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Open Mike 02/02/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, February 2nd, 2019 - 252 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

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252 comments on “Open Mike 02/02/2019 ”

  1. Jenny - How to get there? 1

    Shane Jones must go.

    Expelled from Cabinet and Banished to the back benches. Or even dropped from the NZ First list, and replaced with someone less compromised, would be preferable,

    The Prime Minister must act.

    And Winston Peters must accept it.

    Breaching Cabinet Rules to defend his corporate backers, is just one step too far.

    Shane Jones: now pimping for Sealords

    • Wayne 1.1

      Why must he go now?

      What has what his role in Labour and his former role in fisheries got to to do with being a current NZ First Minister.

      You need to explain more about what he is doing wrong now.

      • James 1.1.1

        This might be it Wayne :


        Nice having government ministers have your back and only for 10k.

        Of course he won’t go and there is nothing Jacinda can do about it.

      • Jenny - How to get there? 1.1.2

        Wayne 1.1
        2 February 2019 at 7:53 am
        Why must he go now?

        What has what his role in Labour and his former role in fisheries got to to do with being a current NZ First Minister.

        You need to explain more about what he is doing wrong now.

        Hi Wayne, it is pretty clear.

        Breaching Cabinet rules to influence a New Zealand court hearing, and using his influence in government to get his long time corporate backers removed from an international blacklist.

        This is Ministerial wrongdoing and corrupt influence peddling on a scale that can’t be ignored.

        To do so would be to compromise any government attempt to regulate corporate polluters or other profit driven environmental despoilers.

        The Amaltal Apollo, a vessel owned by a subsidiary of Talley’s, is facing 14 charges for fishing in protected waters in the Tasman Sea.

        And Cabinet rules clearly state: “Ministers do not comment on or involve themselves in the investigation of offences or the decision as to whether a person should be prosecuted.”

        “I think there’s no question that Jones has breached the Cabinet Manual, which is the rules that govern the behaviour of Ministers,” Mr Norman said.


        Press Release: Greenpeace New Zealand
        Greenpeace is calling on the New Zealand Government to stop supporting dubious fishing activities after it tried to get a Talley’s fishing boat taken off a global blacklist of illegal fishing vessels during an international fisheries meeting in the Hague.

        Talley’s fishing vessel, Amaltal Apollo, was caught doing 14 bottom trawls for orange roughy in a protected area of the Tasman Sea, and will now be placed on a draft global blacklist of illegal, unreported and unregulated (IUU) fishing vessels by the South Pacific Regional Fisheries Management Organisation (SPRFMO). Talley’s faces 14 charges that will be heard in court in Nelson next month.

        Greenpeace New Zealand Executive Director, Dr Russel Norman, says evidence shows the Talley’s vessel conducted a series of bottom trawls in a well established protected area of the high seas.

        “The New Zealand Government was pushing hard to get the Talley’s vessel off the international IUU blacklist of disreputable fishing vessels, in spite of SPRFMO Compliance and Technical Committee finding that the Talley’s vessel was involved in IUU activities,” he says.

        “Other countries at the meeting objected, and the result is that the Talley’s boat will remain on the draft IUU list.

        “Incidentally, Talley’s is the same company that donated heavily to the campaign of Shane Jones, who has emerged as the defacto Minister of Fisheries in the current Government.”

        “Rather than trying to protect Talley’s from an international IUU listing, the Government should welcome the listing as a warning to other fishing companies that they must follow rules to protect the environment.


        • Jenny - How to get there?

          The Prime Minister must ask the Deputy Prime MInister, and leader of NZ First to remove his disgraced member from Cabinet, and replace him with a less compromised NZF MP.

          If Peters, refuses then the Prime Minister must act unilaterally and expel Shane Jones from Cabinet.

          The Prime Minister needs to fight for her leadership, to not do so would be to become a lame duck leader, subject to influencers like Jones and his corporate backers.

          Make no mistake, this is a make or break moment for the Coalition Government

          Will the Prime Minister act, as she clearly must, according to the Cabinet Manual?

          Or will she bow to corporate pressure, to let their hireling continue to peddle his poisonous influence inside the government and cabinet?

          Will Winston Peters back the Prime Minister’s decision to expel Shane Jones from the Cabinet?

          This is a fight for the soul of this government.

          Who will blink first?

          If Winston Peters decides to make a stand on behalf of Jones, will the Prime Minister call his bluff?

          Will Jacinda Adern fight for her leadership?

          And if necessary, in the face of Peters possible refusal to back down, threaten to put it to the country?

          An election that in my opinion the Prime Minister would handily win, returning to the treasury benches with a weakened NZ First and a strengthened Green Party

          All the cards are in the Prime Minister’s hands.

          Will she play them, or quietly fold and try to paper over the cracks in her Cabinet only to have them blow apart at some later date when she is in a weaker position?

          Will the Prime Minister concede, or make a stand?

          Allowing Jones to remain in Cabinet would be beyond pragmatism, It would be total surrender to the corporate lobby.

          Jones has to go, and Peters needs to accept it.
          Even if Peters threatens to pull the house down, the Prime Minister must stand her ground, or be forever lost. Instead of the great leader she is otherwise destined to be.

          • James

            Jacinda will and can do nothing.

            Winston has all the power.

            • Jenny - How to get there?

              2 February 2019 at 10:05 am
              Jacinda will and can do nothing.

              Winston has all the power.

              This is where you and I differ James.

              Jacinda Ardern can accept her powerlessness, or call Winston’s bluff.

              You advocate the former, while I advocate the latter.

              I believe that if Ardern stood up to Peters and fought for her leadership Peters would back down.

              If I am wrong, and Peters tries to force the issue. (Which he would be foolish to do.) Ardern if pushed into a corner by Peters could call a snap election.

              Fighting an election over the corruption of one of his Ministers, is a no win situation for Peters. Not backing down and taking a stand on principle and at the height of her popularity, I believe that Labour and the Greens* would be returned with a greater majority, enabling them to rule even if NZ First vote is diminished.

              Ardern has all the power.

              *(This raises an interesting sidebar. Where are the Greens?

              Why aren’t the Greens standing with Greenpeace and other environmentalists and demanding Shane Jones resignation?

              Where is Shaw?

              Where is Davidson?

              Why are they so invisible?

              The Greens need to return from AWOL and break out of their current invisibility and start fighting their corner if they are to raise their poll results.

        • Wayne


          Influencing a New Zealand prosecution would be an absolute “no, no”, but asking for a ship to be taken off the SPRFMO list would not be. The courts don’t put the ships on the list, an international organisation does, and the international organisation will have discretion. In my view Russell has completely confused the distinction between the two.

          So Jones has not breached the Cabinet manual. In fact it can be argued he is doing his duty in supporting a New Zealand company (and the jobs that go with it). The company would have to undertake to be better behaved in the future.

          • Jenny - How to get there?

            Hi Wayne you claim that peddling his influence to to get a ship taken off the SPRFMO list is OK

            But admit that, Influencing a New Zealand prosecution would be an absolute “no, no”,

            What do you mean by the term, an absolute “no, no”?

            Would it be an action resulting in the loss of Shane Jones’ Ministerial warrant?

            Or some lesser sanction?

            What did you have in mind?

            New Zealand First MP Mr Jones described the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI)’s case against agribusiness company Talley’s as a “technical issue” – when the Cabinet rules warn ministers against commenting on active cases. …..

            The Amaltal Apollo, a vessel owned by a subsidiary of Talley’s, is facing 14 charges for fishing in protected waters in the Tasman Sea.

            And Cabinet rules clearly state: “Ministers do not comment on or involve themselves in the investigation of offences or the decision as to whether a person should be prosecuted.”

            “I think there’s no question that Jones has breached the Cabinet Manual, which is the rules that govern the behaviour of Ministers,” Mr Norman said.


            • Ad

              Shane Jones is almost the only business-friendly or even business-knowledgeable Minister in the whole of Cabinet.

              Parker had some a few decades ago but its stale.

              Business has no confidence in this government at all. Jones comes with billions of dollars to deliver.

              The government should cut him a lot of slack before getting all miffy about process issues.

              • Jenny - How to get there?

                lprent 6.1.1
                3 October 2012 at 3:42 pm
                Actually strike 3 in terms of unwanted distractions. Credit card usage in 2010, Yan earlier this year which got a reasonable amount of traction, and then this wee outburst.

                But any politician worth anything should be aware that they need to watch their tongue around reporters. I’m afraid that the three john’s defense (key, banks, & tamihere) is simply a sign of political incontinence in my opinion.

                David H
                3 October 2012 at 6:19 pm
                Yep it should be 3 strikes, and your out!

                3 October 2012 at 7:30 pm
                Jones should’ve been out a long time ago.

                Can anyone recall him doing anything in politics? Apart from wanking himself off in parliament, metaphorically speaking.

                Shane Jones: now pimping for Sealords

            • Jenny - How to get there?

              Jones must go.

              Or in the face of Ministerial malfeasance and improper corporate influence, as James has said, the Prime Minister must accept being powerless.

              2 February 2019 at 10:05 am
              Jacinda will and can do nothing.

              Winston has all the power.

            • Wayne


              If he has said that about the prosecution, either the PM or the DPM should say something about it.

              But the statement by Jones that you have referenced is not a warrant removing level of offence. On the scale of these things, it is at the lower end.

              I t won’t affect the Judge at all. Comments about jury cases are viewed as being much more serious, since the jury could be affected.

              • Jenny - How to get there?

                But the statement by Jones that you have referenced is not a warrant removing level of offence. On the scale of these things, it is at the lower end.


                Hi Wayne,

                Previously you said that this was an absolute “no, no”

                Now you say, it’s at the lower end of these things?

                Care to explain your workings?

                • Wayne


                  Fair point. A minister should never comment about an active case. So in that sense it is a “no, no”. I can’t think of one circumstance where it would be OK and proper to do so. In contrast it is OK to comment about a decision already made, though in a respectful way.

                  But the punishment will vary according to how bad the comment is. Ranging from a rebuke from the PM, to a severe rebuke from the PM, to a final warning, to the removal from a portfolio and ultimately to dismissal from the Cabinet.

          • Psycho Milt

            Jones specifically referenced the court case in his statements, so it’s a bit late for him to claim he was only talking about the SPRFMO list.

            In fact it can be argued he is doing his duty in supporting a New Zealand company…

            Oh, it sure can be. A National Party cabinet minister would automatically support a NZ company that’s been caught illegally damaging the environment (as opposed to legally damaging the environment, which is a whole other unpleasant subject). Many of us would prefer ministers not to support damaging the environment, though.

      • tc 1.1.3

        Oh of course Wayne breaching the cabinet manual and being in the pockets of corporate interests you’re pimping for is not only acceptable it’s almost expected of national party ministers and bagman mp’s like JLR.

