Open mike 01/09/2015

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 1st, 2015 - 183 comments
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183 comments on “Open mike 01/09/2015 ”

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  1. Paul 1
    1 September 2015 at 6:42 am

    The All Blacks being used by Key and his right wing propaganda machine to promote a flag change.
    Is this what Rome felt like during the days of Commodus?

    Bread and circuses.

    The Circus Maximus.
    Eden Park.

    Gladiators.
    The All Blacks.

    Both used by a corrupt regime to prop up its power.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11505765

  2. Morrissey 2
    1 September 2015 at 7:02 am

    “You’re going to have to do a lot better than THAT, mate!”
    A hapless Stephen Franks comes unstuck on The Panel
    Radio NZ National, Monday 31 August 2015
    Jim Mora, Stephen Franks, Chris Gallavin

    Today was not the first time that Chris Gallavin and Stephen Franks have appeared together on this programme. Back in January, Gallavin made some crass and poorly considered remarks about the Charlie Hebdo murders: “One man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist! Oh, I don’t know WHAT’S happening Jim, quite frankly!”

    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-26012015/#comment-957243

    So quite possibly Franks was under the impression that Gallavin was a typical Panel guest, and would not interrupt or demur when he got into whatever frothing lecture he had planned for today. If that’s what Franks had thought, he made a very bad mistake. Gallavin is not as flippant or as shallow as his remarks on January 26 might have suggested; in fact, as Franks was about to find out, he has a sharp mind, and is not prepared to suffer a fool.

    I tuned in half-way through, just in time to hear Chris Gallavin, who is a law professor, explain eloquently and succinctly why it may be a good idea for local governments to spend some money taking expert advice on whether or not to set up research centers. Foolishly, instead of remaining silent because he had nothing intelligent to contribute on this matter, Sensible Sentencing Trust “legal counsel” and former ACT MP Stephen Franks (NOT a law professor) decided to condescend to someone obviously brighter and sharper….

    STEPHEN FRANKS: Chris put the case about as strongly as it can be put. Good advocacy Chris, but I think that a lot of these feasibility studies are written by experts in, in a ritual. Ummm, they… sort of… they’re prevalent wherever there’s money going, someone else’s money and it’s being thrown around on vague good intentions. It’s sort of, they’re the modern equivalent of paying for prayers and candles to light to the gods of the central government, to, errrrmmm….
    CHRIS GALLAVIN: You’re gonna have to come up with a better argument than that, Stephen! Ha ha ha ha ha!
    JIM MORA: Ha ha ha ha! HA HA!
    CHRIS GALLAVIN: You just praised me for a good argument; I’m not going to give it back to you. You’re going to have to do a lot better than THAT, mate! Ha ha ha ha ha!
    STEPHEN FRANKS: [uneasily] Weeeellll, no, I, I WAS thinking that if it had been me I would have defended the use of consultants…. [He bores on for an excruciating two minutes]….

    With those few words, Gallavin effortlessly, and devastatingly, showed he was a lot smarter than his adversary—and make no mistake, Franks is adversarial, in the worst way. In fact, he’s worse than adversarial, he’s reflexively contrarian and pompously self-righteous, and he gets nasty very quickly. In his regular appearances as a guest on Willie Jackson’s Eye To Eye program on TVNZ, Franks would team up with the notoriously anti-Māori Canterbury University pamphleteer David Round to make inflammatory comments and reduce the discussion to a farce.

    When Franks is confronted firmly, however, he seems to be incapable of arguing his corner. Last year Dita Di Boni challenged a number of his statements. Unaccustomed to contradiction, Franks lapsed into a resentful silence.

    Later, Franks embarked on one of his trademark wandery homilies, inarticulately but unmistakably praising the contribution of white immigrants to this country, and speaking sententiously about how “we” should not be ashamed to say “we” want to keep out “those who do not share our values.” Somehow, this rant ended up with him making the bizarre allegation that Japanese ski resort workers think New Zealanders are thieves, and extrapolating from that anecdote that New Zealanders tolerate theft, whereas the Japanese do not. Then he said that when he went overseas with a group from New Zealand some time ago, some of those in his party thought it was quite acceptable to shoplift. A few hours later, Seven Sharp viewers were regaled with pretty much the same thing Franks was saying, in an item about a skinhead group in Masterton called the “Right Wing Resistance”.

    Chris Gallavin was clearly appalled by what he had just been subjected to. He took Franks up on it in the same way as he no doubt has occasionally had to do when dealing with a particularly dim but recalcitrant law student. Gallavin politely but systematically demonstrated that Franks’s claim that New Zealanders are dishonest had no merit, and was therefore spurious.

    Mercifully, Mora helped out Franks by moving on to the next topic. Franks, however, was obviously still brooding on this ten minutes later as the program came to a finish….

    JIM MORA: Chris Gallavin, thank you very much!
    CHRIS GALLAVIN: Thanks Jim! And thanks, Stephen, I enjoyed talking to you.
    STEPHEN FRANKS: [curtly] Okay. Thanks, Chris.

    By the way, Dita Di Boni is the big improver in the media; she is unflustered in debate, and has got the better of several right wing opponents. Franks is not the first mediocrity she has sent packing. She has not always been so sure of herself…..
    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-10052013/#comment-631145

  3. Paul 3
    1 September 2015 at 7:08 am

    This article should be compulsory reading for the Labour Party.
    Power without principle is not worth it.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/08/what-corbyn-moment-means-left

    • half crown 3.1
      1 September 2015 at 8:12 am

      Paul @#3 said
      “This article should be compulsory reading for the Labour Party.
      Power without principle is not worth it.”

      Nice one Paul I liked this bit, and as you said should be compulsory reading

      “We want someone to remember that democracy does not begin and end at the ballot box. We want someone to represent the interests of the young, the poor and the marginalised in parliament. These are simple, modest demands. And the most damning indictment on the British political machine is the way in which these simple, modest demands look like a revolution.”

      • greywarshark 3.1.1
        1 September 2015 at 3:10 pm

        In that representation should be an economic promise. That they will serve the needs of micro businesses fairly. That they will encourage people to get out and earn money, in their own tiny way compared to the great domestic product.

        That they will keep taxes low, encourage specialisation and retraining, let women use the market and sell their baking, preserves whatever. The oppression of the poor is not only in unemployment, low minimum wages, it is also allowing health and safety and big business to force the individual out of being entrepreneurial because bigger businesses don’t like it.

  4. Tautoko Mangō Mata 4
    1 September 2015 at 7:24 am

    USA. In a 2014 survey, the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism (START) surveyed hundreds of law enforcement personnel at the state and local level, all of whom had training in intelligence gathering or counterterrorism. They were presented with a list of radical groups and asked to rate, on a scale of 1 to 4, how much they agreed that this group posed a terrorist threat to the US.

    One of the interesting changes was for Islamic extremists, which dropped from the No. 1 to No. 2 spot — replaced by the anti-government “sovereign citizen” movement, which climbed up from No. 8:

    http://www.vox.com/2015/8/31/9208015/terrorism-chart-ranked
    Sovereign citizens believe that natural citizens are not subject to any United States federal law, including being subject to the jurisdiction of federal courts, but are subject to natural law and common law. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen

    When Tim Groser calls TPPA protests “extreme” , is he considering those people to be of the “sovereign citizen” type?

    • Colonial Viper 4.1
      1 September 2015 at 9:44 am

      When you ramp up overweight and over strength security forces, they will always eventually turn on the ordinary people.

    • McFlock 4.2
      1 September 2015 at 11:24 am

      Well, they have form for it, and lots of guns.

      When the republicans started actively cultivating support from militia “tea party” types, they knew exactly who they were seeking support from.

