Open mike 04/08/2022

57 comments on “Open mike 04/08/2022 ”

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1. observer 1

   4 August 2022 at 6:11 am

   It's the National party, as duplicitous as ever:

   Tax policy launched loudly … and then dumped quietly

   Andrea Vance's new book will need a new chapter. Willis and Luxon can't keep a story straight, from one interview to the next. Who's running this shambles?

   And if anyone needs reminding …

   Here's my commitment to you. When I become Prime Minister, I'll reverse Labour's tax grab, National will repeal each of these tax increases implemented by Labour.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/462810/christopher-luxon-s-state-of-the-nation-speech-government-needs-to-stop-its-tax-grab
   • Incognito 1.1

     4 August 2022 at 8:05 am

     Very simple B&W messaging, details are not important (aka noise). What people hear is: Labour = more tax, less money and National = less tax, more money.
     • observer 1.1.1

       4 August 2022 at 9:15 am

       That's not what people hear today. The Herald link above was clear, but here's another:

       National has quietly ditched its proposal to cut taxes in order to tackle the cost of living crisis.

       https://thespinoff.co.nz/live-updates/04-08-2022/national-quietly-parks-proposed-tax-policy

       What they're hearing is not "B & W messaging", but the opposite.
       • Jenny how to get there 1.1.1.1

         4 August 2022 at 9:45 am

         What is the opposite of "B & W messaging"?
         • Barfly 1.1.1.1.1

           4 August 2022 at 9:56 am

           Lol is it "W + B" ?
           • alwyn 1.1.1.1.1.1

             4 August 2022 at 3:20 pm

             The question reminds me of the answer given by the then President of the Collingwood Football Club in the AFL when the League demanded that every team had to have two jerseys (or guernseys in the local vernacular). One would be for home games and one for away matches. This did not go down very well with the Magpies who had been wearing their black and white vertically striped jersey since 1884.

             The then President announced that they would go along with the rule by wearing black and white stripes for home games and white and black stripes for the away ones.

             There was a later minor compromise made but unless you were a Collingwood follower you probably wouldn't have seen the difference in the two types.
             • joe90 …

               4 August 2022 at 3:35 pm

               My Australian cousin's a 'Pie'. I reckon he could tell the difference.
             • swordfish …

               4 August 2022 at 5:13 pm

               Older brother was a massive Collingwood fan (eclipsed only by his loyalty to Liverpool FC (UK football) & St George Dragons (NRL)).
       • Incognito 1.1.1.2

         4 August 2022 at 5:51 pm

         Willis said National had been "consistently clear that [we are] the party that stands for tax reduction".

         The difference between National and Labour "couldn't be starker", she told RNZ, with Labour "determined not to provide any permanent tax relief to New Zealanders, preferring a band-aid payment".

         https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/472216/labour-and-national-go-tit-for-tat-over-tax

         I hear a B&W message, consistently.
         • Craig H 1.1.1.2.1

           4 August 2022 at 10:33 pm

           Agree, and Labour have regularly made the same distinction but in terms of more services and support for those on lower incomes i.e. what the taxation pays for.
2. Robert Guyton 2

   4 August 2022 at 6:21 am

   What a moment it must have been, when James Lovelock realised this:

   "Earth, in contrast, was a living system that worked to maintain the atmosphere in violent disequilibrium with the planet’s geology. This, Lovelock realised, was the signature of life that could be highly useful as we searched for other living planets.", having first discovered this:

   "Lovelock was at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California, when the first analyses of the Martian and Venusian atmospheres were received. He realised immediately that they were very different from Earth’s atmosphere, in that they were at equilibrium with the planet’s geology. Venus and Mars, he concluded, were dead planets."

   https://theconversation.com/inspiration-mentor-and-a-truly-great-man-tim-flannery-farewells-scientist-james-lovelock-who-has-returned-to-gaia-at-103-187846

   Tim Flannery rated him!
   “James Lovelock was an inspiration and a mentor, a truly great man the likes of whom we shall not see again. Today, science is compartmentalised, collaborative, regulated and peer-reviewed in ways that do not sit well with the maverick. And yet there is a crying need for such people, especially those able to take the holistic view, as risky and uncertain as that sometimes is.”
   • gsays 2.1

     4 August 2022 at 5:49 pm

     Lovelock is a great thinker and presented a great environmental argument for nuclear.

