Open mike 02/04/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, April 2nd, 2013 - 173 comments
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Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

173 comments on “Open mike 02/04/2013”

  1. Jenny 1

    With their latest legislation to restrict the rights of protest around mining and drilling, National has declared open season on the environment and environmentalists.

    It all adds up.

    This government is waging open warfare on the environment

    From weakening the Resource Management Act

    To withdrawing from Kyoto

    To downsizing Doc

    For all their numerous big and small other assaults on the environment up and down the country.

    This is clearly a government in the pocket of the polluters, on whose behalf they are waging this undeclared war.

    Have the National Party got a mandate for this war?

    No they haven’t

    Time for all the opposition parties to call a public rally on the steps of parliament to oppose the legislation scrapping the final last remaining level of environmental protection, the right for the public to effectively protest against the actions of the polluters and the wreckers.

    Come on you guys. Do you want to win the next election or not?

    • Ennui 1.1

      Years back environmentalists etc predicted that as resources such as water became scarce there would be a greater grab for the public domain by private capital, alongside a stronger resistance to these grabs. The corollary was that private interests via their own agencies or the state would do their utmost to ensure that resistance was squashed….hence 1 year inside, or $100,000 fines for doing a Lucy Lawless.

  2. karol 2

    So, the game of chess continues. Rio Tinto has turned down the government’s offer of short term help to get over the current problem. Rio Tinto say they want a longer term deal from the government. What a bunch of leeches. They want to bleed kiwi tax payers indefinitely in order to protect their desired profit margin.

    But Prime Minister John Key told Newstalk ZB’s Mike Hosking that the company came back over the weekend to turn down the offer made by the Government, saying they wanted a longer term deal than the Government was prepared to offer.

    Key admitted it was possible the issue would not be sorted out.

    “In the end, that will leave Rio Tinto with their contract,” he said.

    “They will pay more than they otherwise would for that period of time, and then there would be some sort of phase-down of the smelter. That’s definitely a possibility.”

    Why is the PM releasing this info on Newstalk ZB?

    PS: No, that is just where the NZH got their info. It was also disclosed on Firstline this morning, and possibly elsewhere.

    Labour’s state-owned enterprises spokesperson Clayton Cosgrove says Rio Tinto has the Government “bent over a barrel”.
    “They were warned about this by analysts,” he said on Firstline this morning.
    “They were told that if they didn’t tie down the Rio Tinto issue before proceeding to sell Mighty River Power, that the trap would be sprung. The trap has been sprung, and the Government is all over the place.”

    Mr Cosgrove says Rio Tinto executives will be “licking their lips” over the Government’s handling of the issue.
    “All the cards are, of course, in Rio Tinto’s hands because the Government has said [it will sell state-owned power companies] come hell or high water, regardless of the risks.”

    • Ennui 2.1

      Rio Tinto have the perfect negotiating position: they dont really care short term because the whole market is shaky, price may collapse. As a consequence, they will demand all sorts of unrealistic deals because they have nothing to lose short term: NZ however see this as a big loss. Its a little blip on RTs books..

  3. ianmac 3

    “Why is the PM releasing this info on Newstalk ZB?”
    Leaking of the leeches?

    And in the Herald:
    “Rio Tinto has rejected the Government’s offer to subsidise the Tiwai Point Aluminium Smelter power bill……..”
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10874850

    • Morrissey 3.1

      Why is the PM releasing this info on Newstalk ZB?

      NewstalkZB is the semi-official state broadcaster.

      Interestingly, one of its slogans is “Fair and Balanced.” And, yes, that’s also the Fox News slogan.

  4. karol 4

    The Green Party took time out yesterday to have a laugh on themselves, and send up the stereotype of the party peddled by many in the MSM and beyond. In the form of a press release on employment law proposals, it ends:

    Proposed additional statutory holidays

    March 24: Look after the environment day (all)
    April 16 – Rebirth the Earth (Catherine Delahunty)
    May 5 – Buy local, Eat local day (Eugenie Sage)
    May 11: Bob Marley’s commemoration day (all)
    June 20: Love your cycle (not in a dirty way) day (Julie Anne Genter)
    July 12: Bigger words are better day (Kennedy Graham/Eugenie Sage)
    September 20: Dave’s dancing day (David Clendon)
    October 11: Dolphin love day (Gareth Hughes)
    April 1: April’s fool’s day (all)

    All days would be Mondayised or Fridayised as appropriate

    • Rosie 4.1

      LOL, go The Greens! Being able to have a laugh at oneself shows humility and that’s a quality that would be good to see more of in our main opposition party. (not to mention fire in the belly, unity, strong leadership and direction but thats all been said before).

      Sad that the hippy dippy stereotype still prevails after all this time. That clueless buffoon Jesse Mulligan (God only knows why he calls himself a comedian) made a fool of himself on 7 Days when he lampooned The Green Party many episodes ago now. No one else on the panel laughed. It was like they had moved on from the stereotype and he hadn’t. He was also quite patronising towards Mojo Mathers when she was a guest on the show. He was shouting at her. Oh dear. It’s not helpful that someone so ignorant has a role in the media.

  5. Has the Solid Energy board gone rogue?

    I was having a squiz at the batch of Treasury papers that were released and there was this one containing a comment that the board thought that Solid Energy’s current strategy was appropriate and that “a retail-based IPO for Solid Energy is not the appropriate way forward”.

    Are they saying that Solid Energy should not be sold off? I wonder what the Minister thinks?

  6. Draco T Bastard 6

    The veil of deception over money

    This paper from the Real World Economics Review argues that we are being intentionally and systematically mislead about the nature of money and about the role of central banks and commercial banks in the monetary system.

    Understanding our monetary system is vital for all people.

    • Ennui 6.1

      Counter party obligations, bundled securities, rehypothecated debt, repackaged derivatives, debt obligations, etc etc etc. We should understand but the language deliberately obscures understanding. Joe Average (aka me and my greater circle of acquaintances) don’t stand a snow balls chance in Hell of keeping up to speed on the language of fraud (aka finance). Jokey Hen by comparison seems to have either been the author of the terms or to have known the person/s responsible well.

      • Draco T Bastard 6.1.1

        IMO, Once understanding of the basics is known then picking out the BS becomes easier. And the paper linked to is about the basics – how money is actually formed.

        • aerobubble 6.1.1.1

          National keeps hammering home how the Greens want to print money, I mean, the nerve of the Green party to use government to manage the money supply for the good of the people. Even as the partial downgrading of the ability of banks to prime the gearing levers in the housing sector. National want it both ways, and Labour just keep letting them off. Now the attack is on the speaker for not holding ministers to account, geez, if Labour had real pertinent penetrating questions that unbalanced the govt benches you can be damn sure the govt would be answering them. Its in the interests of govt to have a balanced open debating forum, and to keep the debate from uncovering their deceptions. Money is controlled by the people, for the people and of the people (govt), how hard is that for Labour to get out and say????

          Look at farming, capital gains exemption has left farmers in debt and running into regular droughts and floods without a lifeboat (as govt won’t do anything since the market will provide farmers with the incentives to change, like water rights for 35 years that make it uneconomic to invest in farm dams!!!). So whose actually looking after farmers, and citizens? Not National, not Labour.

          • Colonial Viper 6.1.1.1.1

            Labour doesn’t want to be seen as supporting unorthodox monetary policy (even though the G7 is already printing money as fast as they can). Too socialist. Might scare the capitalist market horses.

