for the record and clarification, and just ban you. It is up to you.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    I don't spread 'misinformation'. [Rosemary @9:32 pm today]

                    On 1 August, in Open Mike, Rosemary wrote [@12:25 pm]:

                    Bearing in mind Sabine, the Pfizer so-called vaccine neither prevents infection or transmission of the virus.

                    By definition it is not a vaccine.

                    Claiming that "By definition it [the Pfizer vaccine] is not a vaccine." is clearly spreading misinformation. If the "Pfizer so-called vaccine" is "not a vaccine", then how to explain that "they do seem to prevent 90% hospitalisations" @7.1 [12:36 pm today] – that's some placebo effect!

                    If Rosemary genuinely believes the Pfizer vaccine is not a vaccine, then claiming such might not be disinformation, but it's certainly misinformation.

                    Misinformation” vs “Disinformation”: Get Informed On The Difference

                    Amid the coronavirus pandemic, we are all desperate for information. Where did the virus come from? Is there a cure? How can we keep staying safe? Will life get back to normal?

                    In the case of COVID-19, information can be a literal life-saver—when it’s true. Wrong information doesn’t help anyone and can even make things worse. And like a virus, wrong information can spread, causing what’s been called an infodemic.

                    And now more than ever, we are seeing the spread of two forms of wrong information: misinformation and disinformation. These two words, so often used interchangeably, are merely one letter apart. But behind that one letter hides the critical distinction between these confusable words: intent.

              • Incognito

                See My Moderation note @ 4:27 pm.

        • weka 7.1.1.2

          I also can't see where Rosemary said that, so please be more careful in how you frame your argument BG.

          • Incognito 7.1.1.2.1

            I think Rosemary misinterpreted the comment by Bearded Git. She’s a master at twisting other people’s words to feed her own bias and narrative.

            If they throw the towel in only vaccinated people will enjoy some level of protection against the worst effects of Covid-19, as it stands. The vaccine has been approved in NZ for people of 12+, which means that children under 12 would be more likely to catch the virus, as indeed seems to be happening overseas in relatively highly vaccinated populations.

            Bearded Git also said that he thinks that “NZ should aim to vaccinate 95% of the population including children.” [my emphasis]

            IMO, Rosemary got the wrong end of the stick again and was barking up the wrong tree again. In fact, she did bring up “vaccinating children” in this thread @ 7.1 and stated her position on this again.

            • weka 7.1.1.2.1.1

              I think Rosemary misinterpreted the comment by Bearded Git. She’s a master at twisting other people’s words to feed her own bias and narrative.

              That doesn't explain anything though, other than your view.

              Rosemary brought up the under 12 thing, didn't say much, dropped a quote and linked a video. I can't see how BG got from that that she thinks kids are expendable. Rosemary can't see it either. Where did she say or even imply that?

              She's allowed to express a differing opinion, even if people don't like it. That's robust debate.

              • Incognito

                sigh

                Children under 12 are not being vaccinated, so they go without the protection when we “throw in the towel”.

                Rosemary seems to think this is fine. Bearded Git seems to think this is not fine and phrased this as “expendable”, like it or not.

                I have already provided loads of examples of Rosemary twisting words and conclusions, so I don’t quite follow why you paint it as just my view!?

                If we were are going to have a genuine debate about vaccinating children, here are some recent links from NZ to kick it off:

                https://www.auckland.ac.nz/en/news/2021/07/28/dont-underestimate-covid-in-children.html

                https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/six-children-aged-under-one-have-covid-19-in-nz-bloomfield

                Covid-19 is not just a flu and there is still much we do not know about it and its future variants. We have six babies aged under one who have Covid-19 in Aotearoa-New Zealand. Maybe that focusses the mind?

                Lastly,

                She's allowed to express a differing opinion, even if people don't like it. That's robust debate.

                Sure, she is, but she was under Moderation and simply ignored it, consistently. She’s trying to weasel her way out of it, IMO, and I’m not having a bar of it. Let’s see what she says next, shall we?

                • Rosemary McDonald

                  @ Incognito

                  Children under 12 are not being vaccinated, so they go without the protection when we “throw in the towel”.