  5. Tautoko Mangō Mata 5
    1 September 2015 at 7:28 am

    Who is the enemy? North Dakota allows police departments to equip drones with non-lethal weapons such as Tasers, tear gas and rubber bullets.
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2015/08/28/police-taser-drones-authorized–north-dakota/71319668/

    • DoublePlusGood 5.1
      1 September 2015 at 10:41 am

      This is what happens when military companies need a nice sideline after losing contracts to wreck Iraq and Syria.

  6. Saarbo 6
    1 September 2015 at 7:30 am

    And here we go again, Labour’s lack of internal discipline coming back:

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/282927/divisions-in-labour-over-charter-schools-policy

    Dumb.

    • Paul 6.1
      1 September 2015 at 7:41 am

      Anyone with perception said a long time ago that Kelvin Davis was a liability.

      • Skinny 6.1.1
        1 September 2015 at 8:43 am

        I wouldn’t knock him too much there cobbah. I understand he did go on record last Friday and say he won’t take any political donations from the Talley’s and their group of companies. This came at a Citizen’s Resistance rally he attended. Apparently the local Nat MP Dr Shane Reti went to ground and would not return calls by the Group.

        I guess Reti has been muzzled after a series of confused messaging be has put out.

      • Ron 6.1.2
        1 September 2015 at 10:30 pm

        Dover Samuels anyone??

    • Skinny 6.2
      1 September 2015 at 7:58 am

      I attended a political forum at the school he is making reference to. I tell ya they really were doing a great job for the young Maori students. A Millitary style setup. The problem for Pen & Kel is the fuckers running the show are either Maori-Tory party or Tory Maori’s. So no votes there for Labour. I guess Davis is after the candidate vote.

      • BM 6.2.1
        1 September 2015 at 8:18 am

        This comment stands out for me by Andrew Little

        “We’ve had a pretty strong campaign against charter schools. It’s not a model that we favour, we don’t think its a good model for addressing Maori underperformance in education and having them would send, or has the potential to send, a conflicting signal.”

        Such an arrogant and colonialist attitude, but so typical of labour.

        I have no idea why Maori vote Labour.

        • millsy 6.2.1.1
          1 September 2015 at 9:42 am

          Like turning education into private commodity would really help Maori,

          • BM 6.2.1.1.1
            1 September 2015 at 9:47 am

            Who are you to say what is right or wrong for Maori.

            It’s not the method that matters, it’s the result.

            • Colonial Viper 6.2.1.1.1.1
              1 September 2015 at 9:53 am

              Geeezus here’s a guy who actually believes that the ends justifies the means.

              • BM …
                1 September 2015 at 10:01 am

                Interesting comment from a guy that promotes alternative medicine.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  1 September 2015 at 10:13 am

                  If you have an argument, let’s hear you make it.

                  btw I don’t “promote” “alternative medicine” I practice non-medical paradigm healthcare.

                  • BM …
                    1 September 2015 at 10:16 am

                    It’s not the method that matters, it’s the result.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      1 September 2015 at 10:31 am

                      Fuck off mate, the ends does not justify the means, never has, never will.

                    • McFlock …
                      1 September 2015 at 12:56 pm

                      The method always matters.

                    • Bill …
                      1 September 2015 at 3:13 pm

                      Got a sore leg? No problem, we’ll just saw that critter off. What was that? Thought you said only the result mattered? Thought you said you wanted your sore leg to go away?

                      On the intelligence front, might it be suggested you take your head out of arse in order that your brain might get more oxygen?

                    • dv …
                      1 September 2015 at 5:43 pm

                      Right measure the IQ at 5 years
                      Kill all those below 120

                      Its the results that matter, not the method eh BM

                    • RedLogix …
                      1 September 2015 at 5:59 pm

                      Twenty five years ago I badly wrenched my left shoulder rotator cuff breaking up some concrete. It never really healed, and in particular if I was lying down with that arm above my head for more than a few minutes it was quite painful to get it back to a normal position.

                      In the past year or so this it was getting worse. Then about three months ago I aggravated the whole thing by trying to grab a bag out of the back seat of the car awkwardly. Could hardly move my left arm for about three days. (Which made driving over the Great Alpine Road in the dark with about 10m visibility that evening quite fun!)

                      Three weeks ago I was knocked over with a bad cold and decided to let my Chinese Traditional medical practioner have a go at it. At one point she asked about my left shoulder, because she could see how I favoured it – and gave it the full noise acupuncture works. Industrial strength.

                      An immediate improvement. First trip about 80% better. Second trip 100%. Full movement, no nagging pain – after 25 years it’s gone. If you want to argue I just spent $200 on a placebo effect – go right ahead. I consider the best money I ever spent!

                    • weka …
                      1 September 2015 at 6:56 pm

                      Pretty much how I feel about it too Red. I’ll take an improvement in my health over a theory about Randomised Controlled Trials, and I’ll take responsibility for deciding if the risks of side effects are worth it. Would be nice of mainstream medicine got on board and helped with that.

                    • BM …
                      1 September 2015 at 7:07 pm

                      Whatever works, that’s my motto.

                      Pro- tip, if you ever get the urge to break concrete up again.

                      Concrete has amazing compressive strength but fuck all shear strength.

                      The key is to get a wedge underneath the bit you want to break, so it’s off the ground.

                      You literally just have to tap it and the concrete will break.

                      No need to pound the crap out of it with a sledge hammer

                  • DoublePlusGood …
                    1 September 2015 at 10:42 am

                    You mean “fraud”.

                  • Realblue …
                    1 September 2015 at 3:03 pm

                    Then why do you persist in calling yourself “doctor” in your advertising?

                    • Tracey …
                      1 September 2015 at 4:11 pm

                      In India Homeopathists are legallyy referred to as Doctors.

                    • Realblue …
                      1 September 2015 at 4:27 pm

                      This isn’t India, and he’s not a doctor. Like any profession quackery demeans all.

                      [Bit of a strong claim there ‘Realblue’. Prove that he’s not in fact a doctor and if and when you achieve that, show where he made the false claim of himself. In moderation until you acknowledge this instance of moderation] – Bill

                      [lprent: Your call, but I’d just ban him permanently and without any possible amnesty. He won’t be able to find it because it doesn’t exist. But he will mindlessly parrot the same stupidity next time around. He is just a waste of bandwidth and probably has been for the last 6 years or so. ]

                      [Done. I was about to do two months and leave any lengthening of that up to others, but hey. Such a shame that anyone else going down the same path probably won’t see this precedent. On the off-chance… seek to trash or otherwise cast aspersions on anyone’s professional life s realblue has done, and you’re gone. ] – Bill

                    • weka …
                      1 September 2015 at 6:06 pm

                      “Then why do you persist in calling yourself “doctor” in your advertising?”

                      Doctors can practice non medical paradigm health care. I think you misunderstood what CV said.

                    • greywarshark …
                      1 September 2015 at 6:54 pm

                      A professional person usually has certificates relating to the levels of professional study they have achieved on the wall. I think that is required. It should be openly on display. I would presume that CV and any other health professional does this.

                    • weka …
                      1 September 2015 at 7:01 pm

                      Real Blue wants to use their prejudice about Chiropractors to beat CV. Chiropractors are allowed to use the term ‘doctor’ in NZ. If Real Blue has a political analysis of that, I’d love to hear it. Bet it’s just bigotry though.

                      Not sure that CV has anything to prove here online (I agree about in their practices though). We don’t expect northshoredoc to provide documentation of his professional qualifications.

                      Bill, not sure how RB can provide evidence without breaching CV’s pseudonym. They can of course try and prove that they iare talking about chiropractors in general and that they’re not doctors.

