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Open mike 04/08/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 4th, 2013 - 249 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

249 comments on “Open mike 04/08/2013”

  1. idlegus 1

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10907972 another journalists texts ‘hacked’, this time 2-3 months after the ‘cuppergate’ thing the police asked vodaphone for all of bradley ambroses txts, his txts to his lawyer, his txts to his fmaily, his txts to his sources & work colleagues, for what purpose? bloody nosey buggers. i think maybe we should all do what tony soprano used to do if he wanted to talk to his lawyer, face to face in a busy street somewhere, keep all private information away from the wires!

  2. muzza 2


    By arming what is effectively the mythical AQ (but referred to as “Rebels”), thus creating future terror threats which are then sold to the world via the propaganda wing (MSM) of the military/intelligence machine, such as what has been announced in the ME in the last 24 hours!

    The television network said that a CIA team was working in an annex near the consulate on a project to supply missiles from Libyan armouries to Syrian rebels.

    CIA chiefs were actively working to ensure the real nature of its operations in the city did not get out.

    Part of the cover up appears to be seeking to hide how many of their own people died in Benghazi – If they are good with covering up losses of their own people to serve a purpose, then what care factor will they give to covering up, literally, anything at all!

    Sources said that more Americans were hurt in the assault spearheaded by suspected Islamic radicals than had been previously reported

    So only the losses suffered by the State Department in the city had been reported to Congress.

    Starting to become clear to the most ardent of deniers by now, I would expect!

  3. felix 3

    A quick look at Simon Lusk and the Slater child’s blog this morning is quite telling, they seem to be in a bit of a spin.

    Every single one of their five “Must Read” posts is about how privacy is no big deal, journalists should pull their heads in and stop questioning the govt, and there’s NOTHING to see here.

    lolz boys, do you have to make it so obvious?

    • karol 3.1

      Ah, so Key’s lot ARE trying to hide something, and they have been over-riding democratic processes, along with undermining rights to privacy!

      • Tigger 3.1.1

        Damn you Felix for making me go there and read that filth. Managed to fall over a vile anti-gay post (‘correcting’ the word lesbian for something the writer clearly thinks is hilarious but is just sad). You’re right though, they are scared. Good.

    • bad12 3.2

      Yes the louder they yell that there is ”nothing” to see here gives the indication that there is in fact ”something” lurking in the background of this whole sordid little affair that ”we” would definitely like to see,

      At first i thought the Friday ‘document dump’ was an attempt to head off the furore about the, at the time, breaking revelation that it wasn’t only phone records that the Henry Inquiry/Prime Ministers Office went after but the emails as well,

      i do tho have the ‘sneaking suspicion’ that i have missed something, although the nature of what has been ‘missed’ escapes me also,

      Give the Slippery little Shyster a couple of brownie points for, as David Shearer says, using weapons of mass distraction in His, the Prime Minister’s, efforts to wriggle out from under,

      What we do know is that none of it, the phone records nor the emails, were sent ‘straight back’ by either the Henry inquiry or the Prime Ministers office, a rather large LIE pointed out by the ‘document dumps’ timeline when compared with the claims of the Prime Minister and other’s,

      Given that on the Thursday afternoon befor the release of the Government’s email trail Dunne had already publicly stated that Henry had approached Him verbally asking for details of specific mobile phone conversations between Dunne and Vance there is then the prima facie evidence of all the information, phone and email, having been read by either the Henry Inquiry, the Prime Ministers office, or both, despite their continual denials of having done so…

    • QoT 3.3

      That’s always a problem with multi-person blogs. Look at the conspiracy theories that got spun when several Standard authors chose to post on Shearer’s woeful leadership at the same time.

      The difference of course is that we actually have separate pseudonyms for separate authors.

      • lprent 3.3.1

        That was more of a cascade effect. The irritation levels had been bubbling for some time. Besides I barely mentioned Shearer in mine. I was having a go at the incompetent caucus as being useless. Shearer is just one of them and more of a symptom than the proximate cause.

      • felix 3.3.2

        I don’t think Whaleoil is really “multi-author” though. As far as I can tell, Lusk writes the articles and Slater posts the videos.

        He’s made up a few pseudonyms but if you look closely they all just post the stuff that Slater has always posted.

  4. Paul 4

    “Lawyers are demanding a review of how police intercept private communications after a photo-journalist’s cellphone logs and messages, including exchanges with a lawyer, were obtained in and inquiry instigated by the PM.
    Police seized the text messages of a photo-journalist involved in the “teapot tape” saga, including exchanges with his family, his lawyer and Herald on Sunday journalists.

    Auckland University associate law professor Bill Hodge describes the police actions as “mind-boggling”.

    Herald on Sunday today.


    • David H 4.1

      Just what Shonkey needs now, yet another shit storm, from yet another Journalist. It’s just not his week is it ?? (Fade out to laughter)

  5. Jenny 5

    What a good idea. If we fail to stop this bill there is more than one way to stop the spying. Close down the secret spybase in Waihopai. Turn its metal into ploughshares, or something else that’s useful. Let’s shut it down. Yeah, let’s tear it down.

    “Last night I had the strangest dream, I ever dreamed before. I dreamed the world had all agreed to put an end to war…..

    “Three cheers for the Dome Busters…..

    The next protest outside Waihopai should be the biggest ever.

    • jaymam 5.1

      Now I know what Waihopai is doing.
      Closing Waihopai should be an election issue.

      • One Anonymous Knucklehead 5.1.1

        Disagree. Much much more oversight of its uses should be an election issue.

        Spying makes open warfare less likely, and shortens wars that occur in spite of it. Waihopai is a significant asset.

  6. North 6

    Pretty poor ShonKey Python work from Michelle Boag on (Q) Qeue + (A) Adore this morning – clumsy attempt to define attacks on democracy a mere trifle – “let’s focus instead on sleeper issues such as recreational schnapper catch and animal testing” says Michelle.

    Interesting that with restrained vigour Corin Dann should correct her – paraphrasing – “……..this is about the credibility of the Prime Minister”. Wow ! Suddenly ?

    We are getting closer and closer to the situation where eventually there’s going to be some journalist who will see Bernstein possibilities arising out of ShonKey Python’s Flying Circus. Possibilities which persuade said journalist to engage true journalistic ethics, even if only for selfish purpose.

    Could Potty@Gower be said journalist ? His “part of the story” addiction would seem to acquit him well.

    • Paul 6.1

      Boag’s line shows the agenda planned by the right wing cabal.
      Repeal the dog testing.
      Repeal the schnapper limit.
      Prove to middle New Zealand you ‘listen’
      Pass The GCSB bill while the passive New Zealand population follow the line that the spying issue is just a grumble from pesky journalists.
      And get pliant shills like Hoskings, Boag….to sell the line.

      • DavidC 6.1.1

        do you get schnapps if you squeeze a schnapper really hard? 🙂

      • North 6.1.2

        Exactly Paul @ 6.1 – the manipulation value of this relative minutiae (schnapper etc) – “yes we hear you…..see how we listen…..” – did occur to me.

        Not directly on point but please Paul – no mention of Hosking, on Sundays. Vaingloriousness, narcissism, entitled snippiness, risible mutton-dressed-up-as-lamb confusion – not something I care to address on a Sunday.

        On point – any views on Michelle Boag’s role in parachuting ShonKey Python into NZ to meet the kaupapa devised post 1999 when the National Party was at its lowest ebb and the Evil Helen Clark was PM ? Who apart from Mich’ was on that committee ?

    • vto 6.2

      Boag is talking shit when she says animal testing should not be allowed for party pills……

      Animal testing if allowed for alcohol

      Animal testing is allowed for sports

      Animal testing is allowed for all kinds of private, entertainment, pleasureable activities.

      If some big fat slob requires some animal-tested medication for her condition that has arisen due to excessive eating and excessive drinking then what the fuck is the difference?

      … what a duh issue ….

    • Foreign Waka 6.3

      It was a sad feeling when I listened to Helen Clark as it became once more very clear what leadership talent we had and nothing like her has come along. Her comment about parity for women participation in politics however mad me sit up as the last thing we need is more M. Boag’s looking after 50% of the population. Interesting how MB phrased her comment on the living wage issue: … so that the board will say, don’t take our money (profit). Well that says it all. The gray people in the background that see everything around them as “theirs”. Reminds me on a bad mob movie theme.

      • logie97 6.3.1

        Unfortunately we live in an age of personality politics.

        The mind boggles at what sort of philosophical discussion we would witness, away from media frenzy and interviewers, between Helen Clark and John Key.

        Key is a shallow populist who struggles to speak English, mixing metaphors and speaking largely in mono syllables. Clark is a thinker and articulate and sees the world and New Zealand’s role in it, in a totally different light.

        That’s why Key’s minders get him interviewed by commercial radio disk jockeys and soundbite thinkers.

  7. Financially literate 7

    This guy needs to get with the programme. NZ Power or bust!


