Open mike 02/01/2023

102 comments on “Open mike 02/01/2023 ”

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1. Tony Veitch 1

   2 January 2023 at 6:11 am

   X Socialist is generally a bag of wind and quite misguided politically (S/he intended to vote Act after all) but they did make a prediction yesterday:

   This upcoming election is going to become very nasty. It may make the Springbok tour protests look like a kids event.

   https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-01-01-2023/#comment-1928942

   I certainly hope not, but s/he is right in the sense that the 23 elections could be a turning point for this country.

   On the one hand (the left one) you have a government, however imperfect, that plans for the future and has the interests of all the people as its focus.

   • Labour has almost got on top of the housing crisis which the Natz exacerbated in their 9 years,
   • an infra-structure rebuild after nine years of neglect,
   • a 3 Waters reform which will be essential to secure drinkable water for all in the future,
   • remodelling of the RMA,
   • reform of the post-code lottery health system, as well as seeing us through a massive pandemic
   • and many other ‘future-proofing’ changes.

   On the other hand (the right one) we have a ‘government-in-waiting which caused most of the above problems!

   • underfunding of the police force and closing police stations,
   • underfunding of health (not even keeping up with inflation for two years),
   • underfunding of infra-structure with an emphasis on expensive RONs,
   • education reforms (National Standards) which actually retarded learning,
   • a social welfare system which punished the already punished and deprived,
   • frivolous spending on sheep farms in Arabia and a flag referendum.
   • But, and it’s an important but – managed to give tax cuts to the rich and sell off our assets to their wealthy mates.

   Of course I don’t know what ’23 will be like except to say with certainty, climate-wise it will be worse than last year, and ’24 will be exponentially worse again.

   The last thing this country needs is a non-interventionist, ‘the market will provide’ sort of government, the sort of government we’d get with a Natz government with the Act tail wagging the dog.

   The election this year is crucial for the future of this country. I hope it does not become nasty, but there are a fair number of polarised people out there who will try to make the headlines, and a media who will welcome them.
   • dvT 1.1

     2 January 2023 at 8:07 am

     Someone produced a list of about 20ish ACT policies that would destroy the country about 2 – 3 weeks ago on the standard.

     I can't find them, they need to be shown every day.

     Can somebody find them?
     • roy cartland 1.1.1

       2 January 2023 at 9:56 am

       In more lucid posts, Bomber at TDB puts a list together. Here's one, fairly recent:

       • Māori going to the Waitangi Tribunal over cancellation of 3 waters: The moment the National/ACT Government scrap 3 Waters, Māoridom will go straight back to the Waitangi Tribunal, win the Court Case and force Luxon into his own Helen Clark moment and be forced to pass law to simply confiscate the water. This will cause an enormous eruption of violent protest.
       • Mass immigration: National will simply implement John Key’s pump and dump policy of open door immigration to inflate growth rates while causing enormous stress on the groaning underfunded infrastructure and send rents soaring. This will cause enormous social dislocation and a rise in race relation tensions.
       • Expansion of Oranga Tamariki Big Data Experiment: National created the Oranga Tamariki Frankenstein and wants more welfare decided by algorithm as a means to de-invest welfare. Luxon has already championed this model.
       • Mass Dairy intensification: It’s all National have as an economic policy.
       • Mass Property Speculation: They will remove any of the bare tinkering Labour did and help the speculators spin prices higher.
       • Mutilation of the State: ACT are serious about wanting to amputate the Ministry for Women, Youth, Māori, Pacific People and Ethnic Communities while slashing the Human Rights Commission. The resulting Public Service strikes will gridlock Wellington. If there’s one thing the Public Service can do well, it is protesting for their own interests.
       • War on Crime: Expect the paramilitary police expansion to occur quickly with a whole dump of new civil liberty breaching powers to supposedly keep us safe but will almost immediately be abused as they increasingly get used on the protesting Left.
       • Prison riot and explosion in numbers: The war on crime will see far more in prison and National prefers puritan counter productive prisons so expect them to be crammed full and explode in a seething chain reaction of prison riots once National grant Corrections new powers to beat prisoners with. Corrections are very corrupt and once they gain new powers to bash prisoners with, they’ll be some prisoner who gets beaten within an inch of his life which that will trigger prison riots.
       • Rise of more Mass Surveillance & Political violence: The protests such a radical agenda creates will demand the State turn its attention back on the Left while National supporters clutch their pearls appalled at the aggression the Left are protesting with and rally around Luxon rather than criticise the policy. They will call on Luxon to spy on the radical lefties.
       • Higher Government Debt: Luxon is no free marketeer, he believes he has 7 properties because Jesus loves him, if debt goes up to pay for the extra prisons, extra Police, extra dairy intensification, extra welfare experiments, extra fake growth, then so be it, he doesn’t care. Oh David Seymour will hate it, but he’ll be so fat and full on his amputation of 6 State agencies that he’ll only be able to mount a burp as a protest.
       • dvT 1.1.1.1

         2 January 2023 at 9:58 am

         Thanks
         • roy cartland 1.1.1.1.1

           2 January 2023 at 10:10 am

           Agree, they need to be kept in the forefront of our consciousnesses.

           As a thought experiment, what would happen if they did get in and Liz-Trussed the whole country? Put up policies so terrible that they lost chunks of support forever? Would that be worse than the left trying to 'bring everyone along together', taking ages and staying cautious?

           (Obviously, yes, in the short-term, but long term? Thoughts?)
     • dvT 1.1.2

       3 January 2023 at 7:24 am

       

       That’s just the start…

       • Cut and freeze the Minimum wage
       • Interest back on all student loans
       • No Kiwsaver subsidy
       • Cancel winter energy payment
       • Dump all climate crisis legislation
       • no more best start payments for families with new borns
       • cut welfare payments
       • no tax credits for research and development
       • cuts to working for families
       • $7b a year cut in public services
       • Abolish Maori seats

       Oh and ankle bracelets on children, don’t forget that!

