Update on the Mataraunga Maaori component in first year uni paper from an anecdotal perspective.
Was reinforced in test that concepts and understanding had to relate only to lecturer's definitions, personal knowledge or alternate definitions would be marked as wrong.
Eg. What is the definition of whanau?
The only 'right' answer, is your direct ancestors. Any other definition – no marks.
Also, MM questions twice the points for no discernible reason.
This approach is inviting resistance and pushback.
I support the intention of mātauranga Māori, but am concerned about the implemention of the project.
To me, this has similar hallmarks to the Equality and Diversity intention, that has been rolled out through our institutions, businesses and government departments.
Employing identified individuals as experts and representatives to provide material and ideas for projects is a starting point. However, what they produce still should be actively scrutinised for appropriateness, quality and any statement of facts should be well-evidenced.
Getting this wrong, not only means that those learning are not actually being delivered good quality material, but it provides space for justified criticism, which unfortunately gives fodder to the underlying racism for some.
My son still won't let me watch the videos, but from a personal point of view, he's dismissive of the value and quality of what was delivered to him – and hundreds of other students – by the mātauranga Māori component of the paper.
That's interesting. I hear it used in such a way in many meetings run by Māori facilitators and taiako. Have you never come across it? Might be a regional use of the word.
The ancestor definition, excludes whangai adoptions and implies a connection to bloodlines going one way, up or down from an individual.
It might be a personal perspective, but whanau for me is more of a weaving concept, pulling and connecting threads from a vast array of 'relatives' and familial connections. It's probably my personal attachment to this definition, that makes me reluctant to relinquish it.
It's not the definition that concerns me, direct ancestors is accurate in and of itself. It is the insistence that only that definition will be deemed to be correct. I love the other aspects of whanau, and if those attending this class believe there is only one 'correct' answer, they may lose a wider understanding when meeting the word in future.
That's the concept of whanau that I particularly love, where it encompasses ‘family’ in a broader concept than standard nuclear family relationships. Family in the 'heart' sense rather than the 'genetic' sense.
Seems like an unnecessarily narrow and exclusive definition.
I agree, that if this education is so prescriptive (just memorize the list of concepts and definitions), it's going to accomplish little in enculturating MM in the students – and is very likely to build resentment and push-back.
It seems the complete reversal of the te ao Maori philosophy.
When seeking the essential meaning of Te Tiriti o Waitangi, we have to defer to the indigenous version. Perhaps here we need to do the same.
We all have our reckons, but it's not really our business, is it, how words outside of English are defined. In any case, the "lecturer" might just as well be planning to expand upon their definition of "whanau" as the course proceeds. Molly's example seems very tenuous to me.
Loanwords, or borrowings, are words which are adopted into a native language from a different source language. Such borrowings have shaped the English language almost from its beginnings, as words were adopted from the classical languages as well as from successive wave of invasions (e.g. Vikings, Normans). Even by the 16th Century, long before the British Empire extended its capacious reach around the world, English had already adopted words from an estimated 50 other languages, and the vast majority of English words today are actually foreign borrowings of one sort or another.
Some may consider it culturally insensitive to ascribe new meanings to words taken/adopted from Aotearoa NZ's first language, but if history is any teacher then 'resisting the drift' will be mostly futile. Can we change?
The drift of word meanings over time often arises, often but not always due to catachresis (the misuse, either deliberate or accidental, of words). By some estimates, over half of all words adopted into English from Latin have changed their meaning in some way over time, often drastically. For example, smart originally meant sharp, cutting or painful; handsome merely meant easily-handled (and was generally derogatory); bully originally meant darling or sweetheart; sad meant full, satiated or satisfied; and insult meant to boast, brag or triumph in an insolent way. A more modern example is the changing meaning of gay from merry to homosexual (and, in some circles in more recent years, to stupid or bad).
Being dogmatic about traditional usage, or meaning, is one way of ensuring Māori becomes a dead language.
Many English words have been adopted to Māori beginning from the First European visiters. To insist only on traditional usage we would have to remove them also.
Anyway the Tamariki are voting with their feet, using Māori words, in ways and situations that are definitely not traditional.
The French tried to keep their language pristine. It didn't work.
Some of the dogmatism is just ignorance. Kids at a High school I was teaching in, kept correcting my pronunciation. One of the old Māori Teachers told them, "don't be so bloody cheeky, he is from Taranaki". She even knew which part of Taranaki, from my accent in Māori. The "correct" Māori pronunciation followed is very often Ngapuhi, which annoys the hell out of Ngāi Tahu and others.
The Te Reo course I did, was very interesting when it focused on the regional differences and dialects. I wish I could develop the same ear for regional differences in Te Reo, as easily as I can distinguish from regional differences in the UK. It's a sorry acknowledgement of my insufficient Te Reo that I have no idea.
Due to my recent foray into researching porn, I've left investigating the NZ curriculum regarding mātauranga Māori, and Sexuality and Relationship investigation.
The NCEA, and TKI websites are a pain to navigate as a novice, and material is linked to from multiple sites and pages.
Here is one such link to the Secondary Curriculum for science, where you can download a fairly short pdf on concepts.
Unfortunately, this is not the page where I found word 'whakapapa' used interchangeably with the concept of evolution. If I come across it again, I'll post.
Whakapapa for me holds such significance, in te ao Māori, that I resist the expansion of the word to encompass a concept that was not part of te ao Māori knowledge.
Another example that is shown on the CB Learning Matrix_1.pdf is for 'mauri' to refer to energy bonds at atomic levels.
"recognise that mauri is present in all matter which exists as particles held together by attractive forces"
My understanding of this word was 'life-force', a recognition of organic life-forms and/or sentience ascribed to non-organic forms. ie. mountains, rivers etc.
I would prefer to see new Māori words for concepts that were not part of mātauranga Māori but utilise existing Te Reo to create.
I'm uncomfortable with the dilution of existing language to shoehorn new concepts in. From my perspective, it demeans the original kupu, and also muddies the scientific concept.
"I'm uncomfortable with the dilution of existing language to shoehorn new concepts in. From my perspective, it demeans the original kupu, and also muddies the scientific concept.
eg. Whakapapa for evolution."
and at the same time argue for that "whanau" is "used informally to refer to a group gathered for some purpose, ie. interests. Our rugby whanau."
Seems you're supporting both points of view?
Contradicting your original objection?
You also wrote:
“I do enjoy the broader application of this particular word. It’s just one of those kupu that resonates, hopefully for all NZers.”
Is that so long as the word is “whanau” and not “whakapapa”?
The issue here is not shortening or expanding words, Robert.
It is about making sure the intent of mātauranga Māori is achieved.
My concern with my son's course, is that it seems inclined to not inspire, or encourage, and may actually cause students to resist further learning because of the content and delivery.
My concern with the curriculum matrix, is that it uses significant Māori kupu and concepts, and shoehorns in a new definition that both dilutes the original meaning, and muddies the scientific concept. Once again, inviting pushback and resistance to further learning.
In te reo Māori words frequently mean more than one thing depending on context. I find it very odd that you've swung from complaining about a too narrow a definition of whānau, to getting upset that mauri (which is a bit broader than just lifeforce anyway – it is the motivating and identifying energy) can be applied to nuclear forces or that whakapapa (which is much broader than just genealogy and encompasses all living things and geographical landmarks as ancestors in relation to the speaker) should be applied to evolution.
You seem to want your cake and to eat it too.
kiaora e te whānau is a common expression used with all sorts of groups that aren't related ancestrally.
Hard to comment on the story told because it's third hand anecdote, but on the face of it it seems an odd definition to me. It's also possible there was context that makes sense of it.
Whanau as used by Māori speakers today, from both personal observation and reading can include groups of friends, family both immediate or distant, a school community, a club.
Not just or even for kāwai, roots/ ancestors
May not have been past usage. But Māori like all languages evolves and adopts.
My non-Māori aunt didn’t Whakapapa to the Iwi, but she was certainly Whanau!
My option is to do an OIA for the videos of the lectures, and the written material.
Although my son has access, he is a rule follower. All online material has a statement that it is not to be shared with those not enrolled, and so he doesn't.
I understand that my perspective of his perspective is not an accurate rendering. Part of the reason I write this, is just to invite others to put forward their experiences. Or if they are in positions to access or scrutinise material, to do so.
If I can, I can find out the course code and stream. And perhaps, put in a request for that material but I'll wait till my son has completed this semester.
(ATM, still negotiating being in the same room while he re-watches. Two problems: he considers that dishonest, and he doesn’t want to watch it again.)
I took it to mean that it only related to people of direct ancestry, rather than a replacement for tupuna. More a definition that related to shared blood links, as it were.
Once again, I acknowledge that this is my interpretation, of his interpretation being offered to you to interpret.
Not a sound basis for definitive analysis. More a check diagnostics light.
"The only 'right' answer, is your direct ancestors."
That's very imprecise and perhaps causing confusion here.
Was "your direct ancestors" in fact the answer given, an interpretation of the answer given, or what?
If we are to make judgements based on this snippet (is it copied and pasted, is it second-hand, over-heard ? etc.) we are bound to get the wrong end of te rakau, imo.
As I said, it might be. But both during lectures, and before the test they were reminded that only the material and definitions that were taught during the course were going to be considered the 'correct' answers when it came to assessment.
(I'm really resisting the temptation to log on to my son's computer, and "assess" his interpretation of what is going on. But perhaps, someone reading this also has access to the course materials, and can provide direct experience.)
The lecturer did touch on the fact that others may have different definitions, tikanga etc, but for the purposes of assessment only those which had been delivered were accepted.
For the course I did on Tikanga Māori, the opposite was encouraged. As long as you referenced the origin of your understanding, and evidenced it, the contribution was accepted as valid. A really good exploratory assignment, especially when sharing with other students.
(My other cynical thought, is that for a generalised paper, this edict makes it easy to mark. That it all may boil down to a prosaic attitude of reducing marking time, for a lecturer that has more specific and labour-intensive courses to deliver.)
"But both during lectures, and before the test they were reminded that only the material and definitions that were taught during the course were going to be considered the 'correct' answers when it came to assessment."
Seems then, they were quite specific and gave fair direction and warning.
And especially unusual in teaching Te Reo or Maturanga Maori.
All of the (many) seminars, courses and workshops I've engaged in have been a very collaborative learning style. Where the knowledge of the course leader (being generously shared with the participants) is acknowledged and valued; but so is the knowledge that different participants bring to the discussion. I've been in a workshop where there was a long discussion about the different usage of a term on one marae in the FN (participant) and another in the SI (course leader) – very good-humored, and clearly a source of amusement to both of them; and another which was specifically related to an upcoming powhiri, where the leader specifically referred to the way things were done on this marae, rather than being necessarily correct for other marae.
This 'fount of all knowledge' style seems very foreign to the whole Matauranga Maori philosophy.
The direction and following assessment is not what concerns me, Robert.
If the intention is to both introduce and instill encouragement for further learning of Te Ao Māori in students – the way this has been delivered might actually do the opposite.
I'm concerned about the resulting attitude of the students, rather than my son's mark.
Are any students there going to be inspired to look further into the perspectives of Māori?
The other less desired prospect is that they may also react negatively to future contact with te Ao Māori if they come away with a sense that it is not relevant or quality information.
'Fair' as in easy to mark and to learn. Yep.
Useful, in actually inculcating MM into the learning (the stated aim)? I'd say fairly useless.
And, absolutely inviting push-back. I'd say that most of the Engineering students (I think that's the background here) are likely to simply learn for the exam, then promptly forget it. Just another set of useless 'facts'
A largely wasted exercise.
And especially useless for anyone who has had exposure to MM through other avenues (e.g. kohanga reo, kura or marae) – where the learning (as presented here) sounds very different to what they would have learned in a te ao Maori perspective.
I tend to agree with Robert here. If the intention is to instill a broad brush overview of the Maori world then there is very little room for arguing a different view. The value of such a course is that it will do just this – cover concepts of language, iwi, etc tribal links, broad strokes world view and how it is linked.
One of the best bits of advice that I was told early on was to make sure you revise for exams on what has been taught, as the examiner is seeking to ensure that you have got this. This is different from you may have learned through your own explorations during the course, or prior knowledge accumulated.
So harking back to the word 'whanau' then if the course has taught this and the question gives no scope for exploring how it is used in contexts then the definition they are looking for is direct family.
Getting a law degree way way back at some institutions required Latin, or a foreign language. In my years we had some topics loosely covered by the phrase Law In Society. The idea was to give a background, an at ease look at the wider community we would be working in.
Over the years in the PS we were required to attend courses on Maori worldview/Maori language. For me this just built on classes at my secondary school and living in a mainly Maori township where the teachers routinely taught this. Now some PS agencies especially those in Treaty sensitive areas have an expectation or think highly of staff who have attended immersion courses.
I cannot imagine that a world going forward for an engineer would not cover the Maori world view. If you look at the story of how Ngati Tuhoe approached the building of Te Kura Whare then you will note the lengths that people working on the design etc of the building would have had to go to.
Input of a Maori aspect from the start, to put it bluntly is expected in most (all?) public building and this will only increase as the years go by. In the spirit of not not running before you can walk the course that your son is taking will be the bare minimum. Building on a bare but common minimum will set him up to explore in greater depth later.
From my personal viewpoint I would be careful of trying to trample over what might be a very carefully designed course that will give information and confidence without setting up people to argue the toss (I've seen it happen) about Treaty claims, bootstraps pulling…….etc.
If I was your son I would happily keep what I have learned, ie valuable concepts, from this course in my back pocket and reflect on them. If I had deviated along the way to have thoughts about pedagogy I would put that to one side.
Maori is used much more frequently now and if he can see that whanau has already gone on to be used as an encompassing way to describe club members then he can see language and culture at work.
Thoughtful and comprehensive response there, Shanreagh.
I'm mindful that this section of the engineering course focused on matauranga Maori, not te reo Maori per se.
The fact though, that the two "threads" are so intertwined is a crucial one and worthy of further exploration.
In my sphere of engagement, local government through regional council, I observe the wrangling over matauranga and reo with the central focus on te mana o te wai and hauora; highly-charged points of both misunderstanding and breakthrough.
I'm mindful that this section of the engineering course focused on matauranga Maori, not te reo Maori per se.
Yes I realise that and for me that gives even more relevance to the idea of reflecting back what a student has been taught. So the student gives their knowledge back to the tutor. In giving back this knowledge to the tutor then the tutor is also able to learn – to work out where they may have to apply a different emphasis for their learners in the future. I think a tutor would be disappointed in themselves if students got themselves tangled up in extensions to meanings so much so that the original meaning was lost.
