Open mike 04/11/2023

68 comments on “Open mike 04/11/2023 ”

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1. Joe90 1

   4 November 2023 at 6:33 am

   Marvelous.

   Watershitdown

   @watershitdown

   Let's do this NZ !

   

   https://twitter.com/watershitdown/status/1720277608494194960
   • bwaghorn 1.1

     4 November 2023 at 7:01 am

     Winston's so excited all 6 of his nipples are tingling!!
2. Barfly 2

   4 November 2023 at 7:43 am

   Huey, Dewey and Loius?

   The three Stooges?

   I prefer

   Rimmer, Baldric and Methusallah
   • Mike the Lefty 2.1

     4 November 2023 at 9:57 am

     They are certainly not the Three Wise Men.
3. Dennis Frank 3

   4 November 2023 at 8:05 am

   Winston is now impatient, you can sense his urge to take control of the process:

   Peters said NZ First wanted negotiations to be conducted with urgency. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nz-election-final-result-live-updates-special-votes-counted-nationals-christopher-luxon-to-negotiate-with-act-and-winston-peters/S56WOQ3QUJE57IZAKJTFUDFZUE/

   “What can we agree on … we can’t all get what we want, we have to get a sound much much better government underway,” Peters told the Platform.

   The NZ First leader said the most useful thing was for National, Act and NZ First to all get in the room together as opposed to having separate conversations. “This is not my first negotiation, I’m only negotiating with one side, so to speak, not two and that’s why we can expedite this.”

   Act leader David Seymour said he hoped the new government could be finalised within a “matter of days” or within a week.

   Luxon may not be up to that much speed but the momentum lies beyond him, & Monday will be when he realises his canoe has entered the rapids. If his agenda for next week is already set, he may have to flex it to accommodate the urgency evident in the attitudes of the other two key players. If he doesn't flex, seems insufficiently in tune, the other two may issue irritated opinions to the media…
4. Bearded Git 4

   4 November 2023 at 8:09 am

   Left 41.6 Right 46.7. 55 seats versus 60 seats (excluding NZF).

   Only 5.1% in it. If Seymour, Luxon and Bishop had said nothing in the media about Winston, NZF would have fallen below 5% instead of getting 6.08.

   Small margins in the end.
   • Adrian Thornton 4.1

     4 November 2023 at 11:09 am

     "Left 41.6 Right 46.7. 55 seats versus 60 seats (excluding NZF)"

     Correction…Centre 41.6 Right 46.55 seats.

     There is no meaningful Left Wing political party in New Zealand that I know of.
     • Dennis Frank 4.1.1

       4 November 2023 at 11:55 am

       There is no meaningful Left Wing political party in New Zealand that I know of.

       Ok, I'll bite. How would you know? There's no standard list of criteria for anyone to use to detect meaning in any political party, let alone a leftist one.

       Philosophers write books about meaning & I own several, even try to read one every now & then (not easy). Essaying the meaning of a political party seems a subjective exercise. The Greens mean a political party to represent the Green movement, for instance, yet all that means to me is that simulations are effective in politics.
       • Ed1 4.1.1.1

         4 November 2023 at 4:48 pm

         I agree – words mean what I intend them to mean, and of course right-bloggers will say that the National Party is solidly Centre-Right, Labour is slightly left, and the Green Party is economically far left, but also have strange views about climate change. Alternatively some left bloggers will see National as far right, Labour nearly as far right, and The Greens as slightly left. See it all here, where you can compare their views about New Zealand with those of other countries :

         The political compass : https://www.politicalcompass.org/nz2023

         Not as often talked about, it introduces a authoritarian / libertarian axis, which surprisingly puts ACT at about the same level as the Greens – how that can be when Seymour was practically the only person to speak for the party for nearly all of the last three years is beyond my comprehension – Winston First being more authoritarian than National is a given on the same grounds. The ability for their to make binding "Captains Calls" puts them at least part way up there with National. I suspect ACT being seen as "Libertarian" comes from their tolerance for people saying anything they want – whether spouting lies and propaganda is the same meaning of "Freedom" as measured at

         https://wisevoter.com/country-rankings/freedom-index-by-country/

         is a moot point but those lies do seem to have distorted government support from some parts of Auckland that possibly most benefitted from the Covid precautions that arguably saved about 20,000 lives compared with the response of the USA (yes look at how "Free" that country is). If say 5000 people had died in South Auckland, would more of them have voted Labour?
   • Tony 4.2