       From daily blog
   • Bearded Git 1.2

     2 January 2023 at 8:59 am

     Nicely put Tony V. As I sip my beer tonight in Extramadura the election seems a long way away but soon it will be all pervasive. I think we will be ok if Winston gets 4.9 per cent. Jacinda is so much more in tune with current thinking than the dinosaur Luxon.

     But I will contemplate this more over the bottle of rioja I have in my hostal.
     Feliz nuevo año people.
     • Tony Veitch 1.2.1

       2 January 2023 at 10:28 am

       An excellent twitter thread from Michael Wood (yes, I know it was posted on The Standard only a few days ago) which details Natz underinvestment. It bears reposting!

       Labour strategists should be preparing a whole series of similar social media posts!

       https://twitter.com/michaelwoodnz/status/1607955859493228545?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1607955859493228545%7Ctwgr%5Ebe62cf598bffb5078563ede1468abcbc75c263bc%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fthestandard.org.nz%2Fthe-standards-political-awards-for-2022%2F
       • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.2.1.1

         2 January 2023 at 10:44 am

         Labour strategists should be preparing a whole series of similar social media posts!

         Absolutely and aye Michael Wood …..he sure seems to be "one" of Labours standouts . They sure need to highlight these.

         I'd add though….why dont they get Rail more activated? Just seems to be idling…along.

         For example, he questions why there’s no rail link between Christchurch and Dunedin.

         “The two main centres of the South Island do not have a train despite the fact that even using decrepit rundown rolling stock, in 2002, the timetable between Christchurch and Oamaru was the same speed as driving non-stop, despite the fact the train had to stop.”

         https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/03/06/road-to-rail-can-nz-get-back-on-track-with-rail/

         2012 !! (incl a PDF )

         https://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/research/reports/497/

         If not now…When? Along with that and others Labour needs to get motivated….and Motivating. No missteps. FOCUS.!
   • Tony Veitch 1.3

     2 January 2023 at 10:23 am

     It's a sad commentary on the capitalist 'free' world that most action (if this thread is to be believed) comes from an authoritarian, intrusive, genocidal dictatorship!

     The 'market' is obsessed with self-interest and will only respond if there's a profit!

     https://twitter.com/KyleTrainEmoji/status/1604510937557635072?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1604510937557635072%7Ctwgr%5E2b5ec67e187c4190147f11cb62ec881ff7f18fcf%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fthestandard.org.nz%2Fopen-mike-30-12-2022%2F
   • millsy 1.4

     2 January 2023 at 12:45 pm

     Yep, ACT and National being in government will lead to the greatest ratcheting down of NZ living standards since the 1991 ECA/benefit cut combo.

     We have seen huge growth in jobs and wages, and NACT will pull out all stops to keep that from happening.

     ACT want to flood the country with cheap labour to keep wages down and lock NZers out of job oppurtunities.
   • Patricia Bremner 1.5

     2 January 2023 at 7:05 pm

     Yes, this needs to be published everywhere. Thanks Tony.
2. Visubversa 2

   2 January 2023 at 9:13 am

   Say goodbye to any sort of scientific accuracy and any real information on the basis of sexual reality.

   "A recent study purporting to examine the transmission and clinical features of monkeypox in women conducted its research on a sample where nearly half of the participants were male.

   https://reduxx.info/study-exploring-monkeypox-in-women-used-sample-of-males/?fbclid=IwAR0nbAnfQiPGJkrkRCQQ72uLrdk6iz5IRgwNhw6rLjRBLEnxNSVLUTtnmNU
3. Anker 3

   2 January 2023 at 10:00 am

   Thanks for posting Visu.

   In medicine biological realty does trump personal belief (i.e. gender identity).

   It concerns me deelply how science is being penetrated by that which is not science.

   Here's an article on a different subject Matauranga Maori

   https://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.com/2022/03/graham-adams-biggest-losers-in.html

   This from Professor Garth Cooper, one of the Listener 7 who is Maori, whose has made an outstanding contribution is biochemistry, medicine and educating health professionals and students

   ”Much of my career has been focussed on kaupapa (Māori agenda) research and teaching aimed at improving Māori health care delivery and Māori science education, on marae and in hospital and medical school/university settings.

   That focus has been literal — personally designing, writing, teaching, and executing novel and successful programmes in both Māori health and education. As part of my commitment to these objectives, I served on the national Health Research Council, including six years’ service on Te Komiti Māori with further years advising on Māori health development.

   While treating many Māori in diabetes clinics, I turned my focus to kaupapa diabetes research, since this disease is a leading cause of disability and death amongst Māori. Inter alia, this work entailed visiting marae throughout the country to inform and seek endorsement of iwi.

   With much dismay, I have been witnessing a recent profound undermining of the meaning of science in New Zealand, now under way with the introduction of mātauranga Māori education as having parity with sciences including mathematics, chemistry, biology, and physics.”
   • Visubversa 3.1

     2 January 2023 at 12:20 pm

     I think it is also about knowing what is a hardware problem and what is a software problem. And having appropriate treatments for each,
     • Sacha 3.1.1

       2 January 2023 at 12:51 pm

       And not mistaking software interfaces as a hardware problem.
       • Molly 3.1.1.1

         2 January 2023 at 1:06 pm

         For the determinedly unaware:

         https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/nov/13/the-female-problem-male-bias-in-medical-trials

         https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8812498/
         • Sacha 3.1.1.1.1

           2 January 2023 at 1:12 pm

           Sex is highly relevant in medicine. Less so in other areas, for the wilfully unaware.
           • Molly 3.1.1.1.1.1

             2 January 2023 at 1:18 pm

             Medical context being the initial comment that Anker responded to – albeit – not numbered as a Reply:

             https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02-01-2023/#comment-1928965

             Hence,

             "Thanks for posting Visu.

