Morning all. Juan Guaido here. That's G U A I D O, in case you're not familiar with the spelling. It's now or never. Operation "Enduring Hydrocarbons" enters a new phase today. Our removal of the illegitimate dictatorship starts at 11.30am outside Devonport Naval Base. Get along there Aucklanders! Bring a packed lunch and a rain jacket. Cash donations also welcome.
And how can we tell if someone is Maori enough anyway? Genetic analysis? Ought there to be a public record of their exact percentage for funding purposes, perhaps part of the census? Interesting road opening up here, but ought we to head down it?
"Jackson's Labour Māori caucus colleague Peeni Henare went further, actually questioning whether Bennett is Māori enough." Big call, claiming the second question is further than the first, but that's journalists for you. Just questions so far. No actual judgments.
"I haven't seen her contribution to the community for Māori kaupapa, I haven't seen her on the marae, I haven't seen her dry dishes, I haven't seen her do a karanga – therefore, it should be raising the question," he said.
Henare manages to tick at least two boxes with this. Bennett (who is a sad apology for a human being) is condemned as being not Maori enough by a Maori male because she doesn't behave the way he thinks a Maori woman should?
Sigh.
Criticise the woman for her many, many appalling words and actions as a politician, but damning her because she fails to fit his view of an acceptable Maori woman is a sacking offense.
Stupid men. Poor Ardern having to sort this one out.
Turns out there was context that the Newshub report didn't mention: "How does he [Jackson] determine whether the Māori in the Mana in Mahi programme are Māori enough to be counted?" she asked after Jackson said of the 143 clients have been placed in the programme 75 participants – some 52 per cent – identify as Māori."
Henare's position is also expanded here: ""blood quantum simply isn't enough" when it comes to being Māori. "I've always felt that you have to reach a threshold of need, participation and contribution in Māori Kaupapa. If you don't, of course, questions are going to be raised." He said he was "more than happy" for those questions to be raised of anybody who claims to be Māori who does not meet that threshold."
Science would measure the blood quantum via genetics, but he's making it clear that there's a cultural determinant that applies equally. Where does that leave urban Maori who have evolved several generations since the colonial era, many of whom apparently become disconnected from their tribal roots? Required to re-enculture themselves to qualify?
You really believe blood is a cultural construct?? Most people believe it is a physical thing. Science usually proves stuff by examining physical evidence. Seems like Henare is acknowledging that via his reference: "blood quantum". He then includes culture as part of identity.
His application of both/and logic seems appropriate to me, yet your comment excludes the biological part of Maori identity. That seems wrong. Why do you disagree with Henare?
No, blood is a red liquid that transports oxygen and nutrients through the body.
Social Science studies the shared ideas of social groups and how people identify as part of a group.
Maori get to define what "Maori" is not some racist Pakeha prick like you using racist Pakeha ideas about 'race'. To be Maori a person must have at least one Maori ancestor, as i said, and identify as being Maori. That is the way it has always been.
Henare does not specify any particular amount of 'blood quantum' and i assume this is just a clumsy way of saying some genetic heritage. Henare would be out on a limb with his other comments about level of involvement, i would think. Jackson said as much.
Again i am not sure if you are being stupid or just the shit stirring prick that you obviously are.
Fascinating. Does that mean that Bennett is entitled to decide that neither Jackson nor Henare is a Maori? Would that mean that Peeni Henare would be disqualified from being an MP from a Maori electorate seat and that there will be a by-election?
Or can only a Labour MP make such decisions and what you really mean is that some animals are more equal than others, as Orwell would put it?
Even I know that.You surely don't imagine that you are a unique source of knowledge about such things do you? So what? It doesn't change the question. Who get to make the call? You surely aren't going to tell me that it must be unanimous are you?
Well that is certainly a masterpiece of Delphic ambiguity. Given the names Jackson, Peters, and Bennett it is pretty clear that they had ancestors who indulged in the activity. The jury is still out on whether Henare qualifies.
Willie doesn't believe in being PC. Sometimes I don't like his approach, but this morning on Radionz he made his point for not being a slang-free society. A bit of to-and-fro is more honest than rigid people complying with the conventions as well as the laws, and being completely shuttered and negative in their minds as to the humanity of the situation.
Being PC in everything is just so PC marty mars. Good to keep on going round in circles, keeps you in touch with yourself, otherwise one can get lost in the harakeke.
You lost me but it's all okay – I am a full on card carrying believer in political correctness as it is known by its enemies and kindness as it is known by its friends.
I can say with surety that the word 'race', in all its lurid connotations, is one of my least favorite words – I might even be so bold as to put it at the top of my disliked words or perhaps the bottom depending upon my fickle mood.
Obviously being Maori, as with any ethnicity, involves more than just having a genetic component. My grandfather was Scottish but there is nothing in the way that i live my life or understand the world around me that is particularly Scottish. I could not claim to belong to this ethnic group.
It is always hard to know if you are as ignorant as you pretend to be.
Being in the kitchen helping with the tremendous hospitality that Maori turn out for their cultural purposes is one of the Maori women's cultural activities, and the men set everything up, dig the hangi and set it up etc.
It's just division of duties for the successful outcome to a function and not to be judged by pakeha women as not coinciding with their efforts to gain mana and standing for women who have had to fight their way up from a lower status than Maori women had.
I was just tacking myself on to the end with a general comment. It sometimes interferes with the flow of the comments and replies to come in late and add something a bit different solkta.
And agree Sacha. I was stating what I have learned from having been on marae helping and been told and observed what I referred to in my earlier comment.
I have been on many marae events and my grandson is of Ngati-porau, of nga whanau me nga hapu o Ngati Porou, so I enjoy Maori serving of food with aroha and hospitality it is very warm.
I speak very little Maori sadly, but my heart is there but the life is to short.
solkta "My grandfather was Scottish but there is nothing in the way that i live my life or understand the world around me that is particularly Scottish. I could not claim to belong to this ethnic group."
Can I suggest that you have it quite back-to-front.
It isn't that scots have moved away from scottishness, it is that scottishness has moved forward to new places and cultural activities, thus re-defining that ethnicity.
This idea that ethnicity has strict rules around what you have to do to belong grates like fingernails down a chalkboard. It makes no sense and I reject it. Humanity and its ethnicities have long been in a state of flux and change – immigrating, colonising, going to McDonalds, it never stops moving.
Similarly with maori – it shouldn't be that you have to conduct yourself in certain ways to be that ethnicity, it should be that whatever activities you conduct in your life as a maori become a part of that ethnicity. This is, after all, how that ethnicity and its current cultural activities came into being in the first place…
it should be that whatever activities you conduct in your life as a maori become a part of that ethnicity.
No it should be whatever Maori do as a group. Otherwise you are just talking about 'race'.
I do get your point that culture is not static, but it has to be morphing from one set of parameters to another. Maori culture is obviously different from what it was pre European contact, but it is still distinct from that of other groups.
But it is being done as part of that group – that was my point and why I said “whatever activities you conduct in your life as a maori”. Whatever one does with one's life is as part of that group. I don't see how one person's life can be separated out from the group like you suggest.
The principle I outline above is the exact same principle used by maori for various claims made under te tiriti for matters which maori previously had no knowledge of, let alone activity in. For example, radio waves.
Willie Jackson is being empty-headed with his claims and he should turn his mind to this principle, which he has supported countless times himself in the past. What a nincompoop
My understanding of the the claims for the Treaty are that the tikanga is not set in stone; the Treaty is a living thing, changing with times, developments, experiences and perceptions. So the Treaty that was perceived at the time that it was signed, is still the Treaty at a different time but with some different perceptions about it. The main one being that there was an agreement made to preserve and maintain elements of life.
As for being a Maori, my understanding is that it is variable. There may be blood relationships, or it may be acceptance relationships through marriage or even if someone has been accepted as one of the group and become a sister or brother by agreement. This then requires that person to fulfill family duties and responsibilities to that group, hapu or marae, if they want to be fully included. It seems to me that it is a matter of heart, and acceptance, and mutual commitment.
But all Maori aren't equal; different groups have their own ways and perceptions. One tribe may not accept someone from another. And one of my relatives is both Maori and pakeha, pale skinned, from a South Island tribe. Some of them are not fully accepting because of the pale skin. When in Northland around 1950, that tribe's similar attitudes were isolating which led to loneliness.
I am a bit confused I am part Irish/Scottish/Greek/English on my mothers' side of the family, however a family DNA test has come back as mainly Iberian ie Spanish/Portugese and on my fathers side I am mainly Scottish & Maori so what does that make me ?
Going off to a tangent my wife has done my family tree. There is a bit of Scottish, Irish and German in me. I had to have a Cataract operation a few years ago and the surgeon said he was going to fit a Zeiss lens in my eye. I can now say honestly that there is a bit of German in me
As an example of how threads can be disrupted and hard to follow when the reply doesn't state the original commenter, you at 8.51 am saying about being ignorant comes below mine at 10.15 am so you were not referring to me.
It seems it was referring to either Dennis F or Rosemary M further up at 3.1…
The non apology – it's attitudes like jackson expresses, those distorted views, that directly contribute to the appalling statistics young Māori are over represented in – disgraceful.
Look, if you want to criticise a Labour MP then do so directly, like Marty. Being so oblique just makes you seem dishonest. And since when have you ever tried to add anything useful to this site?? All you seem capable of is random misunderstandings of the discourse.
You have taken Henare's stupidity and run with it. Above you have said things like:
"your comment excludes the biological part of Maori identity. That seems wrong."
and
"Ought there to be a public record of their exact percentage for funding purposes, perhaps part of the census?"
which is inexcusably ignorant in this day and age. Life is too short to put up with fools polluting the public pool. Such nonsense would be warmly welcomed at Kiwibog.
So explain why you disagree with the Labour minister's reference to the biological part of Maori identity, and why you disagree with applying a metric to that. And why you lack a sense of humour. 🙄
You are so sure of yourself. You might remember the quote about who are fools and who are wise. When you start talking about Maori proving that biologically you are going back over arguments made decades ago, even a century.
If you know so little about Maori matters better you stay out of giving your opinions – you haven't got up to first base and need to go away, read up and learn. Everybody needs to do some homework for themselves so they can discuss from the point of view of some appropriate authority.
So does that mean you didn't notice that the Labour minister referred to "blood quantum"?? Or do you think blood is not biological??
Did you also not notice that I mostly asked questions? Which of my opinions are you actually referring to? Did you notice that respondents failed to address what he actually said? Do you think such evasion of political comments is what this website ought to feature, and if so, why?
If you get my drift, it ain't about me at all, no matter how hard some respondents are trying to spin it. It's about the news!
It is a good thing for a pakeha to sit back and let Maori sort matters out between themselves. Feelings and tikanga, expectations and resentments may have to be worked through and require a truce between them to their mutual resignation.
That is for them to work out. You can't cut perceptions into thin slices and put them under a microscope. Until you are required to make a decision because you are in a position requiring decisions or legality, then it would be discerning of you to remain politely in the background.
If as a pakeha, you have seen the strong feelings that can arise after the death of a parent between the various siblings, you might have an idea of the emotional aspect to be worked out in relationships.
Sacha @ 3.4 & 3.4.1.1 and she seems to be coming from a pc position, which I'm allergic to. I get where you're coming from. Unfortunately, to me it looks and smells like censorship.
So my stance is that I have as much right to comment on cultural & political matters in Aotearoa as anyone else. To the extent that Maori stuff affect us, I comment on that. If it doesn't affect the pakeha world, I don't. This item does.
The reason is that a new bit of political culture was invented by the three Maori MPs involved. You will see that I introduced the topic with a question that goes straight to the heart of it. The significant point is that nobody has answered the question!! I've seen that pattern since I was a child in the 1950s. Adults would freak out when I asked a simple question or made a simple comment. They would literally freeze, with a look of fear in their eyes. Somehow, I was born with an uncanny knack of uttering the unspeakable.
Nowadays they call it speaking truth to power. When the power lies in social convention, speaking truth shatters it, enabling progress. Those in denial of Maori racism voiced against Maori will studiously continue to evade what has actually happened. It's part of the traditional leftist preference for delusion over reality.
Leftists thinking centrists are rightists is way funnier. No wonder they struggle to figure out which way is up. Reality is so hard for such dimwits to grasp, as you keep on demonstrating…
You don't seem to even know what you think you are let alone what you actually are. Yesterday you were claiming to be Green, but while the Green Party dose not generally identify as being Left it very certainly does not identify as being Centrist.
I've told the history of that here several times over the past few years. The Values Party schism in the mid-seventies was caused by the leftists and centrists being unable to do consensus.
I was too radical that decade to join either group. I persuaded the Greens to go left in '91 when Jeanette Fitzsimons led a session on the question at our conference. My reasoning was that the Bolger govt had already captured several leading environmentalists, so we had to form a viable alternative. Nobody wanted Labour (due to Rogernomics).
There's always been many in the Green Party who prefer non-alignment, but the conference decision was pre-MMP and we had a binary choice only. Russel Norman's straw poll at the 2015 conference (65 in the session) showed the leftists were half the number who put their hands up for the traditional Green position (neither left nor right). I saw that happen.
The problem with people like you & Sacha is the perennial one of always operating from the position of ignorance, while pretending to know stuff. Sad the way the leftist belief system makes many adherents delusional.
He likes to pretend that he has some significant history with the Greens but from what he has said on here it seems that had some involvement in the very early years but then left as he was not a good fit at all. The crap that he has talked today about 'race' would have gone down like a lead balloon both then and now, as would most of his ramblings.
yet they are centrist…as are their voter base…a more middle class party would be hard to find…their one saving grace is in danger of disappearing altogether.
The Greens cannot be Centrist as their policies are more Left than Labour's. Winston is Centrist and he is currently fucking up most Green policy objectives.
Centrist does not mean "middle class" and Left does not mean exclusively working class. Karl Marx was very middle class for fucks sake.
The Greens come to the same place as the Left on social policy, they just get their by a different route.
"The Greens cannot be Centrist as their policies are more Left than Labour's."
Are they?..and even if they are Labour are hardly 'left' as they subscribe to neoliberalism…as stated the Greens are , and are supported by the middle class as their voter demographic displays…but you keep telling yourself otherwise, it may come true one day
To explain it another way, when Greens say they are not Left or Right they mean that they don't really fit on that spectrum. Centrism fits on that spectrum, right in the middle of it.
The Greens have had a policy for Capital Gains Tax longer than Labour and still do. The Greens are responsible through their agreement for the welfare changes announced today. I can't be fucked giving you more examples but there are many. You can go to the relevant websites and compare.
Yes Labour are not as left as they once were, the Greens are further left, if measured on that spectrum, like i said. Left and Right are only relevant to the context so in NZ Parliamentary Politics today Labour are still left of centre.
And also like i said Centrist does not mean middle class. Have you not heard of Karl Marx? There are huge numbers of lefty middle class people. There is also a significant number of working class people who vote National.
I have ignored much of the Greens nonsense and voted for them the past 3 elections for one reason only, climate change…if they fuck this opportunity up they will never see my vote again….the question you have to ask yourself is how typical am i?
It will be Winston who fucks the Climate Act if anybody. The Greens could bring the gummint down over it, but that would lead to a hugely messy election and probably a Nact led gummint.