        Jones is doing his job as if was a national party mp….which we all know is a natural fit for his self interests.

        • Muttonbird

          And it must be remembered that their blind hatred of Russell Norman colours the thinking of all National MPs past and present. Any enemy of Mr Norman is a friend to them whether in the current government or not.

          • veutoviper

            Shouldn’t that be “Russel” not “Russell”?

            Sorry, could not resist! Not intended seriously but made me laugh vis a vis our earlier conversation. LOL. We are all human!

            • Muttonbird

              Quite! I was referencing Wayne’s comment at where he also used Russell.

      • Stuart Munro 1.1.4

        It’s a question of different standards Wayne.

        You and your ilk support illegal behavior of every kind (as long as it’s corporate) – those with a few shreds of intact morality do not. It may make fundraising easier for you, but corruption destroys any pretense of governance. Which goes a long way to explain your colleagues’ wretched performance in that role. They enriched themselves, but they impoverished our country.

    • Ed1 1.2

      One of the early radio reports on this issue said that the government (not just one MP/Minister) was arguing that a domestic case should be allowed to proceed before the ship was added to a banned list. I have not heard whether charges have been laid. I also do not know why the listing could not be appealed against if a domestic case resulted in acquittal – what is “normal” regarding domestic international prosecutions? I see no reference to a New Zealand prosecution – am I confusing this case with something else, or is this another case of inadequate reporting, or has this been covered elsewhere?

  2. Blazer 2

    Getting to like Jones.He rankles the opposition,business and others,without a trace of irony.
    ‘they don’t like it ..up em’..as Jones..said.

    • Stunned mullet 2.1

      Really? I find him to be a self aggrandising muppet who’s only redeeming feature is being able to string a sentence together.

      • patricia bremner 2.1.1

        Stunned Mullet, You know him personally?

        • Tuppence Shrewsbury

          So a public figure must be known personally to form an opinion of their behaviour in public?

          Has this tactic worked for you before in la la land?

          • patricia bremner

            TS It was the use of ”I find him to be…..’ which made me wonder.

            • Tuppence Shrewsbury

              He talks on tv and radio doesn’t he? I guess you could not draw a conclusion from his frequent public utterances?

              I know Jesse mulligan personally. Nice guy. But if I only knew him from tv and radio id find him to be almost insufferably wet.

              • cleangreen

                I agree on this Tuppence Shrewsbury

                On Jessie Mulligan.

                “find him to be almost insufferably wet.”

                He always waves the flag for National endlessly as a trumpet.

    • Jenny - How to get there? 2.2

      Much like Donald Trump’s faux populism. Jones is a swamp creature threatening to drain the swamp, the other swamp creatures know it is just postering and are not rankled at all.

      • Jenny - How to get there? 2.2.1

        Shane Jones employs bigotry, attacks Russel Norman for his Australian origins.

        Brands Greenpeace traitors.

        Attack the man not the argument is the disgracefulsort of low tactics employed by Jones. Showing his unfitness to be a Minister,


        • Jenny - How to get there?

          In a disgusting display, Shane Jones repeatedly uses bigotry, related to Russel Norman’s origins, to attack the Greenpeace Aotearoa Director.

          “Greenpeace are a source of extraordinary misinformation”, Shane Jones

          “Russel Norman is an Australian and he should stop trashing the good name of New Zealand fishing” Shane Jones

          “The attitude that Greenpeace is taking to industry in New Zealand, in particular the fishing industry, is economically traitorous”. Shane Jones

          “I’m not standing back at all, and allowing that Aussie to misrepresent New Zealand’s good name” Shane Jones

           Shane Jones needs to take heed of the words of Malcolm X before he attacks someone for their origin or ethnicity

          “I’m for truth, no matter who tells it. I’m for justice, no matter who it’s for or against” – Malcolm X 

          Russel Norman’s origins or ethnicity should have no place in political discourse..

          To resort to such tactics exposes Shane Jones as the worst sort of demagogue, one who resorts to attacks on a person’s identity to divert from, rather than address, the issues they raise.

          “Shane Jones is a disgrace” Russel Norman

          I agree.



  3. SaveNZ 3

    Time to have time limits and out clauses on resource consents if the commercial operation is not in the interests of society or the community, climate change changes the equation or the consents take natural resources away from that community…

    Things were very different regarding population growth, drought and climate change when a lot of these resource consents were granted decades ago and our laws need to be updated so that old consents that are harmful or not in long term interests of the community and environment are not able to be used but a new consent needed to be applied for and it should be up to the APPLICANT to prove beyond a doubt that there are no harmful effects from their commercial operation… including the water and their ability to recycle the bottles (aka if they can not prove that the aquifer is unaffected long term or they can ensure that the plastic is dumped in the sea or landful) then no resource consent granted on environmental issues).

    Bottling expansion could see 9 billion litres of pristine Christchurch water sold overseas


    At present how our RMA law is interpreted and the process is a farce, highjacked by well paid environmental lawyers with an easily manipulated RMZ process that is based on paid experts so the most devious and powerful win.. while the less powerful and communities have to now pay big dollars to have their say (which is ignored anyway) because in real terms environmental impacts are meaningless in environmental court as practicality is absent and pieces of paper by paid experts (with no comeback if they prove to be incorrect ) are the norm to get harmful and negative consents through.

    • dv 3.1

      THE water is NOT SOLD!!

      It is given away!!!

      • bwaghorn 3.1.1

        A 1cent a liter levee would earn a bit for the country.

        • dv

          I think its bizarre that there is no charge,

          • SaveNZ

            Yes it is one thing to allow people who gather the water off their own property the water for free aka roof collection which should never be charged for, but draining it from a communal aquifer is completely different and that source of water should be charged for in particular if the water is MOVED and on sold from that location. A percentage of money should also go to the local community, environmental safeguards and protection as well as general taxes.

          • greywarshark

            It sure is bizarre that giving away a precious resource needed for life is being provided in the Rort Bazaar that is NZ export commerce.

        • Psych nurse

          Its Litre and a levee is a stop bank.

          • Gabby

            It’s has an apostrophe.

            • In Vino

              Gabby, when “It’s” has an apostrophe it means either “It is” or “It has”. Far too many now incorrectly put in an apostrophe for the possessive – its – meaning ‘belonging to it’. No apostrophe. OK?
              As far as I can tell, Psych nurse is correct, because ‘it is’ or ‘it has’ would make no sense.
              Or did I miss one of your clever jokes?
              Oh dear.. I now see you may have been addressing dv, not Psych Nurse. In which case you are correct.
              Oh, the dangers of pedantry!

          • veutoviper

            With your pseudonym, I am surprised that you have had no training re dyslexia and similar. There have been a number of ‘conversations’ on here in just the last few days with people pulled up for disparaging remarks such as yours.

            • Muttonbird

              Liter is a legitimate alternative spelling, probably not dyslexia. And levee is a malapropism, also probably not dyslexia.

              • bwaghorn

                Non of the above I just have never had an eye for detail . And am a crap speller .

                • veutoviper

                  No problems, bwaghorn. You are not alone on here in that, and there was a situation a few days ago where someone else was subjected to inappropriate comments etc. and some of us don’t want repeats of that type of behaviour. I did try to be careful in saying ‘dyslexia or similar’ to cover a wider range of reasons. But as you can see some here (including myself) can be spelling/grammar pedants. Far more important is the ability to convey what you want to say, and you are great at that.

                • Muttonbird

                  That’s fine, but levee is still a malapropism weather intended or not.

                • greywarshark

                  Don’t let the pedants halt you from airing your valuable bit bwaghorn.

                  • halfcrown

                    Thanks for the good discussion. and your comment grey along with other peoples. It makes me feel better as my English is appaling and I am slightly dyslexic.
                    But what the hell out of the three R’s my riting is not good, my reading is not too bad can comprehend and understand the written word, and I find my Ereader a godsend, Can look up any word I do not know for the meaning, but my rithmatic is pretty good. Had to be for the engineering work I did.

                    Talking about reading I can recommend a good book called “Exactly How Precision Engineers Shaped the Modern World.” by Simon Winchester You don’t have to be an engineer to appreciate this book.
                    Explained a lot of things to me like I now know why some American’s refer to Slip Gauges as Jo Blocks and nice snippets of information like how Leitz of Leica camera fame had all his camera’s used by the Nazi’s but still managed to get his Jewish employees out of Germany. and how they managed to fix the Hubble Telescope. A very good read, a book I feel should be included in the first year curriculum of any engineering discipline as compulsory reading with exam questions about it. It will give any future engineers a good grounding how some of these things came about and the great people who discovered and invented lots of the procedures and tooling we use today.

                • patricia bremner

                  Buy a good spellchecker Cheers Worked wonders for me. LOL When did spelling indicate intelligence?

                  • Andre

                    I wouldn’t bother with the spellchecker. The Standard’s spell checker flags litre, but not liter. Like most American spellcheckers will.

                    It would take quite a sophisticated grammar checker to pick up wags’ use of levee where levy was the intended word.

                    I reckon wags probably already has the right approach: just laugh at the wankers that respond to mis-spellings and minor grammar errors rather than responding to the ideas.

                    • In Vino

                      Yep, as an ingrained pedant, I agree with you Andre, and I just have to keep restraining my natural tendency.. It is never wise to use a minor spelling error as a major argument.

                  • greywarshark

                    I think they have raised it to a sort of superior intelligence level in the USA with spelling competitions!

        • Herodotus

          A levy on exporting water I have said would achieve both : $ for nz
          And doesn’t effect who “owns” the water
          You are paying to export water.
          Do what you want within nz so the likes of irrigation, power generation remain uneffected

          • SaveNZ

            +1 Herodotus but also it should be contingent on the water being plentiful enough to export because these who live locally and are dependant on a resource should have the priority over money. But if there are no environmental impacts then it is a no brainer to charge per litre of water exported as a tax and that tax should be similar to what city people are forced to pay per litre!

            • Herodotus

              In Auckland, we pay for infrastructure to bring water and take away waste water/Stormwater. There is no “charge” for water in itself.
              Watercare is a “not for profit” setup
              “We do not operate to make a profit nor do we receive any funding from property rates paid to the Auckland Council. We also do not pay a dividend to the Auckland Council.”

              • SaveNZ

                Yes that is what they say but the reality is that you are charged for water and wastewater and the pretence it is for the pipes, but actually you are charged for the usage of the water it is not a fixed charge therefore their spin falls down.

                The wastewater and councils squander the money and keep adding more people and then their plan is to just send the sewerage into the sea.

                If a council or water company aka third way COO, can’t afford to manage existing water then they sure as hell should not be adding to the problem by consenting additional housing for additional people who apparently are needed to prop up the low wage economy here, and expecting the existing residents to subsidise the housing which is not affordable at all, while getting worse services aka many of the beaches are frequently closed off or not suitable for swimming at all due to pollution. Some of which is coming from boats as well, but again the rise of Marinas and cruise ships…

            • WeTheBleeple


              We need to think about this in the bigger picture: Climate, production, electricity generation, the commons, and profit.

