Retaining a separate identity from the larger Government has become one of the main focuses of the co-leadership election, where Women’s Minister Julie Anne Genter is facing off against backbencher Marama Fox.
Not really wanting to put my oar in on this one – but the white middle class seem to find the activist māori rather threatening.
We need diversity. Being seen as a party of white middle class makes it too easy for the pundits to think of the Greens as being only a one issue party.
Thats an oft repeated assumption. There are actually more important things than “diverse” ie non partison , informed, and sound process. Far better to look for the person who can and will do the job properly for the benifit of all. searching for diverisity is mostly ephermeral based on obvious and largely irrelivant things like skin colour , gender, whilst ignoring more important indicators such as class, social group, and outlook.
Macro said the Greens shouldn’t be seen to be a white middle class party.
OAB said,
“We need diversity”
…and not just for appearance’s sake, although that’s important too. Diverse groups make better, more inclusive, more robust decisions.
In other words, how the Greens are perceived is important, but diversity is a good goal/value in its own right.
Your reply implied that that was an assumption which isn’t true, but you didn’t put up any evidence of that. Instead you stated *your preferences* i.e. it’s ‘more important’ to have a non-partisan, informed and sound process.
This implies that the Greens doing diversity means they are partisan (not sure what that means in this context tbh), uninformed, and have shitty process.
You then said that rather than diversity being one of the criteria it’s ‘far better’ to look for the person who will do the job properly. Again, the implication is that valuing diversity somehow means *not choosing the person who will do the job properly.
In this case, I can’t see either of those women not doing the job properly, so I’m wondering what the point is. You either believe one of the women is not suitable, or you agree that both are in which case why would diversity be a problem?
My response was to point out that if it’s the former, then it’s likely to be Davidson that is not the suitable person, because so much of her work is around diversity. In her case, that’s not separable from her being Māori e.g. Genter could have all the dedication in the world to diversity but she’s not going to have the background, understanding of issues or connections that MD has simply because of who MD is. Being Māori is an asset in this situation.
Given that the Greens have a serious commitment to Te Tiriti, this isn’t a Pākehā trying to be inclusive thing, it’s actually core to the whole kaupapa of the party.
If instead of MD, there was say a GP member up against JAG who didn’t have the experience/background/connections or skill that MD has and didn’t have the skill to do the job properly, but was Māori, then I would expect the party to choose JAG as the leader.
On the other hand, if you are saying that both women *can do the job properly, then you are actively arguing against Māori women having representation in parliament and the party and that instead we should favour class issues. The irony there is that MD also is representative of working and underclass people, and is a big part of the reason for why the Greens are able to be credible continuing to do that work after Turei. But maybe those aren’t the right kind of class issues because they are very visibly taking into account the class issues of Māori and Pasifica.
searching for diverisity is mostly ephermeral based on obvious and largely irrelivant things like skin colour , gender, whilst ignoring more important indicators such as class, social group, and outlook.
Well let’s take that to its logical conclusion. We’d then have men standing for the (female) co-leader position. And everyone would be ignoring gender and ethnicity but focussing on class, interest groups, and world view. But those class, interests and world views would have to be colour and sex blind. Then we’d have something akin to the National Party Caucus.
No commitment to women’s issues or Te Tiriti, which would then mean that the GP was no longer the GP.
Which is of course exactly what you want. You can run your anti-identity politics arguments, but in the end you are basically advocating for white men to be running the show, because when you take out sex and ethnicity that is what our society defaults to. Even if you don’t care about that, the big flaw in your argument is that the default is also wealthy men, so you can forget about class being taken into account in any meaningful way.
On the issue of process, the problem here isn’t that the GP use unsound process. Their process is very sound and robust, esp by NZ political standards.
I think what you are saying is that their process shouldn’t try and help women and Māori (and presumably other ethnicities, disabled people, the queer community etc), but instead is only sound if it actively ignores those people and issues and instead focussed on class. I’d love to see a modern sound process designed that does that btw (I think it’s an oxymoron myself, but see if you can provide some examples). Some of us are old enough to understand that left wing politics used to be exactly that. Politics that suited white men focussed on class and white women were on their backs or making cups of tea. Where were Māori women?
This was an important part of the genesis of second wave feminism as white women in particular in those communities left to organise their own politics because the men were incapable of attending to women’s issues. That’s right, women left traditional left wing groups *precisely because of them organising around the values you are promoting here. So unless you are suggesting that women give up their own politics and do what men want, it’s very hard to see how that would work. Either way, sound process doesn’t come into it.
btw, if you don’t mean any or all of those things, it’s on you to clarify. Because otherwise you just look like you are running the same tired old lines telling women to step aside.
you are conflating diversity and inclusiveness. and the results seem to show most gains from inclusive decision making as expected. so that would suggest that the ability to engage “inclusively” is a higher priority than “diverse”
I am not suggesting that there is not positives for diversity just that there are rather more important considerations
As well I am questioning what seems to be an unquestioned assumption that Marama represents more “diversity” , she may well do so! but it requires a lot more consideration than “cause she is brown”! I actually do not have a preference at this time as i do not have sufficient info (yet!) . All I am saying is i do not accept Marama = diversity = good thing without a lot more analysis
you are conflating diversity and inclusiveness. and the results seem to show most gains from inclusive decision making as expected. so that would suggest that the ability to engage “incusively” is a higher priority than “diverse”
No I’m not. The article was quite clear:
“Diversity and inclusion must go hand-in-hand to drive results,” said Laura Sherbin, CFO and Director of Research at the Center for Talent Innovation. “Cloverpop’s research bolsters the case that employers who build diverse and inclusive teams see the best outcomes.”
According to the research, teams outperform individual decision makers 66% of the time, and decision making improves as team diversity increases. Compared to individual decision makers, all-male teams make better business decisions 58% of the time, while gender diverse teams do so 73% of the time. Teams that also include a wide range of ages and different geographic locations make better business decisions 87% of the time.
“This research highlights the potential value of team diversity as a practical tool for architecting decision-making processes,” said Harvard Business School Professor Francesca Gino. “That our decisions get sidetracked by biases is now well established. While it is hard to change how our brains are wired, it’s possible to change the context of decisions by architecting the composition of decision-making teams for more diverse perspectives.”
You seem to be reaching to prove that you were right when you were obviously wrong.
None of which are threatened by greater diversity.
look for the person who can and will do the job properly for the benifit [sic] of all
The meritocracy paradox demonstrates how ineffective this approach is.
Oh, and it isn’t an assumption. Check out a few meta-analyses and you’ll find a small positive correction between performance outcomes and group diversity.
…the white middle class seem to find the activist māori rather threatening.
I think it’s not so much that we find Davidson threatening as that Genter is one of us, so of course we prefer her. The question is how many will be able to see past their personal preferences to think about what would be best for the party – it will be interesting to watch.
Both dynamics will no doubt be happening. I’d be very disappointed if that was happening to the same extent within the active GP members (or at least people need to get past what makes them comfortable).
Well I’ve got the impression normal person means white people and ethnicity, gender and orientation are blithely reduced to an irrelevant abstraction, so fuck yeah, it’s insulting.
There you go Weka. As I said Henry Cooke is NO friend of the Left.
He thinks of Marama Davidson as an “activist” (Fox) and Julie Anne Genter as “like him” so acceptable. If you Greens have to have another leader, this is his choice.
He is a lazy self serving pratt, who behaved in a similar manner towards Jacinder Ardern during her campaign. He would say things like “Another school am”
“Made a speech to the faithful in the town hall pm” He made it plain it was all under sufferance and faintly beneath him. While the reporter following Bill English raved about every thing Bill did. So I marked his card as they say.
Stuff’s going to be swallowed by Granny Herald so we need to watch this space.
I watched the interviews the other night, and he didn’t behave as you suggest at all.
He thinks of Marama Davidson as an “activist” (Fox) and Julie Anne Genter as “like him” so acceptable. If you Greens have to have another leader, this is his choice.
whereas I see the surname mistake as just that (he’s not the only one who has made that mistake). And there’s nothing in that piece to suggest that he prefers Genter, or that in doing so it’s an ethnicity issue (I think you utterly made that up).
He’s under no obligation to be a friend of the left, he’s a journalist.
I get that you don’t like him, but short of linking to some things he did last year and describing what is wrong, I can’t made much sense of what you are referring to.
e.g.He would say things like “Another school am”
“Made a speech to the faithful in the town hall pm”
I can’t see what is wrong with sentences like that, not least because I have no context.
“While the reporter following Bill English raved about every thing Bill did.”
How does that have anything to do with Cooke?
The Stuff article from today is pretty much all reporting of what the GP are doing, with a small amount of commentary at the end. I’m highly critical of the MSM too, but I think we have to give them credit when they get things right, and the kind of neutral reporting in that piece is exactly what I want to see more of.
Maybe I’m missing something, feel free to point it out.
Oh come on Patricia. Give the guy a break and don’t condemn him for life as if he is an old hand/hack such as Barry Soper.
Henry Cooke is all of 24/25 years old – just a couple of years out of his tertiary studies and employed as a political reporter at Stuff for only a year or two (probably on a very low salary). Pretty good going actually, to be a Parliamentary political reporter at the age and level of work experience.
We all make mistakes, particularly when we are young and learning – and old like me.
AND he did have the courtesy of replying last night to your comments on the Gender and Davidson post (which I see you have now responded to after posting this comment).
On a personal note, I know people who know Henry well and consider him to be an exceptionally nice young person with a real concern for people with disabilities, mental health issues and those in need etc. (Some of those people are in those circumstances themselves.) Very far from a right wing whatever. And a big dog lover.
A big dog lover, ok that’s fine then, if he has memory issues and can’t even get right what names goes with what party they represent as a political reporter. No problems!!!
Thank you for that balance veutoviper. See my reply to Weka. I accept perhaps I read more into both things than I should have done. If you read this Henry, Sorry.
Not a problem Patricia. I thought it was probably a misunderstanding or a case of mistaken identity. I am sure Henry will fully accept that.
I often have a quick look at his Twitter account and those of other political media types as it is a really good way of finding out news before it even hits the media websites! I have a massive and complex collection of bookmarks – and then wonder why my old PC is slow.
Anyway no mention on there etc, and he is excited as tomorrow he is off to the Pacific for 5-6 days with the PM, Deputy PM and other Ministers/MPs including James Shaw on the annual Ministerial visit to the Pacific nations with which we have strong ties – this year, Samoa, Tonga, Niue and the Cook islands.
LOL – no! I have not even met him to speak to but have seen him in person a number of times and as I said we have mutual friends/acquaintances. Saw his excitement etc on his Twitter feed.
I’m in Wellington and Wellington City itself is a small world – a town not a city. Ditto the Government work environment in which I grew up and then worked for many years of Parliament, Govt Head Offices, and all related organisations etc – unions, media etc. – is an even smaller world/community. You blot your copybook in that small world and don’t expect to work there again. While I am now retired I am still in touch with many people still in that world. And I also sometimes bump into people like Andrew Little and have a chat in the local shops etc.
Hey NZ politicians, it would be good if we could give some regular allocation of foreign aid to those Pacific Islands and be the major shareholder and operator in a ferry/freight boat for each major island. That would be real practical help in fair weather or foul.
Talking of aid. To hear the Aussie PM say to Jacinda and the press that they gave a million in aid each year during the stand up with media ( and NZ sent $750 000 to Tonga after Gita. ) Their aid should be 5 X greater by population.
NZ has always had regular formal allocations of aid to the Pacific Islands, greywarshark, This is through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade which has a separate section dedicated purely to this work.
I don’t have time right now but will do a fuller comment on this in the next day or so.
Winston Peters gave a keynote speech on Thursday on increases in aid and other assistance to the Pacific Islands with which we have strong relationships; and there will be more to come in the next five days during the Ministerial mission to Samoa, Tonga, Niue and the Cook Islands this week by the PM etc which I mentioned in my 1.1.2.2.2.1 above.
Thanks vv
I have heard about shonky ferries and irregular shipping for some time to the PI. But if left to whoever there they can be overloaded and undermanned. So that would be a good bit of expenditure for us and really helpful.
Here are a few links for you on NZ aid etc to the Pacific Islands from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade’s website. NZ has always had and still has considerable responsibilities in respect of many Pacific Islands as some were directly administered by NZ before becoming independent, others are Commonwealth members like NZ, and one or two are still under NZ’s direct administration ie Tokelau.
As a result of these responsibilities, NZ has been providing financial aid, and other forms of aid and assistance (health, education, safety, energy infrastructure, transport (eg ferries etc) for many decades.
These links have many links in them on specific topics, types of aid provided etc
Under the Nat govt, aid (including $$$) to the Pacific was cut back considerably. The new Govt is going to reverse this and it will again be a priority as outlined by Winston Peters last Thursday night in a speech to the Lowry institute in Sydney. https://www.beehive.govt.nz/speech/shifting-dial
There will be much more on this in the next five days as the PM’s Ministerial Mission goes around the Pacific.
You do know that the PM’s parents have been living for about the last 10 years in the Pacific (Niue, then Samoa and then back to Niue) where her father has worked for the NZ Govt first in the area of police liaison until his retirement from NZ Police and then for the last four years as NZ High Commissioner to Niue. They are due to move back to NZ in the next month or so and will be here to help with their soon to be grandchild. But father is also now becoming the NZ Administrator of Tukelau – so will still be working in the area of aid and assistance to the Pacific.
Veutoviper, My current Codeine meds make me a crab!! So I have to watch that.. I’m glad it is working out for him. I did not realise how young he is. They don’t earn much and getting to all the campaign whistle stops can also be an issue, so being included in the group going with the PM and all would be really exciting for him. I’ll read his posts with interest, and far less bile!! Cheers.
Understand – I am somewhat high this week on pain killers myself having been rushed into hospital for a few hours on Monday with an acute attack of (diverticulitis or kidney stones – yet to be determined, have both) and an aftershock (like earthquakes!) a few days later.
They’re hoping to lead by example to take the money out of politics and lobbying.
Good idea. Companies spend money on this because it works. I’ve experienced plenty of it myself and it’s a hell of a job to take a dispassionate approach to the people you just had a great time partying with, even if you don’t feel anything much for their employer. You tell yourself you’re not and won’t be influenced by it, but would they be fronting up all that cash if you weren’t? In my case it’s not a big deal if one company manages to get a slight edge over another, but as Shaw says, in the case of politicians it is a big deal:
“Generally speaking it isn’t community-based organisations or environmental groups that have the resources to do this kind of bidding. They’re not usually organisations who advocate for the homeless or for single mums, or groups that are fighting to protect our water, or native bush.”
“They are usually deep-pocketed corporates, or lobbyists acting on their behalf, who have a financial interest in preserving the status quo.”
Membership fees – capped per annum. Imagine if the most you could charge to be a member was, say, $500 per year.
Vouchers issued to voters as they vote. A voter on election would be issued with a voucher for (say) $10. They deposit the voucher in a box for a political party they wish to get the money. If they refuse to fund anyone, the money will be split after the election along the lines of the percentage of votes achieved.
A payment for each vote achieved, scaled. So (for example) your first 100,000 votes get you $5 each, the next 200,000 $4 each, the next 400,000 $3 each and all subsequent votes $2 each. Thus, a million votes = $3,100,000.
Reading Sanctuary on funding politics I thought what a good idea. And then I just kept going sop hope someone can bother to read this and give a thought as to whether this change would have good effects on numbers voting.
I thought that Sanctuary’s proposal would make voting both seem more important and allow definite direct choice – of money to the Party supported. The whole apparently simple ritual is being overshadowed by all the hype from Parties, from individuals, from the media and very influenced by the money flowing around.
Time to put a stopper on that, reduce it to a steady trickle and leave room to listen to the pollies, have meetings where people put huge wish lists on whiteboards and then debate what things could be done to fulfil them, how much it would cost, where the money would come from. Some politically and economically trained person would explain how the economy is presently working now, and how that would be affected. Shouting would be allowed until silenced by a bell then a siren or loud-hailer! Seriously, if people are to take part and start questioning things then it would be best to allow for irritation and anger, with strict limits.
A coffee cart would be there and after an hour there would be a short break. Then perhaps people could choose groups they were interested in or which they related to – and make bullet points headings of the main subjects with, ten word description of items that people had seen as important. ie Health –
Maternity – more time with help, recovery before going home.
At present it is very anti-climactic. If you vote at home, this important matter will be in a mental list, perhaps after you go to town, play sport etc. If first thing, then it is done in the spirit of ‘Get this over and done with now’ possibly with not much thought before or when carried out. Same if doing it over your phone device. There is little sense of occasion.
If you travel to a polling booth, you have to look up maps perhaps, make a journey. Hard perhaps if in Auckland just getting there. It’s not as big as travelling to Bethlehem on a donkey when Jesus Christ was born during a census, but transport and distance can cause problems.
When you get to the polling booth there is the procedure, you make your mark, drop your voting paper through the right slot, and then, well that’s it. If we want people to take voting seriously which is needed, then make something of the day, a celebration that we have democracy which we take for granted, it’s been hard-win and eady to lose like money. Throughout the day a series of performances by local artists, school children, a reading
from a NZ book for half an hour, to anyone who cares to listen. Make something of it to remember and talk about till next time. Rules apply, singing the actual credo of a Party with backing group, would not be allowed. But at present you can’t have rosettes, balloons in Party colours. Only people who have no ideas or values to motivate them would be influenced by such things. Drop the sterile atmosphere. Put limits on top of behaviour not right at the bottom to stop anything advantaging one or the other.
Let’s celebrate, be glad, be serious, and encourage people to participate!
Yes I thought Sanctuary had some excellent ideas. Celebrating franchise is also needed. Perhaps historical presentations of the history of democracy?
Children could take part.
Sorry, Sanctuary, but i think that’s a dreadful idea. How would a new party (which would have no funding from votes) ever break through? Your system would entrench the two-party hold on most of the funding. Even a party like the Greens would really struggle.
Parties already get allocated campaign money on the basis of their previous election result, but all parties have ongoing running costs and that includes in non-campaign years.
Plus, I don’t know if you’re a party member, but your figure of $500 is hugely above the current costs of party membership. The annual membership for Labour, for example is $5 for unwaged members, rising in stages to $60 for those earning more than $45000. If income from other sources was cut, membership costs would have to rise hugely, meaning lower income people wouldn’t have a chance to be members. Is this what you want?
Parties currently fundraise in all sorts of ways – raffles and garage sales and quiz nights and shared events… My branch of Labour has had a wonderful guy keep us afloat for many years by skip-diving at the end of the year, rescuing text books being thrown away by students and then putting them up for sale at the start of the next year. Brilliant – reduces waste, saves money for the next set of book-owners and raises money for a cause he believes in. Why should that be seen as a problem?
Yes, allowing private funding opens the door to big money influencing parties, but decent disclosure laws and caps on funding from single sources can help to mitigate that. I certainly wouldn’t endorse your approach.
Interesting ideas.
I agree with the first idea, but $500 is quite high – out of reach for many. I’d prefer something pegged to the median wage and topping out at about $200. I’d add that these should only be individual members – no corporations, trusts or unions.Getting back to the days of mass membership parties would be a good thing.
The second and third ideas are good in principle though I feel that each is effectively the same as the other in terms of the outcome they would produce. In which case you may need only one of them and the voucher idea is possibly better in terms of involving the voter.
Is that what they have been up to?
I would much rather be shown that they had been carrying out the Ministerial duties for which they are so handsomely rewarded.
The Census is probably the single most important thing that the Stats Department are going to be doing during Shaw’s tenure as Minister. Shouldn’t he have been ensuring that it was being done properly, rather than discussing whether or not he is allowed to accept a cup of tea and a biscuit when he is asked to open Venable Villa’s Vegan Vegetables for Velociraptors Greenhouse?
It is a bit late to be showing an interest in the subject by delivering some forms to a retirement home just a few days before the Census date.
Can we expect a shambles like the Australian one in 2016?
“The Census is probably the single most important thing that the Stats Department are going to be doing during Shaw’s tenure as Minister. “
Given the priority you seem to have placed on the census, what is your opinion of National deciding not to do the 2011 census. Despite the declaration of a national emergency – it was a regional one. And all the preparation had been done. It would have been the first indication of the state of the nation after the government had taken power. As it was we had to wait another two years, and a further year before that information was available to the public.
The census was set by the Nact’s before the election. So Shaw winds up presiding over their mess unfortunately.
It also has delivery flaws (deliberate?) that will compromise lesser enabled groups.
Firstly the mail has to arrive and coverage of that is far from perfect. If it doesn’t then we are relying on pickup from radio? television/ posters ?? some thing else because a lot of people are going to be blindingly unaware that this is even happening.
To fill it in on line means that a household has to have a computer and the ability to pay about $900 per annum for the various line fees.
Otherwise some one has to phone ( on a prepay?) and hang on until the money runs out (and hope it is answered first) to get a form delivered.
And then it appears that the lot is going to be entered in that great big Nat database that we should all be very worried about.
Exactly RedBaronCV
It’s a worry about today’s governments. To me it seem they are behaving more like arrogant monarchs not true representatives of the people. Government to them, is a place that rich people further enrich themselves, or middle incomers can make really good contacts for future gain.
And statistics – mostly it’s bad news. If you don’t bother with stats you save yourself a lot of grief think the politicians. Simple! We were lucky we haven’t yet had a PM or Cabinet Minister with the attitude of Canada’s pre Trudeau. (If Shaw tried this we would have his guts for garters, and I can’t think that he ever would do something so against our interests.):
Stephen Joseph Harper PC is a Canadian economist, entrepreneur, and retired politician who served as the 22nd Prime Minister of Canada, from February 6, 2006, to November 4, 2015. Wikipedia.
This faux politician took some political duties very lightly especially records on the environment and ordered, allowed the throwing out of decades of historic records.
(Thought, when that mixture of economist, entrepreneur etc shows up in some pollies CV, pass them by.)
The date of the census was set very simply. It is simply five years after the previous one. It was the postponement of the 2011 version to 2013 that was different.
Shaw has been in the job for nearly five months now. Thus the bulk of the organising will have been done since he got the responsibility and he has had plenty of time to see that it runs properly. It’s his baby and if it gets screwed up its his fault.
Someone like Twyford in Housing can justifiably blame the preceding Government for a full term. That is, as long as he can show that improvements are taking place and there is some real progress by that time. If there are only a trivial increase in houses during the first term he deserves to be kicked but he cannot be expected to have solved all the problems in 3 years.
Not so with Shaw and the Census. Any problems were caused while he was in charge and he should, justifiably carry the can for anything that goes wrong. Hopefully, of course, everything will go smoothly.
Hopefully.
It has been 128 days since swearing in of this Government on 26 October 2017 so this hardly equates to “been in the job for nearly five months now”. I’ll give you a bonus point for effort though.
Have you got first-hand experience with organising the Census or are you simply making wild claims & accusations?
You also seem to like playing the blame-game; do you think this is helpful in any way, shape or form?
Right & despite all the so called confidentiality somehow we have this large data base for “social investment” that was created without anyone having a say so people can be tracked . we should believe you??
Having had some years ago the experience of our local community newsletter publishing the data from our local mesh blocks to find I was pretty much identifiable even the old system had massive flaws.
And of course the Statistics act can be changed by any future government to give themselves access to the data???
Hi Baron, I don’t mind if you believe me or not. I don’t care how many languages are spoken in your house or the age of the occupants.
I feel the information gathered is a very useful tool for planning for our country’s future. Where will we need new schools in 10 years, how many effected by a 1 metre sea rise etc. If you disagree with me, yes I can see how you would feel any information requested of you would be unnecessary delving into your private life.
Yes a government could change the privacy laws as they relate to the Statistics Act at will. Just as they could ban recreational fishing, like a fool, I still bought a new reel.
I understand much of the data for Social Investment was gathered from Work and Income. Again, personally, I’ve found that having as much information as possible prior to formulating a plan has assisted me in making better decisions. If I could identify a region where there are many unemployed youth not in training and a shortage of housing I feel it’s an effective way of determining where I should be establishing a Trades Polytech.
Okay so we can agree it’s not particularly confidential.