     He opined that our concern with nuclear is the waste. Contrast that with gas/coal emissions that we ignore but will kill you immediately.

     He reckoned he would happily store the waste (appropriately contained) from his lifetime use of nuclear energy on his veranda.
     • weka 2.1.1

       4 August 2022 at 10:55 pm

       hard to see how given the longevity of the waste. What happens to it if civilisation fails and it can't be looked after?

       There's also the issue of plant failure like Fukushima. You'd be a brave politician or MP to consider nuclear generation in the Shakey Isles.

       It's not a choice between nuclear and coal/gas. It's a choice between nuclear and sustainable/resilient.
       • gsays 2.1.1.1

         5 August 2022 at 4:02 pm

         TBF I have no argument with you about a pivot to severely less energy dense life (sustainable).

         I think I heard this 20 or years ago. The idea reminds me of the hydro dam/environment tension from back in the day. Nature took a back seat so we could keep biggering. Ironically, now we claim our renewable energy supply to be green.
         • weka 2.1.1.1.1

           5 August 2022 at 5:53 pm

           I'm aware of that irony too, and think about it fair deal. We are fortunate that Aramoana smelter and other projects that were going to be powered by the Clyde dam didn't go ahead. But the idea that we can keep flooding rivers has run it's course thankfully. Which brings us neatly to the limits of nature. At some point we might realise that working with nature enables us to meet our needs and create sustainable human communities. Hopefully soon.
   • Jenny how to get there 2.2

     5 August 2022 at 10:34 am

     Mystical spirit thinking ends up in techno-nightmare.

     "….he [Lovelock] would happily store the waste (appropriately contained) from his lifetime use of nuclear energy on his veranda." gsays

     Then what?

     NUCLEAR POWER IS THE ONLY GREEN SOLUTION

     James Lovelock – civilisation is in imminent danger. Published in The Independent, 24 May 2004.

     ….By all means, let us use the small input from renewables sensibly, but only one immediately available source does not cause global warming and that is nuclear energy.

     http://www.jameslovelock.org/nuclear-power-is-the-only-green-solution/

     Rather than take the advice of a whacky pseudo greeny mysticist to go nuclear we would be better served to follow the science.

     A Plan to Power 100 Percent of the Planet with Renewables

     Wind, water and solar technologies can provide 100 percent of the world's energy, eliminating all fossil fuels. Here's how

     By Mark Z. Jacobson, Mark A. Delucchi Scientific American, November 1, 2009

     In December leaders from around the world will meet in Copenhagen to try to agree on cutting back greenhouse gas emissions for decades to come. The most effective step to implement that goal would be a massive shift away from fossil fuels to clean, renewable energy sources. If leaders can have confidence that such a transformation is possible, they might commit to an historic agreement. We think they can.

     ….. a 2009 Stanford University study ranked energy systems according to their impacts on global warming, pollution, water supply, land use, wildlife and other concerns. The very best options were wind, solar, geothermal, tidal and hydroelectric power—all of which are driven by wind, water or sunlight (referred to as WWS). Nuclear power, coal with carbon capture, and ethanol were all poorer options,….

     …..All that is missing is the political will.

     https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-path-to-sustainable-energy-by-2030/
3. PsyclingLeft.Always 3

   4 August 2022 at 7:26 am

   A new seagrass restoration project is being trialed with the hope it can then create an effective way to plant more of it around Aotearoa and help fight climate change.

   Seagrasses account for about 10% of the carbon our oceans store but only cover zero point two percent of the seafloor, it also absorbs carbon 27 times faster than forests on land.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/afternoons/audio/2018851652/seagrass-restoration-project-aimed-at-fighting-climate-change

   Left to its own devices much of the farmland in Aotearoa would, over time, return to native forest. First the pioneer plants would appear – for example kānuka, manuka, karamū, māhoe. Able to deal with drier, hotter conditions in open areas, eventually they would provide the cover for the next round of trees to move in – maybe pūriri, rimu, rātā, tōtara. Brought by seeds dispersed by wind or bird, maybe from native bush nearby.