            Fun fact: since the GFC started, the world’s major central banks have printed an additional US$10T of money into the world economy. For all the good it’s done the ordinary citizen.

            • muzza 6.1.1.1.1.1

              $10T – just the printing ? Does that figure include the TARP schemes, Bond purchases, bail outs etc?

              Expect the number to be magnificantly higher than that!

              • Rob

                So that is the saliant point $10 trillion printed and released and for what.

                • muzza

                  $10T, could be used to provide life sustaining/enhancing systems, for most of the underprivileged, in any part of the world they happen to be!

                  But it went to propping up balance sheets, capital ratios, margin calls, and bonus payments, while preventing the house of cards from collapse! – $10T can support huge amounts of leveregded transactions, and thats what most of the money has been used for!

                  Meanwhile the global derivatives, commodities, and equities markets , forge ahead with scant regards!!!

                  • Colonial Viper

                    $10T can support huge amounts of leveregded transactions, and thats what most of the money has been used for!

                    Indeed, $10T in base money probably turned into US$500T in leveraged financial mechanisms and associated debt.

      • Colonial Viper 6.1.2

        DTB is quite right. Bullshit baffles brains. The thing that TPTB absolutely resist is simplification of the system. They need more and more layers of complexity in order to play their money/debt/obligation shuffling games.

        If we were to stick with the basics it would be around:
        – Fulfilling of fiduciary duty.
        – Sourcing debt free, non interest bearing money.
        – Making banking absolutely boring and basic, aimed at the needs of the real economy.

        But in a situation like that, the big finance banking types couldn’t justify their $5M salaries.

        As for cutting through the financial BS, Max Keiser on youtube is excellent. As is Kyle Bass:

        • muzza 6.1.2.1

          You can apply the same to the legal systems!

          • Ugly Truth 6.1.2.1.1

            The financial system and the legal system both use alternative representations (persons) for the people they deal with. Their systems are paper based, and the alternative representation is a name written in ALL CAPS. This representation has been called a nom-de-guerre, or war name. The enforcers for this system, here and in England, also use military titles (constable & seargant).

            • muzza 6.1.2.1.1.1

              Yes, its unfortunate that you have attracted so much heat from commentators here, although it seeks to illustrate the trouble NZ is in, when the supposed *more thoughful* types, attack information which attempts to explain how the fraud is possible, via the legal/judicial systems which NZ is controlled by.

              Same owners of the financial systems of course, but thats not something which people want to hear about!

              • The good ship status quo doesn’t turn on a dime, muzza. Hopefully everyone involved can put ego aside long enough to think about the points being raised.

    • Recommended viewing on the Federal Reserve from a mainstream source

    • Draco T Bastard 6.4

      BBC admitted their video “How do Banks Work?” was misleading

      but at last it resulted in BBC admitting that the video “left a misleading impression of how banks in fact work, and of the impact of the working of banks on the economy at large.” and the video was removed from the website.

      Seems to have been a long process to get the BBC to admit that they were wrong.

  7. Ennui 7

    Saw this on Open Mike big brother and the screw cru

    The new fascist credit sharing of your info with the biggest parasites in the finance industry you know the ones 40 years ago who use to repo your car at ten at night or before you went to work in the morning usually with a large persuader in the form of a wrestler or someone for hire with no name got the picture
    These thugs now are respectable legal and powerful and who knows who they will be able to swap your credit history to….

    A year ago I was not allowed to pay rego on my scooter because I had no warrant….being slack I left it off the road. Rego bills appeared, attempts to pay were rejected. I remained resolutely slack.

    Next thing: Dun & Bradstreet letter demands money with menaces to my credit worthiness. So I was able to pay. Somehow the cash had now become acceptable despite the other regulations.

    More importantly it raised some very basic questions about my role as a citizen and my relationship to the state. Who out there feels some degree of dis-ease that the state gives your “debt” to them to a private contractor who makes commercial threats against you?

  8. Seti 8

    Do the current crime stats just released, which show the lowest level of recorded offences in 24 years, indicate more people are happy with their lot?

    • Chris73 8.1

      Good news for National…not so good for Labour

      • aerobubble 8.1.1

        No. Youth just realizes that a criminal record means you cannot travel, and given the way the country is run, they need the ability to.

      • If crime has been reduced why the hell would you think that is bad news for Labour. ?
        You bloody Tories are a strange nasty lot .zs a Labour Party member I find that remark most offensive.
        Any way if anyone believes that crime is reduced they will believe anything. the violence in our present society is rapidly rising regardless of what the
        Tory press tell. Just look at the reported acts of violence reported each week.

    • karol 8.2

      The number of “recorded” crimes dropped. Depends if they got stricter/more lax in which crimes were recorded.

      Murders went up – it’s hard not to record a murder, though there is fuzzy territory for how some deaths are classified.

      PS: note this:

      Post-quake Canterbury was one of the few regions to post an increase in crime, with figures showing a 5.6 per cent rise in general crime.

      Acting Commissioner Viv Rickard said the figures reflected front-line police work.

      ie indicates stats went up because police were more vigilant in pursuing and recording reported crimes.

    • lprent 8.3

      Or amount of recording has reduced as traditionally happens under National as they steadily erode the ability of police to effectively deal with any crime.

      It was pointless telling the police about most petty crimes in the 1990s because they didn’t do anything with it. The only reason that anyone did was because the insurance companies insisted. Oh and now the ever increasing cost of insurance is reducing the number of people having it.

      Look at the serious violence crimes and see the picture change. And that will be despite a aging population that is steadily reducing the crime rate, just as it is in every developed country.

      You really are a stupid pissant – relying on total figures without looking at the detail.

      • Chris73 8.3.1

        Relying on total figures when it suits National: Bad
        Relying on total figures when it suits Labour: Good

        • Te Reo Putake 8.3.1.1

          Wow, devasting putdown of your own strawman, Chris. Did you spend all of Easter working this epic effort up?

          • chris73 8.3.1.1.1

            Well it wasn’t a put down more so a statement.

            Like crimes figures are down so the left say its due to non-reporting.
            John Key won’t give extra subsidies to rio tinto (and we all know you lefties lurve subsidies to foreign companies) and you lefties will (probably) say hes doesn’t care about jobs.

            • McFlock 8.3.1.1.1.1

              Actually, a lot of the folk here argued that Tiwai should be closed based on emissions, lower energy costs for the rest of the country, and that subsidy argument you just brought up. I’m one of the few against that on the grounds of the massive harm to Southland should it shut. But even then I’m not in favour of subsidies to Rio Tinto. No real reason against nationalisation, given its regional importance.

              • geoff

                No real reason against nationalisation, given its regional importance.

                It’s a profitless export business, apart from saving jobs why on earth would you nationalise it?

                • McFlock

                  Profitless? I doubt that the energy subsidy is all that is between Tiwai and bankruptcy, but I’m open to correction on that score.

                  It’s a classic value-added industry – import raw material, smelt into higher quality material, export. And the employment injects income into a rural centre so the money flows back through the country into the financial centres.

                  • geoff

                    Rod Oram says that the big picture is that China is rapidly developing its aluminium smelting, with new efficient smelters that Tiwai Point could never compete with unless you spent oodles of money. Rio Tinto is trying to flog off all of its old smelters (like Tiwai Point) because they can’t make money from them.
                    Rio Tinto can’t make money from it but you think if NZ owned it then we could??

