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Open mike 03/09/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 3rd, 2021 - 159 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

159 comments on “Open mike 03/09/2021 ”

  1. Sacha 1

    US Democrats forced into action to defend reproductive rights. Gosh they may also have to actually reform the filibuster after sitting on their hands. Then expand the Supreme Court to stop this entirely predictable crap happening again.

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nancy-pelosi-abortion-rights_n_6130eeeae4b05f53eda4b24b?qgc

    House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) announced Thursday that she plans to bring up legislation that would codify Roe v. Wade, the landmark Supreme Court decision that protects the right to choose to have an abortion, as soon as the House returns from recess this month.

    “Upon our return, the House will bring up Congresswoman Judy Chu’s Women’s Health Protection Act to enshrine into law reproductive health care for all women across America,” Pelosi said in a statement.

    The Women’s Health Protection Act likely has the votes to pass the House, but it would almost certainly hit a wall in the Senate. Legislation needs 60 votes to advance in the Senate because of the filibuster rule, and there are only 50 senators in the Democratic caucus.

    • Macro 1.1

      Whilst the recent inequitable and misogynistic decision by the current Supreme Court is entirely predictable following the cynical stacking of the body with right wing fundamentalists by Trump and McConnell, the move by Pelosi and the House Democrats to codify Rowe Vs Wade into the Constitution will go nowhere at the moment. Nancy has no say over the Senate Democrats and the "moderate" Democrats in the Senate are DINOs Democrats in name only, and are responsible for the continued existence of the filibuster. There has to be a major shift in political thinking to the left in the US before any major changes in social justice can be made.

    • Sacha 1.2

      Call their bluff

  2. Robert Guyton 2

    Our Federated Farmer friends have slapped-down the Groundswell leaders as "crazy individuals" and sparked a loopy war of words with the "crazy individuals" who are claiming they'll take national leadership of all farmers, if the Feds, Dairy NZ, Beef & Lamb etc. aren't up to it, which they imply, they are not. It's getting crazy out on farm!

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/126258179/division-in-the-ranks-federated-farmers-calls-groundswell-protest-organisers-crazy

    • Incognito 2.1

      Byron Clark wrote a good piece a couple of days ago.

      https://www.newsroom.co.nz/the-radical-right-in-gumboots

      The NZ dairy cow is the Kiwi Trojan horse. Like intestinal parasites fringe nutters hitch a ride undetected by the immune system. They coat-tail unwitting hosts to create a perception of reason, common sense, and normalcy and a platform for spreading their offspring. Only a high dose of ‘ivermectin’ will work and make them squirm …

    • Graeme 2.2

      Hogart was quoted in ODT the night before the howl asking farmers not to take their tractors into town. It was edited out pretty smartly. The farmer owned Co-ops, Fontera and Farmlands, didn’t what to have anything to do with it either with staff banned from attending in brand.

      The next question is who financed the thing, and provided the address database to get it underway, and were able to keep the thing reasonably under the radar. Traffic management and H&S plans and the like aren’t cheap and require professional input. Tad ironic for a ‘grassroots’ outfit protesting compliance costs and requirements.

      • Robert Guyton 2.2.1

        Good questions, Graeme. Incognito's link (above) might shed some light. Or not. I don't doubt there are supporters with money who seek the downfall of the Lab/Green Government and would back any noisy uprising. Farmers are, in my opinion, being duped.

      • woodart 2.2.2

        the levin protest seemed to be run by the owner of the local scaffolding company. a huge irony as his business didnt exist a few years ago ,before health and safety insisted. talk about biteing the hand that feeds you.

  3. Adrian Thornton 3

    Someone brought up the subject of Corbyn a day or two ago, with the usual results, here is a new piece from Consortium News out detailing some of the coordinated MSM attacks on Corbyn and Labour, mainly in regards to The Jewish Cornicle…

    The Newspaper That Smeared Corbyn & the Left

    “Which is why IPSO cannot take any meaningful action against The Jewish Chronicle. To do so would pull the rug from under the anti-Semitism narrative that destroyed Corbyn and is now being used by his successor, Starmer, to purge Labour of the remnants of the left and to distance the party as far as possible from any lingering signs of Palestinian solidarity.

    Exposure of The Jewish Chronicle as an editorial wrecking ball aimed at the left would show just how much the paper and the anti-Semitism narrative it bolstered were key to the Conservative party’s successful smearing of Corbyn that helped to keep him out of No. 10. It would highlight the enduring collusion between the corporate media and the political elite.

    And it would indicate that corporate media is not really an exercise in capitalist, free-market economics, where profitable outlets drive out those that are unpopular. Rather loss-making corporate media such as The Jewish Chronicle are a price the establishment is only too happy to bear as long as those publications fulfil a more important purpose: ensuring that the political and economic climate remains favorable to the ruling class.

    The Jewish Chronicle has played its part in destroying Corbyn and the left. Now it will continue that role by policing the public discourse and ensuring that no one like Corbyn ever gets near power again. Those libel payouts were a small price to pay.”

    https://consortiumnews.com/2021/09/02/the-newspaper-that-smeared-corbyn-the-left/

    • Keith Starmer has gone along with the false and egregious anti-Semitism attacks against Corbyn, suspending him from the Labour Party. Because of this he currently sits in the Commons as an independent.

      Bring back Corbyn I say.

      • tc 3.1.1

        Not going to happen whilst sir Rodney is leading them.

        He's doing a fine job decimating the labour party.

      • Adrian Thornton 3.1.2

        @Bearded Git +1

        "Bring back Corbyn I say." I agree, he is without doubt the most honest, principled major politician in the UK by a country mile (probably in western political anywhere)..of course the usual suspects will poo poo any suggestion of having him back, but then they would, it turns out that the last thing they would ever want to see is a real Left wing government…no just the same old safe centrist bullshit is all these free market fundamentalists can handle….yep they would rather watch the world burn than even consider trying anything outside of the current neoliberal ideology.

        • Morrissey 3.1.2.1

          I agree with your assessment of Corbyn, Adrian, however it must be remembered that his decision to appease the Blairite rump was a catastrophic error on his part. Under a barrage of fantastical, totally unsupported allegations, snarled at him with relentless malice, and amplified by the media—not only the Murdoch outlets but also the Grauniad and the state broadcaster—he kept on apologizing for something he had never done.

