I had read the second, but not Dane Giraud's and it was a good article, clearly identifying the important issues, and summing up well:
That internal monologue I mentioned, convincing you that the abuse you see is somehow earned – that women wanting to voice concerns about their rights are asking for violence and intimidation – Well, you can start by canceling that transmission.
I don't believe the violence was "earned", but I believe it was easily foreseen.
No one, it seems, is pointing the finger at PP for the fractured skull, in the way fingers were pointed at the forestry industry for the slash-destruction.
NZ Govt was the one primarily at fault for allowing sport to dictate politics. We should have boycotted South Africa including with sport. Ces Blazey was the figurehead of the NZRFU that actually should have known better. NZ at large was at fault because of the notion that sport overrode good sense.
NZ Govt is primarily at fault here too for introducing this divisive Self ID/No Debate duo. Not allowing women to be heard, enacting possibly threatening to women measures.
‘That internal monologue I mentioned, convincing you that the abuse you see is somehow earned – that women wanting to voice concerns about their rights are asking for violence and intimidation – Well, you can start by canceling that transmission.”
Dane Giraud (link above)
Yes, because both self ID and the "Gay Conversion" legislation was draped in so many rainbow flags that everybody overlooked the additions of "gender" and "gender identity" which rendered them useful only to the gender ideologists.
Of the 6,609 submissions, 73% are against the changes with just 25% supportive of them!
The remaining 2% represent duplicated/ supplemental/ unclear submissions.
Of the 73% of submissions that are against the changes, 20% are either stated to support SUFW or appear to have been created using our submission builder.
So Robert does that mean that we simply can't have events such as Let Women Speak because the organisers should be aware there will be violence?
Maybe organisers could expect people not to be violent ? Maybe the organisers could also expect appropriate police action to prevent violence from occurring
At the end of the day, the only person responsible for punching an elderly woman in the face is the person who punched her, but what you're suggesting sounds like you're getting a little bit close towards some form of victim blaming?
Based on your logic (or the point you seem to be alluding to) it would be hard to see how we could have any public events which are about issues affecting society because these days it's pretty much a given that some idiotic, pathetic, weak, cowardly people will always show up looking for a little bullying action.
You are projecting your view into my words, MichaelP, and finding "victim blaming" where there is none. If I meant to claim that, I would have said, "It was her own fault!", which is not what I've said at all; don't feel bad though; several other commenters here have done exactly the same thing, one even suggesting that I claimed "she was asking for it", citing a short-skirt-wearing rape victim meme in her reply. This assumptive debating is making the issue very challenging for anyone other than the "pro-PP faction" to comment on the issue. I'd be wise to have not engaged at all, or at least to stop now, but feel there's a need for some poor fool, scapegoat person, to at least have a go at it 🙂
You say, "Based on your logic (or the point you seem to be alluding to)"
and therein lies the problem Incognito outlined yesterday; the keen-ness to attribute intention where there is none.
"Maybe organisers could expect people not to be violent ?"
Maybe. Organisers of public events where controversial figures are intending to speak "could" take extra care in the protection of vulnerable people, especially elderly people.
Try this thought experiment, MichaelP:
You are the sole organiser of a second PP event; same venue. You have seen what happened at the first. You understand the anxieties held by one particular community around PP. Do you give the event the go-ahead, welcoming all, including the vulnerable and the abusive, or do you tailor the event to the circumstances? Do you simply "expect people not to be violent"? and take no steps to ensure that is the case, for the sake of anyone vulnerable to harm?
Why? Because at least one Green Party MP incited it? Or because trans activists can't any longer be trusted to engage in this conversation peacefully? Or both?
You're the one who claimed you believe 'it was easily foreseen'. So tell me why you think that. Do you not trust trans activists to respond within the law? Or do you expect that a tweet by a prominent MP that she is 'so ready to fight Nazi's' might just have the effect of rarking people up?
So might is always right is that what you are saying?
So the women wanting to hear their own speaker were doubly jeopardised by
– the topic of the meeting not being flavour of the month (I mean women's rights, women's issues and free speech are so boring)
– not being able to defend their right to free speech by violence.
The meeting before this one was in Australia. NZ is not in Australia. We had an expectation that the Policing would be adequate and competent as it had been before at other protests in NZ.
I don't believe any one person was at fault, but some people didn't read the tealeaves, didn't act responsibly in the knowledge that strong protest was likely.
Which people? The thugs who turned up and hit the elderly lady? The thugs who grabbed a woman and hurled her to the ground? The thugs who punched an elderly man? Those people?
This reads like victim blaming. Women in the past have had to out up with this along with terms such as 'witch' and 'crone'.
The person with the fractured skull was exercising her right to stand waiting to attend an event with PP. This event was more or less gate crashed by the protestors who chanted, pulled the barricades down and then charged aggressively at the band rotunda.
The Let Women Speak event was not the interloper here. The interloper was the large number of protestors who felt that violence was justified so people, mainly women, could not exercise free speech. The fault clearly lies with this ill controlled crowd not PP or the Let Women Speak crowd.
Wood said:
" “It was also generally accepted by many parties before me that Ms Keen-Minshull’s views may well be potentially harmful to those communities, communities which are deserving of protection, being particularly vulnerable to harm and discrimination.”"
Clearly the politicians all round the world have bought the Job Lot '20 (untrue but possibly difficult to fact check) talking points on trans victimhood".
That's not the case, Cricklewood but I can see you believe it is.
Pro-Posse commenters here seem to hold very un-charitable, unkind views toward transgender people. Some of the language used has been violent, imo ("chop of his penis" etc.)
If I was a transgender person, or the parent of one, I'd feel anxious reading these threads. I can see why the community could have felt the same way on hearing of PP's impending visit.
Pro-Posse commenters here seem to hold very un-charitable, unkind views toward transgender people. Some of the language used has been violent, imo ("chop of his penis" etc.)
If your second sentence is linked to your first one (that the violent language has been used on TS) – then I'd really like you to link to this – so I can condemn it.
I don't recall this at all.
If it is not, then this is really, really misleading – and you should apologize.
I am charitably assuming that your reference to Posie is a typo.
I've not seen anything like that, care to provide a link to the comment/s you are refering to?
"Pro-Posse commenters here seem to hold very un-charitable, unkind views toward transgender people. Some of the language used has been violent, imo ("chop of his penis" etc.)"
weka – I read this today, perhaps in a link. I'm happy to sit in moderation till I get a chance to find it (still filming, the crew arrived just now and are planning today's programme of filming.).
weka, it's clear that my time here on TS is up; there's no way I can rise above the atmosphere that's developed here. Others have fled the coup, I suspect, and I can't see a way to extricate myself from the mess of pottage. Not that I want to either. The focus has become exclusionary. It puzzles me greatly, the change that has come over the team here. Where before, teasing out issues was acceptable, with this issue, only complete agreement with the (now) dominant narrative seems allowable. Despite believing that I am able to understand issues such as this one well, I am being repeatedly told that I am unable to see the truth and am in fact, inflaming the situation. I am so acutely reminded of The Stroppery and this is not a good memory for me 🙂
I haven't read all the comments in the past day, was doing other things yesterday. Which is unfortunate because you did bring something concrete yesterday with Frank's post and I have been wanting to respond but haven't had the time.
The impression I have is that you've been doing your usual commenting of asking questions and making statements to tease things out but not making clear arguments with back up. Many people here are have a lot of experience with this issue and a great deal of knowledge and will argue hard from that because of what is at stake especially for women. I suspect you haven't had this kind of push back here before and it can be intense.
The easiest way to deal with that ime, is to bring arguments that are thought through and that have clear back up at the time. People here respect that even where they disagree, because it gives them something to think about and respond to.
Sometimes it works just to take a break for a while. You will be welcome to come back if you do take a break. There are other things to be talked about too, the election, how the Greens are going, where the good cultural shifts are happening (and where they are blocked).
Hope all goes well with the filming, looking forward to that!
Perhaps, weka, you might post a retraction from me, saying, I may well be mistaken about that and read that comment in a link from here. I don't wish to assign violent language to any TS commenter.
thanks Robert, that’s all that’s needed 👍 What we find is that when people make controversial claims about what others on TS are saying, without linking, everything gets more agitated then it already was. You can understand that at this time, accuracy matters.
Fwiw, I can’t find that phrase in recent TS history (past few months)
It’s very crude, and very Germaine Greer. I don’t consider it violence against trans women who have surgery. In terms of TS I think about it alongside the arguments we’ve had here where men have said they have a right to have sex with a woman while she is asleep even after it’s been pointed out to them that it’s against the law. It’s finding that balance between robust debate and making the space good enough for more people to take part in that. I have no doubt that trans women avoid TS, but I know that women do as well.
Likewise I understand why many trans people felt anxious about KJK coming to NZ. And I understand the range of feelings that many women have in watching the mob attacking her and other women, and stopping NZ women from speaking at Let Women Speak.
None of this is going to go away, so we may we as well push on through and see if we can hash out the issues and come to something better.
I saw the words "have a right to have sex…" and thought oh here we go, some dickheads whining about not getting sex and giving men a bad name. Then I carried on reading to see that Men on here have stated it's ok or their right to have sex with a woman who is asleep??? OMFG!
Wow I missed that discussion. Unbelievable. That is trying to defend or justify rape for goodness sake.
Despicable viewpoints aside, how could anyone possibly enjoy having sex with someone who is asleep, assuming that the more obvious enjoyment your partner is having means the more enjoyment you're having??
Or am I just showing my age again….sigh.
Anyway, sorry to carry on an obviously older and by the sounds of it pretty offensive discussion I just saw the words and bristled…
it used to come up in the Assange debates, because some people were so keen to not have him charged they denied there were any problems with how he behaved to the two women.
Not that I want bring all that up again, but the salient point is that men objecting to rude, crude or harsh language about trans people in one of the biggest political debates in a generation need to understand the wider TS context for robust debate. If we’re arguing about sensitivity and who might be put off commenting. And, most of the GC comments about trans people specifically (rather than ideology) aren’t rude, crude or harsh.
It's a very difficult subject, I'm pretty much a full on libertarian when it comes to social issues but can understand why biological woman feel threatened when it comes to spaces like bathrooms etc a woman feeling that way doesn't make them a fascist, nazi or a terf.
Sadly the rhetoric has become increasingly heated to the point where seemingly some feel physical violence is justified based loosely on the its ok to punch a nazi.
Imo our media and politicians added to that with the language used in the lead up to the event.
I'm not sure how this ever gets resolved but the path things are going down now it seems resolution becomes increasingly difficult.
Thank-you Robert for your herculean effort to redress the balance over this vexed issue. It has been pretty one sided and most have chosen to stay well away from the subject. I don't blame them one little bit. It has not been a pleasant experience.
I recall a reference to the “chop off his penis” but it might have been within a link and not a direct quote from a commenter. Whatever, no-one should have even linked to anything containing language like that.
This "incomprehension/poor comprehension" meme that's thriving here is regrettable, imo.
It doesn't pay to imply that some people are stupid. It's useful to question whether believing the other guy is stupid is a heads-up to check ones own bias/blinkers, especially where some of those who appear to "one" as failing to comprehend have previously provided intelligent commentary on other issues.
Sorry Robert, I have read your comment a few times and I don’t know what you mean. Where is the incomprehension meme? Are you saying that I am implying that someone is stupid?
I was interested in why Anne thought that no-one should ever link to language like Greer used.
What it does say is that if you are a man and you chop off your penis it does not make you a women any more than the wolf dressing up & lying in Grandma's bed makes it Grandma.
I am finding the level of incomprehension worrying.
Distilled down to its starkest in this access to safe spaces for women it says:
Women don't have penises.
The clip from GG is very clearly written and typical GG. I loved her analogy about the long ears, liver spots and long brown coat and the spaniel. And having been exposed to GG for many years there will be a hint of self deprecation there as ageing females (and males) often have still growing longer ears and liver spots. It was laugh out loud to me. Laugh out loud because it is ridiculous.
And yet sadly this is the level of woo that women are supposed to believe uncritically.
It also is a sad commentary on the lengths that people will go, with bodily dysphoria issues. The administration of chemicals, often lifelong leading to sterility etc and the surgical moves that can lead to the after effects of surgery as well as from the procedures themselves.
"I am finding the level of incomprehension worrying."
Get a grip!
Pretty obvious I only recalled seeing the words with no recollection of where or the context. I merely confirmed to Robert I had seen it too because it was being questioned.
Well if you know GG, who has been around commenting on Women's Issues since the 1970s.
(she was the author of the Female Eunuch in 1970s)
then you will remember she has always called a spade a spade.
All she said was that a man cutting off his penis does not make him a woman. She did not say 'cut off yr dick or penis" She commented on her belief system and that is that despite such surgery it does not make him a woman.
I find this to be biologically correct and uncontroversial.
I don't have an issue with your explanation, but fear you have missed the point entirely.
I won't claim you have reading comprehension problems 🙂 but perhaps you might consider the possibility that for some "communities", similar in concept to the community of women being steadfastly defended/promoted/championed here, the community of men (there are still, I believe, men reading TS) who find the choice of phrase/words used by GG and repeated over and over here, disturbing. You women may not, some of us men, do.
What is the phrase Robert, you do not give it so how can I moderate the use if need be if I don't know the phrase you are offended by?
In the GG link the phrase & others is illustrated by ******.
I don't think I have ever seen an agreement from you that men cannot some how turn into women ie recognition of biology.
Your continuing silence means for me that I have to think that you imagine that this can be done, some how.
I usually use this word below unless another word or ***** is in a quote. I did briefly toy with the idea of 'no dicks in dunnies' as a slogan but man, woman, penis, vagina seem quite able to do the 'lifting' here.
Are these offensive? Which one/s should I not be using and what word/s should I replace them by…happy to use male gentitalia and female genitalia if that would be better than penis or vagina?
To be frank I am baffled by you seemingly not getting the issue. Not getting an issue of biology seems to me an issue of comprehension.
Have you read some of the posts by Tsmithfield or RedLogix. Were they helpful?
No one, it seems, is pointing the finger at PP for the fractured skull, in the way fingers were pointed at the forestry industry for the slash-destruction.
That seems to me a remarkably silly analogy.
The proximate cause of the slash destruction was a weather event (or a series of weather events). No one can expect the rain to exercise discretion.
The proximate cause of the fractured skull of the assaulted woman was one (or more) violent protester, egged on by a supporting group – and validated by supporters in positions of authority. All of whom should have known better, and are criminally liable. One can certainly expect protesters to act with human agency and refrain from outright violence.
This was not an 'accident' (someone pushed over in the crush, or tripping and falling) – it was outright deliberate assault.
I condemn those who engaged in violence, those who encouraged violence, and those who have continued to refrain from condemning the violent actions.
That has been my experience though I was not involved in frontline of the Springbok clashes though but I've been to sufficient to know that these were often rowdy affairs & marches up Queen St and along Lambton Quay would have had a fair few booing.
I was around in -81 Both sides in that episode of our history knew that there would be violence (knew there would be, not just thought there might be)
The protesters had their 'battle tactics' as did the police and pro tour supporters. Nobody was under any illusion which is why the frontlines of both sides wore helmets, body armour and carried weapons.
That's a whole different world away from holding an event called Let Women Speak and expecting protesters to be loud but not violent (a perfectly reasonable expectation IMO)
I don't know obviously but would guess that many of the women who were subjected to the violence at LWS all probably wouldn't have gone if they knew beforehand that there was going to be violence. Of course I could be wrong on that.
I guess some may have thought there would probably be violence and may have not ever been in a real life violent confrontation so may not have known quite how terrifying and unlike TV / the movies it actually is but that would be a small minority in my opinion.
Regardless of any of that the fault lies almost entirely with the perpetrators and I believe the police have to bare some responsibility also. If anything in New Zealand, anybody should e able to go to a protest with the assumption it will be peaceful.
What makes this really sinister (violence toward women aside) from my viewpoint is firstly that the violence seemed to probably be deliberate and targeted with a certain amount of pre planning or certainly forethought
Also the actions or lack thereof of the nz police which looks (again from my viewpoint) suspiciously like active or deliberate non engagement. What was the point of police even being there if they weren't going to do any policing?
Either that or the police were too scared to get involved (scared for their own physical safety and / or scared of possible public or ministerial backlash if they were to get physical) which if true would be disturbing in it's own right.
I don't believe the violence was "earned", but I believe it was easily foreseen.
Did you forsee it, Robert?
Perhaps you can link to your comments prior to the PP event/ TRA riot – telling us all that it would end in violence.
I certainly didn't.
I expected that there would be shouting and chanting, banner waving, and speeches, a counter protest (as we've seen many times in the past). An active, noisy, protest, making their point clear.
I expected that the Police would have a firm line between the two groups (also as we've seen in the past). And that there would be degree of pushing at the police line – but that common sense (on all sides) would prevail.
I expected that there would be lots of media coverage – of greater and less bias. And that some politicians, with natural constituencies in the TRA group, would be in attendance.
I did not expect that there would be virtually no police presence, and that when protesters breached the light barricades, they would then go on to violently assault people on the other side. And, I did not expect (though perhaps I should) that senior politicians would refrain from condemning this violence.
My expectation too. But we have a new style of policing now that we didn't know of beforehand.
I did not expect that there would be virtually no police presence, and that when protesters breached the light barricades, they would then go on to violently assault people on the other side. And, I did not expect (though perhaps I should) that senior politicians would refrain from condemning this violence.
And now we have people who would blame those who thought this was going to be protest of old, that 'we' should have known that there would be no police, that the protestors felt egged on and a moral right to be violent. Many protestors still would think they have/had the moral right to be violent I guess.
There has been no specific condemnation of the violence against KJM & those waiting to speak. Just some non specific wiffle waffle, everyones's a winner ooops protestor type stuff from PM Hipkins & complete disregard from Marama Davidson.
Shanreagh – you expected a significant police presence but didn't suspect there might be the potential for pushing and shoving, tomato sauce and worse?
No more than the dozens of other protests which have had a police presence. It used to be routine that, if there was a counter protest signalled (as it very clearly was in this instance), police would firmly keep the two groups apart.
We are not talking about pushing and shoving, or even juvenile stunts like throwing sauce. We're talking about deliberate and targeted violent assault.
So Robert you actually have not found this. Someone found the Germaine Greer post I had put up but she does not espouse what you said she did. So you were incorrect.
Was it predictable: that's my point. I believe many people predicted there would be heated behaviour at the event. Why you didn't think so, I can't say. If I'd been in an advisory position (I wasn't), I'd tell a frail person to stay away or at least, keep their distance. People in heated situations can act in unexpected ways, especially when inflamed by the words and actions of others, as well as expectations formed as the result of previous situations of the same sort (earlier rallies, events on the same grounds, meetings of "the same crew"
So, no you didn't predict it – but seem to now expect that 'others' should have done so.
Rather a double standard, don't you think?
