Open mike 01/08/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 1st, 2021 - 144 comments
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144 comments on “Open mike 01/08/2021 ”

  1. Anker 1

    https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/heather-du-plessis-allan-drive/audio/kris-faafoi-you-cant-try-to-change-someones-sexual-orientation-or-gender-identity/

    anyone not deeply concerned about this needs to take a good hard look at themselves.

    you have it from our Minister of Justice. If you are a parent of a 12 year old who identifies as a member of the opposite sex, and as a parent you say no to your child taking puberty blockers (that countries such as the UK and Finland no longer allow and for which there is no good evidence for their efficacy), then it would be seen to be attempting conversion therapy and said parent could be dragged through the legal process and face five years in jail.

    who in earth in the right mind thinks this is ok? Labour has been completely captured by gender ideology and have completely lost it.

    I will be actively campaigning to see them voted out

    • Sabine 1.1

      a child at 12 years of age

      can not consent to sex

      can not legally conduct business

      can not get a tattoo

      can not get a lisence

      can not move out to live on its own

      can not get a full time job

      but they can and will get puperty blockers.

      I am very happy i have twice not voted for this crew.

    • Cricklewood 1.2

      Its absolute insantiy, its lucky the Nats are a shamble because if stuff like this starts getting traction alongside hate speech legislation the the tide will turn against the govt very quickly… fuck lightbulbs and showerheads became a flashpoint for Helen Clarke this will be much much worse.

      • Muttonbird 1.2.1

        Yet here we are, all using said lightbulbs and shower heads.

        • Sabine 1.2.1.1

          Is it all the same to a Labour Voter? Your child is comparable to a shower head or maybe an EV?

          Funny though, that what people fear under national they wholeheartedly agree with under labour. So its not a question of 'better' its a question of unquestioning loyalty and as always in these cases the most vulnerable will pay the bill.
          In this case, kids that may wake up in the future, with their reproductive organs destroyed in the name of a bullshit gender ID.

          As for the lightbulbs and showerheads, ask yourself if you will be rich enough in the future to have enough money to pay for the electricity and the water use?

        • Cricklewood 1.2.1.2

          Yep… because the issue sat with people not wanting govt to rwll them what to do in their homes… this potentially has the same effect.

          • Sabine 1.2.1.2.1

            well, i voted for Helen Clark that last election that she lost to John Key. I would have loved to vote for Jeaneatte Fitzsimmons, but all that is history.

            To compare the potential of long lasting physical damage to people because as pre- teens they wanted to be the opposite sex for waht ever reasons shows to me that some people have lost what it means to be human imo.

            Maybe the governments decision to mutilate the children of this country in the name of Gender ID is cheaper then to actually tackle sexual harrasment /rape /physical violence against girls and women, and it must be certainly cheaper tehn actually providing mental health support to those who need and want it.

            Labour, cheap as, and proudly so.

        • Anker 1.2.1.3

          The issue of parents facing five years in prison for telling their kids they are not getting puberty blockers is the what I posted about.

          Bringing in light bulbs and showerheads is just a deflection technique and has no relevance to the conversion therapy bill .

          Muttonbird either have the guts to say you don;t think there is a problem with parents who say no to their 12 year old taking puberty blockers facing a five year prison sentence or admit that things are going horribly wrong.

          • Cricklewood 1.2.1.3.1

            My point was that voters dont like govts telling them how to live and the certainly wont like being told how to raise their children and being potentially criminalized for it.

            To be clear im completely against the proposed as I am hate speech legislation

            • Anker 1.2.1.3.1.1

              Hi Cricklewood, my comment was directed towards Muttonbird who I felt implied that there was nothing to see here, we all got use to showerheads.

              So understand you were making the point that people hate interference in their home life

          • Muttonbird 1.2.1.3.2

            Again, it was Cricklewood who made the analogy. Why don't you try reading the comments?

            • Anker 1.2.1.3.2.1

              ok Muttonbird, I take your point. I think you then added "yet here we are all using light bulbs and showerheads".

              I interpreted this as meaning in 15 years time no one with be bothered about kids on puberty blockers. My apologies if that is not what you meant at all

              • Muttonbird

                I don't imagine parents are going to go to prison for blocking blockers.

                What Faafoi should have said to 1ZB was that he hoped parents and children would discuss all options available with qualified medical and psychological experts and find out what's best for their family.

                1ZB’s gotcha, shock-jock broadcasting does not help inform the public well on sensitive subjects.

                I think they are disgraceful myself but aggressive, fake-news reporting seems to be the favoured model as media outlets vie for the ears of cashed up conservative wankers.

        • weka 1.2.1.4

          "Yet here we are, all using said lightbulbs and shower heads."

          Was that worth nine years of FJK?

          • Incognito 1.2.1.4.1

            Depends on whom you ask. I think some people would argue that those nine long years were the golden years of and for the National Party. It was only because the Election was ‘stolen’ from them that they didn’t get a fourth term, it was that close.

    • Forget now 1.3

      Efficacy at what; Anker? The evidence is certainly conclusive that GnRHa are efficacious in the role of blocking the onset of puberty. Maybe you mean; effective in creating positive health outcomes for the patients? But even that isn't very controversial, though at least less clearcut:

      Gonadotrophin-releasing hormones have been used to delay puberty since the 1980s for central precocious puberty. These reversible treatments can also be used in adolescents who experience gender dysphoria to prevent development of secondary sex characteristics and provide time up until 16 years of age for the individual and the family to explore gender identity, access psychosocial supports, develop coping skills, and further define appropriate treatment goals. If pubertal suppression treatment is suspended, then endogenous puberty will resume.

      https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/142/4/e20182162

      If dysphoria is too difficult a topic, lets shift over to precocious puberty. Whatever the opinions on Trans use of puberty blockers, can we at least agree that pre-teens are really not mature enough to go through puberty, and that it's good to have medicine to delay that?

      Youngest mother on record was Lina Medina at 5years age (father was never identified – pre Franklin, so no DNA tests); apparently she's still alive somewhere in Peru. She would likely have appreciated access to puberty blockers!

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lina_Medina

      • Anker 1.3.1

        https://segm.org/NICE_gender_medicine_systematic_review_finds_poor_quality_evidence

        Forget now…………….NICE have done a thorough review of these medications. There findings show no or very low evidence of benefit

        NICE (National Institute for Clinical and Health Care Excellence ) review most medical treatments. they are independent and scrupulous in their findings. Their finding trump any other research you might quote. In this case there is no debate about this.

        Moving along now Forget Now are you ok with parents of a 12 year old who say no to puberty blockers facing a prison sentence for five years?

        I am not hear to debate the issue of precocious puberty. I would hope that clinicians consult with parents about medical options and that the parents have a very large say in that, if not the only say and don’t face five years in jail for saying no.

      • weka 1.3.2

        What's the efficacy in using puberty blockers to treat gender dysphoria?

        How many kids on PBs progress to cross sex hormones?

        What risks are there from both classes of drugs?

        Why aren't the voices of detrans people being heard in this debate, especially detrans lesbians?

        ie young women who transitioned to trans men, then detransitioned for a range of reasons including it made no difference to their GD or made it worse.

        Young lesbians who found an easier pathway to being a trans man than an out lesbian, but who later realised that radical surgery and hormones came at a huge cost that wasn't warranted in their case.

        Young people in a huge bloody mess whose only option was gender identity affirmation from clinicians, and who weren't offered or supported into looking at other mental health issues or social pressures, and who weren't offered other treatments eg counselling.

