Key is not the only one at fault here, Goff is playing his game, and the media chase ratings rather than fair democracy. But he can lead on this or he can diss us and try and do his own thing.
Several things lately have made me wonder how genuine you are in representing the people that elected you. Your ordinary blokeness seems to be deserting you, and that could lead to my support deserting you.
Key and Goff can pick and choose who they will debate with. And we can pick and choose who to vote for.
Er, no. Both have obviously got their heads around MMP, Labour formally and National by virtue of their electorate deals with ACT and United Future. Goff has said his major reservation is coat-tailing. National’s major reservation is that Labour might win.
MMP does not mean coalition deals or whoring and supply agreements.
It is not a de-facto FPP agenda driven race to do as much damage as possible before the next election. We have not yet had a MMP government and i hope to see at least one before i shake loose this mortal coil.
What is a MMP government?
It is so simple. A group of people who a whole bunch of electorates said represent them,
sit in a big room. Nominations are put forward for PM. A vote is taken. continued untill resolved. The PM nominates a cabinet, votes, objections, votes etc for a week or so maybe then reality transpires, things settle down and just like that we have a MMP Government.
It is a group of elected people in a room, drawing bills from ballots and debating them untill consensus is achieved and the process of Parliamentary Democracy is implemented fully.
If it takes eight months to agree on a tax cut it takes eight months. If your pet roading project gets suspended due to the Country’s sudden desire to assist the victims of , i don’t know, say an Earthquake, then the Government presents a choice for the Parliament to decide.
it is not the agenda of a Party but the decisions of a Parliament that should dictate a Nation’s future,
I’d like to see something like that too. It won’t happen, unless the current status quo is given a big shakeup, and that will only happen if voters initiate it.
It is up to us. It is up to the people! It is that simple. Some wise words were said in a cheesy movie many many years ago “no-one said it was going to be easy, at least no-one said it to me”
We must take control of our own Democracy and stop allowing the dictatorial manifestos of bankers to populate the stromwaters of history with our children’s futures
The switch from aggressive oppositional politics to representative politics. No single party leads and the bills are determined by the populace and actually debated upon their merits rather than the closed ideology of a party.
-and this from, according to TVOR, a rabid right wing nutter. Nutter? well that depends on which of my friends you speak to. But if i am right wing either the left is really in a lot more trouble than any of us ever realised or the right is getting desperate for membership đ
Yesterday, a friend send me a link to a doco called Defamation. It is a film made by a young Israeli Jewish director called Yoav Shami and in the film he poses the question; What is Anti-Semitism today?
And I found it to be an honest journey into one of the most controversial subjects on our planet today. From young Israelis travelling to Poland to confront the horrors of the concentration camps and the anti Defamation league, Rabbis in New York and Russia to the Anti Zionist Uri Avnery, and Norman Finkelstein the entire Scala of emotions such as a sense of exceptionalism, pain, anger, grief and the need to progress into the future are being addressed in a thought provoking manner.
Actually, many young Israelis do feel empathy for the victims of their government’s crimes. Thousands of them refuse to “serve” in the IDF, and many Israelis (young and old) go to the Occupied Territories to attempt to prevent some of the depradations of the “settlers”—such as uprooting of their olive trees, burning their crops, and harassing and beating children on their way to school.
It’s not easy, especially when the IDF “soldiers” just stand by, doing nothing, and let bullies like this do what they like…
Phil Goff and Kennedy Graham both – with passing references to notes. Can’t say the same for the seemingly “dutiful” readings from hand-held speeches given by others…
I recently read that Labour MP Grant Robertson describe National’s candidate selection for Epsom as a “stitch-up” at the “expense of the people of Epsom who deserve some respect”.
Anthony Robins hasn’t had a strong opinion on the topic, but he commented recently that he’s starting to come down on the side of âif you canât beat them, join themâ.
Evidently Jim Anderton endorsed the “stitch-up” approach.
I look forward to Grant Robertson withdrawing his scurrilous comments about National’s Epsom candidacy announcements and acknowledging the practices in Eppsom AND Wigram as politics as usual.
So far, this is all I’ve seen in the MSM about Steven being reported to the Speaker of the House for lying.
Two years ago, responding to the written question on whether he had had any such correspondence on the issue of structural separation, Mr Joyce categorically denied it. Now it transpires he “overlooked” a letter sent to him by Mr Reynolds.
Did I mention I’m in bloody good company where it concerns my doubts about the official conspiracy theory of 911?
Here is the first trailer of a doco which will be released in honour of the tenth anniversary of the 911 attacks! 1500 Architects and Engineers speak out. Oh and chemists, Chemistry professors and physicists too!
There will be opportunities to watch the doco in Hamilton, Wellington, Christchurch and Auckland as we mourn those lost as a result of those attacks
I am finally quite intrigued by all this building collapse stuff, and admit to not having looked at it in detail before and in fact skated over the long discussions on this blog. Time to catch up a bit.
Who? and Why? are the big questions. Were explosives used to enhance the actual demolition while the planes were what got everyoneâs attention, the ideological hit so to speak. People with explosives had been apprehended in the basements of the WTC years before I do remember.
It is so counter intuitive to consider that even the yankee imperialists would pull such a stunt in their own backyard.
Funny that you should mention the 93 attacks! Turns out the FBI wanted to bomb the buildings then too. Here is a doco with regards to that event.
They have done it multiple times TM.
Here is Northwoods which was called of. There is the gulf of Tonkin incident which started the Vietnam war. The sinking of the Maine which started the American Spanish war
And yes, it took me about three months after I started reading up on this before I could even begin to contemplate the evil involved in these events if the official Conspiracy theory could not have happened. It was terrifying.
Four years of ridicule pales to absolute insignificance to having to admit to myself that what the US government tried to sell us could not have happened the way they said is did.
this is a publicly available documentary made during the WTC construction. it falls outside of all agendas from any parties involved. It existed unchanged and is the most accurate vehicle to fully grasp the intense construction methods employed in a project designed to withstand multiple strikes from aircraft. Familiarise yourself with the structure. Then re read the official story, and the simple fact that planes, fire damage and jetfuel cannot bring down hundreds of thousands of tonnes of welded and riveted steel.
there are many recent doco’s, see Trev for current lists, i recommend anything by A&E for 9/11 truth and also the recent doco called Zero. The more recent ones deal purely with the science for that is where the answers lay
Are you aware of what was housed there?. Can you stop shitting on the graves of innocent people, it is not funny. There is no conspiracy theory, there is a mountain range of incontravertable fact which destroys the potholes of an official story a thousand times over. If you were told the official story in any other context than the nightly news you would have asked for your money back from the ticket office. Do some research for yourself on one of the most heinous crimes ever perpetrated on the free world. Or do like the look of blood on your hands?
I love the look of blood on my hands, freedom, and I hate it when my stigmata heal. I’m sorry I don’t buy the rightwing 911 fantasy and that upsets you so much. Building 7 collapsed because a larger building fell on it. That’s the story, right there. No domestic conspiracy, no CIA, no black ops, just the most succesful guerilla attack in modern times.
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I appreciate that there are some lefties whose anti-americanism will always make them suckers for this kind of immaturity, but the fact remains that the only people shitting on the graves (as you so diplomatically put it) are the Tea Party types and their dimwitted or wilfully naive overseas followers.Â
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 Ten years on and still not a shred of evidence. And this in the country where even a simple hotel burglary can’t be succesfully carried out without bringing down a government.
TVOR
To make such an ignorant statement only declares to the world that you have not even begun to investigate for yourself any of the data you have been supplied on numerous occasions. Your willingness, and that of many others, to swallow the story is a trauma that societies never fully recover from. Those that remain deaf to the screams of the murdered, will still have to face their own conscience when truth finally defeats the hate.
As I said, not a shred of evidence in 10 years. No emails, no phone calls, no whistleblowers, no proof what so fucken ever. Nobody amongst the vast army needed to pull off this Mission Impossible who has ever dobbed in the rest or tried to sell his story to the media. Indeed, not one story in the media of any merit whatsoever in a country where a President can’t even shag the help without it being a major constitutional crisis.
Get back to me when the coppers start making arrests and I’ll take an interest. Till then, it’s just pants and more fool you for being a tool of the frothing right.
130.000 employees most of whom only found out what they had been working on when the news broke of the bombings in Japan.
There are many whistle blowers who have come forward with regrds to 911 but people like Barry Jennings and Danny Jovenko the demolition expert in the trailer have either had car accidents or died under mysterious circumstances and there are several Whistleblowers who only want to talk if and only if there is a formal investigation with independent investigators and protection for them.
Anthony Shaffer was a high clearance intelligence officer testified to the 911 Commission about how his investigation was stopped into the alleged hijackers during operation able danger and it cost him his career. He was one of many officers and other people who came forward but whose testimony did not appear in the final report.
Many members of the 911 commission have denounced the final report because they felt they had been lied to by the military and other high officials
So no evidence at all, then? It’s so strange that among the cast of thousands who perpetrated this crime, not one has dropped a dime, either publicly or anonymously. It’s almost like it never happened, but then, that’s what they’d like us to think, eh.
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You’re dead right that a lot of Manhatten project workers were kept in the dark about the true aims of the project. That’s one of the reasons it was so succesful. It has nothing to do with a conspiracy though, it’s just routine in the military to keep stuff on a need to know basis, particularly in wartime.
first up, it only took a few dozen to pull this off as the level of authority gave all the cover for any technical or logistical aspect to be implemented.
One example: When a team is hired to paint fireproofing onto steel and told they are applying a new fire retardant, they do not get told they are painting a high tech thermade agent that will result in the pulverising of hundreds of tonnes of concrete into pyroclastic clouds of dust.
you just said why are there no whistle blowers blah blah–then go on to say how the military in war keeps things quiet, what the hell do you think is going on today…if you do not see we are in a state of war then you are absolutely without hope. Perhaps what you do not realise is who the combatants are?
what did Dubya say?
‘ you are with us or against us ‘
you really think you are one of the us? good luck with that
Pick your side very carefully tvor. Your grandchildren will be watching.
You only get to choose once and history will be the book-keeper, not your back slapping, trade chomping, soul swilling mates
Jeez TVoR do you actually stop and read what you write sometimes?
People (Nowhere does it say that if the military does something in secret it isn’t conspiring) who organise something in secret are conspiring. Period.
Conspiring is the most common crime. Banks do it, the military does it (In covering up friendly fire or other war crimes), out leaders do it and the common criminal at the street corner who decides together with his mates to rob a liquor store does it.
The Manhattan project can arguably be called a conspiracy. For those of us who think Nuclear weapons are an abomination it sure is.
Second; were do you get the “rabid right” from. If we are right it was the rabid right in the form of say the neocons (New American Century) and the military industrial complex who had both the means, the motivation and the opportunity to organise it.
If we are right it was the likes of Cheney and Rumsfeld whom even by the easiest of standards can not be called left wing who were involved. If we are right the Americans are no longer in control of their own country because most people who voted fro Obama did so because he promised to stop the wars but instead he started 4 additional wars: Pakistan, Libya, Soedan and Yemen. Black or white is not the issue here but the fact that he lied and that he follows the same disastrous path as his so called right wing predecessor! Â
Most 911 truthers are vehemently anti war. Especially the wars started in the aftermath of 911 and want a return to a peaceful coexistence with the rest of the planet and be able to rebuild America in peace with their fellow man. What is so right wing about that?
If we are right and the US has been hijacked by very dangerous greedy people I can’t (Although I’m a pacifist myself) really fault a lot of Americans for wanting to be able to arm themselves against these idiots destroying the planet with their Depleted Uranium weapons. So what is so rabid right wing about that?
Alex Jones whom you might call a red neck right wing Texan loud mouth is the only one who will have Cynthia McKinney on his show and she is a black ex congress woman standing for the Green party of America when she is in Libya reporting on the many sorties and bombardments of NATO and the US. So how is that Rabid right wing?
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Cheers, guys. As I said earlier if you ever come up with any proof, let me know. Ten years and counting …
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Without wanting to rub your nose in it, freedom, you are buying into a right wing fantasy, perpetrated by people who think Cheney is a softy liberal. The same people who have just been in the news trying to bankrupt America to stop that uppity Kenyan from helping the poor.Â
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It’s entirely your business whether you want to waste time on something that has no credibility or substance and serves the ends of the enemies of everything else you appear to believe in, but every time this reactionary bollocks is aired here, it wastes a shit load of bandwidth and time, including my own. But I’m happy to continue to mock the madness and I’ll still ask the same question every time it does come up. And that question is, where is the proof?
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TVoR,
see you choose to ignore my request for an explanation as to why 911 truth seekers equate with rabid right while lashing out unmotivated by reasonable arguments it seems at to why he or I are from the Rabid right!
Added to that VTO request you tell him what building fell on WTC7 so how about it?
And before you go into bullshit mode let me point out that NIST after 7 years came up with a scenario that even they thought was not very likely to happen and that they dismissed the damage from other buildings caused the collapse scenario.
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vto. here’s popular mechanics summary of the NIST report on WTC7:
“The most important thing we found was that there was, in fact, physical damage to the south face of building 7,” NIST’s Sunder tells PM. “On about a third of the face to the center and to the bottomâapproximately 10 storiesâabout 25 percent of the depth of the building was scooped out.” NIST also discovered previously undocumented damage to WTC 7’s upper stories and its southwest corner.
NIST investigators believe a combination of intense fire and severe structural damage contributed to the collapse, though assigning the exact proportion requires more research. But NIST’s analysis suggests the fall of WTC 7 was an example of “progressive collapse,” a process in which the failure of parts of a structure ultimately creates strains that cause the entire building to come down. Videos of the fall of WTC 7 show cracks, or “kinks,” in the building’s facade just before the two penthouses disappeared into the structure, one after the other. The entire building fell in on itself, with the slumping east side of the structure pulling down the west side in a diagonal collapse.
According to NIST, there was one primary reason for the building’s failure: In an unusual design, the columns near the visible kinks were carrying exceptionally large loads, roughly 2000 sq. ft. of floor area for each floor. “What our preliminary analysis has shown is that if you take out just one column on one of the lower floors,” Sunder notes, “it could cause a vertical progression of collapse so that the entire section comes down.”
There are two other possible contributing factors still under investigation: First, trusses on the fifth and seventh floors were designed to transfer loads from one set of columns to another. With columns on the south face apparently damaged, high stresses would likely have been communicated to columns on the building’s other faces, thereby exceeding their load-bearing capacities.
Second, a fifth-floor fire burned for up to 7 hours. “There was no firefighting in WTC 7,” Sunder says. Investigators believe the fire was fed by tanks of diesel fuel that many tenants used to run emergency generators. Most tanks throughout the building were fairly small, but a generator on the fifth floor was connected to a large tank in the basement via a pressurized line. Says Sunder: “Our current working hypothesis is that this pressurized line was supplying fuel [to the fire] for a long period of time.”
WTC 7 might have withstood the physical damage it received, or the fire that burned for hours, but those combined factorsâalong with the building’s unusual constructionâwere enough to set off the chain-reaction collapse.
You’ll note that PMs description of what NIST says differs from how truthers regularly describe what NIST says. I haven’t read the full report, but I have my suspicions about who is misrepresenting it.
In response to Pascal’s bookie here is a link to a thorough debunking of the popular mechanics articles. It’s only part 1 of 9 but you can find the other parts on the same page.
Here is an analysis the collapse of WTC 7 of Tony Samboti engineer and listen to him thouroughly debunking NIST and Popular mechanics.
But why put the YouTube commentary on the building collapses “aside”? In many of those videos, highly qualified expert architects and engineers speak, as well as people who were at ground zero.
Because unless it explains that PM is totally misrepresenting what the NIST report says, it is beside the point I am discussing.
Truthers often talk about what the NIST report says. I’ve not read the full report. But very often, when I check aspects of the report against what truthers claim about what it says, I find that truthers are not being particularly truthful.
So the question remains. Is PMs description of what the NIST report says more accurate, or less accurate than what truthers say about the NIST report.
Well P’s b, thanks for the popular mechanics info. To be honest I don’t know what to believe. Considerable building and engineering knowledge and experience tells me that the building should not have come down. At all. And the way it fell.
Yet then I read the “official” story and that nakes some sense though very limited.
