Winston is on the election warpath. He's going to deal with errant Maori and eliminate all forms of wokery from government. But, I've always found amongst the bluster and bs that is Winston, there's usually a gem of a policy to be found. This time around it's his suggestion to make it a criminal offence to obstruct or assault emergency first responders. Winston probably got that idea from a similar British law that's recently been updated allowing up to two years jail for offenders.
In my experience offenders in NZ fall mainly into two groups: snotty nose middleclass white kids who have never been told 'no,' or feral gang bangers who threaten emergency workers with assault or death if they don't fix their bro on the spot.
The police response in those incidents has always bemused me. Police don't generally arrest offenders on the spot, but try moving them on multiple times.
A major tidal energy project is up and running in the Orkneys: see https://orbitalmarine.com/o2/
It is a floating turbine system that seems innovative. Its rotors can provide power no matter which way the tide is running.
Shouldn't we be doing the same thing in NZ? There must be a likely site in Cook Strait where there are strong currents.
Coupled with Wellington's wind farms, it could mean a huge reduction in reliance on fossil fuels.
HT, Thanks for the topic and link. There must be a multitude of sites around Aotearoa for such turbines. Basically 4 times a day guaranteed output that could be used in conjunction with our hydro storage.
Thank you. I call it out wherever I see it. And you are right, there are groups that use it -often disguised, to indicate that this is a group for women, not for sex mimics. I belong to a crafting group that uses the initials – which was set up when obvious autogynephiliac men invaded a couple of knitting and crochet groups demanding that we "validate" their "femaleness" and their various self modeled constructions.
I really don't believe in banning words. If people want to call me a terf, that is up to. them. It usually alerts to the fact that they have no good arguements re gender ideology and is part of a playbook of no debate and smearing. But I appreciate your point Shanreigh.
I commented on Mickey Savages post "debating with Nazis" that I was reading an interesting book called Bad Arguements (its a compilation of 100 arguements writtern by various phiolosphy academics). One was about when people bring Hitler and Nazis into a debate. Those who bring up Nazis in an arguement are seen as conceding defeat of the arguement. I tend to regard Terf the same way. Although I do like the commenter who suggested Terf be changed to Perf (Penis exclusionary radical feminist)
A replacement word will soon be found to dehumanise the "other", so let it continue. The accusations also lose their potency, when universally applied.
People who believe in polite and productive discussion tend to avoid inflammatory words or words that deliberately misrepresent the position of others. I do not call people "Nazis", I try to avoid "fascist", though I might use "proto-fascist" to suggest a tendency. I do not call people "TERFs" and I do not refer to transwomen as "he", though I might if the trans identity was clearly an intentional ruse.
However, none of this is the point. I don't imagine for a minute that my personal beliefs are grounds for policing the English lexicon.
There have been some excellent responses so far all of which I agree with.
The best argument is that allowing the word does let us easily identify the bad faith commentators as most good faith commentators would use (sic) or other words to distance themselves from the slur.
it doesn't get used that often on TS as a slur. Where people use it as a descriptor I point out the problems and link to terfisaslur. I have also moderated on its use and will continue to do so. If you see someone using it, you can reply to any comment of mine with a link and I will take a look.
It's a common tactic, using words that aren't 100 % accurate but are about the vibe.
For example using anti-vaxxer to describe attendees of the Parliament Grounds protest, regardless of how often it was pointed out how inaccurate it was.
I use/d anti vax/anti vaxxer as a shorthand to describe people who were not getting the vaccination, ie for non medical reasons, did not want others to and thought that by offering vaccinations that Govt was over reaching in some way. Not to mention the people who had been deluded by various people saying the vaccines had nanobots, magnets, trackers etc. I also could not see why being anti vaccination also often meant being anti wearing a mask
To me the protection of sick people in hospital, older people in rest homes, children was more important to the country as a whole during the time of the emergency powers used in the pandemic. These were more important than to cater for people who did not believe the science.
I think in less fraught times we are more accepting of those with this type of view.
The parliamentary protest was a gathering of all sorts of people who felt they had a grievance. Not just those concerned about Covid.
Hence my dad's advice to me when he knew he could not stop me marching. protesting
'Have a look to the left of you , have a look to the right of you
If you don't like what you see, leave'
People coat tail onto to causes.
Using words like T**f, a word used by the transgender community (around 3% perhaps) of the population) to describe 51% of the population seems a little different to me.
As weka explained in another thread, banning is mostly for behaviour (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-01-04-2023/#comment-1943140). I think we can tolerate offensive words in robust debate, even when they’re not (at all) necessary and/or can be avoided. The seriousness of being offensive depends on context, intent, and perception. That said, in rare occasions we temporarily put words or word combinations in the Auto-Moderation list (filter) to pre-emptively capture comments from problematic comments who show recidivist behaviour (i.e. they won’t listen or are slow-learners). (NB sometimes, the word itself is not offensive but highly idiosyncratic of the offending commenter). If it is serious enough, we leave a Mod note in the comment when we release it from the Auto-Mod queue. When things settle down again, we remove the word, also because it creates extra work for the Mods. NB most bans are preceded by at least one warning because we encourage positive behaviour and prefer not to ban. You may also have noticed that occasionally we delete serious insults in comments and mark this by [deleted]. This can be for various reasons too, but generally it is to avoid the start of flame wars, without actually changing the content of the comment. I think we have it about right on this site
I agree TS has it about right. I was sick & tired of reading that word repeated ad nauseam by people who really should know better if they were aware of the issues (not on TS so much but other places)
I am now accepting that to leave it & mark it say is better to identify the bad from the good.
A woman, Katrina Biggs, with 'But the Emperor has no clothes' look at the violence against women, women's issues and how this has culminated in the award of Young NZer of the Year to an anti women, anti women's rights, anti freech speech advocate
She concludes:
It seems that being an arsehole is still no barrier to getting a prestigious award, but being a woman who doesn’t want men in her or her daughters’ spaces gets your life put in danger. Good to know that the world hasn’t tilted on its’ axis too much.
The people primarily to blame are, obviously, those making threats and committing violence. But they are enabled by all those who praise the violence, or who say that although they don’t condone it, they understand why the people these women are trying to exclude (aka men) might want to lash out.
It’s really dangerous, and for the first time since stumbling on the nonsense of trans ideology five years ago, I’m seriously worried. It’s not just the glorification of violence against women in trans-rights forums—the posing with guns and t-shirts reading “TERFs get the wall”. It’s the intimidation recast as social justice (Pink News literally described those threatening agitators outside the Lesbian Project, led by an attempted* murderer, as a “joyful pro-trans protest”). And presiding over it all are the idiot politicians, academics and journalists who smear people like Posie, Kathleen and Julie by calling them “anti-trans” rather than pro-women—and then quickly link them to every sort of bigotry, up to Naziism.
Yes a lot of peope on TS don't read the Daily Blog, but Martyn wrote a column on this and the comments were full of people saying they will withdraw their accounts from Kiwibank.
As a KB customer, I hope Grant Robertson will bail the bank out if it fails due to a rush on money..
It is truly disgusted that Lal was awarded young NZ of the year. He never condemned the violence, does anyone know if he was more actively involved in it?
Of what Lal et al don't realize is that this is that this provides another wake up call for all those members of the genneral public who haven't quite realized how anti women trans rights activists are.
Its not the trans protesters that I find objectionable, its the capture of a valid message espoused by Terf women by their misogynistic, transphobic, homophobic Nazi support crew. Surely the antithesis of feminism.
"…me and Molly appear to have got the wrong end of the stick"
I asked questions of psych nurse to clarify – whereas you made an assumption – and ran with it – so you include me in your pseudo-acknowledgement above?
Molly, psych nurse's comment was straightforward and easily comprehended.
Sometimes when we hold fixed views on an issue and we rush to defend a position, it gets in the way of good comprehension, especially when we are reading.
"Sometimes when we hold fixed views on an issue and we rush to defend a position, it gets in the way of good comprehension, especially when we are reading."
Link to where I made any comment in this thread based on assumption.
Or preferably, take heed of your own words, because I am not the one who needs them.
I wondered at your criticism of my reading comprehension and so tested myself with psych nurse's comment. I was pleased by the result. You might reflect upon your own response.
Robert, if you expect me to retract my justified criticisms of your engagement methods, then you'll be waiting a while.
If you persist in asking me to apologise – for something I did not do – just because The Al1en did apologise for something he did, then, again, you'll be waiting a while.
Deal with your hurt feelings resulting from my comments either by giving them no merit, or by considering if they do indeed have merit and improving.
What you appear to be doing here is lashing out, which contributes nothing to any political discourse.
This comment is a prime example of where this kind of exchange ends up, so I'm leaving this – and any other such threads (unless provoked when my patience is low, and my energy is high – which would be against my better judgement).
I will ask if you could refrain from this type of comment stalking when interacting with me, when your responses contain only trite sentences, no pertinent information and zero political analysis.
"Deal with your hurt feelings resulting from my comments…"
I have none.
"What you appear to be doing here is lashing out…"
Seriously?? Lashing out???
Hmmm…
"I will ask if you could refrain from this type of comment stalking when interacting with me, when your responses contain only trite sentences, no pertinent information and zero political analysis."
Exactly, woman have every right complaining about transwomen sharing toilets, changing rooms and sport with transwomen, but they need to chose their allies. Misogynists, homophobes and transphobes are not friends. What is it that's said about lying with dogs.
Misogynists, homophobes and transphobes are not friends. What is it that's said about lying with dogs.
OK I will wade in, if all you have are flogged out labels and sneers – you have lost the argument.
As human beings trans people, like anyone else, had the right to demand the same access to legal rights and human dignity as anyone else. No-one here for one second has denied you this.
What you then went and did was to collapse your entire humanity down to your mere sexual identity. And then demand everyone else accept every implication of this.
I agree, but I see the problem being less about KJK and her associations with the far right, than the fact that the left/liberals used No Debate to shut down progressive GC voices. That's why KJK exists the way she does. There are conservative people with skin in this game. If we want to win, we have to empower progressives to use their voice, or the whole thing will be framed within conservative values, and that doesn't serve women or trans women.
Weka – Frank's usually supported here; what do you make of the points he's presenting?
"
By now, Kelly-Jay Keen-Minshull (aka, Posie Parker) has come and gone. Her mission – to amplify a particularly pernicious form of transphobia (under the cloak of “women’s rights”) – an abject failure. As a marketing exercise to peddle her wares, it went well.
A self-style "woman’s rights activist" Keen-Minshull/Parker has strident views, including rejecting trans women as women. She has been active throughout Britain, Scotland, Australia, and United States.
In February 2019, Keen-Minshull/Parker harassed Sarah McBride, Human Rights Campaign National Press Secretary, and trans woman, in the United States’ Capitol Building. The verbal abuse, including mis-gendering and making offensive slurs, was videographed and uploaded onto the internet."
In February 2019, Keen-Minshull/Parker harassed Sarah McBride, Human Rights Campaign National Press Secretary, and trans woman, in the United States’ Capitol Building. The verbal abuse, including mis-gendering and making offensive slurs, was videographed and uploaded onto the internet."
HRC is an organisation that should be able answer the questions put forward by KJK while actively lobbying for legislation on those issues;
People are able to have a view, whether it is supported by the facts or evidence is quite another thing.
I have found Frank Macskasy a bit reactionary over the last few years and so stopped reading him. Perhaps I'll start again.
I've found I cherish the progressives more and am willing to read from any side and some times time does not allow diving into Frank's views.
As people think more deeply about the issues on 25/3 we are getting more comment from NZ on the implications for free speech, women's rights. This seemed to be the preserve of writers from overseas in the immediate aftermath. They seemed to be seeing what was happening more clearly than our media did or more likely wanted to (seeing at they had worked themselves into a truly tiny corner)
"The answer to Kim Hill’s question – why did Posie Parker require protection – is because Hill, Minister Wood, O’Brien, Lal and even Justice Gendall had all contributed to an environment where the use of violence was not only being legitimised, but had become a moral necessity.
We have graduated to a cultural landscape where commercial intimidation and even physical violence is permissible against people if their views are deemed unacceptable by the cultural, political and media leadership.
Those in positions of responsibility may wish to reflect on this, rather than stoking further escalation."
I don't always agree with Damien Grant but I do on this.
I am also concerned at the treating of the Ministership as some sort of private fiefdom where instead of getting measured comment on issues within the portfolio we get pronouncements or personal views driven along by the pronouncers being a Minister. (Granted the media seem unable to unlink the two and this does not help)
Marama Davidson seems to be one. You know I don't care about your breathless personal views about the trans community but I do care that you had neither the wit nor sense of reality to work out that any comment supporting or minimising the use of violence against people you disagree with was not appropriate.
You know being quite frank 'I couldn't give a big rats a***' what your personal views are Michael Wood and find them quite inappropriate and calling into question the decision making of the officials of the department you are the Minister of. I would have had much more respect had you stood behind the process and supported this.
I would paraphrase Abraham Lincoln – Quote – Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.
"Better to remain silent on issues out of your depth than to comment and to remove all doubt'.
It was presented by Keen-Minshull/Parker’s followers and various far-right individuals that the silver object beside her throat was a knife (or alternatively, scissors). It was supposedly "evidence" of thuggery by counter-protestors at Albert Park.
The object was a cellphone, held by one of her minders. The image had been cropped for maximum misrepresentation-effect.
Keen-Minshull/Parker was not brought to Australia by any feminisist organisation. Her presence was sponsored by the conservative, Trump-affiliated, Conservative Political Action Conference organisation."
Anne, this slur about the scissors was comprehensively walked back some days ago……Molly & Weka had a discussion.
Perhaps you and Frank could elucidate.
The point I took from this picture was that it was so dangerous out there for KJM that her security first had to close guard, walking with someone with arms and shoulders linked around her, to actually having to lift her for speed so she was almost parallel to the ground.
It was a deliberate attempt to help promote the image of mass thuggery coming from the protesting crowd. The kind of tactic used by right wing extremists that the woman in question so obviously is aligned to, despite her howls of protest to the contrary. In fact the more she denies it, the more one knows its true.
More details from whoever posted the original screen shot from the livestream, would be good to know. But unfortunately, I don't know who that was. The images were being deleted and/or corrected even as I was having a conversation with weka, only a few hours after the event.
Many were watching the livestream concerned that they were seeing a woman in extreme physical danger. The livestream shows a degree of the chaos and confustion, and it abruptly cut out for several minutes in the middle of it.
In that resulting distress, people were looking for answers and details, and I also thought this was information coming through. But as I said, people with saner heads at a time of confusion, almost immediately reined that interpretation in.
The social media accounts I followed, corrected and or deleted and did not circulate that image further. (Mind you, I don't have a Facebook or any other social media account, so I don't know if this is true on those platforms).
Thank you Molly. I wonder am I to go on for the rest of my life resisting people who use this and other unproven points about the so-called 'lovely, sun loving, fun loving protest, at Albert Park on 25/3.
Did the woman with the fractured skull run into someone's opened sunscreen lotion bottle or the keep cup with the decaf double shot hazelnut chai latte in it?
That was just one example mentioned and I concede it was quickly discarded by mainstream media at the least. But I recommend this morning's media watch programme on the subject from non-partisan folk who were actually present at the scene:
There was a lot of 'unreality' bandied about by the usual local suspects as well as the overseas media. It always amuses me how much more coverage the reporting of false data receives over the actual facts of a particular situation.
Thanks for conceding the point regarding the image.
However, what point is it that you are trying to make with the RNZ link?
Is it that because some people did not witness it, the violence against women has been exaggerated?
I just want to note, that in the footage of the woman being beaten I can see my daughter and partner about 3m away, and they had no idea that it was taking place directly behind them.
The noise was painfully loud at within the rotunda area that the #LetWomenSpeak attendees were in, once those demonstrators broke through.
"Keen-Minshull/Parker was not brought to Australia by any feminisist organisation. Her presence was sponsored by the conservative, Trump-affiliated, Conservative Political Action Conference organisation."
Need I say more."
CPAC is a political group – it's What We Believe page is here:
Apart from the wholesale support of capitalism (expected) the rest is fairly straightforward.
I don't know the full details of the sponsorship deal – and to be honest I don't care that much. IIRC, Kellie-Jay Keen says that CPAC offered the sponsorship deal partly to give the #LetWomenSpeak events liability cover under their organisation. The cost of liability cover for #LetWomenSpeak events was/is prohibitively high. So the formal sponsorship, removes that expense.
(There is a video where this is related, but I'm not going to trawl through it all to find it, but will post if I come across or remember where to look).
"Many who have concerns have been unable to raise them in existing parties and find themselves politically homeless. Their political representatives seemed to be incapable of having a discussion."
Thought you were talking about the anti-vaxx crowd for a moment…
"I will ask if you could refrain from this type of comment stalking when interacting with me, when your responses contain only trite sentences, no pertinent information and zero political analysis."
Macskasy's article, and the responses to Robert Guyton's comment on same, highlight the fact that, when it comes to 'Posie Parker', some opinions are poles apart.
Keen-Minshull has political aspirations. Time will tell whether she can reach the ‘heights’ of Pauline Hanson – based on PP’s recent encounters down under, imho she has a shot – exclusivity has popular appeal.
"Keen-Minshull has political aspirations. Time will tell if she can reach the heights of Pauline Hanson – based on her recent time down under, she has a shot, imho – exclusion is the name of her 'game'."
Hmmm.. more reason to take a cautious, cynical view of the woman, imo.
I've been, and am presently being, distracted by a 4-man South Korea film crew that has been filming our every move over the past 3 days. I'm just managing to fit in quick glimpses of TS as they set up this scene and that scene, and so am finding it difficult to always choose the right worm.
Yes. That is a strategy that was outlined a while ago, and many GC's know of it.
Many who have concerns have been unable to raise them in existing parties and find themselves politically homeless. Their political representatives seemed to be incapable of having a discussion.
When the idea was first mooted in GC circles to create a party where protest votes could be given, it was treated as a passing fancy.
But the strategy of such a move became apparent.
The creation of a political party would increase the likelihood of the discussion occurring in the political sphere. There is also the added benefit of political engagement and speeches being adequately protected by the authorities. Thereby, avoiding such debacles similar to that we had in Auckland last week.
Elaine Miller, used a similar strategy when contesting a Scottish by-election last year.
KJK AFAIK was a Labour party member. I don't know if she has long term ambition to be a politician, I do know that she (and her support team) are constantly looking to get a public conversation going by whatever legitimate means they can.
I think this might have some success in that objective.
KJK occasionally mentions it on videos or interviews, but it is hard to search videos if you don't know the exact ones.
Here though is a 2018 article from the Spectator. Sorry, I can't quote anything, – I've moved from my phone to here to post the link, and I am out of free articles:
IIRC, the "woman – adult human female "billboard was put up outside a Labour party conference, as women were unable to get Labour politicians to meet or acknowledge concerns raised by party members.
Thanks for that link to the 2018 article in The Spectator. Looks like KJK was a Labour party supporter, so probably a member too.
Roger Douglas and Richard Prebble left Labour; Ruth Richardson and Don Brash left the Nats. They found(ed) a new home – ACT.
Which of NZ's political parties might have policies that align best with KJK's intention to "campaign on the basis of repealing the Gender Recognition Act" and "erase the word 'gender'"?
"Keen-Minshull/Parker was not brought to Australia by any feminisist organisation. Her presence was sponsored by the conservative, Trump-affiliated, Conservative Political Action Conference organisation.""
If that is the case, you need say no more, imo.
Such information casts a shadow over the bright and breezy claim that the woman was "merely an advocate for women".
Because women see no merely about it. She is an advocate for women.
In my view it is time that people started realising that women are quite grown up, we exercise our brains, we can reference, we can assimilate/discern across multiple often competing view, we can see through charlatans and having done all this – we can make up our own minds about the message. In short to use the vernacular 'We can walk and chew gum'.
I see no need to disregard a message because the person may have political aspirations or because she need funding to meet insurance levies or for whatever reason mainstream funding sources were not aviable to her.
Don't you think that the messages she has given about women's rights and women's issues are worth a look?
Trustworthy groups such as Speak Up for Women and Mana Korereo Wahine support the kaupapa of Let Women Speak which is what it is all about.
In the No Debate Self ID crock the voices of women and our concerns were silenced.
You know if a red giraffe wearing thigh waders came to NZ, sponsored by the Pink Panthers Association to moo (or whatever giraffes do) about women's issues I'd go and see it (with a translator of course).
Please focus on the issues that have been raised and let us know why the concerns of women should not be addressed.
Trust us too.
We have done the mahi, researched the issues and the people. You don't need to second guess or 'warn' us
Actually KJM's work has received a huge boost in NZ with people being able to see that there are groups determined to restrict free speech, to 'deserving' people only, and restrict it by the use of force if necessary.
A joke?
I’m sorry I am a women and I don’t have a sense of humour attuned to that kind of ‘joke’ Robert.
My jokes are clearer like
What is brown and goes at 100k through custard?
A prune with an outboard motor.
and
Knock knock
Who’s there
Arthur
Arthur who?
Are there any mince pies left?
My "joke" was concerning the word, "worm", Shanreagh.
Being "mis-taken" seems de rigueur with this issue.
If we can maintain a dignified semi-respect for each other for a while longer, we might (we, being those commenting here) make it through the testing-time.
@Robert Guyton…….I cannot see the word worm in the post I am referring to. Is it in one of the links?
I also don't get the Mis-taken unless it is some poor take on miss. But then I am a woman and I've got no sense of humour. I am not away of a testing-time…this implies some sort of ending. I'm not sure this will end.
I can see how easily it would be for a party other than Labour or Greens to swoop in, put up a policy stating that BDM/safe spaces will be reviewed to see if it is fit for purpose for women, and a wave of women will go there, or at least have a close look..
