Open mike 04/11/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 4th, 2013 - 227 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmike

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy). Step right up to the mike…

227 comments on “Open mike 04/11/2013”

  1. (this one is interesting..)

    http://www.alternet.org/activism/revolution-mind-underway

    “..Revolutionary changes that once seemed impossible –

    – can suddenly become possible..”

    phillip ure..

    • Tiger Mountain 1.1

      Another take on the marxist view of the “subjective” factor long being a major impediment to necessary revolutionary change while “objective” factors–the material bleeding obvious state of a world on the brink indicates that need.

      Does our social being determine our thinking or vice versa? Luckily some people break the mold like many scientists and political activists. ‘Mortgage captives’ certainly need to wake up and join them. Societal breakdown is not that far away when you look at our road rage cities, supermarkets with 2–3 day stocks, digital banking systems etc.

      • Colonial Viper 1.1.1

        Petrol stations which cannot operate pumps in a power cut.

        • Tiger Mountain 1.1.1.1

          You beat me to it Viper, read the pump article after posting. A city going ‘down’ would soon become a landlocked version of a powerless cruise liner. As Christchurch people would know well.

          After years of living in the North with tanks full of rain water and seafood across the road such thoughts do surface when living in the super city. VTOs observation is what one of my farm owning mates (across water from Whangarei) always gets worried about when there is a bird flu scare or whatever. Wind, solar, water tanks and gardens are the way to go.

          • vto 1.1.1.1.1

            Know of a few people in east Chch who have built in such resilience post-earthquake… So that they can survive almost indefinitely without wider support. Of course any such people or dwellings will also be sought out by the starving hordes in such circumstances…..

      • vto 1.1.2

        “Societal breakdown is not that far away when you look at our road rage cities, supermarkets with 2–3 day stocks, digital banking systems etc.”

        Yep, never has society been more fragile given the weaknesses that are inherent in most of our systems today. It will only be realised when it happens unfortunately.

        Have always said that the most scary person to be in this situation would be a farmer within 50km of a major population centre – lotsa new friends arriving to eat his sheep… and fuck all he can do about it… if he values his life …..

        never mind, couldn’t happen here, nah, not in nz, got a nice house, good neighbours, shiny New World down te road, gotta go to work, put out of mind, smell the roses…

        • Tat Loo (CV) 1.1.2.1

          Have always said that the most scary person to be in this situation would be a farmer within 50km of a major population centre –lotsa new friends arriving to eat his sheep… and fuck all he can do about it… if he values his life …..

          You a city lad or a farming lad? You have many friends in the city who are a crack shot with a .223? Or who know how to skin and gut a deer?

          Personally, I’d back the farmer, his couple of mates and the farm hand over any rabble from the city, just so you know.

          • vto 1.1.2.1.1

            Plenty – probably more per km2 than in rural areas but I don’t think it would pan out like that…. but terrible subject and unpleasant to consider anyway, sorry..

            • Tat Loo (CV) 1.1.2.1.1.1

              I reckon New Zealanders usually know how to work these things out between themselves for the best, anyways.

          • vto 1.1.2.1.2

            Why would the farmer defend his flock? When society has broken down like that? What would he do with them anyway? Put them on the non-existent freighter to a UK supermarche?

            And if his mates are helping him then who is looking after his mates farms? Does that not leave them open?

            And the description of thousands (probably tens of thousands) approaching starvation as “rabble from the city” I think misses the situation and various more unpleasant characteristics of the human bean entirely.

            It is an unpleasant subject but its reality as a possibility should be considered in light of the fragility of our society…. in particular the fact that supermarkets and cities have only 2-3 days of supplies at hand.

            • Tiger Mountain 1.1.2.1.2.1

              My 2–3 days come from Civil Defence people I have talked to and that may not include panic buying by some.

              Lets be optimistic though and keep on trucking for positive change as many of us Standard commenters do in real life.

          • greywarbler 1.1.2.1.3

            Tat
            Farmers now can’t cope with the determined animal thieving either dead or being trucked off. We don’t hear about it very often because our news choosers don’t bother about this sort of important information getting to the general public. I think that Scott Guy case revealed an iceberg of dirty dealings in rural areas.

            You might hear it on the rural news on Radionz but because of the silo system they have it’s not so likely in the national news. That gets taken up with readings of victims statements after court cases. So emotional and caring.

          • Puckish Rogue 1.1.2.1.4

            Sorry no you’re wrong, well its good in theory that will happen the problem is most rabble stick together and have an inflated sense of entitlement: “you have what we want so we’ll take it”

            Which means there’ll be one helluva lot of people sticking together vs very few farmers looking after a lot of land meaning it would be very difficult to defend and if you’re defending one farm what happens if another group goes to your farm…

            You only need to see what happens in other countries when it all turns to crap to see what happens though I dare say a farmer near a small town will do better

            • Naturesong 1.1.2.1.4.1

              I think you’re confusing ‘entitlement’ with desperation, or starvation.

              The effect being that it makes your use of that word to elicit an emotional response and thereby influence opinion less effective.

              Carry on

              • weka

                “I think you’re confusing ‘entitlement’ with desperation, or starvation.”

                People with a sense of entitlement will do things differently when desperate than those without. Having a sense of entitlement isn’t necessarily a bad thing of course.

            • weka 1.1.2.1.4.2

              Hmmm, lots of different variables here that people are glossing over. How fast a collapse happens will be a big determiner in what happens after that. I wonder if a very fast collapse (as in, running out of supermarket food) will see most big city folk sitting tight, waiting for the authorities to sort it out, and then by the time they are starving they won’t have the energy to walk very far. The more resilient people will get out straight away. The less resilient that make it to farm land, won’t know how to catch a sheep let alone kill and find a way to eat it that doesn’t make them sick.

              “You only need to see what happens in other countries when it all turns to crap to see what happens though I dare say a farmer near a small town will do better”

              Where are you thinking? Because three the most immediate examples that spring to mind suggest that we might be ok. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, the country people did relatively ok, it was the city people that had a hard time. In Cuba, which went through a kind of Peak Oil in a year, the general population did well. People got hungry at times, no-one starved, and the general health of the country improved. In a more acute situation, the resiliency of city communities in Iraq during the invasion was pretty impressive eg when the local authorities collapsed, the people previously employed in the power companies kept some of the electricity supply going without getting paid (for obvious reasons). The banks closed, but quickly a street level of banking started up. Humans are naturally co-operative and evolutionarily adapted to work in community. I don’t mean that terrible things wouldn’t happen (they happen already), but that it’s not a given that we would all turn into single units fighting for survival. The ‘Man Alone’ myth in NZ has a lot to answer for.

              I live in the South Island and just see huge numbers of resilient and creatively skilled people, so I tend towards Tat’s view.

              The more we think these things through now, and start putting practices and infrastructure in place, the better we will handle what happens. There are people in NZ have been doing this for a very long time, and now there are lots of people doing it. We need to reach a certain percentage of the population, not sure how many that is.