We might be able to mount an argument as a new learner of a language. though for me it is more about idiom, tenses et and my questioning is about what I can see as inconsistencies. To mount an argument on the cultural aspects on the strength of the work of a semester or two would be fraught I would have thought. I would be very, very wary that this gave me any great insight into the culture and lived in experience behind the words. For instance even though I speak German and French I would be very skeptical that this gave me standing to debate, say, the German word das Volk. It is so tied up with other historical and cultural concepts.
The best outcome for a course of this type is to build an awareness of different worlds/drivers. If it has a result down the track of ensuring an engineer responds to a brief that looks as though it may involve Te Ao by saying I'll be sure to get specialist input on this, or makes the same engineer mindful and respectful of Te Ao Maori, even down to being able to introduce themselves or knowledge of hapu/iwi structures, creation story etc then the course will have been successful. Humility and knowing what you don't know, when this is important is a key value too.
The engineers involved in the Ngati Tuhoe house would have been far beyond this prelim knowledge but they, and the clients both, would have been expecting that anyone who came with input would be aware of it.
He also took pains to mention, that he could be wrong. So, as I said, it may be hearsay + hearsay = completely wrong end of the stick.
Because of Covid restrictions, all the lectures were recorded and put online.
Also, it could just be that this is a generalised course and not a good example. I posted below:
(My other cynical thought, is that for a generalised paper, this edict makes it easy to mark. That it all may boil down to a prosaic attitude of reducing marking time, for a lecturer that has more specific and labour-intensive courses to deliver.)
Thermodynamics was one of the subjects I enjoyed the most and attained an A+ in at each level. So most of this looks like a very recognisable introduction:
Course Overview
ENGGEN 140 (Energy & Society) is a fundamental course for first year engineering students. It introduces important concepts of thermodynamics – the science of the relationship between heat, work, temperature, and energy. ENGGEN 140 applies these concepts to a range of renewable energy systems and biomedical applications. Furthermore, ENGGEN 140 discusses energy storage systems in the form of battery technologies and biofuels.
As a steppingstone in the pathway to a professional engineering degree in New Zealand, ENGGEN 140 interlinks fundamental engineering concepts with learning about engineering ethics, decision-making processes, Te Ao Māori and the Māori economy. The role of creativity in developing solutions is also explored within the course.
ENGGEN 140 is an introduction to solving complex engineering problems related to the energy sector while considering effects on communities and the environment.
But in my honest view introducing cultural concepts into this course feels contrived. The laws of the universe owe nothing to human social habits and outlooks:
Yeah – I recall one paper we did that was a series of about 3 or 4 invited lecturers from other depts like Philosophy, Anthro and Law. Quite interesting but very relaxed. So there is nothing terribly new about trying to inject a little couth into first year Engineering students.
One line the Philosophy guy came up with is that the subject was often considered so divorced from real life, that meeting your Philosophy tutor in a pub was like meeting your mother in a massage parlour. Mutually embarrassing.
Like all languages there are often synomyms for similar meanings. Whanau strictly means your immediate living relatives, but like the English word family, it can be used flexibly. For example in English we might say 'the family of humanity' or a 'family of Pacific cultures'. On the other hand there are pedants in every culture.
As for ancestors – the more accurate word I think is whakapapa. IIRC.
When Stuart Nash left his weekly radio slot with Mikey and Mark Mitchell, I was hoping Nash would be replaced with Kiri Allan. Allan seems to me to be a straight up sheila with brains. However, we got Megan Woods. And I must say after a couple of mediocre sessions, she has found her stride. She cleaned Mitchell up in their last debate.
Nice one Robo. National's tactic to attack Labour on an issue they are strong on and National were useless on seems a bit daft…but that's Chris Bishop for you.
"Do you think those that are responsible for local drinking, waste and provision of storm water services should be directly accountable to voters"
Now faced with such a question, who would think too carefully about just what "directly' meant, or whether "those responsible" are local government, regional Councils, or the New Zealand Government? Not surprisingly, a large majority of people answering the question wanted those responsible (whoever they are) to also be accountable – most readers of The Standard may have answered the question that way. Our NZ Govt has responsibility for setting standards and seeing them met – and we saw the last National (party) government set low standards, then deliberately interfere with Environment Canterbury to prevent enforcement, leading to now compromised aquifer supply and problems for towns and cities. Now it could be argued that the Taxpayers union are reprehensible for such a poorly worded survey, and for their poor judgement in the interpretation they placed on the results, and David Farrar has allowed that report to carry the Curia Logo. Has Farrar failed to meet minimum professional polling standards by such a misleading question and such a misleading report on the results?
I'd have thought that the question encompassed all of the possibilities of 'directly accountable' (government, regional government, local government) – that you've suggested.
What it doesn't encompass is a multi-layer appointed bureaucracy and co-governance by iwi (the governance model proposed under 3 waters)
Neither of which are accountable to voters at all. And I have yet to see this meaningfully addressed by Mahuta, or anyone else involved in 3 waters.
I suspect that those completing the survey absolutely understood the question, and answered accordingly.
You may not like the answer. But I suspect that Labour may be about to find out just how much Kiwis don't like this model of governance.
But do we have any level of accountability to voters or consumers with our electricity or telecommunications services? Or even roading, which is mostly controlled by Waka Kotahi, a government agency.
Democratic control of our water services by local government politicians hasn't really served us that well, and the right's alternatives of contracting and privatisation are unlikely to do any better.
I welcome the balance that Maori representaion on the boards of the 3 Waters entities will bring. In Otago Ngāi Tahu have had a governance role over our lakes, waterways and landscape for 20 years and the world hasn't ended. Many would say that it's a much better world, once Ngāi Tahu became involved Councils actually started doing something about their sewage discharges into waterways. Still a long way to go but there's been a change in direction. The balance between Te Ao Māori and Pakeha dominion will put our society in a more sustainable place into our future.
It will provide a constructive conflict in a similar way to the USA's constitution has various governance groups complementing each other, often in conflict, to provide a stable and constructive governance.
I welcome iwi involvement, and think there are lots of benefits for everyone from co-governance. I'm considerably less convinced that bods in Chch can make good decisions about small towns in Southland or Otago.
"Or even roading, which is mostly controlled by Waka Kotahi, a government agency."
Yes, we do. If it's controlled by the government, we get to vote on the policies every 3 years. Whereas AT – an unelected roading and transport bureaucracy in Auckland, which is apparently entirely uncontrolled by the council (in practice) – appears to have no redress from voters, whatsoever. Just a never-ending stream of wasteful projects, and apparently no money to deal with basic repair work.
You have a choice with power or telecoms – if you don't like the policies (or ethics) of one of the companies, you can pick up your account and vote with your wallet – at any time.
Not really an option with water….
Any time someone says 'democtratic control ….. hasn't served us well' – a shiver runs up my spine. That is *exactly* how autocracies begin…. always with the 'best' of intentions. But "all power has a tendency to corrupt, and absolute power has the tendency to corrupt absolutely".
Anyone who truly believes that the right wants to privatize and sell off water – should be fighting this legislation tooth and nail. It's virtually impossible to sell off a fragmented asset (as water currently is), but much, much easier to sell off one which has been nicely packaged into a single organization. Personally, I don't believe that the right has any such intention – but if you do, then this is the riskiest legislation that you could possibly support. At some point, a right government *will* be elected…
Ngai Tahu have nicely enriched their tribal elite (as have Tainui) – I've yet to see any sustainable benefit to the rest of NZ (or, indeed to the rest of Maori – especially the urban Maori who have some of the worst social outcomes).
Councils across the whole of NZ have been 'doing something' about discharges of sewerage – it's difficult to claim that it's entirely due to iwi influence. And Ngai Tahu, at least, are substantial dairy farmers – I'm sure that's true of other iwi in other regions as well.
The operation of 3 Waters is generally contracted out to either the TA's CCO, another TA's CCO, or a completely private organisation like Fulton Hogan, Downer or Veolia. The last two groups have quite a bit of power over the contracting TA, I've heard the relationship described as akin to farming.
Nact aligned parties have been at the forefront of this contracting, so it’s definitely the way they want things. it’s done one little bite at a time and then merged into larger and larger organisations that gradually creep into multinational corporates.
The proposed reforms will put a few controls over this. It'll be mostly the same organisations / people doing the work but the scale will hopefully bring a lot of functions back in-house and curb the farming.
Very good for retirement jobs for ex National MP' s.
The fact of the creeping privatisation that has been happening with public assets, including those mostly under the RADAR by council's, is ignored by 3 waters opponents. Obviously because they are happy for it to continue.
are you saying 'it's already happeing, so what's the problem?"
If not, please point to the parts of the 3 Waters plan that are specifically designed to prevent privatisation.
My understanding is that councils either do work themselves, contract out to private orgs, or set up organisations that are designed to function like private companies. If National wanted to sell those off, how would it do it currently, given central government doesn't have control of councils and there are still mechanisms for communities to object?
We were one election away from the whole lot being sold off in Auckland.
Banks stated intention if he got in.
Makes it much harder to keep privatisation out of public view if it cannot be done, bit by bit.
It should be stated that part of three waters is bringing more expertise into managing contracting out, which is a part of creeping privatisation of asset management we should oppose. But if it is happening it needs a much greater degree of competent oversight.
Examples are Air NZ and other privatisations which didn't go unnoticed. Note however that National cared so much about democracy that they went ahead anyway. Not without public opposition, though.
Hence labour currently trying to entrench anti -privatisation provisions. The part of the Three Waters bill that opposes privatisation. National, who have suddenly become concerned about public ownership, sic. are opposing them.
Anyone who truly believes that the right wants to privatize and sell off water – should be fighting this legislation tooth and nail. It's virtually impossible to sell off a fragmented asset (as water currently is), but much, much easier to sell off one which has been nicely packaged into a single organization.
I've seen two examples of privatisation of the 3 Waters management in Queenstown, along with other QLDC functions. The first with with contracting to the old works management, who then sold out to another TA's contracting arm was a disaster, the second to a multi national organisation really hasn't lived up to it's promises and may reveal a few unpleasant surprises under the carpet once it's over. QLDC initially wasn't supportive of the 3 Waters proposal, now they are. QLDC have seen the alternatives and see 3 Waters as the preferred option. The real opportunities for privatisation are the small, failing, TA's that don't have an alternative, QLDC was very much in that situation and it looked like a good idea at the time.
"Ngai Tahu have nicely enriched their tribal elite"
Well if you call Ngāi Tahu's engaged community a 'tribal elite' you'd be right. I'm seeing an organisation that going from strength to strength growing and supporting it's members and the surrounding community and environment. I wish I had the whakapapa to be fully engaged.
If the left properly understood the iwi entities as essentially nothing more than family owned private corporations with a closed shareholding – then Three Waters would be seen in a quite different light.
Don't think corporation is quite the right description. While the iwi entities are very commercial, there is an equal benevolent focus, often benefiting the wider community.
Could the same be said for Fonterra, Farmlands or Gloriavale? All similarly closed 'corporations'
Wishing those "iwi entities" well – both ‘sides’ can teach us all a thing or two.
Indigenous history, culture and values as investment philosophy: lessons from the New Zealand Māori [3 March 2022]
MAHI [Māori Asset Holding Institutions] have evolved over the last 30 years as the investment and commercial arms of iwi (tribal) organizations, in New Zealand. They seek to grow and sustain the financial and natural resources they have and continue to receive through the Treaty settlement process with the Government for redress of historical grievances against Māori, the indigenous people.
…
Iwi have indeed adopted the principles and language of traditional Western investment strategies, but a shift in the investment space towards more sustainable investment practices provides an opportunity for iwi to assert a more indigenous approach which is grounded in issues of sustainability and tribal wellbeing.
Who is promoting this "tad presumptious [sic]" idea?
Imho that idea is almost as presumptuous as the idea that Māori culture has nothing to offer non-Māori when it comes to ethical investment/investiment and sustainability.
RL, it's hilariously hypocritical that all this 'concern' is being whipped up at the slightest hint of Māori making a bit of 'unearned' profit, when NZ and the rest of the world is awash with unearned profit as it is. Little more than fearmongering, imho.
Now if only there was a mechanism to distribute a slightly larger proportion of the existing unearned profit more equitably…
As for your presumptuous question, it's a non sequitur, don't you think? But, for the record (again), I consider myself a bit of a 'lefty' and yet I can't make head nor tail of it.
One more try: who (apart from you) is promoting "the idea that only Maori know how to advocate for ethical investiment and sustainability"?
Well, open to anyone with a bit of cash to spare – and here we are.
NZ’s perverse ethnic wealth gap[27 July 2020]
Pete McKenzie traces Aotearoa's wide – and worsening – wealth gap between ethnic groups back to colonial land confiscation
“We have an opportunity to ask whether the system is geared up to produce equitable wealth distribution between Māori and non-Māori. If these disparities are increasing, then the answer is no, it’s not. There’s something wrong with the system.”
Perhaps each ‘side’ can teach us all a thing or two.
Had you noticed the dates in the article you linked? The point at which EY's profits skyrocketed was 2017 – virtually doubling every year until 2020 – god knows what they are now.
Yes I had noticed that the no. 1 health priority for Andrew Little is apparently reorganizing the Health administration infrastructure.
Wouldn't be mine.
Still no explanation why contractor costs by DHBs were controlled under National and exploded under Labour.
Hint, the DHB governance model didn't change.
Also the DHBs were established under the 5th Labour Government (Helen Clark) – I wouldn't characterize that as a more right wing government – though perhaps you would.
If any organisation is created to look after 3 waters, it will still be ultimately accountable to the New Zealand Government – and my understanding of 3 waters is that it is intended to be directly accountable, but that is not yet clear. You are however being suitably cautious about the possibility of a lack of accountability – as I understand it the way in which some organisations in Auckland were created makes them largely unaccountable to the Auckland City Council, even though they are called Council Controlled Organisations – perhaps there should have been more consultation before that was forced on Auckland, but thankfully it seems there will be considerable consultation, and perhaps changes from both current proposals or at least current perceptions from some who are not quite aware of what they think they are opposing. Co-governance has of course been used before – Chris Finlayson speaks highly of it and apparently used it on a number of occasions. Was he and the government he was part of wrong?
I look forward to Mahuta explaining in plain language the exact checks and balances which will enable Government to control the 3 waters bureaucracy.
She has yet to do so.
And, quite frankly, with co-governance, I don't see how it would be possible, in any case.
Consultation over 3 waters has become a dirty word – with the abundant evidence that irrevocable decision are made, before the sham of consultation is carried out. I refer here to Mahuta telling outright lies to Councils that they could opt out, when she knew that Cabinet had already decided that would not be an option.