Can you link to explict threats of violence from the TRA protestors made in advance of the PP event? Something that would have led ‘others’ to believe that the counter-protest would descend into violence?
Does it really matter where or how [the] violence started? The issue (i.e. Robert’s issue) is that it could, not should, be foreseen. In fact, there was a challenge in Court the day before the event that centred on the likely prospect of violence erupting.
A rainbow advocacy group says a self-styled women’s rights campaigner could push society over the precipice and incite transphobic violence if she is allowed entry into New Zealand.
The two main things I can see that affect whether the event should have been cancelled ahead of time or not are that 1) did KJK and the organisers reasonably expect the police to keep the peace and 2) the original security team pulled out at the last minute, was the replacement team up to speed?
1) yes
2) don’t know.
What happened in Hobart suggested that similar would happen here. There was discussion about this in feminist circles. I didn’t see anyone predicting the dangerous mobbing of KJK and her team, nor the violence of the kind witnessed (the punching of the elderly woman). The tomato juicing was predictable and within protest norms, the mobbing and elder assault wasn’t. It was shocking, a watershed moment for NZ and it wasn’t in any way KJK or her team’s fault or responsbility.
KJK says things in very strong terms, and much like Germaine Greer she says things in ways that shock some people. Has anyone yet explained why Greer’s or KJK’s speech should be suppressed by making an argument against specific speech beyond ‘I don’t like that, it’s offensive’?
There is an order of magnitude difference between what they say and do and what Nazis say and do.
and, I don’t think the court action beforehand was anything to do with TRA protestor actions. It was about whether KJK’s speech would incite violence against trans people. Not women.
I’m not even talking about whether it should have been cancelled or not – I would not assume to be able to judge this and neither did the actual High Court Judge. It is a moot point, anyway.
What I do feel more confident about is that the risk of political violence has increased in NZ in recent years, which is deplorable but not entirely surprising. One could point to certain events and/or developments, here or overseas, but nothing changes the fact. I’ve linked to this before: https://www.newsroom.co.nz/risk-of-political-violence-this-election-still-high-shaw. This is the context, the backdrop, which is highly relevant.
If one insists on talking specifically about the event that took place in Albert Park, I note that the one person who probably knew best what to expect of what could happen was also best prepared.
The bigger picture seems to be missed when and while people focus on a much much smaller picture even though they may consider it as some kind of symbolic or watershed moment – we seem to have those more frequently nowadays, just like record-breaking weather events …
Let’s hope this is not the new ‘normal’ but the signs are not good and it serves to take heed of [the] warnings.
Really? Your [sic] not stupid, so try not act stupid. Violence was signalled as a likely scenario in the Court case. Make of this what you will but don’t put words in other people’s mouths.
I'm pretty sure that the argument was that KJK was going to say some things and then poof (because supposed hate speech has magic powers) violence would manifest against members of the community. Now I think that's pretty ridiculous, obviously, but your talking about an argument made by someone asking she not be allowed into the country, to protect a community he's advocating for.
I really don't think he was making a prediction of what actually happened where most of the violence and intimidation was metered out by the counter protest.
Robert's argument was that the violence at the protest could have been predicted. And, therefore (paraphrasing) the PP event should not have gone ahead and/or 'vulnerable people' (cf the elderly lady assaulted') should have known not to attend.
I don't agree:
a) That there were specific threats of violence from the TRA against PP supporters (indeed, your own link shows their fears were the other way around; and were in general, rather than being specifically related to the PP event).
b) That there was a heightened degree of unpredictable violence which was unable to be managed by an (inexplicably absent) standard police presence. We are not talking here about the level of protest which resulted in the parliamentary occupation. This was a standard rally/counter-rally situation. The police are well-used to dealing with the security aspects of them. The most important being to keep the two sides apart.
c) That the threat of violence should ever shut down a legal rally and/or protest. Where is our freedom of speech if we accept 'thugs veto'? That is the slippery slope that I see all too many on the left sliding down.
In a style that has become typical of this pseudo-debate, you are reading way too much in a simple straightforward comment. Consequently, and consistently, you make unjustified assumptions and extrapolations and use these to steer the ‘debate’. And of course, you “don’t agree”, that goes without saying – trying to understand where others are coming from and meeting them somewhere in the middle of the debate has been discarded to make way for polarising arguing by polarised people that fuels further polarisation. Anybody who has not (yet) grazed some skin in this ongoing ‘debate’ can see this clearly.
Thank you, Incognito, for your reasoned and balanced response. The incidence of people "re-phrasing" the words of another then responding in accordance with their own interpretation, is disturbing and has, I'll bet, caused many commenters to steer clear of the topic. There's a Gish gallop, gaslight atmosphere around this joint at the present time. Others, I believe, feel this also.
To keep the pushing and shoving in check. To be on the alert for breaches of the peace that would disrupt a group of people who were lawfully exercising their rights to gather in a park to listen and share issues do with women's rights and issues.
And identify more subtle threats; inflammatory speeches, the arrival of opposing factions, unexpected events. They also have to bear in mind the influence of their own presence on some crowds. Keeping a low profile can be a strategy to maintain order, in some cases.
*I have no view about the police in this particular instance
The transactivists you mean? They were the ones protesting.
Most of those I respect/read have been condemning the violence used by the transactivists. I do too. The Police, belatedly, are looking at the issue and they hopefully will charge the ones breaching laws.
So if transactivists say that violence will occur, are they saying that it would be the PP event attending demographic that will be causing it? because looking at the demographic in Hobart, they would have been pushing it. Some quite old, in years, looking people attending and some speakers the same. Some of the supporters who filled in for the lacking police behind the women, were at least my age.
So where was this violence going to come from?
If not the PP people then from the transactivists?
So the argument is that it is Ok to threaten the ability of women to gather & to speak because some parts of our society do not want them to? or was it a recognition that the transactivists may have lost control of those who might be attending?
So in either case women miss out because others cannot control their own violence.
Odd view
Again it seems wrapped up in the view that because 'we' cannot control ourselves you should not do this or that
That seems very like the excuses for rape or domestic violence that were responses we often heard until we started listening/thinking about the meaning of them & whether they were victim blaming.
Nothing but a series of assumptive questions and conditional hypotheticals leading to an odd conclusion followed by, of course, more assumptions that are inaccurate, at best.
Ok I have been amazed that PP non attendance has let women see, in plain sight, those who have women's rights and women's issues tightly bound to their hearts and minds.
Don't you think that left wing women would also like left wing men to get it? After all this time, after all our thoughts and trying to carefully explain to get the points across over several years .
In this community, or micro-cosmos, that we call TS, I’d like to see building bridges and not burning bridges. One would think this would be easier (!) between politically like-minded people but almost the opposite seemed to be happening. Sometimes it helps to take a step back, a deep breath or two, and a good look at what’s happening and what we’re doing and ask ourselves if this is what we want. If the answer is “No” then we need to change and become the change we want to see here and/or elsewhere (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefigurative_politics) – we should not and cannot wait for others to act first. The choice is simple, the task/journey is not …
How are we to build bridges when our own Govt has brought in legislation that will allow males to have access to women's safe spaces? And our own PM does not know what a women is? (Thank you Sean Plunket)
Where does the bridge come from?
To me, a user, and sometimes a frightened user in any kind of toilet especially that is open to the public ie std public toilet, the line for me is males should not be in the safe spaces I am using. I am less uneasy in female only spaces in areas such as dept stores or picture theatres. I am most reluctant to use any unisex labelled spaces after experiencing these in two workplaces.
I reflected tonight that come June I will be required to share the female toilets at the Embassy theatre with males. How do I know they are trans if they look, sound and dress like males?
I class males as anyone with a penis, or whatever word is acceptable to RG, if penis is too harsh.
This may be all good with males. It is not all good with females and I shudder to think what elderly women with walkers or younger ones with children will feel. We just should not do these things to people.
Aspirations and intentions (good or bad), for example, are like that bloody tree in the forest. There is no proof of them, ever. No brain surgeon ever opened a skull and exclaimed ‘WTF! I found an aspiration!’
I used that Utopia/Eutopia quote for the second part; I should have emphasised it. Please don’t read anything [else] into it, because that was not my intention at all. You have to trust me on this because I cannot prove it to you 😉
That said, it is a fairly interesting article for a random find.
@incognito. I was not going to launch into new wave Eutopia etc…..but interesting.
Thank you.
Ps Just had a thought though, although a post mortem won’t find an intention or aspiration if you consider that a human being exists by their word/work outside their body you might find an aspiration there.
Actually I am an embroiderer/quilter/textile artist and the aspirations/intentions are often called UFOs or unfinished objects.
That wasn’t where i actually started out to go and may have blown my argument about aspirations being found extrinsically.
Robert I apologise in advance as I'm not Shanreagh and you addressed your comment to Shanreagh. (Hmm it's almost as if I deliberately avoided using a pronoun there)
But…. I have to add my 2 cents worth. I would expect a big police presence at any public event especially where a protest is involved. This doesn't automatically assume violence.
Surely for society / the public square to function at least somewhat well there has to be an assumption of being able to hold a public event whether controversial or not without including violence to be expected as part of that assumption?
@ Robert Guyton The trouble is you seem to be thinking that it is the women who wanted to listen to PP who should have left or not gone.
Those who should have left, once they had seen that there was violence afoot are those I called the transactivists. There were people from this group who were assaulting women making their way through the crowd or trying to find PP.
I don't think anyone from the transactivists group could have been unaware that the plan by some was to disrupt PP. Not just shout from a polite distance etc. And so with not policing around the band rotunda and at the barricades they took this opportunity.
Another "seem to be thinking": "The trouble is you seem to be thinking that it is the women who wanted to listen to PP who should have left or not gone."
People involved in the event; supportive attendees, antagonistic attendees, curious bystanders, political figures, controversial figures, organisers, police, security personnel, could have made all manner of choices. It was up to them. Many decisions made were poor, imo. I'm betting many women (such as yourself, I seem to recall) will have mulled over attending and decided not to go. Many people from the general public who are not women will have chosen to stay home. I wish, for the sake of her wellbeing, the woman who was hurt, had stayed home and again, for the sake of the woman who was hurt, PP had chosen a different way to convey her message.
The reason I was wavering/opting not to go, ie have my rights to free speech curtailed was because of the threats of violence and the hunch that police were going to ineffectively stand back as they did in Hobart. (I wrote/spoke to SUFW immediately after the Hobart episode to see what the Police had been saying.
I was wavering all the while between why the heck should a bunch of people who bear me & other women ill will try to stop me and then acceptance that there were people there bearing us ill will, I could not run as fast as in my youth etc.
What was also swaying me was, as I said, somehow I was still getting tweets from those involved in the parliamentary protest, many were involved in banners, food preparation, organising of loud noise-makers. I had been looking at these tweets all the way through the PP (it helped dispel 'the happy just making a point' protestors myth)
Some of the anti women comments were bordering on unhinged
I had also witnessed the demonstration against the Springbok tour outside the Parliament Gates in Molesworth st. A work colleague & I (waiting for our buses) saw police, bottling the protestors up against a hard police line at the intersection of Hill & Molesworth sts while guiding them away from Lambton Quay. Civic Square where PP was to speak although a wonderful town square space was ideal for protestors /police to bottle us up into an increasingly smaller space.
By Saturday morning I had resolved to look at the PP events in Auckland and make my mind up after that.
Again victim blaming Robert.
I wish, for the sake of her wellbeing, the woman who was hurt, had stayed home and again, for the sake of the woman who was hurt, PP had chosen a different way to convey her message.
You are continuing to miss the point that women should be free to attend such events and make our own judgements about the message. Women should not have to confine themselves to homes because of the fear of people exercising the thug's veto.
You will recall that when the SUFW tried to hire a Manawatu venue to let women know about the No Debate issue that they were taken to court with a highly organised and funded group of people while SUFW figuratively scurried round organising cake stalls. SUFW won the court case. The group had tried to say SUFW were a hate group.
I wish, for the sake of her wellbeing, the woman who was hurt, had stayed home and again, for the sake of the woman who was hurt, PP had chosen a different way to convey her message.
"Victim blaming" must mean something very different to you than it does to me, Shanreagh.
I'm NOT saying or implying that the victim of the violence at the PP meeting brought it on herself, which seems to be your interpretation. I'm saying I wish she hadn't been hurt at all. It's not her fault she was hurt. You believe, I think, that she should be free to go wherever she pleases, safely. So do I, but wise counsel can help prevent trouble. You did plenty of research before deciding not to attend. I wonder what you might have advised that woman, had she asked you beforehand?
If, upon reading my explanation here, you still see victim blaming, I'll have to fold on the issue, as I respect your judgement and sincerity.
Victim blaming is not being able to make the free choice to be there or if having made the free choice then something bad happens.
I wear a skirt walking along a street to my car at night. Apparently I am 'silly, unwise' to have done this. That is victim blaming.
I think we can safely say we disagree on what victim blaming is.
I have found that people sometimes victim blame because they wrap up two concepts into one. Not sure I can fully explain but here goes.
1 in the scheme of things should I be able to walk to my car along a street, being obviously female at night?
of course
2 facing the reality that it is an unequal world for women out there could I take some mitigation measure that might affect my risk?
of course there is that possibility that some thing you might lessen your risk.
3 Should these measures I take derogate from the premise that I should be able to walk freely in a street to my car at night without taking them
Of course not.
Re the woman. I am a competent researcher, I am retired and have time to research. I found the levle of agression mainly through fortuitous unexplored Twitter follows that I amassed before and during the parliamentary protest. She may not have had that available to her.
In fact the thing that would have swayed me & maybe the woman was that the Police were not going to be there, as of old, policing against breaches of the peace.
If they had been told it was going to be 10 security guards protecting the speaker and nobody else. people may have thought, I may not be able to protect myself against thugs if there is no policing.
My view is that had the police advised they were not going to be there then many may have decided it was too dangerous to go.
It would also been very explicit in showing how policing may work for some in crowds but not for all.
If you 'should not go' in the words of those who say they know best and then you do go and do that scenario.
You do go, something bad happens to you, the 'should not goes' pile in and say 'oh but you should not have gone', that is victim blaming. That is not blaming the society we live in, the people who walk the street making others feel unsafe, the lack of policing etc. It totally blames the victim
She should have investigated, should have worked off a hunch that the police were going to be a no show should have…she should have, should have ……
That is victim blaming.
As I said before we do have a different concept of victim blaming.
You don't get to be my age to see how it is often used against women, though it is getting better.
So now we don't allow defence lawyers to bring evidence of a woman being sexually active in rape trials, so blamed as she brought it on herself, many look beyond the facile 'oh she shouldn't have been walking home or to the car or anywhere'
So accepting there was free will, the woman went to the event, she was beaten up. The victim blamers then say 'oh but she shouldn't have made a decision exercising her free will with the best knowledge she had because…..because…because. But she did go . 'Oh yes but she shouldn't have, why did she go? And on it goes.
PS Hopefully you are better able than PM Hipkins at identifying what a woman is. He’s made NZ a laughing stock around the world. In a week or so of continual laughter and OMG from overseas commentators. It is sad.
Robert your questions, to me, are often fair from clear, you often don't respond when asked a question. I venture to suggest that the issue would have died down to a simmer had you not come along with your again, to me, opaque questions.
As you are often a quirky, polished and competent poster on here many of us have persisted with your questions as we thought it was a way of sharing knowledge. I was mistaken. The knowledge we have passed on has not been used as a spring board. It has been ignored. Meanwhile we have been asked to grapple with victim blaming statements as if they were of equal merit to other comments.
The Socratic type method only works when the questioner exhibits good faith and has a knowledge of the topic.
Was discussing this with some friends and interesting things were said in regards to 'what is keeping men out of the fight for women's rights'.
My two female friends were adamant as to their opinion on this matter and I pretty much feel the same They firmly believe that it is because in particular young men have grown up in an environment that doesn't encourage such action in any way, shape or form.
Young men in the last couple of decades have been told to shut up when it comes to anything to do with women. They are being told that women don't need men to protect them and further don't need men full stop.
They are told that to risk rejection and humiliation in trying to chat up a girl they fancy is akin to sexual assault. They are taught that masculinity is toxic and that women in our society are oppressed by males. They observe that nobody cares about how dangerously low boy's educational achievement is becoming as long as the girls are doing well….
The list could go on and on but you get my point. I can easily see how a confused young man could be afraid to speak up for women because he may get told off for being sexist or that women don't need his help, etc
Personally I can remember three specific occasions where I have stepped in to prevent violence against women the first time was in my teens (years ago…) at a party where I tried to prevent a girl being kicked and stomped on by a bunch of thugs I ended up being bottled and got a bit of a kicking but she was ok and was really appreciative of my help (no not like that get your mind out of the gutter) on the second occasion I stopped a guy beating up his girlfriend outside our local and spent a night in the cells for my troubles (but no charges were laid and I was released the next morning)
On the third occasion the girl I was trying to help ended up jumping on me and started hitting me as well as her violent partner having a go at me ! I managed to escape fairly easily and left them to it.
I found out later that this is bizarrely quite a common thing where the woman being attacked ends up attacking the guy harming her boyfriend. I'm guessing there's probably underlying psychological and / ot logical reasons for this maybe?
Regardless, these bad experiences haven't deterred me and there have been a number of other episodes. I will still intercede if I see a man attacking or hitting a woman. That's how I was bought up and was the way my group of friends all thought as well. In fact I try and stop any violence from occurring nowadays whether the victim is a woman or a man. Funnily enough working on the door at a nightclub has also moulded this 'need' to become involved.
I must emphasise that my involvement has always been with the intent to stop the violence or at least to protect the victim and I've become pretty good at it over the years finding that the majority of the time, people can be talked down as long as they haven't had really excessive amounts of alcohol.
Anyway, I would assume also that fear will prevent many men from getting involved especially in modern times where men never learn nor are taught how to fight or how to project their physicality because 'toxic masculinity'. So when confronted with physical violence they are simply to fearful to do anything which is a perfectly normal reaction.
Anyway, just a few thoughts on the topic. Nothing too dinosaur like I hope!
'About Sall Grover: Sall Grover is the founder & CEO of Giggle, a female-only social networking app. Prior to the launch of the platform, trans activists “cancelled” it, labelling it “transphobic” because it is only for biological women. Sall advocates for womens sex based rights to female spaces & sport, and highlights the conflicts between gender ideology and reality.'
Neil "Music is woke. Not being racist is woke. Genders are woke. Sprouts are woke. Football is woke. TV is woke. Wood is woke. Chips are woke. Woke is woke. WOKE, WOKE and more WOKE…" Oliver?
The once respectable TV presenter who had a mid life crisis, re-emerging looking like a two dollar shop Charles Manson? That Neil Oliver?
This unhinged fucking idiot Neil Oliver? Jesus spare me.