              I also think this is geographical within NZ. I think mostly about Dunedin in terms of a big city because it’s the one I am most familiar with and it’s closest to where I live. But the issues for coastal Otago will be very different than those for say Auckland.

              • karol

                I don’t know why everyone is assuming all us city folk will be after the farm animals in the country come the apocalypse. I can’t remember the last time I ate any animal meat.

                But I do know a lot of city/suburban folk who are pretty good fruit & veggie gardeners. I’d hang close with them and the places where water can be collected. Leave the others to fight to the death over farm animals.

                • weka

                  It takes a long time to grow vegetable food karol. People will easily starve before they can grow a potato or apple. I think vto’s point was that in a relatively fast collapse people are going to be after the meat once the supermarkets run out.

                  “But I do know a lot of city/suburban folk who are pretty good fruit & veggie gardeners. I’d hang close with them and the places where water can be collected.”

                  When people talk about there being 3 days of food in the supermarkets, I haven’t seen the analysis of actual food country wide outside of supermarkets (as in gardens, market gardens etc), but I suspect that it’s not great. Most cultures traditionaly have relied on storing food. We don’t do that locally very well and much of it is reliant on freezing and refrigeration.

                  There are a couple of other issues here. One is that most (as in nearly all) of our food production relies on long distance transport. No petrol = no food. The other is that fruit and veggies don’t sustain people for very long. You need fats, protein and complex carbs too. Most vegan protein in NZ is imported (beans etc). Cheese and milk will fail pretty quickly without petrol except in small rural areas. Nuts are seasonal or locked up in storage. Lots of people will subsist for quite some time just on carbs, but where is all the wheat going to come from? (not from home gardeners). We are all very vulnerable when it comes to food, including vegetarians.

                  Even with a longer time frame for collapse (as in the Cuba scenario), you still need to get food production localised very quickly. I agree that there are lots of good gardeners still in NZ, but we need these skills much more widely spread within the population.

                  • greywarbler

                    I think that people with veges might find when they get up in the morning that all the veges are out of the ground and away. Even before they are fully developed. Then what. People don’t have trouble applying linear rationality – I am hungry, they have a lot of food, my need is greater than theirs. Therefore I am entitled to help myself and take it all so we have some for later.

                  • karol

                    OK. Thanks, weka.

                    Then we need to be looking at longer term food production. I actually don’t think relying on sheep and cows is the answer either. I would rather we were looking at how local communities could be self-sustaining.

                    How difficult is it to grow the required beans and/or nuts, grains etc in NZ?

                    • weka

                      Not hard at all in technical horticultural/gardening terms karol. We already grow grains and nuts well, and the alternative people are starting to grow legumes. But getting people to grow them at a large enough scale to feed local populations, there are substantial economic and structural barriers, due to how farmers and gardeners are forced into systems that benefit capitalism, and how people are channeled into buying from supermarkets. For those that can afford to, supporting Farmers Markets, vege box schemes, CSAs, gate sales, retailers that prioritise local produce etc, is very helpful.

                      On the bright side, in a medium paced collapse scenario we would quickly stop exporting food we grow and be able to eat it ourselves.

                      Sheep and cows are important for wool and leather too, as well as diary. In Cuba they farmed animals like rabbits, and ate a lot less meat.

                      If we ate the whole animal (edible parts), we would need less animals, and there would be more land/resources for growing other kinds of foods.

                    • greywarbler

                      If there was a world problem and we couldn’t get the food we need we might still have to export food that we need here, because of the contracts that were set up to supply stuff to others. And they would say they need it too.

              • Ennui

                I live among-st plenty….plenty for me to feed myself anyway. But it would not be if I had to share with the rest of Wellington. And even if we did a Cuba how many of us would have the skills? Maybe we should reprogram ourselves historically: plague, famine disease are only (in a historic sense) banned from our expectations. They are merely resting in the antechamber awaiting to re-enter the door.

                • weka

                  How much plague, famine and disease did pre-European NZ experience?

                  Everyone has skills. Not everyone has to grow food, lots of other things that need to be done too. Learning how to trade equitably will be a big community-wide need.

                  • Naturesong

                    I’m wondering how many Ann Rand deciples would suddenly become “eaters” and have to rely on those of us that have the knowledge to grow food, raise and butcher animals, husband bees etc

    • Rogue Trooper 1.2

      Climate Change + War, Starvation, Poverty, Flooding, and Disease
      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/international-politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503226&objectid=11150809
      -world-wide fall in incomes
      -a more violent, diseased, poorer future.

      IPCC

  2. Maureen 2

    Patrick Gower ‏@patrickgowernz 19h
    Labour has introduced a female quota system that will see men demoted down the party list at expense of females

    How is it that a leading news organisation can have such a biased political editor? I kind of know the answer to that question but it still astounds me.

    • Paul 2.1

      He’s the Sean Hannity of New Zealand

    • bad12 2.2

      The Alfred.E. Nuemann of political reporting Gower, TV3 and Media-Works in a free society are obviously free to broadcast,(subject to complaints) whatever they like which would seem to include out-right lies as ‘The News’,

      What tho worries me is that TV3 and Media-Works gain funding from the State via NZ on Air which is said to be the difference between those entities remaining solvent or not,(this in my mind imparts to Media-Works a duty to report political matters in a fair and balanced manner),

      i will suggest again that an incoming Government of the left ensure that all NZ on Air funding for this organization be stopped, if the organization wants to be one that favors the political right over the political left then they should be made to fund their own political broadcasts…

      • Maureen 2.2.1

        I suppose we can say that John Campbell provides some sort of balance because the issues he reports on are more likely to be taken seriously by the left.

        As far as the gender issue goes, I thought a political editor might be able to put it in a broader context by looking at other countries who aim for 50% representation by women. It’s not as if these policies came down in the last shower. Norway?

        • framu 2.2.1.1

          “I suppose we can say that John Campbell provides some sort of balance” – you could say that, but its missing the point a bit

          its not the campbell and gower balance each other out (which they dont) – its that gower actively practices spin, fabrication and generally interviews his own opinion instead of anything even vaguely like journalism.

          Im no JC fan boy, and sometimes i find campbell live misses the mark – but hes far more of a journalist compared to “i just made some shit up” gower

          Its not so much left vs right – its journalism vs made up bullshit

        • Ad 2.2.1.2

          We should not worry quite so hard. Labour stories are dominating the airwaves like they haven’t for years.

          The gender story is immensely softened and will play well in the longer term next year.

          The insurance story will run and run.

          And the housing and Christchurch rebuild stories are money for jam.

          The MSM have so few factional fight stories now that they have to argue about policy. This is a massive shift. We are gonig to torn Paddy and the rest into policy wonks.

          The only trick left is to frame policy into stories that bounce right. That’s a job for the media team in the Leaders’ office.

          • BM 2.2.1.2.1

            The gender story is immensely softened and will play well in the longer term next year.

            http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/
            O’rly?

            The Man Ban will be such an albatross around the neck of labour, face facts the election is already lost.

            • Ad 2.2.1.2.1.1

              Best of luck with that.
              We know where our votes come from.

