Open mike 01/08/2015

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 1st, 2015 - 147 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmikeOpen mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

147 comments on “Open mike 01/08/2015”

  1. AsleepWhileWalking 1

    Moving to a cashless system (as is currently being attempted overseas) would allow banks/the government to financially shut down anyone they don’t approve of, and therefore is unacceptable to New Zealand values.

    • b waghorn 1.1

      It would make low end tax evasion and drug dealing much harder so I’m pro cashless society .

      • AsleepWhileWalking 1.1.1

        Legalising all drugs would do this and is a better option than universal removal of liberties (Portugal).

        Cashless society would by definition include extensive tracking of individuals.

        • Draco T Bastard 1.1.1.1

          Extensive tracking of individuals already occurs – by the banks, by Google, and generally by corporate world which is very close to being a monopoly.

          Basically, you’re saying that something shouldn’t happen because of something that’s already happening and of which you’re not complaining.

          • AsleepWhileWalking 1.1.1.1.1

            Just because tracking already occurs does not mean we should permit more extensive controls over the population.

            There are of course ways around this such as barter, green dollars, ithaca monetary system. This would limit tax take not support it.

            • Draco T Bastard 1.1.1.1.1.1

              Just because tracking already occurs does not mean we should permit more extensive controls over the population.

              Generally speaking, I don’t think that private companies should be able to track you and that we should be stopping them from doing so. Admittedly difficult to do in this digital world as rules in one country don’t apply in another.

              There are of course ways around this such as barter, green dollars, ithaca monetary system.

              And that would be what was happening if people could be bothered putting up with the added expense. It’s not so we can be assured that people will happily move top the cashless system. In fact, around 70% of all transactions are now done in a cashless manner:

              “Approximately two-thirds of total spending in New Zealand is done electronically on eftpos and credit cards,” says Paul Whiston, spokesman for electronics payment provider Paymark.

              And I know damn well that many companies refuse to pay in cash.

              The simple fact of the matter is that we’re going to a cashless society whether we like it or not. The choice that we have is the shape of that system and whether it’s owned by the private corporations or by government. The best option is that it’s owned by government.

      • Blue Horseshoe 1.1.2

        Not a big picture guy by the use of the term “low end’, I guess

        Check out how much drug money Well Fargo got outed for laundering and then check if your statement aligns with whats happening outside the ‘home patch’

        And check this out…..

        When the ‘money’ is all digital 1’s and 0’s, you will have zero opportunity to prevent [name the entity] from simply taking what you incorrectly believed to be the ‘fruits of of labour’, or switching off the power to the servers.

        I believe mental exercise to be as important as physical exercise….

        • Draco T Bastard 1.1.2.1

          When the ‘money’ is all digital 1’s and 0’s, you will have zero opportunity to prevent [name the entity] from simply taking what you incorrectly believed to be the ‘fruits of of labour’, or switching off the power to the servers.

          That’s got to be one of the vaguest pieces of drivel that I’ve seen. Really, WTF are you talking about?

          • Blue Horseshoe 1.1.2.1.1

            If you can’t understand the fundamental concept of the statement then you have no business passing comment on the subject

            But by all means continue to express your blatant technical ignorance

            • Draco T Bastard 1.1.2.1.1.1

              You wrote a statement that holds no meaning and then blame others for not being able to understand it?

              Yeah, the dimwit happens to be you.

              • Blue Horseshoe

                Fair enough , it did come across in a shit way

                Most people have access to only two types ‘money’

                1. Paper cash
                2. Electronic (eftpos) and card payments

                If paper cash was gone and the servers hosting the ‘electronic cash’ were turned off (bank ‘shuts down’ or a ‘bail in’ occurs) then people have zero choice of the matter, and possibly no way to purchase a single unit of anything

                Paper money is currently the only mechanism which offsets 100% control over the ‘tool’ people are forced to use buy necessities of life

                It baffles me how there are those who believe removing cash from the system is somehow a sensible idea

                It is a foolish notion which will server only to lock in the death choke the financial banking industry has around the neck of the worlds populace

                • Draco T Bastard

                  If paper cash was gone and the servers hosting the ‘electronic cash’ were turned off (bank ‘shuts down’ or a ‘bail in’ occurs) then people have zero choice of the matter, and possibly no way to purchase a single unit of anything

                  Even now of the servers go down I suspect that the majority of people can’t buy anything because they’re not carrying cash and won’t be able to withdraw anything from the bank. Never mind that this isn’t something that will happen all the time and just simple turning it off would be a high order crime where the person/group who does it loses everything and goes to jail.

                  The threat that a private bank could make of shutting it down is also the one of the reasons why it must be done by the government with all of New Zealand money existing solely upon those servers.

                  Paper money is currently the only mechanism which offsets 100% control over the ‘tool’ people are forced to use buy necessities of life

                  That would be true if the majority of people were still using cash which they’re not.

                  It baffles me how there are those who believe removing cash from the system is somehow a sensible idea

                  Because it’s a much better system that uses less resources than a cash system. It comes with a few risks that will need to be taken into account but then so does the cash system the major one is that it helps to hide crime.

                  There’s also one other aspect that you’re not taking into account – 98% of the money in the system is already electronic. We need to put in place proper systems to regulate that whether we go to a cashless system or not and once we have done that then we may as well go to cashless just to get rid of the unnecessary expense of cash.

        • b waghorn 1.1.2.2

          Were is you’re house and can I come dig you’re garden as you obviously bury all you’re cash in tins I might get lucky.

          • Blue Horseshoe 1.1.2.2.1

            That’s not really the come back you were looking for either…

            Perhaps the term ‘bail in’ is not entered your inbox. While you’re looking at the definition of ‘bail in’ , see if you can place where the ‘OBR’ might be fit into the possible outcomes of not holding cash

            Oh, and Greece

            • b waghorn 1.1.2.2.1.1

              While I’m willing to learn off most people I really can’t be bothered with arrogant wind bags so please bail this into what ever shape you like and shove it in you’re OBR

      • Draco T Bastard 1.1.3

        It wouldn’t just be low end tax evasion but the high end stuff as well.