   But this takes time. A lot of time.

   Across three sites the AUT Living Laboratory project are investigating different ways of fast-forwarding this natural plant succession to get to the later, bigger trees earlier.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ourchangingworld/audio/2018851659/the-living-laboratories-project

   In the first link ( which I had the good fortune to hear on Radio ! ) Cawthron Institute lead scientist for this project, Dana Clark talks to Jesse.
4. joe90 4

   4 August 2022 at 9:03 am

   Lotsa money in gay frogs, penis pills and Hillary's plan to chemically castrate Trump voters with chemtrails.

   Wow. Sandy Hook parents' lawyer is revealing that Alex Jones' lawyers sent him the contents of Jones' phone BY MISTAKE.

   "12 days ago, your attorneys messed up and sent me a digital copy of every text" Jones has sent for years.

   "You know what perjury is?" the lawyer asks.

   — Ben Collins (@oneunderscore__) August 3, 2022

   The phone documents also appeared to reveal Infowars’ long-hidden finances.

   Bankston outlined several days in 2018 in which Infowars made over $800,000 per day. Jones did not dispute the veracity of the emails or the dollar figures, but claimed some of their higher-profit days came during the week of CPAC, the conservative conference.

   https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/alex-jones-lawyers-accidentally-leak-years-emails-infowars-financial-d-rcna41378
   • weka 4.1

     4 August 2022 at 9:16 am

     The video. Would love to have seen his lawyer’s face.

     The incredible moment where Alex Jones is informed that his own lawyer accidentally sent a digital copy of his entire phone to the Sandy Hook parents' lawyer, thereby proving that he perjured himself.

     h/t @Acynpic.twitter.com/ve4iGbwLM8

     — Brian Tyler Cohen (@briantylercohen) August 3, 2022
     • joe90 4.1.1

       4 August 2022 at 9:26 am

       Jones' lawyer is either incompetent, or he really doesn't like his client.

       BANKSTON: Did you know 12 days ago your attorney’s messed up and sent me an entire digital copy of your entire cell phone with every text message you’ve sent for the past 2 years? And when informed did not take any steps to identify it as privilege?

       — Sebastian Murdock (@SebastianMurdoc) August 3, 2022

       And then there's this.

       Sandy Hook parents' lawyer on a hot mic during a recess: "You know what nobody's thought about yet? What happens when that phone goes to law enforcement."

       — Ben Collins (@oneunderscore__) August 3, 2022

       The January 6th House committee is preparing to request the trove of Alex Jones’s text messages and emails revealed Wednesday in a defamation lawsuit filed by victims of the Sandy Hook massacre, Rolling Stone has learned.

       On Wednesday, Sandy Hook victims’ attorney Mark Bankston told Jones that his attorney had mistakenly sent Bankston three years worth of the conspiracy theorist’s emails and text messages copied from his phone.

       Now — a source familiar with the matter and another person briefed on it tell Rolling Stone — the January 6th committee is preparing to request that data from the plaintiff attorneys in order to aid its investigation of the insurrection. These internal deliberations among the committee, which is probing former President Donald Trump’s role in causing the deadly Jan. 6 Capitol riot, began within minutes of the lawyer’s revelation being heard on the trial’s livestream on Wednesday afternoon.

       https://archive.ph/dEM7U (rollingstone)
       • Belladonna 4.1.1.1

         4 August 2022 at 9:38 am

         Not that I think that Jones is a nice person – but he really does have a case against his lawyer for malpractice.
         • Bearded Git 4.1.1.1.1

           4 August 2022 at 9:51 am

           Alex Jones is an American conservative, alt-right, and far-right radio show host and prominent conspiracy theorist.

