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Open mike 02/09/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 2nd, 2020 - 242 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

242 comments on “Open mike 02/09/2020 ”

  1. Andre 1

    It's an interesting campaign strategy to whip up fear about a bunch of things that have turned to shit on your own watch. Because you've been actively turning them to shit.

    • mauī 1.1

      It's also an interesting strategy to blame a right wing president on left aligned protests/riots in democrat led cities. But when you don't have a campaign.. you gotta campaign on something I spose.

      • Andre 1.1.1

        Dunno how protesting about unarmed people getting murdered by police being grossly over-reactive to the situation is a left thing, but anyhoo. Dunno why you think encouraging armed thugs from out of town to go in to mix it up in protests that have nothing to do with them is a good thing, but it looks like since the tangelo turdgoblin encourages it you seem to feel the need to defend it. Hey, you do you.

        As far as a campaign message goes, Biden is quite clear: violence, looting, property damage etc are not protest and are not OK.


        • Morepork

          You are quite correct about Biden; he has been very clear to condemn the violence. However Maui's point in his first sentence stands. In this piece (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/07/16/maybe-trump-shouldnt-save-democrat-run-cities-besieged-by-violence/) Marc Thiessen talks about the "spineless response of these local Democratic leaders to violent protests in their cities", and how "many of America’s cities are conducting social experiments in lawlessness, showing the rest of the country what happens when local leaders join calls to “defund the police” and cower in the face of violence." Legitimate protest against racism and just plain thuggish policing is one thing; property damage and outright violence conducted by the likes of antifa is another thing altogether.

          • Andre

            If you're trying to make a serious point, you might want a better cite than a long-term Repug paid liar.

            Marc Alexander Thiessen (born January 13, 1967) is an American author, political appointee, and weekly columnist for The Washington Post. Thiessen served as a speechwriter for United States President George W. Bush from 2004 to 2009 and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld from 2001 to 2006.


            In this particular case, the quotes you've picked from Thiessen's piece merely make vague insinuations and fail to point to any specific cities, people, actions or incidents. Which makes it just a general smear job, not an actual argument in good faith amenable to reasoned rebuttal.

            • Morepork

              Clearly you don't like the messenger, but it seems you actually haven't read the message.

              “the quotes you’ve picked from Thiessen's piece merely make vague insinuations and fail to point to any specific cities, people, actions or incidents.”



              That's just the first paragraph. The article is replete with specific examples of "cities, people, actions or incidents".

              • Andre

                Those aren't from Thiessen's piece.

                The first piece from The Oregonian doesn't cover any failings of Portland's or Oregon's leadership, but is about the heavy-handed actions from uninvited federal agents. That makes it much better support for the argument that the Mango Mussolini is deliberately trying to incite violence.

                As for your second link – you're trying to suggest Deranged Dotard making self-serving mouth noises bears any connection whatsoever to reality? Seriously? After more than four years of it being very well documented that any assertion he makes is much more likely to be a lie than truth?



                • Morepork

                  "Those aren't from Thiessen's piece."

                  Yes, they are! They are links taken directly from his article that reference "specific cities, people, actions or incidents”.

                  And Thiessen makes this point:

                  “In New York City, shootings during one week in June were up 358 percent over the previous year, while the number of police retirements has skyrocketed 411 percent — a vote of no confidence in the city’s left-wing leadership. In Atlanta, murders are up 86 percent. In Minneapolis, shootings are up 47 percent. In Philadelphia, shootings involving children are up 43 percent, and 96 percent of the victims are black. In Chicago, 106 people were shot during a single weekend in June, 14 of them fatally, while this past weekend, 64 people were shot, and 11 died. All these cities are run by Democrats.”

                  And then he links directly to leadership:

                  “Then there is the spineless response of these local Democratic leaders to violent protests in their cities. Seattle Mayor Jenny Durkan called the Capitol Hill Occupied Protest, which took over several city blocks and a park, a “block party” and compared it to the “summer of love” — only to see multiple assaults and two murders take place in the police-free zone she permitted to exist for nearly a month. In Portland, Ore. — a hotbed of antifa violence — mayhem has raged for nearly two months as violent protesters have set more than 100 fires, looted business and done millions of dollars in property damage to local businesses. Rioters have attacked police with rocks, glass bottles, soup cans, frozen water bottles, bricks and fireworks, according to court documents filed by police. The mayor seems unable or unwilling to quell the violence.”

                  These are not ‘vague insinuations’. They are accusations of lax governance, supported by specific examples.

                  • Andre

                    Were you born stupid or did you get someone to hit you on the head to make you that way?

                    Those links were not Thiessen's words that you quoted. Nor do they support the argument Thiessen is apparently trying to make.

                    It's not that I don't like Thiessen. It's that he has a very long history of lying in order to deceive people into supporting Repugs. And zero history of producing reasoned principled argument backed by reasonable interpretation of facts and evidence. It's a total waste of time and limited page views reading him, unless you feel a need to track what lies are currently being spewed. That he has cited an article showing the thuggery of federal agents acting outside of any reasonable interpretation of their jurisdiction sent in by by a lawless thuggish president, to try to gaslight that Democrats are somehow responsible for the violence, is just more evidence of Thiessen's attempted deceptivenesss.

                    • Morepork

                      Hold on. Originally you claimed “Those aren’t from Thiessen’s piece”, yet they were.

                      Now your claiming “Those links were not Thiessen's words that you quoted” but I never claimed they were ‘Thiessens words’. If you had read the article you would see that they are links taken directly from his article to support his opinion.

                      " Nor do they support the argument Thiessen is apparently trying to make. "
                      Yes, they do. They draw a credible link between the words and actions of Democrat leaders and violent demonstrations in their cities.

                      I stand by my response to you earlier. You didn’t bother to read the message because you don’t like the messenger.

                  • Gabby

                    Two murders in over a month sounds kind of low. They might be better off without police.

                    • Morepork

                      I very much doubt it. Although there seems to be some Democratic politicians who are prepared to try that as a social experiment,

                    • Gabby

                      You might be mistaken about what defunding means, or you might be deliberately misunderstanding.

                • Morepork

                  BTW, if you're triggered by Thiessen, you might prefer Jonathan Turley (https://thehill.com/opinion/civil-rights/500605-antifa-and-anarchists-have-hijacked-floyd-protests-but-left-wont-admit-it):

                  " Yet despite its violent history, some Democratic leaders have been enablers or outright supporters of the antifa movement…"

                  " Other Democratic leaders have been much more direct in their support, including the former deputy chair of the Democratic Party, Representative Keith Ellison. Although Germany has banned an antifa website, Ellison posed with the antifa handbook to show support at a Minneapolis bookshop and said it would “strike fear in the heart” of Trump. "

                • greywarshark

                  Mango Mussolini! Andre is that your own work? Brilliant.

          • mauī

            Absolutely correct. Thank you Morepork.

          • McFlock

            I guess if property damage is totally unacceptable, maybe the cops and govt should have instigated some changes in their behaviour when Colin Kaepernick took a knee. But that didn't work, so here we are.

            • Morepork

              Violence and property damage is not ok. There are plenty of other ways to demonstrate against happened to Trayvon Martin.

              • McFlock

                They were tried, and failed.

                Property damage (the violence mostly comes from the cops) seems to be having some effect.

                Because the cops recklessly (at best) killing people is not ok, either. If a donut store has to be trashed before murderers in uniform are charged, I'm not going to get worked up over the vandalism.

                • Morepork

                  The violence I'm referring to is coming from some within the protestors. The only effect that is having is to harm innocent individuals, and place the police and citizenry at even greater risk.

                  • McFlock

                    Yes, you're very careful to avoid referring to violence committed by police or right wing mobs with guns.

                    • Morepork

                      That hasn't been the subject of discussion. I'm happy to oblige if you wish.

                    • McFlock

                      It was a subject being discussed, and one that you carefully ignored. But there won't be anything informative or particularly believable about any belated platitudes you might make, so don't bother.

                    • Morepork

                      " It was a subject being discussed, "

                      Not in this thread. This convo started with https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02-09-2020/#comment-1747334. The comment referred to " left aligned protests/riots in democrat led cities. " Not sure what you've been reading.

                    • McFlock

                      introduced at comment 1.1.1. Referred to by myself and others from there.

                      So very much a part of this thread.

                      Even you had to tangentially refer to "thuggish policing" before quickly changing the topic back to a tone argument.