    • Paul 7.1

      A good journalist would have noticed he’s here as a guest of the New Zealand Institute for the Study of Competition and Regulation (ISCR). Gok on their website and their supporters include Contact, Meridian, Westpac.
      So an independent academic, then.

    • Draco T Bastard 7.2

      He’s just spouting the more competition BS that is the mainstay of modern economics and which has seen our power and telecommunications priced far beyond what they should be priced at. NZers know this but they don’t see a way to get the politicians to change it. We need to provide that way.

      • srylands 7.2.1

        “NZers know this but they don’t see a way to get the politicians to change it. We need to provide that way.”

        Could you please persuade Labour to adopt a policy of eliminating the market economy? And announce it – get David Shearer to announce that competition as the mainstay of the economy is bullshit and he will stop it. Please please.

        • bad12

          It of course hasn’t entered your head that power prices to consumers have risen at rates which far outstrip the levels of inflation in the economy and such rising power prices are not reflected in any additional costs to generators or retail power suppliers other than by dint of a cozy little club raising such prices on that well known business imperative known as ‘coz we can’…

        • Draco T Bastard

          Electricity is a natural monopoly as such having more than one “supplier” increases costs. We could get rid of a lot of the bureaucracy inherent in the present system, especially the high paid CEOs, if we went to a government monopoly and thus decrease costs.

          Economies of scale also apply. The generating equipment and distribution network cost close to a fixed amount every year no matter how much electricity is actually generated and so the way to keep the cost per household down you spread that cost across every household and business. Our present system breaks that economy of scale and thus increases costs per household and business.

          Also, the present system uses a dis-economy of scale by charging per kilowatt hour. This dis-economy is realised by large companies paying less per kilowatt hour than households. This causes a misallocation of electricity. According to supply and demand, higher use should result in being charged more. Of course, by doing it this way they can hide the fact that households are subsidising businesses while keeping profits high.

    • srylands 7.3

      NZ Power is a sick joke. It will never happen.

      • bad12 7.3.1

        A bigger joke is that you think it will never happen, here’s what an actual sick joke is vis a vis the retail price of electricity,

        In the past 2 years urged on by a continual stream of (false) Government propaganda i have managed to trim my already minimal use of electricity by 10%,

        During that same 2 year period the cost of that electricity from my retail provider has risen by a full 30%,

        Don’t be so stupid to suggest that i switch to a cheaper retail provider as to my knowledge there is not one,

        The only evident sick joke round these parts is your ego where you make claims of being an ‘economist’ unable to hire help at grandiose salary’s when evidenced by your comments you have very little clue about economics or anything else for that matter…

        • srylands

          You need a lesson in basic economics.

          “The Economics of Electricity”

          Click to access Electricity2.pdf

          Paras 75 onwards provide a lucid explanation of retail price movements.

          and I repeat NZ Power will NEVER happen. Zero chance. Under any government. There may well be a sign on a door in Wellington saying “NZ Power” but it will never do what Labour says it is going to do. Because when they win office they will receive the scary advice that it is a dog. Gee who would have thought? There will be a face saving announcement. When politicians get in they generally need to get with the programme if they want to get re-elected. Blackouts don’t win elections.

          That is me for today – I’m off to crank up the spa at full power and turn on the heat pumps. 🙂

    • srylands 7.4

      This is the guy that was rolled out by Labour to support NZ Power when it was announced. Now he calls the policy a “nightmare”

      “It may look good, but it’s got lots of challenges,” said Wolak of the Labour-Greens policy. “You’re throwing the entire baby out just to get rid of the bathwater and you’re going to start over, as if you have all these problems.”

      This is very funny.

  8. http://whoar.co.nz/2013/q-a-a-review-10/


    “..then..bloody hell..!..knock me over with a feather..!..the compere woods asks some real journalist-type questions..

    ..when she asks tindall from the warehouse how anyone could live on the minimum-wage they pay..

    ..and that isn’t working for families etc just a taxpayer subsidy for low-wage employers..

    ..tindall shifts uncomfortably in his seat..and blames the inernet for him having to pay that low-low-wage to most employees..

    ..tindall then says he supports a low-wage economy..and wants to see it continue nto the future..’cos it will create jobs’…(!)..(ed:..f.f.s..!..)

    ..(ed:..now if that dosen’t firmly make the case for a govt-mandated living-wage..what the fuck would..?

    ..it is clear our ‘sam walton’..tindall..and his like…will never voluntarily pay that living wage to their employees..

    ..these multi-millionaire employers are more than happy for the rest of new zealand to continue to subsidise their riches/profits..for forever..”

    phillip ure..

    • Paul 8.1

      Do not rely on ‘journalists’ like Wood to protect your democratic rights.
      Far too much in the pay and due to corporate interests.

  9. DrakeNZ 10

    I don’t suppose anyone saw the preferred PM figures from Q&A this morning? Can’t find it anywhere…

  10. Morrissey 11

    The Clobbering Machine
    Just over a week ago, on Saturday 27 July, an unpleasant thread appeared in The Standard, entitled “Lazy Jono on 3 News invents a story”. Second-team TV3 jonolist Jono Hutchinson had mischievously quoted an incendiary remark by activist/commentator/provocateur Jenny in order to reinforce his—or more accurately, his boss Patrick Gower’s—allegation that Shearer and Cunliffe had squabbled in public at a protest meeting against the Snooping Bill.

    The headmaster, Mr Prent, quickly administered a stern lecture to Jenny, and that of course should have been the end of it. Unwisely, though, Jenny answered back, and the headmaster dished out an even sterner scolding. Once again, that should have been the end of the matter. Unfortunately, however, the school yobbos and one or two thickies heard what was happening, and decided to get in on the act….

    SCENE: The Back Benchers Tavern, Wellington. On the sound system, something mellow and atmospheric by the Phoenix Foundation—although the pleasant music is somewhat undermined by the deranged shouting of a drunken army officer bawling threats at a tall young man in one corner. The rest of the bar seems to have been taken over by a motley group of malcontents, complainers and vehement political junkies as well as various sad hangers-on, coat-tailers and vacuous gigglers. In fact, that’s exactly what has happened: a large group of Standard regulars are knocking back the hard stuff and dishing out the verbals. At one table sits the fearsome foul-mouthed feminist Queen of Thorns. All afternoon QoT has been slamming back tequila after tequila after tequila, occasionally snarling at anybody unwise enough to cast an apprehensive glance at her, “Don’t you DARE fucking label me!”. This terrifying Medusa is attended by various hapless minions, foremost among them the Labour Party apparatchik, self-appointed enforcer and tireless deliverer of spurious accusations, Te Reo Putake, AKA “Squealer”. As well as diligently agreeing with every one of QoT’s feisty feminist flare-ups, Te Reo Putake has been hovering over the proceedings like a rain-sodden black cloud, waiting for his chance to dump on Jenny’s parade.

    Lounging at an adjoining table is the aforesaid contingent of hangers-on and gigglers, a rather pathetic and contemptible group comprising Morrissey Breen, Arfamo, Weka and Colonial Viper. They are all listening intently to Queen of Thorns as she lays into poor beleaguered Jenny….

    QoT: [snarling] Right, so you didn’t provide the link because you weren’t actually transcribing the audio but we’re meant to take your word for it even though others can’t verify it. That would be you making shit up right there, wouldn’t it?

    This frothing denunciation leads to an awkward silence. Nobody dares to speak. When the Queen of Thorns is up on her high horse like this, nobody has the courage to cross her, not even the notoriously feisty Jenny. An ominous gloom settles over the Standardista community. Even more ominously, it looks like now is the time for Squealer to unleash his burden…

    Te Reo Putake: [roaring with choleric rage] Bullshit, Jenny. You made that up. It didn’t happen.
    QoT: [glowering] Gods forbid anyone question your integrity given your extensive history of making shit up to suit your own narrative, but care to link to the footage you’re claiming to transcribe?
    McFlock: omg, she’s turning into morrissey…
    Colonial Viper: [stupid giggle] Heh heh heh. That’s funny.
    weka: I’d like to know what bizarre universe it is we’ve all ended up in where we’re feeling compelled to speak up for Shearer. Planet Jenny.

    Arfamo: Lol. I feel your pain and I share it.
    Te Reo Putake: Just for fun, I’d like to suggest that future examples of lazy news reporting are tagged as ‘jonolism’. Like, “Hi, I’m a jonolist from 3 News!”
    EVERYONE: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
    Te Reo Putake: Or “Look Mum I’ve won an award for my jonolism!”
    Mr Prent: [grimly] Heh! Almost worth doing as an object lesson.
    Arfamo: Lol. Jonolism is where reporters simply Garner their own news.
    Colonial Viper: [dopey chuckle] That’s funny.