     4 November 2023 at 11:14 am

     Bearded git credits Seymour Luxon and Bishop for taking W Peters from below 5% to 6.8%. I credit Labour for his rise. 46.7% of the Wellington protesters were labour supporters, they received no representation there and made it impossible for them to vote labour again, no representation = no vote, Labour lost about 47% of the vote from the last election, coincidence or a simple explanation for their loss. It really didn't help calling them a River of filth, anti vax scum, useful idiots, morons, f#ckwits etc, Labour has lost those voters and they won't return, remember this people, no representation = no vote! Remind me of the one Politician who bothered going and listening to the Wellington River of filth? That's where the 6.8% came from.
     • Incognito 4.2.1

       4 November 2023 at 11:24 am

       Yup, Peters and NZF mopped up, soaked in, and swallowed the ‘river of filth’, which was no more than a little trickle among the sea of genuine discontent in and of this protest but which became a darker and putrid undercurrent of filth and hate from the sewers of society.

       That’s where a fraction of the 6.8% came from.
       • Tony 4.2.1.1

         4 November 2023 at 12:07 pm

         incognito obviously hasn’t seen "River of freedom" I suggest you shut up watch it and educate yourself as to who and why they were there. 46,7% is no fraction and those 46.7% represented hundreds of thousands of other labour voters who will never vote labour again. As I say, no representation = no vote.
         • Incognito 4.2.1.1.1

           4 November 2023 at 12:56 pm

           I suggest that you hold your fire till you’ve found your reading glasses and re-read my comment. In any case, your maths is a little off with respect to the 6.8% for NZF in GE-2023.
           • Tony 4.2.1.1.1.1

             4 November 2023 at 1:42 pm

             incognito, I know exactly what your ugly words meant, you speak in ignorance, your choice of words tells me that, as I suggested, go watch "River of Freedom" which will become NZs most important documentary ever, then you can comment on what went down in Wellington instead of lazily relying on biased media reports. Hundreds of thousands of kiwis supported them and their efforts to be heard! Special thanks must go to Trevor Mallard for his efforts in losing supporters.

             [Before you hijack this thread even further, you must provide evidence to support the claim that you’ve made twice now, which is that 46.7% of the Wellington protesters were labour supporters.

             Once you’ve done this we can proceed with correcting your maths and other logical flaws.

             You’re in Pre-Mod, so that weka and I can monitor your muddying comments before they appear on the site – Incognito]
             • Red Blooded One …

               4 November 2023 at 1:57 pm

               Is there any irony in you lecturing about "biased media reports" yet calling River of Freedom potentially NZs most important documentary ever? A friend of mine was tricked into going to it and her feedback on it was that it was a very sanitised version of events and completely biased. The person who tricked my friend into seeing the movie also talks of White Hats coming to punish "Vaccine Enablers" and celebrates that Jacinda Ardern is currently locked up in Gauntanamo Bay. Strange times indeed.
             • Incognito …

               4 November 2023 at 2:25 pm

               Mod note
             • Tony …

               4 November 2023 at 3:49 pm

               Humble apologies for getting the point wrong, it should read 6,08%. Curia Market Research did the polling, can't find a link, I observe lots of people talking numbers without links. what other logical flaws did I state?

               [Not so fast. You assert all sorts of things, make claims of fact, tell people to shut up, and provide no supporting evidence. In addition, your logic is deeply flawed. Taken together, you’re muddying the waters and not contributing to sound constructive debate.