And on top of that I do not trust “official” much at all. Everybody on this earth conspires, many on a near daily basis from things as small as staying in bed pretending to be asleep so someone else has to go out and get the paper in the frost, to as large as Bill English planning with John Key and Nick Smith to cut ACC while at the same time knowing they will restore it a later date for political pleasures, to even larger again such that JFK’s head blasts back in one direction when the bullet came from a completely different direction. Anybody who says conspiracies do not exist is a true fool. They are part and parcel of manwomankind’s heart and soul. In fact such secretive planning is probably what has led manwomankind to the place it is in today.
The collapse of these buildings is of great interest and I continue to watch. I just wish I could see tvor’s larger building which fell on wtc7…
Re conspiracies in general vto, sure, they are real.
But they are hard to get the truth of, so it comes down to guess work and evaluation right.
On this one, what kills it for me is this:
Assuming AQ was involved, (and there is very very good reason to believe they did indeed recruit and train people to hijack planes and fly them into buildings on 9/11), then
For it to be a false flag op, then the govt had to know that the AQ attack was going to take place. They had to know for certain. They had to have target details, time details, the works. They then had to set up the black op to make the AQ attack worse than it would otherwise have been, by somehow rigging those three buildings to come down in such a way that the aircraft crashes would not upset the demolition set up. They had to set this up under severe time constraints, with limited personnel and be confident that no one would discover that these buildings were rigged for demo.
The demo itself, would have to sound like no other demo I’ve heard. They all sound like a long series of large but discrete explosions as the building is destroyed. No such series can be heard while those buildings come down. So it must have been a new technique with special explosives. Fair enough. But again, that increases the risk of failure/detection. Above someone posits that the explosives were disguised as fire retardent paint and applied by unwitting painters. those painters would have to have had as a term of the contract for fire proofing the WTC, that they use this paint sourced by the contractee. The paint would have to look at act enough like normal paint that it would fool them. etc.
All of this, through every step of the operation, going back who knows how long. All of it set up just to make an attack they knew was coming, worse.
Remember too that he Bush gang had been downplaying and mocking the idea of terrorism as a threat. They were far more focussed on star wars spending and ‘rogue nations’ flinging nukes.
So if the conspirators were confident enough that AQ were going to attack, right down to knowing the target set (incidentally, Mohammad Atta only confirmed that target set to AQ leaders in afghanistan about 1 week before launch, but we’ll ignore that for the moment), if they knew AQ was going to fly airliners full of civilians into buildings, why wouldn’t they just let them do it and use that as the excuse for war.
Such an attack would already be cause for war. Far easier and much less risky to prepare a propaganda campaign saying that AQ were in cahoots with whoever it was you wanted to attack. Knowing they were going to attack yuo could be releasing forged documents in the month before the attack saying anything you like. Then when the attack comes; boom. the population goes crazy for you. Why on earth run the extraordinary risk of organising an incredibly complicated black op to achieve something you could achieve by just doing nothing?
Instead, they had been down playing and ignoring the risk of AQ, they treated AQ as a joke and a non threat prior to 9/11.
That oversight failure is enough to warrant the secrecy and lies and coverups truthers point to in the 9/11 report.
As I said, not a shred of evidence in 10 years. No emails, no phone calls, no whistleblowers, no proof what so fucken ever. Nobody amongst the vast army needed to pull off this Mission Impossible who has ever dobbed in the rest or tried to sell his story to the media. Indeed, not one story in the media of any merit whatsoever in a country where a President canât even shag the help without it being a major constitutional crisis.
Get back to me when the coppers start making arrests and Iâll take an interest. Till then, itâs just pants and more fool you for being a tool of the frothing right.
Swearing and arrogant abuse are not good debating tools, just saying..
As for no one has ever tried to sell his story to the media, how do you know? Do you think the media would dare run it? Grow up! As for the President shagging the help, I presume you’re referring to Clinton and Monica… It’s good to see you remember a scandal from 12 years or more ago, it makes such a good distraction from more recent and more heinous crimes! Gullible twat.
vto, other claims worth looking hard at are the free fall claims. Look at the vids. Watch the debris. The cloud falls faster than the building, obscuring it.
“Iâve not read the full report. But very often, when I check aspects of the report against what truthers claim about what it says, I find that truthers are not being particularly truthful”.
PB, I’ve read the full report. Of course like all things done with hindsight you can pick on the minutiae, but I think it explains a lot. Funny that no 911ers I know have read it. Nor do have they been to any sites that try to debunk their conspiracy theories. They spend hours watching and pausing videos but no time reading the interviews of eyewitnesses and others who were directly affected – just other people’s interpretations of what they said. (Note I’m just talking about the ones I know).
VTO,
Please take into account that WTC 7 fell in the late afternoon many hours after the other buildings had collapsed and that the collapse was announced by both CNN and the BBC between an hour and 20 minutes before the collapse happened and that until then not a single steel framed building other than WTC 1 and 2 had collapsed and that it never happened afterwards with the exception of controlled demolition
âGullible twat.â
I guess youâd have a lot in common with the truthers, Deb, what with all the blind faith involving in worshipping the unprovable.
If you think ‘gullible twat’ is either swearing or arrogant abuse, then you must be an ickle bubby! đ
Did I say you could call me Deb? No, I didn’t, and you can’t, as that’s what my friends call me – fake lefties will never be my friends!. The sneer about my religion is characteristic – but unwarranted.
Watch the footage and then tell me WHAT building fell on it. It was a controlled demolition Supports kicked out and the building just falls down into it’s own space. I did notice something ‘funny’ All the buildings went straight down at first.
they go straight down except for the top of Tower 1 where twenty plus stories are falling out from the line of the building, in an arc, as it should, with the path of least resistance. Then ‘pooof’ it explodes into dust and collapses straight downwards against its predetermined axis. Completely against all known physical laws
Here is a presentation of Dr. Graham McQueen about how the towers collapsed. It is in four parts and is a very dispassionate analysis of what happens and how it could and more importantly could not have happened and for you information. Graham is a Zen Buddhist and lifelong peace activist. Nothing rabid or right wing about him.
Iâm sorry I donât buy the rightwing 911 fantasy and that upsets you so much. Building 7 collapsed because a larger building fell on it. Thatâs the story, right there.
Do stop being such a plonker VoR. I know I am more left-wing than you are, as you’ve confessed to being a Randbot, and no matter how many of the blinkered tell me they’re “left-libertarians”, I know there’s no such animal… Being in favour of marijuana and abortion for all doesn’t make you a left-winger. Neither does being a try hard, oops, I mean hard out atheist. So many followers of the official story simply hate Muslims!
You’re wilfully blind about the WTC. I’ve yet to come across a right-winger who wasn’t deeply in love with all things American, which probably explains it.
I think you’ve got me confused for someone else, Deb. I did admit to once owning a Rush album, but that’s as far as it goes in Randian terms. I’m a socialist, have been all my adult life. Also an atheist, a vegetarian and a soccer player, which makes for some interesting discussions with the red necked and red nosed farmers at my semi rural local most Friday nights!
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BTW, most of my contact with people of the muslim faith was on the soccer field at Hagley Park in Sunday arvo pick up games with the immigrant community. Wonderful, peaceful people who taught me a lot about humility and the love of the game.
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What ever it was someone wanted it gone big time, but it begs a coupla questions. How long was building 7 rigged for doomsday ? Did they have advance notice of the hijackings and targets ?. Who really runs things in the US ? Damn time for the tinfoil hat again.
I’d suggest the most heinous crimes were the coalitions retaliation strikes on Iraq and Afghanistan to find weapons of mass destruction and the links between Saddam and Al Queda – remind me how many innocent civilians have died during that?
Iâd suggest the most heinous crimes were the coalitions retaliation strikes on Iraq and Afghanistan to find weapons of mass destruction and the links between Saddam and Al Queda â remind me how many innocent civilians have died during that?
CIA head quarters, Giuliani’s emergency bunker which was deserted for some reason before the first building collapsed, and the building was twice reinforced to withstand a nuclear blast. Oh, and all the legal documentation pertaining to Enron and other Wall street scandals.
Here is a list of Tenants up until 2001
Not the sort of building were 19 Arab terrorists can just walk into. Here is a witness telling about what he saw in the building before the other buildings collapsed. (This witness by the way died under very suspicious circumstances)
Travrev, you should add he died just before his testimony was to be given in a pivotal civil case taken up by the families to re-open an investigation into the murder of their children, their families and their friends
leave Chomsky alone…his betrayal of logic is the crime in that video. He has rejected so many of the values he once espoused. He has become a somewhat tragic figure with a diminshing authority and a growing pool of detractors for his ridiculous kowtowing to the official story.
None of which negates his fine work in Linguistics and associated fields
a person’s views and a person’s work can be exclusive of each other, look at politicians, some of them were once productive members of society
What’s more Gormy,
Chomsky came around and said that we have not been told the truth about what happened on 911 and let’s face it the man is in his eigthies and has done excellent work but he’s a bit passed it.
hey travellerrev, do you know of or have you ever heard a single person refer to Cheney as a softy liberal? just about split my hernia scar when i read that one.
Can’t say that I have F.
Satan, Prince of Darkness, He who shoots friends in the face, Bastard, the real president! Many names but never a softy liberal or it must have been the people to the right of him who felt he should abandon his daughter for being gay! ROFL.
Ahem. Try googling ‘cheney too liberal’. About 1,630,000 hits as of a minute ago.
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But seriously guys, you’re not fools. You know this, along with the pathetic birther idea, is an obsession of the right, more specifically the ‘states rights’ and similar anti-federalists. You’re like Dylan’s Mr Jones; you know something is happening here, but you don’t know what it is.Â
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I’ve got a proposition for you both. Why don’t you put up a left wing case for the truther movement? Write it up as a guest post and I’m sure the mods will give consideration to putting it up. I’m not assuming either of you are left wing, but I’m sure you are more than capable of framing the argument in left wing terms, if that’s at all possible.
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Or maybe give me the name of one of the on the ground conspirators and the proof against that individual. Whichever’s easier for ya.
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Edit: Couldn’t find any live Bob, but here’s some kid giving it heaps.
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There is a huge volume of info, dis-info and opinion out there Voice on all sides of the 9/11 argument. I am skeptical as to the inside job claims but when people start quoting Popular Mechanics as an authoritative source-really…
The collapse of those buildings looks a hell of a lot like a routine retired Chicago project going down to me.
An ugly munted few floors and some still left standing makes more sense.
A left wing view? Well, historically whatever the US ruling class is up to can only be bad news for most of us. From a materialist perspective, if it was a false flag they are not going to admit it are they. Look at the US roll of dishonour of invasions and dirty tricks. The UK supporting Saddam in earlier years, surely not? Blairâs âDossierâ -what fuckers.
3 large steel framed buildings suffering significant assymetrical damage, falling completely symmetrically on to their own foot prints, with large percentages of the building structures ejected as a fine particulate dust during the fall, instead of collapsing into rubble, leaving pools of molten metal at ground zero which were roasting hot more than a week after collapse.
Tiger, I quoted PMs report of what the NIST report said.
The NIST report says something. What it says is verifiable. That NIST report would be the ultimate authority on what the NIST report says, but secondary summations are much easier to read.
If PM is misrepresenting what the NIST report says, or if wikipedia is also misrepresenting what the NIST report says, I’d love to be corrected, and PM should get all the scorn one can muster.
By the same token, that scorn should be applied to truthers if it is they who are misrepresenting what the NIST report says. Right?
The only “truthers” you should listen to are the ones who have done specific investigative work, and are preferably highly quaified architects and engineers themselves.
To quote a bunch of peeps making random comments on a YouTube clip as “Truthers” in order to demonstrate the lack of credibility of the very real questions being asked does not seem fair.
Personally I think the material presented by Architects and Engineers for 9/11 is pretty reasonable and reasoned.
Here is a video of two scientists who analysed the NIST report and one of them (Kevin Ryan) was working for Underwriters laboratories and got fired for speaking out with regards to the NIST fire testing for which his company was hired to do.
Both Proffesor jones and Dr. Kevin Ryan speak in the AE911truth video which will air in September.
Also in this video is a professional smelter who adds to their NIST debunking.
About NIST. They only reported until the “inevitable” point of collapse and as such felt they did not have to explain how the buildings could have exploded into a pyroclastic flow and collapse into their own footprint within free fall speed. I hope you will agree with me that that is unscientific to say the least.
The remark that NIST states that their collapse theory has only a low probability of actually happening was a remark in the WTC 7 report and was added after they had to withdraw several hypothesis because there was so much criticism and peer pressure from other scientists. Â
Colonial Viper is correct and you should only study the Architects & Engineers and scientist 911 sites to stay within scientifically and peer reviewed boundaries. Everything else is for now relatively unimportant as a lot of questions remain but the unexplained free fall collapses of the three buildings, the Nano thermite residue and the millions of molten micro spheres are in and of itself proof that two planes could not have caused the collapses and if that is so we need a new and fully independent investigation and let the chips fall were they may.
I am sure that there are people who think that Cheney is a liberal. I know of one who actually said so. His name is Erik Prince and he runs Blackwater now known a Xe services. He lives in Dubai and is by most 911 truthers considered to be a war criminal and part of the cabal whom we hope will be dragged before the courts for the war criminal he is.
There are enough testimonies (not in the final report) from people like Minetta putting Cheney firmly in control of some crucial events on 911 to make him very muc” a “person of interest” to be dragged before the commission who investigates the 911 crimes in the future.
The video is about the NIST report if I am correct. I’m knackered now so don’t bite my head off as I’m trying to give the correct info. I’ll respond if need be tomorrow morning after I’ve had some kip. Cheers!
The remark that NIST states that their collapse theory has only a low probability of actually happening was a remark in the WTC 7 report and was added after they had to withdraw several hypothesis because there was so much criticism and peer pressure from other scientists.
I can’t see anyting in the link (‘added’) that supports the claim. The FEMA report says they weren’t confident about their conclusions, which is what led to the NIST investigation…
Chomsky came around and said that we have not been told the truth about what happened on 911
Chomsky, like all reasonable people, was concerned with the makeup and the conduct of the inquiry. But he has never suggested that there is any credibility for these bizarre “inside job” fantasies. In fact, he has on several occasions expressed his impatience with the “Truther” movement, which he says is irrational and a distraction from serious criticism of the government.
and letâs face it the man is in his eigthies and has done excellent work but heâs a bit passed it.
That’s nonsense. You obviously haven’t read anything he’s written or heard anything he’s said over the last six months.
A cartoon in the Christchurch Press 1st August shows what Labour and Goff are up against.
It portrays Goff in an airport imaging security device as having no substance.(If anything it should have pictured Key as the one with image only and no substance).
Can’t remember who the cartoonist was but I can’t think of a word more emphatic than scurrilous to describe the mind of the ‘artist’ or the editor who must have Okay ed it.
It’s about the same level intellectually and politically as Fox news (specifically psycho Glenn Beck) and ethically comparable to those who orchestrated the ‘ditch the bitch’ posters during the last election campaign.
Congratulations Fairfax..You must be so proud of your professional fair and balanced approach.
How on earth does Labour counter this kind of trash? Any ideas?
Canât remember who the cartoonist was but I canât think of a word more emphatic than scurrilous to describe the mind of the âartistâ or the editor who must have Okay ed it.
So this cartoonist is unfunny, unfair, and unashamedly partisan in his support for the National government. Sounds like the mirth-free Queenstown beardie Garrick Tremain.
What the? dept:
Media reports claim Colin Craig is starting a new Conservative Party (work for the dole, usual stuff) and may stand in Epsom. He did not do too well in the supercity Mayoral contest or at organising a march in Queen St despite his dosh.
Did the Conservative Test. I think 3 out of 19 suggests I won’t be going on their mailing list. Have a try and see if you too are a secret pinko or made of the right stuff.
Â
Also heard Craig on the radio this arvo. I missed the start of the interview and for five minutes I thought he was Andrew Williams talking about NZ First! Looks like he’s gonna run in Epsom, but he sounds like he’d probably personally vote for John Banks, because none of what he said was any different from the average Banks soundbite.