As to being a useful planning tool for the countries future , There is plenty of information available of the type you are discussing on other data bases.
And FYI the questions about house ownership were first put in about 15 years ago at the instigation of the IRD who plan only how to collect taxes.
But note there are not too many questions in there trying to measure the aggregation of wealth in the hands of How many???
It doesn’t ask how many houses people own, or the number of hectares of land so how can we make good decisions with slanted information? Does it ask people how many times they have been downsized or laid off . What is their workplace attitude to unions?
It doesn’t ask businesses about how many jobs they have outsourced or their pay bands. whether they have moved jobs off to Auckland or not?
And you say social investment is taken from MSD – but it was a great deal more than that. And why is it only okay to see social investment or cost around MSD. It’s then just bash a beneficiary database. What about tax cheats , those who minimise taxes or go to private schools with large subsidies?? Massive costs to the community.
With the large amount of data now collected from other sources and over shared the census is just another excessive intrusion.
So many people will be missed off the 2018 census.
Many homeless people I work alongside have no access to computers or home addresses where paperwork can be delivered. They also missed out on voting last year.
And many elderly people with no computers and little support from families able to assist have just given up.
At the library where I work, staff were expecting an influx of people using library computers to fill in the census forms – so far it doesn’t seem to have happened.
So, I am wondering also if many less well of people won’t complete a census form.
Last night I submitted an online request for a paper form – I don’t trust submitting that much of my info from my internet connection. At the end it said allow a week for delivery of the forms. Well, it took at least a week for them to collect my last census form (2013?) – even though I completed it on census night.
No-one mentioned one of the obvious ways to recoup some costs. As the Insurance Council says, this is no accident. Fossil fuel companies and those who’ve attacked science and scientists are responsible for this crime.
They’re not causing global warming. They’re contributing to it on a very large scale without taking meaningful steps to mitigate the environmental damage.
Actually, the charge should be mass murder because that’s what these companies that are actively opposing change that will stop our contribution to climate change. That’s what they’re actually doing – committing mass murder.
“We will put tariffs on Harley-Davidson, on bourbon and on blue jeans – Levi’s.
“We are here and they will get to know us. We would like a reasonable relationship to the United States, but we cannot simply put our head in the sand.”
Katainen, who is also the former prime minister of Finland, points out that protectionism helped to create the Great Depression of the 1930s.
The causes of the Great Depression were complex but protectionism wasn’t one of them:
One thing you hear all the time is that protectionism caused the Great Depression. I’ve always seen this as an attempt at a Noble Lie; there’s no good reason to believe that it’s true, but it has been used to scare governments into maintaining relatively free trade.
But the truth is quite different, as a new paper by Barry Eichengreen and Doug Irwin shows. Protectionism was a result of the Depression, not a cause. Rising tariffs didn’t even play a large role in the initial trade contraction; like the spectacular trade contraction in the current crisis, the decline in trade in the early 30s was overwhelmingly the result of the overall economic implosion. Where protectionism really mattered was in preventing a recovery in trade when production recovered.
So let’s tell it like it was. If free trade is a good idea — which it mostly is — it should be sold on its genuine merits, not with scare stories.
In fact, when I was at Uni we were taught that trade in the early 20th century was freer than what we have now. So, it’s more accurate to say that free-trade caused the Great Depression.
“In fact, when I was at Uni we were taught that trade in the early 20th century was freer than what we have now. So, it’s more accurate to say that free-trade caused the Great Depression.”
Meh…go to a new start point and you could argue the opposite….the point of interest is the impact on the current situation of a trade war…and irrespective of the original cause the impact will not be positive (at least in the short term)
The markets are a time bomb waiting for a trigger…..
Self styled “independent journalist”, Vanessa Beeley makes the slaughter of civilians acceptable, drawing a laugh from her credulous audience by making the suffering of babies and their desperate caregivers subject for ridicule.
Here’s Vanessa Beeley’s response to a piece on her Bristol presentation by Clara Connolly (that the Amr Salahi piece appears to lean on quite heavily)
Worth noting that she characterises the SSUK as a hard-line proponent of regime change in Syria, promoting active intervention by NATO state powers, including a Libya-style no-fly zone. Its narrative assumes a ‘popular revolution’, the total veracity of Western propaganda, and the validity of propaganda constructs like the White Helmets.
In other words, the SSUK promotes the self same line as interventionist western governments.
And I haven’t ever met a Marxist Leninist who would have anything good to say about Stalin btw, so fuck knows where Amr Salahi gets that line from. 🙂 But if Marxist Leninists are barely distinguishable from fascists, then what of the Trot orgs that are full on behind western interventionism? They obviously don’t “love Assad’s work”.
So, where’s the fascism residing? Or is it just one of those lazy pieces of bullshit you like to throw at people who’s politics you don’t like, understand, or oppose?
…I haven’t ever met a Marxist Leninist who would have anything good to say about Stalin…
And I haven’t ever met one who accepted that the murderous totalitarian regimes instituted by Marxist-Leninists last century had anything to do with Marxism-Leninism, nor one who would fail to defend those very same regimes (eg, “the Red Army saved Europe from the Nazis!”).
So, where’s the fascism residing?
In supporting the violent overthrow of democratic government and its replacement with the absolute authority of a political party with totalitarian aims, an expansionist outlook and a ruthless willingness to crush dissent, maybe? I get that Marxist-Leninists like to pretend that’s not their aim, but given that it’s been the outcome every time they’ve had a go at it, what they say their aims are counts for shit. It’s results that count.
If it’s no surprise that Marxist/ Leninists would “love Assad’s work” (being that they’re fascist and all) then how would you explain the position of the no less fascist Trots who call for Assad’s overthrow?
Assad and the Syrian government were voted into office btw. And their election process (whatever the faults) was much more legitimate and more widely participated in than that for Poroshenko of Ukraine.
I do find it odd how liberals in general seem to have no problem with Poroshenko – and that in spite of the Ukrainian governments overt fascism (not “indistinguishable” from, but actual) – while routinely calling for the violent overthrow of a government in a country where the country’s armed forces are slogging it out against the supposed no. 1 enemy of western governments and even (some say) western ideas of civilisation.
It wouldn’t be they so thoughtlessly and eagerly buy into the “evil Russia” line of neo-cons and liberal interventionists that even thought becomes an enemy lest it renders the veil of western benevolence and humanitarian virtue to reveal a monster – that might not really be so distinguishable from fascism. It’s just a thought.
The point I was challenged on was “there are parts of the left barely distinguishable from fascists.” I’ve explained the basis for that claim, ie parts of the left “…supporting the violent overthrow of democratic government and its replacement with the absolute authority of a political party with totalitarian aims, an expansionist outlook and a ruthless willingness to crush dissent…”
I didn’t address the fact that some of these leftist totalitarians disagree with other leftist totalitarians on some things because I don’t see how it’s relevant to my point.
I do find it odd how liberals in general seem to have no problem with Poroshenko – and that in spite of the Ukrainian governments overt fascism (not “indistinguishable” from, but actual) – while routinely calling for the violent overthrow of a government in a country where the country’s armed forces are slogging it out against the supposed no. 1 enemy of western governments and even (some say) western ideas of civilisation.
It ceases to become odd if you take into account that liberals don’t accept your framing.
…lest it renders the veil of western benevolence and humanitarian virtue to reveal a monster – that might not really be so distinguishable from fascism.
OK, now it’s your turn. How might liberal democracy not really be so distinguishable from fascism?
The pretty obvious inference from your comment, and the one I questioned, was that (barely distinguishable from) fascists are supportive of fascists (ie – in your view, the Syrian government).
But you can’t explain why Trots (no less barely distinguishable than Marxist Leninist’s) wish to see the overthrow of the very same Syrian government.
I’m happy enough to enter into a discussion on liberalism and fascism once you’ve cleared that one up in some way that makes sense.
It already makes sense if you take it as written rather than inferring things from it. As written:
…there are parts of the left barely distinguishable from fascists. Not surprised they love Assad’s work.
So:
1. Parts of the left share features of fascism.
2. So does the Assad regime.
3. Therefore it’s not surprising if they support Assad.
You seem to be assuming that if you present a leftist totalitarian group opposed to Assad, my argument (being generous to it) above is refuted. I don’t see how – my conclusion leaves open the possibility of not all leftist totalitarian groups supporting Assad. In fact, you’d be mad to treat leftist totalitarians as monolothic, they seem to hate other factions more than they hate capitalism. It’s not hard to see why Trotskyists would hate a Stalinist outfit like the Baath Party, just as its not hard to see how the Stalinists would be keen on the Baath Party. In short, I’m not seeing your point.
The Ba’ath Party formed as a separate entity to the existing Communist Party of the time. It’s very much about Arab identity and anti-colonialism. So it really is a stretch to suggest it has Stalinist roots or is currently Stalinist.
That aside.
We’ve got to the point where, in spite of your original comment to the contrary, it actually can be surprising if parts of the left barely distinguishable from fascists support the Syrian government.
And that’s leaving aside how fascist or not fascist the Syrian government may be.
The concept “not surprising if this group of authoritarians likes a particular authoritarian regime” is not incompatible with the concept “but perhaps this other group of authoritarians doesn’t like that particular authoritarian regime.” That was as true this morning as it is this evening, so we haven’t really got to any point with this baffling dispute.
A difference between your first comment and your latest one is that you’ve (potentially) put yourself in the picture. 😉
From ‘fascists’ (or barely distinguishable from) to simply and much more broadly ‘those with a penchant to follow’.
And that cuts up the same in the bigger picture, no matter which side’s mast any liberal, leftist or fascist authoritarian may choose to pin their colours to.
Whatever. For my part, the idea that enthusiasts for totalitarianism might favour an authoritarian dictatorship over liberal democracies shouldn’t be a controversial one.
Also: a cubic zirconium is “barely distinguishable” from a diamond. That doesn’t make it a diamond. If we’re going to get pedantic about definitions, let’s do it properly.
Your idea isn’t controversial. The bit your missing is that authoritarianism (fascism as far as this exchange is concerned) lies in the act of following. And as far as that’s true, the seeds of fascism already exist in liberal democracy where we’re habituated to the idea of following. All that’s required then, is some particular set of circumstances for fascism to flourish.
In terms of Syria (and this feeds somewhat into the stuff Sabine was saying) it’s then incidental whether support is lent to something characterised as authoritarian or not.
What matters is that support is being lent; that people representing grand ideas are being followed. That gifts the “high priests” of whatever political ideology the power and ability to extend their power and to bomb, maim and create general misery to achieve that end.
Some Stalinist supporting the Syrian government is not in a position that’s any different to some granny McTavish supporting western governments, or to some East London kid supporting whatever Army of God.
It’s all the same unless a position of exceptionalism is mounted for “our team” – which is kinda what everyone who supports a, b or c tends to do. And so the hellish mess roils on.
Jenny
Why don’t you submit a post separately from Open Mike
A lot of readers just aren’t interested and the subject seems to attract a lot of trollish ad hominem responses.
Those who aren’t interested would be spared the inconvenience of wading through a lot of inflammatory retorts
I myself don’t agree with you but am willing to enter into debate without rancour
I don’t blame people for resenting the ugliness that appears on these threads, from all sides
I’ll be moderating pretty tightly, but I think people got the message yesterday that the abuse and personalised attacks have to stop. Jenny has the same rights to post in OM as anyone else, so long as she doesn’t spam the site, and keeps within the rules herself.
If on the other hand you are wanting these comments generally to happen outside of OM, check out Antoine’s suggestion below. I’d welcome feedback on that.
Are the conversations themselves the problem, or is it how people are engaging?
Open Mike is for people to discuss whatever interests them. It’s never going to be the case that every thread of conversation is to everyone’s liking (not their cuppa).
The reason no posts have gone up about Syria (just speaking for myself here, but besides CV, I’m not really aware of who else was putting up Syria posts), is that engagement as thoughtless personal abuse, always coming from the same predictable quarters, alongside the same old debunked lines getting recycled ad nauseam was just too much of an arse to be bothered with.
It’s all very well for you to criticise other commenters. But what you are missing, is that the problem this site has with Syria discussions, is in large part your fault.
You lose your rag, abuse people and (if it’s your thread) hand out bans.
Even today, the day after the Open Mike splurgle, here you are launching into PM with “Or is it just one of those lazy pieces of bullshit you like to throw at people who’s politics you don’t like, understand, or oppose?”
As people should now be able to see, I’m taking a zero tolerance position on attacking authors. I’ve been talking about this issue for some time, including that having authors willing to write here is a priority for the site (that’s not just my thing btw, it’s a concern of all the authors). It looks like some people still aren’t listening to that, so expect some of those bans to not have personalised warnings.
To be very blunt, authors are way more important than commenters (for what should be bloody obvious reasons).
If you want to talk about moderation or an author, you need to learn to do so in respectful, no inflammatory ways. If you are unsure, ask. If you are still unsure, then just don’t say anything, or take your risk.
Weka, I accept that authors are important to the health and ongoing vitality of the site. No argument. However, they’re not flawless and they do sometimes need to have inconsistencies or unfairnesses pointed out. When an author who often makes personal attacks complains about personal abuse, what would you see as a reasonable response?
[deleted]It’s possible to respond to disagreement without being abusive, but the shoot first, take no prisoners approach can set up an aggressive dynamic that isn’t helpful and doesn’t promote a genuine exchange of views.
I suggest you try running that argument past Lynn and see how you get on. I also suggest you spend some time looking at historical moderations done by Lynn and then try telling him that he needs to reflect on his personal style. I learned this as a commenter. There are ways to talk about moderation e.g. ask questions, but as soon as you start telling the authors what to do like you have just done, then there is a problem.
Read the Policy. Commenters don’t get to tell authors how to run the site.
You may think that authors need to have unfairness pointed out but you are still missing some fundamentals. One is don’t attack authors. Even naming an author like you just have is hard to see as anything other than having another go at them based on your own views. It is still in breach of the Policy as far as I am concerned, particularly because you have been banned for this in the past in a situation where an author was being attacked on a number fronts. You could have asked some questions about moderation without naming an author so I’m basically going wtf? at this point.
As I have said, I don’t care what problems someone has with an author, if they can’t respect these boundaries then they are going to cop a ban.
Instead of banning you I’m going to edit your post, but please take this as a warning. Stop having a go at authors. If you don’t like any commenters style, then don’t engage with them and talk to other people instead. Respect moderation and the authors is the best way to get an improvement on TS.
I’m just going to say again, that while moderators try to be evenhanded, ‘fairness’ isn’t the top priority and the sooner the commenters get this the better. Moderation is often about limiting the amount of time an author has to spend moderating. I learnt that from Lynn btw.
So how about replying to the question, then? What would you see as a reasonable response? It’s a genuine question and I think it’s a genuine issue for this site.
Just saying “avoid that author” doesn’t work when any author can moderate any discussion and start dropping personal attack into their comments, and that is the dynamic that was being discussed here.
Right, so instead of acknowledging the moderation and explanations, you’re now demanding an answer and more time from me.
here it is again. Walk away. If you don’t have the wherewithal to engage with any commenter in a way you are ok with, then don’t. .
It’s nothing to do with authors, it’s about how you are engaging here. I saw it in the comments that led to your ban and I am seeing it here now.
TS isn’t fair in the way you want it to be. The robust debate ethic takes priority over fairness. But it is possible to be here if one learns the boundaries. I’ve spent a great deal of time in the past 2 days explaining that and you are still not listening.
Fwiw, I think you would make a great author here. But instead of us talking about that, or doing something proactive about improving the site in ways that are real, here we are rehashing the same old bullshit.
For the last time. Don’t attack authors. Don’t tell us how to run the site. Don’t wast moderator time. Until you get that and abide by it, you don’t get to comment on how things here can be better by the site being run differently. By all means talk about how commenters can improve the place, that would impress me.
At the moment you are part of the problem. I really hope you turn this around for yourself, because I think you bring a lot to the site, but this is just getting ridiculous now and I’ve pretty much reached my limit.
“TS isn’t fair in the way you want it to be. The robust debate ethic takes priority over fairness. But it is possible to be here if one learns the boundaries. I’ve spent a great deal of time in the past 2 days explaining that and you are still not listening.”
Hi weka, I’ve just copied and pasted part of what you said to red-blooded above that was important to me. Thanks for explaining the aim of moderation, I have probably been one who hasn’t got the jist of moderation for a while.
Perhaps, if I’m understanding correctly if moderation is firstly seen as a way of stopping or cleaning up debate that has gone off the rails. Any bans coming from that shouldn’t be seen in the light of a bias for or against certain people, but instead primarily as a way to put a stop to bad behaviour asap.
It has been very helpful to me anyway that you’ve outlined what the moderators are trying to do and where you are coming from.
I would like to talk a bit more around the “bias” issue of moderation that doesn’t sit quite right with me, but I’m not sure if it’s safe for me to go there?
Yes, it’s mostly about behaviour where that behaviour is causing problems for the site (which can mean various things).
Often there are factors in that that are unapparent to other commenters.
A big part of it is the time moderation takes. So often decisions are about limiting the amount of time that needs to be spend on moderating. We’re volunteers here, and time spent moderating is time not writing posts or enjoying the discussion.
There also seems to be a misconception that commenters have the same rights here as authors. They don’t.
Re talking about bias, I’m personally ok for now if that’s a general conversation about principles e.g. whether moderation should or shouldn’t be bias free. I don’t think you can talk about specifics though, because I don’t trust the commentariat to not make it an attack on authors/moderation. Asking questions is good, telling the site how it should be run is off limits.
I fully understand that moderating probably isn’t fun and the less time wasted on it the better. Probably easy to forget too that the mods are volunteers, will have to remind myself of that I think.
The bias thing is probably to do with the fairness thing. If a mod steps in and someone is banned then it can look like they are taking a side and I wonder if that could cause distrust in the commentariat. That’s essentially my concern.
Thanks Bill. Even if it were my area, I wouldn’t be putting up posts about Syria either. For the same reasons. However I see the abuse and bullshit in those conversations as coming from all sides. Some of it is around the politics, but a lot is around the commentariat’s behaviour. So I agree with you that the main problem is how people are engaging. I’m hoping that the tighter moderation will help with that.
“Open Mike is for people to discuss whatever interests them. It’s never going to be the case that every thread of conversation is to everyone’s liking (not their cuppa).”
I agree and I can’t for instance see a problem with Jenny having made two comments today. But where a topic dominates OM to the extent it is putting people off, that’s a problem. If the quality of debate improves, maybe it ceases to be a problem.
But it’s possible for the quality of debate to not improve even with people stopping the more obvious abuse stuff, in which case the problem is just one of quantity. I’m thinking more of the US election where it was the sheer volume of comments that became a problem and so we temporarily provide another space for those conversations so that OM could be a good place for people not interested in them.
Am happy enough to see if it settles down for now though. It would probably help if we had more posts going up (on other topics).
The bullshit and nonsense comes from all sides. I didn’t mean to suggest it was limited.
And yes. More posts. I’ve been quiet, but then (too often) I come to the site and see…well, stuff like I saw yesterday. And it’s fucking disheartening.
Totally. I’m feeling like that too, like what is the point. I’ve stopped trying to find new authors in the meantime. I can see it would be even harder for you because the topics you tend to write on are more likely to get this whole polarised, aggravated shit going on. I still tend to not write on the topics that I know will be more work for me in the comments 🙁
But the article itself doesn’t bear out the claim made in the headline. The closest we get to “children’s trauma is a laughing matter” is the claim of “70 people laughing at a premature baby caught up in a deadly airstrike and the traumatized medical staff rescuing him.”
But then, there was no premature baby (there was the corpse of a baby). There was no air strike. There are no medical staff rescuing him.
You might disagree with that. But that would most definitely be what Vanessa Beeley was presenting as reality in the face of, what she claims to be ghoulish propaganda.
So to claim there were 70 people laughing at a premature baby caught up in a deadly airstrike and the traumatized medical staff rescuing him. is bullshit no matter how you want to cut it.
And yes, I’ve seen that footage of the dead baby being taken from the incubator and presented as alive. It’s sickening.
I disagree with Beeley’s broader politics, but there’s no questioning her motivation and heart when it comes to her Syria reporting. Time and again, despite not inconsiderable effort being put into discrediting and silencing Beeley, Bartlett and others, they have been shown to be correct time after time.
It took a while, but some mainstream journalists like Fisk and Cockburn got to publishing actual journalistic pieces in mainstream outlets (some of Fisk’s reports were from within Syria) among all the stenography of government propaganda that passes itself off as journalism across the liberal interventionist media of “ours”.
The closest we get to “children’s trauma is a laughing matter” is the claim of “70 people laughing at a premature baby caught up in a deadly airstrike and the traumatized medical staff rescuing him.”
But then, there was no premature baby (there was the corpse of a baby). There was no air strike. There are no medical staff rescuing him.
Might well be so. That doesn’t make these arseholes any different from the ones on Whaleoil deriding “Pallywood” propaganda every time the Palestinians fake video of Israeli atrocities. The fact it’s a fake doesn’t make them less of an arsehole for their derision of the people suffering the attacks.
We have no idea what occasioned the laughter or what form the laughter took. Was it belly laughing? Was it dark and painful? Did it even happen?
All we know with any certainty (at least those who have paid any attention to Beeley), is that what was written in that article on the laughter front is bullshit.
The claims of derision and what not is baseless speculation on your part.
edit – the vid will be available at some apparently.
Kia ora weka. Criticism taken. To expand on the point I was trying to make; It is my honest opinion that Muhammad Najeem is similar to Ahed Tamimi, in that Muhammad, like Ahed, both use the internet and social media, to hold a mirror up to show to the world the naked face of the entity that is killing his friends and family and intent on reasserting it’s brutal rule over his community and suburb.
From July 2010, (the year that I was there), Nadim Houry describes the same repressive pressure cooker police state society that I personally saw and have tried to describe.
As Human Rights Watch’s researcher for Syria, I have interviewed many of the Syrians who in good faith and sincere hope for their country’s future took up the mantle of criticism and democratisation, and were arrested as a consequence. They include a former member of parliament who Syria’s rulers decided was too “independent”; human rights lawyers who denounced rampant torture by the country’s notorious security services; bloggers who criticised everyday corruption; and Kurdish activists who demanded official recognition of their language. (Assad’s human rights record is reviewed in a new Human Rights report here.)
Nadim Houry is Human Rights Watch’s senior researcher for Syria and Lebanon, and director of the Beirut office. Previously, he has worked as deputy counsel for the UN investigation into the UN Oil-for-Food Programme (the Volcker Commission) and as a lawyer at Shearman & Sterling.
Jenny, how do you feel about all of the innocents who voted for Assad, and who have been killed and maimed by western forces along with the ‘moderate rebels’ backed by the west, Saudi/Isreal with weapons, training and funding..
What are your thoughts and feelings about ‘the other side’ of the story….
You sure that wouldn’t be the Bana of Eastern Ghouta?
Y’know, the seven year old girl who was exploited to the max by her Jihadist parents during the occupation of Eastern Aleppo (and afterwards), whose every word and pronouncement our glorious mainstream media swallowed and regurgitated with not the merest hint of inquiry or doubt being allowed to enter into the picture?
You remember her, surely?!
Why Ahed Tamimi and not that most obvious of comparisons?
[Ah. I see. Thankyou for making it abundantly clear that both you and OAB are trolling. Given all the moderation notes from yesterday (that you no doubt saw, and just tough luck if you didn’t) I can only assume you have no respect for moderation, moderators, the time put in to it, or even much concern for the site. Either that or you’re simply incredibly stupid. Regardless. One week ban] – Bill
so is then everything she said wrong? I never followed the girl, i don’t follow anyone for that matter, but really what i would like to know is simple. Is what she said wrong, or is it right, but does not mesh with whom you are currently supportive of?
Are russian bombs more benevolent the n US bombs?
Is being killed by turkish forces more rightous then being killed by Assads forces.
And above all, would any of the armchair warriors, or those that subscribe to the 101st keyboard brigade have actually any idea what really is going other then utter destruction of property and live by all sides?