          The American journalist and activist Max Blumenthal was astonished by Corbyn's refusal to fight back against the slanderers. In 2015 he went to an event in London featuring the new Labour leader, and a woman claimed, sans evidence, that he (Blumenthal) was "an anti-Semite." Blumenthal, angry, told the organizer that he wanted to make a statement immediately to call her out as a liar. Someone from Labour's "management team" insisted that he actually say nothing; in their experience, the best thing to do was to keep quiet and not make a fuss. It would soon blow over, Blumenthal was assured.

          Blumenthal said the woman was " a gentile": it sounds like it was the egregious Joan Ryan. She can be seen in the Al Jazeera documentary The Lobby accusing an elderly female Labour Party member of "repeating an anti-Semitic trope". When the accused woman protests, Ryan simply repeats her absurd accusation, and then contemptuously refuses to engage with her.

          • Adrian Thornton 3.1.2.1.1

            Yes I totally agree, his biggest single mistake was not purging out the third way centrists as soon as he could, but that is because his very nature is to be inclusive. his second was not shutting down that anti-semitic bullshit hard.

            I guess if he is lacking anything as a politician, he is lacking a bit of the mongrel.,,which can't be said for any other politician I can think of, but non the less, is a serious fault in a politician…sadly.

            • Morrissey 3.1.2.1.1.1

              It was not only Jeremy Corbyn that failed to shut down that character assassination campaign, it was almost the entire Labour "leadership". I died inside every time one of them, as well as "supporters" like Owen Jones nodded solemnly and endorsed the accusations.

              This sort of abject capitulation to fantastic charges happened in the Soviet Union in the 1930s, but those poor souls were being terrorized into submission by a machinery of terror run by Stalin, Vyshinsky, and Beria. By stark contrast, Corbyn, John McDonnell, and the rest of them were apologizing for offences they had never committed, and constantly appeasing lightweights and buffoons like Joan Ryan, Luciana Berger, and Andrew Neil.

  4. Treetop 4

    I spoke to a school principal a few months after school lunches were introduced and he said the students were more settled.

    I did not ask if he thought it was because children had a lunch or that there was less sugar and salt in the provided school lunch or that the vitamin and mineral content in fruit and vegetables in the lunch were making a difference. Probably all the above.

    Lately I have been trying to only but cans which do not have sugar or salt added. When I cannot find an item with no sugar and salt added I go for the reduced sugar and salt.

    It is important to eat well for physical and mental health especially during a pandemic to strengthen the immune system.

    I am concerned about children missing out on having a school lunch provided during lockdown. I also think it is about time for the sugar and salt content in cans and packaged food to be reduced.

    There would be some treat items, mainly desserts, I would still allow to have a high sugar content to satisfy a craving.

  5. Sacha 5

    Politically inconvenient for some.

    • gsays 5.1

      If The Judith and David show have chosen this metric, then it should be cited and updated at every anti-democratic 1pm briefing.

      • alwyn 5.1.1

        So we are still behind the point that countries like the US and the United Kingdom were 3 months ago. And many other countries as well that are not in this selection

        And we are supposed to cheer at that?

        • Incognito 5.1.1.1

          We are miles ahead of the US and the UK on the disease & death curves. I’ll leave it up to you whether you want to cheer at that or be a party pooper.

        • Tricledrown 5.1.1.2

          Alwyn we have a much better vaccine rates than some states in the US especially the more extreme right wing states that are controlled by the GOP have less than 30% of the first dose of much poorer quality vaccines.

          If you look at our latest rates we are ahead of the US.

          Boris is a dysfunctional disaster for the UK. Opening up the economy before a high enough rate of immunity has been achieved.

          Just like his stupidity signing up to brexit another disaster gathering place especially in the modern world of just in time delivery needed for profitable business and manufacturing.

          • alwyn 5.1.1.2.1

            "than some states in the US". That is irrelevant in my view. After all I am sure I could find parts of New Zealand where the vaccination rate is lower than the worst of the US states. I mean I would just have to find a house where nobody had been vaccinated and that would count.

            "our latest rates we are ahead of the US". Well that might, or might not, be true but even if it was we still got to the level on the graph shown 3 months later than they did.

            "stupidity signing up to brexit". What would have had him do? The UK had a referendum and the majority voted for Brexit. Was that stupid? Of course it was, at least in my opinion but they did it and that was that. I think that the New Zealand public have down stupid things in referenda and elections but I wouldn't think that if I was the GG I would have been justified in refusing to accept them.

            • Tricledrown 5.1.1.2.1.1

              So Alwyn the UK and US infection rate in the millions the death rate between the 2 countries nearly 1 million. Even with nearly 70% of people people immunized in the UK 200 plus people are dying a day 10s of thousands still getting infected.

            • Tricledrown 5.1.1.2.1.2

              Alwyn the bottom 25 states with the lowest rates of vaccination all Republican controlled states all less than 50% fully vaccinated on sept 2 mayo clinic stats

        • gsays 5.1.1.3

          Hip hip hooray!

        • Tricledrown 5.1.1.4

          We could have had a much higher rate of vaccination if we had used less safe vaccines with much lower efficacy.

          Pfizer has a efficacy rate of 88% against Delta AstraZeneca 60% against Delta.

          No doubt you would be happy with the Astra Zeneca vaccine.

          Not all is as it seems.

          Then there is the length of the vaccines effectiveness us having the vaccine later means we will be protected further into the future than those who went in early.

          • KJT 5.1.1.4.1

            Australian friends are hunting for providers to get the Phizer doses, while Astra Zenica ones go to waste.

            Good move here deciding on the best single vaccine and using it.

    • Treetop 5.2

      Collins will want the credit for higher vaccination numbers.

    • I Feel Love 5.3

      ‘Death is horrible but let’s put it in perspective. There are 8 million people who can’t choose what to do with their free time.’ – the NSW premier.

      • tc 5.3.1

        Gladyator needs to just STFU now and consider her exit plan as this is all on her.