There's a huge trust deficit that the government has to overcome.
Bit hard to have a decent consultation and discussion, when any policy to try and fix the massive damage done by the right wing over the years, is greeted by a storm of lies and scare mongering bullshit.
Which you are blindly repeating.
Where were you when the Minister of Health in the National Government pushed to privatise sectors of the health system, to retire to a job with one of those private companies? You didn't give a stuff. But you are happy to repeat unsubstantiated rumours about "corruption behind three waters".
I have concerns about repeating the private sector Governance structures, which have been used for CCO's and SOE's, to distance them from democratic control. Deliberately so when the ACTiods set them up. Shows their real attitude to democracy.
However any genuine concerns and suggestions for improvement, have been lost in the bullshit.
is greeted by a storm of lies and scare mongering bullshit.
Which you are blindly repeating.
Look, if you believe that, this has all been laid out – in crystal clear language with appropriate checks and balances, and government control specifically legislated for – then please link to it.
ATM – what I'm seeing is simply a 'trust us, we know what we're doing' message from Mahuta. And, that is what you are blindly repeating.
Those of us who are sceptical of 3 waters, are *not* reassured by this. And the scepticism is hardening into opposition.
The best way to convince people is to explain: exactly how it will work, and to answer the 'what if' concerns with information about how that contingency is provided for.
It doesn't matter if you think it's 'bullshit' – explain to people exactly how that concern will be mitigated.
What, like the money wasted on a taxpayer-funded propaganda campaign (which absolutely failed, adding insult to injury).
An actual information campaign to give people answers to the inevitable questions, would have been a much better use of the money (and much less liable to being attacked).
How do you alleviate "concerns" that are basically scare mongering?
Like the sudden “concern” by the right wing about privatisation. Something they have been quietly proceeding with in council’s for decades.
Concerns such as the ones I have, are buried under a storm of "concerns" most of which are unrelated to the need to deal with under-investment and council failures with 3 waters, such as accusations of nepotism and unsubstantiated gossip about when descissions were made.
50% iwi. Government have no control over iwi, or who they choose to appoint – (and nor should they) – however, it can't be possible for the Government to control the 3 waters bureaucracy in that scenario.
RRGs who appoint the board and set the overall direction will be 50% iwi.
No requirement for the board to consist of any elected representatives (and it seems unlikely that they would – since Manuta appears to believe that they will be appointed on the basis of professional skills and competency)
You have a RRG which is in fundamental disagreement over the direction water should go in (e.g. prioritization of urban/rural infrastructure spend; differential water charges for different communities; infrastructure investment over ecological concerns)
A board member which has lost confidence of a significant % of the RRG, but is still supported by a block vote (either iwi or council)?
RRG persist in appointing a board member who is unable to work effectively with the rest of the board, or who has a fundamental conflict of interest? Or does *not* have professional skills or competency?
Board appears to be operating independently of the (notional) controlling body. What are the recall/reappointment procedures?
Government wants to establish a broad water policy – but iwi/council RRG disagree? (Does the Government just dismiss the board and take over a la Tauranga Commissioners?
A city or region is deeply unhappy with the water outcome in their area – what redress do they have? (even if they vote out 'their' representative on the RRG, this won't shift the voting balance in the group)
I'm not really interested in the statement that any of the above 'can't happen'. It might be impossible to envisage now, but over time?
We've certainly seen both Councils and Iwi have failures of leadership. I decline to believe that there is something magic about water management which would prevent this from ever happening.
I'd certainly prefer to know the methodology for dealing with the outcomes of these scenarios in advance.
Would all of you be as enthusiastic if this was being proposed by a National/Act government?
If you believe that iwi have failure over leadership, why are you so keen to give them control over water?
We can vote out poorly performing local government representatives. Neither we (nor the iwi themselves) have any mechanism to vote out poorly performing iwi leadership.
Councils that have failures of leadership can be replaced in a democratic society.That is the remedy against maladministration.
In the forthcoming local elections,there is a high probability that many will be removed with expedient demise,Mostly for incompetence and the failure that they have a duty of care for their locality (read fiscal responsibilty)
The high levels of debt being racked up by the incumbents are unsustainable.
3 Waters cost are over 1.5 billion without any forecast in efficiency, and only for the bureaucracy, and is all being funded on overseas debt.(treasury notes the high level of risk in the IT alone)
Any evidence for this? In any of the comments I've made on this or any other topic?
Or is it just a baseless slur, because you're unable to actually answer any of my arguments.
For reference, I think this is bad legislation from a democratic perspective, regardless of which party proposed it. I don’t believe that watering-down democracy for what seems like ‘good reasons’ is ever a good solution.
National and Act have announced that they would repeal 3 waters if elected. Why should they agree to entrench something they're planning on repealing?
“Evdence”. Parroting the right wing attack scare mongering.
I have been answering your arguments.
Why wouldn't NACT allow entrenching anti-privatisation provisions, if they were really against privatisation as they now claim? In case the bill gets passed. That doesn’t affect whether they retain or remove the bill.
Of course we all know that National approves of the creeping privatisation of council infrastructure and contracting out. Which is why they really oppose three waters.
Now. It would be good if we could have a sensible discussion about what form Governance of 3 waters would be. Duplicating the SOE or DHB model will be a serious mistake in my opinion, Without the scare mongering and fear of "Brown control".
“Evdence”. Parroting the right wing attack scare mongering.
I have been answering your arguments.
Haven't parroted a single thing. If the left wing base assumption is that everyone who has concerns over this legislation has been captured by the right wing, then it's not surprising that concern is hardening into opposition.
Also, you haven't answered a single argument – just attacked me, and blindly defended Mahuta.
When you characterize any concern as "scaremongering", then it's not surprising that you can't engage effectively
I've provided legitimate questions and concerns and linked to actual reported evidence.
Zip from you.
Apart from baseless assertions about what National will do in the future (no link to actual announced policy – clearly you're a thought reader), and claims that because National privatized in the past, they're automatically going to do so in the future (the 4th Labour government's track record in this area is apparently not important to you).
There is a lot of consultation to go, and some issues may well change, but the objective of meeting water standards is unlikely to change. Consultation is desirable, and that happens more easily when it is clear the the objectives and obligations on government will not be walked away from, but consultation is often assisted by clear proposals. I do not agree that consultation has become a dirty word – there are a lot of other dirty words being spoken by those who see their job as blind opposition regardless of proposals. Consultation can also be informal – it is not always carried as in a public court trial, and positions can change – at least until legislation is passed.
As for the goal, i is easy to see examples of where cooperation and yes co-governance have worked. Look at the Wanganui River, which will never be totally clear due to the ground is passes through, but which now has secure minimum water flows that avoid many previous problems, and in addition we are able to use some water to generate electricity. Compare that to the situation in Canterbury where we now have a polluted water supply for a whole region, with health impairments for many and increased costs of water treatment for others – all due to arrogant dismissal and overriding of difficult decisions where the community was divided, but should have been enabled to make better decisions themselves than those forced on them. Look at the riber through Palmerston North, which despite some efforts in recent years, continues to be a disgrace – not swimmable for much of its length due to pollution from farming, housing developments and industry. Co-governance would have helped in enabling honesty in reporting what was happening, better knowledge of the way some local politicians funded campaigns by trading zoning agreements for funding, None of us a perfect, but we can influence others by expressing our opinions, and accepting that sometimes agreement will go through a number of stages as a result – small hurdles met with flexibility while keeping end goals in view may signal honest debate rather than a sham of consultation.
Cameron Luxton – 7.5% (which those of us who want to comment on politics would be grateful for: having Luxton, Luxton and Luxon in parliament – all for different parties, would be a bit much!)
Party vote (which isn't relevant in this instance) mirrors those results
Up to 1/3 either didn't know or wouldn't say (not uncommon – many people are reluctant to tell pollsters – and many of those won't vote, either) – the 'don't knows' rarely change the polling results substantially – it only really matters in 'too close to call' races.
Now, I know that not everyone here likes or believes in polling (i.e. thinks that polls don't matter, it's only the final result, which counts).
Setting that aside.
It's not surprising that National are out in front. Tauranga has been a National (or National-Lite aka Winston Peters) stronghold for decades.
But, what Labour should be taking close note of, are Tinetti's results.
Again, it's not surprising that she's dropped back from 38% in 2020. That was the Jacinda bounce – unprecedented, and not likely to ever occur again. But she's dropped to 22% from the 26% she had in 2017. Remember 2017 was against Bridges, a sitting MP, and pretty popular in Tauranga. Now she's standing against a relative unknown. I wouldn't expect her to win, but I would expect that Labour may be concerned over this evident softening of support. While by-elections rarely favour the sitting government, they also usually favour a current MP (albeit a List one) over a newcomer – just through name-recognition.
While the Green party vote is low at 3% – given that they're not standing a candidate in the by-election, I don't think they'll be too worried about this (out-of-sight = out-of-mind for most voters)
The question has been asked several times recently whether Tauranga is a racist city. Apparently in this same poll only 51% of respondents disagreed.
Bluntly, I'd say a lot of Tauranga residents who vote National have a problem with Maori in general, and they certainly have a problem with any form of partnership as described by Te Tiriti. This progressive government's bold plan for redress is not popular with racists.
All those Kiwifruit orchards are built on stolen land but the owners and benefactors can't bring themselves to admit it.
I would far prefer Labour, and specifically Labour Maori, continue the drive for real change and take some hits rather than run scared of the Western BOP elite.
If around 60% of Tauranga consists of wealthy elite (whether pakeha or Maori) – we should be rolling it out as a template for the rest of the country. /sarc/
People, by and large, vote for the policies (and politicians) which they believe will benefit them.
MPs act for the best of all of their constituents – not just the ones who they think voted for them (or the ones which share their ethnicity). Peters, for example, did very, very well for the people of Tauranga while he was their local MP. To describe them as 'useless Maori' is one of the most profoundly racist statements I've read on TS.
You can't simply condemn electorates as racist because they don't (or won't) vote the way you'd like them to. Especially where they have a demonstrated history of voting for candidates regardless of ethnicity. Should we declare the people of Mt Albert racist because they have never elected a Maori MP?
After all, the majority of Maori don't vote for TPM – which would seem to be the party which would advocate best for Maori. Perhaps they're all less racist than you think.
The term, "useless Maori" is not mine, it is Willie Jackson's:
Willie Jackson says Act leader David Seymour is not just a "useless Māori", but is a dangerous politician.
Māori Development Minister Jackson yesterday said the Act leader could claim Māori whakapapa but was a "useless Māori" and a "useless advocate for Māori".
David Seymour of course having the same attributes as both Winston Peters and Simon Bridges with respect to advocating for Maori. Simply, they didn't.
The right and hard right in varying degrees hate the idea the public should support any culture and identity despite NZ's identity heavily relying on Te Ao Maori. It's who we are but ACT's vision of NZ is one of diluted homogeny, a plain South Pacific country indistinguishable from any other western country.
This government recognises the importance of supporting Maori and Maori culture, useless Maori do not.
So, presumably the 18.2% of the Tauranga population who are Maori consist entirely of Uncle Toms?
Can you just not conceive that the majority of people in NZ – even those who live in benighted Tauranga – vote according to their political principles, rather than along racial lines?
Or can you only justify democracy when it aligns with your prejudices.
'There is a shortage of more than 400 officers across all seniority levels nationally.
The shortage is especially pronounced at Mt Eden prison, home mostly to remand prisoners who have been arrested but are yet to face trial or be sentenced.
A source familiar with internal figures said there were 102 vacancies at Mt Eden as of the last week of May.'
Come on down, we'll probably take you especially at Mt Eden
On February 14, 2023 we announced our Rebuttal Update Project. This included an ask for feedback about the added "At a glance" section in the updated basic rebuttal versions. This weekly blog post series highlights this new section of one of the updated basic rebuttal versions and serves as a ...
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Note: As a paid-up Webworm member, I’ve recorded this Webworm as a mini-podcast for you as well. Some of you said you liked this option - so I aim to provide it when I get a chance to record! Read more ...
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Michael Bassett writes – At first reading, a front-page story in the New Zealand Herald on 13 March was bizarre. A group of severely intellectually limited teenagers, with little understanding of the law, have been pleading to the Justice Select Committee not to pass a bill dealing with ram ...
How much political capital is Christopher Luxon willing to burn through in order to deliver his $2.9 billion gift to landlords? Evidently, Luxon is: (a) unable to cost the policy accurately. As Anna Burns-Francis pointed out to him on Breakfast TV, the original ”rock solid” $2.1 billion cost he was ...
TL;DR: My top 10 news and analysis links this morning include:Today’s must-read:Jonathon Porritt calling bullshit in his own blog post on mainstream climate science as ‘The New Denialism’.Local scoop:The Wellington City Council’s list of proposed changes to the IHP recommendations to be debated later today was leaked this ...
TL;DR:Prime Minister Christopher Luxon said yesterday tenants should be grateful for the reinstatement of interest deductibility because landlords would pass on their lower tax costs in the form of lower rents. That would be true if landlords were regulated monopolies such as Transpower or Auckland Airport1, but they’re not, ...
This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Tom Toro Tom Toro is a cartoonist and author. He has published over 200 cartoons in The New Yorker since 2010. His cartoons appear in Playboy, the Paris Review, the New York Times, American Bystander, and elsewhere. Related: What 10 EV lovers ...
The business section of the NZ Herald is full of opinion. Among the more opinionated of all is the ex-Minister of Transport, ex-Minister of Railways, ex MP for Auckland Central (1975-93, Labour), Wellington Central (1996-99, ACT, then list-2005), ex-leader of the ACT Party, uncle to actor Antonia, the veritable granddaddy ...
Hi,Just quickly — I’m blown away by the stories you’ve shared with me over the last week since I put out the ‘Gary’ podcast, where I told you about the time my friend’s flatmate killed the neighbour.And you keep telling me stories — in the comments section, and in my ...
The first season of Rings of Power was not awful. It was thoroughly underwhelming, yes, and left a lingering sense of disappointment, but it was more expensive mediocrity than catastrophe. I wrote at length about the series as it came out (see the Review section of the blog, and go ...
Buzz from the Beehive Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Brooke van Velden told Auckland Business Chamber members they were the first audience to hear her priorities as a minister in a government committed to cutting red tape and regulations. She brandished her liberalising credentials, saying Flexible labour markets are the ...
Chris Trotter writes – TO UNDERSTAND WHY NEWSHUB FAILED, it is necessary to understand how TVNZ changed. Up until 1989, the state broadcaster had been funded by a broadcasting licence fee, collected from every citizen in possession of a television set, supplemented by a relatively modest (compared ...
