I had read the second, but not Dane Giraud's and it was a good article, clearly identifying the important issues, and summing up well:
That internal monologue I mentioned, convincing you that the abuse you see is somehow earned – that women wanting to voice concerns about their rights are asking for violence and intimidation – Well, you can start by canceling that transmission.
I don't believe the violence was "earned", but I believe it was easily foreseen.
No one, it seems, is pointing the finger at PP for the fractured skull, in the way fingers were pointed at the forestry industry for the slash-destruction.
NZ Govt was the one primarily at fault for allowing sport to dictate politics. We should have boycotted South Africa including with sport. Ces Blazey was the figurehead of the NZRFU that actually should have known better. NZ at large was at fault because of the notion that sport overrode good sense.
NZ Govt is primarily at fault here too for introducing this divisive Self ID/No Debate duo. Not allowing women to be heard, enacting possibly threatening to women measures.
‘That internal monologue I mentioned, convincing you that the abuse you see is somehow earned – that women wanting to voice concerns about their rights are asking for violence and intimidation – Well, you can start by canceling that transmission.”
Dane Giraud (link above)
Yes, because both self ID and the "Gay Conversion" legislation was draped in so many rainbow flags that everybody overlooked the additions of "gender" and "gender identity" which rendered them useful only to the gender ideologists.
Of the 6,609 submissions, 73% are against the changes with just 25% supportive of them!
The remaining 2% represent duplicated/ supplemental/ unclear submissions.
Of the 73% of submissions that are against the changes, 20% are either stated to support SUFW or appear to have been created using our submission builder.
So Robert does that mean that we simply can't have events such as Let Women Speak because the organisers should be aware there will be violence?
Maybe organisers could expect people not to be violent ? Maybe the organisers could also expect appropriate police action to prevent violence from occurring
At the end of the day, the only person responsible for punching an elderly woman in the face is the person who punched her, but what you're suggesting sounds like you're getting a little bit close towards some form of victim blaming?
Based on your logic (or the point you seem to be alluding to) it would be hard to see how we could have any public events which are about issues affecting society because these days it's pretty much a given that some idiotic, pathetic, weak, cowardly people will always show up looking for a little bullying action.
You are projecting your view into my words, MichaelP, and finding "victim blaming" where there is none. If I meant to claim that, I would have said, "It was her own fault!", which is not what I've said at all; don't feel bad though; several other commenters here have done exactly the same thing, one even suggesting that I claimed "she was asking for it", citing a short-skirt-wearing rape victim meme in her reply. This assumptive debating is making the issue very challenging for anyone other than the "pro-PP faction" to comment on the issue. I'd be wise to have not engaged at all, or at least to stop now, but feel there's a need for some poor fool, scapegoat person, to at least have a go at it 🙂
You say, "Based on your logic (or the point you seem to be alluding to)"
and therein lies the problem Incognito outlined yesterday; the keen-ness to attribute intention where there is none.
"Maybe organisers could expect people not to be violent ?"
Maybe. Organisers of public events where controversial figures are intending to speak "could" take extra care in the protection of vulnerable people, especially elderly people.
Try this thought experiment, MichaelP:
You are the sole organiser of a second PP event; same venue. You have seen what happened at the first. You understand the anxieties held by one particular community around PP. Do you give the event the go-ahead, welcoming all, including the vulnerable and the abusive, or do you tailor the event to the circumstances? Do you simply "expect people not to be violent"? and take no steps to ensure that is the case, for the sake of anyone vulnerable to harm?
Why? Because at least one Green Party MP incited it? Or because trans activists can't any longer be trusted to engage in this conversation peacefully? Or both?
You're the one who claimed you believe 'it was easily foreseen'. So tell me why you think that. Do you not trust trans activists to respond within the law? Or do you expect that a tweet by a prominent MP that she is 'so ready to fight Nazi's' might just have the effect of rarking people up?
So might is always right is that what you are saying?
So the women wanting to hear their own speaker were doubly jeopardised by
– the topic of the meeting not being flavour of the month (I mean women's rights, women's issues and free speech are so boring)
– not being able to defend their right to free speech by violence.
The meeting before this one was in Australia. NZ is not in Australia. We had an expectation that the Policing would be adequate and competent as it had been before at other protests in NZ.
I don't believe any one person was at fault, but some people didn't read the tealeaves, didn't act responsibly in the knowledge that strong protest was likely.
Which people? The thugs who turned up and hit the elderly lady? The thugs who grabbed a woman and hurled her to the ground? The thugs who punched an elderly man? Those people?
This reads like victim blaming. Women in the past have had to out up with this along with terms such as 'witch' and 'crone'.
The person with the fractured skull was exercising her right to stand waiting to attend an event with PP. This event was more or less gate crashed by the protestors who chanted, pulled the barricades down and then charged aggressively at the band rotunda.
The Let Women Speak event was not the interloper here. The interloper was the large number of protestors who felt that violence was justified so people, mainly women, could not exercise free speech. The fault clearly lies with this ill controlled crowd not PP or the Let Women Speak crowd.
Wood said:
" “It was also generally accepted by many parties before me that Ms Keen-Minshull’s views may well be potentially harmful to those communities, communities which are deserving of protection, being particularly vulnerable to harm and discrimination.”"
Clearly the politicians all round the world have bought the Job Lot '20 (untrue but possibly difficult to fact check) talking points on trans victimhood".
That's not the case, Cricklewood but I can see you believe it is.
Pro-Posse commenters here seem to hold very un-charitable, unkind views toward transgender people. Some of the language used has been violent, imo ("chop of his penis" etc.)
If I was a transgender person, or the parent of one, I'd feel anxious reading these threads. I can see why the community could have felt the same way on hearing of PP's impending visit.
Pro-Posse commenters here seem to hold very un-charitable, unkind views toward transgender people. Some of the language used has been violent, imo ("chop of his penis" etc.)
If your second sentence is linked to your first one (that the violent language has been used on TS) – then I'd really like you to link to this – so I can condemn it.
I don't recall this at all.
If it is not, then this is really, really misleading – and you should apologize.
I am charitably assuming that your reference to Posie is a typo.
I've not seen anything like that, care to provide a link to the comment/s you are refering to?
"Pro-Posse commenters here seem to hold very un-charitable, unkind views toward transgender people. Some of the language used has been violent, imo ("chop of his penis" etc.)"
weka – I read this today, perhaps in a link. I'm happy to sit in moderation till I get a chance to find it (still filming, the crew arrived just now and are planning today's programme of filming.).
weka, it's clear that my time here on TS is up; there's no way I can rise above the atmosphere that's developed here. Others have fled the coup, I suspect, and I can't see a way to extricate myself from the mess of pottage. Not that I want to either. The focus has become exclusionary. It puzzles me greatly, the change that has come over the team here. Where before, teasing out issues was acceptable, with this issue, only complete agreement with the (now) dominant narrative seems allowable. Despite believing that I am able to understand issues such as this one well, I am being repeatedly told that I am unable to see the truth and am in fact, inflaming the situation. I am so acutely reminded of The Stroppery and this is not a good memory for me 🙂
I haven't read all the comments in the past day, was doing other things yesterday. Which is unfortunate because you did bring something concrete yesterday with Frank's post and I have been wanting to respond but haven't had the time.
The impression I have is that you've been doing your usual commenting of asking questions and making statements to tease things out but not making clear arguments with back up. Many people here are have a lot of experience with this issue and a great deal of knowledge and will argue hard from that because of what is at stake especially for women. I suspect you haven't had this kind of push back here before and it can be intense.
The easiest way to deal with that ime, is to bring arguments that are thought through and that have clear back up at the time. People here respect that even where they disagree, because it gives them something to think about and respond to.
Sometimes it works just to take a break for a while. You will be welcome to come back if you do take a break. There are other things to be talked about too, the election, how the Greens are going, where the good cultural shifts are happening (and where they are blocked).
Hope all goes well with the filming, looking forward to that!
Perhaps, weka, you might post a retraction from me, saying, I may well be mistaken about that and read that comment in a link from here. I don't wish to assign violent language to any TS commenter.
thanks Robert, that’s all that’s needed 👍 What we find is that when people make controversial claims about what others on TS are saying, without linking, everything gets more agitated then it already was. You can understand that at this time, accuracy matters.
Fwiw, I can’t find that phrase in recent TS history (past few months)
It’s very crude, and very Germaine Greer. I don’t consider it violence against trans women who have surgery. In terms of TS I think about it alongside the arguments we’ve had here where men have said they have a right to have sex with a woman while she is asleep even after it’s been pointed out to them that it’s against the law. It’s finding that balance between robust debate and making the space good enough for more people to take part in that. I have no doubt that trans women avoid TS, but I know that women do as well.
Likewise I understand why many trans people felt anxious about KJK coming to NZ. And I understand the range of feelings that many women have in watching the mob attacking her and other women, and stopping NZ women from speaking at Let Women Speak.
None of this is going to go away, so we may we as well push on through and see if we can hash out the issues and come to something better.
I saw the words "have a right to have sex…" and thought oh here we go, some dickheads whining about not getting sex and giving men a bad name. Then I carried on reading to see that Men on here have stated it's ok or their right to have sex with a woman who is asleep??? OMFG!
Wow I missed that discussion. Unbelievable. That is trying to defend or justify rape for goodness sake.
Despicable viewpoints aside, how could anyone possibly enjoy having sex with someone who is asleep, assuming that the more obvious enjoyment your partner is having means the more enjoyment you're having??
Or am I just showing my age again….sigh.
Anyway, sorry to carry on an obviously older and by the sounds of it pretty offensive discussion I just saw the words and bristled…
it used to come up in the Assange debates, because some people were so keen to not have him charged they denied there were any problems with how he behaved to the two women.
Not that I want bring all that up again, but the salient point is that men objecting to rude, crude or harsh language about trans people in one of the biggest political debates in a generation need to understand the wider TS context for robust debate. If we’re arguing about sensitivity and who might be put off commenting. And, most of the GC comments about trans people specifically (rather than ideology) aren’t rude, crude or harsh.
It's a very difficult subject, I'm pretty much a full on libertarian when it comes to social issues but can understand why biological woman feel threatened when it comes to spaces like bathrooms etc a woman feeling that way doesn't make them a fascist, nazi or a terf.
Sadly the rhetoric has become increasingly heated to the point where seemingly some feel physical violence is justified based loosely on the its ok to punch a nazi.
Imo our media and politicians added to that with the language used in the lead up to the event.
I'm not sure how this ever gets resolved but the path things are going down now it seems resolution becomes increasingly difficult.
Thank-you Robert for your herculean effort to redress the balance over this vexed issue. It has been pretty one sided and most have chosen to stay well away from the subject. I don't blame them one little bit. It has not been a pleasant experience.
I recall a reference to the “chop off his penis” but it might have been within a link and not a direct quote from a commenter. Whatever, no-one should have even linked to anything containing language like that.
This "incomprehension/poor comprehension" meme that's thriving here is regrettable, imo.
It doesn't pay to imply that some people are stupid. It's useful to question whether believing the other guy is stupid is a heads-up to check ones own bias/blinkers, especially where some of those who appear to "one" as failing to comprehend have previously provided intelligent commentary on other issues.
Sorry Robert, I have read your comment a few times and I don’t know what you mean. Where is the incomprehension meme? Are you saying that I am implying that someone is stupid?
I was interested in why Anne thought that no-one should ever link to language like Greer used.
What it does say is that if you are a man and you chop off your penis it does not make you a women any more than the wolf dressing up & lying in Grandma's bed makes it Grandma.
I am finding the level of incomprehension worrying.
Distilled down to its starkest in this access to safe spaces for women it says:
Women don't have penises.
The clip from GG is very clearly written and typical GG. I loved her analogy about the long ears, liver spots and long brown coat and the spaniel. And having been exposed to GG for many years there will be a hint of self deprecation there as ageing females (and males) often have still growing longer ears and liver spots. It was laugh out loud to me. Laugh out loud because it is ridiculous.
And yet sadly this is the level of woo that women are supposed to believe uncritically.
It also is a sad commentary on the lengths that people will go, with bodily dysphoria issues. The administration of chemicals, often lifelong leading to sterility etc and the surgical moves that can lead to the after effects of surgery as well as from the procedures themselves.
"I am finding the level of incomprehension worrying."
Get a grip!
Pretty obvious I only recalled seeing the words with no recollection of where or the context. I merely confirmed to Robert I had seen it too because it was being questioned.
Well if you know GG, who has been around commenting on Women's Issues since the 1970s.
(she was the author of the Female Eunuch in 1970s)
then you will remember she has always called a spade a spade.
All she said was that a man cutting off his penis does not make him a woman. She did not say 'cut off yr dick or penis" She commented on her belief system and that is that despite such surgery it does not make him a woman.
I find this to be biologically correct and uncontroversial.
I don't have an issue with your explanation, but fear you have missed the point entirely.
I won't claim you have reading comprehension problems 🙂 but perhaps you might consider the possibility that for some "communities", similar in concept to the community of women being steadfastly defended/promoted/championed here, the community of men (there are still, I believe, men reading TS) who find the choice of phrase/words used by GG and repeated over and over here, disturbing. You women may not, some of us men, do.
What is the phrase Robert, you do not give it so how can I moderate the use if need be if I don't know the phrase you are offended by?
In the GG link the phrase & others is illustrated by ******.
I don't think I have ever seen an agreement from you that men cannot some how turn into women ie recognition of biology.
Your continuing silence means for me that I have to think that you imagine that this can be done, some how.
I usually use this word below unless another word or ***** is in a quote. I did briefly toy with the idea of 'no dicks in dunnies' as a slogan but man, woman, penis, vagina seem quite able to do the 'lifting' here.
Are these offensive? Which one/s should I not be using and what word/s should I replace them by…happy to use male gentitalia and female genitalia if that would be better than penis or vagina?
To be frank I am baffled by you seemingly not getting the issue. Not getting an issue of biology seems to me an issue of comprehension.
Have you read some of the posts by Tsmithfield or RedLogix. Were they helpful?
No one, it seems, is pointing the finger at PP for the fractured skull, in the way fingers were pointed at the forestry industry for the slash-destruction.
That seems to me a remarkably silly analogy.
The proximate cause of the slash destruction was a weather event (or a series of weather events). No one can expect the rain to exercise discretion.
The proximate cause of the fractured skull of the assaulted woman was one (or more) violent protester, egged on by a supporting group – and validated by supporters in positions of authority. All of whom should have known better, and are criminally liable. One can certainly expect protesters to act with human agency and refrain from outright violence.
This was not an 'accident' (someone pushed over in the crush, or tripping and falling) – it was outright deliberate assault.
I condemn those who engaged in violence, those who encouraged violence, and those who have continued to refrain from condemning the violent actions.
That has been my experience though I was not involved in frontline of the Springbok clashes though but I've been to sufficient to know that these were often rowdy affairs & marches up Queen St and along Lambton Quay would have had a fair few booing.
I was around in -81 Both sides in that episode of our history knew that there would be violence (knew there would be, not just thought there might be)
The protesters had their 'battle tactics' as did the police and pro tour supporters. Nobody was under any illusion which is why the frontlines of both sides wore helmets, body armour and carried weapons.
That's a whole different world away from holding an event called Let Women Speak and expecting protesters to be loud but not violent (a perfectly reasonable expectation IMO)
I don't know obviously but would guess that many of the women who were subjected to the violence at LWS all probably wouldn't have gone if they knew beforehand that there was going to be violence. Of course I could be wrong on that.
I guess some may have thought there would probably be violence and may have not ever been in a real life violent confrontation so may not have known quite how terrifying and unlike TV / the movies it actually is but that would be a small minority in my opinion.
Regardless of any of that the fault lies almost entirely with the perpetrators and I believe the police have to bare some responsibility also. If anything in New Zealand, anybody should e able to go to a protest with the assumption it will be peaceful.
What makes this really sinister (violence toward women aside) from my viewpoint is firstly that the violence seemed to probably be deliberate and targeted with a certain amount of pre planning or certainly forethought
Also the actions or lack thereof of the nz police which looks (again from my viewpoint) suspiciously like active or deliberate non engagement. What was the point of police even being there if they weren't going to do any policing?
Either that or the police were too scared to get involved (scared for their own physical safety and / or scared of possible public or ministerial backlash if they were to get physical) which if true would be disturbing in it's own right.
I don't believe the violence was "earned", but I believe it was easily foreseen.
Did you forsee it, Robert?
Perhaps you can link to your comments prior to the PP event/ TRA riot – telling us all that it would end in violence.
I certainly didn't.
I expected that there would be shouting and chanting, banner waving, and speeches, a counter protest (as we've seen many times in the past). An active, noisy, protest, making their point clear.
I expected that the Police would have a firm line between the two groups (also as we've seen in the past). And that there would be degree of pushing at the police line – but that common sense (on all sides) would prevail.
I expected that there would be lots of media coverage – of greater and less bias. And that some politicians, with natural constituencies in the TRA group, would be in attendance.
I did not expect that there would be virtually no police presence, and that when protesters breached the light barricades, they would then go on to violently assault people on the other side. And, I did not expect (though perhaps I should) that senior politicians would refrain from condemning this violence.
My expectation too. But we have a new style of policing now that we didn't know of beforehand.
I did not expect that there would be virtually no police presence, and that when protesters breached the light barricades, they would then go on to violently assault people on the other side. And, I did not expect (though perhaps I should) that senior politicians would refrain from condemning this violence.
And now we have people who would blame those who thought this was going to be protest of old, that 'we' should have known that there would be no police, that the protestors felt egged on and a moral right to be violent. Many protestors still would think they have/had the moral right to be violent I guess.
There has been no specific condemnation of the violence against KJM & those waiting to speak. Just some non specific wiffle waffle, everyones's a winner ooops protestor type stuff from PM Hipkins & complete disregard from Marama Davidson.
Shanreagh – you expected a significant police presence but didn't suspect there might be the potential for pushing and shoving, tomato sauce and worse?
No more than the dozens of other protests which have had a police presence. It used to be routine that, if there was a counter protest signalled (as it very clearly was in this instance), police would firmly keep the two groups apart.
We are not talking about pushing and shoving, or even juvenile stunts like throwing sauce. We're talking about deliberate and targeted violent assault.
So Robert you actually have not found this. Someone found the Germaine Greer post I had put up but she does not espouse what you said she did. So you were incorrect.
Was it predictable: that's my point. I believe many people predicted there would be heated behaviour at the event. Why you didn't think so, I can't say. If I'd been in an advisory position (I wasn't), I'd tell a frail person to stay away or at least, keep their distance. People in heated situations can act in unexpected ways, especially when inflamed by the words and actions of others, as well as expectations formed as the result of previous situations of the same sort (earlier rallies, events on the same grounds, meetings of "the same crew"
So, no you didn't predict it – but seem to now expect that 'others' should have done so.
Rather a double standard, don't you think?
Can you link to explict threats of violence from the TRA protestors made in advance of the PP event? Something that would have led ‘others’ to believe that the counter-protest would descend into violence?
Does it really matter where or how [the] violence started? The issue (i.e. Robert’s issue) is that it could, not should, be foreseen. In fact, there was a challenge in Court the day before the event that centred on the likely prospect of violence erupting.