              Using water harvesting methods of small scale earthworks (across the landscape) we can restore groundwater flow for our rivers, aquifers and dams. Landholders partaking in water harvesting to replenish local aquifers (and re-hydrate their own land) can be ensured x amount of water returned for their crops/stock in times of drought.

              Rentiers and renters can build rain gardens and small systems to replenish water in their own respective catchments thus also becoming stakeholders and beneficiaries of water supply.

              Water sold offshore pays for it. NZ Govt business selling bottled water for top dollar they can get, profits to run NZ water infrastructure.

        • Tamati Tautuhi

          I personally do not like the idea of Asian Corporates draining our aquifiers while our people drink muddy chlorinated water ?

    • SaveNZ 3.2

      Not good news for environment and water where population growth of people (and cows) happens and then the councils are cheerleading it… but then oh shit (literally), rushing around trying to find fixes to the problems and the money for those fixes instead of stopping consenting of more houses and farm effluents and pollution from industry until they already have the issues sorted and paid for!

      However our RMA system is easily bypassed to create pollution and pass of the effects to others based on a very selective vision of minor effects… instead of ensuring that detrimental effects are not allowed to others and the environmental in the first place…

      E. coli detected in Wairarapa town’s water supply

      High levels of E coli found in popular Queenstown lake

      Information witheld on Chch water contamination risk – report

      Poo tracker’: New Zealand website reveals sewage on beaches

      Auckland’s water shock: Bacteria levels ‘dangerously high’

    • Jenny - How to get there? 3.3

      SaveNZ 3
      2 February 2019 at 8:00 am
      Time to have time limits and out clauses on resource consents if the commercial operation is not in the interests of society or the community, climate change changes the equation or the consents take natural resources away from that community…

      It is still illegal to raise climate change as an objection for resource consents.

      • SaveNZ 3.3.1

        That in itself makes a Mockery of Jacinda’s “climate change is our nuclear free moment’… like wise climate change is also not allowed to be mentioned in free trade deals…

        clearly not only not a mention in the 100 day changes Labour made, but actually by supporting TPPA omitting climate change they are part of the problem and enabling climate change and are bigger hypocrites than Natz that openly say they are climate change deniers.

    • cleangreen 3.4

      SaveNZ is 100% correct here.

      Labour must change the order of preference to become far more ‘protective’ in our legal references used by those faux lawyers, and be more guarding of our environmental policies and use of the RMA.

      QUOTE; “At present how our RMA law is interpreted and the process is a farce, highjacked by well paid environmental lawyers with an easily manipulated RMZ process that is based on paid experts so the most devious and powerful win”

    • Pat 4.1

      a better question may be …is aquifer recharge a better option than destocking/land use change?

      • bwaghorn 4.1.1

        You need to work within achievable boundaries.
        People are always going to farm so even if destocking happens it will be through changing to cropping which still needs water.

        • SaveNZ

          In Auckland they are farming housing estates, not affordable ones though.

          In Long Bay and other areas is impacting the entire ecosystem and the beaches and water ways but not a word said.

          Also impacting the existing houses for example the buses now go to the new (rich) estates by Long Bay with a new mall etc planned and the public transport is set to largely bypass the ordinary folks where the buses used to come and now you have to get to Albany or the new rich estates to find transport. So the exisiting households who paid their rates for years are bypassed to increase the value of the developments which are not exactly affordable for local wages.

        • Pat

          the area described in the article was largely dryland farmed until 20 years ago, and its a question of degree, water take has grown at exponential rates in that time (along with considerable tree loss)…the achievable boundaries are environmental…we can choose to manage a transition away from that excess water take or have it forced on us by those environmental boundaries.

          • bwaghorn

            Are you okay with the government subsidizing farmers to lower out put . Their growth was funded by debt and allowed by government you can’t just change the law and send whole areas broke.

            • Andre

              Why not? It’s been done before.

              • bwaghorn

                I m not opposed but I can’t see your average standard commenter being happy about it

                • cleangreen

                  We need to because “sustainable”.

                  National threw that ‘sustainable’ notion into the dustbin; – and now we are wrestling with the disastrous outcomes.

                  When will we ever learn.

            • Pat

              I commented the other day that someone is going to have to take a hit…and I didnt think it would be the banks.

              There may well need to be some form of compensation to realise some reduction in intensity/land use change but whether I think thats appropriate would depend upon the details

              • patricia bremner

                A previous Government paid growers to pull kiwifruit as there was too much and change their crop, so citrus and avacado growing increased.

            • SaveNZ

              @ bwaghorn, 25% of farmers are broke anyway… with the rise in food banks and 40% of people are at poverty level now, maybe the government should offer farmers a rate to produce food for our own people. Since accomodation is subsidised, oil and gas subsidised, wages are subsidised in NZ, travel is subsidised, even power now with the winter energy payments, why not have the government go direct to farmers for quality food and drive that movement.

          • SaveNZ

            @Pat, + 1 the water take has grown at exponential levels… and that is why consents and RMA laws needs to be changed to stop that drain before it is too late (and then the rich applicants will do doubt sue the council for bad management or what have you, either way it is the poorer folks who get left with the problems, the polluters just move on with their profits to do it to another community…

        • patricia bremner

          Yea bwaghorn, no use replacing one water guzzling activity with another. We need to be smarter and more aware of the takers, and what we get in exchange for this life giving fluid.

  4. SaveNZ 5

    Retailers, importers and manufacturers need to become responsible for their plastic waste.

    How can better quality more recycled offerings compete with $25 tents in a low wage economy… the problems is that it becomes the planet that has the plastic burden, and the community who have to pay to dispose of this plastic waste (not the manufacturer) and legislation is needed to ensure that the manufacturer or seller becomes liable for the disposal fees… if that happens then it will invent much more recyclable materials being used in throw away cheap items and stop the tons of plastic waste polluting the seas and landfill…

    You can’t expect the user to make the change, it has be come from the manufacturers and importers bringing or creating this stuff to change to more recycled materials or longer lasting products…


    • bwaghorn 5.1

      How about teaching our kids not to be fucking lazy spoilt little brats. ??

      • One Two 5.1.1

        Whose going to teach the parents?

      • SaveNZ 5.1.2

        Apart from the child labour not sure the fucking lazy spoilt little brats can be blamed when it is perfectly legal for a company to produce disposable and cheap plastic items and not have anything in place to dispose of them or be responsible for that disposal… at the same time it drives the other companies out of business because the retailers and consumers are going for the cheapest items.. If the manufacturer and retailers and importers of those plastic items had to pay for their disposal it would even up the playing field. At present it is putting sustainable businesses out of business because only wealthier people can afford to be sustainable and travel to seek out those items rather than the $2 shop brigade.

      • Sabine 5.1.3

        can we start with the Grandparents and parents? After all the children don’t raise themselves they are raised by their elders.

        but yeah, its easier to blame the offspring rather then oneself, right?

      • patricia bremner 5.1.4

        Wow, all kids are brats? context needed.

      • greywarshark 5.1.5

        What example is in your mind bwaghorn?

        • bwaghorn

          It’s become fashionable at music festivals to buy cheap tents etc and get up and leave them behind .
          I did note one recently that a cardboard tent could be purchased which while isn’t perfect is a good idea.

    • veutoviper 5.2

      Jesse Mulligan had a segment on this very subject on his Afternoons programme on RNZ National yesterday afternoon, primarily an interview with Cheryl Reynolds, Chief Entrepreneurial Officer of Xtreme Zero Waste.

      The increase in the number of tents etc being left behind just in the last two years was amazing. There was discussion of some possible solutions, including mention of work underway to re-use these tents etc to provide shelter for the homeless.

      https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/afternoons/audio/2018680720/the-waste-left-behind-at-festivals (10+ minutes)

      • SaveNZ 5.2.1

        It’s not just tents, it is all plastic that needs to be looked at from $2 shops to larger items to force the manufacturers to change their ways to recyclable materials… you will get nowhere expecting consumers to change when there is exponential growth of plastic everywhere on every shop corner a $2 shop springing up in our low wage, consumer economy…

      • cleangreen 5.2.2

        My forefathers all came to ‘Canvastown” near Havelock in the top of the south Island in the 1860s 160 yrs ago and built a home, there later that is still there today.

        Can we call Auckland Canvastown?

    • Janet 5.3

      This is where Free Trade agreements work against the environment. We need import restrictions on the cheap plastic crap that is flooding NZ. We need regulations that govern the quality, the durability of manufactured products. Products should be designed to last a significant number of years. Planned obsolescence must be regulated out of existence.The manufacturers and the importers will not willingly change.

      • patricia bremner 5.3.1

        Janet, This is the cause of so many failures in the useful life of a purchase.
        Husband buying a small tool, commented about a small plastic clip. “If that broke can I get a replacement part?’ he asked. Reply, “Mate no, it only costs $19.99 to buy a new one” Hubby calls this a deliberate design flaw.
        We truly have become the “Don’t fix it… throw it away society.’ Further, the bit that breaks always seems to be plastic.

  5. Kat 6

    Aunty Herald firing more beat up slagging, wedging commentary at the coalition this morning. Can’t help laughing at the ridiculous nature of it.

    • Anne 6.1

      Agree it’s a non story Granny Herald is giving unnecessary prominence to but hey… the
      Alfred Ngaro video is funny. 😀

      • veutoviper 6.1.1

        As you say a “silly season” story still, but Ngaro’s video last year was funny. I wondered whether he was the other person using the weights for too long this time around, but really don’t care!

  6. greywarshark 7

    Reading about the human psychological practice of compartmentalism, I think this is an explanation of how we have, and still are, avoiding dealing with our behaviours that are destructive to ourselves and the planet. Why do we refuse to see, which is necessary to understand the need for change? We compartmentalise.

    Humanities are being sliced from our universities’ menus; because the study of Sociology gives insight into how we think, and helps us to take charge of our own thinking and drive our destinies rather than be receptors of privatised PR campaigns set up to enrich individuals or corporates.


    And every new approach once accepted by a significant number becomes used by profit-takers who use it seductively. Being able to think for oneself means that one doesn’t get led by the nose to absorb unthinkingly, someone else’s simple solution.


  7. Chris T 8

    Turns out the immigration numbers under the Nats was wrong.

    Would be slightly embarrassing.


    • Andre 8.1

      The new methodology tracks peoples’ actual movements across the border to determine their migrant status, rather than relying on intentions based on departure and arrival cards.

      So those fkn waste-of-time pain-in-the-ass departure and arrival cards were worse than useless, they were actively screwing up the data.

      • Chris T 8.1.1


        I know what you mean.