Bob Edlin writes – The Māori Party has been busy issuing a mix of warnings and threats as its expresses its opposition to interest deductibility for landlords and the plans of seabed miners. It remains to be seen whether they follow the example of indigenous litigants in Australia, ...
The Government has accepted Labour’s change to the Road User Charge (RUC) discount for hybrid vehicles, meaning there will still be some incentive for people to buy greener vehicles. ...
Kicking the most vulnerable people out of state housing and pushing them towards homelessness will result in a proliferation of poverty and trauma across our most vulnerable communities. ...
Te Pāti Māori co-leader and MP for Waiariki, Rawiri Waititi has penned a letter asking MPs to support his members bill to remove GST from all food. The bill is expected to go through its first reading in parliament this Wednesday. “I’m calling on all political parties to support my ...
This year is about getting real with Kiwis and discussing the tough issues, as the National Government exacerbates inequality and divides New Zealand, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said ...
The Government adding Significant Natural Areas (SNAs) to its already roaring environmental policy bonfire is an assault on the future of wildlife that makes Aotearoa unique. ...
After 12 years of fighting to protect our moana we are finding ourselves back at square one and back at court. Today, the Environmental Protection Agency is sitting in Hawera to reconsider an application from Trans-Tasman Resources to dig up 50 million tonnes of the seabed in South Taranaki. This ...
Minister Shane Jones’ decision to step away from a seabed mining project is evidence of the murky waters surrounding the Government’s fast-track legislation. ...
The growth of Treaty of Waitangi clauses in legislation caused so much worry that a special oversight group was set up by the last government in a bid to get greater coherence in the publicservice on Treaty matters. When ministers first considered the need for tighter oversight in 2021, there ...
The growth of Treaty of Waitangi clauses in legislation caused so much worry that a special oversight group was set up by the last government in a bid to get greater coherence in the publicservice on Treaty matters. When ministers first considered the need for tighter oversight in 2021, there ...
The Coalition Government’s miscalculation saga continues as it has forgotten an eyewatering $90 million gap in its interest deductibility cost figures, say Labour Finance spokesperson Barbara Edmonds and Revenue Spokesperson Deborah Russell. ...
He Pou a Rangi Climate Change Commission has today released advice that says if the Government doesn’t act now New Zealand is at risk of not meeting its climate goals. ...
The Coalition Government has today confirmed it is abandoning first home buyers who are struggling to get ahead, says Labour Finance spokesperson Barbara Edmonds. ...
The New Zealand public voted for a change in direction at the 2023 general election and that is exactly what this coalition government has been delivering in its first 100 days. There was an immediate focus on the economy, easing the cost of living, cracking down on law and order ...
The Government has left the health system as an afterthought, announcing half-baked targets at the last minute of their 100-day plan, says Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall. ...
Kiwis are still waiting for their promised cost of living support after 100 days of a National Government that is taking us backwards, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said today. ...
The National Government has spent its first 100 days stopping, cutting and reversing. They have scrapped stuff for stuff for the sake of it, without putting up any solutions of their own – and it’s hardworking New Zealanders who will pay for it. ...
100 days of National taking NZ backwardsThe National Government has spent its first 100 days stopping, cutting and reversing. They have scrapped stuff for stuff for the sake of it, without putting up any solutions of their own – and it’s hardworking New Zealanders who will pay for it. ...
The Government must commit to funding free and healthy school lunches, as thousands of people sign the petition to keep them, education spokesperson Jan Tinetti says. ...
If the Government was serious about moving families into public housing, they would build more houses so there is actually somewhere for people to go. ...
The free and healthy school lunches programme feeds our kids, helps them to learn, and saves families money – but it is at risk under this Government, education spokesperson Jan Tinetti said. ...
The Government’s proposed changes to Firearms Prohibition Orders (FPO) add almost nothing new and are merely an attempt to distract from its plans to loosen gun laws, police spokesperson Ginny Andersen and justice spokesperson Dr Duncan Webb said. ...
The great Victorian era English politician Lord Macauley stood in the British House of Parliament and said, "The gallery in which the reporters sit has become a fourth estate of the realm".He understood and outlined even way back then, the significant role and influence media have in a democracy. ...
"The Government is moving quickly to realise an additional $46 million in tariff savings in the EU market this season for Kiwi exporters,” Minister for Trade and Agriculture, Todd McClay says. Parliament is set, this week, to complete the final legislative processes required to bring the New Zealand – European ...
New Zealand’s social workers are qualified, experienced, and more representative of the communities they serve, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “I want to acknowledge and applaud New Zealand’s social workers for the hard work they do, providing invaluable support for our most vulnerable. “To coincide with World ...
Cabinet has agreed to a reduced road user charge (RUC) rate for plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs), Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. Owners of PHEVs will be eligible for a reduced rate of $38 per 1,000km once all light electric vehicles (EVs) move into the RUC system from 1 April. ...
Minister of Agriculture and Trade, Todd McClay, says that today’s opening of Riverland Foods manufacturing plant in Christchurch is a great example of how trade access to overseas markets creates jobs in New Zealand. Speaking at the official opening of this state-of-the-art pet food factory the Minister noted that exports ...
Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters met with Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi in Wellington today. “It was a pleasure to host Foreign Minister Wang Yi during his first official visit to New Zealand since 2017. Our discussions were wide-ranging and enabled engagement on many facets of New Zealand’s relationship with China, including trade, ...
Kāinga Ora – Homes & Communities has been instructed to end the Sustaining Tenancies Framework and take stronger measures against persistent antisocial behaviour by tenants, says Housing Minister Chris Bishop. “Earlier today Finance Minister Nicola Willis and I sent an interim Letter of Expectations to the Board of Kāinga Ora. ...
Tēna koutou katoa. Greetings everyone. Thank you to the Auckland Chamber of Commerce and the Honourable Simon Bridges for hosting this address today. I acknowledge the business leaders in this room, the leaders and governors, the employers, the entrepreneurs, the investors, and the wealth creators. The coalition Government shares your ...
Minister Winston Peters completed the final leg of his visit to South and South East Asia in Singapore today, where he focused on enhancing one of New Zealand’s indispensable strategic partnerships. “Singapore is our most important defence partner in South East Asia, our fourth-largest trading partner and a ...
Minister of Internal Affairs and Workplace Relations and Safety, Hon. Brooke van Velden, will travel to the Republic of Korea to represent New Zealand at the Third Summit for Democracy on 18 March. The summit, hosted by the Republic of Korea, was first convened by the United States in 2021, ...
ICNZ Speech 7 March 2024, Auckland Acknowledgements and opening Mōrena, ngā mihi nui. Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Nor Whanganui aho. Good morning, it’s a privilege to be here to open the ICNZ annual conference, thank you to Mark for the Mihi Whakatau My thanks to Tim Grafton for inviting me ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Lead Coordination Minister Judith Collins have expressed their deepest sympathy on the five-year anniversary of the Christchurch terror attacks. “March 15, 2019, was a day when families, communities and the country came together both in sorrow and solidarity,” Mr Luxon says. “Today we pay our respects to the 51 shuhada ...
Speech for Financial Advice NZ Conference 5 March 2024 Acknowledgements and opening Morena, Nga Mihi Nui. Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Nor Whanganui aho. Thanks Nate for your Mihi Whakatau Good morning. It’s a pleasure to formally open your conference this morning. What a lovely day in Wellington, What a great ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters held discussions in Jakarta today about the future of relations between New Zealand and South East Asia’s most populous country. “We are in Jakarta so early in our new government’s term to reflect the huge importance we place on our relationship with Indonesia and South ...
Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters has announced that the Foreign Minister of China, Wang Yi, will visit New Zealand next week. “We look forward to re-engaging with Foreign Minister Wang Yi and discussing the full breadth of the bilateral relationship, which is one of New Zealand’s ...
Transport Minister Simeon Brown has today opened the new Auckland Rail Operations Centre, which will bring together KiwiRail, Auckland Transport, and Auckland One Rail to improve service reliability for Aucklanders. “The recent train disruptions in Auckland have highlighted how important it is KiwiRail and Auckland’s rail agencies work together to ...
The Government is proud to support the 10th edition of Crankworx Rotorua as the Crankworx World Tour returns to Rotorua from 16-24 March 2024, says Minister for Economic Development Melissa Lee. “Over the past 10 years as Crankworx Rotorua has grown, so too have the economic and social benefits that ...
Legislation implementing coalition Government tax commitments and addressing long-standing tax anomalies will be progressed in Parliament next week, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. The legislation is contained in an Amendment Paper to the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2023–24, Multinational Tax, and Remedial Matters) Bill issued today. “The Amendment Paper represents ...
Associate Environment Minister Andrew Hoggard has today announced that the Government has agreed to suspend the requirement for councils to comply with the Significant Natural Areas (SNA) provisions of the National Policy Statement for Indigenous Biodiversity for three years, while it replaces the Resource Management Act (RMA).“As it stands, SNAs ...
Agriculture Minister Todd McClay has classified the drought conditions in the Marlborough, Tasman, and Nelson districts as a medium-scale adverse event, acknowledging the challenging conditions facing farmers and growers in the district. “Parts of Marlborough, Tasman, and Nelson districts are in the grip of an intense dry spell. I know ...
The Government is helping farmers eradicate the significant impact of facial eczema (FE) in pastoral animals, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced. “A $20 million partnership jointly funded by Beef + Lamb NZ, the Government, and the primary sector will save farmers an estimated NZD$332 million per year, and aims to ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has completed a successful visit to India, saying it was an important step in taking the relationship between the two countries to the next level. “We have laid a strong foundation for the Coalition Government’s priority of enhancing New Zealand-India relations to generate significant future benefit for both countries,” says Mr Peters, ...
Cabinet has agreed to provide $7 million to ensure the 2024 ski season can go ahead on the Whakapapa ski field in the central North Island but has told the operator Ruapehu Alpine Lifts it is the last financial support it will receive from taxpayers. Cabinet also agreed to provide ...
Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says the launch of a new mobile breast screening unit in Counties Manukau reinforces the coalition Government’s commitment to drive better cancer services for all New Zealanders. Speaking at the launch of the new mobile clinic, Dr Reti says it’s a great example of taking ...
Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says the launch of a new mobile breast screening unit in Counties Manukau reinforces the coalition Government’s commitment to drive better cancer services for all New Zealanders. Speaking at the launch of the new mobile clinic, Dr Reti says it’s a great example of taking ...
Unlocking economic growth and land for housing are critical elements of the Government’s plan for our transport network, and planned upgrades to State Highway 29 (SH29) near Tauriko will deliver strongly on those priorities, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “The SH29 upgrades near Tauriko will improve safety at the intersections ...
Unlocking economic growth and land for housing are critical elements of the Government’s plan for our transport network, and planned upgrades to State Highway 29 (SH29) near Tauriko will deliver strongly on those priorities, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “The SH29 upgrades near Tauriko will improve safety at the intersections ...
Lower fruit and vegetable prices are welcome news for New Zealanders who have been doing it tough at the supermarket, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. Stats NZ reported today the price of fruit and vegetables has dropped 9.3 percent in the 12 months to February 2024. “Lower fruit and vege ...
Tēnā koutou katoa and greetings to you all. Chair, I am honoured to address the sixty-eighth session of the Commission on the Status of Women. I acknowledge the many crises impacting the rights of women and girls. Heightened global tensions, war, climate related and humanitarian disasters, and price inflation all ...
Tēnā koutou katoa and greetings to you all. Chair, I am honoured to address the 68th session of the Commission on the Status of Women. I acknowledge the many crises impacting the rights of women and girls. Heightened global tensions, war, climate related and humanitarian disasters, and price inflation all ...
The coalition Government is supporting farmers to enhance land management practices by investing $3.3 million in locally led catchment groups, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced. “Farmers and growers deliver significant prosperity for New Zealand and it’s vital their ongoing efforts to improve land management practices and water quality are supported,” ...
Good evening everyone and thank you for that lovely introduction. Thank you also to the Honourable Simon Bridges for the invitation to address your members. Since being sworn in, this coalition Government has hit the ground running with our 100-day plan, delivering the changes that New Zealanders expect of us. ...
Recommendations from the Climate Change Commission for New Zealand on the Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) auction and unit limit settings for the next five years have been tabled in Parliament, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. “The Commission provides advice on the ETS annually. This is the third time the ...
The coalition Government is beginning its fight to lower building costs and reduce red tape by exempting minor building work from paying the building levy, says Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk. “Currently, any building project worth $20,444 including GST or more is subject to the building levy which is ...
Proposed changes to tax legislation to prevent the over-taxation of low-earning trusts are welcome, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. The changes have been recommended by Parliament’s Finance and Expenditure Committee following consideration of submissions on the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2023–24, Multinational Tax, and Remedial Matters) Bill. “One of the ...
Assalaamu alaikum. السَّلَام عليكم In light of the holy month of Ramadan, I want to extend my warmest wishes to our Muslim community in New Zealand. Ramadan is a time for spiritual reflection, renewed devotion, perseverance, generosity, and forgiveness. It’s a time to strengthen our bonds and appreciate the diversity ...
Former Transport Minister and CEO of the Auckland Business Chamber Hon Simon Bridges has been appointed as the new Board Chair of the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) for a three-year term, Transport Minister Simeon Brown announced today. “Simon brings extensive experience and knowledge in transport policy and governance to the role. He will ...
Good morning all, it is a pleasure to be here as Minister of Science, Innovation and Technology. It is fantastic to see how connected and collaborative the life science and biotechnology industry is here in New Zealand. I would like to thank BioTechNZ and NZTech for the invitation to address ...
Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says he is looking forward to the day when three key water projects in Northland are up and running, unlocking the full potential of land in the region. Mr Jones attended a community event at the site of the Otawere reservoir near Kerikeri on Friday. ...
Associate Finance Minister David Seymour has today announced that the Government has agreed to restore deductibility for mortgage interest on residential investment properties. “Help is on the way for landlords and renters alike. The Government’s restoration of interest deductibility will ease pressure on rents and simplify the tax code,” says ...
Sport and Recreation Minister Chris Bishop will travel to Switzerland today to attend an Executive Committee meeting and Symposium of the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA). Mr Bishop will then travel on to London where he will attend a series of meetings in his capacity as Infrastructure Minister. “New Zealanders believe ...
Pacific Media Watch Earthwise hosts Lois and Martin Griffiths. Earthwise presenters Lois and Martin Griffiths on Plains FM 96.9 community radio talk to Dr David Robie, a New Zealand author, independent journalist and media educator with a passion for the Asia-Pacific region. David talks about the struggle to raise awareness ...