No you are not typical of a Green voter. There is about 6% of the vote that is core Green. After that they mostly take votes from Labour. When labour could not find an effective leader people walked to the Greens, and then back again when they finally did.
lf i have voted Green the previous 3 elections im part of that core vote…you cannot know how typical my attitude is…and nor can the party…time will tell.
When i say 6% are "core Green voters" i mean voters who support the Green Kaupapa. By saying I have ignored much of the Greens nonsense and voted for them the past 3 elections for one reason only, climate change you are making it very clear that you are not a core Green voter.
I have voted for them in every election where they have been an option as i have always supported most of their policies.
oh dear you are truly delusional…the Greens received approx 6.3% of the vote last election , or 162000 party votes….whats membership?..id suggest significantly less. probably around 10% of that figure….thats your Green Kuapapa, not the votes.
Had you considered that you might be part of the 0.3%.
The Greens peaked at i think 12.6% in the polls and that was directly after Metiria's speech. They picked up some lefty vote on the back of that. Then Metiria lost control of the narrative and Ardern became Labour leader and went hard on Climate Change, Fresh Water and Child Poverty. 4-5% (percentage points) went back to Labour and 1-2% of swing voters got the frights. The Greens dropped back to mostly their core vote.
If you think you can sort Climate Change without caring about people then best you buy a gun. You will need it. France has started down that road.
In my opinion Paula Bennet is Maori when it suits her, and not when it doesn't.
That is, she plays on her heritage when there is a political advantage to be made from it. But mostly ignores it.
Paula Bennet raises the objection that being Maori is not defined by being able to speak Maori.
And she is right.
And I know that for many with all the will in the world, it can prove to hard to pick up the reo, especially if you have been raised exclusively in the Pakeha tradition.
Bennet has a point there.
But for anyone who ever wanted to get in touch with their Maori Heritage, surely Paula Bennet has had more than enough opportunity to learn Te Reo, that is, if she wanted to.
I mean, despite being in a relatively well paid job, (opposition MP), with relatively little to do and able to set her own agenda. And presumably, with the pick of professional support, able and willing to walk her through it. (If she chose to avail herself of it) has she ever tried to learn the language?
Has she ever taken the time, has she even ever made the effort?
I think if she did, it would be the making of her.
"Deputy Prime Minister Winston Peters has been called upon to lead the war against killer robots." What, harangue them to death??
"Mary Wareham, advocacy director of the Arms Division of Human Rights Watch, is leading the global campaign to ban fully autonomous weapons… Wareham said New Zealand is the only country in the world to have a Minister for Disarmament and Arms Control, referring to Peters. Asked if the world needs Peters to lead the war on killer robots, Wareham responded: "Certainly. I think he would be an excellent leader.""
Well, okay, Aotearoa leading the way is excellent, but Winston probably ought to delegate the task to Arnie – who knows the scene inside-out. He said he'd be back, eh? Now's the time!
Wtf? Haven't they seen those Terminator movies? A war against killer robots is a terrible idea! Humans are squishy and easily disabled, no match for robots at all. Wouldn't it make more sense to just not build the killer robots in the first place?
"The Justice Select Committee is currently considering a bill to establish the Criminal Cases Review Commission (CCRC), which would review convictions and sentences and decide whether to refer them to the appeal court. Currently, if someone believes they have suffered a miscarriage of justice they can apply to the Governor-General, who seeks advice from the Minister of Justice, for exercise of the Royal prerogative of mercy that can be used to grant a free pardon or to refer a conviction or sentence back to an appeal court."
"Nigel Hampton QC, forensic science consultant Dr Anna Sandiford and investigator Glynn Rigby, submitted for the New Zealand Public Interest Project. They endorsed the idea of a Commission, but urged caution with appointing judges and suggested adding a provision to allow an appeal after death. In their experience miscarriages of justice usually revolved around poor or inadequate investigation, forensic science, legal defence and sometimes overzealous prosecutors."
I'm pleased to see this group lobbying for a body more representative of the public. The legal establishment has often victimised people in the past. I first suggested a public accountability mechanism in 1991 when I wrote the second draft of the Greens justice policy, as convenor of their justice policy working group. Andrew Little's proposal is a weaker alternative, but it will improve the current system. Keeping the judges out of the review group would serve the public interest, but allowing one or two to participate as advisors could also work well.
A USA Judge who did much to limit miscarriages of justice and undertook legislation that advanced the rights of the poor, black community, has just died. I hadn't heard of this great man so I am passing on his obituary so those who care for what he did can honour Judge Damon Keith's achievements and we can seek to emulate them.
Gluten, soy and GMO, and most importantly meat free burgers are on sale from 7 May at BF 🙂 I can't wait to try it out. Don't think I'll be able to totally eliminate meat (on a keto diet) but every bit counts.
There's no need for meat-free burgers in NZ. Much of our livestock is grass-fed on land that wouldn't be suitable for growing crops anyway. Or should be…
Is plant burger firm Beyond Meat really worth $1.5bn? The US firm, which counts actor and environmentalist Leonardo DiCaprio among its investors, will now offer its shares at between $23 and $25.
The decision to increase the price from the original range of $19 and $21 indicates strong demand for the shares.
But Beyond Meat is loss-making and does not know when it will report a profit.For its most recent financial results for 2018, Beyond Meat said losses hit $29.9m, slightly below the previous year but above a $25.1m loss in 2016…
Beyond Meat is one of a number of so-called "unicorn" companies – which are privately-backed firms worth $1bn or more – to sell their shares to public investors this year.
While we discuss politics and racism there is 'humanism' to argue for – us against technology and its weaponisation and the increasing trend of technology to destroy our lives, gradually or suddenly.
Dennis F at 4 also refers to this.
And also the denial of rights and robbing of land and livelihood from people inconveniently positioned on land with uses for other people. 19th century the Highland Clearances in Scotland – large scale sheep farming over-turning the people’s smallholding-croft system.
I just watche a vid saying that all methane once its broken down into co2 created from cattle is used to regrow the pasture the cattle grew on . A continuous cyclel that adds nothing new to the atmosphere as long as cattlenumbers dont rise. .
I can't find the piece I read the other day, which would have been mainstream and not dubious, but I had a google, too.
I found a few things that were roughly stating the same thing, though some looked dodgy, the like 12 posts to back their questionable science, so I won't advocate for them here.
I'm happy to be corrected by proper scientists and science, so if their consensus is termites aren't heavier methane producers than cows, so be it.
A few sites put the emissions of termites way above the 20 million tonnes figure, but note the mounds and underground networks act as filters.
Either way, I'll still eat meat, but not bug meat.
Yeah, nah, I'd rather eat that fake crap in the supermarket which costs twice as much as cow mince but with only half the flavour… Or look at rabbit, dog and cat as a cheaper, tasty alternative.
The pigs are still gonna be in trouble though. I'm only gonna give up bacon when they pry it out of my cold dead jaws.
Cats- nah. Turning sunshine into protein in plants is horribly inefficient. Taking another step and running that plant material through an animal to make meat protein just compounds the inefficiency. Taking yet another step and running animal protein through an obligate carnivore to produce slightly different animal protein compounds the inefficiency yet again.
Yeah, I can't quite get up any enthusiasm for eating invertebrates either.
While I eat very little meat, I really can't be arsed with the effort and planning needed to get the full complement of nutrients needed from a fully vege diet. But I'll be quite happy to eat vat-grown animal cells processed into burgers and sausages and mince.
Thinking about it (close to dinner time, after all), I've squished many a land bug, and none of them looked like raw prawns on the inside. Unless the goey innards turn solid when cooked, like an egg does?
Im happy to take a steak or burger for the team to get rid of all those cows, but veggies and veganauts, you animal lovers, if you plan to get rid of all the cows, are you happy to pull the trigger? And if you're not hypocritical about it, ignoring the obvious cognitive dissonance, why can't I eat what you slaughter?
Currently the methane concentration in the atmosphere is around 1900 ppb. Prior to the early 1800s it was very steady at around 700 ppb. The extra methane is responsible for somewhere around 1/4 to 1/3 the global temperature rise since the 1800s, and it's all due to human activities of various kinds, including vastly increasing the global numbers of ruminant livestock.
Yes, it's true that methane oxidises to CO2 and water in the atmosphere, with a half life of around 8 to 12 years. (Half life means every molecule emitted has a 50/50 chance of surviving one half life,and a 1:4 chance of surviving two half lives, 1:8 chance of surviving 3 etc). But while that molecule of CO2 exists in the atmosphere, it is over 100 times more effective at trapping heat then the CO2 molecule it will oxidise into.
The relatively rapid decay of methane means there's a fairly good "bucket with a hole in it" analogy for thinking about methane concentration. Imagine a bucket with a hole in it, and a tap filling it with water. The water flowing in represents the methane we're dumping into the atmosphere, the height of the water in the bucket represents methane concentration in the atmosphere, and the water flowing out represents methane getting oxidised to CO2 and water in the atmosphere. The flow of water out of the hole is a bit responsive to the water level, it flows a bit faster with a high water level, a bit slower with a low water level.
Things were fairly well in balance up to around the 1800s at a fairly low tap flow, and a fairly low level in the bucket, and a low outflow. But when we turned the tap up by finding and burning fossil fuels and increasing agriculture all across the world, the water level rose dramatically. A big part of that turning the tap up was hugely increasing numbers of ruminant livestock. Now, if we choose to turn down the tap a bit, by decreasing ruminant numbers and/or finding ways to reduce methane emissions from ruminants, then the level of water in the bucket/methane in the atmosphere goes down, and the extra global heating reduces.
Yep and stop using vehicles with internal combustion engines and oil derivatives to make tyres, so rail with steel wheels and electric locomotives is our future.
What is it with you that every topic needs to somehow get turned to trains? Was your childhood spent desperately wanting a train set to play with and you never got one for Christmas?
No Cleangreen wanting trains is because of a large part of adulthood petitioning the government to grow some brains, and do the transport thing in a way that is sustainable and provides amenities that Vogel realised in early colonial times..
If you took any real interest in what people on this blog are really on about apart from just a way to keep you from ennui you would know this. I think you come from the USA and no doubt things are different there.
You don't get anything done in NZ unless you are prepared to keep on about it for a couple of decades. If you ever want anything done that is good for the country Andre, don't ever think that you will get it for Christmas because Santa will see how good and right you are. Down here in the Southern Hemisphere you have to make sure that you keep asking because your notes to Santa often get mislaid.
Wags asked about methane cycling in and out of the atmosphere and cows as a part of that cycle. Termites and methane is clearly a closely related topic. So WTF is the story with hijacking the thread to go completely off-topic to trains? It makes trying to follow the original topic and related topics very disjointed.
Especially when it's so easy to just start a new separate thread about trains. Nobody is going to object to that. But thread hijacking is a really good way to get people's backs up.
You said Andre: Now, if we choose to turn down the tap a bit, by decreasing ruminant numbers and/or finding ways to reduce methane emissions from ruminants, then the level of water in the bucket/methane in the atmosphere goes down, and the extra global heating reduces.
That caught Cleangreens attention because he always reads your good comments, and then he thought of other ways to help the CC count of whatever go down plus the extra global heating reducing, and then he put in the bit about how using trains would be beneficial for that. So all quite easy to follow when you see the activist mind at work.
Trains to Gisborne and the usefulness they will have towards saving fuel and carbon credits and so on are top of the bill for Cleangreen and rightly so being more important than lots of things we discuss.
And because we have to say everything to NZ politicians and planners a thousand times before they ever hear of the idea, Cleangreen is just bringing the count up.
"Another visit from the thread purity police, lol." – yes, it's a thing.
Events seem to conspire to derail my life – why should a blog thread (on Open Mike) be any different?
Someone else will have commented (over the years), but why is it "Open Mike" (< 2 million Google matches) rather than "Open Mic" (> 17 million Google matches)? English/US difference?
[Agree that ‘thread derailing’ is poor etiquette, so apologies for derailing the derail, just for a bit of fun.]
Had just finished work and had a cantankerous manager have a crack.
I picked up a touch of snark in yr comment and that was what I was responding to.
To draw a long bow, those cows are generally about 'coz A, the are dairy and their milk leaves by truck or B, they are beef cattle and their protein leaves by truck.
You can't have your methaney livestock in isolation.
Remember, the (primary) problem is heat absorption. Because methane is 20 times more greenhousey than CO2 that part of the cycle increases global warming.
But also, some fertiliser comes from fossil sources, so reintroduces more carbon compounds into the atmosphere in addition to the cycle.
And lastly, there's the "what was the land used for previously" question: burning the rain forest to make a cattle farm releases most of the carbon that was sunk into tree mass.
So the idea of "continuous cycle" is true to a point, but contributions to GW are often not as simple as that concept would suggest.
It's a factoid that's been taken out of its relevant context and used to hokey up some special pleading for some that don't want to take responsibility and make changes.
As a standalone assertion, that methane rapidly oxidises to CO2, and that plants take CO2 out of the atmosphere to be eaten by cows that then belch methane back into the atmosphere in a continuous cycle, is correct. And it is also correct that if numbers of cows do not change (and other methane emissions do not change) then methane levels in the atmosphere won't change.
But the context needed to understand the significance of that cycle is very important. First, methane levels now are nearly triple what they were throughout all previous human history, and the methane levels we have now are incompatible with maintaining a livable climate.
The massive increase in ruminant livestock numbers we now have over what was present through all previous human history is a significant contributor to the extremely high methane levels we now have. Reducing ruminant livestock numbers is one of the easiest steps we could take to reduce methane levels.
A quick Google revealed a recent (2019) paper (in a well-respected scientific journal) that suggests scientists still don't know enough to accurately predict trends in atmospheric methane concentrations.
Interpreting contemporary trends in atmospheric methane
Alexander J. Turner, Christian Frankenberg, and Eric A. Kort
PNAS (Feb 2019) 116 (8) 2805-2813.
"We show that net-zero cost emission reductions can lead to a declining atmospheric burden, but can take three decades to stabilize."
I put up a video about cows, methane and surprise, got accused of being a denialist
I realize this is a touchy subject, but people probably misunderstood where I was coming from, I’m not a scientist or have vast in-depth knowledge of climate change.
I posted a video which I thought was interesting as it was saying something completely different from what I’ve seen in the media and thought I’d put it up here and get feedback.
Asking questions doesn’t make one a denialist.
Now about methane
Methane concentrations have increased from around 775 parts per billion in pre-industrial times to around 1800 now, due entirely to human activities
In the video methane and ruminants(cows) was shown to be a natural cycle where methane was endlessly recycled and nothing changed and everything was kept in balance, obviously if more cattle are added then the amount of methane would increase.
So I went and had a look to see if cow/beef numbers have increased massively in the past 50 years and surprisingly they’ve been rather static.
That also got me thinking pre-industrial there must have been a shit tonne of natural ruminants like Bison, Deer etc. and before them big animals like mammoths which would have been belching out methane by the tonne as well as many wetlands which have been destroyed due to farming
The question the author was trying to answer was why methane levels didn’t start to rise until the industrial age.
According to the author One reason methane levels remained flat was that cattle and other ruminants (wild and domesticated) lived in intact grassland ecosystems and helped build healthy soils that contain soil microbes called methanotrophs that reduce atmospheric methane (2). Thus maintained grassland ecosystems function as methane sinks, and bank as much as 15% of the earth’s methane (3) Tillage for crops reduces the soil’s capacity to bank methane (as does exposed uncovered soil) plus also releases carbon into the atmosphere (4). Use of synthetic fertilizers also adversely impacts soil methanotrophs (5). Glyphosate in no tilled systems according to industry funded research doesn’t impact soil microbial activity. Though research by other researchers contradicts this industry perspective and details how herbicides like glyphosate adversely change the makeup of soil microbes (6).