               Don’t tell me what others are supposedly doing here or not. Lift your game and back up your claims. And stop wasting other people’s and my time here. I’ll give you one more chance – Incognito]
               • Incognito …

                 4 November 2023 at 6:00 pm

                 Mod note
         • weka 4.2.1.1.2

           4 November 2023 at 1:15 pm

           what's the 46.7 % in reference to?
           • Tony 4.2.1.1.2.1

             4 November 2023 at 1:26 pm

             Weka, labour party supporters numbered 46.7% of the Wellington protesters and the labour party vote dropped 47% from 2020, I see a correlation in those numbers, I also mentioned it wasn't helpful to vilify them, incognito tries to muddy the waters with ugly words without substance, he is spewing more ignorant hate which won't bring many back home to the labour party fold.
             • bwaghorn …

               4 November 2023 at 1:57 pm

               Where any of those 46% abusing mask wearers , throwing figurative and literal shit at police and damaging public property?
             • Louis …

               4 November 2023 at 8:01 pm

               "labour party supporters numbered 46.7% of the Wellington protesters" Where did you get that from? Citation please.
           • Belladonna 4.2.1.1.2.2

             4 November 2023 at 8:45 pm

             I don't know where the 46.7% came from.
             There was a survey done by Curia over past voting patterns of people at the protest. Which found nearly 30% voted Labour and 16% voted Green in 2020.

             Unsurprisingly, there were relatively higher numbers of voters for more fringe parties (not calling Labour or GP fringe – but rather Advance NZ, etc.)

             https://thespinoff.co.nz/live-updates/21-02-2022/a-third-of-parliament-protesters-backed-labour-at-2020-election
         • observer 4.2.1.1.3

           4 November 2023 at 2:01 pm

           no representation = no vote.

           Repeating a slogan doesn't make it meaningful.

           We just had an election. Every protester had a vote. "NZ Loyal" got 1%, the other protest parties (Brian Tamaki, Leighton Baker etc) got almost nothing.

           There has been plenty of polling in 2023 on policy priorities for the voters. They include cost of living, health, crime, climate change, housing, and more. Just one example:

           22nd Ipsos New Zealand Issues Monitor – October 2023 | Ipsos

           The issues relating to the occupation (mandates, anti-vax, put Ministers on trial) do not register at all. It was not an election issue for the NZ public, outside the fringe.
     • SPC 4.2.2

       4 November 2023 at 2:31 pm

       Labour went to 37% in 2017 because of a decline in the Greens (2014 10.7% to 6.2%)

       It was under 33% otherwise.

       To get there from the 25% of 2014 and 27.5% of 2011 there was the Jacinda Ardern bump, but even so Labour needed NZF to obtain a majority.

       The voters who took Labour from 37% to 50% in 2020 were centrists who had been voting National or NZF.

       Deriving a decline in Labour voters from that figure is misleading.

       With Greens back to where they were (1% higher than 2014) and NZF back in the mix of course Labour would come back to where they were in 2017 – and that was barely 33%

       So yes Labour lost 6% support from 2017.

       Not unusual after 2 terms. And only back to where they were in 2011-2014 period.

       The lesson of that period was the decline from 27.5 to 25% (2011-2014 because of division).

       At the moment LGTPM have just over 40% vs 46% NACT.

       Both blocks will pick up NZF voters when it goes out once again (they fall below 5% after every coalition term).

       A 3% swing in the term is plausible, so it is game on in 2026.
     • Bearded Git 4.2.3

       4 November 2023 at 8:32 pm

       NZF 6.08 you mean Tony.

       Most of those protestors were simply frustrated and gullible. There were, however, a rump of very nasty people leading those protests who knew exactly what they were doing.

       Labour had no option but to allow the police to go in and sort them out. I m no friend of forceful police action, but watching the police take down that protest live was two hours of enthralling video where I was right on their side.
5. Dennis Frank 5

   4 November 2023 at 8:18 am

   Voters have proven that Hipkins’ leadership didn't achieve any dead cat bounce for Labour. The colour-bar graph here shows that: https://www.newsroom.co.nz/minor-parties-the-big-winners-in-final-tally

   The 11% differential between National & Labour matches the average 10% pre-campaign through autumn & winter.

   Just 5.6 % of the party vote went to parties which didn't make it into Parliament, down from 7.9 % in 2020 and up slightly from 4.6 % in 2017.

   MMP is marginalising rabble by design, but TOP came in not far behind TMP, so there's a reasonable basis for reducing the threshold from 5% to 2%.
   • mikesh 5.1

     4 November 2023 at 10:06 am

     A 2% threshold would reduce the 'wasted vote' factor's influence on voting, and parties like TOP could finish with higher percentages than they are getting at present. I have always tended to favour TOP and gave them two ticks in 2017. But after giving them my electorate vote only in 2020, this year I avoided the TOP candidate as well; although that vote this year was a vote against Nicola Willis rather than a vote against the TOP candidate herself.
     • Bearded Git 5.1.1

       4 November 2023 at 8:34 pm

       It would be stupid to reduce the threshold to 2%. We would end up with a mish-mash of 10 parties vying for power similar to Israel. Chaos.