                    • Morepork

                      You made no reference to violence by cops until https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02-09-2020/#comment-1747560, and no refernce to right wing violence until https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02-09-2020/#comment-1747577.

                      You came late to the conversation and didn't read back. Possibly why you’ve added nothing of value.

                      [Genuine debate assumes good faith and I’m starting to doubt you’re interested in this, as you don’t appear to comment in good faith. You can go back to comment 1.1.1, which is a direct reply to comment 1.1, which is where “[t]his convo started” according to you, and read it back for yourself and see for yourself that McFlock was correct. In addition, there is no hierarchy or ownership as such in and of discussion threads based on the timing at which a commenter joins in; what matters is that people engage on-topic and with respect, which you failed to do with your snide comment. If you continue your apparent disinterest in genuine debate based on good faith, you can read this site’s Policy about what might happen next. As a newcomer to this site, I strongly suggest you read the Policy before commenting again – Incognito]

                    • Incognito []

                      See my Moderation note @ 12:31 PM.

                • Morepork

                  " If a donut store has to be trashed before murderers in uniform are charged, I'm not going to get worked up over the vandalism. "

                  Unless and until it was your donut shop, I suspect. Violent protest that harms innocent people and/or their property is never ok. It is a shift towards anarchy, and solves nothing.

                  • McFlock

                    Organised labour throughout the world (especially coal miners in early 20C USA) suggest that you're full of crap.

                    • Morepork

                      Organised labour throughout the world has been full of thugs and corrupt practice. We only have to look over the Tasman. “According to evidence before the royal commission, the CFMEU has clear links to organised crime.”https://www.afr.com/policy/economy/the-corruption-of-organised-labour-20141009-11bxr8. Doesn’t make it right.

                    • Morepork

                      …and it doesn;t mean it works. Perhaps you've acknowledged that by digging out a 100+ years dispute that was not resolved by violent thuggery (although that was certainly a part of some organised labour activities).

                    • McFlock

                      So now organised crime is relevant to "violent protest" (as if the criminals didn't also get paid by the employers), but the police thuggery and murders that sparked the BLM protests aren't part of the thread. lol

                      Oh, and "especially" does not mean "restricted to".

                      Feel free to offer a relevant comment.

                    • Morepork
                      1. Organised 'labour'. That's the term you used.

                      2. 'The police' are not organised crime.

                      3. Events in the coal industry 100 years ago are not relevant to what is happening today. And violent protest did not solve those problems.

                      Educate yourself.

                    • McFlock

                      1: I talked about organised labour, you talked about organised crime.

                      2: I didn't say they were. Some might, but I did not.

                      3: because you missed it the first time, I'll put it in italics. "Especially" does not mean "restricted to".

                      Have another go at saying something relevant to what I actually wrote.

                    • Morepork
                      1. No, I talked about organised labour. You mentioned organised crime in your previous post.
                      1. I didn't say you did. What you did was conflate organised crime with the police.
                      2. Because you seem to think disputes in the coal mining industry 100 years ago are somehow relevant, at least educate yourself about how those disputes were settled. Certainly not by violenece and rioting.

                      [You have been on the Moderators’ radar and have already received a couple of warnings. You conflated “organised labour” and “organised crime” in your comment: https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02-09-2020/#comment-1748423 at 5:06 PM. You are contradicting and confusing yourself, at best, or gaslighting and being disingenuous, at worst. Lift your game – incognito]

                    • Incognito []

                      See my Moderation note @ 9:36 PM.

                    • McFlock

                      1: link to you introducing oraganised crime into the thread not 5 hours ago.

                      2: Nope. That's your stupidity writing cheques that your reading comprehension can't cash.

                      3: Again, you opened the door to it with the suggestion that property damage is "never ok" and "achieves nothing". Organised labour throughout the world did not make achievements by being lickspittles.

                      Unless you can actually write a comment relevant to my previous responses, I suspect we're done here.

                      edit: took so bloody long to write a response to all the foolishness that Incognito made a similar point, I might go and do something productive instead.

                    • Morepork

                      This is my words.

                      "This is someone elses words, in this case a Royal Commission into organised LABOUR"

                      I'm sensing you're a waste of time.

                    • McFlock

                      You are literally incapable of even quoting yourself.

                      Does the concept of “cut and paste” hurt your tiny tory bigot mind? Or does mummy usually help you with the typing?

                    • McFlock

                      OH! Sorry, your stupid was momentarily inscrutable! Do you think that if you include a quote in your comment, you're not actually introducing the contents of that quote into the thread? That maybe it doesn't exist at all? Have you cast into existence some new principle of written communication?

                      What is your major malfunction, numbnuts? Didn't Mommy and Daddy show you enough attention, when you were a child?!

                    • Morepork

                      " Do you think that if you include a quote in your comment, you're not actually introducing the contents of that quote into the thread? "

                      The contents of that quote were about organised labour. They were in direct response to your comment https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02-09-2020/#comment-1748393. I made no comment about organised crime at all. My comment opened with the words ‘organised labour’, and was pointing you to a Royal Commission on organised LABOUR, that happened to show what a corrupt bunch they can be. You eityher have a very low IQ approach to conversation, or you’re just trolling for the sake of an argument. Either way, you’re a waste of time.

                      EDIT: “OH! Sorry, your stupid was momentarily inscrutable! ”
                      Low IQ it is.

                      [This is your words.

                      … the CFMEU has clear links to organised crime. [my italics]

                      I’m sensing you’re wasting our time.

                      I’m sensing that you’re a disingenuous commenter who does not own their own words.

                      I’m sensing that you’re not going to lift your game.

                      I’m sensing that you’re banned until 1 November.


                    • Incognito []

                      See my Moderation note @ 5:57 PM.

                    • McFlock

                      I made no comment about organised crime at all.

                      The moderator disagrees with you.

                  • Stuart Munro

                    And yes I am outraged at the killing of George Floyd.

                    Well, you see, I don't believe you. You always have a "But…" in there.

                    We don’t repay or resolve injustice by punishing innocents, but by holding the perpetrators accountable.

                    It sounds almost plausible – if you devoted any energy at all to going after those perpetrators – the murdering cops, in case you've forgotten.

                    Because from what you've had to say so far you just want the protests to stop. You're more concerned with that, than justice for Floyd or reform of the US police to prevent reoccurrences.

                    The rule of law and the value of human life go hand in hand,

                    ​​​​​​​Not if you're black in America they don't.

          • Gabby

            After all, property is sacrosanct while lives are expendable.

            • Morepork

              It's not either or. I value life far above property. I just don't agree with looting and violence to demonstrate against loss of life.

              • McFlock

                Taking a knee didn't fucking work.

                • Morepork

                  Nor will looting and violence. It is feeding Trump and dividing America even more, if that is possible.

                    • Morepork

                      A proposal (see the correction at the foot of the article) to disband the city's police force is an achievement? How do you measure 'achievement'?

                    • McFlock

                      lol A proposal that was passed a few weeks later.

                      And the state legislature also made some significant changes to go to the governor.

                      So organisational change progressed by confrontational protests, not by politely taking a knee.

                    • Morepork

                      Are you seriously suggesting that a social experiment that hasn’t even been passed by voters has actually achieved anything? This is more likely to be an absolute disaster, but then neither of us know yet.

                      (Note – FYI the article concludes “Despite unanimous support Friday, the amendment faces a number of bureaucratic obstacles before voters can vote on it in November.” November. So it actually hasn’t ‘achieved’ a damn thing.)

                    • McFlock

                      Regardless of whether you think it will be a disaster, even placing the concept in front of the electorate is more progress on the issue than taking a knee ever got.

                      Because although many of the folks outraged by the current protests were also outraged by athletes daring to take a knee, in the end the athletes could be minimised and ignored. They tried it your way. They didn't even get the idea put before the city council, let alone the electorate.

                    • Morepork

                      "…even placing the concept in front of the electorate is more progress on the issue than taking a knee ever got."

                      It hasn't 'achieved' anything. The vote is yet to take place, and there is absolutely no guarantee an affirmative vote will lead to any positive change. At least 'taking a knee' has raised awareness.

                    • McFlock


                      So "raising awareness" is more of an achievement than getting political action from a city council?

                      Oh, and the protests have "raised awareness", too.

                    • Morepork

                      " So "raising awareness" is more of an achievement than getting political action from a city council? "

                      Yes, it is. The policy action means nothing until it is affirmed by popular vote. Further, even if passed, the policy has achieved nothing until it actually produces favourable results. I would venture that the peaceful protests, which have had a positive impact across the planet, have achieved far more for the cause than opportunist nutcases rioting and looting.