                      [ Seeing as how I know who he’s talking about, he can refer to CV as CV and point to anything in general terms…eg, he claims on his site/his site says etc. If he can’t do that, then I’d suggest he should have thought about what he was saying/claiming. I’m picking that the idiot is unaware that doctorates are doctorates and not all of them are MDs. Anyway. He’s in moderation, so nothing he submits will become public knowledge unless another mod releases it. I’m off and out of tha net in about 10. After that, ‘trueblue’ will likely just have to put up with his comments sitting in moderation until tomorrow sometime.] – Bill

                    • weka …
                      1 September 2015 at 8:33 pm

                      oh that’s good. I was worried they would start posting links to RL IDs, but if they have to go through moderation, that’s great.

                    • weka …
                      1 September 2015 at 9:46 pm

                      I thought the protocol here was to let people have their pseudonyms where they want them and not to out them unless they do so. Some people, like you and me, have absolute pseudonyms. Others have contextual ones. CV chooses to comment as CV, I don’t see why that can’t be respected. But it’s not really about him, it’s about the principle of it.

                      Not sure why you felt the need to post that link.

                    • McFlock …
                      1 September 2015 at 10:31 pm

                      Because CV wrote an entire post outing his real life ID.

                      Whatever.

                    • weka …
                      1 September 2015 at 10:48 pm

                      Thanks for ignoring most of what I said.

                      It wasn’t a bit late. Obviously.

                  • weka …
                    1 September 2015 at 6:19 pm

                    “If you have an argument, let’s hear you make it.”

                    Quite.

                    For the record, I think the slurs and sometimes outright attacks on someone here for what they do in their day job, when that day job has nothing to do with what is being discussed, is a form of bigotry and bullying. I can’t see any point to it other than to undermine the person. It’s pathetic, nasty and personal. I don’t see it as being too far removed from the kind of motivations behind doxxing. As far as I am concerned, information about people’s personal lives is a privilege not an invitation to attack them via that information.

                    If you can’t argue the points, how about you take a step back until you can.

            • millsy 6.2.1.1.1.2
              1 September 2015 at 10:06 am

              So you support privatision.

              All charters schools teach kids is how to be neo-liberal conformists, and not speak out against the system.

              Note that the charter schools in Auckland are a military academy and a christian school, which use 2 totaltarian methods, bibles and guns to subdue methods.

              I wonder if that christian school expels kids who identify as LGBTIQ

        • Colonial Viper 6.2.1.2
          1 September 2015 at 9:48 am

          LOL you clearly have no idea BM, co-opting brown people into running private schools, paying them shit loads of tax payers money, allowing lax rules and inefficiencies, why don’t you bitch about that “colonialism”?

        • Tracey 6.2.1.3
          1 September 2015 at 10:39 am

          Maori Party has not led the charge on Charter Schools, the ACT party has. Who are the ACT Party to say what is right or wrong for Maori?

          • Adele 6.2.1.3.1
            1 September 2015 at 11:25 am

            Teenaa koutou katoa

            There are many Maaori communities that would favour charter schools. Colonial and paternalistic thinking would say otherwise. Mainstream education is failing Maaori tamariki and rangatahi.

            • save NZ 6.2.1.3.1.1
              1 September 2015 at 11:32 am

              There are plenty of really good immersion schools for Maori – I’m not sure the public money going into private hands (often overseas hands at that) with unqualified teachers and no regulation or transparency is the answer under charter schools.

              Also wasn’t there that situation where a charter school was supposed to be set up for Maori but the million dollars was paid for the land and no money was left for the school. The board or whoever got to keep the land even though it was never used as intended.

              Real estate deals should not be taking kids education money – like Serco – zero targets or accountability – just taking money away from state schools and giving it to business.

              • Adele …
                2 September 2015 at 11:36 pm

                Teenaa koe, Save NZ

                Kohanga Reo are effectively charter schools run on a rag by whanau who mostly cannot afford the oily.

                The concept that charter schools represent is a school where Te Ao Taangata Whenua is the worldview that shapes everything about the school.

                Excellence from a Te Ao Taangata Whenua perspective is where a student is fluent in both cultures and can walk in both worldviews confidently.

                There are some excellent mainstream schools for Maaori but these schools are the exception and not the rule. Thank you for your thoughtful words.

            • Saarbo 6.2.1.3.1.2
              1 September 2015 at 12:04 pm

              “Mainstream education is failing Maaori tamariki and rangatahi.”

              Not in our college, they make up approx. 50% and have the same pass rates as non Maori…link attached. A very good college.

              http://ero.govt.nz/ezero/Early-Childhood-School-Reports/School-Reports/Otorohanga-College-03-12-2013

            • Tracey 6.2.1.3.1.3
              1 September 2015 at 4:15 pm

              I understand that BUT was addressing a different issue, namely the hypocrisy of BM’s comment…

              That ACT, a party of no Maori MP’s is championing charter schools and can thereby “tell” l Maori what is right or wrong for them, but others can’t. He covered his failing by wrongly attributing Charter Schools to the Maori Party.

              If Charter Schooling was about enabling Maori to provide a better education for tamariki and rangatahi we would have a hellova lot more in the pilot shceme.

              • greywarshark …
                2 September 2015 at 12:07 pm

                I think Tracey that charter schools, the government and Maori interact this way. The government can’t put too much into Maori schools in the way that Maori would like because government hasn’t faith in their ability to run effectively (note the closing down of what should have been solid secondary schools Queen Vic, St Stephens and another one going down.) Also the National constituency is largely white and dismissive of anyone who can’t match up with the pakeha education system.

                Labour got criticised and themselves cut out Closing the Gaps measures instead of sticking to their knitting and riding the waves of derision. Efforts to assist Maori with special training and opportunities to get a clear direction where their talents would take them ran into trouble. As in when a special fee for getting a Maori of the unemployed lists and into a job was rejected by the agency workers as being unfair, I think it was in Christchurch.

                It seems to me that for National, charter schools are free from calls of racial bias, they are a sidestep from the norm which is perceived to have failed so many. And Maori have money from settlements, they can invest in themselves and show pakeha what they can achieve in education. Any payments to charter schools with Maori will get lightly noted as all charter schools can receive this.

                On Radionz this morning there was a spirited spokesperson for one of the schools visited by Kelvin Davis along the lines that electorates should decide policy, tell their MP and he/she should comply. So Andrew could go suck a lemon. Of course there are many aspects to consider with charter schools and electorates can’t individually decide national policy, but Labour should choose now to work with these schools, and just impose some lines in the sand for them, minimising the known rort avenues by looking at their track record in the USA and other places, and maximising the positive effects. If Labour turns round and shuts the charter school idea down they will be seen as kicking Maori in the teeth and wanting to impose their previously failed concepts on them.

                These schools could be good candidates for having a group Principal who would need enough mana to keep them in line, performance and finance-wise. The pride of a hapu or iwi in succeeding in getting high uni graduates, but a lot more high technically competent graduates would light up the sky at night!

                I am sure that none want them just as hothouses for sports people run off their feet and off the earth at early ages, or armed forces candidates to send as mercenaries overseas, as Fiji did. Too many soldiers with a penchant for violence as a solution to problems is not what a country needs. But we could do with more Maori police who are strong and can cope with the pollen of racism that floats invisibly down and seems to show up suddenly in particular places and times.

                In the charters there are less restrictions than on ordinary schools, and that leaves open possibilities for nepotism and acceptance of shonky confidence tricks. They are open opportunities for Maori to prove their educational nous but if they fall by the wayside into accepting second best when it is their own choice, they will be roasted unmercifully.
                edited

                • Tracey …
                  2 September 2015 at 7:13 pm

                  thanks so much for your thoughtful response. much to consider.

                  • greywarshark …
                    2 September 2015 at 9:21 pm

                    @Tracey
                    I didn’t know what I thought to begin with. I had read about charter schools and that they were often unsatisfactory in the USA. And I didn’t like the corporate model getting into education which should be broad and not tied to consumerism.