Suggest you contact one of the private firms that will be tendering for this. The 40% increase in budget will equate to the 50% they will need to be paid and the 20% that will be cut from rehablitation
In Parliament Tau Henare is telling me that if I don’t want to belong to an organisation I don’t need to.
So, I don’t want to belong to this government; I don’t want to be bound by any of their neo-conservative attack legislation on the rights of workers, i.e. those rules that prevent New Zealanders from having a support system that believes in them and protects their rights.
Freedom of Association Bill – Moana Mackey is now telling me that only 10% of students have to demand a referendum to require voluntary student membership and it was never achieved. Yet Act is forcing this bill upon us.
I’ve been watching the Act minister Heather Roy smiling to herself thinking, finally, she has forced something upon students that they didn’t want. This is all about weakening youth’s ability to stand against future strangulation of their democratic speech and student rights to fair treatment. This is all about weakening support for workers’ rights as those students will realise to their disadvantage as they enter into the workforce.
Students and youth in general look to adults to protect their rights while they enjoy their freedoms before taking on the responsibility of looking after this country and its growing aged. I hope they forgive what this government has forced upon them as they lose their umbrella support, their support infrastructure and their physical infrastructure.
This government lied before the 2008 election about not forcing through this legislation.
Paul Hutchison; you are a liar. You lied about your promise not to drag Franklin assets into the Auckland pit of debt. Now we find out you lied to our youth. Shame on you. To think that the people of Frankin/Hunua will vote you back in just because it is a National nest speaks volumes about National/Act’s lack of credibility and National/Act’s voters’ self-respect.
It was a disgrace as far as I am concerned and I am Dutch but the truth is that they were there in a passive capacity and were not equipped to deal with the murderous intend of the Serbian warlords. Why Holland ever committed to this role without being properly equipped to deal with these circumstances putting their soldiers in that position is something you can blame the government for but I thought at the time it was an absolute disgrace.
National is helping Act to remove the rights of students to decide whether they wanted to find 10% of students to force a referendum on whether they wanted to pay student association fees which cover a range of advocacy services and clubs, etc or not.
Since this government is removing the rights of students to decide how they want to handle their university services, I decided to remove the right of Tau Henare to speak in my House and put him on mute. He looks hilarious waving his arms about, trying to bluster over the fact that when he was in the other party Pacific… he was all for advocacy.
I’ve given him a verbal lobotomy; it couldn’t happen to a more deserving guy.
You seriously are a fuckwit; before student unions students had pitiful rights. In the modern age of higher education, where dollars are everything, their voice needs to be heard.
Earlier this week the students were questioning the overseas travel at Auckland Uni and whether this was value for money. Can you imagine if a single student had the gaul to do this – they would be out.
What you and your ilk do not like is anyone collectively challenging you value system.
If this goes through, a bill supported by a party that gained 3.7% share of the vote, it will be one of the saddest days for democracy in NZ.
RWNJs love breaking down civic and collective institutions. Atomising people into their individual selves weakens them and breaks communities and resistance down.
Yep – most students don’t want to associate with universities that have a large chunk of freeloaders making student-provided services untenable. NACT are taking that option away.
I have now created the “Standard Commentators Association” as you have commentated here, you are a member. Your bill for $400 for this 1/4 is in the mail.
Ian, is anyone being stopped from participating in the associations?
Enclosed is my formal notification of conscientious objection to membership of your association. Failure to act on this will result in me choosing to comment on any of the other half-dozen leftish political blog sites in NZ.
“Force” my arse.Â
   Â
Nobody “forces” anyone to go to that particular tertiary education provider, if membership of that particular students’ association one can object to membership, if there are issues around objection procedures the association needs to work under the democratic rules of societies’ legislation, and if the association is completely unresponsive to the needs of students a simple petition necessitates a referendum of all students regarding membership criteria.
  Â
ACT’s last gasp is to overrule all that and the democratic wishes of students with a dictat from Wellington. When our PM can’t remember whether he opposed sporting contacts with Apartheid South Africa.
McFlock, when I went to Uni I had no option but to join, it was on my invoice every semester, if I wanted the expensive piece of paper, I had to pay the fees for an association that I did not want to belong to. Admittedly, they did a fair amount of good at my campus, I would rather have had the option of joining or staying out.
You are now also enrolled in the association of commentators at The Standard, your bill is also in the mail for this 1/4
Really? No obtion for conscientious objection whatsoever?
  Â
My uni assoociation did, although I never bothered with it. I’m not a Jehova’s Witness or a self-obsessed tory who’s convinced I’ll never need help.
 Â
I bet you never used any association services, either (/bullshit).
So other than any association reps on university committees including the Council, academic policies regarding fairness and clarity in marking or library use, class reps, (and probably student publications, events around Orientation and so on), you only ever went to the pub a couple of times and never joined a club or society in three years.
Yep, you got nothing from your membership.
Â
Difference is The Standard doesn’t provide you with counselling services, discounts on things, sports facilities, clubs, funding, meeting space, medical services, legal back up, etc.
I’ll gladly pay the $400 per year when you start offering them to me đ
NB I already pay $80 a month to my union for similar representation; whilst I begrudge the $80 when it is deducted I also acknowledged that others who have paid before me have fought for and won many of the rights I now enjoy, not only as a worker, but as a human being.
… The precincts of parliament? What part of the anatomy is that? Watching that waste of space during the debate this evening, suggests that Henare is still suffering from concussion. He is obviously an embarrassment to the intellects in his party – they must cringe when he opens his mouth.
He is obviously an embarrassment to the intellects in his party â they must cringe when he opens his mouth.
If National Party members had any standards at all, they would cringe whenever Key opens his mouth—especially his statement that the shooting of Norwegians by a Norwegian Christian fanatic is “why we are in Afghanistan”.
Did you watch the link above of Key reading his âcondolencesâ speech?
Yes I did. Key’s speech (Part 1) was as uninspiring and insipid as anything he has delivered, though it was interesting to see that he has dropped his grave assurances that “this is why our troops are in Afghanistan”. Note, straight behind Key, the hapless Hawkes Bay drone Chris Tremain dutifully looking concerned and occasionally nodding his head throughout the speech. Talk about a wasted life.
I skipped the rest, except for John Boscawen (Part 5), who seems utterly bewildered and out of his depth. As usual. Note that the grossly under-performing National backbencher Alan (“I am not a stupid man”) Peachey is fast asleep throughout Boscawen’s speech.
PB,
Could not find a way to link to the previous thread so I’m responding a fresh.
Let me start that over the many years I have done this the pile of books, rapports, counter reports, video’s, radio programs has grown so voluminous that errors are almost inevitable. that does not mean they ar on purpose or to mislead.
Having said that Here is a link to the response of a group of scientists and engineers who respond to Both NIST and FEMA in their peer reviewed article in the Bentham open journal. This was written before the NIST WTC7 report was published and it shows you are right and that the FEMA report stated that their best hypothesis had a low chance of occurring.
However NIST had to detract their timeline for the collapse of WTC 7 upon strenuous and well founded criticism after they denied that WTC 7 had collapsed in free fall speed when the same group of Engineers and Scientists reviewed their report on the collapse in the peer review process. As it should be I might add.
Now you can say: see, see she’s got it wrong but the fact is that two scientific institutions financed by the US government have not bee able to give satisfying answers to the urgent question as to why three steel framed buildings could collapse (Two in an exploding fashion and one in an imploding fashion) into a pyroclastic flow and that until today this only happened on 911 even though more devastating fires in more fragile build buildings have not been able to replicate these collapses other then ones rigged with explosives.
No proper criminal investigation has ever been allowed to take place and a small group of people has become even more hideously wealthy in the war efforts that followed. Â
Have to be off, won’t be able to answer until midday.
Here’s what NIST say about the rate of collapse as far as I can make out:
The analyses of the video (both the estimation of the instant the roofline began to descend and the calculated velocity and acceleration of a point on the roofline) revealed three distinct stages characterizing the 5.4 seconds of collapse:
âąStage 1 (0 to 1.75 seconds): acceleration less than that of gravity (i.e., slower than free fall).
âąStage 2 (1.75 to 4.0 seconds): gravitational acceleration (free fall)
âąStage 3 (4.0 to 5.4 seconds): decreased acceleration, again less than that of gravity
This analysis showed that the 40 percent longer descent timeâcompared to the 3.9 second free fall timeâwas due primarily to Stage 1, which corresponded to the buckling of the exterior columns in the lower stories of the north face. During Stage 2, the north face descended essentially in free fall, indicating negligible support from the structure below. This is consistent with the structural analysis model which showed the exterior columns buckling and losing their capacity to support the loads from the structure above. In Stage 3, the acceleration decreased as the upper portion of the north face encountered increased resistance from the collapsed structure and the debris pile below.
PB,
Just so we are clear here. A 47 floor 186 m high building twice reinforced to withstand a nuclear blast collapses into a fine dust and steel beams just the right length to fit on removal trucks in 5.4 sec (I thought 6.5 seconds) into it’s own foot print, the path of most resistance, as the result of mere office fires and you are OK with that because the absolute free fall time would have been 3.9 sec?
Come on!!!
Here is what Physicist David Chandler (One of the people criticizing NIST with Architects and Engineers) has to say about it!Â
the north face descended essentially in free fall, indicating negligible support from the structure below. This is consistent with the structural analysis model which showed the exterior columns buckling and losing their capacity to support the loads from the structure above.
Whoah, that is a totally unwarranted conclusion. Structural elements which fail take time to fail. They don’t fail as if they are not there. You have to remember that a good MAJORITY of the structural beams in the building were INTACT.
What you are proposing is that all those intact beams wnet ahead and failed SIMULTANEOUSLY in such a way that they acted as if they had ZERO structural strength.
Well of course there are circumstances where that could happen to a building, and has been seen to happen before e.g. a carefully timed controlled demolition.
CV,
Just to support your comment, here is a video with both the real world collapse and the framework computer model showing completely different collapses
The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 19.1.2.1.1
Yeah, seems a bit of a circuitous conspiracy. You want to go to war against Iraq. You need a pretext. You involve hundreds of people in your conspiracy planting explosives and such (none of whom ever leak about it).
But then, you don’t frame Iraq, the country against whom you want to go to war.
gormyone
“Forget about the fucking buildings and tell me why. ”
Gold Oil Drugs
sum it up for you?
if not then you may want to recall they had to hit Afghanistan first before they could whip up the frenzy to allow the illegal and unwarranted attack on their patsy Hussein. Then as the opium trade exploded in selected areas of Afghanistan, protected by the US forces of course, they could focus on Iraq and once the first million civilians had been killed they had to fire the Army so the country could properly disintegrate and the US could supply stability to the oil pipeline, i mean the oppressed people.
Why not just use the actual AQ attacks as pretext? It’s not like everyone thought it was no big deal until after the buildings came down, and only then did the tv people start saying hell this is pretty freaky.
Even while the planes were still flying around people were describing it as the most serious and audacious terror attack in history. There is your pretext, right there.
You only need to run a false flag op when you opponent isn’t actually attacking you.
“Even while the planes were still flying around people were describing it as the most serious and audacious terror attack in history. ”
you really do come up with some amazing crap.. Weren’t you at all suspicious that within an hour of the first Tower being hit Osama was the man and every station on the planet knew it. .. kind of like when Oswald’s full bio and backstory turned up in NZ papers within hours of the event…. now back to your Airplane problem .. in the USA…any commercial aircraft that deviates from its course for whatever reason and does not respond to three calls to the flightcrew has an interceptor aircraft launched.
This did not happen for four passenger aircraft that as you state above were known to be highjacked and were tracked for over an hour over land.. The interceptors were sent out to sea.
A couple of months before 9/11 longstanding protocols were changed so all calls for interceptors had to go directly to the Secreatary of Defense. A couple of weeks after 9/11 the long standing protocols were re-introduced.
HOW and WHY…. PB.. HOW and WHY ?
I do not have time this week to continue but i am more than willing to deal with this next week. 9/11 is perhaps the most difficult subject for people to discuss, not because of the info-disnfo war, not because of the wars that it led to, not because the threat of actual terrorism is a real danger in the 21st Century. The real reason is people fundamentally do not want to accept that a small number of very powerful people conspired to slaughter millions for nothing else but Gold Oil and Drugs and the power they supply.
Freedom, perhaps you didn’t actually read my comment.
The question I’m asking is why would you need to go through with a highly risky task of rigging three buildings to blow up, when the AQ attacks alone would serve as your casus belli.
Responding that in fact, everyone was already itching for war on AQ after only one hour explains my point perfectly.
And no, I wasn’t suspicious at all about the fact that AQ was being fingered. When I first saw the shit goin down, and it became clear it wasn’ an accident, I thought, shit AQ have got their A game on.
It’s not like they hadn’t been threatening war on US soil for years. They were the obvious suspect, to everyone but the Bush administration (who were under the spell of neocons who believed that non state actors simply don’t have the capacity for this sort of thing).
Tomorrow, tired now. And I would like to know what AQ stands for. Blond perhaps but remember English is my second language and sometimes abbreviations slide by me. Cheers
“Structural elements which fail take time to fail”.
The way I understand it is that they had been progressively failing all day from uncontrolled fires on 10 floors. So much so, that instead of pulling the building down (as they had several others in the complex), the firemen left it to burn because they knew it was going to fall down anyway.
The most important operational decision to be made that afternoon was the collapse (Of the WTC towers) had damaged 7 World Trade Center, which is about a 50 story building, at Vesey between West Broadway and Washington Street. It had very heavy fire on many floors and I ordered the evacuation of an area sufficient around to protect our members, so we had to give up some rescue operations that were going on at the time and back the people away far enough so that if 7 World Trade did collapse, we [wouldn’t] lose any more people. We continued to operate on what we could from that distance and approximately an hour and a half after that order was [given], at 5:30 in the afternoon, World Trade Center collapsed completely.
Eve posted some statements as to what she claimed the NIST report said, saying that they had to adjust their timeline implying that the new timeline would no longer support their theory of what happened. I posted what the NIST report says. As far as I can tell, what the NIST report says is not very much like what eve claimed it said.
Point the second:
There seems to be some astonishment at what I posted. It is as if, as Rosy talked about in an earlier comment, people aren’t actually familiar with the theory they are criticising.
Instead of dealing with that, I’m asked if I believe the same tired old strawman about ‘small office fires’. It’s almost like I haven’t linked to what the actual theory is. It is quite something.
Point the third:
CV look again at the threes stages NIST talks about. When is the support for the building being lost? Stage 1, 2, or 3?
No, actually I think that difficult though it may be he is actually trying to engage. Something you wouldn’t know how to do if it hit you between the eyes. Hence the questions and the links.
Wrote this an hour ago and thought I’d send it off. That is the problem when you have about a hundred tabs open. My bad!
We are nitpicking about 1.6 seconds here in the collapse of a 47 floor steel framed building for fucks sake I it had taken 1.5 hours it would still be impossible!
NIST stated it did not investigate for explosives because there was no proof of explosives. WTF?
First of all there was ample recorded testimony and video material showing clearly that explosive events took place BEFORE the planes hit the buildings and there is recorded testimony of explosive events in WTC 7 before the buildings came down and they did not investigate because they did not find evidence?????
This is what Eric Lawyer (also speaking on the AE video to come) Fire fighters for 911 truth had to say about that.
This is what appeared on Italian MSM about the WTC 7 demolition here the explosions just before the buildings collapse and oh oops, here are the fire fighters saying they knew it was coming down before hand even though this had only happened twice before on the same day!
if you read The Project for a New American Century it spells out that ‘nothing short of a new Pearl Harbour’ would have been enough of a catlyst to form the required level of hysteria that would allow the implenmentation of a long standing warplan on the Middle East.
The plans of which you may recall were dumped on the desk of the Secretary of Defense within 48 hours of the attacks on the WTC. Full plans, costs, including an exit strategy. All tied up with a nice blood red white and blue ribbon but the reality is there should have been nought on top but a white feather for their cowardice.
The AQ attacks fit the bill. Which is why they used it. Doesn’t explain why they would take he risk of getting involved. And it sure as hell doesn’t explain why their propaganda before the event wasn’t helping them. If they had known exactly what was going to happen, they would have been laying the ground about ties between AQ and Iraq and building up the threat AQ posed. Instead, they were ignoring them.