A rainbow advocacy group says a self-styled women’s rights campaigner could push society over the precipice and incite transphobic violence if she is allowed entry into New Zealand.
The two main things I can see that affect whether the event should have been cancelled ahead of time or not are that 1) did KJK and the organisers reasonably expect the police to keep the peace and 2) the original security team pulled out at the last minute, was the replacement team up to speed?
1) yes
2) don’t know.
What happened in Hobart suggested that similar would happen here. There was discussion about this in feminist circles. I didn’t see anyone predicting the dangerous mobbing of KJK and her team, nor the violence of the kind witnessed (the punching of the elderly woman). The tomato juicing was predictable and within protest norms, the mobbing and elder assault wasn’t. It was shocking, a watershed moment for NZ and it wasn’t in any way KJK or her team’s fault or responsbility.
KJK says things in very strong terms, and much like Germaine Greer she says things in ways that shock some people. Has anyone yet explained why Greer’s or KJK’s speech should be suppressed by making an argument against specific speech beyond ‘I don’t like that, it’s offensive’?
There is an order of magnitude difference between what they say and do and what Nazis say and do.
and, I don’t think the court action beforehand was anything to do with TRA protestor actions. It was about whether KJK’s speech would incite violence against trans people. Not women.
I’m not even talking about whether it should have been cancelled or not – I would not assume to be able to judge this and neither did the actual High Court Judge. It is a moot point, anyway.
What I do feel more confident about is that the risk of political violence has increased in NZ in recent years, which is deplorable but not entirely surprising. One could point to certain events and/or developments, here or overseas, but nothing changes the fact. I’ve linked to this before: https://www.newsroom.co.nz/risk-of-political-violence-this-election-still-high-shaw. This is the context, the backdrop, which is highly relevant.
If one insists on talking specifically about the event that took place in Albert Park, I note that the one person who probably knew best what to expect of what could happen was also best prepared.
The bigger picture seems to be missed when and while people focus on a much much smaller picture even though they may consider it as some kind of symbolic or watershed moment – we seem to have those more frequently nowadays, just like record-breaking weather events …
Let’s hope this is not the new ‘normal’ but the signs are not good and it serves to take heed of [the] warnings.
Really? Your [sic] not stupid, so try not act stupid. Violence was signalled as a likely scenario in the Court case. Make of this what you will but don’t put words in other people’s mouths.
I'm pretty sure that the argument was that KJK was going to say some things and then poof (because supposed hate speech has magic powers) violence would manifest against members of the community. Now I think that's pretty ridiculous, obviously, but your talking about an argument made by someone asking she not be allowed into the country, to protect a community he's advocating for.
I really don't think he was making a prediction of what actually happened where most of the violence and intimidation was metered out by the counter protest.
Robert's argument was that the violence at the protest could have been predicted. And, therefore (paraphrasing) the PP event should not have gone ahead and/or 'vulnerable people' (cf the elderly lady assaulted') should have known not to attend.
I don't agree:
a) That there were specific threats of violence from the TRA against PP supporters (indeed, your own link shows their fears were the other way around; and were in general, rather than being specifically related to the PP event).
b) That there was a heightened degree of unpredictable violence which was unable to be managed by an (inexplicably absent) standard police presence. We are not talking here about the level of protest which resulted in the parliamentary occupation. This was a standard rally/counter-rally situation. The police are well-used to dealing with the security aspects of them. The most important being to keep the two sides apart.
c) That the threat of violence should ever shut down a legal rally and/or protest. Where is our freedom of speech if we accept 'thugs veto'? That is the slippery slope that I see all too many on the left sliding down.
In a style that has become typical of this pseudo-debate, you are reading way too much in a simple straightforward comment. Consequently, and consistently, you make unjustified assumptions and extrapolations and use these to steer the ‘debate’. And of course, you “don’t agree”, that goes without saying – trying to understand where others are coming from and meeting them somewhere in the middle of the debate has been discarded to make way for polarising arguing by polarised people that fuels further polarisation. Anybody who has not (yet) grazed some skin in this ongoing ‘debate’ can see this clearly.
Thank you, Incognito, for your reasoned and balanced response. The incidence of people "re-phrasing" the words of another then responding in accordance with their own interpretation, is disturbing and has, I'll bet, caused many commenters to steer clear of the topic. There's a Gish gallop, gaslight atmosphere around this joint at the present time. Others, I believe, feel this also.
To keep the pushing and shoving in check. To be on the alert for breaches of the peace that would disrupt a group of people who were lawfully exercising their rights to gather in a park to listen and share issues do with women's rights and issues.
And identify more subtle threats; inflammatory speeches, the arrival of opposing factions, unexpected events. They also have to bear in mind the influence of their own presence on some crowds. Keeping a low profile can be a strategy to maintain order, in some cases.
*I have no view about the police in this particular instance
The transactivists you mean? They were the ones protesting.
Most of those I respect/read have been condemning the violence used by the transactivists. I do too. The Police, belatedly, are looking at the issue and they hopefully will charge the ones breaching laws.
So if transactivists say that violence will occur, are they saying that it would be the PP event attending demographic that will be causing it? because looking at the demographic in Hobart, they would have been pushing it. Some quite old, in years, looking people attending and some speakers the same. Some of the supporters who filled in for the lacking police behind the women, were at least my age.
So where was this violence going to come from?
If not the PP people then from the transactivists?
So the argument is that it is Ok to threaten the ability of women to gather & to speak because some parts of our society do not want them to? or was it a recognition that the transactivists may have lost control of those who might be attending?
So in either case women miss out because others cannot control their own violence.
Odd view
Again it seems wrapped up in the view that because 'we' cannot control ourselves you should not do this or that
That seems very like the excuses for rape or domestic violence that were responses we often heard until we started listening/thinking about the meaning of them & whether they were victim blaming.
Nothing but a series of assumptive questions and conditional hypotheticals leading to an odd conclusion followed by, of course, more assumptions that are inaccurate, at best.
Ok I have been amazed that PP non attendance has let women see, in plain sight, those who have women's rights and women's issues tightly bound to their hearts and minds.
Don't you think that left wing women would also like left wing men to get it? After all this time, after all our thoughts and trying to carefully explain to get the points across over several years .
In this community, or micro-cosmos, that we call TS, I’d like to see building bridges and not burning bridges. One would think this would be easier (!) between politically like-minded people but almost the opposite seemed to be happening. Sometimes it helps to take a step back, a deep breath or two, and a good look at what’s happening and what we’re doing and ask ourselves if this is what we want. If the answer is “No” then we need to change and become the change we want to see here and/or elsewhere (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefigurative_politics) – we should not and cannot wait for others to act first. The choice is simple, the task/journey is not …
How are we to build bridges when our own Govt has brought in legislation that will allow males to have access to women's safe spaces? And our own PM does not know what a women is? (Thank you Sean Plunket)
Where does the bridge come from?
To me, a user, and sometimes a frightened user in any kind of toilet especially that is open to the public ie std public toilet, the line for me is males should not be in the safe spaces I am using. I am less uneasy in female only spaces in areas such as dept stores or picture theatres. I am most reluctant to use any unisex labelled spaces after experiencing these in two workplaces.
I reflected tonight that come June I will be required to share the female toilets at the Embassy theatre with males. How do I know they are trans if they look, sound and dress like males?
I class males as anyone with a penis, or whatever word is acceptable to RG, if penis is too harsh.
This may be all good with males. It is not all good with females and I shudder to think what elderly women with walkers or younger ones with children will feel. We just should not do these things to people.
Aspirations and intentions (good or bad), for example, are like that bloody tree in the forest. There is no proof of them, ever. No brain surgeon ever opened a skull and exclaimed ‘WTF! I found an aspiration!’
I used that Utopia/Eutopia quote for the second part; I should have emphasised it. Please don’t read anything [else] into it, because that was not my intention at all. You have to trust me on this because I cannot prove it to you 😉
That said, it is a fairly interesting article for a random find.
@incognito. I was not going to launch into new wave Eutopia etc…..but interesting.
Thank you.
Ps Just had a thought though, although a post mortem won’t find an intention or aspiration if you consider that a human being exists by their word/work outside their body you might find an aspiration there.
Actually I am an embroiderer/quilter/textile artist and the aspirations/intentions are often called UFOs or unfinished objects.
That wasn’t where i actually started out to go and may have blown my argument about aspirations being found extrinsically.
Robert I apologise in advance as I'm not Shanreagh and you addressed your comment to Shanreagh. (Hmm it's almost as if I deliberately avoided using a pronoun there)
But…. I have to add my 2 cents worth. I would expect a big police presence at any public event especially where a protest is involved. This doesn't automatically assume violence.
Surely for society / the public square to function at least somewhat well there has to be an assumption of being able to hold a public event whether controversial or not without including violence to be expected as part of that assumption?
@ Robert Guyton The trouble is you seem to be thinking that it is the women who wanted to listen to PP who should have left or not gone.
Those who should have left, once they had seen that there was violence afoot are those I called the transactivists. There were people from this group who were assaulting women making their way through the crowd or trying to find PP.
I don't think anyone from the transactivists group could have been unaware that the plan by some was to disrupt PP. Not just shout from a polite distance etc. And so with not policing around the band rotunda and at the barricades they took this opportunity.
Another "seem to be thinking": "The trouble is you seem to be thinking that it is the women who wanted to listen to PP who should have left or not gone."
People involved in the event; supportive attendees, antagonistic attendees, curious bystanders, political figures, controversial figures, organisers, police, security personnel, could have made all manner of choices. It was up to them. Many decisions made were poor, imo. I'm betting many women (such as yourself, I seem to recall) will have mulled over attending and decided not to go. Many people from the general public who are not women will have chosen to stay home. I wish, for the sake of her wellbeing, the woman who was hurt, had stayed home and again, for the sake of the woman who was hurt, PP had chosen a different way to convey her message.
The reason I was wavering/opting not to go, ie have my rights to free speech curtailed was because of the threats of violence and the hunch that police were going to ineffectively stand back as they did in Hobart. (I wrote/spoke to SUFW immediately after the Hobart episode to see what the Police had been saying.
I was wavering all the while between why the heck should a bunch of people who bear me & other women ill will try to stop me and then acceptance that there were people there bearing us ill will, I could not run as fast as in my youth etc.
What was also swaying me was, as I said, somehow I was still getting tweets from those involved in the parliamentary protest, many were involved in banners, food preparation, organising of loud noise-makers. I had been looking at these tweets all the way through the PP (it helped dispel 'the happy just making a point' protestors myth)
Some of the anti women comments were bordering on unhinged
I had also witnessed the demonstration against the Springbok tour outside the Parliament Gates in Molesworth st. A work colleague & I (waiting for our buses) saw police, bottling the protestors up against a hard police line at the intersection of Hill & Molesworth sts while guiding them away from Lambton Quay. Civic Square where PP was to speak although a wonderful town square space was ideal for protestors /police to bottle us up into an increasingly smaller space.
By Saturday morning I had resolved to look at the PP events in Auckland and make my mind up after that.
Again victim blaming Robert.
I wish, for the sake of her wellbeing, the woman who was hurt, had stayed home and again, for the sake of the woman who was hurt, PP had chosen a different way to convey her message.
You are continuing to miss the point that women should be free to attend such events and make our own judgements about the message. Women should not have to confine themselves to homes because of the fear of people exercising the thug's veto.
You will recall that when the SUFW tried to hire a Manawatu venue to let women know about the No Debate issue that they were taken to court with a highly organised and funded group of people while SUFW figuratively scurried round organising cake stalls. SUFW won the court case. The group had tried to say SUFW were a hate group.
I wish, for the sake of her wellbeing, the woman who was hurt, had stayed home and again, for the sake of the woman who was hurt, PP had chosen a different way to convey her message.
"Victim blaming" must mean something very different to you than it does to me, Shanreagh.
I'm NOT saying or implying that the victim of the violence at the PP meeting brought it on herself, which seems to be your interpretation. I'm saying I wish she hadn't been hurt at all. It's not her fault she was hurt. You believe, I think, that she should be free to go wherever she pleases, safely. So do I, but wise counsel can help prevent trouble. You did plenty of research before deciding not to attend. I wonder what you might have advised that woman, had she asked you beforehand?
If, upon reading my explanation here, you still see victim blaming, I'll have to fold on the issue, as I respect your judgement and sincerity.
Victim blaming is not being able to make the free choice to be there or if having made the free choice then something bad happens.
I wear a skirt walking along a street to my car at night. Apparently I am 'silly, unwise' to have done this. That is victim blaming.
I think we can safely say we disagree on what victim blaming is.
I have found that people sometimes victim blame because they wrap up two concepts into one. Not sure I can fully explain but here goes.
1 in the scheme of things should I be able to walk to my car along a street, being obviously female at night?
of course
2 facing the reality that it is an unequal world for women out there could I take some mitigation measure that might affect my risk?
of course there is that possibility that some thing you might lessen your risk.
3 Should these measures I take derogate from the premise that I should be able to walk freely in a street to my car at night without taking them
Of course not.
Re the woman. I am a competent researcher, I am retired and have time to research. I found the levle of agression mainly through fortuitous unexplored Twitter follows that I amassed before and during the parliamentary protest. She may not have had that available to her.
In fact the thing that would have swayed me & maybe the woman was that the Police were not going to be there, as of old, policing against breaches of the peace.
If they had been told it was going to be 10 security guards protecting the speaker and nobody else. people may have thought, I may not be able to protect myself against thugs if there is no policing.
My view is that had the police advised they were not going to be there then many may have decided it was too dangerous to go.
It would also been very explicit in showing how policing may work for some in crowds but not for all.
If you 'should not go' in the words of those who say they know best and then you do go and do that scenario.
You do go, something bad happens to you, the 'should not goes' pile in and say 'oh but you should not have gone', that is victim blaming. That is not blaming the society we live in, the people who walk the street making others feel unsafe, the lack of policing etc. It totally blames the victim
She should have investigated, should have worked off a hunch that the police were going to be a no show should have…she should have, should have ……
That is victim blaming.
As I said before we do have a different concept of victim blaming.
You don't get to be my age to see how it is often used against women, though it is getting better.
So now we don't allow defence lawyers to bring evidence of a woman being sexually active in rape trials, so blamed as she brought it on herself, many look beyond the facile 'oh she shouldn't have been walking home or to the car or anywhere'
So accepting there was free will, the woman went to the event, she was beaten up. The victim blamers then say 'oh but she shouldn't have made a decision exercising her free will with the best knowledge she had because…..because…because. But she did go . 'Oh yes but she shouldn't have, why did she go? And on it goes.
PS Hopefully you are better able than PM Hipkins at identifying what a woman is. He’s made NZ a laughing stock around the world. In a week or so of continual laughter and OMG from overseas commentators. It is sad.
Robert your questions, to me, are often fair from clear, you often don't respond when asked a question. I venture to suggest that the issue would have died down to a simmer had you not come along with your again, to me, opaque questions.
As you are often a quirky, polished and competent poster on here many of us have persisted with your questions as we thought it was a way of sharing knowledge. I was mistaken. The knowledge we have passed on has not been used as a spring board. It has been ignored. Meanwhile we have been asked to grapple with victim blaming statements as if they were of equal merit to other comments.
The Socratic type method only works when the questioner exhibits good faith and has a knowledge of the topic.
Was discussing this with some friends and interesting things were said in regards to 'what is keeping men out of the fight for women's rights'.
My two female friends were adamant as to their opinion on this matter and I pretty much feel the same They firmly believe that it is because in particular young men have grown up in an environment that doesn't encourage such action in any way, shape or form.
Young men in the last couple of decades have been told to shut up when it comes to anything to do with women. They are being told that women don't need men to protect them and further don't need men full stop.
They are told that to risk rejection and humiliation in trying to chat up a girl they fancy is akin to sexual assault. They are taught that masculinity is toxic and that women in our society are oppressed by males. They observe that nobody cares about how dangerously low boy's educational achievement is becoming as long as the girls are doing well….
The list could go on and on but you get my point. I can easily see how a confused young man could be afraid to speak up for women because he may get told off for being sexist or that women don't need his help, etc
Personally I can remember three specific occasions where I have stepped in to prevent violence against women the first time was in my teens (years ago…) at a party where I tried to prevent a girl being kicked and stomped on by a bunch of thugs I ended up being bottled and got a bit of a kicking but she was ok and was really appreciative of my help (no not like that get your mind out of the gutter) on the second occasion I stopped a guy beating up his girlfriend outside our local and spent a night in the cells for my troubles (but no charges were laid and I was released the next morning)
On the third occasion the girl I was trying to help ended up jumping on me and started hitting me as well as her violent partner having a go at me ! I managed to escape fairly easily and left them to it.
I found out later that this is bizarrely quite a common thing where the woman being attacked ends up attacking the guy harming her boyfriend. I'm guessing there's probably underlying psychological and / ot logical reasons for this maybe?
Regardless, these bad experiences haven't deterred me and there have been a number of other episodes. I will still intercede if I see a man attacking or hitting a woman. That's how I was bought up and was the way my group of friends all thought as well. In fact I try and stop any violence from occurring nowadays whether the victim is a woman or a man. Funnily enough working on the door at a nightclub has also moulded this 'need' to become involved.
I must emphasise that my involvement has always been with the intent to stop the violence or at least to protect the victim and I've become pretty good at it over the years finding that the majority of the time, people can be talked down as long as they haven't had really excessive amounts of alcohol.
Anyway, I would assume also that fear will prevent many men from getting involved especially in modern times where men never learn nor are taught how to fight or how to project their physicality because 'toxic masculinity'. So when confronted with physical violence they are simply to fearful to do anything which is a perfectly normal reaction.
Anyway, just a few thoughts on the topic. Nothing too dinosaur like I hope!
'About Sall Grover: Sall Grover is the founder & CEO of Giggle, a female-only social networking app. Prior to the launch of the platform, trans activists “cancelled” it, labelling it “transphobic” because it is only for biological women. Sall advocates for womens sex based rights to female spaces & sport, and highlights the conflicts between gender ideology and reality.'
Neil "Music is woke. Not being racist is woke. Genders are woke. Sprouts are woke. Football is woke. TV is woke. Wood is woke. Chips are woke. Woke is woke. WOKE, WOKE and more WOKE…" Oliver?
The once respectable TV presenter who had a mid life crisis, re-emerging looking like a two dollar shop Charles Manson? That Neil Oliver?
This unhinged fucking idiot Neil Oliver? Jesus spare me.
More to the point, a 2022 list of jailed journalists throughout the world , compiled by The Committee to Protect Journalists, does not include the name of one Julian Assange
It will be the first time the Wikileaks founder has accepted a consular visit since November 2019, and the first time a high commissioner has met with the Australian behind bars.
"Shortly after I arrived here, his father approached me requesting that I visit Mr Assange," Mr Smith told SBS News.
"Through his lawyers, Mr Assange agreed to that visit and I welcome that very much.
"We have made, before my arrival, over 40 offers to provide consular assistance, none of which he has taken up. That's not said critically, that's just a fact, but I’m very pleased he has agreed to my request to see him."