                    Then I heard this spokesperson very hot about Labour and their visit to the school. And I felt it may have gone too far to be reversed, it needs to be helped to success if possible. I knew that Labour could often be patronising to Maori, and the rest of us know thatthey have carried that across to all their supporters in recent decades.

                    Labour MP for Tāmaki-Makaurau Peeni Henare and his colleague, Kelvin Davis, attended a fundraiser for the He Puna Marama Trust, which has set up a charter school in Whangarei.
                    The party has been vehemently opposed to the formation of charter schools and pledged to scrap them if it won the last election.
                    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/282927/labour-mps-told-to-toe-the-line-on-charter-schools

                    • Tracey …
                      4 September 2015 at 11:16 am

                      I believe that “we” the collective “we” though our government need to provide the support and means for communities to find the solutions for themselves. We are not all the same. IF a Charter School suits the education needs of a particular community which is suffering under the current system, then it is incumbent on “we” to follow that lead. The profit motive however well disguised cannot, imo, be the motivating factor, or the unsubstantiated belief that if the profit motive model is used, success must follow.

                    • greywarshark …
                      4 September 2015 at 12:21 pm

                      Tracey
                      Yes the profit motive is a troubling one with education. I can’t feel positive about the privately owned schools growing to larger numbers. Whether run by individuals or corporates or charities or religious entities, as not-for-profit models, sponsorship of materials or for part of the funding, or for particular courses, sport, financial training and budgeting etc. Sponsorships gained by one school could come from four or more different firms, each aimed at the courses relating to the businesses. Too much manipulation and brand-image attachment there.

                      Locals getting the type of teaching and subjects they need makes sense, provided that they have had experienced and practical
                      tuition before they make their decisions. And the government should ensure that basic nation-wide subjects are taught to standard.

                      We do have to watch out for the anti-science primitive church educationalists trying to impose their manufactured beliefs on hard-earned scientific facts, that are open to scrutiny and exposure of fault or fraud. These people are already infiltrating into our society. I believe that most have come from USA which seems to be a strong-hold of individualist religions that seek to detach themselves from the established churches and decide on their own form of Christian belief and meaning.
                      edited

            • millsy 6.2.1.3.1.4
              1 September 2015 at 10:37 pm

              I agree that Maori are being shat on in the education system, but privatisation isnt the answer, nor is ‘choice’ or ‘competition’.

              The whole approach to education since 1989, which is whipping out the collaborative school support structure and implementing social darwinism has failed Maori — Tomorrow’s Schools needs to be overhauled.

              More Maori need to be at the chalk face. We need more Maori principals, more Maori teachers and more Maori administrators and school board members.

              • weka …
                1 September 2015 at 10:55 pm

                and Māori schools.

              • Adele …
                3 September 2015 at 12:20 am

                Teenaa koe, Millsy

                I think the privitisation of the education dollar is a barrel being pushed by vested interests in the status quo.

                However, my primary angst is in thinking that mainstream education is homogenising. Our students are lost in a sea of beige.

                I agree that more effort should be exercised in improving Maaori participation. But the system that is rejected by our youth is likely to be as obnoxious to our teachers and principals.

                In saying that, we have some excellent teachers and principals and students within the mainstream systems and being supported by excellent schools.

      • Anne 6.2.2
        1 September 2015 at 9:49 am

        @ Skinny
        No, he was supporting young relatives who apparently are involved in the school. He told Little in advance and Little told him it was Davis’ decision whether he attended the function or not. Something similar with Peeni Henare too.

        Gower started this crap and people here should know to ignore anything from that half baked journo.

        • Colonial Viper 6.2.2.1
          1 September 2015 at 9:55 am

          That is definitely NOT what it sounds like from the RNZ report.

          Party leader Andrew Little told Morning Report today he was confident the MPs’ misjudgment would not be repeated.

          • Anne 6.2.2.1.1
            1 September 2015 at 10:23 am

            He may well have told them he would prefer them not to go etc. but he still apparently left the decision up to them. That makes sense to me. Andrew Little is not an authoritarian type. He believes they made the wrong decision and he doesn’t expect them to do it again.

            Still doesn’t alter the fact it was a pathetic Gower beat-up over very little and should be ignored.

        • marty mars 6.2.2.2
          1 September 2015 at 10:06 am

          Little asked them not to go – they went. What does it mean? Not much imo.

        • Saarbo 6.2.2.3
          1 September 2015 at 12:05 pm

          @Anne
          Thanks. Fair enough.

    • DH 6.3
      1 September 2015 at 8:23 am

      Not this again.

      Look, this is just speculative shitstirring from the media. They’re trying to make a controversy out of nothing. MPs have a duty to both their party and their constituents, they’re all going to be talking to people that are in conflict with their party and there is nothing wrong with that. You can’t expect MPs to completely ignore every non-Labour supporter in their electorate can you?

      Look at the difference in reporting between today and yesterday;

      3news…

      “Labour sources have told 3 News Mr Little did not want them to go.”

      RadioNZ..

      “Mr Davis told 3News at the fundraiser that his leader, Andrew Little, did not want the Labour MPs to attend the event.”

      They’re making shit up and people are falling for it.

      • Saarbo 6.3.1
        1 September 2015 at 8:49 am

        Yep agree, but we know the media are going to shit stir this type of thing up, therefore labour MP’s need to be savvy to it.

        • tc 6.3.1.1
          1 September 2015 at 9:44 am

          Yes the naievity and stupidity that Labour continue to show in their media and MP management makes you wonder if they really want treasury benches back again.

      • weka 6.3.2
        1 September 2015 at 8:51 am

        “Look, this is just speculative shitstirring from the media”

        It started out that way, but now the internal mess that is Labour is showing again. Their story is inconsistent and now they’re disagreeing with each other in public. It just looks really bad on top of everything else.

        All I can say is that if the GP behaved like this I’d stop voting for them.

        • DH 6.3.2.1
          1 September 2015 at 9:03 am

          Yeah, they’re all crap scared of upsetting the likes of Gower and becoming the next target. Too many professional politicians. They need to start showing some backbone instead of letting themselves be bullied by these media prats.

      • Colonial Viper 6.3.3
        1 September 2015 at 9:49 am

        “Mr Davis told 3News at the fundraiser that his leader, Andrew Little, did not want the Labour MPs to attend the event.”

        They’re making shit up and people are falling for it.

        This is a direct statement by RNZ. What was said, who said it, where it was said. I doubt they are lying about the facts of it.

        • DH 6.3.3.1
          1 September 2015 at 10:10 am

          The media rarely lie outright. They can get sued for that. They do imply, infer, insinuate…..

          The TV3 report said ‘labour sources’. That implied a leak which insinuates dissent in the party ranks. RNZ say the ‘labour sources’ was the man himself which if true says there was no leak or ‘labour sources’.

          Frankly it’s unlikely he’d say it how it was quoted either, he’s not a novice in dealing with the media so his words have likely been manipulated to imply there’s more to it than what a few simple words would reveal.

    • millsy 6.4
      1 September 2015 at 9:27 am

      Kelvin Davis and that Peeni guy support the privatisation of education.

      • adam 6.4.1
        1 September 2015 at 2:07 pm

        You might want to put a link up about Peeni Henare wanting privatisation of education. I agree with him about He Puna Marama Trust charter school in Whangerei. Transparent, great staff and getting good results.

        This statement I agree with.

        “I support that particular charter school, and the reason I do that is that I’ve seen kaupapa grow from the fetal stages all the way to what they have today and I’ve seen the outcomes they’ve achieved and that’s I why I support that particular kaupapa.” MP Peeni Henare – taken from the radio NZ web site.

        The system is broken -for many Maori and Pacific kids. Charter schools are not the answer. But one of them is making the governments programme look bad, because it is so good. And is it not a wonderful thing to see kids do well?