      • KJT 5.3.2

        After stuffing up the Covid reponse, for both NZ and Australia. Scomao and Gladys should be charged.

        An frightening example however, of what could have been with NACT in charge.

    • Herodotus 5.4

      Pity it took an outbreak to get this result with a ramping up in vaccination rates, if we had been achieving greater numbers earlier this current outbreak may not have been as it is. So you are right it IS politically inconvenient. There are no winners in what has been a slow roll out rate, as we can see by this lock down.

      • Incognito 5.4.1

        It would be an even greater pity if they hadn’t taken the opportunity to ramp it up – hit the iron while it is hot. The outbreak would not have been prevented anyway, in all likelihood.

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126223967/covid19-84-of-community-cases-were-unvaccinated-12-had-one-dose

        • Herodotus 5.4.1.1

          Are you for real “taken the opportunity to ramp it up”. Just as well then that the outbreak happened so that it has been ramped up. Also that there now is discussion about making an effort to jab essential workers, Aucklanders and those that are more vulnerable like the working poor, as if any one with a little common sense would not have worked that out previously when we were in a COVID lull.

          Until we find out how the outbreak happened we cannot say that it was preventable.

          • Incognito 5.4.1.1.1

            Yes, I was deadly serious. Due to the outbreak, there is huge pressure on health staff for testing and looking after positive cases and patients. On top of that, they had to deal with a huge ramp up of vaccination efforts under Level 4 lockdown – these efforts were temporarily halted because they had to work out how to do this safely under L4. It is the appropriate response under the circumstances, from their and my PoV.

            The outbreak happened because someone in the community became infected unwittingly and spread it around. I’m talking about the spreading around in the community given that you mentioned vaccination rates and the ramping up. You haven’t read my link, have you? Pity.

      • Tricledrown 5.4.2

        Australia has a problem with the AstraZeneca vaccine which has only a 60% efficacy rate.So While its vaccination rates in NSW is ramping up Quickly it may not be enough even at 70% to prevent hospitals being overloaded as well as the numbers dying.

        So far Pfizer at 88% efficacy is giving NZ better and safer coverage to a wider portion of the population.

      • bwaghorn 5.4.3

        Bullshit I wa in a cue a mile long in the 1st week of lockdown for mine we had all booked before the outbreak.

      • KJT 5.4.4

        You really think the ramping up could have happened, in three weeks, if it hadn't already been prepared for and planned

    • Gabby 5.5

      Did Tonga do the royal family and friends, and leave it at that?

  6. Anker 6

    OR the Daily Mail and other news website such as the New York Post have utterly slandered Darren, in which case I am sure she will take legal action.

    people had said the Wi Spa incident was a hoax and there was no trans women in the women’s area, naked with their penis out.

    The point I wanted to make at the time, but didn’t was that protesters often use all sorts of gimmicks, street theatre etc to get a point across.

    The point is whether this is a hoax or not, this is what self ID will allow. Any male can identify as a woman, and gain access to sex based spaces, such as toilets, change rooms and day spas. My understanding is under the proposed legislation women’s spas, gyms, pools etc, would have problems challenging this, because the birth certificate would not register that the person was born male. it would likely have to go to court.

    males are overwhelming the most likely to commit sex offences.. There is research to suggest the trans gender women have the same pattern of offending as men and trans men have the same pattern of offending as women (I can provide a link if required)

    I assume we are all adults on the Standards. We have a responsibility to safeguard women and girls.

    BTW according to the report Darren has complained of trans gender harassment

  7. Sacha 7

    Seems timely.

    • francesca 7.1

      Is there evidence that US feminists have not and will not be opposing the abortion law?

      Its not a matter of either /or

      Luckily for transwomen they will never have to face the pain of an unwanted pregnancy or be barred from an abortion

      • Treetop 7.1.1

        Or experience a pregnancy through rape. The figure is estimated at 5% for fertile woman.

        When I read that Texas wants to stop an abortion at 6 weeks I started to think of all the obstacles that this has.

      • arkie 7.1.2

        Luckily for transwomen they will never have to face the pain of an unwanted pregnancy or be barred from an abortion

        Transmen and some non-binary people will.

        • Anker 7.1.2.1

          That is an important point Arkie…..as trans men have female biology.

          Do I hear a defeaning silence of the issue of the transwomen in the Wi Spa and how this relates to a piece of legislation in NZ, which will allow the same scenario for women and female children?

          Again I ask, where is the safeguarding of women and children.

          I believe if Darren wasn't Trans, people would be outraged that a cis gender male was legally entitled to access a women's spa and be naked with his penis out….

          And despite the proposed legislation the NZ media don't carry this story.

        • francesca 7.1.2.2

          Yes, Arkie, indeed, biology will out, no matter which gender one thinks one is

          • arkie 7.1.2.2.1

            gender =/= biology.

            All trans people are deserving of protection from discrimination despite what some people may think of their identity.

            • Anker 7.1.2.2.1.1
              • I agree Arkie all Trans gender people are deserving of protection from discrimination.
              • I have no problem with who people identify as (although with children and young teens I am vehemently opposed to puberty blockers automatically being prescribed).
              • But I prioritise biology over gender identity ideology and I am posting about the Wi Spa case to raise the alert about the implications of gender self ID. That it will give all men access to women’s private spaces, such as change room where women and girls are vulnerable. The self ID Bill will enable two paraphernalia, vouyerism and exhibitionism, all for the benefit of a tiny minority of people
              • arkie

                I prioritise biology over gender identity ideology

                This is called biological essentialism. Doesn't align well with protecting trans people from discrimination.

                • Anker
                  • But allowing gender ideology to trump biological reality doesn’t work for women and girls, who are the vast majority. The examples I have given you are change rooms, sports, spas, women’s prison shelters.
                  • I am not sure how this discriminates against a small minority of trans people. Unisex toilets AS WELL as women’s only toilets, special, separate wings in male prisons for trans women, an open sporting competition for everybody, including trans women AND separate competitions for women and girls, because after all it is bodies that play sport not identities.