Exactly, it wasn't as if the Australian government was ever doing their utmost to support Assange, or challenge the US decision to prosecute him .I'm not surprised Assange had no great confidence in the high commissioner.
not much discussion I can find about the muppet show with special guest leader chris luxon, whoops, I mean the national partys policy announcement about electrifying the economy. It's certainly good to see them actually release some policy, even it's a continuation of "what the other guy said". And I guess it's good to see National actually having something to try and address climate change, rather than just "continue with what the last guy did but do nothing else". One wonders if they will have the gonads to face down the likes of ground swell and tell them no more kicking the can down the road, or whether we will see the same national party of the past 20 years. Accept He Waka Eke Noa and get on with implementing it, accepting that it is only a start and much more still remains to be done
Expect a National Party of old if they have their way. What'll be new is a huge purge of Labour Party policy and legislation. Usually an incoming National Party is a continuation of Labour initiatives with a few minor changes as you have pointed out.
But it's not really about National. It's about ACT. ACT has promised it won't be business as usual for those pompous Tories if they are to enter into coalition. I believe them!
As for the ''muppet show'', that moniker belongs to Labour. They have pissed away a massive come back after Jacinda had the good sense to bugger off and let Chippy take over. A few weeks ago Labour had parity with National. Regardless of what the polls show, and barring Luxon being arrested for drug trafficking, Labour are gone at the next election. Robbo has basically said there won't be any more personal goodies in the upcoming budget for supporters.
My question is ''Why does National want to win the election? Have they a death wish? This country is in terminal decline and neither major party will be able to fix it. If I was Luxon l'd play golf and leave the hard stuff for Chippy. Unfortunately politics doesn't work that way. Everyone believes they have the answers
There was a guest on RNZ The Panel on Friday – Professor Ralph Simms – who pretty much indicated most of the ideas in Nationals new policy especially re consents are already in process. So as per nothing new, mostly hot air.
Here's an interesting local military technology that even NZ can afford – a good way to beat the entry costs of bringing our military up to speed with evolving drone warfare – Ozzie built cardboard drones.
The average lifespan of a reconnaissance drone in the Ukraine is apparently four sorties, so these cardboard drones – delivered in their hundreds in flat packs – make perfect sense. And of course, loitering munitions (AKA kamikaze drones) go on one way missions.
I have followed this astonishing rebuild right form the outset about five years ago. What the team have done is a real insight into how our forefathers tackled work like this; how challenging it was and how smart and tough they were in dealing with the limitations of the materials they had to hand.
While the prank is obvious in hindsight, they managed to lead many people deep into the hoax before the penny dropped. If they were like me they were sus that something wasn't right – but it was so well executed I have to say I was taken in.
At least up to the point where the chainsaw came out.
As for the calking – oakum was an option, but apparently cotton suits this purpose better. I’m not sure why. You should have seen them doing the hull – that was way more massive.
'She said: “Just because you lop off your d**k and then wear a dress doesn't make you a ******* woman. I’ve asked my doctor to give me long ears and liver spots and I’m going to wear a brown coat but that won’t turn me into a ******* cocker spaniel.\
Many of the younger ones troubled by concerns over how they present to the world may not be adequately recognised or cared for under our current health or mental health initiatives. At this age group (teens) there is an almost over whelming peer preference for receiving information.
What really worries me though is the pre teens, pre puberty where the sole access to information may be through Mum or Dad who might be concerned about their tomboy daughter or gentle souled arty boy. These are ghastly stereotypes….I can hardly bear to think that people would still be concerned by them.
I have not read very much but there are concerns about the competency of some of the gate-keeping and consent-obtaining practices in organisations running transition clinics.
As far as the other end is concerned Autogynephilia*, this has a later onset, apparently. Many of these paraphilias are non threatening to others. This one though to me has the potential to be a bit more than bothersome in the current climate when perhaps the apogee is to dress plus try to use female spaces…..much to the concern of the women there who can mostly usually tell that there is male present. Women have great concerns about any male being in these spaces.
Perhaps those who push the boundaries (being a nuisance or sexually misbehaving) there may need psychiatric treatment.
The point though is most women do not want all these experiments going on in their safe spaces, we don't need things to actually go wrong before we recognise that they are wrong.
*is defined as a male's propensity to be sexually aroused by the thought of himself as a female. It is the paraphilia that is theorized to underlie transvestism and some forms of male-to-female (MtF) transsexualism.
Really sad (well at least sad to me) story here – which may illustrate the pressures teens are under.
I have a friend who has a 15-year-old daughter. Lovely kid. A bit quirky. Some neurodiversity.
Badly bullied at school (difference is targeted like sharks after blood) – mostly by girls. [The unwillingness of schools to deal with bullying effectively has a heck of a lot to do with adolescent anxiety IMO]
I'd say probably lesbian – but struggling with emerging sexuality (as many of us have in our teen years). [And, being sexually attracted to the people who are bullying you, is a deeply confusing experience]
Highly supportive socially left-wing family.
No support from the state system in or out of school. Bullying not dealt with. No mental health support. No counselling. Zip.
Comes 'out' as transgender. New gender, new name, new identity. Suddenly, support is coming out of the woodwork! Bullying at school is firmly stamped on. Counselling is offered. Mental health is supported.
Now, I'm not suggesting she's lying. But for a kid who is confused and experimenting with sexuality – transgender has offered a heck of a lot more social validation and psychological support, than lesbianism did.
Maybe it depends where you are and how panicked the school is.
I have family working in this bullying/sexual preference/trans-gender space and frankly they have zero interest in differentiating between the differences or steering anyone in any direction.
They just help try and resolve the bullying and make the place safe for the student or employee.
Some schools and workplaces have no gay people at their school or workplace and therefore require no help – they are pretty quick to ask for help if someone is trans-gender – that is too difficult for them to cope with. It may not be that help wasn't available previously it may be that the school didn't see an issue (and I don't see why students should have to state their sexual preference to get help for bullying anyway – it isn't any of the schools damn business) but now it is panic britches.
In this case, the only thing that changed about the student and their needs, was the transgender element.
The student and family had been begging the school for help with the bullying issue for at least 2 years. No action. When he becomes transgender, it's suddenly a priority for the school to deal with…..
Perhaps we're talking past each other – but the help wasn't available to her previously. Despite the desperate attempts of her parents.
It might have been in theory, but in practice, …. zip.
But now, he has:
Bullying being addressed in school.
Mental health appointments 'magically' becoming available through the public health system (and I *know* how much pressure those staff are under, and what the wait lists are like)
“• Kelly-Jay Keen has fulminated against school-girls wearing burkas as “Not British”
• She has tried to whip up Islamophobia in Bradford, where fascism is rife.
• She has publicly praised Tommy Robinson, clearly an English fascist.
• And most recently when open fascists have supported her, Kelly-Jay Keen has refused to reject that support, for example at her Melbourne event.”
Curious claims, if true.
"The argument for transgender women threatening women’s rights is difficult to comprehend. It appears to rest on threatening biological women in their space in public toilets. Now as a cis male (I don’t like that term) I’m unfamiliar with women’s toilets. However, I assume that they are the same as male toilets minus a urinal.
That is, one enters, goes into a small cubicle, does one’s business, comes out, washes ones hands (hopefully) and then departs. The common toilet space is not designed to want users to stay. There is no market for a barista to be inside selling coffee. Unless I’m missing something, I’m struggling to see how these could be spaces providing opportunities for violation.
While this logic appears absurd, the underlying premise is horrible. That is, the dishonest, unsubstantiated and bigoted accusation that trans women are inherently aggressive. Hasn’t that been said about others before!"
Remember, under self-ID law, trans-women need to simply declare they are women. This has thrown the door wide open to sexual predators (that is men who like to sexually assault women and girls) – to camouflage themselves as 'trans-women' in order to do so in spaces which used to be women only.
There is case, after case, after case, in jurisdictions which have enacted the self-ID law.
That quote is a really good reason for why men need to listen to women more, and in this case, gender critical women.
Women are not men minus something. I know he didn't say that, but it was close. Women's toilets aren't the same as men's minus urinals. We have different bodies and different social experiences. That's the whole frigging point.
A non-comprehensive list of things that women do in toilets which mean we require female only spaces.
the usual peeing and pooing.
managing menstruation: changing tampons or pads, cleaning a menstrual cup, washing clothing with blood on it, resting, waiting out pain, vomiting.
miscarrying babies (yes, there's been whole twitter conversations about this where women have shared that the place they ended up having their miscarriage was a public toilet and how important it as to be in a female space).
changing clothing.
talking with other women.
the energy of male free space.
I get that many men won't understand why any of that matters, but support for women shouldn't be dependent upon that. We have a right to our own culture, spaces and rights simply because we exist.
There are most definitely safety issues. From males, be they men or TW. Self ID means that any man can say they are a woman at any time and this is to be accepted and supported. There's no evidence to suggest that TIMs don't have the same patterns of male violence that other men do. No-one is saying that TW are inherently violent, any more than we are saying that men are inherently violence. Women cannot predict in advance which males will be violent or intrusive, hence we have female only spaces.
There's a whole genre of porn based on women's toilets. There's an increase in the UK in men filming women in women's toilets and changing rooms. Teen girls are being harassed in gender neutral spaces. TIMs are masturbating in women's spaces and posting this online
Waiting with the door open, talking while a littlie goes wees or poos complete with the encouraging sounds we make or talk while said child goes to the toilet. On completion checking child, wiping child, arranging child's clothes, holding child, and semi closing the door while you yourself may go to the loo.
Same with elderly women, they may have a walker, a prolapse, continence issues, they may be in a rush.
So while they may go in a toilet with the door shut, often you are there outside, especially if continence pads or pants need changing. So helping them with these, helping to arrange clothes, may be outside of the confines of the cubicle.
So if someone has a walker it can be awkward, my mother felt she did not want to go to the disabled toilet as she felt these needed to be kept free for those with a real need while we/she managed with grace, chat (with other women) etc in the regular women's toilets.
Some women's toilets have the baby change table there. Some mothers do not want adult males there because of perving or surreptitious photographing of their babies. Some more spacious toilets/restrooms may have a separated lounge area (some department stores have these) where women may like to use the quiet space to breastfeed a baby. Again not an area they want males in.
The whole area of female grooming. updating makeup. some I have seen doing a complete makeup and clothes change after work ready to go out. Right down to day time makeup removal, cleansing etc & then new makeup together with tweezers and eyelash curlers. Sometimes the clothes are changed out in the open ie not in a cubicle if these are crowded, women help others do up zips etc.
In my more regular socialising days I have been a guard to an unknown woman who had rushed to the loo to get away from a man. She described him and I scouted around outside to make sure he had gone before leaving with her to go back to the bar.
I have been part of a group helping an unknown woman who had either had a drink spiked with vodka or drugs. She made a rush for the toilets. Women are can be at their most vulnerable to assaults when this happens to them. Several of us stayed with her, calmed her while others alerted the female bar staff. some stayed with her until she was past the worst of her drugged state.
A female flatmate was assaulted in a public toilet, beaten by a man who was in there before she could get her wits about her and run away. Then, as it was before the days of assigning a victim support person she was called on at some excruciatingly early hour the next day by Policemen wanting to take her back to the place before she was properly dressed. She had to put a duffle coat on over her pyjamas. She knew he was not supposed to be there but now male looking, male clothes who knows.
My solution is not to stop trans people using toilets but to look at the design of toilets so separate spaces are available. M.F, for people with a disability, unisex perhaps.
And another. Walking into a woman's toilet in a dept store.. A woman in her under clothes while her two friends flapped her outer clothes/their coats to try and cool her being in the the throes of a hot flush.
As we knew this was a female only space we were able to help her preserve her dignity while recognising her distress. Lots of caring murmurs and a few wry comments.
Would this happen in a mixed sex toilet where adult males went? I don't think so.
Enforcing this ability for males to go to female toilets shrinks our female world immeasurably.
Shanreagh, may I ask if you've listened to Kim Hill's interview of PP and what you made of PP's claims that billionaires are, through their involvement with the trans movement, attempting to destroy the fabric of society, or words to that effect?
You're deflecting. The quote you posted wasn't about PP, it was about the profoundly ignorant claim that men in women's toilets were not a threat to biological women.
Has someone looked into the possibility of Roberts account being hacked? He seems uncharacteristically troll like for several days now. Maybe someone guessed his email and started posting in his persona?
I'll look into it now. He's just not unreservedly supporting the transexclusioryfeministradicalTSwomen the way he should! He's so opaque and troll-like!
Just want to add another woman's voice to this issue.
I am a cis-gendered woman, who has used women's bathrooms her entire life. The idea that trans women pose a real risk to other women in bathrooms is fantasy.
"It appears, just as with the homophobia and racism that dictated who could access public spaces in the 20th century, that we are seeing a return to discrimination and control of public spaces dictated by fear that has its origins in prejudice and ignorance. That trans people’s access to their public spaces, and to use the bathroom, is up for ‘debate’ is a regressive step."
Shanreagh and Weka – do you see any similarity between the reasons you give for why trans women should not be allowed in women's bathrooms, and those given in the 20th century for why women of colour should not share the same bathroom as white women?
"This is not some abstract issue, it is a matter of immediate public safety for transgender people. All human beings need to be able to access public bathrooms, and those bathrooms need to be places of safety and security. Trans people by every measure are at the greatest risk of violence when made to use the wrong bathroom, and are the only group society considers it acceptable to deny the use of these public spaces at all."
Probably some of the females present can better comment than me. I don't think the issue is trans women per say. Its the change in societal convention to self id. There are unfortunately a significant number of males who will take advantage of self id to violate previously female only spaces. I wouldn't say they are likely actually transgender but if the standard is self id then who is to say.
There is not really a solution to this. Either you have some more preventative rules about how such people change how they are treated (like seeking permission from an employer to now use other bathrooms in a work place, which is how this presently works). Or if you go with self id then you need to accept that the transgender category includes all the male bad faith actors by construction.
""It appears, just as with the homophobia and racism that dictated who could access public spaces in the 20th century, that we are seeing a return to discrimination and control of public spaces dictated by fear that has its origins in prejudice and ignorance. That trans people’s access to their public spaces, and to use the bathroom, is up for ‘debate’ is a regressive step.""
Provision for women's single-sex spaces was not because of perceived differences in race, or sexual orientation. The discrimination applied to both race and sexual orientation was due to prejudice, not supported by data.
Single-sex provisions are because there are material, practical, privacy, dignity, fairness and safety reasons that returns value to all for such categories.
Safety is only one factor for the provision of single-sex spaces but since it is the one you focus on, let's address it:
1. Safeguarding is based on risk assessment statistics. That evidence provides the criteria for the best broad stroke categories that will significantly reduce the likelihood of harm for all users. In cases where users are in various states of undress or vulnerable, the provision category that provides the best outcomes is that of sex.
2. Therefore, the continuation of the benefit is reliant on maintaining single-sex spaces.
3. A compelling argument supported by robust evidence is required before single-sex provisions should be relinquished.
4. What kind of evidence should be part of the discussion?
a. Are men who identify as women included in current safeguarding statistics? (Yes.)
b. Is there evidence that men who identify as women pose a significantly lower risk than any other man? (No, statistically they hold the same risk factor. In fact, in terms of convictions, their risk for sexual offences is higher than men without gender identities)
c. Are they are higher degrees of risk if they continue to use the single-sex provision that they belong to? (There has never been any evidence put forward that this is the case, it is often an assumption that other men are unable to cope with a non-conforming male.)
d. If they are at higher degree or risk, is it higher than other vulnerable males? (ie. unaccompanied children, males with mobility issues, males impaired by substance abuse, homeless males, males with mental incapacity etc. I can think of many men who are vulnerable in ways that Alex Drummond from Stonewall is not, and they still respect the boundaries of single-sex provision)
e. That vulnerability – when it is finally evidenced and defined – still must be of such statistical significance that it outweighs the benefits (in terms of safeguarding only) of division by sex.
People within the transgender community are being treated equally to everyone else when they are expected to respect the social contract and boundaries of single-sex provisions.
They are not excluded in any way, because they are included with all others of their sex, in those single-sex provisions.
"All human beings need to be able to access public bathrooms, and those bathrooms need to be places of safety and security. "
Yes. As mentioned provision divided by sex, delivers that to a high degree.
Trans people by every measure are at the greatest risk of violence when made to use the wrong bathroom,
This is rhetoric unless it is supported by robust and impartially collected statistical data. Have you got any?
and are the only group society considers it acceptable to deny the use of these public spaces at all"
Not true. They can use the public space of their sex category without impediment.
New reporting highlights how Brooke van Velden refuses to meet with the CTU but is happy to meet with fringe Australian-based unions. Van Velden is pursuing reckless changes to undermine the personal grievance system against the advice of her own officials. Engineering New Zealand are saying that hundreds of engineers ...
The NZCTU strongly supports the Employment Relations (Employee Remuneration Disclosure) Amendment Bill. This Bill represents a positive step towards addressing serious issues around unlawful disparities in pay by protecting workers’ rights to discuss their pay and conditions. This Bill also provides welcome support for helping tackle the prevalent gender and ...
Years of hard work finally paid off last week as the country’s biggest and most important transport project, the City Rail Link reached a major milestone with the first test train making its way slowly though the tunnels for the first time. This is a fantastic achievement and it is ...
Engineers are pleading for the Government to free up funds to restart stalled projects. File Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāLong stories short, the top six things in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Monday, February 17 are:Engineering New Zealand CEO Richard Templer said yesterday hundreds of ...
It’s one of New Zealand’s great sustaining myths: the spirit of ANZAC, our mates across the ditch, the spirit of Earl’s Court, Antipodeans united against the world. It is also a myth; it is not reality. That much was clear from a series of speakers, including a former Australian Prime ...
Many people have been unsatisfied for years that things have not improved for them, some as individuals, many more however because their families are clearly putting in more work, for less money – and certainly far less purchase on society. This general discontent has grown exponentially since the GFC. ...
A listing of 34 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, February 9, 2025 thru Sat, February 15, 2025. This week's roundup is again published soleley by category. We are still interested in feedback to hone the categorization, so if ...
The Salvation Army’s State of the Nation report shows worsening food poverty and housing shortages mean more than 400,000 people now need welfare support, the highest level since the 1990s. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāLong stories short, the top six things in our political economy around housing, climate and ...
You're just too too obscure for meOh you don't really get through to meAnd there's no need for you to talk that wayIs there any less pessimistic things to say?Songwriters: Graeme DownesToday, I thought we’d take a look at some of the most cringe-inducing moments from last week, but don’t ...
Please note: I’ve delayed my “What can we do?” article for this video.The video above shows Destiny Church members assaulting staff and librarians as they pushed through to a room of terrified parents and young children.It was posted to social media last night.But if you read Sinead Boucher’s Stuff, you ...
Skeptical Science is partnering with Gigafact to produce fact briefs — bite-sized fact checks of trending claims. You can submit claims you think need checking via the tipline. Is sea level rise exaggerated? Sea levels are rising at an accelerating rate, not stagnating or decreasing. Warming global temperatures cause land ice ...