More to the point, a 2022 list of jailed journalists throughout the world , compiled by The Committee to Protect Journalists, does not include the name of one Julian Assange
It will be the first time the Wikileaks founder has accepted a consular visit since November 2019, and the first time a high commissioner has met with the Australian behind bars.
"Shortly after I arrived here, his father approached me requesting that I visit Mr Assange," Mr Smith told SBS News.
"Through his lawyers, Mr Assange agreed to that visit and I welcome that very much.
"We have made, before my arrival, over 40 offers to provide consular assistance, none of which he has taken up. That's not said critically, that's just a fact, but I’m very pleased he has agreed to my request to see him."
Exactly, it wasn't as if the Australian government was ever doing their utmost to support Assange, or challenge the US decision to prosecute him .I'm not surprised Assange had no great confidence in the high commissioner.
not much discussion I can find about the muppet show with special guest leader chris luxon, whoops, I mean the national partys policy announcement about electrifying the economy. It's certainly good to see them actually release some policy, even it's a continuation of "what the other guy said". And I guess it's good to see National actually having something to try and address climate change, rather than just "continue with what the last guy did but do nothing else". One wonders if they will have the gonads to face down the likes of ground swell and tell them no more kicking the can down the road, or whether we will see the same national party of the past 20 years. Accept He Waka Eke Noa and get on with implementing it, accepting that it is only a start and much more still remains to be done
Expect a National Party of old if they have their way. What'll be new is a huge purge of Labour Party policy and legislation. Usually an incoming National Party is a continuation of Labour initiatives with a few minor changes as you have pointed out.
But it's not really about National. It's about ACT. ACT has promised it won't be business as usual for those pompous Tories if they are to enter into coalition. I believe them!
As for the ''muppet show'', that moniker belongs to Labour. They have pissed away a massive come back after Jacinda had the good sense to bugger off and let Chippy take over. A few weeks ago Labour had parity with National. Regardless of what the polls show, and barring Luxon being arrested for drug trafficking, Labour are gone at the next election. Robbo has basically said there won't be any more personal goodies in the upcoming budget for supporters.
My question is ''Why does National want to win the election? Have they a death wish? This country is in terminal decline and neither major party will be able to fix it. If I was Luxon l'd play golf and leave the hard stuff for Chippy. Unfortunately politics doesn't work that way. Everyone believes they have the answers
There was a guest on RNZ The Panel on Friday – Professor Ralph Simms – who pretty much indicated most of the ideas in Nationals new policy especially re consents are already in process. So as per nothing new, mostly hot air.
Here's an interesting local military technology that even NZ can afford – a good way to beat the entry costs of bringing our military up to speed with evolving drone warfare – Ozzie built cardboard drones.
The average lifespan of a reconnaissance drone in the Ukraine is apparently four sorties, so these cardboard drones – delivered in their hundreds in flat packs – make perfect sense. And of course, loitering munitions (AKA kamikaze drones) go on one way missions.
I have followed this astonishing rebuild right form the outset about five years ago. What the team have done is a real insight into how our forefathers tackled work like this; how challenging it was and how smart and tough they were in dealing with the limitations of the materials they had to hand.
While the prank is obvious in hindsight, they managed to lead many people deep into the hoax before the penny dropped. If they were like me they were sus that something wasn't right – but it was so well executed I have to say I was taken in.
At least up to the point where the chainsaw came out.
As for the calking – oakum was an option, but apparently cotton suits this purpose better. I’m not sure why. You should have seen them doing the hull – that was way more massive.
'She said: “Just because you lop off your d**k and then wear a dress doesn't make you a ******* woman. I’ve asked my doctor to give me long ears and liver spots and I’m going to wear a brown coat but that won’t turn me into a ******* cocker spaniel.\
Many of the younger ones troubled by concerns over how they present to the world may not be adequately recognised or cared for under our current health or mental health initiatives. At this age group (teens) there is an almost over whelming peer preference for receiving information.
What really worries me though is the pre teens, pre puberty where the sole access to information may be through Mum or Dad who might be concerned about their tomboy daughter or gentle souled arty boy. These are ghastly stereotypes….I can hardly bear to think that people would still be concerned by them.
I have not read very much but there are concerns about the competency of some of the gate-keeping and consent-obtaining practices in organisations running transition clinics.
As far as the other end is concerned Autogynephilia*, this has a later onset, apparently. Many of these paraphilias are non threatening to others. This one though to me has the potential to be a bit more than bothersome in the current climate when perhaps the apogee is to dress plus try to use female spaces…..much to the concern of the women there who can mostly usually tell that there is male present. Women have great concerns about any male being in these spaces.
Perhaps those who push the boundaries (being a nuisance or sexually misbehaving) there may need psychiatric treatment.
The point though is most women do not want all these experiments going on in their safe spaces, we don't need things to actually go wrong before we recognise that they are wrong.
*is defined as a male's propensity to be sexually aroused by the thought of himself as a female. It is the paraphilia that is theorized to underlie transvestism and some forms of male-to-female (MtF) transsexualism.
Really sad (well at least sad to me) story here – which may illustrate the pressures teens are under.
I have a friend who has a 15-year-old daughter. Lovely kid. A bit quirky. Some neurodiversity.
Badly bullied at school (difference is targeted like sharks after blood) – mostly by girls. [The unwillingness of schools to deal with bullying effectively has a heck of a lot to do with adolescent anxiety IMO]
I'd say probably lesbian – but struggling with emerging sexuality (as many of us have in our teen years). [And, being sexually attracted to the people who are bullying you, is a deeply confusing experience]
Highly supportive socially left-wing family.
No support from the state system in or out of school. Bullying not dealt with. No mental health support. No counselling. Zip.
Comes 'out' as transgender. New gender, new name, new identity. Suddenly, support is coming out of the woodwork! Bullying at school is firmly stamped on. Counselling is offered. Mental health is supported.
Now, I'm not suggesting she's lying. But for a kid who is confused and experimenting with sexuality – transgender has offered a heck of a lot more social validation and psychological support, than lesbianism did.
Maybe it depends where you are and how panicked the school is.
I have family working in this bullying/sexual preference/trans-gender space and frankly they have zero interest in differentiating between the differences or steering anyone in any direction.
They just help try and resolve the bullying and make the place safe for the student or employee.
Some schools and workplaces have no gay people at their school or workplace and therefore require no help – they are pretty quick to ask for help if someone is trans-gender – that is too difficult for them to cope with. It may not be that help wasn't available previously it may be that the school didn't see an issue (and I don't see why students should have to state their sexual preference to get help for bullying anyway – it isn't any of the schools damn business) but now it is panic britches.
In this case, the only thing that changed about the student and their needs, was the transgender element.
The student and family had been begging the school for help with the bullying issue for at least 2 years. No action. When he becomes transgender, it's suddenly a priority for the school to deal with…..
Perhaps we're talking past each other – but the help wasn't available to her previously. Despite the desperate attempts of her parents.
It might have been in theory, but in practice, …. zip.
But now, he has:
Bullying being addressed in school.
Mental health appointments 'magically' becoming available through the public health system (and I *know* how much pressure those staff are under, and what the wait lists are like)
“• Kelly-Jay Keen has fulminated against school-girls wearing burkas as “Not British”
• She has tried to whip up Islamophobia in Bradford, where fascism is rife.
• She has publicly praised Tommy Robinson, clearly an English fascist.
• And most recently when open fascists have supported her, Kelly-Jay Keen has refused to reject that support, for example at her Melbourne event.”
Curious claims, if true.
"The argument for transgender women threatening women’s rights is difficult to comprehend. It appears to rest on threatening biological women in their space in public toilets. Now as a cis male (I don’t like that term) I’m unfamiliar with women’s toilets. However, I assume that they are the same as male toilets minus a urinal.
That is, one enters, goes into a small cubicle, does one’s business, comes out, washes ones hands (hopefully) and then departs. The common toilet space is not designed to want users to stay. There is no market for a barista to be inside selling coffee. Unless I’m missing something, I’m struggling to see how these could be spaces providing opportunities for violation.
While this logic appears absurd, the underlying premise is horrible. That is, the dishonest, unsubstantiated and bigoted accusation that trans women are inherently aggressive. Hasn’t that been said about others before!"
Remember, under self-ID law, trans-women need to simply declare they are women. This has thrown the door wide open to sexual predators (that is men who like to sexually assault women and girls) – to camouflage themselves as 'trans-women' in order to do so in spaces which used to be women only.
There is case, after case, after case, in jurisdictions which have enacted the self-ID law.
That quote is a really good reason for why men need to listen to women more, and in this case, gender critical women.
Women are not men minus something. I know he didn't say that, but it was close. Women's toilets aren't the same as men's minus urinals. We have different bodies and different social experiences. That's the whole frigging point.
A non-comprehensive list of things that women do in toilets which mean we require female only spaces.
the usual peeing and pooing.
managing menstruation: changing tampons or pads, cleaning a menstrual cup, washing clothing with blood on it, resting, waiting out pain, vomiting.
miscarrying babies (yes, there's been whole twitter conversations about this where women have shared that the place they ended up having their miscarriage was a public toilet and how important it as to be in a female space).
changing clothing.
talking with other women.
the energy of male free space.
I get that many men won't understand why any of that matters, but support for women shouldn't be dependent upon that. We have a right to our own culture, spaces and rights simply because we exist.
There are most definitely safety issues. From males, be they men or TW. Self ID means that any man can say they are a woman at any time and this is to be accepted and supported. There's no evidence to suggest that TIMs don't have the same patterns of male violence that other men do. No-one is saying that TW are inherently violent, any more than we are saying that men are inherently violence. Women cannot predict in advance which males will be violent or intrusive, hence we have female only spaces.
There's a whole genre of porn based on women's toilets. There's an increase in the UK in men filming women in women's toilets and changing rooms. Teen girls are being harassed in gender neutral spaces. TIMs are masturbating in women's spaces and posting this online
Waiting with the door open, talking while a littlie goes wees or poos complete with the encouraging sounds we make or talk while said child goes to the toilet. On completion checking child, wiping child, arranging child's clothes, holding child, and semi closing the door while you yourself may go to the loo.
Same with elderly women, they may have a walker, a prolapse, continence issues, they may be in a rush.
So while they may go in a toilet with the door shut, often you are there outside, especially if continence pads or pants need changing. So helping them with these, helping to arrange clothes, may be outside of the confines of the cubicle.
So if someone has a walker it can be awkward, my mother felt she did not want to go to the disabled toilet as she felt these needed to be kept free for those with a real need while we/she managed with grace, chat (with other women) etc in the regular women's toilets.
Some women's toilets have the baby change table there. Some mothers do not want adult males there because of perving or surreptitious photographing of their babies. Some more spacious toilets/restrooms may have a separated lounge area (some department stores have these) where women may like to use the quiet space to breastfeed a baby. Again not an area they want males in.
The whole area of female grooming. updating makeup. some I have seen doing a complete makeup and clothes change after work ready to go out. Right down to day time makeup removal, cleansing etc & then new makeup together with tweezers and eyelash curlers. Sometimes the clothes are changed out in the open ie not in a cubicle if these are crowded, women help others do up zips etc.
In my more regular socialising days I have been a guard to an unknown woman who had rushed to the loo to get away from a man. She described him and I scouted around outside to make sure he had gone before leaving with her to go back to the bar.
I have been part of a group helping an unknown woman who had either had a drink spiked with vodka or drugs. She made a rush for the toilets. Women are can be at their most vulnerable to assaults when this happens to them. Several of us stayed with her, calmed her while others alerted the female bar staff. some stayed with her until she was past the worst of her drugged state.
A female flatmate was assaulted in a public toilet, beaten by a man who was in there before she could get her wits about her and run away. Then, as it was before the days of assigning a victim support person she was called on at some excruciatingly early hour the next day by Policemen wanting to take her back to the place before she was properly dressed. She had to put a duffle coat on over her pyjamas. She knew he was not supposed to be there but now male looking, male clothes who knows.
My solution is not to stop trans people using toilets but to look at the design of toilets so separate spaces are available. M.F, for people with a disability, unisex perhaps.
And another. Walking into a woman's toilet in a dept store.. A woman in her under clothes while her two friends flapped her outer clothes/their coats to try and cool her being in the the throes of a hot flush.
As we knew this was a female only space we were able to help her preserve her dignity while recognising her distress. Lots of caring murmurs and a few wry comments.
Would this happen in a mixed sex toilet where adult males went? I don't think so.
Enforcing this ability for males to go to female toilets shrinks our female world immeasurably.
Shanreagh, may I ask if you've listened to Kim Hill's interview of PP and what you made of PP's claims that billionaires are, through their involvement with the trans movement, attempting to destroy the fabric of society, or words to that effect?
You're deflecting. The quote you posted wasn't about PP, it was about the profoundly ignorant claim that men in women's toilets were not a threat to biological women.
Has someone looked into the possibility of Roberts account being hacked? He seems uncharacteristically troll like for several days now. Maybe someone guessed his email and started posting in his persona?
I'll look into it now. He's just not unreservedly supporting the transexclusioryfeministradicalTSwomen the way he should! He's so opaque and troll-like!
Just want to add another woman's voice to this issue.
I am a cis-gendered woman, who has used women's bathrooms her entire life. The idea that trans women pose a real risk to other women in bathrooms is fantasy.
"It appears, just as with the homophobia and racism that dictated who could access public spaces in the 20th century, that we are seeing a return to discrimination and control of public spaces dictated by fear that has its origins in prejudice and ignorance. That trans people’s access to their public spaces, and to use the bathroom, is up for ‘debate’ is a regressive step."
Shanreagh and Weka – do you see any similarity between the reasons you give for why trans women should not be allowed in women's bathrooms, and those given in the 20th century for why women of colour should not share the same bathroom as white women?
"This is not some abstract issue, it is a matter of immediate public safety for transgender people. All human beings need to be able to access public bathrooms, and those bathrooms need to be places of safety and security. Trans people by every measure are at the greatest risk of violence when made to use the wrong bathroom, and are the only group society considers it acceptable to deny the use of these public spaces at all."
Probably some of the females present can better comment than me. I don't think the issue is trans women per say. Its the change in societal convention to self id. There are unfortunately a significant number of males who will take advantage of self id to violate previously female only spaces. I wouldn't say they are likely actually transgender but if the standard is self id then who is to say.
There is not really a solution to this. Either you have some more preventative rules about how such people change how they are treated (like seeking permission from an employer to now use other bathrooms in a work place, which is how this presently works). Or if you go with self id then you need to accept that the transgender category includes all the male bad faith actors by construction.
""It appears, just as with the homophobia and racism that dictated who could access public spaces in the 20th century, that we are seeing a return to discrimination and control of public spaces dictated by fear that has its origins in prejudice and ignorance. That trans people’s access to their public spaces, and to use the bathroom, is up for ‘debate’ is a regressive step.""
Provision for women's single-sex spaces was not because of perceived differences in race, or sexual orientation. The discrimination applied to both race and sexual orientation was due to prejudice, not supported by data.
Single-sex provisions are because there are material, practical, privacy, dignity, fairness and safety reasons that returns value to all for such categories.
Safety is only one factor for the provision of single-sex spaces but since it is the one you focus on, let's address it:
1. Safeguarding is based on risk assessment statistics. That evidence provides the criteria for the best broad stroke categories that will significantly reduce the likelihood of harm for all users. In cases where users are in various states of undress or vulnerable, the provision category that provides the best outcomes is that of sex.
2. Therefore, the continuation of the benefit is reliant on maintaining single-sex spaces.
3. A compelling argument supported by robust evidence is required before single-sex provisions should be relinquished.
4. What kind of evidence should be part of the discussion?
a. Are men who identify as women included in current safeguarding statistics? (Yes.)
b. Is there evidence that men who identify as women pose a significantly lower risk than any other man? (No, statistically they hold the same risk factor. In fact, in terms of convictions, their risk for sexual offences is higher than men without gender identities)
c. Are they are higher degrees of risk if they continue to use the single-sex provision that they belong to? (There has never been any evidence put forward that this is the case, it is often an assumption that other men are unable to cope with a non-conforming male.)
d. If they are at higher degree or risk, is it higher than other vulnerable males? (ie. unaccompanied children, males with mobility issues, males impaired by substance abuse, homeless males, males with mental incapacity etc. I can think of many men who are vulnerable in ways that Alex Drummond from Stonewall is not, and they still respect the boundaries of single-sex provision)
e. That vulnerability – when it is finally evidenced and defined – still must be of such statistical significance that it outweighs the benefits (in terms of safeguarding only) of division by sex.
People within the transgender community are being treated equally to everyone else when they are expected to respect the social contract and boundaries of single-sex provisions.
They are not excluded in any way, because they are included with all others of their sex, in those single-sex provisions.
"All human beings need to be able to access public bathrooms, and those bathrooms need to be places of safety and security. "
Yes. As mentioned provision divided by sex, delivers that to a high degree.
Trans people by every measure are at the greatest risk of violence when made to use the wrong bathroom,
This is rhetoric unless it is supported by robust and impartially collected statistical data. Have you got any?
and are the only group society considers it acceptable to deny the use of these public spaces at all"
Not true. They can use the public space of their sex category without impediment.
New Zealand is again having to reconcile conflicting pressures from its military and its trade interests. Should we join Pillar Two of AUKUS and risk compromising our markets in China? For a century after New Zealand was founded in 1840, its external security arrangements and external economics arrangements were aligned. ...
The ‘50 Shades of Green’ farmers’ protest in 2019 was heavy on climate change denial, but five years on, scepticism and criticism about the idea that pine forests can save us is growing across the board. File photo: Lynn GrievesonTL;DR: Here’s the top six news items of note in climate ...
This morning the sky was bright.The birds, in their usual joyous bliss. Nature doesn’t seem to feel the heat of what might angst humans.Their calls are clear and beautiful.Just some random thoughts:MāoriPaul Goldsmith has announced his government will roll back the judiciary’s rulings on Māori Customary Marine Title, which recognises ...
In 2003, the Court of Appeal delivered its decision in Ngati Apa v Attorney-General, ruling that Māori customary title over the foreshore and seabed had not been universally extinguished, and that the Māori Land Court could determine claims and confirm title if the facts supported it. This kicked off the ...
Earlier this week at Parliament, Labour leader Chris Hipkins was applauded for saying that the response to the final report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care had to be “bigger than politics.” True, but the fine words, apologies and “we hear you” messages will soon ring ...
TL;DR: In news breaking this morning:The Ministry of Education is cutting $2 billion from its school building programme so the National-ACT-NZ First Coalition Government has enough money to deliver tax cuts; The Government has quietly lowered its child poverty reduction targets to make them easier to achieve;Te Whatu Ora-Health NZ’s ...
Kia ora. These are some stories that caught our eye this week – as always, feel free to share yours in the comments. Our header image this week (via Eke Panuku) shows the planned upgrade for the Karanga Plaza Tidal Swimming Steps. The week in Greater Auckland On ...