If that is the case because all our dairy and beef is grass fed we do not actually have that much of an impact on global methane levels? should we even be paying carbon taxes?
Or if we do shouldn’t it be more vegetable growers and not so much farmers?
The author points the finger more at natural gas and writes.
Meanwhile the methane from fracking and natural gas extraction, transportation and refining, in general, apparently has been underestimated significantly maybe by 5 times or 500% per some recent studies on this topic (9). Not to mention China is massively increasing their use of natural gas and fracking. Coincidentally, the largest increases in methane levels occurred in the 1960’s when natural gas use increased significantly- nearly ten-fold.
Oh god we have seen that shit on here before. I'm sure it was you who posted it too. It is Friday night, give us a break for fucks sake.
Robin Grieve, Act candidate for Whangarei. Act, the only party that has ever argued that buffer zones between GE and organic farms were viable. My suggestion was napalm every 30 seconds.
<i>I just watched a vid saying that all methane once its broken down into co2 created from cattle is used to regrow the pasture the cattle grew on . A continuous cyclel that adds nothing new to the atmosphere as long as cattlenumbers dont rise. .
the problem is that there are multiple sources of methane other than ruminants…a major contributor is the gas industry…which is unrelated to the flow argument and growing
It's never simple bwaghorn – about natural processes.
What do you mean they are rapidly planting the hills killing off our way of life. Do you mean that hillside pastures are being taken up by tree plantations? Pinus radiata?
I understand that the idea of planting widely allowing grazing between once the trees have got established is probably the way to go. But don't know for sure, and if so what species? Is it possible for us to not have pinus but another one kinder to the soil.
Perhaps they should be planting big bamboos – not keeping on the old mousewheel of pinus radiata because – fast and it's what we know. Couldn't there be some R&D money to help with trials for diversification that would be studied and published benefitting all with the information.
I understand that the idea of planting widely allowing grazing between once the trees have got established is probably the way to go. But don't know for sure, and if so what species? Is it possible for us to not have pinus but another one kinder to the soil.
This was put to bed with a lot of trials by the old Forest Service in the 70's.
Result – crap trees due to the wide spacing leading to too much branch / canopy and crap pasture due to the shading and water draw by the trees. I think most of the trials were abandoned after less than 15 years, at least the one I had a little to do with at Tikitere was.
That is interesting. So can't put trees in for plantation purposes wide spread. What if the trees were like tagstase? and the animals could both graze grass and the tree, and get shade, and the farmer have some advantage from carbon credits from the tree left in situ? Shade is going to be something that cannot be ignored with the advent of CC becoming hot as hell out there, which would be a variable not high at the time of the trials you referred to.
What do you say about the scenario I put together for possible adoption in the coming years. I guess the old Forest Service in the 70's was still steeped in p.radiata, so different tree – different result perhaps. And edible. And maybe more opportunity for understorey growth with other tree types as I think pinus kills and dries off undergrowth.
Heard of an area that has lost 100 000 stock units to trees lately . At roughly 1 job per 5000 stock units thats a massive whole in the community. Less kids in schools less partners doing other work . Etc .
That's a giant change of finances. Not much coming in for 20-30 years so who would be parking so much finance in the trees for that long, and they might burn down. Would they get insurance in the first place?
Even when foreign money or aggregation of farms happens, there are managers and workers required. Going into trees like that will certainly take people out of the area.
Professor Sir John Curtice, "polling expert": "There have been some remarkably good figures for the Greens so far, who on average are running at 12% of the vote in the wards that they are fighting, up 5 points on their performance in last year's local elections."
Update from Curtice: "Note that in contrast to the position for Labour, compared with 2015 the Conservative vote is down much more heavily in the south of England (by 8 points) as compared with the north of England (by 2 points). If this pattern continues then Tory losses in the south of England tomorrow could still prove to be quite substantial."
Labour are tanking at the moment, with 2 councils lost and -50 councillors.
They may yet, even though polling at around 30%, win a general election, though it'll be more down to Farrage and his brexit it party bleeding support from the Tories at about 18% nationally.
The lib dems are the nights winners, so far, which may also impede on labour in those 3 way seats they need to win to take a majority at parliament.
Welfare working group report just released. Perfectly reasonable recommendations but given this report only exists as part of the confidence & supply agreement with the Greens and would never have happened otherwise, it's safe to say the vast majority of it will be watered down, delayed or totally ignored, especially the raising of the core benefit rates.
Keep questioning I think and they won't be able to get away with a watered down version. It sounds so promising that i feel tremendously hopeful. If there is a spark of old Labour to be dug around and watered, it might send up shoots and flower. A thing of beauty and a joy forever.
Beneficiaries who work will be able to earn more before their pay is docked, and the sanction against solo mothers who don't name the father of their children will be scrapped, as the government begins its overhaul of the welfare system.
If bennies can earn much more, then they can get themselves onto the work train when possible. If they can get child sitting during school holidays then they can work that into an earning scheme that will provide those needed shoes, the sports gear, the inclusion of their kids in events at school.
And not naming the father gives them the option of not including a ne'er-do-well into the family life the mother is trying to build. He may know himself but won't have the department after him for money and it is better if the aim is to help the mother to become self-sustaining which is a good role model for the youngsters. Not having a druggie, alcoholic or play-acting father around, will make for stability and will be likely to cut into the stats for domestic violence. There is choice involved as to whether to have occasional visits or not if the father is a degenerate or just unreliable. It is a blow to a child if a visit is set up and the child is ready and waiting, and the father doesn't turn up, or is drunk and disorderly, or is subtly demeaning of the mother’s efforts so the child is left idolising the idea of him as generous, and the mother as being unworthy, and not to be fully loved which would cut into the mutual support that builds good family ties and relationships.
National bereft of effective positive ideas as usual with their usual expressions of negativity. Louise Upston with this one:
"National disagrees with the bulk of the report, which would see fewer obligations imposed on beneficiaries and fewer incentives to get back into work.
They still haven't caught up with womens lib yet. To them it was university women's lib, so they could grab the well-paying jobs when available that came with perks like maternity leave. Ordinary women were neither to share this bounty, or receive the respect due to mothers and partners trying to bring up healthy children, with values of honesty and kindness, with hope for a skilled job at a decent wage. 'Dragging up your kids' is the disparaging view of better-off National looking at lower income people's efforts, and they fund to match and perpetuate that malign view.
@Grey- my view of welfare does tend to be through the illness/disability lens, ie the one that rarely gets mentioned. Incentives to work mean absolutely nothing to a lot of us, but being able to pay for medical treatment without starving, does. That's not to say I'm not interested in what else is happening in general, but we don't tend to rate much of a mention. Besides, it's hard for the bashers to have a direct attack at us so no air time in the media either. I wish I could join you in feeling hopeful. But history dictates that, even if a few positive changes occur over the next few years, as soon as the government changes again- and being NZ it inevitably will- the first thing the Nats will do is attack welfare.
Something slightly amusing though- I noticed Stuff had opened their comments section for this story, so I posted a comment reminding them about their new policy of not opening stories about beneficiaries for comments, and was the temptation to let back in the bashers too much for them? Funnily enough the comments are now closed 🙂
After reading your and Rosemarys comments i realise that I don't know much about the disability allowance. The welfare net has been set far too high for anyone to be able to fall into it for years. The stupid way that supplements etc were set up should have been adjusted for inflation at the beginning and often were not.
Anyway here is a cute little UK ad from the past about finding work that the increased front line staff might copy.
We might get something in the Budget but Ms Sepuloni doesn't sound promising. 'Staged implementation' makes me think of a performance of Shakespeares 'All's Well that Ends Well' .
Some improvement…getting rid of the sanction for solo mums who don't name the father and increase the amount earned before abatement but….sweet fa for anyone else.
However, Sepuloni said the Government had decided against a recommended move to increase benefit levels by up to 47 per cent immediately so Kiwis could "live in dignity", and was instead "looking at a staged implementation" of change.
It would also allocate $76.3 million for 263 new frontline staff with the sole "focus of helping more people into meaningful and sustainable work".
So, it looks like more of the arbeit mach frei that the Nats were so fond of.
When I saw the headline you linked to Kay I thought of you. I've said this before, but when Peter graduated from the Supported Living Payment to the Super we were actually able to save a few dollars while living almost full time in our Bus and largely free camping.
That is how much difference there is between the SLP and Super.
Maybe they're saving something for those on SLP as a Budget day headline?
@Rosemary, I'd like to think so but it seems pretty clear they're not going to increase any of the core benefits. The one thing they could do (and it wouldn't upset most of the voters either) is getting rid of that pathetic cap on the disability allowance, $62/week or whatever it is now. It hasn't been lifted for years. That would help a lot without having to roll things over onto TAS etc, minimise paperwork.
My rent is now $30/week more than my core benefit so I'm existing entirely off the supplements which I'm maxed out on, and I doubt I'm alone…
Key recommendations of the welfare expert advisory group:
Increase main benefits by between 12 percent and 47 percent
Remove some benefit obligations and sanctions
Fully index all income support payments and thresholds annually to movements in average wages of prices, whichever is the greater
Index accommodation supplement rates to movements in housing costs
Consider introducing a living alone payment that contributes to the additional costs of adults living alone
Reform Working for Families
Reform supplementary assistance and hardship assistance so they are adequate
Ensure sufficient resourcing for frontline services
Help recipients of sole parent support return to part-time work when their youngest child is six years old
Prioritise a reduction in outstanding benefit debt through sustainable repayments and minimise the creation of overpayments, including reviewing recoverable hardship assistance grants
Instigate a cross-government approach to managing debt to government agencies
Seems the government has largely ignored pretty much all of the suggestions.
Mostly interested in happy- clappy headline grabbers.
You sound very religious Gabby. I guess we will all give thanks and prayers for their happy future together, both trying to multi-task, in a balanced modern relationship.
Do you mean so he can get his parliamentary super? I think Winston is so super that has been allocated long ago. And I think he deserves it as he has kept on making politics look vital and meaningful, at least some;times.
"Once you get on to the third or more sequential contract, the person who's on the one-year contract that has been sequentially agreed starts to have an ongoing expectation of employment,"Kiely says.
Except those pesky housing targets won't be met, the trees won't be planted and those child poverdy markers going the wrong direction isn't anything to be pleased about
PR you got your Slushies! That would never have happened under Judith. A vote for her may endanger that.
Yes targets won't be met, but they are at least doing something. If you care about those things PR don't vote for Judiths crowd, join Labour and put pressure on them to go further.
Thanks Cinny and Anne, for some decency. I am missing veteuviper and find much of the comment on here a little depressing and very sour, so I am on holiday for a while from the Standard, and I notice a few other absences. Cheers.
PR you got your Slushies! That would never have happened under Judith. A vote for her may endanger that.
Yes targets won't be met, but they are at least doing something. If you care about those things PR don't vote for Judiths crowd, join Labour and put pressure on them to go further.
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Saudi Arabia is rarely far from the international spotlight. The war in Gaza has brought new scrutiny to Saudi plans to normalise relations with Israel, while the fifth anniversary of the controversial killing of Jamal Khashoggi was marked shortly before the war began on October 7. And as the home ...
Questions need to be asked on both sides of the worldPeter Williams writes – The NRL Judiciary hands down an eight week suspension to Sydney Roosters forward Spencer Leniu , an Auckland-born Samoan, after he calls Ezra Mam, Sydney-orn but of Aboriginal and Torres Strait ...
Ele Ludemann writes – Contrary to what many headlines and news stories are saying, residential landlords are not getting a tax break. The government is simply restoring to them the tax deductibility of interest they had until the previous government removed it. There is no logical reason ...
I can't remember when it was goodMoments of happiness in bloomMaybe I just misunderstoodAll of the love we left behindWatching our flashbacks intertwineMemories I will never findIn spite of whatever you becomeForget that reckless thing turned onI think our lives have just begunI think our lives have just begunDoes anyone ...
Michael Bassett writes – At first reading, a front-page story in the New Zealand Herald on 13 March was bizarre. A group of severely intellectually limited teenagers, with little understanding of the law, have been pleading to the Justice Select Committee not to pass a bill dealing with ram ...
How much political capital is Christopher Luxon willing to burn through in order to deliver his $2.9 billion gift to landlords? Evidently, Luxon is: (a) unable to cost the policy accurately. As Anna Burns-Francis pointed out to him on Breakfast TV, the original ”rock solid” $2.1 billion cost he was ...
TL;DR: My top 10 news and analysis links this morning include:Today’s must-read:Jonathon Porritt calling bullshit in his own blog post on mainstream climate science as ‘The New Denialism’.Local scoop:The Wellington City Council’s list of proposed changes to the IHP recommendations to be debated later today was leaked this ...
TL;DR:Prime Minister Christopher Luxon said yesterday tenants should be grateful for the reinstatement of interest deductibility because landlords would pass on their lower tax costs in the form of lower rents. That would be true if landlords were regulated monopolies such as Transpower or Auckland Airport1, but they’re not, ...
This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Tom Toro Tom Toro is a cartoonist and author. He has published over 200 cartoons in The New Yorker since 2010. His cartoons appear in Playboy, the Paris Review, the New York Times, American Bystander, and elsewhere. Related: What 10 EV lovers ...
The business section of the NZ Herald is full of opinion. Among the more opinionated of all is the ex-Minister of Transport, ex-Minister of Railways, ex MP for Auckland Central (1975-93, Labour), Wellington Central (1996-99, ACT, then list-2005), ex-leader of the ACT Party, uncle to actor Antonia, the veritable granddaddy ...
Hi,Just quickly — I’m blown away by the stories you’ve shared with me over the last week since I put out the ‘Gary’ podcast, where I told you about the time my friend’s flatmate killed the neighbour.And you keep telling me stories — in the comments section, and in my ...
The first season of Rings of Power was not awful. It was thoroughly underwhelming, yes, and left a lingering sense of disappointment, but it was more expensive mediocrity than catastrophe. I wrote at length about the series as it came out (see the Review section of the blog, and go ...
Buzz from the Beehive Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Brooke van Velden told Auckland Business Chamber members they were the first audience to hear her priorities as a minister in a government committed to cutting red tape and regulations. She brandished her liberalising credentials, saying Flexible labour markets are the ...
Chris Trotter writes – TO UNDERSTAND WHY NEWSHUB FAILED, it is necessary to understand how TVNZ changed. Up until 1989, the state broadcaster had been funded by a broadcasting licence fee, collected from every citizen in possession of a television set, supplemented by a relatively modest (compared ...
Bob Edlin writes – The Māori Party has been busy issuing a mix of warnings and threats as its expresses its opposition to interest deductibility for landlords and the plans of seabed miners. It remains to be seen whether they follow the example of indigenous litigants in Australia, ...
The Government has accepted Labour’s change to the Road User Charge (RUC) discount for hybrid vehicles, meaning there will still be some incentive for people to buy greener vehicles. ...
Kicking the most vulnerable people out of state housing and pushing them towards homelessness will result in a proliferation of poverty and trauma across our most vulnerable communities. ...
Te Pāti Māori co-leader and MP for Waiariki, Rawiri Waititi has penned a letter asking MPs to support his members bill to remove GST from all food. The bill is expected to go through its first reading in parliament this Wednesday. “I’m calling on all political parties to support my ...