           "In the years following the [Sandy Hook] incident, Mr Jones repeatedly claimed that the shooting was a ploy to push gun control measures and claimed without evidence that it had been staged by actors and the media."

           No sympathy here…he deserves a crap lawyer.

           https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-62415376
           • weka 4.1.1.1.1.1

             4 August 2022 at 9:59 am

             other people don't though if this is negligence.
             • Bearded Git …

               4 August 2022 at 11:40 am

               Agreed…I doubt if his lawyer will have people queueing up after this.
       • Jenny how to get there 4.1.1.2

         4 August 2022 at 10:34 am

         Jones used the same tactics to deny evidence of massacres committed by Assad regime revealed by the White Helmets.

         The same claims of fraud of staged rescues of using crisis actors to fake injuries the whole gamut of the fascist big lie tactic.

         Good on the parents of the children killed at Sandy Hook for taking this modern Goebbels to court.

         Unfortunately, there is as yet no legal mechanism where the victims of Assad genocide and war crimes can file charges in court against Alex Jones and the all the other liars and genocide enablers and war crime deniers to court.

         However; To all you deniers and enablers of war crimes and genocide in Syria and Ukraine, take it from me, Alex Jones trial and conviction, is a fair warning to all of you, that a day of reckoning for you, and justice for all the victims of your lies will come eventually.

         For the Crime of killing the truth;

         https://thesyriacampaign.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/KillingtheTruth.pdf

         For the crime of preying on the gullible and spreading your fascist infection in Left forums;

         ….this series further looks at the methods and effectiveness of the red-brown and fascistic media ecosystem in infiltrating leftist spheres of influence. This will perhaps be the most controversial part of the series and the hardest to explain, which makes its message all the more important.

         https://www.radicalrightanalysis.com/2020/09/25/1-6-2/

         How Trolls and Conspiracy Theorists Spun the Syrian War

         Digital defenders helped the Assad government cover up its crimes.

         Among Syrian President Bashar al-Assad’s most reliable allies are the armies of Twitter bots, trolls, and digital defenders who have been quick to spread confusion in the wake of his government’s atrocities. Russia has often been at the center of this disinformation campaign…..

         ……After the Syrian government used chemical weapons in northwest Syria in April 2017, pro-regime news sources accused the “Al Qaeda–affiliated White Helmets” of creating a false-flag attack. The theory was amplified by Russian media and spread online with the hashtag #SyriaHoax. American alt-right figures, who opposed President Donald Trump’s military response to the attack, ran with the fact-free version of events. Infowars called the White Helmets “an al-Qaeda affiliated group funded by George Soros and the British government.” That lie was shared on Twitter by Infowars founder Alex Jones and conspiracy theorist Mike Cernovich and retweeted thousands of times.

         https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/06/trolls-conspiracy-theorists-assad-syria/
   • joe90 4.2

     4 August 2022 at 10:09 am

     It gets better.

     Alex Jones' ex-wife here, and I'm going to subpoena this data! Won a jury, lost my kids for blowing the whistle on infowars. Subpoena request will go out t o d a y.https://t.co/uu90cvQuOl

     — Kelly Jones (@RealKellyJones) August 3, 2022
5. Herodotus 5

   4 August 2022 at 10:42 am

   https://theconversation.com/amp/mental-health-wins-record-funding-in-new-zealands-first-well-being-budget-118047
   thank you to the NZ govt after a 3 year wait we have been informed that 1 member has been taken off the waiting list and we will have to find other options. Well if you are taken of a list what other options are there ??