The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 20.1.1
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Please note:To skip directly to the- parliamentary footage in the video, scroll to 1:21 To skip to audio please click on the headphone iconon the left hand side of the screenThis video / audio section is under development. ...
Given the crackdown on wasteful government spending, it behooves me to point to a high profile example of spending by the Luxon government that looks like a big, fat waste of time and money. Iâm talking about the deployment of NZDF personnel to support the US-led coalition in the Red ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:40 am on Wednesday, July 24 are:Deep Dive: Chipping away at the housing crisis, including my comments RNZ/Newsroom’s The DetailNews: Government softens on asset sales, ...
As I reported about the city centre, Auckland’s rail network is also going through a difficult and disruptive period which is rapidly approaching a culmination, this will result in a significant upgrade to the whole network. Hallelujah. Also like the city centre this is an upgrade predicated on the City ...
Today, a 4 kilogram report will be delivered to Parliament. We know this is what the report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in State and Faith-based Care weighs, because our Prime Minister told us so.Some reporter had blindsided him by asking a question about something done by ...
TL;DR: As of 7:00 am on Wednesday, July 24, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:Beehive:Transport Minister Simeon Brownannounced plans to use PPPs to fund, build and run a four-lane expressway between Auckland ...
NewstalkZB host Mike Hosking, who can usually be relied on to give Prime Minister Christopher Luxon an easy run, did not do so yesterday when he interviewed him about the HealthNZ deficit. Luxon is trying to use a deficit reported last year by HealthNZ as yet another example of the ...
Back in January a StatsNZ employee gave a speech at RÄtana on behalf of tangata whenua in which he insulted and criticised the government. The speech clearly violated the principle of a neutral public service, and StatsNZ started an investigation. Part of that was getting an external consultant to examine ...
Renting for life: Shared ownership initiatives are unlikely to slow the slide in home ownership by much. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy today are:A Deloittereport for Westpac has projected Aotearoa’s home-ownership rate will ...
You're broken down and tiredOf living life on a merry go roundAnd you can't find the fighterBut I see it in you so we gonna walk it outAnd move mountainsWe gonna walk it outAnd move mountainsAnd I'll rise upI'll rise like the dayI'll rise upI'll rise unafraidI'll rise upAnd I'll ...
Thereâs been a change in Myers Park. Down the steps from St. Kevin’s Arcade, past the grassy slopes, the childrenâs playground, the benches and that goat statue, there has been a transformation. The underpass for Mayoral Drive has gone from a barren, grey, concrete tunnel, to a place that thrums ...
This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections Global society may have finally slammed on the brakes for climate-warming pollution released by human fossil fuel combustion. According to the Carbon Monitor Project, the total global climate pollution released between February and May 2024 declined slightly from the amount released during the same ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:00 am on Tuesday, July 23 are:Deep Dive: Penlink: where tolling rhetoric meets reality BusinessDesk-$$$’sOliver LewisScoop:Te Pūkenga plans for regional polytechs leak out ...
TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Tuesday, July 23, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:Health: Shane Reti announcedthe Board of Te Whatu Ora-Health New Zealand was being replaced with Commissioner Lester Levy ...
Health NZ warned the Government at the end of March that it was running over Budget. But the reasons it gave were very different to those offered by the Prime Minister yesterday. Prime Minister Christopher Luxon blamed the âbotched mergerâ of the 20 District Health Boards (DHBs) to create Health ...
Long ReadKey Summary: Although National increased the health budget by $1.4 billion in May, they used an old funding model to project health system costs, and never bothered to update their pre-election numbers. They were told during the Health Select Committees earlier in the year their budget amount was deficient, ...
As a momentous, historic weekend in US politics unfolded, analysts and commentators grasped for precedents and comparisons to help explain the significance and power of the choice Joe Biden had made. The 46th president had swept the Democratic partyâs primaries but just over 100 days from the election had chosen ...
TL;DR: I’m casting around for new ideas and ways of thinking about Aotearoa’s political economy to find a few solutions to our cascading and self-reinforcing housing, poverty and climate crises.Associate Professor runs an online masters degree in the economics of sustainability at Torrens University in Australia and is organising ...
The Finance and Expenditure Committee has reported back on National's Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill. The bill sets up water for privatisation, and was introduced under urgency, then rammed through select committee with no time even for local councils to make a proper submission. Naturally, national's select committee ...
Some years ago, I bought a book at Dunedin’s Regent Booksale for $1.50. As one does. Vandrad the Viking (1898), by J. Storer Clouston, is an obscure book these days – I cannot find a proper online review – but soon it was sitting on my shelf, gathering dust alongside ...
History is not on the side of the centre-left, when Democratic presidents fall behind in the polls and choose not to run for re-election. On both previous occasions in the past 75 years (Harry Truman in 1952, Lyndon Johnson in 1968) the Democrats proceeded to then lose the White House ...
This is a free articleCoverageThis morning, US President Joe Biden announced his withdrawal from the Presidential race. And that is genuinely newsworthy. Thanks for your service, President Biden, and all the best to you and yours.However, the media in New Zealand, particularly the 1News nightly bulletin, has been breathlessly covering ...
A homeless person’s camp beside a blocked-off slipped damage walkway in Freeman’s Bay: we are chasing our tail on our worsening and inter-related housing, poverty and climate crises. Photo: Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy ...
What has happened to it all?Crazy, some'd sayWhere is the life that I recognise?(Gone away)But I won't cry for yesterdayThere's an ordinary worldSomehow I have to findAnd as I try to make my wayTo the ordinary worldYesterday morning began as many others - what to write about today? I began ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:00 am on Monday, July 22 are:Today’s Must Read: Father and son live in a tent, and have done for four years, in a million ...
TL;DR: As of 7:00 am on Monday, July 22, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:US President Joe Biden announced via X this morning he would not stand for a second term.Multinational professional services firm ...
A listing of 32 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, July 14, 2024 thru Sat, July 20, 2024. Story of the week As reflected by preponderance of coverage, our Story of the Week is Project 2025. Until now traveling ...
This weekend, a friend pointed out someone who said they’d like to read my posts, but didn’t want to pay. And my first reaction was sympathy.I’ve already told folks that if they can’t comfortably subscribe, and would like to read, I’d be happy to offer free subscriptions. I don’t want ...
National: The Party of ‘Law and Order’ IntroductionThis weekend, the Government formally kicked off one of their flagship policy programs: a military style boot camp that New Zealand has experimented with over the past 50 years. Cartoon credit: Guy BodyIt’s very popular with the National Party’s Law and Orderimage, ...
Day one of the solo leg of my long journey home begins with my favourite sound: footfalls in an empty street. 5.00 am and it’s already light and already too warm, almost.If I can make the train that leaves Budapest later this hour I could be in Belgrade by nightfall; ...
Do you remember Y2K, the threat that hung over humanity in the closing days of the twentieth century? Horror scenarios of planes falling from the sky, electronic payments failing and ATMs refusing to dispense cash. As for your VCR following instructions and recording your favourite show - forget about it.All ...
Climate Change Minister Simon Watts being questioned by The Kākā’s Bernard Hickey.TL;DR: My top six things to note around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the week to July 20 were:1. A strategy that fails Zero Carbon Act & Paris targetsThe National-ACT-NZ First Coalition Government finally unveiled ...
Summary:As New Zealand loses at least 12 leaders in the public service space of health, climate, and pharmaceuticals, this month alone, directly in response to the Government’s policies and budget choices, what lies ahead may be darker than it appears. Tui examines some of those departures and draws a long ...
The Minister of Housingâs ambition is to reduce markedly the ratio of house prices to household incomes. If his strategy works it would transform the housing market, dramatically changing the prospects of housing as an investment.Leaving aside the Ministerâs metaphor of âflooding the marketâ I do not see how the ...
As previously noted, my historical fantasy piece, set in the fifth-century Mediterranean, was accepted for a Pirate Horror anthology, only for the anthology to later fall through. But in a good bit of news, it turned out that the story could indeed be re-marketed as sword and sorcery. As of ...
An employee of tobacco company Philip Morris International demonstrates a heated tobacco device. Photo: Getty ImagesTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy on Friday, July 19 are:At a time when the Coalition Government is cutting spending on health, infrastructure, education, housing ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 8:30 am on Friday, July 19 are:Scoop: NZ First Minister Casey Costello orders 50% cut to excise tax on heated tobacco products. The minister has ...
Kia ora, it’s time for another Friday roundup, in which we pull together some of the links and stories that caught our eye this week. Feel free to add more in the comments! Our header image this week shows a foggy day in Auckland town, captured by Patrick Reynolds. ...
TL;DR : Here’s the top six items climate news for Aotearoa this week, as selected by Bernard Hickey and The Kākā’s climate correspondent Cathrine Dyer. A discussion recorded yesterday is in the video above and the audio of that sent onto the podcast feed.The Government released its draft Emissions Reduction ...
Save some money, get rich and old, bring it back to Tobacco Road.Bring that dynamite and a crane, blow it up, start all over again.Roll up. Roll up. Or tailor made, if you prefer...Whether you’re selling ciggies, digging for gold, catching dolphins in your nets, or encouraging folks to flutter ...
Waiting In The Wings:For truly, if Trump is Americaâs un-assassinated Caesar, then J.D. Vance is Americaâs Octavian, the Republicâs youthful undertaker â and its first Emperor.DONALD TRUMPâS SELECTION of James D. Vance as his running-mate bodes ill for the American republic. A fervent supporter of Viktor Orban, the âilliberalâ prime ...
TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Friday, July 19, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:The PSAannounced the Employment Relations Authority (ERA) had ruled in the PSA’s favour in its case against the Ministry ...
TL;DR: The podcast above of the weekly ‘hoon’ webinar for paying subscribers last night features co-hosts and talking with:The Kākā’s climate correspondent talking about the National-ACT-NZ First Government’s release of its first Emissions Reduction Plan;University of Otago Foreign Relations Professor and special guest Dr Karin von ...
Open access notablesImproving global temperature datasets to better account for non-uniform warming, Calvert, Quarterly Journal of the Royal Meteorological Society:To better account for spatial non-uniform trends in warming, a new GITD [global instrumental temperature dataset] was created that used maximum likelihood estimation (MLE) to combine the land surface ...
A late change to charter school legislation will cheat educators out of fair pay and negotiating power proving charter schools are just a vehicle to make profit out of our education system. ...
In 2004 te iwi MÄori rallied against the Crownâs attempt to confiscate our coastlines and moana with the Foreshore and Seabed Act. This led to the largest hÄ«koi of a generation and the birth of Te PÄti MÄori. 20 years later, history is repeating itself. Today the government has announced ...
It has been five and a half years since the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care was established to investigate the abuse of children, young people, and vulnerable adults within state and faith-based institutions. Yesterday, the final report - Whanaketia through pain and trauma, from darkness to light ...
The Governmentâs move to dilute child poverty targets is a reminder that it is actively choosing to preserve hardship for thousands of households. ...
The Green Party is calling on the Government to take action off the back of the International Court of Justice ruling on Israelâs illegal occupation of Palestine. ...
On Friday the International Court of Justice reaffirmed what Palestinianâs have been telling us for decades: that the occupation and colonisation of Palestinian lands by Israel is illegal and must end immediately. They also called for reparations for Palestinianâs who have lived under Israeli occupation since it began in 1967. ...
Labour calls on the Government to act after the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruled that Israelâs occupation of Palestinian Territories is illegal. ...
The 53.7 percent rise in benefit sanctions over the last year is more proof of this Governmentâs disdain for our communities most in need of support. ...
Aotearoa could be a country where every child grows up feeling safe, loved and with a sense of belonging in their whÄnau and community. But for some of our children, this is far from reality. Instead, they are trapped in a maze of intergenerational harm that they canât escape on ...
Te PÄti MÄori are calling for David Seymour to resign as Associate Health Minister in response to his call for Pharmac to ignore the Treaty of Waitangi. âThis announcement is just another example of the governmentâs anti-Tiriti, anti-MÄori agenda.â Said Co-leader and spokesperson for health, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer. âSeymour thinks it ...
The soaring price of renting is driving the rise of inflation in this country - with latest figures from Stats NZ showing rents are up 4.8 per cent on average while annual inflation is at 3.3 per cent. ...
Nationalâs Emissions Reduction Plan will take New Zealand further from the economy we need to ensure the next generation has a stable climate and secure livelihoods. ...
Following consultation with named parties and thorough consideration of privacy interests, the Green Party is in a position to release the Executive Summary of the final report from the independent investigation into Darleen Tana. ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon should be asking serious questions of his Minister for Resources Shane Jones now itâs been revealed he misled the public about a dinner with mining companies that he didnât declare and said wasnât pre-arranged. ...
Te PÄti MÄori have submitted to the Justice Select Committee against the Sentencing (Reinstating Three Strikes) Amendment Bill. The bill will further entrench racism in our justice system and fails to focus on rehabilitation. âReinstating Three Strikes will empower a systematically racist system and exacerbate the overrepresentation of MÄori in ...
The Transport and Infrastructure Committee is set to make a determination on the Residential Tenancies Amendment (RTA) Bill in the coming weeks. âThis legislation will give landlords the power to kick our whÄnau out onto the street for no reasonâ said Housing spokesperson, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi. âTheir solution to the housing ...
âNationalâs campaign was about tackling crime and the best they can do is a two-year long Ministerial Advisory Group,â Labour justice spokesperson Duncan Webb said. ...
âThere are more examples of charter schools failing their students than there are success stories. The coalition Government is driving to dismantle our public school system and instead promote a privatised, competitive structure that puts profits before kids,â Jan Tinetti said. ...
âThis government is choosing to deliberately mislead and withhold information, keeping our people in the dark about this governmentâs agenda and the future of our mokopuna,â said co-leader and spokesperson for Health, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer. The call comes after the demand from the Chief Ombudsman that Associate Minister of Health, Casey ...
âTodayâs climate announcement by Simon Watts makes clear the National Government is simply paying lip service to meeting its climate change targets,â Megan Woods said. ...
National is choosing to make life harder for workers by taking away the rights our communities have fought hard for. Here's how theyâre taking workers backwards. ...
Australia, Canada and New Zealand today issued the following statement on the need for an urgent ceasefire in Gaza and the risk of expanded conflict between Hizballah and Israel. The situation in Gaza is catastrophic. The human suffering is unacceptable. It cannot continue. We remain unequivocal in our condemnation of ...
Attorney-General Judith Collins today reminded all State and faith-based institutions of their legal obligation to preserve records relevant to the safety and wellbeing of those in its care. âThe Abuse in Care Inquiryâs report has found cases where records of the most vulnerable people in State and faithâbased institutions were ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says the Governmentâs online safety website for children and young people has reached one million page views. âIt is great to see so many young people and their families accessing the site Keep It Real Online to learn how to stay safe online, and manage ...
TÄnÄ tÄtou katoa, NgÄ mihi te rangi, ngÄ mihi te whenua, ngÄ mihi ki a koutou, kia ora mai koutou. Thank you for the opportunity to be here and the invitation to speak at this 50th anniversary conference. I acknowledge all those who have gone before us and paved the ...
New Zealandâs payroll providers have successfully prepared to ensure 3.5 million individuals will, from Wednesday next week, be able to keep more of what they earn each pay, says Finance Minister Nicola Willis and Revenue Minister Simon Watts. âThe Government's tax policy changes are legally effective from Wednesday. Delivering this tax ...
An experimental vineyard which will help futureproof the wine sector has been opened in Blenheim by Associate Regional Development Minister Mark Patterson. The covered vineyard, based at the New Zealand Wine Centre â Te PokapĆ« WÄina o Aotearoa, enables controlled environmental conditions. âThe research that will be produced at the Experimental ...
The Coalition Government has confirmed the indicative regional breakdown of North Island Weather Event (NIWE) funding for state highway recovery projects funded through Budget 2024, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. âRegions in the North Island suffered extensive and devastating damage from Cyclone Gabrielle and the 2023 Auckland Anniversary Floods, and ...
Indonesiaâs Foreign Minister, Retno Marsudi, will visit New Zealand next week, Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced. âIndonesia is important to New Zealandâs security and economic interests and is our closest South East Asian neighbour,â says Mr Peters, who is currently in Laos to engage with South East Asian partners. ...