If you want my honest opinion…the way will become clearer if you read, thought about, noted questions, asked them in a genuine manner and then reflected again on the answers. Then asked any queries.
Perhaps you might find it easier to read the rights based arguments that RW males have that enables them to see where we are coming from. RedLogix and TSmithfield have insights here, TS particularly with the chauvinism idea.
This one shot, 'smarty pants' way of interacting when we are trying to help you expand your knowledge is very off putting.
Many of us have had years, literally decades some of us in groups relating to women's issues, some of us have studied issues to stage 3 Uni levels at the time of the 1970s/80s wave, others since. Others of us have knowledge on human rights, civil rights, unions and are making the link through this. Others have lived the experience of the shifting sands of woman's issues through the fights to be able to live with our loved ones, marry/civil union them. I would venture to say there is not much that Women commentators on TS don't know about the issues.
"Eveyone I don't like is a Nazi" is a contender for most annoying feature of the 'progressive' left. It's appallingly disrespectful to victims of the Nazis, for a start.
Just as annoying is the political right's way of proclaiming that anyone from the left is a communist or Stalinist (Jacinda has been called such many a time) except that oddly enough it hardly raises an eyebrow anymore despite Stalin's appalling record on human rights.
Both the left and right have spawned monsters. But to be fair the legitimate, moderate right has fully, loudly and repeatedly repudiated the Nazis and fascism ever since the end of WW2. While not the same could be said for the broad left of it's catastrophic historic embrace of marxism. I still see plenty of minimising and weaseling on this and a persistent blindness to the modern forms it has morphed into.
Of course this does not mean there are not extremists on both sides who still embrace the old madness'. Mainly for the attention-seeking shock value I sometimes think.
When you boil all the rhetoric away, there is actually little difference between the extreme left and extreme right. They use the same methods to control people – violence and intimidation.
Frankly they can have woman. I’ve always thought it was a slightly offensive word as if we are something just tacked onto the side of men, literally wife man. About as offensive as woman being created from Adam’s rib. I am in favour of women now othering themselves as femme or femina.
The word is being used so often that it becomes meaningless as a slur.
Those who throw it about should do some reading / watching / listening to the vast amount of documentation available about The Holocaust Then hopefully they may start to understand what sort of person a real Nazi actually is, rather than just someone who disagrees with them.
It's a common tactic the "no debate" types use to shut down any discussion. (You're a nazi so I don't need to debate with you)
It's the same with words like facist, racist, transphobic, etc.
After an eye-roll at the headline: "…to challenge induction of transgender member", the rest of the article is an interesting read, of the special treatment given to that member in terms of criteria and induction.
The failure of many to understand how in such cases, single-sex provisions for women allow them to just get on with their day, with objectification is astounding.
The article points out clearly some of the impacts.
“The complaint said that witnesses observed Smith sitting in a chair in the living room of the sorority house on multiple occasions staring at members walking in.
“Smith has, while watching members enter the sorority house, had an erection visible” through leggings, the complaint said.
The morning after a sleepover, prior to the Kappa initiation ceremony for new members, Smith’s conduct was described as “inappropriate and threatening,” according to the complaint.
Though Smith did not sleepover, Smith returned to the sorority house the following morning and “stood silently in the corner of the room near the door while other pledges changed from sleeping garments into other clothing,” the lawsuit said.
Smith allegedly saw a woman not wearing a bra change shirts. After that incident, “other Kappa members informed Ms. Doe VI that while watching her” Smith had “become sexually aroused,” the complaint said, and Smith allegedly “repeatedly asked” Doe VI about her romantic attachments after the encounter. “
(I'm using an ancient laptop with keyboard and trackpad issues, so I resort to an onscreen keyboard, or a phone which either has issues with what I'm asking it to do, or that emphasises my fat finger syndrome to the detriment of efficient posting.)
That’s really taking the piss. I’d be surprised if anyone would support this type of behaviour. Even a teenage boy would know that he’s been a bit dodgy.
Bad or inappropriate behaviour like what is described in the article is not acceptable, and it doesn’t matter who’s doing it.
anyone condoning or justifying it should be called out.
Exactly. So much of this debate swirls around various arcane ideological rabbit holes, when I just see bad behaviour from weak, immature people with no internal boundaries.
Yea but in instances like this one the bad behaviour is enabled by whichever beauracrats decide that allowing a man to join a sorority is ok. (In fact anyone or any organisation that panders to this nonsense)
The young women involved should never have been put in the position of having to deal with this bad behavior in the first place
The large majority of men – men who work for a living, support and provide for their families, act as a good parent, and will sacrifice themselves to protect their family, community and nation – think of this simmering alphabet soup of sex and gender variation as a bit of an aberration; to be tolerated but scarcely embraced.
I have three close family members, each with a relatively rare genetic condition that has had a dramatic impact on their lives. (I may have referenced some of this in the years past, I am not going to detail any here.) The fact of these conditions is something that takes nothing away from their human rights, and expectation that others will treat them with the ordinary courtesy and dignity afforded anyone. Nor does it subtract one jot from my expectation that their disability will be an excuse for bad behaviour. And of course as family they are loved.
But frankly their disability has been a monstrous pain in the arse, changing the course of not just their lives, but all around them. It has massively curtailed their potential to function, achieve and contribute – to be the people they could have been. If any sane person had the a choice in the matter, they would not ask for these disabilities. They are not desirable permutations of the human condition.
Looping then back to the sex/gender issue this comment is about. Where there is a reasonable case for a genetic pre-disposition, or indeed some environmental hormonal disruption that skews the usual path of gender expression – then like most people I am willing to be compassionate and accepting to the extent reasonable on the matter. To repeat this does not diminish their rights as a human being, nor the usual social obligation to treat them with courtesy and respect. You have been very clear on this all the way through and we agree on this.
Just do not try and tell me however these conditions are 'normal', or should be promoted as such. These transgender activists seem to be calling for a free – state-funded – ‘revolutionary genital tourism’ whereby you can, with chemicals or surgery or both, shift at will from being a ‘man’ or a ‘woman’ or surgically/chemically ‘non-binary.' And underlying this it is not hard to discern a deeper agenda to discount the heteronormative family as an 'oppressive patriarchal capitalist' construct that might be swept away in a politicised, subversive firestorm of social disintegration. Political revolution from the inside out, disguised as personal freedom.
The 'progression' of this dark agenda is now fairly plain to see, first getting everyone to accept that gender expression is fluid, now dismantling biological sex, after this I anticipate will come the idea that age itself is a mere social construct.
To be clear, the gender/sexual politics of all this does not interest me much. Rather it is the undeniable erosion of stable family formation and structure across much of the world, and the accompanying social and economic dysfunction that always flows from this, is I believe is larger picture most people are either not seeing, or do not feel safe to speak to.
'And underlying this it is not hard to discern a deeper agenda to discount the heteronormative family as an 'oppressive patriarchal capitalist' construct that might be swept away in a politicised, subversive firestorm of social disintegration. Political revolution from the inside out, disguised as personal freedom."
That is a strategy acknowledged by many women, across the political spectrum. However, it sometimes appears to be more clearly recognised and emphatically stated by those with "conservative" politics and viewpoints.
Some seem to have an internal censor that inhibits open acknowledgement. Whether it is tribal, related to acceptable "progressivism" or just wanting not wanting to be seen aligning with conservatives on any issue – I don't know.
This idea of boundaries should be intuitively familiar to most women; most will have had a bad encounter at some point in their lives with someone who lacks them. And all too often it was an immature, weak male who lacking the ability to control his innate capacity for aggression (both active and passive).
On this point, I would argue that much of the debate around violence misses the point that men are innately more physically dangerous than women. Evolutionary sexual selection ensured we would be this way. On average the difference is not very large, we are a dimorphic species, but not excessively so. But at the extremes almost all of the worst offenders will be male; this being an inevitable outcome of how normal distributions work.
But in my view the idea this is biological reality is a social construct, an 'oppressive, misogynistic patriarchy' is not only rather uninteresting, it simply leads us nowhere useful. Thus decades of talking about the scourge of IPV and no change in the outcome.
The correct solution to violence is not to demand men should be weak and harmless, but they are socialised to control their innate aggression and direct it constructively. The role of childhood rough play, adolescent initiation into manhood, male bonding in challenging situations into effective, disciplined teams are all traditional facilitations of this.
But you are of course correct, none of this acceptable left wing discourse.
I have thought long and hard about our institutions such as religion and the patriarchy, including the notion of the nuclear family.
My conclusion is that generally they may be a force for good for many.
But not all especially not all women, I know though that there are many men who have welcomed the results of the fight that women have had on access to maternity leave as it has enable them to participate more in their children's little lives.
In the religion I grew up in women are able to participate to the fullest in ministering.
My ongoing view is that though we may consent to be governed, this is not for all time and we must watch like hawks to make sure the two institutions work for all women.
Unlike other types of activism, referenced by Stuart Munro women's activism is never done.
Activists, having achieved any measure of success, are disempowered by it. They must find new careers, or fresh problems, if they substantially resolve the ones that initially motivated them.
I have noted before being shocked after a period out of the public service at the lack of simple knowledge of institutional racism or sexism held by one CE I came across. Held by him and thus promulgated across his managers. This was 2005.
Yes – all good points. In writing the comment above I was aware of two matters I should clarify.
One is that in drawing an analogy between a genetic condition that is physical in nature, and one that expresses itself primarily in a social context – are not the equivalent things in every respect, but the moral argument is broadly similar enough to convey the point I wanted to make.
And yes there is no reason to demand everyone fits within the traditional structures. Growing up in my rather small extended family I had an older aunt who lived in a same sex relationship all her life. This long before it became fashionable as such. As far as we were concerned it was just who she was and there was never any negative comment or disrespect about it. But it was a private matter, and not something she imposed on others.
While I am sure she would have encountered the usual run of bigots and nosey parkers, as far as I am aware she never allowed this to hold her back from living a full and good life, both socially and professionally. And she had a rather marvelous collection of fast cars and motorbikes.
Newsroom has a new regular post called "Raw Politics."
Welcome to Raw Politics, Newsroom's new, election year weekly video podcast, with Tim Murphy, Jo Moir and Sam Sachdeva. This week: Stuart Nash's demise, Jacinda's Ardern's valedictory and Marama Davidson's ticking off by the PM.
I listened to most of it but think it is a "lets explore every little dark place in which to amplify the terrible management of the Government." Spiteful I reckon especially from Tim Murphy.
Watched it ianmac but probably too early to judge. What with the PP debacle and the Stuart Nash sacking, it was largely about Hipkins and his handling of both situations. I thought he handled them as well as could be expected in the circumstances.
I did think it was a bit underhand to claim this govt. wasbumbling on (my words) without demonstrating any vision for the future ("bread and butter issuesdon't cut it" Murphy said) when we have the budget coming up in a matter of weeks where all will be revealed.
If you can endure your way through Plunket's constant, annoying interruptions, this is a gobsmacking interview. It leaves only two possible explanations for the Police failure to maintain public order and protect the mob's victims:
1. The liaison with the women organising the event was genuine, but the officers involved received instructions from their superiors to stand down and leave the women to face the mob alone.
2. The liaison was duplicitous from the start and the officers involved never had any intention of doing what they were agreeing to.
Option 2 may sound far-fetched, but don't underestimate the misogyny infesting the police force. Here's a reminder of how some of them see women:
Linda speaks well throughout the interview despite – as you mention – Plunket's unnecessary interruptions.
(I did enjoy the rebuke at the beginning when Plunket corrected her "rotund" error. A couple of pointed digs around that later for emphasis from a woman that has just had enough).
The personal experience shared sounds credible, even if it does put the police actions and inactions in a very poor light. It does raise real questions about political influence as well.
It also gives voice to the very real threat that women experienced that has been routinely ignored or downplayed by some commentators, media and politicians.
Police not doing the job we think they should be doing's a theme.
Parliament occupation, Brian tamaki's many antics and P houses left untouched whilst the next street over gets chopper, patrol cars etc to sieze a few plants.
Nationals police force….they get in costers goneburger.
The critical point that many have missed – is that once PP and the women attending the event were thoroughly intimidated, and in some cases assaulted, the Police immediately swung into action, bundling PP to safety in a waiting car, then into protective custody first at the Police station, then at the airport and even escorting her onto the plane.
PP herself has had nothing but good things to say about these officers who did look after her after the crisis. Nor is there any reason to think the handful of officers inside Albert Park who were plainly either under-resourced or under instructions to stand down, can be reasonably accused of misogyny.
Nah – like many people here I strongly suspect this was a political act. All the dots are sitting there waiting to be joined up – and it will only take one disgruntled person to do it. Who knows, maybe a certain ex-Minister of Police.
From other accounts from women present, it was security that directed KJK to the stationary police, and perhaps even into the car. The police then had to act, and standard responses kicked in.
The police – despite requests – also did not go to the rotunda to assist the remaining women AFAIK.
If anyone has evidence or accounts that contradict this, I'd appreciate it being posted.
Plunket had an interview with PP yesterday that covered the events off from her perspective in some detail. I was merely going on that account.
I agree it was probably the people providing her security – and they deserve a good deal more plaudits for their courage than has been credited to them so far – that got her away from the rotunda down to the street.
It is my interpretation that the Police on the ground, once they realised just how out of hand things had gotten, finally had to ignore instructions and do the right thing.
In this paper, we contribute new insight into the differences between perceived and actual bias in an online community’s attempt to facilitate productive exchange on controversial issues.
Suggesting how the site should be run or complaining about moderation is a sure way to cop a self martyr ban.
But the conclusions in the report does contain the following…
“We found that users holding minority views are more likely to be moderated,even after accounting for levels of potentially offensive behaviors across groups”
I also read the suggestion, that I disagree with, that the rules be excruciatingly specific. The theory of specificism is law or similar is well known. For instance many believe in the fair, large and liberal approach where an incomplete and general list is put up. This tends include rather than exclude ideas, words that are similar to those instanced .
The other approach is that the words are included are all that are covered.
I see the benefit in phrases such as say 'apply commonsense' (fair, large & liberal)
rather than an exhaustive list of words trying to convey this.
The trouble with the exhaustive list approach is that if we leave off an example people may argue that this is not covered by 'commonsense' and so is not covered by the moderation.
I look on moderation as a way to get the best out of us and our arguments thus making them clearer and more persuasive to a greater audience. I don't see it is censorship. Not do I think it is designed to please the majority. We can all slip up and not link or link competently (my common mod)
I can recall several posters espousing uncommon views, who put them up and had a number of posters against them. They put them up again, same thing occurs perhaps several times.
The next post is full of ad homs against other posters, Mods, others with different views. They are moderated. They perhaps put up their immoderate views as they were tired of posters being 'agin their views.
I sometimes think that those holding minority views on site are often those whose views on another site or out in town square NZ are in fact majority views. So they are coming to a site they know does not espouse their views per se (and we have a number of wonderful posters on here who do that).
Anyway, a very interesting read.
I am a great supporter of moderation as I believe it helps us add to the sum of knowledge. It is not designed to make us all support vanilla views, but to draw out the hokey pokeys and boysenberries of this world…..a drawn out metaphor.
Yes. There are quite a few who have bailed from this site. I don't blame them. There seems to be a bit of a pack mentality currently developing. You know… 'you gotta completely agree with us cos if you don't we're gonna run you out of town' kind of attitude. Not all commenters (or authors) are guilty of this of course.
Hopefully TS can soon revert to its former environment where people were able to argue the pros and cons (because they always exist) about an issue with reasonable safety – and not a little humour when it was appropriate.
Adrian gets a bollocking, and so have I over time from LPRENT for supporting Jeremy Corbyn, Bernie Sanders, and Mike Smith. “fool” is how I have been characterised, so I generally self censor to be able to keep posting here.
Which is strange in a way because a look at the archive over a decade or more shows how supportive I have been of Mr Prent for keeping the site going and tackling the likes of SlaterOil in court proceedings.
But hey, no one is perfect and the ultimate counter for whinging posters I guess is obvious–“pay for your own server and site and say what you like!”
I get the feeling that you hadn’t read the article that The Al1en had linked to @ 9.
Your perception of the alleged ‘bollockings’ is a misrepresentation and mischaracterisation stemming from your bias of censorship and moderation on TS and how things work here.
‘Bollocking’, moderating, or banning here is generally not because of viewpoints but of how well or rather how badly one argues for them. Poor arguments can raise the ire of those who don’t suffer fools.
I hope this clears up some of your misunderstandings.
Your quote was so selective it was self-serving. Here’s the full quote with the relevant missing part in my italics:
We found that users holding minority views are more likely to be moderated, even after accounting for levels of potentially offensive behaviors across groups. We found, however, that the effect of this bias is much smaller than how the issue is represented.
It is quite evident from your comments in this thread that you were trying to be subtle, as not to fall into the self-martyrdom hole, and that your intention was to take a swipe at moderation here on TS. You can’t have it your way; say what you mean and mean what you say or you say nothing at all.
Your ‘missing friends’ have had their commenting privileges revoked because of their own actions and not because of poor and unfair moderation. Acknowledging my own biases, I think your insinuations (!) are inaccurate and unfair. I do acknowledge that on some ‘hot topics’ moderation can become more biased and heavy-handed than strictly necessary. Mods are not perfect and the ones that don’t have anything left in the tank take a break, tend to leave on their own accord, or have their Moderation rights revoked.
I hope this helps. When you feel the need to criticise Mods and/or Authors please don’t try to be too subtle and clever for your own good
I'm usually brick subtle but obviously not on here, but as for selective, even if your point is true and the level is much smaller than represented, you'd agree it's still there.
It was and is not my point, it is the finding and conclusion of one study of one online group (community), i.e., of Ravelry’s BID. My guess is that it is always present to some degree because it is inevitable when dealing with humans and human [online] interactions. If you were to ask if it is present here and does it present a problem I’d say “No”, but with the qualifiers that I’ve already mentioned in my previous comment. And no, I would not say this because I’m one of the Mods. I’d say it because I comment and occasionally author here, i.e., if it were a problem [for me], and more akin some other NZ political blog sites, I’d leave immediately and stop spending hours of my time on here. TS is the best of the bunch – spoken with real and genuine bias.
Interesting read, thanks. However, I wouldn’t read too much into it, e.g., extrapolate some of the ‘findings’ and ‘solutions’ to other political blog sites such as TS. Much of it was highly familiar to me, although it seems that none of the authors had any experience as a Mod, but perhaps that was a good thing because it might have induced bias in the study.
The issue that was not addressed is that of bias within the community/commentariat and the six tags attached to comments (that’s what we call them here on TS, as Posts are submitted by people with TS/WordPress Author status). Many a ban occurs because of and after a heated exchange with other commenters here […] and not all come from or start with a stand-alone comment, i.e., more or less entirely self-inflicted by the offender.
It’s tough to act objectively & impartially (neutrally) given my own biases, likes, and dislikes. I do my best.
The comment about the high workload of Mods struck a chord – TS receives more comments a month than the Big Issues Debate (BID) group on Ravelry in that study. Of course, not all comments are equal, but it gives you a bit of an idea of how much the two main Mods here on TS wade through!
If I have time, I will respond to a few other of your comments in this thread, because they leave a few things to the imagination and raise some questions …
There are some commenters who don't believe this, but the things people get banned for here are pretty simple and most of them come down to people ignoring moderation and wasting moderator time (I cannot emphasis the latter enough).
I will note an exception however. The last time you were banned, for 6 months, was for calling a woman commenter, who you were politically disagreeing with, "a nasty old cunt". In my time moderating here, that would be at the worst end of the scale for misogyny directed at women. Fortunately its rare and the reason it is rare is because we moderate before it gets to that point, and we curate a culture where its unacceptable.
We have this rule for good reasons,
We encourage robust debate and we’re tolerant of dissenting views. But this site run for reasonably rational debate between dissenting viewpoints and we intend to keep it operating that way.
What we’re not prepared to accept are pointless personal attacks, or tone or language that has the effect of excluding others.
It takes work to create an environment where a range of people want to comment. I've just asked someone to not call a prominent intersex trans person 'it', because it is dehumanising. That kind of language will also put people off from being here. The commenter did a simple acknowledgement, no drama.
All of which is to say that by far and away the easiest way to not get moderated is to not be an arsehole to the moderators. Imo this largely comes down to intent.
In the years I was commenting before becoming an author, I often talked to moderators about their decisions and I don't think I've ever been modded for that. It's entirely possible to talk about moderation here without crossing that line. This is why I see relatively easily when people are saying they don't care about TS moderation (and hence the site). I no longer see any point in spending time trying to sort that out. In election year we are just handing out long bans after the first few times, to curate a better debate for the election and to save ourselves the aggro and time.
Why? What are the things you’re worried about writing that will get you banned? I know I have plenty, though I do remember you frequently getting tied in knots before you became a moderator, which I noticed hasn’t happened since.
what I'm trying to say is that, calling women cunts aside, people here don't get generally banned for what they say, they get banned for behaviour, often patterns of behaviour. This is good, because it means it's possible to avoid being banned even if one has controversial views.
Weka I'm constantly amazed at how fair you are, how incredibly articulate, and how at pains you are to filter your own biases.You make this site far more civil than it would be without you, and for that my admiration has no bounds.You may get triggered at times, but you never lash out
The words that were used including c**t are unacceptable to me & I am glad they were moderated. Why do we think that people want to see it written. Sounds like a male only worksite of old.
Shouldn't we pride ourselves on making our arguments/discussions without this sort of stuff.
signed
Mother of ten
Auckland
PS I note though several people on my twitter feed have had other Twitterers having to remove the words as inevitably they use them about others and fall foul of the twitter standards
''If you can endure your way through Plunket's constant, annoying interruptions, this is a gobsmacking interview.''