             In medicine biological realty does trump personal belief (i.e. gender identity).

             It concerns me deelply how science is being penetrated by that which is not science."
             • Sacha …

               2 January 2023 at 1:22 pm

               Treating the whole person means taking into account the social relationships they are part of, as well as their physical body.

               Let's not miscast the social as some sort of individual 'belief'.
               • Molly …

                 2 January 2023 at 1:24 pm

                 Focus…
               • weka …

                 2 January 2023 at 1:48 pm

                 Treating the whole person means taking into account the social relationships they are part of, as well as their physical body.

                 Let's not miscast the social as some sort of individual 'belief'.

                 Sure. The problem is why this is no longer allowed for female people.
                 • Sabine …

                   2 January 2023 at 4:05 pm

                   That thing that gave birth to all the humans in the world is nothing.

                   Nothing that needs a clearly defined word to describe it.

                   Its nothing more then a feel in mans underpants.

                   Nothing more then a castration, a drilled hole in the nether regions of some bloke.

                   It does not need special medical care, it does not need its own studies. It does not need its own spaces.

                   It is just a thought an ejaculation a thrill in the heart of a man. Funny, that …. cause that is what it always was.

                   Lucky us that the left and the right agrees on that, otherwise issues could arise. But rejoice, the all the parties agree that men are women, and people who are not men need to suck it up and shut up. Grin it and bear it. Put up with is. Get used to it. Get on with the program.

                   Cause men are women and sometimes both.
               • Anker …

                 2 January 2023 at 5:27 pm

                 IN medicine, sometimes the physical body trumps belief.

                 Medics are there to diagnose and treat pathology. That is the main purpose they serve for us. Yes bedside manner and considering social factors can be important, but not necessarily where the Dr will focus or have time to focus.
           • weka 3.1.1.1.1.2

             2 January 2023 at 1:43 pm

             Sex is highly relevant in medicine. Less so in other areas, for the wilfully unaware.

             Says a man, to women

             🙄
             • Sacha …

               2 January 2023 at 1:47 pm

               Whatever makes you feel better.
               • weka …

                 2 January 2023 at 1:48 pm

                 stop trolling.
                 • Sacha …

                   2 January 2023 at 1:53 pm

                   When you define believing that gender is not the same as sex as 'trolling' there is nowhere to go really. It's shame that a labour movement blog has come to this, but here we are.

                   [“Says a man, to women” <– political point by a feminist

                   “Whatever makes you feel better.” <– wind up comment from someone who should know better

                   It’s your behaviour that’s the problem, not your arguments elsewhere in the thread. 

                   As a mod, I don’t care what you think about TS, or gender/sex. I care about the nature of the debate. You’ve said plenty of other things in this conversation that aren’t trolling, but you also drop in these troll comments amongst that. I’m telling you to stop.

                   I’ve moderated you for similar in the past, and that was after noticing a pattern of behaviour over time. You know how this goes. https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-19-11-2022/#comment-1921949 – weka]
                   • weka …

                     2 January 2023 at 2:06 pm

                     mod note.
                   • Sacha …

                     2 January 2023 at 2:28 pm

                     I'm increasingly responding to whatever is driving these beliefs rather than the surface content and I apologise that it reads as trolling.

                     When I said that (biological) sex is relevant in medicine but not as much in other policy areas, you turned that into 'man' vs 'women'. To me those are not the same as male and female, so there is really nowhere productive to go.

                     I really do wish you and others find more peace this year.
                   • weka []

                     2 January 2023 at 2:43 pm

                     I have no problem you bringing your politics here Sacha, even where I disagree with them. But the windup comments have to stop. If you had a problem with my pointed sound bite comment about men telling women how to do their politics, then say that and address it. The pattern of digs is the trolling.
                   • weka []

                     2 January 2023 at 2:46 pm

                     When I said that (biological) sex is relevant in medicine but not as much in other policy areas, you turned that into ‘man’ vs ‘women’. To me those are not the same as male and female

                     I think you misunderstood my comment. I didn’t turn your comment into man vs women. I was pointing to you as a man thinking you get to redefine women’s reality.

                     You know that I use the terms woman and female interchangeably to mean biologically female women (whether talking about biology or social aspects). Most people still use the term woman to refer to female people. That’s how English works.

                     I know what the differences are between gender and sex. If what you mean is that you can’t tolerate people talking about gender and sex that way, I am simply not willing to give up women’s language because of gender identity ideology.

                     But this is the problem with sound bite comments, and I will try and not match yours with mine, because it inhibits conversation.

                     To be very clear, when I said “Says a man, to women” what I meant is that it’s hugely problematic that left wing men now think they get to tell women how to do our own politics. It’s not new, but the number of men doing it is, men who used to be allies. And I’m talking about both sex and gender.

                     Obviously sex is important in medicine. It’s important in many other areas as well. I pushed back against your comment that it’s not. Men don’t get to tell women what is important to us.
     • Anker 3.1.2

       2 January 2023 at 1:01 pm

       I am sorry I am not sure what you mean by referring to hardware and software in terms of the science Matauranga Maori debate.

       Of course the Listener 7 were not trying to have Mataraunga Maori cancelled. They said it was vital for local and cultural practices and had a role in policy (sorry not a direct quote, but its in the article).

       One of the Professors , Robert Nola who is now deceased spent 45 years of his career studying, researching and writing about the Philosophy of Science. I take this to mean he focussed on what makes science science (but will stand corrected on this).