Here is a scenario, but first a historical parallel. Hitler and the Nazis could well have accomplished everything that they wanted to do within German borders, including exterminating Jews, so long as they confined their ambitious to Germany itself. After all, the world pretty much sat and watched as the ...
I’ve spent the last couple of days in Hamilton covering Waikato University’s annual NZ Economics Forum, where (arguably) three of the most influential people in our political economy right now laid out their thinking in major speeches about the size and role of Government, their views on for spending, tax ...
Simeon Brown’s Ideology BentSimeon Brown once told Kiwis he tries to represent his deep sense of faith by interacting “with integrity”.“It’s important that there’s Christians in Parliament…and from my perspective, it’s great to be a Christian in Parliament and to bring that perspective to [laws, conversations and policies].”And with ...
Severe geological and financial earthquakes are inevitable. We just don’t know how soon and how they will play out. Are we putting the right effort into preparing for them?Every decade or so the international economy has a major financial crisis. We cannot predict exactly when or exactly how it will ...
Questions1. How did Old Mate Grabaseat describe his soon-to-be-Deputy-PM’s letter to police advocating for Philip Polkinghorne?a.Ill-advisedb.A perfect letterc.A letter that will live in infamyd.He had me at hello2. What did Seymour say in response?a.What’s ill-advised is commenting when you don’t know all the facts and ...
NZCTU Te Kauae Kaimahi President Richard Wagstaff has called on OJI Fibre Solutions to work with the government, unions, and the community before closing the Kinleith Paper Mill. “OJI has today announced 230 job losses in what will be a devastating blow for the community. OJI needs to work with ...
NZCTU Te Kauae Kaimahi President Richard Wagstaff is sounding the alarm about the latest attack on workers from Minister of Workplace Relations and Safety Brooke van Velden, who is ignoring her own officials to pursue reckless changes that would completely undermine the personal grievance system. “Brooke van Velden’s changes will ...
Hi,When I started writing Webworm in 2020, I wrote a lot about the conspiracy theories that were suddenly invading our Twitter timelines and Facebook feeds. Four years ago a reader, John, left this feedback under one of my essays:It’s a never ending labyrinth of lunacy which, as you have pointed ...
And if you said this life ain't good enoughI would give my world to lift you upI could change my life to better suit your moodBecause you're so smoothAnd it's just like the ocean under the moonOh, it's the same as the emotion that I get from youYou got the ...
Aotearoa remains the minority’s birthright, New Zealand the majority’s possession. WAITANGI DAY commentary see-saws manically between the warmly positive and the coldly negative. Many New Zealanders consider this a good thing. They point to the unexamined patriotism of July Fourth and Bastille Day celebrations, and applaud the fact that the ...
The podcast above of the weekly ‘Hoon’ webinar for paying subscribers on Thursday night features co-hosts & talking about the week’s news with regular and special guests, including: and on the week in geopolitics, including the latest from Donald Trump’s administration over Gaza and Ukraine; on the ...
Up until now, the prevailing coalition view of public servants was that there were simply too many of them. But yesterday the new Public Service Commissioner, handpicked by the Luxon Government, said it was not so much numbers but what they did and the value they produced that mattered. Sir ...
In a moment we explore the question: What is Andrew Bayly wanting to tell ACC, and will it involve enjoying a small wine tasting and then telling someone to fuck off? But first, for context, a broader one: What do we look for in a government?Imagine for a moment, you ...
As expected, Donald Trump just threw Ukraine under the bus, demanding that it accept Russia's illegal theft of land, while ruling out any future membership of NATO. Its a colossal betrayal, which effectively legitimises Russia's invasion, while laying the groundwork for the next one. But Trump is apparently fine with ...
This is a guest post by George Weeks, reviewing a book called ‘How to Fly a Horse’ by Kevin AshtonBook review: ‘How to Fly a Horse’ by Kevin Ashton (2015) – and what it means for Auckland. The title of this article might unnerve any Greater Auckland ...
This story was originally published by Capital & Main and is part of Covering Climate Now, a global journalism collaboration strengthening coverage of the climate story. Within just a week, the sheer devastation of the Los Angeles wildfires has pushed to the fore fundamental questions about the impact of the climate crisis that have been ...
In this world, it's just usYou know it's not the same as it wasSongwriters: Harry Edward Styles / Thomas Edward Percy Hull / Tyler Sam JohnsonYesterday, I received a lovely message from Caty, a reader of Nick’s Kōrero, that got me thinking. So I thought I’d share it with you, ...
In past times a person was considered “unserious” or “not a serious” person if they failed to grasp, behave and speak according to the solemnity of the context in which they were located. For example a serious person does not audibly pass gas at Church, or yell “gun” at a ...
Long stories short, the top six things in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Thursday, February 13 are:The coalition Government’s early 2024 ‘fiscal emergency’ freeze on funding, planning and building houses, schools, local roads and hospitals helped extend and deepen the economic and jobs recession through calendar ...
For obvious reasons, people feel uneasy when the right to be a citizen is sold off to wealthy foreigners. Even selling the right to residency seems a bit dubious, when so many migrants who are not millionaires get turned away or are made to jump through innumerable hoops – simply ...
A new season of White Lotus is nearly upon us: more murder mystery, more sumptuous surroundings, more rich people behaving badly.Once more we get to identify with the experience of the pampered tourist or perhaps the poorly paid help; there's something in White Lotus for all New Zealanders.And unlike the ...
In 2016, Aotearoa shockingly plunged to fourth place in the Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index. Nine years later, and we're back there again: New Zealand has seen a further slip in its global ranking in the latest Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI). [...] In the latest CPI New Zealand's score ...
1. You’ve started ranking your politicians on how much they respect the rule of law2. You’ve stopped paying attention to those news publications3. You’ve developed a sudden interest in a particular period of history4. More and more people are sounding like your racist, conspiracist uncle.5. Someone just pulled a Nazi ...
Transforming New Zealand: Brian EastonBrian Easton will discuss the above topic at 2/57 Willis Street, Wellington at 5:30pm on Tuesday 26 February at 2/57 Willis Street, WellingtonThe sub-title to the above is "Why is the Left failing?" Brian Easton's analysis is based on his view that while the ...
Salvation Army’s State of the Nation 2025 report highlights falling living standards, the highest unemployment rates since the 1990s and half of all Pacific children going without food. There are reports of hundreds if not thousands of people are applying for the same jobs in the wake of last year’s ...
Mountain Tui is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Correction: On the article The Condundrum of David Seymour, Luke Malpass conducted joint reviews with Bryce Wilkinson, the architect of the Regulatory Standards Bill - not Bryce Edwards. The article ...
Tomorrow the council’s Transport, Resilience and Infrastructure Committee meet and agenda has a few interesting papers. Council’s Letter of Expectation to Auckland Transport Every year the council provide a Letter of Expectation to Auckland Transport which is part of the process for informing AT of the council’s priorities and ...
All around in my home townThey're trying to track me down, yeahThey say they want to bring me in guiltyFor the killing of a deputyFor the life of a deputySongwriter: Robert Nesta Marley.Support Nick’s Kōrero today with a 20% discount on a paid subscription to receive all my newsletters directly ...
Hi,I think all of us have probably experienced the power of music — that strange, transformative thing that gets under our skin and helps us experience this whole life thing with some kind of sanity.Listening and experiencing music has always been such a huge part of my life, and has ...
Business frustration over the stalled economy is growing, and only 34% of voters are confidentNicola Willis can deliver. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāLong stories short, the top six things in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Wednesday, February 12 are:Business frustration is growing about a ...
I have now lived long enough to see a cabinet minister go both barrels on their Prime Minister and not get sacked.It used to be that the PM would have a drawer full of resignations signed by ministers on the day of their appointment, ready for such an occasion. But ...
This session will feature Simon McCallum, Senior Lecturer in Engineering and Computer Science (VUW) and recent Labour Party candidate in the Southland Electorate talking about some of the issues around AI and how this should inform Labour Party policy. Simon is an excellent speaker with a comprehensive command of AI ...
The proposed Waimate garbage incinerator is dead: The company behind a highly-controversial proposal to build a waste-to-energy plant in the Waimate District no longer has the land. [...] However, SIRRL director Paul Taylor said the sales and purchase agreement to purchase land from Murphy Farms, near Glenavy, lapsed at ...
The US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act has been a vital tool in combatting international corruption. It forbids US companies and citizens from bribing foreign public officials anywhere in the world. And its actually enforced: some of the world's biggest companies - Siemens, Hewlett Packard, and Bristol Myers Squibb - have ...
December 2024 photo - with UK Tory Boris Johnson (Source: Facebook)Those PollsFor hours, political poll results have resounded across political hallways and commentary.According to the 1News Verizon poll, 50% of the country believe we are heading in the “wrong direction”, while 39% believe we are “on the right track”.The left ...
A Tai Rāwhiti mill that ran for 30 years before it was shut down in late 2023 is set to re-open in the coming months, which will eventually see nearly 300 new jobs in the region. A new report from Massey University shows that pensioners are struggling with rising costs. ...
As support continues to fall, Luxon also now faces his biggest internal ructions within the coalition since the election, with David Seymour reacting badly to being criticised by the PM. File photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāLong stories short, the top six things in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate ...
Not since 1988 when Richard Prebble openly criticised David Lange have we seen such a challenge to a Prime Minister as that of David Seymour to Christopher Luxon last night. Prebble suggested Lange had mental health issues during a TV interview and was almost immediately fired. Seymour hasn’t gone quite ...
Three weeks in, and the 24/7 news cycle is not helping anyone feel calm and informed about the second Trump presidency. One day, the US is threatening 25% trade tariffs on its friends and neighbours. The reasons offered by the White House are absurd, such as stopping fentanyl coming in ...
This video includes personal musings and conclusions of the creator climate scientist Dr. Adam Levy. It is presented to our readers as an informed perspective. Please see video description for references (if any). Wherever you look, you'll hear headlines claiming we've passed 1.5 degrees of global warming. And while 2024 saw ...
Photo by Heather M. Edwards on UnsplashHere’s the key news, commentary, reports and debate around Aotearoa’s politics and economy in the week to Feb 10 below. That’s ahead of live chats on the Substack App and The Kākā’s front page on Substack at 5pm with: on his column in The ...
Is there anyone in the world the National Party loves more than a campaign donor? Why yes, there is! They will always have the warmest hello and would you like to slip into something more comfortable for that great god of our age, the High Net Worth Individual.The words the ...
Waste and fraud certainly exist in foreign aid programs, but rightwing celebration of USAID’s dismantling shows profound ignorance of the value of soft power (as opposed to hard power) in projecting US influence and interests abroad by non-military/coercive means (think of “hearts and minds,” “hugs, not bullets,” “honey versus vinegar,” ...
Health New Zealand is proposing to cut almost half of its data and digital positions – more than 1000 of them. The PSA has called on the Privacy Commissioner to urgently investigate the cuts due to the potential for serious consequences for patients. NZNO is calling for an urgent increase ...
We may see a few more luxury cars on Queen Street, but a loosening of rules to entice rich foreigners to invest more here is unlikely to “turbocharge our economic growth”. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāLong stories short, the top six things in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate ...
Let us not dance daintily around the elephant in the room. Our politicians who serve us in the present are not honest, certainly not as honest as they should be, and while the right are taking out most of the trophies for warping narratives and literally redefining “facts”, the kiwi ...
A few weeks ago I took a look at public transport ridership in 2024. In today’s post I’m going to be looking a bit deeper at bus ridership. Buses make up the vast majority of ridership in Auckland with 70 million boardings last year out of a total of 89.4 ...
Oh, you know I did itIt's over and I feel fineNothing you could say is gonna change my mindWaited and I waited the longest nightNothing like the taste of sweet declineSongwriters: Chris Shiflett / David Eric Grohl / Nate Mendel / Taylor Hawkins.Hindsight is good, eh?The clarity when the pieces ...
Photo by Towfiqu barbhuiya on UnsplashHere’s what we’re watching in the week to February 16 and beyond in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty:Monday, February 10The Kākā’s weekly wrap-up of news about politics and the economy is due at midday, followed by webinar for paying subscribers in Substack’s ...
A listing of 23 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, February 2, 2025 thru Sat, February 8, 2025. This week's roundup is again published soleley by category. We are still interested in feedback to hone the categorization, so if ...
Today, I stumbled across a Twitter Meme: the ending of The Lord of the Rings as a Chess scenario: https://x.com/mellon_heads/status/1887983845917564991 It gets across the basic gist. Aragorn and Gandalf offering up ‘material’ at the Morannon allows Frodo and Samwise to catch Sauron unawares – fair enough. But there are a ...
Last week, Kieran McAnulty called out Chris Bishop and Nicola Willis for their claims that Kāinga Ora’s costs were too high.They had claimed Kāinga Ora’s cost were 12% higher than market i.e. private devlopersBut Kāinga Ora’s Chair had already explained why last year:"We're not building to sell, so we'll be ...
Stuff’s Political Editor Luke Malpass - A Fellow at New Zealand IniativeLast week I half-joked that Stuff / The Post’s Luke Malpass1 always sounded like he was auditioning for a job at the New Zealand Initiative.Mountain Tui is a reader-supported publication. For a limited time, subscriptions are 20% off. Thanks ...
At a funeral on Friday, there were A4-sized photos covering every wall of the Dil’s reception lounge. There must have been 200 of them, telling the story in the usual way of the video reel but also, by enlargement, making it more possible to linger and step in.Our friend Nicky ...
Skeptical Science is partnering with Gigafact to produce fact briefs — bite-sized fact checks of trending claims. This fact brief was written by Sue Bin Park from the Gigafact team in collaboration with members from our team. You can submit claims you think need checking via the tipline. Is methane the ...
The Government’s idea is that the private sector and Community Housing Providers will fund, build and operate new affordable housing to address our housing crisis. Meanwhile, the Government does not know where almost half of the 1,700 children who left emergency housing actually went. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāLong ...
Oh, home, let me come homeHome is wherever I'm with youOh, home, let me come homeHome is wherever I'm with youSongwriters: Alexander Ebert / Jade Allyson CastrinosMorena,I’m on a tight time frame this morning. In about an hour and a half, I’ll need to pack up and hit the road ...
This is a post about the Mountain Tui substack, and small tweaks - further to the poll and request post the other day. Please don’t read if you aren’t interested in my personal matters. Thank you all.After oohing-and-aahing about how to structure the Substack model since November, including obtaining ...
National’s cuts to disability support funding and freezing of new residential placements has resulted in significant mental health decline for intellectually disabled people. ...
The hundreds of jobs lost needlessly as a result of the Kinleith Mill paper production closure will have a devastating impact on the Tokoroa community - something that could have easily been avoided. ...
Today Te Pāti Māori MP for Te Tai Tokerau, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi, released her members bill that will see the return of tamariki and mokopuna Māori from state care back to te iwi Māori. This bill will establish an independent authority that asserts and protects the rights promised in He Whakaputanga ...
The Whangarei District Council being forced to fluoridate their local water supply is facing a despotic Soviet-era disgrace. This is not a matter of being pro-fluoride or anti-fluoride. It is a matter of what New Zealanders see and value as democracy in our country. Individual democratically elected Councillors are not ...
Nicola Willis’ latest supermarket announcement is painfully weak with no new ideas, no real plan, and no relief for Kiwis struggling with rising grocery costs. ...
Half of Pacific children sometimes going without food is just one of many heartbreaking lowlights in the Salvation Army’s annual State of the Nation report. ...
The Salvation Army’s State of the Nation report is a bleak indictment on the failure of Government to take steps to end poverty, with those on benefits, including their children, hit hardest. ...
New Zealand First has today introduced a Member’s Bill which would restore decision-making power to local communities regarding the fluoridation of drinking water. The ‘Fluoridation (Referendum) Legislation Bill’ seeks to repeal the Health (Fluoridation of Drinking Water) Amendment Act 2021 that granted centralised authority to the Direct General of Health ...
New Zealand First has introduced a Member’s Bill aimed at preventing banks from refusing their services to businesses because of the current “Environmental, Social, and Governance (ESG) Framework”. “This Bill ensures fairness and prevents ESG standards from perpetuating woke ideology in the banking sector being driven by unelected, globalist, climate ...
Erica Stanford has reached peak shortsightedness if today’s announcement is anything to go by, picking apart immigration settings piece by piece to the detriment of the New Zealand economy. ...
Our originating document, theTreaty of Waitangi, was signed on February 6, 1840. An agreement between Māori and the British Crown. Initially inked by Ngā Puhi in Waitangi, further signatures were added as it travelled south. The intention was to establish a colony with the cession of sovereignty to the Crown, ...
Te Whatu Ora Chief Executive Margie Apa leaving her job four months early is another symptom of this government’s failure to deliver healthcare for New Zealanders. ...
The Green Party is calling for the Prime Minister to show leadership and be unequivocal about Aotearoa New Zealand’s opposition to a proposal by the US President to remove Palestinians from Gaza. ...
The latest unemployment figures reveal that job losses are hitting Māori and Pacific people especially hard, with Māori unemployment reaching a staggering 9.7% for the December 2024 quarter and Pasifika unemployment reaching 10.5%. ...
Waitangi 2025: Waitangi Day must be community and not politically driven - Shane Jones Our originating document, theTreaty of Waitangi, was signed on February 6, 1840. An agreement between Māori and the British Crown. Initially inked by Ngā Puhi in Waitangi, further signatures were added as it travelled south. ...
Despite being confronted every day with people in genuine need being stopped from accessing emergency housing – National still won’t commit to building more public houses. ...
The Green Party says the Government is giving up on growing the country’s public housing stock, despite overwhelming evidence that we need more affordable houses to solve the housing crisis. ...
Before any thoughts of the New Year and what lies ahead could even be contemplated, New Zealand reeled with the tragedy of Senior Sergeant Lyn Fleming losing her life. For over 38 years she had faithfully served as a front-line Police officer. Working alongside her was Senior Sergeant Adam Ramsay ...
Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson will return to politics at Waitangi on Monday the 3rd of February where she will hold a stand up with fellow co-leader Chlöe Swarbrick. ...
Te Pāti Māori is appalled by the government's blatant mishandling of the school lunch programme. David Seymour’s ‘cost-saving’ measures have left tamariki across Aotearoa with unidentifiable meals, causing distress and outrage among parents and communities alike. “What’s the difference between providing inedible food, and providing no food at all?” Said ...
The Government is doubling down on outdated and volatile fossil fuels, showing how shortsighted and destructive their policies are for working New Zealanders. ...
Green Party MP Steve Abel this morning joined Coromandel locals in Waihi to condemn new mining plans announced by Shane Jones in the pit of the town’s Australian-owned Gold mine. ...
The Green Party is calling on the Government to strengthen its just-announced 2030-2035 Nationally Determined Contribution (NDC) under the Paris Agreement and address its woeful lack of commitment to climate security. ...
Today marks a historic moment for Taranaki iwi with the passing of the Te Pire Whakatupua mō Te Kāhui Tupua/Taranaki Maunga Collective Redress Bill in Parliament. "Today, we stand together as descendants of Taranaki, and our tūpuna, Taranaki Maunga, is now formally acknowledged by the law as a living tūpuna. ...