This year is about getting real with Kiwis and discussing the tough issues, as the National Government exacerbates inequality and divides New Zealand, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said ...
The Government adding Significant Natural Areas (SNAs) to its already roaring environmental policy bonfire is an assault on the future of wildlife that makes Aotearoa unique. ...
After 12 years of fighting to protect our moana we are finding ourselves back at square one and back at court. Today, the Environmental Protection Agency is sitting in Hawera to reconsider an application from Trans-Tasman Resources to dig up 50 million tonnes of the seabed in South Taranaki. This ...
Minister Shane Jones’ decision to step away from a seabed mining project is evidence of the murky waters surrounding the Government’s fast-track legislation. ...
The growth of Treaty of Waitangi clauses in legislation caused so much worry that a special oversight group was set up by the last government in a bid to get greater coherence in the publicservice on Treaty matters. When ministers first considered the need for tighter oversight in 2021, there ...
The growth of Treaty of Waitangi clauses in legislation caused so much worry that a special oversight group was set up by the last government in a bid to get greater coherence in the publicservice on Treaty matters. When ministers first considered the need for tighter oversight in 2021, there ...
The Coalition Government’s miscalculation saga continues as it has forgotten an eyewatering $90 million gap in its interest deductibility cost figures, say Labour Finance spokesperson Barbara Edmonds and Revenue Spokesperson Deborah Russell. ...
He Pou a Rangi Climate Change Commission has today released advice that says if the Government doesn’t act now New Zealand is at risk of not meeting its climate goals. ...
The Coalition Government has today confirmed it is abandoning first home buyers who are struggling to get ahead, says Labour Finance spokesperson Barbara Edmonds. ...
The New Zealand public voted for a change in direction at the 2023 general election and that is exactly what this coalition government has been delivering in its first 100 days. There was an immediate focus on the economy, easing the cost of living, cracking down on law and order ...
The Government has left the health system as an afterthought, announcing half-baked targets at the last minute of their 100-day plan, says Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall. ...
The National Government has spent its first 100 days stopping, cutting and reversing. They have scrapped stuff for stuff for the sake of it, without putting up any solutions of their own – and it’s hardworking New Zealanders who will pay for it. ...
Kiwis are still waiting for their promised cost of living support after 100 days of a National Government that is taking us backwards, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said today. ...
100 days of National taking NZ backwardsThe National Government has spent its first 100 days stopping, cutting and reversing. They have scrapped stuff for stuff for the sake of it, without putting up any solutions of their own – and it’s hardworking New Zealanders who will pay for it. ...
The Government must commit to funding free and healthy school lunches, as thousands of people sign the petition to keep them, education spokesperson Jan Tinetti says. ...
If the Government was serious about moving families into public housing, they would build more houses so there is actually somewhere for people to go. ...
The free and healthy school lunches programme feeds our kids, helps them to learn, and saves families money – but it is at risk under this Government, education spokesperson Jan Tinetti said. ...
The Government’s proposed changes to Firearms Prohibition Orders (FPO) add almost nothing new and are merely an attempt to distract from its plans to loosen gun laws, police spokesperson Ginny Andersen and justice spokesperson Dr Duncan Webb said. ...
The great Victorian era English politician Lord Macauley stood in the British House of Parliament and said, "The gallery in which the reporters sit has become a fourth estate of the realm".He understood and outlined even way back then, the significant role and influence media have in a democracy. ...
The government’s attack on Māori health this week is committing tangata-whenua to a premature death, says Te Pāti Māori. “The government have begun their onslaught on Māori health with the abolishment of the Māori Health Authority and smokefree laws in the same day” said health spokesperson and co-leader, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer. ...
"The Government is moving quickly to realise an additional $46 million in tariff savings in the EU market this season for Kiwi exporters,” Minister for Trade and Agriculture, Todd McClay says. Parliament is set, this week, to complete the final legislative processes required to bring the New Zealand – European ...
New Zealand’s social workers are qualified, experienced, and more representative of the communities they serve, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “I want to acknowledge and applaud New Zealand’s social workers for the hard work they do, providing invaluable support for our most vulnerable. “To coincide with World ...
Cabinet has agreed to a reduced road user charge (RUC) rate for plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs), Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. Owners of PHEVs will be eligible for a reduced rate of $38 per 1,000km once all light electric vehicles (EVs) move into the RUC system from 1 April. ...
Minister of Agriculture and Trade, Todd McClay, says that today’s opening of Riverland Foods manufacturing plant in Christchurch is a great example of how trade access to overseas markets creates jobs in New Zealand. Speaking at the official opening of this state-of-the-art pet food factory the Minister noted that exports ...
Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters met with Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi in Wellington today. “It was a pleasure to host Foreign Minister Wang Yi during his first official visit to New Zealand since 2017. Our discussions were wide-ranging and enabled engagement on many facets of New Zealand’s relationship with China, including trade, ...
Kāinga Ora – Homes & Communities has been instructed to end the Sustaining Tenancies Framework and take stronger measures against persistent antisocial behaviour by tenants, says Housing Minister Chris Bishop. “Earlier today Finance Minister Nicola Willis and I sent an interim Letter of Expectations to the Board of Kāinga Ora. ...
Tēna koutou katoa. Greetings everyone. Thank you to the Auckland Chamber of Commerce and the Honourable Simon Bridges for hosting this address today. I acknowledge the business leaders in this room, the leaders and governors, the employers, the entrepreneurs, the investors, and the wealth creators. The coalition Government shares your ...
Minister Winston Peters completed the final leg of his visit to South and South East Asia in Singapore today, where he focused on enhancing one of New Zealand’s indispensable strategic partnerships. “Singapore is our most important defence partner in South East Asia, our fourth-largest trading partner and a ...
Minister of Internal Affairs and Workplace Relations and Safety, Hon. Brooke van Velden, will travel to the Republic of Korea to represent New Zealand at the Third Summit for Democracy on 18 March. The summit, hosted by the Republic of Korea, was first convened by the United States in 2021, ...
ICNZ Speech 7 March 2024, Auckland Acknowledgements and opening Mōrena, ngā mihi nui. Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Nor Whanganui aho. Good morning, it’s a privilege to be here to open the ICNZ annual conference, thank you to Mark for the Mihi Whakatau My thanks to Tim Grafton for inviting me ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Lead Coordination Minister Judith Collins have expressed their deepest sympathy on the five-year anniversary of the Christchurch terror attacks. “March 15, 2019, was a day when families, communities and the country came together both in sorrow and solidarity,” Mr Luxon says. “Today we pay our respects to the 51 shuhada ...
Speech for Financial Advice NZ Conference 5 March 2024 Acknowledgements and opening Morena, Nga Mihi Nui. Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Nor Whanganui aho. Thanks Nate for your Mihi Whakatau Good morning. It’s a pleasure to formally open your conference this morning. What a lovely day in Wellington, What a great ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters held discussions in Jakarta today about the future of relations between New Zealand and South East Asia’s most populous country. “We are in Jakarta so early in our new government’s term to reflect the huge importance we place on our relationship with Indonesia and South ...
Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters has announced that the Foreign Minister of China, Wang Yi, will visit New Zealand next week. “We look forward to re-engaging with Foreign Minister Wang Yi and discussing the full breadth of the bilateral relationship, which is one of New Zealand’s ...
Transport Minister Simeon Brown has today opened the new Auckland Rail Operations Centre, which will bring together KiwiRail, Auckland Transport, and Auckland One Rail to improve service reliability for Aucklanders. “The recent train disruptions in Auckland have highlighted how important it is KiwiRail and Auckland’s rail agencies work together to ...
The Government is proud to support the 10th edition of Crankworx Rotorua as the Crankworx World Tour returns to Rotorua from 16-24 March 2024, says Minister for Economic Development Melissa Lee. “Over the past 10 years as Crankworx Rotorua has grown, so too have the economic and social benefits that ...
Legislation implementing coalition Government tax commitments and addressing long-standing tax anomalies will be progressed in Parliament next week, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. The legislation is contained in an Amendment Paper to the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2023–24, Multinational Tax, and Remedial Matters) Bill issued today. “The Amendment Paper represents ...
Associate Environment Minister Andrew Hoggard has today announced that the Government has agreed to suspend the requirement for councils to comply with the Significant Natural Areas (SNA) provisions of the National Policy Statement for Indigenous Biodiversity for three years, while it replaces the Resource Management Act (RMA).“As it stands, SNAs ...
Agriculture Minister Todd McClay has classified the drought conditions in the Marlborough, Tasman, and Nelson districts as a medium-scale adverse event, acknowledging the challenging conditions facing farmers and growers in the district. “Parts of Marlborough, Tasman, and Nelson districts are in the grip of an intense dry spell. I know ...
The Government is helping farmers eradicate the significant impact of facial eczema (FE) in pastoral animals, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced. “A $20 million partnership jointly funded by Beef + Lamb NZ, the Government, and the primary sector will save farmers an estimated NZD$332 million per year, and aims to ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has completed a successful visit to India, saying it was an important step in taking the relationship between the two countries to the next level. “We have laid a strong foundation for the Coalition Government’s priority of enhancing New Zealand-India relations to generate significant future benefit for both countries,” says Mr Peters, ...
Cabinet has agreed to provide $7 million to ensure the 2024 ski season can go ahead on the Whakapapa ski field in the central North Island but has told the operator Ruapehu Alpine Lifts it is the last financial support it will receive from taxpayers. Cabinet also agreed to provide ...
Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says the launch of a new mobile breast screening unit in Counties Manukau reinforces the coalition Government’s commitment to drive better cancer services for all New Zealanders. Speaking at the launch of the new mobile clinic, Dr Reti says it’s a great example of taking ...
Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says the launch of a new mobile breast screening unit in Counties Manukau reinforces the coalition Government’s commitment to drive better cancer services for all New Zealanders. Speaking at the launch of the new mobile clinic, Dr Reti says it’s a great example of taking ...
Unlocking economic growth and land for housing are critical elements of the Government’s plan for our transport network, and planned upgrades to State Highway 29 (SH29) near Tauriko will deliver strongly on those priorities, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “The SH29 upgrades near Tauriko will improve safety at the intersections ...
Unlocking economic growth and land for housing are critical elements of the Government’s plan for our transport network, and planned upgrades to State Highway 29 (SH29) near Tauriko will deliver strongly on those priorities, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “The SH29 upgrades near Tauriko will improve safety at the intersections ...
Lower fruit and vegetable prices are welcome news for New Zealanders who have been doing it tough at the supermarket, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. Stats NZ reported today the price of fruit and vegetables has dropped 9.3 percent in the 12 months to February 2024. “Lower fruit and vege ...
Tēnā koutou katoa and greetings to you all. Chair, I am honoured to address the sixty-eighth session of the Commission on the Status of Women. I acknowledge the many crises impacting the rights of women and girls. Heightened global tensions, war, climate related and humanitarian disasters, and price inflation all ...
Tēnā koutou katoa and greetings to you all. Chair, I am honoured to address the 68th session of the Commission on the Status of Women. I acknowledge the many crises impacting the rights of women and girls. Heightened global tensions, war, climate related and humanitarian disasters, and price inflation all ...
The coalition Government is supporting farmers to enhance land management practices by investing $3.3 million in locally led catchment groups, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced. “Farmers and growers deliver significant prosperity for New Zealand and it’s vital their ongoing efforts to improve land management practices and water quality are supported,” ...
Good evening everyone and thank you for that lovely introduction. Thank you also to the Honourable Simon Bridges for the invitation to address your members. Since being sworn in, this coalition Government has hit the ground running with our 100-day plan, delivering the changes that New Zealanders expect of us. ...
Recommendations from the Climate Change Commission for New Zealand on the Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) auction and unit limit settings for the next five years have been tabled in Parliament, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. “The Commission provides advice on the ETS annually. This is the third time the ...
The coalition Government is beginning its fight to lower building costs and reduce red tape by exempting minor building work from paying the building levy, says Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk. “Currently, any building project worth $20,444 including GST or more is subject to the building levy which is ...
Proposed changes to tax legislation to prevent the over-taxation of low-earning trusts are welcome, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. The changes have been recommended by Parliament’s Finance and Expenditure Committee following consideration of submissions on the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2023–24, Multinational Tax, and Remedial Matters) Bill. “One of the ...
Assalaamu alaikum. السَّلَام عليكم In light of the holy month of Ramadan, I want to extend my warmest wishes to our Muslim community in New Zealand. Ramadan is a time for spiritual reflection, renewed devotion, perseverance, generosity, and forgiveness. It’s a time to strengthen our bonds and appreciate the diversity ...
Former Transport Minister and CEO of the Auckland Business Chamber Hon Simon Bridges has been appointed as the new Board Chair of the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) for a three-year term, Transport Minister Simeon Brown announced today. “Simon brings extensive experience and knowledge in transport policy and governance to the role. He will ...
Good morning all, it is a pleasure to be here as Minister of Science, Innovation and Technology. It is fantastic to see how connected and collaborative the life science and biotechnology industry is here in New Zealand. I would like to thank BioTechNZ and NZTech for the invitation to address ...
Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says he is looking forward to the day when three key water projects in Northland are up and running, unlocking the full potential of land in the region. Mr Jones attended a community event at the site of the Otawere reservoir near Kerikeri on Friday. ...
Associate Finance Minister David Seymour has today announced that the Government has agreed to restore deductibility for mortgage interest on residential investment properties. “Help is on the way for landlords and renters alike. The Government’s restoration of interest deductibility will ease pressure on rents and simplify the tax code,” says ...
Sport and Recreation Minister Chris Bishop will travel to Switzerland today to attend an Executive Committee meeting and Symposium of the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA). Mr Bishop will then travel on to London where he will attend a series of meetings in his capacity as Infrastructure Minister. “New Zealanders believe ...
Pacific Media Watch Ismail al-Ghoul, an Al Jazeera Arabic correspondent who was held for 12 hours at Gaza’s al-Shifa hospital, says Israeli forces rounded up Palestinian journalists at the facility and made them kneel on the ground for hours, while naked and blindfolded. “The occupation forces handcuffed and blindfolded us ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Tony Wood, Program Director, Energy, Grattan Institute chinasong, Shutterstock Electricity customers in four Australian states can breathe a sigh of relief. After two years in a row of 20% price increases, power prices have finally stabilised. In many places they’re ...
Chumbawamba have reportedly issued the deputy PM a cease-and-desist notice after he used their song 'Tubthumping' before his state of the nation speech. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Deborah Lupton, SHARP Professor, Vitalities Lab, Centre for Social Research in Health and Social Policy Centre, and the ARC Centre of Excellence for Automated Decision-Making and Society, UNSW Sydney kitzcorner/Shutterstock The assertion from Queensland’s chief health officer John Gerrard that ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Peter Martin, Visiting Fellow, Crawford School of Public Policy, Australian National University Shutterstock Why are musicians so keen to get played on the radio? It can’t be because of the money. In Australia they are paid at rates so low they ...
"Farmers make a point not to tell our urban cousins how to live, yet Chlöe from central Auckland is hell-bent on having her say about farmers," says ACT Rural Communities spokesman Mark Cameron. “On her first day in the House as Green ...