        • lprent 8.3.1.2

          Show an instance of me doing it?

          Otherwise you’re really just farting from the fingers yet again with yet another silly myth.

          • chris73 8.3.1.2.1

            Show an instance of me doing it?

            – Sure of course, I’ll just scrawl through the entire back catalogue of The Standard just to find an instance of where lprent showed double standards towards John Key.

            Then after I’ve posted it you’ll probably reply with something along the lines of “you got it wrong”

            Yeah I’ll just do that

      • Seti 8.3.2

        Look at the serious violence crimes and see the picture change. And that will be despite a aging population that is steadily reducing the crime rate, just as it is in every developed country.

        You really are a stupid pissant – relying on total figures without looking at the detail.

        I did look at the detail, did you?

        In the last year –
        Homicide and related offences, down 18.1%
        Acts intended to cause injury (violence), down 3.4%

        Total offences 2010, 2011, 2012 –
        Homicide and related offences – 97; 83; 68, down 30%
        Acts intended to cause injury, last 3 years – 44,515; 42,278; 40,851, down 8.2%

        Since National elected in 2008 to 2012 –
        Homicide and related offences, down 33%
        Acts intended to cause injury, down 3%

        Whose the stupid pissant now?

        • chris73 8.3.2.1

          Don’t bother, someone will just say its either:

          A. More people are reporting crimes (so nothing to do with National)

          or

          B. People aren’t reporting crimes (so everything to do with National)

          Depending on the situation

        • karol 8.3.2.2

          Interesting that “murder and related offences” went down (by 15 offences), while the number of murders went up by 3.

          There’s not only the issue of (under)reporting but differences in what is recorded. From the above linked article:

          A departure in recent years from the way police report domestic violence has lead to a reduction in recorded domestic violence offences.

          “Assaults in dwellings most commonly occur between family members,” Rickard said.

          “Police now have the ability to issue PSOs – Police Safety Orders.

          “These enforce a cool-down period by providing temporary separation of parties in domestic situations where police believe there is a risk of escalation to serious violence.

          In 2012 police issued 10,064 PSOs – up nearly 40 per cent on the number of PSOs delivered in 2011.

          Burlary stats went down, and car thefts. However, if people are not insured, they are less likely to report burglaries.

          These kinds of things will also be impacted by the willingness of police to pursue and/or record the matter:

          Theft and related offences dropped by 11.8 per cent (15,966 offences). This category makes up approximately one third of all recorded offences.

          – Nationally, there were 2917 fewer stolen vehicles than the previous year – a drop of 14.1 per cent. Thefts from cars reduced by 15.8 per cent.

          – Property damage and environmental pollution offences fell by 5.9 per cent.

          • muzza 8.3.2.2.1

            Burlary stats went down, and car thefts. However, if people are not insured, they are less likely to report burglaries.

            I experienced first hand a situation, where an intruder was inside a property, a call placed to the police, the response was, *sorry you will have to make an appointment*, 48 hours.

            When it was repeated there was someone in the house, same answer – 48 hours!

    • muzza 8.4

      Nothing about the crimes being committed against the populace by the government then!

  9. Northshoreguynz 9

    Check out the lead in paint link before starting to apportion votes.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/07/violent-crime-lead-poisoning-british-export

  10. ropata 10

    US monetary shenanigans summarised : Sundown in America

    Related: Gallery of economic Villains and Heroes

    Capitalism is fscked.

  11. johnm 11

    Banks threaten to increase repossessions as Irish mortgage crisis deepens

    ‘A massive property bubble prior to 2008, brought on by the speculative activities of the banks and encouraged by low tax rates, contributed significantly to the financial collapse five years ago. Since then, the austerity policies implemented by the political elite have shifted the burden of the crisis onto the backs of working people. ‘

    http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/04/01/irel-a01.html

    • Colonial Viper 11.1

      Iceland told the banksters and bondholders to take a leap off a cliff. Their economy is recovering. Greece didn’t, and went along with the plans of the banksters and bondholders.

      Guess how Greece are going in comparison.

      http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-04-01/iceland-vs-greece-pick-winner

      • Populuxe1 11.1.1

        And yet kind of ignoring that the Financial Supervisory Authority of Iceland used emergency legislation to take over the domestic operations of the three largest banks, the IMF Stand-By-Arrangement since November 2008, and Iceland’s application to join the EU in 2009 which was a big factor in restoring international confidence. Currency devaluation effectively reduced wages by 50% making exports more competitive and imports more expensive. Iceland is not the fantasy some people keep trying to sell it as.

        • Colonial Viper 11.1.1.1

          Did I say that there wasn’t hard work and sacrifice involved mate? But at least in the case of Iceland, they charted their own path, pissed off a whole lot of bondholders, and have made it to the other side.

  12. Names have power and they create context and connection that is why I support the changing of the names of the bland and ridiculous ‘North’ and ‘South’ Islands of this country. The fact that the names are not official just shows the idiocy of keeping them. And I don’t support the NZGB’s idea of “that either the English name or the Māori name, or both names together could be used as official.” I say, “FFS just change the names into ‘Te Ika-a-Māui’ (for the North Island) and ‘Te Waipounamu’ (for the South Island). Who in their right mind is attached to ‘North’ and ‘South’ – it is completely bogus and an insult to Māori.”

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/AK1304/S00022/alternative-naming-for-north-south-islands.htm

    http://mars2earth.blogspot.co.nz/2013/04/just-change-nothing-names.html

    • muzza 12.1

      Very right Marty – Why would they not be renamed, is the question.

      What might renaming the island alter in the legal sense?

      There has been little to no contention, (w(h)anganui aside), about the maori naming etc of various locations in NZ, country included, but the North/South Island, seem to the *outside* the conversation!

      • marty mars 12.1.1

        indeed muzza and considering that north and south are not official names is interesting, perhaps more evidence (if it is needed) of the illegitimacy of the colonisation process considering that “on 21 May 1840, Lieutenant-Governor Hobson proclaimed sovereignty over the South Island by discovery”.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Waitangi

        • muzza 12.1.1.1

          If a lie is told, or a fraud committed, the actions thereafter, become focused on hiding the original lie/fraud. Assuming the truth did not come to light, and all lie/fraud related activities , unwound…

          What you end up with, is NZ!

      • Ugly Truth 12.1.2

        Names indicate the character of things, so Māori names for the islands would imply Māori pre-eminence over the land. Arguably this is appropriate since Māori have historical pre-eminence.

    • Draco T Bastard 12.2

      I say, “FFS just change the names into ‘Te Ika-a-Māui’ (for the North Island) and ‘Te Waipounamu’ (for the South Island).

      Would that be changing the names or just giving their rightful names back?

      • marty mars 12.2.1

        + 1 Very true Draco

      • Daveosaurus 12.2.2

        The reaction would be entertaining to watch from a safe distance… just look at how the racist fringe resident in Whanganui have been reacting to a simple fixing up of a spelling mistake!

        • Populuxe1 12.2.2.1

          It’s not a spelling mistake, it’s a travesty of linguistic colonisation. The Ngāti Hau dialect doesn’t have the ‘f’ pronunciation of ‘wh’, therefore the original spelling was perfectly correct phonetically. The so-called “official” standardised Te Reo was originally the version noted down by Professor Samuel Lee working with Hongi Hika and therefore is essentially Ngapuhi. Similarly the Kāi Tahu dialect of the South Island mostly gets ignored except for Aoraki.