       4% is an option that deserves consideration.
   • Dennis Frank 5.2

     4 November 2023 at 10:07 am

     Correction: the 10% differential emerged after the parity in July. You can see that here on the Stuff rolling poll: https://www.stuff.co.nz/election2023
   • Corey 5.3

     5 November 2023 at 2:40 pm

     If you can't win an electorate or hit 5% I'm OK with you not being in parliament.

     5% or needing an electorate is reasonable.

     If we lower the threshold then I'd want to get rid of the mixed member model and go full proportional because the amount of overhang that would be produced would just be stupid with multiple fringe parties getting more electorates than seat entitlements.

     Though I do like chaos, my dream election result is having independents winning all 72 electorates with the party vote 100% going to the parties.. Creating a 72 seat overhang
     • Dennis Frank 5.3.1

       5 November 2023 at 2:56 pm

       I vaguely recall voting for STV 30 years ago from a similar stance. Chaos & order are a primal pair. Humans group together naturally like many other species so our agency can only be expressed within communal constraints. Anarchists prioritise autonomy, but the benefits of cohering usually motivate folks more than the costs.

       The 6 parties in our parliament are a hexad: a triad on the left, another on the right, is how most here see it, most media likewise. Yet operationally, Winston has used his leverage to control the balance point. We await this centrist influence as a moderating force, yet he may allow various rightist shifts as well…
6. dv 6

   4 November 2023 at 8:20 am

   The interesting thing is Peters is the only one of the three who has any experience in political negotiations
7. Dennis Frank 7

   4 November 2023 at 8:39 am

   Bomber demonstrates his flair for accountancy: https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2023/11/03/specials-are-in-old-zealand-beats-new-zealand-election-2023-winners-losers-best-worst-predictions/

   How much per vote

   Act: $20.90

   National: $9.34

   NZ First: $6.91

   Green: $5.62

   Labour: $1.79

   Te Pāti Māori: $1.69

   Market forces producing a relative pricing list is commercial democracy at its finest. Our foreign minister incoming can get a graphic artist to present it as a colour-bar graph, full- page, laminated, so he can flash it at tv cameras all around the world. NZ can thus lead the world in showing how to do commercial democracy in a single image!

   The little nation that could! Such marketing pizzazz on the global stage would put stars in the eyes of corporations & politicians everywhere.
   • Barfly 7.1

     4 November 2023 at 9:09 am

     "follow the money"
   • adam 7.2

     4 November 2023 at 11:14 am

     This is the worst threesome in NZ History – they all cry out their own names when they orgasm!

     Sometimes Martyn just has the best lines.
   • Mike the Lefty 7.3

     4 November 2023 at 5:38 pm

     How big money bought the 2023 general election.

     It should be the title of Nicky Hager's next book.
     • Louis 7.3.1

       4 November 2023 at 8:03 pm

       
8. ianmac 8

   4 November 2023 at 8:45 am

   Probably shouldn't publicise another blog but I find Nick's Kôrero a very interesting and useful angle for the left.

   He is offering a 30 day free trial at https://nickrockel.substack.com?r=25honw
   • weka 8.1

     4 November 2023 at 9:25 am

     it's good to publicise all left wing voices!
   • Patricia Bremner 8.2

     4 November 2023 at 7:47 pm

     Agree Nick Rockell is an enjoyable left voice.
9. Dennis Frank 9

   4 November 2023 at 8:54 am

   Bomber's giving this guy the thumbs up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Penk

   He was an officer in our navy…

   After his military career, Penk became a property lawyer. His father, Stephen, is an Associate Dean at the University of Auckland's Law School and his brother Alex is also a lawyer.