        • Tracey 6.4.1.1
          1 September 2015 at 4:18 pm

          And is he advocating a quick move to more of them to satisfy the entire need of such students? Or is he advocating a softly softly, don’t upset whitey and non Maori voters process which will see the “problem” ongoing for more decades. Bravery is required. And Bravery is not just going to one school and champioining git. It would be CRYING from the rooftops “EUREKA! now let’s roll this baby our quickly to cater for all our broken Maori schoolchildren.”

          • adam 6.4.1.1.1
            1 September 2015 at 7:14 pm

            Well I have problems with Mr Henare and his lack of obvious work now he is a MP. Reminds me of some other MP’s who enter parliament and do a great job warming seats.

            That said, I essentially agree with you Tracey. These MP’s including Winston and Davis should be going – lets roll this model through the education sector. But, I think you hit the hammer on the head – “softly softly, don’t upset whitey”.

            We need these kids to reach their best – things need to change. If labour can not or will not offer the leadership. Other parties in opposition should.

        • millsy 6.4.1.2
          1 September 2015 at 10:43 pm

          As I said to Adele above — more Maori principals, more Maori teachers and more Maori on school boards.

          I would be OK with charter schools if there were more along the lines of the concept that militant teaching unionist Al Shanker devised back in the 1980’s, as show cases of innovative teaching methods.

          The charter schools we are seeing in the US, and what Parata is trying to import to this country, are more or less corporate/church run sausage factories that teach children nothing more than to toe the line in the neo-liberal world.

    • McFlock 6.5
      1 September 2015 at 11:38 am

      nah.
      The event was on the weekend, even with all the beat-up it’s beginning to fizzle as a gotcha piece.

      In the old days gower et al would have been breathlessly reporting ‘developments’ like people within caucus being angry, confrontations behind closed doors, plans to write a letter of protest and get signatures, all that shit.

      But with this, all the vultures have is what they started with: the electorate MPs went, they knew it was not the preferred option, but nobody’s throwing their toys out of the cot.

    • The Chairman 6.6
      1 September 2015 at 2:48 pm

      Yes, Saarbo (at 6).

      And while Little is on the back-foot discussing that, NZ First is on the front line fighting this:

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/agribusiness/71613077/foreign-investment-in-silver-fern-farms-opposed-by-farmers

      I wonder who will get the farming vote in the regions?

  8. NZSage 8
    1 September 2015 at 7:55 am

    This interview should be compulsory viewing for all aspiring journalists in NZ (great questions, great technique) also for for NZ Labour leaders, some excellent policies from JC .

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqqDxSKFt3A

    • Bill 8.1
      1 September 2015 at 9:11 am

      Interviewers behaving as though they aren’t wee eight year olds in the school playground any more, and so not acting out a slightly more articulate version of the puffed up ‘nah, nah, nahnah, nah’ taunt of playtime group bullying?

      Can’t really see that happening with the current crop of TVNZ or TV3 interviewers, can you?

  9. Gangnam Style 9
    1 September 2015 at 8:10 am

    Peter Lyons column about National spin, well worth a read, http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz-government/news/article.cfm?c_id=144&objectid=11505697

    • JanM 9.1
      1 September 2015 at 8:21 am

      The superficial spin is being taken up with unseemly enthusiasm by the MSM – I’m so sick of picking through the rubble of TV and newspapers for real news and information I’m on the verge of giving up 🙁

    • Barbara 9.2
      1 September 2015 at 8:37 am

      I wrote in yesterday’s Standard about his column and commented he would be the next one for the chop, fortunately he has a job teaching in a boys’ school so he won’t be out on the street. He’s a brave soul putting his neck out and I admire him for it.

      • tc 9.2.1
        1 September 2015 at 9:46 am

        That’s why he does stick his neck out….he makes his living elsewhere so doesn’t have to doff his cap to the MSM agenda.

    • ianmac 9.3
      1 September 2015 at 10:22 am

      Oops just posted a link to Peter’s column on the other thread, ” Away with the economic fairies.” Anyway I am too late, but I do think Peter’s collection of spins is pretty useful.

  10. rawshark-yeshe 10
    1 September 2015 at 8:37 am

    The Nact memorandum for state houses grand larceny … I’m just too angry to comment but in case it hasn’t been posted elsewhere already … Bridges gets to burn his bridges first in Tauranga:

    https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2303707/transfer-of-tauranga-social-housing.pdf

    and

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11505742

    • tc 10.1
      1 September 2015 at 9:49 am

      Cue the opposition to make a strong statement about public assets being returned without a looters bonus being paid.

      FFS this is a direct kick in the teeth for those in need. It’ll be a re-run of GI in akl where the private sector make a killing.

      • DH 10.1.1
        1 September 2015 at 10:32 am

        It’s a licence to print money, small wonder the Aussies are sniffing around they know a steal when they see one.

        Who wouldn’t be interested in a govt guaranteed revenue stream in perpetuity. Look at this…

        “In general, as long as properties are available and required for social housing, the
        government will take vacancy risk.”

        Not only does the Govt guarantee the rent, at full market rates, they also guarantee full tenancy. They’re taking all the risk out of property investment and they plan on selling the properties at BELOW market prices? They should be higher… well they shouldn’t be sold at all but it does show what a scam this is.

        • tc 10.1.1.1
          1 September 2015 at 12:19 pm

          yes the statements from the shonky crew are a bat for them to be bashed with if only we had an opposition capable of picking up the bat and using it.

  11. Molly 11
    1 September 2015 at 9:10 am

    A request for Standardista’s re a climate change resource list.

    Any recommendations or recollections of books, documentaries or articles that helped inform and shape your opinion?

    • Bill 11.1
      1 September 2015 at 9:19 am

      Most level headed, informative, and accessible person I’ve come across is Kevin Anderson of the Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research.

      This 2012 open lecture he gave is something I’ve linked to and trawled for various posts I’ve done on climate change. Here it is again and another to one of his articles.

      http://www.bristol.ac.uk/cabot/events/2012/194.html (link includes transcript of presentation)

      http://www.whatnext.org/resources/Publications/Volume-III/Single-articles/wnv3_andersson_144.pdf

      • Molly 11.1.1
        1 September 2015 at 9:48 am

        Thanks Bill.

        Thinking of setting up a book club scheme – or requesting certain titles for the Book Discussion Scheme – so that groups of people locally connected, can all read the same information and discuss.

        I know that climate awareness for me, became more informed by reading James Hansen’s “Storms of my Grandchildren” and Fred Pearce’s “When the Rivers Run Dry”. It was only then I really comprehended the enormity of change that BAU would require, and the change that would occur regardless. The Transition Towns handbook, also provided some relief from the realisation that it was likely that government would only act after their citizens demanded it.

        I no longer belong to the local book club. But it is a way to inform and discuss, with people open to the idea of discussion for the sake of it.

        I know that with friends and family, there has been a marked change in those who have shared their thoughts, as opposed to those who think it is ‘not their cup of tea’.

  12. Draco T Bastard 12
    1 September 2015 at 10:06 am

    Socialism for the rich (Drawbacks of our current money system)

    It’s not as if there is an absolute shortage of money. The problem is that banks and other financial players pump most of the money into the financial or virtual economy, where it is used for speculation rather than production and consumption.[3] At the same time the “real” economy of the production and consumption of goods and services faces a money shortage.

    When you look it’s really quite obvious why the economy is failing and the reason is because the financial system is geared to making the rich richer rather than producing real goods and services to provide for the well being of society.

    • greywarshark 12.1
      1 September 2015 at 10:43 am

      Well we are all economic man and woman. When one thinks that consumerism is a driver in the modern economic society, then enabling people to spend in NZ on NZ made goods would make sense.