1. What's not to love about the way the Harris campaign is turning things around?a. Nothingb. Love all of itc. God what a reliefd. Not that it will be by any means easye. All of the above 2. Documents released by the Ministry of Health show Associate Health Minister Casey ...
Trust in me in all you doHave the faith I have in youLove will see us through, if only you trust in meWhy don't you, you trust me?In a week that saw the release of the 3,000 page Abuse in Care report Christopher Luxon was being asked about Boot Camps. ...
TL;DR: The podcast above of the weekly ‘hoon’ webinar for paying subscribers last night features co-hosts and talking about the Royal Commission Inquiry into Abuse in Carereport released this week, and with:The Kākā’s climate correspondent on a UN push to not recognise carbon offset markets and ...
TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Friday, July 26, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:Transport: Simeon Brown announced$802.9 million in funding for 18 new trains on the Wairarapa and Manawatū rail lines, which ...
The northern expressway extension from Warkworth to Whangarei is likely to require radical changes to legislation if it is going to be built within the foreseeable future. The Government’s powers to purchase land, the planning process and current restrictions on road tolling are all going to need to be changed ...
Text within this block will maintain its original spacing when publishedFirst they came for the doctors But I was confused by the numbers and costs So I didn't speak up Then they came for our police and nurses And I didn't think we could afford those costs anyway So I ...
Photo by Joshua J. Cotten on UnsplashWe’re back again after our mid-winter break. We’re still with the ‘new’ day of the week (Thursday rather than Friday) when we have our ‘hoon’ webinar with paying subscribers to The Kākā for an hour at 5 pm.Jump on this link on YouTube Livestream ...
Notes: This is a free article. Abuse in Care themes are mentioned. Video is at the bottom.BackgroundYesterday’s report into Abuse in Care revealed that at least 1 in 3 of all who went through state and faith based care were abused - often horrifically. At least, because not all survivors ...
Luxon speaks in Parliament yesterday about the Abuse in Care report. Photo: Hagen Hopkins/Getty ImagesTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy today are:PM Christopher Luxon said yesterday in tabling the Abuse in Carereport in Parliament he wanted to ‘do the ...
About a decade ago I worked with a bloke called Steve. He was the grizzled veteran coder, a few years older than me, who knew where the bodies were buried - code wise. Despite his best efforts to be approachable and friendly he could be kind of gruff, through to ...
Some of the recent announcements from the government have reminded us of posts we’ve written in the past. Here’s one from early 2020. There were plenty of reactions to the government’s infrastructure announcement a few weeks ago which saw them fund a bunch of big roading projects. One of ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:00 am on Thursday, July 25 are:News: Why Electric Kiwi is closing to new customers - and why it matters RNZ’s Susan EdmundsScoop: Government drops ...
Hi,I felt a small wet tongue snaking through one of the holes in my Crocs. It explored my big toe, darting down one side, then the other. “He’s looking for some toe cheese,” said the woman next to me, words that still haunt me to this day.Growing up in New ...
Yesterday I happily quoted the Prime Minister without fact-checking him and sure enough, it turns out his numbers were all to hell. It’s not four kg of Royal Commission report, it’s fourteen.My friend and one-time colleague-in-comms Hazel Phillips gently alerted me to my error almost as soon as I’d hit ...
TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Thursday, July 25, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day were:The Abuse in Care Royal Commission of Inquirypublished its final report yesterday.PM Christopher Luxon and The Minister responsible for ...
The Official Information Act has always been a battle between requesters seeking information, and governments seeking to control it. Information is power, so Ministers and government agencies want to manage what is released and when, for their own convenience, and legality and democracy be damned. Their most recent tactic for ...
TL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy today are:Transport and Energy Minister Simeon Brown is accelerating plans to spend at least $10 billion through Public Private Partnerships (PPPs) to extend State Highway One as a four-lane ‘Expressway’ from Warkworth to Whangarei ...
I live my life (woo-ooh-ooh)With no control in my destinyYea-yeah, yea-yeah (woo-ooh-ooh)I can bleed when I want to bleedSo come on, come on (woo-ooh-ooh)You can bleed when you want to bleedYea-yeah, come on (woo-ooh-ooh)Everybody bleed when they want to bleedCome on and bleedGovernments face tough challenges. Selling unpopular decisions to ...
Please note:To skip directly to the- parliamentary footage in the video, scroll to 1:21 To skip to audio please click on the headphone iconon the left hand side of the screenThis video / audio section is under development. ...
Given the crackdown on wasteful government spending, it behooves me to point to a high profile example of spending by the Luxon government that looks like a big, fat waste of time and money. I’m talking about the deployment of NZDF personnel to support the US-led coalition in the Red ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:40 am on Wednesday, July 24 are:Deep Dive: Chipping away at the housing crisis, including my comments RNZ/Newsroom’s The DetailNews: Government softens on asset sales, ...
As I reported about the city centre, Auckland’s rail network is also going through a difficult and disruptive period which is rapidly approaching a culmination, this will result in a significant upgrade to the whole network. Hallelujah. Also like the city centre this is an upgrade predicated on the City ...
Today, a 4 kilogram report will be delivered to Parliament. We know this is what the report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in State and Faith-based Care weighs, because our Prime Minister told us so.Some reporter had blindsided him by asking a question about something done by ...
TL;DR: As of 7:00 am on Wednesday, July 24, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:Beehive:Transport Minister Simeon Brownannounced plans to use PPPs to fund, build and run a four-lane expressway between Auckland ...
NewstalkZB host Mike Hosking, who can usually be relied on to give Prime Minister Christopher Luxon an easy run, did not do so yesterday when he interviewed him about the HealthNZ deficit. Luxon is trying to use a deficit reported last year by HealthNZ as yet another example of the ...
Back in January a StatsNZ employee gave a speech at Rātana on behalf of tangata whenua in which he insulted and criticised the government. The speech clearly violated the principle of a neutral public service, and StatsNZ started an investigation. Part of that was getting an external consultant to examine ...
Renting for life: Shared ownership initiatives are unlikely to slow the slide in home ownership by much. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy today are:A Deloittereport for Westpac has projected Aotearoa’s home-ownership rate will ...
You're broken down and tiredOf living life on a merry go roundAnd you can't find the fighterBut I see it in you so we gonna walk it outAnd move mountainsWe gonna walk it outAnd move mountainsAnd I'll rise upI'll rise like the dayI'll rise upI'll rise unafraidI'll rise upAnd I'll ...
There’s been a change in Myers Park. Down the steps from St. Kevin’s Arcade, past the grassy slopes, the children’s playground, the benches and that goat statue, there has been a transformation. The underpass for Mayoral Drive has gone from a barren, grey, concrete tunnel, to a place that thrums ...
This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections Global society may have finally slammed on the brakes for climate-warming pollution released by human fossil fuel combustion. According to the Carbon Monitor Project, the total global climate pollution released between February and May 2024 declined slightly from the amount released during the same ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:00 am on Tuesday, July 23 are:Deep Dive: Penlink: where tolling rhetoric meets reality BusinessDesk-$$$’sOliver LewisScoop:Te Pūkenga plans for regional polytechs leak out ...
TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Tuesday, July 23, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:Health: Shane Reti announcedthe Board of Te Whatu Ora-Health New Zealand was being replaced with Commissioner Lester Levy ...
Health NZ warned the Government at the end of March that it was running over Budget. But the reasons it gave were very different to those offered by the Prime Minister yesterday. Prime Minister Christopher Luxon blamed the “botched merger” of the 20 District Health Boards (DHBs) to create Health ...
Long ReadKey Summary: Although National increased the health budget by $1.4 billion in May, they used an old funding model to project health system costs, and never bothered to update their pre-election numbers. They were told during the Health Select Committees earlier in the year their budget amount was deficient, ...
As a momentous, historic weekend in US politics unfolded, analysts and commentators grasped for precedents and comparisons to help explain the significance and power of the choice Joe Biden had made. The 46th president had swept the Democratic party’s primaries but just over 100 days from the election had chosen ...
TL;DR: I’m casting around for new ideas and ways of thinking about Aotearoa’s political economy to find a few solutions to our cascading and self-reinforcing housing, poverty and climate crises.Associate Professor runs an online masters degree in the economics of sustainability at Torrens University in Australia and is organising ...
The Finance and Expenditure Committee has reported back on National's Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill. The bill sets up water for privatisation, and was introduced under urgency, then rammed through select committee with no time even for local councils to make a proper submission. Naturally, national's select committee ...
Some years ago, I bought a book at Dunedin’s Regent Booksale for $1.50. As one does. Vandrad the Viking (1898), by J. Storer Clouston, is an obscure book these days – I cannot find a proper online review – but soon it was sitting on my shelf, gathering dust alongside ...
History is not on the side of the centre-left, when Democratic presidents fall behind in the polls and choose not to run for re-election. On both previous occasions in the past 75 years (Harry Truman in 1952, Lyndon Johnson in 1968) the Democrats proceeded to then lose the White House ...
This is a free articleCoverageThis morning, US President Joe Biden announced his withdrawal from the Presidential race. And that is genuinely newsworthy. Thanks for your service, President Biden, and all the best to you and yours.However, the media in New Zealand, particularly the 1News nightly bulletin, has been breathlessly covering ...
A homeless person’s camp beside a blocked-off slipped damage walkway in Freeman’s Bay: we are chasing our tail on our worsening and inter-related housing, poverty and climate crises. Photo: Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy ...
What has happened to it all?Crazy, some'd sayWhere is the life that I recognise?(Gone away)But I won't cry for yesterdayThere's an ordinary worldSomehow I have to findAnd as I try to make my wayTo the ordinary worldYesterday morning began as many others - what to write about today? I began ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:00 am on Monday, July 22 are:Today’s Must Read: Father and son live in a tent, and have done for four years, in a million ...
TL;DR: As of 7:00 am on Monday, July 22, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:US President Joe Biden announced via X this morning he would not stand for a second term.Multinational professional services firm ...
A listing of 32 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, July 14, 2024 thru Sat, July 20, 2024. Story of the week As reflected by preponderance of coverage, our Story of the Week is Project 2025. Until now traveling ...
This weekend, a friend pointed out someone who said they’d like to read my posts, but didn’t want to pay. And my first reaction was sympathy.I’ve already told folks that if they can’t comfortably subscribe, and would like to read, I’d be happy to offer free subscriptions. I don’t want ...
National: The Party of ‘Law and Order’ IntroductionThis weekend, the Government formally kicked off one of their flagship policy programs: a military style boot camp that New Zealand has experimented with over the past 50 years. Cartoon credit: Guy BodyIt’s very popular with the National Party’s Law and Orderimage, ...
Day one of the solo leg of my long journey home begins with my favourite sound: footfalls in an empty street. 5.00 am and it’s already light and already too warm, almost.If I can make the train that leaves Budapest later this hour I could be in Belgrade by nightfall; ...
Do you remember Y2K, the threat that hung over humanity in the closing days of the twentieth century? Horror scenarios of planes falling from the sky, electronic payments failing and ATMs refusing to dispense cash. As for your VCR following instructions and recording your favourite show - forget about it.All ...
Climate Change Minister Simon Watts being questioned by The Kākā’s Bernard Hickey.TL;DR: My top six things to note around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the week to July 20 were:1. A strategy that fails Zero Carbon Act & Paris targetsThe National-ACT-NZ First Coalition Government finally unveiled ...
Summary:As New Zealand loses at least 12 leaders in the public service space of health, climate, and pharmaceuticals, this month alone, directly in response to the Government’s policies and budget choices, what lies ahead may be darker than it appears. Tui examines some of those departures and draws a long ...
The Minister of Housing’s ambition is to reduce markedly the ratio of house prices to household incomes. If his strategy works it would transform the housing market, dramatically changing the prospects of housing as an investment.Leaving aside the Minister’s metaphor of ‘flooding the market’ I do not see how the ...
As previously noted, my historical fantasy piece, set in the fifth-century Mediterranean, was accepted for a Pirate Horror anthology, only for the anthology to later fall through. But in a good bit of news, it turned out that the story could indeed be re-marketed as sword and sorcery. As of ...
An employee of tobacco company Philip Morris International demonstrates a heated tobacco device. Photo: Getty ImagesTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy on Friday, July 19 are:At a time when the Coalition Government is cutting spending on health, infrastructure, education, housing ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 8:30 am on Friday, July 19 are:Scoop: NZ First Minister Casey Costello orders 50% cut to excise tax on heated tobacco products. The minister has ...
Kia ora, it’s time for another Friday roundup, in which we pull together some of the links and stories that caught our eye this week. Feel free to add more in the comments! Our header image this week shows a foggy day in Auckland town, captured by Patrick Reynolds. ...
TL;DR : Here’s the top six items climate news for Aotearoa this week, as selected by Bernard Hickey and The Kākā’s climate correspondent Cathrine Dyer. A discussion recorded yesterday is in the video above and the audio of that sent onto the podcast feed.The Government released its draft Emissions Reduction ...
Save some money, get rich and old, bring it back to Tobacco Road.Bring that dynamite and a crane, blow it up, start all over again.Roll up. Roll up. Or tailor made, if you prefer...Whether you’re selling ciggies, digging for gold, catching dolphins in your nets, or encouraging folks to flutter ...
Waiting In The Wings:For truly, if Trump is America’s un-assassinated Caesar, then J.D. Vance is America’s Octavian, the Republic’s youthful undertaker – and its first Emperor.DONALD TRUMP’S SELECTION of James D. Vance as his running-mate bodes ill for the American republic. A fervent supporter of Viktor Orban, the “illiberal” prime ...
TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Friday, July 19, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:The PSAannounced the Employment Relations Authority (ERA) had ruled in the PSA’s favour in its case against the Ministry ...
TL;DR: The podcast above of the weekly ‘hoon’ webinar for paying subscribers last night features co-hosts and talking with:The Kākā’s climate correspondent talking about the National-ACT-NZ First Government’s release of its first Emissions Reduction Plan;University of Otago Foreign Relations Professor and special guest Dr Karin von ...
Open access notablesImproving global temperature datasets to better account for non-uniform warming, Calvert, Quarterly Journal of the Royal Meteorological Society:To better account for spatial non-uniform trends in warming, a new GITD [global instrumental temperature dataset] was created that used maximum likelihood estimation (MLE) to combine the land surface ...
A late change to charter school legislation will cheat educators out of fair pay and negotiating power proving charter schools are just a vehicle to make profit out of our education system. ...
In 2004 te iwi Māori rallied against the Crown’s attempt to confiscate our coastlines and moana with the Foreshore and Seabed Act. This led to the largest hīkoi of a generation and the birth of Te Pāti Māori. 20 years later, history is repeating itself. Today the government has announced ...
It has been five and a half years since the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care was established to investigate the abuse of children, young people, and vulnerable adults within state and faith-based institutions. Yesterday, the final report - Whanaketia through pain and trauma, from darkness to light ...
The Green Party is calling on the Government to take action off the back of the International Court of Justice ruling on Israel’s illegal occupation of Palestine. ...
On Friday the International Court of Justice reaffirmed what Palestinian’s have been telling us for decades: that the occupation and colonisation of Palestinian lands by Israel is illegal and must end immediately. They also called for reparations for Palestinian’s who have lived under Israeli occupation since it began in 1967. ...
Labour calls on the Government to act after the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruled that Israel’s occupation of Palestinian Territories is illegal. ...
The 53.7 percent rise in benefit sanctions over the last year is more proof of this Government’s disdain for our communities most in need of support. ...
Aotearoa could be a country where every child grows up feeling safe, loved and with a sense of belonging in their whānau and community. But for some of our children, this is far from reality. Instead, they are trapped in a maze of intergenerational harm that they can’t escape on ...
Te Pāti Māori are calling for David Seymour to resign as Associate Health Minister in response to his call for Pharmac to ignore the Treaty of Waitangi. “This announcement is just another example of the government’s anti-Tiriti, anti-Māori agenda.” Said Co-leader and spokesperson for health, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer. “Seymour thinks it ...
The soaring price of renting is driving the rise of inflation in this country - with latest figures from Stats NZ showing rents are up 4.8 per cent on average while annual inflation is at 3.3 per cent. ...
National’s Emissions Reduction Plan will take New Zealand further from the economy we need to ensure the next generation has a stable climate and secure livelihoods. ...
Following consultation with named parties and thorough consideration of privacy interests, the Green Party is in a position to release the Executive Summary of the final report from the independent investigation into Darleen Tana. ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon should be asking serious questions of his Minister for Resources Shane Jones now it’s been revealed he misled the public about a dinner with mining companies that he didn’t declare and said wasn’t pre-arranged. ...
Te Pāti Māori have submitted to the Justice Select Committee against the Sentencing (Reinstating Three Strikes) Amendment Bill. The bill will further entrench racism in our justice system and fails to focus on rehabilitation. “Reinstating Three Strikes will empower a systematically racist system and exacerbate the overrepresentation of Māori in ...
The Transport and Infrastructure Committee is set to make a determination on the Residential Tenancies Amendment (RTA) Bill in the coming weeks. “This legislation will give landlords the power to kick our whānau out onto the street for no reason” said Housing spokesperson, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi. “Their solution to the housing ...
“National’s campaign was about tackling crime and the best they can do is a two-year long Ministerial Advisory Group,” Labour justice spokesperson Duncan Webb said. ...
“There are more examples of charter schools failing their students than there are success stories. The coalition Government is driving to dismantle our public school system and instead promote a privatised, competitive structure that puts profits before kids,” Jan Tinetti said. ...
“This government is choosing to deliberately mislead and withhold information, keeping our people in the dark about this government’s agenda and the future of our mokopuna,” said co-leader and spokesperson for Health, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer. The call comes after the demand from the Chief Ombudsman that Associate Minister of Health, Casey ...
“Today’s climate announcement by Simon Watts makes clear the National Government is simply paying lip service to meeting its climate change targets,” Megan Woods said. ...
National is choosing to make life harder for workers by taking away the rights our communities have fought hard for. Here's how they’re taking workers backwards. ...
Australia, Canada and New Zealand today issued the following statement on the need for an urgent ceasefire in Gaza and the risk of expanded conflict between Hizballah and Israel. The situation in Gaza is catastrophic. The human suffering is unacceptable. It cannot continue. We remain unequivocal in our condemnation of ...
Attorney-General Judith Collins today reminded all State and faith-based institutions of their legal obligation to preserve records relevant to the safety and wellbeing of those in its care. “The Abuse in Care Inquiry’s report has found cases where records of the most vulnerable people in State and faith‑based institutions were ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says the Government’s online safety website for children and young people has reached one million page views. “It is great to see so many young people and their families accessing the site Keep It Real Online to learn how to stay safe online, and manage ...
Tēnā tātou katoa, Ngā mihi te rangi, ngā mihi te whenua, ngā mihi ki a koutou, kia ora mai koutou. Thank you for the opportunity to be here and the invitation to speak at this 50th anniversary conference. I acknowledge all those who have gone before us and paved the ...
