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Open mike 03/07/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 3rd, 2022 - 131 comments
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131 comments on “Open mike 03/07/2022 ”

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  1. PsyclingLeft.Always 1
    3 July 2022 at 8:14 am

    A march opposing government control, Three Waters and vaccine mandates was outnumbered by counter protesters in Dunedin.

    Supporters of the Freedom and Rights Coalition (FRC) marched down Princes St at 11am today and were intercepted by over a hundred supporters of AntiFascist Ōtepoti.

    The FRC is known for being associated with Voices for Freedom and the Destiny Church, with one of the leaders being Derek Tait, a Destiny Church pastor.

    https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/freedom-and-rights-coalition-march-outnumbered

    Great to see that these “anti Mandate” protestors show WHO exactly they align with.

    And good on those who showed up against these fuckwits

    • Jenny how to get there 1.1
      3 July 2022 at 8:21 am

      ‘

      Great to see the far right out-numbered.

      That's the way to do it.

      We all need to take note.

      The Far Right have always been a minority.

      It is only when people don't stand up to them that they become powerful.

      As the saying goes, "Evil prospers when good people do nothing".

      • Molly 1.1.1
        3 July 2022 at 11:13 am

        What does 'far right' mean here?

        This expression is the equivalent of 'far left' and about as useful. However, it seems to be present in most critiques lately.

        So, a question:

        In this situation – what makes the concerns of the protestors 'far right'?

        https://www.tfrc.org.nz/

        • weka 1.1.1.1
          3 July 2022 at 4:54 pm

          I would call Destiny Church fundamentalist right myself. Different from the far right. And obviously there are conflicts between the far right/white supremacy and Destiny's large Māori and Polynesian congregation. I consider Tamaki a grifter though, so it's not going to surprise me who he allies with or uses.

          • Molly 1.1.1.1.1
            3 July 2022 at 6:08 pm

            Don't disagree on your assessment of Brian Tamaki or Destiny Church.

            My point is that the website for the movement just lists the issues that many had with the government policies relating to the Covid response, that impacted negatively on individuals/families that were then left without support.

            If there is an issue with the fact that this movement has connections to Destiny Church – and I'm not saying that is not a valid concern – where is the left-wing alternate movement that brought light to these issues, that all were invited to be a part of?

            • weka 1.1.1.1.1.1
              4 July 2022 at 3:23 pm

              ok, that makes sense. Where I would go from that is that we don't have a functional left currently. The left is largely made up of liberals who don't care much about people affected by the mandates, because the liberals are pro vaccine and can't conceive of there being valid issues on the other side.

              We're not that good at conflicts of rights (hence the gender/sex wars instead of working through the issues).

              My position on the mandates is that people should be free to not be vaccinated, and the state should have taken better care of them eg not talk about two NZs, remove WINZ sanctions and so on. The problem the government had was that that kind of kindness would have lowered our vax rate. Rock and a hard place. The solutions aren't in trad politics imo, they're in community pol, by which I mean the people that are willing to work across difference and build bridges should be doing that with all our might currently.

              Otoh, the website is a nicely done piece of propaganda. Of course we want first home buyers to have a chance. But what do they mean by that?

              It basically says: We hate Labour, here are some memes, sign the petition and give us your email address.

              There's not explanation that I can see of each issue. This is concerning because is the farming one about not doing climate transition? Not changing harmful practices? How does that sit with Tino Rangatiratanga? Is TR supported because it gives validity to the free man movement?

              None of this is explained. I don't think the left should be supporting farmers who are against climate action. I do think liberals need to stop with the hating on farmers and do more to work with rural people. Whether that will reach the freedom protestors or not, I don't know.

              • Molly …
                4 July 2022 at 4:07 pm

                Did a long answer, that was lost when I tried to post.

                Will try and recreate… but may run out of energy… wink

                1. Agree, website is light on detail – but, contains no fascist, neo-Nazi or far right messages, therefore I can postulate that there may be many who joined the movement because it was a place that seemed to recognise their situations and offered support. I can also postulate, that they may have found support amongst the movement, particularly amongst others like them, who might not have been politically active beforehand, but found themselves in difficult circumstances due to government policies.

                2. Where were the equivalent spaces provided by the left for this community?

                3. Did we provide such space and listen to the complaints and concerns, or shut down discussions because we believed that the success of the policies required no criticism? On TS individual stories were told, and either ignored, or dismissed. As the discussions closed, the families affected continued to be unsupported – and silenced.

                4. "The problem the government had was that that kind of kindness would have lowered our vax rate. Rock and a hard place. The solutions aren't in trad politics imo, they're in community pol, by which I mean the people that are willing to work across difference and build bridges should be doing that with all our might currently."

                Agree, up to a point. Even when the vaccination target was met and passed, the habit to silence and ridicule was maintained, and is still perpetuated, even as the protections offered by that vaccination programme are diminishing and exposing the limitations of such measures.

                "None of this is explained. I don't think the left should be supporting farmers who are against climate action. "

                On this we disagree. I think we should always work towards engaging with them, which is a type of support. But also offer practical and reasonable support if movement is made towards mitigation efforts. Energy spent fighting, or decisions made to ignore people, have long-term outcomes.

    • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.2
      3 July 2022 at 9:18 am

      Mr Tait denied the allegations that the group were alt-right or fascist.

      He said the claim that the group were racist or white supremacists was ridiculous, as he himself was Māori.

      https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/freedom-and-rights-coalition-march-outnumbered

      Yea how could THAT be ?

      Oh Riiight….

      “The Proud Boys is a far-right, neo-fascist, and exclusively male organization that promotes and engages in political violence in the United States.[6]”

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrique_Tarrio#Proud_Boys

      • Rosemary McDonald 1.2.1
        3 July 2022 at 10:14 am

        Ahead of the event, AntiFascist Ōtepoti spokeswoman Sina Brown-Davis said the march did not represent the values of the wider Dunedin community.

        Mr Tait was close associates with white supremacists and neo-Nazis, she said.

        Mr Tait does make a good point. He is Maori. Not white. A pity the intrepid reporter failed to get a response from Anti -Fascist to Tait's response. (Or perhaps the editor of the ODT assumes the readers are bright enough to see the irony of what Brown-Davis is claiming.)

        Do these fearless Anti Fascists, (fascist definition; Fascism is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society ) who are defending the right of this government to enforce…. unjustified vaccine mandates, to impose (with fuck all in the way of public consultation) a radical new structure to control freshwater, stormwater and wastewater, a radical new structure for spending taxpayers $$$ on Health (which even actual doctors have doubts about) and strict censorship of any questioning or differing voices on all of these issues to the point of implying that 'dissenters' are akin to terrorists.

        Hmm…who are the fascists?

        • RedLogix 1.2.1.1
          3 July 2022 at 10:55 am

          I have a close Maori mate here in Brissy who would vociferously agree with you. This idea that your skin colour, sex, or whatever identity group box you tick, also determines exactly how you think is utter bunk.

        • Robert Guyton 1.2.1.2
          3 July 2022 at 11:03 am

          What is Mr Tait's "good point", Rosemary?

          Do you believe that his being Maori (he claimed) precludes him from being a close associate with "with white supremacists and neo-Nazis,"?

          Just not sure what you are claiming.

          • weka 1.2.1.2.1
            3 July 2022 at 11:31 am

            I'm a little bit confused about that too.

          • Molly 1.2.1.2.2
            3 July 2022 at 11:45 am

            I think that is in response to the untested and irrelevant accusation made by AntiFascist Ōtepoti spokeswoman Sina Brown-Davis: "Mr Tait was close associates with white supremacists and neo-Nazis, she said.".

            Which brings to my mind these three follow-up questions:

            1. Is he close associates with white supremacists and neo-Nazis? Yes/No.
            2. Does this mean that he himself is a white supremacist or neo-Nazi? Yes/No.
            3. Does this mean that the Freedom and Rights Coalition Group is a white supremacist or neo-Nazi group? Yes/No

            I take it that he is responding to both 3. and 2. in that order.

            "Mr Tait denied the allegations that the group were alt-right or fascist.

            He said the claim that the group were racist or white supremacists was ridiculous, as he was Māori."

            (Need to add, the original article is pretty low on actual details and information.)

            • Rosemary McDonald 1.2.1.2.2.1
              3 July 2022 at 12:30 pm

              (Need to add, the original article is pretty low on actual details and information.)

              Thank you for pointing that out. The ODT did actually report on both protest groups. And got a statement from both spokespeople. I'm disappointed they didn't do a back and forth between Brown-Davis and Tait. You know. Dialogue.

              (I've heirloom tomatoes to pot up so I can't hang around here all day…but will catch up with relish later.)

              • Peter …
                3 July 2022 at 12:49 pm

                I too am trying to work out if being a Maori means that Derek Tait can't be a fascist.

                I mean that's like saying he and the groups he supports for 'freedom and rights' can't be responsible for taking away the freedom and rights of others.

                Mr Tait wants publicity? Is there fear giving him that will encourage malcontents and terrorists?

                Regardless of that I am pleased to see him get the headlines he wants. Surely there are many many more in the community who will be disgusted and horrified by his "We know where you live" actions. Let him be known for what he is.

            • Robert Guyton 1.2.1.2.2.2
              3 July 2022 at 12:38 pm

              Molly, the way I read it is: Sina Brown-Davis said that,

              "Mr Tait was close associates with white supremacists and neo-Nazis".

              She didn't say that the group marching in Dunedin were that particular group.

              The "white supremacists and neo-Nazis" Mr Tait allegedly associates with, might be a different crew from those marching.

              It's because of those unknowns that I found Rosemary's comment to be lacking in value and formed in a prejudicial way.

            • weka 1.2.1.2.2.3
              3 July 2022 at 12:52 pm
              1. Is he close associates with white supremacists and neo-Nazis? Yes/No.
              2. Does this mean that he himself is a white supremacist or neo-Nazi? Yes/No.
              3. Does this mean that the Freedom and Rights Coalition Group is a white supremacist or neo-Nazi group? Yes/No

              good questions. I don't have time to dig into it now, will try and come back later. Meanwhile, a starting point,

            • Shanreagh 1.2.1.2.2.4
              3 July 2022 at 2:30 pm
              1. Is he close associates with white supremacists and neo-Nazis? Yes/No.
              2. Does this mean that he himself is a white supremacist or neo-Nazi? Yes/No.
              3. Does this mean that the Freedom and Rights Coalition Group is a white supremacist or neo-Nazi group? Yes/No

              Many times during the protest at Parliament the saying that if three people sit down with a Nazi it means that four Nazis people are talking was often quoted…..words to that effect. This builds on the oft stated quotes from many places and philosophers about being the company you keep.

              http://tinyurl.com/2r6c385u

              Derek Tait is representing a organisation and it is fair to judge him by the company that organisation keeps/kept. By its past actions and using these as a guide to future actions (this is also Human Resources Management 101) we can judge what might happen in the future.