                    • McFlock

                      Oh, you're back, and still full of shit.

                      "Raising awareness" is literally the least that can happen while still being a theoretical change from the status quo.

                      Working through the process of legislative change is still closer to achieving change than "raising awareness" even if it is eventually unsuccessful in this instance.

                      "Awareness" frequently changes nothing.

                    • Morepork

                      " Working through the process of legislative change is still closer to achieving change than "raising awareness" even if it is eventually unsuccessful in this instance. "

                      Rubbish. Raising awareness is here and now. Working through legislative change (in this case) leads to an as yet undermined vote by electors on what is at best a highly dubious policy.

                      You seem happy to sit back and wait for legislation that defies human nature. Raising awareness brings far more immediate public pressure to bear on an issue that needs addressing now.

                    • McFlock

                      lol so now removing a corrupt system developed to oppress people and replacing it with a less oppressive system of social support and public safety is "against human nature"?

                      "Raising awareness" means people know about something. Legislative change, especially via referendum, means people know about it and have the power to do something about it.

                    • Morepork

                      "lol so now removing a corrupt system developed to oppress people and replacing it with a less oppressive system of social support and public safety is "against human nature"?"

                      It's a lala land proposal.

                      ""Raising awareness" means people know about something. Legislative change, especially via referendum, means people know about it and have the power to do something about it."

                      Meh. Youre referring to change that is basically at this point in time nothing more than a silly political idea. Come back when it's passed into law and been enacted and implemented for a few years. You know, when it’s actually had a chance to achieve anything.

                    • McFlock

                      So to recap, you regard "raising awareness" as some modicum of achievement.

                      But if actions raise a level of awareness that creates legislative action followed by a law-changing referendum and implementation of that law change, you'll want to wait a few years to see if it achieved anything.

                      Seems legit, lolsarc

                    • Morepork

                      " you regard "raising awareness" as some modicum of achievement. "

                      In the case of peaceful protest. most definitely. Athletes taking a knee have been viewed by tens of millions, perhaps hundreds of millions, of people across the planet.

                      In the UK alone, the viewer numbers for the resumption of the EPL (where players ‘took the knee’ and wore “Black Live Matter” on their jerseys) were staggering. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/06/english-premier-league-players-knee-season-resumes-200618093742276.html

                      "But if actions raise a level of awareness that creates legislative action followed by a law-changing referendum and implementation of that law change, you'll want to wait a few years to see if it achieved anything. "

                      There has been no law change, and there is no guarantee there will be. And even if there is, the result is a flaky social experiment that defies human nature.

                  • Stuart Munro

                    How do you measure 'achievement'?

                    A policy that creates a sensible decrease in deaths like Breonna Taylor's, and the end of qualified privilege.

                  • Stuart Munro

                    Voting is neither here nor there in extremis – and when police are breaking into peoples homes and shooting them – extrajudicial killings in fact – a democracy relies on sensible decisions from incumbents to de-escalate the potential for violence. Legality comes later.

                    No chance of that from Trump of course – civil unrest is his main hope of re-election. But quite a few administrations across the US have successfully defused the issue.

                    • Morepork

                      " a democracy relies on sensible decisions from incumbents to de-escalate the potential for violence. "

                      Yes, I agree. However that shouldn't mean sacrificing the rule of law. We can be outraged by the killing of George Floyd and take meaningful action without condoning violence and looting.

                  • Stuart Munro

                    that shouldn't mean sacrificing the rule of law

                    The rule of law is not more sacrosanct than the lives of innocent citizens routinely extrajudicially killed in the US – except of course to you and those like you.

                    We can be outraged by the killing of George Floyd and take meaningful action without condoning violence and looting.

                    It's funny, but you don't give the impression of being outraged at the killings at all.

                    It's pretty simple accounting actually: violence and looting bad, murder by police officers very much worse. It's not rational to make the resolution of the major issue conditional on the minor one. But of course, that's not your object.

                    • Morepork

                      The rule of law and the value of human life go hand in hand, in my view.

                      And yes I am outraged at the killing of George Floyd. But two wrongs don't make a right. We don’t repay or resolve injustice by punishing innocents, but by holding the perpetrators accountable.

              • greywarshark

                Morepork You are virtue signalling aren't you? Making proud statements about your high beliefs is insulting to the rest of us I think. As if we don't understand standards and good civil behaviour. However the talk is about cruel regimes and protest against them, which is something you appear to have trouble understanding is reality.

        • Morepork

          To be consistent with your approach, I should immediately discount your source as being from a news source with a far left bias. But I'll resist.

          • Andre

            The difference is Amanda Marcotte doesn't have a long long history of shameless partisan lying, covers actual facts and evidence, and her links go to sources that are actually relevant and support her argument.

            • Morepork

              "… doesn't have a long long history of shameless partisan lying, "

              There you go again. Jonathan Turley doesn't either. But you didn’t name him in response to my link, you just criticised the news source he was writing in. Shallow as.

              You also haven’t posted any evidence that Marc Theissen does, either. I realise you don’t like the guy, but hell that doesn't make him wrong.

              • joe90

                Jonathan Turley doesn't either.

                You're a fan of a partisan hack and and an evil POS?


                Jonathan Turley, a law professor who appeared as a Republican witness in Wednesday’s impeachment hearings, made a number of claims that directly contradicted his previous statements and testimony.

                On Wednesday, Turley argued there was no proof that President Donald Trump broke a specific law related to the Ukraine scandal and therefore should not be impeached.

                But in 1998, Turley made the opposite case, telling Congress during former President Bill Clinton’s impeachment hearings that Clinton’s actions didn’t need to violate any laws in order to be impeachable conduct.

                “While there’s a high bar for what constitutes grounds for impeachment, an offence does not have to be indictable,” he wrote in a 2014 op-ed for The Washington Post.


                In “Courting Disaster: How the C.I.A. Kept America Safe and How Barack Obama Is Inviting the Next Attack,” Mr. Thiessen, a practicing Roman Catholic, says that waterboarding suspected terrorists was not only useful and desirable, but permitted by the teachings of the Catholic Church.


                • Morepork

                  So you don’t like the guy's opinion on waterboarding, but you have no evidence that he has "a long long history of shameless partisan lying". That's good.

                  Meanwhile, Thurley is far from partisan. He "called for criminal prosecution of Bush administration officials for war crimes, including torture", and " He has written extensively in opposition to the death penalty, noting, "Human error remains a principal cause of botched executions… eventually society will be forced to deal directly with a fundamental moral question: Has death itself become the intolerable element of the death penalty?" and " Turley also has testified in Congress against President Bush's warrantless domestic surveillance program and was lead counsel in a case challenging it." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Turley

                • greywarshark

                  Joe 90 This Morepork seems to be using the right wing ploys and rationalisations just as Greg Larsen demonstrated that you put up earlier!

      • millsy 1.1.3

        A right wing president who refuses to condemn the police execution of unarmed and innocent black men, and holds police officers up in high regard to the point that they are allowed to do anything they like and they will not be sanctioned or punished.

        • greywarshark

          All these from 1, about 50 comments, and all connected to the USA. It's a big world out there. What about putting another country under the microscope, India for instance that seems under Modi to be going for a Muslim clear-out and possibly Christian too. What do Indians who come to this country think about other religions?

          Murica is a distraction for us and right here we have got distracted with attacks on commenters here, and lots of acrimony. What's the point of enabling this farcical discussion purporting to be intelligent? Why can't commenters just leave drops of dirty water to dry up in the sunlight and disappear?

  2. tc 2

    Odious Polly watch: Tony the Abbott's at it again on the Oz taxpayer.

    Suggesting we leave the old to it and the virus run free. Perfect candidate for Boris to endorse for the trough. It’s in the guardian, I’d link but not on this device, apologies.

    • RedBaronCV 2.1

      Yes Tony has had a major "kill granny to save the economy" moment. I think he is a very devout conservative catholic – funny the ideas that can co exist. Other than that I'm sure a large chunk of Australia will be delighted to palm him off on Boris.

      • woodart 2.1.1

        good point redbaron. would like to see him reconcile his right-to-life catholism with letting granny die.

        • In Vino

          Oh Come on-

          It's only the poor little unborn zygotes that are sacred human life. Once you are actually born, your rights diminish to the point that adults can be cannon fodder in wartime, etc.