              • BM

                Honestly, I know you guys don’t see it or refuse to see it.
                But the Man ban is just like the anti smacking, light bubs, shower head stuff that destroyed the last Labour government.

                This shit is voter poison on steroids, Key must be walking around today with a grin a mile wide.

                • McFlock

                  That would make a change from the tired, bored, and slightly cranky look he’s had on his face for most of this year’s media conferences.

                • amirite

                  BM – Oh yeah, all these things are waaaay worse than the wholesale spying Key has sold us to.

                • David H

                  Really BM so why are you the only one going on about a so called man Ban?

                  • jaymam

                    Well I’ll go on about it too. Choosing MPs by gender or sexual orientation or any other category is an extremely stupid thing for Labour to do. Go on, have a separate article about this and invite comments and a vote, I dare The Standard. As an LEC member I have participated in the choice of candidates for the Labour list (and also the Green list). Members should choose the best people for the job.

            • Te Reo Putake 2.2.1.2.1.2

              If the election is already lost, then your work here is done, BM. Come back again in 12 months and let’s see how that plays out, eh?

              ps, can I suggest that hysterical use of the phrase ‘man ban’ and claiming that its electoral poison falls in to the category of ‘panicdotal evidence’?

      • David H 2.2.2

        I see they are going to cancel Nightline, and put on Paul Henry. Talk about dumbing down.

      • Watching 2.2.3

        i will suggest again that an incoming Government of the left ensure that all NZ on Air funding for this organization be stopped, if the organization wants to be one that favors the political right over the political left then they should be made to fund their own political broadcasts…

        Bad12 You have never stated whether you have lived and worked in a country whereby the state controls the media by ownership or by fear. I don’t mean travelling or viewing their media from the outside but living their on a daily basis for a reasonable period – f.. even the sports comments were controlled. In my case I am not referring to the UK/Aus/US type of countries

        Your comments raises two points:

        1. The next step from funding control is editorship – there is nothing for free.

        2. If we accept your idea then the flip side is that the right can also impend this policy when they return to office with one subtle change. I guess BM would have Campbell cancelled within a week.

        The problem with living in a democracy is the Bad12 see the media favouring the political right while BM and his mates see the media as the voice of the political left. It just a view & if the government interferes in the media we no longer have a democracy. It either funding for both sides or no-one.

        Sorry Bad12 you write some good stuff at times but not this one.

    • Sanctuary 2.3

      Gower is absolutely obsessed with this issue. I wonder why? Is he a closet transgender? Does he dress up in women’s clothes when he is at home? Why on earth does it get him so excited? He carries on like it is the biggest scandal since Watergate, when the rest the country doesn’t give a toss.

    • Saarbo 2.4

      Gower is a disgrace.

  3. bad12 3

    We can debate the pro’s and con’s of the State establishing and owning an insurance company ad nauseum, probably in terms of today’s political landscape point to such a policy as a radical departure from the Neo-liberal norm which it obvious is if you have no knowledge of the 1970’s the peak years for Government ‘ownership’ of all sorts of business,

    What of the politics tho, 2 weeks befor David Cunliffe’s Conference announcement Winston Peters came out of the NZFirst Conference loudly proclaiming ‘the bottom line’ for any Party seeking the support of NZFirst after the 2014 election would be that very same thing, the establishment and ownership of an insurance company by the Government,

    Labour and David Cunliffe could hardly have failed to have noticed that except for the name, where a comic might suggest Labour have inserted an ass into the policy, the policy, Winston’s bottom line, are the same,

    The political signal???, on the surface we have the makings of a coalition arrangement between Labour and NZFirst after November 2014 that has little in the way of impediment bar the number of Cabinet positions needed to keep NZFirst intact and reasonably happy,

    Of course if we were to see a conspiracy around every ballot box we might begin to suspect that David Cunliffe in a cunning move has reached out a large hand to NZFirst voters with the question, ‘why vote for the insurance company offered by the sMall party when you can vote for exactly the same from the bigger party’, after all on the current numbers,(as i see them), if Labour can reach across and half inch a small part of NZFirst’s voting support effectively leaving that Party below the 5% thresh-hold this would guarantee, in the carve up of the remaining NZFirst vote when the election night numbers are crunched, a Labour/Green Government,

    Of course there is also another scenario where ‘the plan’ is to present after 2014 a Labour/NZFirst bloc to the Green Party attempting to formulate a coalition with the Green Party giving ‘confidence and supply’ similar i might add as the cozy arrangement of the previous Labour Government…

    • Paul 3.1

      Solution…vote Green to keep Labour honest.

    • Ad 3.2

      The options need to be kept open at this stage in case numbers change of the minor parties in the next 12 months. Who knows maybe the Greens and NZFirst will have to figure out how to work together if they want power.

      • Naturesong 3.2.1

        Pretty sure the greens can work with Winston as long as he doesn’t act like a complete fuckwit.

        • Ad 3.2.1.1

          Certainly you can count on Winston to change his mind. Also helpful to see Norman fold like origami on printing money. 😉

          Perhaps agreement won’t be as hard as one imagines.

          • bad12 3.2.1.1.1

            Fold???, pragmatic politics from Russell Norman once He realized Labour had no stomach for engaging in what is now mainstream economic practice by a number of major economies,

            Nationals 80 billion dollar debt mountain simply hamstrings the following Government forcing that Government to raise taxes or ‘do nothing’ thus leading it away from longevity,

            National and Labour’s borrowing intentions simply leads to the impoverishment of the next generation to pay for the comfortable lifestyle of today and/or the injection of the IMF into the country running our economic and social policy…

            • Ad 3.2.1.1.1.1

              Fold. Like origami.
              You’re too easy to tease.

              The Greens need to get back into the ring.

              • Tat Loo

                Correct. The Greens had 20 months of relatively easy training and looking good. Now its time for them to step up to the 2014 championship fight.

                National is already gearing up, big time.

                Norman should have stuck to his guns for a little bit longer to make the point – the NZ Government has a monopoly on the creation of NZ Dollars. It can do so whenever it likes, in order to move real resources and people where they need to be.

              • bad12

                Ad, stupid comment of the day, who carried the Opposition fight to National scoring the hits while David Shearer tried to learn how to string more than 6 words of the English language together as one coherent sentence…

            • Draco T Bastard 3.2.1.1.1.2

              RN knows how the monetary system works, knows that it really needs to be changed and knows that Labour won’t do a damn thing to change it.

              National and Labour’s borrowing intentions simply leads to the impoverishment of the next generation to pay for the comfortable lifestyle of today and/or the injection of the IMF into the country running our economic and social policy…

              QFT

              The government should never borrow money as it is sovereign and thus can print all the money it needs. Along side this the government needs to stop the private banks from creating money.