        You fill them out while thinking the whole time.

        No one will even look at this ffs.

    • SaveNZ 8.2

      What is new, like the Meth levels, our science and tech is a disgrace. Who in their right mind actually depends of the arrival cards information anyway – people lie, people’s plans change, it is obvious!

      Also know a lot of people who are entering and exiting on different passports so knowing we livein the land of plod not sure our esteemed (sarcasm) officials are able to work out what is going on.

      Aka to avoid paying student loans back and keep the benefits going, you can depart of that different passport. People I know have 3 identities, their NZ name, their migrant name, and their married name. When criminals are bought before the NZ courts it then comes out they have multiple identities…. obviously will be distorting the arrival and departure figures as well when NZ thinks many are still here when they left a while ago…

      Land of plod can’t keep up. Too difficult when you can just charge the locals more and more taxes, depend on honesty for all your information, and ignore criminal behaviour and think it is a one off so don’t bother to clamp down.

      Also the same people who gain residency often depart just like the Kiwis. Getting in more people to NZ doesn’t stop people leaving because if you have low wages and few real career opportunities for workers, it doesn’t matter if you are a Kiwi born or migrant you will still expect to have opportunities and decent wages.

      So all the migrants they are bringing to replace the Kiwis are leaving too once they obtain residency (which inexplicably only takes a few years here) and then they can depart while also making use of the schools for their kids, hospitals for their illnesses, buy up houses with overseas wages, the only damper has been the aged parents are harder to get in to keep the satellite family going and take care of the kids while the workers are offshore… I’m sure some advocate group will be onto the government to relax that one too… as we hear every day another sob story about someone having to leave the country because they never qualified for residency in the first place while at the same time more stories of workers being made redundant or NZ companies going into liquidation… so there does not seem to be a shortage of workers but more a Ponzi to pay people less or keep food businesses (in particular) afloat in return for residency…

  8. Jenny - How to get there? 9

    The end of MAD-ness?

    Upsetting the balance of terror

    Why is the US preparing to deploy a First Strike Weapon against China?

    Why is Trump preparing to move the type of intermediate range missiles with nuclear tips banned under old cold war treaty agreements, to the Western Pacific and North Korean border and Chinese frontier?

    What would deploying this hair trigger nuclear first strike weapon on the borders of China mean for world peace?

    Will the UN countries unite to condemn the US’s provocative actions?

    Or are they are law unto themselves?

    U.S. Suspends Nuclear Arms Control Treaty With Russia

    “We can no longer be restricted by the treaty while Russia shamelessly violates it,’’ he told reporters in Washington.

    So far the Russian government has been unwilling to admit that a missile it has deployed near European borders violates the treaty’s terms. Moscow asserts that the missile does not fly far enough to breach the limits established in an accord that, until recent years, was considered a gold-standard of arms control treaties and procedures to verify compliance.

    The United States has insisted Russia’s actions sank the treaty. But the Trump administration’s real aim is to broaden its prohibitions to include China and other countries.

    Constrained by the treaty’s provisions, the United States has been prevented from deploying new weapons to counter China’s efforts to cement a dominant position in the Western Pacific and keep American aircraft carriers at bay.


    • Jenny - How to get there? 9.1

      An excuse for war writ big

      Remember the US accusations that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction that were used as an excuse for war, but were later proven to be false?

      Now the US is playing a bigger and even more dangerous game.

      Russia does have weapons of mass destruction. But Russia is also being accused by the US, of having weapons of mass destruction with a first strike capability banned by treaty, an accusation the Russians deny.

      Designed to destroy a country’s retaliatory counter measures, before they can be launched. These are the sort of first strike weapon that makes previously unthinkable nuclear exchange possible,

      Putin blames US for breaching nuclear arms treaty
      China has urged the US to resolve the differences with Russia without pulling out of the treaty.


      ….Foreign minister Sergey Lavrov said the White House had ignored Russia’s offer to inspect the cruise missile the US claimed violated the pact.

      He also accused the US of violating the pact by deploying missile interceptors in Romania that use launchers that could hold land-based cruise missiles…..

      ….NATO has already said it “fully supports” the US, adding: “Allies regret that Russia, as part of its broader pattern of behaviour, continues to deny its INF Treaty violation, refuses to provide any credible response, and has taken no demonstrable steps toward returning to full and verifiable compliance.”

      China’s government appealed to both nations to maintain the treaty.

      The country’s foreign ministry warned there could be “adverse consequences” after the Trump administration withdrew.

      A ministry statement said: “China is opposed to the US withdrawal and urges the US and Russia to properly resolve differences through constructive dialogue.”

      The treaty was signed toward the end of the Cold War between then presidents Mikhail Gorbachev and Ronald Reagan. It bans ground-launched missiles with a range between 500 and 5,500km.

    • Robert Guyton 10.1

      This is amazing stuff.

      • patricia bremner 10.1.1

        Robert Thanks for that link.

        • greywarshark

          40 years of expanding crops with hazelnuts etc. Very balanced natural environment. Hazelnuts have 60% oil in nut – Soya 20%? Hazelnut tried and could run a machine. Hazels in 1988 had drought and bore a crop, that year and next. Floods 3 feet deep in water later and hazels carried on.

          Grazing animals under hazel bushes – horses don’t like the leaves – except they might eat them for part of the year.

          Forests build soil. Crops, ploughing, end up ‘strip-mining’ it.

          • Robert Guyton

            Hey, grey – I’m on the road from 6:00am tomorrow morning and won’t be able to take part in tomorrow’s “How to get there” – at least until I get to Alexandra, later in the day; I’m speaking to a couple of community groups there and advising on pruning an ancient orchard – all good fun but I’ll be unable to comment here for the most part – could you please drop a note into tomorrow’s thread to that effect? Thanks

    • Anne 10.2

      Well, it doesn’t look like there is going to be any more “laughing at” back in NZ James.

      The truth is starting to emerge by the looks of it. It seems Barclay was misinforming Twyford:


      … the numbers Mr Barclay reported to Mr Twyford fell well short of what had been confirmed.

      “On 26 October 2018, Mr Barclay formally reported to the Minister 631 KiwiBuild dwellings with a high likelihood of delivery … however, only 264 homes were contracted from the private sector or committed by Housing New Zealand.

      “Currently, there are 293 houses that are contracted and committed for delivery in year one. Of those, the number for HNZ is 177,” the note said.

      • James 10.2.1

        Sorry Anne – there are plenty laughing at it.

        As will be obvious when the dismal failure keeps getting raised at election time.

        • Anne

          You haven’t even read the RNZ item have you.

          I can tell from the wording that Barclay’s “management style” was a lot worse than he claimed. It is clear he was behaving like the typical serial bully. These types are often engaged from outside the Public Service and they believe they have the right to ride roughshod over everybody. They slash, burn and bully their way through the job convinced they know better than everyone else.

          Twyford and co. may have learnt a valuable lesson. Be very careful who you appoint to these positions. Once they have the right CEO, Kiwibiuld will slowly grow and flourish as per the original expectation.

          It takes years to build up any industry to it full potential, and there are always teething problems along the way. When it happens, you and your clueless and classless Nat mates who did bugger-all for nine long years… will fall silent and hopefully not be heard from again.

          • Anne

            On second thoughts, I don’t think Twyford did appoint Barclay. I suspect that was the prerogative of the previous housing ministry chief. The current chief inherited the problem.

            • Tuppence Shrewsbury

              Poor bosses blame their staff. The buck has to stop somewhere and that’s with Twyford.

              Did Twyford, and by extension Jacinda, honestly think they could just make some money available and demand a target be made without any over sight?

              • Anne

                On the basis of your idiot comment it means that no-one anywhere should be held accountable for their behaviour no matter how serious:

                ‘hey fellas, lets go smash someone in the head. We won’t be held accountable. The boss will because he hired us.’

                So, all the prisons are filled with bosses while the perpetrators go free.

                • Tuppence Shrewsbury

                  Lol Anne your so pathetic. You’ve got virtually zero intellectual consistency. If an underling of the last government was sacked for bad behaviour you’d blame it on Key et al.

                  Yet now your are blaming everything on a ceo who reports to Phil Twyford who has left after complaints against him. Complaints against Barclay can’t save Ill thought through policy from itself, it’s creator and main proponent Phil Twyford. What is he doing if not overseeing the largest, most grandiose policy that labour were elected on

                  Take your blinkers off, it’s your generation that created the housing mess. Don’t blame the next few if we don’t believe this government can’t do what it said it will.

                  • Anne

                    Pretends to have a soh. 🙂

                    Projection much Tuppenny bit.

                    • veutoviper

                      Re our discussion the other day on my long comment re the rules etc here, WTB replied that it was a pity most people would not see it …

                      Tempted* to develop it a bit more to cover your and RedLogix comments and a few other bits – as a neutral OM comment outside of a particular instance and a heat of the moment situation, aimed at putting the About and Policy rules etc right in front of people as I am convinced a lot have never read them. Walking a tightrope or walking on dangerous ice? Uuummmm

                      * Some are ‘at it’ just a few down at 10.3, 12 and 13 …

                    • cleangreen

                      Don’t pay a ‘penny’s’ worth attention to Tuppenny’ S rubbish Anne,

                  • patricia bremner

                    What would you do to rectify the housing shortage? Any suggestions?
                    Like Key and co. you would ask “what housing shortage?” while kids lived and slept in vans. Now you call it a “housing mess.”
                    Then there are your attacks on other people’s intelligence.
                    Your arrogance shows through.
                    You don’t think anyone else should disagree with you, because if they do they are stupid or intellectually bereft or in la la land.
                    While you are a paragon of wit!! lol lol What a crock!!
                    You are an attack dog for the right. You seldom give a cogent case just a nasty attack line. No doubt you will now lay about my shared ideas and beliefs lol lol
                    Moderators, if I have broken rules please delete but these attacks are constant and unremitting.

                  • Andrea

                    What’s with the ad hominem and generation bashing?

            • veutoviper

              I am slowly putting together a bit of a timeline to get a better handle on what has probably happened. As mentioned in a couple of comments earlier in the week, I have worked with Andrew Crisp and have respect for his integrity etc.

              In brief, the skeleton of the timeline looks like this to date:

              December 2017: Kiwibuild was first set up as stand-alone business unit within the Ministry of Business Innovation and Employment (MBIE) until a new ministry, the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development (MHUD), was established.

              May 2018: Barclay’s appointment as Head of Kiwibuild was announced by MBIE chief executive Carolyn Tremain on 10 May 2018, with Barclay starting on 28 May 2018. (This tends to indicate that the employment process was probably handled by MBIE, not as a SSC appointment. It certainly would/should not have been an appointment in which any Ministers were involved.)