        • Blue Horseshoe 1.1.3.1

          Another live one here…

          Yes of course the controllers of the ‘cashless system’ would be all for trapping themselves

          FFS there are some dim wits around

          • Draco T Bastard 1.1.3.1.1

            If there are controllers of the economy then we need to find them and weed them out.

  2. Morrissey 2

    Assange: The Untold Story of an Epic Struggle for Justice
    by JOHNPILGER, 31 July 2015
    http://www.telesurtv.net/english/opinion/Assange-The-Untold-Story-of-an-Epic-Struggle-for-Justice-20150731-0003.html

    The siege of Knightsbridge is both an emblem of gross injustice and a gruelling farce. For three years, a police cordon around the Ecuadorean embassy in London has served no purpose other than to flaunt the power of the state. It has cost £12 million. The quarry is an Australian charged with no crime, a refugee whose only security is the room given him by a brave South American country. His “crime” is to have initiated a wave of truth-telling in an era of lies, cynicism and war.

    The persecution of Julian Assange is about to flare again as it enters a dangerous stage. From August 20, three quarters of the Swedish prosecutor’s case against Assange regarding sexual misconduct in 2010 will disappear as the statute of limitations expires. At the same time Washington’s obsession with Assange and WikiLeaks has intensified. Indeed, it is vindictive American power that offers the greatest threat – as Chelsea Manning and those still held in Guantanamo can attest.

    The Americans are pursuing Assange because WikiLeaks exposed their epic crimes in Afghanistan and Iraq: the wholesale killing of tens of thousands of civilians, which they covered up, and their contempt for sovereignty and international law, as demonstrated vividly in their leaked diplomatic cables. WikiLeaks continues to expose criminal activity by the US, having just published top secret US intercepts – US spies’ reports detailing private phone calls of the presidents of France and Germany, and other senior officials, relating to internal European political and economic affairs.

    None of this is illegal under the US Constiution. As a presidential candidate in 2008, Barack Obama, a professor of constitutional law, lauded whistleblowers as “part of a healthy democracy [and they] must be protected from reprisal”. In 2012, the campaign to re-elect President Barack Obama boasted on its website that he had prosecuted more whistleblowers in his first term than all other US presidents combined. Before Chelsea Manning had even received a trial, Obama had pronounced the whisletblower guilty. He was subsequently sentenced to 35 years in prison, having been tortured during his long pre-trial detention.

    Few doubt that should the US get their hands on Assange, a similar fate awaits him. Threats of the capture and assassination of Assange became the currency of the political extremes in the US following Vice-President Joe Biden’s preposterous slur that the WikiLeaks founder was a “cyber-terrorist”. Those doubting the degree of ruthlessness Assange can expect should remember the forcing down of the Bolivian president’s plane in 2013 – wrongly believed to be carrying Edward Snowden.

    According to documents released by Snowden, Assange is on a “Manhunt target list”. Washington’s bid to get him, say Australian diplomatic cables, is “unprecedented in scale and nature”. In Alexandria, Virginia, a secret grand jury has spent five years attempting to contrive a crime for which Assange can be prosecuted. This is not easy. The First Amendment to the US Constitution protects publishers, journalists and whistleblowers.

    Faced with this constitutional hurdle, the US Justice Department has contrived charges of “espionage”, “conspiracy to commit espionage”, “conversion” (theft of government property), “computer fraud and abuse” (computer hacking) and general “conspiracy”. The Espionage Act has life in prison and death penalty provisions. …..

    Read more….

    http://www.telesurtv.net/english/opinion/Assange-The-Untold-Story-of-an-Epic-Struggle-for-Justice-20150731-0003.html

    • AsleepWhileWalking 2.1

      The new trailer for “Snowden”, the movie.

    • greywarshark 2.2

      Thanks Morrissey for update on Assange. I wonder what they are doing to Ecuador?
      He wouldn’t want to go home, or come to NZ. We would barbecue him before you could say plumber.

    • Chooky 2.3

      +100 …thanks for that Morrissey….obviously trumped up sexual misconduct charges…Assange is the victim here

      …”Neither woman claimed she had been raped. Indeed, both have denied they were raped and one of them has since tweeted, “I have not been raped.” That they were manipulated by police and their wishes ignored is evident – whatever their lawyers might say now. Certainly, they are victims of a saga which blights the reputation of Sweden itself”…

      http://www.telesurtv.net/english/opinion/Assange-The-Untold-Story-of-an-Epic-Struggle-for-Justice-20150731-0003.html

  3. Paul 3

    Fran O’Sullivan says Groser should walk away from the TPP.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11490133

    Even John Roughan questions it.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11490099

    So apart from the our PM from Merrill Lynch, our ‘very clever’ ( but not very wise) Mr Groser, the narcissistic popinjay Hosking and our resident trolls who actually supports it?

    And more importantly, with no dairy concessions in sight, what possible reason do they have for supporting it?

  4. Lanthanide 4

    Google’s project Loon has some impressive tech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOndhtfIXSY
    Features NZ and vodafone.

    • Draco T Bastard 4.1

      I’m looking at that and thinking about how much more plastic will end up in the oceans. I really don’t think that this is a good idea.

      • Lanthanide 4.1.1

        A tiny tiny tiny fraction compared to whatever is there.

        Since they’re steerable, it seems like they would aim for them to come down on land, to recover the components and re-use them as well as avoid pollution.

    • Paul 5.1

      No surprises that the corporate media writes this, is there?

    • ianmac 5.2

      Claire Trevett? Surprised? Stephen Joyce is her mentor so spin, spin, spin. Trevette the new Jason Eade?

      • Per Nicky Hager’s book, Jason Ede was specifically hired on the taxpayer’s dime to run dirty politics from the ninth floor of the Beehive, including the subversion of the OIA process, unauthorised access of Labour Party systems, and ghostwriting attack posts for WhaleOil.

        Why cheapen the seriousness of his actions by comparing them to a journalist writing things you disagree with under her own name?

        • ianmac 5.2.1.1

          Oh OK Stephanie. My point was that the spin was mean and inaccurate just like some put out by some MPs. Eade? He escapes pinning regardless as his misdeeds lack criminal evidence. So?

    • Marvellous Bearded Git 5.3

      @realblue
      I think Steven Joyce wrote that and Trevett just signed it. It doesn’t even get Labour’s percentage vote at the election right.