Labour is relieved to see Children’s Minister Karen Chhour has woken up to reality and reversed her government’s terrible decisions to cut funding from frontline service providers – temporarily. ...
It is the first week of David Seymour’s school lunch programme and already social media reports are circulating of revolting meals, late deliveries, and mislabelled packaging. ...
The Government’s commitment to get New Zealand’s roads back on track is delivering strong results, with around 98 per cent of potholes on state highways repaired within 24 hours of identification every month since targets were introduced, Transport Minister Chris Bishop says. “Increasing productivity to help rebuild our economy is ...
The former Cadbury factory will be the site of the Inpatient Building for the new Dunedin Hospital and Health Minister Simeon Brown says actions have been taken to get the cost overruns under control. “Today I am giving the people of Dunedin certainty that we will build the new Dunedin ...
From today, Plunket in Whāngarei will be offering childhood immunisations – the first of up to 27 sites nationwide, Health Minister Simeon Brown says. The investment of $1 million into the pilot, announced in October 2024, was made possible due to the Government’s record $16.68 billion investment in health. It ...
New Zealand’s strong commitment to the rights of disabled people has continued with the response to an important United Nations report, Disability Issues Minister Louise Upston has announced. Of the 63 concluding observations of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities (UNCRPD), 47 will be progressed ...
Resources Minister Shane Jones has launched New Zealand’s national Minerals Strategy and Critical Minerals List, documents that lay a strategic and enduring path for the mineral sector, with the aim of doubling exports to $3 billion by 2035. Mr Jones released the documents, which present the Coalition Government’s transformative vision ...
Firstly I want to thank OceanaGold for hosting our event today. Your operation at Waihi is impressive. I want to acknowledge local MP Scott Simpson, local government dignitaries, community stakeholders and all of you who have gathered here today. It’s a privilege to welcome you to the launch of the ...
Racing Minister, Winston Peters has announced the Government is preparing public consultation on GST policy proposals which would make the New Zealand racing industry more competitive. “The racing industry makes an important economic contribution. New Zealand thoroughbreds are in demand overseas as racehorses and for breeding. The domestic thoroughbred industry ...
Business confidence remains very high and shows the economy is on track to improve, Economic Growth Minister Nicola Willis says. “The latest ANZ Business Outlook survey, released yesterday, shows business confidence and expected own activity are ‘still both very high’.” The survey reports business confidence fell eight points to +54 ...
Enabling works have begun this week on an expanded radiology unit at Hawke’s Bay Fallen Soldiers’ Memorial Hospital which will double CT scanning capacity in Hawke’s Bay to ensure more locals can benefit from access to timely, quality healthcare, Health Minister Simeon Brown says. This investment of $29.3m in the ...
The Government has today announced New Zealand’s second international climate target under the Paris Agreement, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. New Zealand will reduce emissions by 51 to 55 per cent compared to 2005 levels, by 2035. “We have worked hard to set a target that is both ambitious ...
Nine years of negotiations between the Crown and iwi of Taranaki have concluded following Te Pire Whakatupua mō Te Kāhui Tupua/the Taranaki Maunga Collective Redress Bill passing its third reading in Parliament today, Treaty Negotiations Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “This Bill addresses the historical grievances endured by the eight iwi ...
As schools start back for 2025, there will be a relentless focus on teaching the basics brilliantly so all Kiwi kids grow up with the knowledge, skills and competencies needed to grow the New Zealand of the future, Education Minister Erica Stanford says. “A world-leading education system is a key ...
Housing Minister Chris Bishop and Associate Agriculture Minister Mark Patterson have welcomed Kāinga Ora’s decision to re-open its tender for carpets to allow wool carpet suppliers to bid. “In 2024 Kāinga Ora issued requests for tender (RFTs) seeking bids from suppliers to carpet their properties,” Mr Bishop says. “As part ...
Associate Education Minister David Seymour has today visited Otahuhu College where the new school lunch programme has served up healthy lunches to students in the first days of the school year. “As schools open in 2025, the programme will deliver nutritious meals to around 242,000 students, every school day. On ...
Minister for Children Karen Chhour has intervened in Oranga Tamariki’s review of social service provider contracts to ensure Barnardos can continue to deliver its 0800 What’s Up hotline. “When I found out about the potential impact to this service, I asked Oranga Tamariki for an explanation. Based on the information ...
A bill to make revenue collection on imported and exported goods fairer and more effective had its first reading in Parliament, Customs Minister Casey Costello said today. “The Customs (Levies and Other Matters) Amendment Bill modernises the way in which Customs can recover the costs of services that are needed ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says the Department of Internal Affairs [the Department] has achieved significant progress in completing applications for New Zealand citizenship. “December 2024 saw the Department complete 5,661 citizenship applications, the most for any month in 2024. This is a 54 per cent increase compared ...
Reversals to Labour’s blanket speed limit reductions begin tonight and will be in place by 1 July, says Minister of Transport Chris Bishop. “The previous government was obsessed with slowing New Zealanders down by imposing illogical and untargeted speed limit reductions on state highways and local roads. “National campaigned on ...
Finance Minister Nicola Willis has announced Budget 2025 – the Growth Budget - will be delivered on Thursday 22 May. “This year’s Budget will drive forward the Government’s plan to grow our economy to improve the incomes of New Zealanders now and in the years ahead. “Budget 2025 will build ...
For the Government, 2025 will bring a relentless focus on unleashing the growth we need to lift incomes, strengthen local businesses and create opportunity. Prime Minister Christopher Luxon today laid out the Government’s growth agenda in his Statement to Parliament. “Just over a year ago this Government was elected by ...
The Treaty Principles Bill submission hearings continue at Parliament today with a range of submitters expected including councils, iwi, community organisations and individuals. ...
It’s become of one of Christchurch’s most famous landmarks online, but why? Alex Casey steps through the portal of the brutalist Timezone. Ask anyone what Christchurch’s most iconic building is and you might expect to hear some of the dusty old classics like the Cathedral, or the Town Hall, or ...
New Zealand’s alignment with the White House is further underscored by its refusal to oppose Trump’s sanctions against the International Criminal Court (ICC). ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Amin Saikal, Emeritus Professor of Middle Eastern and Central Asian Studies, Australian National University The dismantling of the US Agency for International Development (USAID) is a serious blow to the soft power of the United States and disastrous for many poor countries ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Janet Hoek, Professor in Public Health, University of Otago Shutterstock/Aliaksandr Barouski New Zealand’s smokefree law was hailed around the world for creating a smokefree generation that would have lifelong protection from smoking’s harms. The smokefree generation would have ended sales of ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By George Disney, Research Fellow, Social Epidemiology, The University of Melbourne Edwin Tan/Getty Images When the National Disability Insurance Scheme (NDIS) was established in 2013, one of its driving aims was to make disability services and support systems fairer. However, our new ...
The resignation of the director general of health is the latest departure in what Labour is calling a ‘purge’ of health leadership. Another day, another health resignation It’s a dangerous time to be a top health executive. On Friday, Dr Diana Sarfati announced her resignation as director general of health ...
Labour and the Greens say the government should focus spending on tourism infrastructure like tracks, toilets and protection of nature instead of more advertising. ...
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Another thoughtful piece again from a NZ commentator, Dane Giraud.
https://plainsight.nz/what-is-keeping-men-out-of-the-fight-for-womens-rights/
And from Laura Lopez in the same publication.
https://plainsight.nz/women-deserve-the-right-to-speak/
I linked to a piece from Damian Grant in OM of 1/4.
Comment:Open mike 01/04/2023
And there is this one also. We need to listen to the voices of young people who have been failed by our systems.
https://plainsight.nz/young-new-zealanders-are-being-rushed-into-medical-gender-transition/?fbclid=IwAR3up8c8YYk6Vcmy5591PW-9YSKa8ymlOYE4eBeq6V_yBoo7cK_miLc2xVA
If only it was as easy to get HRT if peri or menopausal..
Laura López’s research is comprehensive, and her articles about the evidence for – and impacts of – affirming healthcare are worth the read.
Not least because they are NZ specific.
Thanks for those links.
I had read the second, but not Dane Giraud's and it was a good article, clearly identifying the important issues, and summing up well:
I don't believe the violence was "earned", but I believe it was easily foreseen.
No one, it seems, is pointing the finger at PP for the fractured skull, in the way fingers were pointed at the forestry industry for the slash-destruction.
Are you pointing the finger at PP for the fractured skull?
Simon Anderson is still retrieving and posting videos from his 360 recording:
https://twitter.com/SimonRAnderson1/status/1642275035808415745?s=20
Do you think I am?
Was Ces Blazey in part responsible for the physical harm experienced by protesters of the Springbok tour?
"Do you think I am?"
Don't know, that's why I asked.
Anything else?
NZ Govt was the one primarily at fault for allowing sport to dictate politics. We should have boycotted South Africa including with sport. Ces Blazey was the figurehead of the NZRFU that actually should have known better. NZ at large was at fault because of the notion that sport overrode good sense.
NZ Govt is primarily at fault here too for introducing this divisive Self ID/No Debate duo. Not allowing women to be heard, enacting possibly threatening to women measures.
‘That internal monologue I mentioned, convincing you that the abuse you see is somehow earned – that women wanting to voice concerns about their rights are asking for violence and intimidation – Well, you can start by canceling that transmission.”
Dane Giraud (link above)
Unanimously passed
Yes, because both self ID and the "Gay Conversion" legislation was draped in so many rainbow flags that everybody overlooked the additions of "gender" and "gender identity" which rendered them useful only to the gender ideologists.
"everybody overlooked the additions of "gender" and "gender identity" which rendered them useful only to the gender ideologists."
Any links for that blanket statement?
Unanimously passed – despite negative feedback from the public.
Speak Up For Women went through all the submissions.
https://www.facebook.com/plugins/post.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FSpeakUp4WomenNZ%2Fposts%2F1210846262756868&show_text=true&width=500"
Like a lot of laws then.
Perhaps.
However, it does suggest the unanimous vote could've been the result of political capture, rather than reflective of public support.
"Ces Blazey was the figurehead of the NZRFU that actually should have known better."
Indeed.
"Figureheads" have a responsibility to know better than to create situations that will cause harm to good people.
So Robert does that mean that we simply can't have events such as Let Women Speak because the organisers should be aware there will be violence?
Maybe organisers could expect people not to be violent ? Maybe the organisers could also expect appropriate police action to prevent violence from occurring
At the end of the day, the only person responsible for punching an elderly woman in the face is the person who punched her, but what you're suggesting sounds like you're getting a little bit close towards some form of victim blaming?
Based on your logic (or the point you seem to be alluding to) it would be hard to see how we could have any public events which are about issues affecting society because these days it's pretty much a given that some idiotic, pathetic, weak, cowardly people will always show up looking for a little bullying action.
You are projecting your view into my words, MichaelP, and finding "victim blaming" where there is none. If I meant to claim that, I would have said, "It was her own fault!", which is not what I've said at all; don't feel bad though; several other commenters here have done exactly the same thing, one even suggesting that I claimed "she was asking for it", citing a short-skirt-wearing rape victim meme in her reply. This assumptive debating is making the issue very challenging for anyone other than the "pro-PP faction" to comment on the issue. I'd be wise to have not engaged at all, or at least to stop now, but feel there's a need for some
poor fool,scapegoatperson, to at least have a go at it 🙂You say, "Based on your logic (or the point you seem to be alluding to)"
and therein lies the problem Incognito outlined yesterday; the keen-ness to attribute intention where there is none.
"Maybe organisers could expect people not to be violent ?"
Maybe. Organisers of public events where controversial figures are intending to speak "could" take extra care in the protection of vulnerable people, especially elderly people.
Try this thought experiment, MichaelP:
You are the sole organiser of a second PP event; same venue. You have seen what happened at the first. You understand the anxieties held by one particular community around PP. Do you give the event the go-ahead, welcoming all, including the vulnerable and the abusive, or do you tailor the event to the circumstances? Do you simply "expect people not to be violent"? and take no steps to ensure that is the case, for the sake of anyone vulnerable to harm?
Not victim blaming; wise event management, imo.
Look for potential problems; avoid them.
"…but I believe it was easily foreseen."
Why? Because at least one Green Party MP incited it? Or because trans activists can't any longer be trusted to engage in this conversation peacefully? Or both?
One Green Party MP incited "it"?
Ah! It's her fault then!
You're the one who claimed you believe 'it was easily foreseen'. So tell me why you think that. Do you not trust trans activists to respond within the law? Or do you expect that a tweet by a prominent MP that she is 'so ready to fight Nazi's' might just have the effect of rarking people up?
Was there tension/upset at the meeting prior to this one?
Was there no signalling from the trans community here as to their feelings and intentions?
You are kidding me, right?
There was no meeting in NZ prior to this one.
The trans community can signal all the feelings they like. That doesn't give them the right to suppress others freedom of speech.
You are enabling, supporting, the thugs veto.
So might is always right is that what you are saying?
So the women wanting to hear their own speaker were doubly jeopardised by
– the topic of the meeting not being flavour of the month (I mean women's rights, women's issues and free speech are so boring)
– not being able to defend their right to free speech by violence.
The meeting before this one was in Australia. NZ is not in Australia. We had an expectation that the Policing would be adequate and competent as it had been before at other protests in NZ.
That reads like a veiled reference to the ole "She should've kept her trap shut".
Not "trap shut" but calling in to an insecure venue, knowing there was the potential for trouble … her call!
Re: "her call!"
As good as "She asked for it".
Have you seen the video of the elderly woman being punched repeatedly in the face by a 20something man?
Or does your relentless apologism prevent you?
Ah, it's her fault then.
Whose fault?
I don't believe any one person was at fault, but some people didn't read the tealeaves, didn't act responsibly in the knowledge that strong protest was likely.
So the TRA protester who assaulted the elderly lady wasn't at fault then?
Really, what excuse can you possibly make for them?
Having seen the footage, it's clearly a deliberate assault, not an accident or a case of mistaken identity.
'Some people'.
Which people? The thugs who turned up and hit the elderly lady? The thugs who grabbed a woman and hurled her to the ground? The thugs who punched an elderly man? Those people?
"Whose fault?"
You know exactly what you said.
"calling in to an insecure venue, knowing there was the potential for trouble … her call!"
You're victim blaming, pure and simple.
who did it better?
https://twitter.com/therealrukshan/status/1642457742823800834
There were police present.
Posie holds her engagements outside, because when she held them in indoor venues, they were often cancelled at short notice.
So yes an on goal by cancel culture.
Honestly the victim blamming by the trans rights activists is unbelievable.
things like "she shouldn't have held the protest outside because she knew there would be trouble"
This is the sort of thing women have put up with for years. "why was she walking alone at night etc"
The tras mob were violent and shut down free speech. Own it
This reads like victim blaming. Women in the past have had to out up with this along with terms such as 'witch' and 'crone'.
The person with the fractured skull was exercising her right to stand waiting to attend an event with PP. This event was more or less gate crashed by the protestors who chanted, pulled the barricades down and then charged aggressively at the band rotunda.
The Let Women Speak event was not the interloper here. The interloper was the large number of protestors who felt that violence was justified so people, mainly women, could not exercise free speech. The fault clearly lies with this ill controlled crowd not PP or the Let Women Speak crowd.
You seem to be running a very odd narrative.
It seems that way to you, I recognise.
Those calling in supporters for the korero had no idea trouble might ensue?
Really?
Wood said:
" “It was also generally accepted by many parties before me that Ms Keen-Minshull’s views may well be potentially harmful to those communities, communities which are deserving of protection, being particularly vulnerable to harm and discrimination.”"
Seems fair to me.
You?
https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/131660282/damien-grant-were-having-a-free-speech-moment-it-isnt-going-well
There are some facts on that Robert – which Mr Wood obviously knows nothing about.
https://thecritic.co.uk/neither-marginalised-abused-nor-vulnerable/?fbclid=IwAR2tG9aStkbefxA-3k5RNUjOO9Lo3Pe7fVT7wvTmtZcnJ1yHbB7SuHgcxEg
That is a great article.
Clearly the politicians all round the world have bought the Job Lot '20 (untrue but possibly difficult to fact check) talking points on trans victimhood".
That's well beneath you Robert. Flat out victim blaming there.
I've not blamed anyone, Cricklewood, certainly not the victim (the elderly woman who was hurt).
I'm puzzled by your comment.
certainly not the victim (the elderly woman who was hurt).
A little disingenuous, wouldn't you say.
This is naive Robert.
You know you being puzzled is odd when you have been given so much information & references to access more plus comments by all sorts of people.
Why are you doing this?
At this point, I think the puzzled non-comprehension, has turned into downright trolling.
Have yet to see Robert put up a decent argument and be prepared to debate it.
Long responses, taking him seriously, are ignored.
Your comments are no different to those that happily use the 'she was asking for it' or 'she brought in on herself' defense.
An all to familiar trope that's often wheeled out when a young woman is harassed or worse.
That's not the case, Cricklewood but I can see you believe it is.
Pro-Posse commenters here seem to hold very un-charitable, unkind views toward transgender people. Some of the language used has been violent, imo ("chop of his penis" etc.)
If I was a transgender person, or the parent of one, I'd feel anxious reading these threads. I can see why the community could have felt the same way on hearing of PP's impending visit.
If your second sentence is linked to your first one (that the violent language has been used on TS) – then I'd really like you to link to this – so I can condemn it.
I don't recall this at all.
If it is not, then this is really, really misleading – and you should apologize.
I am charitably assuming that your reference to Posie is a typo.
I've not seen anything like that, care to provide a link to the comment/s you are refering to?
"Pro-Posse commenters here seem to hold very un-charitable, unkind views toward transgender people. Some of the language used has been violent, imo ("chop of his penis" etc.)"
Robert, please link to where someone on TS has said "chop off his penis",
If you can't, please rewrite your comment and provide examples of the language used on TS that has been violent.
I’m asking this as a moderator.
weka – I read this today, perhaps in a link. I'm happy to sit in moderation till I get a chance to find it (still filming, the crew arrived just now and are planning today's programme of filming.).
weka, it's clear that my time here on TS is up; there's no way I can rise above the atmosphere that's developed here. Others have fled the coup, I suspect, and I can't see a way to extricate myself from the mess of pottage. Not that I want to either. The focus has become exclusionary. It puzzles me greatly, the change that has come over the team here. Where before, teasing out issues was acceptable, with this issue, only complete agreement with the (now) dominant narrative seems allowable. Despite believing that I am able to understand issues such as this one well, I am being repeatedly told that I am unable to see the truth and am in fact, inflaming the situation. I am so acutely reminded of The Stroppery and this is not a good memory for me 🙂
I haven't read all the comments in the past day, was doing other things yesterday. Which is unfortunate because you did bring something concrete yesterday with Frank's post and I have been wanting to respond but haven't had the time.
The impression I have is that you've been doing your usual commenting of asking questions and making statements to tease things out but not making clear arguments with back up. Many people here are have a lot of experience with this issue and a great deal of knowledge and will argue hard from that because of what is at stake especially for women. I suspect you haven't had this kind of push back here before and it can be intense.