Or has Syria, much like Iraq in 2003 just simply become a pissing match between people who have actually no idea of anything, but want to be right!!!! And atm Russia good, but US bad – while as the past has shown on more then one occasion neither Russia – the government and ruling class – nor the US – again government and ruling class – give a flying fuck about Syrians, Iraqis, Lebanese, Jemenis, Afghanis, Palestinians or even their own Citizens? Where will that leave us? We have to take sides, and are not allowed to point out that blimey, but really, the Syrians might really not care at all which foreign force is doing the killing, just get the fuck out and let us be?
Syria does have and has had since the 1970s an alliance with Russia though. All Russian forces in Syria have been invited by the Syrian Government.
The US forces and NATO,UK,Saudi US funded terrorists? Not so much
And how legitimate is a Syrian government that is a hereditary military dictatorship? People don’t find it hard to work out in the case of North Korea.
Right – so Assad’s dad wasn’t a military dictator and his dad wasn’t either – good to know.
“In schools, children were taught to sing songs of adulation about Hafez al-Assad. Teachers began each lesson with the song “Our eternal leader, Hafez al-Assad”.
Assad’s grandfather wasn’t president of Syria. Here’s a link to Syrian Presidents. if you look at it really closely, you’ll see that even under Baathist one party rule (there are now multi-party elections) there are five Presidents with different surnames.
The Gulf Cooperation Council, the European Union and the United States dismissed the election as illegitimate. Attempts to hold an election under the circumstances of an ongoing civil war were criticized by UN secretary general Ban Ki-moon, and it was widely reported that the elections lacked independent election monitoring.
You mean the very institutions and groupings that are seeking to overthrow the government of Syria dismissed the government elections as illegitimate?! Well, well, well.
“the EU doesn’t want the Syrian government replaced”
Well of course the EU wants the Syrian government replaced – it’s a hereditary military dictatorship. Any reasonably progressive group wants it replaced.
The EU changes the character of the endorsement however – the US has been known to subordinate humanitarian policy to imperial policy – as Russia does. And often they can take the UN with them – especially when more progressive nations have round-heeled and backward regimes like Key’s. The EU neither has particularly expansionist foreign policy nor is it reliably a US poodle.
The reference to God save the Queen was merely in response to you being apparently aghast at school kids being encouraged to nurture or exhibit a sense of adulation.
I could have picked up on US school children “saluting” the flag every morning. Same thing. Adulation.
“Eternal leadership” is at odds with pretending to any kind of democracy. The Poms have a workaround by running their monarch in parallel to the current government. But the Assads are more dynastic, like the Kims.
The tweets purporting to come from seven year old Bana were in fact written by her Jihadist mother (Bana, unlike her mother, speaks very, very little English), contained very adult concepts and invariably reflected the regime change narrative of western governments.
But it was good propaganda to have all this stuff seeming to come from a seven year old girl.
There have been questions asked as to whether the tweets could even have been coming from East Aleppo given cell phone and net coverage issues. All I know for sure is that Bana’s family showed up in Turkey straight after the recapture of Eastern Aleppo having a private audience/photo op with Erdogan.
as i said, i don’t follow this. I have long given up trying to find reason in war, no matter who drops the bombs.
What i do know is that neither you nor i live there, and that the women writing the tweets has more rights to an opinion then you do. She is living there, she has seen her country be blown to rubble, her live upended to never return, friends die. This is something that you can’t just ‘brush’ aside as propaganda – btw, propaganda that you don’t support 🙂 – that is her reality, even if you don’t support her politics.
I don’t support either side, i want all sides to get the fuck out and go home. That includes the Russians, the Turks, the US, and any other band of merry mercenary that is there to make a killing.
We- and yes, WE die (cause they would do the same to us if they find enough reason in it) and the weapon manufacturers laugh all the way to the bank, while people discuss whose bombs are more righteous.
The woman had and has the right to say whatever she wants.
The right to exploit a seven year old child in order that what she says gets carried in lead news stories in the west? Not so much.
And as is the case with anyone saying anything, it’s helpful to know who they are and where they’re coming from. Stuff isn’t neutral.
So a woman who’s just a citizen in a war zone saying stuff is very different to a Jihadist saying stuff where they are directly responsible for the war.
And a Jihadist saying stuff but passing themselves off as just a citizen ought to be “called out”. Using a seven year old girl into the bargain just compounds the deceit.
(And yes, it’s fairly well established that Bana’s parents were jihadists engaged in combat)
edit – I agree wholeheartedly that all groups “messing” in peoples’ lives (whether government approved/sanctioned or not) should fuck off and disappear, never to be seen again.
I don’t know. I don’t pretend to know what they think, but i would assume that they are tired of the destruction of their country and that if they could vote they would want anyone who comes with bombs, death and destruction and excuses for bombs death and destruction to fuck off.
But again, i don’t know what they want, i am not a syrian.
“if they could vote”
They did vote. In 2014. A 80something% turnout. 77% voted for the present government and President.
Mind, this was 2 years into the war so I guess they chose the party and leader they felt most capable of ridding the country of the mercenary headchoppers.
I don’t know every Syrian in Syria, but those I do know most certainly want all ‘who comes with bombs, death and destruction and excuses for bombs death and destruction to fuck off.’
if you do know that, than i don’t know what your comment to me was about.
Again, i don’t have a side in this, i am not affected by this – other then being a human who is very much against the dropping of bombs in order to win a pissing match.
And i consider the bullshit between Russia and the US nothing more a pissing match at the very least and at the very worst a positioning for geopolitical influence in which the locals are the ones offered up for slaughtered in order to win a suburb, a neighborhood, or as it was said a long time ago, nothing new on the western front.
Wouldn’t we all Sabine.
Not only that but for all the foreign backers of various groups to shut their wallets and their arms transfers
For all the uninvited powers licking their lips at the prospect of the spoils of war to be divvied up ,to fuck off and once and for all leave the MENA alone.
And while we’re at it , arms dealing made illegal
Shut down the arms trade and we might see a bit of traction.
Meanwhile, whats the Syrian govt to do?
Roll over and let , for instance the Saudi funded militants in East Ghouta keep on firing hell cannons and mortars in to schools and residential areas in Damascus?
How about leaning on the Saudis to lean on their protogees in E Ghouta to stop firing on humanitarian corridors created to allow civilians to get the hell out?
You sure that wouldn’t be the Bana of Eastern Ghouta?…..
……Why Ahed Tamimi and not that most obvious of comparisons?
Bill
Kia ora Bill. You are not the first to raise that comparison.
And I agree, it is apt one.
Najem is not the first to take to Twitter to call attention to the plight of civilians in Syria. In the fall of 2016, Bana al-Abed, then 7 years old, attracted thousands of followers when she began tweeting with the help of her mother about her life in Aleppo, where her family struggled to survive during the siege.
But she faced intense criticism, even after many of her photos and videos were verified and her story corroborated by other residents. Some doubted she was in Aleppo at all, others suggested she was being used as a propaganda tool to push the rebel agenda. At the time, Aleppo was sealed off to Western journalists and there was no way to verify the details of her story. Still, her mother Fatemah defended her decision to open the account. “We decided to go to Twitter because of direct access to the world,” she told the New York Times in October, saying that she wanted to raise awareness about their hardships in Syria.
I think Jenny’s position is quite clear Ad from the first comment she made on Open Mike yesterday where she posted an open letter to the Russian Consulate in Auckland calling for a Russia to actively support a humanitarian ceasefire. https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02-03-2018/#comment-1455893
I have to say I agree with her stance
There are many here who, for what ever reason I cannot fathom, do not.
Macro
The ceasefire does not cover ISIS, Al Queda, ALNusra or affiliated groups. The Saudi sponsored Army of Islam and the Qatari sponsored Failak al Rahman share the territory with those forementioned terrorist designated groups
Its that problem of “separation” again
So Russia is called upon to rein in the Iranians and Syrians, but are the Sauds and Qataris being called upon to rein in their protogees?
So far I have not heard of such a thing.
For the ceasefire to work , ALL parties signed up to it must comply, not just one side.
The main armed groups in eastern Ghouta sent a letter to the U.N. Security Council on Tuesday saying they were ready to abide by the cease-fire and guarantee protection for aid convoys to their areas.
Representatives of Jaish al-Islam, Failaq al-Rahman and Ahrar al-Sham also agreed to expel, within 15 days of the truce going into effect, elements of banned groups Hay’at Tahrir al-Sham, the Nusra Front and al-Qaida who have taken refuge in eastern Ghouta.
Good old Voice of America eh?
And so the Qataris and Saudis and Turks in the case of Ahrar al Sham have been told to leverage their protogees to comply?
Which was my point.
And I say good luck to them in their turf wars with al Queda , Al Nusra,and Hay’at Tahrir al-Sham.
Nice guys ,all of them , salafists and sharia law fanatics
I’m SURE they’ll abide peacefully
and their promise to expel those banned groups is little more than a buying time device, as it was in Aleppo
Yes I’m sure RT is far more authoritative.
But AFAIK the UN has not denied the report of the letter.
Meanwhile: http://www.unocha.org/syria
13.1M People in need of humanitarian assistance
5.6M People who fled the country
6.1M People internally displaced by violence
What a lame line – oh you watch RT. Why don’t you just use the other attack lines against people – Russophile, Putain supporter or what your new one – that right, alt right. It would be at least a bit more honest.
But lets address RT, it has an editorial approach which is simple to understand, and then decode – it’s Pro-Russia. Bit like the BBC, with its pro British establishment stance. Sorted, watch RT know your getting Russian propaganda. However and I think you comment is a bit off becasue francesca raised concerns about head choppers and other groups of far right fundamentalist persuasion.
Coupled with the problem of their continued support by foreign governments. Instead you run with the line Russia did it. It’s a civil war – DID YOU MISS THAT. It’s messy as all hell, by its very nature. To yell and scream one side is bad guys just does not help. Try looking at the bigger picture rather than thinking the propaganda your spewing on here, is somehow better than anyone else’s.
For the record just in case you forgot – the only people I support in all this mess in the Kurds, and they are being attacked by the Turkish government and far right fundamentalist as we speak.
17 Kurds were killed by Turkish air force dropping bombs yesterday. No ceasefire there.
@ Adam and 12
francesca wanted to deny the report by diminishing it, implying that anything from Voice of America could not be taken seriously.
Nowhere has the UN denied the word of their spokes person Jan Egeland, the Special Advisor to the UN Special Envoy for Syria.
Russia and Syria are promoting delaying tactics to implementing a ceasefire, in a fight where millions of people are in a humanitarian crisis – even thought Russia has agreed to the UN resolution of a ceasefire.
In fact the ceasefire resolution does address the groups francesca mentioned. The main offenders during the 5 hour ceasefire were not from those groups, but bombing and chlorine gas attacks by Syrian forces.
This is a conflict that has been ongoing for 8 years now. It will not be settled by fighting, and to continually ignore the plight of noncombatants is an indictment on all of us.
Adam – whataboutism is not a logical argument, and this fact has been pointed out to you before.
12 – if you doubt the validity of the statistics – I suggest you take that up with the UN.
I’m not the one showing bias 12.
The figures I quote are taken directly from the UN. If you have a problem with that then as I suggested above – take it up with them.
I suggest you take a few minutes to actually read the most recent report on the crisis as described by the UN.
Here is some of that report here:
About the Crisis
Share|
As the Syria crisis enters its seventh year, civilians continue to bear the brunt of a conflict marked by unparalleled suffering, destruction and disregard for human life. 13.1 million people require humanitarian assistance, including close to 3 million people in need trapped in besieged and hard-to-reach areas, where they are exposed to grave protection threats.
Over half of the population has been forced from their homes, and many people have been displaced multiple times. Children and youth comprise more than half of the displaced, as well as half of those in need of humanitarian assistance. Parties to the conflict act with impunity, committing violations of international humanitarian and human rights law.
Among conflict-affected communities, life-threatening needs continue to grow. Neighbouring countries have restricted the admission of people fleeing Syria, leaving hundreds of thousands of people stranded in deplorable conditions on their borders. In some cases, these populations are beyond the reach of humanitarian actors.
my bold so you can see the statistic that has been quoted.
For more read the above link.
To see the figures I quoted above to franseca wrt to number leaving the country and internally displaced you need to follow that link that I posted there. Those too are figures given by the UN wrt Syria.
Do you understand that figures inside the UN report (accurate or not) have been contributed to by uninvited and illegal foreign invaders?…
So the UN is an uninvited invader?
The OCHA Syria Country Office works with other OCHA offices responding to the crisis inside Syria in Jordan and Turkey to support the development, implementation and monitoring of the 2016 Humanitarian Needs Overview (HNO) and Response Plan (HRP). These provide an overarching framework for the humanitarian response inside Syria from Damascus or across the Turkish and Jordanian borders, helping to prioritize resources for the most affected areas and people in need, increase access and response capacity and advocating for increased protection through more joined up responses across the three hubs (Syria, Jordan, Turkey).
The OCHA Syria Country Office operates from Damascus with sub-offices in UN hubs in Aleppo, Homs, Tartous and Quamishli.
Do you understand that innocents have been killed maimed displaced by uninvited and illegal foreign invaders?…
You do understand that the Assad regime is not innocent in the murder of it’s civilians?
The UN resolution para 7
“7. Reiterates its demand, reminding in particular the Syrian authorities, that all parties immediately comply with their obligations under international law, including international human rights law, as applicable, and international humanitarian law, including the protection of civilians as well as to ensure the respect and protection of all medical personnel and humanitarian personnel exclusively engaged in medical duties, their means of transport and equipment, as well as hospitals and other medical facilities, and to fully and immediately implement all provisions of all relevant Security Council resolutions;
Does your chronic and farcical bias allow to you accept that blatant ‘truth’…
I think you should be looking in the mirror when you say that. When you deny the resolutions of the 15 member states of the UN security council – including Russia and China. You deny the very people on the ground in Syria who beg for this cease fire. And in doing so you deny humanity.
I think it’s time for your bed time 12
Your comments are becoming more and more irrational and FYI “whataboutism” is not a valid form of argument.
I’ve laid out my argument clearly, Citizens of the world look to the UN to be involved and to help resolve matters of conflict and aid in areas of humanitarian crisis.
I’ve said my piece – mainly as an means of conveying information to the rest of the Standard community because I realise that any attempt at sensible discussion where you are involved is useless. Should you reply to this comment – don’t expect me to respond as I’m fed up with trying to reason to a closed mind.
As far as I’m aware, that ceasefire doesn’t have a start date. Most in the UN security council (I have no idea where China stood) originally wanted an immediate 30 day ceasefire. Russia vetoed because of that word “immediate’. In the end a 30 day ceasefire was agreed, but the date from when it should commence wasn’t fixed.
Meanwhile, opening up corridors for five hours a day isn’t a nothing. It’s certainly far more than was ever on offer for people similarly trapped in Mosul and (though constantly monkey-wrenched by the city’s occupying terrorists) worked for some residents of Aleppo.
And it’s certainly much, much more than anything Turkey is doing.
Security Council Demands 30-day Cessation of Hostilities in Syria to Enable Humanitarian Aid Delivery, Unanimously Adopting Resolution 2401 (2018) The Security Council, acting unanimously today, adopted a resolution demanding parties to Syria’s seven-year-long conflict to cease hostilities without delay for at least 30 consecutive days, ensuring a “durable humanitarian pause” to enable weekly humanitarian aid deliveries and medical evacuations of the critically sick and wounded.
By the terms of resolution 2401 (2018), the 15-member Council demanded that, immediately after the start of the cessation of hostilities, all parties would allow safe, unimpeded and sustained access each week for the humanitarian convoys of the United Nations and their implementing partners to all requested areas and populations — particularly the 5.6 million people in 1,244 communities in acute need and the 2.9 million in hard-to-reach and besieged locations, subject to standard United Nations security assessments. It also demanded that the United Nations and its partners be allowed to carry out safe, unconditional medical evacuations, based on medical need and urgency. https://www.un.org/press/en/2018/sc13221.doc.htm
Bill – it takes hours for a cease fire to be implemented. There has already been an attempt to institute a 5 hour cease-fire which saw continued if lesser firing and thus no possible chance for delivering humanitarian aid. According to the aid agencies currently waiting to deliver aid they need far more time than 5 hours for their convoys to get in and out safely certainly no time to evacuate the seriously wounded, etc. https://globalnews.ca/news/4056626/syria-war-five-hour-pauses-un/
as for China’s position:
MA ZHAOXU (China), condemning all acts of violence targeting civilians and civilian objects, welcomed the resolution’s unanimous adoption. The text contained several important elements including respect for Syria’s sovereignty and territorial integrity, the protection of civilians and ensuring delivery of humanitarian aid. Noting that China had played a constructive role in building the consensus, he said the text reflected the broadest possible consensus among Council members.
Ok the resolution is at the end of the link I gave above It’s a long worded document and I didn’t want to quote it in full preferring to use the preamble in the UN press release – which actually simple repeats in part the call for a ceasefire without delay.
Here is the first paragraph of the Resolution as agreed by the UN (there are a large number of humanitarian reasons listed as to why this ceasefire has been called and they precede the resolution):
“1. Demands that all parties cease hostilities without delay, and engage immediately to ensure full and comprehensive implementation of this demand by all parties, for a durable humanitarian pause for at least 30 consecutive days throughout Syria, to enable the safe, unimpeded and sustained delivery of humanitarian aid and services and medical evacuations of the critically sick and wounded, in accordance with applicable international law;
“Without delay” is an elastic term with regards time and preparation Macro. I think you’re missing that point.
If you read through the resolution, and beginning with the words following immediately after the words “without delay”, there are a number of demands that suggest rather open ended time scales and processes.
And (I guess) that why Russia, rightly or wrongly and for cynical or genuine reasons, vetoed the initial 72 hour time scale for the cessation of hostilities.
Yes I can see that “without delay” could be interpreted in that way – however the next phrase does suggest immediacy – “and engage immediately to ensure full and comprehensive implementation of this demand by all parties”. So instead of saying “ok! you have 72 hours to arrange the ceasefire” the resolution now says “Right you are to start immediately to arrange a ceasefire” I don’t think really that leaves a lot of wriggle room.
The sad fact is that despite this resolution Russia and Syria choose to ignore it.
Whether Russia and Syria are would have to be open to question seeing as how Russia could simply have vetoed it.
Were some actors, cynically or genuinely seeking a ceasefire off the back of a very quick implementation period? Were some actors, cynically or genuinely seeking a ceasefire off the back of a slower implementation period?
Perhaps there’s cynicism all round? Whatever, I doubt if there’s all round genuine intentions.
From a humanitarian point of view bill there certainly are people who are desperate for a ceasefire the aid agencies in support of the UN OCHA have truck convoys lined up ready to go whenever they get the clearance from the Syrian authorities.
see here:
UNDER-SECRETARY-GENERAL FOR HUMANITARIAN AFFAIRS AND
EMERGENCY RELIEF COORDINATOR, MARK LOWCOCK
BRIEFING TO THE SECURITY COUNCIL ON SYRIA
Thank you, Mr. President
We have received a lot of questions about resolution 2401, which you passed on
Saturday, and its demand for a cessation of hostilities, without delay, for at least 30
consecutive days throughout Syria.
I want to start today by answering the questions we have received.
– Is the United Nations ready to deliver to people who need humanitarian
assistance?
Yes. We have convoys ready to go to ten besieged and hard-to-reach locations. They
include a 45-truck convoy with aid for 90,000 people to Douma in eastern Ghouta.
– Are you ready to support medical evacuations from eastern Ghouta?
Yes. We are working very closely with the International Committee of the Red Cross, the
Syrian Arab Red Crescent and other health partners on that.
– Has Security Council resolution 2401 been implemented? Is there a ceasefire in
Syria?
No. And no.
Cheers A. I have been thinking the same thing e.g. like what we did for the US election. Tricky for a couple of reasons. Do all international comments go there? Where’s the line? That’s not an insurmountable problem, but needs thought.
It also presents some moderation issues in that initially at least it would require tight moderation. But doable I think and would probably increase the quality of rebate across the whole site.
I’d suggest a separation of pro-Russia/Assad and skeptical of Russia/Assad.
The true believers aren’t about to change their minds. Separate articles once a week should do it – without the argument neither group probably has a lot to say.
No way in hell am I considering putting up posts with content. The only thing I would consider doing is a generic post like we did with the US election.
And I can guarantee you that if we put up Notices and Features of both of those sides the arguments would continue under both posts.
I am hesitant to raise this as a possible example of how to divide up what currently goes into OM for fear of being hung, drawn and quartered … !!!
A certain blog based in Dunedin has a set of four daily posts, which actually seem to work quite well:
(EDIT. Damn – I really should attribute the quotes below to the blog – YourNZ. I read there but don’t comment but as PG is an early riser I find the topic posts he posts each morning a useful guide/shortcut to what the media topics of the morning are. LOL. Thanks PG).
Worldwatch For posting on events, news, opinions and anything of interest from around the world.
Media Watch Media Watch is a focus on New Zealand media, blogs and social media. You can post any items of interested related to media.
A primary aim here is to hold media to account in the political arena. A credible and questioning media is an essential part of a healthy democracy.
A general guideline – post opinion on or excerpts from and links to blog posts or comments of interest, whether they are praise, criticism, pointing out issues or sharing useful information.
Open Forum This post is open to anyone to comment on any topic that isn’t spam, illegal or offensive. All Your NZ posts are open but this one is for you to raise topics that interest you.
If providing opinions on or summaries of other information also provide a link to that information. Bloggers are welcome to summarise and link to their posts.
Comments worth more exposure may be repeated as posts.Comments from other forums can be repeated here, cut and paste is fine.
X is a mostly political and social issues blog but not limited to that, and views from anywhere on the political spectrum are welcome. Some ground rules:
If possible support arguments, news, points or opinions with links to sources and facts.
Please don’t post anything illegal, potentially defamatory or abusive.
General Chat “Is there any way we could have a thread for the more lightweight stuff like music and general chat?”
Do it here. Please no personal attacks or bickering. Anything abusive, provocative or inflammatory may be deleted.
That breakdown would seem to pretty much cover the various types of subjects that arise on OM. Obviously you would probably want to change the titles and if necessary /desirable Worldwatch could be further broken down. Also would suggest, examples for General Chat could include gardening (serious), and veganism (me stirring).
He doesn’t have the number of comments we get though so the moderation load is different. I’m not convinced this commentariat would be that good at understanding the different categories and where the best place to post is.
Also, 4 posts triples the amount of work for one author at a time we are thin on the ground.
I was more thinking about a temporary post, a few times a week, where those conversations can be directed.
For many & various reasons, it can be risky to speak up about anything to do with commenting & moderation here on TS but you welcomed feedback @ 4.2.2 so here goes.
I don’t think moving certain posts out of OM will lead much to an overall improvement. IMO one the issues is the style & tone of commenters and their (idiosyncratic) ways of debating; they will carry these with them wherever & whenever they go, here on TS, and elsewhere, assuming they don’t hide behind their alias and adopt a separate TS persona just here on and for TS …
Many commenters here on TS have been around for some time and in some cases this has raised antibodies with others. Antibodies don’t think; they simply react and bind to the target for destruction, the invader or the infection, by the immune system – the immune system in some cases being a larger posse group of commenters or the wider TS community of regular commenters. I’m very tempted to name names, by way of illustration, but I won’t because it is a general issue IMO and the people here are smart enough to realise what I’m referring to.
Moderating this behaviour, because that’s what it is, is almost a mission impossible IMO. Moderating is sometimes perceived, particularly by but not limited to the ones on the receiving end, as punitive, biased, unfair, etc. Sometimes people rejoice in a ban (of others, obviously) … By and large, moderation feels, to me, like a constant picking up of litter, dousing fires, policing, acting as an ambulance at the bottom of a cliff (or the only mature adult on a pre-school playground).
On the other hand, moderation also aims to make commenters aware of the effect their comments have on others, the overall debate and the general environment & atmosphere here. The moderators try to educate and appeal to self-moderation and self-correction. This does seem to work in some cases albeit briefly; after a while people slip back into old habits – old habits die hard.