                  I am sorry that this may not be what trans women want, but I think there are ways of catering for them, that doesn’t impact biological women’s right as a group who are at risk for biological males patterns of offending and the biological advantages biological men have in sports

                  • arkie

                    You are saying trans people should be excluded from areas that they legally have access to because of how you identify their gender. This is discriminatory.

                    Shops, businesses and other public places can’t discriminate against you

                    Human Rights Act 1993, ss 42, 44

                    It’s illegal for a business to refuse to deal with you or to treat you less favourably than other people because of your sex, gender or sexual orientation. This includes not just shops and restaurants and so on, but also banks, loan companies, and finance or insurance companies.

                    It’s also illegal for any business to refuse to let you enter their premises if it’s a place that’s otherwise open to the public – like a cinema or bus.

                    Even if there are separate toilet or changing facilities for men and women (this is legally allowed), you’re allowed to use the one that best matches your sex or gender identity.

                    https://communitylaw.org.nz/community-law-manual/chapter-8-gender-and-sexuality/discrimination-based-on-sex-gender-or-sexual-orientation/access-to-shops-businesses-and-public-places/

                    • Anker

                      You are completely misunderstanding me Arkie and I apologise for whatever my part is in that. I believe transgender people have absolute rights to be in public places such as cafes, shops businesses etc. Of course trans should have the same access to these places as all of us, and I haven't heard of anyone trying to keep them out, but if they have that is not o.k.

                      Did you know the Huma Rights Act section 43 allows for separate public facilities for each sex on the grounds of public safety and decency. section 49 of the human rights act spedifies separate categories in sport and schools and accommodation as well in some places of work e.g. female examinations (we have a right to request being examine by a women.

                      In this debate, womens rights are completely overlooked unless women on this site remind others about them.

                    • arkie

                      In this debate, womens rights are completely overlooked unless women on this site remind others about them.

                      If you consider the category of 'women' to exclude trans women then I can see how you might think that.

            • francesca 7.1.2.2.1.2

              of course all people should have the same protections from discrimination

              Not sure if you are trying to say gender equals biology

              There we part company

              • arkie

                People need different protections from discrimination because different people are discriminated against for different reasons.

                Gender does not equal biology.

                There have been several different feminist theories about how gender is constructed and performed.

                • Anker

                  So Arkie, do you have anything to say about protection for women and girls under gender self ID?

                  • arkie

                    Women and girls are people too, so deserve protection from discrimination also. I disagree that gender self ID endangers that.

                    • Anker

                      And yet the Wi Spa is a classic example of how gender self id does endanger women and girls.

                      When the women confronted the receptionist at the Wi Spa they said that its the law, they have to let trans gender women into the women's section.

                      Men are self id in the UK to get access to women's prisons and the same in the USA.

                      There is a huge issue going on in the US with sporting competitions at schools where transgender women are competing against biological women, winning medals and schlorships over biological women.There is a massive fight going on through the courts over trans women accessing female bathrooms and change rooms in schools. These are just a few examples.

                    • Cinder []

                      Regarding Wi Spa.

                      It has a long history as a pro trans space. This is well known by the areas trans community.

                      The complainants online footprint is full of MAGA / Christian / anti-trans messaging.

                      The whole affair is akin to someone going to a nude beach and being aghast at seeing nudity.

                      This has been brought to your attention before.

                      It is a blatant attempt to destroy a pro-trans space and further the right wing culture wars.

                      The person in question looks to be a sex offender, but they are a single individual

                      You are drawing a very long bow and if we turn your argument around then I would feel comfortable stating that SUFW are all terfs.

                      Get it?

                      Probably not…

                    • Foreign Waka

                      As a female, I protest against having biological male classified as female and my biololgy being seen as "it" in the process. Whether in a changing room, spa or any other venue where I want to be exclusively separated by biological gender. I and 50% of the population want to have a say in such matters.

                      This has nothing to do with what gender anybody wants choose to be the best fit for them for whatever reason but a lot with those who are identifying with their biology. Having to defend the right to privacy, space and rights of women (biological) seems very wrong to me.

                      Every person needs to feel safe and secure within their environment. Our laws secure this.

        • Treetop 7.1.2.3

          Transmen and some non-binary people will.

          Politicians need to base abortion legislation on research and representation from all genders.

          • Anker 7.1.2.3.1

            Cinder, a law that allows trans gender people to self ID opens up women's spaces to biological males. I believe most women are not comfortable with that and people should not be comfortable about biological males being naked in change rooms with girls or teenagers.

            I am not right wing and neither are a lot of the women who object to allowing trans women into some spaces that have be previously preserved for biological women.

            If Trans people want a pro trans space I would encourage them to seek it out, but at times biology matters and it matters a great deal.

            A recent study in Ireland, where they have self ID has shown that most people object to transwomen using women only toilets.

            The person looks to be a sex offender (Wi Spa) and the majority of sex offenders are men. The trouble for women is we can't tell the difference….. even with males we know well. So in a space where women and girls are particularly vulnerable i.e in a change room or a spa where people are naked, I believe we have got good reason to keep the space for biological women only.

            These women at the Wi Spa were traumatized. Do you care about that? It sounds like victim blaming on your behalf "what were they expecting going into the wi spa. It is quite feasible these women didn't know or thought trans friendly meant something different from biological males in their spa space.

            You can call me a terf or a Karen all you like. To me that suggests you don't have very good arguements.

            • Cinder 7.1.2.3.1.1

              You obviously missed the point.

              It IS a pro-trans space.

              Which you "claim" to support.

              But you have allowed yourself to become a willing idiot of the right wing Christian bigots.

              The complainant very obviously went there to be outraged. As I said, look at their digital footprint. This is the third time you have been told to look more deeply into the issue and you refuse to do so.

              Nish Kumar has stated the problems with your logic more succinctly than I care to bother with.

              "There are a lot of people, most of them cisgendered heterosexual men, who say things like ‘Oh, if you let trans women use women’s bathrooms then they’ll do sex attacks,'” he noted.

              “Now there’s a few problems with that… firstly to be fair, they don’t say ‘do sex attacks’. Secondly, trans people are overwhelmingly the victims of sexual violence more so than they are the perpetrators of it by an unbelievably large amount.