   He's likely to become a cabinet minister.

   you can’t have a list of winners without The Penky! Deserves a Cabinet position as the only National Party MP with more charm than a road accident. https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2023/11/03/specials-are-in-old-zealand-beats-new-zealand-election-2023-winners-losers-best-worst-predictions/
   • SPC 9.1

     5 November 2023 at 4:16 pm

     There is a chance he will not be a Cabinet Minister, not ranked high enough within National given the need to place ACT and NZF MP’s in Cabinet.

     It's possible Bomber is anticipating Penk doing media work for National TV shows and wants him to be on The Platform.
     • Dennis Frank 9.1.1

       5 November 2023 at 4:22 pm

       Yeah, you could be right, although the dire lack of genuine talent in the Nat ranks gives him competitive advantage. If Luxon does promote him, I guess Bomber will miss out. I presume Luxon has the usual ability of a CEO to identify/select talent.
10. Mike the Lefty 10

    4 November 2023 at 10:07 am

    I am going to defy logic and predict that the terrible trio will form a government quite quickly, but it won't be a government as we know it and will have all the integrity and openness of the Exclusive Brethren. NACT investors are going to want their paybacks quickly and anonymously.
11. Incognito 11

    4 November 2023 at 11:10 am

    I’d been wondering if there’s any requirement or guidance on how close the result should be for a candidate to apply for a recount of the electorate vote. It appears there’s no requirement at all, at present.

    I found this report:

    He Arotake Pōtitanga Motuhake

    Independent Electoral Review

    Interim report: Executive summary

    Our draft recommendations for a fairer, clearer, and more accessible electoral system

    June 2023

    1. The Electoral Act contains mechanisms for resolving election outcomes through election recounts and election petitions. To prevent frivolous or vexatious actions, judges should have the discretion to decide whether a recount goes ahead: whether at the electorate or national level. If this is accepted, we recommend removing deposits required for recounts.

    https://consultations.justice.govt.nz/policy/ier-draft-recommendations/supporting_documents/Independent%20Electoral%20Review%20%20Interim%20Report%20%20Executive%20Summary.pdf

    I think there should be as few barriers as possible, and they should be as low as possible, to a recount and that this shouldn’t be left to a judge’s discretion.

    Edit: the bullet number should read 79; the text editor screws it up
12. adam 12

    4 November 2023 at 12:08 pm

    Bombing ambulances out side a hospital where children were playing.

    The IDF are the new SS.
13. Adrian Thornton 13

    4 November 2023 at 12:09 pm

    Several killed in Israeli attack on ambulance convoy: Gaza Health Ministry

    "Palestinian health ministry says several killed and dozens of others wounded in an Israeli attack on ambulance convoy."

    Dozens of people were reported killed and injured Wednesday as Israeli airstrikes targeted residential areas at Gaza's Jabalia refugee camp for a second day

    And here we see folks, the Western 'Rules Based Order" in all it's glory.

    Interesting how it is almost exactly the same countries who support and arm the Ukrainian forces in one of the most pointless war of our lifetimes.well except maybe Vietnam…no wait maybe Iraq…or it that Afghanistan…it is so confusing, the West seems to inflict it's 'Rules Based Order" on so many countries all around the World, who can keep up with the Western Democracy project….?
    • UncookedSelachimorpha 13.1

      4 November 2023 at 1:20 pm

      almost exactly the same countries who support and arm the Ukrainian forces…

      Weird, russia invading Ukraine is ok, but Israel invading gaza is not?

      Minor differences include repeated attacks by hamas (modern Ukraine has never attacked Russia) and hamas founding documents and rhetoric openly aiming to wipe out all Jews in the middle-east (Ukraine has never suggested wiping out Russia)
14. Adrian Thornton 14

    4 November 2023 at 1:46 pm

    "and hamas founding documents and rhetoric openly aiming to wipe out all Jews in the middle-east".. like what Israel is actually doing now to the Palestinians right now as we speak..

    "modern Ukraine has never attacked Russia"…..no just the Russian/Ukrainian civilians in the Donbass….from 2014 Human Rights Watch..

    "Unguided Grad rockets launched apparently by Ukrainian government forces and pro-government militias have killed at least 16 civilians and wounded many more in insurgent-controlled areas of Donetsk and its suburbs in at least four attacks between July 12 and 21, 2014, Human Rights Watch said today.