Analysis by Dr Bryce Edwards – Democracy Project (https://democracyproject.nz)Political scientist, Dr Bryce Edwards. It’s been a tumultuous time in politics in recent months, as the new National-led Government has driven through its “First 100 Day programme”. During this period there’s been a handful of opinion polls, which overall just ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Tim Curran, Associate Professor of Ecology, Lincoln University, New Zealand Getty Images/Gerald Corsi In the latest move to reform environmental laws in New Zealand, the coalition government has introduced a bill to fast-track consenting processes for projects deemed to ...
Uber has argued it does not have as much control over drivers as the unions suggest, and wants a judgment ruling that drivers are employees and not contractors set aside and sent back to the Employment Court. The 2022 ruling followed a three-week hearing in which four drivers sought to ...
What can and can’t be purchased by disabled people or their carers has been slashed in an effort by the Ministry of Disabled People Whaikaha to save money. The purchasing guidelines, a set of rules that sets out what can be purchased using the various streams of Government disability funding, ...
The Treasury has published today a new Analytical Note by Tod Wright and Hien Nguyen, Fiscal incidence in New Zealand: The effects of taxes and benefits on household incomes in tax year 2018/19 . Analyses of the distributional impact of taxation and government ...
The Treasury has published today a new Analytical Note by Cory Davis, Boston Hart and Benjamin Stubbing, Household cost-of-living impacts from the Emissions Trading Scheme and using transfers to mitigate regressive outcomes . This Analytical Note ...
A coalition of public transport and climate organisations, united as ‘Transport for All’, is actively opposing the government’s transport proposals. The draft Government Policy Statement (GPS) includes plans for higher fares for public transport, ...
Greater Wellington is inviting feedback on proposed changes to its Revenue and Financing Policy. The Revenue and Financing Policy covers the Council’s various sources of funding, and how the cost of services is shared across the region. This includes ...
Labour has conceded it could have done more to deal with disruptive state housing tenants while in government but says the current coalition is going too far. ...
The band has asked their record label to issue a cease and desist to stop the NZ First leader using their 1997 hit to support his ‘misguided political views’. “I get knocked down, but I get up again,” blared through the speakers on Sunday as Winston Peters took the stage ...
By Lydia Lewis, RNZ Pacific journalist Food rationing is underway in remote areas in Papua New Guinea’s Highlands following torrential rain and flash flooding. More than 20 people have been reported dead in Chimbu Province. In nearby Enga Province, the centre of last month’s massacre, a 15-year-old boy has been ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Andrew Hughes, Lecturer, Research School of Management, Australian National University After months of debate and intrigue, the AFL’s 19th and newest team, the Tasmania Devils, finally launched its jumper, logo and colours in Devonport this week. The Devils will wear green, ...
Brannavan Gnanalingam reviews the debut novel by Saraid de Silva.One of the most baffling things for children who move to a new country is what their parents’ (or grandparents’) lives were like prior to moving – for kids in particular, they’re too busy trying to fit in in their ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Stephen Gaunson, Associate Professor in Cinema Studies, RMIT University Narelle Portanier/Binge “If you don’t know who your mob are, you don’t know who you are,” Detective Andrea “Andie” Whitford (played by Leah Purcell) is told early into the new crime ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Elise Klein, Associate professor, Australian National University It’s commonly accepted that women do the vast majority of caregiving in Australian society. But less appreciated is that Indigenous women do larger amounts of unpaid care than any other group. Working with the Aboriginal ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Adrian Beaumont, Election Analyst (Psephologist) at The Conversation; and Honorary Associate, School of Mathematics and Statistics, The University of Melbourne Joe Biden and Donald Trump have both secured their parties’ nominations for the November 5 United States general election by winning a ...
Comment: There has been a striking contrast in trans-Tasman interest about Chinese foreign minister Wang Yi’s visit to New Zealand and Australia. While the Australian press has been full of articles about the visit – including his curious decision to meet with former prime minister and China booster Paul Keating ...
After years of pressuring banks and other institutions to stop investing in fossil fuels, climate campaigners are making some progress. So how does divestment work?For years, climate activists have been pushing banks and other big institutions to divest from fossil fuels. New research from climate advocacy group 350 Aotearoa ...
For Boba, Ethan and Ashley, K-pop is a place to belong, a way to express themselves, and a bridge to connect with others. The three young Polynesians are part of a K-pop fan community in Tāmaki Makaurau. It’s one of many that have sprung up worldwide as K-pop has gone ...
For Boba, Ethan and Ashley, K-pop is a place to belong, a way to express themselves, and a bridge to connect with others. This one-off documentary presents three intimate portraits of young Polynesians who are pulled into a Korean cultural phenomenon. K-POLYS is directed by Litia Tuiburelevu, Produced by Hex ...
There’s ample evidence demonstrating free school lunch programmes provide wide benefits across schools, households and communities according to public health researchers. ACT Minister David Seymour wants to reduce the spending on Aotearoa New Zealand’s ...
By Wata Shaw in Suva Fiji is facing an exodus of Fijians as many are leaving for overseas seeking employment and education and others are migrating, says Opposition MP Viliame Naupoto. Speaking in Parliament, he said: “His Excellency’s speech (Ratu Wiliame Katonivere) comes after a little over one year of ...
The Taxpayers’ Union is welcoming comments from Christopher Luxon this morning recommitting to ‘no new taxes’ as part of Budget 2024. “Mr Luxon’s refusal at the Post-Cabinet press conference yesterday to repeat the ‘no new taxes’ promise ...
SAFE is urgently calling on the Environment Committee to reject the Government’s Fast-Track Approvals Bill, and is urging New Zealanders to rally behind the call. The proposed Bill, currently under consideration with the Environment select committee, ...
Teammates who spend all their time picking fights with spectators are only helpful for the other team, writes Madeleine Chapman. Anyone who has ever played a team sport competitively, particularly as a child and particularly, for some reason, basketball, will know that there’s a lot of politics involved. While there ...
The long-running Wellington music festival is too focused on the Jim Beam-ness and not enough on the Homegrown-ness.There is something about Homegrown that’s difficult to place. A barely perceptible-ness. Like feeling a ghost is watching you from the corner of the room but when you look, there’s nothing there. ...
The latest Ipsos New Zealand Issues Monitor reveals that fewer New Zealanders believe crime / law and order is one of the top issues facing our country. In 2018, Ipsos New Zealand started tracking the key issues facing New Zealand. In this wave ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Kate Griffiths, Deputy Program Director, Budgets and Government, Grattan Institute Australia’s political donations rules are woefully inadequate, but donations reform is finally on the agenda. The federal government has signalled its interest in reform and will soon begin briefing MPs on its ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Mark Patrick Taylor, Chief Environmental Scientist, EPA Victoria; Honorary Professor, School of Natural Sciences, Macquarie University Naiyana Somchitkaeo/Shutterstock A recent study published in the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine has linked microplastics with risk to human health. The study ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Albert Van Dijk, Professor, Water and Landscape Dynamics, Fenner School of Environment & Society, Australian National University Global climate records were shattered in 2023, from air and sea temperatures to sea-level rise and sea-ice extent. Scores of countries recorded their hottest year ...
As part of our series exploring how New Zealanders live and our relationship with money, a teacher explains why he and his partner are in frugal mode – and how they’re making it work. Gender: Male Age: 35Ethnicity: Pākehā Role: I am an intermediate school teacher and my partner is ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sarah Bendall, Senior Lecturer, Institute for Humanities and Social Sciences, Australian Catholic University Binge Mary & George, the new British television drama series, depicts the real-life story of Mary Villiers and her son George, and their social climbing at the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jason Nassios, Associate Professor, Centre of Policy Studies, Victoria University This article is part of The Conversation’s series examining the housing crisis. Read the other articles in the series here. Australian state and federal governments spend money in many ways to ...
The finance minister is denying that there’s a $5.6b shortfall in paying for the government’s campaign promises, including tax cuts. At his post-cabinet press conference yesterday, the PM refused to rule out new taxes to pay for the cuts, writes Anna Rawhiti-Connell in this excerpt from The Bulletin, The Spinoff’s ...
Kāinga Ora tenants abused by their neighbours are doubting the government's crackdown on disruptive tenants will make a difference on their behaviour. ...
Kāinga Ora is New Zealand’s biggest residential landlord, housing more than 180,000 vulnerable people in more than 67,000 properties. Yesterday the government announced a crackdown on its tenants who fall behind on rent. One longtime Kāinga Ora tenant shares her experience.For 18 years I lived in a 1960s standalone ...
Why does this myth persist, and what’s the real reason our skin is suffering?It’s one of the biggest international grievances New Zealanders hold, up there with the sinking of the Rainbow Warrior and 1981’s underarm incident. We’re quick to tell international travellers that the world’s pollution led to the ...
Opinion: In a move that has shocked road safety advocates across the country, the new Minister of Transport, Simeon Brown, is poised to abandon the previous government’s speed limit reduction policy, particularly around schools. Even more alarmingly, he wants school speed limits to be variable rather than full-time, arguing ...
Auckland Council is opposing a fast-track development backed by Sir John Kirwan and Spark NZ, because it doesn’t meet stringent new climate adaptation requirements The post Surf-data centre faces new 3.8C climate warming rules appeared first on Newsroom. ...
When the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Act was introduced in 2009 it was firmly targeted at gangs and drugs. The legislation means police no longer need a conviction to seize assets that criminals can’t prove were paid for legitimately, as long as their alleged offences are punishable by more than a ...
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Avengers: Endgame for scientists.
Gravitational waves hunt now in overdrive
Is it even possible for Maori to be racist towards each other? Some folks seem to believe it is: "National Party deputy leader Paula Bennett has accused Minister Willie Jackson of racism, saying he questioned whether she's Māori enough." https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/05/willie-jackson-paula-bennett-locked-in-fierce-racism-row.html
And how can we tell if someone is Maori enough anyway? Genetic analysis? Ought there to be a public record of their exact percentage for funding purposes, perhaps part of the census? Interesting road opening up here, but ought we to head down it?
"Jackson's Labour Māori caucus colleague Peeni Henare went further, actually questioning whether Bennett is Māori enough." Big call, claiming the second question is further than the first, but that's journalists for you. Just questions so far. No actual judgments.
"I haven't seen her contribution to the community for Māori kaupapa, I haven't seen her on the marae, I haven't seen her dry dishes, I haven't seen her do a karanga – therefore, it should be raising the question," he said.
Henare manages to tick at least two boxes with this. Bennett (who is a sad apology for a human being) is condemned as being not Maori enough by a Maori male because she doesn't behave the way he thinks a Maori woman should?
Sigh.
Criticise the woman for her many, many appalling words and actions as a politician, but damning her because she fails to fit his view of an acceptable Maori woman is a sacking offense.
Stupid men. Poor Ardern having to sort this one out.
Turns out there was context that the Newshub report didn't mention: "How does he [Jackson] determine whether the Māori in the Mana in Mahi programme are Māori enough to be counted?" she asked after Jackson said of the 143 clients have been placed in the programme 75 participants – some 52 per cent – identify as Māori."
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12227351
Henare's position is also expanded here: ""blood quantum simply isn't enough" when it comes to being Māori. "I've always felt that you have to reach a threshold of need, participation and contribution in Māori Kaupapa. If you don't, of course, questions are going to be raised." He said he was "more than happy" for those questions to be raised of anybody who claims to be Māori who does not meet that threshold."
Science would measure the blood quantum via genetics, but he's making it clear that there's a cultural determinant that applies equally. Where does that leave urban Maori who have evolved several generations since the colonial era, many of whom apparently become disconnected from their tribal roots? Required to re-enculture themselves to qualify?
Science would measure the blood quantum via genetics,
No, Social Science would look at culture. Biology has nothing to do with it other than the person having a Maori ancestor.
You really believe blood is a cultural construct?? Most people believe it is a physical thing. Science usually proves stuff by examining physical evidence. Seems like Henare is acknowledging that via his reference: "blood quantum". He then includes culture as part of identity.
His application of both/and logic seems appropriate to me, yet your comment excludes the biological part of Maori identity. That seems wrong. Why do you disagree with Henare?
No, blood is a red liquid that transports oxygen and nutrients through the body.
Social Science studies the shared ideas of social groups and how people identify as part of a group.
Maori get to define what "Maori" is not some racist Pakeha prick like you using racist Pakeha ideas about 'race'. To be Maori a person must have at least one Maori ancestor, as i said, and identify as being Maori. That is the way it has always been.
Henare does not specify any particular amount of 'blood quantum' and i assume this is just a clumsy way of saying some genetic heritage. Henare would be out on a limb with his other comments about level of involvement, i would think. Jackson said as much.
Again i am not sure if you are being stupid or just the shit stirring prick that you obviously are.
"Maori get to define what "Maori" is".
Fascinating. Does that mean that Bennett is entitled to decide that neither Jackson nor Henare is a Maori? Would that mean that Peeni Henare would be disqualified from being an MP from a Maori electorate seat and that there will be a by-election?
Or can only a Labour MP make such decisions and what you really mean is that some animals are more equal than others, as Orwell would put it?
It is defined in Tikangi. I use "Maori" in a collective sense. You might not know it but we don't say 'Maoris'.
Even I know that.You surely don't imagine that you are a unique source of knowledge about such things do you? So what? It doesn't change the question. Who get to make the call? You surely aren't going to tell me that it must be unanimous are you?
"The call" was made a very long time ago when Maori first started breeding with Europeans.
Well that is certainly a masterpiece of Delphic ambiguity. Given the names Jackson, Peters, and Bennett it is pretty clear that they had ancestors who indulged in the activity. The jury is still out on whether Henare qualifies.
Doesn't answer the question of course.
Completely agree Rosemary
+ 1 yep – willie is a wanker – he needs to decolonise his mind.
It is Peeni Henare who Rosemary is quoting.
Sorry. Both Peeni and Willie need to decolonise their minds – this 'not Māori' enough stuff is colonisation 101.
Exactly.
Sigh.
I know 'all's fair'etc. but even pakeha me sees this kind of shit as being just what The Man ordered.
I am disappointed they both fell into it.
Willie doesn't believe in being PC. Sometimes I don't like his approach, but this morning on Radionz he made his point for not being a slang-free society. A bit of to-and-fro is more honest than rigid people complying with the conventions as well as the laws, and being completely shuttered and negative in their minds as to the humanity of the situation.
any anti PC person is a wanker too imo – willie loves the sound of his own voice is about his depth
Being PC in everything is just so PC marty mars. Good to keep on going round in circles, keeps you in touch with yourself, otherwise one can get lost in the harakeke.
Oh Marty you are also anti PC all the time !!!!!!
never; – rubbish;
So when will we see you as a PC?
Never in my life.
You lost me but it's all okay – I am a full on card carrying believer in political correctness as it is known by its enemies and kindness as it is known by its friends.
Marty Keep it up and you may join the human race eventually.
I can say with surety that the word 'race', in all its lurid connotations, is one of my least favorite words – I might even be so bold as to put it at the top of my disliked words or perhaps the bottom depending upon my fickle mood.
You'll be fine as long as you remember who ever wins the rat race they're still a rat.
Obviously being Maori, as with any ethnicity, involves more than just having a genetic component. My grandfather was Scottish but there is nothing in the way that i live my life or understand the world around me that is particularly Scottish. I could not claim to belong to this ethnic group.
It is always hard to know if you are as ignorant as you pretend to be.
Being in the kitchen helping with the tremendous hospitality that Maori turn out for their cultural purposes is one of the Maori women's cultural activities, and the men set everything up, dig the hangi and set it up etc.