              ???? (probably Dec 2017 or early 2018): Andrew Crisp appointed Chief Executive of the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development Establishment Team. Crisp was seconded to the position from his job as Chief Executive of Land Information NZ. He was appointed to that position in Oct 2016 for five years. (Crisp may, or may not, have been involved in Barclay’s selection and employment process. Still trying to find something on this point.)


              1 Oct 2018: Ministry of Housing and Urban Development established with the Kiwibuild unit moving into the new Ministry. Andrew Crisp was appointed Acting Chief Executive still on secondment initially.

              Early Nov 2018: Barclay goes on or is sent on garden leave while an investigation into complaints about his behaviour towards work colleagues etc is undertaken.

              4 Dec 2018: SSC Commissioner Peter Hughes announced the appointment of Andrew Crisp to the position of Chief Executive of the new Ministry of Housing and Urban Development.


              The Ministry of Housing and Urban Development is now made up of and brought together functions from the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment and Ministry of Social Development, along with the monitoring of Housing New Zealand and Tāmaki Redevelopment Company function from Treasury.

              In other words, the whole process of establishing the new new agencies such as Kiwibuild, MHUD, the changes within others such as Housing NZ etc to align with the new government’s very different approach to housing was done in a very short period of time after the government came into power and affected a wide range of existing government agencies. Major upheaval for many agencies and people; not to mention the need to change culture to adjust to the change in approach.

              Those who have not worked in government departments, particularly in head office, probably don’t realise how big a change this was/is and the possible repercussions, unintended consequences etc. From personal experience, I am actually surprised that this Barclay situation is not accompanied by more of a similar nature.

              • Anne

                I don’t know what we would do without you vv. Time-lines are vital to understanding a process and what might have gone wrong. You have the back-ground and skills to do it so well.

                That was a massive undertaking for minister, Phil Twyford to oversee, and shows just how far sighted he is. That it has got to this point in just over a year is remarkable. But as always when setting up a new structure, there are teething problems.

                While there are a few excellent exceptions to the rule, it infuriates me how shallow and ignorant the MSM journos and commentators are. They just jump onto political band-wagons without any investigation into the actual facts.

                They are beyond pathetic.

                • veutoviper

                  I’ve got to stick up for some MSM journos, Anne because they are also timeline addicts like myself – for example, David Fisher, Matt Nippert and “Young Henry Cooke” (as someone here called him just in the last few days. LOL but he is! Both a timeliner and young, that is.)

                  But agreed that when you step back and think about the timelines etc of the changes in structure, role, purpose etc etc of the agencies I discussed above, it really is massive. And the more I think about Andrew Crisp, the more I think he is an excellent choice for MHUB in terms of his background and his personality etc.

                  • Anne

                    Yes, I had Nippert and Fisher in mind but couldn’t remember how to spell Nippert so avoided saying any names. 😕

              • cleangreen


                Interesting that the name ‘Tremain’ comes up here!!!- as she is shown in your timely ‘review’ as being mixed up with housing, as who as running it now.

                Since she appointed the new Chief of Kiwi build, and it may interest you to know that the Tremain family is deep into the real estate market in HB and other areas, perhaps a review of her being attached to the real estate market is due here to?

                Chris Tremain was Napier National MP for several years and was met by our group opposing the truck gridlocked road called the HB Expressway and he knew all the owners of adversely affected properties and heresay several were approached by ‘Tremains Real Estate’ in Napier and some were then sold by Tremain Real Estate after we had introduced them to theses home owners through Chris Tremain.

                We make no accusations about him but the fact that he knew those properties were “undesirable” due to the truck noise, vibration, and air pollution adversely affecting these property owners was cause for us to wonder why Tremains afterwards were the main company that were selling those properties.

                Inside trading perhaps?

                • alwyn

                  Have you any reason at all to connect Carolyn Tremain to the family of the late Kel Tremain in Hawkes Bay?
                  I was not aware of any such link and the coincidence of surnames is hardly sufficient to make such a claim.
                  Evidence of a link, if you have one.

    • marty mars 10.3

      Really? I think not. I just read it – they aren’t laughing at kiwibuild or anything – you just bullshitted as usual with your fanciful and incorrect comment. Fail.

      • James 10.3.1

        Oh yeah. Sorry. They were saying that building 47 houses was an amazing achievement worthy of legendary status.

        • Sabine

          that is more then National achieved to build in 9 years.
          Oh yeah, thats right, the NO mates Party does not build, they sell state assets for a discount in order to afford the tax cuts for the very rich.

          • Infused

            Are you really so fucking g stupid like wtf is going through your head? The state houses sold were fucked. Rotting floors etc. National were trying to build and told labour how hard it was. And labour aren’t building they are just buying private properties that were already being built.

            • McFlock

              Don’t forget the state houses sold because of laughable traces of P.
              Either way, the current government has increased the number of state houses in stock by 500 since the election. National kept cutting the number of state houses in stock.

              Like the rest of government, the job was too hard for National, but not for the current government.

        • marty mars

          Yes typical childish response when caught lying. You’re more like your hero trump every day.

    • SaveNZ 10.4

      @ James, If they bothered to ditch Kiwibuild and maybe just get HNZ to do the building without the hype they might be more successful aka more like previous governments who actually built state houses…

      1000 state houses and 33? Kiwibuild houses, gives you a hint of what happens when private practise and more and more new agencies are involved against just getting HNZ to do it… Then there is all the litigation like Barclay and fat cat salaries for no results…

      from the article…

      “We have built 1,000 new state houses since we came to office,” Mr. Twyford said, referring to public housing separate from the KiwiBuild initiative, adding that the government had put 1,800 families into those homes. There are more than 11,600 people and families on public housing waiting lists, according to government figures.”

      As for the promotion of relaxing planning to lower land prices, guess what Natz did that for 9 years and built even less houses and now the land is more expensive because guess what, when you are able to build more houses on land, the price of the land goes up! Then less people can afford to buy the land and so instead of small builders being able to build, only big players can, who spend a lot of time, trying to lobby government to lower standards and council to give them freebies and also wanting big companies only to do their builds when the NZ labour has always been more around smaller projects that they are now locked out of. Then the big projects like apartments start leaking as it’s all based around big business making the most profits… Not exactly rocket science why our land prices have increased and our buildings are shit.

  9. James 11

    Watkins on Jacinda’s reality check.

    Sums it up nicely.


    This year if “delivery” is going to be interesting. Still I guess it will be easier if we remove any goals.

    • AB 11.1

      Everyone expects National to scaremonger on the topic of a CGT – because it is their supporters who have been undeservedly enriched by the absence of one.
      No surprises here.

    • Kat 11.2

      And this sums up the shallow, hollow thinking of Tracy Watkins… “But Ardern will have to back herself to sell that message on a CGT and be heard above the cacophony of opposition. Former National leader John Key showed the way, when he was able to sell a rise in GST at the height of his popularity, and without even burning up too much of his political capital……”

      John Key would sell square golf balls, if there was an opportunity. Tracy Watkins like all the other National poodles would buy them.

      • Shadrach 11.2.1

        It’s not ‘would’ but ‘could’. Key had his faults, but he was plausible and competent. He had life experience. He was successful. Our current PM has none of those attributes.

        • Drowsy M. Kram

          Bile has compromised your judgement – our current PM may not be a squillionaire, but she certainly is successful.

          Your other putdowns are equally nonsensical – can only imagine they are motivated by no-mates party politics.

          Laughing so hard at the thought of you saying any of this to Jacinda’s face.

          Try this:
          Key had his faults, but he was plausible and competent. He had life experience. He was successful. Our current leader of the opposition has none of those attributes.

          • Robert Guyton

            “Who wants uranium to spare”???

          • Shadrach

            …” but she certainly is successful”

            At what exactly?? Setting up working groups? International schmoozing? Tolerating incompetence?

            • Drowsy M. Kram


              The definition of success (IMHO), but Patricia (@ said it best.

              Many admire her, so why don’t you? Be honest (if you can.) Is it really about all that ‘awful’ international ‘schmoozing’? OK for John Key and other no-mates party leaders, but Ardern(?!) – yeah, nah…

              • Shadrach

                In other words she’s been successful at nothing in particular. Why don’t I admire her? Because she’s a lightweight, an accidental PM, who had the opportunity to achieve much but is too superficial to achieve anything of value.

                • marty mars

                  lol you’re not very bright and very envious – a funny combo.

                  • Shadrach

                    Envious? That would mean JA has something I want and don’t have. Can’t think of a single thing.

                    • Sure, I truly believe you really can’t think of a single thing. Try doing a self awareness course – it may help you come to terms with your envy of our Prime Minister.

                    • Shadrach

                      Or you could contemplate the possibility that our PM actually has not a single trait I admire and don’t alteady have.

                    • marty mars

                      Hard to believe that you can’t find a single trait – that seems deliberate to me.

                      Just noticed the “that I don’t already have.” – bit. That sorta backs up the envy angle sorry to say.

                    • Shadrach

                      We’ve all seen JA tested and fail. Nothing I can see to admire in that.

                    • No there haven’t been tests that she has failed at all. I think she is the opposite of you in many ways and you can’t stand that. Fair enough to be frightened but making up stuff is weak.

        • patricia bremner

          No, she has genuine warmth, a wish to improve New Zealander’s lives, a grasp of International diplomacy and is a product of living in the Islands and New Zealand.

          She is truthful and hardworking. After 15 months in office she led her Coalition brilliantly.
          Two personnel hiccups and a disagreement over leadership style by the PSA and a Business Manager (who has litigated before) does not reflect on the Kiwi build programme.

          Twyford has called for a rethink in view of changing circumstances. House prices have stabilized, deposits have been adjusted, banks are squeezing credit, many builders and developers were already over committed, so a few wobbles appeared all of this compounded by an investigation into an employment issue.

          Wisely Twyford shared those difficulties with the Cabinet P.M. and the Public, pointing out it was a steady but slow build up needing recalibration.

          A number of commentators who did not like a Government programme in the market screamed “Failure!!” “It’s a dog!!”, “Sack Twyford!!” etc.

          This is a huge programme which will now involve HNZ and the not for profit group. Size will mean savings, and the new entities powers will allow fast tracking at times. To call a ten month old developing programme a failure is incredibly harsh.

          No many called for Simon Bridges head when he failed to produce any of the bridges he promised for Northland, or oversaw TNZA which was riddled with failures, or allowed explosive devices via Anadarko to be fired 24 hrs a day under the sea off the coast of NZ.

          It seems if any scheme that is social in intent it is “bad”. A strange twisted attitude in the face of political and market failure under Key.

          • Kat

            Good comments Patricia. First of all it was derision and outrage when Jacinda Ardern became PM now it’s pure envy and bile from the Nat brigade. National have no one to match our PM and they know it. That is why National party mouth piece aunty herald is publishing daily commentary aimed at chipping away at the govt’s credibility.