  3. Descendant Of Smith 3

    Interesting thoughts about where we are at present. Much of this resonates. It's why I'd rather see power sharing with Maori (60 seats each in parliament), work and leisure shared more evenly – 30 or less working hour week with work spread amongst more of the population, copyright periods reduced so more things entered the commons earlier. More leisure, more equality – time for people to pursue and experience more than economic growth.


    "How did we get here? Every age has a paradigm of human organization. A set of defining principles and beliefs about what life is for. In the past, you can think of things like tribalism, feudalism, mercantilism, and so on. What’s our paradigm? Why isn’t it working?

    Every paradigm’s end, purpose, defines it. We organize — whether countries, companies, societies, days, projects, investments — for just one sole end: maximizing income. Whether it’s called GDP, profits, shareholder value, all are more or less different words for the same imperative: the most income over the smallest increment of time an organization can produce. This overarching social goal of maximizing income trickles down into maximizing incomes for corporations and firms and banks and households so on.

    Today’s paradigm of human organization — which is a relic of the industrial age — is economic. Our lives — in fact, all life on the planet, in fact, all life in the universe, because life on this planet is the only life that we know of anywhere in existence — are thus oriented around the pursuit of a single end: maximizing short-term income. Maximizing immediate financial income is the sole purpose of all the life that we know of, which all the life that there is."

    • Dennis Frank 3.1

      What’s our paradigm? Why isn’t it working?

      Resilience & sustainability. Because Labour & National still refuse to shift to it.

      copyright periods reduced so more things entered the commons earlier

      Damn right. Sharing & caring prioritised over private profit for long enough to retilt the balance societally.

      More leisure, more equality

      We were promised that throughout the 1960s, in endless media stories, social analysis, futurism, until a total consensus of expectation prevailed.

      Then we were betrayed by Labour & National. In retrospect, it seems evident that both wings of the establishment were treating the people as suckers. It was a con.

      • Descendant Of Smith 3.1.1

        Yeah it is like promising increased productivity leads to better wages – hope it doesn't.

        Increased productivity means less people to do the job.You lay off those people unless you can increase sales/market share.

        Your productivity means you can reduce your competition through selling at a lower cost. They lose their jobs. Less people to do the job means there is a pool of people unemployed who can do the job. A pool of unemployed who can do the job means you can replace errant workers as a workforce is available.

        Productivity improvements can only result in less pay. Freezing works is a classic example.

        • Pat

          "Productivity improvements can only result in less pay."

          …or less hours devoted to production, how the benefits of increased productivity are distributed is the key.

          Keynes posited that by now the working week would be 15 hours

          • Draco T Bastard

            …or less hours devoted to production, how the benefits of increased productivity are distributed is the key.


            Higher productivity gives us choices that we didn't have before. We could all work less and have more leisure, we could have better education or we could have more R&D. There are, of course, even more choices.

            Those choices were taken away from us so that the rich could get richer.

            • Pat

              in simple terms yes…we have gifted the benefits of increased productivity to the wealthy so they can disproportionately use the real resources…but the choice has been with us since the advent of (modern) democracy, that we fail to grasp it is on us, though Im happy to concede that the vested interests devote their energies to making sure we dont believe we can…and im still not convinced we will manage it any better if we did realise our power.

              • Draco T Bastard

                but the choice has been with us since the advent of (modern) democracy

                Modern Representative Democracy was designed to prevent democracy. The new rich at the end of the English Revolution didn't want democracy and the same was true after the American Revolution (Pols 202). What we got was a compromise that left the power in the hands of a few that were controlled by the rich.

                As I say, an actual democracy is, by default, communist as its controlled by the people.

                • Pat

                  There are many impediments to enacting the desires of the majority but in a country such as NZ (possibly due to its size and global (in)significance) there are no real barriers to electing a policy platform that is opposed to the capitalist narrative…we have indeed done so before.

                  When the 4th Labour Gov (and Treasury) duped the NZ electorate how did we react?…did we elect New Labour or the Alliance when the opportunity arose?….no, we elected Douglas in female form.

                  Its on us.

                  • Peter 1

                    You mite have, It's one of the reason I no longer vote Labour

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    The 4th National government got voted in because

                    1. They implied that they would undo the Douglass reforms
                    2. FPP which ensures that only two parties can exist and that one or the other must win

                    The problem now is that, even if we do show that we want something different, the government goes on with the 1980s reforms.

                    We actually need a majority Green government but most people are still wedded to either National or Labour. That will start changing soon as the Baby Boomers die off.

                    • Pat

                      Disagree… we do not show we desire different by the simple fact we continue to vote for them…there have been alternatives not taken for the past 4 decades

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      And many of those alternative were voted for at the time but FPP prevented them from being in government. People who voted for them learned their lesson – don't vote for the under-dog. Even now with MMP people still hold onto that lesson.

                      MMP is also a problem. I will be voting for the Labour candidate in my electorate. I don't want to but having him in is better than having the National candidate.

                      And that logic has applied across the last four decades and more as FPP forces a vote for the lesser evil.

                      Which, again, is why everyone who wants a better democracy should be voting Green this election as they're looking to change the voting system to preferential.

                      And don’t forget that we’ve been educated to believe that we need rich people.

                    • Pat

                      "….though Im happy to concede that the vested interests devote their energies to making sure we dont believe we can"

                      Again…its on us….we get the government we deserve

                  • Stuart Munro

                    Its on us.

                    Nope. The scoundrels who created our veiled oligarchy don't wiggle free quite so easily.

                    • Pat

                      keep telling yourself that….the fact remains the majority of voters have supported the status quo….given whats in front of us that may (MAY) change…Im not going to hold my breath

                • In Vino

                  Thanks Pat and Draco best sequence of comments in a long time. It needs to be repeated, because so many seem ignorant of it now. (Especially guys like Morepork, who somehow reminds me of someone I have read before on this site..)

                  I started secondary teaching in 1970. Alvin Toffler's Future Shock became the rage. We were told that in the future everyone would work shorter hours, and students needed to be educated to cope with much more leisure time. One period a week was devoted to 'Clubs' in the early-mid 80s. I remember taking groups for things like Chess, Cross-country, and the new sport of BMX about which I knew nothing.

                  How naive we were! If only I could have had the prescience (and cynicism) to have said at the time:

                  "No! This is all wrong! What we will in fact have is low wages, unemployment so that the poor are forced to accept shit wages; those who take such work will have less leisure time, not more, because they will have to take at least two jobs because of low pay, or even 3 because the 40-hour week would be gone, and 'flexibility' of hours would be their bane; and a large pool of unofficially unemployed underclass would emerge, not well enough off to indulge in the nice activities we were teaching them.

                  With hindsight, it was a farce. But it has taught me one thing: Never believe people who say we have to predict the future and teach students to be ready for it. That is Bullshit.

                  All we can prepare kids for is the likely prospect that the Rich will have tilted the playing field, and unless you are the children of the Rich, you will be in a society where social mobility will be ever-diminishing, so bad luck, dear students.

                  • Pat

                    If there is one positive thing the internet could do its providing the information for the masses to decode the BS….sadly its also available to the vested interests and f**k, dont they make use of it.

                    The academics, who should have been the backstop were undermined years ago

                    • In Vino

                      Yep. By the way, have you seen the latest reality show?

                      Edit – By the way, it was accepted by most forward-looking teachers back then that the best gift we could give our students was to teach them to have good Bullshit-Detectors.

                      We tried…

                    • greywarshark

                      'Again…its on us….we get the government we deserve'

                      The discussion above has just shown us that we don't understand what we are voting for, we haven't been given the educational background to enable us to analyse, use our imagination. How can we then get the government 'we deserve'.

                      We don't understand how to form one, and how to plan for provision of citizen needs Our parents had no future planning ideas or philosophies to pass on, the schools didn't, the universities might have tried in say their Development studies. None of us have been fitted to know what to learn and then what to aim for, and the government we have is the default one from Roger Douglas's crony capitalism cult members.

                      Our leaders had 50 years after the end of WW2 to make a better world, and get us ready to think our way to a better democracy and face up to the early recognised environmental problems. But we didn't make it top priority.

                      I did some Social Policy and started on the thinking path. But by that time the government was turning away from representing people who wanted to be socially mobile and instead went hob-knobbing with the wealthy, skilled at the seagull tactics of whipping away our lives while they were in our hands on their way to providing for our future. All gone, nearly.