    Meanwhile, in a dark corner of the bar, a drunken and aggressive slob continues to dish out threats to New Zealand’s best journalist….
    ARMY GENERAL WHO CANNOT BE NAMED: I have contacts in Afgh*n*st*n and I can have you fucking killed just like THAT! And I fucking will, you subversive communist al Qaeda fuckhead!
    JOHN STEPHENSON: You’re drunk, Rh*s. You’re making a fool of yourself.

    NOTE: This is a reconstruction of an actual conversation.
    If you want, you can follow the whole abject thing in its original form….

    Lazy Jono on 3 News invents a story

    • bad12 11.1

      LOLZ, put another log on the fire….

      • Morrissey 11.1.1

        Nice song. I think they play it at the Back Benchers sometimes….

        • bad12

          Never been there, i fear the place is a fire-hazard, humorous wee lampoon you have posted there,

          It’s intention is to…

          • Tim

            “It’s intention is to…”
            …… possibly show that Morissey can be just as cynical about himself as he can be aout others (which to my mind is a good thing)

          • Morrissey

            Never been there, i fear the place is a fire-hazard, humorous wee lampoon you have posted there. It’s intention is to…

            There is a serious reason I repackaged and presented those dismal messages for the reconsideration of Standard regulars. It is to highlight something that greatly troubles me, and indeed should trouble anyone who values free and open discussion, conducted in a serious and civil tone.

            I’m talking about a particularly malicious insult that our friend Te Reo Putake has regularly employed against me, and no doubt many others who have crossed him. QoT used it twice in that thread, against Jenny. This is the continued repetition of the lie that your opponent is “making shit up”.

            Instead of dealing with the substance of an uncomfortable issue, some people resort reflexively to abuse, and the repetition of a sordid piece of rhetorical abuse. Te Reo Putake is undoubtedly the worst offender here, but felix has also indulged in it, and (as we saw) so has QoT. This is the scurrilous and cynical behaviour you expect to see on the crazier right wing blogs; to see it indulged in on a mostly excellent and thoughtful forum like The Standard is extremely worrying.

            • bad12

              Tho i have no reason to support many of those you ‘name’ and in fact the opposite of that is true, my opinion is that while the accusation of ‘making s**t up’ is to a certain extent gutter language probably saying more about it’s users than anything else the substance of what they were pointing out could be said to be largely true,

              A re-litigation of this whole issue seems unwarranted but i found one of Jenny’s comments about the Shearer interjection, whether it actually occurred or not, to be rather ludicrous,

              To be able to infer from that one simple interjection, made or otherwise, that Shearer was Bullying Cunliffe would be, in my opinion, within the realm of ‘making s**t up’…

            • One Anonymous Knucklehead

              Morrissey, there are no reliable witnesses, which means that making shit up is a condition we all share. Therefore it cannot be an insult.

            • felix

              You do make shit up Morrissey. I’ve pointed it out several times when you’ve made up quotes you think you heard on the radio but never bothered to check.

              • Morrissey

                You do make shit up Morrissey.

                No I do not. And you know it.

                I’ve pointed it out several times when you’ve made up quotes you think you heard on the radio but never bothered to check.

                I have often conceded that not all of my transcripts are word-perfect. But they are always true to the spirit and substance of what has been said. If you want to object to my slant on an issue, or the way I have portrayed someone, that is fair enough, but you have occasionally taken the unwise option of following Te Reo Putake’s lead and claimed that what I write is all “made up.” That’s obviously the way he deals, or thinks he deals, with people at his LEC meetings, but such extreme and spurious tactics don’t work here. I would have thought you had more nous than to take such a lead.

                Perhaps your most grievous misjudgement was when you claimed that Chris (Haw Haw) Trotter had not delivered a depraved and pretentious defence of the appalling Florida jury decision in the Trayvon Martin case; he had done exactly that, of course, but you made some ridiculous claim that I had not put his windy oratory “in context”.

                We all expect better of you, felix, and I’m sure you will return to your normal high standards sooner rather than later.

                • felix


                  Last time you actually said your transcript was accurate. It was nothing of the sort.

                  And you are wrong about Trotter. I posted the audio to prove it. He did not say what you said he did, literally or otherwise.

                  Your writing is funny and clever but it is an outright lie to call it “transcribing”. It is fiction, sometimes based on actual events, sometimes entirely imaginary.

                  I challenge you to post the links to the audio next time so people can judge for themselves.

                  • Morrissey

                    Love you, felix. I take your point, but disagree about Trotter. He commented on that verdict, and it was all in support of the jury’s decision. I would provide a verbatim transcript if I could, but I can’t even get the link you provided to play on my computer.

                    Maybe some kind soul—Queen of Thorns, perhaps?—might like to assist me by providing a transcript.

    • Tim 11.2

      “That’s funny :)”

    • North 11.3

      Vintage Morrissey. Love it !

    • QoT 11.5

      … I don’t get it. Besides adding your own spin on something which people can easily read for themselves, what’s the point?

      Nice attempt at shaming me with the drinking and “apparatchik” comments, though, they really add to your cred as the one-man Open mike crusade against whoever you’ve decided to paraphrase for the day.

      • Morrissey 11.5.1

        … I don’t get it.
        Oh come on, Your Majesty! I think you get it perfectly well.

        Besides adding your own spin on something which people can easily read for themselves, what’s the point?
        Dramatization, my dear. It’s been going on since the days of THIS BLOKE….

        Nice attempt at shaming me with the drinking and “apparatchik” comments, though,
        The tequila detailing, and the “Don’t judge me” thing come straight from your website’s “About” page. The apparatchik dig was aimed at our friend Te Reo, not at you.

        they really add to your cred as the one-man Open mike crusade against whoever you’ve decided to paraphrase for the day.
        Those were direct quotes, not paraphrases.

        And….I know we’ve had some rather spiteful exchanges, but I enjoy your writing, and I’ve even commented (positively) on some of your Daily Blog articles.

        • QoT

          The tequila detailing, and the “Don’t judge me” thing come straight from your website’s “About” page.

          Context is meaningless! Up is down! Morrissey’s fantasies about the Jim Mora panel are completely accurate!

          Take your bullshit “praise” and go fuck yourself with it, mate.

          • Colonial Viper

            Are you sure that Morrisey didn’t capture your incandescent verbal style just write?

            • McFlock

              style, like beauty, is oft in the eyes of the beholder (as is comedy). But morrissey keeps claiming that his conceptual pieces are “accurate”, and I can never figure out whether he’s seriously delusional or just taking perfomance art to the next level, like Sacha Baron Cohen or Laibach.

              Either way it’s not really my cup of tea.

              • Morrissey

                ….like Sacha Baron Cohen or Laibach.
                Big difference between myself and Sacha Baron Cohen: I target the arrogant (Key and his cronies), the dishonest (Garth “Gaga” George), the vicious (Dr Michael Bassett, Garth the Knife McVicar), the pompous (Chris Trotter), the vacuous (Simon Farrell Green, Murray Deaker), the smug (Kerre Woodham), the hypocritical (“Sir” Graham Henry) and the corrupt (John “Cabbage Boat” Banks).

                Sacha Baron Cohen’s targets are the poor, the kind, the polite, and the victims of war crimes. He is a brutal and reckless liar, and a fanatical supporter of an outlaw state.

                Comparing that scumbag to me was a misjudgement on your part.

                Laibach I do have some time for; those guys are a timely reminder that Slovenia produces better things than foolish and shallow poseurs like Slavoj Žižek.

            • QoT

              I’m sure that when I call myself a tequila-drinking bitch who rejects labels, it’s very very different from when Morrissey calls me a tequila-drinking bitch who rejects labels.

              But of course he’s ~dramatizing~ things so misogynist behaviour-policing is totally okay.

          • Morrissey

            Context is meaningless!
            I’m sorry to have to say that inanely shouting slogans does not enhance your credibility one bit. I think you’re trying to imply with your ranting that, for me, context is meaningless. That, of course, is a ridiculous accusation; I go to great pains to always put my writing in context.

            Up is down!
            Could you provide an example of my trying to say any such thing? Of course you can’t, but I am eagerly awaiting your tabling of the evidence.

            Morrissey’s fantasies about the Jim Mora panel are completely accurate!
            “Fantasies”? Oh, I see—you’re channeling Te Reo Putake! Bad idea, that.

            Take your bullshit “praise” and go fuck yourself with it, mate.
            The praise was genuine, but it appears you lack the grace to let bygones be bygones. I do admire your feistiness, but you should know that not everybody has my patience. I advise you to dial down the indignation a notch or two.

    • Te Reo Putake 11.6

      Jeez, Moz, I was tempted to be positive about this effort, especially since, for the first time ever, you accurately transcribed the quotes, but your hopeless drivel about me in your replies really only leaves room for one retort.

      You’re making shit up.

      Feel free to transcribe these words any way that makes sense to you, dude.

      • Morrissey 11.6.1

        Jeez, Moz, I was tempted to be positive about this effort, especially since, for the first time ever, you accurately transcribed the quotes, but your hopeless drivel about me in your replies really only leaves room for one retort.
        Oh puh-leeeease! Enough already with the wounded admonitions. I believe my characterisation imbued you with a demonic energy that will see the ladies flocking around you, you bad boy you.