  5. Jenny Kirk 6

    Note who has written the ODT item – ShonKey’s favourite journalist ! More MSM nonsense to draw attention away from the nasty doings of the Nats.

  6. Tracey 7

    so realestate.co.nz has released its own data on foreign interest. twyford makes some useful observations and reiterates the need for nz govt to collect accurate data.

    the website says asking prices dipped in auckland but failed to point out the high percentage of auck properties are listed for auction with no asking or list price.

    • Molly 7.1

      Been reluctant to relate this story, as it is only hearsay – but perhaps someone here would know how to determine how to get factual evidence.

      My sister has a real estate friend based in Horowhenua, who attended the Harcourts internal awards last year. The top selling agent was based in East Auckland. Her client base – all overseas nationals – and she acts almost as a bank trader as they continue to buy and sell as if houses are commodities or shares. Her commission is around $200,000 a month which indicates the level of trading that is going on. (The anecdote actually said this is her weekly earnings, but that sounds too unbelievable).

      Although, they regularly comment – real estate agencies are the least willing to provide good data on the issue of overseas ownership of residential properties. Their reward and profitability system is geared towards continuation of the same. In fact, it is tipped towards increasing the purchase price of housing – however that occurs.

      If anyone knows a legitimate and public way to get the sales and purchase details of the top selling residential agents of each company, that would give the public a reasonable idea of the extent of the issue.

    • ianmac 8.1

      So Macro. A very busy buzzy bee called Tim buzzing furiously but not going anywhere. How sad.

  7. The Chairman 9

    Non-vaccinated nurses from Waikato Hospital were sent home after refusing to comply with new flu policy

    Read more: http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/unvaccinated-nurses-sent-home-from-waikato-dhb-2015080108#ixzz3hVVtLfu9

    • weka 9.1

      Glad to see the various unions stepping up on that.

      • The Chairman 9.1.1

        Indeed.

      • northshore 9.1.2

        Good to see the DHB taking patient and staff safety seriously.

        • weka 9.1.2.1

          Not really. This doesn’t make for good medical or health care,

          However the Nurses Organisation believes while vaccinations are a good idea, the Waikato DHB had gone too far.

          The Public Service Association and the Association of Salaried Medical Specialists also raise concerns over the new policy not allowing employers to listen to their staff, and ‘shaming’ of staff, NZ Herald reports.

          • northshore 9.1.2.1.1

            Health workers who don’t have a flu vaccination are expected to either get vaccinated or wear a face mask as part of new policy.

            Makes very good sense most especially during influenza season.

            • weka 9.1.2.1.1.1

              That’s not what the article or this discussion is about though.

              • northshoredoc

                That’s exactly what it’s about, the DHB in question taking patient safety seriously.

                There is very little difference between requiring workers in other industries to take safety precautions. Would there have been the same out cry for example if a nurse of doctor was censured for not washing her/his hands between patients ?

                • weka

                  The article is about what happened to the workers. It’s unclear what actually happened on the ward, but it seems clear that the situation wasn’t handled well by the DHB. That’s a concern, because bullying begets horizontal and lateral abuse, and you definitely don’t want that in the culture of an organisation that is looking after vulnerable people. If the DHB can’t introduce a new policy by getting its staff on board in a good way, then it’s not doing its job properly.

                  Has anyone in the article or this thread said that staff shouldn’t be taking safety precautions? Red herring there doc.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Cochrane Collaboration Review 2014

                    Study characteristics

                    The evidence is current to May 2013. In this update, 90 reports of 116 studies compared the effect of influenza vaccine with placebo or no intervention. Sixty-nine reports were clinical trials (over 70,000 people), 27 were comparative cohort studies (about eight million people) and 20 were case-control studies (nearly 25,000 people). Of the 116 studies, 23 (three case-control and 20 cohort studies) were performed during pregnancy (about 1.6 million mother-child couples).

                    Key results

                    The preventive effect of parenteral inactivated influenza vaccine on healthy adults is small: at least 40 people would need vaccination to avoid one ILI case (95% confidence interval (CI) 26 to 128) and 71 people would need vaccination to prevent one case of influenza (95% CI 64 to 80). Vaccination shows no appreciable effect on working days lost or hospitalisation.

                    http://www.cochrane.org/CD001269/ARI_vaccines-to-prevent-influenza-in-healthy-adults

                    UK Flu vaccination 97% ineffective

                    And it appears that authorities knew that this was likely many months ago but didn’t tell the public. Talk about unnecessarily eroding trust in vaccination.

                    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/new-winter-flu-vaccine-given-to-millions-barely-works-according-to-public-health-officials-10027186.html

                    • northshoredoc

                      I don’t know why you trot this out every time.

                      Can you not see there is a difference in vaccination amongst a general population and a in hospital healthcare professional population ?

                      This is also the reason why PHARMAC only funds vaccination for a relatively small percent of the populace.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      is there clear evidence for flu vaccinations being more protective in hospital settings than in general settings?

                    • northshoredoc

                      CV yes… Multiple studies have demonstrated health benefits to patients, including reduced flu-related complications and reduced risk of death, with vaccination of HCP in long term care settings.

                      Why would DHBs be offering free vaccination to staff if there we’re no documented benefits ?

                      Also in relation to the article you link to from the independent you may or may not know that the influenza virus is a rather paid mutator which is why a ‘new vaccine’ is made available for each new flu season sometimes the influenza strains drift and make the vaccines less effective than is normally expected, the vaccine available in NZ is effective against the strains that are currently circulating in NZ.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Why would DHBs be offering free vaccination to staff if there we’re no documented benefits ?

                      Yes. Because it is ideological not scientific. In the UK here have been criticisms for years that the NHS is wasting hundreds of millions of pounds per year in flu vaccinations which cannot be justified by the benefits seen.

                    • northshoredoc

                      “Because it is ideological not scientific.”

                      Oh the irony !

            • Blue Horseshoe 9.1.2.1.1.2

              Influenza season…..

              LOL – Another live one

              • northshoredoc

                Do tell …

                • Blue Horseshoe

                  Let’s just say that I’m not much of a ‘good little consumer’, shall we

                  Many people are suckers for a marketing campaign slogan as can be witnessed in the litany of lies used to sell, pretty much any product or business type you could care to name

                  Myself, not so much

                  • northshoredoc

                    You appear to have cornered the market in tinfoil all to yourself.