                      So don't be too judgmental, not for long, and praise those still trying, in a practical way. The idealists determined to realise their dreams of the 1970s by repeating the slogans of that time are wasting our time. Sit in your rocking chairs and offer some wisdom from time to time, the hewers of civilisation have to go further and wider to make any way safe for those wishing to be warm humans flourishing together with room for argument and disagreement, finally settled without insisting on the dictatorship of consensus. A future satisfactory, lived simply using all our skills, together. And it may be separate from the tech cities – the town and country thing in a different paradigm.

                    • Pat

                      @ Greywarshark

                      It is evident too many of us dont understand what we vote for…..thats what political parties are supposed to make clear.

                      We can blame 'education' or the lack of if you wish but the purpose of education I have always believed is to instruct us how to learn for ourselves….and even so it dosnt require formal education to develop ethics.

                      It is after all relatively simple….how can so few have far more than they could ever possibly use when so many have nothing?

                  • Pat

                    Unlikely….reality (?) shows are not to my taste

  4. Robert Guyton 4

    "If that Government had been in charge now [during Covid-19], we’d have collateral damage of 3000 or 4000 elderly folk dead."

    Mike Coleman, a red-zoned Anglican priest and school counsellor.

    "As a New Zealander I’d backpacked around the world. You see some really corrupt governments, and I don’t think our government was corrupt in any sense, but you come home and go, “I’m in New Zealand. If something happens, they’re going to back me.” And lots of times, governments do.

    But in this case, they got it seriously wrong."


    • greywarshark 4.1

      This is about post-earthquake and what National chose not to do for the people that would have been fair and appropriate, and how if National had been in power at the start of the Covid-19 outbreak, and behaved in the same dilatory, apathetic, unethical way, the deaths would have been in the thousands.

      Thank God we have this government in at this time, and can people who don't want National's dilatory, apathetic, unethical pattern of government, please rise up and give a tick to the Party who will be there for us, working out how to manage the increasing negative events that are forecast to impact on us.

  5. dv 5

    Have any of the 'media,' published the latest Roy Morgan?

    • Stephen D 5.1

      I know the question was rhetorical, but nope.

    • Sabine 5.2

      why bother?the polling was taken two weeks ago, and considering the brouhaha since, the only poll relevant is the next one coming out. That will be the fun one.

    • swordfish 5.3


      While Greenies can be relatively satisfied with their Party's 3.5 point increase to 11.5% in the latest Roy Morgan … best they don't become too euphoric or take the figure literally.

      Roy Morgan tend to overstate Green support….

      For example, the Greens rated 10.5% in the RM in both Jan & Feb 2020 … and 11.5% in March.

      Around the same time, they were on 5.0% in the Colmar Brunton & 5.6% in Reid Research (with their ratings in Party Internals – Curia & UMR – taking an intermediate position at 7.0% & 9.0% respectively).

      (That’s putting aside, of course, any fallout from the latest micro-scandal involving affluent New Age Hippies, Private Schools, Crystals, aromatherapy, hands-on-healing & the channeling of some sort of mysterious universal energies known only to the terminally self-indulgent)

  6. Andre 6

    Uhhh, yeah. Always a good thing to respond to reports of your spare wheel being told to be ready to step in by asserting that reports of mini-strokes are FAKE NEWS. Leaving everyone to ask: what's this about mini-strokes?


    • Stuart Munro 6.1

      Reckon this is one of Trump's dead cats. He can win it by getting the story circulating, and since it isn't actually true, he can actually debunk it. Scores points with his base, erodes confidence in MSM.

      • Andre 6.1.1

        That all seems a bit too subtle and complex for Hair Twitler's non-thought processes. Possibly more of a failed attempt to plant an association of strokes with Biden.

        "It never ends! Now they are trying to say that your favorite President, me, went to Walter Reed Medical Center, having suffered a series of mini-strokes. Never happened to THIS candidate – FAKE NEWS," he tweeted.

        Trump then seemed to use his trip to Walter Reed, where Joe Biden's son Beau died from brain cancer, as a way to question the Democratic nominee's health, adding, "Perhaps they are referring to another candidate from another Party!"


  7. Stephen D 7

    'Particularly annoyed' Collins vows to find out who created 'misleading' National ad with her name on it

    Judith can't control her own party members.

    Regularly polling below 30%.

    Is there nobody left in the National cares who cares about the result? Have all the CVs gone out already? There's a story for Felicity Ferret.

    • mac1 7.1

      One of the questions I'd be asking of the 'strong team' is why any responsible for this lying, false and smearing (herself and others) misinformation should actually think that they should be doing it on behalf of the National Party.

      Not just the name of Judith Collins associated with it.

      The rank false letterhead.

      The misquoting.

      The lying by deception.

      The lying by omission.

      "Who are you that you think such lies and deception should be part of a political campaign?"

      But she won't.

      The same question to be asked of her husband since he chose also to enter the political arena with the same style of puerile and belittling characterisations.

      National does not deserve the 28% that Roy Morgan awards it!

    • Wensleydale 7.2

      Those 'emotional junior staffers' are at it again.

    • Draco T Bastard 7.3

      Quoting article:

      I am particularly annoyed that it has happened. It's not like its $11.7 million for the Green School.

      No, it's far, far worse as its actively lying.

  8. Andre 8

    Ooooh … below the belt.

    • Wensleydale 8.1

      It's blisteringly obvious Melania can't stand him. She finds him understandably repellent, so I hope the money keeps her warm at night. I feel sorry for Barron. He's likely going to grow up to be a dysfunctional young man, which is a tragedy.

  9. mango 9

    I know that some will disagree but the current hysterical attack on the green party is starting to smell of dirty politics. Of course the journos are always looking for the latest gotcha and are willing dupes of anyone willing to provide it but it feels like more than that to me.

    The whole new age thing seems deliberately calculated to rile the christian fundies even though they are not going to be GP supporters anyway, but it does remind me of the exclusive brethren thing.

    • woodart 9.1

      agree mango. I expect more attempted hit jobs on greens and nzfirst. if you cant dent jacinda's popularity, the next targets are the gov support parties. theres one journo(?) in particular that seems to specialise in hit jobs on nzfirst. must be time for him to crawl out from whatever rock he dwells under.

  10. Dennis Frank 10

    Families divided by belief systems – what else is new? 🙄

    Since the Covid-19 pandemic began, New Zealand, along with many other countries, has seen a spike in the number of conspiracy theories being shared online. Ideas that were once fringe are becoming more mainstream.

    Grant says his parents are just ageing lefty hippies, who have some alternative views… Grant* is considering secretly cutting off his parents' internet connection, which may sound dramatic, but he is desperate.

    He's tried talking to them privately about the videos and articles they share on social media – the ones that make false, often conflicting claims about almost everything – from Bill Gates, vaccinations, microchips and Agenda 2030 – the United Nations' sustainable development goals – to 5G, 'Big Pharma', and far-right theories about Trump and hydroxychloroquine.

    But he's had no success – they won't listen to him. They won't stop believing conspiracy theories. https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/in-depth/424112/when-a-relative-falls-down-a-conspiracy-theory-rabbit-hole

    Well, no. People believe what they want. Trying to persuade others to believe what you believe never works. The best you can hope to achieve is raising awareness of alternative views. Facts sometimes work too – but that depends on palatability.

    Grant's parents came across Plandemic – a slick-looking 'documentary' which claims a secret society of billionaires is plotting to gain global domination by controlling people through a Covid-19 vaccine.

    It went viral and Grant's parents, who were already against vaccination, shared it on Facebook, believing it was true. What saddens Grant about all this, is that though his mum and dad are sharing misinformation, adding to an already raging infodemic during a global crisis, they're not bad people.

    They believe what they're sharing is true. "They have good hearts. They're coming from a good place. They're not trying to hurt anyone. They think they're helping people," he says… When Grant tried to speak to them, he was stonewalled.

    I suspect his experience is a happening thing up & down the country nowadays.

    If academic theories about socio-economic status, education and a lack of power making people vulnerable to conspiracy thinking are correct, then the cumulative effects of colonisation means Māori are some of the most at risk.

    It's something that researcher and environmentalist Tina Ngata (Ngāti Porou) has thought about a lot in her work combating the spread of false information… "it is really easy to believe that there are people out there with ill intentions toward you, that there are people out there who want to continue to dispossess you, and that that intention will extend to wiping you out, because that's in our history," Ngata says. "So when people want to suggest that there is a greater power out there, seeking to take everything off you… It's only too believable when that experience, it's in your DNA."