New Zealand’s payroll providers have successfully prepared to ensure 3.5 million individuals will, from Wednesday next week, be able to keep more of what they earn each pay, says Finance Minister Nicola Willis and Revenue Minister Simon Watts. “The Government's tax policy changes are legally effective from Wednesday. Delivering this tax ...
An experimental vineyard which will help futureproof the wine sector has been opened in Blenheim by Associate Regional Development Minister Mark Patterson. The covered vineyard, based at the New Zealand Wine Centre – Te Pokapū Wāina o Aotearoa, enables controlled environmental conditions. “The research that will be produced at the Experimental ...
The Coalition Government has confirmed the indicative regional breakdown of North Island Weather Event (NIWE) funding for state highway recovery projects funded through Budget 2024, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Regions in the North Island suffered extensive and devastating damage from Cyclone Gabrielle and the 2023 Auckland Anniversary Floods, and ...
Indonesia’s Foreign Minister, Retno Marsudi, will visit New Zealand next week, Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced. “Indonesia is important to New Zealand’s security and economic interests and is our closest South East Asian neighbour,” says Mr Peters, who is currently in Laos to engage with South East Asian partners. ...
He aha te kai a te rangatira? He kōrero, he kōrero, he kōrero. The government has reaffirmed its commitment to supporting the aspirations of Ngāti Maniapoto, Minister for Māori Development Tama Potaka says. “My thanks to Te Nehenehenui Trust – Ngāti Maniapoto for bringing their important kōrero to a ministerial ...
Transport Minister Simeon Brown has thanked outgoing Chair of the Civil Aviation Authority, Janice Fredric, for her service to the board.“I have received Ms Fredric’s resignation from the role of Chair of the Civil Aviation Authority,” Mr Brown says.“On behalf of the Government, I want to thank Ms Fredric for ...
The Government is proposing legislation to overturn a Court of Appeal decision and amend the Marine and Coastal Area Act in order to restore Parliament’s test for Customary Marine Title, Treaty Negotiations Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “Section 58 required an applicant group to prove they have exclusively used and occupied ...
Regulation Minister David Seymour says that opposition parties have united in bad faith, opposing what they claim are ‘dangerous changes’ to the Early Childhood Education sector, despite no changes even being proposed yet. “Issues with affordability and availability of early childhood education, and the complexity of its regulation, has led ...
After receiving more than 740 submissions in the first 20 days, Regulation Minister David Seymour is asking the Ministry for Regulation to extend engagement on the early childhood education regulation review by an extra two weeks. “The level of interest has been very high, and from the conversations I’ve been ...
The Coalition Government is investing $802.9 million into the Wairarapa and Manawatū rail lines as part of a funding agreement with the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA), KiwiRail, and the Greater Wellington and Horizons Regional Councils to deliver more reliable services for commuters in the lower North Island, Transport Minister Simeon ...
Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has announced his intention to appoint a Crown Manager to both Hawke’s Bay Regional and Wairoa District Councils to speed up the delivery of flood protection work in Wairoa."Recent severe weather events in Wairoa this year, combined with damage from Cyclone Gabrielle in 2023 have ...
Mr Speaker, this is a day that many New Zealanders who were abused in State care never thought would come. It’s the day that this Parliament accepts, with deep sorrow and regret, the Report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care. At the heart of this report are the ...
For the first time, the Government is formally acknowledging some children and young people at Lake Alice Psychiatric Hospital experienced torture. The final report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in State and Faith-based Care “Whanaketia – through pain and trauma, from darkness to light,” was tabled in Parliament ...
The Government has acknowledged the nearly 2,400 courageous survivors who shared their experiences during the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Historical Abuse in State and Faith-Based Care. The final report from the largest and most complex public inquiry ever held in New Zealand, the Royal Commission Inquiry “Whanaketia – through ...
With a week to go before hard-working New Zealanders see personal income tax relief for the first time in fourteen years, 513,000 people have used the Budget tax calculator to see how much they will benefit, says Finance Minister Nicola Willis. “Tax relief is long overdue. From next Wednesday, personal income ...
Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Brooke van Velden says a bill that has passed its first reading will improve parental leave settings and give non-biological parents more flexibility as primary carer for their child. The Regulatory Systems Amendment Bill (No3), passed its first reading this morning. “It includes a change ...
Two Bills designed to improve regulation and make it easier to do business have passed their first reading in Parliament, says Economic Development Minister Melissa Lee. The Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill and Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill make key changes to legislation administered by the Ministry ...
New legislation paves the way for greater competition in sectors such as banking and electricity, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly says. “Competitive markets boost productivity, create employment opportunities and lift living standards. To support competition, we need good quality regulation but, unfortunately, a recent OECD report ranked New ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says lotteries for charitable purposes, such as those run by the Heart Foundation, Coastguard NZ, and local hospices, will soon be allowed to operate online permanently. “Under current laws, these fundraising lotteries are only allowed to operate online until October 2024, after which ...
The Coalition Government is accelerating work on the new four-lane expressway between Auckland and Whangārei as part of its Roads of National Significance programme, with an accelerated delivery model to deliver this project faster and more efficiently, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “For too long, the lack of resilient transport connections ...
Sir Don McKinnon will travel to Viet Nam this week as a Special Envoy of the Government, Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced. “It is important that the Government give due recognition to the significant contributions that General Secretary Nguyen Phu Trong made to New Zealand-Viet Nam relations,” Mr ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says newly appointed Commissioner, Grant Illingworth KC, will help deliver the report for the first phase of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into COVID-19 Lessons, due on 28 November 2024. “I am pleased to announce that Mr Illingworth will commence his appointment as ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters travels to Laos this week to participate in a series of Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN)-led Ministerial meetings in Vientiane. “ASEAN plays an important role in supporting a peaceful, stable and prosperous Indo-Pacific,” Mr Peters says. “This will be our third visit to ...
Construction of a new mental health facility at Te Nikau Grey Hospital in Greymouth is today one step closer, Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey says. “This $27 million facility shows this Government is delivering on its promise to boost mental health care and improve front line services,” Mr Doocey says. ...
New Zealand is committing nearly $50 million to a package supporting sustainable Pacific fisheries development over the next four years, Foreign Minister Winston Peters and Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones announced today. “This support consisting of a range of initiatives demonstrates New Zealand’s commitment to assisting our Pacific partners ...
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Another thoughtful piece again from a NZ commentator, Dane Giraud.
https://plainsight.nz/what-is-keeping-men-out-of-the-fight-for-womens-rights/
And from Laura Lopez in the same publication.
https://plainsight.nz/women-deserve-the-right-to-speak/
I linked to a piece from Damian Grant in OM of 1/4.
Comment:Open mike 01/04/2023
And there is this one also. We need to listen to the voices of young people who have been failed by our systems.
https://plainsight.nz/young-new-zealanders-are-being-rushed-into-medical-gender-transition/?fbclid=IwAR3up8c8YYk6Vcmy5591PW-9YSKa8ymlOYE4eBeq6V_yBoo7cK_miLc2xVA
If only it was as easy to get HRT if peri or menopausal..
Laura López’s research is comprehensive, and her articles about the evidence for – and impacts of – affirming healthcare are worth the read.
Not least because they are NZ specific.
Thanks for those links.
I had read the second, but not Dane Giraud's and it was a good article, clearly identifying the important issues, and summing up well:
I don't believe the violence was "earned", but I believe it was easily foreseen.
No one, it seems, is pointing the finger at PP for the fractured skull, in the way fingers were pointed at the forestry industry for the slash-destruction.
Are you pointing the finger at PP for the fractured skull?
Simon Anderson is still retrieving and posting videos from his 360 recording:
https://twitter.com/SimonRAnderson1/status/1642275035808415745?s=20
Do you think I am?
Was Ces Blazey in part responsible for the physical harm experienced by protesters of the Springbok tour?
"Do you think I am?"
Don't know, that's why I asked.
Anything else?
NZ Govt was the one primarily at fault for allowing sport to dictate politics. We should have boycotted South Africa including with sport. Ces Blazey was the figurehead of the NZRFU that actually should have known better. NZ at large was at fault because of the notion that sport overrode good sense.
NZ Govt is primarily at fault here too for introducing this divisive Self ID/No Debate duo. Not allowing women to be heard, enacting possibly threatening to women measures.
‘That internal monologue I mentioned, convincing you that the abuse you see is somehow earned – that women wanting to voice concerns about their rights are asking for violence and intimidation – Well, you can start by canceling that transmission.”
Dane Giraud (link above)
Unanimously passed
Yes, because both self ID and the "Gay Conversion" legislation was draped in so many rainbow flags that everybody overlooked the additions of "gender" and "gender identity" which rendered them useful only to the gender ideologists.
"everybody overlooked the additions of "gender" and "gender identity" which rendered them useful only to the gender ideologists."
Any links for that blanket statement?
Unanimously passed – despite negative feedback from the public.
Speak Up For Women went through all the submissions.
https://www.facebook.com/plugins/post.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FSpeakUp4WomenNZ%2Fposts%2F1210846262756868&show_text=true&width=500"
Like a lot of laws then.
Perhaps.
However, it does suggest the unanimous vote could've been the result of political capture, rather than reflective of public support.
"Ces Blazey was the figurehead of the NZRFU that actually should have known better."
Indeed.
"Figureheads" have a responsibility to know better than to create situations that will cause harm to good people.
So Robert does that mean that we simply can't have events such as Let Women Speak because the organisers should be aware there will be violence?
Maybe organisers could expect people not to be violent ? Maybe the organisers could also expect appropriate police action to prevent violence from occurring
At the end of the day, the only person responsible for punching an elderly woman in the face is the person who punched her, but what you're suggesting sounds like you're getting a little bit close towards some form of victim blaming?
Based on your logic (or the point you seem to be alluding to) it would be hard to see how we could have any public events which are about issues affecting society because these days it's pretty much a given that some idiotic, pathetic, weak, cowardly people will always show up looking for a little bullying action.
You are projecting your view into my words, MichaelP, and finding "victim blaming" where there is none. If I meant to claim that, I would have said, "It was her own fault!", which is not what I've said at all; don't feel bad though; several other commenters here have done exactly the same thing, one even suggesting that I claimed "she was asking for it", citing a short-skirt-wearing rape victim meme in her reply. This assumptive debating is making the issue very challenging for anyone other than the "pro-PP faction" to comment on the issue. I'd be wise to have not engaged at all, or at least to stop now, but feel there's a need for some
poor fool,scapegoatperson, to at least have a go at it 🙂You say, "Based on your logic (or the point you seem to be alluding to)"
and therein lies the problem Incognito outlined yesterday; the keen-ness to attribute intention where there is none.
"Maybe organisers could expect people not to be violent ?"
Maybe. Organisers of public events where controversial figures are intending to speak "could" take extra care in the protection of vulnerable people, especially elderly people.
Try this thought experiment, MichaelP:
You are the sole organiser of a second PP event; same venue. You have seen what happened at the first. You understand the anxieties held by one particular community around PP. Do you give the event the go-ahead, welcoming all, including the vulnerable and the abusive, or do you tailor the event to the circumstances? Do you simply "expect people not to be violent"? and take no steps to ensure that is the case, for the sake of anyone vulnerable to harm?
Not victim blaming; wise event management, imo.
Look for potential problems; avoid them.
"…but I believe it was easily foreseen."
Why? Because at least one Green Party MP incited it? Or because trans activists can't any longer be trusted to engage in this conversation peacefully? Or both?
One Green Party MP incited "it"?
Ah! It's her fault then!
You're the one who claimed you believe 'it was easily foreseen'. So tell me why you think that. Do you not trust trans activists to respond within the law? Or do you expect that a tweet by a prominent MP that she is 'so ready to fight Nazi's' might just have the effect of rarking people up?
Was there tension/upset at the meeting prior to this one?
Was there no signalling from the trans community here as to their feelings and intentions?
You are kidding me, right?
There was no meeting in NZ prior to this one.
The trans community can signal all the feelings they like. That doesn't give them the right to suppress others freedom of speech.
You are enabling, supporting, the thugs veto.
So might is always right is that what you are saying?
So the women wanting to hear their own speaker were doubly jeopardised by
– the topic of the meeting not being flavour of the month (I mean women's rights, women's issues and free speech are so boring)
– not being able to defend their right to free speech by violence.
The meeting before this one was in Australia. NZ is not in Australia. We had an expectation that the Policing would be adequate and competent as it had been before at other protests in NZ.
That reads like a veiled reference to the ole "She should've kept her trap shut".
Not "trap shut" but calling in to an insecure venue, knowing there was the potential for trouble … her call!
Re: "her call!"
As good as "She asked for it".
Have you seen the video of the elderly woman being punched repeatedly in the face by a 20something man?
Or does your relentless apologism prevent you?
Ah, it's her fault then.
Whose fault?
I don't believe any one person was at fault, but some people didn't read the tealeaves, didn't act responsibly in the knowledge that strong protest was likely.
So the TRA protester who assaulted the elderly lady wasn't at fault then?
Really, what excuse can you possibly make for them?
Having seen the footage, it's clearly a deliberate assault, not an accident or a case of mistaken identity.
'Some people'.
Which people? The thugs who turned up and hit the elderly lady? The thugs who grabbed a woman and hurled her to the ground? The thugs who punched an elderly man? Those people?
"Whose fault?"
You know exactly what you said.
"calling in to an insecure venue, knowing there was the potential for trouble … her call!"
You're victim blaming, pure and simple.
who did it better?
https://twitter.com/therealrukshan/status/1642457742823800834
There were police present.
Posie holds her engagements outside, because when she held them in indoor venues, they were often cancelled at short notice.
So yes an on goal by cancel culture.
Honestly the victim blamming by the trans rights activists is unbelievable.
things like "she shouldn't have held the protest outside because she knew there would be trouble"
This is the sort of thing women have put up with for years. "why was she walking alone at night etc"
The tras mob were violent and shut down free speech. Own it
This reads like victim blaming. Women in the past have had to out up with this along with terms such as 'witch' and 'crone'.
The person with the fractured skull was exercising her right to stand waiting to attend an event with PP. This event was more or less gate crashed by the protestors who chanted, pulled the barricades down and then charged aggressively at the band rotunda.
The Let Women Speak event was not the interloper here. The interloper was the large number of protestors who felt that violence was justified so people, mainly women, could not exercise free speech. The fault clearly lies with this ill controlled crowd not PP or the Let Women Speak crowd.
You seem to be running a very odd narrative.
It seems that way to you, I recognise.
Those calling in supporters for the korero had no idea trouble might ensue?
Really?
Wood said:
" “It was also generally accepted by many parties before me that Ms Keen-Minshull’s views may well be potentially harmful to those communities, communities which are deserving of protection, being particularly vulnerable to harm and discrimination.”"
Seems fair to me.
You?
https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/131660282/damien-grant-were-having-a-free-speech-moment-it-isnt-going-well
There are some facts on that Robert – which Mr Wood obviously knows nothing about.
https://thecritic.co.uk/neither-marginalised-abused-nor-vulnerable/?fbclid=IwAR2tG9aStkbefxA-3k5RNUjOO9Lo3Pe7fVT7wvTmtZcnJ1yHbB7SuHgcxEg
That is a great article.
Clearly the politicians all round the world have bought the Job Lot '20 (untrue but possibly difficult to fact check) talking points on trans victimhood".
That's well beneath you Robert. Flat out victim blaming there.
I've not blamed anyone, Cricklewood, certainly not the victim (the elderly woman who was hurt).
I'm puzzled by your comment.
certainly not the victim (the elderly woman who was hurt).
A little disingenuous, wouldn't you say.
This is naive Robert.
You know you being puzzled is odd when you have been given so much information & references to access more plus comments by all sorts of people.
Why are you doing this?
At this point, I think the puzzled non-comprehension, has turned into downright trolling.
Have yet to see Robert put up a decent argument and be prepared to debate it.
Long responses, taking him seriously, are ignored.
Your comments are no different to those that happily use the 'she was asking for it' or 'she brought in on herself' defense.
An all to familiar trope that's often wheeled out when a young woman is harassed or worse.
That's not the case, Cricklewood but I can see you believe it is.
Pro-Posse commenters here seem to hold very un-charitable, unkind views toward transgender people. Some of the language used has been violent, imo ("chop of his penis" etc.)
If I was a transgender person, or the parent of one, I'd feel anxious reading these threads. I can see why the community could have felt the same way on hearing of PP's impending visit.
If your second sentence is linked to your first one (that the violent language has been used on TS) – then I'd really like you to link to this – so I can condemn it.
I don't recall this at all.
If it is not, then this is really, really misleading – and you should apologize.
I am charitably assuming that your reference to Posie is a typo.
I've not seen anything like that, care to provide a link to the comment/s you are refering to?
"Pro-Posse commenters here seem to hold very un-charitable, unkind views toward transgender people. Some of the language used has been violent, imo ("chop of his penis" etc.)"
Robert, please link to where someone on TS has said "chop off his penis",
If you can't, please rewrite your comment and provide examples of the language used on TS that has been violent.
I’m asking this as a moderator.
weka – I read this today, perhaps in a link. I'm happy to sit in moderation till I get a chance to find it (still filming, the crew arrived just now and are planning today's programme of filming.).
weka, it's clear that my time here on TS is up; there's no way I can rise above the atmosphere that's developed here. Others have fled the coup, I suspect, and I can't see a way to extricate myself from the mess of pottage. Not that I want to either. The focus has become exclusionary. It puzzles me greatly, the change that has come over the team here. Where before, teasing out issues was acceptable, with this issue, only complete agreement with the (now) dominant narrative seems allowable. Despite believing that I am able to understand issues such as this one well, I am being repeatedly told that I am unable to see the truth and am in fact, inflaming the situation. I am so acutely reminded of The Stroppery and this is not a good memory for me 🙂
I haven't read all the comments in the past day, was doing other things yesterday. Which is unfortunate because you did bring something concrete yesterday with Frank's post and I have been wanting to respond but haven't had the time.
The impression I have is that you've been doing your usual commenting of asking questions and making statements to tease things out but not making clear arguments with back up. Many people here are have a lot of experience with this issue and a great deal of knowledge and will argue hard from that because of what is at stake especially for women. I suspect you haven't had this kind of push back here before and it can be intense.
The easiest way to deal with that ime, is to bring arguments that are thought through and that have clear back up at the time. People here respect that even where they disagree, because it gives them something to think about and respond to.
Sometimes it works just to take a break for a while. You will be welcome to come back if you do take a break. There are other things to be talked about too, the election, how the Greens are going, where the good cultural shifts are happening (and where they are blocked).
Hope all goes well with the filming, looking forward to that!
Perhaps, weka, you might post a retraction from me, saying, I may well be mistaken about that and read that comment in a link from here. I don't wish to assign violent language to any TS commenter.