                  Rosemary seems to think this is fine. Bearded Git seems to think this is not fine and phrased this as “expendable”, like it or not.

                  Sometimes, incopnito, you slide from simple interference- running to outright fucking lying aggression.

                  Nowhere did I imply that kids under 12 years old were expendable.

                  I quoted a doctor. A paediatrician no less, and a consultant to the Imperial College. Who after looking at all the available information, and no doubt conferring with his peers arrived at the following…which I will provide again…because I try to be helpful like that.wink

                  Dr Ruchi Sinha, consultant paediatrician, Imperial College Choosing not to vaccinate children would be unlikely to cause problems in the health service What matters is the burden of patient hospitalisation and actually there hasn't been as much with this delta variant They tend to be the children who have got their comorbidities, obesity, or severe neurological problems and those children are already considered for vaccination. Covid on its own in paediatrics is not the problem.

                  I suggest you take it up with the doctor. After all…what would he know about it…the UK being so far behind NZ?

                  I get that moderating on a site like this has challenges, and I am also beginning to realise that these days it there is a very fine line between what weka calls 'robust debate' and what you and others here (and MSM and the government) call 'misinformation' or 'disinformation'. What was considered a valid opinion or even 'truth' two years ago can now find itself slapped with a label and a ban hammer.

                  Last year, when it was obvious that there was increasing control over what could and what could not be said about Covid…and I think perhaps it was about the hypothesis that Sars-CoV-2 was a product of a laboratory experiment…I remarked that free speech and the truth might be the most significant victims of this shit show in the long term. I fear I was right.

                  I'll bother you no more incognito. I'll enjoy casting an eye over TS from well outside the tent.

                  • Incognito

                    What is wrong with your reading comprehension?

                    I clearly stated that Bearded Git used the word “expendable”, not you!?

                    There was no “fucking lying aggression” in that at all; it is all in your mind and all yours, as usual.

                    If you’re not fine with not vaccinating children under 12 then you have a really funny way of expressing that.

                    Don’t hide behind a doctor, and why would I have to take it up with the doctor, as they didn’t comment even here, but you did. Own your own words, say what you mean and mean what you say.

                    You’re always so evasive when challenged.

      • Brigid 7.1.2

        'immune support' aka vaccination

        • Rosemary McDonald 7.1.2.1

          There we go again with the 'all the eggs in the vaccine basket' theme.

          Such a pity that our own Ministry of Health seems to have failed to keep up with the science. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3166406/

          Abstract

          It is now clear that vitamin D has important roles in addition to its classic effects on calcium and bone homeostasis. As the vitamin D receptor is expressed on immune cells (B cells, T cells and antigen presenting cells) and these immunologic cells are all are capable of synthesizing the active vitamin D metabolite, vitamin D has the capability of acting in an autocrine manner in a local immunologic milieu. Vitamin D can modulate the innate and adaptive immune responses. Deficiency in vitamin D is associated with increased autoimmunity as well as an increased susceptibility to infection.

          From what I can see..the Consensus Statement from the MOH page I linked to has failed to recognise the link between lower vitamin D levels and immune response. With specific reference to Maori and Pasifica peoples the Ministry's stance is/was that because the bone density in these populations is fine, and they are at no greater risk of fractures, then low Vitamin D or the ability to manufacture Vit D from sunlight (due to darker skin) is not an issue.

          There has been numerous studies looking at the Vitamin D levels of Covid patients and suggestions that Vitamin D supplementation might be a useful tool in the box have been 'debunked' as being "crackpot". A pity.

          Perhaps its time to look at which populations in NZ are at most risk from Covid…and maybe offer them some extra support.

          [You’re going around here accusing others of making up shit and not listening and reading and here you are spinning your own BS narrative again.

          In the factcheck.org link, it didn’t say at all what you asserted it said. In fact, it was almost the exact opposite!!! WTF!!! SSDD!!!

          It could be a genuine misinterpretation on your behalf, but your claim is not true. All this would be less of a problem if weren’t for your confirmation bias and the seriousness of the topic.