It's just division of duties for the successful outcome to a function and not to be judged by pakeha women as not coinciding with their efforts to gain mana and standing for women who have had to fight their way up from a lower status than Maori women had.
I think you meant to reply to Rosemary.
I was just tacking myself on to the end with a general comment. It sometimes interferes with the flow of the comments and replies to come in late and add something a bit different solkta.
And agree Sacha. I was stating what I have learned from having been on marae helping and been told and observed what I referred to in my earlier comment.
Not just women who dry dishes on marae these days. It is being used as a metaphor for humbly serving community.
+ 1 yep
Exactly.
Well said greywarshark.
I have been on many marae events and my grandson is of Ngati-porau, of nga whanau me nga hapu o Ngati Porou, so I enjoy Maori serving of food with aroha and hospitality it is very warm.
I speak very little Maori sadly, but my heart is there but the life is to short.
“It is always hard to know ..”
Ignorance is as ignorance does.
solkta "My grandfather was Scottish but there is nothing in the way that i live my life or understand the world around me that is particularly Scottish. I could not claim to belong to this ethnic group."
Can I suggest that you have it quite back-to-front.
It isn't that scots have moved away from scottishness, it is that scottishness has moved forward to new places and cultural activities, thus re-defining that ethnicity.
This idea that ethnicity has strict rules around what you have to do to belong grates like fingernails down a chalkboard. It makes no sense and I reject it. Humanity and its ethnicities have long been in a state of flux and change – immigrating, colonising, going to McDonalds, it never stops moving.
Similarly with maori – it shouldn't be that you have to conduct yourself in certain ways to be that ethnicity, it should be that whatever activities you conduct in your life as a maori become a part of that ethnicity. This is, after all, how that ethnicity and its current cultural activities came into being in the first place…
You have it all backwards imo
it should be that whatever activities you conduct in your life as a maori become a part of that ethnicity.
No it should be whatever Maori do as a group. Otherwise you are just talking about 'race'.
I do get your point that culture is not static, but it has to be morphing from one set of parameters to another. Maori culture is obviously different from what it was pre European contact, but it is still distinct from that of other groups.
"No it should be whatever Maori do as a group"
But it is being done as part of that group – that was my point and why I said “whatever activities you conduct in your life as a maori”. Whatever one does with one's life is as part of that group. I don't see how one person's life can be separated out from the group like you suggest.
A little more to add:
The principle I outline above is the exact same principle used by maori for various claims made under te tiriti for matters which maori previously had no knowledge of, let alone activity in. For example, radio waves.
Willie Jackson is being empty-headed with his claims and he should turn his mind to this principle, which he has supported countless times himself in the past. What a nincompoop
He's a great little talker Willie J is.
My understanding of the the claims for the Treaty are that the tikanga is not set in stone; the Treaty is a living thing, changing with times, developments, experiences and perceptions. So the Treaty that was perceived at the time that it was signed, is still the Treaty at a different time but with some different perceptions about it. The main one being that there was an agreement made to preserve and maintain elements of life.
As for being a Maori, my understanding is that it is variable. There may be blood relationships, or it may be acceptance relationships through marriage or even if someone has been accepted as one of the group and become a sister or brother by agreement. This then requires that person to fulfill family duties and responsibilities to that group, hapu or marae, if they want to be fully included. It seems to me that it is a matter of heart, and acceptance, and mutual commitment.
But all Maori aren't equal; different groups have their own ways and perceptions. One tribe may not accept someone from another. And one of my relatives is both Maori and pakeha, pale skinned, from a South Island tribe. Some of them are not fully accepting because of the pale skin. When in Northland around 1950, that tribe's similar attitudes were isolating which led to loneliness.
I am a bit confused I am part Irish/Scottish/Greek/English on my mothers' side of the family, however a family DNA test has come back as mainly Iberian ie Spanish/Portugese and on my fathers side I am mainly Scottish & Maori so what does that make me ?
Sounds like a whole heap of B/S IMHO ?
"so what does that make me ?"
Probably a well balanced decent person.
Going off to a tangent my wife has done my family tree. There is a bit of Scottish, Irish and German in me. I had to have a Cataract operation a few years ago and the surgeon said he was going to fit a Zeiss lens in my eye. I can now say honestly that there is a bit of German in me
Genetics is a bit of a lottery.
Your siblings may have common genetic ancestry, but what you end up with could be completely different from what your brothers and sisters have.
Each individual inherits their own unique mix.
solkta
As an example of how threads can be disrupted and hard to follow when the reply doesn't state the original commenter, you at 8.51 am saying about being ignorant comes below mine at 10.15 am so you were not referring to me.
It seems it was referring to either Dennis F or Rosemary M further up at 3.1…
The indent shows plus it says in the "Comments" list which is surely where most start from.
Jackson explains what he meant here:
https://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018693391
The non apology – it's attitudes like jackson expresses, those distorted views, that directly contribute to the appalling statistics young Māori are over represented in – disgraceful.
"Interesting road opening up here"
There is nothing remotely interesting or useful about dinosaur racism. Keep it to yourself.
People who think racism ought not to feature in public discussion are rare nowadays. You part of a dying breed??
Anyone who uses the words 'blood' or 'quantum' is not adding anything useful. Back under that rock with you.
Look, if you want to criticise a Labour MP then do so directly, like Marty. Being so oblique just makes you seem dishonest. And since when have you ever tried to add anything useful to this site?? All you seem capable of is random misunderstandings of the discourse.
You have taken Henare's stupidity and run with it. Above you have said things like:
"your comment excludes the biological part of Maori identity. That seems wrong."
and
"Ought there to be a public record of their exact percentage for funding purposes, perhaps part of the census?"
which is inexcusably ignorant in this day and age. Life is too short to put up with fools polluting the public pool. Such nonsense would be warmly welcomed at Kiwibog.
So explain why you disagree with the Labour minister's reference to the biological part of Maori identity, and why you disagree with applying a metric to that. And why you lack a sense of humour. 🙄
Dennis F
You are so sure of yourself. You might remember the quote about who are fools and who are wise. When you start talking about Maori proving that biologically you are going back over arguments made decades ago, even a century.
If you know so little about Maori matters better you stay out of giving your opinions – you haven't got up to first base and need to go away, read up and learn. Everybody needs to do some homework for themselves so they can discuss from the point of view of some appropriate authority.
So does that mean you didn't notice that the Labour minister referred to "blood quantum"?? Or do you think blood is not biological??
Did you also not notice that I mostly asked questions? Which of my opinions are you actually referring to? Did you notice that respondents failed to address what he actually said? Do you think such evasion of political comments is what this website ought to feature, and if so, why?
If you get my drift, it ain't about me at all, no matter how hard some respondents are trying to spin it. It's about the news!
It is a good thing for a pakeha to sit back and let Maori sort matters out between themselves. Feelings and tikanga, expectations and resentments may have to be worked through and require a truce between them to their mutual resignation.
That is for them to work out. You can't cut perceptions into thin slices and put them under a microscope. Until you are required to make a decision because you are in a position requiring decisions or legality, then it would be discerning of you to remain politely in the background.
If as a pakeha, you have seen the strong feelings that can arise after the death of a parent between the various siblings, you might have an idea of the emotional aspect to be worked out in relationships.
Who is the she who was trying to boss you?
Sacha @ 3.4 & 3.4.1.1 and she seems to be coming from a pc position, which I'm allergic to. I get where you're coming from. Unfortunately, to me it looks and smells like censorship.
So my stance is that I have as much right to comment on cultural & political matters in Aotearoa as anyone else. To the extent that Maori stuff affect us, I comment on that. If it doesn't affect the pakeha world, I don't. This item does.
The reason is that a new bit of political culture was invented by the three Maori MPs involved. You will see that I introduced the topic with a question that goes straight to the heart of it. The significant point is that nobody has answered the question!! I've seen that pattern since I was a child in the 1950s. Adults would freak out when I asked a simple question or made a simple comment. They would literally freeze, with a look of fear in their eyes. Somehow, I was born with an uncanny knack of uttering the unspeakable.
Nowadays they call it speaking truth to power. When the power lies in social convention, speaking truth shatters it, enabling progress. Those in denial of Maori racism voiced against Maori will studiously continue to evade what has actually happened. It's part of the traditional leftist preference for delusion over reality.
Dennis,
Bossy bossy you.
Huh?? Felt like she was trying to boss me, actually. Can't you recognise push-back when you see it?
Dennis you are very prominent on blogs and that shows you are very opinionated, and 'that is trying to boss' by sheer inference.
Oh, I see. Could say the same for you, eh? Takes one to know one!
Every so often I get just a wee whiff of eau de fascist off ol' franko.
And yet I've often mentioned here that my political praxis has been anti-fascist since 1970. Funny, eh? 😎
Yes it is funny that you are such a fucktard that you don't understand your own ideas.
Leftists thinking centrists are rightists is way funnier. No wonder they struggle to figure out which way is up. Reality is so hard for such dimwits to grasp, as you keep on demonstrating…
You don't seem to even know what you think you are let alone what you actually are. Yesterday you were claiming to be Green, but while the Green Party dose not generally identify as being Left it very certainly does not identify as being Centrist.
You can imagine how the other Greens felt with a shithead like that in the nest. Fly away, grey cuckoo.
I've told the history of that here several times over the past few years. The Values Party schism in the mid-seventies was caused by the leftists and centrists being unable to do consensus.
I was too radical that decade to join either group. I persuaded the Greens to go left in '91 when Jeanette Fitzsimons led a session on the question at our conference. My reasoning was that the Bolger govt had already captured several leading environmentalists, so we had to form a viable alternative. Nobody wanted Labour (due to Rogernomics).
There's always been many in the Green Party who prefer non-alignment, but the conference decision was pre-MMP and we had a binary choice only. Russel Norman's straw poll at the 2015 conference (65 in the session) showed the leftists were half the number who put their hands up for the traditional Green position (neither left nor right). I saw that happen.
The problem with people like you & Sacha is the perennial one of always operating from the position of ignorance, while pretending to know stuff. Sad the way the leftist belief system makes many adherents delusional.
and yet it is
@sacha
He likes to pretend that he has some significant history with the Greens but from what he has said on here it seems that had some involvement in the very early years but then left as he was not a good fit at all. The crap that he has talked today about 'race' would have gone down like a lead balloon both then and now, as would most of his ramblings.
@pat
Is your reply to me?
Yet they are Left or Centrist??
yet they are centrist…as are their voter base…a more middle class party would be hard to find…their one saving grace is in danger of disappearing altogether.
@Pat
The Greens cannot be Centrist as their policies are more Left than Labour's. Winston is Centrist and he is currently fucking up most Green policy objectives.
Centrist does not mean "middle class" and Left does not mean exclusively working class. Karl Marx was very middle class for fucks sake.
The Greens come to the same place as the Left on social policy, they just get their by a different route.
"The Greens cannot be Centrist as their policies are more Left than Labour's."
Are they?..and even if they are Labour are hardly 'left' as they subscribe to neoliberalism…as stated the Greens are , and are supported by the middle class as their voter demographic displays…but you keep telling yourself otherwise, it may come true one day
To explain it another way, when Greens say they are not Left or Right they mean that they don't really fit on that spectrum. Centrism fits on that spectrum, right in the middle of it.
@Pat
The Greens have had a policy for Capital Gains Tax longer than Labour and still do. The Greens are responsible through their agreement for the welfare changes announced today. I can't be fucked giving you more examples but there are many. You can go to the relevant websites and compare.
Yes Labour are not as left as they once were, the Greens are further left, if measured on that spectrum, like i said. Left and Right are only relevant to the context so in NZ Parliamentary Politics today Labour are still left of centre.
And also like i said Centrist does not mean middle class. Have you not heard of Karl Marx? There are huge numbers of lefty middle class people. There is also a significant number of working class people who vote National.
Karl Marx?…wasnt he the brother that couldnt act?
"He likes to pretend"
Yep, a whole lot of figjam pretension.
I have ignored much of the Greens nonsense and voted for them the past 3 elections for one reason only, climate change…if they fuck this opportunity up they will never see my vote again….the question you have to ask yourself is how typical am i?
@Pat
It will be Winston who fucks the Climate Act if anybody. The Greens could bring the gummint down over it, but that would lead to a hugely messy election and probably a Nact led gummint.
No you are not typical of a Green voter. There is about 6% of the vote that is core Green. After that they mostly take votes from Labour. When labour could not find an effective leader people walked to the Greens, and then back again when they finally did.
lf i have voted Green the previous 3 elections im part of that core vote…you cannot know how typical my attitude is…and nor can the party…time will tell.
@Pat
When i say 6% are "core Green voters" i mean voters who support the Green Kaupapa. By saying I have ignored much of the Greens nonsense and voted for them the past 3 elections for one reason only, climate change you are making it very clear that you are not a core Green voter.
I have voted for them in every election where they have been an option as i have always supported most of their policies.
oh dear you are truly delusional…the Greens received approx 6.3% of the vote last election , or 162000 party votes….whats membership?..id suggest significantly less. probably around 10% of that figure….thats your Green Kuapapa, not the votes.
@Pat
Had you considered that you might be part of the 0.3%.
The Greens peaked at i think 12.6% in the polls and that was directly after Metiria's speech. They picked up some lefty vote on the back of that. Then Metiria lost control of the narrative and Ardern became Labour leader and went hard on Climate Change, Fresh Water and Child Poverty. 4-5% (percentage points) went back to Labour and 1-2% of swing voters got the frights. The Greens dropped back to mostly their core vote.
If you think you can sort Climate Change without caring about people then best you buy a gun. You will need it. France has started down that road.
Don't gnosis all that funny franko.
Don't know about 'facist', but this lefty’s noticed franco’s rather fond of labels.
Dennis
Ask Willie Jackson; he's is the self appointed expert in determining who is or is not Maori.
Furthermore you could ask him what methodology he uses to make such a determination.
Is Hone Harawira Maori?
|Is Willie Jackson Maori?
Of course they are, 100 percent of the time.
In my opinion Paula Bennet is Maori when it suits her, and not when it doesn't.
That is, she plays on her heritage when there is a political advantage to be made from it. But mostly ignores it.
Paula Bennet raises the objection that being Maori is not defined by being able to speak Maori.
And she is right.
And I know that for many with all the will in the world, it can prove to hard to pick up the reo, especially if you have been raised exclusively in the Pakeha tradition.
Bennet has a point there.
But for anyone who ever wanted to get in touch with their Maori Heritage, surely Paula Bennet has had more than enough opportunity to learn Te Reo, that is, if she wanted to.
I mean, despite being in a relatively well paid job, (opposition MP), with relatively little to do and able to set her own agenda. And presumably, with the pick of professional support, able and willing to walk her through it. (If she chose to avail herself of it) has she ever tried to learn the language?
Has she ever taken the time, has she even ever made the effort?
I think if she did, it would be the making of her.
"Deputy Prime Minister Winston Peters has been called upon to lead the war against killer robots." What, harangue them to death??
"Mary Wareham, advocacy director of the Arms Division of Human Rights Watch, is leading the global campaign to ban fully autonomous weapons… Wareham said New Zealand is the only country in the world to have a Minister for Disarmament and Arms Control, referring to Peters. Asked if the world needs Peters to lead the war on killer robots, Wareham responded: "Certainly. I think he would be an excellent leader.""