              I have no need to enquire any more deeply than the face his group turned to the people of NZ and the world at the time of the protest at parliament to know that.

              Suffice it for me to know that the organisations he represents do not have the interests of the country, our country NZ, and its peoples at the forefront but are laying a kinship to organisations such as those who were supplied with money and materiel in similar convoy movements overseas. The organisations involved have been very loathe to advise of their overseas backers.

              I feel no need to have to ask myself who are these people, what do they represent every time they appear. It is clear what they represent, you just need to look at the sleaze- & slime- ball followers they amassed during the protest.

              None of these people represent me or those I care for, love and mix with any more than Oswald Mosely represented those of my family resident in Britain in the 1930s/40s/50s.

              I think that to answer all your questions it is sufficient to look at those who grouped themselves with VFF & TFRC at the time of the protest at parliament.

              I am not aware of any official repudiation of any of the 'playmates' of VFF & TFRC and so I think it can be taken as read that if there were 'white supremacists and neo-Nazis' present at parliament and there was no move to evict them, then they (VFF/TFRC) are supporters of, and are supported by, white supremacists and neo-Nazis.

              If we tuck this away it provides a useful way to look at the groups' later actions. I think they are fascists and those appearing against them in Dunedin are correctly labelled as anti Fascists (noting that in typical NZ fashion of doing the unexpected the AFs did a spirited rendition of YMCA with dance moves as part of their protest.)

              • Molly …
                3 July 2022 at 2:48 pm

                Shanreagh, thanks for the reply.

                But if words like 'white supremacists' and 'neo-Nazis' are going to be thrown around, I would like to have evidence provided at the same time.

                And your addition of 'fascists', being countered with 'anti-fascists' is more of the same. Where is the information here that evidences those claims?

                "If we tuck this away it provides a useful way to look at the groups' later actions. I think they are fascists and those appearing against them in Dunedin are correctly labelled as anti Fascists (noting that in typical NZ fashion of doing the unexpected the AFs did a spirited rendition of YMCA with dance moves as part of their protest.)"

                I am not a supporter of Destiny Church. I am not even a practising Christian, with beliefs in God but a wider view of what their values in practice mean. I am an atheist who nevertheless believes in people's rights to their own beliefs.

                The Freedom and Rights Coalition doesn't ask for membership to Destiny Church or adherence to its doctrines. There will be many who support this movement who are not part of the congregation, but wanted a community that acknowledged their concerns or situation and found it there.

                What part of the stated concerns of the Freedom and Rights Coalition do you find particularly right-wing, neo-Nazi and fascist?

                https://www.tfrc.org.nz/

                • Shanreagh …
                  3 July 2022 at 3:40 pm

                  I think you may have missed the point I was trying to make……

                  You will not find, "I am a fascist or we are a fascist organisation in their manifesto or what appears on the website. The point I am making is that this group has a back story, actually several back stories and we just to find these and reflect on them. So examples of 'by their actions you will know them…..'

                  The first back story is the participation in the protest at parliament. That would be a very troubling set of circumstances to get through/over if I was to meet the group and its policies for the first time. The fact that Destiny church also has a somewhat dubious reputation, as many tithe based churches have would take me much to get over.

                  The third back story is that Destiny Church or their current entity are not, by their actions, good corporate citizens or even good people based citizens and you can see this by their disregard of Christchurch City Council rulings about squatting in parks, parking across access ways and the use of loud speakers. While CCC might be a group of old fuddy duddys, I don't think so, the fact is that it was facing rule/law breaking by this group from before the protest at Parliament. The group ignored laws that by the social contract ie are made for all of us…per constitutional law.

                  I don’t think we have to indulge in goldfish thinking,……we don’t have to think new thoughts about Destiny etc every time they say we should. We can use and reflect on what went before.
                  TFRC is a grouping. We can find out about the grouping by looking at the constituent parts, how various members have been involved in other protests.

                  I don’ think the clothes are any different to what has gone before and what was worn on the previuos outings. In fact I think very little of the groups that were involved in the protest at parliament and by following them I can see how very easy it could have been for the Nazis to get a foothold. Both groups are/were chameleon like in dodging and diving around the concerns of others ie the general populace as it were. The fact that they went to parliament and were prepared to turn a blind eye to lawlessness is indicative. No leadership as a good ploy.

                  • Molly …
                    3 July 2022 at 6:12 pm

                    Shanreagh, once again – thanks for the reply.

                    However, once again, no details. Just repetition of the same.

                    If I am going to call a person a fascist – I want information that I trust that unequivocally demonstrates that name is accurate.

                    If I am going to call a movement fascist – I want the same quality of proof.

                    I don't rely on my dislike of Brian Tamaki, or Destiny Church to fill the gaps in evidence.

                    • weka …
                      3 July 2022 at 6:41 pm

                      Do you accept that Phillip Arps is a white supremacist? or do you need to see something that supports that?

                      Maybe we start with the most obvious and work our way down. I think it's a good idea to establish what the evidence base is. The evidence for Arps is very strong, I would say without a doubt.

                    • Shanreagh …
                      4 July 2022 at 11:33 am

                      Please give me credit……I don't base my views on a simple personal like or dislike though I do accept the visceral shiver down the spine that you sometimes get. Most notably, and this dates me, in Parliament watching Hon Gerald Wall in action during the early abortion debates.

                      All the participants in the parliamentary protest have been around for long enough for me not to trust their appearance in a new set of clothes in the hustings.

                      I also believe in the long quoted view about who you are keeping company with and I made a reference to this earlier on with the views of many philosophers exploring this concept.

                      Derek Tait and his group in whatever iteration they are now pursuing have never, as far as I am aware, sought to distance themselves from the far right, alt right, fascists that shared their 'home and hearth' at the protest. For this reason, the protest itself etc I look at their revivalist tendencies with a skeptical eye.

        • weka 1.2.1.3
          3 July 2022 at 11:38 am

          Māori can be part of groups, or lead them that are adjacent to fascists. We saw that in the parliament grounds occupation. There are important dynamics there to unpack, but simplistic 'he's Māori so he can't be a white supremacist' aren't useful or accurate.

          The problem I see with the ODT article is that they quoted Brown-Davis about FRC being fascist adjacent without actually establishing if that is true. That Tait denied it just tells us that there are two opposing beliefs but we are none the wiser. We know that FFR has those connections, so it's likely that FRC does too, but I'd still like to see what the actual connections are.

          • Just Saying 1.2.1.3.1
            3 July 2022 at 11:55 am

            Can you give an example of a Maori who is part of a group or is lead by white supremacists? Not just slurs on mandate protestors, but a proven example of this phenomenon? Thanks.

            Its worth mentioning that the last TPP action I was a part of was attended by white supremacists complete with flag. So were those opposing the TPP a part of, or led by White supremacists? Because you might be surprised by the groups that were also a part of that action and I think they might be horrified at such an allegation.

            • joe90 1.2.1.3.1.1
              3 July 2022 at 12:15 pm

              People have identified this character as Māori.

            • weka 1.2.1.3.1.2
              3 July 2022 at 12:27 pm

              Can you give an example of a Maori who is part of a group or is lead by white supremacists? Not just slurs on mandate protestors, but a proven example of this phenomenon? Thanks.

              Tait was already given as an example. He is leading a group that is adjacent to white supremacists (according to Brown-Davis).

              At the Parliament protest, there was an unusual mix of protestors, so that we saw Māori and white supremacists side by side. By white supremacists, here I mean the dudes running the social media campaign that has connections with the alt right and fascists in the US. As well as the NZ fascists or proto-fascists at the protests. This is a complex dynamic, but it was well covered at the time. I saw commentary about the impact on poorer Māori communities of the freedom movements etc.

              The main issue for me isn't the protest, it's the inability or unwillingness of the protestors to address the concerns about who they are allying with. I get the dynamics in that too, it's happening with the gender critical movements, and it took too long for the UK left wing gc feminists to respond to accusations of allying with the fundamentalist right in the US (a small number do, most don't). But the issue has to be addressed for the politics to have legitimacy. Rosemary denies it, I'm hoping others here will work through it.

            • Molly 1.2.1.3.1.3
              3 July 2022 at 2:51 pm

              "Its worth mentioning that the last TPP action I was a part of was attended by white supremacists complete with flag. "

              Snap. Mentioned the same down below, and missed your comment here.

              https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-03-07-2022/#comment-1898268

              • Just Saying …
                3 July 2022 at 3:17 pm

                Wow, the Auckland TPP protest too.

                I think you are right that a unique issue-based protest is a bit different.

            • Incognito 1.2.1.3.1.4
              3 July 2022 at 7:40 pm

              The TPP protests were very different and aimed mostly at [the influence of] foreign targets such as foreign governments and corporates rather than being an alleged issue of bodily autonomy, personal livelihoods at stake, and our own democratically elected government as the common enemy.

          • Molly 1.2.1.3.2
            3 July 2022 at 11:56 am

            I can find information about the The Freedom & Rights Coalition quite easily, but not having such luck finding information regarding the AntiFascist Ōtepoti group apart from a couple of Facebook press releases, eg:

            https://www.trendsmap.com/twitter/tweet/1532147592934866944

            so really have no idea what their stated purpose is apart from being "AntiFascist" in some form.

            Do you know of any links to a statement of aims for the group?

            • weka 1.2.1.3.2.1
              3 July 2022 at 12:15 pm

              Haven't looked. I know Brown-Davis from twitter a bit, have seen a few tweets in the past.

              This has some useful info in it

              • weka …
                3 July 2022 at 12:20 pm

                that FB post has references for the claims about Tait. Haven't checked them.

                • Molly …
                  3 July 2022 at 12:30 pm

                  That Facebook post would be more informative if it included a link to the Freedom and Right's Coalition page, to demonstrate what they are accusing them of is based on facts.

                  I consider that to be a necessary part of a counter-protest action, rather than inspiring but ultimately untethered rhetoric.

                  They could do better, unless vagueness is part of their kaupapa.

                  • weka …
                    3 July 2022 at 12:46 pm

                    Did you look at the links?

                    I would guess two things,

                    1. volunteers are short on time
                    2. their own intention was to have presence on the ground, which they achieved.

                    In that sense, I don't think they need to convince anyone else watching from afar. It looked very local to me.

                    • Molly …
                      3 July 2022 at 1:07 pm

                      Yes, I did.

                      Came across the call for action, and then various tweets including one with "… Tait standing underneath something that could be easily mistaken for mock gallows…"

                      If I was looking to attend, I'd want more details than this.