          • Shadrach

            Where to start. Truthful? Are you serious? Did you watch her interview about the kiwibuild targets? Hardworking? That’s one of the more humorous descriptions.

        • Kat

          Check your grammar Shadrach. “He would……if he had the opportunity” is correct. It’s an unlikely situation, but he “would” if he “could”.

          Key had narrow life experience mostly spent on the phone as a dealer. Agree, he was a successful gambler, which for a PM is no success at all.

          Our current PM is both very experienced in matters of state and a successful human being. Which for a PM is success.

          • Shadrach

            You clearly have no idea what John Key did with his life. As for JA being ‘experienced in matters of state’, what the hell are you talking about? She worked in a chippy. She has had no life experience outside the echo chamber of politics, none. She’s totally unqualified for her role, and it’s showing.

            • McFlock

              Ah, politics.

              The only profession where you can spend your entire life working in the field and rise to the highest level, and people still think you’re less qualified for the job than a fucking corporate mercenary who likes tugging on ponytails.

              • Shadrach

                I consider someone in their late 30s who has achieved nothing outside of ‘their field’, and not much in it, to be particularly well qualified to run anything, let alone a country. Her performance thus far is confirming that.

                • McFlock

                  Her field is politics. She’s a fuckload better at it than her competition. That’s why she’s PM.

                  If she were a financial trader who now runs the company and snatches deals from the clutches of her competitors, you’d be calling her a “job creator” and begging that she gets tax cuts.

                  • Shadrach

                    No, she’s PM because of Mr 7% knowing she could be be manipulated. JA has done bugger all of anything in the real world. She’s superficial and weak. And it is showing.

                    • This delusion held by right-wingers that they occupy something called the “real world” and people they disdain occupy something called… what? The “unreal world?”… is way more deserving of psychological research than it actually gets.

                    • Shadrach


                      Bomber isn’t happy! Seriously though, the incompetence of the government around kiwibuild is a good example of what happens with lightweight leadership.

                    • Shadrach

                      It’s not a right or left thing. There are people from across the political spectrum who have never achieved anything in the real world. I wouldn’t consider any of them qualified to run a country.

                    • So, it’s not a right or left thing, but purely coincidentally we only ever hear right-wingers referring to themselves as existing in something called “the real world” with the implication that people they disdain don’t exist in physical reality? Yep, plenty of scope there for psychological research.

                    • Shadrach

                      If you read my comment I wasn’t referring to who ‘refers’ to the real world, but who lives in it. There are deluded people across the political spectrum.

                    • Er, yes – it was my comment that pointed out who refers to their tribe as exclusive occupants of “the real world.” Your comments take your tribe being exclusive occupants of “the real world” as a given, which is exactly the interesting subject for psychological study I was referring to.

                    • Shadrach

                      My comment never mentioned ‘exclusive’, nor did it mention left or right. You seem to be having some reading comprehension challenges this morning. The study you refer to might want to begin with your own delusions?

                  • That’s why she’s PM.

                    This, to Shadrach, constitutes “not achieving much” in the field of politics…

                    • Shadrach

                      JA became leader of the LP because they were desperate to stem the bleeding of support, and there was no one else either willing or able. She then became PM because of the bitterness of an aging xenophobia towards his old party. Not much of an achievement.

                    • McFlock

                      Both interpretations can be true.

                      She made a deal because she’s better at making deals than the nats.
                      She’s better at making deals than the nats because she knows not to alienate the people you will try to make deals with. She’s better at making deals than the nats because under her leadership Labour went from being a fading 25-ish% into actually being a position to negotiate a coalition deal. She stemmed the loss of support because she’s a good, experienced politician.

                      You can talk about the real world all you want – in the real world, if you try, repeatedly, to fuck someone over and belittle them, you don’t get to make deals with them. That’s why Labour have two genuine coalition partners, and National has Rimmer.

                    • Shadrach

                      She stemmed the loss of support because she was a fresh face who had achieved nothing and never been tested. That iron is now being put to the fire and there is a growing list of her ineptness.

                      She made a deal by being fooled into thinking WP was contemplating ever going with the Nats. She made a deal by giving away billions of dollars on vanity projects

                      I talk about the real world because that is where people learn about success and failure, that actions have consequences, and that nice words and good intentions count for little when things get tough. Being a researcher and wrapping fish and chips does not qualify.

                    • If there were some reason we might value your personal opinion of her performance, the above might count for something.

                    • Shadrach

                      I will give credit to JA when she has led her party to 3 consecutive election victories, and been the highest polling party in each.

                    • McFlock

                      No, you won’t. As the old joke goes, JA could walk on water and you’d criticize her for not being able to swim.

                    • Shadrach

                      Well the chances of it being put to the test are slim. I don’t rate her having what it takes to last that long, based on what we’ve seen so far.

                    • McFlock

                      We know. You think that JA is a superficial, weak, inexperienced individual who has achieved nothing except become Prime Minister.


                • Charlie

                  Shadrach……..now there’s a cunt.

        • patricia bremner

          No Shadrach, I can’t for a moment imagine Jacinda Ardern would “play” with our currency to make money on futures at our expense as John Key did.

          I can’t imagine her going to a cafe in full public view to scheme with another leader to game our electoral system, and using the police to harrass a reporter.

          I can’t imagine Jacinda pulling a waiter’s hair even after being asked to stop.

          I can’t envisage her yelling “Show me the money!!”

          He made money, but was offered no important world role in banking or in commerce, apart from a role with NZ’s ANZ Bank.
          Perhaps because by nature he is a taker not a giver, and is loose with the truth.

          Jacinda Ardern has been in Parliament 11 years, has lived in the Pacific and New Zealand, and traveled in her youth. She is 38 years old and is 7 years younger than John Key was when he became the Prime Minister.

          Attributes? Trait Characteristic Sign Ability.

          John Key had a clear majority in his first election. A sign of his ideas was

          One. Cancelling the deposits to the “Cullen Fund”
          Two. Halving the Government’s contribution to a new Kiwi Saver Account Three. Raising GST, (after he said he wouldn’t)
          Four. Borrowing to give Tax cuts.
          Five. His actions lowered NZ’s credit rating from AAA positive to AA negative.
          If by “He was successful””, you mean he had a a fortune (a reported 50 million)
          Yes true. But he was not a successful P.M. for NZ. Wewere as a country worse off The ordinary person 26% poorer and the top 10% were almost equally 25% better off.

          Grant Robertson is managing well, and like Cullen, he is aware of the rainy day.
          Jacinda Ardern is managing a 3 party Coalition with grace and strength.
          She faced Mico plasma Bovis with practical alacrity.
          She has represented us on several occasions very well indeed. Very credible,
          and this is after 15 months. So she is to be admired.

          • CHCOff

            There was also the ref. (which no one asked for) to try and change proportional representation, the one to try and change the flag.

            The ref on selling the assets was ignored.

            Post modern banana republicanism & functional market destruction for nz.

            To be fair, it was in some respects a continuation or progression of prior aspects ot policy making that laid the bed for it.

          • Anne

            But Patricia Bremner, you missed the most important negative. She’s a woman!

            I think you would find underneath the layers of hypocrisy , that is what Shadrach really cannot accept. She’s a woman.

            • Shadrach

              Being a woman is neither a qualification nor an impediment. In fact it is irrelevant.

          • Shadrach

            Can you imagine JA being evasive when asked about the kiwibuild targets? Failing to hold incompetent ministers to account? It is seriously difficult to take your comments even remotely seriously. But you’re right about one thing…Robertson’s sharp. An excellent performer, who is covering the PM’s incompetence.

            • Stuart Munro

              Where were you while Nick’s Myth was making such a bollocks of Housing even Bill English had to change his job title then? Seems you don’t really care about results, only a perception of weakness that lets you give rein to your negativity.

              “She then became PM because of the bitterness of an aging xenophobia” sic

              No, she became PM because not even Winston could tolerate the level of dishonesty and dysfunction that characterized the previous government.

              • Shadrach

                Ah when did Nick Smith enter the discussion? I assume that’s the best defence you have of a PN who is so abjectly out of her depth.

      • SaveNZ 11.2.2

        Look where that left us, John Key sold the power and NZ government now earns less money in dividends and the sale price already lower than unpaid dividends and the sale price money frittered away too… oh and people can’t afford to heat their houses so now we have the winter payments to the elderly not means tested, meanwhile toddlers die as parents can’t afford to run the heat pump in their state house.

        • patricia bremner

          SaveNZ, The winter payment was to all beneficiaries, not just pensioners. It was not means tested so all on any benefit could get it without affecting their current benefit.

          • SaveNZ

            Thanks Patricia bremner, I though it was just pensioners. But as many other groups are now in poverty too, (aka you actually earn less on minimum wages than a beneficiary with 3 children) maybe it would have been better to keep the power in government hands so that everyone could afford power…

    • CHCOff 11.3

      One step at a time, but the well being budget is the direction of saying culture is a asset and we need to start valuing it better.

      Because if you have a good culture to sell, then the other side of the deal has a opportunity to mutually grow & sustain it’s own in solidarity with yours and with that, the numbers and volumes adjust to those market conditions accordingly – not the other way around.

      And that is what people, which market economics looks to serve, are looking for.

      The richness of culture, can break down barriers between relatively richer and poorer trading partners in mutual win win.

      Well being budgets = trade being a mutally learning experience of relationships and regional identities.

  10. Ankerrawshark 12

    Now when kiwi build is mentioned and derided I will say three words. Sydney opera house. Go figure James

    • alwyn 12.1

      I am sure you are joking.

      Consider the Sydney Opera House
      It was expected to take 4 years to build. It actually took 14.
      It was expected to cost $7 million. It finally cost $102 million.
      The acoustics, particularly in the Concert Hall were poor. The sound reflectors hung above the stage did some good but were not a complete solution. They had another go recently but I don’t know how successful it was.

      In other words it looks wonderful from outside but was a lousy building for its planned purpose.
      Kiwibuild doesn’t even look good and has been a total flop as far as providing affordable housing.

      Now what was your point in this comment again?

  11. James 13

    Nashie seems to get a little mouthy when working out at the gym.


    I’m sure it’s not a roid rage tho. 🙂

    Edit ^ obv there is no evidence to indicate that in the slightest. It was written with a smile – thinking of all the claims on here saying that key was drunk or the like.

    To be clear – I’m not making any accusations.

    • Muttonbird 13.1

      How do you explain Key’s penchant for pulling ponytails?

      • James 13.1.1

        I never did.

        • Robert Guyton

          You weren’t asked’ How did you”, you were asked, how do you.
          You don’t, because your culture doesn’t allow you to consider the possibility of deviance in your heroes.

    • Peter 13.2

      I obviously don’t know if you have kids or grand kids.