          I’m growing really tired of battling your false misguided narratives on all things Covid-19 and it has to end, one way or another – Incognito]

          • Ad 7.1.2.1.1

            An airdrop of 2,000 tonnes of oranges over South Auckland.

            • weka 7.1.2.1.1.1

              raise benefit levels and minimum wage and take the GST off fresh produce.

              (ignoring housing crisis elephant in the living room).

              • Ad

                Not sure how that raises vaccine or COVID19 protection.

                But hey more income to the poor is sure to help generally.

                • Brigid

                  Raising living standards naturally gives one better immunity to viruses, bacteria, or any other greebly.

                  That's been known for ..oh about 120 years

                  • Ad

                    You are saying that's been proven on a COVID19 population?

                    Would you like to join the band with Rosemary and the Reckons?

                • weka

                  "Not sure how that raises vaccine or COVID19 protection."

                  Why would it be an either or? Obviously it should be a both/and.

          • Incognito 7.1.2.1.2

            See my Moderation note @ 2:34 pm.

            • Rosemary McDonald 7.1.2.1.2.1

              I used that particular article to demonstrate how mainstream media has addressed the issue of Vitamin D in relation to Covid.

              A clue to the slant is the author choosing to use the "crackpot" quote from Frieden, knowing damn well that most folks read little other than the header and the opening paragraph. The author is setting the tone. They are a "factchecker" when all is said and done.

              Yes, the author refers to studies that suggest Vitamin D might have uses beyond bone health and acknowledges there Vitamin D supports the immune system and might… tamp down overactive immune responses by tilting those responses toward less inflammatory ones, including by reducing the production of certain pro-inflammatory cytokines, or signaling proteins. (which would be of use with Covid) …then proceeds to cast doubt on any claim that Vitamin D supplementation just might be of use.

              Lack of Evidence for Vitamin D and COVID-19

              Because the coronavirus is so new, little rigorous research has been done specifically on vitamin D and COVID-19.

              Now why on earth did the "factchecking" author feel it necessary to make such a statement?

              Coronaviruses are not new. Coronaviruses require a response from our immune systems and Vitamin D has been found to be immune supportive.

              Especially in immune modulation. (Which the author has already told us) Which, with this particular coronavirus, could be of considerable help.

              And returning to New Zealand and our vulnerable Maori and Pasifika populations (with regard to vitamin D levels)…readers may be interested in this…

              "Burden of Disease Associated with low Vitamin D status in New Zealand"

              Scragg, Grey, Stewart et al" which specifically references Pasifika peoples.

              They say that the 'sun safe' policies should not necessarily apply to Pasifka peoples due to their low rates of skin cancer and low levels of Vitamin D and high disease burden that could be related in part to said low Vitamin D levels. There are graphs and projections and the usual, and they close with a recommendation for clinical trials and perhaps revising sun exposure advice, vitamin D supplementation or fortification of foods to assist with reduction of all cause mortality.

              A pity that this paper was apparently ignored by our own Ministry of Health, who seem to still be fixated on Vitamin D's sole use in the human body being for bone health.

              Me? I'd immediately advise and fund Vitamin D supplements for all at risk groups in NZ…or at least carry out widespread Vitamin D levels testing. Immediately.

              • Ad

                Vaccinating Auckland first, which is where Pacifica are concentrated, covers all those bases. Thankfully the government agrees and is prioritising vaccine accordingly.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 7.1.2.1.3

            From Rosemary's 'debunked' as being "crackpot" link [8 June 2021]:

            There are many crackpot claims about miracle cures floating around,” he [Former Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Dr Tom Frieden] wrote, “but the science supports the possibility – although not the proof – that Vitamin D may strengthen the immune system, particularly of people whose Vitamin D levels are low.

            Thus, while it’s a good idea to get enough vitamin D — pandemic or not — it’s too early to say that a lack of vitamin D makes COVID-19 worse, or that supplementing with vitamin D provides any protection against the disease.

            "Pity" eh.

          • Brigid 7.1.2.1.4

            "There we go again with the 'all the eggs in the vaccine basket' theme."

            I'd rather you didn't mis-interpret what I've written.

            The vaccine offers immunity support. That is actually a fact.