                      But I understand that others may know more just from local acquaintance. My point is, from the outside, it's hard to get an informed perspective, because the information is not out there in straightforward accessible form.

                      Yes, it's volunteers. But it's possible to knock up a free website, in a couple of hours, having an about us page, and a Statement with links to existing Twitter and Facebook social media accounts.

                      Sina Brown-Davis already uses WordPress for her own website.

            • Visubversa 1.2.1.3.2.2
              3 July 2022 at 1:26 pm

              There were a bunch of University students in Dunedin threatening violence against any person who did not sufficiently express their beliefs in Gender Ideology at the beginning of this year. "TERF free Otepoti " also seemed to consist of 1 website.

              • Molly …
                3 July 2022 at 1:45 pm

                Thanks, visubversa.

                (Preliminary searching shows more of the same on social media accounts -high on rhetoric, low on substance.)

              • weka …
                3 July 2022 at 1:50 pm

                I'm sure there are overlaps. But the pushback imo isn't to say don't protest protofascists, it's to point out that GCF aren't fascist.

          • Rosemary McDonald 1.2.1.3.3
            3 July 2022 at 12:21 pm

            Māori can be part of groups, or lead them that are adjacent to fascists. We saw that in the parliament grounds occupation.

            We did? See that at the parliament grounds occupation? I know that is what was claimed…but was it actually proven?

            Because if it has not been proven…then I wish folks would desist from repeating a lie. It won't make it true.

            Again. Here is The True Left being lazy and dishonest and more than a little stupid in thinking that all they need to do is scream "white supremacist", "misongynist", "TERF", "fascist" and all those who question, or goddess forbid oppose, will simply go way.

            (PS. Friends. Maori. Water and environmental activists. Went to the Welly protest and stayed for a few days. Just left here after dropping off meat and returning my big saw. Would tear you (and anyone else) calling them fascists, right wing and white supremacist associates a new one. Not really. They are truly non violent. But they would be perfectly justified in feeling mightily pissed of that people, usually white folks, are so keen to assume that they so gullible as to be sucked in by the KKK.)

            • weka 1.2.1.3.3.1
              3 July 2022 at 12:44 pm

              This misrepresents the issue though Rosemary. I'm not saying the protestors were fascists, right wing and white supremacist associates. I know people that went to Wellington too, and none of them are what I would call fascist adjacent. There were a lot of people at that protest for a range of different reasons. Many were there out of concern about vaccines, government overreach, pandemic response, health sovereignty and so on.

              A lot of my friends locally would have been at the protest if it was held locally.

              Are we clear on this now?

              In addition, there was an obvious and distinct fascist involvement. Starting with one of the most obvious examples was Philip Arps, white supremacist who has history of extreme action against Muslims (he was jailed for sharing the Chch terrorist live stream video). The only reason he wasn't at Wellington was because the police stopped him at Picton after someone reported he was on his way. He stayed at the Picton protest I think, and then maybe the Chch, you can look up the details.

              Just one man you say? He wasn't the only one, but even if he was, he's at the cutting edge of fascism in NZ (the kind that sees actual people shot and killed in their place of worship), and if I was organising a protest I would most definitely be addressing his presence.

              But there was also,

              There was no clear leadership within the protest group,[68] with several groups and activists involved in organising the protest including anti-vaccination groups "Voices for Freedom" and New Zealand Doctors Speaking Out on Science (NZDSOS), conspiracy theorist Brett Power, far right media outlet Counterspin Media, Bishop Brian Tamaki's "The Freedom and Rights Coalition" (TFRC), far right activist Kelvyn Alp, anti-vaccination activist Chantelle Baker, the right-wing New Conservative Party, and the neo-Nazi organisation Action Zealandia.[69][70][71][72][73]

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Wellington_protest

              The issue there is how does one protest alongside the far right? And what responsibilities come with that? Counterspin are far right and proto-fascist, were well funded and had a big influence on the protest. If you work with that, then there's going to be accountability. Denying that it happened isn't being accountable.

              You said the other day that many of the protestors aren't political. That's right, they're naive. What they are doing is a political act, but they don't have good experience with how that works and plays out in the real world. Not being willing to address the fascists in the room is part of that. Pretending it's not happening won't wash. People should stand up in their own mana and address it directly.

              • Sabine …
                3 July 2022 at 1:07 pm

                The man has stated that he does not believe what they do is promoting right wing causes or white supremacy.

                He points to himself as being Maori and bringing his Maori values, understanding and ideas to the demonstration as to why it might be less white supremaci'isty then the little anti fascistas would make us believe.

                What needs to be happening for this comment from a Maori to be taken at face value and accepted fully?

                Or is this a case of accusing a Maori of wrong think and not knowing his place? Are Maori allowed under lefty doctrine to have their own political opinions or are they to behave as a fully owned subsidiary of approved political discourse and political actions as dictated by the current so 'called' left embodied by the Labour and Green Parties?

                As for no debate on any of the things the current government is doing, well this too has backfired it seems. Maybe they should schedule some proper debates where All questions are allowed and no stupid juveniles names get thrown about in order to shut up dissidents.

                • Molly …
                  3 July 2022 at 1:37 pm

                  Agree with this perspective Sabine.

                  Particularly the last:

                  "As for no debate on any of the things the current government is doing, well this too has backfired it seems. Maybe they should schedule some proper debates where All questions are allowed and no stupid juveniles names get thrown about in order to shut up dissidents."

                  • weka …
                    3 July 2022 at 1:43 pm

                    what's that a quote from?

                    • Molly …
                      3 July 2022 at 1:46 pm

                      Sabine's last paragraph in her comment, wink.

                    • weka …
                      3 July 2022 at 1:48 pm

                      lol, ta. I thought it was Tait or someone, because who would be daft enough on TS of all places to argue that there is some kind of suppression of debating the government 😉

                    • Sabine …
                      3 July 2022 at 3:57 pm

                      That quote is from me,

                      And my comment got absolutely nothing to do with the Standard and the posters here, but the dears of the AntiFascist Ōtepoti Group, as they are the ones leveling these claims of wrong think, wrong speak, and wrong association of a bloke who feels strongly about this issue, thinks he has a right to say something about it and who happens to be Maori. I guess, he is the wrong kind of Maori for the Anti Fascist Ōtepoti group. Maybe he needs some re-education on how to be a good Maori.

                      A lot of this three water debacle, or self id for that matter rests on the inability of our current government to give a fuck about what the people of this land actually think and want. And by people i mean not the pencil pushers in councils and NGO's that depend on governments largesse to pay rent and bills, but the rest of this country populations that may not be so easily convinced.

                  • Incognito …
                    3 July 2022 at 2:04 pm

                    That sounds naïve to me, so can you please explain how the government should “schedule some proper debates”? How would this work practically and how is this not addressed currently in a way that points to some kind of omission of duties & responsibilities of the government. I’m puzzled as to why you’d think that the onus is on the government.

                    • Molly …
                      3 July 2022 at 2:17 pm

                      When concerns or questions were raised regarding the lockdowns and vaccine programmes, there were issues that could have been addressed and accommodated for with the implementation.

                      Instead, every identified fault was ignored and treated as anti-government rhetoric. Eventually, we ended up with an anti-government movement. Perhaps, in part, because those that were impacted directly in various ways found – when they went looking – that their particular circumstances were not considered worthy of support.

                      I've had close relatives, who worked in the MIQ facilities that had their concerns about the running of those facilities ignored, and not even acknowledged, let alone considered and perhaps used to improve outcomes and efficiency.

                      Many have posted the hard choice for individuals with medical advice not to continue with the vaccination schedule, choosing between possible significant health impacts or losing their job, because the process for exemptions seemed to be very conservatively assessed. There were no financial support systems put in place for those people.

                      The PM, herself, in a rare moment of lacklustre PR, spoke of two categories of NZers being acceptable. Taking advantage of a political climate that vilified a group within the team of five million, without needing to justify that position.

                    • Incognito []
                      3 July 2022 at 2:50 pm

                      Sure, that’s one interpretation of events and the situation we’re in, but it doesn’t answer the question. It also starts off at a position of finger-pointing and it almost sounds like some (here) want Government to do penance and correct their errors and mistakes (e.g., an apology). The dynamics and narratives I have observed here on TS don’t bode well at all for a resolution, which also means that anti-government sentiments, attitudes, and narratives will continue and possibly become stronger over time, even though most mandates and MIQ have mostly ceased, particularly with the election campaigns gearing up. People have to be careful what they wish for.

                    • Molly …
                      3 July 2022 at 3:03 pm

                      @Incognito.

                      I don't consider that I'm anti-government. But I am someone who has concerns about many of the governments stated intentions, and critical of their policies that I don't think address important issues.

                      " It also starts off at a position of finger-pointing and it almost sounds like some (here) want Government to do penance and correct their errors and mistakes (e.g., an apology)."

                      Not my perspective, or my idea of a solution, but I don't think critique of policies and implementation necessarily equates to anti-government positions – even though for some it might lead there.

                      Where do you see the platforms for those who are equally critical of left and right wing government policies, if they think they can be improved in intent or implementation?

                      I always thought TS was one such platform. Still do.

                      It seems you have some concerns. I'm hoping that those concerns are found to be without merit. The solution can't be to stop expressing dissent.

                    • Incognito []
                      3 July 2022 at 8:03 pm

                      Never said that [I think] you are anti-government. That said, not many would acknowledge let alone openly admit on a public forum that they are anti-government (or perhaps more to the point, that they are anti-this-government) just as Shanreagh @ 3:40 pm (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-03-07-2022/#comment-1898284) said that fascists will not declare this on their websites.

                      I 100% agree with you that critiquing of government per se does not equate to being anti-government. In fact, it could be the exact opposite, i.e., constructive criticism for the betterment of government and our society. Obviously, it depends on the critique and the goal and/or agenda. Plenty of government critics and criticism here on TS, IMO.

                      Yes, indeed, I have growing concerns and I believe with good reason. However, expressing the issue(s), as one sees it, is only the first step of a process that can to improvement and moving forward. Liturgically regurgitating binary negatives is entrenching status quo or sliding backwards and is not an invitation to genuine engagement and healing/closing rifts. I often wonder why some seem determined to rip off any plaster and keep the wounds fresh and bleeding so that they cannot and will not heal.

                • weka …
                  3 July 2022 at 1:42 pm

                  He points to himself as being Maori and bringing his Maori values, understanding and ideas to the demonstration as to why it might be less white supremaci'isty then the little anti fascistas would make us believe.

                  Where does he say that?

                  Him denying the connections is like Luxon saying he's anti-abortion but won't ever act on that. You can choose to believe either of them, so the question becomes, why would you? I don't trust Destiny any more than I trust National. Based on who they are, their values, and how they act.