    Inasmuch as the control system has always worked via deceit, discovery of that (via reading history or websites) can induce an internal binary trigger, flipping people from sheeple status into the supposed cognoscenti. Those with critical faculties may not succumb to an alternative belief system (natural sceptics tend not to become victims) but many happily replace the trad narrative with a seductive alternative, uncritically.

    If the establishment were to stop lying to everyone, the potential for mass sociopathy would not be so dangerous. The mental health of the public remains vulnerable to delusions via contagion as long as the political left & right refuse to behave themselves.

    • greywarshark 10.1

      Those with university degrees now and particularly in science, feel that everything they know is invulnerable to any other point of view. They cite evidence-based as their mantra, which relates back to Age of Enlightment views setting reason and evidence against church edicts and dogma beliefs.

      But now the belief is in the correctness of anything that gets presented from some learning institution, in words and figures with some provenance; the thought that so-called evidence based stuff has to be checked for bias is broadly by-passed. And stuff that the older person knows from lifelong learning and observing is of no more significance than anything that has been picked out the broad mass of memes always circling. In fact if it isn't touted as a new idea by media, it is old hat, and not the Sorting Hat either.

  11. Muttonbird 11

    So, Mrs Wong-Tung 'didn't even know about' the fake ad she authorised. How then can she claim to be across her role? And how can she criticise others for not being across theirs?


    Mrs Wong-Tung is calling for James Shaw to resign over the Green School funding decision. This is the dead cat strategy we knew she would use to distract from her own failings as a leader and a wife.

    • woodart 11.1

      collins doesnt seem to know whether to come across as crusher or cushla. maybe having a doorstop for a deputy hasnt helped. for a party that pushes the team word, she seems to be doing all of the heavy lifting. anybody seen any of her team?

      • Shanreagh 11.1.1

        I think they are all busy scurrying around looking and digging for dirt plus writing false ads that she then has to deny or ringing up talkback radio shows……they're really busy people.

      • mac1 11.1.2

        The 'strong team' might be trying to dissociate itself from the strong stench coming from the top table.

        The strong team is so strong that it can write lying messages using the imprimatur of their leader seemingly without fear of the strong leader's disapproval.

    • fender 11.2

      Funny also that there's been no mention of the serious money wasted on Nationals charter school b.s.

  12. Tricledrown 12

    Gerry mandering Brownlee saying the Sam Morgan covid card should have already been in use.

    The cost of $400 million supposedly not a problem even if it doesn't work ,no trial required with windbag Brownlee.

  13. Andre 13

    About that idea of covid testing people before being allowed to board flights to NZ: there's been plenty of reasoned explanation why that's pointless, but here's the proof:


    • weka 13.1

      the point of testing before flying isn't to catch false negatives, it's to catch asymptomatic, presymptomatic, and low symptomatic positives and stop them getting on a plane with the virus with other people who don't have it. It's about lowering risk of transmission on planes*.

      There are compelling reasons not to test pre-flight, but they're around fairness for returning NZers, not ideas about perfection in testing.

      *I never saw the science on whether that would work mind.

  14. millsy 14

    Trump would have openly defended the practice of lynching is he was around during that era.

    It's going to be a bloodbath if he gets another term. I promise you that there will be progroms like you have never seen before during that time.

  15. Muttonbird 15

    Contrast this compensation payment for a workplace related incident with the compensation payment for tenants who had their front door stolen and positions damaged but their landlord. $20K vs 6K.

    Employment law strong. Tenancy law very, very weak.


    • Molly 15.1

      Having been through the Tenancy Tribunal recently, which resulted in a termination order for the tenants, the process was very balanced.

      The tribunal hearing made a judgement ONLY on the failure to pay rent.

      The fact that although the police told us to write down and record his abusive behaviour, and we had 20 pages of incidents and sound recordings as well as texts that took hours to collate, were not heard at the Tribunal. The mediator told us – do you want him out or not? When I replied yes, but surely it would be better for others if there is a record of his abusive behaviour? The mediator said – well, I have to give a termination order for unpaid rent, so I will. If I give a termination order for abusive behaviour – it will likely be overturned, so I suggest you just take the unpaid rent option and it's over.

      I am an advocate for fair treatment of people. Whether tenants or landlords. The experience of going through the Tribunal process – at the instigation of the tenant who didn't bother to turn up, makes me believe that the process is not as efficient or effective as it could be. It doesn't make me think that the process is slanted towards the landlords, if anything, it errs on the side of the tenant.

      The issue over compensation of two separate cases in two different areas of law, is a red herring.

      • weka 15.1.1

        My experience with the TT as a renter a long time ago was very good. I took the complaint because the landlord wouldn't return my bond. I got paid out because the landlord was unreasonable, treated the process without respect, and ignored the ruling the first time.

        I will say however that I prepared and presented really well, had good support, and have my middle class background that helps me read the room pretty well in situations like that. I can imagine the same set of circumstances going against a tenant up against a landlord who presented well and where the tenant didn’t.

        • Molly

          The process should work in such a way that whoever is at fault is found to be at fault, and asked to remediate or be fined accordingly. Whether they are landlord or tenant. The power imbalance regarding this relationship needs to be considered and I believe there are changes that could make this process much better. The use of a mediator before the hearing is set may be the answer, but we did not experience this for ourselves.

          (In our case, after awaiting mediator hearing by phone, the time and date for this session was interrupted by the police attending once again, as the tenant ran down the road in his underpants after taking his partner's phone as she didn't want to participate.)

          After ten days of the mediator trying to get back in touch with the tenant, we asked that it be moved on to the hearing, as the mediation process was going nowhere. But that may be the best avenue to addressing the power imbalance if done correctly.

          But the idea that all landlords are treating tenants badly, is not going to assist in resolving issues.

          • weka

            I agree. Mediation wasn't available when I went through that but it sounds like it would useful for many.

            it sounds like your situation was quite specific. I'm guessing most problems are things like bond not being returned, or tenant damaging property/not paying rent.

    • RedBaronCV 15.2

      Surely at the point where he removed the front door there would be a criminal offence of some thing like breaking and entering and dusting for finger prints on their stuff would confirm entry. Tenants are entitled to quiet enjoyment of the property whilst renting. His actions to me go beyond any civil offence – pretty similar to putting camera's on tenants.

      • Molly 15.2.1

        I haven't seen the article that Muttonbird refers to. He hasn't linked. But comparing the two issues, seems disingenious.

        In response to the camera issue, the police (who were almost always called by the tenant himself to sort out an argument between him and his partner), kept asking us to video record the tenant, which we refused to do.

        The police were ineffective with making us feel safe in our home, in a different landlord situation, the neighbours would have been in the same position, and they would have had to present at the hearing with the understanding that they may have to return home to live next door to the person they testified against.

        I don't think Muttonbird's comparison of two separate court rulings gives a reasonable perspective into tenancy rights.

        • RedBaronCV

          Ah I wasn't clear I was referring to the landlords who faced criminal charges after setting up cameras to record tenants in the rental – like in the shower – the perverted stuff.

          • Molly

            I don't know about that case, but given what you said, I agree that they should face criminal charges, whether landlord, flatmate or otherwise.

            The one grey links to below, shows the law working as it should. The landlord did not follow any of the responsibilities of a landlord and this was noted and he was fined accordingly.

            As an aside, that doesn't mean that the law at present is effective. The inability of the police to aid the tenants in this case, show that work needs to be done. (As neighbours, the police were equally ineffective and unable to assist, although they asked more than once for us to videotape the neighbours/tenants to help them with prosecution.)

            Strangely enough, one of the police issues was that our tenants had wilfully signed the tenancy agreement stating that neither of them was a minor. The male partner started ringing the police to evict his female partner from the flat saying that she was not a valid tenant.

            After several instances of this happening, I called the Tenancy Services who had to get back to me after checking with their legal team. Their advice: despite knowingly signing the agreement knowing the information to be false, the female tenant had all the rights of a tenant, BUT none of the liability. Once I informed the police of this, they stopped trying to get her to leave the property on the whim of her partner.

            It was only recently that I wondered: what if they both were under the age of 18 and knowingly signed the agreement stating they were not? What does that mean for any damages or rent arrears arising from a tenancy such as that?

            As for the original comment, it is just that I don't think that comparison between an employment issue, and a tenancy issue is useful in a conversation about tenancy rights and responsible renting practice.