He aha te kai a te rangatira? He kĆrero, he kĆrero, he kĆrero. The government has reaffirmed its commitment to supporting the aspirations of NgÄti Maniapoto, Minister for MÄori Development Tama Potaka says. âMy thanks to Te Nehenehenui Trust â NgÄti Maniapoto for bringing their important kĆrero to a ministerial ...
Transport Minister Simeon Brown has thanked outgoing Chair of the Civil Aviation Authority, Janice Fredric, for her service to the board.âI have received Ms Fredricâs resignation from the role of Chair of the Civil Aviation Authority,â Mr Brown says.âOn behalf of the Government, I want to thank Ms Fredric for ...
The Government is proposing legislation to overturn a Court of Appeal decision and amend the Marine and Coastal Area Act in order to restore Parliamentâs test for Customary Marine Title, Treaty Negotiations Minister Paul Goldsmith says. âSection 58 required an applicant group to prove they have exclusively used and occupied ...
Regulation Minister David Seymour says that opposition parties have united in bad faith, opposing what they claim are âdangerous changesâ to the Early Childhood Education sector, despite no changes even being proposed yet. âIssues with affordability and availability of early childhood education, and the complexity of its regulation, has led ...
After receiving more than 740 submissions in the first 20 days, Regulation Minister David Seymour is asking the Ministry for Regulation to extend engagement on the early childhood education regulation review by an extra two weeks. âThe level of interest has been very high, and from the conversations Iâve been ...
The Coalition Government is investing $802.9 million into the Wairarapa and Manawatƫ rail lines as part of a funding agreement with the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA), KiwiRail, and the Greater Wellington and Horizons Regional Councils to deliver more reliable services for commuters in the lower North Island, Transport Minister Simeon ...
Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has announced his intention to appoint a Crown Manager to both Hawkeâs Bay Regional and Wairoa District Councils to speed up the delivery of flood protection work in Wairoa."Recent severe weather events in Wairoa this year, combined with damage from Cyclone Gabrielle in 2023 have ...
Mr Speaker, this is a day that many New Zealanders who were abused in State care never thought would come. Itâs the day that this Parliament accepts, with deep sorrow and regret, the Report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care. At the heart of this report are the ...
For the first time, the Government is formally acknowledging some children and young people at Lake Alice Psychiatric Hospital experienced torture. The final report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in State and Faith-based Care âWhanaketia â through pain and trauma, from darkness to light,â was tabled in Parliament ...
The Government has acknowledged the nearly 2,400 courageous survivors who shared their experiences during the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Historical Abuse in State and Faith-Based Care. The final report from the largest and most complex public inquiry ever held in New Zealand, the Royal Commission Inquiry âWhanaketia â through ...
With a week to go before hard-working New Zealanders see personal income tax relief for the first time in fourteen years, 513,000 people have used the Budget tax calculator to see how much they will benefit, says Finance Minister Nicola Willis. âTax relief is long overdue. From next Wednesday, personal income ...
Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Brooke van Velden says a bill that has passed its first reading will improve parental leave settings and give non-biological parents more flexibility as primary carer for their child. The Regulatory Systems Amendment Bill (No3), passed its first reading this morning. âIt includes a change ...
Two Bills designed to improve regulation and make it easier to do business have passed their first reading in Parliament, says Economic Development Minister Melissa Lee. The Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill and Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill make key changes to legislation administered by the Ministry ...
New legislation paves the way for greater competition in sectors such as banking and electricity, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly says. âCompetitive markets boost productivity, create employment opportunities and lift living standards. To support competition, we need good quality regulation but, unfortunately, a recent OECD report ranked New ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says lotteries for charitable purposes, such as those run by the Heart Foundation, Coastguard NZ, and local hospices, will soon be allowed to operate online permanently. âUnder current laws, these fundraising lotteries are only allowed to operate online until October 2024, after which ...
The Coalition Government is accelerating work on the new four-lane expressway between Auckland and WhangÄrei as part of its Roads of National Significance programme, with an accelerated delivery model to deliver this project faster and more efficiently, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. âFor too long, the lack of resilient transport connections ...
Sir Don McKinnon will travel to Viet Nam this week as a Special Envoy of the Government, Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced. âIt is important that the Government give due recognition to the significant contributions that General Secretary Nguyen Phu Trong made to New Zealand-Viet Nam relations,â Mr ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says newly appointed Commissioner, Grant Illingworth KC, will help deliver the report for the first phase of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into COVID-19 Lessons, due on 28 November 2024. âI am pleased to announce that Mr Illingworth will commence his appointment as ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters travels to Laos this week to participate in a series of Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN)-led Ministerial meetings in Vientiane. âASEAN plays an important role in supporting a peaceful, stable and prosperous Indo-Pacific,â Mr Peters says. âThis will be our third visit to ...
Construction of a new mental health facility at Te Nikau Grey Hospital in Greymouth is today one step closer, Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey says. âThis $27 million facility shows this Government is delivering on its promise to boost mental health care and improve front line services,â Mr Doocey says. ...
New Zealand is committing nearly $50 million to a package supporting sustainable Pacific fisheries development over the next four years, Foreign Minister Winston Peters and Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones announced today. âThis support consisting of a range of initiatives demonstrates New Zealandâs commitment to assisting our Pacific partners ...
Associate Education Minister David Seymour says proposed changes to the Education and Training Amendment Bill will ensure charter schools have more flexibility to negotiate employment agreements and are equipped with the right teaching resources. âCabinet has agreed to progress an amendment which means unions will not be able to initiate ...
In response to serious concerns around oversight, overspend and a significant deterioration in financial outlook, the Board of Health New Zealand will be replaced with a Commissioner, Health Minister Dr Shane Reti announced today. âThe previous governmentâs botched health reforms have created significant financial challenges at Health NZ that, without ...
Minister for Space and Science, Innovation and Technology Judith Collins will travel to Adelaide tomorrow for space and science engagements, including speaking at the Australian Space Forum. While there she will also have meetings and visits with a focus on space, biotechnology and innovation. âNew Zealand has a thriving space ...
Climate Change Minister Simon Watts will travel to China on Saturday to attend the Ministerial on Climate Action meeting held in Wuhan. âAttending the Ministerial on Climate Action is an opportunity to advocate for New Zealand climate priorities and engage with our key partners on climate action,â Mr Watts says. ...
Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones is travelling to the Solomon Islands tomorrow for meetings with his counterparts from around the Pacific supporting collective management of the regionâs fisheries. The 23rd Pacific Islands Forum Fisheries Committee and the 5th Regional Fisheries Ministersâ Meeting in Honiara from 23 to 26 July ...
The Government today launched the Military Style Academy Pilot at Te Au rere a te Tonga Youth Justice residence in Palmerston North, an important part of the Governmentâs plan to crackdown on youth crime and getting youth offenders back on track, Minister for Children, Karen Chhour said today. âOn the ...
The Government has welcomed news the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) has begun work to replace nine priority bridges across the country to ensure our state highway network remains resilient, reliable, and efficient for road users, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.âIncreasing productivity and economic growth is a key priority for the ...
Acting Prime Minister David Seymour has been in contact throughout the evening with senior officials who have coordinated a whole of government response to the global IT outage and can provide an update. The Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet has designated the National Emergency Management Agency as the ...
New Zealand and Japan will continue to step up their shared engagement with the Pacific, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. âNew Zealand and Japan have a strong, shared interest in a free, open and stable Pacific Islands region,â Mr Peters says. âWe are pleased to be finding more ways ...
New developments in the heart of North Island forestry country will reinvigorate their communities and boost economic development, Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones visited Kaingaroa and Kawerau in Bay of Plenty today to open a landmark community centre in the former and a new connecting road in ...
President Adeang, fellow Ministers, honourable Diet Member Horii, Ambassadors, distinguished guests. Minasama, konnichiwa, and good afternoon, everyone. Distinguished guests, itâs a pleasure to be here with you today to talk about New Zealandâs foreign policy reset, the reasons for it, the values that underpin it, and how it ...
Last summer when Matairangi burned, Ginny and Tom stood at the window of their lounge, watching kÄkÄ shoot skyward from the burning trees. From the distance, they looked to Ginny like pages torn from books and thrown into a bonfire. It was Tom, voice tight, who told her it was ...
Opinion: The Canadian short story writer Alice Munro â winner of the Nobel Prize in Literature in 2013 â died in May at the age of 92. Her work was about “the damage people inflict on one another in the name of love”, Deborah Treisman wrote in the New Yorker. ...
This month marks two years since the most powerful telescope ever built sent its first pictures back to earth. From its lofty vantage point, beyond the moon in orbit around the sun, the James Webb Space Telescope was tuned to observe the first stars and galaxies being born soon after ...
Comment: After Climate Change Minister Simon Wattsâ preview several weeks ago, I had some optimism about the Governmentâs emissions reduction plan. Now Iâve read the discussion document, that hope has been dashed. How can the Government propose a plan that wants to take New Zealand taxpayersâ hard-earned money, and spend ...
Christopher Luxon: hurdles The little man from National jumps hurdles in his sleep. He’s quite good at it in his dreams and even though the reality doesn’t quite match up you have to give him credit for getting up every morning and crashing into the very first hurdle of the ...
Comment: It was a good two hours into the conversation when Tyrone Marks raised the most basic of questions when I first spoke to him in 2017. âThey didnât explain the things they did to me. They never told me why. And they still havenât. Thereâs no explanation for it. ...
Madeleine Chapman rounds out Death Week on The Spinoff with a final recommendation. You can read all of our Death Week coverage here. Nothing forces you to reflect on your life and relationships quite like proximity to death. For those whose nearest and dearest have died, there are reasonably obvious ...
Whitney Greene takes us through her life in television, including the TV character sheâd like to plan a funeral for and her cow lung catastrophe on The Traitors NZ. âIf the phone rings, I have to answer it,â Whitney Greene from The Traitors NZ warns as we begin our My ...
Maddie Ballard reviews the debut essay collection of PĆneke writer Flora Feltham.In âThe Raw Materialâ, the longest essay in Flora Felthamâs dazzling debut collection, the author heads out for a run after hours of weaving and sees the world turn to textile. âPounding along the Parade, I saw the ...
Andy Christiansen, one half of the experimental rock-pop duo TRiPS, shares the tunes inspiring the bandâs perfect weekend and new release. âGood speakers, good food, good music, no distractionsâ: thatâs all you need to enjoy the psychedelic stylings of TRiPS, a new band formed by Fly My Prettiesâ Barnaby Weir ...
Celebrating our quadrennial opportunity to become experts in a bunch of sports we never normally watch.The games of the XXXIII Olympiad are upon us. Paris will host this yearâs showcase of sporting and athletic prowess, which means some late-night and early-morning viewing for us in Aotearoa.But what sports ...
The photograph is striking and beautiful, but also disturbing â a reminder that my love for John was often entangled in shame.The Sunday Essay is made possible thanks to the support of Creative New Zealand.In the spring of 1980, in Dunedin, shortly before his death, someone took a photograph ...
Get to know Babushka, our latest Dog of the Month. This feature was offered as a reward during our Whatâs Eating Aotearoa PledgeMe campaign. Thank you to Babuâs humans, Jo and Isabel, for their support. Dog name: Babushka (Babu for short) Age: 2Breed: Border Collie X poodleIf rescued, ...
Pacific Media Watch A Lebanese photojournalist who was severely wounded during an Israeli air strike in south Lebanon carried the Olympic torch in Paris this week in honour of her peers who have been wounded and killed in the field â especially in Gaza and Lebanon. Christina Assi of Agence ...
The first report in a five-part web series focused on the 15th Triennial Conference of Pacific Women taking place in the Marshall Islands this week.SPECIAL REPORT:By Netani Rika in Majuro Women continue to fight for justice 70 years after the first nuclear tests by the United States caused ...
Christopher Luxon has joined with Australia and Canada's leaders in voicing support for US President Joe Biden's ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra The 2022 election brought the âteal waveâ into parliament. The next election will test whether teals, who occupy what were Liberal seats, and other independents can maintain their momentum. Joining us on the Podcast ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Ian Musgrave, Senior lecturer in Pharmacology, University of Adelaide Pixavri/Shutterstock A major Federal Court class action has been dismissed this week after Justice Michael Lee ruled there was not enough evidence to prove the weedkiller Roundup causes cancer. Plaintiff Kelvin ...
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Key is not the only one at fault here, Goff is playing his game, and the media chase ratings rather than fair democracy. But he can lead on this or he can diss us and try and do his own thing.
Key and Goff can pick and choose who they will debate with. And we can pick and choose who to vote for.
One thing is for sure: Neither one of them is interested and in full support of MMP.
Er, no. Both have obviously got their heads around MMP, Labour formally and National by virtue of their electorate deals with ACT and United Future. Goff has said his major reservation is coat-tailing. National’s major reservation is that Labour might win.
MMP does not mean coalition deals or whoring and supply agreements.
It is not a de-facto FPP agenda driven race to do as much damage as possible before the next election. We have not yet had a MMP government and i hope to see at least one before i shake loose this mortal coil.
What is a MMP government?
It is so simple. A group of people who a whole bunch of electorates said represent them,
sit in a big room. Nominations are put forward for PM. A vote is taken. continued untill resolved. The PM nominates a cabinet, votes, objections, votes etc for a week or so maybe then reality transpires, things settle down and just like that we have a MMP Government.
It is a group of elected people in a room, drawing bills from ballots and debating them untill consensus is achieved and the process of Parliamentary Democracy is implemented fully.
If it takes eight months to agree on a tax cut it takes eight months. If your pet roading project gets suspended due to the Country’s sudden desire to assist the victims of , i don’t know, say an Earthquake, then the Government presents a choice for the Parliament to decide.
it is not the agenda of a Party but the decisions of a Parliament that should dictate a Nation’s future,
Couldn’t agree more freedom.
I’d like to see something like that too. It won’t happen, unless the current status quo is given a big shakeup, and that will only happen if voters initiate it.
It is up to us. It is up to the people! It is that simple. Some wise words were said in a cheesy movie many many years ago “no-one said it was going to be easy, at least no-one said it to me”
We must take control of our own Democracy and stop allowing the dictatorial manifestos of bankers to populate the stromwaters of history with our children’s futures
The switch from aggressive oppositional politics to representative politics. No single party leads and the bills are determined by the populace and actually debated upon their merits rather than the closed ideology of a party.
yup, sounds good doesn’t it ?
-and this from, according to TVOR, a rabid right wing nutter. Nutter? well that depends on which of my friends you speak to. But if i am right wing either the left is really in a lot more trouble than any of us ever realised or the right is getting desperate for membership đ
Key is primarily at fault. Â Goff said that he would debate with the others of Key would. Â It is Key’s insistence that means it will not happen.
Stop trying to blame Goff.
Is this the new diversionary meme of the day?
Shall we now spend all day debating how “being prepared to debate with the others” means “not prepared to debate with the others”?Â
Goff’s reaction didn’t look good either. He could get a few lessons off Russell Norman on how to look like an Opposition leader.
But Pete you are suggesting Goff is refusing to debate with the others.
Â
He is not.
Then we have to impress upon him how vital it is that he attend ALL debates. Leaves Jonky pulling his pud.
thisis remeniscent of the Clark-Key arrangements in 2008.
The more thiungs change the more they stay the same…
Yesterday, a friend send me a link to a doco called Defamation. It is a film made by a young Israeli Jewish director called Yoav Shami and in the film he poses the question; What is Anti-Semitism today?
And I found it to be an honest journey into one of the most controversial subjects on our planet today. From young Israelis travelling to Poland to confront the horrors of the concentration camps and the anti Defamation league, Rabbis in New York and Russia to the Anti Zionist Uri Avnery, and Norman Finkelstein the entire Scala of emotions such as a sense of exceptionalism, pain, anger, grief and the need to progress into the future are being addressed in a thought provoking manner.
Well worth watching!
…young Israelis travelling to Poland to confront the horrors of the concentration camps
Young Israelis are going to Poland? Why?
Why don’t they travel a few kilometres and visit the modern-day equivalent of the Warsaw Ghetto?