                  • Incognito …
                    3 July 2022 at 1:58 pm

                    Yup, it’s a variation of plausible deniability. In any case, people hear what they want to hear and they’ll fit it into their narratives as it suits them. We all do it, to some degree, and it cuts both ways. Paradoxically, the complications arise when trying to ‘simplify’ things into neat binaries and presumably non-overlapping categories. There are obvious links with intersectionality.

              • Molly …
                3 July 2022 at 2:05 pm

                There were always some neo-Nazi types at TPPA protests in Auckland. Don't know what their motivation was, but saw the same people more than once.

                Protests about government policies that have had mutiple impacts, in multiple ways on diverse groups of people are always going to have a really diverse group of people within them. There may be some political naivety in the movement that can be identified, but that does not mean that there are those within it that don't have valid concerns that were ignored and not addressed.

                I have recently watched a Netflix film "The Best of Enemies" about the true life story of a friendship formed between a leader of the KKK, and a blacks rights activist by very skillful bringing together of these two groups to work toward a common goal:

                The Best of Enemies – IMDb

                Bill Riddick, who organised what is referred to as the Durham "charette" is an exemplar to me of great 'left' inclusivity skills.

                But current left-wing critique often resorts to the same actions as the right wing: listening to the few favoured ‘experts’. smearing by association and name calling those who disagree or raise concerns.

                I may be woefully uninformed in this regard, but, if the left-wing in NZ does possess these or similar skills, it is not readily apparent.

                https://urbanfaith.com/2019/04/best-of-enemies-interview-with-bill-riddick.html/

                • weka …
                  3 July 2022 at 2:51 pm

                  There were always some neo-Nazi types at TPPA protests in Auckland. Don't know what their motivation was, but saw the same people more than once.

                  Sure. But there is a difference between a progressive protest where a few neo-Nazi types turn up and a reactionary protest where the alt right and far right are neck deep in what is going on. How are you factoring Counterspin and their involvement into your analysis?

                  The problem with Alps trying to get to the protest is that he is well known to support ideologoical murder, and there were people on the parliament grounds talking about executing MPs. Maybe the ones at the protests were blowhards. Or maybe they were egged on by the thought of achieving what the Capitol attackers didn't and actually taking over and killing people. Caution is warranted here, and the peace and love contingent were negligent in not addressing this. I'm hoping this is inexperience rather than collusion. But I have at least one friend who won't read MSM because they think it's all lies and they are most likely getting their information from SM that has heavy confirmation bias built in (intentionally and manipulatively). Which takes us back to Counterspin.

                  • Molly …
                    3 July 2022 at 2:55 pm

                    My analysis is completely predicated on the fact that having accurate details in order to come to a conclusion is required. Every thing else is speculation, and should be acknowledged as such.

                    Supposition either way, is equally questionable.

                  • felix …
                    3 July 2022 at 4:39 pm

                    "Sure. But there is a difference between a progressive protest where a few neo-Nazi types turn up and a reactionary protest where the alt right and far right are neck deep in what is going on. "

                    Pretty strange use of "progressive" and "reactionary" there.

                    Any honest reading of the protest would acknowledge that it was a protest against the mandates (ie against people losing their jobs and losing access to public institutions generally for not submitting to a medical treatment), despite attracting a wide range of people (and obviously protests against policies that affect a wide range of people are going to attract a wide range of people)

                    What exactly about that is reactionary rather than progressive in any sense that wouldn't also apply to the tppa protests? Or any other protest for that matter? Were the protests against the introduction of student loans in the 90s "progressive" or "reactionary" protests, and why?

                    Second question, how many neo-nazis do you really think were present at the anti-mandate protest? Would I need both of my hands to count them?

                    • Incognito …
                      3 July 2022 at 6:20 pm

                      Second question, how many neo-nazis do you really think were present at the anti-mandate protest? Would I need both of my hands to count them?

                      That’s not the right question to be asking, IMO, because it is predicated on the assumption that only real in-person presence matters and we know that this was inextricably linked to virtual on-line presence, which likely had a much wider and farther reach and thus did more damage. While the physical occupation of Parliament grounds is over, the on-line fights are still ongoing.

                    • weka …
                      4 July 2022 at 12:54 am

                      Any honest reading of the protest would acknowledge that it was a protest against the mandates (ie against people losing their jobs and losing access to public institutions generally for not submitting to a medical treatment), despite attracting a wide range of people (and obviously protests against policies that affect a wide range of people are going to attract a wide range of people)

                      What exactly about that is reactionary rather than progressive in any sense that wouldn't also apply to the tppa protests? Or any other protest for that matter? Were the protests against the introduction of student loans in the 90s "progressive" or "reactionary" protests, and why?

                      How it was done. A lot of the protest was people reacting and not stopping and doing the mahi of developing solid thinking and strategy on the issues. I don't think that is necessarily bad, emotion and gut instinct can be a powerful force. And yes, sometimes left wing protests are reactionary too.

                      But even in the conventional sense of the term, it could be understood as reactionary against the pandemic response and trying to stop something that was being done for the collective good. My own feeling about the mandates is they were a necessary evil and that Labour could have done them without such disdain for the people that chose to not vaccinate. This cementing of division is unforgivable, and thus the reaction was both understandable and had legitimacy. I've also said that I'm pissed that it was this protest and not climate action that occupied parliament grounds for 3 weeks. This is a great failing for the left, one of the greatest.

                      What is being questioned here is why the people in the protest didn't push back against the far right elements.

                      Second question, how many neo-nazis do you really think were present at the anti-mandate protest? Would I need both of my hands to count them?

                      Dunno. Actual neo-nazis, not many. People aligned with white supremacy at some level, more of those. People who will jump to the far right if the time comes, probably quite a few*. Those men wanting to storm the parliament and execute MPs, whatever their personal feelings about the mandates, that's something else going on.

                      *and, of course, there were lots of other people with different beliefs and values.

                • weka …
                  3 July 2022 at 2:57 pm

                  Protests about government policies that have had mutiple impacts, in multiple ways on diverse groups of people are always going to have a really diverse group of people within them.

                  Yes. And, this is a new thing in NZ. I've not seen the likes of it before. I'll put at least some of that down to the internets and the ways that impacts on organising.

                  There may be some political naivety in the movement that can be identified, but that does not mean that there are those within it that don't have valid concerns that were ignored and not addressed.

                  Of course. I have sympathy for some of the Wellington protest and I'm on record here about the problems with the mandates and how people have been marginalised. This isn't a binary argument.

                  Assuming some of the protest was on point, and they were naive, why are there still people arguing that there was no protofascism present. This is extraordinary from politicised people. This is a dynamic that needs to be discussed. If people want to argue it was all legit, then that's a huge problem. There were people threatening to kill MPs. The far right were running massive sm campaigns far outstripping anything the NZ MSM was doing.

                  My point here is that it’s possible to argue that there are legitimate political concerns re mandates etc, at the same time as pointing out the problems with the protests. There’s nothing in my words today that says that there were no legit politic needs, so why are people talking to me as if I have said that.

                  • Molly …
                    3 July 2022 at 3:13 pm

                    "Assuming some of the protest was on point, and they were naive, why are there still people arguing that there was no protofascism present. This is extraordinary from politicised people. This is a dynamic that needs to be discussed. If people want to argue it was all legit, then that's a huge problem. There were people threatening to kill MPs. The far right were running massive sm campaigns far outstripping anything the NZ MSM was doing."

                    I'm not arguing it was all legit. Just that, despite the presence of some people with fascist tendencies, that there were others there, who wanted their concerns listened to. The organisation itself doesn't have neo-Nazi, right-wing or fascist statements on their website. So, it is understandable that people unaffiliated with those ideas joined the movement and the protests or specific reasons aligned with the published statements.

                    Where is the public discussion on those concerns for those other people happening? I'm not aware of their stories being told on mainstream media, or addressed by our politicians or government departments.

                    Are they going to have every attempt to raise those issues dismissed by accusations of fascism, due to the presence of a faction during the Parliament protests? Due we have evidence that all of those protesting invited them as a Fascist group to Parliament grounds?

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      3 July 2022 at 7:37 pm

                      "Due(sic) we have evidence that all of those protesting invited them as a Fascist group to Parliament grounds?"

                      I don't think evidence is being called for, Molly, nor is "being invited" the issue. I think protesters and their supporters are being asked to justify their tolerance and tacit support of the Fascists who were protesting along side. In other words, why weren't those Fascists actively and effectively denounced and ejected from the site, by the bone fide protesters?

                      Does that help?

              • Just Saying …
                3 July 2022 at 3:38 pm

                Wow, the Auckland TPP protest too.

                I think you are right that a unique issue-based protest is a bit different.

              • Rosemary McDonald …
                3 July 2022 at 3:52 pm

                Not 'political'…as in aligned with a particular party or direction (Left, Right, Whatever.) ….but certainly not naive. No siree. Some of us have already been trespassed from Parliament in years past. Some of us marched down Queen Street against the TPPA. (The first broken promise…?) Some of us have sat in or given evidence at Environment Court hearings and Commissioner hearings. Been parties in human rights cases against government ministers. Written dozens and dozens of submissions to Select Committees and Consultations for this that and the other. Organised submissions and hikoi(ed) our butts off.

                This anti mandate protest action could be seen as a sequel to many of those largely failed attempts at being heard by yet another government pretending to have our interests at heart.

                This time though…there was no consultation and there was no debate allowed and the instructions from the government and the MOH were all about the vaccine and masks and lockdowns and social distancing and no jab no job.

                Nothing, absolutely fucking nothing about healthy eating and getting out in the fresh air and sunshine and exercising. Reducing weight and controlling blood sugar levels and taking those winter immune supporting vitamins that Grandma used to dole out. In fact…suggest taking Vitamin C and D and the government funded MSM would launch yet another 'these people are anti-vaxxers' tirade.

                At first it was peculiar. Then it became more than a little weird. The government and its media lapdogs created a fertile seed bed for a multitude of conspiracy theories. From the 'WEF/Gates/Big Pharma are taking over' to some truly out- there stuff.

                Invoke Hanlon, because I have no idea if it was an intentional effort to create cognitive dissonance and fear, or they had formed a plan and by goddess they were sticking to it. Even though the data from overseas was saying that this virus was targeting these particular demographics and the vast majority of the population were largely unaffected. Then it was clear that the mRNA shots were not particularly safe and not at all effective at preventing transmission …which if they were might have justified the no jab no job mandates.

                All this was known…and I suggest the Government was naive if they thought that people here in NZ were not keeping up with folks overseas who were further down the path than us.