Pacific Media Watch Ismail al-Ghoul, an Al Jazeera Arabic correspondent who was held for 12 hours at Gaza’s al-Shifa hospital, says Israeli forces rounded up Palestinian journalists at the facility and made them kneel on the ground for hours, while naked and blindfolded. “The occupation forces handcuffed and blindfolded us ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Tony Wood, Program Director, Energy, Grattan Institute chinasong, Shutterstock Electricity customers in four Australian states can breathe a sigh of relief. After two years in a row of 20% price increases, power prices have finally stabilised. In many places they’re ...
Chumbawamba have reportedly issued the deputy PM a cease-and-desist notice after he used their song 'Tubthumping' before his state of the nation speech. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Deborah Lupton, SHARP Professor, Vitalities Lab, Centre for Social Research in Health and Social Policy Centre, and the ARC Centre of Excellence for Automated Decision-Making and Society, UNSW Sydney kitzcorner/Shutterstock The assertion from Queensland’s chief health officer John Gerrard that ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Peter Martin, Visiting Fellow, Crawford School of Public Policy, Australian National University Shutterstock Why are musicians so keen to get played on the radio? It can’t be because of the money. In Australia they are paid at rates so low they ...
"Farmers make a point not to tell our urban cousins how to live, yet Chlöe from central Auckland is hell-bent on having her say about farmers," says ACT Rural Communities spokesman Mark Cameron. “On her first day in the House as Green ...
Analysis by Dr Bryce Edwards – Democracy Project (https://democracyproject.nz)Political scientist, Dr Bryce Edwards. It’s been a tumultuous time in politics in recent months, as the new National-led Government has driven through its “First 100 Day programme”. During this period there’s been a handful of opinion polls, which overall just ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Tim Curran, Associate Professor of Ecology, Lincoln University, New Zealand Getty Images/Gerald Corsi In the latest move to reform environmental laws in New Zealand, the coalition government has introduced a bill to fast-track consenting processes for projects deemed to ...
Uber has argued it does not have as much control over drivers as the unions suggest, and wants a judgment ruling that drivers are employees and not contractors set aside and sent back to the Employment Court. The 2022 ruling followed a three-week hearing in which four drivers sought to ...
What can and can’t be purchased by disabled people or their carers has been slashed in an effort by the Ministry of Disabled People Whaikaha to save money. The purchasing guidelines, a set of rules that sets out what can be purchased using the various streams of Government disability funding, ...
The Treasury has published today a new Analytical Note by Tod Wright and Hien Nguyen, Fiscal incidence in New Zealand: The effects of taxes and benefits on household incomes in tax year 2018/19 . Analyses of the distributional impact of taxation and government ...
The Treasury has published today a new Analytical Note by Cory Davis, Boston Hart and Benjamin Stubbing, Household cost-of-living impacts from the Emissions Trading Scheme and using transfers to mitigate regressive outcomes . This Analytical Note ...
A coalition of public transport and climate organisations, united as ‘Transport for All’, is actively opposing the government’s transport proposals. The draft Government Policy Statement (GPS) includes plans for higher fares for public transport, ...
Greater Wellington is inviting feedback on proposed changes to its Revenue and Financing Policy. The Revenue and Financing Policy covers the Council’s various sources of funding, and how the cost of services is shared across the region. This includes ...
Labour has conceded it could have done more to deal with disruptive state housing tenants while in government but says the current coalition is going too far. ...
The band has asked their record label to issue a cease and desist to stop the NZ First leader using their 1997 hit to support his ‘misguided political views’. “I get knocked down, but I get up again,” blared through the speakers on Sunday as Winston Peters took the stage ...
By Lydia Lewis, RNZ Pacific journalist Food rationing is underway in remote areas in Papua New Guinea’s Highlands following torrential rain and flash flooding. More than 20 people have been reported dead in Chimbu Province. In nearby Enga Province, the centre of last month’s massacre, a 15-year-old boy has been ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Andrew Hughes, Lecturer, Research School of Management, Australian National University After months of debate and intrigue, the AFL’s 19th and newest team, the Tasmania Devils, finally launched its jumper, logo and colours in Devonport this week. The Devils will wear green, ...
Brannavan Gnanalingam reviews the debut novel by Saraid de Silva.One of the most baffling things for children who move to a new country is what their parents’ (or grandparents’) lives were like prior to moving – for kids in particular, they’re too busy trying to fit in in their ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Stephen Gaunson, Associate Professor in Cinema Studies, RMIT University Narelle Portanier/Binge “If you don’t know who your mob are, you don’t know who you are,” Detective Andrea “Andie” Whitford (played by Leah Purcell) is told early into the new crime ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Elise Klein, Associate professor, Australian National University It’s commonly accepted that women do the vast majority of caregiving in Australian society. But less appreciated is that Indigenous women do larger amounts of unpaid care than any other group. Working with the Aboriginal ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Adrian Beaumont, Election Analyst (Psephologist) at The Conversation; and Honorary Associate, School of Mathematics and Statistics, The University of Melbourne Joe Biden and Donald Trump have both secured their parties’ nominations for the November 5 United States general election by winning a ...
Comment: There has been a striking contrast in trans-Tasman interest about Chinese foreign minister Wang Yi’s visit to New Zealand and Australia. While the Australian press has been full of articles about the visit – including his curious decision to meet with former prime minister and China booster Paul Keating ...
After years of pressuring banks and other institutions to stop investing in fossil fuels, climate campaigners are making some progress. So how does divestment work?For years, climate activists have been pushing banks and other big institutions to divest from fossil fuels. New research from climate advocacy group 350 Aotearoa ...
For Boba, Ethan and Ashley, K-pop is a place to belong, a way to express themselves, and a bridge to connect with others. The three young Polynesians are part of a K-pop fan community in Tāmaki Makaurau. It’s one of many that have sprung up worldwide as K-pop has gone ...
For Boba, Ethan and Ashley, K-pop is a place to belong, a way to express themselves, and a bridge to connect with others. This one-off documentary presents three intimate portraits of young Polynesians who are pulled into a Korean cultural phenomenon. K-POLYS is directed by Litia Tuiburelevu, Produced by Hex ...
There’s ample evidence demonstrating free school lunch programmes provide wide benefits across schools, households and communities according to public health researchers. ACT Minister David Seymour wants to reduce the spending on Aotearoa New Zealand’s ...
By Wata Shaw in Suva Fiji is facing an exodus of Fijians as many are leaving for overseas seeking employment and education and others are migrating, says Opposition MP Viliame Naupoto. Speaking in Parliament, he said: “His Excellency’s speech (Ratu Wiliame Katonivere) comes after a little over one year of ...
The Taxpayers’ Union is welcoming comments from Christopher Luxon this morning recommitting to ‘no new taxes’ as part of Budget 2024. “Mr Luxon’s refusal at the Post-Cabinet press conference yesterday to repeat the ‘no new taxes’ promise ...
SAFE is urgently calling on the Environment Committee to reject the Government’s Fast-Track Approvals Bill, and is urging New Zealanders to rally behind the call. The proposed Bill, currently under consideration with the Environment select committee, ...
Teammates who spend all their time picking fights with spectators are only helpful for the other team, writes Madeleine Chapman. Anyone who has ever played a team sport competitively, particularly as a child and particularly, for some reason, basketball, will know that there’s a lot of politics involved. While there ...
The long-running Wellington music festival is too focused on the Jim Beam-ness and not enough on the Homegrown-ness.There is something about Homegrown that’s difficult to place. A barely perceptible-ness. Like feeling a ghost is watching you from the corner of the room but when you look, there’s nothing there. ...
The latest Ipsos New Zealand Issues Monitor reveals that fewer New Zealanders believe crime / law and order is one of the top issues facing our country. In 2018, Ipsos New Zealand started tracking the key issues facing New Zealand. In this wave ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Kate Griffiths, Deputy Program Director, Budgets and Government, Grattan Institute Australia’s political donations rules are woefully inadequate, but donations reform is finally on the agenda. The federal government has signalled its interest in reform and will soon begin briefing MPs on its ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Mark Patrick Taylor, Chief Environmental Scientist, EPA Victoria; Honorary Professor, School of Natural Sciences, Macquarie University Naiyana Somchitkaeo/Shutterstock A recent study published in the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine has linked microplastics with risk to human health. The study ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Albert Van Dijk, Professor, Water and Landscape Dynamics, Fenner School of Environment & Society, Australian National University Global climate records were shattered in 2023, from air and sea temperatures to sea-level rise and sea-ice extent. Scores of countries recorded their hottest year ...
As part of our series exploring how New Zealanders live and our relationship with money, a teacher explains why he and his partner are in frugal mode – and how they’re making it work. Gender: Male Age: 35Ethnicity: Pākehā Role: I am an intermediate school teacher and my partner is ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sarah Bendall, Senior Lecturer, Institute for Humanities and Social Sciences, Australian Catholic University Binge Mary & George, the new British television drama series, depicts the real-life story of Mary Villiers and her son George, and their social climbing at the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jason Nassios, Associate Professor, Centre of Policy Studies, Victoria University This article is part of The Conversation’s series examining the housing crisis. Read the other articles in the series here. Australian state and federal governments spend money in many ways to ...
The finance minister is denying that there’s a $5.6b shortfall in paying for the government’s campaign promises, including tax cuts. At his post-cabinet press conference yesterday, the PM refused to rule out new taxes to pay for the cuts, writes Anna Rawhiti-Connell in this excerpt from The Bulletin, The Spinoff’s ...
Kāinga Ora tenants abused by their neighbours are doubting the government's crackdown on disruptive tenants will make a difference on their behaviour. ...
Kāinga Ora is New Zealand’s biggest residential landlord, housing more than 180,000 vulnerable people in more than 67,000 properties. Yesterday the government announced a crackdown on its tenants who fall behind on rent. One longtime Kāinga Ora tenant shares her experience.For 18 years I lived in a 1960s standalone ...
Why does this myth persist, and what’s the real reason our skin is suffering?It’s one of the biggest international grievances New Zealanders hold, up there with the sinking of the Rainbow Warrior and 1981’s underarm incident. We’re quick to tell international travellers that the world’s pollution led to the ...
A huge seven months lies in store for the White Ferns, beginning this week with the visit of England and culminating with the T20 World Cup in Bangladesh in September and October. Starting on Tuesday in Dunedin, the world ranked No. 2 visitors will play five T20s and three ODIs, ...
Opinion: In a move that has shocked road safety advocates across the country, the new Minister of Transport, Simeon Brown, is poised to abandon the previous government’s speed limit reduction policy, particularly around schools. Even more alarmingly, he wants school speed limits to be variable rather than full-time, arguing ...
Auckland Council is opposing a fast-track development backed by Sir John Kirwan and Spark NZ, because it doesn’t meet stringent new climate adaptation requirements The post Surf-data centre faces new 3.8C climate warming rules appeared first on Newsroom. ...
When the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Act was introduced in 2009 it was firmly targeted at gangs and drugs. The legislation means police no longer need a conviction to seize assets that criminals can’t prove were paid for legitimately, as long as their alleged offences are punishable by more than a ...
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Bob’s relationship with certain members of Lincoln’s academic staff continued to deteriorate in the 1990s. Others supported him publicly, though articles such as Roland Clark’s 1993 piece in Growing Today cannot have pleased the university management. Clark wrote that Bob was selling onions from the Biological Husbandry Unit to a ...
SailGP’s races feature in-your-face action, with agile, hydro-foiling catamarans tacking and jibing for the title over several days. However, public comments ahead of the global series’ return to New Zealand have left this past year’s controversy in the shadows, as a key appointment attracts criticism from dolphin advocates. A year ...
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Update on the Mataraunga Maaori component in first year uni paper from an anecdotal perspective.
Was reinforced in test that concepts and understanding had to relate only to lecturer's definitions, personal knowledge or alternate definitions would be marked as wrong.
Eg. What is the definition of whanau?
The only 'right' answer, is your direct ancestors. Any other definition – no marks.
Also, MM questions twice the points for no discernible reason.
This approach is inviting resistance and pushback.
Moved to desktop.
I support the intention of mātauranga Māori, but am concerned about the implemention of the project.
To me, this has similar hallmarks to the Equality and Diversity intention, that has been rolled out through our institutions, businesses and government departments.
Employing identified individuals as experts and representatives to provide material and ideas for projects is a starting point. However, what they produce still should be actively scrutinised for appropriateness, quality and any statement of facts should be well-evidenced.
Getting this wrong, not only means that those learning are not actually being delivered good quality material, but it provides space for justified criticism, which unfortunately gives fodder to the underlying racism for some.
My son still won't let me watch the videos, but from a personal point of view, he's dismissive of the value and quality of what was delivered to him – and hundreds of other students – by the mātauranga Māori component of the paper.
What other definitions are you aware of, Molly?
Family, both blood-relations and non.
Also used informally to refer to a group gathered for some purpose, ie. interests. Our rugby whanau.
"Our rugby whanau"?
I'm with the lecturer 🙂
That's interesting. I hear it used in such a way in many meetings run by Māori facilitators and taiako. Have you never come across it? Might be a regional use of the word.
The ancestor definition, excludes whangai adoptions and implies a connection to bloodlines going one way, up or down from an individual.
It might be a personal perspective, but whanau for me is more of a weaving concept, pulling and connecting threads from a vast array of 'relatives' and familial connections. It's probably my personal attachment to this definition, that makes me reluctant to relinquish it.
It's not the definition that concerns me, direct ancestors is accurate in and of itself. It is the insistence that only that definition will be deemed to be correct. I love the other aspects of whanau, and if those attending this class believe there is only one 'correct' answer, they may lose a wider understanding when meeting the word in future.
That's the concept of whanau that I particularly love, where it encompasses ‘family’ in a broader concept than standard nuclear family relationships. Family in the 'heart' sense rather than the 'genetic' sense.
Seems like an unnecessarily narrow and exclusive definition.
I agree, that if this education is so prescriptive (just memorize the list of concepts and definitions), it's going to accomplish little in enculturating MM in the students – and is very likely to build resentment and push-back.
It seems the complete reversal of the te ao Maori philosophy.
How could they get it so wrong?
When seeking the essential meaning of Te Tiriti o Waitangi, we have to defer to the indigenous version. Perhaps here we need to do the same.
We all have our reckons, but it's not really our business, is it, how words outside of English are defined. In any case, the "lecturer" might just as well be planning to expand upon their definition of "whanau" as the course proceeds. Molly's example seems very tenuous to me.