Cheap shot mainly because Plunket isn't ''Left Media.'' In fact it was the interviewee who was tortuous to listen to, but well worth the effort because, as you say, it was a gobsmacking interview.
My guess is it's probably some configuration of your No1 explanation. Andrew Costa may have been mulling over the issue, and because of his wokeness, worried about a backlash against the police protecting so called Nazis. Another angle is the Rainbow Community is still not 100% comfortable with the police as an organisation.
Plenty of history in the UK of Police doing the enforcement work for gender ideology. Chap called Harry Miller in his "Fair Cop" blog does a good job of exposing it.
I fully accept my characterisation of Plunket's interviewing was a personal opinion! I'm torn between being grateful he's providing a platform for these women to be heard and personally annoyed at his interviewing style.
Agree that some variant of option 1 is most likely. Either one is bad, though – can't see any way to put a good spin for the police on what happened.
Strange as it may seem, I agree Plunket can interrupt too much. I think he gets impatient, especially with those with a more ponderous style of talking. Plus you will notice he can't sit still. When I get annoyed I just think '' well, it could have been Duncan Garner at the microphone.
Just returned from the Kimbolton Sculpture Festival. Great morning, wide range of art, stall holders and food.
A couple of observations from snatched excerpts of korero and artists written descriptions of their work. A parade of Mustangs idled their way through the crowd to go on display. More than a couple of comments about how much 'The Greenies' would hate that and 'to enjoy them before they are banned too'. One exhibit was of a heading dog and a cow and calf and a bull. All made out of old pushbike parts and old stuff ftom a shed. The artist reckoned Jacinda and the Greens want to get rid of the cows and this was a reminder of their presence.
Following the fallout of the Shame @ Albert Park, I was thinking these sorts of rural events is perhaps a better environment for a LWS forum/event/tent. Lower key (but still able to be live streamed), organised and run by locals and anyone wishing to silence the speakers would have to pay $15 to do so.
You couldn’t repeatedly punch a senior citizen and get away with it in that community.
The two groups met on Monday night to discuss things and it had been agreed that Ngāti Kauwhata would take part in the event.
But now organiser Tony Waugh said the day had been postponed to a yet-to-be-confirmed date because of uncertainty and the potential for disruption and conflict.
I was thinking about some of RedLogix's posts above.
Something I was pondering is why women supporting PP have received largely positive support from right-wing males, and also left wing to be fair. But not so much the extreme woke-leaning males.
I was wondering if it was due to a degree of chauvinism more likely to be still lingering in us right-wingers. In a positive way though. To the extent that we value women in our lives, and recognise that women tend to be physically weaker than males, and therefore more vulnerable in a physical sense. So, seeing women abused or physically threatened tends to activate the evolutionary protective instincts in males.
On the other hand, many woke males may have had this type instinct replaced with a desire to be protective towards other groups they see as minority, and therefore needing protection, and now just lump biological women in with the majority oppression group.
Well done for a remarkably even-handed analysis; and while it obvious which camp I am located in, I believe you have done justice to the legitimate motives of those in the pro-trans camp as well.
What intrigues me is much less all the minutiae of the public debate around sexual politics, but the broader question around stable families, demographics and how this plays out in terms of social and economic dysfunction. As a psychologist you are surely familiar with the literature that clear confirms that children who grow up in intact, functioning families – ideally with an extended family available – will on average do better in life by almost every measure. Is this not what a legitimate left would want for the people we are supposedly standing up for?
For example, and as we have discussed elsewhere on a recent thread on education, there is a limit to what schools can do, if a positive home environment is lacking.
Of course. The only reason for using the phrase "right wing" was that there was a lot of support for women coming from the likes of kiwiblog. But also, I recognise there are many such as yourself here as well who are on the same wave length.
but the broader question around stable families, demographics and how this plays out in terms of social and economic dysfunction. As a psychologist you are surely familiar with the literature that clear confirms that children who grow up in intact, functioning families – ideally with an extended family available – will on average do better in life by almost every measure.
Not an area I studied in deeply, my study being more along the lines of organisational psychology. But what you are saying seems at least intuitively correct.
But, yes, I think children need stability in their relationships. And, ideally, young boys especially, need to have some positive male role models in their lives in some way or another. Unfortunately, young males often grow up in relationships where their experience of older males is anger and violence. And, it is better for them to be out of those relationships altogether.
Many solo mothers I know intuitively believe their sons need positive male role models, and try to get their sons aligned with positive male role models in one way or another.
The literature suggests male/female differences are in actuality very small. But there are still differences. Not in the way of superiority or anything condescending like that. But more in the way of slight differences due to evolution. So, I think there is value in young men growing up with positive male role models, whether that be through a sporting situation, or club or whatever.
And, I wonder if this is part of the reason why we have more gender confusion now. Because, young men often haven't had that male influence in their lives, and so are confused about what their true identity is. So far as males wanting to transition to female, anyway.
That is not to say I am blaming women for this state of affairs. More, that I am blaming men for often being such bad role models that women feel they have no option but to remove their children from their influence.
More, that I am blaming men for often being such bad role models that women feel they have no option but to remove their children from their influence.
There is no doubting this. Yet professionally you must know that just blaming or hectoring a client to 'be a better person' is rarely an effective clinical tool. The key is to elicit a fresh insight and internal motivation to change. And in this respect much of the usual public discourse yelling at men about how bad they are has probably been remarkably counter-productive.
As a bit of tangent here, in I would point to the large number of WW1 and WW2 Returned Servicemen, many damaged and traumatised by their experiences as a bit of a social tipping point here. These were the first big wars in our society where there was a large civilian contingent of soldiers (as contrasted to the generally professional cadres who traditionally fought wars in the pre-Industrial era) who returned from overseas to families and communities largely uncomprehending what they had gone through.
And often with little support but their mates at the RSA and booze. The consequences for their families was often tragic one way or another.
Then of course we had the 1970's sexual revolution and freely available contraception, that effectively de-coupled sex from reproduction, and diminished the necessity to maintain stable families. Which in turn has spawned generations of fatherlessness.
I recall a story my partner told me years ago, and it may well be apocryphal but it rings true enough. A prison chaplain had the idea to hand out to inmates Mother's Day cards, that were very well received. It was evidently a good idea and counted a success. However when he attempted to repeat the same idea with Fathers Day cards – it fell very flat indeed. There were almost no takers.
Or another story from my own experience. When I started in Cubs (this would be the early 60's and progressing through to Scouts I can clearly recall the heavy involvement of whole families. Summer camps especially saw the enthusiastic and valuable contribution from fathers – in all sorts of ways that in hindsight was quite remarkable. We used to do semi-annual suburb wide bottle drives that took whole weekends of hard work, but were an immense amount of fun because everyone pitched in.
But by the time I progressed into more senior levels in the 70's it suddenly changed. We became a baby sitting service for single mothers and the entire tone shifted. I admire those who persisted with it through this period, but in the end it was not sustainable.
And the Peter Ellis case had a major impact on male teachers entering the teaching profession I think. Basically, males wanting to enter teaching felt like they would be under suspicion of being pedophiles. I think since then, the number of male teachers plummeted.
And, some of the modern marketing which seems deliberately aimed at causing gender confusion in children. For instance, my wife's sister purchased a toy pram for her grand daughter. And, the picture on the front had a boy pushing the pram.
Sure, traditional gender roles are very archaic these days. So, not trying to argue for those. But, this sort of messaging to young children just encourages boys to question their gender I think.
It would be interesting to know how much of the desire for young boys especially to change their gender is due to actual genetic or biological factors and how much is due to modern socialisation. If there is a large amount due to modern socialisation, then we are doing our boys a huge dis-service.
It would be interesting to know how much of the desire for young boys especially to change their gender is due to actual genetic or biological factors and how much is due to modern socialisation.
It is my impression that this 'confusion' manifests itself to varying degrees much more than we think. I think if someone really tried to study this – and I have no idea exactly how – they would find this an almost universal experience in adolescents of both sexes. (In this I have a fair bit of time for Jung's ideas around anima and animus archetypes.)
But like everything else about adolescence this confusion is transitory. In my view encouraging children to engage in chemical or physical mutilation at this highly vulnerable, suggestible phase of their life is no more defensible than allowing older sexual predators to groom and exploit them sexually.
As for autogynophelia – that has an almost entirely mid-life onset in males. I hesitate to comment – beyond saying this is probably an entirely separate phenomenon that should not be conflated with the adolescent puberty process.
I had forgotten about the Peter Ellis case – I agree it was remarkably damaging to teaching in NZ; but parallel events were happening in many places in the world, meaning that teaching became a completely female dominated profession. Even the handful of men left had to modify their approach in order to survive.
And as far as I am concerned this has been a catastrophe for a significant cohort of young boys as they pass through our education system. The most obvious symptom is the now complete dominance of females at the tertiary level. I don't have any NZ stats to hand, but in the US there is now a 2:1 ratio of female to male graduates – way more when you filter out the STEM subjects. All the indicators suggest young men are piling out of universities and either heading toward technical trades or small business. Or playing video games in their mother's basement.
A big consequence of this being the rise of the so-called, and much despised, 'incel' movement – a whole cohort of young men who have realised they have almost zero chance of every finding a mate and forming a family. Again we can yell at them as much as we like about how terrible they are – this merely confirms for them the correctness of their world view.
Or even if we step back from this noisy group and just consider the wider statistic that – again in the US – we are seeing a dramatic rise in the number of young men who are not in any kind of sexual relationship even by the age of 30. Not even casually much less formally. And while there is a similar rise for young women it is much smaller.
And this is before I start mentioning the massive impact of dating apps that enforce a brutal Pareto principle on males – with the top handful of 'high value' males guaranteed of unlimited attention, a modest 15% or so who stand a chance – and the bottom 80% virtually ignored. In essence we are heading back toward a mating structure that looks a lot like serial polygamy than anything else.
On the female side this same dynamic manifests as a dramatic rise in involuntary childlessness. The stats are brutal, if a woman has not has had their first child by the age of 30, it is 50:50 she never will. By 40yrs the odds are much worse.
Much of the drop in average fertility rates across the world are not so much attributable to smaller family sizes as we like to think. It appears that once a woman has their first child, they will go on to have pretty much the same number of children on average as did their mothers and grandmother's generation. It is the huge rise of women who never have children who are the big factor here – and while we know this suits some women well enough – for the large majority it becomes a matter of great sadness in later life, not to mention the dire demographic implications for the fate of whole communities and nations.
This only touches of a few points off the top of my head right now – my overall point is that family structures everywhere are under enormous pressure from many different directions – and not a lot of people on the left are open to talking about this.
It appears that once a woman has their first child, they will go on to have pretty much the same number of children on average as did their mothers and grandmother's generation.
Observationally, this isn't true among the cohort of professional women I know. Having a single child is achievable without completely sacrificing your career – it's exponentially harder with each subsequent child.
Tied with the fact that professional women are more likely to have their first child when their career is established (so mid 30s or later) – when fertility levels are already dropping.
Every single one of these single-child women in my friendship/acquaintance group comes from a family of at least 2 siblings.
Also, observationally, my teen's class would have at least 40% of the kids from single-child families. Growing up, that was really rare – I can only remember possibly 2 or 3 kids in my class who were singletons (much envied by the rest of us, as they didn't have to share their stuff with siblings)
In NZ, we are 'lucky' that this is balanced by the number of blue and/or white collar workers, who choose to have a higher number of children – at a younger age. Our different cultural mix is a factor here, too (Pasifika and Maori women are more likely to have multiple children – cf Marama Davidson).
Other countries (Germany and Japan, for example) are considerably more severely affected by this demographic change. And, China is already in demographic free-fall following their one-child policy of the 20th century.
I appreciate this assertion around family size is counter intuitive. I gleaned this data from recent work by author and researcher Stephen J Shaw who was just as surprised as anyone else to uncover the real data once you drilled in beneath the aggregate numbers everyone else was looking at.
On the female side this same dynamic manifests as a dramatic rise in involuntary childlessness. The stats are brutal, if a woman has not has had their first child by the age of 30, it is 50:50 she never will. By 40yrs the odds are much worse.
I think that women (if they are prepared to go the solo-mum route), do have quite a few options.
Certainly the fertility clinics report increasing numbers of single women, choosing that route, because they are not in a stable relationship – and don't forsee one happening.
Also, it's relatively easy for women to source 'donations' from male friends (indeed several lesbian couples I know, have done this, (often from gay friends) rather than going down the official route).
I think that much of the involuntary childlessness is women leaving it 'too late'. Many are still not aware of how radically fertility can drop from late-20s onwards; and several I know had early onset menopause in their 30s.
We (as a society) still haven't come to terms with the fact that, biologically, the best time for women to have children is 18-28; but socially this is the most career-damaging time for women to take time out of the workforce.
And, having said all that. I also know several women who have chosen not to have children, and are perfectly happy with that choice. Some of them are devoted aunts and fairy godmothers (but happy to return them at the end of the day); others just aren't really interested in kids at all.
I also know several women who have chosen not to have children, and are perfectly happy with that choice.
The data Shaw came up with however is that while there are of course some women who happily choose not to have children, it turns out they are a minority. What he found is that around 80% of childless women in later life wound up thus involuntarily – and to varying degrees found this the cause of grief and sadness.
To be clear, no-one is suggesting for one moment that women should in any manner be compelled to have children they do not want. I am speaking to the exact opposite here, women who do want a family but find out too late for one reason or another that it never happened.
I'd really like to see the data. I'm suspecting a bit of a biased sample with 80% regret figures.
For example: Surveying women who have unsucessfully been through fertility treatment is going to throw up higher 'regret' figures, than surveying highly successful, and childless-by-choice business-women.
We (as a society) still haven't come to terms with the fact that, biologically, the best time for women to have children is 18-28; but socially this is the most career-damaging time for women to take time out of the workforce.
Yes very much to this.
The obvious challenge is that it is almost impossible for a single mother in her early 20's to manage young children and grow a career at the same time. With the support of a partner and extended family the picture looks quite different. With the opportunity to work more from home, the picture changes again.
If we normalised life-long learning for all adults, if the political left more aggressively went after long standing workplace prejudices around age – for both young and old – this would help massively.
If we dismantled the lie we tell young people that career is the only thing that matters in life, and restored the innate dignity and respect parenthood is rightly due – this might shift the picture again.
With the support of a partner and extended family the picture looks quite different. With the opportunity to work more from home, the picture changes again.
While the support of a partner *can* make having a family and a career possible, it doesn't always do so. And working from home is frequently not realistic with small children (as many families found out during lockdown).
Our cultural attitudes assume that managing the family is 'women's work' (and even worse, unpaid women's work). So that means that it is Mum's career which comes second, Mum who has to organize and manage all of the childcare and family organization, and Mum who takes time off work when the kids are sick, or other arrangements fall through. Extended family, means it's Grandma who does all of this (not Grandpa).
Case in point. Recent school strike. We have around 30 people where I work who are parents of kids (or Grandparents – extended family) in the affected age group (5-14). In not one instance was it Dad or Grandad who was taking time off work, or arranging for alternative family care – in every case, it was Mum or Grandma.
There is absolutely *nothing* stopping Dad stepping up to the plate to either take responsibility or organize alternative care [We are a highly family-friendly firm, and the CEO had already said that we would support families through this by offering working from home, or shifting hours or taking leave – whatever they needed]. It's just an unspoken cultural assumption that Mum will deal with it.
I know two highly-paid businesswomen with kids (we became friends when we were all going through the toddler years). In both cases, they went back to work after the first year – and Dad was a SAH Dad. Both women *still managed all of the family organization* – Nannies, Kindy, School admin, sports teams. All of the stuff that a family with kids needs to keep organized and under control. Mum still does it.
Many solo mothers I know intuitively believe their sons need positive male role models, and try to get their sons aligned with positive male role models in one way or another.
And on that topic – a shout-out to the amazing group "Big Buddy" – which does exactly that. Buddy up boys who have no male role models in their lives with blokes who are looking to be mentors.
An outstanding charity – which makes a positive difference to so many boys.
It seems intuitively obvious that young boys and young girls will benefit greatly from having a positive Male role model (hopefully their Dad) fully involved in their upbringing.
It would seem the stats back this up (especially for young boys)
I was lucky enough to have two loving parents (mum and dad) in the same household and am 100% certain it helped me immeasurably.
Mum taught me how to treat a woman and Dad taught me how to behave towards women (which yes is probably horribly old fashioned these days).
But growing up observing how Dad treated Mum and behaved to all women (as an absolute gentleman) and the fact that they were married 50 odd years makes me think sometimes that some of these 'old fashioned' ideas are worth keeping.
I suspect that many young men these days are never taught and have no idea or even concept of what being a gentleman (or just a man) is.
Sometimes when I see or hear about another female victim of horrific violence or even at the other end of the scale just rudeness I have to remind myself that the way I feel about such things isn't 'built in' ,which is what it feels like but mostly taught or learned.
I've forgotten my point now…hehehe
[Good morning, a week ago you agreed to stick to one username + e-mail address (see https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-27-03-2023/#comment-1941759). If you keep using two e-mail addresses, I will permanently ban one of them and your comments will disappear from the radar before the Mods can see & approve them; the Mods won’t be able to restore your comments, even if they’d want to. Your call – Incognito]
Its certainly been an interesting discussion and raised many things, and hopefully some self reflection too.
Also been a welcome change from the usual diet of dreary National/Act bad, Labour/Green good, opinion posts. And hasnt it been revealing of assorted politicians and assorted contributors you thought you knew?
I’ve felt intellectually challenged to think about some things, in a way that I havent, for a long time on the TS.
One thing I've learnt is that my ideas can change and be modified by other commenters.Especially when a commenter lacks animus, is engaging in a genuine exercise to understand ,to articulate how they think and feel, rather than slamming or insulting others
Reading these comments from Belladonna, Redlogix and Tsmithfield again. And the reflections by Hetzer, MichaelP and Francesca.
I have learned so much from them and I see I have already used your comment TS about chauvinism and seeming RW male support of women's issues……hope I credited you but I fear I may not have. ?
New Zealand is again having to reconcile conflicting pressures from its military and its trade interests. Should we join Pillar Two of AUKUS and risk compromising our markets in China? For a century after New Zealand was founded in 1840, its external security arrangements and external economics arrangements were aligned. ...
The ‘50 Shades of Green’ farmers’ protest in 2019 was heavy on climate change denial, but five years on, scepticism and criticism about the idea that pine forests can save us is growing across the board. File photo: Lynn GrievesonTL;DR: Here’s the top six news items of note in climate ...
This morning the sky was bright.The birds, in their usual joyous bliss. Nature doesn’t seem to feel the heat of what might angst humans.Their calls are clear and beautiful.Just some random thoughts:MāoriPaul Goldsmith has announced his government will roll back the judiciary’s rulings on Māori Customary Marine Title, which recognises ...
In 2003, the Court of Appeal delivered its decision in Ngati Apa v Attorney-General, ruling that Māori customary title over the foreshore and seabed had not been universally extinguished, and that the Māori Land Court could determine claims and confirm title if the facts supported it. This kicked off the ...
Earlier this week at Parliament, Labour leader Chris Hipkins was applauded for saying that the response to the final report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care had to be “bigger than politics.” True, but the fine words, apologies and “we hear you” messages will soon ring ...
TL;DR: In news breaking this morning:The Ministry of Education is cutting $2 billion from its school building programme so the National-ACT-NZ First Coalition Government has enough money to deliver tax cuts; The Government has quietly lowered its child poverty reduction targets to make them easier to achieve;Te Whatu Ora-Health NZ’s ...
Kia ora. These are some stories that caught our eye this week – as always, feel free to share yours in the comments. Our header image this week (via Eke Panuku) shows the planned upgrade for the Karanga Plaza Tidal Swimming Steps. The week in Greater Auckland On ...
1. What's not to love about the way the Harris campaign is turning things around?a. Nothingb. Love all of itc. God what a reliefd. Not that it will be by any means easye. All of the above 2. Documents released by the Ministry of Health show Associate Health Minister Casey ...
Trust in me in all you doHave the faith I have in youLove will see us through, if only you trust in meWhy don't you, you trust me?In a week that saw the release of the 3,000 page Abuse in Care report Christopher Luxon was being asked about Boot Camps. ...
TL;DR: The podcast above of the weekly ‘hoon’ webinar for paying subscribers last night features co-hosts and talking about the Royal Commission Inquiry into Abuse in Carereport released this week, and with:The Kākā’s climate correspondent on a UN push to not recognise carbon offset markets and ...
TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Friday, July 26, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:Transport: Simeon Brown announced$802.9 million in funding for 18 new trains on the Wairarapa and Manawatū rail lines, which ...
The northern expressway extension from Warkworth to Whangarei is likely to require radical changes to legislation if it is going to be built within the foreseeable future. The Government’s powers to purchase land, the planning process and current restrictions on road tolling are all going to need to be changed ...
Text within this block will maintain its original spacing when publishedFirst they came for the doctors But I was confused by the numbers and costs So I didn't speak up Then they came for our police and nurses And I didn't think we could afford those costs anyway So I ...
Photo by Joshua J. Cotten on UnsplashWe’re back again after our mid-winter break. We’re still with the ‘new’ day of the week (Thursday rather than Friday) when we have our ‘hoon’ webinar with paying subscribers to The Kākā for an hour at 5 pm.Jump on this link on YouTube Livestream ...
Notes: This is a free article. Abuse in Care themes are mentioned. Video is at the bottom.BackgroundYesterday’s report into Abuse in Care revealed that at least 1 in 3 of all who went through state and faith based care were abused - often horrifically. At least, because not all survivors ...
Luxon speaks in Parliament yesterday about the Abuse in Care report. Photo: Hagen Hopkins/Getty ImagesTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy today are:PM Christopher Luxon said yesterday in tabling the Abuse in Carereport in Parliament he wanted to ‘do the ...