       Here is a quote from him published in the NZ Herald. I think it relates to the science/Matauranga Maori debate, but also gender ideology and the article you posted earlier Visu (sorry if I have slightly derailed your comment, but I think the issues are related)

       In late 2016, soon after Donald Trump won the US Presidency, Dr Nola wrote in the NZ Herald to warn about “post-truth”. As he put it:

       “This new, fancy word tells us: ‘Objective facts are less influential in shaping public opinion than appeals to emotion and personal belief.’ No need for truth, it is yesteryear’s notion…

       “Insofar as studies in humanities have not resisted the views of post-truthers, too bad for humanities. But what of science? It would be quite alien for science to reject the search for truth and evidence, the core of its critical methods.

       “In science we have models of what the rational approach to believing ought to be. If followed, they are an important way to keep the post-truth era from engulfing us.”

       Less than five years later, it has become clear that Dr Nola’s warning has fallen on deaf ears. As the firestorm over the professors’ letter shows, New Zealand science is indeed being engulfed by the post-modern mantra that there is no such thing as objective truth.’

       It is also clear that anyone who dissents must be silenced.
       https://pointofordernz.wordpress.com/2021/08/03/the-attacks-on-seven-eminent-professors-over-a-listener-letter-in-which-they-championed-science-have-missed-their-target/
       • Sacha 3.1.2.1

         2 January 2023 at 1:05 pm

         Thank you for adding the link.

         Less than five years later, it has become clear that Dr Nola’s warning has fallen on deaf ears. As the firestorm over the professors’ letter shows, New Zealand science is indeed being engulfed by the post-modern mantra that there is no such thing as objective truth.’

         It is also clear that anyone who dissents must be silenced.

         Aren’t these also part of the section you have quoted?
         • Sacha 3.1.2.1.1

           2 January 2023 at 1:10 pm

           Modernism said there is only one truth. That suited the old white men in power.

           Postmodernism basically says the truth is political. People threatened by that have tried to paint it as meaning anything goes. Don't be a tool.
           • Molly 3.1.2.1.1.1

             2 January 2023 at 1:13 pm

             What do YOU say?

             (Apart from this: "Don't be a tool."?)
             • Sacha …

               2 January 2023 at 1:15 pm

               The truth is political. And don't be a tool for other people's interests.
               • Anker …

                 2 January 2023 at 1:22 pm

                 I am afraid this makes no sense to me Sacha.

                 I don't know what you mean by the truth is polticial. Whose truth? Donald Trumps? Christopher Luxon over boot camps?

                 My interest in this area is science. I am an aethiest and good science is what I trust (afterall we were all told to follow the science during the pandemic). I am not following anyone elses interests.
                 • Sacha …

                   2 January 2023 at 1:23 pm

                   I can see you believe that. Go well this year.
               • Molly …

                 2 January 2023 at 1:23 pm

                 That pespective explains a lot.

                 The determination to ascertain a "political truth" to suit personal politics negates any impediments, and creates political heretics.
                 • Sacha …

                   2 January 2023 at 1:25 pm

                   Politics is just about negotiating power. Always has been. Some people prefer to individualise the collectives involved. I guess it makes the world seem simpler.
                   • Molly …

                     2 January 2023 at 1:34 pm

                     This is pretty vague and generalised.

                     The burble did not obscure the barely disguised insult though.

                     You could work harder on either clarity or obfuscation, depending on what your intent is.

                     eg. Mine was to respond with half-interested dismissal of your effort, and then probably to leave to do other more interesting activities.

                     How did I do?
                   • Sacha …

                     2 January 2023 at 1:34 pm

                     half-arsed, you say
                   • Molly …

                     2 January 2023 at 1:42 pm

                     You psychic!… in my head I did say that in regarding your effort.

                     "half-interested" still stands as regarding my response.

                     (Due to past interactions, there seems little gained to participate in good faith exchanges with you. So "half-interested" is an accurate description of occasionally testing the waters to see if there is improvement.)
                   • Sacha …

                     2 January 2023 at 1:45 pm

                     Such a selfless sacrifice
               • Nic the NZer …

                 2 January 2023 at 10:14 pm

                 Postmodernism developed this idea that the truth is political as a branch of literary criticism, particularly from the concept that the authors intention could be safely ignored and instead the readers interpretation could be taken as the meaning of a text. But there are plenty of areas where such an approach to meaning simply falls apart (basically anything which isn't fiction).

                 Lets for a moment assume the truth is political has some meaning. Why then do we have a court of appeal? Surely the courts heard the case and made a decision (a political one) on the truth already. What grounds could there possibly be for an appeal?
           • Anker 3.1.2.1.1.2

             2 January 2023 at 1:18 pm

             Well I don't agree with the post modern view that truth is political. It can be I guess, but that is very black and white thinking.

             I think Trump is a good example of "truth" being political.

             But science provides protection from this. Sceince is about evidence and gathering and researching evidence requires the scientific metholody.

             One of the reasons I often quote the Dunedin Longitutidinal study is that there evidence gathering and research approach means their findings are sound.

             If you can answer the software hardware question, that would be great, but no problem if you are busy.
         • Anker 3.1.2.1.2

           2 January 2023 at 1:13 pm

           Sorry I am not as sophisticated as others on this site in terms of using links.

           I generally post the quote first, post my comment and then copy and past the link (even though it has already been published)

           I am a bit lost by your question "aren;t. these part of the section you have quoted?"

           Yes I quoted Professor Nola from his article after Trump was elected. The whole article is worth reading.
           • Sacha 3.1.2.1.2.1

             2 January 2023 at 1:17 pm

             Thanks for explaining.

             You have marked the other sentences differently, but not those last two. They are also quoted from the blog, but not the Herald article.