   So children are going undiagnosed, then as a consequence miss out on support like reader/writers, extra time, use of computers and other medical and education assistance there is. Thank you Do Litlle so you allocated some money appeared on your platform BUT this govt has totally FAILED again. Go back to your union job (the one that you are suppose to support workers- those workers who you are currently screwing) you are just someone taking space no better than a cardboard cutout in this government and destroying the future of Kiwis. This govt is SO OUT of touch with reality- and I add so are many who feature here🤬
   • Patricia Bremner 5.1

     4 August 2022 at 12:40 pm

     Our son has had a similar thing occur in QLD Australia. His cousin has had a lung operation delayed x4 and the date moved out and told a private NSW hospital, when there is room. More the pandemic than incompetence imo. It is easy to blame the minister, harder to deal with covid impacts.
     • Herodotus 5.1.1

       4 August 2022 at 1:02 pm

       Blame the minister this commitment was made well before anyone new the existence of COVID. So now we have to just throw a cohort of those currently at school into the rubbish bin ?? That covers new entrance to yr 13.
       when depts bid for money during the budget process must they and the ministers/govt also have some understanding that what is being asked for can be delivered. To me like the COVID 75k testing capabilities no one asked the obvious. So in that case yes it IS the minister/a at fault. They MUST be able to deliver, and with this govt once the announcement has been made there appears no care to fulfil.
6. Ad 6

   4 August 2022 at 11:05 am

   So as of yesterday Ngai Tahu can now appoint 2 to Environment Canterbury.

   Anyone notice the race war break out yet?
   • Muttonbird 6.1

     4 August 2022 at 11:12 am

     This is just a continuation of existing policy, is it not?
   • Belladonna 6.2

     4 August 2022 at 11:35 am

     National is calling it 'undemocratic' – though haven't seen a commitment to roll it back, when they are next in government (TBH – I haven't gone looking….).

     https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/472178/new-law-gives-ngai-tahu-right-to-appoint-two-environment-canterbury-councillors
     • alwyn 6.2.1

       4 August 2022 at 3:31 pm

       Well according to Paul Goldsmith

       "He said it would create a precedent, and promised National would repeal the law if it won the next election."

       https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/129454384/historic-moment-as-parliament-votes-to-allow-ngi-tahu-to-choose-environment-canterbury-appointees

       One does wonder how, given the enormous scope of Ngai Tahu investments in the Canterbury area, the representatives can possibly vote on anything if they observe the conflict of interest rules properly.

       By the way. Did you even read the story you linked to? This statement was also quoted in the last line of that link.
       • arkie 6.2.1.1

         4 August 2022 at 3:52 pm

         the enormous scope of Ngai Tahu investments in the Canterbury area

         Do you happen to know the extent of this investment and how it compares with other institutional investments across Canterbury?

         Others have run this line specifically regarding dairy farming; they were incorrect, Chinese investment in Canterbury dairy farms dwarfs that of tangata whenua.
       • Belladonna 6.2.1.2

         4 August 2022 at 4:41 pm

         Guess I missed the quote. I'd seen the 'opposed' bit, but my eye must have skipped across the promise to repeal.
       • Incognito 6.2.1.3

         4 August 2022 at 7:05 pm

         Paora Goldsmith got skewered at QT about this a couple of days ago (HT Robert Guyton). For example:

         Hon KIRITAPU ALLAN: I'll get this House to cast our minds all the way back to the good old years of 2015, 2016, when the Rt Hon John Key was at the helm. You'll remember that it was that then National Government that stewarded through the Environment Canterbury (Transitional Governance Arrangements) Bill. That bill, if this House will recall, did one of two things. First, it ensured that there were democratic representatives elected to Environment Canterbury (ECan). Secondly, it ensured that Ngāi Tahu retained the right and the obligation to appoint two members to that entity. To quote, actually, a good friend of this House, the Hon Scott Simpson, "I think that probably one of the great hallmarks of this time"—

         https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/HansS_20220802_051360000/11-question-no-11-justice

         But there are many references in that transcript to the previous National Government and how they set this up in the first place.
   • Patricia Bremner 6.3

     4 August 2022 at 12:42 pm

     No Bloody amazing!! All quiet lol.
   • LibertyBelle 6.4

     4 August 2022 at 4:41 pm

     I'm not sure anyone predicted a 'race war', did they? Appointing people purely on the basis of an accident of birth would seem to a silly policy, rather than anything more sinister.
     • Ad 6.4.1

       4 August 2022 at 8:11 pm

       You've missed the Chris Trotter and Martyn Bradbury columns then.
       • LibertyBelle 6.4.1.1

         4 August 2022 at 8:37 pm

         I must have.
7. Muttonbird 7

   4 August 2022 at 11:20 am

   Anyone going to the "FARC off Brian" counter protests this weekend?