        • joe90 12.2.2.2

          >The reaction would be entertaining to watch from a safe distance… just look at how the racist fringe resident in Whanganui have been reacting to a simple fixing up of a spelling mistake!

          They were here, all thirty six of them.

        • Arfamo 12.2.2.3

          Whanganui (when pronounced funganui) is now a common pronunciation mistake. But never mind. Iwi let go of their dialect for the sake of a standard spelling, water under the bridge. Sometimes wonder if the river’s getting back at them via the sewage treatment plant 🙂

          Only problem I have with Te-ika-a-Maui and Te Waipounamu as names is they’re a 6 and 5 syllable mouthful and will get mispronounced horribly.

          • karol 12.2.2.3.1

            Still might be an improvement on “seff illan” and “nuff illan”

            • Arfamo 12.2.2.3.1.1

              Ika (NI) and Pounamu (SI) will be fine by me. But what do we call Stewart Is?

              • Arfamo

                (BTW, most the people I know currently call them “The Naw Thighland”, and “The Sow Thighland”, especially TV newsreaders. 🙂 )

              • Populuxe1

                Rakiura, obviously.

          • Draco T Bastard 12.2.2.3.2

            They’re not hard to pronounce. That said, I think the way Wikipedia has Te Wai Pounamu is probably easier. I don’t know which is the actual correct way or even if there is such a thing.

            • Colonial Weka 12.2.2.3.2.1

              Many people do have trouble pronouncing the ‘ou’ sound correctly. Many Kiwis can’t even pronounce ‘te’ correctly.

    • ropata 12.3

      Te Ika-a-Maui or Nigel ?
      🙂

    • The Al1en 12.4

      Like separatist flag flying on the the harbour bridge, these are just modern day beads and blankets.
      I’m surprised you keep falling for it.

      I reckon, instead of looking for whites under the bed and seeing insults where there are none, you should focus on getting rid of the Maori party collaborators that have done so much harm to Maoridom over the past four and a bit years.

      • marty mars 12.4.1

        fank you 🙂

        • marty mars 12.4.1.1

          Oh dear I missed my spelling mistake 🙂

          • The Al1en 12.4.1.1.1

            “fank you

            Oh dear I missed my spelling mistake”

            I’d guessed as much 😉 😆

        • The Al1en 12.4.1.2

          Change the names or don’t, I’m not bothered either way, but if you think it makes up for a great outrage and insult, then I hope you get your want.
          But the MP are still there, supporting Key all the way to a third term.

          • marty mars 12.4.1.2.1

            I wouldn’t worry too much about the MP they will receive their justice at election time and I’m working quite hard to ensure that happens.

            I wonder how you would feel if the name of your country of birth was changed from England to New Paris for instance – I’m sure you would huff and puff quite a bit. Everytime NZ is used it is a slap in the face to tangata whenua who should be equal in this country. And as for the north and south bit – well you tell me what it means – they only have context in relation to themselves as in north or south of what? and in my mind are quite meaningless and insulting.

            • The Al1en 12.4.1.2.1.1

              “I wouldn’t worry too much about the MP they will receive their justice at election time and I’m working quite hard to ensure that happens.”

              Good on’ya, as the locals say. Shitty self serving politicians are a huge insult in any culture.

              ” Everytime NZ is used it is a slap in the face to tangata whenua who should be equal in this country.”

              It isn’t a slap, and to me, you already are my equal, just like everyone else is.

              “And as for the north and south bit – well you tell me what it means – they only have context in relation to themselves as in north or south of what? and in my mind are quite meaningless and insulting.”

              I’m not sure how you reconcile the insult as you see it, the stealing of your place names, with the insult to generations of New Zealanders by dismissing even the mention of joint names of equal status, crapping all over it so to speak.
              That’s an Achilles heel dressed in the short skirt of reconciliation if ever I saw one.

              You can call anything you like what you want, but I doubt very much it will improve the outcomes of tens of thousands of Maori one little bit.

              • there is no insult by calling the islands their rightful names – that is idiotic and shows you don’t really understand much about it – try some reading on reality before you put your oar in mate.

                • The Al1en

                  “there is no insult by calling the islands their rightful names – that is idiotic and shows you don’t really understand much about it – try some reading on reality before you put your oar in mate.”

                  You do that a lot, tanty throw your position.

                  I will, one time, de-construct my post so you understand it, then after that, if you’ve nothing to offer, I’ll leave you to your revolution.

                  The insult is not in using the original names, but the denial of millions of New Zealander’s to use names they have long used (uninterrupted occupation by word, if you will) on an equal footing, by not accepting joint names, is.

                  It’s the Achilles heel to your argument.
                  Simple as that.

                  • I actually already know what your point is and I care not for it so I’ll just keep tantying on.

                    • The Al1en

                      I believe you think you know my point, which isn’t the same thing, but if you’re happy, it’s not my job to bring you down.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    Tell me, when was the last time that you heard of Taranaki being referred to as Mt Egmont?

                    IIRC, there was a bit of a huff from some of the more excitable but it died down quite rapidly and everyone just started calling the mountain Taranaki. I think you’ll find the same to be true of Ti Ika-A-Maui and Te Wai Pounamu.

                    • The Al1en

                      Never have heard Taranaki called by it’s other official name, but I wouldn’t be outraged and insulted if I did.

                      I don’t think there’s any credibility in denying joint naming, and agree somewhat perversely enough on a left wing site to, as you point out, let the market decide the outcome.

                    • interestingly on the tour the other day when I described how you could sometimes see Mt Taranaki an older gentlemen said, what about Egmont? I said the times they are a changing.

            • Colonial Weka 12.4.1.2.1.2

              “they only have context in relation to themselves as in north or south of what? ”

              They also have historical context, and therein lies the problem. Removing the names will upset people in the same way that your example of England to New Paris would.

              I take your point about the insult to Maori though. I’m not sure what the solution is exactly, but am pretty sure that those of pakeha middle NZ who might otherwise be in a process of change re Maori rights, would be put off by being told to stop using ‘South Island’ and “North Island’ because they are bland and meaningless.

              • “those of pakeha middle NZ who might otherwise be in a process of change re Maori rights”

                The problem is this incremental change is not really happening imo. Māori have to fight for every scrap of concession and that just isn’t good enough. Middle NZ will continue to focus on their positions and that is the way of it. If it was up to me I’d change all the names back to their Māori names, have an extensive education program to create connection for people about the context of the names and why they are called what they are called, and instigate compulsory te reo Māori classes for everyone living here, or wanting to come here. Those measures would make this country a better place for tangata whenua and everyone else and bind us together much tighter and in more meaningful ways that occurs or is even considered today.

                I don’t see the double naming not happening, so the majority will decide and they will decide without real consideration of Māori – that’s the country we live in.

                • The Al1en

                  “If it was up to me I’d change all the names back to their Māori names, have an extensive education program to create connection for people about the context of the names and why they are called what they are called, and instigate compulsory te reo Māori classes for everyone living here, or wanting to come here. Those measures would make this country a better place for tangata whenua and everyone else and bind us together much tighter and in more meaningful ways that occurs or is even considered today.”