                October 22nd 2021 was the nail in the coffin. Finished. Ardern stated quite clearly that her agenda was to create a division between those who wanted the experimental shot and those of us who didn't. She didn't even pretend it was about preventing transmission. It was about "confidence". "Confidence" that the person sitting next to you in the cafe or bar has also 'done the right thing' and been double jabbed.

                Some groups genuinely attempted to connect with Ardern and Co and get them to see that some people having the shots were suffering very real adverse effects. They doubled down. There are people who have stated clearly, and not hiding behind anonymity, that well over 30,000 comments were deleted from Ardern's facebook page when she suggested people tell her about vaccine adverse reactions. Some were screenshot…and again these are Kiwis, commenting in their own names, begging the PM of Kindness to recognise that the Pfizer shot is almost toxic to some. Nothing. Nada. And a marked increase in 'safe and effective' and anti anti-vaxxer messaging from the lapdog MSM.

                The Convoy. The Freedom Village. Yes, of the already disaffected, but also of tens of thousands of folk who have never protested about anything in their lives. Seeing a loved one wracked with chest pain or bedridden for days will do that. And it grew. It flourished. It scared the shit out of the Beehive dwellers who thought they had everyone scared into compliance. Thing is…yes lots of people had died from the virus or died from neglect or shitty medical care…but it was already at the stage (in October 2021) where some people were saying they knew more people who got sick or died from the jabs than they did from the virus.

                But all of that…we're not allowed to talk about. Entire pages and groups who did were removed from facebook. 'Undermines Public Health messaging.' What a joke.

                As I said. Fertile ground.

                Too late now. The damage is done. February 10th and March 2nd. All the many on here who were cheering the cops on…? Hope you're content. Happy even. You're the righteous Left who cheered on while the cops beat and terrorised the already traumatised. The vast majority of whom were overwhelmingly peaceful. Hurt. Betrayed. (Goodbye to those Labour, Green, National and ACT voters.) Judged we are because those few nutters who turn up at any old gathering have the loudest voices.

                ( Oh, the Destiny Church lads were well and truly put in their place in the first few days of the Freedom Village when it looked liked they were going to exploit minor weaknesses in the organisation. Such as it was. And the guy(s) with the Trump Flags was at all marches and gatherings…so keen, he was often the first one there. Positioned right in front of the MSM cameras.)

                • Nic the NZer …
                  3 July 2022 at 4:27 pm

                  "Oh, the Destiny Church lads were well and truly put in their place in the first few days of the Freedom Village when it looked liked they were going to exploit minor weaknesses in the organisation. Such as it was. "

                  Spill Rosemary, don't leave us hanging like that. Because from the outside it looked like the Destiny protesters were the more reasonable ones and this could well have operated like the prior protests involving TFRC had. This appears to have been the key decision and difference in February was pushing TFRC out.

                • Incognito …
                  3 July 2022 at 8:38 pm

                  Then it was clear that the mRNA shots were not particularly safe and not at all effective at preventing transmission …

                  And there you go again, repeating the same lie BS.

                  If the Pfizer vaccine is as “toxic” as you seem to believe then Medsafe would have pulled it or at least restricted its use and not provisionally approved its use in children of 5 years of age and over. The Moderna vaccine has been provisionally approved for 12 and over. None of this means that these vaccines are without some side effects and can never cause serious adverse events, no vaccines are.

                  • Rosemary McDonald …
                    3 July 2022 at 9:05 pm

                    Sigh. I said "…almost toxic to some." So just stop with the BS please.

                    None of this means that these vaccines are without some side effects and can never cause serious adverse events, no vaccines are.

                    But the Pfizer shot has attracted a shit tonne of reports. A veritable tsunami. As I've pointed out before.

                    https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-29-06-2022/#comment-1897907

                    .https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/profs/PUArticles/March2020/Influenza-vaccine-2019-what-to-expect-this-year.html

                    Estimated reporting rate per 100,000 doses 16.9

                    and…. https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-41.asp#top10_bar

                    On average for every 10,000 people who are vaccinated 55 people report an AEFI.

                    Check my maths…that's 16.9 (out of 100,000 doses) reports of adverse effects for the flu jab in 2019 compared to 550 reports of adverse effects (out of 100,000 doses) for the Pfizer product.

                    32 x higher rate of reporting for the Pfizer product.

                    And before you go all KJT on me…half these reports are filed by persons other than the affected. Like doctors and nurses and vaccinators. Even if you remove half the reports as being 'unreliable'…that's still 16 times more reports than for the so- unpopular -they- have- to- threaten- nurses- to -take- it flu shot.

                    And there is no mandatory reporting of side effects…you'd think that there would be considering the novel nature of the product.

                    Effective? https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7031e2.htm?s_cid=mm7031e2_w

                    • Incognito …
                      3 July 2022 at 9:41 pm

                      Stop your stupid BS games here. Don’t pretend that “almost toxic” is not toxic at all; you know exactly what you meant and it was clear as day.

                      All you posturing is meaningless and tiresome. The bottom line is that the vaccine is safe and effective enough to be given to all New Zealanders of 5 and over unless contra-indicated.

                      If you want to go down the self-reporting rabbit hole, here’s a good published peer-reviewed paper for you, with good references (e.g. #50 and #51):

                      Characteristics and Comparison of Adverse Events of Coronavirus Disease 2019 Vaccines Reported to the United States Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System Between 14 December 2020 and 8 October 2021

                      https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmed.2022.826327/full

                      The findings were not alarming, but I won’t go 'all Rosemary’ on you and selectively quote from it.

                      There’s mandatory reporting, from Pfizer to Medsafe, which is a requirement of the provisional approvals in place at present.

                      https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/Comirnaty-RMP.pdf

                      The Medsafe safety monitoring is very thorough and comprehensive: https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/monitoring-process.asp

                      Yes, the current vaccine is still effective, but diminishing with time and each new variant.

                • mpledger …
                  4 July 2022 at 7:34 pm

                  Here is a graph of cumulative cases per 100,00 people (we've overtaken the USA FFS). The green box is when the anti-mandate protests were.

                  graph

                  We’re all going to be feeling the cost of that for quite some time to come.

              • Just Saying …
                3 July 2022 at 3:54 pm

                You are not getting it Weka. It wasn't a left-right issue. More important than that, it delegitimises protest if we are held to account for the beliefs and actions of everyone there. This is dangerously anti-democratic.

                You didn't answer the query about the TPP protestors being far-right white supremacists because of this presence at the protests.

                Good grief it is unlawful to discriminate against persons according to actual close relationships according to NZ Human Rights legislation. To smear a protest according to just being at the same protest is off the scales in terms of discrimination.

                • Robert Guyton …
                  3 July 2022 at 7:03 pm

                  Rather than, Just Saying, being "held to account for the beliefs and actions of everyone there", the protesters are being asked to share their thoughts about the presence of certain elements/people who were with them at the protests. I too, would like to hear what protesters or their supporters here on this forum, feel and think about the presence of people who hail from the far-right, the fascist, the supremist groups who have been named on this thread. It seems to me, that pro-protest commenters here are minimising the presence/role/influence those people.

                  • Matiri …
                    3 July 2022 at 7:23 pm

                    I look at these protests through the lens of something I experienced when I was living in Ngahinapouri, where a local resident was so enraged with the actions of a helicopter that she waved a weapon at the helicopter causing it to take evasive action, resulting in a lot of damage and prosecution for her.

                    We all have a right to protest but extreme actions that threaten the lives or livelihoods of others are not OK in my view.

                    https://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/5157687/Furious-archer-acts-on-spraying

                    • Rosemary McDonald …
                      3 July 2022 at 8:46 pm

                      Well done Matiri. Such a sleuth. I've done this before here on TS, but if you insist.

                      …she waved a weapon at the helicopter causing it to take evasive action, resulting in a lot of damage …

                      What evasive action? What damage?

                      There's this little thing called "evidence". And no, 'because the pilot said so' is not evidence.

                      I'll give you a little hint…a quote from the Judge as he dismissed the charge against me.

                      "While I can't say the pilot was lying, I found his evidence to be unreliable, inconsistent and prevaricating."

                      You know…its all very well being big and brave and bold from behind a pseudonym.

                      Coward.

                      [we absolutely support people’s right to use a pseudonym here. Don’t attack people that do so, read the Policy. And, there’s more than enough to comment on without flaming. If I see you do either again, expect a ban – weka]

                    • weka []
                      4 July 2022 at 1:02 am

                      mod note.

                • weka …
                  4 July 2022 at 1:07 am

                  You are not getting it Weka. It wasn't a left-right issue.

                  I didn't frame it as a left/right issue. But I'm not going to stop talking about the different politics involved either.

                  More important than that, it delegitimises protest if we are held to account for the beliefs and actions of everyone there. This is dangerously anti-democratic.

                  You're really not taking in what is being said here. I haven't made the argument that all protestors are responsible for all other participants. But that doesn't mean that there's zero responsibility.

                  You didn't answer the query about the TPP protestors being far-right white supremacists because of this presence at the protests.

                  Don't know enough about the example, so I addressed it generally. What didn't you understand?

                  Good grief it is unlawful to discriminate against persons according to actual close relationships according to NZ Human Rights legislation. To smear a protest according to just being at the same protest is off the scales in terms of discrimination.

                  You still haven't said what the smear is. If it's that people are saying there are fascists, neo nazis, alt right and far right involved in the protests, the problem you have is that there are those people involved. Tell me what you think of Counterspin's involvement.

                  • Just Saying …
                    4 July 2022 at 9:09 am

                    This whole thread has turned into such a mess.

                    There are a couple of things I want to quickly answer.

                    You

                    • Just Saying …
                      4 July 2022 at 9:37 am

                      This whole thread has turned into such a mess.

                      Sorry, It's even harder to post since the last update. Trying to type fast.

                      You say you don't frame this as left or right. In a recent comment on this thread you say '…even in left wing protests…'

                      It is key that this issue was always anti-mandate and not associated with a political ''team'' right or left. The endorsement of any right wing group is moot. I hadn't even heard of the one you mentioned, I looked it up.

                      Protest is usually partisan. This was not. If a national government had implemented the mandate it still wouldn't have been left or right. It still would have been about opposing the mandate

                      I've never seen any issue so personalised with protestors slurred, demonised and turned into an an enemy, not only of the left but of the whole damn country

                      Incognito has said this was anti-government. It wasn't. It doesn't matter what individuals felt about anything. And frankly it never does. It doesn't change the fact. It seems we have become so lost in tribalism that we have lost the ability to think outside of it.

                      The left wingers who opposed the mandate didn't become right wing in opposing the mandate. Here on the Standard people were lost through a determination to put people into a horrible and defamatory box that was not true.