            I've not implied it is the only way to increase immunity.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 7.1.3

        Vaccines prevent 90% of hospitalisations from Covid-19 infections? Sign me up!

        Just kidding Rosemary – I'm already vaccinated.

        Unite against COVID-19
        https://covid19.govt.nz/

        Covid-19: Here's why Jacinda Ardern's British critics are wrong [1 Sept]
        Once the population is fully vaccinated by late 2021, and we know more about the implications of various policy options, New Zealand will be well placed to make an informed choice about continuing with an elimination strategy or switching to a looser suppression approach if that appears optimal. Until then, we hope the country can continue to keep its options open.

        To be clear, once some NZers turn their backs on the Covid-19 elimination strategy that has undoubtedly saved many Kiwi lives, there's no going back. Since ‘Freedum Day’ in the UK there have been thousands of Covid-19 deaths.

        NZ will get around to "living with covid-19" (straight out of the Plan B playbook) eventually – still, no hurry eh. I hope our govt will wait at least until the tragic global Covid death toll on Worldometers exceeds NZ's population, which with any luck won't be until November.

    • Jimmy 7.2

      I believe Victoria are no longer pursuing an elimination strategy.

  8. Reality 8

    Great cartoon. Judith Collins seemingly has a tantrum or tendency to bully whenever she is challenged, whether it be from her own caucus or Breakfast tv. Fair enough to put her case, but she should be able to handle questioning with more composure. Not a person to respect at all.

    When you think how our PM has handled Hosking over the last few years when he has harangued her, what a difference. I never listen to him, but pick up comments from people, so am interested if he gives Collins an easy time in comparison when he interviews her.

    • Jimmy 8.1

      When Jacinda got the hard questions from Hosking that she couldn't answer, she decided not to go on the show any more. I guess that is one way to handle it. At least Hipkins and Robertson still turn up although they do get a grilling.

    • alwyn 8.2

      "When you think how our PM has handled Hosking over the last few years when he has harangued her, what a difference."

      I suppose so. Are you suggesting that Judith should behave like Jacinda? Throw a hissy-fit and refuse to appear for an interview again?

      • Morrissey 8.2.1

        The hissy-fits were entirely those thrown by Hosking. He was clearly incensed by Jacinda Ardern's seemingly effortless ascendancy over him.

        • I Feel Love 8.2.1.1

          Hosking was hissy fitting for weeks after it, I doubt Adern spared him a second thought.

          I'm hearing Collins is having a blinder in the house today!

          • Morrissey 8.2.1.1.1

            He threw a hissy-fit nearly every time she came on his dog of a programme. Her composure, and her constant cheerfulness, obviously rattled him; he never had the wit or the knowledge to challenge her.

            Even Paul Henry seemed gracious and adroit compared to Hosking.

            https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-16092015/#comment-1071308

            • In Vino 8.2.1.1.1.1

              Yes.. Remember earlier on when Hosking tried to tell Jacinda that our frontier controls needed more 'subtleties and nuances' like the Australian controls? As I remember, she smiled and replied, "Mike, if you have become a person of subtleties and nuances – Bless!" Hilarious.

              And I have yet to hear Hoskings defend his argument, given what has since transpired in NSW and Victoria. If we do beat Delta Covid in this round, surely Hosking has to offer an apology? (But does he have a memory capable of recording anything unfavourable to his current obsession? No evidence of that to date.)

      • Gabby 8.2.2

        God yes please.

    • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 8.4

      Ah yes, Hosking, who said this:

      "Berejiklian is Australia's most successful premier. Her state is the best economic performer, she is popular, and she has led far and away Australia's most successful COVID response."

      An authority on . . . well, perhaps Hosking.

  9. Andre 9

    With Algeria finally running out of the last of its supplies, the scourge of leaded petrol for road transport has finally been eliminated from the world, in a significant victory for public health.

    https://grist.org/regulation/leaded-gasoline-lead-poisoning-united-nations/

    But this barbaric substance is still widely and legally used in New Zealand, as far as I can tell. In piston engine airplanes. It doesn't need to be, lead-free avgas is completely technically feasible.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avgas

  10. Bearded Git 10

    https://www.smh.com.au/national/australia-news-live-nsw-victoria-and-act-covid-19-cases-continue-to-grow-more-pfizer-jabs-on-the-way-20210831-p58nku.html

    This from a letter in Oz found on the above link:

    "Renewable power generation hit a record in August – 31.6% of all power generated in Australia was from wind, solar and hydro. Coal was down to 62%."