             There is a useful quote button on the toolbar in this editor that makes it extra clear the words are quoted, not written by ourselves.
             • Anker …

               2 January 2023 at 1:24 pm

               Ok well I couldn't get the Herald because its behind the paywall. Just to be clear, I quoted from the blog. Highly likely the Herald edited the article.

               The Msm have been remiss in their coverage of this issue (my opinion).

               This is unfortunate
               • Sacha …

                 2 January 2023 at 1:29 pm

                 The blog is from August 2021. What makes this topic so relevant to you today?
                 • Anker …

                   2 January 2023 at 5:16 pm

                   The issue remains unressolved. Professor Cooper and Robert Nola both resigned from the Royal Society (Professor Nola has since died).

                   Their free speech and academic freedom was shut down.

                   I feel very strongly about these issues.

                   Also my understanding is that Richard Dawkins is coming to NZ this year.

                   He was highly critical of the Royal Society.
                 • Anker …

                   2 January 2023 at 6:12 pm

                   https://convincingreasons.wordpress.com/2022/04/19/how-not-to-conduct-a-scientific-debate-royal-society-university-split-over-matauranga-maori-and-science/

                   “The decision by the Royal Society not to proceed with its ‘investigation’ is a welcome development. The scientific and philosophical questions remain unresolved – in fact, still largely unaddressed at this point – but at least a measure of political space in which to discuss and debate them has been forced open.” This from James Robb, who happens to be one of the founders of the new Workers now party

                   “Mauri is a Maori term. The website contains a Glossary which defines mauri as “The vital essence, life force of everything: be it a physical object, living thing or ecosystem. In Chemistry and Biology, mauri refers to the health and life-sustaining capacity of the taiao, on biological, physical, and chemical levels.”

                   Now, it is fundamentally unscientific to attribute ‘vital essence’ or ‘life force’ to all matter. Life is a particular form of motion of matter which is only present in living things. While life may ultimately be explainable in terms of complex chemical processes, life cannot be reduced to those chemical processes; nor do all chemical processes constitute life. Life has its own laws of motion. This is why biology, the study of living things, is not simply a branch of chemistry. To blur the distinction between chemical and biological forms of motion in nature can only obstruct the study of both disciplines, and of the points of connection between them.”
                   From James Robb when talking about science and the NCEA syllabus
                   • Sacha …

                     4 January 2023 at 12:11 pm

                     All matter is energy (e=mc2). He's not being very scientific.
                   • Anker …

                     5 January 2023 at 2:44 pm

                     But not all energy is life force.
                   • weka …

                     5 January 2023 at 3:19 pm

                     I see three main things about this.

                     1. the concept of mauri applied to western science here might be better understood as the philosophy of science. Unfortunately his link doesn’t go to where what he is quoting, so it’s hard to put his post in context.
                     2. the western mind doesn’t easily understand the concept of mauri. I’m doubtful that Robb understands it. You can’t grasp if from a dictionary definition or glossary, although that helps. I can’t see how “it is fundamentally unscientific to attribute ‘vital essence’ or ‘life force’ to all matter” but not also say it is “fundamentally unscientific to say ‘vital essence’ or ‘life force’ isn’t in all matte”. How would we know?
                     3. his ideas about what life is come from a specific cultural context and belief system (i.e. western science). I can’t see how he can legitimately claim to be omniscient about what life is, but it’s clear he is using a different definition of life from Māori but he doesn’t realise that he is. Which leaves us with whether it’s ok to introduce different culture’s philosophy of science, or whether we should restrict education to only one, the dominant one.

                     There’s no reason why his statement about how WS understands life can’t be taught alongside other beliefs. Personally, I think they should be differentiated, but again, I haven’t seen the document he is referring to so it’s hard to say what is going on.
                   • Anker …

                     5 January 2023 at 4:29 pm

                     Not sure if you will get this Weka as no reply button under your comment.

                     I couldn't agree more that MM and science should be differentiated (by this I mean taught separately). This was also what the Listener 7 thought too. There main beef with the NCEA syllabus was that students where being told science colonises so is therefore bad.

                     Professor Garth Cooper who is Maori, particularly objected to it as he thought it would put Maori students off studying science.

                     This from Professor Garth Cooper, one of the Listener 7 who is Maori, whose has made an outstanding contribution is biochemistry, medicine and educating health professionals and students

                     ”Much of my career has been focussed on kaupapa (Māori agenda) research and teaching aimed at improving Māori health care delivery and Māori science education, on marae and in hospital and medical school/university settings.

                     That focus has been literal — personally designing, writing, teaching, and executing novel and successful programmes in both Māori health and education. As part of my commitment to these objectives, I served on the national Health Research Council, including six years’ service on Te Komiti Māori with further years advising on Māori health development.

                     While treating many Māori in diabetes clinics, I turned my focus to kaupapa diabetes research, since this disease is a leading cause of disability and death amongst Māori. Inter alia, this work entailed visiting marae throughout the country to inform and seek endorsement of iwi.

                     With much dismay, I have been witnessing a recent profound undermining of the meaning of science in New Zealand, now under way with the introduction of mātauranga Māori education as having parity with sciences including mathematics, chemistry, biology, and physics.”
                   • weka []

                     5 January 2023 at 4:52 pm

                     I couldn’t agree more that MM and science should be differentiated (by this I mean taught separately).

                     That’s the opposite of what I said. I said that there’s no reason they can’t be taught alongside each other, but recognising both. But it means differentiating WS philosophy from other culture’s philosophy, and for that to happen western scientists would have to recognise that WS science is a specific thing.

                     Btw, Mātauranga Māori doesn’t mean Māori science. It means Māori knowledge, wisdom, understanding, skill.

                     https://maoridictionary.co.nz/search?idiom=&phrase=&proverb=&loan=&histLoanWords=&keywords=matauranga

                     MM can be applied across many disciplines. Like WS, it is also its own thing and I would guess that many people in this debate arguing for siloing it don’t in fact understand what that thing is (some apparently also don’t understand what WS is, instead thinking of WS as all science as if sciences don’t have a cultural and historical context).