      So then benefits should rise for young people, give them mostly-paid education even with bonds, and also retired people should be able to receive more for volunteer work after training. Then their increased spending on specific NZ goods, cheap travel on the Railways for instance, would improve takings in these areas, and result in the ripple effect of two or three times into the community, the multiplier would act against the recessionary effect of keeping wages low for all those businesses than can’t operate without getting subsidies from somewhere, if not government then the people.

  13. greywarshark 13
    1 September 2015 at 10:15 am

    Women’s work in the home. Is it work if nobody notices it?
    Radio nz this morning audio will come up later.
    10:05 Feminism, economics, & who cooked Adam Smith’s dinner?
    Katrine Marcal, author of Who Cooked Adam Smith’s Dinner?, argues there is a fatal flaw in our continued reliance on Adam Smith’s representation of how the economy works. She believes it places an over-emphasis on self-interest and ‘economic man’. Katrine Marcal argues economics isn’t about money it is about how we view people, and sometimes how we ignore them. Giving birth to babies, raising children, cultivating a garden, or taking care of Adam Smith so he could write Wealth of Nations. None of this counted in his standard economic model. So is it time to re-think economic science?

    • Tracey 13.1
      1 September 2015 at 10:42 am

      Marilyn Waring wrote/studied about this 30 years ago. Some of her unpaid work valuing measures have been taken up in other countries. She was WAY ahead of her time.

      • left for deadshark 13.1.1
        1 September 2015 at 12:23 pm

        ..(Counting for nothing) i think, Hot of the press I bought a copy. A couple of women down the road spied my copy, borrowed it, never saw again, read from the library though, sad society cannot see the gains we could make being equal.

    • greywarshark 13.2
      1 September 2015 at 10:47 am

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player/201768831
      Katrine Marcal – Swedish economist.

      Doesn’t matter what good ideas we have, they have to be taken out and looked at regularly to get the best out of them. Perhaps the Greens could take Marilyn Warings out and put them to good use as societies cry out for better, fairer systems.

      • Tracey 13.2.1
        1 September 2015 at 4:19 pm

        Probably need to wait for Waring’s ideas to be trumpeted by a man as his own.

        • greywarshark 13.2.1.1
          1 September 2015 at 5:38 pm

          Oh Tracey so cynical. Sometimes someone finds the right hole to push something through and it gets accepted. Like littlies matching a block to a hole, it works. It happens with music – sometimes the original musician gets an average acceptance and someone else presents it slightly differently and ,.., it’s away.

  14. Tautoko Mangō Mata 14
    1 September 2015 at 10:22 am

    TPP could block copyright fair use
    http://www.nbr.co.nz/opinion/tpp-could-block-copyright-fair-use

  15. Gangnam Style 15
    1 September 2015 at 10:22 am

    Oh Canada! I knew it was bad over there but this is something else (Re; Harper taking control of their democracy). http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/28/canada-stephen-harper-harder-to-vote

  16. Barbara 16
    1 September 2015 at 10:41 am

    The final four flag designs are crap – three feature a fern (white feather which is a historic sign of cowardice) which Key wants and the other with the Koru is black – so no guessing Key will get his fern – just as he wanted – you have got to give it to the bloke he is pushy and knows how to get his own way. I think the military will want to keep their kiwi badge.

    • Tracey 16.1
      1 September 2015 at 10:44 am

      …the “Cabinet approved” four flags. Suggests that no matter how neutral the panel was they had to get them past cabinet. 3 with key’s fern as you observe and the fourth, imo, not meant to stand up to the other three.

      Little or no nod to Tino rangatiratanga which ought to have been reflected in some way in all 4 finalists.

      • ianmac 16.1.1
        1 September 2015 at 10:48 am

        Flags here: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/71624100/live-final-four-nz-flag-designs-unveiled.html
        Don’t like any of them actually. Too Bland or too fussy. Trevor reckons the final four were chosen by Key, English, Joyce.

          • Tracey 16.1.1.1.1
            1 September 2015 at 11:07 am

            Red, Black and White would be a respectful hat-tip to the Tangata whenua… but not under this Government i guess.

            Aren’t 2 the same design with different colours? Which means its actually 3 designs not 4?

            • freedom 16.1.1.1.1.1
              1 September 2015 at 12:13 pm

              They are certainly colours that NZ could go forward under, at some point in the future, but I am not convinced NZ as a nation has a coherent enough belief in who it is right now to commit to an undertaking of this importance. I certainly do not believe there is a single icon (or chromatic identity) that has broad enough support amongst the populace of Aotearoa New Zealand that it can be transposed to the myriad of tasks that the representation of a national flag incorporates.

              The fixation of so many of the messages in the public arena focus on events and flagpoles. Even the chair of the panel said today they thoroughly investigated the various circumstances where there would be presentations of the flag. ‘we looked at it flying in a breeze, on a still day, close up, far away’ No, he wasn’t reading from a new Hairy McCleary book. His comments were predictably about a flag flying on a pole. Nary a mention of the hundreds of other situations where our flag is presented. The hype to date has certainly not concentrated on informing the public about the magnitude of associated real world costs that are the unavoidable next step of changing our flag. Figures which would undoubtedly raise the eyebrows of people currently struggling to tread water in the current economic climate. But letterheads and labels aren’t as exciting as the All Blacks.

              I for one remain hopeful the common strength to be found in the unfinished discussion of identity will win out over the carefully structured hype we are to be bombarded with over the coming months. Right now, that second referendum seems a long way off, leaving a lot of scope for ‘persuasion’ of a populace that is hungry to have some control over what it is living through. That said, the fact there is no set minimum vote required in either referendum does not build confidence in the legitimacy of the referendum process we now face.

              The pressure of change for the sake of change can be seen in many of the comments throughout various media. Just today on the Live Stuff link there were people saying ‘if we are going to spend 26 million, we may as well have a change to show for it’ If that is a reason to change a flag then I guess it is understandable that commercially marketed images with an existing copyright are up for selection.

              The two Lockwood designs being included was so predictable. I know i am not alone in thinking the entire selection process appeared to be an example of how to offer a preferred choice. All I know for sure is I won a bet and my coffee this afternoon is free.

              • Tracey …
                1 September 2015 at 4:21 pm

                He must have missed the memo about this being about branding, for sides of lamb and beep and cans on shelves (no wind needed)

          • Pasupial 16.1.1.1.2
            1 September 2015 at 11:48 am

            freedom

            The black/white fern is one of the copyrighted images, which is the other? I had been leaning towards voting for the black/ white koru (or as NRT would have it; the “hypnoflag”), mainly on the basis that it would deny Key his fern.

            Over on TDB it’s all about defacing ballot papers to make a statement, but that seems self-defeating. My prediction would be for the red/white/blue Lockwood flag to make the cut on first vote as Key has made it clear that that is his preference (and you can bet the Nats will vote even if no one else does). My problem is that I really hate having another country’s flag taking up a quarter of ours – so anything would be an improvement. Even the sham-consulted offerings that we’re having rammed down our throats as a “choice”.

            • lprent 16.1.1.1.2.1
              1 September 2015 at 12:15 pm

              Informal and invalid votes do get counted.

              None of these flags look like they are worth voting for. So I’m planning to vote against.

            • freedom 16.1.1.1.2.2
              1 September 2015 at 12:19 pm

              these are the images I was referring to Pasupial ( copyright notice at bottom of page)
              http://www.silverfernflag.org/store.html

              I was not aware the black & white fern was under copyright as well. ??

              • freedom …
                1 September 2015 at 12:32 pm

                d’oh of course!
                it is “the logo of Immigration NZ and the Companies Office”
                http://thestandard.org.nz/nrt-meh/

                so out of 10,000 contributions we get to choose from three copyrighted images and a koru ?