                  😆 Like everyone speaking English has made all our lives better.
                  You may as well wait a few years ’til they have the numbers and learn mandarin or cantonese instead.

                  • Colonial Weka

                    Compulsory Maori lessons

                    Compulsory English lessons

                    Compulsory Cantonese/Mandarin lessons when the Chinese have the numbers

                    Which of these is not like the others?

                    • The Al1en

                      “Which of these is not like the others?”

                      I can’t speak or write any of them properly, how would I know? Best you tell me.

                      I do actually think an induction series for new arrivals is a great idea, and mentioned it in a mail I wrote to Hone last year. Don’t know if it’s part of mana’s policy yet.

                    • Colonial Weka

                      In the context of your previous comment, English and the Chinese languages were/will be tools of colonisation. Marty’s suggestion of compulsory Maori is a restitution of a colonisation process, it’s not a colonisation process itself despite how some pakeha may feel.

                    • The Al1en

                      “Marty’s suggestion of compulsory Maori is a restitution of a colonisation process, it’s not a colonisation process itself despite how some pakeha may feel.”

                      Non Maori don’t need to be compelled to learn a language they have no use for, but if some have a genuine urge to learn it, then sure, assist them to do so, by all means.
                      I don’t think many in NZ would complain about dual labelling and signage like used in Canada, and if Maori have words for things like baked beans with cocktail sausages, then all well and good, but compulsory just won’t fly.

                      “In the context of your previous comment, English and the Chinese languages were/will be tools of colonisation.”

                      I get pendulums swinging back the other way before a state of balance, but there are fights worth having right now that will effect better rights and conditions for all of us, especially Maori as they are sadly represented in poverty figures. Forcing new kiwis to learn Maori is not one one of them.

                    • They would have a use for it – that is the point. And as for the poverty figures ummm maybe they might need some teachers of the compulsory language thus reducing unemployment for Māori, and perhaps other negative social statistics might be reduced as recognition of the importance of indigenous rights takes hold – there are lots of ancillary benefits for the country. Try not to be so one-dimensional because the word compulsory is used.

                    • The Al1en

                      “And as for the poverty figures ummm maybe they might need some teachers of the compulsory language thus reducing unemployment for Māori, and perhaps other negative social statistics might be reduced as recognition of the importance of indigenous rights takes hold – there are lots of ancillary benefits for the country.”

                      I fully support flooding, with cash and good intentions, the bottom end of all NZ negative social statistics. I reckon most here do. If part of that, for you, is teaching your people to speak your own language and practice your own culture, that’s okay by me too.

                      “They would have a use for it – that is the point.”

                      You think they would, but they won’t, and that’s the point.
                      I’d rail against compulsory English lessons for new arrivals too, for the same reasons I derided Norman Tebbit’s cricket test in Blighty, and will always fail it here. I’ve protested against the NF, the BNP and other assorted idiots who make claims that newcomers have to adapt their cultures to assimilate with the new world. It’s bullshit, whatever the colour and creed of the home team. Live by the law, as part of the whole, however you fucking want to, it’s your personal right.

                      You’ll achieve little with compulsory anything.
                      I get why you want your language spoken more, just like welsh and Cornish people do, but forcing an issue that has negative impact is just stupid policy.

                      “Try not to be so one-dimensional because the word compulsory is used.”

                      Try not to be such a princess, just because someone thinks you’re talking shit.

                    • Oh dear seems like I’m not the only one that can throw a tanty.

                      “If part of that, for you, is teaching your people to speak your own language and practice your own culture, that’s okay by me too.”

                      That’s not what I was talking about fool. Do you want me to deconstruct my point for you?

                      “You think they would, but they won’t, and that’s the point.”

                      If as, per my original post, we change all the names then unless they know the language they won’t know where they are or where they are going will they?

                      “I’d rail against…”

                      Yes i know but your northern hemisphere references are not relevant to this discussion.

                      “I get why you want your language spoken more…”

                      For some reason i doubt that very much but thank you for your contribution.

                    • The Al1en

                      ‘being a princess’ and ‘talking shit’ should have come with a smiley.
                      I know you [MM] genuinely believe in your point and though I disagree with your methodology, agree with the reasoning somewhat, we probably a share more than a few common goals.
                      If I read like I dismiss out of hand your views, I’m sorry.

                    • The Al1en

                      “Oh dear seems like I’m not the only one that can throw a tanty.”

                      No tanty, just a language thing 😉

                      “If part of that, for you, is teaching your people to speak your own language and practice your own culture, that’s okay by me too.”

                      “That’s not what I was talking about fool.”

                      I got it, I actually already know what your point is and I care not for it. You can try and bring the argument to compulsory re-education v a few jobs for Maori, but it’s wafer thin. tread carefully.

                      “Do you want me to deconstruct my point for you?”

                      one can’t spell touche without reading touchy. 😆

                      “You think they would, but they won’t, and that’s the point.”

                      “If as, per my original post, we change all the names then unless they know the language they won’t know where they are or where they are going will they?”

                      And as my response, it’s not good policy.

                      “I’d rail against…”

                      “Yes i know but your northern hemisphere references are not relevant to this discussion.”

                      Yep, they are.

                      “I get why you want your language spoken more…”

                      “For some reason i doubt that very much but thank you for your contribution.”

                      Somewhat disingenuous, but no reason why we can’t get along.

                    • All good mate no offence taken and I do actually appreciate your contribution.

                    • The Al1en

                      “All good mate no offence taken and I do actually appreciate your contribution.”

                      Ka amohia atu ia ki tōna wāhi okiokinga; ko ia ko te whakaaio whenua.

                    • Colonial Weka

                      “If part of that, for you, is teaching your people to speak your own language and practice your own culture, that’s okay by me too.”

                      Te Reo Maori is an official language of NZ. It’s OUR language.

                      Al1en, you say that pakeha have no use for Te Reo Maori, but they do. When you expose pakeha to te reo, the begin to understand many things better, including their treaty partners.

                    • The Al1en

                      “Te Reo Maori is an official language of NZ.”

                      No one has said otherwise.

                      “Al1en, you say that pakeha have no use for Te Reo Maori,”

                      I actually didn’t say that at all. I said non Maori, which of course includes Somalians, Egyptians and Chinese for example, among many others who are not sons of European pioneers.

                      ‘but they do. When you expose pakeha to te reo, the begin to understand many things better, including their treaty partners.’

                      People don’t have to do anything they don’t want to, including learning and using languages spoken by a very small percentage of the populace, even if they are first arrivals.
                      For many, even though you might really really want it to, it means nothing, at all.
                      You can’t teach those who don’t care to learn.

                    • Colonial Weka

                      “You can’t teach those who don’t care to learn.”

                      I’m suggesting that te reo be compulsory at schools (and free to adults). Much of the school curriculum is compulsory.

                      Ok, so rephrasing, you appear to be saying that non-Maori have no use for te reo. My point still stands – they do, because it enables them to understand concepts of Te Ao Maori that are hard to grasp otherwise.

                    • The Al1en

                      “You can’t teach those who don’t care to learn.”

                      “I’m suggesting that te reo be compulsory at schools (and free to adults). Much of the school curriculum is compulsory.”

                      No problem with schools, though some parents may wish to opt out and their children learn another language, and that should be ok.
                      No problem with free adult classes for those that want them either.