About a decade ago I worked with a bloke called Steve. He was the grizzled veteran coder, a few years older than me, who knew where the bodies were buried - code wise. Despite his best efforts to be approachable and friendly he could be kind of gruff, through to ...
Some of the recent announcements from the government have reminded us of posts we’ve written in the past. Here’s one from early 2020. There were plenty of reactions to the government’s infrastructure announcement a few weeks ago which saw them fund a bunch of big roading projects. One of ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:00 am on Thursday, July 25 are:News: Why Electric Kiwi is closing to new customers - and why it matters RNZ’s Susan EdmundsScoop: Government drops ...
Hi,I felt a small wet tongue snaking through one of the holes in my Crocs. It explored my big toe, darting down one side, then the other. “He’s looking for some toe cheese,” said the woman next to me, words that still haunt me to this day.Growing up in New ...
Yesterday I happily quoted the Prime Minister without fact-checking him and sure enough, it turns out his numbers were all to hell. It’s not four kg of Royal Commission report, it’s fourteen.My friend and one-time colleague-in-comms Hazel Phillips gently alerted me to my error almost as soon as I’d hit ...
TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Thursday, July 25, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day were:The Abuse in Care Royal Commission of Inquirypublished its final report yesterday.PM Christopher Luxon and The Minister responsible for ...
The Official Information Act has always been a battle between requesters seeking information, and governments seeking to control it. Information is power, so Ministers and government agencies want to manage what is released and when, for their own convenience, and legality and democracy be damned. Their most recent tactic for ...
TL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy today are:Transport and Energy Minister Simeon Brown is accelerating plans to spend at least $10 billion through Public Private Partnerships (PPPs) to extend State Highway One as a four-lane ‘Expressway’ from Warkworth to Whangarei ...
I live my life (woo-ooh-ooh)With no control in my destinyYea-yeah, yea-yeah (woo-ooh-ooh)I can bleed when I want to bleedSo come on, come on (woo-ooh-ooh)You can bleed when you want to bleedYea-yeah, come on (woo-ooh-ooh)Everybody bleed when they want to bleedCome on and bleedGovernments face tough challenges. Selling unpopular decisions to ...
Please note:To skip directly to the- parliamentary footage in the video, scroll to 1:21 To skip to audio please click on the headphone iconon the left hand side of the screenThis video / audio section is under development. ...
Given the crackdown on wasteful government spending, it behooves me to point to a high profile example of spending by the Luxon government that looks like a big, fat waste of time and money. I’m talking about the deployment of NZDF personnel to support the US-led coalition in the Red ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:40 am on Wednesday, July 24 are:Deep Dive: Chipping away at the housing crisis, including my comments RNZ/Newsroom’s The DetailNews: Government softens on asset sales, ...
As I reported about the city centre, Auckland’s rail network is also going through a difficult and disruptive period which is rapidly approaching a culmination, this will result in a significant upgrade to the whole network. Hallelujah. Also like the city centre this is an upgrade predicated on the City ...
Today, a 4 kilogram report will be delivered to Parliament. We know this is what the report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in State and Faith-based Care weighs, because our Prime Minister told us so.Some reporter had blindsided him by asking a question about something done by ...
TL;DR: As of 7:00 am on Wednesday, July 24, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:Beehive:Transport Minister Simeon Brownannounced plans to use PPPs to fund, build and run a four-lane expressway between Auckland ...
NewstalkZB host Mike Hosking, who can usually be relied on to give Prime Minister Christopher Luxon an easy run, did not do so yesterday when he interviewed him about the HealthNZ deficit. Luxon is trying to use a deficit reported last year by HealthNZ as yet another example of the ...
Back in January a StatsNZ employee gave a speech at Rātana on behalf of tangata whenua in which he insulted and criticised the government. The speech clearly violated the principle of a neutral public service, and StatsNZ started an investigation. Part of that was getting an external consultant to examine ...
Renting for life: Shared ownership initiatives are unlikely to slow the slide in home ownership by much. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy today are:A Deloittereport for Westpac has projected Aotearoa’s home-ownership rate will ...
You're broken down and tiredOf living life on a merry go roundAnd you can't find the fighterBut I see it in you so we gonna walk it outAnd move mountainsWe gonna walk it outAnd move mountainsAnd I'll rise upI'll rise like the dayI'll rise upI'll rise unafraidI'll rise upAnd I'll ...
There’s been a change in Myers Park. Down the steps from St. Kevin’s Arcade, past the grassy slopes, the children’s playground, the benches and that goat statue, there has been a transformation. The underpass for Mayoral Drive has gone from a barren, grey, concrete tunnel, to a place that thrums ...
This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections Global society may have finally slammed on the brakes for climate-warming pollution released by human fossil fuel combustion. According to the Carbon Monitor Project, the total global climate pollution released between February and May 2024 declined slightly from the amount released during the same ...
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TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Tuesday, July 23, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:Health: Shane Reti announcedthe Board of Te Whatu Ora-Health New Zealand was being replaced with Commissioner Lester Levy ...
Health NZ warned the Government at the end of March that it was running over Budget. But the reasons it gave were very different to those offered by the Prime Minister yesterday. Prime Minister Christopher Luxon blamed the “botched merger” of the 20 District Health Boards (DHBs) to create Health ...
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As a momentous, historic weekend in US politics unfolded, analysts and commentators grasped for precedents and comparisons to help explain the significance and power of the choice Joe Biden had made. The 46th president had swept the Democratic party’s primaries but just over 100 days from the election had chosen ...
TL;DR: I’m casting around for new ideas and ways of thinking about Aotearoa’s political economy to find a few solutions to our cascading and self-reinforcing housing, poverty and climate crises.Associate Professor runs an online masters degree in the economics of sustainability at Torrens University in Australia and is organising ...
The Finance and Expenditure Committee has reported back on National's Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill. The bill sets up water for privatisation, and was introduced under urgency, then rammed through select committee with no time even for local councils to make a proper submission. Naturally, national's select committee ...
Some years ago, I bought a book at Dunedin’s Regent Booksale for $1.50. As one does. Vandrad the Viking (1898), by J. Storer Clouston, is an obscure book these days – I cannot find a proper online review – but soon it was sitting on my shelf, gathering dust alongside ...
History is not on the side of the centre-left, when Democratic presidents fall behind in the polls and choose not to run for re-election. On both previous occasions in the past 75 years (Harry Truman in 1952, Lyndon Johnson in 1968) the Democrats proceeded to then lose the White House ...
This is a free articleCoverageThis morning, US President Joe Biden announced his withdrawal from the Presidential race. And that is genuinely newsworthy. Thanks for your service, President Biden, and all the best to you and yours.However, the media in New Zealand, particularly the 1News nightly bulletin, has been breathlessly covering ...
A homeless person’s camp beside a blocked-off slipped damage walkway in Freeman’s Bay: we are chasing our tail on our worsening and inter-related housing, poverty and climate crises. Photo: Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy ...
What has happened to it all?Crazy, some'd sayWhere is the life that I recognise?(Gone away)But I won't cry for yesterdayThere's an ordinary worldSomehow I have to findAnd as I try to make my wayTo the ordinary worldYesterday morning began as many others - what to write about today? I began ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:00 am on Monday, July 22 are:Today’s Must Read: Father and son live in a tent, and have done for four years, in a million ...
TL;DR: As of 7:00 am on Monday, July 22, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:US President Joe Biden announced via X this morning he would not stand for a second term.Multinational professional services firm ...
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This weekend, a friend pointed out someone who said they’d like to read my posts, but didn’t want to pay. And my first reaction was sympathy.I’ve already told folks that if they can’t comfortably subscribe, and would like to read, I’d be happy to offer free subscriptions. I don’t want ...
National: The Party of ‘Law and Order’ IntroductionThis weekend, the Government formally kicked off one of their flagship policy programs: a military style boot camp that New Zealand has experimented with over the past 50 years. Cartoon credit: Guy BodyIt’s very popular with the National Party’s Law and Orderimage, ...
Day one of the solo leg of my long journey home begins with my favourite sound: footfalls in an empty street. 5.00 am and it’s already light and already too warm, almost.If I can make the train that leaves Budapest later this hour I could be in Belgrade by nightfall; ...
Do you remember Y2K, the threat that hung over humanity in the closing days of the twentieth century? Horror scenarios of planes falling from the sky, electronic payments failing and ATMs refusing to dispense cash. As for your VCR following instructions and recording your favourite show - forget about it.All ...
Climate Change Minister Simon Watts being questioned by The Kākā’s Bernard Hickey.TL;DR: My top six things to note around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the week to July 20 were:1. A strategy that fails Zero Carbon Act & Paris targetsThe National-ACT-NZ First Coalition Government finally unveiled ...
Summary:As New Zealand loses at least 12 leaders in the public service space of health, climate, and pharmaceuticals, this month alone, directly in response to the Government’s policies and budget choices, what lies ahead may be darker than it appears. Tui examines some of those departures and draws a long ...
The Minister of Housing’s ambition is to reduce markedly the ratio of house prices to household incomes. If his strategy works it would transform the housing market, dramatically changing the prospects of housing as an investment.Leaving aside the Minister’s metaphor of ‘flooding the market’ I do not see how the ...
As previously noted, my historical fantasy piece, set in the fifth-century Mediterranean, was accepted for a Pirate Horror anthology, only for the anthology to later fall through. But in a good bit of news, it turned out that the story could indeed be re-marketed as sword and sorcery. As of ...
An employee of tobacco company Philip Morris International demonstrates a heated tobacco device. Photo: Getty ImagesTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy on Friday, July 19 are:At a time when the Coalition Government is cutting spending on health, infrastructure, education, housing ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 8:30 am on Friday, July 19 are:Scoop: NZ First Minister Casey Costello orders 50% cut to excise tax on heated tobacco products. The minister has ...
Kia ora, it’s time for another Friday roundup, in which we pull together some of the links and stories that caught our eye this week. Feel free to add more in the comments! Our header image this week shows a foggy day in Auckland town, captured by Patrick Reynolds. ...
TL;DR : Here’s the top six items climate news for Aotearoa this week, as selected by Bernard Hickey and The Kākā’s climate correspondent Cathrine Dyer. A discussion recorded yesterday is in the video above and the audio of that sent onto the podcast feed.The Government released its draft Emissions Reduction ...
Save some money, get rich and old, bring it back to Tobacco Road.Bring that dynamite and a crane, blow it up, start all over again.Roll up. Roll up. Or tailor made, if you prefer...Whether you’re selling ciggies, digging for gold, catching dolphins in your nets, or encouraging folks to flutter ...
Waiting In The Wings:For truly, if Trump is America’s un-assassinated Caesar, then J.D. Vance is America’s Octavian, the Republic’s youthful undertaker – and its first Emperor.DONALD TRUMP’S SELECTION of James D. Vance as his running-mate bodes ill for the American republic. A fervent supporter of Viktor Orban, the “illiberal” prime ...
TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Friday, July 19, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:The PSAannounced the Employment Relations Authority (ERA) had ruled in the PSA’s favour in its case against the Ministry ...
TL;DR: The podcast above of the weekly ‘hoon’ webinar for paying subscribers last night features co-hosts and talking with:The Kākā’s climate correspondent talking about the National-ACT-NZ First Government’s release of its first Emissions Reduction Plan;University of Otago Foreign Relations Professor and special guest Dr Karin von ...
Open access notablesImproving global temperature datasets to better account for non-uniform warming, Calvert, Quarterly Journal of the Royal Meteorological Society:To better account for spatial non-uniform trends in warming, a new GITD [global instrumental temperature dataset] was created that used maximum likelihood estimation (MLE) to combine the land surface ...
A late change to charter school legislation will cheat educators out of fair pay and negotiating power proving charter schools are just a vehicle to make profit out of our education system. ...
In 2004 te iwi Māori rallied against the Crown’s attempt to confiscate our coastlines and moana with the Foreshore and Seabed Act. This led to the largest hīkoi of a generation and the birth of Te Pāti Māori. 20 years later, history is repeating itself. Today the government has announced ...
It has been five and a half years since the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care was established to investigate the abuse of children, young people, and vulnerable adults within state and faith-based institutions. Yesterday, the final report - Whanaketia through pain and trauma, from darkness to light ...
The Green Party is calling on the Government to take action off the back of the International Court of Justice ruling on Israel’s illegal occupation of Palestine. ...
On Friday the International Court of Justice reaffirmed what Palestinian’s have been telling us for decades: that the occupation and colonisation of Palestinian lands by Israel is illegal and must end immediately. They also called for reparations for Palestinian’s who have lived under Israeli occupation since it began in 1967. ...
Labour calls on the Government to act after the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruled that Israel’s occupation of Palestinian Territories is illegal. ...
The 53.7 percent rise in benefit sanctions over the last year is more proof of this Government’s disdain for our communities most in need of support. ...
Aotearoa could be a country where every child grows up feeling safe, loved and with a sense of belonging in their whānau and community. But for some of our children, this is far from reality. Instead, they are trapped in a maze of intergenerational harm that they can’t escape on ...
Te Pāti Māori are calling for David Seymour to resign as Associate Health Minister in response to his call for Pharmac to ignore the Treaty of Waitangi. “This announcement is just another example of the government’s anti-Tiriti, anti-Māori agenda.” Said Co-leader and spokesperson for health, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer. “Seymour thinks it ...
The soaring price of renting is driving the rise of inflation in this country - with latest figures from Stats NZ showing rents are up 4.8 per cent on average while annual inflation is at 3.3 per cent. ...
National’s Emissions Reduction Plan will take New Zealand further from the economy we need to ensure the next generation has a stable climate and secure livelihoods. ...
Following consultation with named parties and thorough consideration of privacy interests, the Green Party is in a position to release the Executive Summary of the final report from the independent investigation into Darleen Tana. ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon should be asking serious questions of his Minister for Resources Shane Jones now it’s been revealed he misled the public about a dinner with mining companies that he didn’t declare and said wasn’t pre-arranged. ...
Te Pāti Māori have submitted to the Justice Select Committee against the Sentencing (Reinstating Three Strikes) Amendment Bill. The bill will further entrench racism in our justice system and fails to focus on rehabilitation. “Reinstating Three Strikes will empower a systematically racist system and exacerbate the overrepresentation of Māori in ...
The Transport and Infrastructure Committee is set to make a determination on the Residential Tenancies Amendment (RTA) Bill in the coming weeks. “This legislation will give landlords the power to kick our whānau out onto the street for no reason” said Housing spokesperson, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi. “Their solution to the housing ...
“National’s campaign was about tackling crime and the best they can do is a two-year long Ministerial Advisory Group,” Labour justice spokesperson Duncan Webb said. ...
“There are more examples of charter schools failing their students than there are success stories. The coalition Government is driving to dismantle our public school system and instead promote a privatised, competitive structure that puts profits before kids,” Jan Tinetti said. ...
“This government is choosing to deliberately mislead and withhold information, keeping our people in the dark about this government’s agenda and the future of our mokopuna,” said co-leader and spokesperson for Health, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer. The call comes after the demand from the Chief Ombudsman that Associate Minister of Health, Casey ...
“Today’s climate announcement by Simon Watts makes clear the National Government is simply paying lip service to meeting its climate change targets,” Megan Woods said. ...
National is choosing to make life harder for workers by taking away the rights our communities have fought hard for. Here's how they’re taking workers backwards. ...
Australia, Canada and New Zealand today issued the following statement on the need for an urgent ceasefire in Gaza and the risk of expanded conflict between Hizballah and Israel. The situation in Gaza is catastrophic. The human suffering is unacceptable. It cannot continue. We remain unequivocal in our condemnation of ...
Attorney-General Judith Collins today reminded all State and faith-based institutions of their legal obligation to preserve records relevant to the safety and wellbeing of those in its care. “The Abuse in Care Inquiry’s report has found cases where records of the most vulnerable people in State and faith‑based institutions were ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says the Government’s online safety website for children and young people has reached one million page views. “It is great to see so many young people and their families accessing the site Keep It Real Online to learn how to stay safe online, and manage ...
Tēnā tātou katoa, Ngā mihi te rangi, ngā mihi te whenua, ngā mihi ki a koutou, kia ora mai koutou. Thank you for the opportunity to be here and the invitation to speak at this 50th anniversary conference. I acknowledge all those who have gone before us and paved the ...
New Zealand’s payroll providers have successfully prepared to ensure 3.5 million individuals will, from Wednesday next week, be able to keep more of what they earn each pay, says Finance Minister Nicola Willis and Revenue Minister Simon Watts. “The Government's tax policy changes are legally effective from Wednesday. Delivering this tax ...
An experimental vineyard which will help futureproof the wine sector has been opened in Blenheim by Associate Regional Development Minister Mark Patterson. The covered vineyard, based at the New Zealand Wine Centre – Te Pokapū Wāina o Aotearoa, enables controlled environmental conditions. “The research that will be produced at the Experimental ...
The Coalition Government has confirmed the indicative regional breakdown of North Island Weather Event (NIWE) funding for state highway recovery projects funded through Budget 2024, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Regions in the North Island suffered extensive and devastating damage from Cyclone Gabrielle and the 2023 Auckland Anniversary Floods, and ...
Indonesia’s Foreign Minister, Retno Marsudi, will visit New Zealand next week, Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced. “Indonesia is important to New Zealand’s security and economic interests and is our closest South East Asian neighbour,” says Mr Peters, who is currently in Laos to engage with South East Asian partners. ...
He aha te kai a te rangatira? He kōrero, he kōrero, he kōrero. The government has reaffirmed its commitment to supporting the aspirations of Ngāti Maniapoto, Minister for Māori Development Tama Potaka says. “My thanks to Te Nehenehenui Trust – Ngāti Maniapoto for bringing their important kōrero to a ministerial ...
Transport Minister Simeon Brown has thanked outgoing Chair of the Civil Aviation Authority, Janice Fredric, for her service to the board.“I have received Ms Fredric’s resignation from the role of Chair of the Civil Aviation Authority,” Mr Brown says.“On behalf of the Government, I want to thank Ms Fredric for ...
The Government is proposing legislation to overturn a Court of Appeal decision and amend the Marine and Coastal Area Act in order to restore Parliament’s test for Customary Marine Title, Treaty Negotiations Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “Section 58 required an applicant group to prove they have exclusively used and occupied ...
Regulation Minister David Seymour says that opposition parties have united in bad faith, opposing what they claim are ‘dangerous changes’ to the Early Childhood Education sector, despite no changes even being proposed yet. “Issues with affordability and availability of early childhood education, and the complexity of its regulation, has led ...
After receiving more than 740 submissions in the first 20 days, Regulation Minister David Seymour is asking the Ministry for Regulation to extend engagement on the early childhood education regulation review by an extra two weeks. “The level of interest has been very high, and from the conversations I’ve been ...
The Coalition Government is investing $802.9 million into the Wairarapa and Manawatū rail lines as part of a funding agreement with the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA), KiwiRail, and the Greater Wellington and Horizons Regional Councils to deliver more reliable services for commuters in the lower North Island, Transport Minister Simeon ...
Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has announced his intention to appoint a Crown Manager to both Hawke’s Bay Regional and Wairoa District Councils to speed up the delivery of flood protection work in Wairoa."Recent severe weather events in Wairoa this year, combined with damage from Cyclone Gabrielle in 2023 have ...
Mr Speaker, this is a day that many New Zealanders who were abused in State care never thought would come. It’s the day that this Parliament accepts, with deep sorrow and regret, the Report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care. At the heart of this report are the ...
For the first time, the Government is formally acknowledging some children and young people at Lake Alice Psychiatric Hospital experienced torture. The final report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in State and Faith-based Care “Whanaketia – through pain and trauma, from darkness to light,” was tabled in Parliament ...
The Government has acknowledged the nearly 2,400 courageous survivors who shared their experiences during the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Historical Abuse in State and Faith-Based Care. The final report from the largest and most complex public inquiry ever held in New Zealand, the Royal Commission Inquiry “Whanaketia – through ...
With a week to go before hard-working New Zealanders see personal income tax relief for the first time in fourteen years, 513,000 people have used the Budget tax calculator to see how much they will benefit, says Finance Minister Nicola Willis. “Tax relief is long overdue. From next Wednesday, personal income ...
Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Brooke van Velden says a bill that has passed its first reading will improve parental leave settings and give non-biological parents more flexibility as primary carer for their child. The Regulatory Systems Amendment Bill (No3), passed its first reading this morning. “It includes a change ...
Two Bills designed to improve regulation and make it easier to do business have passed their first reading in Parliament, says Economic Development Minister Melissa Lee. The Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill and Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill make key changes to legislation administered by the Ministry ...
New legislation paves the way for greater competition in sectors such as banking and electricity, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly says. “Competitive markets boost productivity, create employment opportunities and lift living standards. To support competition, we need good quality regulation but, unfortunately, a recent OECD report ranked New ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says lotteries for charitable purposes, such as those run by the Heart Foundation, Coastguard NZ, and local hospices, will soon be allowed to operate online permanently. “Under current laws, these fundraising lotteries are only allowed to operate online until October 2024, after which ...
The Coalition Government is accelerating work on the new four-lane expressway between Auckland and Whangārei as part of its Roads of National Significance programme, with an accelerated delivery model to deliver this project faster and more efficiently, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “For too long, the lack of resilient transport connections ...
Sir Don McKinnon will travel to Viet Nam this week as a Special Envoy of the Government, Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced. “It is important that the Government give due recognition to the significant contributions that General Secretary Nguyen Phu Trong made to New Zealand-Viet Nam relations,” Mr ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says newly appointed Commissioner, Grant Illingworth KC, will help deliver the report for the first phase of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into COVID-19 Lessons, due on 28 November 2024. “I am pleased to announce that Mr Illingworth will commence his appointment as ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters travels to Laos this week to participate in a series of Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN)-led Ministerial meetings in Vientiane. “ASEAN plays an important role in supporting a peaceful, stable and prosperous Indo-Pacific,” Mr Peters says. “This will be our third visit to ...