Thanks
thanks Robert, that’s all that’s needed 👍 What we find is that when people make controversial claims about what others on TS are saying, without linking, everything gets more agitated then it already was. You can understand that at this time, accuracy matters.
Fwiw, I can’t find that phrase in recent TS history (past few months)
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02-04-2023/#comment-1943311
I belive this is what Robert is referring to…
thanks.
It’s very crude, and very Germaine Greer. I don’t consider it violence against trans women who have surgery. In terms of TS I think about it alongside the arguments we’ve had here where men have said they have a right to have sex with a woman while she is asleep even after it’s been pointed out to them that it’s against the law. It’s finding that balance between robust debate and making the space good enough for more people to take part in that. I have no doubt that trans women avoid TS, but I know that women do as well.
Likewise I understand why many trans people felt anxious about KJK coming to NZ. And I understand the range of feelings that many women have in watching the mob attacking her and other women, and stopping NZ women from speaking at Let Women Speak.
None of this is going to go away, so we may we as well push on through and see if we can hash out the issues and come to something better.
I saw the words "have a right to have sex…" and thought oh here we go, some dickheads whining about not getting sex and giving men a bad name. Then I carried on reading to see that Men on here have stated it's ok or their right to have sex with a woman who is asleep??? OMFG!
Wow I missed that discussion. Unbelievable. That is trying to defend or justify rape for goodness sake.
Despicable viewpoints aside, how could anyone possibly enjoy having sex with someone who is asleep, assuming that the more obvious enjoyment your partner is having means the more enjoyment you're having??
Or am I just showing my age again….sigh.
Anyway, sorry to carry on an obviously older and by the sounds of it pretty offensive discussion I just saw the words and bristled…
it used to come up in the Assange debates, because some people were so keen to not have him charged they denied there were any problems with how he behaved to the two women.
Not that I want bring all that up again, but the salient point is that men objecting to rude, crude or harsh language about trans people in one of the biggest political debates in a generation need to understand the wider TS context for robust debate. If we’re arguing about sensitivity and who might be put off commenting. And, most of the GC comments about trans people specifically (rather than ideology) aren’t rude, crude or harsh.
Thank you, Cricklewood. I was a little rattled by the response and couldn't backtrack to find it.
"Good old Germaine Greer." was the lead in. I followed the suggestion. Wish I hadn't.
It's a very difficult subject, I'm pretty much a full on libertarian when it comes to social issues but can understand why biological woman feel threatened when it comes to spaces like bathrooms etc a woman feeling that way doesn't make them a fascist, nazi or a terf.
Sadly the rhetoric has become increasingly heated to the point where seemingly some feel physical violence is justified based loosely on the its ok to punch a nazi.
Imo our media and politicians added to that with the language used in the lead up to the event.
I'm not sure how this ever gets resolved but the path things are going down now it seems resolution becomes increasingly difficult.
Thank-you Robert for your herculean effort to redress the balance over this vexed issue. It has been pretty one sided and most have chosen to stay well away from the subject. I don't blame them one little bit. It has not been a pleasant experience.
I recall a reference to the “chop off his penis” but it might have been within a link and not a direct quote from a commenter. Whatever, no-one should have even linked to anything containing language like that.
why not?
This "incomprehension/poor comprehension" meme that's thriving here is regrettable, imo.
It doesn't pay to imply that some people are stupid. It's useful to question whether believing the other guy is stupid is a heads-up to check ones own bias/blinkers, especially where some of those who appear to "one" as failing to comprehend have previously provided intelligent commentary on other issues.
Sorry Robert, I have read your comment a few times and I don’t know what you mean. Where is the incomprehension meme? Are you saying that I am implying that someone is stupid?
I was interested in why Anne thought that no-one should ever link to language like Greer used.
@ Crcicklewood with the link to GG. Mine in fact.
This does not say chop off his penis.
What it does say is that if you are a man and you chop off your penis it does not make you a women any more than the wolf dressing up & lying in Grandma's bed makes it Grandma.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Red_Riding_Hood
I am finding the level of incomprehension worrying.
Distilled down to its starkest in this access to safe spaces for women it says:
Women don't have penises.
The clip from GG is very clearly written and typical GG. I loved her analogy about the long ears, liver spots and long brown coat and the spaniel. And having been exposed to GG for many years there will be a hint of self deprecation there as ageing females (and males) often have still growing longer ears and liver spots. It was laugh out loud to me. Laugh out loud because it is ridiculous.
And yet sadly this is the level of woo that women are supposed to believe uncritically.
It also is a sad commentary on the lengths that people will go, with bodily dysphoria issues. The administration of chemicals, often lifelong leading to sterility etc and the surgical moves that can lead to the after effects of surgery as well as from the procedures themselves.
"I am finding the level of incomprehension worrying."
Get a grip!
Pretty obvious I only recalled seeing the words with no recollection of where or the context. I merely confirmed to Robert I had seen it too because it was being questioned.
@ Anne. If you look at the clip I linked to it does not mention cut off his dick, in fact all the potentially naughty words are marked by ******.
Neither does the clip encourage anyone to cut off their penis.
I am wondering if the link RG saw was in fact the GG one.
The clip merely states GG belief system, that should be uncontroversial, that cutting one’s penis off does not make one a female.
This was the poor comprehension I am talking about, is when people do not understand this uncontroversial biological fact.
If a man has a cancerous tumour on his penis and has a penectomy does that make him a woman? I mean he has had his penis cut off.
Answer: no it makes him a man without a penis.
@ Robert Guyton.
Well if you know GG, who has been around commenting on Women's Issues since the 1970s.
(she was the author of the Female Eunuch in 1970s)
then you will remember she has always called a spade a spade.
All she said was that a man cutting off his penis does not make him a woman. She did not say 'cut off yr dick or penis" She commented on her belief system and that is that despite such surgery it does not make him a woman.
I find this to be biologically correct and uncontroversial.
Do you believe otherwise?
If so why?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germaine_Greer
I don't have an issue with your explanation, but fear you have missed the point entirely.
I won't claim you have reading comprehension problems 🙂 but perhaps you might consider the possibility that for some "communities", similar in concept to the community of women being steadfastly defended/promoted/championed here, the community of men (there are still, I believe, men reading TS) who find the choice of phrase/words used by GG and repeated over and over here, disturbing. You women may not, some of us men, do.
What is the phrase Robert, you do not give it so how can I moderate the use if need be if I don't know the phrase you are offended by?
In the GG link the phrase & others is illustrated by ******.
I don't think I have ever seen an agreement from you that men cannot some how turn into women ie recognition of biology.
Your continuing silence means for me that I have to think that you imagine that this can be done, some how.
I usually use this word below unless another word or ***** is in a quote. I did briefly toy with the idea of 'no dicks in dunnies' as a slogan but man, woman, penis, vagina seem quite able to do the 'lifting' here.
Are these offensive? Which one/s should I not be using and what word/s should I replace them by…happy to use male gentitalia and female genitalia if that would be better than penis or vagina?
To be frank I am baffled by you seemingly not getting the issue. Not getting an issue of biology seems to me an issue of comprehension.
Have you read some of the posts by Tsmithfield or RedLogix. Were they helpful?
That seems to me a remarkably silly analogy.
The proximate cause of the slash destruction was a weather event (or a series of weather events). No one can expect the rain to exercise discretion.
The proximate cause of the fractured skull of the assaulted woman was one (or more) violent protester, egged on by a supporting group – and validated by supporters in positions of authority. All of whom should have known better, and are criminally liable. One can certainly expect protesters to act with human agency and refrain from outright violence.
This was not an 'accident' (someone pushed over in the crush, or tripping and falling) – it was outright deliberate assault.
I condemn those who engaged in violence, those who encouraged violence, and those who have continued to refrain from condemning the violent actions.
Do you?
I don't support violence.
If those involved in organising the event knew that a vulnerable person might get seriously hurt, are they, in part, responsible for that outcome?
That is pure victim blaming. If you can't see it, then you should have a hard look at your own biases.
If a woman wears a short skirt and is raped – was she, in part "responsible for that outcome" /sarc/
The victim is not responsible for the criminal actions of the assailant.
I'm glad you don't support violence. Can you bring yourself to say that you condemn the violent actions of the TRA activists at the PP event?
Because, just about every comment you make is trying to blame someone else.
Good points Belladonna.
It would be reasonable to expect any protest to be peaceful. One would not expect protesters to behave like a bunch of uncivilized yahoos.
That has been my experience though I was not involved in frontline of the Springbok clashes though but I've been to sufficient to know that these were often rowdy affairs & marches up Queen St and along Lambton Quay would have had a fair few booing.
I was around in -81 Both sides in that episode of our history knew that there would be violence (knew there would be, not just thought there might be)
The protesters had their 'battle tactics' as did the police and pro tour supporters. Nobody was under any illusion which is why the frontlines of both sides wore helmets, body armour and carried weapons.
That's a whole different world away from holding an event called Let Women Speak and expecting protesters to be loud but not violent (a perfectly reasonable expectation IMO)
I don't know obviously but would guess that many of the women who were subjected to the violence at LWS all probably wouldn't have gone if they knew beforehand that there was going to be violence. Of course I could be wrong on that.
I guess some may have thought there would probably be violence and may have not ever been in a real life violent confrontation so may not have known quite how terrifying and unlike TV / the movies it actually is but that would be a small minority in my opinion.
Regardless of any of that the fault lies almost entirely with the perpetrators and I believe the police have to bare some responsibility also. If anything in New Zealand, anybody should e able to go to a protest with the assumption it will be peaceful.
What makes this really sinister (violence toward women aside) from my viewpoint is firstly that the violence seemed to probably be deliberate and targeted with a certain amount of pre planning or certainly forethought
Also the actions or lack thereof of the nz police which looks (again from my viewpoint) suspiciously like active or deliberate non engagement. What was the point of police even being there if they weren't going to do any policing?
Either that or the police were too scared to get involved (scared for their own physical safety and / or scared of possible public or ministerial backlash if they were to get physical) which if true would be disturbing in it's own right.
Why? They did, therefore it was something one might expect.
It's not the first time protesters have behaved "like a bunch of uncivilized yahoos."
Did you forsee it, Robert?
Perhaps you can link to your comments prior to the PP event/ TRA riot – telling us all that it would end in violence.
I certainly didn't.
I expected that there would be shouting and chanting, banner waving, and speeches, a counter protest (as we've seen many times in the past). An active, noisy, protest, making their point clear.
I expected that the Police would have a firm line between the two groups (also as we've seen in the past). And that there would be degree of pushing at the police line – but that common sense (on all sides) would prevail.
I expected that there would be lots of media coverage – of greater and less bias. And that some politicians, with natural constituencies in the TRA group, would be in attendance.
I did not expect that there would be virtually no police presence, and that when protesters breached the light barricades, they would then go on to violently assault people on the other side. And, I did not expect (though perhaps I should) that senior politicians would refrain from condemning this violence.
Good points Belladonna.
My expectation too. But we have a new style of policing now that we didn't know of beforehand.
And now we have people who would blame those who thought this was going to be protest of old, that 'we' should have known that there would be no police, that the protestors felt egged on and a moral right to be violent. Many protestors still would think they have/had the moral right to be violent I guess.
There has been no specific condemnation of the violence against KJM & those waiting to speak. Just some non specific wiffle waffle, everyones's a winner ooops protestor type stuff from PM Hipkins & complete disregard from Marama Davidson.
Shanreagh – you expected a significant police presence but didn't suspect there might be the potential for pushing and shoving, tomato sauce and worse?
That seems contradictory.
No more than the dozens of other protests which have had a police presence. It used to be routine that, if there was a counter protest signalled (as it very clearly was in this instance), police would firmly keep the two groups apart.
Here’s an example:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/brian-tamaki-led-protests-end-after-unsuccessful-attempts-to-access-auckland-motorway/3NCLOZ35ZOE4XZJTJZTL7QQU5Y/
Nothing contradictory about that.
And, please stop minimizing the violence.
You've been repeatedly called on this.
We are not talking about pushing and shoving, or even juvenile stunts like throwing sauce. We're talking about deliberate and targeted violent assault.
So, not the sauce.
Okay.
The assault was terrible. The atmosphere was very heated.
Could that heat have been predicted?
I believe so, given the circumstances.
Do you believe otherwise?
Robert, can you please respond to this before commenting further https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02-04-2023/#comment-1943341
I've popped you in premod in the meantime.
So Robert you actually have not found this. Someone found the Germaine Greer post I had put up but she does not espouse what you said she did. So you were incorrect.
Did you predict it?
I've asked this before, and you've refused to answer.
.https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02-04-2023/#comment-1943310
If you didn't predict that there would be outright violence – how can you expect that others would?
It seems to me that you're attempting to be wise retrospectively – we all have 20/20 vision in the rear-view mirror.
And again with the minimizing: "the atmosphere was very heated"
This is coming across, yet again, as a minimization of the deliberate violent assault that occurred.
Did I predict it (proof demanded).
Was it predictable: that's my point. I believe many people predicted there would be heated behaviour at the event. Why you didn't think so, I can't say. If I'd been in an advisory position (I wasn't), I'd tell a frail person to stay away or at least, keep their distance. People in heated situations can act in unexpected ways, especially when inflamed by the words and actions of others, as well as expectations formed as the result of previous situations of the same sort (earlier rallies, events on the same grounds, meetings of "the same crew"
Ha! I never refuse to answer 🙂
So, no you didn't predict it – but seem to now expect that 'others' should have done so.
Rather a double standard, don't you think?
Can you link to explict threats of violence from the TRA protestors made in advance of the PP event? Something that would have led ‘others’ to believe that the counter-protest would descend into violence?
Does it really matter where or how [the] violence started? The issue (i.e. Robert’s issue) is that it could, not should, be foreseen. In fact, there was a challenge in Court the day before the event that centred on the likely prospect of violence erupting.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/486623/posie-parker-brings-anti-trans-violence-threat-says-advocate-as-high-court-decision-looms
The two main things I can see that affect whether the event should have been cancelled ahead of time or not are that 1) did KJK and the organisers reasonably expect the police to keep the peace and 2) the original security team pulled out at the last minute, was the replacement team up to speed?
1) yes
2) don’t know.
What happened in Hobart suggested that similar would happen here. There was discussion about this in feminist circles. I didn’t see anyone predicting the dangerous mobbing of KJK and her team, nor the violence of the kind witnessed (the punching of the elderly woman). The tomato juicing was predictable and within protest norms, the mobbing and elder assault wasn’t. It was shocking, a watershed moment for NZ and it wasn’t in any way KJK or her team’s fault or responsbility.
KJK says things in very strong terms, and much like Germaine Greer she says things in ways that shock some people. Has anyone yet explained why Greer’s or KJK’s speech should be suppressed by making an argument against specific speech beyond ‘I don’t like that, it’s offensive’?
There is an order of magnitude difference between what they say and do and what Nazis say and do.
and, I don’t think the court action beforehand was anything to do with TRA protestor actions. It was about whether KJK’s speech would incite violence against trans people. Not women.
I’m not even talking about whether it should have been cancelled or not – I would not assume to be able to judge this and neither did the actual High Court Judge. It is a moot point, anyway.
What I do feel more confident about is that the risk of political violence has increased in NZ in recent years, which is deplorable but not entirely surprising. One could point to certain events and/or developments, here or overseas, but nothing changes the fact. I’ve linked to this before: https://www.newsroom.co.nz/risk-of-political-violence-this-election-still-high-shaw. This is the context, the backdrop, which is highly relevant.
If one insists on talking specifically about the event that took place in Albert Park, I note that the one person who probably knew best what to expect of what could happen was also best prepared.
The bigger picture seems to be missed when and while people focus on a much much smaller picture even though they may consider it as some kind of symbolic or watershed moment – we seem to have those more frequently nowadays, just like record-breaking weather events …
Let’s hope this is not the new ‘normal’ but the signs are not good and it serves to take heed of [the] warnings.
Really? Your saying the rainbow advocacy groups advocate turned up in court and said if this goes ahead we will likely react violently?
Really? Your [sic] not stupid, so try not act stupid. Violence was signalled as a likely scenario in the Court case. Make of this what you will but don’t put words in other people’s mouths.
I'm pretty sure that the argument was that KJK was going to say some things and then poof (because supposed hate speech has magic powers) violence would manifest against members of the community. Now I think that's pretty ridiculous, obviously, but your talking about an argument made by someone asking she not be allowed into the country, to protect a community he's advocating for.
I really don't think he was making a prediction of what actually happened where most of the violence and intimidation was metered out by the counter protest.
We've reached the end of the 'reply' function.
This one is to @Incognito
Robert's argument was that the violence at the protest could have been predicted. And, therefore (paraphrasing) the PP event should not have gone ahead and/or 'vulnerable people' (cf the elderly lady assaulted') should have known not to attend.
I don't agree:
a) That there were specific threats of violence from the TRA against PP supporters (indeed, your own link shows their fears were the other way around; and were in general, rather than being specifically related to the PP event).
b) That there was a heightened degree of unpredictable violence which was unable to be managed by an (inexplicably absent) standard police presence. We are not talking here about the level of protest which resulted in the parliamentary occupation. This was a standard rally/counter-rally situation. The police are well-used to dealing with the security aspects of them. The most important being to keep the two sides apart.
c) That the threat of violence should ever shut down a legal rally and/or protest. Where is our freedom of speech if we accept 'thugs veto'? That is the slippery slope that I see all too many on the left sliding down.
In a style that has become typical of this pseudo-debate, you are reading way too much in a simple straightforward comment. Consequently, and consistently, you make unjustified assumptions and extrapolations and use these to steer the ‘debate’. And of course, you “don’t agree”, that goes without saying – trying to understand where others are coming from and meeting them somewhere in the middle of the debate has been discarded to make way for polarising arguing by polarised people that fuels further polarisation. Anybody who has not (yet) grazed some skin in this ongoing ‘debate’ can see this clearly.
Quite agree Belladonna.
Quite funny (if you like that kind of humour) that the push for truth is now call polarising.
See above
Thank you, Incognito, for your reasoned and balanced response. The incidence of people "re-phrasing" the words of another then responding in accordance with their own interpretation, is disturbing and has, I'll bet, caused many commenters to steer clear of the topic. There's a Gish gallop, gaslight atmosphere around this joint at the present time. Others, I believe, feel this also.
Not at all.
That used to be what the Police were there for.
To keep the pushing and shoving in check. To be on the alert for breaches of the peace that would disrupt a group of people who were lawfully exercising their rights to gather in a park to listen and share issues do with women's rights and issues.
And identify more subtle threats; inflammatory speeches, the arrival of opposing factions, unexpected events. They also have to bear in mind the influence of their own presence on some crowds. Keeping a low profile can be a strategy to maintain order, in some cases.
*I have no view about the police in this particular instance
Robert, the Police were conspicuous by their absence.
There have been complaints to the IPCA about this.
So I read.
Not sheeting that to the protesters though, are we?
The transactivists you mean? They were the ones protesting.