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/05/winston-peters-called-upon-to-lead-war-against-killer-robots.html
Well, okay, Aotearoa leading the way is excellent, but Winston probably ought to delegate the task to Arnie – who knows the scene inside-out. He said he'd be back, eh? Now's the time!
Wtf? Haven't they seen those Terminator movies? A war against killer robots is a terrible idea! Humans are squishy and easily disabled, no match for robots at all. Wouldn't it make more sense to just not build the killer robots in the first place?
"The Justice Select Committee is currently considering a bill to establish the Criminal Cases Review Commission (CCRC), which would review convictions and sentences and decide whether to refer them to the appeal court. Currently, if someone believes they have suffered a miscarriage of justice they can apply to the Governor-General, who seeks advice from the Minister of Justice, for exercise of the Royal prerogative of mercy that can be used to grant a free pardon or to refer a conviction or sentence back to an appeal court."
So a less-paternalistic option. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/112421737/mps-urged-to-not-appoint-judges-to-commission-for-miscarriages-of-justice
"Nigel Hampton QC, forensic science consultant Dr Anna Sandiford and investigator Glynn Rigby, submitted for the New Zealand Public Interest Project. They endorsed the idea of a Commission, but urged caution with appointing judges and suggested adding a provision to allow an appeal after death. In their experience miscarriages of justice usually revolved around poor or inadequate investigation, forensic science, legal defence and sometimes overzealous prosecutors."
I'm pleased to see this group lobbying for a body more representative of the public. The legal establishment has often victimised people in the past. I first suggested a public accountability mechanism in 1991 when I wrote the second draft of the Greens justice policy, as convenor of their justice policy working group. Andrew Little's proposal is a weaker alternative, but it will improve the current system. Keeping the judges out of the review group would serve the public interest, but allowing one or two to participate as advisors could also work well.
A USA Judge who did much to limit miscarriages of justice and undertook legislation that advanced the rights of the poor, black community, has just died. I hadn't heard of this great man so I am passing on his obituary so those who care for what he did can honour Judge Damon Keith's achievements and we can seek to emulate them.
https://www.metrotimes.com/news-hits/archives/2019/04/28/detroit-judge-damon-keith-who-coined-democracy-dies-in-the-dark-dead-at-96
OMG plant based beef has arrived!
Gluten, soy and GMO, and most importantly meat free burgers are on sale from 7 May at BF 🙂 I can't wait to try it out. Don't think I'll be able to totally eliminate meat (on a keto diet) but every bit counts.
Now if only we could get rid of packaging.
There's no need for meat-free burgers in NZ. Much of our livestock is grass-fed on land that wouldn't be suitable for growing crops anyway. Or should be…
Business news on Radionz this morning. Investors very interested in new food non-meat business.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48110704
Is plant burger firm Beyond Meat really worth $1.5bn? The US firm, which counts actor and environmentalist Leonardo DiCaprio among its investors, will now offer its shares at between $23 and $25.
The decision to increase the price from the original range of $19 and $21 indicates strong demand for the shares.
But Beyond Meat is loss-making and does not know when it will report a profit.For its most recent financial results for 2018, Beyond Meat said losses hit $29.9m, slightly below the previous year but above a $25.1m loss in 2016…
Beyond Meat is one of a number of so-called "unicorn" companies – which are privately-backed firms worth $1bn or more – to sell their shares to public investors this year.
yes A
And get the BF foods sent by train not by ‘dirty carbon emissions trucks’ please.
While we discuss politics and racism there is 'humanism' to argue for – us against technology and its weaponisation and the increasing trend of technology to destroy our lives, gradually or suddenly.
Dennis F at 4 also refers to this.
https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/388334/mps-urged-to-take-strong-stance-on-killer-robots
And also the denial of rights and robbing of land and livelihood from people inconveniently positioned on land with uses for other people. 19th century the Highland Clearances in Scotland – large scale sheep farming over-turning the people’s smallholding-croft system.
Today one example is Western Papua bandied around to major powers, with Indonesia hosting and a USA? firm mining copper on West Papuan land with reprisals against protest that have resulted in deaths. A seeker of info trying to find truth jailed.
https://www.radionz.co.nz/international/pacific-news/388357/indonesia-jails-polish-tourist-who-met-with-papuan-rebels
The empire does this to their own, what do you think your worth…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEBdA1_JuR0&feature=youtu.be&ab_channel=StatusCoup
I cant reply
@ pshyco milt
Better enjoy it while it lasts . They are rapidly planting the hills killing off our way of life and you grass fed beef
I just watche a vid saying that all methane once its broken down into co2 created from cattle is used to regrow the pasture the cattle grew on . A continuous cyclel that adds nothing new to the atmosphere as long as cattlenumbers dont rise. .
True ? Or bs ?
Keep it simple please
I read that termites produce more methane than the worlds cow herd combined.
I will do my bit for climate change by eating beef, but those bugs, you're all on your own.
A quick google suggests termites worldwide produce around 20 million tonnes of methane per year, around half of which is oxidised before it even leaves the mound.
Whereas cows belch around 150 million tons per year of methane, all of which goes straight into the atmosphere.
So cows are responsible for around 15x more methane than termites.
I'll have to search for the article I read when I'm home from work, as obviously, I wouldn't have mentioned it if I hadn't read it.
I can't find the piece I read the other day, which would have been mainstream and not dubious, but I had a google, too.
I found a few things that were roughly stating the same thing, though some looked dodgy, the like 12 posts to back their questionable science, so I won't advocate for them here.
I'm happy to be corrected by proper scientists and science, so if their consensus is termites aren't heavier methane producers than cows, so be it.
A few sites put the emissions of termites way above the 20 million tonnes figure, but note the mounds and underground networks act as filters.
Either way, I'll still eat meat, but not bug meat.
Yes, eating insects or larvae is all well and good, but it's not for me.
edit: unless they’re processed AF and look/taste/feel like fillet steak.
Yeah, nah, I'd rather eat that fake crap in the supermarket which costs twice as much as cow mince but with only half the flavour… Or look at rabbit, dog and cat as a cheaper, tasty alternative.
One thing that revolted me about soylent green was that they took actual meat and made it taste like tofu and lentils.
Oh, and the cannibalism, of course…
I guess even the veggos need help to eat all their greens.
The pigs are still gonna be in trouble though. I'm only gonna give up bacon when they pry it out of my cold dead jaws.
Cats- nah. Turning sunshine into protein in plants is horribly inefficient. Taking another step and running that plant material through an animal to make meat protein just compounds the inefficiency. Taking yet another step and running animal protein through an obligate carnivore to produce slightly different animal protein compounds the inefficiency yet again.
But there are so many of them in the hood, free range meat and all that.
The birds would thank you.
Agree about bacon, but I don’t eat it myself any more – Been called a pig so many times it’s like cannibalism.
Yeah, I can't quite get up any enthusiasm for eating invertebrates either.
While I eat very little meat, I really can't be arsed with the effort and planning needed to get the full complement of nutrients needed from a fully vege diet. But I'll be quite happy to eat vat-grown animal cells processed into burgers and sausages and mince.
I can't quite get up any enthusiasm for eating invertebrates either.
I had a really yummy prawn curry last night. Does that count?
Ewww. Prawns inhabit the same ecological niche in the sea that cockroaches do on land. Or is that lobsters? I forget. Not doing filter-feeders either.
Hmm. the prawn thing is bringing me around to the idea. "Cockroaches: prawns of the basement". "Land prawns", maybe?
They did it with canola oil.
All the slum lords would be kicking their tenants out to maximise the six legged growth in their investments.
Or listing them on the flats chattels list…
Actually, fair point. If cockroaches had a prawn texture, I might try them as long as they were peeled, de-legged and decapitated.
But locusts deep fried onna stick would be a bit of a stretch
In this curry they just had the tails still on. It is a little off-putting when they still have a face.
Thinking about it (close to dinner time, after all), I've squished many a land bug, and none of them looked like raw prawns on the inside. Unless the goey innards turn solid when cooked, like an egg does?
@Andre – See above lol
Allien how can eating meat be good for climate change?
That just encourages raising more Cattle doesn't it?
Im happy to take a steak or burger for the team to get rid of all those cows, but veggies and veganauts, you animal lovers, if you plan to get rid of all the cows, are you happy to pull the trigger? And if you're not hypocritical about it, ignoring the obvious cognitive dissonance, why can't I eat what you slaughter?
I think Al0on was being faecetious cleany.
Currently the methane concentration in the atmosphere is around 1900 ppb. Prior to the early 1800s it was very steady at around 700 ppb. The extra methane is responsible for somewhere around 1/4 to 1/3 the global temperature rise since the 1800s, and it's all due to human activities of various kinds, including vastly increasing the global numbers of ruminant livestock.
Yes, it's true that methane oxidises to CO2 and water in the atmosphere, with a half life of around 8 to 12 years. (Half life means every molecule emitted has a 50/50 chance of surviving one half life,and a 1:4 chance of surviving two half lives, 1:8 chance of surviving 3 etc). But while that molecule of CO2 exists in the atmosphere, it is over 100 times more effective at trapping heat then the CO2 molecule it will oxidise into.
The relatively rapid decay of methane means there's a fairly good "bucket with a hole in it" analogy for thinking about methane concentration. Imagine a bucket with a hole in it, and a tap filling it with water. The water flowing in represents the methane we're dumping into the atmosphere, the height of the water in the bucket represents methane concentration in the atmosphere, and the water flowing out represents methane getting oxidised to CO2 and water in the atmosphere. The flow of water out of the hole is a bit responsive to the water level, it flows a bit faster with a high water level, a bit slower with a low water level.
Things were fairly well in balance up to around the 1800s at a fairly low tap flow, and a fairly low level in the bucket, and a low outflow. But when we turned the tap up by finding and burning fossil fuels and increasing agriculture all across the world, the water level rose dramatically. A big part of that turning the tap up was hugely increasing numbers of ruminant livestock. Now, if we choose to turn down the tap a bit, by decreasing ruminant numbers and/or finding ways to reduce methane emissions from ruminants, then the level of water in the bucket/methane in the atmosphere goes down, and the extra global heating reduces.
Yep and stop using vehicles with internal combustion engines and oil derivatives to make tyres, so rail with steel wheels and electric locomotives is our future.
What is it with you that every topic needs to somehow get turned to trains? Was your childhood spent desperately wanting a train set to play with and you never got one for Christmas?
Some 'love' trains, others prefer critiquing those with a bee in their bonnet.
Takes all kinds…
No Cleangreen wanting trains is because of a large part of adulthood petitioning the government to grow some brains, and do the transport thing in a way that is sustainable and provides amenities that Vogel realised in early colonial times..
If you took any real interest in what people on this blog are really on about apart from just a way to keep you from ennui you would know this. I think you come from the USA and no doubt things are different there.
You don't get anything done in NZ unless you are prepared to keep on about it for a couple of decades. If you ever want anything done that is good for the country Andre, don't ever think that you will get it for Christmas because Santa will see how good and right you are. Down here in the Southern Hemisphere you have to make sure that you keep asking because your notes to Santa often get mislaid.
Wags asked about methane cycling in and out of the atmosphere and cows as a part of that cycle. Termites and methane is clearly a closely related topic. So WTF is the story with hijacking the thread to go completely off-topic to trains? It makes trying to follow the original topic and related topics very disjointed.
Especially when it's so easy to just start a new separate thread about trains. Nobody is going to object to that. But thread hijacking is a really good way to get people's backs up.
You said Andre: Now, if we choose to turn down the tap a bit, by decreasing ruminant numbers and/or finding ways to reduce methane emissions from ruminants, then the level of water in the bucket/methane in the atmosphere goes down, and the extra global heating reduces.
That caught Cleangreens attention because he always reads your good comments, and then he thought of other ways to help the CC count of whatever go down plus the extra global heating reducing, and then he put in the bit about how using trains would be beneficial for that. So all quite easy to follow when you see the activist mind at work.
Trains to Gisborne and the usefulness they will have towards saving fuel and carbon credits and so on are top of the bill for Cleangreen and rightly so being more important than lots of things we discuss.
And because we have to say everything to NZ politicians and planners a thousand times before they ever hear of the idea, Cleangreen is just bringing the count up.
Because trucks are driving past his house and stirring up dust. If I remember correctly a quarry opened up down the road from where he lives.
Being an older retired gentleman this is no doubt driving him nuts which are leading to the never-ending pro trains anti-truck ranting.
What is it about trains vs trucks?
In no particular order: energy efficiency for moving goods up and down this skinny country
less diesel pollution from the electrified part of the rail network,
no rubber compound pollution from trains,
the trucking industry subsidised by the rest of us to pay for the damage the trucks do to roads,
trucking industry being poorly paid, hardly unionized and often exploitative of its workers,
the damage done to other motorists when colliding with a truck.
I am sure there are a few more.
Nothing to do with wanting a train set.
Those are all good arguments to use in a thread about transport modes. But what is their relevance in a thread about methane cycles and cows?
"Another visit from the thread purity police, lol." – yes, it's a thing.
Events seem to conspire to derail my life – why should a blog thread (on Open Mike) be any different?
Someone else will have commented (over the years), but why is it "Open Mike" (< 2 million Google matches) rather than "Open Mic" (> 17 million Google matches)? English/US difference?
[Agree that ‘thread derailing’ is poor etiquette, so apologies for derailing the derail, just for a bit of fun.]
The thread's all over the place now, nobody's gonna give a shit anymore.
Had just finished work and had a cantankerous manager have a crack.
I picked up a touch of snark in yr comment and that was what I was responding to.
To draw a long bow, those cows are generally about 'coz A, the are dairy and their milk leaves by truck or B, they are beef cattle and their protein leaves by truck.
You can't have your methaney livestock in isolation.
Gee, can't we just go back to the good'ol days and just walk those cows to the nearest train?
sounds like a win win to me.
Good info but you didnt answer the question .
Remember, the (primary) problem is heat absorption. Because methane is 20 times more greenhousey than CO2 that part of the cycle increases global warming.
But also, some fertiliser comes from fossil sources, so reintroduces more carbon compounds into the atmosphere in addition to the cycle.
And lastly, there's the "what was the land used for previously" question: burning the rain forest to make a cattle farm releases most of the carbon that was sunk into tree mass.
So the idea of "continuous cycle" is true to a point, but contributions to GW are often not as simple as that concept would suggest.
It's a factoid that's been taken out of its relevant context and used to hokey up some special pleading for some that don't want to take responsibility and make changes.
As a standalone assertion, that methane rapidly oxidises to CO2, and that plants take CO2 out of the atmosphere to be eaten by cows that then belch methane back into the atmosphere in a continuous cycle, is correct. And it is also correct that if numbers of cows do not change (and other methane emissions do not change) then methane levels in the atmosphere won't change.
But the context needed to understand the significance of that cycle is very important. First, methane levels now are nearly triple what they were throughout all previous human history, and the methane levels we have now are incompatible with maintaining a livable climate.
The massive increase in ruminant livestock numbers we now have over what was present through all previous human history is a significant contributor to the extremely high methane levels we now have. Reducing ruminant livestock numbers is one of the easiest steps we could take to reduce methane levels.
A quick Google revealed a recent (2019) paper (in a well-respected scientific journal) that suggests scientists still don't know enough to accurately predict trends in atmospheric methane concentrations.
Thank you .
Its important that facts are known and reported as such .
I run into ranting cockies alot and i want to be on solid ground if im going counter their shit .