              “And thirdly, do you honestly think that if there’s someone out there willing to commit a sex attack… if there’s someone out there, regardless of their gender identity, who’s done the logical gymnastics required [to] perpetrate the worst thing one human can do to another – do you think they’re being put off by a sign on a door?”

              https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/08/24/nish-kumar-ricky-gervais-trans-comedy/

              • The complainant very obviously went there to be outraged.

                That's not obvious to me at all. But even if it were true, so what? The fact there was a man in the women-only space with his cock out remains unchanged by that.

    • Timely? Because there's reason to imagine feminists won't defend abortion rights in the USA? Or what? This person seems delusional.

  8. Anker 8
    1. Hear, hear Francesca.

    so that is your only response Sasha? To divert from the issue and make it about what feminists aren’t doing. Btw you run the risk of looking like someone who is telling women what to do

    if you go to SUFW website you can click on a tab and find out about activism theses women have been engaged in over many years as feminists, going back to the 70s including one woman who ran the SOSservice to get women to Australia who needed abortions as they were illegal at the time

    • Sacha 8.1

      Priorities, Karen.

      • Anker 8.1.1

        Sacha referring to me as Karen makes it look like you have no good or compelling arguements as to why some spaces need to be keep for biological women…….

        I decide my own priorities thank you.

        • Sacha 8.1.1.1

          Sorry I must have inadvertently unscrambled your username while working on other stuff and typing in a hurry. Then my internet connection went down.

          Was just repeating the point of the tweet I posted as concisely as I could. I have nothing more to say to you on the topic. No point. I hope you find a better solution for your fear than restricting other people's right to live.

  9. vto 9

    The Taliban Texans – more extreme and fundamentalist than the Taliban Afghans.

    Given the size of Texas and the US, it is these American extremists who are more of a threat to the world than Afghanistan.

    Read this dissenting Supreme Court judge's opinion here… it should wake us all up to what is continuing to unfold in this out-of-control nation… it is frightening… "bounty hunters" – akin to brown shirts…

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/02/sonia-sotomayor-dissent-texas-abortion-ban-law-supreme-court

    • tc 9.1

      FBI stats on internal (us citizens) v external initiated terror incidents have shown for a long time what a fkd up place it is.

      Abortion, anti govt (McVeigh), wacos etc

  10. Tricledrown 10

    Victoria and NSW look like they are giving up on elimination now looking at containment and vaccination.

    With vaccination Australia is using the Asra Zeneca and Pfizer Vaccines .The Pfizer vaccine has an 88% efficacy rate the Astra Zeneca around 60% efficacy so NZ's choice to stick with the Phizer vaccine is a very good choice .

    Now if we don't eliminate we are in for a rough ride till Chistmas and will need to wait it out till we reach high vaccination rates and on top of that keep socially distancing ,wearing masks, and practising good hygiene habits.

    School reopening for younger students could be delayed as trial results for vaccinating those 5 to 12 aren't expected till the end of October.

    Our hospital system is not up to coping with any major outbreaks as it is already stretched

    So my heart goes out to all those in Auckland you are doing the whole country proud.

    Like Winston Churchill said we will fight this virus on the beaches in the supermarkets with our kiwi team spirit.

  11. Cinder 11

    You obviously missed the point.

    It IS a pro-trans space.

    Which you "claim" to support.

    But you have allowed yourself to become a willing idiot of the right wing Christian bigots.

    The complainant very obviously went there to be outraged. As I said, look at their digital footprint. This is the third time you have been told to look more deeply into the issue and you refuse to do so.

    Nish Kumar has stated the problems with your logic more succinctly than I care to bother with.

    "There are a lot of people, most of them cisgendered heterosexual men, who say things like ‘Oh, if you let trans women use women’s bathrooms then they’ll do sex attacks,'” he noted.

    “Now there’s a few problems with that… firstly to be fair, they don’t say ‘do sex attacks’. Secondly, trans people are overwhelmingly the victims of sexual violence more so than they are the perpetrators of it by an unbelievably large amount.

    “And thirdly, do you honestly think that if there’s someone out there willing to commit a sex attack… if there’s someone out there, regardless of their gender identity, who’s done the logical gymnastics required [to] perpetrate the worst thing one human can do to another – do you think they’re being put off by a sign on a door?”

    https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/08/24/nish-kumar-ricky-gervais-trans-comedy/

  12. Anker 12

    I support trans gender women having their own spaces in certain settings that have been traditionally preserved for biological women, such as change rooms, prisons, sport etc. I guess it might be a bit like burglary. If you keep your doors locked that is one more obstacle the burglar has to deal with, but if the doors are open then opportunism may prevail.

    I am aware of a study recently and I can post the link that sexual assaults offences are more likely to occur in unisex toilets, change rooms as was the case recently at an Ak gym. The guy managed to get a camera into the change room to film women.

    In allowing biological males into our changes rooms you are giving carte blache for biological males to commit two illegal acts, vouyerism and exhibitionism. It is not just the threat of sexual assault women are afraid of. some women, teens are girls are quite modest in change rooms that are women only. Imagine what that will feel like for them with males who identify as females.

    Not all men are rapists or sexual offenders. But trans women have the same sexual offending patterns as biological males. Trans men same as women.

    As I have said earlier when I am called a Karen or a "willing idiot of the Christian right" it just confirms for me that your arguements aren’t that great. Playing the woman not the ball. No matter

    • Cinder 12.1

      Your reading comprehension isn't that great is it.

      Where have I called you a Karen?

      Once again, look at the complainant in the Wi Spa. You are being used. It IS a trans space.

      The man in the Auckland gym was NOT posing as a woman. He also filmed men. He also filmed a couple having sex in the changing rooms.

      Any complaints about the couple having sex in the changing room?

      No one is given carte blanche for their crimes, they can still be prosecuted.