    Such a triumph when coal-generated power is down to 62%-scary stuff. Still good to see renewables are increasing rapidly in Oz.

  11. Nic 181 11

    Does anyone else have concerns about the person inside the Ministry of Health, who is leaking daily case numbers to the NZ Herald? Is it just a National party supporter or is it corruption? Is the NZ Herald paying an insider for information? The right wing influence of Australian owned news media can be seen around the world. Anybody?

    • Ad 11.1

      Just looks like good old fashioned daily back-channelling to me.

      Beehive staff do it all the time: When the story is this repetetive and dull, you've got to keep the media sweet with fresh stuff.

    • Bearded Git 11.2

      Yes Nic I share your concern. If these numbers are being leaked for political purposes what else is being leaked? It stinks.

    • Tiger Mountain 11.3

      Since the State Sector Act and Reserve Bank Act etc. the public service top echelon seems loaded to the gunwales with fifth columnists by design–well paid neo libs happy to receive bloated salaries courtesy of the tax payer–while frustrating any minuscule move away from monetarist managerialism.

      No? Well even the Deputy Prime Minister is frustrated enough to have set up an Implementation Unit. The informants seem all over Govt. Depts, Immigration being a classic leak source among many others.

      MoH though is a special worry during a pandemic.

      • Ad 11.3.1

        Implementation Unit has to do with policy implementation, not whether infection figures are released.

        Hipkins' lead of the information flow is better than you would find anywhere else.

    • McFlock 11.4

      Is it actually a "leak", or simple liaison with the ministry?

      Yes Minister used the line that "leaking" was an irregular verb: "I give confidential press briefings, you leak, they have been charged under S2A of the Official Secrets Act", but it's public information that isn't necessarily embargoed until a formal relase time.

  12. coreyjhumm 12

    Anyone here following the Canadian election? Trudeau who had a minority govt but could pass any legislation he wanted with help of labours sister party the NDP , the center left BQ or on rare occasions the Canadian conservative party. No party wanted to go to election and all parties especially the NDP had bent over backwards to pass legislation (and made some huge left wing amendments to liberal legislation) Trudeau who came second in the popular vote in the 2019 election but had a plurality of seats was polling well but only about 5% higher than the tory's called a snap election noone wanted in the middle of the fourth wave of a pandemic and with no platform other than attacking the other parties as boogie men is now consistent 2-6 % behind in the polls and it his party may not even be able to form a minority govt now.

    The public are quite furious that he forced an election. His opponents all released platforms he hasn't, and the tory's have interesting policies like putting workers on the boards of companies and banning companies that receive govt money from laying off staff or giving executives bonuses. Trudeau is trying to make this pro choice moderate out to be a knuckle dragging fascist and it's not working, the guy doesn't seem to have a mean bone in his body

    The NDP labours sister party are the most liked and trusted. Their green party is in a state if shambles that makes national look functional.

    What's most interesting is they are all seriously debating and coming up with housing policies that make nz parties look like right wing free market zealots in comparison. Though interestingly they all seem to be wanting to ban foreign ownership which is fascinating because nzlp got hell for wanting to do that…

    This election is keeping me occupied 🤣 I find it fascinating how often nz politics mirrors nz politics for the last two decades of they elect a Tory we elect a Tory in our next election 2006 can 2008 nz) if they elect a young progressive we elect a young progressive in our next election 2015, 2017)

    The interesting thing is regardless of whether Trudeau wins a minority, majority or loses this seems to be his last election campaign he's distrusted by the left the right and the center , he's less popular than his party which he brought from the dead and they won't want him to run again if he wins a majority, if he wins a minority he'll have put the covid outbreak at risk and wasted billions on an election noone wanted for nothing and will likely be rolled and if the conservatives win well he'll be gone.