Molly is an indigenous version of – well – Molly.
If tenuous is referring to a slender thread – well, that is definitely, not a definition fitting this indigenous Molly.
Some may consider it culturally insensitive to ascribe new meanings to words taken/adopted from Aotearoa NZ's first language, but if history is any teacher then 'resisting the drift' will be mostly futile. Can we change?
Being dogmatic about traditional usage, or meaning, is one way of ensuring Māori becomes a dead language.
Many English words have been adopted to Māori beginning from the First European visiters. To insist only on traditional usage we would have to remove them also.
Anyway the Tamariki are voting with their feet, using Māori words, in ways and situations that are definitely not traditional.
The French tried to keep their language pristine. It didn't work.
Some of the dogmatism is just ignorance. Kids at a High school I was teaching in, kept correcting my pronunciation. One of the old Māori Teachers told them, "don't be so bloody cheeky, he is from Taranaki". She even knew which part of Taranaki, from my accent in Māori. The "correct" Māori pronunciation followed is very often Ngapuhi, which annoys the hell out of Ngāi Tahu and others.
Are we to think that the teacher in the example given by Molly, knows less about this than we do?
Hopeless at languages, so a bit of 'sloppage' suits me fine, but I can appreciate the value of precise language too, in context.
[In context isn’t quite right – hope you get my drift.]
Māori have a long, and recognisable history of word creation, that contributes to the longevity of language.
ie. motukā, pouaka makariri, tīwī
A combination of transliteration, and word creation from root words.
The argument that only existing kupu are available, is not convincing. If anything, a living dynamic language is consistently creating new words.
However, if significant words are thus required to accommodate new meanings, then it may have a negative impact.
The Te Reo course I did, was very interesting when it focused on the regional differences and dialects. I wish I could develop the same ear for regional differences in Te Reo, as easily as I can distinguish from regional differences in the UK. It's a sorry acknowledgement of my insufficient Te Reo that I have no idea.
You're on fire at the moment, this is about the second post I've agreed with you on over the last couple of days
Welcome to the light side
We do not know who 'they' is yet.
Due to my recent foray into researching porn, I've left investigating the NZ curriculum regarding mātauranga Māori, and Sexuality and Relationship investigation.
The NCEA, and TKI websites are a pain to navigate as a novice, and material is linked to from multiple sites and pages.
Here is one such link to the Secondary Curriculum for science, where you can download a fairly short pdf on concepts.
https://ncea.education.govt.nz/science/chemistry-and-biology?view=learning
Unfortunately, this is not the page where I found word 'whakapapa' used interchangeably with the concept of evolution. If I come across it again, I'll post.
Whakapapa for me holds such significance, in te ao Māori, that I resist the expansion of the word to encompass a concept that was not part of te ao Māori knowledge.
Another example that is shown on the CB Learning Matrix_1.pdf is for 'mauri' to refer to energy bonds at atomic levels.
"recognise that mauri is present in all matter which exists as particles held together by attractive forces"
My understanding of this word was 'life-force', a recognition of organic life-forms and/or sentience ascribed to non-organic forms. ie. mountains, rivers etc.
I would prefer to see new Māori words for concepts that were not part of mātauranga Māori but utilise existing Te Reo to create.
I'm uncomfortable with the dilution of existing language to shoehorn new concepts in. From my perspective, it demeans the original kupu, and also muddies the scientific concept.
eg. Whakapapa for evolution.
Now I'm really puzzled, Molly. You write:
"I'm uncomfortable with the dilution of existing language to shoehorn new concepts in. From my perspective, it demeans the original kupu, and also muddies the scientific concept.
eg. Whakapapa for evolution."
and at the same time argue for that "whanau" is "used informally to refer to a group gathered for some purpose, ie. interests. Our rugby whanau."
Seems you're supporting both points of view?
Contradicting your original objection?
You also wrote:
“I do enjoy the broader application of this particular word. It’s just one of those kupu that resonates, hopefully for all NZers.”
Is that so long as the word is “whanau” and not “whakapapa”?
The issue here is not shortening or expanding words, Robert.
It is about making sure the intent of mātauranga Māori is achieved.
My concern with my son's course, is that it seems inclined to not inspire, or encourage, and may actually cause students to resist further learning because of the content and delivery.
My concern with the curriculum matrix, is that it uses significant Māori kupu and concepts, and shoehorns in a new definition that both dilutes the original meaning, and muddies the scientific concept. Once again, inviting pushback and resistance to further learning.
In te reo Māori words frequently mean more than one thing depending on context. I find it very odd that you've swung from complaining about a too narrow a definition of whānau, to getting upset that mauri (which is a bit broader than just lifeforce anyway – it is the motivating and identifying energy) can be applied to nuclear forces or that whakapapa (which is much broader than just genealogy and encompasses all living things and geographical landmarks as ancestors in relation to the speaker) should be applied to evolution.
You seem to want your cake and to eat it too.
I've replied to the same question from Robert Guyton, above.
You may have missed it:
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-04-06-2022/#comment-1892208
I couldn't understand your explanation, Molly.
I am siding with Populuxe 1, presently.
What? So a husband and wife aren't 'whanau'?
I'd say that's a fairly niche definition….
adopted children too.
kiaora e te whānau is a common expression used with all sorts of groups that aren't related ancestrally.
Hard to comment on the story told because it's third hand anecdote, but on the face of it it seems an odd definition to me. It's also possible there was context that makes sense of it.
Visiting Tahuwhakatiki Marae, Tauranga I was greated as Whanau, because I and my cousins had a Powhiri there in the past.
Whanau as used by Māori speakers today, from both personal observation and reading can include groups of friends, family both immediate or distant, a school community, a club.
Not just or even for kāwai, roots/ ancestors
May not have been past usage. But Māori like all languages evolves and adopts.
My non-Māori aunt didn’t Whakapapa to the Iwi, but she was certainly Whanau!
https://teara.govt.nz/en/whanau-maori-and-family/page-1
Nice link, thanks incognito.
I do enjoy the broader application of this particular word. It's just one of those kupu that resonates, hopefully for all NZers.
Māori have a word for ancestors. 'Whānau' is not it.
Someone is misunderstanding. Do you have written material from the course you could post here?
My option is to do an OIA for the videos of the lectures, and the written material.
Although my son has access, he is a rule follower. All online material has a statement that it is not to be shared with those not enrolled, and so he doesn't.
I understand that my perspective of his perspective is not an accurate rendering. Part of the reason I write this, is just to invite others to put forward their experiences. Or if they are in positions to access or scrutinise material, to do so.
If I can, I can find out the course code and stream. And perhaps, put in a request for that material but I'll wait till my son has completed this semester.
(ATM, still negotiating being in the same room while he re-watches. Two problems: he considers that dishonest, and he doesn’t want to watch it again.)
Ah, did not click that it was your son doing the course. Do you believe this sort of misunderstanding is widespread?
The drive in to university in the mornings, takes around an hour and a half. So, we were discussing material the day after it was presented.
As I acknowledge, it's a bit of a hearsay, hearsay situation. But as pedantic as he is with rules, he's similarly inclined in language.
"Do you believe this sort of misunderstanding is widespread?"
What specifically do you regard as a misunderstanding?
That whānau means ancestors. First time I’ve heard it.
I took it to mean that it only related to people of direct ancestry, rather than a replacement for tupuna. More a definition that related to shared blood links, as it were.
Once again, I acknowledge that this is my interpretation, of his interpretation being offered to you to interpret.
Not a sound basis for definitive analysis. More a check diagnostics light.
Seems to me to be an āwhā in an ipu tii.
Molly wrote:
"The only 'right' answer, is your direct ancestors."
That's very imprecise and perhaps causing confusion here.
Was "your direct ancestors" in fact the answer given, an interpretation of the answer given, or what?
If we are to make judgements based on this snippet (is it copied and pasted, is it second-hand, over-heard ? etc.) we are bound to get the wrong end of te rakau, imo.
As I said, it might be. But both during lectures, and before the test they were reminded that only the material and definitions that were taught during the course were going to be considered the 'correct' answers when it came to assessment.
(I'm really resisting the temptation to log on to my son's computer, and "assess" his interpretation of what is going on. But perhaps, someone reading this also has access to the course materials, and can provide direct experience.)
The lecturer did touch on the fact that others may have different definitions, tikanga etc, but for the purposes of assessment only those which had been delivered were accepted.
For the course I did on Tikanga Māori, the opposite was encouraged. As long as you referenced the origin of your understanding, and evidenced it, the contribution was accepted as valid. A really good exploratory assignment, especially when sharing with other students.
(My other cynical thought, is that for a generalised paper, this edict makes it easy to mark. That it all may boil down to a prosaic attitude of reducing marking time, for a lecturer that has more specific and labour-intensive courses to deliver.)
"But both during lectures, and before the test they were reminded that only the material and definitions that were taught during the course were going to be considered the 'correct' answers when it came to assessment."
Seems then, they were quite specific and gave fair direction and warning.
I'm unsure why this is concerning you.
It seems fair to me.
Very unusual in teaching anything.
It is how you know the class are listening. When they start arguing with you.
Me. “You are allowed to disagree, but you have to justify it.
That, if correct, is poor pedogogy, and different from the approach of the excellent Māori teachers I've seen at work.
The “Agree with what I say, or be marked wrong”, if true, is not exactly going to help with student engagement and understanding.
"That, if correct, is poor pedogogy, and different from the approach of the excellent Māori teachers I've seen at work."
Same here.
I've had kaiako who repeatedly encourage wider exploration of the concepts they were teaching.
I've also, unfortunately, had others that were there to punch the clock.
There's a marked difference in how much you learn and take away.
And especially unusual in teaching Te Reo or Maturanga Maori.
All of the (many) seminars, courses and workshops I've engaged in have been a very collaborative learning style. Where the knowledge of the course leader (being generously shared with the participants) is acknowledged and valued; but so is the knowledge that different participants bring to the discussion. I've been in a workshop where there was a long discussion about the different usage of a term on one marae in the FN (participant) and another in the SI (course leader) – very good-humored, and clearly a source of amusement to both of them; and another which was specifically related to an upcoming powhiri, where the leader specifically referred to the way things were done on this marae, rather than being necessarily correct for other marae.
This 'fount of all knowledge' style seems very foreign to the whole Matauranga Maori philosophy.
Written in much better than I could have Belladonna, but this has been my experience with Te Ao Māori in various learning environments too.
"Unusual"?
The teaching of te ao Maori should be "usual" – in step with the way non-Maori languages are taught?
Disclaimer: I was Head of Maori at Aparima College for a time, and taught all levels. He kaiwhakaako Maori au! I nga wa o mua 🙂
The direction and following assessment is not what concerns me, Robert.
If the intention is to both introduce and instill encouragement for further learning of Te Ao Māori in students – the way this has been delivered might actually do the opposite.
I'm concerned about the resulting attitude of the students, rather than my son's mark.
Are any students there going to be inspired to look further into the perspectives of Māori?
The other less desired prospect is that they may also react negatively to future contact with te Ao Māori if they come away with a sense that it is not relevant or quality information.
'Fair' as in easy to mark and to learn. Yep.
Useful, in actually inculcating MM into the learning (the stated aim)? I'd say fairly useless.
And, absolutely inviting push-back. I'd say that most of the Engineering students (I think that's the background here) are likely to simply learn for the exam, then promptly forget it. Just another set of useless 'facts'
A largely wasted exercise.
And especially useless for anyone who has had exposure to MM through other avenues (e.g. kohanga reo, kura or marae) – where the learning (as presented here) sounds very different to what they would have learned in a te ao Maori perspective.
Yes. General engineering Year 1 course at Auckland University.
With more than a few of your typical Engineering student personalities, I would expect.
So, this was the matauranga component of a year one engineering degree – what were you expecting!!!
My son got back, so I wangled the course code from him:
ENGGEN140 – Energy and Society
https://courseoutline.auckland.ac.nz/dco/course/ENGGEN/140
When Googling the course, I came across the UoA review page:
https://coursereview.co.nz/courses/uoa/enggen140
It would make sense if it was being used in a specific or technical context as applied to periodic elements or biological taxonomy.
If "it" is in fact, the case.
I tend to agree with Robert here. If the intention is to instill a broad brush overview of the Maori world then there is very little room for arguing a different view. The value of such a course is that it will do just this – cover concepts of language, iwi, etc tribal links, broad strokes world view and how it is linked.
One of the best bits of advice that I was told early on was to make sure you revise for exams on what has been taught, as the examiner is seeking to ensure that you have got this. This is different from you may have learned through your own explorations during the course, or prior knowledge accumulated.
So harking back to the word 'whanau' then if the course has taught this and the question gives no scope for exploring how it is used in contexts then the definition they are looking for is direct family.
Getting a law degree way way back at some institutions required Latin, or a foreign language. In my years we had some topics loosely covered by the phrase Law In Society. The idea was to give a background, an at ease look at the wider community we would be working in.
Over the years in the PS we were required to attend courses on Maori worldview/Maori language. For me this just built on classes at my secondary school and living in a mainly Maori township where the teachers routinely taught this. Now some PS agencies especially those in Treaty sensitive areas have an expectation or think highly of staff who have attended immersion courses.
I cannot imagine that a world going forward for an engineer would not cover the Maori world view. If you look at the story of how Ngati Tuhoe approached the building of Te Kura Whare then you will note the lengths that people working on the design etc of the building would have had to go to.
Input of a Maori aspect from the start, to put it bluntly is expected in most (all?) public building and this will only increase as the years go by. In the spirit of not not running before you can walk the course that your son is taking will be the bare minimum. Building on a bare but common minimum will set him up to explore in greater depth later.
From my personal viewpoint I would be careful of trying to trample over what might be a very carefully designed course that will give information and confidence without setting up people to argue the toss (I've seen it happen) about Treaty claims, bootstraps pulling…….etc.
If I was your son I would happily keep what I have learned, ie valuable concepts, from this course in my back pocket and reflect on them. If I had deviated along the way to have thoughts about pedagogy I would put that to one side.
Maori is used much more frequently now and if he can see that whanau has already gone on to be used as an encompassing way to describe club members then he can see language and culture at work.
https://www.ngaituhoe.iwi.nz/sustainability-and-the-living-building-challenge
https://thisnzlife.co.nz/tuhoe-leading-way-sustainable-design/
Thoughtful and comprehensive response there, Shanreagh.
I'm mindful that this section of the engineering course focused on matauranga Maori, not te reo Maori per se.
The fact though, that the two "threads" are so intertwined is a crucial one and worthy of further exploration.