      • Anker 12.1.1
        • No it was Sasha who called me a Karen on this thread twice.
        • I would prefer it if you cut the denigrating remarks “your reading comprehension isn’t very good” and stuck to playing the ball not the woman.
        • the point about the man in the Ak gym was to back up my claim that sexual offences are more likely to occur in unisex spaces. I knew the perpetrator wasn’t trans and I never said he was.
        • yes I would not be happy if I was aware people were having sex in a change room where I was changing and I would be exceedingly unhappy if they were not behind closed doors in the change room. However I think that is not really what this debate is about.

        the women at the wi spa were shocked and traumatised to see a male with his penis out, who turns out to be a sex offender, in their space. I saw the video and the young Asian women filmed, who was asking for her money back, looked shocked and uncomfortable IMO. The wi spa cannot have made it clear enough to these women that in the woman’s section, they could expect to see biological males.

        • if any man can identify as a woman and change their birth certificate accordingly, then legally they have a case of entitlement to be in a women’s change room In a change room it is almost impossible not to expose part of your body or to notice others bodies. Getting charged does not ameliorate what has happened. Women, girls and teenshave been observed or have observed (even if they haven’t meant to).
        • from my point of view it defies belief that people appear unable to appreciate that it is a problem having biological males being able to access women, teens and girls changing rooms, spas etc, where women, teens and girls will be in a state of undress
        • Sacha 12.1.1.1

          Twice? Once, thank you. And I explained it was a moment of neurodiversity. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

          • Anker 12.1.1.1.1

            Ok well Sacha, I get we can all make mistakes. All I said was I would prefer it if people did use these terms.

            But I accept your apology and that it was a geniune mistake.

            And for tongiht I am happy to let Foreign Waka have the final work, unless others comment.

            And sure no worries if you don't want to engage in this debate.

            The MSM are not doing there job in reporting on this legislation and my opinion is it is being introduced by stealth. So I want to high light the problematic nature of the legislation.

      • Foreign waka 12.1.2

        You know, there is a point of no return. Biological women are by nature designed in a certain way. Those who identify with this want their space, their rights and their privacy where it fits. If someone, anyone decides to say they are a different gender, its all good. But please don't march into a changing room etc. pretending that everybody else has to "just go with it". Sorry, no. By taking away the right of every other person will not by default make one persons right of expression valid to override everybody else.

        Lets say on the basis of rights: If you enter a room of non smokers and light a cigarette what do you think that a/ the response will be and b/ will the argument of acceptance by default by identifying with some of the people in the room being smokers, stick? Who is right?

  13. AB 13

    Pre-emptive apologies for sending anyone to a rag like the Daily Mail – but this story on suicide rates reducing during Covid lockdown comes as no surprise. From memory our own data showed a similar result. Yet we still hear constantly about how lockdown is bad for mental health. Obviously there are mental health effects that fall short of actual suicide, so you could argue that more study is required to see if the same reduction is true across the full range of mental distress.

    We're now awaiting convincing hypotheses to explain it. Personally I'm taking it as an indicator that not going to work (or at least conventional, non-autonomous, employer-dominated work), while still having financial security, might be good for us.

    • Ad 13.1

      At work we are finding the mental toll pretty high and putting a lot of time and resource into it.

      It's somewhat better now that most of us can work either at Level 3 or as essential workers.

      We brought in Mike King and the other construction mental health providers in May, and some of those disciplines are helping.

    • Nic the NZer 13.2

      I think suicide rates often fall during periods of recession, though often with contrary high profile anecdotes.

      I put that down to giving people something external to focus on (worry about) over their personal issues.

    • Cricklewood 13.3

      So, best theory i've heard raises lack of opportunity. I'll explain as best I can but wont be as eloquent as it was put to me by a specialist in the field.

      In essence many who are suicidal esp Teens and Men with children really dont want to 'hurt' their families in such close proximity which is essentially what lockdown provides hence you get a drop in suicide amongst these groups.

    • Incognito 13.4

      Yes, our own numbers were down, slightly.

      "Throughout this year there has been unhelpful and irresponsible public commentary on the effect COVID-19 would have on the suicide rate," Marshall said.

      "During the first lockdown period, I said it was unhelpful to release figures for such a short time frame, as it is nearly impossible to draw sound conclusions, nor do I believe such public discourse is helpful to people in distress."

      Robinson agreed the rumours and speculation was "unhelpful and counterproductive to suicide prevention".

      https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/08/new-zealand-s-suicide-rate-drops-to-three-year-low.html

  14. Anker 14
    • AB agree with all your points. More research to understand and confirm this phenomena and I think your hunch, ie no work but pay is a good one.
  15. Morrissey 15

    Three egregious examples of linguistic crime.

    (This is a Daisycutter Sports Inc. language alert for Friday 3/9/21.)

    1.) Yesterday afternoon, RNZ news covered a man who escaped from MIQ. The newsreader informed listeners that "the man's family reported them missing…"

    2.) At today's 1 p.m. briefing, Grant Robertson informed the nation about the payments for the wage subsidy scheme. He burbled: "The criteria is the same…"

    3.) The 6 p.m. TVNZ news report on this afternoon's tragic incident at Lynnmall included this gem: "They were an individual known to the police."

    Compiled by Serena Sopwith-Fotherington, for Daisycutter Sports Inc.

    • Sacha 15.1

      Evolving language threatens some people.

      • Morrissey 15.1.1

        That wasn't evolution when Grant Robertson used the word criteria wrongly, that was carelessness or ignorance.

        And whatever drove those hapless slaves at RNZ to use such absurd pronouns–“the man’s family reported them missing”, for pity’s sake—it certainly was not evolution; it was no doubt a directive from RNZ management—the same people who have instigated news updates and station promos on the half-hour. frown

        • Sacha 15.1.1.1

          Young people are already using 'them' and 'they' regularly. It may threaten older people, like all language change does.

          • Morrissey 15.1.1.1.1

            Young people are already using 'them' and 'they' regularly.

            Wrong. Young people use those pronouns in the clear and unambiguous way that they've always been used. The only people who use "them" or "they" to refer to one person are those who have been instructed by managers to do so. People like newsreaders at Radio New Zealand.

            It may threaten older people, like all language change does.

            What "language change" are you talking about? The vast majority of people want their communications to be clear and unambiguous, and they employ the clear and unambiguous words that make that possible.

            • arkie 15.1.1.1.1.1

              Recent surveys from the US and UK show that not only are 18 to 24-year-olds more commonly identifying as LGBTQIA+, but that they are also becoming much more fluid in the expression of their sexuality and gender.