        • Joanne Perkins 1.3.2.1

          The reason for little or no trans or ex trans comments on this list is, I would posit, pretty easy to discern from recent post. What posts you ask, the ones where lots of people on this list made statements of support for trans people at the same time as declaring they are just (in the case of MTF) Men in dresses, I'm sure you can find them fairly easily, there are lots of them, some of them attacking Stephanie Rodgers for example. I'm only commenting because I've had enough of being demonised by people who post things like 'NICE' research trumps any other you could come up with. O course it does if it agrees with y ur view of the world and how it works. I will at least be up front here, I am a 64 year old Trans woman and I don't agree with self identifying. I also think that there is a lot of transphobia in some of those posts. Don't think I'm saying people hate trans folk, I'm not because that's not what transphobia is. The word says it, it is a phobia, a fear of trans people, though why anyone would fear me is pretty inconceivable. You have come up with Women Space, good on you, I'm not asking for transpace because I suspect I might be the only, or one of the very few trans people who read the Standard on a regular basis so what would be the point, but I certainly wouldn't feel welcome in the women's space, and believe me I don't actually care what anyone thinks of me personally but there are some pretty broad brush strokes being made in the posts I have referred to. Anyway, my 2 cents worth.

          • Nic the NZer 1.3.2.1.1

            Nobody has been attacking Stephanie Rodgers. Lots of people criticised her argument which (if you read the recent post) declared the obvious fact that biological males gain significant long lasting sporting performance advantages during puberty, to be irrelevant. She is however welcome to make a serious argument at any time, just this early cut was perceived as feeble (a bunch of slogans which are clearly contradicted by the evidence).

          • Ad 1.3.2.1.2

            Joanne, hang in there.

            I'm still optimistic the clauses in the bill will pass, and all the anxiety will evaporate.

            We're the first country on earth to send a transsexual to the Olympics and yet we're still waiting for the legislation to catch up with reality.

            • McFlock 1.3.2.1.2.1

              I reckon the next five years in NZ will go something like this:

              A government, court, sporting body, or any damned institution anywhere will make a reasoned judgement on the issue, mostly with a genuine intention of making the best call with the best available knowledge at the time, based on their organisational objectives.

              A bunch of people will go "but why didn't they listen to us? This is a tragic day for our community and justice".

              A bunch of other people will praise the organisation's "brave" and "fair" decision that was made "rationally, on the available facts".

              As to which group is which, things will probably keep going the way they're going for the next few years, but the conservative backlash will be ugly.

              • Anker

                Well I agree McFlock, I think the backlash will be ugly.

                I don't see why some poor parent should be dragged through the court system or threatened with it, facing 5 years in jail, just because they tell their 12 year old kid they can't go on puberty blockers.

                • McFlock

                  Or, to rephrase the information in your linked article in comment 1, even if the police and the attorney general seperately come to the conclusion that there is sufficent evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the parents' medical choices for their child are demonstrably causing harm with the intention of trying to change the child's sexual orientation or gender identity, you don't believe that such an instance should be put to the court.

                  A conversion practice had to be directed towards someone because of their sexual orientation, gender identity or gender expression, and performed with the intention of changing or suppressing their sexual orientation, gender identity or gender expression.

                  Then harm had to be shown for a child, or serious harm for an adult.

                  If police decided there was a case, the Attorney-General would then need to sign it off before charges could be laid.

                  BTW, it's "Laurel" Hubbard. At least get her name right.

                  • Anker

                    AB that is a fair comment from you.

                    But I think it should be ruled out pronto! It will damage the party hugely and if they don't rule it out, they will be dead meat when the first test case comes to light.

                    By the way a father went to jail for six months in Canada for refusing to accept hibs daughters gender identity and objected to the treatment proposed. I think from memory she was 14 years old. Will find the link if you like.

                  • Anker

                    Reply to McFlock…….Of course it shouldn't go to court…….It should be dealt with as all other such issues, through Orangi Tamariki. Whatever their faults, that is their job. That is the sort of thing they deal with.

                    The legislation will intimidate parents for making what they consider is the best decision for their child.

                    I wasn't going to comment on Laurel Hubbard today, but I am wondering if anyone can tell me, if there is no difference or very little between female and males in sport, how come Laurel, didn't get very far when she competed as a man?

            • Anker 1.3.2.1.2.2

              Well Ad not everyone agrees with Laureen Hubbard competing in the women's section. I have posted it many times, but biological males have a significant advantage over biological women in sports. Tracey also posted a separate link on Women's Day.

              Ad your comments are another example of a man being happy to celebrate handing over a women's category, space to a biological male. Thanks but no thanks.

              If you followed the issue in the US there are multiple examples of transwomen, biological males winning against females, taking their awards. Nothing to celebrate there.

              transwomen more than welcome to compete in what should be the open category.

          • weka 1.3.2.1.3

            Thanks Joanne. I don't disagree that TS isn't very conducive to trans people talking openly about trans politics. But then I'm a feminist who rarely feels it's worth it or safe to write feminist posts on TS. Few people seem bothered enough to do anything about that either.

            "O course it does if it agrees with y ur view of the world and how it works."

            The irony there is that if No Debate hadn't happened, we'd have worked through most of the issues by now. The great thing about TS is that if someone puts up a piece of R/S, others can pull it apart. On *any side of a debate. The shit thing about TS, is that it takes time to do this, and the most marginalised people often don't have the time or safety or inclination to use up their energy that way. But at least there is an opportunity here to make progress.

            I also believe that there is transphobia on the left and within GC/GCF movements, both antipathy towards trans women and the subconscious or casual transphobia that exists in the same way that sexism or racism does on the left. Again No Debate is a massive problem here that is actively hindering resolving this.

            One thing that would help if is people saying there is transphobia in a comment or post they also quoted the specific bit and explained *how it is transphobic.

            I think calling trans women 'men in dresses' is demeaning, and usually speaks to the person being transphobic. It's also an own goal for GCFs because part of the point of breaking down gender role norms is to free people from oppression so that we can wear whatever we want. I key word searched the Women's Day comments and there aren't any comments of that kind there, there are some under the Kathleen Stock post, but to me they're mostly not aimed at TW but at cross dressing men. People are on a learning curve about what trans is, and the definition of trans is so broad now that it's going to take time in society to work through what is fair and just.

            I'm sure it looks different to you. All I can offer here is that if people want to address any of these issues, I'll do my best to moderate so that it doesn't get out of hand and so that all sides get a fair hearing.

            • Joanne Perkins 1.3.2.1.3.1

              Thanks Weka, I've been reading TS for over 24 years though I've only commented a handful of times, however I have never felt that I had to speak up on behalf of Trans folk until this GC/GCF business came up. At university in my 40's I was always welcome in the women only spaces and I found hearing how unwelcome I actually was to be quite dispiriting. If anyone is interested in discussing any issue related to trans ness I am happy to share my understandings in relation to my lived experience, but it is only my experience. Other people will will have different experiences than I do so I personally prefer that mine don't get somehow assigned to all trans women.

              • weka

                I think there would be many here who would welcome hearing your views based on lived experience. Myself, I think such stories are crucial to building understanding across difference.

          • Anker 1.3.2.1.4

            Ok Joanne, I am glad you have posted your point of view

            I have to say I don't think I am demonising other's research when I say NICE trumps other research. As I said NICE is an Institute that is thoroughly objective and impatial. They don't really care what the evidence shows them, they just care about being scuperlous about evidence. I think it is fair to say that a lot of the research that has been done is by people who hold a particular position.

            I think Stephanie was criticized by one or two commentators on the Women's Day post, but I don't recall her previously commenting on the Standard, although I understand she did.