        • Muttonbird

          I haven't seen the article that Muttonbird refers to. He hasn't linked. But comparing the two issues, seems disingenious.

          New rule. You don't have to now.

          • Molly

            It wasn't an argument against what you were saying. It was just a statement of fact, – I didn't know the case you were referring to.

            I still think comparing employment tribunal compensation against tenancy compensation is irrelevant, and misleading.

            Point out the tenancy laws that you believe are weak, and you will be sticking to the issue at hand.

          • Incognito

            The new rule is the same as the old rule: please provide a link if you want to improve the quality and flow of commentary here, especially when asked by other commenters. The bold font tends to be reserved for recidivist offenders and smart alecs.

  16. Karl Sinclair 16

    HOME SWEET HOME: Cheap affordable housing finally….. This could have such a major impact on poverty etc


    • housing is over priced
    • banks and companies make too much profit and are controlling the market
    • people are being shackled to debt
    • landlords want you renting not buying

    Potential Solution:

    • Affordable Prefab homes



    They are not made in NZ (materials etc overcharged in NZ), but hey it is a start.

    However, this is something to celebrate

    Good on ya Tony Houston, your a legend

    • Sabine 16.1

      We have a hole lot of kit set houses, tiny houses etc all 'made in NZ' and non of them is the issue.

      The high cost of housing in NZ is due to the high cost of land. And China can provide a box for 0.50NZD per pop if the patch of dirt you want to put the box on is 450.000$ plus you still don't have an affordable property.

      Repeat, the house has no value, its the land that carries the value.

      • Karl Sinclair 16.1.1

        Sabine, very good point about land cost

        Imagine, if land suddenly became available and affordable via the “magic wand” called zoning that local councils have. Allowing multiple small houses closely packed together.


        The cost of a plot can vary wildly depending on its location, as does the cost of actually having the property built. This starts from around $1,700 per square metre. $2,000-2,500 is more common, and $3,000 is what you should expect if you’re having something custom built.

        • Sabine

          are there any jobs near the affordable plots of land? Next quetsion.

          That too is a big part in the artificially created unaffordability housing saga of these fair lands.

          We have whole towns with empty houses, empty town centres and no one wants to move there as the only way of living there would be on Winz. And so as long as that is not even considered – and now the shovel ready jobs in construction are not really an incentive to move anywhere as these jobs are only temporary. Once the construction is over the jobs are gone. Mind one local may get to be a jantior or a school cook or a cleaner but even that is not good enough to get people to move there.

          So only looking at a cheap kitset house is faulty, as is looking only at the price of land.

          Repeat, houses can be cheap, but land in places with job opportunities is very expensive. Houses in areas with no jobs tend to be very very cheap, and yet they would still be too expensive while trying to make it on the benefit.

          So please don't pull up a paid advertisment for some realtors that would like to flock of some land in no–job country.

          • woodart

            the other part of this equation is that many of those cheap sections in empty towns come with a huge rates bill that would shock aucklanders who think their rates are high. someone needs to fund these provincial councils and it sure as hell isnt the surrounding farmers, who while watching their land values skyrocket, have mostly managed to keep their rates bill artificially low.

            • greywarshark

              No easy answer on housing. Central government could help by enabling small pockets of tiny houses that would be looked after well, gardens, covered outdoor areas, some rented some bought from Trusts as a form of saving, to be repaid from Trust when sold back. On transport, near shopping centre, schools. Carrying forward Schumacher's 'Small is Beautiful'. Local Councils funded to start similar.

              Get started, give people a place to be, help them with security of tenure, and able to join a group that helps others in similar housing communities – helping each other with shifting stuff, repairing stuff, and can call for assistance for themselves. Time bank stuff. Learn skills, resilience and support community with conviviality – nice word. Individuality within stable, good community – way to go.

  17. Dennis Frank 17

    A Horizon Research survey, commissioned for Helius Therapeutics and provided exclusively to Stuff, shows that the forces of legalisation and prohibition are neck and neck at 49.5 per cent each … Conducted between 20 and 25 August, the survey sampled over 1300 New Zealanders, and has a margin of error of 2.7 per cent.

    National voters remain strongly opposed with 83 per cent against the bill, while 58 per cent of ACT voters are now also against the change – possibly reflecting their higher polling. Green Party voters continue to strengthen their support with 94 per cent in favour; 61 per cent of Labour voters are in favour, as are 58 per cent of NZ First voters.


    • weka 17.1

      can't wait to see if the ALCP vote shifts to the Greens this year.

      • Dennis Frank 17.1.1

        Usually @ 1%, but every little bit helps. Goes to show the supposed liberality of the Nats is merely skin deep. Even NZF way more liberal!

        • greywarshark

          The problem for the Nats is that outbreak of liberally painting on slow-setting glue to their chairs. The poor dears are getting gradually more isolated and feeble as they expend their energy endeavouring to rise from their seats just to go to the toilet. The thought of changing anything to make the world a better place for other people, must be considered carefully because it would create a precedent for them, having done it once they will be expected to do it again. Exhausting, the responsibility on one! /sarc – for the feeble minded.

    • woodart 17.2

      any act voter in favour of continueing prohibition shows their complete hypocrisy. thought they were the party of small gov, personal freedom etc? expect nat voters to want the status quo, thats a conservative view, but thought act voters were cut from different cloth(yeah right)

    • Draco T Bastard 17.3

      while 58 per cent of ACT voters are now also against the change – possibly reflecting their higher polling.

      Which is probably reflecting that the new ACT voters are all ex-National.

  18. Sabine 18

    sorry dear beneficiaries but the government got a surplus to look at and besides you got a double heat payment and a 25NZD increase.


    Research from the Child Action Poverty Group shows incomes for all households receiving benefits and/or superannuation will drop by $63 a week for families and couples, and $41 a week for single adults.

    The Child Poverty Action Group (CPAG) and Auckland Action Against Poverty are both backing Agnes' call – CPAG researcher Janet McAllister said the payment had not doubled this year because of winter energy, but because of Covid.

    As was the 25NZD increase in the base benefit. Without covid non of these payments would have happened in the first place. Maybe that is something to think about?

    The chair of the government's own Welfare Expert Advisory Group, Cindy Kiro, said the welfare system simply wasn't working.

    "Whatever justification you want to use people to pay people who desperately need more money, more money is fine by me – you can call it a Covid wage extension, you can call it a Covid hardship extension – you can call it a 'summer' winter payment – I don't care what you call it."

    never mind the Minister has no issues with the poverty levels as they are, after all what would Carmel Sepuloni and hte Labour Party run on if not 'kinder gentler war on the poor'.

    Social Development Minister Carmel Sepuloni said there were no plans to keep the money going – but it wasn't the only boost beneficiaries had received as part of the government's $5 billion families package.

  19. Dennis Frank 19

    We're learning more about how the govt does regional development, thanks to Richard Harman.

    The decision to fund the Taranaki green school was made after warnings from Labour Ministers that it should not be funded and after Cabinet’s Economic Committee had rejected funding for it. POLITIK has learned that the funding decision came only after Greens co-leader, James Shaw, insisted that it be funded. https://www.politik.co.nz/2020/09/02/the-greens-ideological-tantrums/ | Politik

    Shaw said he was introduced to Rachel and Mike Perrett who have founded the school by New Plymouth mayor, Neil Holdom. Mike Perrett founded HRV, a nationwide heating and ventilating company and has plans to make the green schools global. Holdom is a strong supporter. “New Zealand has a long history of innovation and leadership and what the world needs now are more environmental entrepreneurs tackling the problems brought on by a rapidly growing population, unable or unwilling to mitigate its impact on our planet,” he said in July. “We need to support the Green School New Zealand team and help them transform their vision into reality in Taranaki, as a gift to our children.”

    Venture Taranaki also supported the school. Its CEO, Justine Gilliland, said the international education market was worth $51 million to Taranaki’s economy, “and by aligning our strengths with global demand, this could grow.” But none of this impressed the Labour and NZ First Ministers who approve funding like that for shovel ready projects.

    Who's guilty, then?

    Those projects were initially evaluated by Associate Finance Minister, David Parker; Finance Minister, Grant Robertson; Economic Development Minister, Phil Twyford and Regional Economic Development Minister, Shane Jones.

    The projects were then considered by the Cabinet Economic Committee chaired by Robertson and with 17 members including James Shaw and Eugenie Sage from the Greens. POLITIK understands that the Labour and New Zealand First Ministers on the committee refused to agree to fund going to the green school.