In my sphere of engagement, local government through regional council, I observe the wrangling over matauranga and reo with the central focus on te mana o te wai and hauora; highly-charged points of both misunderstanding and breakthrough.
Yes I realise that and for me that gives even more relevance to the idea of reflecting back what a student has been taught. So the student gives their knowledge back to the tutor. In giving back this knowledge to the tutor then the tutor is also able to learn – to work out where they may have to apply a different emphasis for their learners in the future. I think a tutor would be disappointed in themselves if students got themselves tangled up in extensions to meanings so much so that the original meaning was lost.
We might be able to mount an argument as a new learner of a language. though for me it is more about idiom, tenses et and my questioning is about what I can see as inconsistencies. To mount an argument on the cultural aspects on the strength of the work of a semester or two would be fraught I would have thought. I would be very, very wary that this gave me any great insight into the culture and lived in experience behind the words. For instance even though I speak German and French I would be very skeptical that this gave me standing to debate, say, the German word das Volk. It is so tied up with other historical and cultural concepts.
The best outcome for a course of this type is to build an awareness of different worlds/drivers. If it has a result down the track of ensuring an engineer responds to a brief that looks as though it may involve Te Ao by saying I'll be sure to get specialist input on this, or makes the same engineer mindful and respectful of Te Ao Maori, even down to being able to introduce themselves or knowledge of hapu/iwi structures, creation story etc then the course will have been successful. Humility and knowing what you don't know, when this is important is a key value too.
The engineers involved in the Ngati Tuhoe house would have been far beyond this prelim knowledge but they, and the clients both, would have been expecting that anyone who came with input would be aware of it.
Ae. Kei te tika tau.
My son got back, so I wangled the course code from him:
ENGGEN140 – Energy and Society
https://courseoutline.auckland.ac.nz/dco/course/ENGGEN/140
When Googling the course, I came across the UoA review page:
https://coursereview.co.nz/courses/uoa/enggen140
He also took pains to mention, that he could be wrong. So, as I said, it may be hearsay + hearsay = completely wrong end of the stick.
Because of Covid restrictions, all the lectures were recorded and put online.
Also, it could just be that this is a generalised course and not a good example. I posted below:
(My other cynical thought, is that for a generalised paper, this edict makes it easy to mark. That it all may boil down to a prosaic attitude of reducing marking time, for a lecturer that has more specific and labour-intensive courses to deliver.)
Thermodynamics was one of the subjects I enjoyed the most and attained an A+ in at each level. So most of this looks like a very recognisable introduction:
But in my honest view introducing cultural concepts into this course feels contrived. The laws of the universe owe nothing to human social habits and outlooks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTHazQeM8v8&
am momentarily distracted by the Course Review site using 'relaxed' as a criteria.
Thanks for pointing that out.
FWIW, seems to have scored fairly highly on the Relaxed criteria.
Yeah – I recall one paper we did that was a series of about 3 or 4 invited lecturers from other depts like Philosophy, Anthro and Law. Quite interesting but very relaxed. So there is nothing terribly new about trying to inject a little couth into first year Engineering students.
One line the Philosophy guy came up with is that the subject was often considered so divorced from real life, that meeting your Philosophy tutor in a pub was like meeting your mother in a massage parlour. Mutually embarrassing.
Like all languages there are often synomyms for similar meanings. Whanau strictly means your immediate living relatives, but like the English word family, it can be used flexibly. For example in English we might say 'the family of humanity' or a 'family of Pacific cultures'. On the other hand there are pedants in every culture.
As for ancestors – the more accurate word I think is whakapapa. IIRC.
Hon. Megan Woods demolished Bishop in Parliament this week.
https://twitter.com/clintvsmith/status/1532197055535656960?s=21&t=4H3eRgaENoK-UwXLJNRo1w
Geez, did Meagan feed him the questions?
Yes, thoroughly enjoyed watching that. Megan chewed him up and spat him out!
We didn't see that on ONE news though did we, wonder why.
That was fun
When Stuart Nash left his weekly radio slot with Mikey and Mark Mitchell, I was hoping Nash would be replaced with Kiri Allan. Allan seems to me to be a straight up sheila with brains. However, we got Megan Woods. And I must say after a couple of mediocre sessions, she has found her stride. She cleaned Mitchell up in their last debate.
Nice one Robo. National's tactic to attack Labour on an issue they are strong on and National were useless on seems a bit daft…but that's Chris Bishop for you.
From the "Taxpayers Union":
https://www.taxpayers.org.nz/three_waters_poll2
"Do you think those that are responsible for local drinking, waste and provision of storm water services should be directly accountable to voters"
Now faced with such a question, who would think too carefully about just what "directly' meant, or whether "those responsible" are local government, regional Councils, or the New Zealand Government? Not surprisingly, a large majority of people answering the question wanted those responsible (whoever they are) to also be accountable – most readers of The Standard may have answered the question that way. Our NZ Govt has responsibility for setting standards and seeing them met – and we saw the last National (party) government set low standards, then deliberately interfere with Environment Canterbury to prevent enforcement, leading to now compromised aquifer supply and problems for towns and cities. Now it could be argued that the Taxpayers union are reprehensible for such a poorly worded survey, and for their poor judgement in the interpretation they placed on the results, and David Farrar has allowed that report to carry the Curia Logo. Has Farrar failed to meet minimum professional polling standards by such a misleading question and such a misleading report on the results?
See also https://twitter.com/TaxpayersUnion/status/1532510556128935936/photo/1
Well described, Ed1.
I'd have thought that the question encompassed all of the possibilities of 'directly accountable' (government, regional government, local government) – that you've suggested.
What it doesn't encompass is a multi-layer appointed bureaucracy and co-governance by iwi (the governance model proposed under 3 waters)
Neither of which are accountable to voters at all. And I have yet to see this meaningfully addressed by Mahuta, or anyone else involved in 3 waters.
I suspect that those completing the survey absolutely understood the question, and answered accordingly.
You may not like the answer. But I suspect that Labour may be about to find out just how much Kiwis don't like this model of governance.
But do we have any level of accountability to voters or consumers with our electricity or telecommunications services? Or even roading, which is mostly controlled by Waka Kotahi, a government agency.
Democratic control of our water services by local government politicians hasn't really served us that well, and the right's alternatives of contracting and privatisation are unlikely to do any better.
I welcome the balance that Maori representaion on the boards of the 3 Waters entities will bring. In Otago Ngāi Tahu have had a governance role over our lakes, waterways and landscape for 20 years and the world hasn't ended. Many would say that it's a much better world, once Ngāi Tahu became involved Councils actually started doing something about their sewage discharges into waterways. Still a long way to go but there's been a change in direction. The balance between Te Ao Māori and Pakeha dominion will put our society in a more sustainable place into our future.
It will provide a constructive conflict in a similar way to the USA's constitution has various governance groups complementing each other, often in conflict, to provide a stable and constructive governance.
I welcome iwi involvement, and think there are lots of benefits for everyone from co-governance. I'm considerably less convinced that bods in Chch can make good decisions about small towns in Southland or Otago.
"Or even roading, which is mostly controlled by Waka Kotahi, a government agency."
Yes, we do. If it's controlled by the government, we get to vote on the policies every 3 years. Whereas AT – an unelected roading and transport bureaucracy in Auckland, which is apparently entirely uncontrolled by the council (in practice) – appears to have no redress from voters, whatsoever. Just a never-ending stream of wasteful projects, and apparently no money to deal with basic repair work.
You have a choice with power or telecoms – if you don't like the policies (or ethics) of one of the companies, you can pick up your account and vote with your wallet – at any time.
Not really an option with water….
Any time someone says 'democtratic control ….. hasn't served us well' – a shiver runs up my spine. That is *exactly* how autocracies begin…. always with the 'best' of intentions. But "all power has a tendency to corrupt, and absolute power has the tendency to corrupt absolutely".
Anyone who truly believes that the right wants to privatize and sell off water – should be fighting this legislation tooth and nail. It's virtually impossible to sell off a fragmented asset (as water currently is), but much, much easier to sell off one which has been nicely packaged into a single organization. Personally, I don't believe that the right has any such intention – but if you do, then this is the riskiest legislation that you could possibly support. At some point, a right government *will* be elected…
Ngai Tahu have nicely enriched their tribal elite (as have Tainui) – I've yet to see any sustainable benefit to the rest of NZ (or, indeed to the rest of Maori – especially the urban Maori who have some of the worst social outcomes).
Councils across the whole of NZ have been 'doing something' about discharges of sewerage – it's difficult to claim that it's entirely due to iwi influence. And Ngai Tahu, at least, are substantial dairy farmers – I'm sure that's true of other iwi in other regions as well.
why do you think that Nact wouldn't want to privatise drinking water and waste water? Isn't it already partially privatised?
The operation of 3 Waters is generally contracted out to either the TA's CCO, another TA's CCO, or a completely private organisation like Fulton Hogan, Downer or Veolia. The last two groups have quite a bit of power over the contracting TA, I've heard the relationship described as akin to farming.
Nact aligned parties have been at the forefront of this contracting, so it’s definitely the way they want things. it’s done one little bite at a time and then merged into larger and larger organisations that gradually creep into multinational corporates.
The proposed reforms will put a few controls over this. It'll be mostly the same organisations / people doing the work but the scale will hopefully bring a lot of functions back in-house and curb the farming.
Very good for retirement jobs for ex National MP' s.
The fact of the creeping privatisation that has been happening with public assets, including those mostly under the RADAR by council's, is ignored by 3 waters opponents. Obviously because they are happy for it to continue.
Absolutely shitting that their nice little earner will come to a halt more like
You got it.
are you saying 'it's already happeing, so what's the problem?"
If not, please point to the parts of the 3 Waters plan that are specifically designed to prevent privatisation.
My understanding is that councils either do work themselves, contract out to private orgs, or set up organisations that are designed to function like private companies. If National wanted to sell those off, how would it do it currently, given central government doesn't have control of councils and there are still mechanisms for communities to object?
We were one election away from the whole lot being sold off in Auckland.
Banks stated intention if he got in.
Makes it much harder to keep privatisation out of public view if it cannot be done, bit by bit.
It should be stated that part of three waters is bringing more expertise into managing contracting out, which is a part of creeping privatisation of asset management we should oppose. But if it is happening it needs a much greater degree of competent oversight.
Examples are Air NZ and other privatisations which didn't go unnoticed. Note however that National cared so much about democracy that they went ahead anyway. Not without public opposition, though.
Hence labour currently trying to entrench anti -privatisation provisions. The part of the Three Waters bill that opposes privatisation. National, who have suddenly become concerned about public ownership, sic. are opposing them.
Council's privatising the provisions of functions is a problem.
Dog control and park maintenance in Whangarei is one example I've seen close up.
The ever increasing costs and unaccountability of out sourcing what should be core functions.
Wellington bus services is another that has been in the news lately.
I've seen two examples of privatisation of the 3 Waters management in Queenstown, along with other QLDC functions. The first with with contracting to the old works management, who then sold out to another TA's contracting arm was a disaster, the second to a multi national organisation really hasn't lived up to it's promises and may reveal a few unpleasant surprises under the carpet once it's over. QLDC initially wasn't supportive of the 3 Waters proposal, now they are. QLDC have seen the alternatives and see 3 Waters as the preferred option. The real opportunities for privatisation are the small, failing, TA's that don't have an alternative, QLDC was very much in that situation and it looked like a good idea at the time.
"Ngai Tahu have nicely enriched their tribal elite"
Well if you call Ngāi Tahu's engaged community a 'tribal elite' you'd be right. I'm seeing an organisation that going from strength to strength growing and supporting it's members and the surrounding community and environment. I wish I had the whakapapa to be fully engaged.
I wish I had the whakapapa to be fully engaged.
If the left properly understood the iwi entities as essentially nothing more than family owned private corporations with a closed shareholding – then Three Waters would be seen in a quite different light.
Don't think corporation is quite the right description. While the iwi entities are very commercial, there is an equal benevolent focus, often benefiting the wider community.
Could the same be said for Fonterra, Farmlands or Gloriavale? All similarly closed 'corporations'
there is an equal benevolent focus, often benefiting the wider community.
So would you have any objection then to say the Anglican Church having a governance stake in Three Waters?
The Anglican Church and the Crown have a treaty??
The head of the Anglican church is the Crown ( betty windsor)
Ah!
That's a treaty out of the question then.
So this partnership you speak of is a one sided affair in which only one signatory gets to participate or have any say?
I don't understand your comment.
Wishing those "iwi entities" well – both ‘sides’ can teach us all a thing or two.
Indeed – but the idea that only Maori know how to advocate for ethical investiment and sustainability is a tad presumptious surely?
Who is promoting this "tad presumptious [sic]" idea?
Imho that idea is almost as presumptuous as the idea that Māori culture has nothing to offer non-Māori when it comes to ethical investment/investiment and sustainability.
So why then do the left consider Maori corporations to be good and benign while all others are predatory capitalists?
RL, it's hilariously hypocritical that all this 'concern' is being whipped up at the slightest hint of Māori making a bit of 'unearned' profit, when NZ and the rest of the world is awash with unearned profit as it is. Little more than fearmongering, imho.
Now if only there was a mechanism to distribute a slightly larger proportion of the existing unearned profit more equitably…
As for your presumptuous question, it's a non sequitur, don't you think? But, for the record (again), I consider myself a bit of a 'lefty' and yet I can't make head nor tail of it.
One more try: who (apart from you) is promoting "the idea that only Maori know how to advocate for ethical investiment and sustainability"?
"Corporations" that earn money that stays in the community.
Would you rather it went to VEOLA.
Would you rather it went to VEOLA.
Who as it happens also have shareholders. Only open to anyone.
Well, open to anyone with a bit of cash to spare – and here we are.
Perhaps each ‘side’ can teach us all a thing or two.
"Personally, I don't believe that the right has any such intention".
You may not have noticed but "the right" have been involved in creeping privatisation for some time.
Which hasn't need noticed, because it has been peacemeal. Allowed by the fragmentation and number of small entities.
Health is a prime example. So many sections have been contracted out and privatised that a significant proportion of DHB, budgets go on it. DHBs: “Nice little earners” for EY – Otaihanga Second Opinion (wordpress.com)
Had you noticed the dates in the article you linked? The point at which EY's profits skyrocketed was 2017 – virtually doubling every year until 2020 – god knows what they are now.
Labour government.
The Government does not have direct control over DHB, spending.
This model was set up under more right wing Governments in the past.
In case you haven't noticed, Labour is changing the DHB model.
Yes I had noticed that the no. 1 health priority for Andrew Little is apparently reorganizing the Health administration infrastructure.
Wouldn't be mine.