                • James …
                  1 September 2015 at 3:44 pm

                  I think you will find every submission is copyrighted. But if you actually read the submission rules you will see that: (from https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-with-government/the-nz-flag-your-chance-to-decide/resources/terms-and-conditions/)

                  If your Flag Design is chosen as a Shortlisted Design, then you:
                  hereby assign to the Crown at no cost all of your rights, title and interest in and to your Flag Design, including all copyright and other intellectual property rights in all works that feature in the Flag Design, and in the Flag Design as a whole, as may exist anywhere in the world;

                  agree to sign a written document which will include an assignment of all of your rights, title and interest in and to your Flag Design to the Crown, a waiver of all associated moral rights, and other terms and conditions relating to your Flag Design, in the form required by the Crown and at no cost; and

                  will ensure any other author of your Flag Design, or any element of your Flag Design, signs an agreement as described in clause 15(b) at no cost.

                  • Tracey …
                    1 September 2015 at 4:22 pm

                    so you get copyright and then agree to sign away any rights to the image (essentially).

                  • freedom …
                    1 September 2015 at 6:38 pm

                    Hi James, of course I had read them, and it was the stipulation that all copyright and commercial rights are surrendered which led to my interest in the ongoing commercial activity of the Silver Fern Flag sales department.

                    I see now I must have misread the terms when I initially looked at it (oops) and had the longlist of 40 confused with the shortlist of 4 that was announced today. I will endeavour to be more careful in my reading of official documentation, but the basic reality stands, an existing commercial product was selected for consideration as a national flag. That is just weird.

                    So I guess, as of today, the Silver Fern Flag website will be out of operation as a commercial enterprise.
                    Wonder what happens to all the flags and badges and buttons in stock. The store is still open for business at time of writing but I guess these things take time. Be interesting to see how long it takes.

            • greywarshark 16.1.1.1.2.3
              1 September 2015 at 1:11 pm

              I think the main thing is to understand that National have designs aplenty apart from for the flag. Don’t take your eyes off them for a second to look through the proffered images or they will be off with the parts of the country that haven’t already been sold down the river.

              When those have been sold, they will sell the river too and all the people will be brainwashed to salute the new flag and forget old New Zealand. After all it was a funny, little country trying to make its way in the world where you had to wait three months to get a new phone connection. Now see what we have got, or some of us!

            • Tracey 16.1.1.1.2.4
              1 September 2015 at 4:21 pm

              variations of a black/white fern are copyrighted… as a result there are many versions of the silver fern

          • maui 16.1.1.1.3
            1 September 2015 at 12:17 pm

            What I can’t understand is why haven’t they included the standard silver fern flag?? If they wanted to put up the best candidates to take on the old flag they surely would have chosen that one as part of the four wouldn’t they? I know there was the talk about it resembling the ISIS flag, but really I don’t think anyone in NZ would draw that connection…

            So, is this more about wasting everyone’s time and keeping people’s minds off other matters or is it just another cockup by Government to not include a really popular flag that could have bought about the change they’re supposedly after.

            • freedom 16.1.1.1.3.1
              1 September 2015 at 12:22 pm

              ” I don’t think anyone in NZ would draw that connection…”
              but a nation’s flag is seen around the world remember so it might be a problematic choice
              and there is also the white feather issue that has been discussed a few times

              • maui …
                1 September 2015 at 12:39 pm

                Fair points, but the end goal here is to convince the NZ public to change the flag and get it done, other countries don’t get to vote on it.

                Looking at the 4 flags to choose from, they’ve offered up two flags (the black & white ones) that are practically unknowns or new flags to the public. The other two coloured fern flags are really the same flag with one of them gaining minor popularity with people who have wanted a flag change for a while. Have they got 4 strong alternatives to pit against the old one? Absolutely not.

    • millsy 16.2
      1 September 2015 at 10:51 pm

      They look more like corporate logos to me.

      I wouldnt have minded the United Tribes flag in there – New Zealand’s flag as an independent nation — even if only on paper.

  17. Ovid 17
    1 September 2015 at 10:48 am

    Yeah they’re all pretty bad. A vexillogogical clusterfuck.

    • cogito 17.1
      1 September 2015 at 10:55 am

      Boy, do I hate those flags.

      Keep the NZ flag – and get rid of Key.

      • Tracey 17.1.1
        1 September 2015 at 11:06 am

        I’d like a new flag but this is just a branding scam led by the 9th floor.

      • Rosie 17.1.2
        1 September 2015 at 12:32 pm

        I hate them too. 3 sports logo’s and a lame attempt at a Koru, that looks like some airport branding

        As much as I want a new flag, I don’t want it now under the influence of the Key vanity project/mass distraction project and those designs completely suck.

        Ironically I will be voting to keep the current flag.

        • greywarshark 17.1.2.1
          1 September 2015 at 1:02 pm

          Rosie
          +100

          • whateva next? 17.1.2.1.1
            1 September 2015 at 1:06 pm

            + another 100, lets change the PM not the flag

            • greywarshark 17.1.2.1.1.1
              1 September 2015 at 1:16 pm

              If we were in a cartoon, and it was like the Road Runner story, we would get a steamroller and flatten yek and then he would become a very individual, unique flag which we would hold aloft while he led us for ever in all our enterprises. And he would be doing something of great positive significance for a change,
              reminding us not to vote for charlatans.

            • James 17.1.2.1.1.2
              1 September 2015 at 3:45 pm

              On 50%+ish polling its not looking likely at this point

              • McFlock …
                1 September 2015 at 3:49 pm

                yeah. He’s even managed to keep his hands to himself lately, no matter how tantalizing he finds someone’s ponytail

  18. travellerev 18
    1 September 2015 at 11:03 am

    On The AIG And Why The All Blacks Should Be Marked As A National’s Political Campaign Contribution!

    • James 18.1
      1 September 2015 at 12:34 pm

      Whoever wrote that is a moron. For starters Adidas isnt an American corporation – its German.

      • Naki man 18.1.1
        1 September 2015 at 1:47 pm

        ” and a flag change nobody wants”
        What will the moron say when the people vote for the new flag.

        • greywarshark 18.1.1.1
          1 September 2015 at 3:00 pm

          NakiMan
          Some people will vote for anything that holds their minds for a half hour and/or makes them laugh. There will be the ones too who haven’t got many ideas themselves and find it a pleasure to have someone else’s presented to them to judge. Deciding about things that others have done is The Favourite NZ Pastime.

      • travellerev 18.1.2
        1 September 2015 at 7:13 pm

        Oh oops. How about the TPPA for Europe? The TTIP (Please learn to speak and read German though before attempting to read this!>. Seems to me that Adidas is not a German Corporation but like the AIG an international corporation. Hellbent on taking over National sovereignty!

  19. les 19
    1 September 2015 at 12:08 pm

    meanwhile in Europe…’Europe must remain free to develop the common market into a space of high standards for consumers, workers and the environment. Blocking this is likely to be the real motive behind the big business lobby’s obsession with TTIP and co. Europe is big enough to sustain a high level of social, consumer, health and consumer rights even in a globalising world. No transnational company wants to stop selling to the European common market. Therefore, Europeans hold in their hand a powerful tool for greening global business. This democratic tool we must not give up for the small potential benefits of bilateral trade deals negotiated behind a veil of secrecy.’…Sven Giegold.