Most of those I respect/read have been condemning the violence used by the transactivists. I do too. The Police, belatedly, are looking at the issue and they hopefully will charge the ones breaching laws.
That is not the function of the IPCA.
The protesters, I mean.
How many protesters, Shanreagh, do you believe, used violence at the event?
And are those who did, representative of the pro-trans community?
@ Incognito & Nic the Nzer
So if transactivists say that violence will occur, are they saying that it would be the PP event attending demographic that will be causing it? because looking at the demographic in Hobart, they would have been pushing it. Some quite old, in years, looking people attending and some speakers the same. Some of the supporters who filled in for the lacking police behind the women, were at least my age.
So where was this violence going to come from?
If not the PP people then from the transactivists?
So the argument is that it is Ok to threaten the ability of women to gather & to speak because some parts of our society do not want them to? or was it a recognition that the transactivists may have lost control of those who might be attending?
So in either case women miss out because others cannot control their own violence.
Odd view
Again it seems wrapped up in the view that because 'we' cannot control ourselves you should not do this or that
That seems very like the excuses for rape or domestic violence that were responses we often heard until we started listening/thinking about the meaning of them & whether they were victim blaming.
Nothing but a series of assumptive questions and conditional hypotheticals leading to an odd conclusion followed by, of course, more assumptions that are inaccurate, at best.
The so-called debate in a nutshell. Jesus wept.
You've expressed exactly what I've been feeling, Incognito.
Ok I have been amazed that PP non attendance has let women see, in plain sight, those who have women's rights and women's issues tightly bound to their hearts and minds.
Don't you think that left wing women would also like left wing men to get it? After all this time, after all our thoughts and trying to carefully explain to get the points across over several years .
As you say
'Jesus wept'.
In this community, or micro-cosmos, that we call TS, I’d like to see building bridges and not burning bridges. One would think this would be easier (!) between politically like-minded people but almost the opposite seemed to be happening. Sometimes it helps to take a step back, a deep breath or two, and a good look at what’s happening and what we’re doing and ask ourselves if this is what we want. If the answer is “No” then we need to change and become the change we want to see here and/or elsewhere (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefigurative_politics) – we should not and cannot wait for others to act first. The choice is simple, the task/journey is not …
Plunket plunked!
“It wasn’t me who whipped up hysteria about Nazis … given the crowing from the anti-women brigade [online] I’m presuming they complained,” he said."
"Crowing" "Anti-women"
Got any supporters here, has Plunket??
https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/300845946/broadcaster-sean-plunket-suspended-from-twitter
Thankyou Incognito.
How are we to build bridges when our own Govt has brought in legislation that will allow males to have access to women's safe spaces? And our own PM does not know what a women is? (Thank you Sean Plunket)
Where does the bridge come from?
To me, a user, and sometimes a frightened user in any kind of toilet especially that is open to the public ie std public toilet, the line for me is males should not be in the safe spaces I am using. I am less uneasy in female only spaces in areas such as dept stores or picture theatres. I am most reluctant to use any unisex labelled spaces after experiencing these in two workplaces.
I reflected tonight that come June I will be required to share the female toilets at the Embassy theatre with males. How do I know they are trans if they look, sound and dress like males?
I class males as anyone with a penis, or whatever word is acceptable to RG, if penis is too harsh.
This may be all good with males. It is not all good with females and I shudder to think what elderly women with walkers or younger ones with children will feel. We just should not do these things to people.
The context of my comment was TS. The bridge comes from the people, the people who build bridges, not the ones that burn them (https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/487306/spike-in-online-hate-toward-trans-community-after-posie-parker-visit-researchers), i.e., from people like you and me. Then you, we all keep on building, and maintaining, and repairing. It requires constant work and vigil. But I might as well talk about the Fairies in Utopia instead of the good people in Eutopia …
@ Incognito
4 April 2023 at 9:30 pm
Fairies are good
Utopia is good
Aspirations are good.
Fairies are not real.
Utopia is not real.
Aspirations are not real unless they lead to actions that have tangible outcomes.
https://fee.org/articles/utopia-versus-eutopia/
@ Incognito
Dreaming/letting the mind wonder/often used in the corporate context by mind mapping to link disparate concepts is good.
Aspirations or the desired end state first then the plan to get there.
I also think that the desired state in society can be legislated for ahead of time, is that coercive? Sort of benign coerciveness?
Then we wait for society to catch up. I feel we did that in the Human Rights legislation.
I shall read the Utopia/Eutopia carefully my limited googling seemed to say they were synonyms. But clearly they are not.
Aspirations and intentions (good or bad), for example, are like that bloody tree in the forest. There is no proof of them, ever. No brain surgeon ever opened a skull and exclaimed ‘WTF! I found an aspiration!’
I used that Utopia/Eutopia quote for the second part; I should have emphasised it. Please don’t read anything [else] into it, because that was not my intention at all. You have to trust me on this because I cannot prove it to you 😉
That said, it is a fairly interesting article for a random find.
@incognito. I was not going to launch into new wave Eutopia etc…..but interesting.
Thank you.
Ps Just had a thought though, although a post mortem won’t find an intention or aspiration if you consider that a human being exists by their word/work outside their body you might find an aspiration there.
Actually I am an embroiderer/quilter/textile artist and the aspirations/intentions are often called UFOs or unfinished objects.
That wasn’t where i actually started out to go and may have blown my argument about aspirations being found extrinsically.
@ Robert Guyton.
is this really important?
What is important is that the anti women's rights protesters breached the barricades, surged forward and caused mayhem.
This the concept behind what my Dad used to say when he realised that I was not going to sit back but protest
look right
look left
and if you don't like what you see leave.
I am sure that some would have seen the danger that this was not an ordinary peaceful protest and left. And so proud of them
The ones remaining were complicit to varying degrees in the violence that followed.
I should have deleted the above 5.05pm but missed the deadline. Not a good faith question and I wasted my time/brain power answering.
Sorry
As you were Robert, someone will answer.
"I am sure that some would have seen the danger that this was not an ordinary peaceful protest and left."
That's what I'm saying.
It was not impossible/difficult to see that trouble was brewing.
Robert I apologise in advance as I'm not Shanreagh and you addressed your comment to Shanreagh. (Hmm it's almost as if I deliberately avoided using a pronoun there)
But…. I have to add my 2 cents worth. I would expect a big police presence at any public event especially where a protest is involved. This doesn't automatically assume violence.
Surely for society / the public square to function at least somewhat well there has to be an assumption of being able to hold a public event whether controversial or not without including violence to be expected as part of that assumption?
Dane’s piece was good.
@ Robert Guyton The trouble is you seem to be thinking that it is the women who wanted to listen to PP who should have left or not gone.
Those who should have left, once they had seen that there was violence afoot are those I called the transactivists. There were people from this group who were assaulting women making their way through the crowd or trying to find PP.
I don't think anyone from the transactivists group could have been unaware that the plan by some was to disrupt PP. Not just shout from a polite distance etc. And so with not policing around the band rotunda and at the barricades they took this opportunity.
Another "seem to be thinking": "The trouble is you seem to be thinking that it is the women who wanted to listen to PP who should have left or not gone."
People involved in the event; supportive attendees, antagonistic attendees, curious bystanders, political figures, controversial figures, organisers, police, security personnel, could have made all manner of choices. It was up to them. Many decisions made were poor, imo. I'm betting many women (such as yourself, I seem to recall) will have mulled over attending and decided not to go. Many people from the general public who are not women will have chosen to stay home. I wish, for the sake of her wellbeing, the woman who was hurt, had stayed home and again, for the sake of the woman who was hurt, PP had chosen a different way to convey her message.
The reason I was wavering/opting not to go, ie have my rights to free speech curtailed was because of the threats of violence and the hunch that police were going to ineffectively stand back as they did in Hobart. (I wrote/spoke to SUFW immediately after the Hobart episode to see what the Police had been saying.
I was wavering all the while between why the heck should a bunch of people who bear me & other women ill will try to stop me and then acceptance that there were people there bearing us ill will, I could not run as fast as in my youth etc.
What was also swaying me was, as I said, somehow I was still getting tweets from those involved in the parliamentary protest, many were involved in banners, food preparation, organising of loud noise-makers. I had been looking at these tweets all the way through the PP (it helped dispel 'the happy just making a point' protestors myth)
Some of the anti women comments were bordering on unhinged
I had also witnessed the demonstration against the Springbok tour outside the Parliament Gates in Molesworth st. A work colleague & I (waiting for our buses) saw police, bottling the protestors up against a hard police line at the intersection of Hill & Molesworth sts while guiding them away from Lambton Quay. Civic Square where PP was to speak although a wonderful town square space was ideal for protestors /police to bottle us up into an increasingly smaller space.
By Saturday morning I had resolved to look at the PP events in Auckland and make my mind up after that.
Again victim blaming Robert.
You are continuing to miss the point that women should be free to attend such events and make our own judgements about the message. Women should not have to confine themselves to homes because of the fear of people exercising the thug's veto.
You will recall that when the SUFW tried to hire a Manawatu venue to let women know about the No Debate issue that they were taken to court with a highly organised and funded group of people while SUFW figuratively scurried round organising cake stalls. SUFW won the court case. The group had tried to say SUFW were a hate group.
https://www.franksogilvie.co.nz/news/case-brief-whitmore-v-palmerston-north-city-council
Imagine this played out against the ACC & WCC councils.
The venues were chosen as public spaces.
"Again victim blaming Robert."
"Victim blaming" must mean something very different to you than it does to me, Shanreagh.
I'm NOT saying or implying that the victim of the violence at the PP meeting brought it on herself, which seems to be your interpretation. I'm saying I wish she hadn't been hurt at all. It's not her fault she was hurt. You believe, I think, that she should be free to go wherever she pleases, safely. So do I, but wise counsel can help prevent trouble. You did plenty of research before deciding not to attend. I wonder what you might have advised that woman, had she asked you beforehand?
If, upon reading my explanation here, you still see victim blaming, I'll have to fold on the issue, as I respect your judgement and sincerity.
Victim blaming is not being able to make the free choice to be there or if having made the free choice then something bad happens.
I wear a skirt walking along a street to my car at night. Apparently I am 'silly, unwise' to have done this. That is victim blaming.
I think we can safely say we disagree on what victim blaming is.
I have found that people sometimes victim blame because they wrap up two concepts into one. Not sure I can fully explain but here goes.
1 in the scheme of things should I be able to walk to my car along a street, being obviously female at night?
of course
2 facing the reality that it is an unequal world for women out there could I take some mitigation measure that might affect my risk?
of course there is that possibility that some thing you might lessen your risk.
3 Should these measures I take derogate from the premise that I should be able to walk freely in a street to my car at night without taking them
Of course not.
Re the woman. I am a competent researcher, I am retired and have time to research. I found the levle of agression mainly through fortuitous unexplored Twitter follows that I amassed before and during the parliamentary protest. She may not have had that available to her.
In fact the thing that would have swayed me & maybe the woman was that the Police were not going to be there, as of old, policing against breaches of the peace.
If they had been told it was going to be 10 security guards protecting the speaker and nobody else. people may have thought, I may not be able to protect myself against thugs if there is no policing.
My view is that had the police advised they were not going to be there then many may have decided it was too dangerous to go.
It would also been very explicit in showing how policing may work for some in crowds but not for all.
"Victim blaming is not being able to make the free choice to be there or if having made the free choice then something bad happens."
Apologies, Shanreagh, but that makes no sense to me.
Please just try.
If you 'should not go' in the words of those who say they know best and then you do go and do that scenario.
You do go, something bad happens to you, the 'should not goes' pile in and say 'oh but you should not have gone', that is victim blaming. That is not blaming the society we live in, the people who walk the street making others feel unsafe, the lack of policing etc. It totally blames the victim
She should have investigated, should have worked off a hunch that the police were going to be a no show should have…she should have, should have ……
That is victim blaming.
As I said before we do have a different concept of victim blaming.
You don't get to be my age to see how it is often used against women, though it is getting better.
So now we don't allow defence lawyers to bring evidence of a woman being sexually active in rape trials, so blamed as she brought it on herself, many look beyond the facile 'oh she shouldn't have been walking home or to the car or anywhere'
So accepting there was free will, the woman went to the event, she was beaten up. The victim blamers then say 'oh but she shouldn't have made a decision exercising her free will with the best knowledge she had because…..because…because. But she did go . 'Oh yes but she shouldn't have, why did she go? And on it goes.
PS Hopefully you are better able than PM Hipkins at identifying what a woman is. He’s made NZ a laughing stock around the world. In a week or so of continual laughter and OMG from overseas commentators. It is sad.
'Seem to be thinking'.
Robert your questions, to me, are often fair from clear, you often don't respond when asked a question. I venture to suggest that the issue would have died down to a simmer had you not come along with your again, to me, opaque questions.
As you are often a quirky, polished and competent poster on here many of us have persisted with your questions as we thought it was a way of sharing knowledge. I was mistaken. The knowledge we have passed on has not been used as a spring board. It has been ignored. Meanwhile we have been asked to grapple with victim blaming statements as if they were of equal merit to other comments.
The Socratic type method only works when the questioner exhibits good faith and has a knowledge of the topic.
Was discussing this with some friends and interesting things were said in regards to 'what is keeping men out of the fight for women's rights'.
My two female friends were adamant as to their opinion on this matter and I pretty much feel the same They firmly believe that it is because in particular young men have grown up in an environment that doesn't encourage such action in any way, shape or form.
Young men in the last couple of decades have been told to shut up when it comes to anything to do with women. They are being told that women don't need men to protect them and further don't need men full stop.
They are told that to risk rejection and humiliation in trying to chat up a girl they fancy is akin to sexual assault. They are taught that masculinity is toxic and that women in our society are oppressed by males. They observe that nobody cares about how dangerously low boy's educational achievement is becoming as long as the girls are doing well….
The list could go on and on but you get my point. I can easily see how a confused young man could be afraid to speak up for women because he may get told off for being sexist or that women don't need his help, etc
Personally I can remember three specific occasions where I have stepped in to prevent violence against women the first time was in my teens (years ago…) at a party where I tried to prevent a girl being kicked and stomped on by a bunch of thugs I ended up being bottled and got a bit of a kicking but she was ok and was really appreciative of my help (no not like that get your mind out of the gutter) on the second occasion I stopped a guy beating up his girlfriend outside our local and spent a night in the cells for my troubles (but no charges were laid and I was released the next morning)
On the third occasion the girl I was trying to help ended up jumping on me and started hitting me as well as her violent partner having a go at me ! I managed to escape fairly easily and left them to it.
I found out later that this is bizarrely quite a common thing where the woman being attacked ends up attacking the guy harming her boyfriend. I'm guessing there's probably underlying psychological and / ot logical reasons for this maybe?
Regardless, these bad experiences haven't deterred me and there have been a number of other episodes. I will still intercede if I see a man attacking or hitting a woman. That's how I was bought up and was the way my group of friends all thought as well. In fact I try and stop any violence from occurring nowadays whether the victim is a woman or a man. Funnily enough working on the door at a nightclub has also moulded this 'need' to become involved.
I must emphasise that my involvement has always been with the intent to stop the violence or at least to protect the victim and I've become pretty good at it over the years finding that the majority of the time, people can be talked down as long as they haven't had really excessive amounts of alcohol.
Anyway, I would assume also that fear will prevent many men from getting involved especially in modern times where men never learn nor are taught how to fight or how to project their physicality because 'toxic masculinity'. So when confronted with physical violence they are simply to fearful to do anything which is a perfectly normal reaction.
Anyway, just a few thoughts on the topic. Nothing too dinosaur like I hope!
Good points Michael.
We need physically support and we also need the support from the brains of good thinking men.
David Limbrick an Aussie MP talks to Sall Grover
'About Sall Grover: Sall Grover is the founder & CEO of Giggle, a female-only social networking app. Prior to the launch of the platform, trans activists “cancelled” it, labelling it “transphobic” because it is only for biological women. Sall advocates for womens sex based rights to female spaces & sport, and highlights the conflicts between gender ideology and reality.'
Some good comments as well.
Nice, well worth the watch.
Neil Oliver?
Neil "Music is woke. Not being racist is woke. Genders are woke. Sprouts are woke. Football is woke. TV is woke. Wood is woke. Chips are woke. Woke is woke. WOKE, WOKE and more WOKE…" Oliver?
The once respectable TV presenter who had a mid life crisis, re-emerging looking like a two dollar shop Charles Manson? That Neil Oliver?
This unhinged fucking idiot Neil Oliver? Jesus spare me.
He should have stuck to archaeology.
Who woulda thunk it?
/
https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1641779403662192640
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/mar/30/vulkan-files-leak-reveals-putins-global-and-domestic-cyberwarfare-tactics
What evidence is there that the Vulkan files were leaked to Wikileaks?
Unless that can be provided the post is meaningless.
More to the point, a 2022 list of jailed journalists throughout the world , compiled by The Committee to Protect Journalists, does not include the name of one Julian Assange
https://harpers.org/archive/2023/03/alternative-facts-how-the-media-failed-julian-assange/
Time that these attempts to smear Assange and Wikileaks stopped
Walks like a duck…but sure, meaningless..
https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/17/wikileaks-turned-down-leaks-on-russian-government-during-u-s-presidential-campaign/
Did you find any evidence the Vulkan file had been sent to Wikileaks?
For what it is worth the Australian High Commissioner is finally making a formal visit to Assange.
Finally
It will be the first time the Wikileaks founder has accepted a consular visit since November 2019, and the first time a high commissioner has met with the Australian behind bars.
"Shortly after I arrived here, his father approached me requesting that I visit Mr Assange," Mr Smith told SBS News.
"Through his lawyers, Mr Assange agreed to that visit and I welcome that very much.
"We have made, before my arrival, over 40 offers to provide consular assistance, none of which he has taken up. That's not said critically, that's just a fact, but I’m very pleased he has agreed to my request to see him."
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/what-could-a-prison-visit-from-australias-new-uk-high-commissioner-mean-for-julian-assange/z8q8o0byw
I have to guess that for some undisclosed reason there is reason to think there might be a useful outcome this time.
Exactly, it wasn't as if the Australian government was ever doing their utmost to support Assange, or challenge the US decision to prosecute him .I'm not surprised Assange had no great confidence in the high commissioner.
not much discussion I can find about the muppet show with special guest leader chris luxon, whoops, I mean the national partys policy announcement about electrifying the economy. It's certainly good to see them actually release some policy, even it's a continuation of "what the other guy said". And I guess it's good to see National actually having something to try and address climate change, rather than just "continue with what the last guy did but do nothing else". One wonders if they will have the gonads to face down the likes of ground swell and tell them no more kicking the can down the road, or whether we will see the same national party of the past 20 years. Accept He Waka Eke Noa and get on with implementing it, accepting that it is only a start and much more still remains to be done
Expect a National Party of old if they have their way. What'll be new is a huge purge of Labour Party policy and legislation. Usually an incoming National Party is a continuation of Labour initiatives with a few minor changes as you have pointed out.