Construction of a new mental health facility at Te Nikau Grey Hospital in Greymouth is today one step closer, Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey says. “This $27 million facility shows this Government is delivering on its promise to boost mental health care and improve front line services,” Mr Doocey says. ...
New Zealand is committing nearly $50 million to a package supporting sustainable Pacific fisheries development over the next four years, Foreign Minister Winston Peters and Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones announced today. “This support consisting of a range of initiatives demonstrates New Zealand’s commitment to assisting our Pacific partners ...
Associate Education Minister David Seymour says proposed changes to the Education and Training Amendment Bill will ensure charter schools have more flexibility to negotiate employment agreements and are equipped with the right teaching resources. “Cabinet has agreed to progress an amendment which means unions will not be able to initiate ...
In response to serious concerns around oversight, overspend and a significant deterioration in financial outlook, the Board of Health New Zealand will be replaced with a Commissioner, Health Minister Dr Shane Reti announced today. “The previous government’s botched health reforms have created significant financial challenges at Health NZ that, without ...
Minister for Space and Science, Innovation and Technology Judith Collins will travel to Adelaide tomorrow for space and science engagements, including speaking at the Australian Space Forum. While there she will also have meetings and visits with a focus on space, biotechnology and innovation. “New Zealand has a thriving space ...
Climate Change Minister Simon Watts will travel to China on Saturday to attend the Ministerial on Climate Action meeting held in Wuhan. “Attending the Ministerial on Climate Action is an opportunity to advocate for New Zealand climate priorities and engage with our key partners on climate action,” Mr Watts says. ...
Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones is travelling to the Solomon Islands tomorrow for meetings with his counterparts from around the Pacific supporting collective management of the region’s fisheries. The 23rd Pacific Islands Forum Fisheries Committee and the 5th Regional Fisheries Ministers’ Meeting in Honiara from 23 to 26 July ...
The Government today launched the Military Style Academy Pilot at Te Au rere a te Tonga Youth Justice residence in Palmerston North, an important part of the Government’s plan to crackdown on youth crime and getting youth offenders back on track, Minister for Children, Karen Chhour said today. “On the ...
The Government has welcomed news the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) has begun work to replace nine priority bridges across the country to ensure our state highway network remains resilient, reliable, and efficient for road users, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.“Increasing productivity and economic growth is a key priority for the ...
Acting Prime Minister David Seymour has been in contact throughout the evening with senior officials who have coordinated a whole of government response to the global IT outage and can provide an update. The Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet has designated the National Emergency Management Agency as the ...
New Zealand and Japan will continue to step up their shared engagement with the Pacific, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. “New Zealand and Japan have a strong, shared interest in a free, open and stable Pacific Islands region,” Mr Peters says. “We are pleased to be finding more ways ...
New developments in the heart of North Island forestry country will reinvigorate their communities and boost economic development, Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones visited Kaingaroa and Kawerau in Bay of Plenty today to open a landmark community centre in the former and a new connecting road in ...
President Adeang, fellow Ministers, honourable Diet Member Horii, Ambassadors, distinguished guests. Minasama, konnichiwa, and good afternoon, everyone. Distinguished guests, it’s a pleasure to be here with you today to talk about New Zealand’s foreign policy reset, the reasons for it, the values that underpin it, and how it ...
Last summer when Matairangi burned, Ginny and Tom stood at the window of their lounge, watching kākā shoot skyward from the burning trees. From the distance, they looked to Ginny like pages torn from books and thrown into a bonfire. It was Tom, voice tight, who told her it was ...
Opinion: The Canadian short story writer Alice Munro – winner of the Nobel Prize in Literature in 2013 – died in May at the age of 92. Her work was about “the damage people inflict on one another in the name of love”, Deborah Treisman wrote in the New Yorker. ...
This month marks two years since the most powerful telescope ever built sent its first pictures back to earth. From its lofty vantage point, beyond the moon in orbit around the sun, the James Webb Space Telescope was tuned to observe the first stars and galaxies being born soon after ...
Comment: After Climate Change Minister Simon Watts’ preview several weeks ago, I had some optimism about the Government’s emissions reduction plan. Now I’ve read the discussion document, that hope has been dashed. How can the Government propose a plan that wants to take New Zealand taxpayers’ hard-earned money, and spend ...
Christopher Luxon: hurdles The little man from National jumps hurdles in his sleep. He’s quite good at it in his dreams and even though the reality doesn’t quite match up you have to give him credit for getting up every morning and crashing into the very first hurdle of the ...
Comment: It was a good two hours into the conversation when Tyrone Marks raised the most basic of questions when I first spoke to him in 2017. “They didn’t explain the things they did to me. They never told me why. And they still haven’t. There’s no explanation for it. ...
Madeleine Chapman rounds out Death Week on The Spinoff with a final recommendation. You can read all of our Death Week coverage here. Nothing forces you to reflect on your life and relationships quite like proximity to death. For those whose nearest and dearest have died, there are reasonably obvious ...
Whitney Greene takes us through her life in television, including the TV character she’d like to plan a funeral for and her cow lung catastrophe on The Traitors NZ. “If the phone rings, I have to answer it,” Whitney Greene from The Traitors NZ warns as we begin our My ...
Maddie Ballard reviews the debut essay collection of Pōneke writer Flora Feltham.In ‘The Raw Material’, the longest essay in Flora Feltham’s dazzling debut collection, the author heads out for a run after hours of weaving and sees the world turn to textile. “Pounding along the Parade, I saw the ...
Andy Christiansen, one half of the experimental rock-pop duo TRiPS, shares the tunes inspiring the band’s perfect weekend and new release. “Good speakers, good food, good music, no distractions”: that’s all you need to enjoy the psychedelic stylings of TRiPS, a new band formed by Fly My Pretties’ Barnaby Weir ...
Celebrating our quadrennial opportunity to become experts in a bunch of sports we never normally watch.The games of the XXXIII Olympiad are upon us. Paris will host this year’s showcase of sporting and athletic prowess, which means some late-night and early-morning viewing for us in Aotearoa.But what sports ...
The photograph is striking and beautiful, but also disturbing – a reminder that my love for John was often entangled in shame.The Sunday Essay is made possible thanks to the support of Creative New Zealand.In the spring of 1980, in Dunedin, shortly before his death, someone took a photograph ...
Get to know Babushka, our latest Dog of the Month. This feature was offered as a reward during our What’s Eating Aotearoa PledgeMe campaign. Thank you to Babu’s humans, Jo and Isabel, for their support. Dog name: Babushka (Babu for short) Age: 2Breed: Border Collie X poodleIf rescued, ...
Pacific Media Watch A Lebanese photojournalist who was severely wounded during an Israeli air strike in south Lebanon carried the Olympic torch in Paris this week in honour of her peers who have been wounded and killed in the field — especially in Gaza and Lebanon. Christina Assi of Agence ...
The first report in a five-part web series focused on the 15th Triennial Conference of Pacific Women taking place in the Marshall Islands this week.SPECIAL REPORT:By Netani Rika in Majuro Women continue to fight for justice 70 years after the first nuclear tests by the United States caused ...
Christopher Luxon has joined with Australia and Canada's leaders in voicing support for US President Joe Biden's ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra The 2022 election brought the “teal wave” into parliament. The next election will test whether teals, who occupy what were Liberal seats, and other independents can maintain their momentum. Joining us on the Podcast ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Ian Musgrave, Senior lecturer in Pharmacology, University of Adelaide Pixavri/Shutterstock A major Federal Court class action has been dismissed this week after Justice Michael Lee ruled there was not enough evidence to prove the weedkiller Roundup causes cancer. Plaintiff Kelvin ...
In The Week in Politics: politicians have to decide what to do about child abuse, Health NZ is booked in for major surgery and Darleen Tana returns. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Clare Corbould, Associate Professor, Contemporary Histories Research Group, Deakin University Mainstream media are surprisingly muted at the prospect of the world’s most powerful nation being led for the first time by a woman – specifically a woman of colour, Vice President Kamala ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Rebecca Bennett, PhD Student, Associate Research Fellow, Deakin University Last week, a drone delivery company called Wing (owned by Google’s parent company, Alphabet) started operating in Melbourne. Some 250,000 residents in parts of the city’s eastern suburbs can now order food from ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jonathan Foo, Lecturer, Physiotherapy, Monash University pikselstock/Shutterstock In the next 40 years in Australia, it’s predicted the number of Australians aged 65 and over will more than double, while the number of people aged 85 and over will more than triple. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Katrina Grant, Research Associate, Power Institute for Arts and Visual Culture, University of Sydney Jonas Åkerström’s 1790 work, Session of the Accademia dell’Arcadia on August 17 1788.Nationalmuseum/Cecilia Heisser Ever wondered whether you’d have a better chance at winning an Olympic gold ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Alexandra Jones, Program Lead, Food Governance, George Institute for Global Health wavebreakmedia/Shutterstock On Thursday, Australian and New Zealand food ministers at state, federal and national levels met to thrash out what’s next for health star ratings on packaged foods. Now, after ...
The Abuse in Care report found many Pacific survivors lost their connections to their culture and language, resulting in trauma that has been carried from generation to generation. ...
In the regulatory review, ECC intends to suggest that ERO focus on curriculum delivery reviews rather than the Ministry, because it’s not efficient or effective to have two agencies with radically different approaches climbing over each other. ...
Te Rūnanga Nui o Ngā Kura Kaupapa Māori invites the current government to work in partnership with them to develop a pathway forward, including the development of a parallel pathway and meaningful policy and strategy for Kura Kaupapa Māori ...
If you haven’t started watching yet, Tara Ward begs you to reconsider. This is an excerpt from our weekly pop culture newsletter Rec Room. Sign up here. In the world of New Zealand reality television, we have many gems in our crown. There’s the delicious second season of the Celebrity Treasure ...
A new poem by Fiona Kidman. The clothes of the dead I did not keep my mother’s furry red beret for long nor the stringy scarves that adorned the necks of my aunts, although I have kept tag ends of gold, the rings and trinkets they wore, the brooches no ...
The government’s announcement that it will re-open the foreshore and seabed controversy by changing the rules on recognising centuries-old Māori customary title for a third time goes against the rule of law and New Zealand values,” Mr Tipa says. ...
The only published and available best-selling indie book chart in New Zealand is the top 10 sales list recorded every week at Unity Books’ stores in High St, Auckland, and Willis St, Wellington.AUCKLAND1 Lioness by Emily Perkins (Bloomsbury, $25) Roarrrr! Perkins’ brilliant, award-winning, Marian-Keyes anointed, darkly funny, long ...
The 2004 Act vested ownership of the foreshore and seabed in the Crown, extinguishing any Māori claims to ownership and causing widespread outrage and protests among Māori communities. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Antje Deckert, Associate Professor (Criminology), Auckland University of Technology Getty Images Despite the connection between institutional harm and gang membership made clear in this week’s mammoth royal commission abuse-in care report, the government seems unlikely to soften its “get tough on ...
From Lewis Clareburt in the swimming to the start of the rowing – the first seven days of Paris 2024 promise to be big for New Zealand. There are few events that bring the country together quite like an Olympic Games. Nothing quite matches the excitement of getting up in ...
Groundbreaking local science just showed up in the most surprising of places: the season finale of The Kardashians. In the season five finale of The Kardashians last night, several members of the family gathered together in one of their signature empty, cream-coloured rooms to hear test results that had been ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Amin Saikal, Emeritus professor of Middle Eastern and Central Asian Studies, Australian National University The Middle East is on the brink of a possibly devastating regional war, with hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah reaching an extremely dangerous level. Washington has engaged in ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Laura Elizabeth Eades, Rheumatologist, Monash University Lupus is an inflammatory autoimmune illness, where the body’s immune system mistakenly attacks itself. Lupus can affect virtually any part of the body, although it most commonly affects the skin, joints and kidneys. The symptoms ...
A law firm that specialises in working with survivors of abuse in State care is disappointed that the Government fails to recognise that its boot camps can be directly compared to previous boot camps from the 1990s and 2000s. ...
Dying is a natural part of life, like updating your Wof or seeing your hairdresser, but without the word-of-mouth recs that help guarantee a good service. What if we changed that? Dying Reviews received by The Spinoff have had the names of organisations redacted while Hospice NZ collects further data. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jonti Horner, Professor (Astrophysics), University of Southern Queensland Mike Lewinski/Flickr, CC BY On any clear night, if you gaze skywards long enough, chances are you’ll see a meteor streaking through the sky. Some nights, however, are better than others. At ...
Despite having no bars or other designated spaces for lesbians, Auckland boasts a small but mighty lesbian museum. So how did it get here? The past 18 months has brought increasing hostility towards the queer community across Aotearoa. Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull’s anti-trans rally in Tamaki Makaurau last March led to a ...
Poneke Antifascist Coalition has invited Wellingtonians to stand in solidarity with the Kanak people at 12pm today outside the French Embassy in Wellington. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Peter Layton, Visiting Fellow, Strategic Studies, Griffith University Drones are the signature technology of the Ukraine war. A few miniature aircraft designs were used in the war’s early days, but an incredible array of drones have now evolved. There are different types, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Mark Slee, Associate Professor, Clinical Academic Neurologist, Flinders University Francisco Gonzelez/Unsplash Migraine is many things, but one thing it’s not is “just a headache”. “Migraine” comes from the Greek word “hemicrania”, referring to the common experience of migraine being predominantly ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Lee White, Senior Lecturer and Horizon Fellow, School of Social and Political Sciences, University of Sydney Australia was slow to introduce minimum building standards for energy efficiency. The Nationwide House Energy Rating Scheme (NatHERS) only came into force in 2003. Older homes ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Steven Sherwood, Professor of Atmospheric Sciences, Climate Change Research Centre, UNSW Sydney The past century of human-induced warming has increased rainfall variability over 75% of the Earth’s land area – particularly over Australia, Europe and eastern North America, new research shows. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Tony Heynen, Program Coordinator, Sustainable Energy, The University of Queensland A temporary stadium in the Champ-de-Mars, ParisEkaterina Pokrovsky/Shutterstock As Paris prepares to host the Olympic and Paralympic Games, the sustainability of the event is coming under scrutiny. The organisers have promoted ...
A night of karaoke and community in a pub that feels like a memory. You’d barely even notice it, unless you knew to look. Tucked away behind a liquor store on busy Constable Street is the capital’s last great pub. Newtown Sports Bar is an emblem of the pub culture ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Ian Wright, Professor in Marine Geology, University of Canterbury Louise Corcoran/Getty Images The decline in the number of doctoral candidates at New Zealand universities is a worrying sign for the country’s effort to build a knowledge-based economy. Aotearoa New Zealand’s ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Laurie Berg, Associate Professor, University of Technology Sydney defotoberg/Shutterstock Migrant worker exploitation is entrenched in workplaces across Australia. Tragically, a deep fear of immigration consequences means most unlawful employer conduct goes unreported. On Wednesday, however, the government officially launched a ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Vaughan Cruickshank, Senior Lecturer in Health and Physical Education, University of Tasmania Paris is about to host its third summer Olympics. While we don’t yet know what the legacy of this year’s games will be, let’s take the opportunity to reflect on ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Hugh Breakey, Deputy Director, Institute for Ethics, Governance & Law, Griffith University In the wake of the assassination attempt on former US President Donald Trump, there were calls from bothsides of US politics, as well as internationally, to reduce the brutal, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Keith Rathbone, Senior Lecturer, Modern European History and Sports History, Macquarie University Two high-profile assaults on Australians in Paris have raised concerns about security ahead of the Olympic Games. On Saturday evening, a young woman was allegedly sexually assaulted by a ...
Dying is inevitable and, so it seems, is it costing a lot, writes Stewart Sowman-Lund in today’s extract from The Bulletin. To receive The Bulletin in full each weekday, sign up here.The cost of dying ...
The government took Joyce Harris's first baby and sent her off to a girls' home. Half a century on - and out of oceans of hurt - it asked her to be a mother figure. ...
It’s the deadliest fictional town in the country, but which death has been the most bonkers? Alex Casey looks back at 10 seasons of The Brokenwood Mysteries to find out. Warning: The following ranking story contains famous New Zealand actors appearing to be dead (not alive). The Spinoff has been ...
Water cremation is the biggest thing to happen to the death industry in the last 100 years. Alex Casey meets the people trying to bring it to Aotearoa. Through a set of mirrored doors down the industrial end of Christchurch’s St Asaph Street, death is getting a new lease on ...
NONFICTION 1 The Last Secret Agent by Pippa Latour & Jude Dobson (Allen & Unwin, $37.99) 2 The Life of Dai by Dai Henwood and Jaquie Brown (HarperCollins, $39.99) 3 A Life Less Punishing by Matt Heath (Allen & Unwin, $37.99) 4 Waitohu by Hinemoa Elder (Penguin Random House, $35) ...
Winston is on the election warpath. He's going to deal with errant Maori and eliminate all forms of wokery from government. But, I've always found amongst the bluster and bs that is Winston, there's usually a gem of a policy to be found. This time around it's his suggestion to make it a criminal offence to obstruct or assault emergency first responders. Winston probably got that idea from a similar British law that's recently been updated allowing up to two years jail for offenders.
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2020/sep/15/maximum-jail-term-attacking-emergency-workers-doubled
In my experience offenders in NZ fall mainly into two groups: snotty nose middleclass white kids who have never been told 'no,' or feral gang bangers who threaten emergency workers with assault or death if they don't fix their bro on the spot.
The police response in those incidents has always bemused me. Police don't generally arrest offenders on the spot, but try moving them on multiple times.
A good law if implemented by any political party.
A major tidal energy project is up and running in the Orkneys: see https://orbitalmarine.com/o2/
It is a floating turbine system that seems innovative. Its rotors can provide power no matter which way the tide is running.
Shouldn't we be doing the same thing in NZ? There must be a likely site in Cook Strait where there are strong currents.
Coupled with Wellington's wind farms, it could mean a huge reduction in reliance on fossil fuels.
It’s been tried here at least once.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaipara_Tidal_Power_Station
Thanks for the link to the lecture – I'll watch it.
Your welcome. it makes for grim listening but its always better to know what we have to work with…and its a lot less than most assume.
HT, Thanks for the topic and link. There must be a multitude of sites around Aotearoa for such turbines. Basically 4 times a day guaranteed output that could be used in conjunction with our hydro storage.
I am wondering if The Standard should have a blanket ban on the word Terf.
Quite apart from it being derisory and anti women it does not describe the role or point of view of women who have concerns.
Terf is a trans generated word of distain, disgust etc at women. It does not describe our views merely their reaction to our views.
It is not required in the discussions we have on TS.
There is an alternative to describe us and that is GCF
Sometimes when we are quoting the quote may include 'Terf 'we could put the word (sic) in brackets after, so '…..terf(sic).
sic
used in brackets after a copied or quoted word that appears odd or erroneous to show that the word is quoted exactly as it stands in the original…..
https://languages.oup.com/google-dictionary-en/
PS I am aware that some GCF have tried to reclaim this word as a way of being sarcastic about the 'cause'
Thank you. I call it out wherever I see it. And you are right, there are groups that use it -often disguised, to indicate that this is a group for women, not for sex mimics. I belong to a crafting group that uses the initials – which was set up when obvious autogynephiliac men invaded a couple of knitting and crochet groups demanding that we "validate" their "femaleness" and their various self modeled constructions.
I really don't believe in banning words. If people want to call me a terf, that is up to. them. It usually alerts to the fact that they have no good arguements re gender ideology and is part of a playbook of no debate and smearing. But I appreciate your point Shanreigh.
I commented on Mickey Savages post "debating with Nazis" that I was reading an interesting book called Bad Arguements (its a compilation of 100 arguements writtern by various phiolosphy academics). One was about when people bring Hitler and Nazis into a debate. Those who bring up Nazis in an arguement are seen as conceding defeat of the arguement. I tend to regard Terf the same way. Although I do like the commenter who suggested Terf be changed to Perf (Penis exclusionary radical feminist)
I agree.
A replacement word will soon be found to dehumanise the "other", so let it continue. The accusations also lose their potency, when universally applied.
I prefer PERL – penis exclusionary radical lesbian. Happy to put my hand up for either of those.
perf is too close to perv.
penis exclusionary radical vagina?
People who believe in polite and productive discussion tend to avoid inflammatory words or words that deliberately misrepresent the position of others. I do not call people "Nazis", I try to avoid "fascist", though I might use "proto-fascist" to suggest a tendency. I do not call people "TERFs" and I do not refer to transwomen as "he", though I might if the trans identity was clearly an intentional ruse.
However, none of this is the point. I don't imagine for a minute that my personal beliefs are grounds for policing the English lexicon.
Polonius: What do you read my lord?
Hamlet: Words, words, words…
There have been some excellent responses so far all of which I agree with.
The best argument is that allowing the word does let us easily identify the bad faith commentators as most good faith commentators would use (sic) or other words to distance themselves from the slur.
Faith restored!
it doesn't get used that often on TS as a slur. Where people use it as a descriptor I point out the problems and link to terfisaslur. I have also moderated on its use and will continue to do so. If you see someone using it, you can reply to any comment of mine with a link and I will take a look.
It's a common tactic, using words that aren't 100 % accurate but are about the vibe.
For example using anti-vaxxer to describe attendees of the Parliament Grounds protest, regardless of how often it was pointed out how inaccurate it was.