            If isn't that pleasant when people make it personal. Someone on today's Open Mike said about me, words to the effect that "you make yourself look like a deranged obsessive". That was pretty unkind, but I guess he is entitled to that view. I would prefer it if he had of debated the issue. So sometimes people get personal on the Standard. Its unfortunate. I try not to myself, but it would be untrue to say I never have.

            I appreciate you commenting and I wish you well

    • David 1.4

      I am with you Anker on this one. I know very little on this legislation. However as the father of a 10 year old daughter I heard all I need to hear from the Minister on HDA to confirm this legislation absolutely needs to be opposed.

      • Anker 1.4.1

        HI David, Yes I totally understand your concern!

        Take care and if you have energy for it, write to your MP or visit them. Gather up any friends who are also alarmed and take action if you are in the position to do so.

      • Gypsy 1.4.2

        I'm with you and Anker. And after Faafoi's similarly awful performance on the hate speech laws, I'm beginning to wonder if the problem may be both the message and the messenger.

    • bwaghorn 1.5

      Yip the worlds getting stupider by the day, my kid told me the other day that thier school tried gender fluid toilets at a primary school for fucks sake!!

      No surprises they got rid of it because boys took the piss , literally by the sound of it .

      Act and national grow in % every poll fucking snap out of it you fools.

  2. Andre 2

    Restrictions on unvaccinated people are starting to happen in many places overseas.

    https://fortune.com/2021/07/26/europe-us-next-steps-covid-passport-mandatory-vaccine-fight-delta-variant/

    Outright anger at the unvaccinated is happening more and more in the US.

    https://people.com/human-interest/vaccinated-americans-express-anger-with-those-who-refuse-covid-vaccines/

    It's likely both those things are coming to New Zealand sometime early next year, after all those that want the vaccine have received it.

    • Sabine 2.1

      Surely they can quickly write a bill and criminalise all these people. I hear prisons are a good investment.

      • Cricklewood 2.1.1

        Well yes we doing seem to proposing to criminalize more things so investing in prisons seems a safe bet… and I read today the comancheros have their own wing in Mt Eden remand prison… wtf

        • Sabine 2.1.1.1

          There is good money in keeping a high bed occupancy rates in Prisons.

          Labour/National, The same coin, very little difference.

          • Anker 2.1.1.1.1

            Yes National want to lock up the gangas, Labour want to lock up parents who refuse their kids puberty blockers, or therapists who attempt to explore issues with clients (which is what therapists do) get mis-interpreted as conversion therapy. Or worse still a vexacious clients lies about what was actually said.

            Therapists are regulated by Professionals Bodies. They should be left to do their job of evaluating complaints about therapists. There is also the Health and Disability Commisioner. I have only heard of one therapist in this country practicing conversion therapy. FFS what overkill.

            If I was a therapist I would be looking not to working with any clients who I felt under threat of a prison sentence. Lets face it there is a desparate shortage of therapists. Why would you want to endanger yourself?

            • RedLogix 2.1.1.1.1.1

              Interesting comment. A few months back I was nattering away one night with the guy who heads up our site security/service group. Turns out like most mature people he's started out in a quite different field (that I won't detail for privacy reasons) – but it was very much dealing with people's personal issues and counselling.

              I asked why he gave it away as it was clear he had invested decades of his life into it and I'd judge he was very good at it. His answer was partly the predictable burnout that most of these people experience – and exactly what you describe, the increasing risk of vexacious clients. He went on to say that in many ways he missed the work – the burnout you could recover from – but the professional hazard had only become worse with time.

        • Anker 2.1.1.2

          Yes National want to lock up the gangas, Labour want to lock up parents who refuse their kids puberty blockers, or therapists who attempt to explore issues with clients (which is what therapists do) get mis-interpreted as conversion therapy. Or worse still a vexacious clients lies about what was actually said.

          Therapists are regulated by Professionals Bodies. They should be left to do their job of evaluating complaints about therapists. There is also the Health and Disability Commisioner. I have only heard of one therapist in this country practicing conversion therapy. FFS what overkill.

          If I was a therapist I would be looking not to working with any clients who I felt under threat of a prison sentence. Lets face it there is a desparate shortage of therapists. Why would you want to endanger yourself?

      • Andre 2.1.2

        Nah, no real need. It's a fairly short-term issue. At most it will just be two or three years before pretty much everyone has either been vaccinated, or got the disease and died or survived the disease with whatever long term problems they get from the experience.

        Although maybe if the Nats were in power, they'd go for it. Like you say, it's a great potential business opportunity.

        • Sabine 2.1.2.1

          Who cares what National would do when it is Labour running the show.

          And i personally don't believe that this virus is going anywhere soon. And anyone who does, must really ask themselves why they think it will.

          I totally expect prisons for the 'uneductated' and the ‘unwilling’ and ‘unvaccinated’ and ‘unco-operative’ and i would not put it past Labour to fill those prisons. After all, the economy must be going strong.

          But then, some truly believe that Labour is not the other side of the same coin. 🙂

          • Andre 2.1.2.1.1

            What the Nats might do becomes a relevant question in 2023. Particularly if public opinion swings against Labour's handling of pandemic.

            Either by being perceived to be unreasonably restrictive (ignore the rantings of the Husks and his ilk, they're not the swing voters), or by being perceived to have opened up too early by being insufficiently mindful of new information (like I happen to think they were by opening up to Oz when Delta was starting to happen and neither Oz nor we had any kind of wide vaccine coverage).

            • Sabine 2.1.2.1.1.1

              i honestly don't care.

              Our political environment is called MMP.

              The best government anyone of us can hope for is one that is based on multiple parties forging a coalition.

              And that is the same on the left and the right.

            • Anker 2.1.2.1.1.2

              I think public opinion will swing against parents facing five years in jail for telling their kids they can't use puberty blockers. Wait for the back lash.

              I don't see any good options as to who governs NZ, but one thing is for sure. I have lost all respect for Labour.

              • Andre

                Y'know, you've probably made your views clear on other threads today. Derailing this thread to your hobbyhorse as well just makes you look like an unhinged single-issue obsessive.

                • Anker

                  Y'know Andre, it is Open Mike, so my understanding is that any topic here is o.k. And you know I was the first to comment today, so I have know idea about what you mean about de-railing this thread.

                  "makes you look like an unhinged single-issue obsessive"……thank you for your very gracious response to me. (sarc)……….I most often find on this issue, when people have no decent arguements, that start trying to label me i.e. they play the woman not the ball.

                  I am not aware of any rules on the Standard that say you must post or comment on more than one issue. I am sure the moderators would have pulled me up if this was the case.

                  I

                • Anker

                  Y'know I have been pondering this some more Andre. Have you just gaslighted me? You know that thing people do where they try to make out to others that a person is crazy ("unhinged" or "obsessive") to try and disempower and discredit them.

                  What do you think???????

                  Whatever, please don't imply anything about my mental health again please.

                  And btw, a number of people on this thread and this site support what I am saying.

              • Patricia Bremner

                Parents can be imprisoned for many acts against their children here. In the USA children can divorce their parents, and there have been cases where children know their gender long before 12 years of age.

                Being a parent does not make one infallible, just emotionally invested. The important person in this equation is the child. Rigid thinking won't help, and outside experts as in psychology, may assist with what may be a family trauma.

                This government has gone with the science in their practice, and will continue to do so.

                Last time it was vaccinating girls against human pap virus which some thought parents would refuse believing it would encourage loose behaviour. Now vaccination is clearly accepted.

                Ministers have advisers, and do sometimes get ahead of public opinion. It is a balance of rights in a situation where the child is powerless, a hard one.