        You’re making shit up.
        If that’s a technical term for lifting some banal online banter out of its usual obscurity and putting it into a Broadway production, then this writer, i.e., moi is….

        Feel free to transcribe these words any way that makes sense to you, dude.
        Thanks dude. Keep up the good work.

  11. bad12 12

    Interesting, in today’s Herald, a retired, retiring Judge’s contribution to a book containing well known New Zealanders who are considered grumpy males,(are there not grumpy females),

    This and the follow up article in the same Herald simply say ”if you are not wearing a suit and you have visible Tatts then you will receive from the New Zealand court system far less ”justice” than those who appear in suit without any visible body ink”,

    What an ugly little prejudiced system we have…

    • North 12.1

      Link ? Would seek it out myself if Herald did not routinely bury real stuff in favour of distracting pap. Keen to know whom the judge is.

      • bad12 12.1.1

        In today’s Herald on-line, sorry i have never been able to do links from other than Googled web-pages,(and then not all of them are a great success),

        The problem being my computer illiteracy being a self taught user AND the not inconsiderable fact that i am a lazy little sod lulled into the belief that i need no further skill other than the present level of self taught ‘getting by’…

        • Treetop

          I always appreciate the effort a person makes and until something is banned and I am unable to do it differently I can only do what I know.

      • Molly 12.1.2

        For bad12 – Rough gear does you no good by Johnathan Milne.

        • bad12

          Lolz, thanks Molly, add to my little excuses list above the fact that someone usually comes along and saves my bacon link-wise…

      • North 12.1.3

        Never mind Bad12. Found it.

        With respect, I suspect that His Honour expresses tongue-in-cheek here. And that being the case I further suspect there will be a sides-split audience of some 120 plus who as we speak will be flicking off “HaHaHa !” emails to their brother.


        If I suspect wrongly, I look forward NOT to reading His Honour on the day he is no longer hobbled by the proscriptions inherent in picking up the $250,000 plus annual stipend of a District Court judge.

        Oh that on my next court appearance I have the wedge to engage the sartorial standard which sufficiently reflects my respect for the justice system and the learned judicial officer holding my immediate fate in his/her hands !

        • bad12

          i favor that you suspect wrongly, the legal eagle quoted in the link kindly provided by Molly, a follow-up piece by a Herald reporter, echo’s, with a certain amount of reservation the learned Judge’s comments…

  12. James Thrace 13

    In all the talk on leadership contenders, one name that should be mentioned but rarely is.. Iain Lees-Galloway. I think he ticks all the boxes. Smart, articulate, left leaning and decidedly the thinking woman’s crumpet.

    Whats not to like.

    • North 13.1

      What’s not to like ? Mean sour old pikelets is what not to like. As a pretty dependable rule of thumb. Just generally

  13. srylands 14

    “Deal opens door for Chinese workers in Christchurch rebuild”


    It is travesty that we are forced to bring in 17,000 migrants to rebuild ChCh when we have so many welfare recipients. Not all of these jobs require high skills.

    The problem is not a lack of training places. It is a mixture of motivation, ability to relocate, and sadly very low skill levels, demotivation, and drug use.

    The priority should be their children (and doing everything possible to discourage long term welfare recipients having children that will repeat the cycle). The existing children of welfare recipients should be a high priority for Government attention – both money and re-education.

    • North 14.1

      Yeah well you better get on the blower to ShonKey Python and suggest that he not allow the portly gal from Waitakere to high-prioritise dog-whistles against beneficiaries.

      Sounds to me like you’re not quite so enamoured by the performance of ShonKey Python’s Flying Circus as once you were Sryland ?

    • tricledrown 14.2

      srylands you have been sucked in by your cults bull shit drug use amongst beneficiaries research has shown to be at a lower level than the general population!
      you are just another cult victim who has swallowed your leaders BS (poison like those in jones town)
      When you don’t have effective policy to create jobs for NZders its a cheap nasty solution to demonize those who can’t help them selves!

      • srylands 14.2.1

        “When you don’t have effective policy to create jobs for NZders”

        Governments cannot (and should not try to) “create” jobs.

        • North

          Srylands……….does this shifted goal posts argument of yours apply even when the ShonKey Python Kool-Aid contained the promise of 170,000 new jobs ?

          Or is that promise too inconvenient (and impossible) for you to address ?

          Damn ! Just when I thought you were coming right…….

          • srylands

            I have no idea what he said – I am not an apologist for the Government or the National Party. The current government is a left wing government. I’m simply telling you my view that Governments cannot create jobs. They can certainly adopt policies to destroy jobs. Just read through a list of Green Party policies to give you a heads up.

            • tricledrown

              srylands How many jobs has national promised to create 170’000 was what your leader promised!

              • srylands

                “How many jobs has national promised to create 170’000 was what your leader promised!”

                No idea what he said. Don’t care. Governments don’t create jobs.

            • RedLogix

              Given that in most developed economies the government is directly responsible for about 35-45% of GDP and probably around 20-30% of employment … your claim is ridiculous on the face of it.

              More importantly however is that in the absence of government .. the private sector would not exist either.

              • srylands

                The only way the Government can create jobs is to lower state sector productivity (it needs to do the opposite) or increase the size of the public sector (when it needs to do the opposite – and not nearly enough is being done on that front).

                Channeling resources away from the productive sectors might “create jobs” but they are illusory.

                We could use general taxation to pay people to paint rocks white. That of course would create jobs. But that is not the direction we need to head in. Small government and high productivity is the way to go.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Channeling resources away from the productive sectors might “create jobs” but they are illusory.


                  Most jobs created by the private sector aren’t what one could call “productive” and, more often than not, they’re illusory as well.

                  We could use general taxation to pay people to paint rocks white.

                  Good job that nobody, except you, has suggested we do that.

                  Small government and high productivity is the way to go.

                  The increasing poverty that that model has brought about over the last three decades proves you wrong.

                  • srylands

                    “Small government and high productivity is the way to go.

                    The increasing poverty that that model has brought about over the last three decades proves you wrong.”

                    Because over the last three decades we have had low productivity and large government.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      No, we haven’t no matter how much you RWNJs think we have.

                      BTW, the low productivity is a) a load of BS, productivity has been increasing faster than wages and b) it hasn’t been increasing as fast as it should have because of the policy settings that allowed businesses to keep wages low.

                      The problem is business which has been enabled by government that believed the illusion of the neo-liberal paradigm.

                    • KJT

                      In the 1980’s we shrunk the Government, cut state spending, cut services, wages and taxes. We have been falling behind comparable countries, ever since.

                      We have one of the best per capita resource bases in the world. The fact we are falling behind other similar sized OECD countries is an indictment of the policies of the last 30 years.

                      Note how the economy picked up under Labour’s slightly increased State involvement and the recession Richardson caused, when the rest of the world was not having one, by her cuts.

                      We used to send aid to Singapore, FFS.

                    • tricledrown

                      thats absolute bullshit srylands .
                      Look at what happened to Argentina when they copied your policies.
                      Your are just repeating a failed mantra.
                      Germany is the most successful economy in Europe why because they train young people like no other economy !
                      We had Shipley and Bolger trying your less govt more business model in the 1990’s we had 3 good years out of 9 revolving around tax cuts for the better off just before the elections (election bribes) they gave the economy a short term boost followed by a long period of decline in between elections!
                      What we got was less govt and less business!
                      You r trying to push the old right wing whore’s(thatcherism) explanation of how to run an economy like a home budget which is naive redneck BS!
                      productivity is very hard to measure and as you get more people into employment in your economies, productivity goes down same all over the world I have studied every economy going back to Egyptian times.
                      Your simplistic bullshit is just that, unresearched redneck moralizing bullshit!

                    • MrSmith

                      So Srylands say due to your small government argument we have a foot in mouth out break or as we are about to see a company like Fontera implodes all because of poor oversight.

                      My guess is you will say something like ‘thats just market forces at work’, yet many jobs will be lost, not to mention our reputation, so yes governments do create jobs through good governance.

                • KJT

                  Another twit with the idea that, say, a Teacher, or a Doctor, working in the State sector, is not part of the “” productive sector””.

                  Do they suddenly only become “”productive”” LOL, only if they are privatised?

                  Srylands statement of course comes from the laffer curve idea.
                  That expansion of Government provision of services always displaces the private sector.

                  If that was really the case then you would expect the countries with extremely large State shares in the economy to be the worst off. Which is obviously not the case.

                  Countries with large State investment in the economy are the most successful. Some States manage with no private sector at all. (Not what I would recommend though).
                  Every one from Singapore to Norway, Germany and Denmark.
                  Countries which have high State spending either/or both percentage wise or per capita.
                  How are your low tax, small Government countries doing? Srylands.