People have different styles, they have different levels of understanding, different levels of self-awareness, etc., and these differences are not always appreciated and tolerated by others as much as they perhaps could be. Yes, it can be extremely frustrating dealing with some here – my tongue is often a bleeding mess and my jaws ache – but respect and patience for others seems thin on the ground and perhaps we could all adopt a little more of the motto “live and let live”?
What I see/hear much here on TS is this analogy: people don’t like the music because of the composer and/or the performer; they don’t like the performer because of the instrument or the music; they don’t like the instrument because of music; they dislike the instrument because of music, and a many more variations on a theme; you get the drift. There’s much criticism (or cheering on) but more often than not it ignores, avoids, or is simply blind to the larger picture and the fact that everything is connected.
Disclaimer of Hypocrisy: I am as ‘bad’ as anyone here of the negative habits & traits mentioned above – I don’t always (!) publically show it as much …
Thanks Incog. I wasn’t actually asking for feedback about moderation (rather the idea of a dedicated post for Russia/US, or Syria discussion like we did for the US election), but I’m fine with people talking about moderation like you just have. There’s no risk in that unless the person does something like attack an author, or wade into a shit fight and criticise moderation while it is active. I know this from before I was an author and I used to talk about moderation a lot, including when Lynn was moderating. My bottom line is respect that the person doing the moderation has the right even where I disagree with them. I can think of one time I overstepped the mark, and I’m guessing my generally respectful approach gave me some leeway from getting a smack down.
I like the anti-bodies analogy.
I don’t think the moderation is a mission impossible, because we don’t actually moderate the behaviour you are talking about. Sometimes people get banned because they fail to take notice of a moderation note or they argue back against it disrespectfully. Other times people get a ban because it’s just the best thing to do to both change the dynamic (e.g. a flame war) and limit the drain on moderator time (this is what happened yesterday). I expect that to happen more, because we have two regular authors now saying that what happens in the comments is putting them off writing. That is not good.
“Moderating is sometimes perceived, particularly by but not limited to the ones on the receiving end, as punitive, biased, unfair, etc.”
I really wish that people would understand that that is actually the point of moderation. I don’t call it punitive, but Lynn calls it educational. If people won’t self regulate their behaviour then the moderation process gives them a chance to change or they are out. As I said yesterday, fairness isn’t in the top three priorities for me.
I basically don’t care if people are fucked off with an author, and I don’t care if that anger is justified or not. If they can’t be respectful then I will choose protecting the author. If we don’t have authors there is not site. Commenters are expendable. Yes I am being very blunt here. I do try and protect commenters who I see being a net contribution to the site, e.g. by giving shorter bans, or by intervening before another authors comes along. But ultimately if they cross over a line, they’re just not worth the time and energy.
Fortunately the readership stats are still good for the site, so hopefully this is just a cyclical thing with the commentariat. I do feel like we could do with some new blood, but I think that is dependent upon us having good posts going up and thus we are back at what is good for the authors and the site.
“but respect and patience for others seems thin on the ground and perhaps we could all adopt a little more of the motto “live and let live”?”
I have no problem with people talking respectfully about the community including moderation 🙂 (what I’ve been objecting to is attacks on authors, criticising active moderations etc).
Bill
That article was like some kind of crude hasbara.
Orient.net is solely owned by an expat seriously rich Syrian businessman ,Ghassan Aboud, who has dabbled a lot in PR and export of vehicles…Toyota Hilux pickups amongst them!
Great in the desert.
Aboud’s choice of vehicle…Orient.net is purely focused on Syria and makes no bones about its bias
The reason I ask Jenny, if she’s serious, to submit an article dedicated to Syria, is so that only those truly interested could participate. It might also cut out the flippant one line artists with very little to contribute
I’m basically aware of what orient.net is and where it comes from.
Regardless, I thought I’d invest the few minutes to come up with some reasoned argument in response to Jenny.
One reason for that is that I hate “cut and paste wars” between people who seem incapable of forming their own opinions, and to who nuance is a filthy foreign concept.
Also late yesterday, I came across the shat all over mess that was passing for “Open Mike” and Weka’s valiant but belated mop and bucket efforts. Actual argument containing relevant points (whether agreed with or not) can help stop the likes of yesterday’s sad ad hom nonsense in its tracks.
Jenny submitting a post on Syria would be a welcome departure from her cut paste and dump trolling across every post on Syria from a year back that got her a year long ban.
I notice there’s only been one “below the belt” or potentially inflammatory comment/remark today. I guess some heads have been pulled in?
The reason I ask Jenny, if she’s serious, to submit an article dedicated to Syria, is so that only those truly interested could participate. It might also cut out the flippant one line artists with very little to contribute
francesca
Jenny submitting a post on Syria would be a welcome departure from her cut paste and dump trolling across every post on Syria from a year back that got her a year long ban.
Bill
I will try and put some time aside to do up a post on Syria for The Standard to post.
Cheers J.
P.S. Work full time during the week. And next weekend is fully booked with activities.
I should find some time in the evenings.
As the saying goes if you want something done, give it to a busy person.
If you want some one to do something for you and it needs to be done promptly and well, ask a busy woman to do it. Don’t ask a woman who has plenty of time. She will never get it done. You may be sure she is going to do it, but in the end for some excellent reason she disappoints you.
Whaleoil has gone really septic against National and is airing their dirty laundry. Some snippets provided if you can’t stand visiting the toxic wasteland…
Then there is the long-standing campaign by Bill English against my father, out of spite… simply because he dared to speak against Bill and Michelle Boag and the terrible farce their leadership of the party was.
…
I will never forget that insult to my family by John Key and Bill English.
Bill English always gets people to do his dirty work for him. The whispering campaigns in caucus against Maurice Williamson and Judith Collins are two of the nastiest underhanded things he instigated. Against Maurice Williamson for calling for the boil to be lanced after the 2002 debacle that English presided over and against Judith because she is way smarter than Bill. He is not the compassionate man he likes to portray himself as. He is as dirty, if not more dirty, than any other politician you care to mention.
The attacks on Todd Barclay show that. That was all orchestrated and run out of the leader’s office. Poor Todd Barclay didn’t know what hit him. He was actually a popular MP and doing a good job. But, the old guard wanted him rinsed and so they set about undermining him with false complaints to police, whispering campaigns and the enlistment of former staff of Bill English
John Key stood in parliament and exclaimed, when in opposition, that Working for Families was communism by stealth. He was right then. However, upon gaining power he set about not unravelling the communism by stealth but, rather, proudly extending it. The sycophants lapped it up. John Key could do no wrong, John Key could walk on water, John Key is the man. You’d think his shit didn’t stink either from the abject sycophancy and cult of personality that surrounded what was ultimately a very vain, conceited and self-centred man.
For years I have stayed silent about what went on behind the scenes after Dirty Politics. As I remain and those traitorous cowards in National resign I will start telling the truth when they can no longer hide behind parliamentary privilege. There are many stories to tell and many MPs who will shudder in shame at their behaviour.
Got my popcorn ready, will watch with interest.
Karma
“Bill English always gets people to do his dirty work for him.”
As always I can never tell is that is a stunning lack of self-awareness, or if he simply doesn’t care because hypocrisy is just another tool in the Dirty Politics tool box.
“For years I have stayed silent about what went on behind the scenes after Dirty Politics. As I remain and those traitorous cowards in National resign I will start telling the truth when they can no longer hide behind parliamentary privilege. There are many stories to tell and many MPs who will shudder in shame at their behaviour.”
I have no problem if they eat themselves. It could just be hot air though. Or the threat may be enough to garner him more power on the condition he shuts up.
Thats wonderful,comic!
Wonder if he’s still doing his PR work for Israel
There’s a great NZ sitcom in the making there
Dirty Politics it could be called
Someone should do it
He (that is Slater), and Bradbury for that matter, remind me of Kim DotCom.
Remember how he claimed to have all sorts of information about John Key?
What did he come up with? Nothing.
Here’s a man that knows that minority and minority indigenous cultures are suppressed by the neoliberals western systems he knows that indigenous culture are kind caring cultures he is doing his bit to fix the wrong that have happened in Canada past Ka pai Ka kite ano heres the link
Crowd funded blood money. What a world they’ve made for themselves.
Victims' fund that started as GoFundMe effort will pay $275,000 to the families of each of the 58 people killed in the mass shooting in Las Vegas. https://t.co/M2cf2xxaKC— The Associated Press (@AP) March 3, 2018
“Many would have assumed that seven years would be long enough to fix every quake-damaged house but that proved optimistic. There are still 2600 cases to go, nearly half of which are re-repairs, and there is a very good chance that further re-repairs will emerge.”
EQC Christchurch – a bad earthquake, what else could go wrong when we had our own fund to handle this type of disaster?
This from Pat’s link.
Former EQC Minister Gerry Brownlee declined to appear on the same programme to talk about how EQC performed under his watch. He did however comment to Stuff that EQC had delivered “exceptional results” and Wevers was “pivotal to the EQC’s remarkable response”.
I’ll scratch yours, if you scratch mine stuff eh.
But Dame Annette King has managed to get a very nice photo in a striking dress.
Good photos are a matter of luck I think.
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In 2003, the Court of Appeal delivered its decision in Ngati Apa v Attorney-General, ruling that Māori customary title over the foreshore and seabed had not been universally extinguished, and that the Māori Land Court could determine claims and confirm title if the facts supported it. This kicked off the ...
Earlier this week at Parliament, Labour leader Chris Hipkins was applauded for saying that the response to the final report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care had to be “bigger than politics.” True, but the fine words, apologies and “we hear you” messages will soon ring ...
TL;DR: In news breaking this morning:The Ministry of Education is cutting $2 billion from its school building programme so the National-ACT-NZ First Coalition Government has enough money to deliver tax cuts; The Government has quietly lowered its child poverty reduction targets to make them easier to achieve;Te Whatu Ora-Health NZ’s ...
Kia ora. These are some stories that caught our eye this week – as always, feel free to share yours in the comments. Our header image this week (via Eke Panuku) shows the planned upgrade for the Karanga Plaza Tidal Swimming Steps. The week in Greater Auckland On ...
1. What's not to love about the way the Harris campaign is turning things around?a. Nothingb. Love all of itc. God what a reliefd. Not that it will be by any means easye. All of the above 2. Documents released by the Ministry of Health show Associate Health Minister Casey ...
Trust in me in all you doHave the faith I have in youLove will see us through, if only you trust in meWhy don't you, you trust me?In a week that saw the release of the 3,000 page Abuse in Care report Christopher Luxon was being asked about Boot Camps. ...
TL;DR: The podcast above of the weekly ‘hoon’ webinar for paying subscribers last night features co-hosts and talking about the Royal Commission Inquiry into Abuse in Carereport released this week, and with:The Kākā’s climate correspondent on a UN push to not recognise carbon offset markets and ...
TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Friday, July 26, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:Transport: Simeon Brown announced$802.9 million in funding for 18 new trains on the Wairarapa and Manawatū rail lines, which ...
The northern expressway extension from Warkworth to Whangarei is likely to require radical changes to legislation if it is going to be built within the foreseeable future. The Government’s powers to purchase land, the planning process and current restrictions on road tolling are all going to need to be changed ...
Text within this block will maintain its original spacing when publishedFirst they came for the doctors But I was confused by the numbers and costs So I didn't speak up Then they came for our police and nurses And I didn't think we could afford those costs anyway So I ...
Photo by Joshua J. Cotten on UnsplashWe’re back again after our mid-winter break. We’re still with the ‘new’ day of the week (Thursday rather than Friday) when we have our ‘hoon’ webinar with paying subscribers to The Kākā for an hour at 5 pm.Jump on this link on YouTube Livestream ...
Notes: This is a free article. Abuse in Care themes are mentioned. Video is at the bottom.BackgroundYesterday’s report into Abuse in Care revealed that at least 1 in 3 of all who went through state and faith based care were abused - often horrifically. At least, because not all survivors ...
Luxon speaks in Parliament yesterday about the Abuse in Care report. Photo: Hagen Hopkins/Getty ImagesTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy today are:PM Christopher Luxon said yesterday in tabling the Abuse in Carereport in Parliament he wanted to ‘do the ...
About a decade ago I worked with a bloke called Steve. He was the grizzled veteran coder, a few years older than me, who knew where the bodies were buried - code wise. Despite his best efforts to be approachable and friendly he could be kind of gruff, through to ...
Some of the recent announcements from the government have reminded us of posts we’ve written in the past. Here’s one from early 2020. There were plenty of reactions to the government’s infrastructure announcement a few weeks ago which saw them fund a bunch of big roading projects. One of ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:00 am on Thursday, July 25 are:News: Why Electric Kiwi is closing to new customers - and why it matters RNZ’s Susan EdmundsScoop: Government drops ...
Hi,I felt a small wet tongue snaking through one of the holes in my Crocs. It explored my big toe, darting down one side, then the other. “He’s looking for some toe cheese,” said the woman next to me, words that still haunt me to this day.Growing up in New ...
Yesterday I happily quoted the Prime Minister without fact-checking him and sure enough, it turns out his numbers were all to hell. It’s not four kg of Royal Commission report, it’s fourteen.My friend and one-time colleague-in-comms Hazel Phillips gently alerted me to my error almost as soon as I’d hit ...
TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Thursday, July 25, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day were:The Abuse in Care Royal Commission of Inquirypublished its final report yesterday.PM Christopher Luxon and The Minister responsible for ...
The Official Information Act has always been a battle between requesters seeking information, and governments seeking to control it. Information is power, so Ministers and government agencies want to manage what is released and when, for their own convenience, and legality and democracy be damned. Their most recent tactic for ...
TL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy today are:Transport and Energy Minister Simeon Brown is accelerating plans to spend at least $10 billion through Public Private Partnerships (PPPs) to extend State Highway One as a four-lane ‘Expressway’ from Warkworth to Whangarei ...
I live my life (woo-ooh-ooh)With no control in my destinyYea-yeah, yea-yeah (woo-ooh-ooh)I can bleed when I want to bleedSo come on, come on (woo-ooh-ooh)You can bleed when you want to bleedYea-yeah, come on (woo-ooh-ooh)Everybody bleed when they want to bleedCome on and bleedGovernments face tough challenges. Selling unpopular decisions to ...
Please note:To skip directly to the- parliamentary footage in the video, scroll to 1:21 To skip to audio please click on the headphone iconon the left hand side of the screenThis video / audio section is under development. ...
Given the crackdown on wasteful government spending, it behooves me to point to a high profile example of spending by the Luxon government that looks like a big, fat waste of time and money. I’m talking about the deployment of NZDF personnel to support the US-led coalition in the Red ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:40 am on Wednesday, July 24 are:Deep Dive: Chipping away at the housing crisis, including my comments RNZ/Newsroom’s The DetailNews: Government softens on asset sales, ...
As I reported about the city centre, Auckland’s rail network is also going through a difficult and disruptive period which is rapidly approaching a culmination, this will result in a significant upgrade to the whole network. Hallelujah. Also like the city centre this is an upgrade predicated on the City ...
Today, a 4 kilogram report will be delivered to Parliament. We know this is what the report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in State and Faith-based Care weighs, because our Prime Minister told us so.Some reporter had blindsided him by asking a question about something done by ...
TL;DR: As of 7:00 am on Wednesday, July 24, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:Beehive:Transport Minister Simeon Brownannounced plans to use PPPs to fund, build and run a four-lane expressway between Auckland ...
NewstalkZB host Mike Hosking, who can usually be relied on to give Prime Minister Christopher Luxon an easy run, did not do so yesterday when he interviewed him about the HealthNZ deficit. Luxon is trying to use a deficit reported last year by HealthNZ as yet another example of the ...
Back in January a StatsNZ employee gave a speech at Rātana on behalf of tangata whenua in which he insulted and criticised the government. The speech clearly violated the principle of a neutral public service, and StatsNZ started an investigation. Part of that was getting an external consultant to examine ...
Renting for life: Shared ownership initiatives are unlikely to slow the slide in home ownership by much. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy today are:A Deloittereport for Westpac has projected Aotearoa’s home-ownership rate will ...
You're broken down and tiredOf living life on a merry go roundAnd you can't find the fighterBut I see it in you so we gonna walk it outAnd move mountainsWe gonna walk it outAnd move mountainsAnd I'll rise upI'll rise like the dayI'll rise upI'll rise unafraidI'll rise upAnd I'll ...
There’s been a change in Myers Park. Down the steps from St. Kevin’s Arcade, past the grassy slopes, the children’s playground, the benches and that goat statue, there has been a transformation. The underpass for Mayoral Drive has gone from a barren, grey, concrete tunnel, to a place that thrums ...
This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections Global society may have finally slammed on the brakes for climate-warming pollution released by human fossil fuel combustion. According to the Carbon Monitor Project, the total global climate pollution released between February and May 2024 declined slightly from the amount released during the same ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:00 am on Tuesday, July 23 are:Deep Dive: Penlink: where tolling rhetoric meets reality BusinessDesk-$$$’sOliver LewisScoop:Te Pūkenga plans for regional polytechs leak out ...
TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Tuesday, July 23, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:Health: Shane Reti announcedthe Board of Te Whatu Ora-Health New Zealand was being replaced with Commissioner Lester Levy ...
Health NZ warned the Government at the end of March that it was running over Budget. But the reasons it gave were very different to those offered by the Prime Minister yesterday. Prime Minister Christopher Luxon blamed the “botched merger” of the 20 District Health Boards (DHBs) to create Health ...
Long ReadKey Summary: Although National increased the health budget by $1.4 billion in May, they used an old funding model to project health system costs, and never bothered to update their pre-election numbers. They were told during the Health Select Committees earlier in the year their budget amount was deficient, ...
As a momentous, historic weekend in US politics unfolded, analysts and commentators grasped for precedents and comparisons to help explain the significance and power of the choice Joe Biden had made. The 46th president had swept the Democratic party’s primaries but just over 100 days from the election had chosen ...
TL;DR: I’m casting around for new ideas and ways of thinking about Aotearoa’s political economy to find a few solutions to our cascading and self-reinforcing housing, poverty and climate crises.Associate Professor runs an online masters degree in the economics of sustainability at Torrens University in Australia and is organising ...
The Finance and Expenditure Committee has reported back on National's Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill. The bill sets up water for privatisation, and was introduced under urgency, then rammed through select committee with no time even for local councils to make a proper submission. Naturally, national's select committee ...
Some years ago, I bought a book at Dunedin’s Regent Booksale for $1.50. As one does. Vandrad the Viking (1898), by J. Storer Clouston, is an obscure book these days – I cannot find a proper online review – but soon it was sitting on my shelf, gathering dust alongside ...
History is not on the side of the centre-left, when Democratic presidents fall behind in the polls and choose not to run for re-election. On both previous occasions in the past 75 years (Harry Truman in 1952, Lyndon Johnson in 1968) the Democrats proceeded to then lose the White House ...
This is a free articleCoverageThis morning, US President Joe Biden announced his withdrawal from the Presidential race. And that is genuinely newsworthy. Thanks for your service, President Biden, and all the best to you and yours.However, the media in New Zealand, particularly the 1News nightly bulletin, has been breathlessly covering ...
A homeless person’s camp beside a blocked-off slipped damage walkway in Freeman’s Bay: we are chasing our tail on our worsening and inter-related housing, poverty and climate crises. Photo: Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy ...
What has happened to it all?Crazy, some'd sayWhere is the life that I recognise?(Gone away)But I won't cry for yesterdayThere's an ordinary worldSomehow I have to findAnd as I try to make my wayTo the ordinary worldYesterday morning began as many others - what to write about today? I began ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:00 am on Monday, July 22 are:Today’s Must Read: Father and son live in a tent, and have done for four years, in a million ...
TL;DR: As of 7:00 am on Monday, July 22, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:US President Joe Biden announced via X this morning he would not stand for a second term.Multinational professional services firm ...
A listing of 32 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, July 14, 2024 thru Sat, July 20, 2024. Story of the week As reflected by preponderance of coverage, our Story of the Week is Project 2025. Until now traveling ...
This weekend, a friend pointed out someone who said they’d like to read my posts, but didn’t want to pay. And my first reaction was sympathy.I’ve already told folks that if they can’t comfortably subscribe, and would like to read, I’d be happy to offer free subscriptions. I don’t want ...
National: The Party of ‘Law and Order’ IntroductionThis weekend, the Government formally kicked off one of their flagship policy programs: a military style boot camp that New Zealand has experimented with over the past 50 years. Cartoon credit: Guy BodyIt’s very popular with the National Party’s Law and Orderimage, ...
Day one of the solo leg of my long journey home begins with my favourite sound: footfalls in an empty street. 5.00 am and it’s already light and already too warm, almost.If I can make the train that leaves Budapest later this hour I could be in Belgrade by nightfall; ...
Do you remember Y2K, the threat that hung over humanity in the closing days of the twentieth century? Horror scenarios of planes falling from the sky, electronic payments failing and ATMs refusing to dispense cash. As for your VCR following instructions and recording your favourite show - forget about it.All ...
Climate Change Minister Simon Watts being questioned by The Kākā’s Bernard Hickey.TL;DR: My top six things to note around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the week to July 20 were:1. A strategy that fails Zero Carbon Act & Paris targetsThe National-ACT-NZ First Coalition Government finally unveiled ...
Summary:As New Zealand loses at least 12 leaders in the public service space of health, climate, and pharmaceuticals, this month alone, directly in response to the Government’s policies and budget choices, what lies ahead may be darker than it appears. Tui examines some of those departures and draws a long ...
The Minister of Housing’s ambition is to reduce markedly the ratio of house prices to household incomes. If his strategy works it would transform the housing market, dramatically changing the prospects of housing as an investment.Leaving aside the Minister’s metaphor of ‘flooding the market’ I do not see how the ...
As previously noted, my historical fantasy piece, set in the fifth-century Mediterranean, was accepted for a Pirate Horror anthology, only for the anthology to later fall through. But in a good bit of news, it turned out that the story could indeed be re-marketed as sword and sorcery. As of ...
An employee of tobacco company Philip Morris International demonstrates a heated tobacco device. Photo: Getty ImagesTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy on Friday, July 19 are:At a time when the Coalition Government is cutting spending on health, infrastructure, education, housing ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 8:30 am on Friday, July 19 are:Scoop: NZ First Minister Casey Costello orders 50% cut to excise tax on heated tobacco products. The minister has ...
Kia ora, it’s time for another Friday roundup, in which we pull together some of the links and stories that caught our eye this week. Feel free to add more in the comments! Our header image this week shows a foggy day in Auckland town, captured by Patrick Reynolds. ...
TL;DR : Here’s the top six items climate news for Aotearoa this week, as selected by Bernard Hickey and The Kākā’s climate correspondent Cathrine Dyer. A discussion recorded yesterday is in the video above and the audio of that sent onto the podcast feed.The Government released its draft Emissions Reduction ...
Save some money, get rich and old, bring it back to Tobacco Road.Bring that dynamite and a crane, blow it up, start all over again.Roll up. Roll up. Or tailor made, if you prefer...Whether you’re selling ciggies, digging for gold, catching dolphins in your nets, or encouraging folks to flutter ...
Waiting In The Wings:For truly, if Trump is America’s un-assassinated Caesar, then J.D. Vance is America’s Octavian, the Republic’s youthful undertaker – and its first Emperor.DONALD TRUMP’S SELECTION of James D. Vance as his running-mate bodes ill for the American republic. A fervent supporter of Viktor Orban, the “illiberal” prime ...
TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Friday, July 19, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:The PSAannounced the Employment Relations Authority (ERA) had ruled in the PSA’s favour in its case against the Ministry ...
TL;DR: The podcast above of the weekly ‘hoon’ webinar for paying subscribers last night features co-hosts and talking with:The Kākā’s climate correspondent talking about the National-ACT-NZ First Government’s release of its first Emissions Reduction Plan;University of Otago Foreign Relations Professor and special guest Dr Karin von ...
Open access notablesImproving global temperature datasets to better account for non-uniform warming, Calvert, Quarterly Journal of the Royal Meteorological Society:To better account for spatial non-uniform trends in warming, a new GITD [global instrumental temperature dataset] was created that used maximum likelihood estimation (MLE) to combine the land surface ...