              “I’m hopeful that with the generational changes and increased awareness of sexuality and gender in society, over time it will become easier and easier for people to be open about that, get the support they need, and eventually be in a place where it is really normalised and people are treated equally regardless of who they are.”

              “It’s something for us to celebrate that we are coming to a time where it is so much easier for people to live their truth and be who they are.”

              https://www.renews.co.nz/gen-z-are-way-less-likely-to-be-straight/

  16. Anker 16

    Morrisey, really shocking about the attack. I hope everyone injuried recovers well.

    And yes, I agree about egregious examples of linguistic crime.

    A clanger for me was when Ashley Bloomfield talked about pregnant people

    • arkie 16.1

      A clanger for me was when Ashley Bloomfield talked about pregnant people

      Did you not agree with me up thread that trans men and non-binary people can also be pregnant?

      • weka 16.1.1

        "women, trans men and non-binary people"

        It's not hard to be inclusive.

        • arkie 16.1.1.1

          Or; pregnant people.

          Because that phrase already includes all those people?

          • weka 16.1.1.1.1

            What's wrong with "women, trans men and non-binary people"? It's inclusive of all, I'm curious what problem you see with using that?

            • arkie 16.1.1.1.1.1

              Nothing's wrong with it, and I don't see a problem with using it, but I also don't see a problem with a health official at a national health briefing using "pregnant people" for brevity or whatever. Language is good like that.

              • weka

                here's the problem.

                Nearly all 'pregnant people' are women who see themselves as women. A small percentage are uncomfortable with the term women and want to use something else. That is their right. But taking away women's right to our own language in order to support a small group of people with gender dysphoria* just doesn't make sense. Why would we support one group to have their needs met but not the other? Some women don't care. Many do.

                In health care it's particularly important because public health messaging works best when it meets people culturally. If you remove women's language and don't engage with women in ways that work for them, you lessen public health. This is exactly why trans people also need appropriately framed public health messaging (and many other groups).

                It's weird that women are having this actively removed at the same time as it's being actively increased for other groups. We also know that the same removal isn't happening to men. Whether that's a matter of time or sexism, or both, it's still telling.

                I didn't see what AB said, so this is a general comment, not about his wording/context.

                * people without GD who want such huge social change for other personal reasons need to step up and make the political argument.

                • francesca

                  Thank you Weka

                  You articulate so well the concerns of many women, myself included, you're fair, empathetic and informed

                • arkie

                  But taking away women's right to our own language in order to support a small group of people with gender dysphoria* just doesn't make sense. Why would we support one group to have their needs met but not the other?

                  Is this what's actually happening here really?

                  If your support and respect for trans people ends when you feel like you're 'needs' aren't being met, because of the use of the term 'pregnant people', then that probably says enough.

                  • weka

                    It's a hypocrisy to support trans rights via a certain mechanism and deny that to women at the same time. Unless one believes that women's rights are secondary, in which case it becomes less hypocrisy and more misogyny.

                    "Is this what's actually happening here really?"

                    Yes, this is happening. Women are being told to stop using words specific to being female. It's happening in organisations, public health, and in social settings. Lesbians get banned from lesbian dating apps for saying female only. Women get banned from FB groups for using terms like 'lady parts'. Online health websites remove women's language and replace it with gender neutral, but men's health issues still talk about male bodies. Women get cancelled for insisting on talking about female bodies. Women get called transphobic for talking about their periods.

                    Menstruators, chest feeders, uterus havers, there are lots of words in use now that describe women in the most reductionist and dehumanising terms. Women are objecting and here you are arguing that we're being unfair to trans people.

                    There are lots of examples now. If you are unaware of this, please educate yourself.

                    • arkie

                      What is happening here is that I was confused why a commenter could agree that transmen and NB people also can and do get pregnant and give birth and still find 'pregnant people' to be a problem. Women, transmen and NB people are all equally included in the term 'pregnant people', there's no hierarchy in that collective noun, and I certainly find it baffling that 'people' is considered dehumanising; humans are people, people are human!?

                      Baffling.

                      As I have said up thread if you think the category of 'women' and 'womens rights' exclude transwomen then I can see how you would feel that way.

                    • weka

                      Ok, so you believe that 'pregnant people' is a good term to use despite the problems pointed out about that. You haven't addressed those problems, just reiterated that you personally find the term good.

                      That you don't see a problem doesn't mean there isn't one.

                      And yes, many women, probably most, don't believe that trans women are literally women and will reject the idea when it is explained fully. Most women also want trans women to be ok in society, so this isn't a transphobic position, it's a position that recognises the conflict between trans rights and women's rights.

                      This yougov poll looked at various aspects of trans people in society and how British attitudes. Not the bottom section.

                      https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/07/16/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

                    • arkie

                      Equally that you see a problem doesn't mean there is one. Language allows us to use multiple words and phrases to mean the same thing.

                      I am well aware of your objections, they have often be reiterated at length on this very forum, and the calls to educate yourself go both ways. To keep it relevant to NZ:

                      https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/well-good/teach-me/111011211/transgender-rights-debate-separating-the-facts-from-the-fiction

                    • weka

                      Equally that you see a problem doesn't mean there is one.

                      True, but I'm not relying on my own belief, it's *very easy to see large numbers of women saying it's not ok to remove our language to describe ourselves. Further, I've explained the reasons, which you seem to be ignoring.

                      What do you think I should be educating myself on specifically?

                    • arkie

                      It's not just my belief that "pregnant people" includes all people who can become or are pregnant though, it's what the words literally mean! It's your belief there are problems with using the term "pregnant people", that you may see it reinforced by others doesn't stop it from being an opinion. No-one in this thread, least of all me, has said you aren't able to describe yourself however you like using whatever language you want, just pointing out nongendered collective nouns exist and mean the same thing as their synonyms!

        • Anker 16.1.1.2

          A lot of women object to the changes in language that are being imposed on them.

          People who menstruate, chest feeders, birthing units, pregnanat people.

          How come its o.k. for Trans people to insist we all use their language, pro nouns etc, but when we don't like the changes that are being made that's o.k.?