                      This inability to separate the issue from a particular team has cost the left more than it realises

                    • Incognito []
                      4 July 2022 at 6:34 pm

                      Incognito has said this was anti-government. [my italics]

                      It might help if you were to properly read the (i.e. my) comments here. As it is, you’re putting words into my mouth. And you might want to explain what you mean with “this”.

                      I reject the absurd notion that every person who joined the Parliament occupation had only one singular motivation and reason for their actions, i.e., protesting the mandates and nothing else. If you and others here on TS want to persuade me into believing this I have a bridge to sell you. In fact, I find this bordering on being blatantly dishonest and I’d have to question one’s good faith here given the clear evidence that there was a lot more going on than simply and peacefully (!) protesting the mandates.

                      The authorities and the occupiers could have handled things better – and I’m not suggesting that responsibility and error were equally divided between these two sides – but instead conflict escalated and ended up in a violent riot. This was hugely disappointing and upsetting for many including those who were not remotely involved in the occupation. It was also a huge wakeup call for the growing influence of (right-wing) extremism and the spreading cancer that is mis- and dis-information that is killing our society, starting with chronic undermining and eroding confidence and trust in authorities and government. This is an issue as big as any other societal problem because it leads to a general impotence in dealing with those.

                    • Sacha …
                      4 July 2022 at 10:07 am

                      You say you don’t frame this as left or right. In a recent comment on this thread you say ‘…even in left wing protests…’

                      It is key that this issue was always anti-mandate and not associated with a political ”team” right or left. The endorsement of any right wing group is moot.

                      Left/right can be handy shorthand for collectivist vs individualist. Pretty clear how stances for and against compulsory public health protections fit into that. Nothing 'defamatory' about it.

                      And are you really claiming that an occupation of parliament grounds was not directed at the government.

                    • weka …
                      4 July 2022 at 11:21 am

                      This whole thread has turned into such a mess.

                      Sorry, It's even harder to post since the last update. Trying to type fast.

                      You say you don't frame this as left or right. In a recent comment on this thread you say '…even in left wing protests…'

                      Sure. There is a such a thing as left wing. It's *your binary thinking that then frames that as left/right. I don't think the Parliament protests were left or right, but within that protest both of those existed and other things too.

                      (I'm a deep green. My politics sit outside the trad left/right spectrum. In a both/and world this is possible and also to be left wing).

                      If you have such a degree of binary thinking going on, then anything anyone says that is critical of the protest will be seen as an opposition. Whereas some of us have taken a more nuanced approach. I definitely don't fit in the 'they're all filth camp', nor even in the 'the protest was wrong' camp. But I do have criticism of the protest. That's a good thing, it enables protest culture to have more integrity and effectiveness.

                      It is key that this issue was always anti-mandate and not associated with a political ''team'' right or left. The endorsement of any right wing group is moot. I hadn't even heard of the one you mentioned, I looked it up.

                      And that's a problem. Because if you don't know who Counterspin are and what their involvement was, then I think it's impossible for you to understand much of the arguments being made here.

                      Protest is usually partisan. This was not. If a national government had implemented the mandate it still wouldn't have been left or right. It still would have been about opposing the mandate

                      Yes. And?

                      I've never seen any issue so personalised with protestors slurred, demonised and turned into an an enemy, not only of the left but of the whole damn country

                      There have definitely been issues with this throughout the pandemic. My take on this is that when people feel threatened they get politically conservative. Many liberals have done this, taking an us and them approach rather than a how can we resolve this approach. This is embedded in the culture imo, rather than being specific to this protest. I see it in identity politics too. I see fault on both sides though, some of the protestors were dismissive of others too. You cannot say masks don't matter in an aggressive way and then expect people whose wellbeing is dependent upon collective mask wearing to respond well.

                      (Yes, masks wearing was part of the politics of the protest. People got covid from that protest and ended up wanting help at a nearby hospital).

                      Incognito has said this was anti-government. It wasn't. It doesn't matter what individuals felt about anything. And frankly it never does. It doesn't change the fact. It seems we have become so lost in tribalism that we have lost the ability to think outside of it.

                      The left wingers who opposed the mandate didn't become right wing in opposing the mandate.

                      Not sure what you mean there. The protest was patently anti-government (any government) and also to an extent anti-Labour. Saying that doesn't mean the protest was right wing (but there were rw elements there).

                      Here on the Standard people were lost through a determination to put people into a horrible and defamatory box that was not true.

                      This inability to separate the issue from a particular team has cost the left more than it realises

                      I have serious concerns about what is happening on the left. Maybe we can talk about that at some point.

                    • weka …
                      4 July 2022 at 11:24 am

                      This whole thread has turned into such a mess.

                      There are a couple of things I want to quickly answer.

                      Once the reply button disappears:

                      • if you are on a computer, find the comment you want to reply to and scroll back up to the *first reply button you find. This will keep your comment in line.
                      • if you are on a mobile device, it's easier to find the right reply button in the Desktop version, then switch to the Mobile version to reply (that works on my iphone).

                      But yeah, it's hard to keep track and find the right comments. I mostly stopped trying on my phone half way through yesterday.

                    • Nic the NZer …
                      4 July 2022 at 11:27 am

                      In terms of what has been said on TheStandard most of the defamatory commentary was clearly coming from the pro-protest commentators.

                      And the limits of that defamation were quite far past claims about effects of mandates. In fact there seemed to be relatively few who were protesting only mandates.

                    • Just Saying …
                      4 July 2022 at 12:45 pm

                      It's pretty bizarre to say I suffer binary thinking, Weka.

                      I feel so tired by this and I'm sure you do too. There so much thrown, I'd literally be here all day responding to every example of discriminatory or inflammatory words whether overt or passive aggressive.

                      But let me use this as an example.

                      You often post on the transgender issue, citing things like detransitioning, the dangers of puberty blocking drugs etc.

                      I read widely according to the quality of information, not according to political spectrum. I felt particularly confused by this issue and took a really, really deep dive to try and understand. In this case into what was, in some cases, troubling territory for me.

                      This is a really heated issue. What if I asked you to ''account for'' ''allying'' with the extreme right, Nazis, militant misogynists, climate change deniers, Trump supporters…… hell the list is endless but you get my point. And all due sharing some common ground on this issue. Because in fact you do.

                      I can certainly point you to some writers with very, very ''unsavoury'' overt allegiances making the same arguments I've seen you make. What if I accused you of being these things and further, what if the government claimed you were these things if they made a transgender issue decision that you opposed?

                      To widen it, what if the government legislated coercion with severe restrictions on your civil liberties for not agreeing to medical procedures in line with their beliefs about your ''inner gender''? And what if the Prime Minister said that these restrictions of your civil liberties were not to further public health, but to make those who had agreed to the procedure feel more comfortable?

                      Would you be involved in action opposing what I describe?

                      Would your opposition be against the government as an entity or political allegiance, or against such measures?

                      Would being accused of a Nazi, militant-misogynist climate change denier – by the government, because of your opposition…. And echoed with far more dehumanising terms like filth, excrement and vermin, at the Standard cause you to be angry? To feel insulted, unwanted and booted out by left? etc.?

                    • Sacha …
                      4 July 2022 at 1:03 pm

                      And what if the Prime Minister said that these restrictions of your civil liberties were not to further public health, but to make those who had agreed to the procedure feel more comfortable?

                      Cmon, how does that apply to Covid vaccination?

                    • weka …
                      4 July 2022 at 2:44 pm

                      It's pretty bizarre to say I suffer binary thinking, Weka.

                      Why? You said something, I pointed to the binary nature of it. If I'm wrong, you will have to explain your thinking.

                      This is a really heated issue. What if I asked you to ''account for'' ''allying'' with the extreme right, Nazis, militant misogynists, climate change deniers, Trump supporters…… hell the list is endless but you get my point. And all due sharing some common ground on this issue. Because in fact you do.

                      I can certainly point you to some writers with very, very ''unsavoury'' overt allegiances making the same arguments I've seen you make.

                      Yes it is a really heated issue. If someone wants to make the claim that say GCF is allied with the religious right in the US and thus are connected to white supremacy and Trump, have at it. That's exactly what should be happening on TS, one of the few places that upholds evidence based debate.

                      There are some limits on that conversation. You can't call someone a terf here (it's a slur and pejorative in most uses), you can't attack authors/mods. So how the argument is made matters. That's a really important point.

                      Part of the reason I say yes, have the debate about that here, is because this is actually an issue. Not solely that people make the accusation, but that there are gc people, including feminists, who are allying with the religious right in the US. Feminists need to grapple with that (gc and gi both), and work through the very real issue of what some feminists would do that.

                      I would also be making it clear that it's not most GCFs, and it's certainly a known dynamic that many left wing GCFs have rejected and condemned those that work with the hard right. There's been a fair bit of debate about this. Best thing I have read was this the other day from Jane Clare Jones,

                      https://janeclarejones.com/2022/06/26/purity-spirals-political-alliances-and-movement-building/

                      That is the kind of nuanced analysis we should be reading and debating.

                      The problem with the sex/gender war is No Debate, which has often blocked such debate. That creates a space for memes, unsubstantiated accusations, and a lot of bullshit in the place of meaningful dialogue.

                      I'm not seeing that here on this freedom protest issue. What I see is quite a few people willing to front up and make arguments from a range of perspectives. We have to talk about the nazis in the room, because they are there. But I'm not seeing anyone calling anyone here a nazi and trying to shut down debate.

                      Can you see the difference?

                    • weka …
                      4 July 2022 at 2:51 pm

                      What if I accused you of being these things and further, what if the government claimed you were these things if they made a transgender issue decision that you opposed?

                      MPs in the UK do in fact say things like that, usually on twitter. MPs who make the laws. So I get what you are saying here. This is why we have political movements.

                      To widen it, what if the government legislated coercion with severe restrictions on your civil liberties for not agreeing to medical procedures in line with their beliefs about your ''inner gender''? And what if the Prime Minister said that these restrictions of your civil liberties were not to further public health, but to make those who had agreed to the procedure feel more comfortable?

                      I could say more about how various governments are in fact making changes and enforcing ideology in the sex/gender wars, but let's go back the freedom protests. Please supply two or three examples (quotes and links), that show what you are meaning about the NZ govt and the covid response. Because I don't quite get what you are saying here and I think having examples to work with would make the conversation go much better.

                      Would you be involved in action opposing what I describe?

                      Did you miss the part where I have said the Wellington protest wasn't wrong, that those people weren't wrong to protest, or occupy?

                    • Just Saying …
                      4 July 2022 at 6:42 pm

                      Wow, I can post again. I thought last night's outage had finally finished windows ten and the old computers that couldn't upgrade to 11. It took about ten minutes of fiddling around to get it to work this time , and it was attempt fifteen. This morning's comment was straight through. Its getting harder and harder now though.