    He may go down as the Theresa May of Canadian politics all because of his cynical arrogance to throw an election two years earlier, funnily enough I and many others thought he was once the template all center left leaders should run on but his charisma hasn't led to policy reforms or the transformation people wanted and expected and hoped for…

    Stormy days are on the horizon eh

    • coreyjhumm 12.1

      And while much has been made about the similarities between Ardern and Trudeau (and we borrowed quite a bit of their ideas especially messaging and social media for 2017) I believe apart from being young excellent media managers that's about where it ends. Trudeau is a trust fund baby who lacks substance and is a cringe machine with comments like "people-kind" "she-lection" "she-cession" who bombards the public with so social virtues he doesn't believe in and while his organization has run a good covid response his governing has been marred in quite serious corruption allegations and he isn't let's say a brain box the way his father or Ardern are he recently said "I don't think about monetary policy" , imagine the hell an nz candidate would get for that, Ardern is an afept administrator and while I have issues with policies and the pace of transformation she is not style over substance, she has both , Trudeau junior is all style and no substance.

      He did however save his party's fortunes when it looked like the NDP had finally replaced the liberals as the main party of the opposition he was able to increase his party's seats from 34 to 184 in two years but governing is a hard job. He also has broken a million promises , he promised 2015 would be the last campaign under first passed the post and then won a landslide, ironically much like the UK if they had proportion the center left would always be in power.

      Here's hoping for an NDP win or at the very least a strong NDP that can bargain or gain concessions from the liberals I hope proportional rep is one of them.

      • Ad 12.1.1

        There's no point looking for anything redemptive for the left in the Canadian election.

        The Conservatives will get the greatest share, the centre left will decline, and the wee minorities like the Greens will continue to consign themselves to the 1-2% dustbin of history.

        The Liberals would need to team up with the New Democratic Party to have a shot at power. Not likely so far.

  13. Morrissey 13

    This fool needs to be thrown out of the Party, schnell.

    It hardly matters, now that the Labour Party has been burned to the ground by its Blairite rump, but surely this fellow should be automatically excluded for being stupid enough to speak up for untermenschen six years ago. It's verboten for any British Labour Party member to speak up for them now…

    https://twitter.com/trendylefty/status/1432705834925105157

    • coreyjhumm 13.1

      Uk labour is dead in the water unless it can form some kind of progressive electorate seat alliance with the lib Dems and greens to not split the center to center left vote.

      The agreement could be any labour govt institutes proportional rep but weirdly the labour party who would have governed in every election since the 70s with PR is dead against it they'd rather be a large opposition than a coalition govt.

      Also the party that most wants PR the liberals are dead set against deals, coalitions and negations so I don't understand what they think they'll do in a PR system if they don't like compromise or coalitions or working with other parties

    • Ad 13.2

      After 2 massive electoral losses, Keir Starmer can figure out what his predecessors didn't.

      More foolish Middle Eastern donkeys like George Galloway will continue to seek to split the vote and turn Labour to rubble. Galloway came very close to killing Labour off in the Batley and Spen by-election just a month ago. Corbyn just made it worse in 2019 and worse until he let Boris Johnson in, such was his ineptitude.

      Corbyn and Galloway have just ruined much of Labour's traditional vote in the north. Corbyn should just retire. Galloway is just a perpetual loser.

      • weston 13.2.1

        Personally i find much to admire about Corbyn AND Galloway .I enjoy Corbyns quiet dogged pursuit of his principles and Galloways steely resolve to right wrongs and injustices .To tell the truth im in the habit of going to bed and watching MOATS but i seldom last the whole three hours !

        • Tony 13.2.1.1

          Hi Weston, I also hold both Corbyn and Galloway in high regard, what is MOATS please?

          • weston 13.2.1.1.1

            Evn Tony MOATS is the mother of all talk shows avail apparently on multiple platforms i watch it on you tube.Its up to episode 115 i think atm is broadcast every sun night from london so we get it the following day

      • Adrian Thornton 13.2.2

        One of the most important things Corbyn did while leader of the UK Labour, was to unwittingly expose without question which individuals and institutions who were/are actually Left Progressives and those who are (left leaning?) Liberal Centrists…two quite different things…I find the results of that unveiling very helpful indeed.