                • Rosemary McDonald

                  This government has gone with the science …

                  There's science, and then there's science.

                  Discrepancies in the evaluation of the safety of the human papillomavirus vaccine

                  Despite being more than ten years since its introduction, global acceptance to the human papillomavirus (HPV) vaccine is still low. The immunogenetic background of the host, and HPV antigen recognition, are important in natural HPV infection, and should be taken into account in the understanding of adverse autoimmune reactions by the HPV vaccine in certain groups. There is no doubt of the benefit of vaccines in the reduction of the incidence of infectious diseases, and in the case of HPV, the prevention of persistent infection that would lead to cervical cancer. Side-effects, however, should be closely monitored and reported without any bias, to ensure that the benefits of vaccines outweigh the risks of adverse reactions. In this article we bring the attention on certain adverse effects of the vaccine against HPV that have not been well studied as they are not well defined. We also compare the different approaches on HPV vaccine policies regarding its adverse reactions in countries like Japan and Colombia, vs. the recommendations issued by the WHO.

                  It is way too easy to write off those with concerns about a vaccine to prevent cervical cancer as being religious fundamentalists. Too easy, and lazy, and in too many instances harmful to too many young women.

                  That small and seemingly insignificant percentage of vaccine recipients who suffer severe and long term adverse reactions are routinely dismissed and ignored.

                  This refusal to acknowledge that some vaccines do harm some people does more to fuel vaccine hesitancy than any anti -vax promoter.

                  • RedLogix

                    That small and seemingly insignificant percentage of vaccine recipients who suffer severe and long term adverse reactions are routinely dismissed and ignored.

                    And the consequence of this is an undermining of trust. One of the defining characteristics of the entire public health apparatus during this pandemic has been it's treating of the public as children – who can be routinely underinformed or misdirected 'for their own good'. You might get away with this a few times, but eventually enough people see what's going on.

                    And face it – vaccines (indeed almost all medical interventions for that matter) depend on trust. None of us, not even medical professionals themselves, can be across the details of everything. So when we see public health systems behaving in ways that seem untrustworthy, or corrupt even, it becomes normal and natural to doubt, question and seek better answers.

                    To be fair it's my view that public health systems were handicapped from the start in that they believed that SARS-COVID-2 was just another zoonotic virus that could be safely handled with their existing toolkit. I think it's turned out this was only partly true and globally the response has been deeply politicised and fumbled from the start. And in particular the window of opportunity to drive this virus to extinction last year has passed – I was optimistic then, I'm not now.

                    Instead we've allowed this virus to do what it was created to do, adapt to evolutionary selection pressure and the result is at this point in time – Delta. And slowly public health authorities are waking up to how this has changed the game. To add to the challenge there are so many complex parts to this pandemic, so many contradictory aspects that I doubt anyone really understands what is going on and what's likely to happen next.

                    We're truly in uncharted waters now and it would be better if we cut down the volume of the bickering and paid more attention to what was happening.

                    • joe90

                      Instead we've allowed this virus to do what it was created to do,

                      To be fair, what we've allowed is the undermining of trust to be monetised.

                      https://twitter.com/jason_kint/status/1420960217609773060

                    • RedLogix

                      How did the US election get muddled into this?

                      Or are you suggesting that google should be appointed the sole arbiter of what is allowed to be said?

                      Not at all sure what your point is.

                    • joe90

                      How did the US election get muddled into this?

                      It's the same business model, be it elections or public health.

                      edit: my point – it’s shouting fire in a crowded theatre shit

                    • RedLogix

                      And sometimes fire do indeed break out. It's a question of intent.

                      Last year I was getting shouted down when I suggested that we needed to be more careful about the potential for variants to arise. It was almost as if people wanted to believe that the principles of evolutionary biology didn't apply to this virus. Yet here we are with Delta and it won't be the last.

                      Just to be clear I believe that on the preponderance of circumstantial evidence (> 95% probability) that SARS-COVID-2 is a lab escape from GoF research conducted in Wuhan. Equally there remains a small but non-zero chance it has a true zoonotic origin. There is no proof for either hypothesis at present – and labelling either as 'misinformation' isn't justified.

                      And that we can also recognise that a lot of people have strong professional and political motives to ensure that no conclusive evidence for the lab leak hypothesis ever sees the light of day.

                    • joe90

                      It's a question of intent.

                      The bottom line. Explains the furious back-peddling from it's a hoax, vaccination is a plot panders to an audience of believers and drags in the advertisers, to listen up, it's real and vaccines work because the lawyers see legal consequences on the horizon.

                      https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1421129356869570562

                      ditto this shit, for as long as the audience demands it

                      https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1421204601294970884

                      btw, China's Chernobyl I reckon – an accident, a poor attempt to save face and manage their way out of the crisis and bingo, pandemic

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    This refusal to acknowledge that some vaccines do harm some people does more to fuel vaccine hesitancy than any anti -vax promoter.

                    Funny thing is I've never read or heard of a reputable vaccinologist (you know, someone who is a vaccine expert) who has refused to acknowledge, or "routinely dismissed and ignored" evidence that vaccines have adverse (side-)effects. And yet, if I'm interpreting your comment correctly, these 'dismissive vaccinologists' are thick on the ground.

                    There is no doubt of the benefit of vaccines in the reduction of the incidence of infectious diseases, and in the case of HPV, the prevention of persistent infection that would lead to cervical cancer.

                    Imho the vast majority of vaccinologists believe that, on balance, vaccines are a net benefit to human health. The Covid-19 vaccines, in particular the more effective ones, are also of net benefit to human health – one only has to look at how lethality of Covid-19 infections has declined dramatically in countries with moderate-to-high vaccine coverage. It really is that obvious, and that simple. Of course improved medical treatment(s), and less pressure on health systems, helps.

                    And, since you're dishing out the "too easy, and lazy" pejoratives, and insinuating that the global medical establishment is ignoring, dismissing and refusing to acknowledge the side-effects of COVID-19 vaccines, I've got another pejorative for you: 'alarmist'.

                    • Rosemary McDonald

                      Hmmm…did you read the paper I referred to?

                      A review of the HPV vaccine safety by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found no difference in side effects between vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals (Gee et al. 2016). In fact the CDC's Vaccine Adverse Event reporting System (VAERS) states that the HPV vaccine is very safe, and has not found any unexpected patterns in maternal or fetal outcomes (Moro et al. 2015).

                      These conclusions, however, are based on records that should be interpreted with care, especially when assessing cases with non-specific diagnosis, for which there is not a clear consensus on the diagnostic criteria (Goldenberg 2009) (Fig. 1).

                      Despite these pronouncements on the safety of HPV vaccine, regions in Colombia have reported a disproportionate number of neuropathic pain cases (with respect to the expected reactions declared by the pharmaceutical company producing Gardasil) (Sánchez-Gómez and Hernández-Flórez 2014).

                      It is important to note that the occurrence of demyelinating disease after vaccination, despite being low, is not negligible. This type of complication has been reported for multiple vaccines such as influenza, HPV, hepatitis A or B, rabies, measles, rubella, yellow fever, anthrax, meningococcus, and tetanus.

                      And so on until the end of the paper.

                      Perhaps we can agree that the vaccinologists of global note, or at least the greatest reach, are found at the CDC? The same CDC that effectively dismissed any link between the HPV vaccine and reported side effects.