                    • Blue Horseshoe

                      Nah that’s just a bullshit comeback by someone with no response to the obvious bullshit of the ‘flu season’ [slogan]

                      Seriously mate, take some time and think about what sits behind the slogan

                      Turning illness into a promotional sales tool akin to [name the season] is a preposterous, yet insightful example of the stupidity for what passes as ‘thought’

                    • northshoredoc

                      The reason we call it a flu season is that influenza is seasonal and the influenza strains tend to change from season to season.

                      It’s hardly a marketing slogan.

                      What term would you suggest is used if not “flu season”

                    • whateva next?

                      “What term would you suggest is used if not “flu season”..”
                      what about calling…um winter?

                    • northshoredoc

                      😆 Winter ?? You filthy marketing swine !

                    • greywarshark

                      northshore doc
                      Great finish.

        • The Chairman 9.1.2.2

          By any means, Northshore? There are claims of the DHB overstepping the line and perhaps acting illegally.

    • whateva next? 9.2

      Would love to see some empirical evidence that flu vaccines are effective, even at a bsiac level do they reduce sick leave? Anecdotally, I see alot of sick leave taken by people who have had the vaccine. Doubt I will ever get an answer to that one, and wonder if the amount of money spent on vaccines could be put into “helping our patients” in a more tangible way? It certainly helps pharmaceutical companies.

      • northshore 9.2.1

        The most recent data suggests that immunising health care workers reduces all cause death of taints by around 29% (this is disputed as it appears to large an effect) – while the influenza vaccine is not nearly as effective as many other vaccines anything that reduces the risk to patients in the hospital or elderly care setting is valuable.

        People seem to be looking past the fact that the DHB in question also does not require vaccination

        “Health workers who don’t have a flu vaccination are expected to either get vaccinated or wear a face mask as part of new policy.’

        • weka 9.2.1.1

          Reading between the lines, that says to me that the value of vaccinating against influenza in this situation is theorised but not actually known.

          And that you are willing to reduce core principles of worker rights in order to promote that theoretical advantage.

          To me it looks ideological rather than evidence based.

          “People seem to be looking past the fact that the DHB in question also does not require vaccination”

          I’m betting there are signficant issues with workers being required to wear face masks, which is probably part of the issue not explained in the article. I’m surprised as a doctor you wouldn’t be aware of those things.

          • northshoredoc 9.2.1.1.1

            They are not, I repeat not, forcing vaccination. If the personnel in question don’t want to be vaccinated they can wear a facemark when interacting with patients.

            Seriously…”I’m betting there are signficant issues with workers being required to wear face masks, which is probably part of the issue not explained in the article.”

            Like what ?

            Would these issues be any worse than being required to wear a clean uniform, gloves, wash one’s hands in between patients.

            • Ergo Robertina 9.2.1.1.1.1

              DHB staff flu jab cover increased from 45% to 61% from 2010 to 2014. Has there been a commensurate reduction in sick leave in DHBs in that time?

              • northshoredoc

                You tell me and while you’re at it correct for all the confounding factors ….

                • Ergo Robertina

                  I don’t know, but I guess DHBs would trumpet any significant reduction if one existed, since they’re always trying to increase uptake, internally as well as externally.
                  What would be confounding factors? Staff taking time off work to care for sick children? I would still expect an overall reduction given that a lot of healthcare workers do not have young children.

            • weka 9.2.1.1.1.2

              “They are not, I repeat not, forcing vaccination.”

              and I have not, I repeat not, said anything about forced vaccinations. Why are you again bringing in strawmen?

              Seriously…”I’m betting there are signficant issues with workers being required to wear face masks, which is probably part of the issue not explained in the article.”

              Like what ?

              Would these issues be any worse than being required to wear a clean uniform, gloves, wash one’s hands in between patients.

              I think you should talk to the staff concerned, or staff in similar situations. If you can’t tell the difference between wearing gloves and a face mask I suggest you wear a face mask for the next full day you do as a GP. Don’t take it off. Take notes about what happens, it will be enlightening.

              I’ll just say again, we don’t know what actually happened, so it’s useless to base reasoning on that unknowing. I however trust the various unions involved when they say that there were worker rights issues and it makes sense to me that this wasn’t about worker compliance in the way you are inferring but about the way that the DHB introduced the policy (yes, that’s a guess).

        • Kevin 9.2.1.2

          What percentage of people who get vaccinated have adverse side effects?

          Also is the vaccine effective against new strains or mutations of old strains?

          BTW I’m all for elderly and such getting vaccinated as it’s better than nothing.

      • weka 9.2.2

        I’d also like to see some good data and analysis on how the Waikato policy is useful in practice (I understand the theory, which has some holes in it related to different strains of flu and the limitations of the flu vaccines).

        • northshoredoc 9.2.2.1

          I’d like to understand why you object to this policy ?

          • weka 9.2.2.1.1

            what makes you think I object to the policy? Genuine question.

            • northshoredoc 9.2.2.1.1.1

              I must have taken the wrong meaning from both your comment and previous commentary on vaccination.

              Can you confirm that you don’t have an issue with the DHB policy over and above the potential for “management bullying’ on this policy……of which there appears to be little evidence outside of this newspaper article.

              • Colonial Viper

                That DHB policy is only valid if the evidence is very clear that practitioners getting the flu vaccination is highly protective of patients health.

                No such clarity in the evidence exists, as far as I know.

                Otherwise the DHB is simply pressuring individuals to accept medical treatment by threatening their livelihoods. Under such circumstances no true consent to treatment is possible.

                • northshoredoc

                  CV suggest you have a chat to an infectious control nurse/physician at your local DHB as you don’t seem to believe any of the evidence on the internet.

                  Once again no one is being pressured to vaccinate they have the choice to not vaccinate and wear a face mask.

                  Why does it have to be highly protective ? ……surely even minimally or moderately protective is worthwhile ?

                • McFlock

                  Why only the patient’s health?

                  OSH clearly says that employees have responsibilities for their own health and safety, too.