   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/08/brain-tamaki-s-freedoms-and-rights-coalition-auckland-protest-will-be-met-with-farc-off-brian-counter-protest.html
   • Ad 7.1

     4 August 2022 at 11:44 am

     Nope putting up election hoardings as usual.
8. Jenny how to get there 8

   4 August 2022 at 12:59 pm

   “Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster."
   Nietzsche

   https://chng.it/q2Dzz2fF5d

   President Zelensky needs to heed the warning given by Nietzsche
   • Rosemary McDonald 8.1

     4 August 2022 at 1:36 pm

     “Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster."
     Nietzsche

     I honestly thought you were replying to Muttonbird @ 7.

     Fits.
     • swordfish 8.1.1

       4 August 2022 at 5:44 pm

       .

       Certainly a message that dogmatic Woke Cultists urgently need to hear (but, of course, their inherent narcissism, self-righteous delusions of grandeur & love of indiscriminately wielding power over others renders them deaf to all critique)..

       Critical Theory's crude, distorted, low-resolution view of the world guaranteed to engender massive new forms of social in-justice (& to further entrench already existing ones).
     • Jenny how to get there 8.1.2

       4 August 2022 at 5:56 pm

       Yes.
9. SPC 9

   4 August 2022 at 1:26 pm

   Luxon withdraws commitment to increase in health spending to match inflation.

   Willis says no decision has been made on whether this will be done.

   So did Luxon speak without knowledge of the processes for making these decisions?

   Has anyone noted that with an aging population and the cost of pandemic management (medical impact of deferred treatments) would mean merely matching inflation costs would result in a decline in our health system (and a complete inability to deal with staff shortages and a growing waiting list).
10. SPC 10

    4 August 2022 at 1:35 pm

    As for National's missing in action, but still loud in the media, they are no better.

    Paula for my benefit Training Incentive Allowance by not for women after me Bennett – she says she would have given no one the cost of living increase but noted those on benefits had lower income than those getting the money.

    She also would not have given the real increase of benefit levels made 1 April 2022 or the power income supplement either …

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/08/unions-lash-out-at-christopher-luxon-after-he-backtracks-on-health-funding-promise.html
11. joe90 11

    4 August 2022 at 3:08 pm

    And it's pissed Russian squadies by a length

    /

    UNITED NATIONS (AP) — The U.N. nuclear chief warned that Europe’s largest nuclear power plant in Ukraine “is completely out of control” and issued an urgent plea to Russia and Ukraine to quickly allow experts to visit the sprawling complex to stabilize the situation and avoid a nuclear accident.

    Rafael Grossi, director general of the International Atomic Energy Agency, said in an interview Tuesday with The Associated Press that the situation is getting more perilous every day at the Zaporizhzhia plant in the southeastern city of Enerhodar, which Russian troops seized in early March, soon after their Feb. 24. invasion of Ukraine.

    “Every principle of nuclear safety has been violated” at the plant, he said. “What is at stake is extremely serious and extremely grave and dangerous.”

    https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-science-accidents-d2e0077af104f2692b76f737c58e1984
12. Jenny how to get there 12

    4 August 2022 at 3:10 pm

    Useful idiots are found on every rung of the political ladder.

    Jeremy 'Peace in our time' Corbyn

    (Appeaser is such an ugly word)

    “I’d be very surprised if Corbyn has actually spoken to Ukrainians or even knows any…."

    Oleksandra Povoroznyk

    What Ukrainians Think About Jeremy Corbyn's Ukraine Interview

    Chris York, Byline Times, 3 August 2022

    “A lot of people in the West are denying Ukraine any sort of agency by claiming we’re constantly being manipulated by NATO or saying it’s a US proxy war and the West is forcing us to fight. None of these people are actually paying attention to what we’re actually saying. It’s sad and annoying.”….