                      As for 'perjoratives'…unintended, I assure you. PB wrote '…loose behaviour.' which triggered the recollection from way back when Gardasil was first rolled out. There was some that were concerned that this vaccine would give license to promiscuity, and some of that was from religious communities. It didn't help that it was in predominantly Catholic Latin America that there were (for reasons the linked to paper suggests requires investigation) a significant number of adverse effects. Add to that reports of a cluster of vaccine damaged girls from Ireland (which were considered 'worth it' in terms of the protection afforded the rest of the vaccine recipients) and the stage was well set for the narrative to emerge that HPV vaccine opposition emanated from the religious conservatives.

                      Very unfortunate, because it allowed the real reason for Gardasil hesitancy….the large numbers of girls significantly affected…to be sidelined.

                      And sidelined they were…as the paper I linked to suggests.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    I appreciate that you want to help Rosemary. It boils down to who and what you trust. I trust expert scientific consensuses. They're not always right (who/what is), but (in my experience) they're right more often than not (including on vaccines), and these consensuses can evolve..

                    I believe it's more than just dumb luck that my trust in expert (evidence-based) consensuses has often been rewarded, and the placebo effect probably doesn't hurt either.

                    Perhaps we can agree that the vaccinologists of global note, or at least the greatest reach, are found at the CDC?

                    We can agree that reputable vaccinologists work at the CDC, and that they contribute to various national and international consensuses on the efficacy and safety of vaccines.

                    It is way too easy to write off those with concerns about a vaccine to prevent cervical cancer as being religious fundamentalists. Too easy, and lazy, and in too many instances harmful to too many young women.

                    It's also seems way too easy to write-off vaccinologists as 'lazy'; maybe they, like you, also want to minimise (needless) harm and death in their communities, albeit in their own lazy ways.

                    Ireland has one of the highest cervical-cancer rates in western Europe, with 90 deaths a year, but uptake of the [HPV] vaccine has plummeted following opposition from a number of groups.

                    Cervical cancer statistics
                    Cervical cancer is the fourth most commonly occurring cancer in women and the eighth most commonly occurring cancer overall. There were over 500,000 new cases in 2018. The top 20 countries with the highest rates of cervical cancer in 2018 are given in the table below.

                    Estimates of incidence and mortality of cervical cancer in 2018: a worldwide analysis
                    Cervical cancer continues to be a major public health problem affecting middle-aged women, particularly in less-resourced countries. The global scale-up of HPV vaccination and HPV-based screening—including self-sampling—has potential to make cervical cancer a rare disease in the decades to come. Our study could help shape and monitor the initiative to eliminate cervical cancer as a major public health problem.

                    A few lazy experts in NZ have somehow managed to assemble this well-referenced educational material on the HPV vaccine Gardasil 9.

                    https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/consumers/educational-material/gardasil9QandA.asp

                    Here's what they have to say about Gardasil's serious side-effects:

                    What about serious side effects?
                    One to three people in every million (1-3 in 1,000,000) who are vaccinated with Gardasil 9 have a serious allergic reaction. This is why you are asked to wait after vaccination. The person giving you the vaccine is trained to deal with allergic reactions.

                    One in every one hundred thousand people (1 in 100,000) who are vaccinated with Gardasil or Gardasil 9 each year develop symptoms of nerve damage such as numbness, weakness and difficulty walking (known as Guillain-Barré Syndrome and acute disseminated encephalomyelitis.)

                    Guillain-Barré Syndrome and ADE also occur in 1 in every 100,000 people who haven’t been vaccinated. These disorders are usually caused by infections such as influenza which cause the persons own immune system to attack their nerves.

                    There has been some concern that HPV vaccines can cause Postural Hypotension Tachycardia Syndrome (POTS), Complex Regional Pain Syndrome (CRPS) and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS). Medsafe has reviewed the data on these concerns and found that there was no evidence that HPV vaccination caused these issues.

                    During the clinical studies there were 7 deaths (out of 15,875 people).

                    • One woman committed suicide.
                    • One woman died in a car accident.
                    • One woman died unexpectedly nearly two years after completing vaccination.
                    • One woman with previous ovarian cancer died.
                    • Three women with leukaemia died, one had been diagnosed before being vaccinated and one was diagnosed nearly 4 years after completing vaccination.

                    These deaths were thoroughly investigated, none of them were caused by the HPV vaccine. They represent the unfortunate circumstances that sometimes occur in teenagers and young adults.

                    Only 7 deaths (out of 15,875 people)? Surely there must have been more – I smell a rat.

              • RedLogix

                Totally agree Anker. Puberty always has been a period of emotional turbulence and vulnerability. We recognise this with among other things an age of consent, and strong social censuring of age inappropriate relationships where exploitation of immaturity is highly likely.

                Exploiting this natural period of sexual volatility – that almost always resolves itself with time – to impose irreversible biological change with powerful puberty blocking drugs is in my view profoundly wicked. Objectively I'd consider this practise potentially more damaging than outright sex abuse.

                Traditionally we expected parents to provide a framework of protection in this period – an often difficult and usually thankless task. With the slow undermining of the family as a basic social unit, and the virtual demolition of the role of fatherhood in particular, little of this applies any more. Any parent attempting to constrain the poor choices of their children can expect no support, and now the prospect of a criminal prosecution.

                The logical destination of this trend is of course straight out of the dystopian novels – the dismantling of the nuclear family (a dream of the marxists right from the outset) and it's replacement with the apparatus of the state. If this seems a straw man – then consider that the discussion we are currently having on other threads around 'self identifying gender' would have been considered utter lunacy just a decade ago.

                • AB

                  I would totally agree if I thought that this is what the legislation was intended to do, or would even rarely do as an unintended consequence. I'm not convinced on either of those points – because it is such a preposterous and unimaginable outcome. We've all seen plenty of alarmist over-reaction to legislation of this sort – from the homosexual law reform bill of the 1980's to the S58 repeal in the 2000's.

                  • RedLogix

                    Fair enough – the conversation does tend to stray from the relatively narrow topic of the legislation. But on the other hand puberty blockers are a real thing … and again a mere decade ago would have been considered crazy talk.

                  • Molly

                    Perhaps you should take time to investigate what has happened in other Western countries where those unintended consequences are indeed occurring,

                    The new law regarding non-conversion therapy is written in such a way that does not prevent this result.

                    Read the review into the Tavistock Clinic and have a look at the case of the father trying to stop his child from receiving puberty blockers.

                    Although we have an opportunity to learn from these 'unintended consequences' from overseas, we seem to be sleepwalking into passing similar laws without changes.

                    The post Sabine put up last night is worth a watch if you have the time, to see how badly wriiten laws and lacklustre safeguards can result in institutional harm.

                    https://twitter.com/imwatson91?lang=en

                    I think the comparison to the Homosexual Reform Bill is a lazy.false equivalence. There are concrete concerns about how the proposals are currently written which does mean they are bigoted or ill-advised.

                  • Anker

                    AB have you listened to what Kris Faafoi said on the link I posted at the top of Open Mike? That seems to be exactly what he is saying. It might not mean five years in jail but it could.

                    • David

                      Exactly. This is not some theoretical scaremongering. It is the responsible Minister saying without equivocation it is exactly what could happen … 5 years jail for a parent who intervenes when their child wants to self medicate. He thought this was a perfectly acceptable outcome.

                    • AB

                      I did – but I'm not convinced Faafoi actually knows or can say either way with any certainty. We have courts. Agreed that puberty blockers are a minefield and it would not surprise me if pharma companies turn out to be inventing medical conditions that just conveniently happen to be ' treatable' by drugs they have sitting on the shelf.

      • mauī 2.1.3

        Yes, maybe we can start the internment camps on Rangitoto for all smokers and the slightly overweight next year too… Wouldn't that be lovely [sarc].. 🙄

        • RedLogix 2.1.3.1

          You can always tell the totalitarians ideologues – they're really good at finding fresh scapegoats to punish.