                  • Ergo Robertina

                    It is about the patients’ health in the health care setting. At least, that was the DHB’s chief executive Nigel Murray main justification for this move when he stressed the supposed risk to patients:
                    http://www.waikatodhbnewsroom.co.nz/2015/05/19/why-not-vaccinate-or-mask-up/

                    • weka

                      I find that article a bit creepy tbh. Quoting the HDC code of rights as justificiation for a policy that isn’t even backed up by good science in his own argument. Plus, the illogics.

                    • Ergo Robertina

                      Yep – it’s manipulative to cite the patient rights’ code.
                      Thing is though to justify this draconian imposition on staff they need to portray it as a patient safety measure. It’s not like employees’ health and safety can be cited, as McFlock seemed to be suggesting.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      I want to know if that entire DHB executive team is willing to get in front of the cameras and take the jab themselves. If not, they can suspend themselves.

                  • weka

                    “OSH clearly says that employees have responsibilities for their own health and safety, too.”

                    Good, then supporting staff who choose not to vaccinate should be happening.

                    • McFlock

                      In exactly the same way staff who choose to not wear earmuffs or other protective equipment are “supported”.

                    • weka

                      Some people choose to not have a flu vaccination for health reasons, and protect their health in other ways. What would be a health reason for not wearing ear muffs?

                    • McFlock

                      “other ways”. Like face masks.

                      Maybe they sweat a lot and reckon that with the earmufs cause rashes. Apparently it doesn’t really matter if the health “reason” is vague enough, rather than being a legitimate contraindication.

                    • weka

                      only in your mind. And protecting one’s health is not limited to offically sanctioned contraindications thankfully.

                      and no, I didn’t mean masks. Masks are there to protect the patients.

                    • McFlock

                      lol

                      So “only in your mind” is insufficient for a valid opinion, but so is “officially sanctioned” via a demonstrable evidence base.

                      Goodnight.

              • weka

                I’d need to see the explicit policy to have an opinion on it.

              • weka

                “I must have taken the wrong meaning from both your comment and previous commentary on vaccination.”

                You must have missed the comment where I pointed out that I don’t fit into the dualistic argument that you frame vaccination in.

                • northshoredoc

                  “You must have missed the comment where I pointed out that I don’t fit into the dualistic argument that you frame vaccination in.”

                  🙄 at times weka you are so wet your are positively supersaturated.

                  • weka

                    lolz. It’s a valid comment from me though. Why would you assume I am against the Waikato DHB policy unless you already believe I fit into a box (probably with a label of anti-vax on it)? Do you understand the difference between taking an ideological stance (vaccination is always good therefore the policy must be good, or the converse), and me wanting to understand something before I form an opinion? Not least because the debates would be more productive and IMO more interesting.

    • whateva next? 9.3

      Would love to see some empirical evidence that flu vaccines are effective, even at a basic level do they reduce sick leave? Anecdotally, I see alot of sick leave taken by people who have had the vaccine. Doubt I will ever get an answer to that one, and wonder if the amount of money spent on vaccines could be put into “helping our patients” in a more tangible way? It certainly helps pharmaceutical companies.

      • Colonial Viper 9.3.1

        Have a read of this in the BMJ (British Medical Journal)

        What use is mass flu vaccination?

        http://www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g6182

        • whateva next? 9.3.1.1

          Appreciate the link CV, what a relief to see others are daring to question the nazi like regime to get staff vaccinated, if only the same energy/money were applied to other aspects of nursing/medical practice.
          I see it is dated last year, so obviously no immediate impact! Hearing that staff are suspended is a huge step in the wrong direction, and luckily don’t work for that DHB………

        • northshoredoc 9.3.1.2

          The DHB is not proposing mass vaccination for influenza, neither is the MoH,, you are raising a straw man.

        • northshoredoc 9.3.1.3

          While there are various responses to Dr McCartney from all and sundry, including one that suggests influenza is not an infectious disease (give me strength)

          …the response below from a medic at the WHO is perhaps the most representative.

          http://www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g6182/rr/778898

          • gsays 9.3.1.3.1

            hi nsd, i am curious as to whether you had an opinion on our local hospital (palmy) removing all drinks with sugar in them.
            i understand that they have been replaced with the artificially sweetened versions.

            • northshoredoc 9.3.1.3.1.1

              Probably a local public health initiative with the DHB/hospital wanting to be seen to be leading the way.

              I bet the staff are still having sugar in their coffee/tea ! not too mention their orange juice ..

              • gsays

                this is where i have an issue.
                to me a health initiative that replaces sugar with aspartame/nutrasweet is a contradiction in terms.

                • northshoredoc

                  You won’t get an argument from me on that one.

                • Paul

                  This is a great song warning about the dangers of aspartame.

                  • gsays

                    very good, paul.

                    i had a few epiphanies a coupla years back and one that stayed with me was executives from monsanto having a sabbatical at the …fda!

                    at that time aspartame entered the food system.

                    i like to ask anyone sucking on a diet product if they enjoy their accumulative neuro toxin.

  8. Ad 10

    Anyone from here at the New Zealand First Conference this weekend?

    Would be good to hear the vibe.

  9. Clemgeopin 11

    Winston Peters makes some interesting points here :

    “The Opposition bloc lost “the unloseable election.”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/70728843/hes-70-but-winston-peters-has-no-plans-to-retire

    • weka 11.1

      Does that mean NZ First is finally swaying towards an alignment with National? “How would NZ First voters and people backing us now regard such an act? It would be an act of enormous treachery. They have voted for us to get change and we intend to deliver it. At this point.”

      lolznui. He’s such a snake in the grass. Blames the Greens for the left losing the last election as if his antipathy towards being in govt with the GP had nothing to do with Labour not being clear about how it would form a govt. It’s a weird argument, because it’s not like GP voters are going to vote NZF or even Labour instead, so I can only assume he prefers to be in opposition than in a govt that includes the GP. Which would be consistent with his macho politics historically.

      • Clemgeopin 11.1.1

        I agree with him that the Greens overreached by making too many outrageous demands and scared the potential voters from National and the undecided. I firmly hold that view and I had made similar comments straight after the election. I am sure many people were annoyed and dismayed by the Greens’ pre election unnecessary and harmful dumbarse tactics. I was.

        Of course, that was not the only reason that the left block lost. There were other reasons too.

        Hopefully, wiser heads and better strategy will prevail in 2017.