A late change to charter school legislation will cheat educators out of fair pay and negotiating power proving charter schools are just a vehicle to make profit out of our education system. ...
In 2004 te iwi Māori rallied against the Crown’s attempt to confiscate our coastlines and moana with the Foreshore and Seabed Act. This led to the largest hīkoi of a generation and the birth of Te Pāti Māori. 20 years later, history is repeating itself. Today the government has announced ...
It has been five and a half years since the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care was established to investigate the abuse of children, young people, and vulnerable adults within state and faith-based institutions. Yesterday, the final report - Whanaketia through pain and trauma, from darkness to light ...
The Green Party is calling on the Government to take action off the back of the International Court of Justice ruling on Israel’s illegal occupation of Palestine. ...
On Friday the International Court of Justice reaffirmed what Palestinian’s have been telling us for decades: that the occupation and colonisation of Palestinian lands by Israel is illegal and must end immediately. They also called for reparations for Palestinian’s who have lived under Israeli occupation since it began in 1967. ...
Labour calls on the Government to act after the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruled that Israel’s occupation of Palestinian Territories is illegal. ...
The 53.7 percent rise in benefit sanctions over the last year is more proof of this Government’s disdain for our communities most in need of support. ...
Aotearoa could be a country where every child grows up feeling safe, loved and with a sense of belonging in their whānau and community. But for some of our children, this is far from reality. Instead, they are trapped in a maze of intergenerational harm that they can’t escape on ...
Te Pāti Māori are calling for David Seymour to resign as Associate Health Minister in response to his call for Pharmac to ignore the Treaty of Waitangi. “This announcement is just another example of the government’s anti-Tiriti, anti-Māori agenda.” Said Co-leader and spokesperson for health, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer. “Seymour thinks it ...
The soaring price of renting is driving the rise of inflation in this country - with latest figures from Stats NZ showing rents are up 4.8 per cent on average while annual inflation is at 3.3 per cent. ...
National’s Emissions Reduction Plan will take New Zealand further from the economy we need to ensure the next generation has a stable climate and secure livelihoods. ...
Following consultation with named parties and thorough consideration of privacy interests, the Green Party is in a position to release the Executive Summary of the final report from the independent investigation into Darleen Tana. ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon should be asking serious questions of his Minister for Resources Shane Jones now it’s been revealed he misled the public about a dinner with mining companies that he didn’t declare and said wasn’t pre-arranged. ...
Te Pāti Māori have submitted to the Justice Select Committee against the Sentencing (Reinstating Three Strikes) Amendment Bill. The bill will further entrench racism in our justice system and fails to focus on rehabilitation. “Reinstating Three Strikes will empower a systematically racist system and exacerbate the overrepresentation of Māori in ...
The Transport and Infrastructure Committee is set to make a determination on the Residential Tenancies Amendment (RTA) Bill in the coming weeks. “This legislation will give landlords the power to kick our whānau out onto the street for no reason” said Housing spokesperson, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi. “Their solution to the housing ...
“National’s campaign was about tackling crime and the best they can do is a two-year long Ministerial Advisory Group,” Labour justice spokesperson Duncan Webb said. ...
“There are more examples of charter schools failing their students than there are success stories. The coalition Government is driving to dismantle our public school system and instead promote a privatised, competitive structure that puts profits before kids,” Jan Tinetti said. ...
“This government is choosing to deliberately mislead and withhold information, keeping our people in the dark about this government’s agenda and the future of our mokopuna,” said co-leader and spokesperson for Health, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer. The call comes after the demand from the Chief Ombudsman that Associate Minister of Health, Casey ...
“Today’s climate announcement by Simon Watts makes clear the National Government is simply paying lip service to meeting its climate change targets,” Megan Woods said. ...
National is choosing to make life harder for workers by taking away the rights our communities have fought hard for. Here's how they’re taking workers backwards. ...
Australia, Canada and New Zealand today issued the following statement on the need for an urgent ceasefire in Gaza and the risk of expanded conflict between Hizballah and Israel. The situation in Gaza is catastrophic. The human suffering is unacceptable. It cannot continue. We remain unequivocal in our condemnation of ...
Attorney-General Judith Collins today reminded all State and faith-based institutions of their legal obligation to preserve records relevant to the safety and wellbeing of those in its care. “The Abuse in Care Inquiry’s report has found cases where records of the most vulnerable people in State and faith‑based institutions were ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says the Government’s online safety website for children and young people has reached one million page views. “It is great to see so many young people and their families accessing the site Keep It Real Online to learn how to stay safe online, and manage ...
Tēnā tātou katoa, Ngā mihi te rangi, ngā mihi te whenua, ngā mihi ki a koutou, kia ora mai koutou. Thank you for the opportunity to be here and the invitation to speak at this 50th anniversary conference. I acknowledge all those who have gone before us and paved the ...
New Zealand’s payroll providers have successfully prepared to ensure 3.5 million individuals will, from Wednesday next week, be able to keep more of what they earn each pay, says Finance Minister Nicola Willis and Revenue Minister Simon Watts. “The Government's tax policy changes are legally effective from Wednesday. Delivering this tax ...
An experimental vineyard which will help futureproof the wine sector has been opened in Blenheim by Associate Regional Development Minister Mark Patterson. The covered vineyard, based at the New Zealand Wine Centre – Te Pokapū Wāina o Aotearoa, enables controlled environmental conditions. “The research that will be produced at the Experimental ...
The Coalition Government has confirmed the indicative regional breakdown of North Island Weather Event (NIWE) funding for state highway recovery projects funded through Budget 2024, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Regions in the North Island suffered extensive and devastating damage from Cyclone Gabrielle and the 2023 Auckland Anniversary Floods, and ...
Indonesia’s Foreign Minister, Retno Marsudi, will visit New Zealand next week, Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced. “Indonesia is important to New Zealand’s security and economic interests and is our closest South East Asian neighbour,” says Mr Peters, who is currently in Laos to engage with South East Asian partners. ...
He aha te kai a te rangatira? He kōrero, he kōrero, he kōrero. The government has reaffirmed its commitment to supporting the aspirations of Ngāti Maniapoto, Minister for Māori Development Tama Potaka says. “My thanks to Te Nehenehenui Trust – Ngāti Maniapoto for bringing their important kōrero to a ministerial ...
Transport Minister Simeon Brown has thanked outgoing Chair of the Civil Aviation Authority, Janice Fredric, for her service to the board.“I have received Ms Fredric’s resignation from the role of Chair of the Civil Aviation Authority,” Mr Brown says.“On behalf of the Government, I want to thank Ms Fredric for ...
The Government is proposing legislation to overturn a Court of Appeal decision and amend the Marine and Coastal Area Act in order to restore Parliament’s test for Customary Marine Title, Treaty Negotiations Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “Section 58 required an applicant group to prove they have exclusively used and occupied ...
Regulation Minister David Seymour says that opposition parties have united in bad faith, opposing what they claim are ‘dangerous changes’ to the Early Childhood Education sector, despite no changes even being proposed yet. “Issues with affordability and availability of early childhood education, and the complexity of its regulation, has led ...
After receiving more than 740 submissions in the first 20 days, Regulation Minister David Seymour is asking the Ministry for Regulation to extend engagement on the early childhood education regulation review by an extra two weeks. “The level of interest has been very high, and from the conversations I’ve been ...
The Coalition Government is investing $802.9 million into the Wairarapa and Manawatū rail lines as part of a funding agreement with the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA), KiwiRail, and the Greater Wellington and Horizons Regional Councils to deliver more reliable services for commuters in the lower North Island, Transport Minister Simeon ...
Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has announced his intention to appoint a Crown Manager to both Hawke’s Bay Regional and Wairoa District Councils to speed up the delivery of flood protection work in Wairoa."Recent severe weather events in Wairoa this year, combined with damage from Cyclone Gabrielle in 2023 have ...
Mr Speaker, this is a day that many New Zealanders who were abused in State care never thought would come. It’s the day that this Parliament accepts, with deep sorrow and regret, the Report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care. At the heart of this report are the ...
For the first time, the Government is formally acknowledging some children and young people at Lake Alice Psychiatric Hospital experienced torture. The final report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in State and Faith-based Care “Whanaketia – through pain and trauma, from darkness to light,” was tabled in Parliament ...
The Government has acknowledged the nearly 2,400 courageous survivors who shared their experiences during the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Historical Abuse in State and Faith-Based Care. The final report from the largest and most complex public inquiry ever held in New Zealand, the Royal Commission Inquiry “Whanaketia – through ...
With a week to go before hard-working New Zealanders see personal income tax relief for the first time in fourteen years, 513,000 people have used the Budget tax calculator to see how much they will benefit, says Finance Minister Nicola Willis. “Tax relief is long overdue. From next Wednesday, personal income ...
Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Brooke van Velden says a bill that has passed its first reading will improve parental leave settings and give non-biological parents more flexibility as primary carer for their child. The Regulatory Systems Amendment Bill (No3), passed its first reading this morning. “It includes a change ...
Two Bills designed to improve regulation and make it easier to do business have passed their first reading in Parliament, says Economic Development Minister Melissa Lee. The Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill and Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill make key changes to legislation administered by the Ministry ...
New legislation paves the way for greater competition in sectors such as banking and electricity, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly says. “Competitive markets boost productivity, create employment opportunities and lift living standards. To support competition, we need good quality regulation but, unfortunately, a recent OECD report ranked New ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says lotteries for charitable purposes, such as those run by the Heart Foundation, Coastguard NZ, and local hospices, will soon be allowed to operate online permanently. “Under current laws, these fundraising lotteries are only allowed to operate online until October 2024, after which ...
The Coalition Government is accelerating work on the new four-lane expressway between Auckland and Whangārei as part of its Roads of National Significance programme, with an accelerated delivery model to deliver this project faster and more efficiently, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “For too long, the lack of resilient transport connections ...
Sir Don McKinnon will travel to Viet Nam this week as a Special Envoy of the Government, Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced. “It is important that the Government give due recognition to the significant contributions that General Secretary Nguyen Phu Trong made to New Zealand-Viet Nam relations,” Mr ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says newly appointed Commissioner, Grant Illingworth KC, will help deliver the report for the first phase of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into COVID-19 Lessons, due on 28 November 2024. “I am pleased to announce that Mr Illingworth will commence his appointment as ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters travels to Laos this week to participate in a series of Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN)-led Ministerial meetings in Vientiane. “ASEAN plays an important role in supporting a peaceful, stable and prosperous Indo-Pacific,” Mr Peters says. “This will be our third visit to ...
Construction of a new mental health facility at Te Nikau Grey Hospital in Greymouth is today one step closer, Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey says. “This $27 million facility shows this Government is delivering on its promise to boost mental health care and improve front line services,” Mr Doocey says. ...
New Zealand is committing nearly $50 million to a package supporting sustainable Pacific fisheries development over the next four years, Foreign Minister Winston Peters and Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones announced today. “This support consisting of a range of initiatives demonstrates New Zealand’s commitment to assisting our Pacific partners ...
Associate Education Minister David Seymour says proposed changes to the Education and Training Amendment Bill will ensure charter schools have more flexibility to negotiate employment agreements and are equipped with the right teaching resources. “Cabinet has agreed to progress an amendment which means unions will not be able to initiate ...
In response to serious concerns around oversight, overspend and a significant deterioration in financial outlook, the Board of Health New Zealand will be replaced with a Commissioner, Health Minister Dr Shane Reti announced today. “The previous government’s botched health reforms have created significant financial challenges at Health NZ that, without ...
Minister for Space and Science, Innovation and Technology Judith Collins will travel to Adelaide tomorrow for space and science engagements, including speaking at the Australian Space Forum. While there she will also have meetings and visits with a focus on space, biotechnology and innovation. “New Zealand has a thriving space ...
Climate Change Minister Simon Watts will travel to China on Saturday to attend the Ministerial on Climate Action meeting held in Wuhan. “Attending the Ministerial on Climate Action is an opportunity to advocate for New Zealand climate priorities and engage with our key partners on climate action,” Mr Watts says. ...
Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones is travelling to the Solomon Islands tomorrow for meetings with his counterparts from around the Pacific supporting collective management of the region’s fisheries. The 23rd Pacific Islands Forum Fisheries Committee and the 5th Regional Fisheries Ministers’ Meeting in Honiara from 23 to 26 July ...
The Government today launched the Military Style Academy Pilot at Te Au rere a te Tonga Youth Justice residence in Palmerston North, an important part of the Government’s plan to crackdown on youth crime and getting youth offenders back on track, Minister for Children, Karen Chhour said today. “On the ...
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Green Party goes for more transparency for themselves – bans kickbacks to MPs, and staff (basically bans being treated by corporates.
They’re hoping to lead by example to take the money out of politics and lobbying. Very good move, I think.
Wtf! Sort yourselves out Stuff!
Written by the guy who interviewed Davidson this week!
And he DOES seem to favour Genter.
Not really wanting to put my oar in on this one – but the white middle class seem to find the activist māori rather threatening.
We need diversity. Being seen as a party of white middle class makes it too easy for the pundits to think of the Greens as being only a one issue party.
We need diversity
…and not just for appearance’s sake, although that’s important too. Diverse groups make better, more inclusive, more robust decisions.
Thats an oft repeated assumption. There are actually more important things than “diverse” ie non partison , informed, and sound process. Far better to look for the person who can and will do the job properly for the benifit of all. searching for diverisity is mostly ephermeral based on obvious and largely irrelivant things like skin colour , gender, whilst ignoring more important indicators such as class, social group, and outlook.
Those are also forms of diversity.
exactly
That argument is predicated on the idea that one of those women cant do the job properly, presumably the brown one.
thats just bullshit, try again
You’re simply ignorant.
ok.
Macro said the Greens shouldn’t be seen to be a white middle class party.
OAB said,
“We need diversity”
…and not just for appearance’s sake, although that’s important too. Diverse groups make better, more inclusive, more robust decisions.
In other words, how the Greens are perceived is important, but diversity is a good goal/value in its own right.
Your reply implied that that was an assumption which isn’t true, but you didn’t put up any evidence of that. Instead you stated *your preferences* i.e. it’s ‘more important’ to have a non-partisan, informed and sound process.
This implies that the Greens doing diversity means they are partisan (not sure what that means in this context tbh), uninformed, and have shitty process.
You then said that rather than diversity being one of the criteria it’s ‘far better’ to look for the person who will do the job properly. Again, the implication is that valuing diversity somehow means *not choosing the person who will do the job properly.
In this case, I can’t see either of those women not doing the job properly, so I’m wondering what the point is. You either believe one of the women is not suitable, or you agree that both are in which case why would diversity be a problem?
My response was to point out that if it’s the former, then it’s likely to be Davidson that is not the suitable person, because so much of her work is around diversity. In her case, that’s not separable from her being Māori e.g. Genter could have all the dedication in the world to diversity but she’s not going to have the background, understanding of issues or connections that MD has simply because of who MD is. Being Māori is an asset in this situation.
Given that the Greens have a serious commitment to Te Tiriti, this isn’t a Pākehā trying to be inclusive thing, it’s actually core to the whole kaupapa of the party.
If instead of MD, there was say a GP member up against JAG who didn’t have the experience/background/connections or skill that MD has and didn’t have the skill to do the job properly, but was Māori, then I would expect the party to choose JAG as the leader.
On the other hand, if you are saying that both women *can do the job properly, then you are actively arguing against Māori women having representation in parliament and the party and that instead we should favour class issues. The irony there is that MD also is representative of working and underclass people, and is a big part of the reason for why the Greens are able to be credible continuing to do that work after Turei. But maybe those aren’t the right kind of class issues because they are very visibly taking into account the class issues of Māori and Pasifica.
searching for diverisity is mostly ephermeral based on obvious and largely irrelivant things like skin colour , gender, whilst ignoring more important indicators such as class, social group, and outlook.
Well let’s take that to its logical conclusion. We’d then have men standing for the (female) co-leader position. And everyone would be ignoring gender and ethnicity but focussing on class, interest groups, and world view. But those class, interests and world views would have to be colour and sex blind. Then we’d have something akin to the National Party Caucus.
No commitment to women’s issues or Te Tiriti, which would then mean that the GP was no longer the GP.
Which is of course exactly what you want. You can run your anti-identity politics arguments, but in the end you are basically advocating for white men to be running the show, because when you take out sex and ethnicity that is what our society defaults to. Even if you don’t care about that, the big flaw in your argument is that the default is also wealthy men, so you can forget about class being taken into account in any meaningful way.
On the issue of process, the problem here isn’t that the GP use unsound process. Their process is very sound and robust, esp by NZ political standards.
I think what you are saying is that their process shouldn’t try and help women and Māori (and presumably other ethnicities, disabled people, the queer community etc), but instead is only sound if it actively ignores those people and issues and instead focussed on class. I’d love to see a modern sound process designed that does that btw (I think it’s an oxymoron myself, but see if you can provide some examples). Some of us are old enough to understand that left wing politics used to be exactly that. Politics that suited white men focussed on class and white women were on their backs or making cups of tea. Where were Māori women?
This was an important part of the genesis of second wave feminism as white women in particular in those communities left to organise their own politics because the men were incapable of attending to women’s issues. That’s right, women left traditional left wing groups *precisely because of them organising around the values you are promoting here. So unless you are suggesting that women give up their own politics and do what men want, it’s very hard to see how that would work. Either way, sound process doesn’t come into it.
btw, if you don’t mean any or all of those things, it’s on you to clarify. Because otherwise you just look like you are running the same tired old lines telling women to step aside.
Got a couple of new brown ones over at the National Party and I don’t think they will be able to do the job either ?
Wrong
you are conflating diversity and inclusiveness. and the results seem to show most gains from inclusive decision making as expected. so that would suggest that the ability to engage “inclusively” is a higher priority than “diverse”
I am not suggesting that there is not positives for diversity just that there are rather more important considerations
As well I am questioning what seems to be an unquestioned assumption that Marama represents more “diversity” , she may well do so! but it requires a lot more consideration than “cause she is brown”! I actually do not have a preference at this time as i do not have sufficient info (yet!) . All I am saying is i do not accept Marama = diversity = good thing without a lot more analysis
No I’m not. The article was quite clear:
You seem to be reaching to prove that you were right when you were obviously wrong.
non partison [sic] , informed, and sound process
None of which are threatened by greater diversity.
look for the person who can and will do the job properly for the benifit [sic] of all
The meritocracy paradox demonstrates how ineffective this approach is.
Oh, and it isn’t an assumption. Check out a few meta-analyses and you’ll find a small positive correction between performance outcomes and group diversity.
…the white middle class seem to find the activist māori rather threatening.
I think it’s not so much that we find Davidson threatening as that Genter is one of us, so of course we prefer her. The question is how many will be able to see past their personal preferences to think about what would be best for the party – it will be interesting to watch.
Both dynamics will no doubt be happening. I’d be very disappointed if that was happening to the same extent within the active GP members (or at least people need to get past what makes them comfortable).
Macro, look how much diversity we have with Simon and Paula!
Ethnicy and gender politics are meaningless to most people.
Only excites media and box tickers which increasingly both alienate normal people who see too much of it, in their day to day lives.
Fuckwits come in all genders, ages and ethnicities. Ordinary people are aware of this fact, but it seems to be surprise to those in media circles.
What diversity is there from Simon and Paula?
alienate normal people
What the fuck is a “normal person” anyway? Are people who care about issues of gender and ethnicity abnormal? Should I feel insulted?
Well I’ve got the impression normal person means white people and ethnicity, gender and orientation are blithely reduced to an irrelevant abstraction, so fuck yeah, it’s insulting.
There you go Weka. As I said Henry Cooke is NO friend of the Left.
He thinks of Marama Davidson as an “activist” (Fox) and Julie Anne Genter as “like him” so acceptable. If you Greens have to have another leader, this is his choice.
He is a lazy self serving pratt, who behaved in a similar manner towards Jacinder Ardern during her campaign. He would say things like “Another school am”
“Made a speech to the faithful in the town hall pm” He made it plain it was all under sufferance and faintly beneath him. While the reporter following Bill English raved about every thing Bill did. So I marked his card as they say.
Stuff’s going to be swallowed by Granny Herald so we need to watch this space.
I watched the interviews the other night, and he didn’t behave as you suggest at all.
He thinks of Marama Davidson as an “activist” (Fox) and Julie Anne Genter as “like him” so acceptable. If you Greens have to have another leader, this is his choice.
whereas I see the surname mistake as just that (he’s not the only one who has made that mistake). And there’s nothing in that piece to suggest that he prefers Genter, or that in doing so it’s an ethnicity issue (I think you utterly made that up).
He’s under no obligation to be a friend of the left, he’s a journalist.
I get that you don’t like him, but short of linking to some things he did last year and describing what is wrong, I can’t made much sense of what you are referring to.
e.g.He would say things like “Another school am”
“Made a speech to the faithful in the town hall pm”
I can’t see what is wrong with sentences like that, not least because I have no context.
“While the reporter following Bill English raved about every thing Bill did.”
How does that have anything to do with Cooke?
The Stuff article from today is pretty much all reporting of what the GP are doing, with a small amount of commentary at the end. I’m highly critical of the MSM too, but I think we have to give them credit when they get things right, and the kind of neutral reporting in that piece is exactly what I want to see more of.
Maybe I’m missing something, feel free to point it out.
Perhaps I am over reacting to him, and I’m biased and cross. Sorry. I’ll try harder to be dispassionate in future.
Patricia please dont apologize for calling it as you see it.
Oh come on Patricia. Give the guy a break and don’t condemn him for life as if he is an old hand/hack such as Barry Soper.
Henry Cooke is all of 24/25 years old – just a couple of years out of his tertiary studies and employed as a political reporter at Stuff for only a year or two (probably on a very low salary). Pretty good going actually, to be a Parliamentary political reporter at the age and level of work experience.
We all make mistakes, particularly when we are young and learning – and old like me.
AND he did have the courtesy of replying last night to your comments on the Gender and Davidson post (which I see you have now responded to after posting this comment).
For others, his reply on that post is here https://thestandard.org.nz/genter-and-davidson/#comment-1456154
On a personal note, I know people who know Henry well and consider him to be an exceptionally nice young person with a real concern for people with disabilities, mental health issues and those in need etc. (Some of those people are in those circumstances themselves.) Very far from a right wing whatever. And a big dog lover.
A big dog lover, ok that’s fine then, if he has memory issues and can’t even get right what names goes with what party they represent as a political reporter. No problems!!!
I knew that would be the draw card for someone. You take the booby prize. Well done.
Thank you for that balance veutoviper. See my reply to Weka. I accept perhaps I read more into both things than I should have done. If you read this Henry, Sorry.
Not a problem Patricia. I thought it was probably a misunderstanding or a case of mistaken identity. I am sure Henry will fully accept that.
I often have a quick look at his Twitter account and those of other political media types as it is a really good way of finding out news before it even hits the media websites! I have a massive and complex collection of bookmarks – and then wonder why my old PC is slow.
Anyway no mention on there etc, and he is excited as tomorrow he is off to the Pacific for 5-6 days with the PM, Deputy PM and other Ministers/MPs including James Shaw on the annual Ministerial visit to the Pacific nations with which we have strong ties – this year, Samoa, Tonga, Niue and the Cook islands.
Veutoviper – is Henry Cooke related to you ??
LOL – no! I have not even met him to speak to but have seen him in person a number of times and as I said we have mutual friends/acquaintances. Saw his excitement etc on his Twitter feed.
I’m in Wellington and Wellington City itself is a small world – a town not a city. Ditto the Government work environment in which I grew up and then worked for many years of Parliament, Govt Head Offices, and all related organisations etc – unions, media etc. – is an even smaller world/community. You blot your copybook in that small world and don’t expect to work there again. While I am now retired I am still in touch with many people still in that world. And I also sometimes bump into people like Andrew Little and have a chat in the local shops etc.
Hey NZ politicians, it would be good if we could give some regular allocation of foreign aid to those Pacific Islands and be the major shareholder and operator in a ferry/freight boat for each major island. That would be real practical help in fair weather or foul.