                  Funny that everyone wants to immigrate to countries with high levels of State social spending.
                  Not many want to go to Somalia. Your ideal of small Government and unlimited/unregulated free enterprise.

                  Shrinking the States share of the economy is working so well in Greece, Spain, Ireland and Italy, Right!

                  You claim to be in business. How well would your business be doing without our State provided infrastructure?

                • RedLogix

                  Painting rocks white is of course silly. Neither a public nor private sector organisation would do this because:

                  1. The private sector organisation would not achieve a cash flow for doing so.

                  2. The public sector organisation would not achieve a political mandate for doing so.

                  Different means of accountability, same end result.

                  Now the cash flow mechanism is simpler, faster and more direct. If you can’t find the cash to pay the wages and overheads this month you must take immediate action. Indeed this is why the private sector is good at things that are relative low-risk, short-term and local in scope … like selling baked beans. The downside is that it’s very hard to get things done that you cannot extract an immediate direct cash-flow from.

                  By contrast political accountability works over more variable time-frames, with more variable responses. If a government ultimately loses the confidence of the people they eventually have to take some action. But there is a fair bit of flexibility, resilience and ability to spread risk over time. This is why the public sector is better at high-risk, long-term and globally scoped undertakings ….like education and health.

                • Foreign Waka

                  Taken to the next level – and this is already done in some sectors, car industry, defense etc…- is the use of robots in production and online shopping instead of shops. Who is really needed in such a “productive world”? It also means that there is no need to be governed as the corporates are not even overseen today, let alone under such circumstance.Tax take will decline to a mere trickle and the rulers of foreign politics and defense could as well be appointed directors of the corporate body. This would be the smallest government and highest productivity one can think of.
                  I belief we have to rethink the way society works, the sooner the better.

                  • srylands

                    “and online shopping instead of shops. ”

                    You still go to “shops”?

                    • Foreign Waka

                      Beside your snide remark – yes ordinary people do actually go and get i.e. groceries – you have not come up with an answer to the issues our society is and will face. Slogans wont cut it.

            • North

              Oh yes you do Srylands…….be honest now. And posing as a rightie who thinks ShonKey Python is actually Matt McCarten Left…….well…….you just look like a fuckwit.

              Honesty is the best policy mate……wherever you’re at.

              Have a Snickers bro’. You’re mean when you’re disappointed and outed for it.

        • Draco T Bastard

          Governments cannot (and should not try to) “create” jobs.

          Actually, the government can and should create jobs. Saying that it shouldn’t is just making our society ever more dependent upon the rich which is, of course, what they want and why they created the fiction that governments shouldn’t. When governments go round looking after the people that they’re supposed to serve the capitalists lose power.

          I’m simply telling you my view that Governments cannot create jobs.

          Your view is in direct contradiction of reality.

          • Colonial Viper

            Governments cannot (and should not try to) “create” jobs.

            I don’t think Shitlands has ever been treated at a public hospital, been pulled over by a policeman, or had a letter delivered to his address, by the sounds of it. Or, he’s an idiot.

      • srylands 14.2.2

        Whatever – there is too much drug use amongst welfare recipients. Go to the East Cape and talk to logging companies trying to recruit tree pruners. They struggle to recruit and retain young unemployed men because of drug testing. It is a serious problem.

        Of course employed people will use more drugs than those on welfare – they have more money. Doesn’t mean that it is not a serious problem.

        • tricledrown

          logging companies have also been exploiting workers, the word gets around young people don,t want to go out in work gangs to work for eight hours, when they get to work they are given the dangerous work with little training while the contract workers take the easy work easy money
          The eight hours becomes 10 to 12 hrs work with no pay for the extra hours putting these workesr health safety at risk no pay for the extra hours and quite often no pay at all as alot of these contractors keep the wages and fob off young naive workers!
          more blame shifting just like your leader!

        • tricledrown

          then we should drug and alcohol test students whose parents are wealthy,as they are getting 70% of their fees paid for by the state mp.s are recieving 100% funding by the state drug test cops ird staff work and income defence force roading contractors etc etc.

        • KJT

          I don’t think that employers who pay minimal wages for difficult dangerous and dirty work, far from home, are going to get the pick of the bunch, somehow.

        • Paul

          Not busy, today? Again?
          You need to find a useful hobby.

    • James Thrace 14.3

      The problem is not a lack of training places. It is a mixture of motivation, ability to relocate, and sadly very low skill levels, demotivation, and drug use.

      The problem is a lack of training programs. It is also a mixture of incompetence by government, ability to forecast when builders would be required, and sadly, very low levels of intelligence.

      • Tim 14.3.1

        What’s not to like aye! It’s a win win situation. Those Chinese will work for nothing (their visas will be tied to a specific employer – just to keep track of them of course), and Fonterra can assist in some sort of feeding programme akin to weatbix and milk in schools. Perhaps something like corn product and milk whey.
        Nathe-the-man Guy and Soimun Brudges can keep an eye on the whole scheme to ensure transparency and oversight.

        • srylands

          Yes but most Chinese are lactose intolerant. Getting Fonterra to feed them – bad idea.

          • tricledrown

            Srylands we here are BS intolerant so go back to KB like you promised a few days ago but as usual you blindly follow your leader in breaking promises

          • Tim

            I imagine their also botulism-intolerant too – but then what’s a few chinks between friends! We’ve still got the nargy-nation to work on for our next FTA – and who knows ….. something may still come of that South American jaunt earlier this year

      • srylands 14.3.2

        “A lack of training programmes”

        Here is a list of (some free) courses – all with spaces available.

    • Draco T Bastard 14.4

      And srylands pulls out all the BS.

      It is travesty that we are forced to bring in 17,000 migrants to rebuild ChCh

      You’re not forced to bring them in at all.

      The problem is not a lack of training places.

      No, it’s a lack of being supported through training either by the government or the businesses.

      It is a mixture of motivation, ability to relocate, and sadly very low skill levels, demotivation, and drug use.

      Well, I’m pretty sure that if you paid enough to cover expenses including the expense of relocating then people would be motivated. Drug use isn’t that much of an issue – never has been. If it was all those people drinking alcohol (a legal drug) wouldn’t have a job.

      The priority should be their children (and doing everything possible to discourage long term welfare recipients having children that will repeat the cycle).

      That “cycle” is a direct result of capitalism because capitalism forces poverty on the many. When people don’t have access to the needed to resources to better themselves, to make a go of life then they inevitably lose self-esteem and start to see no point in doing anything. Get these people to the resources they need and that cycle will come to an end but the capitalists don’t want that because then they’d actually have competition and wouldn’t be able to profit so much.

      • srylands 14.4.1

        “Well, I’m pretty sure that if you paid enough to cover expenses including the expense of relocating then people would be motivated.”

        God what an entitlement culture you live in.

        Their support should be a bus ticket to ChCh. One way.

        • blue leopard


          Supplying people with the means that they don’t have to get somewhere and set up somewhere to live is not displaying an attitude of ‘entitlement culture’, it is simply an attitude of addressing the practical obstacles that a person on welfare would have to getting those jobs in Chch.

          Surely even you can see this point?

        • Draco T Bastard

          God what an entitlement culture you live in.

          Are you willing to pay to go to work? Because that’s what you’re asking people to do.

      • srylands 14.4.2

        “No, it’s a lack of being supported through training either by the government or the businesses.”

        So a student allowance or a loan is not good enough? Bloody hell.

        • Draco T Bastard

          When it doesn’t cover the bills? No it’s not and nobody should ever have to borrow to do training.

  14. Draco T Bastard 15

    Uruguay to Become First Nation to Fully Legalize Marijuana: Blow to Ruinous US War on Drugs

    Given the passage of a sweeping new law legalizing marijuana in the entire nation of Uruguay by their Congress on August 2 (with the apparent inevitable passage by the Uruguayan Senate this fall), the South American nation is likely to become the first nation to set the dominoes of a ruinous US drug war policy tumbling down.

    And the sooner we legalise marijuana here in NZ the better as well.

    • Tim 15.1

      Christ Draco T!!!!
      This IS serious!
      You do realise those bloody narco states COULD (possibly, maybe, at a pinch) be financing the Yell Kida!
      What can be done?
      This really IS a crisis!

      I know …. let’s trust in our Proim Munsta and our agencies of state to protect us.

      After all – we lekd them, and they’ve got OUR best, bestest, bestest bestest intrusts at heart! (AYE?)

    • Murray Olsen 15.2

      Portugal and the Netherlands have already moved in terms of legalisation. Uruguay isn’t the first, but it is good seeing it happen in South America. As always, drug laws there are used to attack the poor, curb civil rights and excuse brutal militarised police forces.

  15. Paul 16

    It would be nice to have intelligent discussions on this website without sryland continually derailing it.
    So boring.

    • srylands 16.1

      I don’t think it was intelligent before I came along.

      • Paul 16.1.2

        Still here?