                     Your Garth Cooper quote is basically an assertion “western science is being undermined”. In the quote he doesn’t support that assertion with an explanation nor evidence. It’s his belief.

                     I think there are problems in the changes, but not because Māori knowledge shouldn’t be taught alongside Western ideas. As I’ve said, re the philosophy of science, we could all be learning what mauri is as well as reductionist science methods, tools and frameworks. That would enhance us all.
                   • pat …

                     5 January 2023 at 5:57 pm

                     It appears to me that Mauri is more akin to religion than science.

                     We have religious freedom so if anyone desires to adhere to a dogma that is fine, so long as it dosnt become a requirement.
                   • weka []

                     5 January 2023 at 7:02 pm

                     It appears to me that Mauri is more akin to religion than science.

                     How so? Isn’t religion about worshipping god? Understanding concepts of mauri doesn’t require one to do that.

                     As I argued above, one can see it as a philosophy of science sitting alongside other beliefs eg that so called inert things like rocks don’t have a life force.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     5 January 2023 at 6:04 pm

                     "It appears…"
                   • pat …

                     5 January 2023 at 6:17 pm

                     It does.
                   • pat …

                     5 January 2023 at 7:36 pm

                     "How so? Isn’t religion about worshipping god? "

                     Not at all …religion is about conforming to social norms and/or the projection of control (power)….gods are incidental.

                     Religion is a social construct for a purpose (the purpose may be altruistic but not necessarily so)….science (as understood by western concept) is about challenge , the antithesis of doctrine/dogma.

                     And ne'er the twain shall meet
                   • weka []

                     5 January 2023 at 7:47 pm

                     how does the concept of mauri fit into your definition of religion?
                   • pat …

                     5 January 2023 at 8:04 pm

                     Mauri is the basis of a belief system….a notion undisputed by adherents.

                     There is no challenge, it is overseen/interpreted by a priesthood.

                     That is not to say the objectives are not altruistic but it is not subject to dispute by the masses….or subject to proof/replication.

                     This is a dispute that occured in europe hundreds of years ago during the reformation… the church ultimately lost.

                     Some, I stress some. Maori are strict adherents of the concept of Mauri, but as with most religions the majority pay lip service….and fair enough too.

                     As said earlier. I have no problem with individuals choosing their belief system, I do however take issue with a requirement to prescription…as should you…the abortion debate in the US is a prime example of the downside.
                   • weka []

                     5 January 2023 at 8:17 pm

                     where’s the prescription happening?

                     I would say that mauri is a concept that describes something about life on earth. Some people make that a religious thing, but it’s not inherently. Some people also make aspects of Western science into a quasi religious thing (eg science is the one true way of knowing), but it’s not inherently.

                     I think you are describing some of the ways that people interact with the concept, which I think is useful to further understanding. However my interaction with people talking about mauri hasn’t demonstrated dogma, and I’ve never come across the priests who supposedly enforce it and through who it must be interpreted. Who are you referring to exactly?
                   • pat …

                     5 January 2023 at 8:28 pm

                     "I would say that mauri is a concept that describes something about life on earth"

                     And that description can be applied to any and all religions

                     "and I’ve never come across the priests who supposedly enforce it and through who it must be interpreted."

                     As with western society the 'priests' who determine that which is acceptable are the elites…at least in the western concept those 'elites' can be voted out.
                   • weka []

                     5 January 2023 at 8:36 pm

                     And that description can be applied to any and all religions

                     Can also be applied to philosophy and science /shrug

                     As with western society the ‘priests’ who determine that which is acceptable are the elites…at least in the western concept those ‘elites’ can be voted out.

                     Who are you talking about? Without that being specified, it’s just random vague assertions.
                   • pat …

                     5 January 2023 at 9:02 pm

                     Maori society is hierarchical and lineage is paramount….that cannot be in dispute…there is nothing vague about that, If we are to organise our society on the basis of the 'religion' of an unelected elite then we have regressed to aristocratic feudalism.

                     Whereas we cannot apply the same criticism to 'philosophy' or 'science'…there is no requirement for lineage in those fields in (current) western ideology….only proof.

                     This highlights why the separation of religion from the state is so important…by all means provide space and freedom of belief, but it must be removed from governance as otherwise we cannot avoid the intrusion of religious belief into others lives…and that is a recipe for conflict….and we already have more than enough provocations for conflict without needlessly adding to them.
                   • weka []

                     5 January 2023 at 10:16 pm

                     it’s completely vague. That or you are in the 1800s. Iwi have elections and everything now. Here’s Kāi Tahu’s governance structure https://ngaitahu.iwi.nz/te-runanga-o-ngai-tahu/ngai-tahu-governance/

                     I’ve not seen anyone suggest that mauri is about an unelected elite imposing relgion, apart from you. And you’ve yet to bring any evidence to the table.

                     The basis of philosophy is making a coherent argument that stands up to scrutiny.

                     We’re not talking governance in this subthread, we’re talking about whether and how Māori knowledge can be taught alongside western science in school curriculums. The argument I’ve seen against this is that Māori knowledge cannot be science, but no ‘proof’ has been provided. Your argument is a tangent.
                   • pat …

                     6 January 2023 at 3:11 pm

                     "I’ve not seen anyone suggest that mauri is about an unelected elite imposing relgion, apart from you. "

                     Then you obviously havnt been looking…I would be surprised if no one else had equated the concept of Mauri with religion and indeed a 2 minute search found examples.