The easiest way to deal with that ime, is to bring arguments that are thought through and that have clear back up at the time. People here respect that even where they disagree, because it gives them something to think about and respond to.
Sometimes it works just to take a break for a while. You will be welcome to come back if you do take a break. There are other things to be talked about too, the election, how the Greens are going, where the good cultural shifts are happening (and where they are blocked).
Hope all goes well with the filming, looking forward to that!
Perhaps, weka, you might post a retraction from me, saying, I may well be mistaken about that and read that comment in a link from here. I don't wish to assign violent language to any TS commenter.
Thanks
thanks Robert, that’s all that’s needed 👍 What we find is that when people make controversial claims about what others on TS are saying, without linking, everything gets more agitated then it already was. You can understand that at this time, accuracy matters.
Fwiw, I can’t find that phrase in recent TS history (past few months)
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02-04-2023/#comment-1943311
I belive this is what Robert is referring to…
thanks.
It’s very crude, and very Germaine Greer. I don’t consider it violence against trans women who have surgery. In terms of TS I think about it alongside the arguments we’ve had here where men have said they have a right to have sex with a woman while she is asleep even after it’s been pointed out to them that it’s against the law. It’s finding that balance between robust debate and making the space good enough for more people to take part in that. I have no doubt that trans women avoid TS, but I know that women do as well.
Likewise I understand why many trans people felt anxious about KJK coming to NZ. And I understand the range of feelings that many women have in watching the mob attacking her and other women, and stopping NZ women from speaking at Let Women Speak.
None of this is going to go away, so we may we as well push on through and see if we can hash out the issues and come to something better.
I saw the words "have a right to have sex…" and thought oh here we go, some dickheads whining about not getting sex and giving men a bad name. Then I carried on reading to see that Men on here have stated it's ok or their right to have sex with a woman who is asleep??? OMFG!
Wow I missed that discussion. Unbelievable. That is trying to defend or justify rape for goodness sake.
Despicable viewpoints aside, how could anyone possibly enjoy having sex with someone who is asleep, assuming that the more obvious enjoyment your partner is having means the more enjoyment you're having??
Or am I just showing my age again….sigh.
Anyway, sorry to carry on an obviously older and by the sounds of it pretty offensive discussion I just saw the words and bristled…
it used to come up in the Assange debates, because some people were so keen to not have him charged they denied there were any problems with how he behaved to the two women.
Not that I want bring all that up again, but the salient point is that men objecting to rude, crude or harsh language about trans people in one of the biggest political debates in a generation need to understand the wider TS context for robust debate. If we’re arguing about sensitivity and who might be put off commenting. And, most of the GC comments about trans people specifically (rather than ideology) aren’t rude, crude or harsh.
Thank you, Cricklewood. I was a little rattled by the response and couldn't backtrack to find it.
"Good old Germaine Greer." was the lead in. I followed the suggestion. Wish I hadn't.
It's a very difficult subject, I'm pretty much a full on libertarian when it comes to social issues but can understand why biological woman feel threatened when it comes to spaces like bathrooms etc a woman feeling that way doesn't make them a fascist, nazi or a terf.
Sadly the rhetoric has become increasingly heated to the point where seemingly some feel physical violence is justified based loosely on the its ok to punch a nazi.
Imo our media and politicians added to that with the language used in the lead up to the event.
I'm not sure how this ever gets resolved but the path things are going down now it seems resolution becomes increasingly difficult.
Thank-you Robert for your herculean effort to redress the balance over this vexed issue. It has been pretty one sided and most have chosen to stay well away from the subject. I don't blame them one little bit. It has not been a pleasant experience.
I recall a reference to the “chop off his penis” but it might have been within a link and not a direct quote from a commenter. Whatever, no-one should have even linked to anything containing language like that.
why not?
This "incomprehension/poor comprehension" meme that's thriving here is regrettable, imo.
It doesn't pay to imply that some people are stupid. It's useful to question whether believing the other guy is stupid is a heads-up to check ones own bias/blinkers, especially where some of those who appear to "one" as failing to comprehend have previously provided intelligent commentary on other issues.
Sorry Robert, I have read your comment a few times and I don’t know what you mean. Where is the incomprehension meme? Are you saying that I am implying that someone is stupid?
I was interested in why Anne thought that no-one should ever link to language like Greer used.
@ Crcicklewood with the link to GG. Mine in fact.
This does not say chop off his penis.
What it does say is that if you are a man and you chop off your penis it does not make you a women any more than the wolf dressing up & lying in Grandma's bed makes it Grandma.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Red_Riding_Hood
I am finding the level of incomprehension worrying.
Distilled down to its starkest in this access to safe spaces for women it says:
Women don't have penises.
The clip from GG is very clearly written and typical GG. I loved her analogy about the long ears, liver spots and long brown coat and the spaniel. And having been exposed to GG for many years there will be a hint of self deprecation there as ageing females (and males) often have still growing longer ears and liver spots. It was laugh out loud to me. Laugh out loud because it is ridiculous.
And yet sadly this is the level of woo that women are supposed to believe uncritically.
It also is a sad commentary on the lengths that people will go, with bodily dysphoria issues. The administration of chemicals, often lifelong leading to sterility etc and the surgical moves that can lead to the after effects of surgery as well as from the procedures themselves.
"I am finding the level of incomprehension worrying."
Get a grip!
Pretty obvious I only recalled seeing the words with no recollection of where or the context. I merely confirmed to Robert I had seen it too because it was being questioned.
@ Anne. If you look at the clip I linked to it does not mention cut off his dick, in fact all the potentially naughty words are marked by ******.
Neither does the clip encourage anyone to cut off their penis.
I am wondering if the link RG saw was in fact the GG one.
The clip merely states GG belief system, that should be uncontroversial, that cutting one’s penis off does not make one a female.
This was the poor comprehension I am talking about, is when people do not understand this uncontroversial biological fact.
If a man has a cancerous tumour on his penis and has a penectomy does that make him a woman? I mean he has had his penis cut off.
Answer: no it makes him a man without a penis.
@ Robert Guyton.
Well if you know GG, who has been around commenting on Women's Issues since the 1970s.
(she was the author of the Female Eunuch in 1970s)
then you will remember she has always called a spade a spade.
All she said was that a man cutting off his penis does not make him a woman. She did not say 'cut off yr dick or penis" She commented on her belief system and that is that despite such surgery it does not make him a woman.
I find this to be biologically correct and uncontroversial.
Do you believe otherwise?
If so why?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germaine_Greer
I don't have an issue with your explanation, but fear you have missed the point entirely.
I won't claim you have reading comprehension problems 🙂 but perhaps you might consider the possibility that for some "communities", similar in concept to the community of women being steadfastly defended/promoted/championed here, the community of men (there are still, I believe, men reading TS) who find the choice of phrase/words used by GG and repeated over and over here, disturbing. You women may not, some of us men, do.
What is the phrase Robert, you do not give it so how can I moderate the use if need be if I don't know the phrase you are offended by?
In the GG link the phrase & others is illustrated by ******.
I don't think I have ever seen an agreement from you that men cannot some how turn into women ie recognition of biology.
Your continuing silence means for me that I have to think that you imagine that this can be done, some how.
I usually use this word below unless another word or ***** is in a quote. I did briefly toy with the idea of 'no dicks in dunnies' as a slogan but man, woman, penis, vagina seem quite able to do the 'lifting' here.
Are these offensive? Which one/s should I not be using and what word/s should I replace them by…happy to use male gentitalia and female genitalia if that would be better than penis or vagina?
To be frank I am baffled by you seemingly not getting the issue. Not getting an issue of biology seems to me an issue of comprehension.
Have you read some of the posts by Tsmithfield or RedLogix. Were they helpful?
That seems to me a remarkably silly analogy.
The proximate cause of the slash destruction was a weather event (or a series of weather events). No one can expect the rain to exercise discretion.
The proximate cause of the fractured skull of the assaulted woman was one (or more) violent protester, egged on by a supporting group – and validated by supporters in positions of authority. All of whom should have known better, and are criminally liable. One can certainly expect protesters to act with human agency and refrain from outright violence.
This was not an 'accident' (someone pushed over in the crush, or tripping and falling) – it was outright deliberate assault.
I condemn those who engaged in violence, those who encouraged violence, and those who have continued to refrain from condemning the violent actions.
Do you?
I don't support violence.
If those involved in organising the event knew that a vulnerable person might get seriously hurt, are they, in part, responsible for that outcome?
That is pure victim blaming. If you can't see it, then you should have a hard look at your own biases.
If a woman wears a short skirt and is raped – was she, in part "responsible for that outcome" /sarc/
The victim is not responsible for the criminal actions of the assailant.
I'm glad you don't support violence. Can you bring yourself to say that you condemn the violent actions of the TRA activists at the PP event?
Because, just about every comment you make is trying to blame someone else.
Good points Belladonna.
It would be reasonable to expect any protest to be peaceful. One would not expect protesters to behave like a bunch of uncivilized yahoos.
That has been my experience though I was not involved in frontline of the Springbok clashes though but I've been to sufficient to know that these were often rowdy affairs & marches up Queen St and along Lambton Quay would have had a fair few booing.
I was around in -81 Both sides in that episode of our history knew that there would be violence (knew there would be, not just thought there might be)
The protesters had their 'battle tactics' as did the police and pro tour supporters. Nobody was under any illusion which is why the frontlines of both sides wore helmets, body armour and carried weapons.
That's a whole different world away from holding an event called Let Women Speak and expecting protesters to be loud but not violent (a perfectly reasonable expectation IMO)
I don't know obviously but would guess that many of the women who were subjected to the violence at LWS all probably wouldn't have gone if they knew beforehand that there was going to be violence. Of course I could be wrong on that.
I guess some may have thought there would probably be violence and may have not ever been in a real life violent confrontation so may not have known quite how terrifying and unlike TV / the movies it actually is but that would be a small minority in my opinion.
Regardless of any of that the fault lies almost entirely with the perpetrators and I believe the police have to bare some responsibility also. If anything in New Zealand, anybody should e able to go to a protest with the assumption it will be peaceful.
What makes this really sinister (violence toward women aside) from my viewpoint is firstly that the violence seemed to probably be deliberate and targeted with a certain amount of pre planning or certainly forethought
Also the actions or lack thereof of the nz police which looks (again from my viewpoint) suspiciously like active or deliberate non engagement. What was the point of police even being there if they weren't going to do any policing?
Either that or the police were too scared to get involved (scared for their own physical safety and / or scared of possible public or ministerial backlash if they were to get physical) which if true would be disturbing in it's own right.
Why? They did, therefore it was something one might expect.
It's not the first time protesters have behaved "like a bunch of uncivilized yahoos."
Did you forsee it, Robert?
Perhaps you can link to your comments prior to the PP event/ TRA riot – telling us all that it would end in violence.
I certainly didn't.
I expected that there would be shouting and chanting, banner waving, and speeches, a counter protest (as we've seen many times in the past). An active, noisy, protest, making their point clear.
I expected that the Police would have a firm line between the two groups (also as we've seen in the past). And that there would be degree of pushing at the police line – but that common sense (on all sides) would prevail.
I expected that there would be lots of media coverage – of greater and less bias. And that some politicians, with natural constituencies in the TRA group, would be in attendance.
I did not expect that there would be virtually no police presence, and that when protesters breached the light barricades, they would then go on to violently assault people on the other side. And, I did not expect (though perhaps I should) that senior politicians would refrain from condemning this violence.
Good points Belladonna.
My expectation too. But we have a new style of policing now that we didn't know of beforehand.
And now we have people who would blame those who thought this was going to be protest of old, that 'we' should have known that there would be no police, that the protestors felt egged on and a moral right to be violent. Many protestors still would think they have/had the moral right to be violent I guess.
There has been no specific condemnation of the violence against KJM & those waiting to speak. Just some non specific wiffle waffle, everyones's a winner ooops protestor type stuff from PM Hipkins & complete disregard from Marama Davidson.
Shanreagh – you expected a significant police presence but didn't suspect there might be the potential for pushing and shoving, tomato sauce and worse?
That seems contradictory.
No more than the dozens of other protests which have had a police presence. It used to be routine that, if there was a counter protest signalled (as it very clearly was in this instance), police would firmly keep the two groups apart.
Here’s an example:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/brian-tamaki-led-protests-end-after-unsuccessful-attempts-to-access-auckland-motorway/3NCLOZ35ZOE4XZJTJZTL7QQU5Y/
Nothing contradictory about that.
And, please stop minimizing the violence.
You've been repeatedly called on this.
We are not talking about pushing and shoving, or even juvenile stunts like throwing sauce. We're talking about deliberate and targeted violent assault.
So, not the sauce.
Okay.
The assault was terrible. The atmosphere was very heated.
Could that heat have been predicted?
I believe so, given the circumstances.
Do you believe otherwise?
Robert, can you please respond to this before commenting further https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02-04-2023/#comment-1943341
I've popped you in premod in the meantime.
So Robert you actually have not found this. Someone found the Germaine Greer post I had put up but she does not espouse what you said she did. So you were incorrect.
Did you predict it?
I've asked this before, and you've refused to answer.
.https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02-04-2023/#comment-1943310
If you didn't predict that there would be outright violence – how can you expect that others would?
It seems to me that you're attempting to be wise retrospectively – we all have 20/20 vision in the rear-view mirror.
And again with the minimizing: "the atmosphere was very heated"
This is coming across, yet again, as a minimization of the deliberate violent assault that occurred.
Did I predict it (proof demanded).
Was it predictable: that's my point. I believe many people predicted there would be heated behaviour at the event. Why you didn't think so, I can't say. If I'd been in an advisory position (I wasn't), I'd tell a frail person to stay away or at least, keep their distance. People in heated situations can act in unexpected ways, especially when inflamed by the words and actions of others, as well as expectations formed as the result of previous situations of the same sort (earlier rallies, events on the same grounds, meetings of "the same crew"
Ha! I never refuse to answer 🙂
So, no you didn't predict it – but seem to now expect that 'others' should have done so.
Rather a double standard, don't you think?
Can you link to explict threats of violence from the TRA protestors made in advance of the PP event? Something that would have led ‘others’ to believe that the counter-protest would descend into violence?
Does it really matter where or how [the] violence started? The issue (i.e. Robert’s issue) is that it could, not should, be foreseen. In fact, there was a challenge in Court the day before the event that centred on the likely prospect of violence erupting.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/486623/posie-parker-brings-anti-trans-violence-threat-says-advocate-as-high-court-decision-looms
The two main things I can see that affect whether the event should have been cancelled ahead of time or not are that 1) did KJK and the organisers reasonably expect the police to keep the peace and 2) the original security team pulled out at the last minute, was the replacement team up to speed?
1) yes
2) don’t know.
What happened in Hobart suggested that similar would happen here. There was discussion about this in feminist circles. I didn’t see anyone predicting the dangerous mobbing of KJK and her team, nor the violence of the kind witnessed (the punching of the elderly woman). The tomato juicing was predictable and within protest norms, the mobbing and elder assault wasn’t. It was shocking, a watershed moment for NZ and it wasn’t in any way KJK or her team’s fault or responsbility.
KJK says things in very strong terms, and much like Germaine Greer she says things in ways that shock some people. Has anyone yet explained why Greer’s or KJK’s speech should be suppressed by making an argument against specific speech beyond ‘I don’t like that, it’s offensive’?
There is an order of magnitude difference between what they say and do and what Nazis say and do.
and, I don’t think the court action beforehand was anything to do with TRA protestor actions. It was about whether KJK’s speech would incite violence against trans people. Not women.
I’m not even talking about whether it should have been cancelled or not – I would not assume to be able to judge this and neither did the actual High Court Judge. It is a moot point, anyway.
What I do feel more confident about is that the risk of political violence has increased in NZ in recent years, which is deplorable but not entirely surprising. One could point to certain events and/or developments, here or overseas, but nothing changes the fact. I’ve linked to this before: https://www.newsroom.co.nz/risk-of-political-violence-this-election-still-high-shaw. This is the context, the backdrop, which is highly relevant.
If one insists on talking specifically about the event that took place in Albert Park, I note that the one person who probably knew best what to expect of what could happen was also best prepared.
The bigger picture seems to be missed when and while people focus on a much much smaller picture even though they may consider it as some kind of symbolic or watershed moment – we seem to have those more frequently nowadays, just like record-breaking weather events …
Let’s hope this is not the new ‘normal’ but the signs are not good and it serves to take heed of [the] warnings.
Really? Your saying the rainbow advocacy groups advocate turned up in court and said if this goes ahead we will likely react violently?
Really? Your [sic] not stupid, so try not act stupid. Violence was signalled as a likely scenario in the Court case. Make of this what you will but don’t put words in other people’s mouths.
I'm pretty sure that the argument was that KJK was going to say some things and then poof (because supposed hate speech has magic powers) violence would manifest against members of the community. Now I think that's pretty ridiculous, obviously, but your talking about an argument made by someone asking she not be allowed into the country, to protect a community he's advocating for.
I really don't think he was making a prediction of what actually happened where most of the violence and intimidation was metered out by the counter protest.
We've reached the end of the 'reply' function.
This one is to @Incognito
Robert's argument was that the violence at the protest could have been predicted. And, therefore (paraphrasing) the PP event should not have gone ahead and/or 'vulnerable people' (cf the elderly lady assaulted') should have known not to attend.
I don't agree:
a) That there were specific threats of violence from the TRA against PP supporters (indeed, your own link shows their fears were the other way around; and were in general, rather than being specifically related to the PP event).
b) That there was a heightened degree of unpredictable violence which was unable to be managed by an (inexplicably absent) standard police presence. We are not talking here about the level of protest which resulted in the parliamentary occupation. This was a standard rally/counter-rally situation. The police are well-used to dealing with the security aspects of them. The most important being to keep the two sides apart.
c) That the threat of violence should ever shut down a legal rally and/or protest. Where is our freedom of speech if we accept 'thugs veto'? That is the slippery slope that I see all too many on the left sliding down.
In a style that has become typical of this pseudo-debate, you are reading way too much in a simple straightforward comment. Consequently, and consistently, you make unjustified assumptions and extrapolations and use these to steer the ‘debate’. And of course, you “don’t agree”, that goes without saying – trying to understand where others are coming from and meeting them somewhere in the middle of the debate has been discarded to make way for polarising arguing by polarised people that fuels further polarisation. Anybody who has not (yet) grazed some skin in this ongoing ‘debate’ can see this clearly.
Quite agree Belladonna.
Quite funny (if you like that kind of humour) that the push for truth is now call polarising.
See above
Thank you, Incognito, for your reasoned and balanced response. The incidence of people "re-phrasing" the words of another then responding in accordance with their own interpretation, is disturbing and has, I'll bet, caused many commenters to steer clear of the topic. There's a Gish gallop, gaslight atmosphere around this joint at the present time. Others, I believe, feel this also.
Not at all.
That used to be what the Police were there for.
To keep the pushing and shoving in check. To be on the alert for breaches of the peace that would disrupt a group of people who were lawfully exercising their rights to gather in a park to listen and share issues do with women's rights and issues.