Talking of aid. To hear the Aussie PM say to Jacinda and the press that they gave a million in aid each year during the stand up with media ( and NZ sent $750 000 to Tonga after Gita. ) Their aid should be 5 X greater by population.
NZ has always had regular formal allocations of aid to the Pacific Islands, greywarshark, This is through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade which has a separate section dedicated purely to this work.
I don’t have time right now but will do a fuller comment on this in the next day or so.
Winston Peters gave a keynote speech on Thursday on increases in aid and other assistance to the Pacific Islands with which we have strong relationships; and there will be more to come in the next five days during the Ministerial mission to Samoa, Tonga, Niue and the Cook Islands this week by the PM etc which I mentioned in my 1.1.2.2.2.1 above.
I’m appreciating these updates vv.
Thanks vv
I have heard about shonky ferries and irregular shipping for some time to the PI. But if left to whoever there they can be overloaded and undermanned. So that would be a good bit of expenditure for us and really helpful.
Here are a few links for you on NZ aid etc to the Pacific Islands from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade’s website. NZ has always had and still has considerable responsibilities in respect of many Pacific Islands as some were directly administered by NZ before becoming independent, others are Commonwealth members like NZ, and one or two are still under NZ’s direct administration ie Tokelau.
As a result of these responsibilities, NZ has been providing financial aid, and other forms of aid and assistance (health, education, safety, energy infrastructure, transport (eg ferries etc) for many decades.
https://www.mfat.govt.nz/en/countries-and-regions/pacific/
https://www.mfat.govt.nz/en/aid-and-development/
These links have many links in them on specific topics, types of aid provided etc
Under the Nat govt, aid (including $$$) to the Pacific was cut back considerably. The new Govt is going to reverse this and it will again be a priority as outlined by Winston Peters last Thursday night in a speech to the Lowry institute in Sydney.
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/speech/shifting-dial
There will be much more on this in the next five days as the PM’s Ministerial Mission goes around the Pacific.
You do know that the PM’s parents have been living for about the last 10 years in the Pacific (Niue, then Samoa and then back to Niue) where her father has worked for the NZ Govt first in the area of police liaison until his retirement from NZ Police and then for the last four years as NZ High Commissioner to Niue. They are due to move back to NZ in the next month or so and will be here to help with their soon to be grandchild. But father is also now becoming the NZ Administrator of Tukelau – so will still be working in the area of aid and assistance to the Pacific.
Veutoviper, My current Codeine meds make me a crab!! So I have to watch that.. I’m glad it is working out for him. I did not realise how young he is. They don’t earn much and getting to all the campaign whistle stops can also be an issue, so being included in the group going with the PM and all would be really exciting for him. I’ll read his posts with interest, and far less bile!! Cheers.
Understand – I am somewhat high this week on pain killers myself having been rushed into hospital for a few hours on Monday with an acute attack of (diverticulitis or kidney stones – yet to be determined, have both) and an aftershock (like earthquakes!) a few days later.
Kia kaha
Cheers.
Hope your ailments get dealt to. You people who can still find time to discuss the wider matters while personal stuff is going on are great.
Having read his articles on stuff, I think Patricia is pretty much spot on.
+1 Patricia, good description, that’s how he often came across in his articles on Stuff, a real National party sycophant.
Perhaps Louis, but when I looked back at my diary, I thought perhaps I had over reacted. So I’ll follow his travels with interest Cheers.
They’re hoping to lead by example to take the money out of politics and lobbying.
Good idea. Companies spend money on this because it works. I’ve experienced plenty of it myself and it’s a hell of a job to take a dispassionate approach to the people you just had a great time partying with, even if you don’t feel anything much for their employer. You tell yourself you’re not and won’t be influenced by it, but would they be fronting up all that cash if you weren’t? In my case it’s not a big deal if one company manages to get a slight edge over another, but as Shaw says, in the case of politicians it is a big deal:
“Generally speaking it isn’t community-based organisations or environmental groups that have the resources to do this kind of bidding. They’re not usually organisations who advocate for the homeless or for single mums, or groups that are fighting to protect our water, or native bush.”
“They are usually deep-pocketed corporates, or lobbyists acting on their behalf, who have a financial interest in preserving the status quo.”
I’d like to fund political parties three ways:
Membership fees – capped per annum. Imagine if the most you could charge to be a member was, say, $500 per year.
Vouchers issued to voters as they vote. A voter on election would be issued with a voucher for (say) $10. They deposit the voucher in a box for a political party they wish to get the money. If they refuse to fund anyone, the money will be split after the election along the lines of the percentage of votes achieved.
A payment for each vote achieved, scaled. So (for example) your first 100,000 votes get you $5 each, the next 200,000 $4 each, the next 400,000 $3 each and all subsequent votes $2 each. Thus, a million votes = $3,100,000.
That is it. No other source of funding allowed.
Reading Sanctuary on funding politics I thought what a good idea. And then I just kept going sop hope someone can bother to read this and give a thought as to whether this change would have good effects on numbers voting.
I thought that Sanctuary’s proposal would make voting both seem more important and allow definite direct choice – of money to the Party supported. The whole apparently simple ritual is being overshadowed by all the hype from Parties, from individuals, from the media and very influenced by the money flowing around.
Time to put a stopper on that, reduce it to a steady trickle and leave room to listen to the pollies, have meetings where people put huge wish lists on whiteboards and then debate what things could be done to fulfil them, how much it would cost, where the money would come from. Some politically and economically trained person would explain how the economy is presently working now, and how that would be affected. Shouting would be allowed until silenced by a bell then a siren or loud-hailer! Seriously, if people are to take part and start questioning things then it would be best to allow for irritation and anger, with strict limits.
A coffee cart would be there and after an hour there would be a short break. Then perhaps people could choose groups they were interested in or which they related to – and make bullet points headings of the main subjects with, ten word description of items that people had seen as important. ie Health –
Maternity – more time with help, recovery before going home.
At present it is very anti-climactic. If you vote at home, this important matter will be in a mental list, perhaps after you go to town, play sport etc. If first thing, then it is done in the spirit of ‘Get this over and done with now’ possibly with not much thought before or when carried out. Same if doing it over your phone device. There is little sense of occasion.
If you travel to a polling booth, you have to look up maps perhaps, make a journey. Hard perhaps if in Auckland just getting there. It’s not as big as travelling to Bethlehem on a donkey when Jesus Christ was born during a census, but transport and distance can cause problems.
When you get to the polling booth there is the procedure, you make your mark, drop your voting paper through the right slot, and then, well that’s it. If we want people to take voting seriously which is needed, then make something of the day, a celebration that we have democracy which we take for granted, it’s been hard-win and eady to lose like money. Throughout the day a series of performances by local artists, school children, a reading
from a NZ book for half an hour, to anyone who cares to listen. Make something of it to remember and talk about till next time. Rules apply, singing the actual credo of a Party with backing group, would not be allowed. But at present you can’t have rosettes, balloons in Party colours. Only people who have no ideas or values to motivate them would be influenced by such things. Drop the sterile atmosphere. Put limits on top of behaviour not right at the bottom to stop anything advantaging one or the other.
Let’s celebrate, be glad, be serious, and encourage people to participate!
Yes I thought Sanctuary had some excellent ideas. Celebrating franchise is also needed. Perhaps historical presentations of the history of democracy?
Children could take part.
Sorry, Sanctuary, but i think that’s a dreadful idea. How would a new party (which would have no funding from votes) ever break through? Your system would entrench the two-party hold on most of the funding. Even a party like the Greens would really struggle.
Parties already get allocated campaign money on the basis of their previous election result, but all parties have ongoing running costs and that includes in non-campaign years.
Plus, I don’t know if you’re a party member, but your figure of $500 is hugely above the current costs of party membership. The annual membership for Labour, for example is $5 for unwaged members, rising in stages to $60 for those earning more than $45000. If income from other sources was cut, membership costs would have to rise hugely, meaning lower income people wouldn’t have a chance to be members. Is this what you want?
Parties currently fundraise in all sorts of ways – raffles and garage sales and quiz nights and shared events… My branch of Labour has had a wonderful guy keep us afloat for many years by skip-diving at the end of the year, rescuing text books being thrown away by students and then putting them up for sale at the start of the next year. Brilliant – reduces waste, saves money for the next set of book-owners and raises money for a cause he believes in. Why should that be seen as a problem?
Yes, allowing private funding opens the door to big money influencing parties, but decent disclosure laws and caps on funding from single sources can help to mitigate that. I certainly wouldn’t endorse your approach.
Interesting ideas.
I agree with the first idea, but $500 is quite high – out of reach for many. I’d prefer something pegged to the median wage and topping out at about $200. I’d add that these should only be individual members – no corporations, trusts or unions.Getting back to the days of mass membership parties would be a good thing.
The second and third ideas are good in principle though I feel that each is effectively the same as the other in terms of the outcome they would produce. In which case you may need only one of them and the voucher idea is possibly better in terms of involving the voter.
Is that what they have been up to?
I would much rather be shown that they had been carrying out the Ministerial duties for which they are so handsomely rewarded.
The Census is probably the single most important thing that the Stats Department are going to be doing during Shaw’s tenure as Minister. Shouldn’t he have been ensuring that it was being done properly, rather than discussing whether or not he is allowed to accept a cup of tea and a biscuit when he is asked to open Venable Villa’s Vegan Vegetables for Velociraptors Greenhouse?
It is a bit late to be showing an interest in the subject by delivering some forms to a retirement home just a few days before the Census date.
Can we expect a shambles like the Australian one in 2016?
“The Census is probably the single most important thing that the Stats Department are going to be doing during Shaw’s tenure as Minister. “
Given the priority you seem to have placed on the census, what is your opinion of National deciding not to do the 2011 census. Despite the declaration of a national emergency – it was a regional one. And all the preparation had been done. It would have been the first indication of the state of the nation after the government had taken power. As it was we had to wait another two years, and a further year before that information was available to the public.
The census was set by the Nact’s before the election. So Shaw winds up presiding over their mess unfortunately.
It also has delivery flaws (deliberate?) that will compromise lesser enabled groups.
Firstly the mail has to arrive and coverage of that is far from perfect. If it doesn’t then we are relying on pickup from radio? television/ posters ?? some thing else because a lot of people are going to be blindingly unaware that this is even happening.
To fill it in on line means that a household has to have a computer and the ability to pay about $900 per annum for the various line fees.
Otherwise some one has to phone ( on a prepay?) and hang on until the money runs out (and hope it is answered first) to get a form delivered.
And then it appears that the lot is going to be entered in that great big Nat database that we should all be very worried about.
Exactly RedBaronCV
It’s a worry about today’s governments. To me it seem they are behaving more like arrogant monarchs not true representatives of the people. Government to them, is a place that rich people further enrich themselves, or middle incomers can make really good contacts for future gain.
And statistics – mostly it’s bad news. If you don’t bother with stats you save yourself a lot of grief think the politicians. Simple! We were lucky we haven’t yet had a PM or Cabinet Minister with the attitude of Canada’s pre Trudeau. (If Shaw tried this we would have his guts for garters, and I can’t think that he ever would do something so against our interests.):
Stephen Joseph Harper PC is a Canadian economist, entrepreneur, and retired politician who served as the 22nd Prime Minister of Canada, from February 6, 2006, to November 4, 2015. Wikipedia.
This faux politician took some political duties very lightly especially records on the environment and ordered, allowed the throwing out of decades of historic records.
(Thought, when that mixture of economist, entrepreneur etc shows up in some pollies CV, pass them by.)
The date of the census was set very simply. It is simply five years after the previous one. It was the postponement of the 2011 version to 2013 that was different.
Shaw has been in the job for nearly five months now. Thus the bulk of the organising will have been done since he got the responsibility and he has had plenty of time to see that it runs properly. It’s his baby and if it gets screwed up its his fault.
Someone like Twyford in Housing can justifiably blame the preceding Government for a full term. That is, as long as he can show that improvements are taking place and there is some real progress by that time. If there are only a trivial increase in houses during the first term he deserves to be kicked but he cannot be expected to have solved all the problems in 3 years.
Not so with Shaw and the Census. Any problems were caused while he was in charge and he should, justifiably carry the can for anything that goes wrong. Hopefully, of course, everything will go smoothly.
Hopefully.
It has been 128 days since swearing in of this Government on 26 October 2017 so this hardly equates to “been in the job for nearly five months now”. I’ll give you a bonus point for effort though.
Have you got first-hand experience with organising the Census or are you simply making wild claims & accusations?
You also seem to like playing the blame-game; do you think this is helpful in any way, shape or form?
The number to ring for census forms is an 0800 number. It is free, a mobile phone with no credit will get through.
All information is kept confidential and protected by the Statistics Act 1975
Right & despite all the so called confidentiality somehow we have this large data base for “social investment” that was created without anyone having a say so people can be tracked . we should believe you??
Having had some years ago the experience of our local community newsletter publishing the data from our local mesh blocks to find I was pretty much identifiable even the old system had massive flaws.
And of course the Statistics act can be changed by any future government to give themselves access to the data???
Hi Baron, I don’t mind if you believe me or not. I don’t care how many languages are spoken in your house or the age of the occupants.
I feel the information gathered is a very useful tool for planning for our country’s future. Where will we need new schools in 10 years, how many effected by a 1 metre sea rise etc. If you disagree with me, yes I can see how you would feel any information requested of you would be unnecessary delving into your private life.
Yes a government could change the privacy laws as they relate to the Statistics Act at will. Just as they could ban recreational fishing, like a fool, I still bought a new reel.
I understand much of the data for Social Investment was gathered from Work and Income. Again, personally, I’ve found that having as much information as possible prior to formulating a plan has assisted me in making better decisions. If I could identify a region where there are many unemployed youth not in training and a shortage of housing I feel it’s an effective way of determining where I should be establishing a Trades Polytech.
Okay so we can agree it’s not particularly confidential.
As to being a useful planning tool for the countries future , There is plenty of information available of the type you are discussing on other data bases.
And FYI the questions about house ownership were first put in about 15 years ago at the instigation of the IRD who plan only how to collect taxes.
But note there are not too many questions in there trying to measure the aggregation of wealth in the hands of How many???
It doesn’t ask how many houses people own, or the number of hectares of land so how can we make good decisions with slanted information? Does it ask people how many times they have been downsized or laid off . What is their workplace attitude to unions?
It doesn’t ask businesses about how many jobs they have outsourced or their pay bands. whether they have moved jobs off to Auckland or not?
And you say social investment is taken from MSD – but it was a great deal more than that. And why is it only okay to see social investment or cost around MSD. It’s then just bash a beneficiary database. What about tax cheats , those who minimise taxes or go to private schools with large subsidies?? Massive costs to the community.
With the large amount of data now collected from other sources and over shared the census is just another excessive intrusion.
So many people will be missed off the 2018 census.
Many homeless people I work alongside have no access to computers or home addresses where paperwork can be delivered. They also missed out on voting last year.
And many elderly people with no computers and little support from families able to assist have just given up.
Nor were the homeless included when papers were hand delivered to households.
At the library where I work, staff were expecting an influx of people using library computers to fill in the census forms – so far it doesn’t seem to have happened.
So, I am wondering also if many less well of people won’t complete a census form.
Last night I submitted an online request for a paper form – I don’t trust submitting that much of my info from my internet connection. At the end it said allow a week for delivery of the forms. Well, it took at least a week for them to collect my last census form (2013?) – even though I completed it on census night.
I’ve just looked at the stats website. Unless its hiding some where pretty obscure they don’t have any postal addresses for themselves on the site.
https://www.stats.govt.nz/contact-us?
Which does not have a postal address – or phone numbers if you look.
When I’m trying to be helpful I usually don’t provide completely useless links 😉
When you click on the link you land on a page with the following question:
Select the following:
Scroll down and you’ll see:
With maps even!
You’re welcome 😉
oops my bad sorry
I thought this was an interesting read:
https://i.stuff.co.nz/environment/101880364/running-from-the-sea-how-mass-relocation-could-save-coastal-communities
Issues about what to do with houses too close to the sea…
A.
No-one mentioned one of the obvious ways to recoup some costs. As the Insurance Council says, this is no accident. Fossil fuel companies and those who’ve attacked science and scientists are responsible for this crime.
You want to put a tax on climate change deniers??
Large fines for perpetuating fraud might be more appropriate.
Yep. No new laws required. Fraud, for personal financial gain. Motive, means, and opportunity.
Meanwhile on Earth
…states are suing rather than applying the criminal law.
I wouldn’t rule out criminal charges just yet.
Well, let us know when you can get a NZ court to award tens of millions of damages against oil companies for causing global warming.
In the meantime, people need to figure out what to do with coastal property.
A.
They’re not causing global warming. They’re contributing to it on a very large scale without taking meaningful steps to mitigate the environmental damage.
(despairs)
Actually, the charge should be mass murder because that’s what these companies that are actively opposing change that will stop our contribution to climate change. That’s what they’re actually doing – committing mass murder.
(Despair intensifies)
Oil companies are the weapons manufacturer. I’m pulling the trigger and shooting the environment.
I can choose not to have a gun and buy a horse, natural fibre shirt and sail rather than fly.
The oil companies are merely meeting my demands. The damage is down to me, not them.
Are we doing that though?
Or is it that the we want the gun removed but the lobbying by the gun manufacturers of the politicians keeps the guns available?
Hopefully they start large lawsuits, just like tobacco.
“We will put tariffs on Harley-Davidson, on bourbon and on blue jeans – Levi’s.
“We are here and they will get to know us. We would like a reasonable relationship to the United States, but we cannot simply put our head in the sand.”
https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2018/mar/02/markets-fall-trump-tariffs-uk-construction-may-pound-brexit-carney-live
And thats their friend and ally Europe….cant wait for the Chinese response
The causes of the Great Depression were complex but protectionism wasn’t one of them:
In fact, when I was at Uni we were taught that trade in the early 20th century was freer than what we have now. So, it’s more accurate to say that free-trade caused the Great Depression.
Same as it caused the GFC.
“In fact, when I was at Uni we were taught that trade in the early 20th century was freer than what we have now. So, it’s more accurate to say that free-trade caused the Great Depression.”
Meh…go to a new start point and you could argue the opposite….the point of interest is the impact on the current situation of a trade war…and irrespective of the original cause the impact will not be positive (at least in the short term)
The markets are a time bomb waiting for a trigger…..
The re-writing of history is a very important point as it means that the wrong lessons are learned.
I shouldn’t need to say that.
and while youre busy trying to feel superior the fact remains that once again the dispossessed of the world are very likely to be shafted yet again.
Self styled “independent journalist”, Vanessa Beeley makes the slaughter of civilians acceptable, drawing a laugh from her credulous audience by making the suffering of babies and their desperate caregivers subject for ridicule.
http://orient-news.net/en/news_show/134365/0/Syrian-childrens-trauma-is-a-laughing-matter%E2%80%94if-you-are-Vanessa-Beeley
These talks have been hosted by the Communist Party of Great Britain Marxist-Leninist (CPGB-ML), which openly supports and glorifies Josef Stalin.
Worth keeping in mind that there are parts of the left barely distinguishable from fascists. Not surprised they love Assad’s work.
Here’s Vanessa Beeley’s response to a piece on her Bristol presentation by Clara Connolly (that the Amr Salahi piece appears to lean on quite heavily)
Worth noting that she characterises the SSUK as a hard-line proponent of regime change in Syria, promoting active intervention by NATO state powers, including a Libya-style no-fly zone. Its narrative assumes a ‘popular revolution’, the total veracity of Western propaganda, and the validity of propaganda constructs like the White Helmets.
In other words, the SSUK promotes the self same line as interventionist western governments.
And I haven’t ever met a Marxist Leninist who would have anything good to say about Stalin btw, so fuck knows where Amr Salahi gets that line from. 🙂 But if Marxist Leninists are barely distinguishable from fascists, then what of the Trot orgs that are full on behind western interventionism? They obviously don’t “love Assad’s work”.
So, where’s the fascism residing? Or is it just one of those lazy pieces of bullshit you like to throw at people who’s politics you don’t like, understand, or oppose?
…I haven’t ever met a Marxist Leninist who would have anything good to say about Stalin…
And I haven’t ever met one who accepted that the murderous totalitarian regimes instituted by Marxist-Leninists last century had anything to do with Marxism-Leninism, nor one who would fail to defend those very same regimes (eg, “the Red Army saved Europe from the Nazis!”).
So, where’s the fascism residing?
In supporting the violent overthrow of democratic government and its replacement with the absolute authority of a political party with totalitarian aims, an expansionist outlook and a ruthless willingness to crush dissent, maybe? I get that Marxist-Leninists like to pretend that’s not their aim, but given that it’s been the outcome every time they’ve had a go at it, what they say their aims are counts for shit. It’s results that count.
You skirt the point you were challenged on.
If it’s no surprise that Marxist/ Leninists would “love Assad’s work” (being that they’re fascist and all) then how would you explain the position of the no less fascist Trots who call for Assad’s overthrow?
Assad and the Syrian government were voted into office btw. And their election process (whatever the faults) was much more legitimate and more widely participated in than that for Poroshenko of Ukraine.
I do find it odd how liberals in general seem to have no problem with Poroshenko – and that in spite of the Ukrainian governments overt fascism (not “indistinguishable” from, but actual) – while routinely calling for the violent overthrow of a government in a country where the country’s armed forces are slogging it out against the supposed no. 1 enemy of western governments and even (some say) western ideas of civilisation.
It wouldn’t be they so thoughtlessly and eagerly buy into the “evil Russia” line of neo-cons and liberal interventionists that even thought becomes an enemy lest it renders the veil of western benevolence and humanitarian virtue to reveal a monster – that might not really be so distinguishable from fascism. It’s just a thought.
You skirt the point you were challenged on.
The point I was challenged on was “there are parts of the left barely distinguishable from fascists.” I’ve explained the basis for that claim, ie parts of the left “…supporting the violent overthrow of democratic government and its replacement with the absolute authority of a political party with totalitarian aims, an expansionist outlook and a ruthless willingness to crush dissent…”
I didn’t address the fact that some of these leftist totalitarians disagree with other leftist totalitarians on some things because I don’t see how it’s relevant to my point.
I do find it odd how liberals in general seem to have no problem with Poroshenko – and that in spite of the Ukrainian governments overt fascism (not “indistinguishable” from, but actual) – while routinely calling for the violent overthrow of a government in a country where the country’s armed forces are slogging it out against the supposed no. 1 enemy of western governments and even (some say) western ideas of civilisation.
It ceases to become odd if you take into account that liberals don’t accept your framing.
…lest it renders the veil of western benevolence and humanitarian virtue to reveal a monster – that might not really be so distinguishable from fascism.
OK, now it’s your turn. How might liberal democracy not really be so distinguishable from fascism?
The pretty obvious inference from your comment, and the one I questioned, was that (barely distinguishable from) fascists are supportive of fascists (ie – in your view, the Syrian government).
But you can’t explain why Trots (no less barely distinguishable than Marxist Leninist’s) wish to see the overthrow of the very same Syrian government.
I’m happy enough to enter into a discussion on liberalism and fascism once you’ve cleared that one up in some way that makes sense.
It already makes sense if you take it as written rather than inferring things from it. As written:
…there are parts of the left barely distinguishable from fascists. Not surprised they love Assad’s work.
So:
1. Parts of the left share features of fascism.
2. So does the Assad regime.
3. Therefore it’s not surprising if they support Assad.
You seem to be assuming that if you present a leftist totalitarian group opposed to Assad, my argument (being generous to it) above is refuted. I don’t see how – my conclusion leaves open the possibility of not all leftist totalitarian groups supporting Assad. In fact, you’d be mad to treat leftist totalitarians as monolothic, they seem to hate other factions more than they hate capitalism. It’s not hard to see why Trotskyists would hate a Stalinist outfit like the Baath Party, just as its not hard to see how the Stalinists would be keen on the Baath Party. In short, I’m not seeing your point.
The Ba’ath Party formed as a separate entity to the existing Communist Party of the time. It’s very much about Arab identity and anti-colonialism. So it really is a stretch to suggest it has Stalinist roots or is currently Stalinist.
That aside.