      I’m sure you’d be thrilled to have them from their year dot, as soon as they could think and talk, casting aspersions on people as a base attitude to life. It would be lovely if everyone had the same outlook, being nasty making stuff up, having people be suspicious and malevolent. The pernicious effects would be great if we created that sort of rancorous world.

      Have a nice day.

    • veutoviper 13.3

      Old news, James. We already discussed it up thread at 6.

      Silly season stuff – just like some peoples’* behaviour is on here today.

      There has been enough overheating outside recently- we don’t need it here.

      Note where the apostrophe is. Not aimed at you alone.

      • Muttonbird 13.3.1

        Umm. Shouldn’t that be people’s?

        Peoples’ is the possessive for a group of peoples, not a group of individual people.

        • veutoviper

          Probably!!! Oooppps – too late now; hung by my own petard. LOL.

          [Slaps own hand.]

          PS – see my reply at 3.1.1,2,2 …

    • cleangreen 13.4

      Wise move James;
      You said “I’m not making any accusations.”

      See my comment at about another mate of yours James, as another ex national cling on seems to be inside the tent as being heavily involved in ‘Kiwi Build’.

      ” I’m not making any accusations.”

    • Gabby 13.5

      Gnashy might’ve just sat on one of his nuts jimbo, that’d get him going.

  12. greywarshark 14

    Looking for NZ inflation measured against others in OECD. The table does not include Australia and New Zealand in its monthly readings.

    Go to the annual ones and it is a rocky ride for many countries. Russia up to 15% at one time. Switzerland at -0.01 I think at one stage. Apparently getting near stasis is getting near entropy or something. I think we need a different band for ours.
    between 1.5 and 5 would mean a halfway of about 3 which I think would allow some leeway and more spending and business activity.


    • alwyn 14.1

      I’m sure that if the CoL bring in a CGT they will be winding up the target for inflation in New Zealand. Then, if they do what mad Mike Cullen wants they will be able to slap a huge wad of Capital Gains tax on everyone, not because people are actually making gains but because inflation will be taxed as if the returns were real.
      Governments, in general, love inflation. It winds up the revenue from taxes by far more than the inflation rate.

  13. Andre 15

    Possible reasons why vaccine messaging is failing with anti-vaxxers.


    For a long time I’ve kinda wondered why the idea that vaccines are just a training tool to help your body learn to fight disease hasn’t been a bigger part of vaccine messaging. Promoting the idea that they educate and strengthen the defenses you naturally have. That kind of presentation may help get through to those put off by the idea that vaccines are some kind of artificial technological shield against the ‘natural environment’.

  14. cleangreen 16

    cleangreen 16
    2 February 2019 at 12:06 pm
    The end is in sight for our civilisation as we are witnessing the meltdown of our environment by Climate change due to the expansion of old transport methology and massive inceasing CO2 emissions that are now causing unstable global financial turmoil everywhere we look now.

    The INF treaty is now dead after in 1980s anti-nuclear pact when Reagan and Gorbachev first came to like and respect each other, and formed the basis of a working relationship, now the US has just broken the 1980s anti-nuclear expansion pact that Regan brokered with Gorbachev.

    We saw the GFC occur after years of corporate greed destroyed our finaincial security built up since the second world war and in 2008 we bailed the banks and insurance companies out and now our government is investigating both of these crimal global corporations for their rorting and greed that has permiated these instituations.

    Now we were told this week that the 25% loss of antartic ice is imminent and a one metre sea rise will occur as a result of uncontrolled CO2 levels are rising still today.

    The Head of Local Government NZ has warned government that locval councils are not financially able to cope with incereasing sea levels so we are now nearing the end.

  15. Peter 17

    Brexit & The Spayed Parliament

  16. joe90 18

    I’m forever gobsmacked by what America did to black citizens.

    There were 130,334 African-Americans registered to vote in Louisiana in 1896; in 1904, there were 1,342. In Virginia that year, the estimated black turnout in the Presidential election was zero.


    • SaveNZ 18.1

      Since we allowed prisoners not to vote which have a higher percentage of Maori while giving citizenship to individuals within 11 days, maybe we should take a look in the mirror about our own electoral and social engineering disgraces in NZ.

  17. cleangreen 19

    Waitangi Day 2019 – With Brash going, could it explode?

    Jacinda will just offer John Brash to a meeting with ‘a cup of tea’, – you can bet.

    She will copy John Key to a ‘T’ in times of ‘high noon’ in the air as it will attract the media and does she like the media? yes yes yes.!!!

  18. bwaghorn 20


    Venezuela explained??
    Not socialism at all gossie Just good old fashioned greed.

  19. Andre 21

    Y’all reckon maybe when the cannabis referendum comes around we should ask about ‘shrooms at the same time? Denver’s doin it.


    • Cinny 21.1

      Shrooms are now being used/trialed to help give a bit some quality of life to those in end of life care.


      “terminally ill subjects who were exposed to a dose of psilocybin showed a significant and enduring reduction in anxiety, depression, and existential distress.

      In a follow-up assessment some six months after the treatment, 70 percent of the patients from the NYU trial later reflected on the psilocybin experience as one of the top five most spiritually significant experiences of their entire lives, while 87 percent reported increased life satisfaction overall.”

      Guidance and information is needed when taking shrooms.

      A staple of a shamans medicine cabinet.

      Ever tried shrooms Andre?

      • Andre 21.1.1

        “Ever tried shrooms Andre?”

        No. I’ve never been in a situation or head-space where that kind of experience had any appeal to me.

        I just think it’s stupid and harmful that we treat it as an experience to be prohibited on pain of criminal punishment. I’d much rather we treated it as something that does hold acknowledged risks to be managed and regulated in order to be made relatively safely available to those interested in that kind of thing. Just like the risky outdoorsy speed/adrenaline experiences that are much more my thing aren’t banned (because people do get injured or killed participating in those activities), but are made available in ways that manage the risks.

  20. Muttonbird 22

    President Pelosi doing a great job of diffusing the worst excesses of the orange shit-gibbon.


    • alwyn 22.1

      “President Pelosi”?
      My, my. Your imagination is really running away with you today.

      • Muttonbird 22.1.1

        She’s behaving more presidential than Trump. Whoever heard of the leader of the house so regularly before these current times.

        Trumps reckless and unpredictable behaviour is thrusting Democratic leadership into the spotlight and it’s looking pretty good in comparison.

        • alwyn

          There were many vastly more famous Speakers than Pelosi.
          The position used to be a much more powerful one when the House members owed their position to their party rather than running as quasi-independents in the way they do now.

          Clay was very powerful in the early 19th century. He even decided who the President would be in 1824 when he promoted Adams over Jackson..
          The Speaker’s power faded from then until about 1880. There were a string of very powerful ones after that including Reed, Cannon, Longworth and Rayburn. More recent powerhouses were Albert, O’Neill and Gingrich. They were all much better known than Pelosi.
          The most powerful, at least for a while, was Cannon.
          He had the power to totally control the House.

          “He determined the agenda of the House, appointed the members of all committees, chose committee chairmen, headed the Rules Committee, and determined which committee heard each bill. He vigorously used his powers to ensure that Republican proposals were passed by the House”.

          They finally rebelled in 1911 but he had 8 years of total dominance.
          Pelosi would love to have a fraction of his power.

        • McFlock

          Historical pedantry (and revisionism – Clay was a failed candidatep ledging support to the one of the remaining contenders) aside, Pelosi shows a darn sight more guts than most speakers in my memory. The ones in the 1990s against Clinton were rabid, but fearful. Pelosi’s nudge about the state of the union address was a reminder that the oval office isn’t the only one with power, but it also showed an understanding of her enemy and what he values.

    • joe90 22.2

      Pelosi certainly has the procedural wood on the dolt.

      House Speaker Nancy Pelosi could move to block President Trump from invoking a national emergency to build a border wall, forcing Senate Republicans to choose between preserving congressional power and crossing the White House.

      The California Democrat, under a seldom-used statute, could put a binding “resolution of disapproval” on the House floor to counter Trump should he claim constitutional powers to unilaterally build a border wall. The president is threatening action if Congress refuses his demand for $5.7 billion in border wall funding. Friday, Trump expressed skepticism that a bipartisan commission seeking a deal on the wall to avoid another government shutdown would succeed, saying there was a “good chance” he would declare an emergency.


      • North 22.2.1

        Here’s a thought. Trump will invoke ’emergency’ regardless of anything. Steps taken under its banner will be challenged in the courts. Trump’s “big, beautiful” Wall will remain ‘unfinished business’ for considerably longer than it might in the run up to 2020. And the knuckle draggers, whipped up by the Swamp-Creature-in-Chief, will elevate to even higher levels of cultist hatefulness. Wherein it is perceived that everyone else is being “unfair” to the Swamp-Creature. Exactly what the Swamp-Creature wants.

    • Jenny - How to get there? 22.3

      US President Trump becomes GOP obstacle in border talks as shutdown looms
      Erik Wasson, Laura Litvan
      19:34, Feb 02 2019

      “He’s not supreme dictator,” said Sen. Jon Tester, D-Mont., who is on the conference committee…..


      But he wants to be

      In a Fox News interview Friday, President Donald Trump took his fawning over authoritarian monsters to new levels, saying of North Korean dictator Kim Jong Un, “He is the head of a country and I mean he is the strong head … He speaks and his people sit up at attention. I want my people to do the same.”


      Trump not only admires dictators, he envies them. Surely stinging over Kim’s state-run media coverage, Trump tweeted after his Singapore visit: “Our Country’s biggest enemy is the Fake News so easily promulgated by fools.” Yes, Trump views the media as a far bigger enemy than North Korea. Achieving his larger goal of destroying any sense of truth — which all authoritarians aspire to do — requires he destroy the institution that keeps pointing out that he is an inveterate liar. As he told CBS’s Lesley Stahl, his attacks are meant to “discredit” reporters so that people won’t believe negative stories about him.

      Or as Yale historian Timothy Snyder writes in his 2017 book, On Tyranny, “post-truth is pre-fascism.”…..


  21. SaveNZ 23

    Davos 2019: Historian Rutger Bregman berates billionaires at World Economic Forum over tax avoidance

    (must be why we have down graded our arts degrees like history as useless degrees).

  22. patricia bremner 24

    Thankfully there are a few people left who are not afraid to speak Truth to Power. Rutger Bregman Historian to the billionaires at Davos.

  23. Observer Tokoroa 25

    The Housing Crisis

    One of our more useless Trolls forgot to tell you that the Charlotte Graham-McLay 31 Jan 2019 report, drawn from the New York Times, had to correct the information it Published.

    With great delight The Troll on here was rocketing on about how good it was to have insufficient housing in New Zealand.

    The “Kiwi Build” Housing is expected to produce 300 homes this year.
    So far, 1100 State houses have been built.

    The Troll, alongside Mrs Paula Bennett and Sir Billy English deny any housing shortage or excessive cost in purchasing a house or renting a house in low wage New Zealand.