  17. Anker 17
    • Only biological femalescan give birth
    • Many women find it insulting to be referred to as a pregnant person…..

    • arkie 17.1

      Those women aren't the only people being referred to as a pregnant person though; as discussed, trans men and non-binary people can and do give birth, so, to be inclusive, the term pregnant people is used.

    • Cinder 17.2

      Science says you are wrong. Again…

      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19155947/

      • Anker 17.2.1

        that is very interesting. The number of people who have capacity to produce Ova and Sprem is infitestamly small. Seem only 11 reported out of what 7 billon people. I couldn't access the full article, but assume she had a uterus to carry the child. People born with mixed sexed charateristics can usually fall more readily into male or female.

        She was referred to as a mother and she produced an ova.

        There will always be aberations in science. The exception that proves the rule.

        • Cinder 17.2.1.1

          Your lack of understanding of this means dialogue with you is pointless.

          So far you have missed the point Wi Spa is a trans space. A place for trans people. Women are welcome there, but need to understand its a trans space instead of kicking off when they encounter a trans individual.

          Now you have seen a scientific study and assumed the sample size was every person on the planet.

          That's truly astonishingly dumb.

          As Sasha said, keep living in fear. But try and be better.

          These people are not the threat you think they are.

          • Sacha 17.2.1.1.1

            I do not want anyone to live in fear – they tend to harm other people that way. But peace takes work.

          • Anker 17.2.1.1.2

            One of the few international studies done show that Trans women have the same pattern of offending as men.

            I don't believe Trans women are all preditors at all. The problem for women is we can't tell which men are safe and which aren't.

    • solkta 17.3

      Bloomfield was not talking about a specific person.

      • Anker 17.3.1

        A lot of women object to the changes in language that are being imposed on them. We are being required to change our language but many us what to keep our language because ithe changes are de-humanizing and decontructs what it means to be a women.

        People who menstruate, chest feeders, birthing units, pregnanat people.

        How come its o.k. for Trans people to insist we all use their language, pro nouns etc, but when we don't like the changes that are being made that's o.k.?

        • Cinder 17.3.1.1

          Your lack of understanding of this means dialogue with you is pointless.

          So far you have missed the point Wi Spa is a trans space. A place for trans people. Women are welcome there, but need to understand its a trans space instead of kicking off when they encounter a trans individual.

          Now you have seen a scientific study and assumed the sample size was every person on the planet.

          That's truly astonishingly dumb.

          As Sasha said, keep living in fear. But try and be better.

          These people are not the threat you think they are.

  18. Cinder 18

    Your lack of understanding of this means dialogue with you is pointless.

    So far you have missed the point Wi Spa is a trans space. A place for trans people. Women are welcome there, but need to understand its a trans space instead of kicking off when they encounter a trans individual.

    Now you have seen a scientific study and assumed the sample size was every person on the planet.

    That's truly astonishingly dumb.

    As Sasha said, keep living in fear. But try and be better.

    These people are not the threat you think they are.

    • francesca 18.1

      If thats the case (Wi spa being a trans space,) I'm puzzled why they would need to record trans people using the space

      A local LGBTQ+ paper reported that a spa employee said there were no trans patrons with appointments that day, leading some to question whether the incident was staged.

      Patrons would have to disclose they were trans ? In their own space?

    • Anker 18.2

      Your lack of being able to acknowledge or having any concept that in certain setting biological sex matters. That in the NZ Human Rights Act 1993, they specidfically state that public facilities should be kept separate for the sexes to preserve public decency and safety. There are other clauses in the act around sport schooling and accommodation that allow and preserve seperate spaces for women.

      I have heard no empathy from you for the women and girls in the Wi Spa who saw the trans sex offender expose himself. All I have heard from you is its a trans space. Interestingly Darrens defence was he was being harrrassed for being Trans.

      The study on hermaphrodites giving birth is about people who are now called intersex. The incidence of people who have both female and male genitalia is rare and is not what this debate is about. I am talking about males who identitfy as women.

      I don't think anyone would think it is appropriate for a man to be in changing room naked with him penis out around women and girls (sex offender or not). This is what this thread started off about.

      Saying I am "astonishingly dumb" is yet again another insult you have used towards me. As I said before when I get these insults when I discuss this issue, mostly I see it as a sign of poor arguement from the commenters who oppose my view. I have never had these insults before on The Standard. No matter.

      "Keep living in fear". Yes biological women often live in fear. Fear of walking alone, day and night, fear of finding oneself alone in a toilet or change room. We are smaller in statue, have less muscle mass and women know that most biological males could easily over powered them. Males are unlikely to fully appreciate this.

      • solkta 18.2.1

        That in the NZ Human Rights Act 1993, they specidfically state that public facilities should be kept separate for the sexes to preserve public decency and safety.

        No it doesn't. It says that they can be not that they should be.

        (1)Section 42 shall not prevent the maintenance of separate facilities for each sex on the ground of public decency or public safety.

        https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0082/60.0/DLM304617.html

        • Anker 18.2.1.1

          What do you think "sall not prevent the maintenance of separate facilities etc mean Solkta.

          What do you think it means that trans activists argue for the use for example of women only faciities specifically change rooms for trans women?

          • solkta 18.2.1.1.1

            FFS it is written in English and i have already said. But i will spell it out since you struggle so.

            Section 42 says that you can't exclude people from spaces that are open to the public. Section 43 contains the exceptions to Section 42. So if i am operating a spa and i have separate facilities for each sex then i am not in breach of section 42. If i don't have separate facilities for each sex then i am also not in breach of section 42.

            So, as i said, the Act does not as you claim state that public facilities should be kept separate for the sexes but rather that they can be.

            • Anker 18.2.1.1.1.1

              Point taken. So they can be kept separate and many many women want it that way.

              I hope Trans women will respect that and find ways to have things work o.k. for them

    • francesca 18.3

      Cinder, there is absolutely nothing on the LA Wi Spa website that suggests it is a fundamentally trans space where women are welcome but need to understand its a trans space .

      They talk of dedicated Womens and Mens spaces, so what gives you the idea Wi Spa is foremost a trans space , rather than a space which is legally required to admit trans people?

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