        And btw, who is another last high profile politician you can name who has been regularly on the front line in food banks, marching in solidarity for Palestinian Human rights raise his voice over the treatment of Julian Assange?

        When Corbyn was LOTO, this was just one of his and his team’s contributions delivered to food banks for Christmas
        https://skwawkbox.org/2020/12/21/when-corbyn-was-loto-this-was-just-one-of-his-and-his-teams-contributions-delivered-to-food-banks-for-christmas/

        • Ad 13.2.2.1

          Politics isn't therapy, witting or unwitting.

          What Corbyn exposed was simply nothing more than himself. You either show you have the capacity to achieve and hold power, or you just don't. Hell even Milliband got closer to power than Corbyn.

          • weston 13.2.2.1.1

            Considering the forces of power amassed against him making damn sure he didnt come to power how could corbyn have brought about a different outcome ?Round the clock media attacks were only a part of the strategy .He was deliberately brought down imo by concerted effort on many fronts .Perhaps some of us can remember the antics of a certain pr company called Cosby and Texter and what they managed to achieve both in nz and aus fairly recently ?Add in an intelligence service or two maybe and his chances became slim indeed .

          • Adrian Thornton 13.2.2.1.2

            " Hell even Milliband got closer to power than Corbyn."…no he didn't, and he only got as far as he did because he was no threat to the status quo and power..

            Critics must accept Jeremy Corbyn has created largest political party in Europe – and work with him

            https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/john-prescott-critics-must-accept-8626296

            This is why he didn't get into power…..it's a simple as that.

            Labour’s Jeremy Corbyn: Redistribute UK wealth, tax the rich

            https://apnews.com/article/elections-london-international-news-jeremy-corbyn-general-elections-72b180c44ca67f73ce5d5ebe21269790

            Backed by Corbyn, over 3,000 march for ‘free Palestine’ in London

            https://www.timesofisrael.com/backed-by-corbyn-hundreds-march-for-free-palestine-in-london/

          • Tiger Mountain 13.2.2.1.3

            Jeremy Corbyn rattled the ruling class cage–no mistake there. Senior British Military figures openly threatened a coup if he was ever installed in 10 Downing St! His social democratic model and international solidarity outlook was way too much for the generals and British capital and finance capital.

            Jeremy’s two key mistakes imo were…
            1. not playing hardball with the underminers–he should have vigorously deselected right wing candidates, and made most of head office reapply for their jobs.
            2. waffling on Brexit–all that was needed was to say…we will respect the vote of the people whichever way it goes AND implement “For the many not the few” policy of re-nationalisations etc.

            • Ad 13.2.2.1.3.1

              Yes that would have helped in 2019.

            • Adrian Thornton 13.2.2.1.3.2

              What Corbyn exposed quite clearly in the UK (and to some extent, here) is that half the people we hear who identify as 'Left' of 'Progressive' etc, shit their pants when a actual live Left wing politician comes along and looks like they might actually get into a position to make the radical changes they thought they believed in…turns out most of them are not now and never will be on the side of radical progressive change, and when push comes to shove will actively work against it, as we have seen…Lenin got that one right!

  14. Grafton Gully 14

    A career portfolio manager's climate change predictions.

    “Climate change is the next major mega-trend, and we believe it represents the biggest investment opportunity since the internet,” says portfolio manager at Munro Partners James Tsinidis.

    “We’re just at the beginning of the next big S-curve, a massive and sustainable decades-long growth trend.”

    https://www.afr.com/wealth/personal-finance/climate-change-biggest-investment-opportunity-since-the-internet-20210826-p58m4w

  15. aj 15

    Corbyns quiet dogged pursuit of his principles and Galloways steely resolve to right wrongs and injustices

    Agreed. Principled individuals in politics are rare. Craig Murray is another person whose current predicament hasn't caught the attention of many here.

    https://twitter.com/craigmurrayorg

  16. Jan Rivers 16

    My open letter to Dr Ayesha Verrall on why the conversion practices prohibition legislation bill is such a terrible idea. It really is.

    https://www.publicgood.org.nz/wp/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Letter-to-Dr-Ayesha-Verrall.pdf

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