And identify more subtle threats; inflammatory speeches, the arrival of opposing factions, unexpected events. They also have to bear in mind the influence of their own presence on some crowds. Keeping a low profile can be a strategy to maintain order, in some cases.
*I have no view about the police in this particular instance
Robert, the Police were conspicuous by their absence.
There have been complaints to the IPCA about this.
So I read.
Not sheeting that to the protesters though, are we?
The transactivists you mean? They were the ones protesting.
Most of those I respect/read have been condemning the violence used by the transactivists. I do too. The Police, belatedly, are looking at the issue and they hopefully will charge the ones breaching laws.
That is not the function of the IPCA.
The protesters, I mean.
How many protesters, Shanreagh, do you believe, used violence at the event?
And are those who did, representative of the pro-trans community?
@ Incognito & Nic the Nzer
So if transactivists say that violence will occur, are they saying that it would be the PP event attending demographic that will be causing it? because looking at the demographic in Hobart, they would have been pushing it. Some quite old, in years, looking people attending and some speakers the same. Some of the supporters who filled in for the lacking police behind the women, were at least my age.
So where was this violence going to come from?
If not the PP people then from the transactivists?
So the argument is that it is Ok to threaten the ability of women to gather & to speak because some parts of our society do not want them to? or was it a recognition that the transactivists may have lost control of those who might be attending?
So in either case women miss out because others cannot control their own violence.
Odd view
Again it seems wrapped up in the view that because 'we' cannot control ourselves you should not do this or that
That seems very like the excuses for rape or domestic violence that were responses we often heard until we started listening/thinking about the meaning of them & whether they were victim blaming.
Nothing but a series of assumptive questions and conditional hypotheticals leading to an odd conclusion followed by, of course, more assumptions that are inaccurate, at best.
The so-called debate in a nutshell. Jesus wept.
You've expressed exactly what I've been feeling, Incognito.
Ok I have been amazed that PP non attendance has let women see, in plain sight, those who have women's rights and women's issues tightly bound to their hearts and minds.
Don't you think that left wing women would also like left wing men to get it? After all this time, after all our thoughts and trying to carefully explain to get the points across over several years .
As you say
'Jesus wept'.
In this community, or micro-cosmos, that we call TS, I’d like to see building bridges and not burning bridges. One would think this would be easier (!) between politically like-minded people but almost the opposite seemed to be happening. Sometimes it helps to take a step back, a deep breath or two, and a good look at what’s happening and what we’re doing and ask ourselves if this is what we want. If the answer is “No” then we need to change and become the change we want to see here and/or elsewhere (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefigurative_politics) – we should not and cannot wait for others to act first. The choice is simple, the task/journey is not …
Plunket plunked!
“It wasn’t me who whipped up hysteria about Nazis … given the crowing from the anti-women brigade [online] I’m presuming they complained,” he said."
"Crowing" "Anti-women"
Got any supporters here, has Plunket??
https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/300845946/broadcaster-sean-plunket-suspended-from-twitter
Thankyou Incognito.
How are we to build bridges when our own Govt has brought in legislation that will allow males to have access to women's safe spaces? And our own PM does not know what a women is? (Thank you Sean Plunket)
Where does the bridge come from?
To me, a user, and sometimes a frightened user in any kind of toilet especially that is open to the public ie std public toilet, the line for me is males should not be in the safe spaces I am using. I am less uneasy in female only spaces in areas such as dept stores or picture theatres. I am most reluctant to use any unisex labelled spaces after experiencing these in two workplaces.
I reflected tonight that come June I will be required to share the female toilets at the Embassy theatre with males. How do I know they are trans if they look, sound and dress like males?
I class males as anyone with a penis, or whatever word is acceptable to RG, if penis is too harsh.
This may be all good with males. It is not all good with females and I shudder to think what elderly women with walkers or younger ones with children will feel. We just should not do these things to people.
The context of my comment was TS. The bridge comes from the people, the people who build bridges, not the ones that burn them (https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/487306/spike-in-online-hate-toward-trans-community-after-posie-parker-visit-researchers), i.e., from people like you and me. Then you, we all keep on building, and maintaining, and repairing. It requires constant work and vigil. But I might as well talk about the Fairies in Utopia instead of the good people in Eutopia …
@ Incognito
4 April 2023 at 9:30 pm
Fairies are good
Utopia is good
Aspirations are good.
Fairies are not real.
Utopia is not real.
Aspirations are not real unless they lead to actions that have tangible outcomes.
https://fee.org/articles/utopia-versus-eutopia/
@ Incognito
Dreaming/letting the mind wonder/often used in the corporate context by mind mapping to link disparate concepts is good.
Aspirations or the desired end state first then the plan to get there.
I also think that the desired state in society can be legislated for ahead of time, is that coercive? Sort of benign coerciveness?
Then we wait for society to catch up. I feel we did that in the Human Rights legislation.
I shall read the Utopia/Eutopia carefully my limited googling seemed to say they were synonyms. But clearly they are not.
Aspirations and intentions (good or bad), for example, are like that bloody tree in the forest. There is no proof of them, ever. No brain surgeon ever opened a skull and exclaimed ‘WTF! I found an aspiration!’
I used that Utopia/Eutopia quote for the second part; I should have emphasised it. Please don’t read anything [else] into it, because that was not my intention at all. You have to trust me on this because I cannot prove it to you 😉
That said, it is a fairly interesting article for a random find.
@incognito. I was not going to launch into new wave Eutopia etc…..but interesting.
Thank you.
Ps Just had a thought though, although a post mortem won’t find an intention or aspiration if you consider that a human being exists by their word/work outside their body you might find an aspiration there.
Actually I am an embroiderer/quilter/textile artist and the aspirations/intentions are often called UFOs or unfinished objects.
That wasn’t where i actually started out to go and may have blown my argument about aspirations being found extrinsically.
@ Robert Guyton.
is this really important?
What is important is that the anti women's rights protesters breached the barricades, surged forward and caused mayhem.
This the concept behind what my Dad used to say when he realised that I was not going to sit back but protest
look right
look left
and if you don't like what you see leave.
I am sure that some would have seen the danger that this was not an ordinary peaceful protest and left. And so proud of them
The ones remaining were complicit to varying degrees in the violence that followed.
I should have deleted the above 5.05pm but missed the deadline. Not a good faith question and I wasted my time/brain power answering.
Sorry
As you were Robert, someone will answer.
"I am sure that some would have seen the danger that this was not an ordinary peaceful protest and left."
That's what I'm saying.
It was not impossible/difficult to see that trouble was brewing.
Robert I apologise in advance as I'm not Shanreagh and you addressed your comment to Shanreagh. (Hmm it's almost as if I deliberately avoided using a pronoun there)
But…. I have to add my 2 cents worth. I would expect a big police presence at any public event especially where a protest is involved. This doesn't automatically assume violence.
Surely for society / the public square to function at least somewhat well there has to be an assumption of being able to hold a public event whether controversial or not without including violence to be expected as part of that assumption?
Dane’s piece was good.
@ Robert Guyton The trouble is you seem to be thinking that it is the women who wanted to listen to PP who should have left or not gone.
Those who should have left, once they had seen that there was violence afoot are those I called the transactivists. There were people from this group who were assaulting women making their way through the crowd or trying to find PP.
I don't think anyone from the transactivists group could have been unaware that the plan by some was to disrupt PP. Not just shout from a polite distance etc. And so with not policing around the band rotunda and at the barricades they took this opportunity.
Another "seem to be thinking": "The trouble is you seem to be thinking that it is the women who wanted to listen to PP who should have left or not gone."
People involved in the event; supportive attendees, antagonistic attendees, curious bystanders, political figures, controversial figures, organisers, police, security personnel, could have made all manner of choices. It was up to them. Many decisions made were poor, imo. I'm betting many women (such as yourself, I seem to recall) will have mulled over attending and decided not to go. Many people from the general public who are not women will have chosen to stay home. I wish, for the sake of her wellbeing, the woman who was hurt, had stayed home and again, for the sake of the woman who was hurt, PP had chosen a different way to convey her message.
The reason I was wavering/opting not to go, ie have my rights to free speech curtailed was because of the threats of violence and the hunch that police were going to ineffectively stand back as they did in Hobart. (I wrote/spoke to SUFW immediately after the Hobart episode to see what the Police had been saying.
I was wavering all the while between why the heck should a bunch of people who bear me & other women ill will try to stop me and then acceptance that there were people there bearing us ill will, I could not run as fast as in my youth etc.
What was also swaying me was, as I said, somehow I was still getting tweets from those involved in the parliamentary protest, many were involved in banners, food preparation, organising of loud noise-makers. I had been looking at these tweets all the way through the PP (it helped dispel 'the happy just making a point' protestors myth)
Some of the anti women comments were bordering on unhinged
I had also witnessed the demonstration against the Springbok tour outside the Parliament Gates in Molesworth st. A work colleague & I (waiting for our buses) saw police, bottling the protestors up against a hard police line at the intersection of Hill & Molesworth sts while guiding them away from Lambton Quay. Civic Square where PP was to speak although a wonderful town square space was ideal for protestors /police to bottle us up into an increasingly smaller space.
By Saturday morning I had resolved to look at the PP events in Auckland and make my mind up after that.
Again victim blaming Robert.
You are continuing to miss the point that women should be free to attend such events and make our own judgements about the message. Women should not have to confine themselves to homes because of the fear of people exercising the thug's veto.
You will recall that when the SUFW tried to hire a Manawatu venue to let women know about the No Debate issue that they were taken to court with a highly organised and funded group of people while SUFW figuratively scurried round organising cake stalls. SUFW won the court case. The group had tried to say SUFW were a hate group.
https://www.franksogilvie.co.nz/news/case-brief-whitmore-v-palmerston-north-city-council
Imagine this played out against the ACC & WCC councils.
The venues were chosen as public spaces.
"Again victim blaming Robert."
"Victim blaming" must mean something very different to you than it does to me, Shanreagh.
I'm NOT saying or implying that the victim of the violence at the PP meeting brought it on herself, which seems to be your interpretation. I'm saying I wish she hadn't been hurt at all. It's not her fault she was hurt. You believe, I think, that she should be free to go wherever she pleases, safely. So do I, but wise counsel can help prevent trouble. You did plenty of research before deciding not to attend. I wonder what you might have advised that woman, had she asked you beforehand?
If, upon reading my explanation here, you still see victim blaming, I'll have to fold on the issue, as I respect your judgement and sincerity.
Victim blaming is not being able to make the free choice to be there or if having made the free choice then something bad happens.
I wear a skirt walking along a street to my car at night. Apparently I am 'silly, unwise' to have done this. That is victim blaming.
I think we can safely say we disagree on what victim blaming is.
I have found that people sometimes victim blame because they wrap up two concepts into one. Not sure I can fully explain but here goes.
1 in the scheme of things should I be able to walk to my car along a street, being obviously female at night?
of course
2 facing the reality that it is an unequal world for women out there could I take some mitigation measure that might affect my risk?
of course there is that possibility that some thing you might lessen your risk.
3 Should these measures I take derogate from the premise that I should be able to walk freely in a street to my car at night without taking them
Of course not.
Re the woman. I am a competent researcher, I am retired and have time to research. I found the levle of agression mainly through fortuitous unexplored Twitter follows that I amassed before and during the parliamentary protest. She may not have had that available to her.
In fact the thing that would have swayed me & maybe the woman was that the Police were not going to be there, as of old, policing against breaches of the peace.
If they had been told it was going to be 10 security guards protecting the speaker and nobody else. people may have thought, I may not be able to protect myself against thugs if there is no policing.
My view is that had the police advised they were not going to be there then many may have decided it was too dangerous to go.
It would also been very explicit in showing how policing may work for some in crowds but not for all.
"Victim blaming is not being able to make the free choice to be there or if having made the free choice then something bad happens."
Apologies, Shanreagh, but that makes no sense to me.
Please just try.
If you 'should not go' in the words of those who say they know best and then you do go and do that scenario.
You do go, something bad happens to you, the 'should not goes' pile in and say 'oh but you should not have gone', that is victim blaming. That is not blaming the society we live in, the people who walk the street making others feel unsafe, the lack of policing etc. It totally blames the victim
She should have investigated, should have worked off a hunch that the police were going to be a no show should have…she should have, should have ……
That is victim blaming.
As I said before we do have a different concept of victim blaming.
You don't get to be my age to see how it is often used against women, though it is getting better.
So now we don't allow defence lawyers to bring evidence of a woman being sexually active in rape trials, so blamed as she brought it on herself, many look beyond the facile 'oh she shouldn't have been walking home or to the car or anywhere'
So accepting there was free will, the woman went to the event, she was beaten up. The victim blamers then say 'oh but she shouldn't have made a decision exercising her free will with the best knowledge she had because…..because…because. But she did go . 'Oh yes but she shouldn't have, why did she go? And on it goes.
PS Hopefully you are better able than PM Hipkins at identifying what a woman is. He’s made NZ a laughing stock around the world. In a week or so of continual laughter and OMG from overseas commentators. It is sad.
'Seem to be thinking'.
Robert your questions, to me, are often fair from clear, you often don't respond when asked a question. I venture to suggest that the issue would have died down to a simmer had you not come along with your again, to me, opaque questions.
As you are often a quirky, polished and competent poster on here many of us have persisted with your questions as we thought it was a way of sharing knowledge. I was mistaken. The knowledge we have passed on has not been used as a spring board. It has been ignored. Meanwhile we have been asked to grapple with victim blaming statements as if they were of equal merit to other comments.
The Socratic type method only works when the questioner exhibits good faith and has a knowledge of the topic.
Was discussing this with some friends and interesting things were said in regards to 'what is keeping men out of the fight for women's rights'.
My two female friends were adamant as to their opinion on this matter and I pretty much feel the same They firmly believe that it is because in particular young men have grown up in an environment that doesn't encourage such action in any way, shape or form.
Young men in the last couple of decades have been told to shut up when it comes to anything to do with women. They are being told that women don't need men to protect them and further don't need men full stop.
They are told that to risk rejection and humiliation in trying to chat up a girl they fancy is akin to sexual assault. They are taught that masculinity is toxic and that women in our society are oppressed by males. They observe that nobody cares about how dangerously low boy's educational achievement is becoming as long as the girls are doing well….
The list could go on and on but you get my point. I can easily see how a confused young man could be afraid to speak up for women because he may get told off for being sexist or that women don't need his help, etc
Personally I can remember three specific occasions where I have stepped in to prevent violence against women the first time was in my teens (years ago…) at a party where I tried to prevent a girl being kicked and stomped on by a bunch of thugs I ended up being bottled and got a bit of a kicking but she was ok and was really appreciative of my help (no not like that get your mind out of the gutter) on the second occasion I stopped a guy beating up his girlfriend outside our local and spent a night in the cells for my troubles (but no charges were laid and I was released the next morning)
On the third occasion the girl I was trying to help ended up jumping on me and started hitting me as well as her violent partner having a go at me ! I managed to escape fairly easily and left them to it.
I found out later that this is bizarrely quite a common thing where the woman being attacked ends up attacking the guy harming her boyfriend. I'm guessing there's probably underlying psychological and / ot logical reasons for this maybe?
Regardless, these bad experiences haven't deterred me and there have been a number of other episodes. I will still intercede if I see a man attacking or hitting a woman. That's how I was bought up and was the way my group of friends all thought as well. In fact I try and stop any violence from occurring nowadays whether the victim is a woman or a man. Funnily enough working on the door at a nightclub has also moulded this 'need' to become involved.
I must emphasise that my involvement has always been with the intent to stop the violence or at least to protect the victim and I've become pretty good at it over the years finding that the majority of the time, people can be talked down as long as they haven't had really excessive amounts of alcohol.
Anyway, I would assume also that fear will prevent many men from getting involved especially in modern times where men never learn nor are taught how to fight or how to project their physicality because 'toxic masculinity'. So when confronted with physical violence they are simply to fearful to do anything which is a perfectly normal reaction.
Anyway, just a few thoughts on the topic. Nothing too dinosaur like I hope!
Good points Michael.
We need physically support and we also need the support from the brains of good thinking men.
David Limbrick an Aussie MP talks to Sall Grover
'About Sall Grover: Sall Grover is the founder & CEO of Giggle, a female-only social networking app. Prior to the launch of the platform, trans activists “cancelled” it, labelling it “transphobic” because it is only for biological women. Sall advocates for womens sex based rights to female spaces & sport, and highlights the conflicts between gender ideology and reality.'
Some good comments as well.
Nice, well worth the watch.
Neil Oliver?
Neil "Music is woke. Not being racist is woke. Genders are woke. Sprouts are woke. Football is woke. TV is woke. Wood is woke. Chips are woke. Woke is woke. WOKE, WOKE and more WOKE…" Oliver?
The once respectable TV presenter who had a mid life crisis, re-emerging looking like a two dollar shop Charles Manson? That Neil Oliver?
This unhinged fucking idiot Neil Oliver? Jesus spare me.
He should have stuck to archaeology.
Who woulda thunk it?
/
https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1641779403662192640
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/mar/30/vulkan-files-leak-reveals-putins-global-and-domestic-cyberwarfare-tactics
What evidence is there that the Vulkan files were leaked to Wikileaks?
Unless that can be provided the post is meaningless.
More to the point, a 2022 list of jailed journalists throughout the world , compiled by The Committee to Protect Journalists, does not include the name of one Julian Assange
https://harpers.org/archive/2023/03/alternative-facts-how-the-media-failed-julian-assange/
Time that these attempts to smear Assange and Wikileaks stopped
Walks like a duck…but sure, meaningless..
https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/17/wikileaks-turned-down-leaks-on-russian-government-during-u-s-presidential-campaign/
Did you find any evidence the Vulkan file had been sent to Wikileaks?
For what it is worth the Australian High Commissioner is finally making a formal visit to Assange.
Finally
It will be the first time the Wikileaks founder has accepted a consular visit since November 2019, and the first time a high commissioner has met with the Australian behind bars.
"Shortly after I arrived here, his father approached me requesting that I visit Mr Assange," Mr Smith told SBS News.
"Through his lawyers, Mr Assange agreed to that visit and I welcome that very much.
"We have made, before my arrival, over 40 offers to provide consular assistance, none of which he has taken up. That's not said critically, that's just a fact, but I’m very pleased he has agreed to my request to see him."
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/what-could-a-prison-visit-from-australias-new-uk-high-commissioner-mean-for-julian-assange/z8q8o0byw
I have to guess that for some undisclosed reason there is reason to think there might be a useful outcome this time.
Exactly, it wasn't as if the Australian government was ever doing their utmost to support Assange, or challenge the US decision to prosecute him .I'm not surprised Assange had no great confidence in the high commissioner.
not much discussion I can find about the muppet show with special guest leader chris luxon, whoops, I mean the national partys policy announcement about electrifying the economy. It's certainly good to see them actually release some policy, even it's a continuation of "what the other guy said". And I guess it's good to see National actually having something to try and address climate change, rather than just "continue with what the last guy did but do nothing else". One wonders if they will have the gonads to face down the likes of ground swell and tell them no more kicking the can down the road, or whether we will see the same national party of the past 20 years. Accept He Waka Eke Noa and get on with implementing it, accepting that it is only a start and much more still remains to be done
Expect a National Party of old if they have their way. What'll be new is a huge purge of Labour Party policy and legislation. Usually an incoming National Party is a continuation of Labour initiatives with a few minor changes as you have pointed out.