I use/d anti vax/anti vaxxer as a shorthand to describe people who were not getting the vaccination, ie for non medical reasons, did not want others to and thought that by offering vaccinations that Govt was over reaching in some way. Not to mention the people who had been deluded by various people saying the vaccines had nanobots, magnets, trackers etc. I also could not see why being anti vaccination also often meant being anti wearing a mask
To me the protection of sick people in hospital, older people in rest homes, children was more important to the country as a whole during the time of the emergency powers used in the pandemic. These were more important than to cater for people who did not believe the science.
I think in less fraught times we are more accepting of those with this type of view.
The parliamentary protest was a gathering of all sorts of people who felt they had a grievance. Not just those concerned about Covid.
Hence my dad's advice to me when he knew he could not stop me marching. protesting
'Have a look to the left of you , have a look to the right of you
If you don't like what you see, leave'
People coat tail onto to causes.
Using words like T**f, a word used by the transgender community (around 3% perhaps) of the population) to describe 51% of the population seems a little different to me.
Turf the terf
As weka explained in another thread, banning is mostly for behaviour (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-01-04-2023/#comment-1943140). I think we can tolerate offensive words in robust debate, even when they’re not (at all) necessary and/or can be avoided. The seriousness of being offensive depends on context, intent, and perception. That said, in rare occasions we temporarily put words or word combinations in the Auto-Moderation list (filter) to pre-emptively capture comments from problematic comments who show recidivist behaviour (i.e. they won’t listen or are slow-learners). (NB sometimes, the word itself is not offensive but highly idiosyncratic of the offending commenter). If it is serious enough, we leave a Mod note in the comment when we release it from the Auto-Mod queue. When things settle down again, we remove the word, also because it creates extra work for the Mods. NB most bans are preceded by at least one warning because we encourage positive behaviour and prefer not to ban. You may also have noticed that occasionally we delete serious insults in comments and mark this by [deleted]. This can be for various reasons too, but generally it is to avoid the start of flame wars, without actually changing the content of the comment. I think we have it about right on this site![angel angel](https://cdn2.thestandard.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/ark-wysiwyg-comment-editor/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/angel_smile.png?x42494)
I agree TS has it about right. I was sick & tired of reading that word repeated ad nauseam by people who really should know better if they were aware of the issues (not on TS so much but other places)
I am now accepting that to leave it & mark it say is better to identify the bad from the good.
A woman, Katrina Biggs, with 'But the Emperor has no clothes' look at the violence against women, women's issues and how this has culminated in the award of Young NZer of the Year to an anti women, anti women's rights, anti freech speech advocate
She concludes:
https://aboldwoman.substack.com/p/young-new-zealander-of-the-year-award?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
Helen Joyce also has a good piece up:
https://www.thehelenjoyce.com/joyce-activated-issue-42/
Yes a lot of peope on TS don't read the Daily Blog, but Martyn wrote a column on this and the comments were full of people saying they will withdraw their accounts from Kiwibank.
As a KB customer, I hope Grant Robertson will bail the bank out if it fails due to a rush on money..
It is truly disgusted that Lal was awarded young NZ of the year. He never condemned the violence, does anyone know if he was more actively involved in it?
Of what Lal et al don't realize is that this is that this provides another wake up call for all those members of the genneral public who haven't quite realized how anti women trans rights activists are.
Chole Swarbrick defended the protesters (and failed to condemn the violence) saying it was a joyous celebrations of trans (or words to that effect)
Such a disappointment seeing Chloe use all the meaningless cliches
Trans Joy eh?
Oh the Rapture!
Its not the trans protesters that I find objectionable, its the capture of a valid message espoused by Terf women by their misogynistic, transphobic, homophobic Nazi support crew. Surely the antithesis of feminism.
"its the capture of a valid message espoused by Terf women by their misogynistic, transphobic, homophobic Nazi support crew. "
What valid message? And how is it captured?
Purposefully ignoring the rest because I'm trying to understand what your main point is here.
Oh ffs. Is that really where you’re at? 🙄
It's crystal clear the post is referencing trans supporters having their placards taken off them.
Psych Nurse is of course at liberty to confirm or deny.
What post? There is no link on this thread.
Psych Nurse's post directly above the one you replied to and quoted 🙄
Whaaa?
Some valid message that "Terfs " endorse has been taken up by xxxx – various insults xxxx -Nazi support crew
But what is that valid message?
Psych nurse?
Any message on anyone's placard or banner contains a valid message to them holding it, whether you agree with it or not.
My clearly stated opinion is the nature of the debate shown here is quite deceitful.
And even if it's not a sign or banner but just the pro trans message in general, it's still perfectly valid for those who hold or espouse it.
Even if it is built on hate or fabrication?
as far as I can tell psych nurse is objecting to GC positions being coopted by Nazis.
You're correct, mate, me and Molly appear to have got the wrong end of the stick, but validity is still the purview of the holder.
"…me and Molly appear to have got the wrong end of the stick"
I asked questions of psych nurse to clarify – whereas you made an assumption – and ran with it – so you include me in your pseudo-acknowledgement above?
Why don't we just wait for psych nurses reply?
I didn’t need to wait. As an honest person, I admit I probably misread the post, and have now acknowledged it publicly.
Guessing you are well practiced…![laugh laugh](https://cdn2.thestandard.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/ark-wysiwyg-comment-editor/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/teeth_smile.png?x42494)
Don't know why you're laughing at my honesty but anyone reading can consider both our points, and see who answers sincerely.
Edit: Posted before your edit.
"…me and Molly appear to have got the wrong end of the stick".
Sincerely.
@The Al1en
"Sincerely"
Molly, psych nurse's comment was straightforward and easily comprehended.
Sometimes when we hold fixed views on an issue and we rush to defend a position, it gets in the way of good comprehension, especially when we are reading.
Robert.
I only asked for clarification, and was not the only one who didn't find it "straightforward and easily comprehended."
The Al1en also made an assumption, like you right now, and apologised.
Psych nurse clarified several hours later.
"Sometimes when we hold fixed views on an issue and we rush to defend a position, it gets in the way of good comprehension, especially when we are reading."
Link to where I made any comment in this thread based on assumption.
Or preferably, take heed of your own words, because I am not the one who needs them.
"Purposefully ignoring the rest because I'm trying to understand what your main point is here."
I found the whole comment simple to comprehend.
Must've been having a moment of clarity in an otherwise befuddled life.
… alternatively, befuddlement IS clarity to you.
I wondered at your criticism of my reading comprehension and so tested myself with psych nurse's comment. I was pleased by the result. You might reflect upon your own response.
The Al1en did.
Robert, if you expect me to retract my justified criticisms of your engagement methods, then you'll be waiting a while.
If you persist in asking me to apologise – for something I did not do – just because The Al1en did apologise for something he did, then, again, you'll be waiting a while.
Deal with your hurt feelings resulting from my comments either by giving them no merit, or by considering if they do indeed have merit and improving.
What you appear to be doing here is lashing out, which contributes nothing to any political discourse.
This comment is a prime example of where this kind of exchange ends up, so I'm leaving this – and any other such threads (unless provoked when my patience is low, and my energy is high – which would be against my better judgement).
I will ask if you could refrain from this type of comment stalking when interacting with me, when your responses contain only trite sentences, no pertinent information and zero political analysis.
Let's see how that goes.
"Robert, if you expect me to retract…"
I don't.
"If you persist in asking me to apologise"
I'm not.
"Deal with your hurt feelings resulting from my comments…"
I have none.
"What you appear to be doing here is lashing out…"
Seriously?? Lashing out???
Hmmm…
"I will ask if you could refrain from this type of comment stalking when interacting with me, when your responses contain only trite sentences, no pertinent information and zero political analysis."
Ask away.
Our cognitive styles seem not to mesh.
No worries.
I'll hold the fort while you are away.
Peace and love etc.
Exactly, woman have every right complaining about transwomen sharing toilets, changing rooms and sport with transwomen, but they need to chose their allies. Misogynists, homophobes and transphobes are not friends. What is it that's said about lying with dogs.
OK I will wade in, if all you have are flogged out labels and sneers – you have lost the argument.
As human beings trans people, like anyone else, had the right to demand the same access to legal rights and human dignity as anyone else. No-one here for one second has denied you this.
What you then went and did was to collapse your entire humanity down to your mere sexual identity. And then demand everyone else accept every implication of this.
I agree, but I see the problem being less about KJK and her associations with the far right, than the fact that the left/liberals used No Debate to shut down progressive GC voices. That's why KJK exists the way she does. There are conservative people with skin in this game. If we want to win, we have to empower progressives to use their voice, or the whole thing will be framed within conservative values, and that doesn't serve women or trans women.
Weka – Frank's usually supported here; what do you make of the points he's presenting?
"
By now, Kelly-Jay Keen-Minshull (aka, Posie Parker) has come and gone. Her mission – to amplify a particularly pernicious form of transphobia (under the cloak of “women’s rights”) – an abject failure. As a marketing exercise to peddle her wares, it went well.
A self-style "woman’s rights activist" Keen-Minshull/Parker has strident views, including rejecting trans women as women. She has been active throughout Britain, Scotland, Australia, and United States.
In February 2019, Keen-Minshull/Parker harassed Sarah McBride, Human Rights Campaign National Press Secretary, and trans woman, in the United States’ Capitol Building. The verbal abuse, including mis-gendering and making offensive slurs, was videographed and uploaded onto the internet."
https://frankmacskasy.substack.com/p/5-reasons-why-provocateur-parkers
In February 2019, Keen-Minshull/Parker harassed Sarah McBride, Human Rights Campaign National Press Secretary, and trans woman, in the United States’ Capitol Building. The verbal abuse, including mis-gendering and making offensive slurs, was videographed and uploaded onto the internet."
HRC is an organisation that should be able answer the questions put forward by KJK while actively lobbying for legislation on those issues;
This is a blogpost on the HRC -1st of 3:
https://www.the11thhourblog.com/post/all-aboard-the-human-rights-campaign-and-the-making-of-transgender-industry-leaders-part-i
A bit of background to your quoted item here:
https://twitter.com/WomensLibFront/status/1300574218908823552?s=20
Now, you don't have to believe or be convinced by such accounts, but you have been introduced to a different perspective.
People are able to have a view, whether it is supported by the facts or evidence is quite another thing.
I have found Frank Macskasy a bit reactionary over the last few years and so stopped reading him. Perhaps I'll start again.
I've found I cherish the progressives more and am willing to read from any side and some times time does not allow diving into Frank's views.
As people think more deeply about the issues on 25/3 we are getting more comment from NZ on the implications for free speech, women's rights. This seemed to be the preserve of writers from overseas in the immediate aftermath. They seemed to be seeing what was happening more clearly than our media did or more likely wanted to (seeing at they had worked themselves into a truly tiny corner)
https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/131660282/damien-grant-were-having-a-free-speech-moment-it-isnt-going-well
……
"The answer to Kim Hill’s question – why did Posie Parker require protection – is because Hill, Minister Wood, O’Brien, Lal and even Justice Gendall had all contributed to an environment where the use of violence was not only being legitimised, but had become a moral necessity.
We have graduated to a cultural landscape where commercial intimidation and even physical violence is permissible against people if their views are deemed unacceptable by the cultural, political and media leadership.
Those in positions of responsibility may wish to reflect on this, rather than stoking further escalation."
I don't always agree with Damien Grant but I do on this.
I am also concerned at the treating of the Ministership as some sort of private fiefdom where instead of getting measured comment on issues within the portfolio we get pronouncements or personal views driven along by the pronouncers being a Minister. (Granted the media seem unable to unlink the two and this does not help)
Marama Davidson seems to be one. You know I don't care about your breathless personal views about the trans community but I do care that you had neither the wit nor sense of reality to work out that any comment supporting or minimising the use of violence against people you disagree with was not appropriate.
You know being quite frank 'I couldn't give a big rats a***' what your personal views are Michael Wood and find them quite inappropriate and calling into question the decision making of the officials of the department you are the Minister of. I would have had much more respect had you stood behind the process and supported this.
I would paraphrase Abraham Lincoln – Quote – Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.
"Better to remain silent on issues out of your depth than to comment and to remove all doubt'.
An excellent resumé by Frank Macskasy. Thank you Robert.
I highlight the following excerpt:
"Context: This image was circulated throughout social media:
.![https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F68b3c2c1-de30-4a73-bc7a-40f7e18bdca9_591x395.png](https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1456,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F68b3c2c1-de30-4a73-bc7a-40f7e18bdca9_591x395.png)
It was presented by Keen-Minshull/Parker’s followers and various far-right individuals that the silver object beside her throat was a knife (or alternatively, scissors). It was supposedly "evidence" of thuggery by counter-protestors at Albert Park.
The object was a cellphone, held by one of her minders. The image had been cropped for maximum misrepresentation-effect.
Keen-Minshull/Parker was not brought to Australia by any feminisist organisation. Her presence was sponsored by the conservative, Trump-affiliated, Conservative Political Action Conference organisation."
Need I say more.
Anne, this slur about the scissors was comprehensively walked back some days ago……Molly & Weka had a discussion.
Perhaps you and Frank could elucidate.
The point I took from this picture was that it was so dangerous out there for KJM that her security first had to close guard, walking with someone with arms and shoulders linked around her, to actually having to lift her for speed so she was almost parallel to the ground.
It was a deliberate attempt to help promote the image of mass thuggery coming from the protesting crowd. The kind of tactic used by right wing extremists that the woman in question so obviously is aligned to, despite her howls of protest to the contrary. In fact the more she denies it, the more one knows its true.
@Anne
More details from whoever posted the original screen shot from the livestream, would be good to know. But unfortunately, I don't know who that was. The images were being deleted and/or corrected even as I was having a conversation with weka, only a few hours after the event.
Many were watching the livestream concerned that they were seeing a woman in extreme physical danger. The livestream shows a degree of the chaos and confustion, and it abruptly cut out for several minutes in the middle of it.
https://twitter.com/EdgeWatching/status/1639541306056929280?s=20
In that resulting distress, people were looking for answers and details, and I also thought this was information coming through. But as I said, people with saner heads at a time of confusion, almost immediately reined that interpretation in.
The social media accounts I followed, corrected and or deleted and did not circulate that image further. (Mind you, I don't have a Facebook or any other social media account, so I don't know if this is true on those platforms).
It never really got traction in the social media environment which I inhabit thanks to the integrity of commentators like weka.
Thanks to her timely and accurate reminder, I spent several hours posting corrections like this (along with others) on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/EdgeWatching/status/1639541306056929280?s=20
That interpretation disappeared quite quickly (within 24hrs) from GC discourse.
Do a couple of searches on Twitter “posie parker ” + “scissors” or “KJK” + “scissors” to see who continued to promulgate this story.
Thank you Molly. I wonder am I to go on for the rest of my life resisting people who use this and other unproven points about the so-called 'lovely, sun loving, fun loving protest, at Albert Park on 25/3.
Did the woman with the fractured skull run into someone's opened sunscreen lotion bottle or the keep cup with the decaf double shot hazelnut chai latte in it?
/Sarc
Well clearly the lovely Frank is one.
Why?
What would be his rationale for repeating something that has been debunked…..I couldn't possibly imagine. /sarc
That was just one example mentioned and I concede it was quickly discarded by mainstream media at the least. But I recommend this morning's media watch programme on the subject from non-partisan folk who were actually present at the scene:
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018883958/media-mismatch-on-an-out-of-control-mob
There was a lot of 'unreality' bandied about by the usual local suspects as well as the overseas media. It always amuses me how much more coverage the reporting of false data receives over the actual facts of a particular situation.
@Anne
Thanks for conceding the point regarding the image.
However, what point is it that you are trying to make with the RNZ link?
Is it that because some people did not witness it, the violence against women has been exaggerated?
I just want to note, that in the footage of the woman being beaten I can see my daughter and partner about 3m away, and they had no idea that it was taking place directly behind them.
The noise was painfully loud at within the rotunda area that the #LetWomenSpeak attendees were in, once those demonstrators broke through.
CPAC is a political group – it's What We Believe page is here:
https://www.conservative.org/what-we-believe/
Apart from the wholesale support of capitalism (expected) the rest is fairly straightforward.
I don't know the full details of the sponsorship deal – and to be honest I don't care that much. IIRC, Kellie-Jay Keen says that CPAC offered the sponsorship deal partly to give the #LetWomenSpeak events liability cover under their organisation. The cost of liability cover for #LetWomenSpeak events was/is prohibitively high. So the formal sponsorship, removes that expense.
(There is a video where this is related, but I'm not going to trawl through it all to find it, but will post if I come across or remember where to look).
"Many who have concerns have been unable to raise them in existing parties and find themselves politically homeless. Their political representatives seemed to be incapable of having a discussion."
Thought you were talking about the anti-vaxx crowd for a moment…
@Robert Guyton
.https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-01-04-2023/#comment-1943235
My request:
Your response:
.https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-01-04-2023/#comment-1943242
*Ask away"
and this as a complete response:
"Thought you were talking about the anti-vaxx crowd for a moment…"
I'll be noting such stalking from now on.
It'll be a numbers exercise, my impression of you is becoming increasingly fixed.
Macskasy's article, and the responses to Robert Guyton's comment on same, highlight the fact that, when it comes to 'Posie Parker', some opinions are poles apart.
Keen-Minshull has political aspirations. Time will tell whether she can reach the ‘heights’ of Pauline Hanson – based on PP’s recent encounters down under, imho she has a shot – exclusivity has popular appeal.
A new age of democratic extremes [4 November 2022]
"Keen-Minshull has political aspirations. Time will tell if she can reach the heights of Pauline Hanson – based on her recent time down under, she has a shot, imho – exclusion is the name of her 'game'."
Hmmm.. more reason to take a cautious, cynical view of the woman, imo.
Don't know about cynical, but I’ll not throw ‘PP caution’ to the wind.
Perhaps Robert meant sceptical, but I’m cynical about that 😉
I did mean "sceptical", Incognito.
I've been, and am presently being, distracted by a 4-man South Korea film crew that has been filming our every move over the past 3 days. I'm just managing to fit in quick glimpses of TS as they set up this scene and that scene, and so am finding it difficult to always choose the right worm.
It was a joke).
All good, Robert, although some here consider it not a laughing matter.
I assume the filming is not for a K-Pop documentary called Guyton Style.
Yes. That is a strategy that was outlined a while ago, and many GC's know of it.
Many who have concerns have been unable to raise them in existing parties and find themselves politically homeless. Their political representatives seemed to be incapable of having a discussion.
When the idea was first mooted in GC circles to create a party where protest votes could be given, it was treated as a passing fancy.
But the strategy of such a move became apparent.
The creation of a political party would increase the likelihood of the discussion occurring in the political sphere. There is also the added benefit of political engagement and speeches being adequately protected by the authorities. Thereby, avoiding such debacles similar to that we had in Auckland last week.
Elaine Miller, used a similar strategy when contesting a Scottish by-election last year.
https://theedinburghreporter.co.uk/2023/01/corstorphine-murrayfield-by-election-elaine-miller/
KJK AFAIK was a Labour party member. I don't know if she has long term ambition to be a politician, I do know that she (and her support team) are constantly looking to get a public conversation going by whatever legitimate means they can.
I think this might have some success in that objective.
If your knowledge is right, then when and why KJK left the party.
KJK occasionally mentions it on videos or interviews, but it is hard to search videos if you don't know the exact ones.
Here though is a 2018 article from the Spectator. Sorry, I can't quote anything, – I've moved from my phone to here to post the link, and I am out of free articles:
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/labour-s-refusal-to-accept-the-definition-of-a-woman/
IIRC, the "woman – adult human female "billboard was put up outside a Labour party conference, as women were unable to get Labour politicians to meet or acknowledge concerns raised by party members.
Thanks for that link to the 2018 article in The Spectator. Looks like KJK was a Labour party supporter, so probably a member too.
Roger Douglas and Richard Prebble left Labour; Ruth Richardson and Don Brash left the Nats. They found(ed) a new home – ACT.
Which of NZ's political parties might have policies that align best with KJK's intention to "campaign on the basis of repealing the Gender Recognition Act" and "erase the word 'gender'"?
"Keen-Minshull/Parker was not brought to Australia by any feminisist organisation. Her presence was sponsored by the conservative, Trump-affiliated, Conservative Political Action Conference organisation.""
If that is the case, you need say no more, imo.
Such information casts a shadow over the bright and breezy claim that the woman was "merely an advocate for women".
Has someone actually said
"merely an advocate for women".
Because women see no merely about it. She is an advocate for women.
In my view it is time that people started realising that women are quite grown up, we exercise our brains, we can reference, we can assimilate/discern across multiple often competing view, we can see through charlatans and having done all this – we can make up our own minds about the message. In short to use the vernacular 'We can walk and chew gum'.
I see no need to disregard a message because the person may have political aspirations or because she need funding to meet insurance levies or for whatever reason mainstream funding sources were not aviable to her.
Don't you think that the messages she has given about women's rights and women's issues are worth a look?
Trustworthy groups such as Speak Up for Women and Mana Korereo Wahine support the kaupapa of Let Women Speak which is what it is all about.
In the No Debate Self ID crock the voices of women and our concerns were silenced.
You know if a red giraffe wearing thigh waders came to NZ, sponsored by the Pink Panthers Association to moo (or whatever giraffes do) about women's issues I'd go and see it (with a translator of course).
Please focus on the issues that have been raised and let us know why the concerns of women should not be addressed.
Trust us too.
We have done the mahi, researched the issues and the people. You don't need to second guess or 'warn' us
Actually KJM's work has received a huge boost in NZ with people being able to see that there are groups determined to restrict free speech, to 'deserving' people only, and restrict it by the use of force if necessary.
A joke?
I’m sorry I am a women and I don’t have a sense of humour attuned to that kind of ‘joke’ Robert.
My jokes are clearer like
What is brown and goes at 100k through custard?