But it's not really about National. It's about ACT. ACT has promised it won't be business as usual for those pompous Tories if they are to enter into coalition. I believe them!
As for the ''muppet show'', that moniker belongs to Labour. They have pissed away a massive come back after Jacinda had the good sense to bugger off and let Chippy take over. A few weeks ago Labour had parity with National. Regardless of what the polls show, and barring Luxon being arrested for drug trafficking, Labour are gone at the next election. Robbo has basically said there won't be any more personal goodies in the upcoming budget for supporters.
My question is ''Why does National want to win the election? Have they a death wish? This country is in terminal decline and neither major party will be able to fix it. If I was Luxon l'd play golf and leave the hard stuff for Chippy. Unfortunately politics doesn't work that way. Everyone believes they have the answers
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/131559145/getting-the-basics-right-grant-robertson-on-the-budget-jam-and-what-keeps-him-up-at-night.
There was a guest on RNZ The Panel on Friday – Professor Ralph Simms – who pretty much indicated most of the ideas in Nationals new policy especially re consents are already in process. So as per nothing new, mostly hot air.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/thepanel/audio/2018884165/the-panel-with-jenni-giblin-and-allan-blackman-part-1
Mana Wāhine Kōrero posted this livestream this afternoon:
Waiheke Women Will Speak
https://www.youtube.com/live/pgW3zQ–HSk?feature=share
Here's an interesting local military technology that even NZ can afford – a good way to beat the entry costs of bringing our military up to speed with evolving drone warfare – Ozzie built cardboard drones.
Did this news item emerge on April 1st.
Two days ago – so, no.
Cardboard is quite a sensible material for finite use drones – light, robust, cheap, easy to fabricate.
The average lifespan of a reconnaissance drone in the Ukraine is apparently four sorties, so these cardboard drones – delivered in their hundreds in flat packs – make perfect sense. And of course, loitering munitions (AKA kamikaze drones) go on one way missions.
Of course! brilliant!
I was totally taken in by this one:
Reminiscent of the orange traffic cones that Fulton Hogan advised us about on 1/4/23?
(As well as the sarcasm emoji we need a 'taps side of nose' emoji as well.)
PS what a joy to hear the laughter though.
PPS I have actually used that sticky black stuff. The remains of a tin was given to me by a plumber & I have been eking it out since..
Cotton caulking!
That's what I'm talking about!
It ought to be oakum – oakum is a byproduct of a linen industry. Linen is harder wearing than cotton, and better for the soil.
These fibres are exciting! How about … hemp??
Harakeke – Phormium tenax?
Hara (not) keke (pandanas).
Linum usitatissimum.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flax
Dammit any of them! & What are we doing? None of 'em – not even the unsustainable cotton 🙁
I have followed this astonishing rebuild right form the outset about five years ago. What the team have done is a real insight into how our forefathers tackled work like this; how challenging it was and how smart and tough they were in dealing with the limitations of the materials they had to hand.
While the prank is obvious in hindsight, they managed to lead many people deep into the hoax before the penny dropped. If they were like me they were sus that something wasn't right – but it was so well executed I have to say I was taken in.
At least up to the point where the chainsaw came out.
As for the calking – oakum was an option, but apparently cotton suits this purpose better. I’m not sure why. You should have seen them doing the hull – that was way more massive.
I was waiting for the door…….and the wait did not let me down.
Good old Germaine Greer.
'She said: “Just because you lop off your d**k and then wear a dress doesn't make you a ******* woman. I’ve asked my doctor to give me long ears and liver spots and I’m going to wear a brown coat but that won’t turn me into a ******* cocker spaniel.\
Yes right.
In 2015
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/germaine-greer-defends-grossly-offensive-comments-about-transgender-women-just-because-you-lop-off-your-d-k-doesn-t-make-you-a-woman-a6709061.html
I know a man who believes he's Jesus Christ implementing the long awaited '2nd coming'. He lives in a lunatic asylum.
What is the difference between a man who thinks he's Jesus Christ, and a man who is convinced he's really woman?
Well that is the really sad thing Mikesh.
Many of the younger ones troubled by concerns over how they present to the world may not be adequately recognised or cared for under our current health or mental health initiatives. At this age group (teens) there is an almost over whelming peer preference for receiving information.
What really worries me though is the pre teens, pre puberty where the sole access to information may be through Mum or Dad who might be concerned about their tomboy daughter or gentle souled arty boy. These are ghastly stereotypes….I can hardly bear to think that people would still be concerned by them.
I have not read very much but there are concerns about the competency of some of the gate-keeping and consent-obtaining practices in organisations running transition clinics.
As far as the other end is concerned Autogynephilia*, this has a later onset, apparently. Many of these paraphilias are non threatening to others. This one though to me has the potential to be a bit more than bothersome in the current climate when perhaps the apogee is to dress plus try to use female spaces…..much to the concern of the women there who can mostly usually tell that there is male present. Women have great concerns about any male being in these spaces.
Perhaps those who push the boundaries (being a nuisance or sexually misbehaving) there may need psychiatric treatment.
The point though is most women do not want all these experiments going on in their safe spaces, we don't need things to actually go wrong before we recognise that they are wrong.
*is defined as a male's propensity to be sexually aroused by the thought of himself as a female. It is the paraphilia that is theorized to underlie transvestism and some forms of male-to-female (MtF) transsexualism.
Really sad (well at least sad to me) story here – which may illustrate the pressures teens are under.
I have a friend who has a 15-year-old daughter. Lovely kid. A bit quirky. Some neurodiversity.
Badly bullied at school (difference is targeted like sharks after blood) – mostly by girls. [The unwillingness of schools to deal with bullying effectively has a heck of a lot to do with adolescent anxiety IMO]
I'd say probably lesbian – but struggling with emerging sexuality (as many of us have in our teen years). [And, being sexually attracted to the people who are bullying you, is a deeply confusing experience]
Highly supportive socially left-wing family.
No support from the state system in or out of school. Bullying not dealt with. No mental health support. No counselling. Zip.
Comes 'out' as transgender. New gender, new name, new identity. Suddenly, support is coming out of the woodwork! Bullying at school is firmly stamped on. Counselling is offered. Mental health is supported.
Now, I'm not suggesting she's lying. But for a kid who is confused and experimenting with sexuality – transgender has offered a heck of a lot more social validation and psychological support, than lesbianism did.
Maybe it depends where you are and how panicked the school is.
I have family working in this bullying/sexual preference/trans-gender space and frankly they have zero interest in differentiating between the differences or steering anyone in any direction.
They just help try and resolve the bullying and make the place safe for the student or employee.
Some schools and workplaces have no gay people at their school or workplace and therefore require no help – they are pretty quick to ask for help if someone is trans-gender – that is too difficult for them to cope with. It may not be that help wasn't available previously it may be that the school didn't see an issue (and I don't see why students should have to state their sexual preference to get help for bullying anyway – it isn't any of the schools damn business) but now it is panic britches.
In this case, the only thing that changed about the student and their needs, was the transgender element.
The student and family had been begging the school for help with the bullying issue for at least 2 years. No action. When he becomes transgender, it's suddenly a priority for the school to deal with…..
Exactly my point. It isn't that help was not available previously.
Perhaps we're talking past each other – but the help wasn't available to her previously. Despite the desperate attempts of her parents.
It might have been in theory, but in practice, …. zip.
But now, he has:
The list goes on.
You'll have read this?
https://politicalbytes.blog/2023/04/02/class-transphobia-and-street-democracy/
“I agree that Kelly-Jay Keen is not a fascist. But there are indications that she is nearly a fascist, and precisely the sort of person that good people would wish to shut up.”
“• Kelly-Jay Keen has fulminated against school-girls wearing burkas as “Not British”
• She has tried to whip up Islamophobia in Bradford, where fascism is rife.
• She has publicly praised Tommy Robinson, clearly an English fascist.
• And most recently when open fascists have supported her, Kelly-Jay Keen has refused to reject that support, for example at her Melbourne event.”
Curious claims, if true.
I'm failing to see what that has to do with the point we're discussing here. Nothing to do with KJK.
This:
"The argument for transgender women threatening women’s rights is difficult to comprehend. It appears to rest on threatening biological women in their space in public toilets. Now as a cis male (I don’t like that term) I’m unfamiliar with women’s toilets. However, I assume that they are the same as male toilets minus a urinal.
That is, one enters, goes into a small cubicle, does one’s business, comes out, washes ones hands (hopefully) and then departs. The common toilet space is not designed to want users to stay. There is no market for a barista to be inside selling coffee. Unless I’m missing something, I’m struggling to see how these could be spaces providing opportunities for violation.
While this logic appears absurd, the underlying premise is horrible. That is, the dishonest, unsubstantiated and bigoted accusation that trans women are inherently aggressive. Hasn’t that been said about others before!"
https://politicalbytes.blog/2023/04/02/class-transphobia-and-street-democracy/
Oh boy.
You're missing something (quite a bit actually, but start with this one)
https://www.scotsman.com/regions/edinburgh-fife-and-lothians/female-spaces-need-better-protection-after-trans-woman-sex-assault-girl-say-campaigners-140883
Remember, under self-ID law, trans-women need to simply declare they are women. This has thrown the door wide open to sexual predators (that is men who like to sexually assault women and girls) – to camouflage themselves as 'trans-women' in order to do so in spaces which used to be women only.
There is case, after case, after case, in jurisdictions which have enacted the self-ID law.
That quote is a really good reason for why men need to listen to women more, and in this case, gender critical women.
Women are not men minus something. I know he didn't say that, but it was close. Women's toilets aren't the same as men's minus urinals. We have different bodies and different social experiences. That's the whole frigging point.
A non-comprehensive list of things that women do in toilets which mean we require female only spaces.
the usual peeing and pooing.
managing menstruation: changing tampons or pads, cleaning a menstrual cup, washing clothing with blood on it, resting, waiting out pain, vomiting.
miscarrying babies (yes, there's been whole twitter conversations about this where women have shared that the place they ended up having their miscarriage was a public toilet and how important it as to be in a female space).
changing clothing.
talking with other women.
the energy of male free space.
I get that many men won't understand why any of that matters, but support for women shouldn't be dependent upon that. We have a right to our own culture, spaces and rights simply because we exist.
There are most definitely safety issues. From males, be they men or TW. Self ID means that any man can say they are a woman at any time and this is to be accepted and supported. There's no evidence to suggest that TIMs don't have the same patterns of male violence that other men do. No-one is saying that TW are inherently violent, any more than we are saying that men are inherently violence. Women cannot predict in advance which males will be violent or intrusive, hence we have female only spaces.
There's a whole genre of porn based on women's toilets. There's an increase in the UK in men filming women in women's toilets and changing rooms. Teen girls are being harassed in gender neutral spaces. TIMs are masturbating in women's spaces and posting this online
And there are dignity and privacy issues.
Some more while with children or elderly women.
Waiting with the door open, talking while a littlie goes wees or poos complete with the encouraging sounds we make or talk while said child goes to the toilet. On completion checking child, wiping child, arranging child's clothes, holding child, and semi closing the door while you yourself may go to the loo.
Same with elderly women, they may have a walker, a prolapse, continence issues, they may be in a rush.
So while they may go in a toilet with the door shut, often you are there outside, especially if continence pads or pants need changing. So helping them with these, helping to arrange clothes, may be outside of the confines of the cubicle.
So if someone has a walker it can be awkward, my mother felt she did not want to go to the disabled toilet as she felt these needed to be kept free for those with a real need while we/she managed with grace, chat (with other women) etc in the regular women's toilets.
Some women's toilets have the baby change table there. Some mothers do not want adult males there because of perving or surreptitious photographing of their babies. Some more spacious toilets/restrooms may have a separated lounge area (some department stores have these) where women may like to use the quiet space to breastfeed a baby. Again not an area they want males in.
The whole area of female grooming. updating makeup. some I have seen doing a complete makeup and clothes change after work ready to go out. Right down to day time makeup removal, cleansing etc & then new makeup together with tweezers and eyelash curlers. Sometimes the clothes are changed out in the open ie not in a cubicle if these are crowded, women help others do up zips etc.
In my more regular socialising days I have been a guard to an unknown woman who had rushed to the loo to get away from a man. She described him and I scouted around outside to make sure he had gone before leaving with her to go back to the bar.
I have been part of a group helping an unknown woman who had either had a drink spiked with vodka or drugs. She made a rush for the toilets. Women are can be at their most vulnerable to assaults when this happens to them. Several of us stayed with her, calmed her while others alerted the female bar staff. some stayed with her until she was past the worst of her drugged state.
A female flatmate was assaulted in a public toilet, beaten by a man who was in there before she could get her wits about her and run away. Then, as it was before the days of assigning a victim support person she was called on at some excruciatingly early hour the next day by Policemen wanting to take her back to the place before she was properly dressed. She had to put a duffle coat on over her pyjamas. She knew he was not supposed to be there but now male looking, male clothes who knows.
My solution is not to stop trans people using toilets but to look at the design of toilets so separate spaces are available. M.F, for people with a disability, unisex perhaps.
And another. Walking into a woman's toilet in a dept store.. A woman in her under clothes while her two friends flapped her outer clothes/their coats to try and cool her being in the the throes of a hot flush.
As we knew this was a female only space we were able to help her preserve her dignity while recognising her distress. Lots of caring murmurs and a few wry comments.
Would this happen in a mixed sex toilet where adult males went? I don't think so.
Enforcing this ability for males to go to female toilets shrinks our female world immeasurably.
Shanreagh, may I ask if you've listened to Kim Hill's interview of PP and what you made of PP's claims that billionaires are, through their involvement with the trans movement, attempting to destroy the fabric of society, or words to that effect?
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018883114/anti-transgender-activist-on-stoush-around-her-entering-nz
You're deflecting. The quote you posted wasn't about PP, it was about the profoundly ignorant claim that men in women's toilets were not a threat to biological women.
Robert, would you mind letting us know that you have read and understood the replies to your quote and link, from Shanreagh, LB and myself?
Has someone looked into the possibility of Roberts account being hacked? He seems uncharacteristically troll like for several days now. Maybe someone guessed his email and started posting in his persona?
I'll look into it now. He's just not unreservedly supporting the transexclusioryfeministradicalTSwomen the way he should! He's so opaque and troll-like!
Emotional junior staffer
Just want to add another woman's voice to this issue.
I am a cis-gendered woman, who has used women's bathrooms her entire life. The idea that trans women pose a real risk to other women in bathrooms is fantasy.
"It appears, just as with the homophobia and racism that dictated who could access public spaces in the 20th century, that we are seeing a return to discrimination and control of public spaces dictated by fear that has its origins in prejudice and ignorance. That trans people’s access to their public spaces, and to use the bathroom, is up for ‘debate’ is a regressive step."
Shanreagh and Weka – do you see any similarity between the reasons you give for why trans women should not be allowed in women's bathrooms, and those given in the 20th century for why women of colour should not share the same bathroom as white women?
"This is not some abstract issue, it is a matter of immediate public safety for transgender people. All human beings need to be able to access public bathrooms, and those bathrooms need to be places of safety and security. Trans people by every measure are at the greatest risk of violence when made to use the wrong bathroom, and are the only group society considers it acceptable to deny the use of these public spaces at all."
The quotes above are from this article written by another woman: – https://www.gendergp.com/transgender-bathrooms-discrimination-2022/
Probably some of the females present can better comment than me. I don't think the issue is trans women per say. Its the change in societal convention to self id. There are unfortunately a significant number of males who will take advantage of self id to violate previously female only spaces. I wouldn't say they are likely actually transgender but if the standard is self id then who is to say.
There is not really a solution to this. Either you have some more preventative rules about how such people change how they are treated (like seeking permission from an employer to now use other bathrooms in a work place, which is how this presently works). Or if you go with self id then you need to accept that the transgender category includes all the male bad faith actors by construction.
Provision for women's single-sex spaces was not because of perceived differences in race, or sexual orientation. The discrimination applied to both race and sexual orientation was due to prejudice, not supported by data.
Single-sex provisions are because there are material, practical, privacy, dignity, fairness and safety reasons that returns value to all for such categories.
Safety is only one factor for the provision of single-sex spaces but since it is the one you focus on, let's address it:
1. Safeguarding is based on risk assessment statistics. That evidence provides the criteria for the best broad stroke categories that will significantly reduce the likelihood of harm for all users. In cases where users are in various states of undress or vulnerable, the provision category that provides the best outcomes is that of sex.
2. Therefore, the continuation of the benefit is reliant on maintaining single-sex spaces.
3. A compelling argument supported by robust evidence is required before single-sex provisions should be relinquished.
4. What kind of evidence should be part of the discussion?
a. Are men who identify as women included in current safeguarding statistics? (Yes.)
b. Is there evidence that men who identify as women pose a significantly lower risk than any other man? (No, statistically they hold the same risk factor. In fact, in terms of convictions, their risk for sexual offences is higher than men without gender identities)
c. Are they are higher degrees of risk if they continue to use the single-sex provision that they belong to? (There has never been any evidence put forward that this is the case, it is often an assumption that other men are unable to cope with a non-conforming male.)
d. If they are at higher degree or risk, is it higher than other vulnerable males? (ie. unaccompanied children, males with mobility issues, males impaired by substance abuse, homeless males, males with mental incapacity etc. I can think of many men who are vulnerable in ways that Alex Drummond from Stonewall is not, and they still respect the boundaries of single-sex provision)
e. That vulnerability – when it is finally evidenced and defined – still must be of such statistical significance that it outweighs the benefits (in terms of safeguarding only) of division by sex.
People within the transgender community are being treated equally to everyone else when they are expected to respect the social contract and boundaries of single-sex provisions.
They are not excluded in any way, because they are included with all others of their sex, in those single-sex provisions.
Yes. As mentioned provision divided by sex, delivers that to a high degree.
This is rhetoric unless it is supported by robust and impartially collected statistical data. Have you got any?
Not true. They can use the public space of their sex category without impediment.
"I’m struggling to see how these could be spaces providing opportunities for violation."
Of course you are.
"In February 2018 Katie Dolatowski filmed a 12-year-old-girl who was using the toilet in a female bathroom at a supermarket in Dunfermline. A month later, he sexually assaulted a 10-year-old girl in the women’s toilets at a supermarket in Kirkcaldy. He grabbed the terrified child by the face, forced her into a cubicle and ordered her to take off her clothes, threatening to stab her if she did not comply."
"Hannah Tubbs sexually assaulted a 10-year-old girl in the women’s bathroom of a California fast-food restaurant. He followed the child into the ladies’ toilet, grabbed her by the throat and forced her into a cubicle where he sexually assaulted her."
There are plenty more examples.
You did recognise the the quotation marks indicate that the statement was not mine?
You posted it Robert. Are you trying to suggest you didn't agree with it?