        • weka 11.1.1.1

          Pretty sure that the GP actions were a result of Labour earlier in the year having rejected working together to present a cohesive front. And that was because Labour were hedging their bets on NZF, which is a direct result of Peters playing power and control bullshit games with the electorate. I can’t wait until he is gone from the political scene. For all the good he has done in individual issues, he’s had a huge negative influence on democracy in NZ.

          • Clemgeopin 11.1.1.1.1

            Politics is not just about ideology and impossible dreams, but also about pragmatism and clever tactics to win the voters to our side to change the government to make steady changes.

            • weka 11.1.1.1.1.1

              Indeed, and the GP have the best policy laid out in practical terms of any party currently in govt.

              I think it’s reasonable to assume that Labour lost votes to NZF at a time when the GP held its own. It’s not the GP that did badly at the last election.

              • Sabine

                Peter Fuckn Dunne.

                i rest my case,

                and yes Labour did not help itself, and NZ First did not help itself.

                But it is also a fact that the Greens alone will not govern.

                So they either play ball with Labour/NZFirst, or National ….

                It is about time that Green Party Members do some soulsearching, as many of the Labour Members have had to do since the election. That the Members of both Parties get over their cooties re Winston Peters, and that they work together, campaing together, and maybe have a shot at winning.

                But then, the Greens could also just say, fuck the left, we go with National.

                Their choice really.

                • weka

                  Your comment makes no sense and just perpetuates myths about the GP that amount to lies in someone as politically aware as yourself.

                  1. the GP membership have already rejected forming govt with National, multiple times in a number of ways.

                  2. the GP approached Labour earlier last year to see if it wanted to present a united front going into the election. Labour turned that down.

                  3. the GP has already worked together with NZF a number of times, and openly says it is willing to do that more. The GP’s entire kaupapa is based on cooperation. It’s not the GP running round slagging off NZF. It’s Peters that has the problem with co-operation not the GP, and it’s Peters that routinely puts down the GP and tries to damage them via public statements.

                  None of that means the GP is perfect, but they do learn from their mistakes. What you are presenting is just plain false.

                  • Sabine

                    http://data.nzherald.co.nz/electorates/ohariu

                    Have a good look at the Candidate Vote, and tell me that the National Voters did not hold their nose and voted P.f.D.
                    And now tell me why the Greens could not do the same for Labour (and frankly I would ask the voters of the Labour candidate the same if the Green Candidate would have been the one to pull of the win with the appropriate support?)

                    The Party Vote would have still gone to Natinal, but P.f.D would now be sitting home counting beans instead of fucking around in parliament.

                    so there…..

                    a. The Greens will go nowhere with their 10 – 15 % unless they side with one of the larger parties.

                    b. The Greens can side with Labour or with National or try to get 30% + of the vote.

                    c. I personally would like the Green, The Labour Party and National First to work together, as I have no issues with NZ First, but there seem to be a lot of people that seem to have an issue, and quite a few of those seem to come from the Greens.

                    But to say that the greens will not side with National? They sided with National on a cycleway that the poor of this country will never use, that the hungry of this country will never use, and that the homeless of this country will never use. That was 330 million dollar that needed not be spend, until we could at least fund the ‘feed the kids bill’, but I guess a feel good victory is still a victory.

                    • weka

                      Myself, I’m in favour of concessions and have long argued for them. However I’ve also seen the argument that if the GP didn’t stand someone in Ōhāriu then National would choose not to as well and Dunne would still win. The reality is that the right wing vote outstrips the leftwing vote in that electorate no matter what you do.

                      I don’t think there is any way to know how many voters chose Dunne over the National candidate from strategic voting and how many just prefer Dunne. There are often big discrepancies between electorate and party votes where you have a high profile MP.

                      You can’t expect people to vote strategically unless they have those skills and knowledge. I think most voters simply aren’t paying attention at the level you suggest.

                      a. The Greens will go nowhere with their 10 – 15 % unless they side with one of the larger parties.

                      The GP can’t side with National, and they tried to side with Labour but Labour rejected that. FIFY (and please stop with the lies about National and the GP).

                      Further, the GP have already achieved much in parliament despite never being in govt. The GP want change not power alone.

                      b. The Greens can side with Labour or with National or try to get 30% + of the vote.

                      Given that the GP already side with Labour and Labour don’t want them, what do you suggest?

                      c. I personally would like the Green, The Labour Party and National First to work together, as I have no issues with NZ First, but there seem to be a lot of people that seem to have an issue, and quite a few of those seem to come from the Greens.

                      I also have no problem with NZF. I do have a problem with Peters, who is anti-democracy as well as being anti GP. Please link to 3 pieces of supporting evidence that the Green Party has an issue with NZF (and that doesn’t include people like me posting our own opinions).

                      But to say that the greens will not side with National? They sided with National on a cycleway that the poor of this country will never use, that the hungry of this country will never use, and that the homeless of this country will never use. That was 330 million dollar that needed not be spend, until we could at least fund the ‘feed the kids bill’, but I guess a feel good victory is still a victory.

                      Oh fuck off. You were talking about the GP supporting National to form govt and you know it. You even said it explicitly above,

                      But it is also a fact that the Greens alone will not govern.

                      So they either play ball with Labour/NZFirst, or National ….

                      If you don’t understand the GP poition on that, please stop commenting until you have educated yourself. If you do understand, please stop telling lies.

              • Clemgeopin

                Not quite right, and that simple, but never mind.

    • b waghorn 11.2

      He gives the greens a slapping ,which makes one think labour has to be in 40% territory if we hope to see the back of key in 2017. As a three way is highly unlikely.

    • millsy 11.3

      National was always going to win this one. The real prizes were the pecking order of the opposition. David Cunliffe should have waited this one out, and let the ABC’s sleepwalk to defeat, but he was too impatient. Now he will never be PM, and probably wont even be a cabinet minister.

  10. oh dear

    Figures released by website realestate.co.nz reveal about five per cent of all online traffic viewing Auckland property between January and April were primary speakers of an East Asian language.

    Of that five per cent, only 2.8 per cent originated from outside New Zealand meaning almost half were viewing from within the country.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/70737690/real-estate-website-data-debunks-chinese-buyer-claims

    • weka 12.1

      I don’t think that is going to reassure people 😉

      “However, with around five per cent of our visitors indicating fluency in an East Asian language, while only 2.8 per cent of offshore traffic originates from East Asian countries, it is clear that a large number of these Asian language speakers are actually located in New Zealand.”