      • tricledrown 16.1.3

        Schrilands you are just wheeling out the same lines word for word letter for letter even the punctuation marks of other neo liberal has beens!
        Show us some evidence your neo liberal moralistic crap works.I have researched and studied economics for over 30 years and have found no place your simplistic naive short sighted model works!

    • Murray Olsen 16.2

      We should all just ignore him. He says nothing of any value.

      • Paul 16.2.1

        I know.
        However he takes up so many space and we have to skim past all the comments to get to constructive discussions.

  16. Northshoreguynz 17

    Grant Robertson on democracy in the Labour Party.

    • Rhinocrates 17.1

      That apparatchik Beltway Grant Robertson on “democracy” on Beige Alert?! “Leonid Brezhnev* on democracy” would be less cynical, more inspiring and sincere.

      Nice words. Coming from someone else, I might believe them.

      *Not the worst, but certainly the dullest.

  17. Pascal's bookie 18

    latest Poll

    ONE News Colmar Brunton poll:
    NAT 46%(dwn 3),
    LAB 33%,
    GRN 14%(up 5),
    NZF 3%,
    MAO 2%,
    ACT 1%
    CNSV 1%(dwn 1)

  18. Anne 19

    And look where most of it has come from… the National Party.

  19. joe90 20

    Finally – an acknowledgement that unionism is the solution.


  20. Saarbo 21

    Fonterra’s handling of the contamination at their Hautapu Factory is unbelievable. I cant help but think the attempt to cover this up and the lack of openness and honesty we are seeing from Fonterra is related to the way our country is currently lead. Key and National have turned cover ups and dishonesty into an art form.

    This Fonterra cock up is catastrophic…expect some fairly senior heads to roll this week….and I predict an eventual reversal of the 50 cent increase in the payout announced earlier this week (Thats probably best case scenario at this stage)

    I wonder if HONESTY & INTEGRITY will play an important part in the 2014 election…should be good for the Green Party, clearly the only major party that has this in truck loads.

    • Pasupial 21.1


    • Red Rosa 21.2

      Agreed. Absolute shocker.

      But real corruption and the Corporate state have now arrived in NZ.

      Fonterra, too big to regulate. Farmers run the show. I see a Feds spokesman blames the testing and the media – after all, no-one died. (Since lost the link, mmmm…!)

      Where is the Ministry of Primary Industries in all this? Hardly a suitable regulatory authority. Minister Guy spends most of his time talking up the benefits of irrigated dairying, and downplaying its effects on the environment.

      And this is the Nats’ doing – they set up MPI. If the regulatory authority was the Min of Health things might have been different.

      This will be the week that Key heads away on holiday again, my guess.

      • Red Rosa 21.2.1

        Federated Farmers vice president Dr William Rolleston begged people not to jump to conclusions.

        ”As far as we know no-one has got sick, it’s the testing that has brought this to the surface … and that has to be something that will help build Fonterra’s reputation,” he said.

        MPI and Fonterra needed to do further testing, he said.

        Got it. Another Federated Farmers’ Classic!

      • Poission 21.2.2

        if the regulatory authority was the Min of Health things might have been different.

        It would be the fault of the quasi autonomous company asure nz that would have oversight and would have some portion of the phytosanitary certification,whether they were informed or when is another matter.

        testing would be especially difficult,if there was suspicion of the causative agent .i would suggest it would only be able to be tested at Wallaceville or an overseas certified lab.

    • weka 21.3

      Fonterra’s handling of the contamination at their Hautapu Factory is unbelievable. I cant help but think the attempt to cover this up and the lack of openness and honesty we are seeing from Fonterra is related to the way our country is currently lead. Key and National have turned cover ups and dishonesty into an art form.

      This Fonterra cock up is catastrophic…

      Saarbo, do you have something I can read that supports that. Because what I’ve seen on Stuff etc doesn’t.

      Do you know what the actual risk is? AFAIK, they found the Clostridium botulinum bacteria in its inert, not its active form. That’s a different thing than botulism.

      Don’t get me wrong, I think Fonterra rate fairly high on the evil scale, and are capable of covering up things to save their own butts. But, I don’t think they are stupid enough to allow botulism into the food chain and then go slow on resolving that, so am guessing the actual risk is pretty low. Unfortunately the MSM aren’t providing any useful information on that, so we’re pretty much in the dark.

      • weka 21.3.1

        Foodborne botulism is a rare illness caused by eating foods contaminated with botulinum toxin. Spores of C. botulinum are ubiquitous in the environment (3), but growth and elaboration of toxin occur only under particular conditions that include an anaerobic, low-salt, low-acid environment. Bacterial growth is inhibited by refrigeration below 4°C, heating above 121°C, high water activity,or acidity (pH <4.5) (4). Toxin is destroyed by heating to 85°C for at least 5 minutes, and spores are inactivated by heating to 121°C under pressure of 15–20 lb/in2 for at least 20 minutes (5).

        My emphasis.


      • Saarbo 21.3.2

        Only what I have read in the media Weka. This happened in May 2012, why are we only hearing about this now? remember this is all in the shadow of the melamine disaster, Fonterra need to treat any contamination with real care and respect. China and Russia have stopped all Dairy imports from NZ. My thinking is that this is catastrophic.

        • weka

          Only what I have read in the media Weka. This happened in May 2012, why are we only hearing about this now? remember this is all in the shadow of the melamine disaster, Fonterra need to treat any contamination with real care and respect. China and Russia have stopped all Dairy imports from NZ. My thinking is that this is catastrophic.

          I’m a bit confused by that. I agree that the health risks should be taken seriously, but that is separate from economic issues (my thinking is the slowing of the industrial dairying in NZ would be good for NZ).

          Re the health issues, well I’ll say it again, we don’t know what the risk is, but it’s possible that it is very low. Clostridium is not synonmous with people getting ill from botulism. You need specific conditions for that to happen.

          To put it another way, I think the real concern here is that the MSM haven’t reported what the actual risk is. If it turns out that Fonterra have been negligent and cavalier, then throw all kinds of shit at them.

          The other factor is, how common or rare is it for a pipe to become contaminated in this way? How often do people in NZ get botulism? We don’t have a context to understand this within.

          And industrially produced food is always going to have levels of unsafety that are specific to it. Look at the ecoli outbreaks in the US in recent years – they came from spinach that was grown with animal shit spread in the fields, and then the spinach was distributed via the industrial food supply chains and it was difficult for them to figure out where it came from and what the source was. I’d like to know how clear and efficient Fonterra’s supply chains are.

          • Saarbo

            Yes, I understand where you are coming from Weka, I hope you are right. But we do know that the Chinese are incredibly sensitive since the melamine disaster which is completely understandable. Attached is the e mail from the fonterra Chairman yesterday, it raises a big question around TIMING. The problem occurred in May 2012 (Point 1), a POTENTIAL issue discovered in March 2013 (Point 7), Issue confirmed in July 2013 (Point 8)…..why did all of this take so long?

            Fonterra let farmers know within a matter of hours whether there is contamination in their supply, why does it take Fonterra factories so long….its not a good look.

            E mail from John Wilson to Farm Suppliers yesterday.

            Good evening

            1)Fonterra today advised eight customers of a quality issue involving three batches of whey protein concentrate (WPC80) produced at a single New Zealand manufacturing site in May 2012.
            2)These companies are now investigating where the affected product is in their supply chains and if necessary, will initiate consumer product recalls.
            3)There have been no reports of any illness linked to consumption of the whey protein. –4)Dairy products such as fresh milk, yoghurt, cheese, spreads and UHT milk products are not affected.
            5)Food safety is Fonterra’s number one priority. Fonterra takes matters of public health extremely seriously and is doing everything it can to assist its customers to ensure any affected product is removed from the marketplace and that the public is made aware.
            6)The business is working closely with New Zealand’s regulatory authority – the Ministry for Primary Industries – to keep New Zealand and offshore regulators informed.
            7)Fonterra initially identified a potential quality issue in March this year, when a product tested positive for Clostridium. There are hundreds of different strains of Clostridium, the majority of which are harmless.
            8)Product samples were then put through intensive testing over the following months. On Wednesday 31 July 2013, a test indicated the potential presence of suspected Clostridium Botulinum in a sample – a strain which can cause botulism.
            9)This particular Whey Protein Concentrate (WPC80) is used by Fonterra’s customers in a range of products including infant formula, growing up milk powder and sports drinks – and that is why the business has acted with speed so any potentially affected product is removed from the marketplace.
            10)Fonterra is continuing to work with customers and will provide more information as it becomes available.


          • ak

            Pono, Weka. We don’t really know the full health risks, but from what we do know, the reaction does seem a little disproportionate. Just like the recent reaction to the wrong paperwork which held tonnes of mutton on Chinese wharves.

            What we do know however, is that the Chinese are rather sensitive to international criticism. Especially from arrogant minnows who cuddle up to Taiwan and Uncle Sam. Oh – and that our own dear wee PM recently accused them publicly of “spreading their tentacles” in the South Pacific.

            The pink hand of Gooberdick strikes again.