Still no explanation why contractor costs by DHBs were controlled under National and exploded under Labour.
Hint, the DHB governance model didn't change.
Also the DHBs were established under the 5th Labour Government (Helen Clark) – I wouldn't characterize that as a more right wing government – though perhaps you would.
https://www.health.govt.nz/new-zealand-health-system/key-health-sector-organisations-and-people/district-health-boards
If any organisation is created to look after 3 waters, it will still be ultimately accountable to the New Zealand Government – and my understanding of 3 waters is that it is intended to be directly accountable, but that is not yet clear. You are however being suitably cautious about the possibility of a lack of accountability – as I understand it the way in which some organisations in Auckland were created makes them largely unaccountable to the Auckland City Council, even though they are called Council Controlled Organisations – perhaps there should have been more consultation before that was forced on Auckland, but thankfully it seems there will be considerable consultation, and perhaps changes from both current proposals or at least current perceptions from some who are not quite aware of what they think they are opposing. Co-governance has of course been used before – Chris Finlayson speaks highly of it and apparently used it on a number of occasions. Was he and the government he was part of wrong?
I look forward to Mahuta explaining in plain language the exact checks and balances which will enable Government to control the 3 waters bureaucracy.
She has yet to do so.
And, quite frankly, with co-governance, I don't see how it would be possible, in any case.
Consultation over 3 waters has become a dirty word – with the abundant evidence that irrevocable decision are made, before the sham of consultation is carried out. I refer here to Mahuta telling outright lies to Councils that they could opt out, when she knew that Cabinet had already decided that would not be an option.
There's a huge trust deficit that the government has to overcome.
Bit hard to have a decent consultation and discussion, when any policy to try and fix the massive damage done by the right wing over the years, is greeted by a storm of lies and scare mongering bullshit.
Which you are blindly repeating.
Where were you when the Minister of Health in the National Government pushed to privatise sectors of the health system, to retire to a job with one of those private companies? You didn't give a stuff. But you are happy to repeat unsubstantiated rumours about "corruption behind three waters".
I have concerns about repeating the private sector Governance structures, which have been used for CCO's and SOE's, to distance them from democratic control. Deliberately so when the ACTiods set them up. Shows their real attitude to democracy.
However any genuine concerns and suggestions for improvement, have been lost in the bullshit.
Look, if you believe that, this has all been laid out – in crystal clear language with appropriate checks and balances, and government control specifically legislated for – then please link to it.
ATM – what I'm seeing is simply a 'trust us, we know what we're doing' message from Mahuta. And, that is what you are blindly repeating.
Those of us who are sceptical of 3 waters, are *not* reassured by this. And the scepticism is hardening into opposition.
The best way to convince people is to explain: exactly how it will work, and to answer the 'what if' concerns with information about how that contingency is provided for.
It doesn't matter if you think it's 'bullshit' – explain to people exactly how that concern will be mitigated.
There has been no attempt by Mahuta to do this.
"There has been no attempt by Nanaia Mahuta to do this" that has been reported in most of the media!
Subtle difference.
And no. It hasn’t been “all laid out”. Despite what has been said, consultation is ongoing.
Nania Mahuta has a huge platform and budget. Perhaps the $5M+ spent on the stupid attack ads could have been diverted to this purpose?
Then the right wing would have been all over it, about money wasted on "manufacturing consent".
What, like the money wasted on a taxpayer-funded propaganda campaign (which absolutely failed, adding insult to injury).
An actual information campaign to give people answers to the inevitable questions, would have been a much better use of the money (and much less liable to being attacked).
How do you alleviate "concerns" that are basically scare mongering?
Like the sudden “concern” by the right wing about privatisation. Something they have been quietly proceeding with in council’s for decades.
Concerns such as the ones I have, are buried under a storm of "concerns" most of which are unrelated to the need to deal with under-investment and council failures with 3 waters, such as accusations of nepotism and unsubstantiated gossip about when descissions were made.
Not unsubstantiated gossip
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/457660/three-waters-government-agreed-to-mandated-strategy-before-four-entities-announced
Cabinet decision made in June – about 2 weeks before the proposals were even announced to Councils (and the rest of us plebs)
Do you have any counter evidence that Mahuta did not lie to Councils about this? Just one of the reasons it is very difficult to trust her over this.
Belladonna wrote:
"And, quite frankly, with co-governance, I don't see how it would be possible, in any case."
Why?
50% iwi. Government have no control over iwi, or who they choose to appoint – (and nor should they) – however, it can't be possible for the Government to control the 3 waters bureaucracy in that scenario.
What do you mean/understand by "50% iwi"?
RRGs who appoint the board and set the overall direction will be 50% iwi.
No requirement for the board to consist of any elected representatives (and it seems unlikely that they would – since Manuta appears to believe that they will be appointed on the basis of professional skills and competency)
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/04/government-s-three-waters-co-governance-promise.html
What happens if:
I'm not really interested in the statement that any of the above 'can't happen'. It might be impossible to envisage now, but over time?
We've certainly seen both Councils and Iwi have failures of leadership. I decline to believe that there is something magic about water management which would prevent this from ever happening.
I'd certainly prefer to know the methodology for dealing with the outcomes of these scenarios in advance.
Would all of you be as enthusiastic if this was being proposed by a National/Act government?
If you believe/recognise that councils "have failures of leadership", why are you keen for them to retain control over water?
If you believe that iwi have failure over leadership, why are you so keen to give them control over water?
We can vote out poorly performing local government representatives. Neither we (nor the iwi themselves) have any mechanism to vote out poorly performing iwi leadership.
Councils that have failures of leadership can be replaced in a democratic society.That is the remedy against maladministration.
In the forthcoming local elections,there is a high probability that many will be removed with expedient demise,Mostly for incompetence and the failure that they have a duty of care for their locality (read fiscal responsibilty)
The high levels of debt being racked up by the incumbents are unsustainable.
3 Waters cost are over 1.5 billion without any forecast in efficiency, and only for the bureaucracy, and is all being funded on overseas debt.(treasury notes the high level of risk in the IT alone)
"Would all of you be as enthusiastic if this was being proposed by a National/Act government?"
Well. We know you would be.
But. They would be doing it intending to do an Air NZ.
Labour are trying to entrench anti-privatisation provisions. Which National and ACT, oppose!.
Any evidence for this? In any of the comments I've made on this or any other topic?
Or is it just a baseless slur, because you're unable to actually answer any of my arguments.
For reference, I think this is bad legislation from a democratic perspective, regardless of which party proposed it. I don’t believe that watering-down democracy for what seems like ‘good reasons’ is ever a good solution.
National and Act have announced that they would repeal 3 waters if elected. Why should they agree to entrench something they're planning on repealing?
“Evdence”. Parroting the right wing attack scare mongering.
I have been answering your arguments.
Why wouldn't NACT allow entrenching anti-privatisation provisions, if they were really against privatisation as they now claim? In case the bill gets passed. That doesn’t affect whether they retain or remove the bill.
Of course we all know that National approves of the creeping privatisation of council infrastructure and contracting out. Which is why they really oppose three waters.
Now. It would be good if we could have a sensible discussion about what form Governance of 3 waters would be. Duplicating the SOE or DHB model will be a serious mistake in my opinion, Without the scare mongering and fear of "Brown control".
Haven't parroted a single thing. If the left wing base assumption is that everyone who has concerns over this legislation has been captured by the right wing, then it's not surprising that concern is hardening into opposition.
Also, you haven't answered a single argument – just attacked me, and blindly defended Mahuta.
When you characterize any concern as "scaremongering", then it's not surprising that you can't engage effectively
I've provided legitimate questions and concerns and linked to actual reported evidence.
Zip from you.
Apart from baseless assertions about what National will do in the future (no link to actual announced policy – clearly you're a thought reader), and claims that because National privatized in the past, they're automatically going to do so in the future (the 4th Labour government's track record in this area is apparently not important to you).
There is a lot of consultation to go, and some issues may well change, but the objective of meeting water standards is unlikely to change. Consultation is desirable, and that happens more easily when it is clear the the objectives and obligations on government will not be walked away from, but consultation is often assisted by clear proposals. I do not agree that consultation has become a dirty word – there are a lot of other dirty words being spoken by those who see their job as blind opposition regardless of proposals. Consultation can also be informal – it is not always carried as in a public court trial, and positions can change – at least until legislation is passed.
As for the goal, i is easy to see examples of where cooperation and yes co-governance have worked. Look at the Wanganui River, which will never be totally clear due to the ground is passes through, but which now has secure minimum water flows that avoid many previous problems, and in addition we are able to use some water to generate electricity. Compare that to the situation in Canterbury where we now have a polluted water supply for a whole region, with health impairments for many and increased costs of water treatment for others – all due to arrogant dismissal and overriding of difficult decisions where the community was divided, but should have been enabled to make better decisions themselves than those forced on them. Look at the riber through Palmerston North, which despite some efforts in recent years, continues to be a disgrace – not swimmable for much of its length due to pollution from farming, housing developments and industry. Co-governance would have helped in enabling honesty in reporting what was happening, better knowledge of the way some local politicians funded campaigns by trading zoning agreements for funding, None of us a perfect, but we can influence others by expressing our opinions, and accepting that sometimes agreement will go through a number of stages as a result – small hurdles met with flexibility while keeping end goals in view may signal honest debate rather than a sham of consultation.
Tauranga poll is out – Newhub.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/06/national-party-s-sam-uffindell-cruising-to-victory-in-tauranga-by-election-newshub-nation-reid-research-poll-shows.html
Sumarized from above.
Uffindell – National 57%
Tinetti – Labour 22%
Cameron Luxton – 7.5% (which those of us who want to comment on politics would be grateful for: having Luxton, Luxton and Luxon in parliament – all for different parties, would be a bit much!)
Party vote (which isn't relevant in this instance) mirrors those results
Up to 1/3 either didn't know or wouldn't say (not uncommon – many people are reluctant to tell pollsters – and many of those won't vote, either) – the 'don't knows' rarely change the polling results substantially – it only really matters in 'too close to call' races.
Now, I know that not everyone here likes or believes in polling (i.e. thinks that polls don't matter, it's only the final result, which counts).
Setting that aside.
It's not surprising that National are out in front. Tauranga has been a National (or National-Lite aka Winston Peters) stronghold for decades.
But, what Labour should be taking close note of, are Tinetti's results.
Again, it's not surprising that she's dropped back from 38% in 2020. That was the Jacinda bounce – unprecedented, and not likely to ever occur again. But she's dropped to 22% from the 26% she had in 2017. Remember 2017 was against Bridges, a sitting MP, and pretty popular in Tauranga. Now she's standing against a relative unknown. I wouldn't expect her to win, but I would expect that Labour may be concerned over this evident softening of support. While by-elections rarely favour the sitting government, they also usually favour a current MP (albeit a List one) over a newcomer – just through name-recognition.
While the Green party vote is low at 3% – given that they're not standing a candidate in the by-election, I don't think they'll be too worried about this (out-of-sight = out-of-mind for most voters)
Link to the 2017 Tauranga results (just scroll up for 2020)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tauranga_(New_Zealand_electorate)#2017_election
The question has been asked several times recently whether Tauranga is a racist city. Apparently in this same poll only 51% of respondents disagreed.
Bluntly, I'd say a lot of Tauranga residents who vote National have a problem with Maori in general, and they certainly have a problem with any form of partnership as described by Te Tiriti. This progressive government's bold plan for redress is not popular with racists.
All those Kiwifruit orchards are built on stolen land but the owners and benefactors can't bring themselves to admit it.
I would far prefer Labour, and specifically Labour Maori, continue the drive for real change and take some hits rather than run scared of the Western BOP elite.
Yet for 38 of the last 41 years tauranga national voters have voted in a maori MP..
Useless Maori MPs. There is no way these Maori MPs advocated for Maori, they advocated instead for wealthy pakeha elite.
If around 60% of Tauranga consists of wealthy elite (whether pakeha or Maori) – we should be rolling it out as a template for the rest of the country. /sarc/
People, by and large, vote for the policies (and politicians) which they believe will benefit them.
MPs act for the best of all of their constituents – not just the ones who they think voted for them (or the ones which share their ethnicity). Peters, for example, did very, very well for the people of Tauranga while he was their local MP. To describe them as 'useless Maori' is one of the most profoundly racist statements I've read on TS.
You can't simply condemn electorates as racist because they don't (or won't) vote the way you'd like them to. Especially where they have a demonstrated history of voting for candidates regardless of ethnicity. Should we declare the people of Mt Albert racist because they have never elected a Maori MP?
After all, the majority of Maori don't vote for TPM – which would seem to be the party which would advocate best for Maori. Perhaps they're all less racist than you think.
The term, "useless Maori" is not mine, it is Willie Jackson's:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/willie-jackson-says-david-seymour-not-just-a-useless-maori-hes-a-dangerous-politician-too/XURFPMDWZ23D7AE5EULZ2OVMAA/
David Seymour of course having the same attributes as both Winston Peters and Simon Bridges with respect to advocating for Maori. Simply, they didn't.
The right and hard right in varying degrees hate the idea the public should support any culture and identity despite NZ's identity heavily relying on Te Ao Maori. It's who we are but ACT's vision of NZ is one of diluted homogeny, a plain South Pacific country indistinguishable from any other western country.
This government recognises the importance of supporting Maori and Maori culture, useless Maori do not.
Nope. If you intend to quote someone, you put it in quote marks, attribute it, and preferably give a source.
Own your prejudice.
Which, I see you have, doubling down on your blatant racism.
So, presumably the 18.2% of the Tauranga population who are Maori consist entirely of Uncle Toms?
Can you just not conceive that the majority of people in NZ – even those who live in benighted Tauranga – vote according to their political principles, rather than along racial lines?
Or can you only justify democracy when it aligns with your prejudices.
For all those who want a secure job, a potential career, to make a real difference peoples lives or a combination of all three nows your chance:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/mt-eden-prison-staff-crisis-102-vacancies-double-bunking-to-increase-nationally/RQZRSDVCOOXGYFTVMV4N3EVGOU/
'There is a shortage of more than 400 officers across all seniority levels nationally.
The shortage is especially pronounced at Mt Eden prison, home mostly to remand prisoners who have been arrested but are yet to face trial or be sentenced.
A source familiar with internal figures said there were 102 vacancies at Mt Eden as of the last week of May.'
Come on down, we'll probably take you especially at Mt Eden
https://www.seek.co.nz/Corrections-officer-jobs
Umbero knew his fascists.
Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged.
[…]
Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.
https://archive.ph/Q4nzW
https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1532723244616359936
https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1532776998501744641