    The use of indiscriminate rockets in populated areas violates international humanitarian law, or the laws of war, and may amount to war crimes."
    • SPC 14.1

      4 November 2023 at 2:40 pm

      The use of indiscriminate rockets in populated areas violates international humanitarian law, or the laws of war, and may amount to war crimes."

      Sometimes there is a warning to leave and make the areas unpopulated, sometimes not.
15. Adrian Thornton 15

    4 November 2023 at 3:04 pm

    "Sometimes there is a warning to leave and make the areas unpopulated, sometimes not."

    …Link please
    • SPC 15.1

      4 November 2023 at 3:39 pm

      Why?

      Sometimes …. and sometimes not …. .

      Of late – Syria, Ukraine and Gaza.

      Is it a war crime to ask people to stay in the populated areas they were asked/advised to leave to provide a civilian cover? Or to use hostages as shields? Or to deliberately attack power supply before winter?

      https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/3/ukraine-says-it-downed-dozens-of-russian-drones
      • SPC 15.1.1

        4 November 2023 at 5:57 pm

        The Israeli military told the civilians of Gaza City to "evacuate south for your own safety and the safety of your families and distance yourself from Hamas terrorists who are using you as human shields."

        Leaders of the enclave's governing militant group Hamas also urged Palestinians to ignore the call, and by Friday afternoon there were no signs of any mass exodus from the north of the enclave.

        https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-tells-gaza-residents-stay-home-israel-ground-offensive-looms-2023-10-13/

        Last winter, Russia repeatedly attacked civilian infrastructure far from the front lines, leaving millions of Ukrainians without power, heat and water for days at a time.

        https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/3/ukraine-says-it-downed-dozens-of-russian-drones
        • Adrian Thornton 15.1.1.1

          5 November 2023 at 4:50 pm

          Holy shit….first of all the terrorist state of Israel is bombing the 'safe' zones….I am not going to bother with links because I am sure you are aware of this fact as it is in every single news source in the World.

          Secondly…While I don't condon Russia hitting civilian infrastructure, it is noted that they went without power and water for days at a time….I am pretty sure they could still buy water from their local supermarkets (which are not being bombed)…and I am also pretty sure that they could bundle up in their homes (which are not being bombed) and stay warm enough…. that you would even compare these two things say volumes.
          • SPC 15.1.1.1.1

            5 November 2023 at 5:17 pm

            Sure it was dumb not to hit targets in the south before* asking people to move there.

            Where did I compare the actions in Ukraine and Gaza – a baseless accusation.

            If one was to do that one would note the worst cases of indiscriminate violence in populated areas occurred in Syria – but that is history. Or of military violence in general more recently, the events a year or two back in Ethiopia.

            My first point was that

            A defence against indiscriminate violence in populated areas is a warning to leave if the destruction is going to be widespread.

            The second issue

            if it is discriminate, are the peoples water and power a legitimate target.

            In Gaza – given the housing is above military bases underground, it is an unusual case.

            Then comes the issue of provision of temporary housing and after conflict rebuild.
16. Adrian Thornton 16

    4 November 2023 at 5:13 pm

    Why?…because it part of a serious debate to reveal your sources of information….. one of the things your link above also reveals, is that in all of the bombing of civilian and govt infrastructure by the Russians, there was one person killed.

    " hostages as shield" Please provide a link.

    Where is the link verify to your claim earlier claim?
    "Sometimes there is a warning to leave and make the areas unpopulated, sometimes not."

    You can't just keep on making these serious claims without providing serious neutral links…that is not how this works…as I am sure you well aware.
    • SPC 16.1

      4 November 2023 at 6:01 pm

      I assume people are informed about the basics of the events and know all this stuff, but whatever.
    • Francesca 16.2

      5 November 2023 at 7:48 am

      hmmmm quite a bit of inconsistency in the moderation I see.Some partiality there for sure .I was banned for refusing to supply a link

      Then again , fairness doesn't count,the "owners" of the site are free to swing their flaccid dicks
      • Incognito 16.2.1

        5 November 2023 at 12:37 pm

        Why do you insist drawing attention to yourself in this way?

        Why do you continue with comments about UFGs (e.g. https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-26-10-2023/#comment-1974298, which I’d moved to OM)?