            • weka

              Ok, but again, that’s an economic issue not a health one. Why should we care if the Chinese stop buying our diary?

    • Rhinocrates 21.4

      an art form.

      No, “art form” indicates skill and care.

      Er, agreeing with you by the way 🙂

      • Saarbo 21.4.1

        Fair point Rhino.

        National are classic bull shit artists.

        • Rhinocrates

          For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled.

          Richard Feynman (Nobel Prize winner)

          There are other opinions

          John Key (arsehole)

          • Saarbo

            haha, you are an Artist Rhinocrates!

            • Rhinocrates

              Well, like an artist, I’m starving… or at least, forced by economics into brief periods of sobriety.


              • Chooky

                If all else fails you can stick your head under a rug with Shostakovich……Shostakovich gets more and more appealing

  21. tricledrown 22

    Schrilands with all your neo liberal arguements can you show us some proof they work which countries or states work .name policy country or sate ,show,evidence or put
    Up or shut up!

  22. tricledrown 23

    Schrilands with all your neo liberal arguements can you show us some proof they work which countries or states work .name policy country or sate ,show,evidence or put
    Up or shut up!

    • srylands 23.1

      Here you go:

      New Zealand’s economic performance over the last six decades has been poor compared
      with most other Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) countries.

      Theory and evidence suggest that high levels of government expenditure, as a share of the
      economy, can be detrimental to economic growth due to the economic costs of raising
      taxation to finance expenditure

      Economic theory suggests that a large government may undermine economic growth
      through the cost of financing expenditure and differences in the rate of productivity growth
      between the public and private sector.

      A number of countries have smaller governments than New Zealand, including Australia and South Korea, with the larger governments generally being European.

      Click to access 64_Cook.pdf

      The classic natural experiment is North and South Korea. North Korean economic policies are remarkably similar to those expounded by many The Standard contributors. Didn’t work so well.

      The other example is Australia – much smaller government over the last 30 years compared to NZ, with deeper more competitive markets – The country has a population 5 x NZ’s but the sharemarket is 30x larger. Says it all. (Another reason we desperately need 100% privatisation asap)

      And of course New Zealanders vote with their feet by moving there in large numbers.

      • tricledrown 23.1.1

        Schrilands BS Australia smaller govt than NZ what absolute tossing lies.
        Australia has out grown NZ because of cheaper housing better family tax credits concentrated population bigger govt subsidies tougher tarrifs Capital gains tax mining mining and mining!
        Australia has a far bigger govt than us lower house upper house state govts wow!
        You are just plain lying
        Ok you will be rushed into the front bench of National Monday morning born leader liar!

        • srylands

          Australia smaller govt than NZ what absolute tossing lies.” Tosser.

          Bloody hell – you people don’t let facts get in the way do you? Australia has a much smaller government share of GDP than NZ – that includes ALL levels of government. In 2011 Australia had a government sector = 34% of GDP – in NZ it was 44%. The trend over the last 30 years has been for an overall widening of the gap.

          And of course because government is smaller overall tax take is smaller too.

          Mining explains a relatively small proportion of Australia’s economic performance – the resources boom was a help but it has been the services sector that has driven growth.

          But feel free to ignore facts and carry on with your prejudices. Australia has grown despite some negative policies like PMV subsidies – NOT because of them

          Look at figure 8 in this report:


          Australian government expenditure – at all levels of government has been between 5 and 10% of GDP SMALLER than NZ for 30 years. And the gap is increasing.


          It says a lot that you think the opposite is correct.

          • tricledrown

            shrilands thats federal spending. mining has been booming for the last thirty years their population is concentrated which is cheaper to provide services.
            that is federal govt spending it does not include state govt spending then when you look at the size of govt spending per person, Australia out spends us take mining out of the equation and your figures will look sick, unemployment has been higher in Australia most of that time
            Australia spends more on health welfare defence infrastructure per head than we do!
            The size of the Australian economy allows them to spend more on all fronts than us.
            Another reason is health insurance and compulsory super savings aren’t included!
            Compulsory super savings has cut the amount of govt super paid out as well!
            Now the mining boom is over Australia is hitting the skids NZ will feel the effects!
            Australia has way more tarrifs than us as well!
            Where Australia is making faster gains is in education they spend way more than us Australian have better access to tertiary education with much better performing universities.

            • srylands

              “that is federal govt spending it does not include state govt spending” WRONG

              Really? BTW I wish you would use punctuation.

              It includes ALL government spending, including state spending net of intergovernmental transfers.

              Australia has smaller government.

              Of course it spends more per head – it is a richer country.

              This is just a silly debate about something that is factual.

              • McFlock

                it is funny that you seem to attribute australia’s growth due to a single crude and highly debateable measure, while ignoring the many other factors that might also contribute to growth (including economies of scale: “Australia has smaller government.
                Of course it spends more per head – it is a richer country” – and bigger in every way).

                You can’t explain (let alone predict) a substantial part of a massive chaotic system with a single abstract measure. It’s just stupid to try.

              • Colonial Viper

                Factual? More like stupid and irrelevant. NZ is poorer than most other OECD countries because we were idiots and followed the neolib free market prescription to the letter.

                The fact you can’t see that is a serious problem undermining all your ongoing natter about what to do next.

                Australia has smaller government.

                Of course it spends more per head – it is a richer country.

                Billions of NZD have been extracted out of NZ workers and companies to feed Australian bank shareholders over the last few years.

                Of course the Aussies are doing it right.

                • srylands

                  NZ is poorer than most other OECD countries because we have a poor productivity record. The policy response to that has been well covered by the Treasury.

                  Even if Labour wins the next election they will get with the programme and follow most of these policies. e.g say goodbye to NZ Power.


                  • McFlock

                    Listening to treasury is what fucked up the country in the first place. More of the same will merely continue the same trends.

                    • srylands

                      Really? You know which of the Treasury’s policy recommendations have been accepted by governments? You are really clear on that? I doubt you eben know what they are.

                    • McFlock

                      Other way around: if treasury is indeed consistent with your deranged political lens, then we can pick which policies were at least partial treasury recommendations. Privatisation, deregulation, removal of workers’ rights, and blaming the poor.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Using high levels of unemployment as a tool to control inflation.

                    • srylands

                      It is simple:

                      “Productivity is the biggest long-run determinant of wages and living standards.”

                      It is productivity stupid.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      not about productivity; productivity is a crock

                      why should a worker bother to participate in “productivity” improvement when time and again its the worker who gets screwed by changes while the fat cat owners take 98c out of every new dollar generated.

                      its about share of income – too much now in the hands of owners, corporates and shareholders, not enough in the hands of ordinary workers and citizens

                    • srylands

                      “not about productivity; productivity is a crock”

                      I’m not going to try again. That is such an idiotic claim.

                      The CTU recognises that productivity is central to prosperity. Sure they might have different views to Treasury about HOW to lift productivity but they also will have a lot in common, and the CTU would certainly not say “productivity is a crock”.


                      “Improving productivity has been identified as a key factor for New Zealand’s long term, sustainable economic growth and prosperity. Productivity levels affect our living standards, our ability to create jobs and our ability to afford education, health and other services.”

                      New Zealand Council of Trade Unions – Te Kauae Kaimahi

                    • McFlock

                      It is simple:

                      “Productivity is the biggest long-run determinant of wages and living standards.”

                      It is productivity stupid.

                      Your quote is as stupid as saying “humidity is the biggest long run determinant of precipitation”.

                      In a chaotic system, no single factor can be the deterimant of a desired outcome. In fact, the same input of that “determinant” can have dramatically different outcomes depending on what every single other factor is doing.

                  • tricledrown

                    Treasury is wrong again treasury is loaded with right wing purists.
                    You look at every single industry in NZ and ask if they are improving productivity they are!
                    treasury is a right wing think tank subsidized by the tax payer.

              • tricledrown

                Shrilands I wasn’t wrong STATE TAXES ie stamp duties land tax Varying state payroll taxes are not included in the OECD figure’s nor are3.5% + medicare contrbutions nor are compulsory 9% super contributions .so by the time you add those contributions into the overall figures theirs not a lot of difference!
                Campbell live looked at that last week came to the same conclusion!
                Manurfacturing has declined by 70% since the 1960’s 60% of Australia’s economy is service Industry.

              • tricledrown

                Shril more lies from you federal govt taxes Aprox A$ 340 billion out $1008 billion
                33% aprox as you have pointed out
                State pay roll ,land taxes, stamp duties not included!
                super contributions not included as they are seen as private investments
                Medicare contributions not included as they are private contributions
                We pay all of that to one govt so your facts are bullshit!

      • Poission 23.1.2

        Please Australia also has an additional layer of GVT state which increases its governance ratio above NZ

      • tricledrown 23.1.3

        Schrilands what was liar key in south Korea for recently was it to get them to allow our exports in to their country!

        • srylands

          “what was liar key in south Korea for recently was it to get them to allow our exports in to their country!”