        • Anker 2.1.3.2

          AB that is a fair comment from you.

          But I think it should be ruled out pronto! It will damage the party hugely and if they don't rule it out, they will be dead meat when the first test case comes to light.

          By the way a father went to jail for six months in Canada for refusing to accept hibs daughters gender identity and objected to the treatment proposed. I think from memory she was 14 years old. Will find the link if you like.

    • Poission 2.2

      Vaccination by itself is not a full control,physical health interventions still need to be both maintained and increased (say enhanced international travel restrictions eg Sydney).

      https://twitter.com/yaneerbaryam/status/1420484703941971980

      • Andre 2.2.1

        For sure there won't be a return to anything resembling pre-2020 normal.

        But once everyone here that wants vaccination has received it, I for one won't have any appetite for level 3 or level 4 lockdowns to try to regain elimination status. Nor will I have any patience for requiring 2 weeks of managed isolation for all international arrivals including vaccinated citizens and permanent residents.

        In general, I've been on the cautious side when it comes to restrictions. I thought opening a travel bubble with Australia was ill-advised and premature. I thought some of the lockdowns were lifted earlier than was wise.

        Now consider, if someone as cautious as me won't support ongoing stringent efforts to maintain elimination after the widespread vaccination programme is complete, where will the balance of opinion lie across the rest of New Zealand?

      • Sabine 2.2.2

        The world had a window of 'elimination' strategy, last year and if the world would have gone into 'lockdown' as a collective it might have worked.

        By now, there is no more 'elimination' strategy. There is a mitigating, keeping at bay, hoping to vaccinate many strategy as most if not all the issues that we went into lockdown are still the same.

        No bed capacity in hospitals. Not enough ICU beds, if a huge outbreak were to occur i doubt we would have enough ventilators (yeah, we got a 100), not enough Staff -be that nurses, orderlies, cleaners, nurse aids, cooks etc to actually properly staff any of our hospitals in NZ – and the current RSV outbreak showed a light to that failure.

        so the very best anyone can hope for atm, is that if you get the delta variant or any other after that that one may survive or better even, does not need to be hospitalised.

        And that is what Israel is betting on. They don't care about the infections per se, but the death rate. If only a few die, they have 'won'. Here have a booster shot.

      • Cricklewood 2.2.3

        One of the most vaccinated countries as well… i guess it shows that they're not overly effective in stopping transmission so much for herd immunity.

      • aom 2.2.4

        Perhaps Israel is paying a price for trumpeting its fabulous vaccination rate.

        Bitten on the bum because Delta has come from the Palestinians that they refused to provide vaccine for, contrary to their international obligation as an occupying power?

    • Rosemary McDonald 2.3

      The unvaccinated might be safer in jail from the superspreader vaccinated. Serious enough to force the CDC to change its guidelines.

      During the outbreak investigation, researchers learned that the amount of virus in the noses of vaccinated people experiencing a breakthrough infection was the same as in an unvaccinated person — a worrying sign vaccinated people can spread the virus.

      "This finding is concerning and was a pivotal discovery leading to CDC’s updated mask recommendation," said CDC Director Rochelle Walensky in a statement.

      "This is a very concerning outbreak — pretty much a 'super spreader event,'" said Dr. Carlos Del Rio, executive associate dean and global health expert at the Emory School of Medicine.

      • Sabine 2.3.1

        again, anyone expecting this 'vaccine' to be a miracle cure also needs to ask themselves why they think that.

        Yes, you can catch the flu after a flu shot, yes, you can transmit that flu. But if you have been vaccinated you might not die of it, or get ill enough to warrant staying home or in hosptial.

        This is the same. AS for those that don't want the vaccination, don't. But for what its worth, i would make sure i have my last will in order. because not only can you catch it, transmit it, you have a very good chance dying of it. A much larger chance then those that have had the vaccine. So it appears.

        • Rosemary McDonald 2.3.1.1

          What the latest from the CDC is saying is that those smug fully vaccinated free-ranging through the community are as much as, if not more of a risk to those who are not vaccinated. Not vaccinated for whatever reason. Including those who cannot be vaccinated, or should not be vaccinated.

          The much anticipated badge of conformity that will be the Covid Vaccine Passport will be simply fluff and window dressing. 'Cos appearances.

          • Sabine 2.3.1.1.1

            funny that tho,

            my friends in the US that are fully vaccinated 'smugs' free ranging, they don't. They understand the science, and are still masked when indoors, still don't hang out at sturgis, or Lollapallooza etc , don't go unmasked into mega churches for a bit of a pandemic god fix, etc.

            The ones that are 'freeranging' are the unvaccinated ones, those that are bathed in the blood of Jesus, or that believe in crystal healing or the microsoft chipperys.

            But as i said, don't vaccinate, just keep yourself to yourself, and make sure you have your will in order in case you have a will. Just you know, to cross all your t's and dot your i's. So far the vaccine is not mandatory and you get to freerange unvaccinated to your hearts contend.

            • Rosemary McDonald 2.3.1.1.1.1

              The ones that are 'freeranging' are the unvaccinated ones

              Evidence? Citation?

              • Sabine

                you might like this.

                https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/covid-19-vaccine-breakthrough-cases-data-from-the-states/

                Also i would assume that you are currently free ranging unvaccinated.

                • Rosemary McDonald

                  Also i would assume that you are currently free ranging unvaccinated.

                  Why on earth would you assume that?

                  • Sabine

                    Because you don't strike me as a person who would volunteer for a vaccination.

                    • Rosemary McDonald

                      Bearing in mind Sabine, the Pfizer so-called vaccine neither prevents infection or transmission of the virus.

                      By definition it is not a vaccine.

                      Now, having had the smallpox, polio, TB, DTP, vaccines…

                    • Sabine

                      bear in mind that i really don't care if or not you vaccinate.

                      Truly. It is your decision, and as i have stated before in regards to being pro or con, one makes ones decision and ones then lives with it and all the resulting consequences.

                  • Andre

                    If you are in fact now vaccinated against covid, it would raise a lot of questions about your motivations for posting all kinds of vaccine misinformation here with the apparent goal of pushing people towards misinformed refusal of vaccination.

                  • Andre

                    Let's just look at your first contribution to this thread:

                    The unvaccinated might be safer in jail from the superspreader vaccinated.

                    That statement implies that vaccinated are more of a threat to the unvaccinated than other unvaccinated. Utter misrepresentation. Vaccinated people are a much lower threat simply because they are much less likely to be infected and infectious. From your CDC link:

                    Infections in fully vaccinated people (breakthrough infections) happen in only a small proportion of people who are fully vaccinated, even with the Delta variant. Moreover, when these infections occur among vaccinated people, they tend to be mild. However, preliminary evidence suggests that fully vaccinated people who do become infected with the Delta variant can be infectious and can spread the virus to others.

                    Following the link in that quote we find:

                    Two studies from the United Kingdom found significantly reduced likelihood of transmission to household contacts from people infected with SARS-CoV-2 who were previously vaccinated for COVID-19.

                    The piece linked below from Science Based Medicine is specific to covid, but the discussion about common anti-vax propaganda techniques covers several of your common misinformation techniques here on this site.

                    https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/cognitive-illusions-and-how-not-to-write-about-covid-19-and-children/

                  • Andre

                    You want another example if your ongoing misinformation campaign? Here you go, your statement just above at 12:25

                    Bearing in mind Sabine, the Pfizer so-called vaccine neither prevents infection or transmission of the virus.

                    By definition it is not a vaccine.