We’ve got to the point where, in spite of your original comment to the contrary, it actually can be surprising if parts of the left barely distinguishable from fascists support the Syrian government.
And that’s leaving aside how fascist or not fascist the Syrian government may be.
The concept “not surprising if this group of authoritarians likes a particular authoritarian regime” is not incompatible with the concept “but perhaps this other group of authoritarians doesn’t like that particular authoritarian regime.” That was as true this morning as it is this evening, so we haven’t really got to any point with this baffling dispute.
A difference between your first comment and your latest one is that you’ve (potentially) put yourself in the picture. 😉
From ‘fascists’ (or barely distinguishable from) to simply and much more broadly ‘those with a penchant to follow’.
And that cuts up the same in the bigger picture, no matter which side’s mast any liberal, leftist or fascist authoritarian may choose to pin their colours to.
Whatever. For my part, the idea that enthusiasts for totalitarianism might favour an authoritarian dictatorship over liberal democracies shouldn’t be a controversial one.
Also: a cubic zirconium is “barely distinguishable” from a diamond. That doesn’t make it a diamond. If we’re going to get pedantic about definitions, let’s do it properly.
Your idea isn’t controversial. The bit your missing is that authoritarianism (fascism as far as this exchange is concerned) lies in the act of following. And as far as that’s true, the seeds of fascism already exist in liberal democracy where we’re habituated to the idea of following. All that’s required then, is some particular set of circumstances for fascism to flourish.
In terms of Syria (and this feeds somewhat into the stuff Sabine was saying) it’s then incidental whether support is lent to something characterised as authoritarian or not.
What matters is that support is being lent; that people representing grand ideas are being followed. That gifts the “high priests” of whatever political ideology the power and ability to extend their power and to bomb, maim and create general misery to achieve that end.
Some Stalinist supporting the Syrian government is not in a position that’s any different to some granny McTavish supporting western governments, or to some East London kid supporting whatever Army of God.
It’s all the same unless a position of exceptionalism is mounted for “our team” – which is kinda what everyone who supports a, b or c tends to do. And so the hellish mess roils on.
Jenny
Why don’t you submit a post separately from Open Mike
A lot of readers just aren’t interested and the subject seems to attract a lot of trollish ad hominem responses.
Those who aren’t interested would be spared the inconvenience of wading through a lot of inflammatory retorts
I myself don’t agree with you but am willing to enter into debate without rancour
I don’t blame people for resenting the ugliness that appears on these threads, from all sides
“Jenny
Why don’t you submit a post separately from Open Mike”
Yes please do Jenny
I’ll be moderating pretty tightly, but I think people got the message yesterday that the abuse and personalised attacks have to stop. Jenny has the same rights to post in OM as anyone else, so long as she doesn’t spam the site, and keeps within the rules herself.
If on the other hand you are wanting these comments generally to happen outside of OM, check out Antoine’s suggestion below. I’d welcome feedback on that.
Perhaps a ‘NZ politics and current affairs’ OM, and another for everything else?
it’s definitely the Syria, and US/Russia conversations that are the problem though, so I wouldn’t want to put NZ pol in with that.
Are the conversations themselves the problem, or is it how people are engaging?
Open Mike is for people to discuss whatever interests them. It’s never going to be the case that every thread of conversation is to everyone’s liking (not their cuppa).
The reason no posts have gone up about Syria (just speaking for myself here, but besides CV, I’m not really aware of who else was putting up Syria posts), is that engagement as thoughtless personal abuse, always coming from the same predictable quarters, alongside the same old debunked lines getting recycled ad nauseam was just too much of an arse to be bothered with.
Bill
It’s all very well for you to criticise other commenters. But what you are missing, is that the problem this site has with Syria discussions, is in large part your fault.
You lose your rag, abuse people and (if it’s your thread) hand out bans.
Even today, the day after the Open Mike splurgle, here you are launching into PM with “Or is it just one of those lazy pieces of bullshit you like to throw at people who’s politics you don’t like, understand, or oppose?”
A.
[three day ban. Don’t attack authors. – weka]
As people should now be able to see, I’m taking a zero tolerance position on attacking authors. I’ve been talking about this issue for some time, including that having authors willing to write here is a priority for the site (that’s not just my thing btw, it’s a concern of all the authors). It looks like some people still aren’t listening to that, so expect some of those bans to not have personalised warnings.
To be very blunt, authors are way more important than commenters (for what should be bloody obvious reasons).
If you want to talk about moderation or an author, you need to learn to do so in respectful, no inflammatory ways. If you are unsure, ask. If you are still unsure, then just don’t say anything, or take your risk.
Edited.
Weka, I accept that authors are important to the health and ongoing vitality of the site. No argument. However, they’re not flawless and they do sometimes need to have inconsistencies or unfairnesses pointed out. When an author who often makes personal attacks complains about personal abuse, what would you see as a reasonable response?
[deleted]It’s possible to respond to disagreement without being abusive, but the shoot first, take no prisoners approach can set up an aggressive dynamic that isn’t helpful and doesn’t promote a genuine exchange of views.
I suggest you try running that argument past Lynn and see how you get on. I also suggest you spend some time looking at historical moderations done by Lynn and then try telling him that he needs to reflect on his personal style. I learned this as a commenter. There are ways to talk about moderation e.g. ask questions, but as soon as you start telling the authors what to do like you have just done, then there is a problem.
Read the Policy. Commenters don’t get to tell authors how to run the site.
You may think that authors need to have unfairness pointed out but you are still missing some fundamentals. One is don’t attack authors. Even naming an author like you just have is hard to see as anything other than having another go at them based on your own views. It is still in breach of the Policy as far as I am concerned, particularly because you have been banned for this in the past in a situation where an author was being attacked on a number fronts. You could have asked some questions about moderation without naming an author so I’m basically going wtf? at this point.
As I have said, I don’t care what problems someone has with an author, if they can’t respect these boundaries then they are going to cop a ban.
Instead of banning you I’m going to edit your post, but please take this as a warning. Stop having a go at authors. If you don’t like any commenters style, then don’t engage with them and talk to other people instead. Respect moderation and the authors is the best way to get an improvement on TS.
I’m just going to say again, that while moderators try to be evenhanded, ‘fairness’ isn’t the top priority and the sooner the commenters get this the better. Moderation is often about limiting the amount of time an author has to spend moderating. I learnt that from Lynn btw.
So how about replying to the question, then? What would you see as a reasonable response? It’s a genuine question and I think it’s a genuine issue for this site.
Just saying “avoid that author” doesn’t work when any author can moderate any discussion and start dropping personal attack into their comments, and that is the dynamic that was being discussed here.
Right, so instead of acknowledging the moderation and explanations, you’re now demanding an answer and more time from me.
here it is again. Walk away. If you don’t have the wherewithal to engage with any commenter in a way you are ok with, then don’t. .
It’s nothing to do with authors, it’s about how you are engaging here. I saw it in the comments that led to your ban and I am seeing it here now.
TS isn’t fair in the way you want it to be. The robust debate ethic takes priority over fairness. But it is possible to be here if one learns the boundaries. I’ve spent a great deal of time in the past 2 days explaining that and you are still not listening.
Fwiw, I think you would make a great author here. But instead of us talking about that, or doing something proactive about improving the site in ways that are real, here we are rehashing the same old bullshit.
For the last time. Don’t attack authors. Don’t tell us how to run the site. Don’t wast moderator time. Until you get that and abide by it, you don’t get to comment on how things here can be better by the site being run differently. By all means talk about how commenters can improve the place, that would impress me.
At the moment you are part of the problem. I really hope you turn this around for yourself, because I think you bring a lot to the site, but this is just getting ridiculous now and I’ve pretty much reached my limit.
“TS isn’t fair in the way you want it to be. The robust debate ethic takes priority over fairness. But it is possible to be here if one learns the boundaries. I’ve spent a great deal of time in the past 2 days explaining that and you are still not listening.”
Hi weka, I’ve just copied and pasted part of what you said to red-blooded above that was important to me. Thanks for explaining the aim of moderation, I have probably been one who hasn’t got the jist of moderation for a while.
Perhaps, if I’m understanding correctly if moderation is firstly seen as a way of stopping or cleaning up debate that has gone off the rails. Any bans coming from that shouldn’t be seen in the light of a bias for or against certain people, but instead primarily as a way to put a stop to bad behaviour asap.
It has been very helpful to me anyway that you’ve outlined what the moderators are trying to do and where you are coming from.
I would like to talk a bit more around the “bias” issue of moderation that doesn’t sit quite right with me, but I’m not sure if it’s safe for me to go there?
Thanks mauī
Yes, it’s mostly about behaviour where that behaviour is causing problems for the site (which can mean various things).
Often there are factors in that that are unapparent to other commenters.
A big part of it is the time moderation takes. So often decisions are about limiting the amount of time that needs to be spend on moderating. We’re volunteers here, and time spent moderating is time not writing posts or enjoying the discussion.
There also seems to be a misconception that commenters have the same rights here as authors. They don’t.
Re talking about bias, I’m personally ok for now if that’s a general conversation about principles e.g. whether moderation should or shouldn’t be bias free. I don’t think you can talk about specifics though, because I don’t trust the commentariat to not make it an attack on authors/moderation. Asking questions is good, telling the site how it should be run is off limits.
I fully understand that moderating probably isn’t fun and the less time wasted on it the better. Probably easy to forget too that the mods are volunteers, will have to remind myself of that I think.
The bias thing is probably to do with the fairness thing. If a mod steps in and someone is banned then it can look like they are taking a side and I wonder if that could cause distrust in the commentariat. That’s essentially my concern.
Thanks Bill. Even if it were my area, I wouldn’t be putting up posts about Syria either. For the same reasons. However I see the abuse and bullshit in those conversations as coming from all sides. Some of it is around the politics, but a lot is around the commentariat’s behaviour. So I agree with you that the main problem is how people are engaging. I’m hoping that the tighter moderation will help with that.
“Open Mike is for people to discuss whatever interests them. It’s never going to be the case that every thread of conversation is to everyone’s liking (not their cuppa).”
I agree and I can’t for instance see a problem with Jenny having made two comments today. But where a topic dominates OM to the extent it is putting people off, that’s a problem. If the quality of debate improves, maybe it ceases to be a problem.
But it’s possible for the quality of debate to not improve even with people stopping the more obvious abuse stuff, in which case the problem is just one of quantity. I’m thinking more of the US election where it was the sheer volume of comments that became a problem and so we temporarily provide another space for those conversations so that OM could be a good place for people not interested in them.
Am happy enough to see if it settles down for now though. It would probably help if we had more posts going up (on other topics).
The bullshit and nonsense comes from all sides. I didn’t mean to suggest it was limited.
And yes. More posts. I’ve been quiet, but then (too often) I come to the site and see…well, stuff like I saw yesterday. And it’s fucking disheartening.
Totally. I’m feeling like that too, like what is the point. I’ve stopped trying to find new authors in the meantime. I can see it would be even harder for you because the topics you tend to write on are more likely to get this whole polarised, aggravated shit going on. I still tend to not write on the topics that I know will be more work for me in the comments 🙁
The headline is rather (how to say?) eyecatching.
But the article itself doesn’t bear out the claim made in the headline. The closest we get to “children’s trauma is a laughing matter” is the claim of “70 people laughing at a premature baby caught up in a deadly airstrike and the traumatized medical staff rescuing him.”
But then, there was no premature baby (there was the corpse of a baby). There was no air strike. There are no medical staff rescuing him.
You might disagree with that. But that would most definitely be what Vanessa Beeley was presenting as reality in the face of, what she claims to be ghoulish propaganda.
So to claim there were 70 people laughing at a premature baby caught up in a deadly airstrike and the traumatized medical staff rescuing him. is bullshit no matter how you want to cut it.
And yes, I’ve seen that footage of the dead baby being taken from the incubator and presented as alive. It’s sickening.
I disagree with Beeley’s broader politics, but there’s no questioning her motivation and heart when it comes to her Syria reporting. Time and again, despite not inconsiderable effort being put into discrediting and silencing Beeley, Bartlett and others, they have been shown to be correct time after time.
It took a while, but some mainstream journalists like Fisk and Cockburn got to publishing actual journalistic pieces in mainstream outlets (some of Fisk’s reports were from within Syria) among all the stenography of government propaganda that passes itself off as journalism across the liberal interventionist media of “ours”.
The closest we get to “children’s trauma is a laughing matter” is the claim of “70 people laughing at a premature baby caught up in a deadly airstrike and the traumatized medical staff rescuing him.”
But then, there was no premature baby (there was the corpse of a baby). There was no air strike. There are no medical staff rescuing him.
Might well be so. That doesn’t make these arseholes any different from the ones on Whaleoil deriding “Pallywood” propaganda every time the Palestinians fake video of Israeli atrocities. The fact it’s a fake doesn’t make them less of an arsehole for their derision of the people suffering the attacks.
We have no idea what occasioned the laughter or what form the laughter took. Was it belly laughing? Was it dark and painful? Did it even happen?
All we know with any certainty (at least those who have paid any attention to Beeley), is that what was written in that article on the laughter front is bullshit.
The claims of derision and what not is baseless speculation on your part.
edit – the vid will be available at some apparently.
“Self styled “independent journalist””
Of course she is a self styled independent journalist. She IS an independent journalist.
Perhaps you could read her accounts of the situation in Syria that she has made while in Syria.
I just wonder why you accept the report from Orient-News. Who are they? Have they any journalists in Syria?
‘
Muhammad Najeem, the Ahed Tamimi of Eastern Ghouta
https://twitter.com/muhammadnajem20
Jenny, you need to put some of your own content in comments or at least cut and paste something from the link that shows what your point is.
Kia ora weka. Criticism taken. To expand on the point I was trying to make; It is my honest opinion that Muhammad Najeem is similar to Ahed Tamimi, in that Muhammad, like Ahed, both use the internet and social media, to hold a mirror up to show to the world the naked face of the entity that is killing his friends and family and intent on reasserting it’s brutal rule over his community and suburb.
From July 2010, (the year that I was there), Nadim Houry describes the same repressive pressure cooker police state society that I personally saw and have tried to describe.
I will endeavor to be more in depth in future.
thanks for the acknowledgement and expanding comment Jenny.
Thank you weka for your gracious response.
Just in case you missed it. Here is a link to a recent more in depth long form original keyhole view of my time in Syria during 2010.
I have also described my experiences in Syria on a number of other occassions and at some length on this forum previously.
While I will endeavor to cover this issue in more depth, some points can be made very briefly.
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-01-03-2018/#comment-1455859
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-01-03-2018/#comment-1455860
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-01-03-2018/#comment-1455863
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02-03-2018/#comment-1456274
I will try to give more in depth introductions, and or summaries in future.
Jenny, how do you feel about all of the innocents who voted for Assad, and who have been killed and maimed by western forces along with the ‘moderate rebels’ backed by the west, Saudi/Isreal with weapons, training and funding..
What are your thoughts and feelings about ‘the other side’ of the story….
You sure that wouldn’t be the Bana of Eastern Ghouta?
Y’know, the seven year old girl who was exploited to the max by her Jihadist parents during the occupation of Eastern Aleppo (and afterwards), whose every word and pronouncement our glorious mainstream media swallowed and regurgitated with not the merest hint of inquiry or doubt being allowed to enter into the picture?
You remember her, surely?!
Why Ahed Tamimi and not that most obvious of comparisons?
So many crisis actors everywhere.
[As per Andre, with the exception you’ve been warned time and again. Banned for 16 days] – Bill
there must be a crisis actor school somewhere.
Indeed there is a school for crisis actors. And talent agencies.
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/pammy8/what-is-a-crisis-actor-conspiracy-theory-explanation-parkland-shooting-sandy-hook
[Ah. I see. Thankyou for making it abundantly clear that both you and OAB are trolling. Given all the moderation notes from yesterday (that you no doubt saw, and just tough luck if you didn’t) I can only assume you have no respect for moderation, moderators, the time put in to it, or even much concern for the site. Either that or you’re simply incredibly stupid. Regardless. One week ban] – Bill
so is then everything she said wrong? I never followed the girl, i don’t follow anyone for that matter, but really what i would like to know is simple. Is what she said wrong, or is it right, but does not mesh with whom you are currently supportive of?
Are russian bombs more benevolent the n US bombs?
Is being killed by turkish forces more rightous then being killed by Assads forces.
And above all, would any of the armchair warriors, or those that subscribe to the 101st keyboard brigade have actually any idea what really is going other then utter destruction of property and live by all sides?
Or has Syria, much like Iraq in 2003 just simply become a pissing match between people who have actually no idea of anything, but want to be right!!!! And atm Russia good, but US bad – while as the past has shown on more then one occasion neither Russia – the government and ruling class – nor the US – again government and ruling class – give a flying fuck about Syrians, Iraqis, Lebanese, Jemenis, Afghanis, Palestinians or even their own Citizens? Where will that leave us? We have to take sides, and are not allowed to point out that blimey, but really, the Syrians might really not care at all which foreign force is doing the killing, just get the fuck out and let us be?
Syria does have and has had since the 1970s an alliance with Russia though. All Russian forces in Syria have been invited by the Syrian Government.
The US forces and NATO,UK,Saudi US funded terrorists? Not so much
. And again, i ask, do the dead care if it was a russian bomb or a us bomb that blew them to smithereens?
Do the limbless care that it was a russian bomb that took their legs, or a US bomb?
Does the mother care who killed her child? Does the father care ? Do the Grandparents care while trying to find their dead in the rubble?
At the end would we care if it were us?
And how legitimate is a Syrian government that is a hereditary military dictatorship? People don’t find it hard to work out in the case of North Korea.
Syrian governance isn’t predicated on the notion of there being a hereditary military dictatorship. So there you go. (Illegitimate) question answered.
Right – so Assad’s dad wasn’t a military dictator and his dad wasn’t either – good to know.
“In schools, children were taught to sing songs of adulation about Hafez al-Assad. Teachers began each lesson with the song “Our eternal leader, Hafez al-Assad”.
Now, where have we seen that before Bill?
There have been democratic elections in Syria.
Assad’s grandfather wasn’t president of Syria. Here’s a link to Syrian Presidents. if you look at it really closely, you’ll see that even under Baathist one party rule (there are now multi-party elections) there are five Presidents with different surnames.
edit – God save the Queen 🙄
The Gulf Cooperation Council, the European Union and the United States dismissed the election as illegitimate. Attempts to hold an election under the circumstances of an ongoing civil war were criticized by UN secretary general Ban Ki-moon, and it was widely reported that the elections lacked independent election monitoring.
You mean the very institutions and groupings that are seeking to overthrow the government of Syria dismissed the government elections as illegitimate?! Well, well, well.
Oh I don’t think the EU can be just fitted into that argument Bill – you’ll have to do better than that.
But I don’t imagine you will.
There are no crippling EU sanctions being applied to Syria Stuart?
What makes you think the EU doesn’t want the Syrian government replaced? What effect do you imagine sanctions are meant to have?
“the EU doesn’t want the Syrian government replaced”
Well of course the EU wants the Syrian government replaced – it’s a hereditary military dictatorship. Any reasonably progressive group wants it replaced.
The EU changes the character of the endorsement however – the US has been known to subordinate humanitarian policy to imperial policy – as Russia does. And often they can take the UN with them – especially when more progressive nations have round-heeled and backward regimes like Key’s. The EU neither has particularly expansionist foreign policy nor is it reliably a US poodle.
“God save the Queen” – in a monarchy yes – lifetime rule for a president? Only if they’re a sham like Park, Putin, or Assad.
The reference to God save the Queen was merely in response to you being apparently aghast at school kids being encouraged to nurture or exhibit a sense of adulation.
I could have picked up on US school children “saluting” the flag every morning. Same thing. Adulation.
Monarchy, presidency, a flag….it’s all the same.
No it’s not.
“Eternal leadership” is at odds with pretending to any kind of democracy. The Poms have a workaround by running their monarch in parallel to the current government. But the Assads are more dynastic, like the Kims.
How legitimate is the Syrian government? Ask these observers.
The tweets purporting to come from seven year old Bana were in fact written by her Jihadist mother (Bana, unlike her mother, speaks very, very little English), contained very adult concepts and invariably reflected the regime change narrative of western governments.
But it was good propaganda to have all this stuff seeming to come from a seven year old girl.
There have been questions asked as to whether the tweets could even have been coming from East Aleppo given cell phone and net coverage issues. All I know for sure is that Bana’s family showed up in Turkey straight after the recapture of Eastern Aleppo having a private audience/photo op with Erdogan.
as i said, i don’t follow this. I have long given up trying to find reason in war, no matter who drops the bombs.
What i do know is that neither you nor i live there, and that the women writing the tweets has more rights to an opinion then you do. She is living there, she has seen her country be blown to rubble, her live upended to never return, friends die. This is something that you can’t just ‘brush’ aside as propaganda – btw, propaganda that you don’t support 🙂 – that is her reality, even if you don’t support her politics.
I don’t support either side, i want all sides to get the fuck out and go home. That includes the Russians, the Turks, the US, and any other band of merry mercenary that is there to make a killing.
We- and yes, WE die (cause they would do the same to us if they find enough reason in it) and the weapon manufacturers laugh all the way to the bank, while people discuss whose bombs are more righteous.
The woman had and has the right to say whatever she wants.
The right to exploit a seven year old child in order that what she says gets carried in lead news stories in the west? Not so much.
And as is the case with anyone saying anything, it’s helpful to know who they are and where they’re coming from. Stuff isn’t neutral.
So a woman who’s just a citizen in a war zone saying stuff is very different to a Jihadist saying stuff where they are directly responsible for the war.
And a Jihadist saying stuff but passing themselves off as just a citizen ought to be “called out”. Using a seven year old girl into the bargain just compounds the deceit.
(And yes, it’s fairly well established that Bana’s parents were jihadists engaged in combat)
edit – I agree wholeheartedly that all groups “messing” in peoples’ lives (whether government approved/sanctioned or not) should fuck off and disappear, never to be seen again.
“i want all sides to get the fuck out and go home.” Really
And what do you think Syrians want?
I don’t know. I don’t pretend to know what they think, but i would assume that they are tired of the destruction of their country and that if they could vote they would want anyone who comes with bombs, death and destruction and excuses for bombs death and destruction to fuck off.
But again, i don’t know what they want, i am not a syrian.
“if they could vote”
They did vote. In 2014. A 80something% turnout. 77% voted for the present government and President.
Mind, this was 2 years into the war so I guess they chose the party and leader they felt most capable of ridding the country of the mercenary headchoppers.
I don’t know every Syrian in Syria, but those I do know most certainly want all ‘who comes with bombs, death and destruction and excuses for bombs death and destruction to fuck off.’
if you do know that, than i don’t know what your comment to me was about.
Again, i don’t have a side in this, i am not affected by this – other then being a human who is very much against the dropping of bombs in order to win a pissing match.
And i consider the bullshit between Russia and the US nothing more a pissing match at the very least and at the very worst a positioning for geopolitical influence in which the locals are the ones offered up for slaughtered in order to win a suburb, a neighborhood, or as it was said a long time ago, nothing new on the western front.
Wouldn’t we all Sabine.
Not only that but for all the foreign backers of various groups to shut their wallets and their arms transfers
For all the uninvited powers licking their lips at the prospect of the spoils of war to be divvied up ,to fuck off and once and for all leave the MENA alone.
And while we’re at it , arms dealing made illegal
Shut down the arms trade and we might see a bit of traction.
Meanwhile, whats the Syrian govt to do?
Roll over and let , for instance the Saudi funded militants in East Ghouta keep on firing hell cannons and mortars in to schools and residential areas in Damascus?
How about leaning on the Saudis to lean on their protogees in E Ghouta to stop firing on humanitarian corridors created to allow civilians to get the hell out?
Kia ora Bill. You are not the first to raise that comparison.
And I agree, it is apt one.
In answer to your question:
I could have referred to Bana al-Abed, then 7 years old case, and thank you Bill for bringing it up.
It is just that Ahed Tamimi’s experience and example seemed to me, to most resemble fellow teenager, Muhammad Najeem’s.
Post an actual argument Jenny.