    Charlotte Graham-McLay, apparently along with the New York Times claims NZ Housing is equal to or exceeds Hong Kong. Which is said to have the Highest Cost.

    The Trolls of Greed have been given the task of faking and falsifying information, and thereby destroying persons who are trying to put New Zealand back together again.

  24. sumsuch 27

    This is 1939. Apart from a 100 times. Total Mobilisation. The democratic egalitarianism of the WW 2 mobilisation set society up for decades. Yes, this time is pleasurable and leisurely. If we can’t put that aside we’ll all personally die of hunger.

    All but climate change is far secondary. But we have an inner softness unlike our elders.

  25. Jenny - How to get there? 28

    An excuse for war writ big

    Remember the US accusations that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction that were used as an excuse for war, but were later proven to be false?

    Now the US is playing a bigger and even more dangerous game.

    Russia does have weapons of mass destruction. But Russia is also being accused by the US, of having weapons of mass destruction with a first strike capability banned by treaty, an accusation the Russians deny.

    Designed to destroy a country’s retaliatory counter measures, before they can be launched. These are the sort of first strike weapon that makes previously unthinkable nuclear exchange possible,

    Putin blames US for breaching nuclear arms treaty
    China has urged the US to resolve the differences with Russia without pulling out of the treaty.


    ….Foreign minister Sergey Lavrov said the White House had ignored Russia’s offer to inspect the cruise missile the US claimed violated the pact.

    He also accused the US of violating the pact by deploying missile interceptors in Romania that use launchers that could hold land-based cruise missiles…..

    ….NATO has already said it “fully supports” the US, adding: “Allies regret that Russia, as part of its broader pattern of behaviour, continues to deny its INF Treaty violation, refuses to provide any credible response, and has taken no demonstrable steps toward returning to full and verifiable compliance.”

    China’s government appealed to both nations to maintain the treaty.

    The country’s foreign ministry warned there could be “adverse consequences” after the Trump administration withdrew.

    A ministry statement said: “China is opposed to the US withdrawal and urges the US and Russia to properly resolve differences through constructive dialogue.”

    The treaty was signed toward the end of the Cold War between then presidents Mikhail Gorbachev and Ronald Reagan. It bans ground-launched missiles with a range between 500 and 5,500km.

    • Jenny - How to get there? 28.1

      Donald Trump, The War President.

      The Wall Street Journal is reporting the U.S.-backed effort to oust Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro is just the first step in the Trump administration’s plan to reshape Latin America—with Cuba next on its radar. According to the report, the U.S. is planning to announce new measures against Cuba in the coming weeks, including new sanctions and restoring Cuba’s designation as a state sponsor of terrorism. The moves could severely hamper foreign investment into the country. According to The Wall Street Journal, the U.S. then plans to target Nicaragua. In November, national security adviser John Bolton dubbed the three nations the “troika of tyranny.” Last week, Vice President Mike Pence said that President Trump is “not a fan” of U.S. interventions abroad, except for in “this hemisphere.”


    • Gabby 28.2

      If Pootie really wants to give el Chumpo the droop, a naval base just around the corner from Guantanamo might be an idea. With missiles.

  26. Jenny - How to get there? 29

    “I will rule you like a King” Sideshow Bob

    Donald Trump comes ever closer to the type of autocratic rule he admires.


    Further complicating the talks is a back-and-forth between Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) and President Trump, who is doubling down on his threat of declaring a national emergency to build the U.S.-Mexico border wall.

  27. joe90 30

    Sobering Sunday read about a decaying world order.

    In the search for parallels to today’s world, scholars and practitioners have looked as far afield as ancient Greece, where the rise of a new power resulted in war between Athens and Sparta, and the period after World War I, when an isolationist United States and much of Europe sat on their hands as Germany and Japan ignored agreements and invaded their neighbors. But the more illuminating parallel to the present is the Concert of Europe in the nineteenth century, the most important and successful effort to build and sustain world order until our own time. From 1815 until the outbreak of World War I a century later, the order established at the Congress of Vienna defined many international relationships and set (even if it often failed to enforce) basic rules for international conduct. It provides a model of how to collectively manage security in a multipolar world.

    That order’s demise and what followed offer instructive lessons for today—and an urgent warning. Just because an order is in irreversible decline does not mean that chaos or calamity is inevitable. But if the deterioration is managed poorly, catastrophe could well follow.

    (alt link work around the site rego policy)


  28. Macro 31

    Just in case you haven’t been Googling in recent days, Google Doodles has been celebrating Sojourner Truth.
    I didn’t know anything about this remarkable woman until I stumbled across a article about her on Vox.
    She was according to Google

    a powerful advocate for justice and equality in the United States of America during the 19th century who paved the way for future generations.

    Born an enslaved person in Ulster County, New York around 1797, Isabella Baumfree endured the horrors of the American slave trade—as well as seeing her children sold into servitude. Despite the hardships she faced, she went on to win her freedom, changing her name to Sojourner Truth, and starting a new life as a traveling and prominent preacher, abolitionist, and suffragist.

    During her advocacy journeys throughout the country, Truth met activists William Lloyd Garrison and Frederick Douglass, who encouraged her to speak out against the evils of slavery. She published a memoir in 1850, which earned her widespread acclaim as an author and speaker. She was even invited to meet with Abraham Lincoln in the White House. In her autobiography, Sojourner Truth recounted the day she escaped with her infant daughter, forced to leave her other children behind. With her daughter, she was taken in by Isaac and Maria Van Wagenen, who helped Sojourner Truth sue for the freedom of her five-year-old son Peter, who had been sold illegally by her former slavemaster. This historic lawsuit made her one of the first black women to successfully sue a white man in the U.S. The courthouse where the case was heard is referenced in today’s Doodle.

    Here is a reenactment of her most famous speech “Ain’t I a Woman?” regarded as one of the most power pieces of oratory in American history.

  29. Eco Maori 32

    Kia ora The AM Show The data on our health system cancer treatment shows that the system is failing minority cultures Maori sit on top of the list of patients dieing early than non Maori by 20 years the patriarchal system is failing Maori. If one goes around rual communitys Eastern and Northern Maori Maori Communitys you will see that over crowding and poverty. So I say these communities that were the back bone of Aotearoa economy in the 1940s deserve to be helped as the banks have discriminated against Maori even if the land was in one title. The land as duncan put is over grown waste land /But when one looks at the land from a different perspective it has a positive effect as the wildlife is thriving carbon is sequence and the environment is much better and in the near future we will reward people for looking after the environment. simons government let the retailers the banks insurance company’s the power companies rip the people of billions and gave the wealthy family support and taxs cuts funneling all the money to the top and you know what happen in the end that patriarchal system falls flat on its face failing big time. Chris you look like you been going to the jym working out. There you go duncan kicking the poor people the reason why they they can’t afford to pay the rates is rich pricks like you discriminat LIKE YOU are doing now and don’t pay them fairly. Don the system is corrupt the only people who get served by the system are the the wealthy like you and of course a Maori cop will go with you and wave a little flag for the. don how can you say that when the facts show Maoris under the bridge in jails you think your rich mates are going to all of a sudden stop discriminating against Maori YEA RIGHT. Maori are capable but not when the systems are stacked against US look at my case I cannot even get a fair deal from the justice system I have filed Official documents requesting documents from the system and just get ignored because I have no money to pay a big lawyers.
    That’s the way Shane you tell duncan how it is the system is setup against MAORI.
    That land is not useless your mates got white glasses on I have been incrouging Maori back home to work the whenua as we owe our Mokopunas a positive prosperous future another bonus about that so called waste land is it would not take much to get the land certified ORGANIC and then we get the premium export price for our produce. ducan they are your words when you read them out live on TV neanderthal don’t try and deflect your racist views onto other people corresponding to you. Imagine all the billions the system has ripped off Maori. Your m8 shonky has been running Pharmac for the last 9 years don’t you think him and simon have some skin in this blamed game you play.
    The fast rate of cancer rising in the Western Papatuanukue is because the companies are selling us products with cancer causing agents in them the companies know this and cover it up they will make more profits selling us cancer drugs to dubble jeopard win win for the 00.1 %.
    Ka pai Ella Henry New Zealand is unrecognisable without Maori culture but some just want to capitalise on Maori culture but don’t like to share the capital with Maori namely that person across the desk. I have said Maori have fared better than other colonized people but there is a long way to go to be EQUAL and don’t try and give all the settlers the credit for this phenomenon it was OUR Tipuna MANA that caused that and some humane settlor whom admire Maori cultures. I don’t see what’s wrong with a teacher setting up her class to make the class easier for her to teach. When one is on the tools one has to spend thousands on tools to make the jobs easier I have spent thousands on tools for jobs and never been compensated.
    The positive capital that NZ gets because of Maori Mana and culture will run into the billions why our sports teams wear black our airlines paint their planes exporters use our art and culture to sell their products but racist people like duncan don’t want to share how greedy and neolithic and DUMB
    The reasons the people don’t go back to the whenua is because the powers that be have been suppressing Maori communities The government OWES Maori hundreds of billion of assets that has been used to make this country so wealthy. Ka kite ano your cheaks turned bright red last week duncan did the truth hurt you selfish self centre EGO got me a idiot troll trying to capitalise on ECO Maori mana

  30. Eco Maori 33

    You know that old saying it’s better to teach a person to fish than to give them a fish IE investing $100 million in Maori farmers is better than paying the next generation the dole the fourth industry revelotion is
    The Ion age quantum computers green energy a new cash less system that rewards people for being honest humble and humane the positive hits will reward the good people the negative hits will hurt the bad people hence a happy society a healthy Papatuanukue clean environment Ka kite ano

  31. Eco Maori 34

    Kia ora Newshub it looks like everything is going Ka pai at Waitangi.
    It looks to me that some one is stir up the environment at the lower Marae at Waitangi.????.
    Some people are idiots the person lost it and made a bomb hoax in that Australia Air port.
    Good on the person who ran a give a little page for the man’s Mr Ho, s family after he was in a accident and died kiwis are cool.
    That’s a good add the Ram one for the Americans Super Bowl team the Rams. Their Toyota opposum add is a classic I say that they will go a long way with their Kiwi wit in the advertising Papatuanukue.
    Well I don’t know the articles of the Treaty of Waitangi one more thing of our history that ECO has to study.
    Peter Posa was a good man and a awesome guitarist condolences to his whanau.
    Ka kite ano

  32. The lawsuit against New Zealand will be a complete “no, no”, but the ship expelled from the SPRFML list will not be requested. The boats are not kept on the court list, there are international organizations and the discretion of the international organization. In my opinion, Russell has completely misinterpreted the difference between the two.

    So Jones did not violate the cabinet manual. Actually, it may be advisable to support your New Zealand company (and your activities with which you are working). The company will be treated well in the future.

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