  20. Grant Buist 20
    1 September 2015 at 12:22 pm

    A musical response to the flag referendum shortlist.
    https://youtu.be/PKOG91wA2X0

  21. Tautoko Mangō Mata 21
    1 September 2015 at 2:02 pm

    TPPA
    1. Japan, Others Seeking TPP Ministerial Meeting in Late Sept.
    Tokyo, Aug. 31 (Jiji Press)–Japan and some other countries participating in Trans-Pacific Partnership negotiations are trying to arrange a plenary ministerial meeting in late September, informed sources have said.
    The countries are speeding up arrangements to realize a ministerial meeting of all of the 12 nations negotiating for a TPP deal for regional trade liberalization ahead of key political events in member states, such as a general election in Canada on Oct. 19.
    The United States, another TPP negotiation member, however, seems to be examining carefully when the proposed ministerial meeting should take place, as no clear signs have emerged of early agreements on thorny issues, such as intellectual property protection. http://jen.jiji.com/jc/eng?g=eco&k=2015083100607

    2. Disposable People: Obama, the TPP, and the Betrayal of Human Rights
    [An] examination, based on interviews with more than a dozen sources in Washington and foreign capitals, shows that the government office set up to independently grade global efforts to fight human trafficking was repeatedly overruled by senior American diplomats and pressured into inflating assessments of 14 strategically important countries in this year’s Trafficking in Persons report.

    In all, analysts in the Office to Monitor and Combat Trafficking in Persons – or J/TIP, as it’s known within the U.S. government — disagreed with U.S. diplomatic bureaus on ratings for 17 countries, the sources said.
    http://sandiegofreepress.org/2015/08/disposable-people-obama-the-tpp-and-the-betrayal-of-human-rights/

    3 .NZ.Action…. .Adam’s Big Buzz Wheelie Bin Protest.
    “Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to print off our ‘Hey Mr Key, can’t you see, we don’t want your bloody TPP’ images, and affix said image to your wheelie bin. But more, and here’s where things get a bit daring, and we have to say we will disavow any knowledge of your actions, if you know where a politician lives and what day their wheelie bin gets rolled out, well, we leave matters to your own initiative.”
    http://co-creatingournewearth.blogspot.co.nz/2015/08/tpp-tppa-protest-protest-all-over.html

  22. adam 22
    1 September 2015 at 2:18 pm

    4 Free Browser Tools for Privacy on the Net – Properly Paranoid

    With one of my favourite linux reviews – Nixie Pixel.

    Kiwi connection – Mega upload. Well worth the 8 minutes of your time.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM5UNy3ebKA&feature=em-subs_digest

    • weka 22.1
      1 September 2015 at 6:44 pm

      Thanks! I’ve just installed the badger one. Changed the text and font size on my browser though, which I’m not happy about.

      The standard has 30 trackers on this page. :-/

      Hey adam, can you recommend an ebook reader that isn’t evil? I had a look round last night and it seems there are some significant issues with them re privacy and secret information sharing. I’ve been using calibre, which is good for converting books, ok for reading, but really crap for managing the library. I’m on a mac.

      • adam 22.1.1
        1 September 2015 at 8:31 pm

        I have a kindle and gave up on privacy on it ages ago. Amazon is one of the worst. I was using Lucidor – http://www.lucidor.org/lucidor/ which was a bit chunky, and I have no idea about privacy. But, gave up when brought kindle.

        That said, Nixie Pixel has a tendency to go rather in depth into a topic. Ebooks will come up I’m sure – she was the person who switched me on to using linux well.

        • weka 22.1.1.1
          1 September 2015 at 8:50 pm

          thanks, I’ll see if I can follow her somewhere. When I get round to upgrading my OS I’ll probably end up using ibooks, hey ho, Apple are already spying on me etc. Not sure about DRM and books I’ve been ahem lent. I downloaded the Adobe ebook reader and it wanted me to register with them and give them access to all the ebooks on my computer. Bugger that.

          edit, just tried to install Lucidor and it needs a high level of geek than I possess.

      • lprent 22.1.2
        1 September 2015 at 11:27 pm

        Find a reader that knows OPDS, turn that on in your Calibre with password etc, then read books from calibre onto to your reader program on whatever device you have it on.

        I use fbreader on Android. But a search of whatever app store you frequent looking for OPDS will probably find a few good ones.

        • weka 22.1.2.1
          2 September 2015 at 10:44 am

          OPDS, is that something online? I need a catalogue I can use offline on my laptop.

          Have downloaded fbreader. It looks nice.

          • lprent 22.1.2.1.1
            2 September 2015 at 12:55 pm

            Once you download a book into a computer or device, it stays there and you can read it locally.

            I buy from my home systems and load (and convert) everything into Calibre into standard ePubs. Then it is available to whatever I am dealing with.

            I usually grab a set of 10 or 20 books from Calibre when I am at home on to a tablet or phone and in contract with my server via WiFi. They join the hundreds already on the the device. Makes sure I never run out of reading material.

            I can also get into the Calibre remotely if I do run out of reading, but there is a bit more security on that process.

            But it means that when my more mobile devices self-destruct or get lost, then I still have my books back home.

            • weka 22.1.2.1.1.1
              2 September 2015 at 12:59 pm

              I’m mostly reading on my laptop, although I can see using the phone more in the future. I’m happy to use Calibre to store them, but it’s not very good at organising i.e. I want something that has a better interface for me browsing my library.

  23. The Chairman 23
    1 September 2015 at 3:03 pm

    Is failing to provide medical assistance akin to torture?

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/71406797/inmate-in-pain-for-weeks-before-terminal-cancer-diagnosis

    Heads should roll.

    • McFlock 23.1
      1 September 2015 at 3:18 pm

      I think Crimes Act 1961s195 is the one:

      195 Ill-treatment or neglect of child or vulnerable adult

      (1)

      Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years who, being a person described in subsection (2), intentionally engages in conduct that, or omits to discharge or perform any legal duty the omission of which, is likely to cause suffering, injury, adverse effects to health, or any mental disorder or disability to a child or vulnerable adult (the victim) if the conduct engaged in, or the omission to perform the legal duty, is a major departure from the standard of care to be expected of a reasonable person.

      (2)

      The persons are—
      (a)

      a person who has actual care or charge of the victim; or
      (b)

      a person who is a staff member of any hospital, institution, or residence where the victim resides.

  24. Smilin 24
    1 September 2015 at 3:10 pm

    Could help but notice how much Aussie lookin our new bank notes are in design -a big thank you to Crosby Textor from Key as he looked absolutely ecstatic on tv about it.
    A new twist on the Muldoon quote about intelligence when so many enlightened brains left in droves during his reign
    Raising the level of deception created by this country in how much we owe Australian and Chinese interests there and here
    Another spin exercise by Key to keep us thinking its all positive

  25. logie97 25
    1 September 2015 at 4:22 pm

    Can you imagine the discussion in cabinet this am when they deliberated over the final four flags of choice. I bet there was not a dissenting voice – Key said what he wanted and that was that.

    And as for the fern defining us.

    We are known as Kiwi’s abroad. “Gidday Kiwi …” mmm “Gidday Punga …” Naah
    and the currency is called the Kiwi.

  26. The Chairman 26
    1 September 2015 at 10:41 pm

    Wellington is open for business and keen to attract Chinese investors, that’s the message Celia Wade-Brown will bring to China next week.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/71614150/wellington-business-opportunities-at-new-zealand-china-mayoral-forum

  27. North 27
    1 September 2015 at 11:30 pm

    What a selfish, leeching prick is that John McCaw ?…..positively feasting on Richie McKey. It’s bloody dirty really.

    Test will be whether Richie takes him aside and says “Hey bro’…..fuck off aye ?…..you’re fucking me up ! Get to London they’ll chuck me outa the bus at The Heath. That’s not my buzz man !”

    On the other hand he might choose to say “Mmmmm…..The List aye ? How high ?”

    It’s your call Richie but ya not the sorta guy that gets ‘owned’ are ya ? The pay ain’t that good either bro’.

    “OK…..Governor-General then…..please, pretty please”.

    “Oooh Fuck…..let me see”.

    Still ‘owned’ my bro’. Ya could always make a slip with the sword of course…..

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