    • Galeandra 12.2

      Oh dear.

      David Hood explains about increasing levels of ‘magic money’ infused into the nz housing economy: “Is all the magic money offshore capital? We just don’t know. There is a lack of evidence of it coming from other parts inside the New Zealand economy, and given the hundreds of billions of dollars, a local source would be somewhat obvious. We also know that in other countries, with more internal housing markets, household debt does not just match the pattern of house value, the amounts add up to the same in gains. In New Zealand there is a 300 billion shortfall. ”

      http://publicaddress.net/speaker/house-prices-and-the-magic-money/

  11. Draco T Bastard 14

    TPP Misinformation and TVNZ Journalism: Dumb & Dumber meets What we do in the Shadows?

    New Zealand is a tiny nation, and while we may not be a backwater, in the scheme of things we are nothing. We have no sway over this process. We have no say on the outcome. We have zero negotiation capability. We are screwed. We get to say “yes” or “no”.

    If we say no we won’t be screwed, we already have trading arrangements with China, Asia, Europe, Africa, and South America, most of which are locked out of the TPP. Thanks to Helen Clark, swallow that down Mike, we are in a pretty good trading position. It’s only been since we started buddying up to the U.S. in the past few years that we’ve started to suffer.

    Couldn’t have said it better myself. In the TPP NZ is being dictated to and we will be worse off because of it.

  12. Draco T Bastard 15

    This is what happens when the country is so free to do business in:

    She researched online, found what seemed a reputable New Zealand-owned and operated site, Pro1Digital, and in April paid $3080 with her credit card.

    But after a couple of e-mails promising delivery “next week”, the website shut down in May, the firm went into liquidation and its director, Roy Li, apparently moved to Hong Kong.

    And then he apparently moved back and opened up another online store:

    But what most upsets Cvetkov is that Li appears to be back trading freely online with a new domain name, sinotech.co.nz. He did not respond to email requests for comment.

    Roy Li is named on the Domain Name Commission registry as the registrant of both sinotech.co.nz and pro1digital.co.nz, but the former lists only a Hong Kong address, while the latter includes one in Auckland. A habitation index search showed Roy Li does not live there.

    I think that it’s time that NZ stopped being one of the easiest places to do business in because we’re being taken to the cleaners by the corrupt and we don’t seem to be able to do anything about it.

  13. Morrissey 16

    We get Janet Wilson and Michelle Boag on TV every week;
    How come smart and decent women are hardly ever on the media?

    All over the world, women are massively under-represented in media commentary. Sadly, even when they do appear, they are, due to deliberate choices by a small clique of programme editors, overwhelmingly substandard, ranging from the incompetent (Christine Rankin and Denise L’Estrange-Corbet), the nasty but dim (Kirsty Wark and Zeina Badawi at the BBC, Denise L’Estrange-Corbet and Pebbles Hooper in New Zealand), the deranged (Ann Coulter, Pamela Geller), the smug (Deborah Hill Cone, Kerre McIvor) and the depraved (Dame Lesley Max, Melanie Phillips).

    Smart and brilliant women like Arundhati Roy, on the other hand, are systematically excluded….

    Debunking the Gandhi Myth: Arundhati Roy

  14. Draco T Bastard 17

    This is why our police officers need to have cameras on them at all times:

    Tensing asked Dubose for his license, which had been suspended in January, according to the Ohio Department of Motor Vehicles. Dubose resisted providing his license or exiting his vehicle, and an altercation took place. Tensing claims his arm got stuck in the steering wheel and that Dubose began driving forward, dragging him. At that point, Tensing says, he shot Dubose once in the head. Tensing adds that he then fell to the ground, sustaining mild injuries. The car rolled for another block, then crashed.

    But Tensing’s body camera footage shows a far different scenario. In the video, Tensing does repeatedly asks Dubose for his license, which Dubose says he doesn’t have. But instead of getting belligerent, Dubose is apologetic.

    “I just don’t,” he tells Tensing. “I’m sorry sir. I was just going to go in the house.” Dubose then tells Tensing he lives right around the corner. “I didn’t even do nothing,” Dubose says as Tensing begins to pull his car door open.

    They would be his last words. Dubose grabs the door car door with one hand and starts his car with the other. A second later, Tensing shoots him in the head. Dubose, dead instantly, is no longer holding down the brake and the car begins rolling forward. Tensing, still on his feet, chases the car with his gun drawn.

    Especially relevant now that our police are permanently armed.

    • millsy 17.1

      The criminals should be scared of the police and not the innocent, but around the world the opposite is happening.

    • marty mars 17.2

      Very good – that article puts a bloody good case for the body cameras. I was on the fence with that one but I can see the merits now. Thanks Draco.

  15. Morrissey 18

    Jon Stewart tries to talk rationally to a loudmouthed pub bore:
    “It saddens me to see you wasting your time.”

    Trying to talk sense to Bill O’Reilly is like batting your head against a brick wall. “There is a selective outrage machine at Fox,” says Stewart. “You have to be consistent with your outrage.”

    O’Reilly, though, is impervious to anything resembling common sense or reason. Watch this, and weep for America….

  16. adam 19

    If it all gets a bit much – Remember to laugh. Here is Lewis Black and friends recently doing some political comedy. The wonderful Dick Gregory is the first one up, and if you have not seen him before, you are in for a treat.

    Because laughing at them – gives you the power!

  17. Sabine 20

    too Weka…. sorry i can’t reply directly as I would like too….No reply button?

    Sabine:
    a. The Greens will go nowhere with their 10 – 15 % unless they side with one of the larger parties.

    Weka:
    The GP can’t side with National, and they tried to side with Labour but Labour rejected that. FIFY (and please stop with the lies about National and the GP).

    Further, the GP have already achieved much in parliament despite never being in govt. The GP want change not power alone.