          • Naturesong 3.2.1.1.2

            It’s not about printing money as much as who should do it: http://blog.greens.org.nz/2013/05/27/private-money-printing-takes-off-again/

            At the time Dr Norman floated the idea it would have performed three key positives;
            1. Kick started inflation which was below the reserve banks target (was abour 0.1% iirc),
            2. Helped stabilise the exchange rate, and potentially saved a significant portion of the 40k manufacturing jobs that went to the wall over the last 18 months
            3. Resulted in a much lower govt debt that will now have to be paid back via taxes.

            It was dropped because conditions started to change (inflation started to rise, and the govt borrowed the money – that someone else printed).
            And it became politically untenable; an effective tool trashed so a cheap political point could be scored by national.

            • Draco T Bastard 3.2.1.1.2.1

              +1

              National have much to answer for in their trashing of our economy. Actually, so does Labour as they’ve not been doing enough to highlight just how National have been trashing it and they’re not going to make the necessary changes to bring it back into balance.

        • bad12 3.2.1.2

          Yes, looking at the relevant policy positions on a lot of the economic stuff to me is like looking at ‘the Generation Gap’, both the Green Party and NZFirst are saying much the same thing while perhaps proposing to arrive at the same objective by differing means…

        • David H 3.2.1.3

          Well make him Foreign Minister again he was very good in that job last time. It would also keep him traveling as well.

    • Francis 3.3

      I thought NZ First’s bottom-line policy was a government-run KiwiSaver scheme…

      Though I do know that a publicly owned insurance company was also one of their policies. Both of them are good ideas.

  4. vto 4

    How on earth will Cunliffe built 10,000 houses in Christchurch in 4 years?

    It is not possible.

    simply
    not
    possible

    and raises questions around his credibility if he goes around promising silly shit like that..

    • BM 4.1

      Problem with Cunliffe is that he believes his own bull shit and that makes him a very dangerous man.

      • risildowgtn 4.1.1

        Better than people believing Key’s own bullshit when you can tell he doesnt with those deadpan eyes

        • Jim Nald 4.1.1.1

          Ok, the Natz’ Sesame Street word-for-the-day is “dangerous”. This comes after a few that have been tossed off such as “extreme narcissist” , “over the top”, “slight smugness”, etc.

      • Ad 4.1.2

        Surprisingly the polls are saying that more and more of New Zealand do as well.
        See you in November and weep into your beer.

      • Pascal's bookie 4.1.3

        “Problem with Cunliffe is that he believes his own bull shit and that makes him a very dangerous man.”

        Wait, I thought he was a two faced prick who said anything?

        • Jim Nald 4.1.3.1

          “two faced … anything”

          I thought John Key’s supposed blind trust bought that one already for his political epitaph. Or is he wanting to sell his stake on that down to 49% ?

      • greywarbler 4.1.4

        Problem with BM is that he believes his own bull shit and that makes him a very
        destructive, conniving man.

    • Colonial Viper 4.2

      Labour’s policy with KiwiBuild has been 100,000 houses in 10 years. I suppose Labour thought that 25% of those builds around ChCh could be done.

      • vto 4.2.1

        I think the policy is bold and should be aimed at with all resources. But some tempering of enthusiasm with reality should probably take place. 2,500 extra houses per year in Chch in its current state by a new entrant is pretty mind-boggling. If they can do it then they should but I seriously fail to see how on many various fronts confronting such an effort.

        • Colonial Viper 4.2.1.1

          It will require a big ramp up, and also IMO, the re-establishment of the Department of Public Works.

          • vto 4.2.1.1.1

            Sure, but the ramp up is not possible imo. That is 10 houses each and every working day. If you start putting some actual numbers and people and materials against it and compare it to current levels of activity and shortages the problem becomes very clear. Not possible.

            But as Donald Trump says in the first line of his first book – if you are going to bother thinking at all then you may as well think big…

            • Lanthanide 4.2.1.1.1.1

              These are the sorts of numbers of houses we’re going to be needing to get the city back up on it’s feet anyway.

              I do wonder where they’re all going to go, though. Wigram Skies development is 1,600 houses and around 1,000 at Aidanfield.

              Aidanfield started in 2002 and section sales are just winding up now (with an obvious boost post-earthquake), Wigram Skies will be going for another 5-6 years before it’s all built.

              • Draco T Bastard

                I do wonder where they’re all going to go, though.

                Well, my hope would be for medium and high density houses in the city centre(s).

            • bad12 4.2.1.1.1.2

              Labour during the Kirk years were building 4000 State Houses a year, admittedly not in the one city…

            • Tat Loo (CV) 4.2.1.1.1.3

              We have to decide as a society how important this is for the nation and for the people of Christchurch.

              God forbid we consider what we did in the old days of the war – materials and fuel were strictly rationed so that everything possible was directed into the nation’s efforts. Factories and workshops were re-tasked on manufacturing and processing key products seen as critical.

              Sure, but the ramp up is not possible imo. That is 10 houses each and every working day.

              Realistically, it would start off being 2-3 houses/day, then by the last year be at a rate of 20 houses completed per day.

              (Bearing in mind that each house will still take several weeks to build, but once in the production pipeline…)

              • Ad

                Exactly Tat. Run it like there’s a crisis of that scale …. hmmm call it a city-destroying earthquake type crisis … use the powers the state already has to accelerate things.

            • greywarbler 4.2.1.1.1.4

              vto
              Don’t talk the housing plan down before its even started. It will be big and worthwhile even if the target isn’t met. And you in your spare time can keep an eye on it.

              You are in Christchurch aren’t you? Keep up the pressure on the Dept send reports to The Standard, and keep them reds up to the mark. First catch your election, then simmer for a year, then bring to the boil. Voila – c’est si bon (that could be for some in Akaroa), kapai!

              • vto

                yes greywarbler we are in Chch most of the time and right in the heart of quake zone, rebuild, insurance, red zone, green zone, everything everything…. that is why I doubt the ability to implement the policy. I see and work in that sector right now and see the constraints referred to.

                But give it a crack by all means. Go hard and think big. Lordy knows NZ is overdue for some change in the way things are attended to…

                The policy will be one enormous herculean effort that is for sure. If it gets pulled off then I will be the first to applaud.

                A better way to get into it though may be to prepare the first, say 200, homes so they can start within weeks of election, with a plan of action to bring the balance up to speed with urgency. That would require a small team of people to be working on this from right now. Is there such a team working on it? Working on anything to do with implementing the policy? Right now? curious …..

                • greywarbler

                  vto
                  Like your thinking. There’s life with you around, and others like you, so there’s hope too.
                  Gerry is the Big Man down there? What’s he doing for the little people outside
                  the CBD? So far outside they have seemed invisible. Caravans as temporary accommodation? I understand that one park has been taken over for quarters for all these builders that are going to be doing good stuff. Riccarton I think it was.
                  But that means that there are less places for the displaced Easties.

                  • Naturesong

                    With all the building happening in Christchurch, it’s a opportunity for a lot of apprentices; builders, plumbers, electricians etc.

                    Is that happening, or are they just importing tradesmen and scrounging labourers where they can?

            • Pete 4.2.1.1.1.5

              There’s some very good prefabricated homes out there.