                     "But wondering how the effects of wastewater discharges on “mauri” is measured and who does the measuring lands us smack bang in the middle of the science versus mātauranga Māori debate."

                     https://pointofordernz.wordpress.com/2022/01/11/we-can-gauge-volumes-of-water-and-count-contaminants-but-measuring-the-mauri-may-be-challenging-for-modern-scientists/

                     and

                     https://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff-nation/125940471/science-cant-be-pkeh-or-mori-its-just-science

                     And tangental?…hardly, education is highly political and that which is taught (and how) is designed to shape society….I am surprised that you should seek to silo your thinking when we are discussing systems…or perhaps I am not.

                     There is no issue with examining Ta Ao Maori in our education system just as there is no problem with examining any culture/ belief system but to attempt to make it the foundation of our political process is both foolish and dangerous.
       • Molly 3.1.2.2

         2 January 2023 at 1:30 pm

         Hey, Anker.

         Hope you have recovered from Covid, and managed to have a good celebratory Christmas and New Year.
         • Anker 3.1.2.2.1

           2 January 2023 at 1:43 pm

           Thanks Molly. Yep all good now (in time for xmas). Was put on anti biotics in the end but I have no idea if they worked. Dr also prescribed vitamin D.

           It was rubbish at the time, but when you are well again, being sick fades into the past. Don't want to get covid again. I think the pandemic is far from over.

           Hope all is well with you and yours!

           Happy New Year to you Molly and all on the Standard
           • Molly 3.1.2.2.1.1

             3 January 2023 at 8:29 am

             Glad to hear. All the best for 2023!
             • Anker …

               4 January 2023 at 11:08 am

               And for you too Molly!
4. Hunter Thompson II 4

   2 January 2023 at 10:13 am

   Greetings to all TS contributors.

   As we start 2023, remember that the best things in life are free – a rosy sunset, the sound of wind in the trees, an unexpected act of kindness from a stranger, a visit from a friend.

   Let's keep hold of the things that matter.
   • PsyclingLeft.Always 4.1

     2 January 2023 at 10:53 am

     Hi, for sure ! If I may….I would add riding a Bike. (many are free as give aways) Can be a Time machine..to transport back to those childhood days….of heading off somewhere, on your Bike : )
   • Anne 4.2

     2 January 2023 at 11:27 am

     Couldn't agree more HT ll, but we have a generation or two of young people who are growing up with their eyes permanently glued to bits of plastic held in their hands and who never see the sunset, the trees and society passing by. I fear they will become morose, socially inept adults unable to contemplate anything of real worth.

     It does not auger well for a fully rounded and informed future society.
     • PsyclingLeft.Always 4.2.1

       2 January 2023 at 11:37 am

       Hi Anne. Happy New year : ) I could add….that for at "least" a decade kids havent really biked to school. (when my boys went..the Bike stands were full ! Seem to be dropped off in cars..or Remue…."tractors". Whether its a safety thing? Convenience? (I dont want to say ..laziness : (

       Anyway…some of us are trying

       Priority 1: Get kids biking to school

       https://can.org.nz/2020priorities
       • Stephen D 4.2.1.1

         2 January 2023 at 11:55 am

         The kids I teach would be more likely to ride to school if it was safer.

         My wish is for separate cycle lanes on major roads within 2 km of every sch.
         • Visubversa 4.2.1.1.1

           2 January 2023 at 12:49 pm

           Absolutely – I was involved for a while in efforts to cut down the "chaos at the school gate" as many parents disregarded all safety rules in a desperate attempt to stop "Little Lord Fauntleroy" from having to walk more than 10m from the school gate to the waiting car. They double parked, they waited on the yellow lines beside the pedestrian crossings, and bitterly resented any attempt to move them a little bit up the street. In some cases, the school staff were issued with evidential quality, time and date stamped cameras to record culprits and send the videos off to the local Police.

           Many of the children said that they would happily walk, but there were things that worried them. Most of these were easy fixes like cutting back vegetation over footpaths or walkways, or a couple of visits from Animal Control for unfenced dogs. Some required better pedestrian crossings – and also traffic calming on the surrounding residential streets. It required a lot of talking to children, and in some cases actually walking with them.

           In the end – we found that walking school buses were one of the best fixes. It worked really well in places where there was a larger immigrant population and there were grandparents or "aunties" who were able to volunteer as drivers and conductors. This was a win/win/win as it integrated them into the local community and with the help of the school, into the school community as well. I visited one school in order to walk back with one of the 3 afternoon "bus" routes. The volunteers gathered in the staffroom before departure and there seemed to be an awful lot going on, in at least 5 languages, as opportunities were taken for distribution of sundry civic and health information to this "captive" audience. The bell rang and everybody filed out to their respective "departure points, the children lined up, and off they went.
           • Stephen D 4.2.1.1.1.1

             2 January 2023 at 1:18 pm

             Walking School Buses are brilliant.

             The problem we have more is the Year 7&8s. Too “grown up “ for the Walking School Bus, can be too immature for main roads. Secondary school kids, fine.
   • Sacha 4.3

     2 January 2023 at 1:13 pm

     Let's keep hold of the things that matter

     Yes please.
   • Patricia Bremner 4.4

     2 January 2023 at 7:15 pm

     Having healthy happy people round a table with enough to share, and good music.

     Have a great 2023.
5. joe90 5

   2 January 2023 at 11:46 am

   Good riddance.

   https://twitter.com/shailjapatel/status/1609282521845608448

   https://web.archive.org/web/20090309192701/https://time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1883598,00.html
6. joe90 6

   2 January 2023 at 2:13 pm

   Breaking shit and disrupting people's lives won't win hearts and minds. Who knew?

   /

   Extinction Rebellion (XR) says it has taken a decision to "temporarily shift away from public disruption" as a tactic to highlight its cause.