A prune with an outboard motor.
and
Knock knock
Who’s there
Arthur
Arthur who?
Are there any mince pies left?
My "joke" was concerning the word, "worm", Shanreagh.
Being "mis-taken" seems de rigueur with this issue.
If we can maintain a dignified semi-respect for each other for a while longer, we might (we, being those commenting here) make it through the testing-time.
yeah, I don't see how the Nazis are a support crew. As you say, they're trying to capture the women's rights issues and turn them into bigotry.
the problem with the word terf: terfisaslur.com/
"Attendant crew" more.
Moths to a flame.
Bats to a bleeding toe.
@Robert Guyton…….I cannot see the word worm in the post I am referring to. Is it in one of the links?
I also don't get the Mis-taken unless it is some poor take on miss. But then I am a woman and I've got no sense of humour. I am not away of a testing-time…this implies some sort of ending. I'm not sure this will end.
I can see how easily it would be for a party other than Labour or Greens to swoop in, put up a policy stating that BDM/safe spaces will be reviewed to see if it is fit for purpose for women, and a wave of women will go there, or at least have a close look..
If you want my honest opinion…the way will become clearer if you read, thought about, noted questions, asked them in a genuine manner and then reflected again on the answers. Then asked any queries.
Perhaps you might find it easier to read the rights based arguments that RW males have that enables them to see where we are coming from. RedLogix and TSmithfield have insights here, TS particularly with the chauvinism idea.
This one shot, 'smarty pants' way of interacting when we are trying to help you expand your knowledge is very off putting.
Many of us have had years, literally decades some of us in groups relating to women's issues, some of us have studied issues to stage 3 Uni levels at the time of the 1970s/80s wave, others since. Others of us have knowledge on human rights, civil rights, unions and are making the link through this. Others have lived the experience of the shifting sands of woman's issues through the fights to be able to live with our loved ones, marry/civil union them. I would venture to say there is not much that Women commentators on TS don't know about the issues.
We love to help those with a genuine interest.
"Eveyone I don't like is a Nazi" is a contender for most annoying feature of the 'progressive' left. It's appallingly disrespectful to victims of the Nazis, for a start.
Just as annoying is the political right's way of proclaiming that anyone from the left is a communist or Stalinist (Jacinda has been called such many a time) except that oddly enough it hardly raises an eyebrow anymore despite Stalin's appalling record on human rights.
Both the left and right have spawned monsters. But to be fair the legitimate, moderate right has fully, loudly and repeatedly repudiated the Nazis and fascism ever since the end of WW2. While not the same could be said for the broad left of it's catastrophic historic embrace of marxism. I still see plenty of minimising and weaseling on this and a persistent blindness to the modern forms it has morphed into.
Of course this does not mean there are not extremists on both sides who still embrace the old madness'. Mainly for the attention-seeking shock value I sometimes think.
When you boil all the rhetoric away, there is actually little difference between the extreme left and extreme right. They use the same methods to control people – violence and intimidation.
Wait until you see this one, it is hilarious.
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1642045592158507009
Frankly they can have woman. I’ve always thought it was a slightly offensive word as if we are something just tacked onto the side of men, literally wife man. About as offensive as woman being created from Adam’s rib. I am in favour of women now othering themselves as femme or femina.
100% Psycho Milt.
The word is being used so often that it becomes meaningless as a slur.
Those who throw it about should do some reading / watching / listening to the vast amount of documentation available about The Holocaust Then hopefully they may start to understand what sort of person a real Nazi actually is, rather than just someone who disagrees with them.
It's a common tactic the "no debate" types use to shut down any discussion. (You're a nazi so I don't need to debate with you)
It's the same with words like facist, racist, transphobic, etc.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/7-sorority-sisters-university-wyoming-sue-kappa-kappa-gamma-challenge-rcna77266
Women in a sorority object to transwoman with visible erect penis in their single sex spaces
It's a girl dick though right?
After an eye-roll at the headline: "…to challenge induction of transgender member", the rest of the article is an interesting read, of the special treatment given to that member in terms of criteria and induction.
The failure of many to understand how in such cases, single-sex provisions for women allow them to just get on with their day, with objectification is astounding.
The article points out clearly some of the impacts.
“The complaint said that witnesses observed Smith sitting in a chair in the living room of the sorority house on multiple occasions staring at members walking in.
“Smith has, while watching members enter the sorority house, had an erection visible” through leggings, the complaint said.
The morning after a sleepover, prior to the Kappa initiation ceremony for new members, Smith’s conduct was described as “inappropriate and threatening,” according to the complaint.
Though Smith did not sleepover, Smith returned to the sorority house the following morning and “stood silently in the corner of the room near the door while other pledges changed from sleeping garments into other clothing,” the lawsuit said.
Smith allegedly saw a woman not wearing a bra change shirts. After that incident, “other Kappa members informed Ms. Doe VI that while watching her” Smith had “become sexually aroused,” the complaint said, and Smith allegedly “repeatedly asked” Doe VI about her romantic attachments after the encounter. “
Reposted link:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/7-sorority-sisters-university-wyoming-sue-kappa-kappa-gamma-challenge-rcna77266
Thanks Molly .I no longer have the facility to copy and paste (frozen touch pad syndrome)
I sympathise.
(I'm using an ancient laptop with keyboard and trackpad issues, so I resort to an onscreen keyboard, or a phone which either has issues with what I'm asking it to do, or that emphasises my fat finger syndrome to the detriment of efficient posting.)
That’s really taking the piss. I’d be surprised if anyone would support this type of behaviour. Even a teenage boy would know that he’s been a bit dodgy.
Bad or inappropriate behaviour like what is described in the article is not acceptable, and it doesn’t matter who’s doing it.
anyone condoning or justifying it should be called out.
Just not acceptable. Ever.
Exactly. So much of this debate swirls around various arcane ideological rabbit holes, when I just see bad behaviour from weak, immature people with no internal boundaries.
Yea but in instances like this one the bad behaviour is enabled by whichever beauracrats decide that allowing a man to join a sorority is ok. (In fact anyone or any organisation that panders to this nonsense)
The young women involved should never have been put in the position of having to deal with this bad behavior in the first place
it's a feature not a bug.
The large majority of men – men who work for a living, support and provide for their families, act as a good parent, and will sacrifice themselves to protect their family, community and nation – think of this simmering alphabet soup of sex and gender variation as a bit of an aberration; to be tolerated but scarcely embraced.
I have three close family members, each with a relatively rare genetic condition that has had a dramatic impact on their lives. (I may have referenced some of this in the years past, I am not going to detail any here.) The fact of these conditions is something that takes nothing away from their human rights, and expectation that others will treat them with the ordinary courtesy and dignity afforded anyone. Nor does it subtract one jot from my expectation that their disability will be an excuse for bad behaviour. And of course as family they are loved.
But frankly their disability has been a monstrous pain in the arse, changing the course of not just their lives, but all around them. It has massively curtailed their potential to function, achieve and contribute – to be the people they could have been. If any sane person had the a choice in the matter, they would not ask for these disabilities. They are not desirable permutations of the human condition.
Looping then back to the sex/gender issue this comment is about. Where there is a reasonable case for a genetic pre-disposition, or indeed some environmental hormonal disruption that skews the usual path of gender expression – then like most people I am willing to be compassionate and accepting to the extent reasonable on the matter. To repeat this does not diminish their rights as a human being, nor the usual social obligation to treat them with courtesy and respect. You have been very clear on this all the way through and we agree on this.
Just do not try and tell me however these conditions are 'normal', or should be promoted as such. These transgender activists seem to be calling for a free – state-funded – ‘revolutionary genital tourism’ whereby you can, with chemicals or surgery or both, shift at will from being a ‘man’ or a ‘woman’ or surgically/chemically ‘non-binary.' And underlying this it is not hard to discern a deeper agenda to discount the heteronormative family as an 'oppressive patriarchal capitalist' construct that might be swept away in a politicised, subversive firestorm of social disintegration. Political revolution from the inside out, disguised as personal freedom.
The 'progression' of this dark agenda is now fairly plain to see, first getting everyone to accept that gender expression is fluid, now dismantling biological sex, after this I anticipate will come the idea that age itself is a mere social construct.
To be clear, the gender/sexual politics of all this does not interest me much. Rather it is the undeniable erosion of stable family formation and structure across much of the world, and the accompanying social and economic dysfunction that always flows from this, is I believe is larger picture most people are either not seeing, or do not feel safe to speak to.
That is a strategy acknowledged by many women, across the political spectrum. However, it sometimes appears to be more clearly recognised and emphatically stated by those with "conservative" politics and viewpoints.
Some seem to have an internal censor that inhibits open acknowledgement. Whether it is tribal, related to acceptable "progressivism" or just wanting not wanting to be seen aligning with conservatives on any issue – I don't know.
I wrote an article here some time back that touches on this.
.https://thestandard.org.nz/trifold-politics-and-boundaries/
This idea of boundaries should be intuitively familiar to most women; most will have had a bad encounter at some point in their lives with someone who lacks them. And all too often it was an immature, weak male who lacking the ability to control his innate capacity for aggression (both active and passive).
On this point, I would argue that much of the debate around violence misses the point that men are innately more physically dangerous than women. Evolutionary sexual selection ensured we would be this way. On average the difference is not very large, we are a dimorphic species, but not excessively so. But at the extremes almost all of the worst offenders will be male; this being an inevitable outcome of how normal distributions work.
But in my view the idea this is biological reality is a social construct, an 'oppressive, misogynistic patriarchy' is not only rather uninteresting, it simply leads us nowhere useful. Thus decades of talking about the scourge of IPV and no change in the outcome.
The correct solution to violence is not to demand men should be weak and harmless, but they are socialised to control their innate aggression and direct it constructively. The role of childhood rough play, adolescent initiation into manhood, male bonding in challenging situations into effective, disciplined teams are all traditional facilitations of this.
But you are of course correct, none of this acceptable left wing discourse.
Thank you Redlogix.
I have thought long and hard about our institutions such as religion and the patriarchy, including the notion of the nuclear family.
My conclusion is that generally they may be a force for good for many.
But not all especially not all women, I know though that there are many men who have welcomed the results of the fight that women have had on access to maternity leave as it has enable them to participate more in their children's little lives.
In the religion I grew up in women are able to participate to the fullest in ministering.
My ongoing view is that though we may consent to be governed, this is not for all time and we must watch like hawks to make sure the two institutions work for all women.
Unlike other types of activism, referenced by Stuart Munro women's activism is never done.
Stuart Munro13
31 March 2023 at 7:12 pm
I have noted before being shocked after a period out of the public service at the lack of simple knowledge of institutional racism or sexism held by one CE I came across. Held by him and thus promulgated across his managers. This was 2005.
Yes – all good points. In writing the comment above I was aware of two matters I should clarify.
One is that in drawing an analogy between a genetic condition that is physical in nature, and one that expresses itself primarily in a social context – are not the equivalent things in every respect, but the moral argument is broadly similar enough to convey the point I wanted to make.
And yes there is no reason to demand everyone fits within the traditional structures. Growing up in my rather small extended family I had an older aunt who lived in a same sex relationship all her life. This long before it became fashionable as such. As far as we were concerned it was just who she was and there was never any negative comment or disrespect about it. But it was a private matter, and not something she imposed on others.
While I am sure she would have encountered the usual run of bigots and nosey parkers, as far as I am aware she never allowed this to hold her back from living a full and good life, both socially and professionally. And she had a rather marvelous collection of fast cars and motorbikes.![cheeky cheeky](https://cdn2.thestandard.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/ark-wysiwyg-comment-editor/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/tongue_smile.png?x42494)
Flippin' heck I just took a really long time to write a post (Which, on my phone is much more of a chore than anyone might think) explaining my point
Wish I had the sharps to have just nailed it like that instead Weka!![laugh laugh](https://cdn2.thestandard.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/ark-wysiwyg-comment-editor/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/teeth_smile.png?x42494)
haha, usually it's me writing a novel and someone else coming along and saying it more succinctly in a sentence.
Newsroom has a new regular post called "Raw Politics."
I listened to most of it but think it is a "lets explore every little dark place in which to amplify the terrible management of the Government." Spiteful I reckon especially from Tim Murphy.
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/pro/the-raw-of-the-crowd?utm_source=Newsroom&utm_campaign=ababd46e25-Week+In+Review+28.03.2023&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_71de5c4b35-ababd46e25-95522477
Watched it ianmac but probably too early to judge. What with the PP debacle and the Stuart Nash sacking, it was largely about Hipkins and his handling of both situations. I thought he handled them as well as could be expected in the circumstances.
I did think it was a bit underhand to claim this govt. was bumbling on (my words) without demonstrating any vision for the future ("bread and butter issues don't cut it" Murphy said) when we have the budget coming up in a matter of weeks where all will be revealed.
First person account of the police involvement in the lead up to the #LetWomenSpeak event, and their actions on the day.
Worth the listen:
https://youtu.be/TJ9FqiNcV80
If you can endure your way through Plunket's constant, annoying interruptions, this is a gobsmacking interview. It leaves only two possible explanations for the Police failure to maintain public order and protect the mob's victims:
1. The liaison with the women organising the event was genuine, but the officers involved received instructions from their superiors to stand down and leave the women to face the mob alone.
2. The liaison was duplicitous from the start and the officers involved never had any intention of doing what they were agreeing to.
Option 2 may sound far-fetched, but don't underestimate the misogyny infesting the police force. Here's a reminder of how some of them see women:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/the-case-ruined-my-life-says-rickards-accuser/TDKSJMQY5S7U5KLVGPIZZFHD2A/
Linda speaks well throughout the interview despite – as you mention – Plunket's unnecessary interruptions.
(I did enjoy the rebuke at the beginning when Plunket corrected her "rotund" error. A couple of pointed digs around that later for emphasis from a woman that has just had enough).
The personal experience shared sounds credible, even if it does put the police actions and inactions in a very poor light. It does raise real questions about political influence as well.
It also gives voice to the very real threat that women experienced that has been routinely ignored or downplayed by some commentators, media and politicians.
Police not doing the job we think they should be doing's a theme.
Parliament occupation, Brian tamaki's many antics and P houses left untouched whilst the next street over gets chopper, patrol cars etc to sieze a few plants.
Nationals police force….they get in costers goneburger.
The critical point that many have missed – is that once PP and the women attending the event were thoroughly intimidated, and in some cases assaulted, the Police immediately swung into action, bundling PP to safety in a waiting car, then into protective custody first at the Police station, then at the airport and even escorting her onto the plane.
PP herself has had nothing but good things to say about these officers who did look after her after the crisis. Nor is there any reason to think the handful of officers inside Albert Park who were plainly either under-resourced or under instructions to stand down, can be reasonably accused of misogyny.
Nah – like many people here I strongly suspect this was a political act. All the dots are sitting there waiting to be joined up – and it will only take one disgruntled person to do it. Who knows, maybe a certain ex-Minister of Police.
From other accounts from women present, it was security that directed KJK to the stationary police, and perhaps even into the car. The police then had to act, and standard responses kicked in.
The police – despite requests – also did not go to the rotunda to assist the remaining women AFAIK.
If anyone has evidence or accounts that contradict this, I'd appreciate it being posted.
People made 111 calls to the police from the rotunda, afaik these were ignored.
The police had more than enough time to get more bodies on site to manage what was happening. The question is why they didn't.
Plunket had an interview with PP yesterday that covered the events off from her perspective in some detail. I was merely going on that account.
I agree it was probably the people providing her security – and they deserve a good deal more plaudits for their courage than has been credited to them so far – that got her away from the rotunda down to the street.
It is my interpretation that the Police on the ground, once they realised just how out of hand things had gotten, finally had to ignore instructions and do the right thing.
Well worth the read.
Perceptions of Censorship and Moderation Bias in Political Debate Forums.
https://ojs.aaai.org/index.php/ICWSM/article/view/15002/14852
So as to make/keep a debate going what are your conclusions?
Do they apply to any fora you post in?
I suggest you read the FAQ.
Suggesting how the site should be run or complaining about moderation is a sure way to cop a self martyr ban.
But the conclusions in the report does contain the following…
“We found that users holding minority views are more likely to be moderated,even after accounting for levels of potentially offensive behaviors across groups”
Yes I did read that.
I also read the suggestion, that I disagree with, that the rules be excruciatingly specific. The theory of specificism is law or similar is well known. For instance many believe in the fair, large and liberal approach where an incomplete and general list is put up. This tends include rather than exclude ideas, words that are similar to those instanced .
The other approach is that the words are included are all that are covered.
I see the benefit in phrases such as say 'apply commonsense' (fair, large & liberal)
rather than an exhaustive list of words trying to convey this.
The trouble with the exhaustive list approach is that if we leave off an example people may argue that this is not covered by 'commonsense' and so is not covered by the moderation.
I look on moderation as a way to get the best out of us and our arguments thus making them clearer and more persuasive to a greater audience. I don't see it is censorship. Not do I think it is designed to please the majority. We can all slip up and not link or link competently (my common mod)
I can recall several posters espousing uncommon views, who put them up and had a number of posters against them. They put them up again, same thing occurs perhaps several times.
The next post is full of ad homs against other posters, Mods, others with different views. They are moderated. They perhaps put up their immoderate views as they were tired of posters being 'agin their views.
I sometimes think that those holding minority views on site are often those whose views on another site or out in town square NZ are in fact majority views. So they are coming to a site they know does not espouse their views per se (and we have a number of wonderful posters on here who do that).
Anyway, a very interesting read.
I am a great supporter of moderation as I believe it helps us add to the sum of knowledge. It is not designed to make us all support vanilla views, but to draw out the hokey pokeys and boysenberries of this world…..a drawn out metaphor.
As I said, it's well worth the read, and hopefully some comfort to our missing friends.
Yes. There are quite a few who have bailed from this site. I don't blame them. There seems to be a bit of a pack mentality currently developing. You know… 'you gotta completely agree with us cos if you don't we're gonna run you out of town' kind of attitude. Not all commenters (or authors) are guilty of this of course.
Hopefully TS can soon revert to its former environment where people were able to argue the pros and cons (because they always exist) about an issue with reasonable safety – and not a little humour when it was appropriate.
Hopefully knowing they're mostly in good company is a small comfort, Anne.
Adrian gets a bollocking, and so have I over time from LPRENT for supporting Jeremy Corbyn, Bernie Sanders, and Mike Smith. “fool” is how I have been characterised, so I generally self censor to be able to keep posting here.
Which is strange in a way because a look at the archive over a decade or more shows how supportive I have been of Mr Prent for keeping the site going and tackling the likes of SlaterOil in court proceedings.
But hey, no one is perfect and the ultimate counter for whinging posters I guess is obvious–“pay for your own server and site and say what you like!”
I get the feeling that you hadn’t read the article that The Al1en had linked to @ 9.
Your perception of the alleged ‘bollockings’ is a misrepresentation and mischaracterisation stemming from your bias of censorship and moderation on TS and how things work here.
‘Bollocking’, moderating, or banning here is generally not because of viewpoints but of how well or rather how badly one argues for them. Poor arguments can raise the ire of those who don’t suffer fools.
I hope this clears up some of your misunderstandings.
Your quote was so selective it was self-serving. Here’s the full quote with the relevant missing part in my italics:
You referred to this site’s FAQ but, of course, it is in the Policy (https://thestandard.org.nz/policy/).
It is quite evident from your comments in this thread that you were trying to be subtle, as not to fall into the self-martyrdom hole, and that your intention was to take a swipe at moderation here on TS. You can’t have it your way; say what you mean and mean what you say or you say nothing at all.
Your ‘missing friends’ have had their commenting privileges revoked because of their own actions and not because of poor and unfair moderation. Acknowledging my own biases, I think your insinuations (!) are inaccurate and unfair. I do acknowledge that on some ‘hot topics’ moderation can become more biased and heavy-handed than strictly necessary. Mods are not perfect and the ones that don’t have anything left in the tank take a break, tend to leave on their own accord, or have their Moderation rights revoked.
I hope this helps. When you feel the need to criticise Mods and/or Authors please don’t try to be too subtle and clever for your own good![angel angel](https://cdn2.thestandard.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/ark-wysiwyg-comment-editor/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/angel_smile.png?x42494)
I'm usually brick subtle but obviously not on here, but as for selective, even if your point is true and the level is much smaller than represented, you'd agree it's still there.
It was and is not my point, it is the finding and conclusion of one study of one online group (community), i.e., of Ravelry’s BID. My guess is that it is always present to some degree because it is inevitable when dealing with humans and human [online] interactions. If you were to ask if it is present here and does it present a problem I’d say “No”, but with the qualifiers that I’ve already mentioned in my previous comment. And no, I would not say this because I’m one of the Mods. I’d say it because I comment and occasionally author here, i.e., if it were a problem [for me], and more akin some other NZ political blog sites, I’d leave immediately and stop spending hours of my time on here. TS is the best of the bunch – spoken with real and genuine bias.
Ok
Interesting read, thanks. However, I wouldn’t read too much into it, e.g., extrapolate some of the ‘findings’ and ‘solutions’ to other political blog sites such as TS. Much of it was highly familiar to me, although it seems that none of the authors had any experience as a Mod, but perhaps that was a good thing because it might have induced bias in the study.
The issue that was not addressed is that of bias within the community/commentariat and the six tags attached to comments (that’s what we call them here on TS, as Posts are submitted by people with TS/WordPress Author status). Many a ban occurs because of and after a heated exchange with other commenters here […] and not all come from or start with a stand-alone comment, i.e., more or less entirely self-inflicted by the offender.
You're welcome, and while your here, I think you, personally, do a fairly decent and mostly dispassionate job here.
Appreciated, ta.
It’s tough to act objectively & impartially (neutrally) given my own biases, likes, and dislikes. I do my best.