          • bad12 4.2.1.1.2

            i think you will find that the next Labour/Green/NZFirst Government will ‘explain’ the 2500 houses built in the Christchurch area as the ‘sum total’ of all houses built including by private owners,

            i wonder just how many homes are involved in the other ‘leg’ of Labour’s plans for Christchurch housing, 100’s???, 1000’s, there’s probably as David Cunliffe said on National Radio this morning one hell of a lot of quite decent housing in ‘the red zone’ that with minimal repair will make a great addition to the States housing stocks,

            As cheap as cheese as well, some of these houses are apparently fit to live in now, their only problem being that they are in the red zone and i would assume Government would have to provide some monies to the Christchurch Council so as to restore sewerage and water facilities,

            i can tho hear Brownlee right now thinking ”oh no you don’t” and getting ready to send in the demolition crews…

            • Lanthanide 4.2.1.1.2.1

              “i think you will find that the next Labour/Green/NZFirst Government will ‘explain’ the 2500 houses built in the Christchurch area as the ‘sum total’ of all houses built including by private owners,”

              They are promising 2,500 “affordable” houses per year, so they can’t simply count all existing private construction because a lot of this won’t be affordable. The media are also reporting that the plan is apparently to sell the houses to first-home buyers only, which again means they can’t simply count all private construction as being part of the plan.

    • Ad 4.3

      Talked to Carter Holt or Fletchers recently about modular homes?
      In fact checked the number of multi-unit consents either confirmed or underway in Auckland right now?
      TransportBlog has been making a feature of just the approved ones ready for construction over the last month.
      Check it out.

      • bad12 4.3.1

        Aha, and that is what Phil Twyford has made reference to, if you have a factory,or any number of them, you can churn out ‘flat pack’ or totally constructed housing like they turn out cars from an assembly line,

        There is not the need for 2 or 3 builders per house construction, labourers can assemble all the various components in the factory overseen by a qualified builder, factories need not run one shift per day, 3 shifts 24 hours a day will churn out 3 times the housing,

        Some of the totally factory assembled housing which is then trucked to it’s site i have seen online is quite modern ‘flash’ housing…

        • Ad 4.3.1.1

          It’s quite odd to see a fully fitted bathroom complete with sockets craned into the side of a house. Think Ikea on steroids.

          German firms have been doing the high-end versions for many years. In fact I was contemplating engaging them for the Wanaka house.

          • bad12 4.3.1.1.1

            And if they are clever, while the components of the actual houses are constructed in the factories any number of labouring crews can be putting in the foundations, footpaths and gardens…

            • Tat Loo 4.3.1.1.1.1

              There are a few youtubes up with the Chinese building 15 story hotels in under a week. Concepts such as modular design and prefab components have been in use for a very long time. The Koreans helped take over the tanker building industry using those ideas.

    • joe90 4.4

      It is not possible.

      Of course it is, the late Barry Beazly saw the possibilities when he and his father modelled their franchise on the tract housing they’d seen in the US where, between 1947 and 1951, in just one municipality 17,447 homes were built by Levitt and Sons.

    • Draco T Bastard 4.5

      Of course it’s possible. It really just comes down to ensuring that a couple of thousand builders from outside Canterbury live there for a couple of years and then go back to their home.

      • weka 4.5.1

        Yeah, because the only thing you need to build thousands of houses is builders /sarc.

        Sorry DtB, but it’s just not as simple as that. There are also issues of where the builders come from and the effect that that has on their home communities.

        • Draco T Bastard 4.5.1.1

          Organising the builders is the hard part as it’s actual people and their lives you’re dealing with. The materials are easy.

        • Tat Loo 4.5.1.2

          NZ used to do this kind of thing all the time, with hydro towns, etc. People only think its hard because for 30 years we’ve been conditioned to believe that NZ could no longer perform major nation building.

          • Draco T Bastard 4.5.1.2.1

            Yep. We have the capabilities but we’ve been conditioned to believe that we don’t.

            • weka 4.5.1.2.1.1

              Or more correctly we have to recreate the situation where this would be possible. In this sense I think vto is right. It’s not just a matter of building x houses in x years. It’s about all the things that are needed to make that happen beyond the hammers and timber.

              My non-builder dad and his builder mate built the first house my parents lived in. It’s a different story today because of the changes to the building act post-leaking buildings, and because consent processes are extremely time and money consuming now. It really is a different world. Plus what’s been mentioned about the change in culture.

              • Draco T Bastard

                Two things:
                1.) A council can, and does, do more than one consent at a time
                2.) A while back there was talk about consenting designs. In other words, a house built to that design could be built anywhere in the country without the design needing to be re-consented. All that would need to be done would be the foundations for the specific section thus speeding up the process. Don’t know if this actually went through but it seems reasonable.

                It’s not just a matter of building x houses in x years.

                That’s exactly what it’s all about. Yes, it’s going to take some organisation and planning but it can be done and it can be done by government faster and better than it can be done by “the market”.

        • TheContrarian 4.5.1.3

          I do enjoy Draco’s “Just so…” stories.

      • joe90 4.5.2

        Transportables DtB, during it’s heyday the Mount Maunganui yard building homes for the Tokaanu and later the Huntly scheme was shipping five to seven completed homes a week.

    • amirite 4.6

      Why, John Key stated this morning that National are building over 20,000 houses already , so where are they? On Planet Key?

      Audio of Key saying that here at 6:10:
      http://www.radiolive.co.nz/AUDIO-PM-John-Key-slams-Labours-insurance-plans/tabid/506/articleID/38752/Default.aspx

  5. greywarbler 5

    Did you hear about the film Son of an Art Dealer. It’s about an isolated guy who has priceless paintings by old masters shut away in dark rooms to preserve them. He received them from his father who was an art dealer in Germany who authorities think, received them from Nazis who stole them from Jewish estates. He is a bit of a recluse, selling off an occasional one when he needs cash. But it isn’t a film, it’s true.

    What a moral hazard. He thinks what is the sense of returning them as the Nazis probably killed their owners. If no-one knows then I can keep ‘my precious’ close and never be found out. If I reveal I have them then I am a marked man for notoriety and punishment. If I leave them somewhere anonymously people will be hunting for the source. Tainted objects of beauty, in a film he would die with the paintings around him, fine funerary pieces beside him, like an Egyptian dignitary. Apparently he has been found out in real life. The aftermath of war rolls on.

    But now we have another event to worry about. Bill talked about Fukushima and the delicate task of moving the fuel rods. They had another 5 earthquake near there the other day. And there is always someone who talks down the dangers that need to be faced. Someone with a Three Mile Island connection. Bill’s Sunday notes about it sounded more reliable. Look up Bill in the search line up top if you want a catch up.

  6. reasons to be nervous about fukushima..

    http://www.alternet.org/environment/fukushimas-radiation-gusher-could-entire-pacific-fishery-be-tainted

    “..80,000 gallons per day of radioactive water – for 942 straight days –

    – dumped into the Pacific –

    – and counting..”

    phillip ure..