                      “Ok, so rephrasing, you appear to be saying that non-Maori have no use for te reo.”

                      No, some non Maori have no use for te reo, nor wish to learn it, nor be forced to.
                      *edit Have just read back and I can see didn’t write ‘some’, but the point is the same.

                      “My point still stands – they do, because it enables them to understand concepts of Te Ao Maori that are hard to grasp otherwise.”

                      But the point still remains that some don’t wish to understand better, and whilst understanding and honest dialogue usually always lead to better outcomes, I don’t see the grounds to compel. I mean, what are you going to do, lock them up for not saying Kia ora?

                      So rephrasing, I’d fund the language in school and further education if wanted, continue with Maori tv and Maori language progs on tvnz, run induction classes for new immigrants and dual name anything that moves including the North/South islands and baked beans with sausages.
                      What a cunt I am 😆

                    • Colonial Weka

                      I see te reo as compulsory in schools in the same that way that civics should be. Or that maths, science, English already is. Suggesting an opt out for te reo misses the point.

                      “But the point still remains that some don’t wish to understand better, and whilst understanding and honest dialogue usually always lead to better outcomes, I don’t see the grounds to compel. I mean, what are you going to do, lock them up for not saying Kia ora?”

                      No, they just fail in that subject like in any other. If we can say that all people growing up here need to have an understanding of science, or civics, then why not Te Ao Maori? You’re argument only really makes sense if you believe that te reo is just another language option like Japanese.

                    • The Al1en

                      “You’re argument only really makes sense if you believe that te reo is just another language option like Japanese.”

                      For some, who aren’t as passionate as yourself, or indeed passionate to any degree about it all, that’s all it is and all it ever will be.
                      That’s surely a fact, sad or otherwise depending, you’ll concede?

                      “No, they just fail in that subject like in any other.”

                      In school, of course, but my main point of focus was addressing the suggested compulsory/mandatory learning of a language and culture in order to live here. I didn’t expect or demand it from immigrants to the UK and don’t accept it here either.

                      “If we can say that all people growing up here need to have an understanding of science, or civics, then why not Te Ao Maori?”

                      Because they don’t need to learn Maori any more than Maori need to learn Urdu, French or Welsh to live together.
                      We’re lucky English is the worlds language.

                    • Colonial Weka

                      Just in case this goes on for a wile 😉 I answered here

                      Open mike 02/04/2013

                    • “a very small percentage of the populace, even if they are first arrivals.”

                      Māori are not just ‘first arrivals’, the culture developed here and that is why they are indigenous to these islands. As wikipedia outlines, “Indigenous peoples are ethnic minorities who have been marginalized as their historical territories became part of a state.[1] In international or national legislation they are generally defined as having a set of specific rights based on their historical ties to a particular territory, and to their cultural or historical distinctiveness from politically dominant populations. The concept of indigenous people may define them as particularly vulnerable to exploitation, marginalization and oppression by nations or states that may still be in the process of colonialism, or by politically dominant ethnic groups.”

                      It is a very important concept to grasp and I emphasise it because too often the line ‘first arrivals’ is used to marginalise and denigrate Māori as if somehow in some strange universe they are not indigenous and by not being indigenous, under this worldview, they are not due the rights and respect that indigenous peoples should be given in this world. I say should because the sad truth is that that rarely has happened unless the dominant culture decides to misappropriate some aspect of the indigenous culture for their own purposes.

                      Understanding the indigenous culture of a land people choose to live in imo should be step 1 otherwise we end up with the sorts of negative social statistics for marginalised indigenous cultures we see here and around the world.

                      I know it is a tangential point but I felt I had to make it to correct any misunderstandings that may be there with the use of the term ‘first arrivals’.

                    • The Al1en

                      Yeah, certainly didn’t use the term as described in your second paragraph, so misunderstanding avoided.

                • Colonial Weka

                  “The problem is this incremental change is not really happening imo. Māori have to fight for every scrap of concession and that just isn’t good enough. Middle NZ will continue to focus on their positions and that is the way of it.”

                  Ae, and that seriously sucks. I guess the way I see it is that if middle NZ can feel like they are still part of something, then the fighting that Maori are doing will be more effective (or, middle NZ will be less resistant).

                  “If it was up to me I’d change all the names back to their Māori names, have an extensive education program to create connection for people about the context of the names and why they are called what they are called, and instigate compulsory te reo Māori classes for everyone living here, or wanting to come here. Those measures would make this country a better place for tangata whenua and everyone else and bind us together much tighter and in more meaningful ways that occurs or is even considered today.”

                  I completely agree. I think most pakeha fail to grasp just how important te reo is in understanding Te Ao Maori, or the land for that matter. Or history. Compulsory te reo at schools would do more for race relations in this country than any other act (apart from treaty setttlements I guess).

    • Colonial Weka 12.5

      I feel a cultural affinity with the name South Island. I have no problem with Te Wai Pounamu being used as the official name, yet myself would also continue to use South Island alongside that.

      I’d like to know more about the history and origins of the name ‘Te Wai Pounamu’ and how the Geographic Board chose it as the best one for an official name.

      I agree ‘Te Wai Pounamu’ is a mouthful for many pakeha, but that’s just a matter of practice and an opportunity for us to improve our pronunciation. ‘Pounamu’ is an excellent word for learning one of the more difficult Maori vowel sounds.

      “the names of the bland and ridiculous ‘North’ and ‘South’ Islands of this country.”

      Could have been worse 😉 …

      “In the 19th century, some maps named the South Island as Middle Island or New Munster, and the name South Island or New Leinster was used for today’s Stewart Island/Rakiura.”

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Island#Naming_and_usage

  13. geoff 13

    Matthew Hooton on nine to noon this morning….

    Hooton completely ripped off Eddie’s analysis on Labour’s factions (/labours-three-factions/)

    He didn’t even have the stones to give credit to Eddie.

    Then he proceeded to argue the case, which many on The Standard have been making, about the prospect of Shearer getting ripped to shreds during the election campaign. Must have only just occurred to Hooton…

    The only amusing part was Mike Williams being put on the spot trying to defend Shearer.

    I suppose Hooton believes that any credible coup threat from a properly leftwing labour candidate is now unlikely before the election. He can now change tack and stop publically defending Shearer (as he has been doing on numerous occasions) and start attacking him to help National win the election.

    Near the end:
    [audio src="http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/ntn/ntn-20130402-1108-politics_with_matthew_hooton_and_mike_williams-048.mp3" /]

    • fender 13.1

      He also managed to turn Shearers offshore ‘bank account’ into Shearers offshore ‘bank accounts’.

      That Hooton really makes for poor radio, no idea why they persist with him, he comes across as venal, rude and immature. Kathryn Ryan could do better in pulling him up on his bullshit, as could Mike Williams who seems to have his head in the clouds too often than not. I’d like to hear different commentators each week rather than these stale crusty leftovers.

      • geoff 13.1.1

        At least Kathryn does pull Hooton up on things, Mike Williams just wheezes and puffs. His head isn’t in the clouds, he’s thinking about his lunch and afternoon nap. It’s unsuprising that the rightwing turds who decided to bring Matthew Hooton into RNZ were also the ones that chose a particularly weak leftwing opponent.

    • Anne 13.2

      The only amusing part was Mike Williams being put on the spot trying to defend Shearer.

      No it wasn’t.