                      Weka, I don't think you are a Nazi, climate change denying, uber -militant misogynist etc, etc. It was an analogy and one that I didn't intend to cast any aspersion on you or the transgender issue.

                      We are not allied with everyone who shares any particular point of view, if we were there would be some very strange alliances around and we'd all be guilty by association, of every position, including those we vehemently oppose.

                      I've felt uncomfortable joining conversations about transgender issues. It feels very sensitive with a great danger of hurting personal feelings -( I'm afraid I've forgotten what the acronyms stand for since I dived into the subject to learn more -way beyond just the vexatious, I might add).

                      I understand the desire to broaden discussion, but I try to avoid what is tender. I've never taken much in politics personally. Where something feels like its tender, whether to me or to others, I usually veer away. And that can be a real problem because I have an assumption that ''general'' politics just isn't, and could definitely be more sensitive across the board.

                      It is a 'broadening out' to get me to explore the territory, and who knows who else?

            • Incognito 1.2.1.3.3.2
              3 July 2022 at 6:10 pm

              Because if it has not been proven…then I wish folks would desist from repeating a lie.

              Nope. Something that has not been proven is just that: unproven. The absence of sufficient proof or evidence does not make it a lie. That’s another example of binary and misleading (sloppy) thinking & language that is counter-productive and yet you love using it!?

              • Just Saying …
                3 July 2022 at 6:41 pm

                This is insulting people, in some cases, people here. Yet without evidence.

                If you claim that you know something that leads you to make insulting claims on a public forum, isn't there some obligation to provide the evidence?

                • Incognito …
                  3 July 2022 at 6:48 pm

                  Who’s insulting people here? What evidence are you referring to? Can you please be more specific and clearer because I cannot parse your comment and intention.

                  • Just Saying …
                    3 July 2022 at 8:01 pm

                    There have been many odious slurs, but what I was specifically responding to was your reply to Felix above.

                    ….Any honest reading of the protest would acknowledge that it was a protest against the mandates (ie against people losing their jobs and losing access to public institutions generally for not submitting to a medical treatment), despite attracting a wide range of people (and obviously protests against policies that affect a wide range of people are going to attract a wide range of people)…….

                    ……Second question, how many neo-nazis do you really think were present at the anti-mandate protest? Would I need both of my hands to count them?

                    Above was from Felix's comment from the discussion on an alleged neo nazi\far right influence within the anti-mandate protest. The full comment is just above. I've abbreviated for relevance

                    There have been claims about neo-Nazi leadership, agenda, funding, and 'innocents' foolishly being led by the nose by such people in regard to the anti-mandate protest. The discussion had come to focus on there being a few such people at the protest, and the significance or otherwise of this.

                    Below is your reply.

                    That’s not the right question to be asking, IMO, because it is predicated on the assumption that only real in-person presence matters and we know that this was inextricably linked to virtual on-line presence, which likely had a much wider and farther reach and thus did more damage. While the physical occupation of Parliament grounds is over, the on-line fights are still ongoing.

                    The reason the on-line fights are ongoing is because while they are considerably toned down from the height of the argument, there is still an insistence that the neo-Naziism claims (for example) were fair and accurate despite the insistence of those involved that they were not. As I mentioned, other protests attended by neo-Nazis have not been tarred in this way. It is insulting to suggest that the presence of any small minority is either representative of any protest as a whole, or that the non-Nazi majority were duped into supporting Naziism, that they could or should have prevented the entry to the public protest of those whose other beliefs and previous behaviour were able to be seized on to tarnish the entire protest, or that the majority should have publicly denounced such attendees at the time to prove the protest's independence from the odious and highly charged taint of Naziism, if such characterisation was not accurate.

                    • Sacha …
                      3 July 2022 at 8:07 pm

                      You seem to be hung up on the N word. Would it help if people called them organised fascists instead?

                      And these were groups/movements who promoted and organised the occupation, not a few random boot boys who just happened to turn up on the day.

                    • Just Saying …
                      3 July 2022 at 8:39 pm

                      I hope this goes to the right place to reply to Sacha.

                      And these were groups/movements who promoted and organised the occupation, not a few random boot boys who just happened to turn up on the day.

                      What is your evidence for this claim?

                    • Sacha …
                      4 July 2022 at 7:47 am

                      Disinformation specialists were analysing memberships and communication. Been reported lots since in media and discussed here.

                    • Incognito …
                      4 July 2022 at 6:54 pm

                      It is insulting to suggest that the presence of any small minority …

                      At least you acknowledge their physical presence, but you still downplay their on-line presence and influence. You cannot view the occupation and the dynamics of events as a simple numbers game, nor can you ignore the other nefarious agendas that started to dominate and still do.

                      The mandates have been and are being challenged in Court and with increasing success. They were always intended as temporary Public Health measures covered by temporary and limited Orders (by the Director General of Health). Anti-mandate protestors should feel some satisfaction (?) in this yet they seem to have jumped on other bandwagons now, which is exactly how online radicalisation operates with this exact intention and purpose. To suggest that stating this is an insult is an insult by itself to everybody’s intelligence.

                      If you insist that this is still about mandates only then you’re free to do so but you’re closing your eyes to what’s (been) happening.

                  • Sacha …
                    4 July 2022 at 7:49 am

                    Pictorially

                    • Incognito …
                      4 July 2022 at 8:01 am

                      Yes, that’s scarily accurate. I have been thinking for a while now about a post on this and how easy it is to fit the shoe and before you know the whole wardrobe.

                    • Sacha …
                      4 July 2022 at 8:17 am

                      Another helpful tweet, recalling Popper on tolerance

              • Rosemary McDonald …
                3 July 2022 at 9:11 pm

                Something that has not been proven is just that: unproven. The absence of sufficient proof or evidence does not make it a lie.

                Spoken like a true politician.

                And the more we repeat the 'unproven' statement the more likely it is to be perceived as being true…eventually.

                • Incognito …
                  3 July 2022 at 9:36 pm

                  Please fuck off; I’m not in politics and you know it.

                  The more you cry “lies”, the more your start believing [in] it.

                  Things are not false and deliberate until they are proven true; we can reserve judgement and avoid cheap & lazy labelling. Your false dichotomies are starting to wear off here.

                • Shanreagh …
                  4 July 2022 at 11:46 am

                  Actually it is not a political stance but one harking back to philosophy and various legal systems.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.2.2
        4 July 2022 at 7:42 am

        He saw "well over a dozen or so" members set up in Hagley Park, across the road from the Deans Ave mosque, about 4.30pm with loud speakers "blasting across the road at the mosque".

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/112268320/destiny-church-members-reclaim-christchurch-for-jesus

        "I thought it would be quite appropriate with me being a pastor and a believer of Jesus Christ to go back to the same spot and declare that Jesus Christ is the true god."

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/destiny-church-members-meet-outside-al-noor-mosque-to-declare-nz-is-a-christian-country/VAVBR56PZ5H446OHBM7HMNG2SE/

        Derek Tait ….
        And this…soon after the ChCH Mosque far right atrocity !

        Well…..I can see what is what. And no amount of….”but we didnt agree with ALL that the far right/nazi/fundy religious/associated bigots were saying” …..cuts no credibility with me.

        And those, who yet still cant see this? Its all a guvmint conspiracy against them ? Beyond belief.

  2. joe90 2
    3 July 2022 at 10:52 am

    Why doesn’t the gummint do something.

    /

    Just 24 medical practitioners received direct assistance to come to Australia under a travel program announced by the Morrison government which promised to bring an extra 2,000 doctors and nurses into the country.

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jun/29/just-24-health-workers-helped-under-morrison-government-scheme-to-bring-2000-medics-to-australia?

    • Molly 2.1
      3 July 2022 at 11:27 am

      We have exceptional training here, and accompanying student loans, which on top of unaffordable housing means that graduates often take their newly minted qualifications and use those skills overseas.

      Despite knowing that the pressure on the health system was only going to grow, it was only the enrolled nurse qualification that was deemed worthy of supporting with the trades free fees Covid programme.

      How do we make it desirable for medical staff to stay on?

      We could provide some kind of financial incentive in terms of guaranteed work placement after qualification/student loan writeoff at varying levels depending how long you remain in NZ. (A form of indentured service, similar to trade qualifications in the Defence Force.) Include the ability to second overseas at the later stages for brief periods of time, to improve experience and bring that back to NZ.

      At present, recently qualified medical staff will go overseas – in part because the financial returns are better, a reward for years of studying will be a better work/life balance, and living overseas is exciting. Somehow, this needs to be offset, while still allowing for overseas experience and growth.

      It also must be taken into account that at this stage of life, people will often be looking and finding life partners. If they are overseas when they do this, those partners will not often be NZers, and the reason to remain an ex-pat will get stronger. If they stay here after qualifying, the reverse is true. They are more likely to build social and work networks here, improving the chance of their skills remaining in NZ.

      There are identifiable areas of healthcare that need additional resources. Identify them, and arrange for NZ indentured staff to be able to access that work experience overseas and bring that training back to NZ to fulfill those needs.

      There needs to be some full picture thinking happening here.

      • Sabine 2.1.1
        3 July 2022 at 12:25 pm

        We could do:

        Make the first 25.000 tax free for a starter – that being the min amount renting (and that would benefit beneficiaries as well, and any other low wage worker)

        Provide housing during training as it used to be done – when training was done in hospitals that was the norm, but can apply to hospitality too, ditto horticulture, agriculture and again, was done in the past.

        Allow for a 'work of your studentloan' scheme – stay in the country for 3 – 5 years and have your student loan wiped – apply this to any other skill that is needed

        Increase the pay – after all we are fond of stating that in order to attract good candiates we must pay good dollar, unless that is only a thing when hiring PR or Consultants.

        But of course we could also just complain that these highly skilled low wage workers leave to greener shores elsewhere where they have the same problem due to the same reasoning but pay is still a bit better then here, and we will take up those that come from countries that pay even less then we do. 🙂

        • Molly 2.1.1.1
          3 July 2022 at 12:36 pm

          Yes, we really could do all this.

          But it seems the political class waits for individuals to pick up the pieces to solve the systematic problems of inadequate governance and policies.

          Many of the overseas nurses I have had contact with (and conversations with) in the last couple of years, view NZ as a transit point rather than a final destination. Easier to get the NZ qualification, and go on to the UK, States and Australia, then go there with their own countries nursing qualifications. So, in those cases, even our solutions are transient.

          • Sabine 2.1.1.1.1
            3 July 2022 at 12:49 pm

            All of our low wagers from overseas that I know have left for overseas once they have their residency, generally OZ, UK, and why not. Some actually have good degrees that will help them elsewhere while we refused to even look at these people as 'skilled' thus forcing them to becomes Toi Ohomai students paying thousands not for skills but for a visa.