Good question and one which is actually addressed (Or rather their lack of empathy) in the doco.
their lack of empathy
Actually, many young Israelis do feel empathy for the victims of their government’s crimes. Thousands of them refuse to “serve” in the IDF, and many Israelis (young and old) go to the Occupied Territories to attempt to prevent some of the depradations of the “settlers”—such as uprooting of their olive trees, burning their crops, and harassing and beating children on their way to school.
It’s not easy, especially when the IDF “soldiers” just stand by, doing nothing, and let bullies like this do what they like…
Indeed!
Would like to watch yesterday’s parliamentary messages of condolence to the Norwegian people. Is there a replay link?
http://inthehouse.co.nz/search/apachesolr_search/norway%20tragedy
Â
messages of condolence to the Norwegian people
What do Norwegians think about the New Zealand prime minister’s thoughtful and insightful comments on this atrocity?
They thought ‘why is Obama letting the White House wine waiter speak?’.
âwhy is Obama letting the White House wine waiter speak?â
LOL.
The replay demonstrates for the most part that we possess some real statesmen who can deliver a message from the heart on our behalf.
Goff spoke eloquently and with genuine feeling.
Phil Goff and Kennedy Graham both – with passing references to notes. Can’t say the same for the seemingly “dutiful” readings from hand-held speeches given by others…
I recently read that Labour MP Grant Robertson describe National’s candidate selection for Epsom as a “stitch-up” at the “expense of the people of Epsom who deserve some respect”.
Anthony Robins hasn’t had a strong opinion on the topic, but he commented recently that he’s starting to come down on the side of âif you canât beat them, join themâ.
Evidently Jim Anderton endorsed the “stitch-up” approach.
I look forward to Grant Robertson withdrawing his scurrilous comments about National’s Epsom candidacy announcements and acknowledging the practices in Eppsom AND Wigram as politics as usual.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45jpTqjtC5Y&feature=youtube_gdata
“There is no press more shameful than the Canadian press.”
—Norman Finkelstein, at the University of British Columbia, 12 January 2009.
I agree!
So far, this is all I’ve seen in the MSM about Steven being reported to the Speaker of the House for lying.
And it’s an opinion piece by Simon Cunliffe
Did I mention I’m in bloody good company where it concerns my doubts about the official conspiracy theory of 911?
Here is the first trailer of a doco which will be released in honour of the tenth anniversary of the 911 attacks! 1500 Architects and Engineers speak out. Oh and chemists, Chemistry professors and physicists too!
There will be opportunities to watch the doco in Hamilton, Wellington, Christchurch and Auckland as we mourn those lost as a result of those attacks
What was in building 7 ?
Lots of high grade explosives and a crack team of CIA black ops demolition experts according to the voices in my head.
I am finally quite intrigued by all this building collapse stuff, and admit to not having looked at it in detail before and in fact skated over the long discussions on this blog. Time to catch up a bit.
Who? and Why? are the big questions. Were explosives used to enhance the actual demolition while the planes were what got everyoneâs attention, the ideological hit so to speak. People with explosives had been apprehended in the basements of the WTC years before I do remember.
It is so counter intuitive to consider that even the yankee imperialists would pull such a stunt in their own backyard.
Funny that you should mention the 93 attacks! Turns out the FBI wanted to bomb the buildings then too. Here is a doco with regards to that event.
They have done it multiple times TM.
Here is Northwoods which was called of. There is the gulf of Tonkin incident which started the Vietnam war. The sinking of the Maine which started the American Spanish war
And yes, it took me about three months after I started reading up on this before I could even begin to contemplate the evil involved in these events if the official Conspiracy theory could not have happened. It was terrifying.
Four years of ridicule pales to absolute insignificance to having to admit to myself that what the US government tried to sell us could not have happened the way they said is did.
i recommend to begin at the beginning
http://www.question911.com/linkout.php?filename=Building%20the%20World%20Trade%20Center.wmv
this is a publicly available documentary made during the WTC construction. it falls outside of all agendas from any parties involved. It existed unchanged and is the most accurate vehicle to fully grasp the intense construction methods employed in a project designed to withstand multiple strikes from aircraft. Familiarise yourself with the structure. Then re read the official story, and the simple fact that planes, fire damage and jetfuel cannot bring down hundreds of thousands of tonnes of welded and riveted steel.
here are some of the earlier docos on 9/11
http://www.question911.com/linksall.htm
there are many recent doco’s, see Trev for current lists, i recommend anything by A&E for 9/11 truth and also the recent doco called Zero. The more recent ones deal purely with the science for that is where the answers lay
TVOR
do You even know what Building 7 was?
Are you aware of what was housed there?. Can you stop shitting on the graves of innocent people, it is not funny. There is no conspiracy theory, there is a mountain range of incontravertable fact which destroys the potholes of an official story a thousand times over. If you were told the official story in any other context than the nightly news you would have asked for your money back from the ticket office. Do some research for yourself on one of the most heinous crimes ever perpetrated on the free world. Or do like the look of blood on your hands?
I love the look of blood on my hands, freedom, and I hate it when my stigmata heal. I’m sorry I don’t buy the rightwing 911 fantasy and that upsets you so much. Building 7 collapsed because a larger building fell on it. That’s the story, right there. No domestic conspiracy, no CIA, no black ops, just the most succesful guerilla attack in modern times.
Â
I appreciate that there are some lefties whose anti-americanism will always make them suckers for this kind of immaturity, but the fact remains that the only people shitting on the graves (as you so diplomatically put it) are the Tea Party types and their dimwitted or wilfully naive overseas followers.Â
Â
 Ten years on and still not a shred of evidence. And this in the country where even a simple hotel burglary can’t be succesfully carried out without bringing down a government.
TVOR
To make such an ignorant statement only declares to the world that you have not even begun to investigate for yourself any of the data you have been supplied on numerous occasions. Your willingness, and that of many others, to swallow the story is a trauma that societies never fully recover from. Those that remain deaf to the screams of the murdered, will still have to face their own conscience when truth finally defeats the hate.
As I said, not a shred of evidence in 10 years. No emails, no phone calls, no whistleblowers, no proof what so fucken ever. Nobody amongst the vast army needed to pull off this Mission Impossible who has ever dobbed in the rest or tried to sell his story to the media. Indeed, not one story in the media of any merit whatsoever in a country where a President can’t even shag the help without it being a major constitutional crisis.
Get back to me when the coppers start making arrests and I’ll take an interest. Till then, it’s just pants and more fool you for being a tool of the frothing right.
Manhattan project
130.000 employees most of whom only found out what they had been working on when the news broke of the bombings in Japan.
There are many whistle blowers who have come forward with regrds to 911 but people like Barry Jennings and Danny Jovenko the demolition expert in the trailer have either had car accidents or died under mysterious circumstances and there are several Whistleblowers who only want to talk if and only if there is a formal investigation with independent investigators and protection for them.
Anthony Shaffer was a high clearance intelligence officer testified to the 911 Commission about how his investigation was stopped into the alleged hijackers during operation able danger and it cost him his career. He was one of many officers and other people who came forward but whose testimony did not appear in the final report.
Many members of the 911 commission have denounced the final report because they felt they had been lied to by the military and other high officials
So no evidence at all, then? It’s so strange that among the cast of thousands who perpetrated this crime, not one has dropped a dime, either publicly or anonymously. It’s almost like it never happened, but then, that’s what they’d like us to think, eh.
Â
You’re dead right that a lot of Manhatten project workers were kept in the dark about the true aims of the project. That’s one of the reasons it was so succesful. It has nothing to do with a conspiracy though, it’s just routine in the military to keep stuff on a need to know basis, particularly in wartime.
first up, it only took a few dozen to pull this off as the level of authority gave all the cover for any technical or logistical aspect to be implemented.
One example: When a team is hired to paint fireproofing onto steel and told they are applying a new fire retardant, they do not get told they are painting a high tech thermade agent that will result in the pulverising of hundreds of tonnes of concrete into pyroclastic clouds of dust.
you just said why are there no whistle blowers blah blah–then go on to say how the military in war keeps things quiet, what the hell do you think is going on today…if you do not see we are in a state of war then you are absolutely without hope. Perhaps what you do not realise is who the combatants are?
what did Dubya say?
‘ you are with us or against us ‘
you really think you are one of the us? good luck with that
Pick your side very carefully tvor. Your grandchildren will be watching.
You only get to choose once and history will be the book-keeper, not your back slapping, trade chomping, soul swilling mates
Jeez TVoR do you actually stop and read what you write sometimes?
People (Nowhere does it say that if the military does something in secret it isn’t conspiring) who organise something in secret are conspiring. Period.
Conspiring is the most common crime. Banks do it, the military does it (In covering up friendly fire or other war crimes), out leaders do it and the common criminal at the street corner who decides together with his mates to rob a liquor store does it.
The Manhattan project can arguably be called a conspiracy. For those of us who think Nuclear weapons are an abomination it sure is.
Second; were do you get the “rabid right” from. If we are right it was the rabid right in the form of say the neocons (New American Century) and the military industrial complex who had both the means, the motivation and the opportunity to organise it.
If we are right it was the likes of Cheney and Rumsfeld whom even by the easiest of standards can not be called left wing who were involved. If we are right the Americans are no longer in control of their own country because most people who voted fro Obama did so because he promised to stop the wars but instead he started 4 additional wars: Pakistan, Libya, Soedan and Yemen. Black or white is not the issue here but the fact that he lied and that he follows the same disastrous path as his so called right wing predecessor! Â
Most 911 truthers are vehemently anti war. Especially the wars started in the aftermath of 911 and want a return to a peaceful coexistence with the rest of the planet and be able to rebuild America in peace with their fellow man. What is so right wing about that?
If we are right and the US has been hijacked by very dangerous greedy people I can’t (Although I’m a pacifist myself) really fault a lot of Americans for wanting to be able to arm themselves against these idiots destroying the planet with their Depleted Uranium weapons. So what is so rabid right wing about that?
Alex Jones whom you might call a red neck right wing Texan loud mouth is the only one who will have Cynthia McKinney on his show and she is a black ex congress woman standing for the Green party of America when she is in Libya reporting on the many sorties and bombardments of NATO and the US. So how is that Rabid right wing?
Â
Cheers, guys. As I said earlier if you ever come up with any proof, let me know. Ten years and counting …
Â
Without wanting to rub your nose in it, freedom, you are buying into a right wing fantasy, perpetrated by people who think Cheney is a softy liberal. The same people who have just been in the news trying to bankrupt America to stop that uppity Kenyan from helping the poor.Â
Â
It’s entirely your business whether you want to waste time on something that has no credibility or substance and serves the ends of the enemies of everything else you appear to believe in, but every time this reactionary bollocks is aired here, it wastes a shit load of bandwidth and time, including my own. But I’m happy to continue to mock the madness and I’ll still ask the same question every time it does come up. And that question is, where is the proof?
Â
tvor, which building did you say fell on building 7? I just can’t see it anywhere.
TVoR,
see you choose to ignore my request for an explanation as to why 911 truth seekers equate with rabid right while lashing out unmotivated by reasonable arguments it seems at to why he or I are from the Rabid right!
Added to that VTO request you tell him what building fell on WTC7 so how about it?
And before you go into bullshit mode let me point out that NIST after 7 years came up with a scenario that even they thought was not very likely to happen and that they dismissed the damage from other buildings caused the collapse scenario.
Â
vto. here’s popular mechanics summary of the NIST report on WTC7:
You’ll note that PMs description of what NIST says differs from how truthers regularly describe what NIST says. I haven’t read the full report, but I have my suspicions about who is misrepresenting it.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/debunking-911-myths-world-trade-center#wtc7
In response to Pascal’s bookie here is a link to a thorough debunking of the popular mechanics articles. It’s only part 1 of 9 but you can find the other parts on the same page.
Here is an analysis the collapse of WTC 7 of Tony Samboti engineer and listen to him thouroughly debunking NIST and Popular mechanics.
Popular mechanics… FFS!
Predictable eve. But the question remains, and it’s a simple one. Is PMs description of the NIST report accurate/
That’s what I linked to, a description of the NIST report.
Youtubed ‘debunkings’ aside, what does the NIST report say?
Who describes it more accurately?
But why put the YouTube commentary on the building collapses “aside”? In many of those videos, highly qualified expert architects and engineers speak, as well as people who were at ground zero.
Why exclude them from your consideration?
Because unless it explains that PM is totally misrepresenting what the NIST report says, it is beside the point I am discussing.
Truthers often talk about what the NIST report says. I’ve not read the full report. But very often, when I check aspects of the report against what truthers claim about what it says, I find that truthers are not being particularly truthful.
So the question remains. Is PMs description of what the NIST report says more accurate, or less accurate than what truthers say about the NIST report.
Well P’s b, thanks for the popular mechanics info. To be honest I don’t know what to believe. Considerable building and engineering knowledge and experience tells me that the building should not have come down. At all. And the way it fell.
Yet then I read the “official” story and that nakes some sense though very limited.
And on top of that I do not trust “official” much at all. Everybody on this earth conspires, many on a near daily basis from things as small as staying in bed pretending to be asleep so someone else has to go out and get the paper in the frost, to as large as Bill English planning with John Key and Nick Smith to cut ACC while at the same time knowing they will restore it a later date for political pleasures, to even larger again such that JFK’s head blasts back in one direction when the bullet came from a completely different direction. Anybody who says conspiracies do not exist is a true fool. They are part and parcel of manwomankind’s heart and soul. In fact such secretive planning is probably what has led manwomankind to the place it is in today.
The collapse of these buildings is of great interest and I continue to watch. I just wish I could see tvor’s larger building which fell on wtc7…
Re conspiracies in general vto, sure, they are real.
But they are hard to get the truth of, so it comes down to guess work and evaluation right.
On this one, what kills it for me is this:
Assuming AQ was involved, (and there is very very good reason to believe they did indeed recruit and train people to hijack planes and fly them into buildings on 9/11), then
For it to be a false flag op, then the govt had to know that the AQ attack was going to take place. They had to know for certain. They had to have target details, time details, the works. They then had to set up the black op to make the AQ attack worse than it would otherwise have been, by somehow rigging those three buildings to come down in such a way that the aircraft crashes would not upset the demolition set up. They had to set this up under severe time constraints, with limited personnel and be confident that no one would discover that these buildings were rigged for demo.
The demo itself, would have to sound like no other demo I’ve heard. They all sound like a long series of large but discrete explosions as the building is destroyed. No such series can be heard while those buildings come down. So it must have been a new technique with special explosives. Fair enough. But again, that increases the risk of failure/detection. Above someone posits that the explosives were disguised as fire retardent paint and applied by unwitting painters. those painters would have to have had as a term of the contract for fire proofing the WTC, that they use this paint sourced by the contractee. The paint would have to look at act enough like normal paint that it would fool them. etc.
All of this, through every step of the operation, going back who knows how long. All of it set up just to make an attack they knew was coming, worse.
Remember too that he Bush gang had been downplaying and mocking the idea of terrorism as a threat. They were far more focussed on star wars spending and ‘rogue nations’ flinging nukes.
So if the conspirators were confident enough that AQ were going to attack, right down to knowing the target set (incidentally, Mohammad Atta only confirmed that target set to AQ leaders in afghanistan about 1 week before launch, but we’ll ignore that for the moment), if they knew AQ was going to fly airliners full of civilians into buildings, why wouldn’t they just let them do it and use that as the excuse for war.
Such an attack would already be cause for war. Far easier and much less risky to prepare a propaganda campaign saying that AQ were in cahoots with whoever it was you wanted to attack. Knowing they were going to attack yuo could be releasing forged documents in the month before the attack saying anything you like. Then when the attack comes; boom. the population goes crazy for you. Why on earth run the extraordinary risk of organising an incredibly complicated black op to achieve something you could achieve by just doing nothing?
Instead, they had been down playing and ignoring the risk of AQ, they treated AQ as a joke and a non threat prior to 9/11.
That oversight failure is enough to warrant the secrecy and lies and coverups truthers point to in the 9/11 report.
Hmmm, roger some most of that. Battery almost out … have to get back
Swearing and arrogant abuse are not good debating tools, just saying..
As for no one has ever tried to sell his story to the media, how do you know? Do you think the media would dare run it? Grow up! As for the President shagging the help, I presume you’re referring to Clinton and Monica… It’s good to see you remember a scandal from 12 years or more ago, it makes such a good distraction from more recent and more heinous crimes! Gullible twat.