  7. greywarbler 7

    What’s this business of volunteer firefighters taking on the regular work that paid firefighting teams should do at Blenheim airport. I can’t believe at the callous way that the good nature of the volunteers is being abused. They sacrifice their personal and family time to carry out what are irregular, hopefully, safety interventions on behalf of their local area communities. But that good nature is being taken advantage of by people with the budgets to pay for the services they want.

    The government, through the Defence Force personnel and equipment, used to provide a seven day service to Blenheim airport. Now, ‘because of budget constraints’ its weekdays only and I think only 8 to 5p.m So what is done – call in the volunteer fire brigade, bleed them till they’re dry.

    The volunteers offer their services and join a responsible, trained, and supportive team ready to drop their own concerns to attend to the community’s serious events of destruction, injury or death. They should not have extra work dumped on them. Their management does not seem as supportive of them as I would expect. In fact there were ructions some years ago, where they were being taken advantage of.

    And besides the Blenheim situation, firefighters are being loaded with the task of calls to cardiac arrests at present done by St Johns Ambulance. The reason being given is ‘if they are in the area, and able to provide more timely assistance’. I suppose this relates to ‘the golden hour’, time that can be crucial for the recovery of seriously ill patients. But I view this as a serious interference in the lives of these people, adding to the time spent on their volunteer work and away from their own responsibilities. They will have jobs, paid work, so their employers are involved also, they sacrifice time too, having to find a way to fill the gap caused by an employee firefighter’s call-out.

    In the USA they have firefighters who are also ambulance workers.. I think they are two different jobs, each with its own specialised knowledge required. The firefighters, because they are given training in the care of injured persons, are now having these efficiency and cost-saving vultures load them with extra work in this field. The thin edge of the wedge? These managers co-operating with worker hours are stealing time from their lives, their work, their family, their personal time. Because they are responsible and good-natured people, it is not easy for them to refuse or even protest. But this abuse of altruism must not be allowed to continue.

  8. tricledrown 9

    Vto we were building 10,000 more homes a year up till 2008
    Technology has moved on in the building industry simple affordable homes can be built quickly.
    Cooky cutter + factory built homes like in Australia where whole suburbs are built with different facades claddings colours excetera.
    The capacity is available I am in the building industry .
    The workforce is available theirs an oversupply of building materials in the world as well as an oversupply of trades.Just about every developed country has an oversupply of builders so no problem their like wise materials if NZ can’t make Asia can.

    • vto 9.1

      Well I hope you’re right and I’m wrong tricledown. Maybe we in Christchurch can’t see the wood for the trees, so to speak….

  9. aerobubble 10

    Labour loses ChCh seat, giving Key an increased majority. Voters are outraged that Key is profiteering off the ChCh earthquake and is forced into an early election.

    • aerobubble..

      ..apologies for being so slow on the uptake..

      ..but could you explain/fill-in the bits/events/causes inbetween those three events..?

      ..’loss’..’outrage’..and ‘early election’..?

      ..i’m not quite keeping up here..

      ..i’m just not ‘getting it’/how you are getting from one to the next….

      ..phillip ure..

      • aerobubble 10.1.1

        I could be very wrong, parliament may have some measure that balances the vote when a bi-election takes one MP out of parliament. Since Key needs ACT and Dunne, having that extra vote (lose of ChCh MP as she went on to become Mayor).

  10. tricledrown 11

    BM Boorish Mysogynist.
    National are in trouble according to Matthew Hooten they expect to loose the next election they can I’ll afford to offend half the population.

  11. greywarbler 12

    Young girls, police think one could be 13, being sexually compromised or actually raped and put on Facebook.

    How come there isn’t a case to be brought against those involved under the Human Rights Act. Where is the respect for privacy and for the personal rights of the girls?

    And the police have been monitoring the Facebook pages, have apparently identified some of the young men and women, and have allowed it to continue saying that they were waiting for some evidence to show up, or one of the girls to make a complaint.

    It seems like collaboration almost. Not sharp action. Not getting onto Facebook to get it taken down. Apparently commercial TV3 did that, not our public protectors.

    And one remembers Louise Nicholls and the macho and morals raincheck that the force has had revealed in the past and the thought, is it the same now can easily arise again. Don’t the police care about their reputation? I would expect them to be very sensitive and anxious to clean up their act It really seems that sporting codes are tougher on their people and bad publicity than our Police.

    • Rogue Trooper 12.1

      been waiting for QoT to revisit the topic of R.C. after seeing articles and police positions on this charming offensive . Good old social media aye!

    • aerobubble 12.2

      Yeah, its okay it seems for parents to not protect their kids from slander, and Police can sit on the case until ‘a real crime’ turns up. Sorry, but police heads should roll. Police must protect minors when parents fail to. Its clear that parents have a clear civil case of slander, that these young men cannot prove they raped or gotten drunk minors.

      • idlegus 12.2.1

        the cop on the telly kept saying they were waiting for one of the girls to be “brave” enough to come forward, he kept repeating that word “brave’. the fb site was brought down after the journalist got involved. the police say some of the girls were underage, then the boys got them drunk, had sex with them, then bragged about it on facebook. i cant see how this is not a crime.

      • greywarbler 12.2.2

        aerobubble
        Don’t be too hard on parents. Social science study shows that parents have less authority now against the countering messages from the various media, sexualisation of young girls etc.

        The girls use their good looks etc to try and be popular with the boys. It’s very strong pressure they put on parents to let them be free, go out, stay up late, fib about where they will be.

        Learning to respect and value themselves is something that is hard to teach them. They like staying out late, being ‘adult’ in their minds, never thinking that bad things will happen to them. And leave possibly indelible memories.

  12. aerobubble 13

    A child is beaten, harmed, Police can act. But what
    if abuse is alledged? Police cannot act? Surely not.
    Well children pictures are being posted online, with
    comments that they were gotten drunk and raped.
    Police cannot investigate the parents? Since the
    parents have a duty of care to protect their children.
    Parents have an obligation to their kids to protect
    them, even against allegations of being ‘loose’,
    drunk, where this is not the case. Who has the
    responsibility to protect children standing in the
    community if not their parents, and parents who
    do not, and leave their children with potential self-harming
    pressures. Pretty sure children don’t want to be
    called drunken sluts. The fact that some young men
    may have alledgely raped, given drink to minors and
    publically humilated minors, should not stop Police
    removing these children from parents for their own safety
    since even the allegation is harmful to a child.
    And parents have a responsibility to act to protect their
    children. If young men assert online of activities that
    are illegal and involve minors, and parents do not
    make complaints, against slander of their children.

    The civil case is a slam dunk, since these young men’s
    assets can be seized and sold off to provide reparations,
    as they are hardly going to prove they raped minors, gave
    minors alcohol. Why should lousy lazy parents who do not
    protect their children, children who will be left exposed to
    potential continued harm, psychological and even repeat…

    Why have Police sat on their hands for so long! Police can’t
    cherry pick which offense, or which offender, especially when
    a minor is incapable of laying the complaint themselves.

    Its has nothing to do with it being the internet that was the
    publishing forum.