   The climate protest group said in a statement entitled "We Quit" that it wanted to become more inclusive by broadening its appeal to focus on the issues affecting the planet rather than alienating people through stunts and direct action.

   https://news.sky.com/story/extinction-rebellion-to-temporarily-shift-away-from-public-disruption-12777788
   • weka 6.1

     2 January 2023 at 2:20 pm

     they weren't trying to win hearts and minds. They were trying to shift the public consciousness on climate. They succeeded. XR have been massively influential in changing awareness of the climate crisis.

     Haven't read the full statement yet, but looks like they're shifting focus to those in power (in the gif). Good move.

     https://twitter.com/XRebellionUK/status/1609349854391635968
     • joe90 6.1.1

       2 January 2023 at 2:25 pm

       They succeeded.

       Cite?
       • weka 6.1.1.1

         2 January 2023 at 2:31 pm

         don't have a citation handy, but I was already writing about climate at TS when XR broke onto the scene and it was easy to track the change. In MSM, on SM, on TS, in my own life, and talking to Brits online.

         Not the only influence of course, some MSM (eg the Guardian) were already centering climate in their reporting. SS4C and Thunberg were also very influential. XR in the UK brought a whole new strategy and energy to the public debate, and made people recognise the urgency of the situation.

         I think the shift in strategy is well timed (overdue tbh, covid changed people's tolerances). Am guessing that also a factor is the Tory government's law restricting protest.
         • joe90 6.1.1.1.1

           2 January 2023 at 2:38 pm

           Am guessing that also a factor is the Tory government's law restricting protest.

           Or after four years, and by their own admission, very little has changed. Emissions continue to rise and our planet is dying at an accelerated rate.
           • weka 6.1.1.1.1.1

             2 January 2023 at 2:49 pm

             there's a difference between changes in public consciousness/awareness, and action on emissions and ecology.

             Their first sentence is,

             When XR burst onto the scene four years ago, few could have imagined the seismic shift it would bring about in the climate movement, the climate conversation, and the world at large.

             That's the shift I am talking about. It was necessary and was/is insufficient. That's what they are pointing to.

             Now that we have the awareness, the strategy needs to change because it hasn't led to a change in action by those in power (or not enough action).
7. Belladonna 7

   2 January 2023 at 10:00 pm

   Reports of a new Covid variant – XBB15 – surging throughout the US and UK (probably elsewhere – but the reports are coming from those countries).
   Biggest concern isn't the high infection rate (we've got use to that with Omicron) – but the surge in hospitalization rates.

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/experts-raise-concerns-as-new-xbb15-covid-strain-rips-through-us-and-uk/53LISVYUYJGF7EUP572K5XYA3I/

   While XBB15 doesn’t appear to cause different symptoms to other strains, and while there is limited evidence regarding whether it is more severe, it is believed it comes with mutations that may help it evade vaccines and boosters, in turn causing more breakthrough cases.

   New York has been suffering the largest Covid-19 hospitalisation in almost a year. And it’s not coming down quickly like in recent Omicron waves.
   • Anne 7.1

     2 January 2023 at 10:44 pm

     Shit! So it's about to start all over again.
     • weka 7.1.1

       2 January 2023 at 11:00 pm

       never stopped, most places are just in denial.
       • Anne 7.1.1.1

         2 January 2023 at 11:15 pm

         I was referring to the possibility of further restrictions if the situation deteriorates too much. The need for further mandates or something akin to them.

         I note that masks are increasingly being worn again in my local supermarket which is a good thing. I never stopped.
         • weka 7.1.1.1.1

           3 January 2023 at 7:21 am

           good to hear. Hardly anyone wears a mask here.

           Not sure about further mandates/restrictions. Nor what's happening with filtering air inside. Many places globally seem to be in heavy denial.
         • Sacha 7.1.1.1.2

           3 January 2023 at 1:03 pm

           Helps to think of them as protections rather than restrictions.
           • Anne 7.1.1.1.2.1

             3 January 2023 at 1:24 pm

             So correct. And PM Jacinda Ardern, Minsters Hipkins and Verral plus numerous health experts spent 2 years constantly trying to get that message through with only middling success.

             But when, in statistical terms, nearly half the population have an IQ level of less than the average (which I believe is around 100) then it isn't surprising.
             • Sacha …

               3 January 2023 at 1:38 pm

               Media quickly adopted the right-wing framing of 'restrictions', with no visible pushback.
   • weka 7.2

     2 January 2023 at 11:03 pm

     have you seen anything about the R number?
     • weka 7.2.1

       2 January 2023 at 11:08 pm

       by which I mean meaningful discussion and analysis with respect to the ongoing nature of the pandemic.

       There are some bits in this, I hadn't realised our rate of past infection was so high.

       We estimate that 81% of people in New Zealand have been infected at least once as of December 12 (Figure 6.1). Effective R, computed using cases, hospitalizations, and deaths, is greater than 1 in 11
       countries and five subnational locations. Effective R in New Zealand was 1.2 on December 1 (Figure 7.1)

       https://www.healthdata.org/sites/default/files/covid_briefs/72_briefing_New_Zealand.pdf
       • Belladonna 7.2.1.1

         3 January 2023 at 10:13 am

         Struggling to find actual R number data — the reports are simply saying significantly more infectious than Omicron.

         However, all of the reports appear to be quoting Eric Feigl Ding – as the expert concerned – based off a tweet of what he claims is unreleased CDC data. [Edit to confirm that CDC have now released the data and it supports his claims]

         https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1608704548536975360

         He doesn't give the actual R figures – but quotes infection rates

         in fact, when @JPWeilandfirst modeled #XBB15 before Xmas, the data shows XBB15 was 108% faster than the previously king #BQ1 variant. But with more data, XBB15 has further accelerated to now being 120% faster!

         https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1608706233460228101

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