                    Here's the actual definition of vaccine:

                    Definition of vaccine

                    1 : a preparation that is administered (as by injection) to stimulate the body's immune response against a specific infectious agent or disease

                    Note that it does not have a range of efficacies which something needs to meet before it can be called a vaccine, merely that it is intended to stimulate an immune response. There has never been a vaccine that meets your misinformation incorrect definition, which appears to be an attempt to falsely discredit the Pfizer vaccine.

                    Even the smallpox vaccine, which successfully eradicated smallpox from this earth, only had about 95% effficacy. But this less than 100.000% efficacy was still enough for communities to achieve herd immunity and eventually end all chains of transmissions.

      • Andre 2.3.2

        Yep, the vaccinated can still get it, and they can still spread it.

        But the vaccinated are very strongly protected from severe illness, and they are almost completely protected from the virus killing them. So far, I have yet to see reports of long covid happening to the vaccinated.

        It's a very striking contrast between the very high risk of death or long-term disability for the unvaccinated, versus the worst case scenario for most of the vaccinated being a minor short term inconvenient unpleasantness like a cold or mild flu.

        • Cricklewood 2.3.2.1

          Having trouble with links etc again on mobile… google search will find it…

          Tennessee health department have recorded 27 deaths out of just over 1000 breakthrough cases.

          • Andre 2.3.2.1.2

            So Tennessee has recorded a total of about 1000 breakthrough cases, huh?

            New infections in Tennessee are running around 1800 a day and climbing fast according to Worldometer.

            1800 a day among the unvaccinated, versus 1000 cases in total among the vaccinated, looks to me like a damn good argument to get vaccinated.

            • Cricklewood 2.3.2.1.2.1

              Sure, was just interesting. There's still alot to be learnt and here's hoping we haven't made any serious mistakes…

              • Andre

                We haven't made serious mistakes yet. Or maybe we did with allowing people back from Oz while Delta was ramping up, but we just got lucky (so far).

                But the whole game changes once we achieve vaccination coverage of all those that want it. When that is achieved, there will be much more risk in being excessively restrictive to those that have done the right thing and get themselves vaccinated.

                Emergence of new variants that are much more infectious to the vaccinated being the obvious known unknown in all of this, of course.

                • Cricklewood

                  Hopefully we dont end up in a situation where the vaccines we rushed out have the effect of making a new strain worse.

                  The vaccination for Denghue fever had this effect so now its not given unless you have already had the virus.

                  I forget the technical term but it is something that has happened with a handful of vaccines.

                  • Andre

                    So far I have yet to see anything that even hints it might be happening out in the field.

                    The potential antibody dependent enhancement problem with Dengvaxia was known and warned about before it was rolled out in the Philippines. The problems found could have been prevented by antibody testing the recipients before administering the vaccine, but the cost of that would have been quite a burden for a poor country like the Philippines. If you want more detail, this is a good piece:

                    https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2017/12/sanofi-restricts-dengue-vaccine-downplays-antibody-enhancement

                    In the development of the covid vaccines, the possibility of antibody dependent enhancement was carefully considered. But it's fairly uncommon for diseases to behave that way, and there's been no evidence of it in other coronaviruses.

  3. joe90 3

    Nothing quite like a wee nudge from a dude who's worked for tobacco companies, gambling sites, and voter deterrence campaigns.

    https://twitter.com/MikaelThalen/status/1421194741685706753

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1421191364776108042.html

    Leaked chat logs reveal how the former lead psychologist for Cambridge Analytica has been working behind the scenes with a notorious anti-vaccine group in the U.K.

    The chat records, provided to the Daily Dot by the activist collective DDoSecrets, detail efforts by HART (Health Advisory and Recovery Team), a self-described “group of highly qualified UK doctors, scientists, economists, psychologists and other academic experts,” to influence politicians on issues related to COVID-19.

    https://www.dailydot.com/debug/leaked-chats-ex-cambridge-analytica-patrick-fagan-hart-group/

  4. joe90 4

    They never miss.

    • Cricklewood 5.1

      Can we infer from your post, that our failure to deal with the measles outbreak and the subsequent outbreak in Samoa make our Director general of Health and govt baby killers?

      Because that was a disgrace.

      • joe90 5.1.1

        Did our Director general of Health and govt actively undermine public health policy?

        • Cricklewood 5.1.1.1

          More a case of we didn't act appropriately for reasons unknown, especially given measles is highly infectious and the consequences are well known. But the result as we know was multiple deaths.

          I flew to the States during the outbreak the terminal had multiple notices warning of a measles outbreak in New Zealand and if you are unvaccinated and feeling unwell to report to the nearest official immediately.

          There was nothing about in Auckland international which was a massive fail.

          • joe90 5.1.1.1.1

            There was nothing about in Auckland international which was a massive fail

            Nothing to do with the failure to follow vaccine handling protocols and the Samoan governments failure to counter the country's abysmal vaccination rates, huh?

            • Andre 5.1.1.1.1.1

              I'm still struggling to get my head around how a (presumably) trained nurse could do something so obviously disastrous as mixing (expired) muscle relaxant anaesthetic into the vaccine, rather than water.

              I mean, sure the water was probably in a labelled bottle so might have been mistaken for a medication of some kind, needing to be sterile and all. If the water containers looked like medicine containers, that points to a systems failure with an obvious, easy, and cheap fix. Such as sterile water for dilutions is always in blue containers. But still …

              • joe90

                The proprietor of my local beer shop sat down for lunch with Mrs and a guest and they all drank a caustic cleaning solution mistakenly served up as a cold drink. Mrs and the guest got a whiff and were hospitalised, badly burnt, but they survived. Poor old Bob had lost his sense of smell years ago and necked his. He never made it out of the back of the shop.

                Apparently it had always been kept in the right place in an appropriate container, until the day it was transferred to a fizz bottle and ended up in the chiller…

                • RedLogix

                  If the baby killer boot fits ….

                  So in the light of your story above – do you have any evidence that anyone intentionally setting about killing Samoan babies?

                  Or as said below – is the blame game easier and more rewarding for you?

            • Cricklewood 5.1.1.1.1.2

              Thing is we knew about Samoa's vulnerability to measles and then sat on how hands.

              The outbreak started here due tocour own low vaccination rates and was poorly managed leading to spread to Samoa.

              Thats on NZ.

        • weka 5.1.1.2

          "Did our Director general of Health and govt actively undermine public health policy?"

          Personally, I think the whole throwing blame around is massively counter productive to personal health policy.

          If we're talking about building good systems, NZ did fail in some of its obligation to protect Samoa from our own measles outbreaks. If the same situation were to arise now, would closing the borders seem more acceptable?

          • Andre 5.1.1.2.1

            If the same situation were to arise now, would closing the borders seem more acceptable?

            Protecting the health of Samoa's people is much more the responsibility of Samoa's government than ours.

            If the same situation were to arise today, I would expect the Samoan government to be much more active about trying to lift their vaccination rate back up and closing their borders to travelers coming from countries experiencing an outbreak. But personally, if somewhere I wanted to visit was willing to accept me, but our government prevented that because of a small disease outbreak in s small somewhat closed community within New Zealand, I would be absolutely outraged.

            Just like in our current situation we have severely restricted movements across our inbound border – to protect our people. Nobody anywhere else in the world is trying to stop people leaving to travel to NZ to protect NZ from an outbreak. At least not that I know of.

          • Incognito 5.1.1.2.2

            The general belief is that we, individually and collectively, learn from past experiences to better predict consequences (outcomes and impacts). Taiwan was arguable better prepared than most because of past pandemics. NZ may have learned from the measles experiences.