      Mike’s attempt to pass off Lianne Dalziel and David Cunliffe as Labour dissidents was also amusing. Intellectually superior and principled MPs are now dissidents? They lost another when Charles Chauvel walked so they had better be careful…

      • Olwyn 13.2.1

        Labour dissidents? That is just jaw dropping! Someone should point that Mike Williams to the list of Labour values and ask him what he thinks they mean, and what he thinks they are there for.

        • Anne 13.2.1.1

          At that point I turned my radio off Olwyn. This childish aside came from a former Labour Party president – the present incumbent’s immediate predecessor. It sort of helps explain why Labour is not doing anything like as well as it should be given the NAct govt’s appalling management.

          • Olwyn 13.2.1.1.1

            I remember he was known for being a very good fund raiser at the time. I do not know whether he is working for Labour in any capacity now, but calling elected members dissidents on air is astoundingly disrespectful. There is also a sinister undertone in the implication that it is now dissident for a member of a centre left party to show any left wing leanings whatsoever. But on what authority? Not on the party’s principles, not on the wishes of the party’s members, not on widespread public acclaim.

      • geoff 13.2.2

        Yeah Williams is appalling.

        • Colonial Viper 13.2.2.1

          Isn’t it strange that the Labour leadership has expressed their disapproval and asked him to stop his radio appearances? Oh wait. Never mind.

    • emergency mike 13.3

      Yep, shameless theft there, but it’s Matthew Hooten so it’s hard to be too shocked. Indeed it’s a bit of a turn around from his comments on this blog giving hand-claps and other encouragement to Shearer to now saying things like “I don’t see how he can compete,” and being unable to hide his glee at repeatedly bringing up Shearer’s bank account gaffe no matter how irrelevant.

      Mike Williams says he watched parliament last week and was bothered to see John Key ‘making flippant jokes’ about serious issues like the EQC data leak. (Um Mike that’s been his arrogant style since, well always.) Hooten responds with (paraphrasing) “Well, in fairness to John Key, David Shearer’s undeclared bank accounts! *Chortle*” (At about the 20min mark.)

      I also gagged a bit at the end when after Williams tries to defend Shearer and Labour’s current performance, Hooten quips that he would do well as a propagandist in North Korea. Oh dee irony.

      • geoff 13.3.1

        I found it a little interesting that Hooton was so adamant to downplay the effects of the smelter on the Mighty River share price. Makes me wonder if there is something more going on there than merely defending a tory policy…

  14. Colonial Viper 15

    Lianne Dalziel just put up a strong effort representing her constituents on National Radio’s The Panel, but unbelieveably, they cut her off mid sentence saying that they were now going to move on to another topic. I don’t think they even thanked her for her time, they just switched her off. Whoever the guy was on the panel kept up with the Tory spin saying that all which could be done has been done, which was maddening.

    For Lianne, may I suggest the following improvements in radio interview technique:

    – It’s important to stay cool and not to take on a “shrill” tone of voice: it’s off putting to even sympathetic listeners. Maintain an even reasoned tone even in the face of Tory stupidity.
    – Ensure you link your “what would you have done different (and why)” answers to “what Gerry Brownlee needs to do different right now” (don’t refer to what the Government needs to do, put the pressure on King Brownlee)
    – It’s always tricky to challenge a radio show where the tone is basically a defeatist “look the situation is rubbish but hasn’t the Government done so well with the hand it was given”. The most important thing is to pierce the veil early and hard. Your specific example about land swaps was perfect for this, but needed to come in earlier and harder, to halt the shows preprogrammed narrative in its tracks.

    Overall good to hear you on air.

    • Anne 15.1

      She was being seriously provoked CV. The usual story… the ignorant Graham Bell putting her down because she was a stupid woman who didn’t know what she was talking about? It was disgraceful manners. Lianne should lay a formal complaint about her treatment and especially the way Noelle (whatever her surname is) cut her off mid-sentence without so much as a by your leave. Appalling stuff.

    • xtasy 15.2

      Check out the board and editors of RNZ, and I would not be surprised that the present members, and the ones they keep employed as moderators and journalists, fit the National Party line of “allowing” certain things to be said and broadcast, none else.

  15. They are still confiscating Māori land and still pretending to consult with Māori when they have already made up their minds. They use many guises for the process such as roads.

    “Harry Wilson, one of the NZTA Directors stood to make the announcement that the Eastern Arterial Route (EAR) option had been selected for development along the eastern lake side of Rotorua.”

    “This decision will decimate traditional wāhi tapu and disconnect whānau from their papakainga along the Owhata, Ngapuna areas.”

    The response of whānau and hapu members was to all walk out of the meeting showing their strong solidarity and rejection of the decision. This land confiscation is what tangata whenua are fighting against and the fight is the same fight that previous generations have fought.

    http://news.tangatawhenua.com/archives/21532

    http://mars2earth.blogspot.co.nz/2013/04/land-confiscation-2013-style.html

    • Ugly Truth 16.1

      Confiscation can only be done with legitimate authority. If the land is rightfully yours then it cannot legally be confiscated. Of course this does not stop them from assuming authority. It is more difficult for them to assume authority if you can show why they don’t have any. Showing how they are in conflict with the law of the land is one way of doing this.

      Open mike 28/03/2013

      • Colonial Viper 16.1.1

        Confiscation can only be done with legitimate authority.

        That’s what the Public Works Act is for.

        • Ugly Truth 16.1.1.1

          Acts can’t grant authority that they don’t have.

          • Colonial Viper 16.1.1.1.1

            You do understand that this is about a veneer of legitimacy, right?

            • Ugly Truth 16.1.1.1.1.1

              Faith in the Westminster system doesn’t make it legitimate, but that faith can still motivate people to act as if they were lawfully confiscating the land. Legitimacy is consistent with reason, not with faith.

              People can be mistaken when they say they understand something, especially when it involves the combination of religion and politics.

              • Colonial Viper

                Nah your rationale about power and legitimacy is all up the creek.

                • Legitimate, adj. That which is lawful, legal, recognized by law, or according to law; as, legitimate children, legitimate authority, lawful power, legitimate sport or amusement.

                  Lex est ratio summa, quae jubet quae sunt utilia et necessaria, et contraria prohibet. Law is the perfection of reason, which commands what is useful and necessary and forbids the contrary.

      • marty mars 16.1.2

        ugly – not interested in anything you have to say or as someone recently said to you – fuck off

        Open mike 28/03/2013

        but I do appreciate your use of macrons.

        • Ugly Truth 16.1.2.1

          With a name like mine, do you think I’m doing this for the popularity?

          • marty mars 16.1.2.1.1

            why are you doing it?

            • Ugly Truth 16.1.2.1.1.1

              You could call it enlightened self interest. I don’t want to see this place go to hell in a handbasket.

              • Anne

                Bullshit UT. You’re up yourself. That’s why you’re doing it. Go and do it somewhere else… that’s a good boy/girl.

                • Project much, Anne?

                  • karol

                    Anne doesn’t come across as being “up herself”. Try again.

                    • Thinking before you type should help with that.

                    • Colonial Weka

                      I’m starting to feel like even the return of PG would be better than this.

                    • xtasy

                      Maori have been ripped off from word go, all else is LIES and bull shit. All the compensation will in part restitute the resources, but there will never be a true justice. If I was Maori, I would have NO TRUST in PAKEHA. I am European, but not descendant of a colonial power that took this land. It could be a much better land anyway, if people here learned and joined together, but that is proved to be a “dream” never to happen.