Numbers i believe have peaked and will head down from here .
I'm guessing you saw the same video I saw, have a read of this comment
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-04-12-2018/#comment-1558161
Fuck this new editor sucks donkey dick, it seems to want to truncate the URL, hopeless.
I'll repost the comment
https://youtu.be/BOJdz_LgDBE
I put up a video about cows, methane and surprise, got accused of being a denialist
I realize this is a touchy subject, but people probably misunderstood where I was coming from, I’m not a scientist or have vast in-depth knowledge of climate change.
I posted a video which I thought was interesting as it was saying something completely different from what I’ve seen in the media and thought I’d put it up here and get feedback.
Asking questions doesn’t make one a denialist.
Now about methane
Methane concentrations have increased from around 775 parts per billion in pre-industrial times to around 1800 now, due entirely to human activities
In the video methane and ruminants(cows) was shown to be a natural cycle where methane was endlessly recycled and nothing changed and everything was kept in balance, obviously if more cattle are added then the amount of methane would increase.
So I went and had a look to see if cow/beef numbers have increased massively in the past 50 years and surprisingly they’ve been rather static.
That also got me thinking pre-industrial there must have been a shit tonne of natural ruminants like Bison, Deer etc. and before them big animals like mammoths which would have been belching out methane by the tonne as well as many wetlands which have been destroyed due to farming
I then came across this article which I found interesting.
https://lachefnet.wordpress.com/2016/07/03/la-chefs-editorial-methane-and-global-warming/
The question the author was trying to answer was why methane levels didn’t start to rise until the industrial age.
According to the author
One reason methane levels remained flat was that cattle and other ruminants (wild and domesticated) lived in intact grassland ecosystems and helped build healthy soils that contain soil microbes called methanotrophs that reduce atmospheric methane (2). Thus maintained grassland ecosystems function as methane sinks, and bank as much as 15% of the earth’s methane (3) Tillage for crops reduces the soil’s capacity to bank methane (as does exposed uncovered soil) plus also releases carbon into the atmosphere (4). Use of synthetic fertilizers also adversely impacts soil methanotrophs (5). Glyphosate in no tilled systems according to industry funded research doesn’t impact soil microbial activity. Though research by other researchers contradicts this industry perspective and details how herbicides like glyphosate adversely change the makeup of soil microbes (6).
If that is the case because all our dairy and beef is grass fed we do not actually have that much of an impact on global methane levels? should we even be paying carbon taxes?
Or if we do shouldn’t it be more vegetable growers and not so much farmers?
The author points the finger more at natural gas and writes.
Meanwhile the methane from fracking and natural gas extraction, transportation and refining, in general, apparently has been underestimated significantly maybe by 5 times or 500% per some recent studies on this topic (9). Not to mention China is massively increasing their use of natural gas and fracking. Coincidentally, the largest increases in methane levels occurred in the 1960’s when natural gas use increased significantly- nearly ten-fold.
Oh god we have seen that shit on here before. I'm sure it was you who posted it too. It is Friday night, give us a break for fucks sake.
Robin Grieve, Act candidate for Whangarei. Act, the only party that has ever argued that buffer zones between GE and organic farms were viable. My suggestion was napalm every 30 seconds.
Yeah Bison and Deer all over Aotearoa. We have had that discussion before also. Mindless stuff.
FYI bwaghorn’s question waas:
<i>I just watched a vid saying that all methane once its broken down into co2 created from cattle is used to regrow the pasture the cattle grew on . A continuous cyclel that adds nothing new to the atmosphere as long as cattlenumbers dont rise. .
True ? Or bs ? Keep it simple please </i>
the problem is that there are multiple sources of methane other than ruminants…a major contributor is the gas industry…which is unrelated to the flow argument and growing
It's never simple bwaghorn – about natural processes.
What do you mean they are rapidly planting the hills killing off our way of life. Do you mean that hillside pastures are being taken up by tree plantations? Pinus radiata?
I understand that the idea of planting widely allowing grazing between once the trees have got established is probably the way to go. But don't know for sure, and if so what species? Is it possible for us to not have pinus but another one kinder to the soil.
Perhaps they should be planting big bamboos – not keeping on the old mousewheel of pinus radiata because – fast and it's what we know. Couldn't there be some R&D money to help with trials for diversification that would be studied and published benefitting all with the information.
This was put to bed with a lot of trials by the old Forest Service in the 70's.
Result – crap trees due to the wide spacing leading to too much branch / canopy and crap pasture due to the shading and water draw by the trees. I think most of the trials were abandoned after less than 15 years, at least the one I had a little to do with at Tikitere was.
That is interesting. So can't put trees in for plantation purposes wide spread. What if the trees were like tagstase? and the animals could both graze grass and the tree, and get shade, and the farmer have some advantage from carbon credits from the tree left in situ? Shade is going to be something that cannot be ignored with the advent of CC becoming hot as hell out there, which would be a variable not high at the time of the trials you referred to.
What do you say about the scenario I put together for possible adoption in the coming years. I guess the old Forest Service in the 70's was still steeped in p.radiata, so different tree – different result perhaps. And edible. And maybe more opportunity for understorey growth with other tree types as I think pinus kills and dries off undergrowth.
Tagasaste would last 5 seconds around cows.
Heard of an area that has lost 100 000 stock units to trees lately . At roughly 1 job per 5000 stock units thats a massive whole in the community. Less kids in schools less partners doing other work . Etc .
That's a giant change of finances. Not much coming in for 20-30 years so who would be parking so much finance in the trees for that long, and they might burn down. Would they get insurance in the first place?
Even when foreign money or aggregation of farms happens, there are managers and workers required. Going into trees like that will certainly take people out of the area.
British local body election results are coming through: https://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-politics-48131095
Professor Sir John Curtice, "polling expert": "There have been some remarkably good figures for the Greens so far, who on average are running at 12% of the vote in the wards that they are fighting, up 5 points on their performance in last year's local elections."
Update from Curtice: "Note that in contrast to the position for Labour, compared with 2015 the Conservative vote is down much more heavily in the south of England (by 8 points) as compared with the north of England (by 2 points). If this pattern continues then Tory losses in the south of England tomorrow could still prove to be quite substantial."
Labour are tanking at the moment, with 2 councils lost and -50 councillors.
They may yet, even though polling at around 30%, win a general election, though it'll be more down to Farrage and his brexit it party bleeding support from the Tories at about 18% nationally.
The lib dems are the nights winners, so far, which may also impede on labour in those 3 way seats they need to win to take a majority at parliament.
“Labour are tanking at the moment…”
Thanks for that BBC link, Dennis.
As of 6 pm (NZ time): So far the Tories have lost 16 councils and Labour three.
Welfare working group report just released. Perfectly reasonable recommendations but given this report only exists as part of the confidence & supply agreement with the Greens and would never have happened otherwise, it's safe to say the vast majority of it will be watered down, delayed or totally ignored, especially the raising of the core benefit rates.
https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/388392/recommendations-on-welfare-system-reform-released
Kat
Keep questioning I think and they won't be able to get away with a watered down version. It sounds so promising that i feel tremendously hopeful. If there is a spark of old Labour to be dug around and watered, it might send up shoots and flower. A thing of beauty and a joy forever.
Beneficiaries who work will be able to earn more before their pay is docked, and the sanction against solo mothers who don't name the father of their children will be scrapped, as the government begins its overhaul of the welfare system.
If bennies can earn much more, then they can get themselves onto the work train when possible. If they can get child sitting during school holidays then they can work that into an earning scheme that will provide those needed shoes, the sports gear, the inclusion of their kids in events at school.
And not naming the father gives them the option of not including a ne'er-do-well into the family life the mother is trying to build. He may know himself but won't have the department after him for money and it is better if the aim is to help the mother to become self-sustaining which is a good role model for the youngsters. Not having a druggie, alcoholic or play-acting father around, will make for stability and will be likely to cut into the stats for domestic violence. There is choice involved as to whether to have occasional visits or not if the father is a degenerate or just unreliable. It is a blow to a child if a visit is set up and the child is ready and waiting, and the father doesn't turn up, or is drunk and disorderly, or is subtly demeaning of the mother’s efforts so the child is left idolising the idea of him as generous, and the mother as being unworthy, and not to be fully loved which would cut into the mutual support that builds good family ties and relationships.
National bereft of effective positive ideas as usual with their usual expressions of negativity. Louise Upston with this one:
"National disagrees with the bulk of the report, which would see fewer obligations imposed on beneficiaries and fewer incentives to get back into work.
They still haven't caught up with womens lib yet. To them it was university women's lib, so they could grab the well-paying jobs when available that came with perks like maternity leave. Ordinary women were neither to share this bounty, or receive the respect due to mothers and partners trying to bring up healthy children, with values of honesty and kindness, with hope for a skilled job at a decent wage. 'Dragging up your kids' is the disparaging view of better-off National looking at lower income people's efforts, and they fund to match and perpetuate that malign view.
@Grey- my view of welfare does tend to be through the illness/disability lens, ie the one that rarely gets mentioned. Incentives to work mean absolutely nothing to a lot of us, but being able to pay for medical treatment without starving, does. That's not to say I'm not interested in what else is happening in general, but we don't tend to rate much of a mention. Besides, it's hard for the bashers to have a direct attack at us so no air time in the media either. I wish I could join you in feeling hopeful. But history dictates that, even if a few positive changes occur over the next few years, as soon as the government changes again- and being NZ it inevitably will- the first thing the Nats will do is attack welfare.
Something slightly amusing though- I noticed Stuff had opened their comments section for this story, so I posted a comment reminding them about their new policy of not opening stories about beneficiaries for comments, and was the temptation to let back in the bashers too much for them? Funnily enough the comments are now closed 🙂
Kay
After reading your and Rosemarys comments i realise that I don't know much about the disability allowance. The welfare net has been set far too high for anyone to be able to fall into it for years. The stupid way that supplements etc were set up should have been adjusted for inflation at the beginning and often were not.
Anyway here is a cute little UK ad from the past about finding work that the increased front line staff might copy.
Jobs for women.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r60n-Bn_8II
We might get something in the Budget but Ms Sepuloni doesn't sound promising. 'Staged implementation' makes me think of a performance of Shakespeares 'All's Well that Ends Well' .
Maybe Robbo will find it in his heart to throw more money at suffering property developers.
Announcement made…https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/112435767/government-to-scrap-benefit-sanction-for-solo-mums-employ-263-frontline-staff-to-help-beneficiaries-find-work
Some improvement…getting rid of the sanction for solo mums who don't name the father and increase the amount earned before abatement but….sweet fa for anyone else.
However, Sepuloni said the Government had decided against a recommended move to increase benefit levels by up to 47 per cent immediately so Kiwis could "live in dignity", and was instead "looking at a staged implementation" of change.
It would also allocate $76.3 million for 263 new frontline staff with the sole "focus of helping more people into meaningful and sustainable work".
So, it looks like more of the arbeit mach frei that the Nats were so fond of.
When I saw the headline you linked to Kay I thought of you. I've said this before, but when Peter graduated from the Supported Living Payment to the Super we were actually able to save a few dollars while living almost full time in our Bus and largely free camping.
That is how much difference there is between the SLP and Super.
Maybe they're saving something for those on SLP as a Budget day headline?
@Rosemary, I'd like to think so but it seems pretty clear they're not going to increase any of the core benefits. The one thing they could do (and it wouldn't upset most of the voters either) is getting rid of that pathetic cap on the disability allowance, $62/week or whatever it is now. It hasn't been lifted for years. That would help a lot without having to roll things over onto TAS etc, minimise paperwork.
My rent is now $30/week more than my core benefit so I'm existing entirely off the supplements which I'm maxed out on, and I doubt I'm alone…
The list of recommendations….
Key recommendations of the welfare expert advisory group:
Seems the government has largely ignored pretty much all of the suggestions.
Mostly interested in happy- clappy headline grabbers.
SSDD
A good Friday afternoon dump – to be expected from this lot, no matter what the party colour.
It will be like a Royal Wedding.
Congratulations to Jacinda Ardern and Clarke Gayford.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/112442442/prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-and-clarke-gayford-engaged
Sweet merciful god.
You sound very religious Gabby. I guess we will all give thanks and prayers for their happy future together, both trying to multi-task, in a balanced modern relationship.
Hopefully next year about 6 months from the election.
And in the next term, another baby please.
We're good for 50% plus and governing with either Greens or NZF on that.
Nice white flowing gown with veil please. Maybe borrow Princess Di's dress.
Awesome…hope they do it MAF stylze!
For a third term, third child.
So much better than any substantial policy at all.
Winston might veto a third child.
Why? He’ll get to be acting PM again. Don’t they have to make the job permanent of three fixed-term contracts?
Do you mean so he can get his parliamentary super? I think Winston is so super that has been allocated long ago. And I think he deserves it as he has kept on making politics look vital and meaningful, at least some;times.
I was referring to employment law. For example:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/employment/news/article.cfm?c_id=11&objectid=10502361
It was tongue-in-cheek 😉
I hope someone's printing commemorative mugs and tea towels.
I hope you're joking.
It's going to happen.
Dollar for dollar Labour donations so he can afford a 2 carat e grade vvs1 rock.
It's all about the rock now people.
God almighty it just may be so.
I may have to go somewhere else for a while.
A tune for a Friday, methinks…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlxBdc2IBJI
Ad the ring has been photographed and looks a simple tasteful affair. Why so sour?
Congrats to them, that's fantastic news.
Yes congrats to Clark and Jacinda. Great news.
I hope they do it their way. Sure they will.
LOL about the PR opportunities re the next election.
Wedding 3 weeks out from election???????
Seriously though, this plus the welfare reforms, very good news.
I hope they go very very far! And news in now Pike River agency think they have
identified what has stopped them re-entering the mine……
Except those pesky housing targets won't be met, the trees won't be planted and those child poverdy markers going the wrong direction isn't anything to be pleased about
PR you got your Slushies! That would never have happened under Judith. A vote for her may endanger that.
Yes targets won't be met, but they are at least doing something. If you care about those things PR don't vote for Judiths crowd, join Labour and put pressure on them to go further.
Of course they're doing something!
They're getting married, showing the leadership position to halt the decline in marriage and civil marriage:
https://i.stuff.co.nz/life-style/weddings/112441324/new-zealand-marriage-continues-downhill-trend
It was unseasonably warm today so i had one, it was pretty good 🙂
They will marry quietly and privately with no fuss. We will probably only find out after the event.
My reason for saying so is because Jacinda and Clarke like to keep their private lives private and that is the way it should be.
Thanks Cinny and Anne, for some decency. I am missing veteuviper and find much of the comment on here a little depressing and very sour, so I am on holiday for a while from the Standard, and I notice a few other absences. Cheers.
Their announcement is a timely distraction from the welfare report.
"Their announcement is a timely distraction" – too cynical?
A spokesman for the prime minister said the pair were engaged over Easter weekend.
Yet, it was conveniently announced today. A day Labour once again fell short on public hope and expectations.
CIA puppet's attempted putsch backed by Trump, Abrams, Pompeo and Bolton fails embarrassingly; U.S. state television (CNN) is flummoxed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8rnWIRrpW0
Win some,
Lose most.
PR you got your Slushies! That would never have happened under Judith. A vote for her may endanger that.
Yes targets won't be met, but they are at least doing something. If you care about those things PR don't vote for Judiths crowd, join Labour and put pressure on them to go further.