      • McFlock 23.1.4

        If smaller government is so great for the country, why is it that unemployment and inequality skyrocketed at the same time the NZ cut the size of its govt around 1990?

        It’s all very well saying that smaller government is better for the country, but that means shit if you have no job and can’t afford to put shoes on your kids’ feet. In fact, it’s more like your “economic theory” isn’t so much a better economy as it is throwing as many people under the bus as possible, and then blaming them for being unemployed or otherwise in need.

      • Murray Olsen 23.1.5

        Australia has a higher minimum wage, something like a partially functioning union movement, a huge number of government subsidies to business, government investment in infrastructure, mineral resources that they exploit regardless of environmental and social cost, an apprenticeship program, government gifts to first home buyers, and far more government bureaucracy than NZ. Hardly a model for us to follow, but more successful in purely economic terms. Oh, and while Kiwi workers do a lot of the heavy lifting over there, Kiwi executives powder their noses at bars next to the Sydney Harbour and complain about how we want to care for our environment, all while spouting their Randian delusions. Cocaine does that, it makes people delusional. It’s almost as bad as neoliberal economics.

  23. Pasupial 24

    “Fonterra yesterday announced three batches of a whey protein called WPC80, manufactured in May last year, may have been contaminated by a dirty pipe at the company’s Hautapu plant”

    So if there was another contamination event this instant, we wouldn’t know about it till October 2014 earliest?

    “Fonterra said it initially identified a potential quality issue in March this year, when a product tested positive for Clostridium”

    Link: http://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/267332/fonterra-products-hit-botulism-scare

    But they can’t even tell us what country and products contain the fouled whey 3 months later? This is bad on so many levels.

    • Saarbo 24.1

      You are right. Given the time to discover the contamination I would have thought a lot more product may have been contaminated.

  24. Mary 25

    Judith Collins is talking absolute drivel when she says the government can’t intervene in the Teina Pora issue.


    She says:

    “New Zealand has an independent, highly regarded judiciary, with a robust appeal process for people who feel they have been wrongly convicted,”


    “It would be completely inappropriate for a Minister of the Crown to interfere in the court process.”

    This is complete and utter bile. If anyone thinks Key’s full of lies and deceit and has ongoing and total contempt for the intelligence of our citizens, then they should know we’d be in for far more of Collins ever became PM.

    Andrew Little has rightly pointed out that the appeal hasn’t been lodged yet. But even if it had there’d still be nothing to stop the government looking into whether there were grounds to put things right. The Crown would (or at least should) in fact be doing this if and when the need to prepare for an appeal arose.

    Ultimately there’s absolutely nothing stopping the Crown looking at the case again because it would be done with a view to being of benefit to Teina Pora. For example, a party in any litigation can choose to agree with the arguments of the other side. This is how parties to litigation reach settlement!

    Judith Collins is wholly disingenuous in trying to spin the line that it would be inappropriate for the government to “intervene” in the Pora case. Doing so is not “intervening” – if there’s prina facie injustice she in fact has a duty to act. What she’s in effect saying is that the government does not have the power to fix an injustice. That’s plainly wrong. I’d go further to say it’s just darn right nasty, uncaring, cold and inhuman. Heaven help us if she’s ever PM.

    • Murray Olsen 25.1

      Her redneck voters will look at the guy and say “So what if he didn’t do this one. Being in prison will have stopped him committing other offences.” The vileness inherent in their thought processes knows no bounds.

      • Mary 25.1.1

        Her supporters would be saying that. It’d be good if MSM challenged her on her flawed logic and lack of principle. It always amazes me when lawyers try to do what she’s doing because it shows she’s prepared to use personal bias and adherence to ideological dogma to override established public service ethics and basic legal principle. It’s sometimes difficult to know precisely how in particular cases this happens. I don’t know Collins well enough to say whether she could be called a narcissist or not, but it’s pretty clear a lot of the signs are there.

      • North 25.1.2

        I know the type Murray Olsen. All hot pontification about cases and lives they know absolutely nothing of. Larry-Loudmouth-Williams-Radio-Live style.

        But wait until it’s one of their own entitled little bastards in the dock. The most innovative excuses and rationalisations when it’s one of their own little bastards in the dock.

        And of course it would be madness, what’s more patently unjust, for other than a rehabilitative sentence to be handed down. “We want counselling for this boy right now ! Blah Blah Blah !”.

        Dealt with the type thousands of times. Thick socially retarded fuckwits.

    • North 25.2

      Collins is right in the first instance and it’s routine stuff…….while the case is in progress…….etc etc.

      I’m not absolutely sure where it’s at so far but I recall hearing mention of application for the exercise of the royal prerogative, a pardon. Seemingly because there appears to be no taste for it in the government (Collins) it is now heading to the Privy Council. Because of Collins, Collins can say – “case in progress……” Technically.

      A cry-off of course. Given that Judith is so absorbed in her Thatcher pretensions we cannot reasonably expect any other response. The same personal trait led her to all sorts of extraordinary overtness (and the spending of a rather large amount of public money) re the Binnie report.

      You see this is a 17 year old (now 38), never amounted to much, Maori boy with a criminal record. Yes, in the slammer for 21 years. And yes, a fact which senior police officers, damn, the Police Association, are calling to be investigated. Unprecedented.

      I’d like to think that Judith would agree he’s entitled to a pardon as matter of urgency and twenty, no thirty million. If you can put a price on it at all…….

      There’s the rub. The Justice Sow values the money and fears the ignominy of having to concede, more than putting right the travesty. After all………we’re only talking Maori boy criminal underclass here……..

      • Mary 25.2.1

        “Collins is right in the first instance and it’s routine stuff…….while the case is in progress…….etc etc.”

        With respect, that’s not quite the case. If an injustice is identified the Crown can choose to address it at any point, regardless of whether an appeal has been lodge, is being contemplated or not. This, of course, makes sense: if the Crown has done something to someone it later realises it shouldn’t have it has every ability to fix it. What’s also important to note is that this is over and above the Royal Prerogative, which is different again. You’re right in that Pora’s off to the PC because government isn’t listening, which highlights further Collins’ lie that her hands are tied because the matter’s “with the courts”. This is a particularly large amount of shit coming out of Collins’ mouth this time, probably more than usual, and which the nature of has got me thinking about whether she’s narcissistic.

        • North

          I agree entirely Mary. Don’t misunderstand me. I’m identifying that Collins is technically right in one part alone of the broad legal picture.

          Of course it is from there that Collins chooses to speak.

          The “speak” is rubbish as a disguise or excuse for this boy not already having a pardon.

          All of the Thatcher disdain mentioned above is true. As are the reasons for that disdain.

          Florists usually like flowers, jockeys horses, dancers dancing.

          How come this Minister of Justice has a problem with you know what ?

          Anyway, thanks to Jonathan Krebs counsel for Teina Pora – personal commitment to get the case to London for the Privy Council irrespective of insufficiency if any of legal aid grant. Would gladly contribute.

          • Mary

            Thanks North. I guess my point is that I think Collins is not technically correct on anything she’s saying on this particular issue. What is the “one part alone of the broad legal picture” you’re saying she’s technically right about?

  25. Murray Olsen 26

    I hope you can see this. It’s Teina Pora’s daughter, who has more dignity in her left nostril than the whole of the NAct caucus:


  26. North 27

    Hi Mary. My apprehension was that the Privy Council appeal was already underway and accordingly Collins was technically able to invoke sub-judice even though that amounted to a sidestepping of the huge justice issue here. Sub-Judy-Say. Horrors !

    Then I see from the Herald this morning that the appeal is not yet underway and that Collins is now prepared to consider a formal investigation. Something she was always able to engage of course, had she the will to do so.

    So yes, my assessment of Collins’ behaviour is unjustifiably charitable. For my part I simply cannot understand how a minister responsible for “Justice” could drag her heels in this unprecedented case………concerns of senior police officers, the Police Association, forensic pshychiatric evidence etc etc.

    All that aside a gathering momentum now appears. Hopefully it is such that even the Justice Sow cannot stem it. Who knows ? The minister’s “doing the numbers” in what is already something of a cause celebre might well persuade her to make like donning the cloak of “justice” rather than deviously obstruct.

    All power to Teina Pora ! And once he is free, all power to a very high level ministerial or other enquiry to identify the how and whom in this travesty. And fix on a truly awesome sum in compensation.

    There should be no hiding in the thickets of extant legislation (if any) to artificially limit the level of compensation. There must be special legislation if necessary. Mmmmm…….that’s where this minister is bound to be a problem.

    Notwithstanding their pious talk Justice and Truth are basically malleable concepts to this crowd. Money and how they “look” is their real imperative. The evil unleashed on Teina Pora is surpassed only by the evil extinguishment of Susan Burdett’s life. It is our duty as a nation to make truly conspicuous amends, mindful that compensation of whatever striking level can never truly displace the evil Teina Pora has suffered.


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