“Swearing and arrogant abuse are not good debating tools, just saying.. ”
“Gullible twat.”
I guess you’d have a lot in common with the truthers, Deb, what with all the blind faith involving in worshipping the unprovable.
tvor, now that you’re back can you please tell me which “larger building it was that fell on building 7”?
vto.
WTC 1
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/factsheet/wtc_qa_082108.cfm
aha I see, the falling debris
hmmmmm.. think think think
Cheers, Bookie, and apologies for not spotting your question earlier, vto.
vto, other claims worth looking hard at are the free fall claims. Look at the vids. Watch the debris. The cloud falls faster than the building, obscuring it.
Here, seeing folks are linking to youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLShZOvxVe4&feature=player_embedded
Here’s footage of wtc7 burning, with live voice track of police and fire peeps. They are already saying they think it will come down.
The wtc7 vid
“Iâve not read the full report. But very often, when I check aspects of the report against what truthers claim about what it says, I find that truthers are not being particularly truthful”.
PB, I’ve read the full report. Of course like all things done with hindsight you can pick on the minutiae, but I think it explains a lot. Funny that no 911ers I know have read it. Nor do have they been to any sites that try to debunk their conspiracy theories. They spend hours watching and pausing videos but no time reading the interviews of eyewitnesses and others who were directly affected – just other people’s interpretations of what they said. (Note I’m just talking about the ones I know).
Well now having spent some mini time watching various vids etc on wtc7,,, on the balance of probablities the jury is still out imo.
At least the issue won’t go away for while so I’ll continue to watch for some sign of weapons of mass destruction…
VTO,
Please take into account that WTC 7 fell in the late afternoon many hours after the other buildings had collapsed and that the collapse was announced by both CNN and the BBC between an hour and 20 minutes before the collapse happened and that until then not a single steel framed building other than WTC 1 and 2 had collapsed and that it never happened afterwards with the exception of controlled demolition
If you think ‘gullible twat’ is either swearing or arrogant abuse, then you must be an ickle bubby! đ
Did I say you could call me Deb? No, I didn’t, and you can’t, as that’s what my friends call me – fake lefties will never be my friends!. The sneer about my religion is characteristic – but unwarranted.
Watch the footage and then tell me WHAT building fell on it. It was a controlled demolition Supports kicked out and the building just falls down into it’s own space. I did notice something ‘funny’ All the buildings went straight down at first.
they go straight down except for the top of Tower 1 where twenty plus stories are falling out from the line of the building, in an arc, as it should, with the path of least resistance. Then ‘pooof’ it explodes into dust and collapses straight downwards against its predetermined axis. Completely against all known physical laws
Here is a presentation of Dr. Graham McQueen about how the towers collapsed. It is in four parts and is a very dispassionate analysis of what happens and how it could and more importantly could not have happened and for you information. Graham is a Zen Buddhist and lifelong peace activist. Nothing rabid or right wing about him.
Part 1, 2, 3, 4
Do stop being such a plonker VoR. I know I am more left-wing than you are, as you’ve confessed to being a Randbot, and no matter how many of the blinkered tell me they’re “left-libertarians”, I know there’s no such animal… Being in favour of marijuana and abortion for all doesn’t make you a left-winger. Neither does being a try hard, oops, I mean hard out atheist. So many followers of the official story simply hate Muslims!
You’re wilfully blind about the WTC. I’ve yet to come across a right-winger who wasn’t deeply in love with all things American, which probably explains it.
I think you’ve got me confused for someone else, Deb. I did admit to once owning a Rush album, but that’s as far as it goes in Randian terms. I’m a socialist, have been all my adult life. Also an atheist, a vegetarian and a soccer player, which makes for some interesting discussions with the red necked and red nosed farmers at my semi rural local most Friday nights!
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BTW, most of my contact with people of the muslim faith was on the soccer field at Hagley Park in Sunday arvo pick up games with the immigrant community. Wonderful, peaceful people who taught me a lot about humility and the love of the game.
Â
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What ever it was someone wanted it gone big time, but it begs a coupla questions. How long was building 7 rigged for doomsday ? Did they have advance notice of the hijackings and targets ?. Who really runs things in the US ? Damn time for the tinfoil hat again.
I’d suggest the most heinous crimes were the coalitions retaliation strikes on Iraq and Afghanistan to find weapons of mass destruction and the links between Saddam and Al Queda – remind me how many innocent civilians have died during that?
Absolutely right, Ian!
CIA head quarters, Giuliani’s emergency bunker which was deserted for some reason before the first building collapsed, and the building was twice reinforced to withstand a nuclear blast. Oh, and all the legal documentation pertaining to Enron and other Wall street scandals.
Here is a list of Tenants up until 2001
Not the sort of building were 19 Arab terrorists can just walk into. Here is a witness telling about what he saw in the building before the other buildings collapsed. (This witness by the way died under very suspicious circumstances)
Travrev, you should add he died just before his testimony was to be given in a pivotal civil case taken up by the families to re-open an investigation into the murder of their children, their families and their friends
Please feel free to share this watershed moment with me and give all the info you have. đ
Edge. Abyss.
leave Chomsky alone…his betrayal of logic is the crime in that video. He has rejected so many of the values he once espoused. He has become a somewhat tragic figure with a diminshing authority and a growing pool of detractors for his ridiculous kowtowing to the official story.
None of which negates his fine work in Linguistics and associated fields
a person’s views and a person’s work can be exclusive of each other, look at politicians, some of them were once productive members of society
What’s more Gormy,
Chomsky came around and said that we have not been told the truth about what happened on 911 and let’s face it the man is in his eigthies and has done excellent work but he’s a bit passed it.
hey travellerrev, do you know of or have you ever heard a single person refer to Cheney as a softy liberal? just about split my hernia scar when i read that one.
Can’t say that I have F.
Satan, Prince of Darkness, He who shoots friends in the face, Bastard, the real president! Many names but never a softy liberal or it must have been the people to the right of him who felt he should abandon his daughter for being gay! ROFL.
Ahem. Try googling ‘cheney too liberal’. About 1,630,000 hits as of a minute ago.
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But seriously guys, you’re not fools. You know this, along with the pathetic birther idea, is an obsession of the right, more specifically the ‘states rights’ and similar anti-federalists. You’re like Dylan’s Mr Jones; you know something is happening here, but you don’t know what it is.Â
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I’ve got a proposition for you both. Why don’t you put up a left wing case for the truther movement? Write it up as a guest post and I’m sure the mods will give consideration to putting it up. I’m not assuming either of you are left wing, but I’m sure you are more than capable of framing the argument in left wing terms, if that’s at all possible.
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Or maybe give me the name of one of the on the ground conspirators and the proof against that individual. Whichever’s easier for ya.
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Edit: Couldn’t find any live Bob, but here’s some kid giving it heaps.
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So perfectly blindfolded that you think the darkness you see so clearly is the reality of the world.
So unquestioning, unable to draw out a single conclusion or supposition which has not been spoonfed through official channels.
Every idea fragment which does not fit exactly into your predetermined narrative dismissed.
Fighting so hard to stay in the dark.
Nicely put, CV. You were talking about them, right? ; )
There is a huge volume of info, dis-info and opinion out there Voice on all sides of the 9/11 argument. I am skeptical as to the inside job claims but when people start quoting Popular Mechanics as an authoritative source-really…
The collapse of those buildings looks a hell of a lot like a routine retired Chicago project going down to me.
An ugly munted few floors and some still left standing makes more sense.
A left wing view? Well, historically whatever the US ruling class is up to can only be bad news for most of us. From a materialist perspective, if it was a false flag they are not going to admit it are they. Look at the US roll of dishonour of invasions and dirty tricks. The UK supporting Saddam in earlier years, surely not? Blairâs âDossierâ -what fuckers.
3 large steel framed buildings suffering significant assymetrical damage, falling completely symmetrically on to their own foot prints, with large percentages of the building structures ejected as a fine particulate dust during the fall, instead of collapsing into rubble, leaving pools of molten metal at ground zero which were roasting hot more than a week after collapse.
These facts are not in dispute.
Tiger, I quoted PMs report of what the NIST report said.
The NIST report says something. What it says is verifiable. That NIST report would be the ultimate authority on what the NIST report says, but secondary summations are much easier to read.
If PM is misrepresenting what the NIST report says, or if wikipedia is also misrepresenting what the NIST report says, I’d love to be corrected, and PM should get all the scorn one can muster.
By the same token, that scorn should be applied to truthers if it is they who are misrepresenting what the NIST report says. Right?
its not an argument about who can quote the NIST report most precisely. Nor about where ‘scorn’ should be heaped.
Ok, it’s a question about what the NIST report says. Is the PM summary accurate, or is what truthers say accurate?
Is it true that the NIST report said structural damage from WTC1 played no role in the collapse?
Does the NIST report say the fires were small?
Does it say that what they found was unlikely to cause the building to collapse?
These are all claims that truthers regularly make.
And they regularly heap scorn on nontruthers. Read the comments in this thread.
I think I’ve been pretty polite, all things considered.
The only “truthers” you should listen to are the ones who have done specific investigative work, and are preferably highly quaified architects and engineers themselves.
To quote a bunch of peeps making random comments on a YouTube clip as “Truthers” in order to demonstrate the lack of credibility of the very real questions being asked does not seem fair.
Personally I think the material presented by Architects and Engineers for 9/11 is pretty reasonable and reasoned.
Here is a video of two scientists who analysed the NIST report and one of them (Kevin Ryan) was working for Underwriters laboratories and got fired for speaking out with regards to the NIST fire testing for which his company was hired to do.
Both Proffesor jones and Dr. Kevin Ryan speak in the AE911truth video which will air in September.
Also in this video is a professional smelter who adds to their NIST debunking.
About NIST. They only reported until the “inevitable” point of collapse and as such felt they did not have to explain how the buildings could have exploded into a pyroclastic flow and collapse into their own footprint within free fall speed. I hope you will agree with me that that is unscientific to say the least.
The remark that NIST states that their collapse theory has only a low probability of actually happening was a remark in the WTC 7 report and was added after they had to withdraw several hypothesis because there was so much criticism and peer pressure from other scientists. Â
Colonial Viper is correct and you should only study the Architects & Engineers and scientist 911 sites to stay within scientifically and peer reviewed boundaries. Everything else is for now relatively unimportant as a lot of questions remain but the unexplained free fall collapses of the three buildings, the Nano thermite residue and the millions of molten micro spheres are in and of itself proof that two planes could not have caused the collapses and if that is so we need a new and fully independent investigation and let the chips fall were they may.
I am sure that there are people who think that Cheney is a liberal. I know of one who actually said so. His name is Erik Prince and he runs Blackwater now known a Xe services. He lives in Dubai and is by most 911 truthers considered to be a war criminal and part of the cabal whom we hope will be dragged before the courts for the war criminal he is.
There are enough testimonies (not in the final report) from people like Minetta putting Cheney firmly in control of some crucial events on 911 to make him very muc” a “person of interest” to be dragged before the commission who investigates the 911 crimes in the future.
Are talking about the FEMA report, the one that preceded the NIST report?
PB,
The video is about the NIST report if I am correct. I’m knackered now so don’t bite my head off as I’m trying to give the correct info. I’ll respond if need be tomorrow morning after I’ve had some kip. Cheers!
Not the video. I was wondering about this:
I can’t see anyting in the link (‘added’) that supports the claim. The FEMA report says they weren’t confident about their conclusions, which is what led to the NIST investigation…
Chomsky came around and said that we have not been told the truth about what happened on 911
Chomsky, like all reasonable people, was concerned with the makeup and the conduct of the inquiry. But he has never suggested that there is any credibility for these bizarre “inside job” fantasies. In fact, he has on several occasions expressed his impatience with the “Truther” movement, which he says is irrational and a distraction from serious criticism of the government.
and letâs face it the man is in his eigthies and has done excellent work but heâs a bit passed it.
That’s nonsense. You obviously haven’t read anything he’s written or heard anything he’s said over the last six months.
A cartoon in the Christchurch Press 1st August shows what Labour and Goff are up against.
It portrays Goff in an airport imaging security device as having no substance.(If anything it should have pictured Key as the one with image only and no substance).
Can’t remember who the cartoonist was but I can’t think of a word more emphatic than scurrilous to describe the mind of the ‘artist’ or the editor who must have Okay ed it.
It’s about the same level intellectually and politically as Fox news (specifically psycho Glenn Beck) and ethically comparable to those who orchestrated the ‘ditch the bitch’ posters during the last election campaign.
Congratulations Fairfax..You must be so proud of your professional fair and balanced approach.
How on earth does Labour counter this kind of trash? Any ideas?
It needs to get the meme out there that the MSM is unfair, unbalanced, and unquestioning. That and have separate Left leaning media channels.
Canât remember who the cartoonist was but I canât think of a word more emphatic than scurrilous to describe the mind of the âartistâ or the editor who must have Okay ed it.
So this cartoonist is unfunny, unfair, and unashamedly partisan in his support for the National government. Sounds like the mirth-free Queenstown beardie Garrick Tremain.
What the? dept:
Media reports claim Colin Craig is starting a new Conservative Party (work for the dole, usual stuff) and may stand in Epsom. He did not do too well in the supercity Mayoral contest or at organising a march in Queen St despite his dosh.
New Conservative Party. It’s “test” is an exercise in sloganeering.
FFS what a crock!! You’ll be pleased to know I did not meet the criteria to join – where is the contact link – wanted to send some abuse!
hehe my anti-virus software won’t open that page. Says it’s a potentially dangerous site.
Did the Conservative Test. I think 3 out of 19 suggests I won’t be going on their mailing list. Have a try and see if you too are a secret pinko or made of the right stuff.
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Also heard Craig on the radio this arvo. I missed the start of the interview and for five minutes I thought he was Andrew Williams talking about NZ First! Looks like he’s gonna run in Epsom, but he sounds like he’d probably personally vote for John Banks, because none of what he said was any different from the average Banks soundbite.
http://www.thenation.com/article/162390/sex-sells-sex-not-womens-sports
fascinating piece on how even sports sticks women into a box.
My question is: Who chose that ridiculous outfit for that team to wear? Please tell me it wasn’t a woman.
Apart from that, read The Nation; it has some good articles in it and it isn’t owned by Rupert Murdoch.
A while ago I read that National had bugeted a 40% increase in the prison budget. How do I get an actual breakdown of the math on this.
Suggest you contact one of the private firms that will be tendering for this. The 40% increase in budget will equate to the 50% they will need to be paid and the 20% that will be cut from rehablitation
In Parliament Tau Henare is telling me that if I don’t want to belong to an organisation I don’t need to.
So, I don’t want to belong to this government; I don’t want to be bound by any of their neo-conservative attack legislation on the rights of workers, i.e. those rules that prevent New Zealanders from having a support system that believes in them and protects their rights.
great, can we have our roads, health care, and policing back?
Law,
Who is ‘we’?
Freedom of Association Bill – Moana Mackey is now telling me that only 10% of students have to demand a referendum to require voluntary student membership and it was never achieved. Yet Act is forcing this bill upon us.
I’ve been watching the Act minister Heather Roy smiling to herself thinking, finally, she has forced something upon students that they didn’t want. This is all about weakening youth’s ability to stand against future strangulation of their democratic speech and student rights to fair treatment. This is all about weakening support for workers’ rights as those students will realise to their disadvantage as they enter into the workforce.
Students and youth in general look to adults to protect their rights while they enjoy their freedoms before taking on the responsibility of looking after this country and its growing aged. I hope they forgive what this government has forced upon them as they lose their umbrella support, their support infrastructure and their physical infrastructure.
This government lied before the 2008 election about not forcing through this legislation.
Paul Hutchison; you are a liar. You lied about your promise not to drag Franklin assets into the Auckland pit of debt. Now we find out you lied to our youth. Shame on you. To think that the people of Frankin/Hunua will vote you back in just because it is a National nest speaks volumes about National/Act’s lack of credibility and National/Act’s voters’ self-respect.
How is the Labour filibuster stacking up? Will it get to the vote this parliament?
Hey Colonel Viper you know how you don’t believe Nato bombed Yugoslavia into non existance
Maybe they were trigger-happy after Srebrenica
I think you will find that when Srebrenica occurred Nato had already occupied and was in control (supposedly) of Bosnia.