The comment about the high workload of Mods struck a chord – TS receives more comments a month than the Big Issues Debate (BID) group on Ravelry in that study. Of course, not all comments are equal, but it gives you a bit of an idea of how much the two main Mods here on TS wade through!
If I have time, I will respond to a few other of your comments in this thread, because they leave a few things to the imagination and raise some questions …
To be honest I hope you don't because I don't really feel safe to post freely.
fwiw, I don't feel safe to post freely either.
There are some commenters who don't believe this, but the things people get banned for here are pretty simple and most of them come down to people ignoring moderation and wasting moderator time (I cannot emphasis the latter enough).
I will note an exception however. The last time you were banned, for 6 months, was for calling a woman commenter, who you were politically disagreeing with, "a nasty old cunt". In my time moderating here, that would be at the worst end of the scale for misogyny directed at women. Fortunately its rare and the reason it is rare is because we moderate before it gets to that point, and we curate a culture where its unacceptable.
We have this rule for good reasons,
.https://thestandard.org.nz/policy/
It takes work to create an environment where a range of people want to comment. I've just asked someone to not call a prominent intersex trans person 'it', because it is dehumanising. That kind of language will also put people off from being here. The commenter did a simple acknowledgement, no drama.
All of which is to say that by far and away the easiest way to not get moderated is to not be an arsehole to the moderators. Imo this largely comes down to intent.
In the years I was commenting before becoming an author, I often talked to moderators about their decisions and I don't think I've ever been modded for that. It's entirely possible to talk about moderation here without crossing that line. This is why I see relatively easily when people are saying they don't care about TS moderation (and hence the site). I no longer see any point in spending time trying to sort that out. In election year we are just handing out long bans after the first few times, to curate a better debate for the election and to save ourselves the aggro and time.
Why? What are the things you’re worried about writing that will get you banned? I know I have plenty, though I do remember you frequently getting tied in knots before you became a moderator, which I noticed hasn’t happened since.
it's not safe for me to talk about my safety concerns 🤷♀️
My main point was that it's possible to have robust debate here within the moderation boundaries, and it's not a free for all for anyone.
what I'm trying to say is that, calling women cunts aside, people here don't get generally banned for what they say, they get banned for behaviour, often patterns of behaviour. This is good, because it means it's possible to avoid being banned even if one has controversial views.
Weka I'm constantly amazed at how fair you are, how incredibly articulate, and how at pains you are to filter your own biases.You make this site far more civil than it would be without you, and for that my admiration has no bounds.You may get triggered at times, but you never lash out
🙏
Me too Weka.
The words that were used including c**t are unacceptable to me & I am glad they were moderated. Why do we think that people want to see it written. Sounds like a male only worksite of old.
Shouldn't we pride ourselves on making our arguments/discussions without this sort of stuff.
signed
Mother of ten
Auckland
PS I note though several people on my twitter feed have had other Twitterers having to remove the words as inevitably they use them about others and fall foul of the twitter standards
Teacher's pet!![laugh laugh](https://cdn2.thestandard.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/ark-wysiwyg-comment-editor/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/teeth_smile.png?x42494)
''If you can endure your way through Plunket's constant, annoying interruptions, this is a gobsmacking interview.''
Cheap shot mainly because Plunket isn't ''Left Media.'' In fact it was the interviewee who was tortuous to listen to, but well worth the effort because, as you say, it was a gobsmacking interview.
My guess is it's probably some configuration of your No1 explanation. Andrew Costa may have been mulling over the issue, and because of his wokeness, worried about a backlash against the police protecting so called Nazis. Another angle is the Rainbow Community is still not 100% comfortable with the police as an organisation.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/376950/pride-and-police-the-history-issues-and-decisions-behind-the-debate
Plenty of history in the UK of Police doing the enforcement work for gender ideology. Chap called Harry Miller in his "Fair Cop" blog does a good job of exposing it.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-59727118
Coster, not Costa.
I fully accept my characterisation of Plunket's interviewing was a personal opinion! I'm torn between being grateful he's providing a platform for these women to be heard and personally annoyed at his interviewing style.
Agree that some variant of option 1 is most likely. Either one is bad, though – can't see any way to put a good spin for the police on what happened.
Strange as it may seem, I agree Plunket can interrupt too much. I think he gets impatient, especially with those with a more ponderous style of talking. Plus you will notice he can't sit still. When I get annoyed I just think '' well, it could have been Duncan Garner at the microphone.
Just returned from the Kimbolton Sculpture Festival. Great morning, wide range of art, stall holders and food.
A couple of observations from snatched excerpts of korero and artists written descriptions of their work. A parade of Mustangs idled their way through the crowd to go on display. More than a couple of comments about how much 'The Greenies' would hate that and 'to enjoy them before they are banned too'. One exhibit was of a heading dog and a cow and calf and a bull. All made out of old pushbike parts and old stuff ftom a shed. The artist reckoned Jacinda and the Greens want to get rid of the cows and this was a reminder of their presence.
Following the fallout of the Shame @ Albert Park, I was thinking these sorts of rural events is perhaps a better environment for a LWS forum/event/tent. Lower key (but still able to be live streamed), organised and run by locals and anyone wishing to silence the speakers would have to pay $15 to do so.
You couldn’t repeatedly punch a senior citizen and get away with it in that community.
lol, so true.
It's a good idea doing LWS away from the main centres.
Kimbolton being a bastion of inclusiveness and all that.
/
https://twitter.com/RawiriTaonui/status/1613117332792152065
The two groups met on Monday night to discuss things and it had been agreed that Ngāti Kauwhata would take part in the event.
But now organiser Tony Waugh said the day had been postponed to a yet-to-be-confirmed date because of uncertainty and the potential for disruption and conflict.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/300793858/settlers-day-event-postponed-due-to-uncertainty-and-potential-for-conflict
That's right, they elected Michael Laws as mayor… no hang on, that was somewhere else.
Indeed, a terrible mistake. But fucked off, twice, and disowned when the community realised the error of it's ways.
"…a terrible mistake."
He was elected mayor twice, then post mayor, y'all had him back as a coucillor and on the Health Board.
Some here might be interested in this:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/wellbeing/300843919/tiktok-is-addictive-for-many-girls-especially-those-with-depression
Stuff and other MSM have this frustrating habit of not properly referencing let alone linking to the primary source data:
https://www.commonsensemedia.org/research/teens-and-mental-health-how-girls-really-feel-about-social-media
Are the reporters afraid that we will check their articles or put them out of a job?
For some reason, the second part of my comment triggered Wordfence!?
I was thinking about some of RedLogix's posts above.
Something I was pondering is why women supporting PP have received largely positive support from right-wing males, and also left wing to be fair. But not so much the extreme woke-leaning males.
I was wondering if it was due to a degree of chauvinism more likely to be still lingering in us right-wingers. In a positive way though. To the extent that we value women in our lives, and recognise that women tend to be physically weaker than males, and therefore more vulnerable in a physical sense. So, seeing women abused or physically threatened tends to activate the evolutionary protective instincts in males.
On the other hand, many woke males may have had this type instinct replaced with a desire to be protective towards other groups they see as minority, and therefore needing protection, and now just lump biological women in with the majority oppression group.
Perhaps because it gives left leaning men the excuse to be as misogynist as they like under the guise of dumping on the "wrong kind of women".
Well done for a remarkably even-handed analysis; and while it obvious which camp I am located in, I believe you have done justice to the legitimate motives of those in the pro-trans camp as well.
What intrigues me is much less all the minutiae of the public debate around sexual politics, but the broader question around stable families, demographics and how this plays out in terms of social and economic dysfunction. As a psychologist you are surely familiar with the literature that clear confirms that children who grow up in intact, functioning families – ideally with an extended family available – will on average do better in life by almost every measure. Is this not what a legitimate left would want for the people we are supposedly standing up for?
For example, and as we have discussed elsewhere on a recent thread on education, there is a limit to what schools can do, if a positive home environment is lacking.
Of course. The only reason for using the phrase "right wing" was that there was a lot of support for women coming from the likes of kiwiblog. But also, I recognise there are many such as yourself here as well who are on the same wave length.
Not an area I studied in deeply, my study being more along the lines of organisational psychology. But what you are saying seems at least intuitively correct.
But, yes, I think children need stability in their relationships. And, ideally, young boys especially, need to have some positive male role models in their lives in some way or another. Unfortunately, young males often grow up in relationships where their experience of older males is anger and violence. And, it is better for them to be out of those relationships altogether.
Many solo mothers I know intuitively believe their sons need positive male role models, and try to get their sons aligned with positive male role models in one way or another.
The literature suggests male/female differences are in actuality very small. But there are still differences. Not in the way of superiority or anything condescending like that. But more in the way of slight differences due to evolution. So, I think there is value in young men growing up with positive male role models, whether that be through a sporting situation, or club or whatever.
And, I wonder if this is part of the reason why we have more gender confusion now. Because, young men often haven't had that male influence in their lives, and so are confused about what their true identity is. So far as males wanting to transition to female, anyway.
That is not to say I am blaming women for this state of affairs. More, that I am blaming men for often being such bad role models that women feel they have no option but to remove their children from their influence.
There is no doubting this. Yet professionally you must know that just blaming or hectoring a client to 'be a better person' is rarely an effective clinical tool. The key is to elicit a fresh insight and internal motivation to change. And in this respect much of the usual public discourse yelling at men about how bad they are has probably been remarkably counter-productive.
As a bit of tangent here, in I would point to the large number of WW1 and WW2 Returned Servicemen, many damaged and traumatised by their experiences as a bit of a social tipping point here. These were the first big wars in our society where there was a large civilian contingent of soldiers (as contrasted to the generally professional cadres who traditionally fought wars in the pre-Industrial era) who returned from overseas to families and communities largely uncomprehending what they had gone through.
And often with little support but their mates at the RSA and booze. The consequences for their families was often tragic one way or another.
Then of course we had the 1970's sexual revolution and freely available contraception, that effectively de-coupled sex from reproduction, and diminished the necessity to maintain stable families. Which in turn has spawned generations of fatherlessness.
I recall a story my partner told me years ago, and it may well be apocryphal but it rings true enough. A prison chaplain had the idea to hand out to inmates Mother's Day cards, that were very well received. It was evidently a good idea and counted a success. However when he attempted to repeat the same idea with Fathers Day cards – it fell very flat indeed. There were almost no takers.
Or another story from my own experience. When I started in Cubs (this would be the early 60's and progressing through to Scouts I can clearly recall the heavy involvement of whole families. Summer camps especially saw the enthusiastic and valuable contribution from fathers – in all sorts of ways that in hindsight was quite remarkable. We used to do semi-annual suburb wide bottle drives that took whole weekends of hard work, but were an immense amount of fun because everyone pitched in.
But by the time I progressed into more senior levels in the 70's it suddenly changed. We became a baby sitting service for single mothers and the entire tone shifted. I admire those who persisted with it through this period, but in the end it was not sustainable.
And the Peter Ellis case had a major impact on male teachers entering the teaching profession I think. Basically, males wanting to enter teaching felt like they would be under suspicion of being pedophiles. I think since then, the number of male teachers plummeted.
And, some of the modern marketing which seems deliberately aimed at causing gender confusion in children. For instance, my wife's sister purchased a toy pram for her grand daughter. And, the picture on the front had a boy pushing the pram.
Sure, traditional gender roles are very archaic these days. So, not trying to argue for those. But, this sort of messaging to young children just encourages boys to question their gender I think.
It would be interesting to know how much of the desire for young boys especially to change their gender is due to actual genetic or biological factors and how much is due to modern socialisation. If there is a large amount due to modern socialisation, then we are doing our boys a huge dis-service.
It is my impression that this 'confusion' manifests itself to varying degrees much more than we think. I think if someone really tried to study this – and I have no idea exactly how – they would find this an almost universal experience in adolescents of both sexes. (In this I have a fair bit of time for Jung's ideas around anima and animus archetypes.)
But like everything else about adolescence this confusion is transitory. In my view encouraging children to engage in chemical or physical mutilation at this highly vulnerable, suggestible phase of their life is no more defensible than allowing older sexual predators to groom and exploit them sexually.
As for autogynophelia – that has an almost entirely mid-life onset in males. I hesitate to comment – beyond saying this is probably an entirely separate phenomenon that should not be conflated with the adolescent puberty process.
I had forgotten about the Peter Ellis case – I agree it was remarkably damaging to teaching in NZ; but parallel events were happening in many places in the world, meaning that teaching became a completely female dominated profession. Even the handful of men left had to modify their approach in order to survive.
And as far as I am concerned this has been a catastrophe for a significant cohort of young boys as they pass through our education system. The most obvious symptom is the now complete dominance of females at the tertiary level. I don't have any NZ stats to hand, but in the US there is now a 2:1 ratio of female to male graduates – way more when you filter out the STEM subjects. All the indicators suggest young men are piling out of universities and either heading toward technical trades or small business. Or playing video games in their mother's basement.
A big consequence of this being the rise of the so-called, and much despised, 'incel' movement – a whole cohort of young men who have realised they have almost zero chance of every finding a mate and forming a family. Again we can yell at them as much as we like about how terrible they are – this merely confirms for them the correctness of their world view.
Or even if we step back from this noisy group and just consider the wider statistic that – again in the US – we are seeing a dramatic rise in the number of young men who are not in any kind of sexual relationship even by the age of 30. Not even casually much less formally. And while there is a similar rise for young women it is much smaller.
And this is before I start mentioning the massive impact of dating apps that enforce a brutal Pareto principle on males – with the top handful of 'high value' males guaranteed of unlimited attention, a modest 15% or so who stand a chance – and the bottom 80% virtually ignored. In essence we are heading back toward a mating structure that looks a lot like serial polygamy than anything else.
On the female side this same dynamic manifests as a dramatic rise in involuntary childlessness. The stats are brutal, if a woman has not has had their first child by the age of 30, it is 50:50 she never will. By 40yrs the odds are much worse.
Much of the drop in average fertility rates across the world are not so much attributable to smaller family sizes as we like to think. It appears that once a woman has their first child, they will go on to have pretty much the same number of children on average as did their mothers and grandmother's generation. It is the huge rise of women who never have children who are the big factor here – and while we know this suits some women well enough – for the large majority it becomes a matter of great sadness in later life, not to mention the dire demographic implications for the fate of whole communities and nations.
This only touches of a few points off the top of my head right now – my overall point is that family structures everywhere are under enormous pressure from many different directions – and not a lot of people on the left are open to talking about this.
Fascinating discussion. I am finished for the night now, but something we should continue with on another day.
Observationally, this isn't true among the cohort of professional women I know. Having a single child is achievable without completely sacrificing your career – it's exponentially harder with each subsequent child.
Tied with the fact that professional women are more likely to have their first child when their career is established (so mid 30s or later) – when fertility levels are already dropping.
Every single one of these single-child women in my friendship/acquaintance group comes from a family of at least 2 siblings.
Also, observationally, my teen's class would have at least 40% of the kids from single-child families. Growing up, that was really rare – I can only remember possibly 2 or 3 kids in my class who were singletons (much envied by the rest of us, as they didn't have to share their stuff with siblings)
In NZ, we are 'lucky' that this is balanced by the number of blue and/or white collar workers, who choose to have a higher number of children – at a younger age. Our different cultural mix is a factor here, too (Pasifika and Maori women are more likely to have multiple children – cf Marama Davidson).
Other countries (Germany and Japan, for example) are considerably more severely affected by this demographic change. And, China is already in demographic free-fall following their one-child policy of the 20th century.
I appreciate this assertion around family size is counter intuitive. I gleaned this data from recent work by author and researcher Stephen J Shaw who was just as surprised as anyone else to uncover the real data once you drilled in beneath the aggregate numbers everyone else was looking at.
https://www.invertedworld.com/p/birthgap-childless-world-part-1
Otherwise yes your point around professional women having more than one child is taken.
I think that women (if they are prepared to go the solo-mum route), do have quite a few options.
Certainly the fertility clinics report increasing numbers of single women, choosing that route, because they are not in a stable relationship – and don't forsee one happening.
Also, it's relatively easy for women to source 'donations' from male friends (indeed several lesbian couples I know, have done this, (often from gay friends) rather than going down the official route).
I think that much of the involuntary childlessness is women leaving it 'too late'. Many are still not aware of how radically fertility can drop from late-20s onwards; and several I know had early onset menopause in their 30s.
We (as a society) still haven't come to terms with the fact that, biologically, the best time for women to have children is 18-28; but socially this is the most career-damaging time for women to take time out of the workforce.
And, having said all that. I also know several women who have chosen not to have children, and are perfectly happy with that choice. Some of them are devoted aunts and fairy godmothers (but happy to return them at the end of the day); others just aren't really interested in kids at all.
Yup to all of those points.
The data Shaw came up with however is that while there are of course some women who happily choose not to have children, it turns out they are a minority. What he found is that around 80% of childless women in later life wound up thus involuntarily – and to varying degrees found this the cause of grief and sadness.
To be clear, no-one is suggesting for one moment that women should in any manner be compelled to have children they do not want. I am speaking to the exact opposite here, women who do want a family but find out too late for one reason or another that it never happened.
I'd really like to see the data. I'm suspecting a bit of a biased sample with 80% regret figures.
For example: Surveying women who have unsucessfully been through fertility treatment is going to throw up higher 'regret' figures, than surveying highly successful, and childless-by-choice business-women.
Yes very much to this.
The obvious challenge is that it is almost impossible for a single mother in her early 20's to manage young children and grow a career at the same time. With the support of a partner and extended family the picture looks quite different. With the opportunity to work more from home, the picture changes again.
If we normalised life-long learning for all adults, if the political left more aggressively went after long standing workplace prejudices around age – for both young and old – this would help massively.
If we dismantled the lie we tell young people that career is the only thing that matters in life, and restored the innate dignity and respect parenthood is rightly due – this might shift the picture again.
All this just scratches the surface.
While the support of a partner *can* make having a family and a career possible, it doesn't always do so. And working from home is frequently not realistic with small children (as many families found out during lockdown).
Our cultural attitudes assume that managing the family is 'women's work' (and even worse, unpaid women's work). So that means that it is Mum's career which comes second, Mum who has to organize and manage all of the childcare and family organization, and Mum who takes time off work when the kids are sick, or other arrangements fall through. Extended family, means it's Grandma who does all of this (not Grandpa).
Case in point. Recent school strike. We have around 30 people where I work who are parents of kids (or Grandparents – extended family) in the affected age group (5-14). In not one instance was it Dad or Grandad who was taking time off work, or arranging for alternative family care – in every case, it was Mum or Grandma.
There is absolutely *nothing* stopping Dad stepping up to the plate to either take responsibility or organize alternative care [We are a highly family-friendly firm, and the CEO had already said that we would support families through this by offering working from home, or shifting hours or taking leave – whatever they needed]. It's just an unspoken cultural assumption that Mum will deal with it.
I know two highly-paid businesswomen with kids (we became friends when we were all going through the toddler years). In both cases, they went back to work after the first year – and Dad was a SAH Dad. Both women *still managed all of the family organization* – Nannies, Kindy, School admin, sports teams. All of the stuff that a family with kids needs to keep organized and under control. Mum still does it.
And on that topic – a shout-out to the amazing group "Big Buddy" – which does exactly that. Buddy up boys who have no male role models in their lives with blokes who are looking to be mentors.
An outstanding charity – which makes a positive difference to so many boys.
https://www.bigbuddy.org.nz/
Yeah, that is fantastic.
It seems intuitively obvious that young boys and young girls will benefit greatly from having a positive Male role model (hopefully their Dad) fully involved in their upbringing.
It would seem the stats back this up (especially for young boys)
I was lucky enough to have two loving parents (mum and dad) in the same household and am 100% certain it helped me immeasurably.
Mum taught me how to treat a woman and Dad taught me how to behave towards women (which yes is probably horribly old fashioned these days).
But growing up observing how Dad treated Mum and behaved to all women (as an absolute gentleman) and the fact that they were married 50 odd years makes me think sometimes that some of these 'old fashioned' ideas are worth keeping.
I suspect that many young men these days are never taught and have no idea or even concept of what being a gentleman (or just a man) is.
Sometimes when I see or hear about another female victim of horrific violence or even at the other end of the scale just rudeness I have to remind myself that the way I feel about such things isn't 'built in' ,which is what it feels like but mostly taught or learned.
I've forgotten my point now…hehehe
[Good morning, a week ago you agreed to stick to one username + e-mail address (see https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-27-03-2023/#comment-1941759). If you keep using two e-mail addresses, I will permanently ban one of them and your comments will disappear from the radar before the Mods can see & approve them; the Mods won’t be able to restore your comments, even if they’d want to. Your call – Incognito]
Mod note
Its certainly been an interesting discussion and raised many things, and hopefully some self reflection too.
Also been a welcome change from the usual diet of dreary National/Act bad, Labour/Green good, opinion posts. And hasnt it been revealing of assorted politicians and assorted contributors you thought you knew?
I’ve felt intellectually challenged to think about some things, in a way that I havent, for a long time on the TS.
One thing I've learnt is that my ideas can change and be modified by other commenters.Especially when a commenter lacks animus, is engaging in a genuine exercise to understand ,to articulate how they think and feel, rather than slamming or insulting others
Yes I agree Francesca
Which of us (commenters here) "lacks animus,"
Please explain. I'm genuinely interested (others may be also).
The discussion above has been fantastic……
Too late now for me to do than skim read but tomorrow I will read in more depth.
I certainly feel heartened by the good sense here.
Reading these comments from Belladonna, Redlogix and Tsmithfield again. And the reflections by Hetzer, MichaelP and Francesca.
I have learned so much from them and I see I have already used your comment TS about chauvinism and seeming RW male support of women's issues……hope I credited you but I fear I may not have. ?