                      Division, resentment, hatred and down-right neo-colonialism of the wrong kind are ruining this country, especially when joined with right neo lib capitalist sell out agendas, where only a small elite gain and control matters. I have NO hope in this damned piece of earth, that seems to have been cursed for ever.

                      NO social justice, NO fairness, NO joint responsibility and ownership, still a ROTTEN elite owning and running a post colonial back stop that is reality. All else is lies. Too many “Kiwis” are NO “Kiwis”, they are all out for personal gains and self righteousness, hence they leave in droves to sell and buy, to get a turf in a perceived “safer” territory, to save their post colonial skin and betrayed mentality.

                      I an still waiting to meet “real” New Zealanders that stand their grounds and fight for it. I met NONE!

                    • How would you recognize them, xtasy?

                    • xtasy

                      Re my critical rant last night: People like John Minto and Sue Bradford I would exempt from my criticism, as they are truly standing up for justice and the rights of every person, particularly the poor and disadvantaged.

                      I just get so frustrated and angry about Mr and Mrs Average, who I see and meet every day, who do not seem to give a toss about the future of their country.

                      So while Ugly Truth goes on with is interpretation of matters, which I actually understand (due to having met similarly minded people), I feel, he is lost in some marginal lot that believe that common law will set us all free.

                      Google Mary Croft and read some of her stuff, and you know where she comes from. It is all about individualising matters and using legal angles to set yourself free, without any social responsibility and conscience. That is where UT also fails to convince.

                  • muzza

                    Ugly – What you have encountered here, is that they don’t want to hear anything which can’t be *rationalised*, or *solutionalised*.

                    Problem is that there is scant interest in trying to understand where the core issues probably exist, and as such, *rationalising and solutionising*, are being considered under conditions of certain failure, basically , square pegs round holes scenario!

                    In exactly the same scape, that until the monetary supply issue is handled in a way which will allow benefit for this country and all its people, the legal fraud must be exposed and unraveled also, if not, then it is an amplification, of the downward trajectory we have in front of us now!

                    Its as if people are content, acting as an official recorded timeline of scheduled disaster, speculating about remedies which can’t exist, and refusing to consider the reasons why this country continues to be, *legally/financially rooted*

  16. xtasy 17

    Dilma Roussef’s Brazilizan “wonder”, see for yourself , how police deal there to perceived out of hand carnavalistas in Bahia:

    Is this another dictatorship in the making???

    • xtasy 17.1

      AND then let us look at “racial harmony” in NZ, which is the biggest dirty lie in NZ history! There is NO harmony! Rectify it, thanks, you liars!

  17. McFlock 18

    Another roy morgan.
    Lab back up to 34.5%.

    [lprent: added charts. ]

    • rosy 18.1

      Labour is picking up support from potential coalition partners – in this case mainly NZ First, not denting National support. Still, I guess to close to call is better than not at all close…. ?

      The confidence rating is better for National than the last poll. Sort of disappointing really.

      • lprent 18.1.1

        The confidence rating is better for National than the last poll.

        Huh? I think you may be reading that wrong. The government got the traditional holiday bump in the GCR (you can see the Dec/Jan/Feb pattern in previous years if you look), but it appears to be going down again (need another downward or flat data point to feel more confident)

        • rosy 18.1.1.1

          I was pretty excited to see the CR dropping in the last couple of polls, but this one? So I was only commenting compared to last poll. It’s back up. Yes compared to last year it’s a little less.

    • lprent 18.2

      Slightly better, and despite the noise I think that there is an upwards trend in there over the last year. Problem is that at the current rate of growth Labour would be well below ~38-40% it needs going into and election and to form a reasonably stable two party coalition post-election.

      Incidentally, have a look at the polls in the second year of last term where there was a higher average poll rating than at present. Then look at what happened in the third year.

      The GCR looks better than after the xmas break

      • Colonial Viper 18.2.1

        There’s perhaps a 50/50 chance that Labour will get to form the next government. But will it be because Labour have made a strong case or will it be because National just keep screwing up enough. And for me the question remains – what major new directions and ethos will Shearer lead in that next government. I can’t tell that yet. At all. Which is pretty concerning from a political party supposedly based on clear values and principles.

  18. Colonial Weka 19

    “You’re argument only really makes sense if you believe that te reo is just another language option like Japanese.”

    For some, who aren’t as passionate as yourself, or indeed passionate to any degree about it all, that’s all it is and all it ever will be.
    That’s surely a fact, sad or otherwise depending, you’ll concede?

    That’s only true if you think that Maori are just another minority. They’re not. They’re the treaty partner of the crown which represents non-Maori.


    “No, they just fail in that subject like in any other.”

    In school, of course, but my main point of focus was addressing the suggested compulsory/mandatory learning of a language and culture in order to live here. I didn’t expect or demand it from immigrants to the UK and don’t accept it here either.

    Yes, but the reason I side more with marty is because once you get successive generations of kids leaving school with a decent grasp of te reo, then society will change dramatically, and how immigrants should/can fit into that will become apparent. Marty says make it compulsory, you say don’t, I say be sneaky.

    “If we can say that all people growing up here need to have an understanding of science, or civics, then why not Te Ao Maori?”

    Because they don’t need to learn Maori any more than Maori need to learn Urdu, French or Welsh to live together.

    Why have any compulsory subject at school then? No-one ‘needs’ to learn maths or science, they do it because they are told to.

    We’re lucky English is the worlds language.

    Maybe, but te reo is the language of THIS land.

    • The Al1en 19.1

      “Just in case this goes on for a wile I answered here”

      It probably won’t, not ’cause were diametric (which I don’t believe we are) but first day off for the week tomorrow and I like to maximise my ‘I did the minimum required, this is my time now’, and don’t want to sleep in and lose precious two fingers to the world saluting time.

      “That’s only true if you think that Maori are just another minority. They’re not. They’re the treaty partner of the crown which represents non-Maori.”

      Adding I fully support the treaty to my list of shame 😉 I think that’s too simplistic a view, even though the answer is probably much more so. I suspect most people just see people, not minority people, and because we’re all in the same boat (waka) as each other, we’ve morphed into a one. Doesn’t necessarily follow that because it’s not so important or even relevant that it’s an attack or an affront.
      I don’t know, I sort of like the concept, but then you might be right and that would be a bit of sad bring-me-down.

      “Yes, but the reason I side more with marty is because once you get successive generations of kids leaving school with a decent grasp of te reo, then society will change dramatically, and how immigrants should/can fit into that will become apparent. Marty says make it compulsory, you say don’t, I say be sneaky.”

      I see his point about promoting the use of te reo, which is why I push for dual naming, which is sort of sneaky, isn’t it?

      “Maybe, but te reo is the language of THIS land.”

      Yes, rightly one of the official languages of NZ, and one of a vast number being spoken by kiwis up and down the country on a daily basis.

      “Why have any compulsory subject at school then? No-one ‘needs’ to learn maths or science, they do it because they are told to.”

      There’s no smart arse set up or wordsmithery. People already get on with their lives without knowing Maori, their language or their culture, this is fact, so I’m not sure the question is relevant, especially given the original context that to some people there is zero benefit in learning it and forcing them to won’t benefit anyone.

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