        Your memory is selective (start of your Moderation here: https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-09-06-2023/#comment-1953510). You’d been attacking another commenter and then refused to back your accusation with the required link despite several attempts and warnings, e.g., “I cannot be arsed citing chapter and verse for the whole oeuvre”.

        I could go on pointing out the difference between that and what’s been playing out here but I’d be wasting my time again, evidently.

        Consider yourself warned again.
      • Adrian Thornton 16.2.2

        5 November 2023 at 4:52 pm

        Yeah, I have been asking for links to prove their incendiary claims time and again….usually all I get is crickets.
        • SPC 16.2.2.1

          5 November 2023 at 5:05 pm

          "Their", am I promoted to the rank of them/they/the other side/those people?
      • SPC 16.2.3

        5 November 2023 at 5:01 pm

        I supplied links to what was already commonly known information.
17. Incognito 17

    4 November 2023 at 6:15 pm

    It looks too, like NZ First's gain was ACT's loss in the final weeks of the campaign.

    And judging by the graph [in the link], it certainly looks that way.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/in-depth/501664/how-christopher-luxon-s-nz-first-gamble-failed
18. SPC 18

    4 November 2023 at 6:36 pm

    Ultimately, Hamas believes international pressure for Israel to end the siege, as civilian casualties mount, could force a ceasefire and a negotiated settlement that would see the militant group emerge with a tangible concession such as the release of thousands of Palestinian prisoners in exchange for Israeli hostages, the sources said.

    The group has made it clear to the U.S. and Israel at indirect, Qatar-mediated hostage negotiations that it wants to force such a prisoner release in exchange for hostages, according to four Hamas officials, a regional official and a person familiar with the White House's thinking.

    Adeeb Ziadeh, a Palestinian expert in international affairs at Qatar University who has studied Hamas, said the group must have had a longer-term plan to follow its assault on Israel.

    "Those who carried out the Oct. 7 attack with its level of proficiency, this level of expertise, precision and intensity, would have prepared for a long-term battle. It's not possible for Hamas to engage in such an attack without being fully prepared and mobilized for the outcome," Ziadeh told Reuters.

    Washington expects Hamas to try to bog Israeli forces down in street-by-street combat in Gaza and inflict heavy enough military casualties to also Israeli public support for a drawn-out conflict, said the source familiar with the White House's thinking, who asked to remain anonymous to speak freely.

    Hamas has about 40,000 fighters, according to the sources at the group. They can move around the enclave using a vast web of fortified tunnels, hundreds of kilometers long and up to 80 meters deep, built over many years.

    On Thursday, militants in Gaza were seen emerging from tunnels to fire at tanks, then disappearing back into the network, according to residents and videos.

    An official close to the Iranian-backed Lebanese movement Hezbollah, which is allied to Hamas, said the Palestinian militant group's fighting strength remained mostly intact after weeks of bombardment. Hezbollah has a joint military operation room in Lebanon with Hamas and other allied factions in a regional network backed by Iran, according to Hezbollah and Hamas officials.

    Hamas official Osama Hamdan, who is based in Beirut, said the Oct. 7 attack and the unfolding Gaza war would put the issue of Palestinian statehood back on the map.

    "It is an opportunity for us to tell them that we can make our destiny with our own hands. We can arrange the equation of the region in a way that serves our interests," he told Reuters.

    "It's clear today that without peace with the Palestinians you are not going to have peace in the region."

    https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-hamas-aims-trap-israel-gaza-quagmire-2023-11-03/
19. bwaghorn 19

    4 November 2023 at 7:24 pm

    Watching the news, luxons publicly calling winston sir, and seymour is almost begging winston to call, the ring master is in the house. Act is on the cross bench s is I my bet .
    • aj 19.1

      4 November 2023 at 7:55 pm

      the ring master is in the house

      Agreed. Made Luxon look even weaker.
20. Joe90 20

    5 November 2023 at 5:28 pm

    Brilliant. Not sure how the artist could even conceive the piece.

    Ian Willoughby

    @Ian_Willoughby

    Check this out! This 3D portrait of Václav Havel, assembled from a huge number of items associated with him, is really quite something. It’s on show for the next 12 months at Prague’s VH Airport.

    https://twitter.com/Ian_Willoughby/status/1720838316411564134

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