    So even though the regional heads in Taranaki were dead keen, the Labour/NZF ministers were dead against. So much for the credibility of coalition regional development policy. Ain't worth shit.

  20. Ad 20

    Looks like James Shaw just lost Gordon Campbell from Scoop.

    Given that Campbell used to run strategy for the Greens, it's a loss from an influential left commentator.


    • Robert Guyton 20.1

      Gordon Campbell reckons James' mistake "now risks alienating another Green constituency: teachers in state schools."

      I don't believe teachers are so highly-strung that they'll abandon the Green Party over this, especially given James' apology; teachers know to blame the behaviour, not the person.
      Nor do I think The Greens have lost the confidence and support of Gordon Campbell; he’s not flakey.

    • Campbell is great journalist, a solid fact-based leftie.

      Because of this I think perhaps he should read Dennis Frank's post above re the process that was taken to approve the (non-education budget) cash for the Green School.

      Shaw's opinion was supported by the Taranaki region (the mayor/Venture Taranaki) and qualified as a somewhat green, job rich and innovative shovel ready project.

      Shaw's small error of judgement needs to be contrasted with his solid support for Climate Change measures and for a Wealth Tax that will raise $7.9 billion annually to alleviate poverty. Context is everything.

      The media has targeted Shaw to try to get the Greens under 5%, as with Matiria Turei in 2017.

      • Robert Guyton 20.2.2

        Gordon Campbell's not a reactionary, with an axe to grind then use to give James Shaw the chop, as Ad appears to be.

      • Andre 20.2.3

        Thing is, the wealth tax is a solid turn-off to a segment of voters that might vote green.

        Shovelling a load of taxpayer money at an elitist eco-mysticism (lovely euphemism) private school is likely to be another solid turn-off to the same segment.

        Another big turn-off is the absence of anyone high on the list of the calibre and substance of the likes of Hague or Graham or Norman that give the impression of seeing ways to implement environmental improvement in the context of a modern, population-dense, technological society. Hell, even Gareth Hughes has pulled the pin. Genter and Sage are certainly solid in their areas of interest, but realistically they seem limited in range. Shaw seemed to have represented that aspect of green thought, but if it turns out he's fully on board with woo-woo …

        • Robert Guyton

          James Shaw did exceptional work on the Climate Change legislation; his skills were lauded near and far. It's difficult to see why you wouldn't consider that "environmental improvement in the context of a modern, population-dense, technological society."
          You last sentence seems nonsensical. Perhaps you too woo woo?

          • Andre

            I'm not ignoring it, it's part of the balance I'm considering, and that others I know consider. But it's only one factor and nowhere near enough on its own to outweigh a whole lot of negatives that are adding up.

            • Robert Guyton

              So you don't think James Shaw is someone, " high on the list of the calibre and substance of the likes of Hague or Graham or Norman that give the impression of seeing ways to implement environmental improvement in the context of a modern, population-dense, technological society.", as per your comment?

              • Andre

                I used to. But if he put it all on the line for the Green School after meeting the owners, as described in Harman's article, then I now really have serious doubts.

                • Robert Guyton

                  That seems very … light… of you.

                • weka

                  Jobs, green infrastructure instead of brown, lots of support from local council, those where the boxes ticked and it's pretty clear why Shaw was supportive. Looks to me like people are using the crystal workshop stuff as an excuse, because really it has nothing to do with the contract. Am still waiting for lefties to have a go at Māori for including woo in their education.

    • McFlock 20.3

      Given that Campbell used to run strategy for the Greens, it's a loss from an influential left commentator.

      Did Gordon Campbell do that as well as Andrew Campbell?

      • In Vino 20.3.1

        Are you insinuating that the quotation is baloney?

        (No response, so I thought I would accentuate the point. I myself don't remember Gordon Campbell being loudly connected to the Greens..)

        • McFlock

          I was at the pub.

          The quote was an opinion that Ad said was notable because of the author's position. I don't know the author's CV, but do know AC was in a position that fits the description.

          I tend to agree with Robert, though – the cockup caused a rucus, but I doubt the ripples will last until the election.

    • weka 20.4

      GC seems to be conflating the govt with the Greens. What's the GP involvement in the DHB decisions been?

    • sumsuch 20.5

      Shaw made a mistake, the Greens concentrate on what matters most, just not great sellers of it. Not for a millisecond will I put aside helping the neediest as the Greens promise, unlike Labour.

  21. greywarshark 21

    Bohemian sort of Rhapsody about Covid-19 – Clever


  22. Tricledrown 22

    More pork Theisen employed by a GOP superpac telling more porkies on behalf of Trump.He is not a journalist merely writes propaganda opinion pieces every 2 weeks in the Washington post.

    Reply button not working sorry.

  23. Robert Guyton 23

    Oh! Classic put-down in the House just now, of Judith Collins by Grant Robertson!

    "A coalition is a little bit like a marriage, you can’t control everything your partner does."
    Judith fumed.

  24. bwaghorn 24

    She mustn't have seen the Robinson had his eye brows raised.

  25. millsy 25

    Had Shaw not funded the green school or whatever it is, we would be subject to barrage after barrage of press releases condemning him for being 'ideologically opposed to private education', 'beholden to the teachers unions', 'a watermelon' and so on.

    The guy couldn't win here.

    • Robert Guyton 25.1

      The guy will win here.

      • In Vino 25.1.1

        Given the ghastly, pathetic polemic strung together by Newshub 6pm News tonight, I think you might be right, Robert.

        What discerning Green-voter would be influenced by that?

        • Robert Guyton

          Nice to hear that from you, In Vino (veritas).

          • Robert Guyton

            "The James Shaw political pile-on is off the charts after Newshub revealed he strong-armed ministerial colleagues to get funding for the controversial privately-owned Taranaki Green School." (My bold/James' bold!)

            "Strong-armed" – James Shaw! Go James. Deploy that strong arm of yours! On your ministerial colleagues! It's the Green Way!!!! KAPOW!!!

            • greywarshark

              How come that loony managed to break James' eye socket when he punched him? James you bruiser, we need you at the gym keeping up those fitness upper-body building tactics – get that strong-arm going – Now.

      • greywarshark 25.1.2


        Jane Patterson RNZ Political Editor here having her dig at Shaw so she can be in sync with all the other excited, outraged etc. journos.

        She's turned nautical: Power Play – This time last election James Shaw captained the Green Party through the stormy waters after Metiria Turei's dramatic resignation – now he's in danger of capsizing the ship himself.

        I remember a pleasure boat filled with happy holidaymakers tuning turtle while tied at the wharf, USA I think. There was a great loss of life. The reason – something of interest appeared on one side – everyone rushed to see it – the boat tipped over. If the Right manage to catch people's idle minds with this squawking about green education, private, etc the whole election could sink.

        It's time for all true Greens to stand by their leader, stay away from the controversy, largely stay schtum, and remember that the Greens have been trying for many elections to get stuff done. James was elected to try a new approach so all you austere, lean, outdoor types have been relatively unsuccessful. STFU now, show your intelligence and restraint, and get done what is available. Once the green education thing gets going, it could be fine-tuned to face the right direction. So don't stymie a positive change that they have agreed to in Taranaki.

        At present there are too many chiefs and not enough Indians.

  26. bwaghorn 26

    Millsy he wouldnt have lost any votes though,Although you would have to be a real far weather green if you used this as an excuse to not vote green .

  27. Robert Guyton 27

    Chris Hipkins' contribution to the final debate was great story-telling that should be enjoyed by all:

    General Debate, video 12.

  28. mosa 28

    150 hours of community service for viciously beating an animal does nothing to send the message that animals do feel pain and fear and that their lives really do mean nothing when the offender is slapped with a " wet bus ticket "

  29. sumsuch 29

    Reading early comments here, immediate matters no longer matter. Longer views are the new immediate politics.

    Aren't we all tired of what appears on the Front Page? Expected to get excited about passing shit.

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  • Support for innovative Pacific education responses to COVID-19 needs
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  • Crown will not appeal Dodds v Southern Response decision
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  • Crucial PGF investments for Northland
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  • $27million investment in global vaccine facility
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  • Government backing Māori landowners
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  • PGF makes Māori history more accessible
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  • Making it official: The journey of te reo Māori | Kia whakapūmautia: Ngā piki me ngā heke o te r...
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  • District Court judge appointed
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