    “If you’re willing to strike a peace deal with Russia now at the cost of Ukraine’s territorial integrity, you should think about what kind of security system you’ll end up with: a system that rewards colonial conquest, genocide and blackmailing of the rest of the world with famine and nuclear war,”….

    ….“We didn’t attack anyone – we are defending our homes, land and sovereignty,” Natalia Haidai, a Russian-speaking Ukrainian from Bucha, told Byline Times. “[Corbyn’s] argument is that Ukrainians should surrender or be unable to defend themselves and be literally wiped out. I thought he was for solidarity for oppressed people?

    https://bylinetimes.com/2022/08/03/what-ukrainians-think-about-jeremy-corbyns-ukraine-interview/?
    • Jenny how to get there 12.1

      4 August 2022 at 4:08 pm

      Putin's Poodle

      Jeremy Corbyn in his statement on Ukraine, repeatedly refers to Ukraine as, "the Ukraine" as if Ukraine was a region, not a country.

      (As in, 'in the Waikato'. As opposed to 'in New Zealand'. For instance if someone told you a man was found, 'in the Waikato', instead of, 'in Waikato', you could be excused for thinking that they were found in the river, (not the region.)

      Whether he did it consciously, or unconsciously, Ukrainians found Corbyn's referring to their country as a region offensive and insulting.

      Kathryn Graber explains why.

      It’s ‘Ukraine,’ not ‘the Ukraine’ – here’s why

      The Conversation: March 10, 2022 2.18am NZDT

      For most of the 20th century, English speakers referred to “the Ukraine,” following Soviet practice. That’s not the case now. Ukraine’s official name in English does not include “the,” and for good reason.

      Ambassadors, commentators and historians have tried to explain the change, but not everyone has gotten the message.

      So let me try. I’m a linguistic anthropologist and an expert on language politics in Russia. I’m also bilingual in Russian and English, so I understand the subtleties of the distinction.

      What is at stake? Nothing less than the political sovereignty of Ukraine…..

      …..It might seem innocent, but it’s not.

      …..To a Ukrainian worried about the nation-state’s territorial integrity, that little word “the” might suggest that the speaker does not much care whether Ukraine is an independent state. Like it or not, and intentionally or not, the language a person uses reflects their political positions, including their position on Ukraine’s territorial sovereignty.

      …..So, does Putin say na Ukraine – “in the Ukraine” [like Corbyn]– or v Ukraine (“in Ukraine”)? [like everyone else]….

      …. he [Putin] says “na Ukraine” in Russian throughout his addresses.

      …..make no mistake: Putin is arguing that Ukraine’s sovereignty is a historical fiction, and he is underscoring his point by referring to events happening “na,” not “v,” Ukraine. English speakers don’t have to follow him by saying “the.”

      https://theconversation.com/its-ukraine-not-the-ukraine-heres-why-178748

      My clarifications in Parenthese […] J.
      • mikesh 12.1.1

        5 August 2022 at 12:17 am

        Jeremy Corbyn in his statement on Ukraine, repeatedly refers to Ukraine as, "the Ukraine" as if Ukraine was a region, not a country.

        Oh, what a hideous crime! He should tried as a war criminal when the war is over, (if that day ever comes).
13. aj 13

    4 August 2022 at 3:15 pm

    David Parker takes down Willis in QT today. Classy.

    https://ondemand.parliament.nz/parliament-tv-on-demand/?itemId=227116
    • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 13.1

      4 August 2022 at 3:49 pm

      I also liked Hipkin's quick quip about bowing to Bishop's superior knowledge of scams!

      Though it gave the speaker a bit of trouble sorting it all out.
    • Anne 13.2

      4 August 2022 at 7:51 pm

      I love the way he acts out the role of the village idiot when he is widely believed to be the brightest bulb in parliament.
14. CS 14

    4 August 2022 at 8:01 pm

    Your prejudice is so obvious that it’s blinding

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
    
    • weka 14.1

      4 August 2022 at 8:14 pm

      I’ve explained that the policy requires you to supply evidence for claims. If you don’t want to work within the kaupapa of the site, I will just ban you. Your choice.

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