Set out a position.
I think Jenny’s position is quite clear Ad from the first comment she made on Open Mike yesterday where she posted an open letter to the Russian Consulate in Auckland calling for a Russia to actively support a humanitarian ceasefire.
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02-03-2018/#comment-1455893
I have to say I agree with her stance
There are many here who, for what ever reason I cannot fathom, do not.
Macro
The ceasefire does not cover ISIS, Al Queda, ALNusra or affiliated groups. The Saudi sponsored Army of Islam and the Qatari sponsored Failak al Rahman share the territory with those forementioned terrorist designated groups
Its that problem of “separation” again
So Russia is called upon to rein in the Iranians and Syrians, but are the Sauds and Qataris being called upon to rein in their protogees?
So far I have not heard of such a thing.
For the ceasefire to work , ALL parties signed up to it must comply, not just one side.
https://www.voanews.com/a/united-nations-aid-chief-says-syria-cease-fire-yet-to-be-implemented/4274874.html
Of course they will not cease fighting until the bombing and bombardment from Russian backed forces also stops. It takes time for a ceasefire to work – the 5 hour stoppage (in contravention to the pledge the agreed to in the Security council) is little more than a cynical “lolly”.
Good old Voice of America eh?
And so the Qataris and Saudis and Turks in the case of Ahrar al Sham have been told to leverage their protogees to comply?
Which was my point.
And I say good luck to them in their turf wars with al Queda , Al Nusra,and Hay’at Tahrir al-Sham.
Nice guys ,all of them , salafists and sharia law fanatics
I’m SURE they’ll abide peacefully
and their promise to expel those banned groups is little more than a buying time device, as it was in Aleppo
Yes I’m sure RT is far more authoritative.
But AFAIK the UN has not denied the report of the letter.
Meanwhile:
http://www.unocha.org/syria
13.1M People in need of humanitarian assistance
5.6M People who fled the country
6.1M People internally displaced by violence
What a lame line – oh you watch RT. Why don’t you just use the other attack lines against people – Russophile, Putain supporter or what your new one – that right, alt right. It would be at least a bit more honest.
But lets address RT, it has an editorial approach which is simple to understand, and then decode – it’s Pro-Russia. Bit like the BBC, with its pro British establishment stance. Sorted, watch RT know your getting Russian propaganda. However and I think you comment is a bit off becasue francesca raised concerns about head choppers and other groups of far right fundamentalist persuasion.
Coupled with the problem of their continued support by foreign governments. Instead you run with the line Russia did it. It’s a civil war – DID YOU MISS THAT. It’s messy as all hell, by its very nature. To yell and scream one side is bad guys just does not help. Try looking at the bigger picture rather than thinking the propaganda your spewing on here, is somehow better than anyone else’s.
For the record just in case you forgot – the only people I support in all this mess in the Kurds, and they are being attacked by the Turkish government and far right fundamentalist as we speak.
17 Kurds were killed by Turkish air force dropping bombs yesterday. No ceasefire there.
https://www.voanews.com/a/report-turkey-attacks-pro-syrian-forces/4277331.html
Where is the RT reference, Macro?
Or is that a deliberate tactic to minimize, while appealing to ‘your authority’…
You appear to be in denial about how those stats you’ve quoted, climbed as high as they have…
Taking sides is an amateur move…
@ Adam and 12
francesca wanted to deny the report by diminishing it, implying that anything from Voice of America could not be taken seriously.
Nowhere has the UN denied the word of their spokes person Jan Egeland, the Special Advisor to the UN Special Envoy for Syria.
Russia and Syria are promoting delaying tactics to implementing a ceasefire, in a fight where millions of people are in a humanitarian crisis – even thought Russia has agreed to the UN resolution of a ceasefire.
In fact the ceasefire resolution does address the groups francesca mentioned. The main offenders during the 5 hour ceasefire were not from those groups, but bombing and chlorine gas attacks by Syrian forces.
This is a conflict that has been ongoing for 8 years now. It will not be settled by fighting, and to continually ignore the plight of noncombatants is an indictment on all of us.
Adam – whataboutism is not a logical argument, and this fact has been pointed out to you before.
12 – if you doubt the validity of the statistics – I suggest you take that up with the UN.
Macro, are you doing it deliberately or is that your level?…
Delaying tactics from Russia, gas attacks by the Syrian forces…
I did not question the report, I questioned your bias which is farcical…really it is…
You appear to be in denial about how those stats you’ve quoted, climbed as high as they have…
Bold so you can see the words…
American Saudi and Israeli funded and armed ‘moderate rebels’
Why do you keep ignoring that mainstream fact?…
I’m not the one showing bias 12.
The figures I quote are taken directly from the UN. If you have a problem with that then as I suggested above – take it up with them.
I suggest you take a few minutes to actually read the most recent report on the crisis as described by the UN.
Here is some of that report here:
my bold so you can see the statistic that has been quoted.
For more read the above link.
To see the figures I quoted above to franseca wrt to number leaving the country and internally displaced you need to follow that link that I posted there. Those too are figures given by the UN wrt Syria.
It is deliberate…you’ve confirmed that…as if it wasn’t already obvious…
Your comprehension simply can’t be that poor…copying/mirroring my approach…you’re not a child…
Do you understand that figures inside the UN report (accurate or not) have been contributed to by uninvited and illegal foreign invaders?…
Do you understand that innocents have been killed maimed displaced by uninvited and illegal foreign invaders?…
Does your chronic and farcical bias allow to you accept that blatant ‘truth’…
Certainty does not appear so…
🙄
So the UN is an uninvited invader?
You can find out more about the UN’s humanitarian response to Syria here:
http://www.unocha.org/country/syrian-arab-republic/syria-country-profile/syria-country-profile
I think they know a little more about the situation in Syria than you do.
You do understand that the Assad regime is not innocent in the murder of it’s civilians?
The UN resolution para 7
I think you should be looking in the mirror when you say that. When you deny the resolutions of the 15 member states of the UN security council – including Russia and China. You deny the very people on the ground in Syria who beg for this cease fire. And in doing so you deny humanity.
So the UN is an uninvited invader
WOW…That’s where you’re at now…such a steep decline…
Point to where I’m talking about the UN, Macro..Or Denying the report…
US SAUDI ISRAEL funding and arming terrorists
Along with others are illegally waging war inside a sovereign nation without permission to be operating inside its boarders…
You can’t bring yourself to acknowledge that fact…which is why you’re acting the dolt by deflecting and avoiding…
As I’ve said…
Taking sides is an amateur move, and you’re comments are a farce…
Along with your inability to call out anyone not named Assad or Putin…
What happens if you call out US SAUDI or ISRAEL..?
I think it’s time for your bed time 12
Your comments are becoming more and more irrational and FYI “whataboutism” is not a valid form of argument.
I’ve laid out my argument clearly, Citizens of the world look to the UN to be involved and to help resolve matters of conflict and aid in areas of humanitarian crisis.
I’ve said my piece – mainly as an means of conveying information to the rest of the Standard community because I realise that any attempt at sensible discussion where you are involved is useless. Should you reply to this comment – don’t expect me to respond as I’m fed up with trying to reason to a closed mind.
You’re claiming to be avoiding ‘whataboutism’ as an excuse for your naked bias, Macro…
You ‘think’ I’m using ‘whataboutism’…nah …there’s something more going on with you here…
My questions and requests have been unabiguous, so you have no excuse…
I’ll speculate that you’ve possibly been brainwashed by the ‘jobs’ you’ve stated as having…
Your ‘career’ in the public service is a disservice to NZ and humanity in general, if using your tactics and comments as evidence…
As a human being who is free from bias and CAN call out all sides as being responsible**…
I find your naked bias and those who share your ethos to be as culpable as those dropping the bombs…
Closed minds choose sides, macro…you’ve chosen sides…shamelessly…
As far as I’m aware, that ceasefire doesn’t have a start date. Most in the UN security council (I have no idea where China stood) originally wanted an immediate 30 day ceasefire. Russia vetoed because of that word “immediate’. In the end a 30 day ceasefire was agreed, but the date from when it should commence wasn’t fixed.
Meanwhile, opening up corridors for five hours a day isn’t a nothing. It’s certainly far more than was ever on offer for people similarly trapped in Mosul and (though constantly monkey-wrenched by the city’s occupying terrorists) worked for some residents of Aleppo.
And it’s certainly much, much more than anything Turkey is doing.
Bill – it takes hours for a cease fire to be implemented. There has already been an attempt to institute a 5 hour cease-fire which saw continued if lesser firing and thus no possible chance for delivering humanitarian aid. According to the aid agencies currently waiting to deliver aid they need far more time than 5 hours for their convoys to get in and out safely certainly no time to evacuate the seriously wounded, etc.
https://globalnews.ca/news/4056626/syria-war-five-hour-pauses-un/
as for China’s position:
It would be useful to read (and quote from) the resolution attached to the press release instead of just quoting from the press release.
Ok the resolution is at the end of the link I gave above It’s a long worded document and I didn’t want to quote it in full preferring to use the preamble in the UN press release – which actually simple repeats in part the call for a ceasefire without delay.
Here is the first paragraph of the Resolution as agreed by the UN (there are a large number of humanitarian reasons listed as to why this ceasefire has been called and they precede the resolution):
“Without delay” is an elastic term with regards time and preparation Macro. I think you’re missing that point.
If you read through the resolution, and beginning with the words following immediately after the words “without delay”, there are a number of demands that suggest rather open ended time scales and processes.
And (I guess) that why Russia, rightly or wrongly and for cynical or genuine reasons, vetoed the initial 72 hour time scale for the cessation of hostilities.
Yes I can see that “without delay” could be interpreted in that way – however the next phrase does suggest immediacy – “and engage immediately to ensure full and comprehensive implementation of this demand by all parties”. So instead of saying “ok! you have 72 hours to arrange the ceasefire” the resolution now says “Right you are to start immediately to arrange a ceasefire” I don’t think really that leaves a lot of wriggle room.
The sad fact is that despite this resolution Russia and Syria choose to ignore it.
Turkey’s certainly ignoring it.
Whether Russia and Syria are would have to be open to question seeing as how Russia could simply have vetoed it.
Were some actors, cynically or genuinely seeking a ceasefire off the back of a very quick implementation period? Were some actors, cynically or genuinely seeking a ceasefire off the back of a slower implementation period?
Perhaps there’s cynicism all round? Whatever, I doubt if there’s all round genuine intentions.
From a humanitarian point of view bill there certainly are people who are desperate for a ceasefire the aid agencies in support of the UN OCHA have truck convoys lined up ready to go whenever they get the clearance from the Syrian authorities.
see here:
etc.
https://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefweb.int/files/resources/SyriaSCStatement022818%20%281%29.pdf
I personally don’t see anything cynical in this desire to give aid to those innocent people who are suffering in this conflict.
Bana al abed 2.0?
No Bana al-Abed is now 8, alive and well, and now living in Turkey with her mother who is working in Refugee advocacy. Recently they visited New York in support of their book release “Dear World” and to meet with “Twitter” staffers.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/06/world/middleeast/bana-alabed-aleppo-syria.html
Radical suggestion here, what The Standard could do with is a daily Foreign Affairs thread.
Then Open Mike could be renamed to ‘Open Mike So Long As You Don’t Want To Talk About Putin Or Syria Or Both”.
A.
Cheers A. I have been thinking the same thing e.g. like what we did for the US election. Tricky for a couple of reasons. Do all international comments go there? Where’s the line? That’s not an insurmountable problem, but needs thought.
It also presents some moderation issues in that initially at least it would require tight moderation. But doable I think and would probably increase the quality of rebate across the whole site.
I’d suggest a separation of pro-Russia/Assad and skeptical of Russia/Assad.
The true believers aren’t about to change their minds. Separate articles once a week should do it – without the argument neither group probably has a lot to say.
No way in hell am I considering putting up posts with content. The only thing I would consider doing is a generic post like we did with the US election.
And I can guarantee you that if we put up Notices and Features of both of those sides the arguments would continue under both posts.
and then you will need a thread for those that are neither for nor against either party but are pro end war and endless bombing.
“Do all international comments go there?”
Yes please.
climate change? US school shootings? International feminism? Australian politics? #metoo? #BLM? etc
Yep. Better serene than sorry.
I am hesitant to raise this as a possible example of how to divide up what currently goes into OM for fear of being hung, drawn and quartered … !!!
A certain blog based in Dunedin has a set of four daily posts, which actually seem to work quite well:
(EDIT. Damn – I really should attribute the quotes below to the blog – YourNZ. I read there but don’t comment but as PG is an early riser I find the topic posts he posts each morning a useful guide/shortcut to what the media topics of the morning are. LOL. Thanks PG).
Worldwatch
For posting on events, news, opinions and anything of interest from around the world.
Media Watch
Media Watch is a focus on New Zealand media, blogs and social media. You can post any items of interested related to media.
A primary aim here is to hold media to account in the political arena. A credible and questioning media is an essential part of a healthy democracy.
A general guideline – post opinion on or excerpts from and links to blog posts or comments of interest, whether they are praise, criticism, pointing out issues or sharing useful information.
Open Forum
This post is open to anyone to comment on any topic that isn’t spam, illegal or offensive. All Your NZ posts are open but this one is for you to raise topics that interest you.
If providing opinions on or summaries of other information also provide a link to that information. Bloggers are welcome to summarise and link to their posts.
Comments worth more exposure may be repeated as posts.Comments from other forums can be repeated here, cut and paste is fine.
X is a mostly political and social issues blog but not limited to that, and views from anywhere on the political spectrum are welcome. Some ground rules:
If possible support arguments, news, points or opinions with links to sources and facts.
Please don’t post anything illegal, potentially defamatory or abusive.
General Chat
“Is there any way we could have a thread for the more lightweight stuff like music and general chat?”
Do it here. Please no personal attacks or bickering. Anything abusive, provocative or inflammatory may be deleted.
That breakdown would seem to pretty much cover the various types of subjects that arise on OM. Obviously you would probably want to change the titles and if necessary /desirable Worldwatch could be further broken down. Also would suggest, examples for General Chat could include gardening (serious), and veganism (me stirring).
Why reinvent the wheel …
He doesn’t have the number of comments we get though so the moderation load is different. I’m not convinced this commentariat would be that good at understanding the different categories and where the best place to post is.
Also, 4 posts triples the amount of work for one author at a time we are thin on the ground.
I was more thinking about a temporary post, a few times a week, where those conversations can be directed.
For many & various reasons, it can be risky to speak up about anything to do with commenting & moderation here on TS but you welcomed feedback @ 4.2.2 so here goes.
I don’t think moving certain posts out of OM will lead much to an overall improvement. IMO one the issues is the style & tone of commenters and their (idiosyncratic) ways of debating; they will carry these with them wherever & whenever they go, here on TS, and elsewhere, assuming they don’t hide behind their alias and adopt a separate TS persona just here on and for TS …
Many commenters here on TS have been around for some time and in some cases this has raised antibodies with others. Antibodies don’t think; they simply react and bind to the target for destruction, the invader or the infection, by the immune system – the immune system in some cases being a larger
possegroup of commenters or the wider TS community of regular commenters. I’m very tempted to name names, by way of illustration, but I won’t because it is a general issue IMO and the people here are smart enough to realise what I’m referring to.Moderating this behaviour, because that’s what it is, is almost a mission impossible IMO. Moderating is sometimes perceived, particularly by but not limited to the ones on the receiving end, as punitive, biased, unfair, etc. Sometimes people rejoice in a ban (of others, obviously) … By and large, moderation feels, to me, like a constant picking up of litter, dousing fires, policing, acting as an ambulance at the bottom of a cliff (or the only mature adult on a pre-school playground).
On the other hand, moderation also aims to make commenters aware of the effect their comments have on others, the overall debate and the general environment & atmosphere here. The moderators try to educate and appeal to self-moderation and self-correction. This does seem to work in some cases albeit briefly; after a while people slip back into old habits – old habits die hard.
People have different styles, they have different levels of understanding, different levels of self-awareness, etc., and these differences are not always appreciated and tolerated by others as much as they perhaps could be. Yes, it can be extremely frustrating dealing with some here – my tongue is often a bleeding mess and my jaws ache – but respect and patience for others seems thin on the ground and perhaps we could all adopt a little more of the motto “live and let live”?
What I see/hear much here on TS is this analogy: people don’t like the music because of the composer and/or the performer; they don’t like the performer because of the instrument or the music; they don’t like the instrument because of music; they dislike the instrument because of music, and a many more variations on a theme; you get the drift. There’s much criticism (or cheering on) but more often than not it ignores, avoids, or is simply blind to the larger picture and the fact that everything is connected.
Disclaimer of Hypocrisy: I am as ‘bad’ as anyone here of the negative habits & traits mentioned above – I don’t always (!) publically show it as much …
Thanks Incog. I wasn’t actually asking for feedback about moderation (rather the idea of a dedicated post for Russia/US, or Syria discussion like we did for the US election), but I’m fine with people talking about moderation like you just have. There’s no risk in that unless the person does something like attack an author, or wade into a shit fight and criticise moderation while it is active. I know this from before I was an author and I used to talk about moderation a lot, including when Lynn was moderating. My bottom line is respect that the person doing the moderation has the right even where I disagree with them. I can think of one time I overstepped the mark, and I’m guessing my generally respectful approach gave me some leeway from getting a smack down.
I like the anti-bodies analogy.
I don’t think the moderation is a mission impossible, because we don’t actually moderate the behaviour you are talking about. Sometimes people get banned because they fail to take notice of a moderation note or they argue back against it disrespectfully. Other times people get a ban because it’s just the best thing to do to both change the dynamic (e.g. a flame war) and limit the drain on moderator time (this is what happened yesterday). I expect that to happen more, because we have two regular authors now saying that what happens in the comments is putting them off writing. That is not good.
“Moderating is sometimes perceived, particularly by but not limited to the ones on the receiving end, as punitive, biased, unfair, etc.”
I really wish that people would understand that that is actually the point of moderation. I don’t call it punitive, but Lynn calls it educational. If people won’t self regulate their behaviour then the moderation process gives them a chance to change or they are out. As I said yesterday, fairness isn’t in the top three priorities for me.
I basically don’t care if people are fucked off with an author, and I don’t care if that anger is justified or not. If they can’t be respectful then I will choose protecting the author. If we don’t have authors there is not site. Commenters are expendable. Yes I am being very blunt here. I do try and protect commenters who I see being a net contribution to the site, e.g. by giving shorter bans, or by intervening before another authors comes along. But ultimately if they cross over a line, they’re just not worth the time and energy.
Fortunately the readership stats are still good for the site, so hopefully this is just a cyclical thing with the commentariat. I do feel like we could do with some new blood, but I think that is dependent upon us having good posts going up and thus we are back at what is good for the authors and the site.
“but respect and patience for others seems thin on the ground and perhaps we could all adopt a little more of the motto “live and let live”?”
THIS.
Thanks.
Please let me know whether you would like to draw a line under this here & (for) now or continue receiving feedback. Your call.
I have no problem with people talking respectfully about the community including moderation 🙂 (what I’ve been objecting to is attacks on authors, criticising active moderations etc).
Feel bad for Ed. Hope this cheers you up a little Ed.
Nice 😍
What happened did Ed cop a ban or something?
Yesterday’s OM (or the day before, it’s all a blur at the moment).
What a cute wee pet these micro pigs make.
I know, the trouble is that they don’t stay that size though!
They’re also a reminder of the perils of eating meat.
Oh so not kind?
Bill
That article was like some kind of crude hasbara.
Orient.net is solely owned by an expat seriously rich Syrian businessman ,Ghassan Aboud, who has dabbled a lot in PR and export of vehicles…Toyota Hilux pickups amongst them!
Great in the desert.
Aboud’s choice of vehicle…Orient.net is purely focused on Syria and makes no bones about its bias
The reason I ask Jenny, if she’s serious, to submit an article dedicated to Syria, is so that only those truly interested could participate. It might also cut out the flippant one line artists with very little to contribute
I’m basically aware of what orient.net is and where it comes from.
Regardless, I thought I’d invest the few minutes to come up with some reasoned argument in response to Jenny.
One reason for that is that I hate “cut and paste wars” between people who seem incapable of forming their own opinions, and to who nuance is a filthy foreign concept.
Also late yesterday, I came across the shat all over mess that was passing for “Open Mike” and Weka’s valiant but belated mop and bucket efforts. Actual argument containing relevant points (whether agreed with or not) can help stop the likes of yesterday’s sad ad hom nonsense in its tracks.
Jenny submitting a post on Syria would be a welcome departure from her cut paste and dump trolling across every post on Syria from a year back that got her a year long ban.
I notice there’s only been one “below the belt” or potentially inflammatory comment/remark today. I guess some heads have been pulled in?
Hope so
Thanks for all your well written and argued comments
Plus 1
I will try and put some time aside to do up a post on Syria for The Standard to post.
Cheers J.
P.S. Work full time during the week. And next weekend is fully booked with activities.
I should find some time in the evenings.
As the saying goes if you want something done, give it to a busy person.
Whaleoil has gone really septic against National and is airing their dirty laundry. Some snippets provided if you can’t stand visiting the toxic wasteland…
https://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2018/03/reader-emails-respond/#pq=r1rcaQ
Got my popcorn ready, will watch with interest.
Karma
“Bill English always gets people to do his dirty work for him.”
As always I can never tell is that is a stunning lack of self-awareness, or if he simply doesn’t care because hypocrisy is just another tool in the Dirty Politics tool box.
“For years I have stayed silent about what went on behind the scenes after Dirty Politics. As I remain and those traitorous cowards in National resign I will start telling the truth when they can no longer hide behind parliamentary privilege. There are many stories to tell and many MPs who will shudder in shame at their behaviour.”
I have no problem if they eat themselves. It could just be hot air though. Or the threat may be enough to garner him more power on the condition he shuts up.
Slater has spat the dummy because nobody wants to be around the horrible little man any more
Thats wonderful,comic!
Wonder if he’s still doing his PR work for Israel
There’s a great NZ sitcom in the making there
Dirty Politics it could be called
Someone should do it
Slater’s also printed bits of Hooten’s anti-Joyce rant from behind the NBR paywall … lol Joyce is toast
“Thats wonderful,comic!”
Isn’t it though.
‘I’ve got secrets and I’m going to tell all. I will!! I will! I promise I will’
He (that is Slater), and Bradbury for that matter, remind me of Kim DotCom.
Remember how he claimed to have all sorts of information about John Key?
What did he come up with? Nothing.
still in denial i see.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10502898/Moment-of-truth-do-believe-the-hype
The i word…
Did anyone else think Simon Bridges was incoherent on TV Politics interview at 9.30 today?
Laugh
https://twitter.com/ladbible/status/969268478690643968
LOL Thanks Brigid. Needed that!!
Here’s a man that knows that minority and minority indigenous cultures are suppressed by the neoliberals western systems he knows that indigenous culture are kind caring cultures he is doing his bit to fix the wrong that have happened in Canada past Ka pai Ka kite ano heres the link
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/02/canada-first-nations-man-offers-land-rent-free-facebook Kia kaha
Crowd funded blood money. What a world they’ve made for themselves.
“Many would have assumed that seven years would be long enough to fix every quake-damaged house but that proved optimistic. There are still 2600 cases to go, nearly half of which are re-repairs, and there is a very good chance that further re-repairs will emerge.”
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/101925620/editorial-an-eqc-culture-change-is-long-overdue
A timely warning to the rest of the country…..the comments are enlightening
EQC Christchurch – a bad earthquake, what else could go wrong when we had our own fund to handle this type of disaster?
This from Pat’s link.
Former EQC Minister Gerry Brownlee declined to appear on the same programme to talk about how EQC performed under his watch. He did however comment to Stuff that EQC had delivered “exceptional results” and Wevers was “pivotal to the EQC’s remarkable response”.
I’ll scratch yours, if you scratch mine stuff eh.
But Dame Annette King has managed to get a very nice photo in a striking dress.
Good photos are a matter of luck I think.
If Dame Anne can sort this bloody mess out she will deserve a whole wardrobe of ‘striking dresses’
and maybe even matching shoes