But it's not really about National. It's about ACT. ACT has promised it won't be business as usual for those pompous Tories if they are to enter into coalition. I believe them!
As for the ''muppet show'', that moniker belongs to Labour. They have pissed away a massive come back after Jacinda had the good sense to bugger off and let Chippy take over. A few weeks ago Labour had parity with National. Regardless of what the polls show, and barring Luxon being arrested for drug trafficking, Labour are gone at the next election. Robbo has basically said there won't be any more personal goodies in the upcoming budget for supporters.
My question is ''Why does National want to win the election? Have they a death wish? This country is in terminal decline and neither major party will be able to fix it. If I was Luxon l'd play golf and leave the hard stuff for Chippy. Unfortunately politics doesn't work that way. Everyone believes they have the answers
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/131559145/getting-the-basics-right-grant-robertson-on-the-budget-jam-and-what-keeps-him-up-at-night.
There was a guest on RNZ The Panel on Friday – Professor Ralph Simms – who pretty much indicated most of the ideas in Nationals new policy especially re consents are already in process. So as per nothing new, mostly hot air.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/thepanel/audio/2018884165/the-panel-with-jenni-giblin-and-allan-blackman-part-1
Mana Wāhine Kōrero posted this livestream this afternoon:
Waiheke Women Will Speak
https://www.youtube.com/live/pgW3zQ–HSk?feature=share
Here's an interesting local military technology that even NZ can afford – a good way to beat the entry costs of bringing our military up to speed with evolving drone warfare – Ozzie built cardboard drones.
Did this news item emerge on April 1st.
Two days ago – so, no.
Cardboard is quite a sensible material for finite use drones – light, robust, cheap, easy to fabricate.
The average lifespan of a reconnaissance drone in the Ukraine is apparently four sorties, so these cardboard drones – delivered in their hundreds in flat packs – make perfect sense. And of course, loitering munitions (AKA kamikaze drones) go on one way missions.
Of course! brilliant!
I was totally taken in by this one:
Reminiscent of the orange traffic cones that Fulton Hogan advised us about on 1/4/23?
(As well as the sarcasm emoji we need a 'taps side of nose' emoji as well.)
PS what a joy to hear the laughter though.
PPS I have actually used that sticky black stuff. The remains of a tin was given to me by a plumber & I have been eking it out since..
Cotton caulking!
That's what I'm talking about!
It ought to be oakum – oakum is a byproduct of a linen industry. Linen is harder wearing than cotton, and better for the soil.
These fibres are exciting! How about … hemp??
Harakeke – Phormium tenax?
Hara (not) keke (pandanas).
Linum usitatissimum.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flax
Dammit any of them! & What are we doing? None of 'em – not even the unsustainable cotton 🙁
I have followed this astonishing rebuild right form the outset about five years ago. What the team have done is a real insight into how our forefathers tackled work like this; how challenging it was and how smart and tough they were in dealing with the limitations of the materials they had to hand.
While the prank is obvious in hindsight, they managed to lead many people deep into the hoax before the penny dropped. If they were like me they were sus that something wasn't right – but it was so well executed I have to say I was taken in.
At least up to the point where the chainsaw came out.
As for the calking – oakum was an option, but apparently cotton suits this purpose better. I’m not sure why. You should have seen them doing the hull – that was way more massive.
I was waiting for the door…….and the wait did not let me down.
Good old Germaine Greer.
'She said: “Just because you lop off your d**k and then wear a dress doesn't make you a ******* woman. I’ve asked my doctor to give me long ears and liver spots and I’m going to wear a brown coat but that won’t turn me into a ******* cocker spaniel.\
Yes right.
In 2015
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/germaine-greer-defends-grossly-offensive-comments-about-transgender-women-just-because-you-lop-off-your-d-k-doesn-t-make-you-a-woman-a6709061.html
I know a man who believes he's Jesus Christ implementing the long awaited '2nd coming'. He lives in a lunatic asylum.
What is the difference between a man who thinks he's Jesus Christ, and a man who is convinced he's really woman?
Well that is the really sad thing Mikesh.
Many of the younger ones troubled by concerns over how they present to the world may not be adequately recognised or cared for under our current health or mental health initiatives. At this age group (teens) there is an almost over whelming peer preference for receiving information.
What really worries me though is the pre teens, pre puberty where the sole access to information may be through Mum or Dad who might be concerned about their tomboy daughter or gentle souled arty boy. These are ghastly stereotypes….I can hardly bear to think that people would still be concerned by them.
I have not read very much but there are concerns about the competency of some of the gate-keeping and consent-obtaining practices in organisations running transition clinics.
As far as the other end is concerned Autogynephilia*, this has a later onset, apparently. Many of these paraphilias are non threatening to others. This one though to me has the potential to be a bit more than bothersome in the current climate when perhaps the apogee is to dress plus try to use female spaces…..much to the concern of the women there who can mostly usually tell that there is male present. Women have great concerns about any male being in these spaces.
Perhaps those who push the boundaries (being a nuisance or sexually misbehaving) there may need psychiatric treatment.
The point though is most women do not want all these experiments going on in their safe spaces, we don't need things to actually go wrong before we recognise that they are wrong.
*is defined as a male's propensity to be sexually aroused by the thought of himself as a female. It is the paraphilia that is theorized to underlie transvestism and some forms of male-to-female (MtF) transsexualism.
Really sad (well at least sad to me) story here – which may illustrate the pressures teens are under.
I have a friend who has a 15-year-old daughter. Lovely kid. A bit quirky. Some neurodiversity.
Badly bullied at school (difference is targeted like sharks after blood) – mostly by girls. [The unwillingness of schools to deal with bullying effectively has a heck of a lot to do with adolescent anxiety IMO]
I'd say probably lesbian – but struggling with emerging sexuality (as many of us have in our teen years). [And, being sexually attracted to the people who are bullying you, is a deeply confusing experience]
Highly supportive socially left-wing family.
No support from the state system in or out of school. Bullying not dealt with. No mental health support. No counselling. Zip.
Comes 'out' as transgender. New gender, new name, new identity. Suddenly, support is coming out of the woodwork! Bullying at school is firmly stamped on. Counselling is offered. Mental health is supported.
Now, I'm not suggesting she's lying. But for a kid who is confused and experimenting with sexuality – transgender has offered a heck of a lot more social validation and psychological support, than lesbianism did.
Maybe it depends where you are and how panicked the school is.
I have family working in this bullying/sexual preference/trans-gender space and frankly they have zero interest in differentiating between the differences or steering anyone in any direction.
They just help try and resolve the bullying and make the place safe for the student or employee.
Some schools and workplaces have no gay people at their school or workplace and therefore require no help – they are pretty quick to ask for help if someone is trans-gender – that is too difficult for them to cope with. It may not be that help wasn't available previously it may be that the school didn't see an issue (and I don't see why students should have to state their sexual preference to get help for bullying anyway – it isn't any of the schools damn business) but now it is panic britches.
In this case, the only thing that changed about the student and their needs, was the transgender element.
The student and family had been begging the school for help with the bullying issue for at least 2 years. No action. When he becomes transgender, it's suddenly a priority for the school to deal with…..
Exactly my point. It isn't that help was not available previously.
Perhaps we're talking past each other – but the help wasn't available to her previously. Despite the desperate attempts of her parents.
It might have been in theory, but in practice, …. zip.
But now, he has:
The list goes on.
You'll have read this?
https://politicalbytes.blog/2023/04/02/class-transphobia-and-street-democracy/
“I agree that Kelly-Jay Keen is not a fascist. But there are indications that she is nearly a fascist, and precisely the sort of person that good people would wish to shut up.”
“• Kelly-Jay Keen has fulminated against school-girls wearing burkas as “Not British”
• She has tried to whip up Islamophobia in Bradford, where fascism is rife.
• She has publicly praised Tommy Robinson, clearly an English fascist.
• And most recently when open fascists have supported her, Kelly-Jay Keen has refused to reject that support, for example at her Melbourne event.”
Curious claims, if true.
I'm failing to see what that has to do with the point we're discussing here. Nothing to do with KJK.
This:
"The argument for transgender women threatening women’s rights is difficult to comprehend. It appears to rest on threatening biological women in their space in public toilets. Now as a cis male (I don’t like that term) I’m unfamiliar with women’s toilets. However, I assume that they are the same as male toilets minus a urinal.
That is, one enters, goes into a small cubicle, does one’s business, comes out, washes ones hands (hopefully) and then departs. The common toilet space is not designed to want users to stay. There is no market for a barista to be inside selling coffee. Unless I’m missing something, I’m struggling to see how these could be spaces providing opportunities for violation.
While this logic appears absurd, the underlying premise is horrible. That is, the dishonest, unsubstantiated and bigoted accusation that trans women are inherently aggressive. Hasn’t that been said about others before!"
https://politicalbytes.blog/2023/04/02/class-transphobia-and-street-democracy/
Oh boy.
You're missing something (quite a bit actually, but start with this one)
https://www.scotsman.com/regions/edinburgh-fife-and-lothians/female-spaces-need-better-protection-after-trans-woman-sex-assault-girl-say-campaigners-140883
Remember, under self-ID law, trans-women need to simply declare they are women. This has thrown the door wide open to sexual predators (that is men who like to sexually assault women and girls) – to camouflage themselves as 'trans-women' in order to do so in spaces which used to be women only.
There is case, after case, after case, in jurisdictions which have enacted the self-ID law.
That quote is a really good reason for why men need to listen to women more, and in this case, gender critical women.
Women are not men minus something. I know he didn't say that, but it was close. Women's toilets aren't the same as men's minus urinals. We have different bodies and different social experiences. That's the whole frigging point.
A non-comprehensive list of things that women do in toilets which mean we require female only spaces.
the usual peeing and pooing.
managing menstruation: changing tampons or pads, cleaning a menstrual cup, washing clothing with blood on it, resting, waiting out pain, vomiting.
miscarrying babies (yes, there's been whole twitter conversations about this where women have shared that the place they ended up having their miscarriage was a public toilet and how important it as to be in a female space).
changing clothing.
talking with other women.
the energy of male free space.
I get that many men won't understand why any of that matters, but support for women shouldn't be dependent upon that. We have a right to our own culture, spaces and rights simply because we exist.
There are most definitely safety issues. From males, be they men or TW. Self ID means that any man can say they are a woman at any time and this is to be accepted and supported. There's no evidence to suggest that TIMs don't have the same patterns of male violence that other men do. No-one is saying that TW are inherently violent, any more than we are saying that men are inherently violence. Women cannot predict in advance which males will be violent or intrusive, hence we have female only spaces.
There's a whole genre of porn based on women's toilets. There's an increase in the UK in men filming women in women's toilets and changing rooms. Teen girls are being harassed in gender neutral spaces. TIMs are masturbating in women's spaces and posting this online
And there are dignity and privacy issues.
Some more while with children or elderly women.
Waiting with the door open, talking while a littlie goes wees or poos complete with the encouraging sounds we make or talk while said child goes to the toilet. On completion checking child, wiping child, arranging child's clothes, holding child, and semi closing the door while you yourself may go to the loo.
Same with elderly women, they may have a walker, a prolapse, continence issues, they may be in a rush.
So while they may go in a toilet with the door shut, often you are there outside, especially if continence pads or pants need changing. So helping them with these, helping to arrange clothes, may be outside of the confines of the cubicle.
So if someone has a walker it can be awkward, my mother felt she did not want to go to the disabled toilet as she felt these needed to be kept free for those with a real need while we/she managed with grace, chat (with other women) etc in the regular women's toilets.
Some women's toilets have the baby change table there. Some mothers do not want adult males there because of perving or surreptitious photographing of their babies. Some more spacious toilets/restrooms may have a separated lounge area (some department stores have these) where women may like to use the quiet space to breastfeed a baby. Again not an area they want males in.
The whole area of female grooming. updating makeup. some I have seen doing a complete makeup and clothes change after work ready to go out. Right down to day time makeup removal, cleansing etc & then new makeup together with tweezers and eyelash curlers. Sometimes the clothes are changed out in the open ie not in a cubicle if these are crowded, women help others do up zips etc.
In my more regular socialising days I have been a guard to an unknown woman who had rushed to the loo to get away from a man. She described him and I scouted around outside to make sure he had gone before leaving with her to go back to the bar.
I have been part of a group helping an unknown woman who had either had a drink spiked with vodka or drugs. She made a rush for the toilets. Women are can be at their most vulnerable to assaults when this happens to them. Several of us stayed with her, calmed her while others alerted the female bar staff. some stayed with her until she was past the worst of her drugged state.
A female flatmate was assaulted in a public toilet, beaten by a man who was in there before she could get her wits about her and run away. Then, as it was before the days of assigning a victim support person she was called on at some excruciatingly early hour the next day by Policemen wanting to take her back to the place before she was properly dressed. She had to put a duffle coat on over her pyjamas. She knew he was not supposed to be there but now male looking, male clothes who knows.
My solution is not to stop trans people using toilets but to look at the design of toilets so separate spaces are available. M.F, for people with a disability, unisex perhaps.
And another. Walking into a woman's toilet in a dept store.. A woman in her under clothes while her two friends flapped her outer clothes/their coats to try and cool her being in the the throes of a hot flush.
As we knew this was a female only space we were able to help her preserve her dignity while recognising her distress. Lots of caring murmurs and a few wry comments.
Would this happen in a mixed sex toilet where adult males went? I don't think so.
Enforcing this ability for males to go to female toilets shrinks our female world immeasurably.
Shanreagh, may I ask if you've listened to Kim Hill's interview of PP and what you made of PP's claims that billionaires are, through their involvement with the trans movement, attempting to destroy the fabric of society, or words to that effect?
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018883114/anti-transgender-activist-on-stoush-around-her-entering-nz
You're deflecting. The quote you posted wasn't about PP, it was about the profoundly ignorant claim that men in women's toilets were not a threat to biological women.
Robert, would you mind letting us know that you have read and understood the replies to your quote and link, from Shanreagh, LB and myself?
Has someone looked into the possibility of Roberts account being hacked? He seems uncharacteristically troll like for several days now. Maybe someone guessed his email and started posting in his persona?
I'll look into it now. He's just not unreservedly supporting the transexclusioryfeministradicalTSwomen the way he should! He's so opaque and troll-like!
Emotional junior staffer
Just want to add another woman's voice to this issue.
I am a cis-gendered woman, who has used women's bathrooms her entire life. The idea that trans women pose a real risk to other women in bathrooms is fantasy.
"It appears, just as with the homophobia and racism that dictated who could access public spaces in the 20th century, that we are seeing a return to discrimination and control of public spaces dictated by fear that has its origins in prejudice and ignorance. That trans people’s access to their public spaces, and to use the bathroom, is up for ‘debate’ is a regressive step."
Shanreagh and Weka – do you see any similarity between the reasons you give for why trans women should not be allowed in women's bathrooms, and those given in the 20th century for why women of colour should not share the same bathroom as white women?
"This is not some abstract issue, it is a matter of immediate public safety for transgender people. All human beings need to be able to access public bathrooms, and those bathrooms need to be places of safety and security. Trans people by every measure are at the greatest risk of violence when made to use the wrong bathroom, and are the only group society considers it acceptable to deny the use of these public spaces at all."
The quotes above are from this article written by another woman: – https://www.gendergp.com/transgender-bathrooms-discrimination-2022/
Probably some of the females present can better comment than me. I don't think the issue is trans women per say. Its the change in societal convention to self id. There are unfortunately a significant number of males who will take advantage of self id to violate previously female only spaces. I wouldn't say they are likely actually transgender but if the standard is self id then who is to say.
There is not really a solution to this. Either you have some more preventative rules about how such people change how they are treated (like seeking permission from an employer to now use other bathrooms in a work place, which is how this presently works). Or if you go with self id then you need to accept that the transgender category includes all the male bad faith actors by construction.
Provision for women's single-sex spaces was not because of perceived differences in race, or sexual orientation. The discrimination applied to both race and sexual orientation was due to prejudice, not supported by data.
Single-sex provisions are because there are material, practical, privacy, dignity, fairness and safety reasons that returns value to all for such categories.
Safety is only one factor for the provision of single-sex spaces but since it is the one you focus on, let's address it:
1. Safeguarding is based on risk assessment statistics. That evidence provides the criteria for the best broad stroke categories that will significantly reduce the likelihood of harm for all users. In cases where users are in various states of undress or vulnerable, the provision category that provides the best outcomes is that of sex.
2. Therefore, the continuation of the benefit is reliant on maintaining single-sex spaces.
3. A compelling argument supported by robust evidence is required before single-sex provisions should be relinquished.
4. What kind of evidence should be part of the discussion?
a. Are men who identify as women included in current safeguarding statistics? (Yes.)
b. Is there evidence that men who identify as women pose a significantly lower risk than any other man? (No, statistically they hold the same risk factor. In fact, in terms of convictions, their risk for sexual offences is higher than men without gender identities)
c. Are they are higher degrees of risk if they continue to use the single-sex provision that they belong to? (There has never been any evidence put forward that this is the case, it is often an assumption that other men are unable to cope with a non-conforming male.)
d. If they are at higher degree or risk, is it higher than other vulnerable males? (ie. unaccompanied children, males with mobility issues, males impaired by substance abuse, homeless males, males with mental incapacity etc. I can think of many men who are vulnerable in ways that Alex Drummond from Stonewall is not, and they still respect the boundaries of single-sex provision)
e. That vulnerability – when it is finally evidenced and defined – still must be of such statistical significance that it outweighs the benefits (in terms of safeguarding only) of division by sex.
People within the transgender community are being treated equally to everyone else when they are expected to respect the social contract and boundaries of single-sex provisions.
They are not excluded in any way, because they are included with all others of their sex, in those single-sex provisions.
Yes. As mentioned provision divided by sex, delivers that to a high degree.
This is rhetoric unless it is supported by robust and impartially collected statistical data. Have you got any?
Not true. They can use the public space of their sex category without impediment.
"I’m struggling to see how these could be spaces providing opportunities for violation."
Of course you are.
"In February 2018 Katie Dolatowski filmed a 12-year-old-girl who was using the toilet in a female bathroom at a supermarket in Dunfermline. A month later, he sexually assaulted a 10-year-old girl in the women’s toilets at a supermarket in Kirkcaldy. He grabbed the terrified child by the face, forced her into a cubicle and ordered her to take off her clothes, threatening to stab her if she did not comply."
"Hannah Tubbs sexually assaulted a 10-year-old girl in the women’s bathroom of a California fast-food restaurant. He followed the child into the ladies’ toilet, grabbed her by the throat and forced her into a cubicle where he sexually assaulted her."
There are plenty more examples.
You did recognise the the quotation marks indicate that the statement was not mine?
You posted it Robert. Are you trying to suggest you didn't agree with it?