    • Rogue Trooper 13.1

      minor minions 😉

    • weka 13.2

      “The fact that some young men may have alledgely raped,”

      Aero, not quite sure what you are on about but:

      1. if you say that the rapes are ‘alleged’, then why are you not insisting that the other behaviours are alleged too? eg the children needing protection.

      2. why are you focussed on the parents of the victims instead of the parents of the violent offenders? Why not advocate removing the rapists from their parents as a way of solving the problem?

      Sorry, but your whole comment smacks of making the victims the problem instead of the men doing the raping. And that just contributes to rape culture.

      • aerobubble 13.2.1

        Okay, its alleged that Police have discovered a website where young men alleged they’ve given drink and had sex with minors.

        As minors parents have a duty of care, I don’t see a difference between smacking a child and calling them a drunken slut, so I don’t see a difference between someone else calling them a drunken slut.

        As fr the focusing but, obviously Capone was not taken to court for being a mobster but for tax fraud. Authorities cannot ignore one crime because they don’t have enough evidence for another.

        And its has to be noted, you seem to not realize that a victim of crime can become the victim of that crime again, and the parents have a duty to protect. Parents can immediately bring civil proceedings against these young men, and will win since what is the defense, evidence they got minors drunk and had non-consensual sex with them?

        Its going to be pretty hard for these young men to continue if they are paying civil damages and their car has been sold.

        • weka 13.2.1.1

          Dude, they didn’t have “non-consenual sex”, they raped them.

          Parents can’t stop children from being raped. Lock children up and they just get raped at home. And the rapists outside the home just find someone else to rape. The problem here is the RAPISTS not the teenagers, or the teenagers’ parents.

          “Authorities cannot ignore one crime because they don’t have enough evidence for another.”

          The issue here isn’t lack of evidence. It’s the police not doing their job properly and instead buying into rape culture. RNZ has had a good overview of this at the top of their news in the last vew hours, go listen to it properly.

          Suggesting that the parents prosecute civilly instead of the police prosecuting criminally just supports rape culture too. I also doubt that the women that have been raped want to be paid by their rapists. Or were you suggesting that the money go to the parents?

          • Colonial Viper 13.2.1.1.1

            Seems like a civil prosecution should be brought immediately as nothing else is being done, and it does not preclude a criminal prosecution down the track.

            • weka 13.2.1.1.1.1

              What McFlock said below. Plus you need to realise the social context this is happening within. Many of the people around those girls, and some of the girls themselves, won’t be calling this rape yet. Aero can go on about parental responsibilities for protection, but there is a societal protection issue here too. Those young women have been left in a situation where they are being damaged. Society needs to stand up and take responsibility for this, so that as well as caretaking those teens the culture also changes.. Otherwise, even if some boys get sued, not alot will change.

              A strong message needs to be sent that both protects the young women right now, but also changes how the men involved are thinking and acting.

              Even if it turns out that the police can’t lay charges (which I don’t believe on the basis of what I have read so far), they could still be going into those communities and dealing with this at that level. Rape Crisis and the NZ Police could collaborate on naming rape culture and then re-educating that generation coming through. The reason the Police don’t do that is rape culture.

              • Ennui

                What I find most disturbing about this whole episode is that there is a moral malaise, a disconnection. I watched the young men on TV, it left me feeling sickened and empty. Where was the “empathy” that made your fellow person a person, and not just a material object to be used, abused and thrown aside like a cigarette butt? How can those young men grow up so lacking emotionally? What does that say about their self awareness and their visions of their own futures?

                I wont comment on the Police and “rape culture”. What I will say is that the Police did not appear to have fully explored the legal avenues open to them, the line was their hands were tied without witnesses coming forward. Somebody with more legal knowledge might wish to comment on this: it appeared to me that there was a conspiracy to commit an illegal act at minimum.

                • Tat Loo (CV)

                  People are largely a product of the family, social and urban environments that they are exposed to.

                  The more sociopathic we make society at large, the more sociopathic individuals are going to be.

              • Tat Loo

                Those young women have been left in a situation where they are being damaged. Society needs to stand up and take responsibility for this, so that as well as caretaking those teens the culture also changes..

                I can’t see the politics of the situation allowing any real societal changes to be made: damage to our young people and throwing them on to the scrap heap is something which has been quite acceptable in NZ for a long period of time.

                Everywhere you look in this case there are victims. Those young guys, the perps, say they were done for multiple counts of rape and put away for 10-15 years each, well they will come out after that with next to zero educational and job prospects, just lots of criminal connections from the prison. More young NZers wasted.

                It’s also quite easy to say “society needs to stand up and take responsbility” but that’s very vague and anyhows it falls on to the relevant local communities and the immediate families involved more than anyone else.

                Rape Crisis and the NZ Police could collaborate on naming rape culture and then re-educating that generation coming through. The reason the Police don’t do that is rape culture.

                Get the politicians to order the police to do it then, and provide the budget. If you think it will make any difference.

        • McFlock 13.2.1.2

          So the parents need to hire a lawyer to do the job that the police won’t, otherwise it’s the parents who are being negligent?

          And, of course, hope that little jimmy mcphoto’s daddy isn’t rich enouch to hire a slew of lawyers and bankrupt them with counter-suits.

          It would be pretty hard for these young men to continue to offend if the police were pressing charged, or at least saying something other than claiming not to be able to do anything without a complaint. Fucksake, they can get murder convictions without having a body, but they can’t do anything when a crime is posted on FB?

          • aerobubble 13.2.1.2.1

            There’s a room, there’s alcohol, they have to been supplied, parents have to know where their kids are, and Police can act in case of endangerment of minors.

    • Tat Loo 13.3

      I would have thought that some kind of privacy charge would be an easy one to go for – not unlike some recent cases of guys getting done for filming up skirts or hiding cameras in bathrooms etc.

      But someone has to lay a complaint I suppose…

    • Draco T Bastard 13.4

      If young men assert online of activities that are illegal and involve minors…

      If they’re doing that then it amounts to a confession of crime with intent and they should be going to jail.

    • greywarbler 13.5

      The parents protecting their girls, if they are at work all day and looking after children and family all night, their girls might slip out and get into trouble. Parents aren’t able to be in three places at once.

      The parents aiming to have responsible boys with standards of behaviour. What do they teach their boys about decent treatment of girls and other people. Do they see their job as just to feed them lots of meat and take them to sports games, and make sure they pass their exams. Is there any talk about personal standards, about respect for others, about not just yielding to whatever animal impulse passes through their minds?

      If those parents knew their son was involved in this facebook stuff what are they doing and saying to him with anger and sorrow as to his behaviour? It’s not all about girls being foolish and losing their heads. Most girls wouldn’t think of ganging up to enjoy a boy who they are controlling. Perhaps they should, instead of being victimised and used as playthings by males abusing the girl’s very essence, her femaleness and intrinsic desire to relate to a male which drives the world and always has.