In fact the wimpy Dutch were keeping order in Srebrenica but they ran away like little girls when the going got tough.
You continue to be full of it.
You didn’t know the Dutch army ran away from Srebrenica?
Hell the Dutch Government fell over that little detail
It was a disgrace as far as I am concerned and I am Dutch but the truth is that they were there in a passive capacity and were not equipped to deal with the murderous intend of the Serbian warlords. Why Holland ever committed to this role without being properly equipped to deal with these circumstances putting their soldiers in that position is something you can blame the government for but I thought at the time it was an absolute disgrace.
National is helping Act to remove the rights of students to decide whether they wanted to find 10% of students to force a referendum on whether they wanted to pay student association fees which cover a range of advocacy services and clubs, etc or not.
Since this government is removing the rights of students to decide how they want to handle their university services, I decided to remove the right of Tau Henare to speak in my House and put him on mute. He looks hilarious waving his arms about, trying to bluster over the fact that when he was in the other party Pacific… he was all for advocacy.
I’ve given him a verbal lobotomy; it couldn’t happen to a more deserving guy.
Jum, did you ever go to university?
What is the difference in forcing students into associations that they do not want to be a part of and forcing motorists into being members of the AA?
You seriously are a fuckwit; before student unions students had pitiful rights. In the modern age of higher education, where dollars are everything, their voice needs to be heard.
Earlier this week the students were questioning the overseas travel at Auckland Uni and whether this was value for money. Can you imagine if a single student had the gaul to do this – they would be out.
What you and your ilk do not like is anyone collectively challenging you value system.
If this goes through, a bill supported by a party that gained 3.7% share of the vote, it will be one of the saddest days for democracy in NZ.
RWNJs love breaking down civic and collective institutions. Atomising people into their individual selves weakens them and breaks communities and resistance down.
LWNJ’s love being control freaks. See, I can throw around pointless slogans too.
LWNJ’s aren’t the ones ignoring the democratic wishes of students.
you mean by letting them decide if they want to join or not? yeah…. that sounds like they are taking away their democratic rights….
Yep – most students don’t want to associate with universities that have a large chunk of freeloaders making student-provided services untenable. NACT are taking that option away.
Ummm no, they weren’t “pointless slogans”; RWNJs really like to breakdown civil and collective institutions.
The only collective institutions that RWNJs like are socialist groups of billionaires, major shareholders and other investors.
play the ball, not the man.
I have now created the “Standard Commentators Association” as you have commentated here, you are a member. Your bill for $400 for this 1/4 is in the mail.
Ian, is anyone being stopped from participating in the associations?
Enclosed is my formal notification of conscientious objection to membership of your association. Failure to act on this will result in me choosing to comment on any of the other half-dozen leftish political blog sites in NZ.
If only it was that easy for me to opt out of my Uni Student Association…
When was this?
started in 03
Could have gone to Waikato or Auckland Uni (one or both were voluntary around then)- nobody forced you to go where you did.
“Force” my arse.Â
   Â
Nobody “forces” anyone to go to that particular tertiary education provider, if membership of that particular students’ association one can object to membership, if there are issues around objection procedures the association needs to work under the democratic rules of societies’ legislation, and if the association is completely unresponsive to the needs of students a simple petition necessitates a referendum of all students regarding membership criteria.
  Â
ACT’s last gasp is to overrule all that and the democratic wishes of students with a dictat from Wellington. When our PM can’t remember whether he opposed sporting contacts with Apartheid South Africa.
McFlock, when I went to Uni I had no option but to join, it was on my invoice every semester, if I wanted the expensive piece of paper, I had to pay the fees for an association that I did not want to belong to. Admittedly, they did a fair amount of good at my campus, I would rather have had the option of joining or staying out.
You are now also enrolled in the association of commentators at The Standard, your bill is also in the mail for this 1/4
Really? No obtion for conscientious objection whatsoever?
  Â
My uni assoociation did, although I never bothered with it. I’m not a Jehova’s Witness or a self-obsessed tory who’s convinced I’ll never need help.
 Â
I bet you never used any association services, either (/bullshit).
Other than the going to the new bar that they got on campus…… no I honestly did not. And I am not a Jehova’s witness either, nor am I self obsessed.
what a waste of space
will just have to defeat you RWNJs at the polls
So other than any association reps on university committees including the Council, academic policies regarding fairness and clarity in marking or library use, class reps, (and probably student publications, events around Orientation and so on), you only ever went to the pub a couple of times and never joined a club or society in three years.
Yep, you got nothing from your membership.
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Difference is The Standard doesn’t provide you with counselling services, discounts on things, sports facilities, clubs, funding, meeting space, medical services, legal back up, etc.
I’ll gladly pay the $400 per year when you start offering them to me đ
NB I already pay $80 a month to my union for similar representation; whilst I begrudge the $80 when it is deducted I also acknowledged that others who have paid before me have fought for and won many of the rights I now enjoy, not only as a worker, but as a human being.
Law,
The NActs hate any support systems that strengthen people. If you can force people into individual actions you can weaken them.
Why am I bothering to answer your question when others have said it so much better?
I know – because you’re a f……….. who needs a truth being constantly repeated until it sinks in.
…decided to remove the right of Tau Henare to speak in my House…
One of the few good things Trevor Mallard has done in his mainly odious career was punching Henare in the precincts of parliament.
… The precincts of parliament? What part of the anatomy is that? Watching that waste of space during the debate this evening, suggests that Henare is still suffering from concussion. He is obviously an embarrassment to the intellects in his party – they must cringe when he opens his mouth.
He is obviously an embarrassment to the intellects in his party â they must cringe when he opens his mouth.
If National Party members had any standards at all, they would cringe whenever Key opens his mouth—especially his statement that the shooting of Norwegians by a Norwegian Christian fanatic is “why we are in Afghanistan”.
Did you watch the link above of Key reading his “condolences” speech?
Did you watch the link above of Key reading his âcondolencesâ speech?
Yes I did. Key’s speech (Part 1) was as uninspiring and insipid as anything he has delivered, though it was interesting to see that he has dropped his grave assurances that “this is why our troops are in Afghanistan”. Note, straight behind Key, the hapless Hawkes Bay drone Chris Tremain dutifully looking concerned and occasionally nodding his head throughout the speech. Talk about a wasted life.
I skipped the rest, except for John Boscawen (Part 5), who seems utterly bewildered and out of his depth. As usual. Note that the grossly under-performing National backbencher Alan (“I am not a stupid man”) Peachey is fast asleep throughout Boscawen’s speech.
Anyone see the T.V. news showing Bill English being removed from the chamber today?
For what?
Precisely, but imagine if it had been an opposition MP. Headline news, particularly in election year.
A prediction – the first post on Open Mike tomorrow will be Pete George and it will contain a link to his blog…
I was correct
PB,
Could not find a way to link to the previous thread so I’m responding a fresh.
Let me start that over the many years I have done this the pile of books, rapports, counter reports, video’s, radio programs has grown so voluminous that errors are almost inevitable. that does not mean they ar on purpose or to mislead.
Having said that Here is a link to the response of a group of scientists and engineers who respond to Both NIST and FEMA in their peer reviewed article in the Bentham open journal. This was written before the NIST WTC7 report was published and it shows you are right and that the FEMA report stated that their best hypothesis had a low chance of occurring.
However NIST had to detract their timeline for the collapse of WTC 7 upon strenuous and well founded criticism after they denied that WTC 7 had collapsed in free fall speed when the same group of Engineers and Scientists reviewed their report on the collapse in the peer review process. As it should be I might add.
Now you can say: see, see she’s got it wrong but the fact is that two scientific institutions financed by the US government have not bee able to give satisfying answers to the urgent question as to why three steel framed buildings could collapse (Two in an exploding fashion and one in an imploding fashion) into a pyroclastic flow and that until today this only happened on 911 even though more devastating fires in more fragile build buildings have not been able to replicate these collapses other then ones rigged with explosives.
No proper criminal investigation has ever been allowed to take place and a small group of people has become even more hideously wealthy in the war efforts that followed. Â
Have to be off, won’t be able to answer until midday.
Here’s what NIST say about the rate of collapse as far as I can make out:
Link for that:
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/factsheet/wtc_qa_082108.cfm
PB,
Just so we are clear here. A 47 floor 186 m high building twice reinforced to withstand a nuclear blast collapses into a fine dust and steel beams just the right length to fit on removal trucks in 5.4 sec (I thought 6.5 seconds) into it’s own foot print, the path of most resistance, as the result of mere office fires and you are OK with that because the absolute free fall time would have been 3.9 sec?
Come on!!!
Here is what Physicist David Chandler (One of the people criticizing NIST with Architects and Engineers) has to say about it!Â
Whoah, that is a totally unwarranted conclusion. Structural elements which fail take time to fail. They don’t fail as if they are not there. You have to remember that a good MAJORITY of the structural beams in the building were INTACT.
What you are proposing is that all those intact beams wnet ahead and failed SIMULTANEOUSLY in such a way that they acted as if they had ZERO structural strength.
Well of course there are circumstances where that could happen to a building, and has been seen to happen before e.g. a carefully timed controlled demolition.
CV,
Just to support your comment, here is a video with both the real world collapse and the framework computer model showing completely different collapses
Forget about the fucking buildings and tell me why.
If the point was to provide a pretext for a war against Iraq, why not frame Iraq?
TGFFKAO
Did you not hear? Saddam Hussein had WMD and proven links with Osama bin Laden, more than enough to take pre-emptive action for regime change đ
Well so claimed Faux News đ
Yeah, seems a bit of a circuitous conspiracy. You want to go to war against Iraq. You need a pretext. You involve hundreds of people in your conspiracy planting explosives and such (none of whom ever leak about it).
But then, you don’t frame Iraq, the country against whom you want to go to war.
Isn’t that just a bit…insane.
gormyone
“Forget about the fucking buildings and tell me why. ”
Gold Oil Drugs
sum it up for you?
if not then you may want to recall they had to hit Afghanistan first before they could whip up the frenzy to allow the illegal and unwarranted attack on their patsy Hussein. Then as the opium trade exploded in selected areas of Afghanistan, protected by the US forces of course, they could focus on Iraq and once the first million civilians had been killed they had to fire the Army so the country could properly disintegrate and the US could supply stability to the oil pipeline, i mean the oppressed people.
But why get involved in the 9/11 plot?
Why not just use the actual AQ attacks as pretext? It’s not like everyone thought it was no big deal until after the buildings came down, and only then did the tv people start saying hell this is pretty freaky.
Even while the planes were still flying around people were describing it as the most serious and audacious terror attack in history. There is your pretext, right there.
You only need to run a false flag op when you opponent isn’t actually attacking you.
“Even while the planes were still flying around people were describing it as the most serious and audacious terror attack in history. ”
you really do come up with some amazing crap.. Weren’t you at all suspicious that within an hour of the first Tower being hit Osama was the man and every station on the planet knew it. .. kind of like when Oswald’s full bio and backstory turned up in NZ papers within hours of the event…. now back to your Airplane problem .. in the USA…any commercial aircraft that deviates from its course for whatever reason and does not respond to three calls to the flightcrew has an interceptor aircraft launched.
This did not happen for four passenger aircraft that as you state above were known to be highjacked and were tracked for over an hour over land.. The interceptors were sent out to sea.
A couple of months before 9/11 longstanding protocols were changed so all calls for interceptors had to go directly to the Secreatary of Defense. A couple of weeks after 9/11 the long standing protocols were re-introduced.
HOW and WHY…. PB.. HOW and WHY ?
I do not have time this week to continue but i am more than willing to deal with this next week. 9/11 is perhaps the most difficult subject for people to discuss, not because of the info-disnfo war, not because of the wars that it led to, not because the threat of actual terrorism is a real danger in the 21st Century. The real reason is people fundamentally do not want to accept that a small number of very powerful people conspired to slaughter millions for nothing else but Gold Oil and Drugs and the power they supply.
Freedom, perhaps you didn’t actually read my comment.
The question I’m asking is why would you need to go through with a highly risky task of rigging three buildings to blow up, when the AQ attacks alone would serve as your casus belli.
Responding that in fact, everyone was already itching for war on AQ after only one hour explains my point perfectly.
And no, I wasn’t suspicious at all about the fact that AQ was being fingered. When I first saw the shit goin down, and it became clear it wasn’ an accident, I thought, shit AQ have got their A game on.
It’s not like they hadn’t been threatening war on US soil for years. They were the obvious suspect, to everyone but the Bush administration (who were under the spell of neocons who believed that non state actors simply don’t have the capacity for this sort of thing).
“Werenât you at all suspicious that within an hour of the first Tower being hit Osama was the man and every station on the planet knew it”
Why wouldn’t they finger AQ? They people and involved in the 1993 attempt were the same crowd.
Tomorrow, tired now. And I would like to know what AQ stands for. Blond perhaps but remember English is my second language and sometimes abbreviations slide by me. Cheers
AQ = Al-Qaeda
ROFL! God, I’m blond sometimes. OK I’ll read up on it tomorrow because I really am beyond tired now. Cheers, PB.
“Structural elements which fail take time to fail”.
The way I understand it is that they had been progressively failing all day from uncontrolled fires on 10 floors. So much so, that instead of pulling the building down (as they had several others in the complex), the firemen left it to burn because they knew it was going to fall down anyway.
– Daniel Nigro, Chief of Department http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/Nigro_Daniel.txt
Ok. Once again.
Point the first:
Eve posted some statements as to what she claimed the NIST report said, saying that they had to adjust their timeline implying that the new timeline would no longer support their theory of what happened. I posted what the NIST report says. As far as I can tell, what the NIST report says is not very much like what eve claimed it said.
Point the second:
There seems to be some astonishment at what I posted. It is as if, as Rosy talked about in an earlier comment, people aren’t actually familiar with the theory they are criticising.
Instead of dealing with that, I’m asked if I believe the same tired old strawman about ‘small office fires’. It’s almost like I haven’t linked to what the actual theory is. It is quite something.
Point the third:
CV look again at the threes stages NIST talks about. When is the support for the building being lost? Stage 1, 2, or 3?
Are you completing a project for a psych paper or are you just a glutton for punishment ?
No, actually I think that difficult though it may be he is actually trying to engage. Something you wouldn’t know how to do if it hit you between the eyes. Hence the questions and the links.
Wrote this an hour ago and thought I’d send it off. That is the problem when you have about a hundred tabs open. My bad!
We are nitpicking about 1.6 seconds here in the collapse of a 47 floor steel framed building for fucks sake I it had taken 1.5 hours it would still be impossible!
NIST stated it did not investigate for explosives because there was no proof of explosives. WTF?
First of all there was ample recorded testimony and video material showing clearly that explosive events took place BEFORE the planes hit the buildings and there is recorded testimony of explosive events in WTC 7 before the buildings came down and they did not investigate because they did not find evidence?????
This is what Eric Lawyer (also speaking on the AE video to come) Fire fighters for 911 truth had to say about that.
This is what appeared on Italian MSM about the WTC 7 demolition here the explosions just before the buildings collapse and oh oops, here are the fire fighters saying they knew it was coming down before hand even though this had only happened twice before on the same day!
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-03082011/#comment-360390
reply to PB
if you read The Project for a New American Century it spells out that ‘nothing short of a new Pearl Harbour’ would have been enough of a catlyst to form the required level of hysteria that would allow the implenmentation of a long standing warplan on the Middle East.
The plans of which you may recall were dumped on the desk of the Secretary of Defense within 48 hours of the attacks on the WTC. Full plans, costs, including an exit strategy. All tied up with a nice blood red white and blue ribbon but the reality is there should have been nought on top but a white feather for their cowardice.
I’ve read the PNAC docs. Lot’s of times.
The AQ attacks fit the bill. Which is why they used it. Doesn’t explain why they would take he risk of getting involved. And it sure as hell doesn’t explain why their propaganda before the event wasn’t helping them. If they had known exactly what was going to happen, they would have been laying the ground about ties between AQ and Iraq and building up the threat AQ posed. Instead, they were ignoring them.
..and it was such a huge risk and highly probable that they would have got found out.
Tomorrow, tired now, want to make sense when I write response.