    Sabine:
    I am not lying here, I am stating the obvious. The Greens alone with the current % they have can not go it alone. They can pick and choose legislation from other Parties they would like to support i.e. Bicyle Ways – National, Feed the Kids – Mana, or they can pitch their legislation to be supported by others …re the national cycle way

    that is not lying, that is day to day business – and frankly without cross bench understanding nothing would get done.
    ——————————————————————————————————————–
    Sabine:
    b. The Greens can side with Labour or with National or try to get 30% + of the vote.

    Weka:
    Given that the GP already side with Labour and Labour don’t want them, what do you suggest?

    Sabine: I don’t see the GP side anymore with Labour that Labour side with the GP – i see them bickering about fine print that only hurts this country, and i think that both parties have to bury their hurt FeeFees and get on with it. Not for themselves but for the country, and I have told this to my Labour Representative in the same words and will do so again and again and again until they grow a brain.
    I have yet to meet the Green Candidate for Te Atatu South.

    ———————————————————————————————————————–
    Sabine:
    c. I personally would like the Green, The Labour Party and National First to work together, as I have no issues with NZ First, but there seem to be a lot of people that seem to have an issue, and quite a few of those seem to come from the Greens.

    Weka:
    I also have no problem with NZF. I do have a problem with Peters, who is anti-democracy as well as being anti GP. Please link to 3 pieces of supporting evidence that the Green Party has an issue with NZF (and that doesn’t include people like me posting our own opinions).

    Sabine:
    I have only lived in this Country since 1998, and never understood the Winston hate. He is a Politician, and he does not belong to any party than his own, and he will only promote his own party, the same as does Labour and/or the Greens. I see virtually no difference between the people other then their policies. And in many cases the policies should help for understanding. Again, I wish all of them would bury their hurt FeeFees and grow a brain and get on with it, not for themselves but the better of the country.
    And I don’t have to link to anything, as I did not say the Green Party, but the Members of the Green Party like yourself that seem to think that Winston Peters is anti GP and anti Democracy.
    I did state upthread, that once we are in the voting booth, we are on our own regardless of party affiliation, and we can vote for ourselves, for our parties, or for our country.
    ————————————————————————————————————————
    Sabine:
    But to say that the greens will not side with National? They sided with National on a cycleway that the poor of this country will never use, that the hungry of this country will never use, and that the homeless of this country will never use. That was 330 million dollar that needed not be spend, until we could at least fund the ‘feed the kids bill’, but I guess a feel good victory is still a victory.

    Wet:
    Oh fuck off. You were talking about the GP supporting National to form govt and you know it. You even said it explicitly above,

    Sabine:
    Despite your lovely suggestion i will not fuck off, its too early for it.
    I am not speaking of the GP forming a government with National, i am talking about supporting the National government and calling success / victory while getting nothing in return.
    So yes, i’d rather the GP would have not supported national on the great cycle way of epic proportions, but rather said that if we can’t feed the kids cause we are too poor, than we can’t have a cycle way that will not be used by most of NZ cause too far away, too poor, too hungry and too homeless.
    So don’t put words in my mouth that i have not spoken.
    ——————————————————————————————————————–
    Sabine:
    But it is also a fact that the Greens alone will not govern.

    So they either play ball with Labour/NZFirst, or National ….

    Weta:
    If you don’t understand the GP poition on that, please stop commenting until you have educated yourself. If you do understand, please stop telling lies.

    Sabine:
    Clearly, now you are just trying to be insulting. I have not said any lies.
    I have mentioned what has happened, i have posted a link for you to check and come back with. I have spoken about my impressions and my perception.

    And i stand with what I said, unless the GP has the 40%+ in election on their own, they will have to form a government with the Party that wins the high numbers if they want to be in Government. At any time this can be Labour or National, in absence of a third Party that could garner the votes. Or they can form a Government with several of the smaller Parties, including NZ First.

    This has nothing to do with the GP position of the day, this has anything to do with what is possible. Again, no lies here, just options. And the GP will decide for themselves what they want to do and with whom.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    However, being a German I have seen the German GP actually fracture in the “The Fundies” and the “Realos – or realistic GP”, so I know that what is today might not be tomorrow.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundi_(politics)

    So to end, i would hope that you understand that I am talking only about my perception, from my understanding and political upbringing, infused with a large dose of cynicism and a distinct lack of romanticism.

    • weka 20.1

      “At any time this can be Labour or National, in absence of a third Party that could garner the votes.”

      To cut this short, you simply have no idea what you are talking about. The GP cannot support the formation of a National govt in the way you are implying. There are specific internal processes that prevent that, that were created by the membership. The only real world viable option is Labour and whoever else Labour do deals with.

      Confusing govt formation with policy work doesn’t help (and to be fair the GP itself isn’t great on communicating this). They’re separate things. The GP will work with any party where there is policy in common. They have demonstrated this with multiple parties, including NZF.

      “And I don’t have to link to anything, as I did not say the Green Party, but the Members of the Green Party like yourself that seem to think that Winston Peters is anti GP and anti Democracy.”

      Good, so you accept that the Green Party itself has no problem with NZF and promotes a cooperative relationship with them. As for myself, my views on Peters has nothing to do with my GP membership, so I’d appreciate it if you stopped conflating the two.

      I think a lot of what you are saying about the GP is misleading and based on not understanding what they actually do. I’m going to link to the remit that established who the party could enter into govt with, but please bear in mind that my tolerance for the myths perpetuated about the GP is pretty low now.

      Time for the Greens to transcend left vs. right.

      Open mike 12/09/2014

      • weka 20.1.1

        “I am not speaking of the GP forming a government with National, i am talking about supporting the National government and calling success / victory while getting nothing in return.”

        Please give a couple of examples of the GP supporting the National govt. I don’t see it myself.

  18. Gangnam Style 21

    Trump the movie, has been unseen for 25 years, now you can see it, great insight into scumbag capitalism! http://trumpthemovie.com/watch/

  19. ropata 22

    He campaigns all week, has the lowest expenses of any MP, and takes the night bus home: @jeremycorbyn @Corbyn4Leader pic.twitter.com/QJlGHihTjQ— Dr Katy Shaw (@DrKatyShaw) July 31, 2015

  20. greywarshark 23

    Are we getting a weekend social post this week. It all seems rather flat now that TPP isn’t around to goad us and rile us. It has been on my mind for most of this week. Hope RIP, with on the tombstone Saved from National Hell. NZ would have entered in haste and repented at leisure.

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