            Enabled by every government since ages ago.

            • Molly 2.1.1.1.1.1
              3 July 2022 at 12:55 pm

              I don't blame them either, they are doing what they can to go ahead, by whatever process is available.

              That's why we have to look effective methods of retention for both those born here, and for those who come here.

      • Visubversa 2.1.2
        3 July 2022 at 1:30 pm

        When my nephew graduated from Medical School in Auckland a few years ago, the University held the farewell ceremony/prizegiving in November – almost immediately the exams were marked. This was because a large portion of the class would not be in New Zealand at the time of the general graduation ceremonies in May of the following year.

  3. Just Saying 3
    3 July 2022 at 12:50 pm

    Reply to Weka,

    Apologies for this jumping to the bottom.

    At a protest people turn up, as I'm sure you know. Most don't know each other.

    There are groups that work together, but frankly that's often a lot harder than it sounds. People show up at the designated venue according to their own beliefs and desires. The idea of being ''allied'' with everyone is nonsensical beyond just being there. It would be pretty hard to be ''allied'' with people you have never met or their particular external causes you usually don't know, and sometimes, actively oppose.

    Thanks for the info on 'Tait'. Sad.

    • weka 3.1
      3 July 2022 at 12:56 pm

      I understand what you are saying and I agree to an extent. However in Wellington, there was a political naivety that cannot continue to be an excuse for not pushing back against the far right involvement. Some will be opportunism, some won't care. All that needs addressing. eg if I had been at Wellington, I would have wanted to do media work saying we weren't allied with the far right. Whether that would have been safe for me as a woman is another issue that needs to be addressed.

      See also, if you haven't already,

      .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-03-07-2022/#comment-1898247

      • Shanreagh 3.1.1
        3 July 2022 at 3:01 pm

        I agree with this view Weka.

        While we might have been persuaded in a day or hour long protest that numbers show commitment those aligning themselves with the long parliamentary protest would surely. could surely have seen the likes of Counterspin, Arps trying desperately to get across the Strait etc there and gone 'huh'?

        In discussing these points with protest goers it was as thought they were impervious to the idea that some people/many people will have piggy-backed themselves onto a group that had, many moons previously, bone fide good intentions.

        This is giving them the benefit of the doubt……the similarity in talking points etc etc rallying cries to similar actions in the US & Canada were obvious really early on. If you were reading this kind of stuff on anti vax fora in the US it was clear VFF/TFRC had just put some of this stuff onto their own websites.

        David Farrier, and I quote him every time I comment about the bona fides of these anti vax protest groups. Now some of these groups are throwing off their old clothes and trying to assure us they have shiny new clothes and deserve a chance. It is always good to see where they have come from.

        https://www.webworm.co/p/loopy

        Farrier's latest exposes have been on grifting churches and I would count Destiny as one as well as schools with a particular character and receiving tax payer funds then teaching against the laws of NZ.

  4. Just Saying 4
    3 July 2022 at 2:05 pm

    Thanks Weka,

    Until this protest I would have been inclined to agree about responding to media accusations and clearly dissociated the protest from White Power etc. If I had been there I think I would have felt anxious, especially about media representations due to the attendance of some people. It is worth noting that this doesn't usually happen. The media isn't usually making accusations due to who is attending. And also doesn't usually misrepresent what the protest is even about, and seek and cast slurs without evidence. In other words reporting is not supposed to take a hostile stance on what it is reporting.

    This brings me to my first point. Where there is a smear campaign it is common wisdom to not respond to it, because to do so will always fuel such a campaign.

    The other thing is something that I feel the protest demonstrated. A protest cannot seek approval. One of the reasons I feel this protest was effective was that no-one looked like they were afraid, looking over their shoulder worried about what might be said, anticipating criticism and being super controlled (and frankly controlled by that fear). It is ungrounded to live inside a fear of disapproval and it is extremely counter-productive to the cause. I think we somehow forgot that.

    As for others with particular needs or preferences, it might be good to provide customised spaces as accommodations for those who wish to 'do' respectable, if they would feel uncomfortable or unable to express their respectability in the general mileu. (Here I mean 'respectable' in the upper-middle-class sense of very polite, sensibly dressed and shod, ''uber-reasonable'' with signage of impeccable grammar and spelling etc., and due respect for academic titles and other status indicators (usually beautifully subtle and tasteful).

    But I've come to see slavish pandering to what people might think as a kind of death knell in protest.

  5. Shanreagh 5
    3 July 2022 at 3:07 pm

    This brings me to my first point. Where there is a smear campaign it is common wisdom to not respond to it, because to do so will always fuel such a campaign.

    I am not sure where you are saying the smear campaign came from?

    Surely factual reporting of signs followed by who was there does not fall into the category of smear?

    With the action form the ground, so to speak over the days and listening to the Counterspin rubbish on the speakers enabled many of us to see, without any so-called media smear just what was there.

    I may have misunderstood you though. Where was the smear campaign coming from?

  6. Shanreagh 6
    3 July 2022 at 4:05 pm

    This may be controversial.

    I actually don't find being Maori and having a right wing belief system are mutually exclusive.

    To say this, in my view, points down the path of the 'noble savage' and takes away individual agency that belongs to all our citizens.

    I don't expect anyone by their whakapapa to automatically belong or not belong to any other group in NZ.

    I also don't believe, and never have, that if you belong to a minority group you cannot/will not indulge in any of the 'isms' along with the best of them. To say this means that one can never control one's fate/destiny etc…..that all of us are consigned to a future like slot cars never deviating nor being able to deviate from the road ahead. Again it takes away agency and puts it some aspirations out of reach.

    It also clouds the fact that we are humans first and humans have good qualities and bad qualities. There are good Chinese and not so good, good Irish and not so good, good Maori and not so good…..

  7. SPC 7
    3 July 2022 at 4:18 pm

    SCOTUS appears likely to allow states legislatures to determine election rules in their states.

    https://www.vox.com/23161254/supreme-court-threat-democracy-january-6

    • Muttonbird 8.1
      3 July 2022 at 5:51 pm

      Is it significant she is wearing white when meeting noted philanderer, Boris Johnson?

      Or am I reading too much into it?

      • Anne 8.1.1
        3 July 2022 at 6:31 pm

        I think it might have been a diversion tactic on Johnson's part. Some journo was yelling out about a sleaze scandal. Mind you they can't talk. The UK MSM must hold the prize for having the worst bunch of sleaze-bag journos on the planet.

  9. Muttonbird 9
    3 July 2022 at 6:16 pm

    Herr Doktor in trouble again. This time he has had his precious Twitter account suspended for breaking their hateful conduct policy, tweeting this:

    Remember when pride was a sin? And Ellen Page just had her breasts removed by a criminal physician.

    Here he dead-names Elliot Page, and later doubles down on comparing gender affirming surgery to Nazi medical experiments.

    He says he would "rather die" than delete the tweet that got him suspended.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/lifestyle/2022/07/jordan-peterson-defends-tweet-shaming-plus-size-model.html

    Why do we bother entertaining scum like Jordan Peterson?

  10. Molly 10
    3 July 2022 at 6:24 pm

    A couple of interesting tweets, that demonstrate the necessity to always balance issues – and how with the diversity of humanity it is never black and white:

    The first is a 2015 New York post about a NZ couple using puberty blockers to inhibit growth in their completely dependent daughter:

    https://nypost.com/2015/10/26/parents-stunt-disabled-daughters-growth-in-controversial-treatment/

    At 10, she cannot speak, walk or see anything beyond light and dark and perhaps the shadowy shape of a face held inches away. As she grew bigger, her parents feared she would eventually become too heavy to take anywhere.

    So Jenn and Mark Hooper came up with a radical solution. The New Zealand couple gave their daughter hormones to stop her growth. Then they had doctors remove her womb to spare her the pain of menstruation. Charley is now around 4 foot 3 and 53 pounds, and will remain so for the rest of her life.

    I had a brief acquaintance with a family who had a daughter with similar difficulties. Her mother – around 5 1/2 feet – was reaching the limits of her physical ability to lift and carry her daughter when going out. This stopping of physical growth would enable the family to continue their care, even though the other physical impacts would be negative.

    The second tweet was about an insert that women could place in their vagina, that caught unwanted penises by using barbs.

    Medieval torture device – or effective punitive security measure?

    https://twitter.com/AmaTheLucifer/status/1543469434664280064

  11. Joe90 11
    3 July 2022 at 6:29 pm

    Just three concerned mums and their fellow astroturfer doing the mahi for the boss.

    • Muttonbird 11.1
      3 July 2022 at 6:52 pm

      The Taxdodger's Union seems to have a big lift in funding from those shady sources. To be paying Curia for regular polling cannot be cheap.

    • Incognito 12.1
      3 July 2022 at 7:32 pm

      That’s a good read, thank you.

    • Molly 12.2
      4 July 2022 at 2:59 pm

      Through the home education community, I have extensive experience with quite a few Christian fundamentalist families. The influence of these families in the wider community was negligible to non-existent. That amount of oversight and control requires huge amounts of energy and attention, there’s nothing left for outsiders.

      As time passes, it is usually the children from these families that do something to break off the shackles of that control. Even if they are completely home educated, they are more influenced, than influential on others.

      Non-fundamentalist Christians were gently tolerant and slightly embarrassed by their more fundamental and strict cohort. Individuals did move from fundamentalism – as I mentioned, mostly the children – but occasionally mothers. I never saw anyone at all moving towards fundamentalism in the two decades I was active in the community.

      Fundamentalist Christianity has never been a good experience for woman and girls, but for those growing up in such families it's a known quantity, and the only social and support network they know. Many who leave flounder for a while before finding their feet. Most I remember are female.

      Men have fewer reasons to leave, or care about injustices. They benefit from that approach and beliefs.

  13. joe90 13
    3 July 2022 at 8:33 pm

    Was Dr Verrall softening us up?

    Meanwhile, public health experts warn New Zealand may be seeing the start of a new surge in cases as a new, more infectious Omicron strain spreads across New Zealand.

    […]

    It wasn't clear how big the surge would be, but there were multiple factors affecting the numbers – particularly the arrival of new, more infectious Omicron subvariants BA.4, BA.5 and BA.2.12.1, he said.

    A Covid-19 modeller says BA.5 cases are doubling every week, and will soon overtake BA.2 as the dominant strain. That could see New Zealand return to its March peak of 25,000 daily infections, according to Dr David Welch, a senior lecturer at Auckland University.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-omicron-outbreak-experts-warn-of-new-ba5-surge-11-covid-related-deaths-and-4924-cases-today/Z3GNALAXDEK5K2UXGLFLHTYO2U/

  14. lprent 14
    3 July 2022 at 11:57 pm

    BIOS updates this evening.

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