            Public health policy is more than just a bunch of direct ‘technocratic’ measures; it also includes research as well as education through communication and giving clear, consistent, and carefully explained guidelines and instructions. However, it never operates in isolation, least of all when things become heavily politicised and polarised.

            • weka 5.1.1.2.2.1

              I was thinking how as the outbreak in Samoa was starting it wasn’t even a consideration to close borders. Covid changed that. I don’t know if lessons learned from Samoa and measles included border closure options.

              there’s a lot to unpack in that, but I think our polarisation on vaccines doesn’t serve us particularly well.

              • Incognito

                Polarised debate is an oxymoron, not even a euphemism for a shouting contest across a bottomless and unbridgeable divide. Our politicians are our role models and as soon as they show a sign of deviating from the unwritten book of public opinion, they are hauled over hot coals and condemned to eternal damnation by pundits/voters. Those same voters who pride themselves standing up for the underdog, natural justice, and all that other virtue shit.

                • RedLogix

                  For what it's worth this very recent WaPo article based on new CDC document is absolutely worth a read:

                  “I think the central issue is that vaccinated people are probably involved to a substantial extent in the transmission of delta,” Jeffrey Shaman, a Columbia University epidemiologist, wrote in an email after reviewing the CDC slides. “In some sense, vaccination is now about personal protection — protecting oneself against severe disease. Herd immunity is not relevant as we are seeing plenty of evidence of repeat and breakthrough infections.”

                  The document underscores what scientists and experts have been saying for months: It is time to shift how people think about the pandemic.

                  Kathleen Neuzil, a vaccine expert at the University of Maryland School of Medicine, said getting more people vaccinated remains the priority, but the public may also have to change its relationship to a virus almost certain to be with humanity for the foreseeable future.

                  “We really need to shift toward a goal of preventing serious disease and disability and medical consequences, and not worry about every virus detected in somebody’s nose,” Neuzil said. “It’s hard to do, but I think we have to become comfortable with coronavirus not going away.”

                  This article is something of a breakthrough in the msm – in that it starts to acknowledge what we've really been up against all along.

  5. Anker 6

    AB have you listened to what Kris Faafoi said on the link I posted at the top of Open Mike? That seems to be exactly what he is saying. It might not mean five years in jail but it could.

    • Cricklewood 6.1

      I'll bet Faafoi refuse to do another interview on the subject. He's apparently to 'busy' to be interviewed on the hate speech legislation and thats one of the most contentious and complicated peices of legislation in recent times.

      It really is a bad joke.

      • Stuart Munro 6.1.1

        It does seem unfortunate, though not yet necessarily on the scale of the antismacking debacle. Much depends on whether the rule change is instantiated among people, rather than remaining an object of abstract political contention – which can be quite damaging enough.

        The position of the courts in the Tavistock case seems to be that under sixteens are not likely to be able to give informed consent in respect of a treatment as contentious as puberty blocking. They at least are in no hurry to rush in where angels fear to tread. Not so whoever is boosting this policy evidently.

  6. Robert Guyton 8

    Our PM is covered by a "mat" in a ceremony of apology for the dawn-raids – covered by a mat!!

    She's a phenomenon!

  7. Robert Guyton 9

    "The Green Party’s 11 seats would easily get it over the line into governing."

    Stuff says.

  8. KSaysHi 10

    Would those in our parliment care as much about vaccine passports? I'm not sure I can see anything other than the fresher MPs going with the flow, mores the pity.

    https://twitter.com/GilbertCollard/status/1420802177698877440

  9. Muttonbird 11

    At the last census 40,000 homes in Auckland were empty. That's tens of thousands of kids without proper housing.

    Let that sink in before obsessing over niche politics like gender arguments.

    Amateur landlordism is the real social disease.

    • Incognito 11.1

      At the last census 40,000 homes in Auckland were empty.

      Funny that you should say that. Apparently, most of those ghost houses in Auckland were just a bad dream.

    • Sabine 11.2

      Yep, the similar number was brandished during the Key years, and we had at the time an opposition party who said it was gonna fix it.

      Maybe its not the amateur landlords that are the problem but the Red/Blue coin of NZ that refuses to regulate the housing ownership market.

      Here an article from 2019

      https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/05/bulging-at-the-seams-auckland-a-super-city-struggling-with-its-own-success

      The city is also working with developers to provide affordable homes. A survey found Auckland contained 40,000 “ghost houses”, properties empty for much of the year.

      From 2016

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/rise-of-the-ghost-homes-more-than-33000-auckland-dwellings-officially-classified-empty/3JXSEQNUK36SBG7UBQMJ3VUPGU/

      More than 33,000 Auckland dwellings are officially classified empty as the city grapples with a crisis of affordable housing and homelessness.

      from 2015

      https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/-ghost-houses-hit-auckland-renting-market-6338478.html

      Labour's Housing spokesman Phil Twyford says there could be thousands of houses in Auckland being left empty.

      "That's a shame because there are so many people in Auckland desperate to get a roof over their heads," he says.

      Building and Housing Minister Nick Smith doesn't think the number of ghost houses is rising, and there is no way of knowing how many of Auckland's 22,000 unoccupied properties are being deliberately left empty

      I think one can conclude that this issue is now bi-partisan.

      But then women having an issue that they are worried about and talk about is not a big deal, and really can't they just not understand what the real issues are right? Because we can only ever be concerned about one thing at a time.

      • Muttonbird 11.2.1

        A lot of current commentary at the Standard is centred around gender issues.

        Perhaps that's because no-one cares about the rest. People are selfish. They do tend to promote their own concerns. People in warm, dry homes can afford to have other concerns.

        My concern is housing. I think it's the most important issue out there.

        Sue me.

        • Sabine 11.2.1.1

          yes, it is currently in the news thus people discuss it.

          As for the homeless and unhouses, and those 23000+ on waiting lists surely the government is gonna do something once its got the hate bill done. Surely. Any effn day now. Cause they said so. Right? Anb besides who does not like a bill that risks criminalising parents for maybe refusing to jack their kids up with puperty blockers and undergo permantent surgery in the form of double masectomies at a young age. I mean they did campaign on that? Right?

          Yeah, nah, they campaigned on fixing the housing market and keepin NZ safe. Right? Lol.

          • Muttonbird 11.2.1.1.1

            Pushing through reform is difficult stuff, no doubt. Some people agree with some reform and disagree with other reform.

            • Sabine 11.2.1.1.1.1

              Setting people up to be criminalized for not letting a child be on puperty blockers willy nilly, setting 'women' and 'lesbians' up for a criminal charge if they refuse to allow transwomen in to their own spaces or to see them as women (aka Gendercrime) is not 'reform', its bullshit, and it is wrong.

              And again, I am so very happy to not have voted for this lot, and i will be even happier next time when i will again not vote for them.

              Every day again, these people remind me that it was the correct thing to do.

              • Muttonbird

                You've said who you are not voting for, repeatedly. But not who you are voting for.

                Hope it's not Seymour…

                • Sabine

                  it will be as always the least offensive choice, as that is pretty much all that is there to vote for. Offensive and not so offensive.

                  • Incognito

                    The least ‘offensive’ (honestly?) would be not to vote at all and ‘virtue-signal’ that as loud and often as possible on The Standard.

  10. pat 12

    Hate speech, gender identity, flags, pandas, housing

    odd one out?

  11. Joe90 13

    The chair of Australia's only listed water trader boasts about the flaws in the market and the profits to be made when the next drought hits…but three waters bad.

    https://www.michaelwest.com.au/going-nuts-murray-darlings-unbelievably-beautiful-story-for-investors-a-nightmare-for-farmers-environment/

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