      • greywarbler 13.5.1

        Can my comment come off moderation. Down from No.13 from 17..45 Thanks

        • lprent 13.5.1.1

          It has been a long day. Get up at 0430 (after barely sleeping) to catch a 6am flight back to Auckland. Then off to work after a shower at home on the way through. A bit too vague to capture a transient bug with Aids to Navigation (AtoNs) that showed up on friday after I’d left for conference. Finally left a couple of devices running with logging on overnight. Headed home for some kip at 4pm….

          Done.

          Now the creation of dinner….

  13. How in the hell arent these ” Roast Busters” rapists arrested for rape??? This is beyond repugnant.

    • Pascal's bookie 14.1

      It’s called ‘rape culture’ Brett.

      Listen to the policeman talk about how they can’t arrest anyone because no victim has been ‘brave enough’ to make a fomal statement. That there is rape culture. that’s what them there feminists are talking about.

      Then go read the discussion at Public address, particularly this comment from Emma Hart, though there are many more:

      http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-narcissists-and-bullies/?p=299955#post299955

      • idlegus 14.1.1

        yeah that cop was disgusting. they said they had a word with the ‘boys’, ‘dont brag about it fellas, otherwise you gonna get busted…’ or somethign along those lines?. those boys families must be utterly embarrassed, well i hope so!

      • Brett Dale 14.1.2

        Pascal:

        I understand that, but surly there is enough evidence, why not seize these rapists cell phones/computers, I think its a safe bet that they took pictures of their victims in a state
        of undress, that would be child pornography, then you can arrest them.

        Ps: thanks for the link.

        • Pascal's bookie 14.1.2.1

          Well there’s all sorts of things we might think the police could have been doing. We know, for instance, that they don’t hesitate to use the GCSB to track cellphones and metadata. We don’t know what sort of things for exactly, but we’ve been told it’s drugs and money laundering.

          Tracking a gang of rapists who gloat about their activities however, seems to be not a priority.

          • Brett Dale 14.1.2.1.1

            Pascal:

            you know, I have to say this, its disappointing, that the left are saying stuff about the police, the right are saying stuff about the girls drinking..

            IMHO what needs to be said, is that these rapists are the ones to blame 100%, its rape and they belong in jail.

            • McFlock 14.1.2.1.1.1

              Who is tasked with investigating crimes and then prosecuting alleged offenders in court, thus enabling them, if guilty beyond reasonable doubt, to be put in gaol?

            • Pascal's bookie 14.1.2.1.1.2

              Well to go to jail, generally requires being arrested.

            • Pascal's bookie 14.1.2.1.1.3

              Also kind of weird, that you criticise me, when you said pretty much the same thing:

              but surly there is enough evidence, why not seize these rapists cell phones/computers, I think its a safe bet that they took pictures of their victims in a state
              of undress, that would be child pornography, then you can arrest them.

              But you know, the left and the right are just the same. Coz questioning the police and blaming the victims is the same.

              • Rogue Trooper

                sigh, maybe these days have been coming ever since gamers began having vicarious sex in Grand Theft Auto. Certainly evidence of more dehumanization of victims by offenders in these social trends. Been similar rings of men found offending on a huge scale in the UK. Generally facilitated by the admission of drug and / or alcohol. Yet we hear that the Taliban are misogynist…

                • greywarbler

                  RT
                  What I read about the UK seemed to be Indian/Pakistani men with white girls. I think that the high barriers against some cultures having sex outside marriage, mean that they look at western women who don’t keep to that rule, thinking that they are ‘easy’ and don’t deserve any respect as people. The dark side of the purity culture. The division of women into saint or whore, respect or availability.

                • weka

                  “sigh, maybe these days have been coming ever since gamers began having vicarious sex in Grand Theft Auto. Certainly evidence of more dehumanization of victims by offenders in these social trends.”

                  I do think that things we do for ‘recreation’ affect our thinking and behaviour. But pack rape of drunk girls in social settings is not new and predates computer games by a long way. This is about rape culture RT. Modern violent culture overlays that for sure, but it’s not the core of it.

            • Morrissey 14.1.2.1.1.4

              you know, I have to say this, its disappointing, that the left are saying stuff about the police, the right are saying stuff about the girls drinking..

              IMHO what needs to be said, is that these rapists are the ones to blame 100%, its rape and they belong in jail.

              You really are a fool. Everyone else here is making a serious attempt to talk about (yet another) police failure, and you’ve once again tried to sidetrack discussion by launching into one of your wandery and confused speculations about left and right.

              Please stay on your own blog, where you can continue to write all sorts of silly things, and bother nobody.

              • Anne

                Morrissey, I don’t think Brett is deliberately trying to sidetrack. He’s as angry about it as the rest of us – just looking at it from a different perspective.

                • Anne:

                  Thanks, like everybody else in newzealand, I feel disgusted at this.

                • Morrissey

                  I disagree, Anne. Brett Dale has an established track record of attempting to derail serious discussions by making bizarre comments like he has done, yet again, here. You are being very charitable in your assessment of this pest.

        • Sosoo 14.1.2.2

          So you want to convict people who are 16 or 17 years old for child pornography because they took naked pictures of a 15 year old?

          FFS. They would all be minors in the US.

          • weka 14.1.2.2.1

            Are you saying that minors shouldn’t be charged with crimes?

            Or that publishing photos of naked teenage girls on the internet without their consent that isn’t a crime?

          • Brett Dale 14.1.2.2.2

            Sosoo

            I want to prosecute people who get underage girls drunk, rape them, film it,
            share it on the internet, and then show off about it, and then try to recruit other rapists if they pay them 20 dollars.

            You do understand what happen was rape?

    • Sosoo 14.2

      Because New Zealand has always been a hotbed of drunken teenage promiscuity, and the police have better things to do than listen to the tales of adolescent braggarts and fantasists.

      Here’s what the cop said:

      “We’ve told them their behaviour is verging on criminal if not criminal, and suggested it cease,” says Mr Scott. “Some of the boys and their families were compliant and we believe they have stopped associating with the group.”

      That’s the common sense response in my view. They’d never get a conviction, as half of NZ has engaged in drunk teenage sex.

      • weka 14.2.1

        Are you saying that if a 15 yr old girl is so drunk she can’t speak or move, and a number of teen boys put their penises inside her, that SHE is having ‘drunk teen sex’?

        • Morrissey 14.2.1.1

          Are you saying that if a 15 yr old girl is so drunk she can’t speak or move, and a number of teen boys put their penises inside her, that SHE is having ‘drunk teen sex’?

          Sounds familiar. Three years ago Murray Deaker and Andy Haden were pushing the same obscene argument….
          http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/deaker-says-haden-treated-unfairly-3638070

        • Pascal's bookie 14.2.1.2

          And what if one of the penises in question was attached to the son of a cop.

          • idlegus 14.2.1.2.1

            one of the boys is the son of an ‘international celebrity’, the other, the son of a cop, according to tv3…certainly beginning to stink. tho the cop on rnz did make a lot of sense, but now this comes out?

  14. Virginia Linton 15

    Good on Carol Beaumont for asking why the police have not done more about these jerks for two years. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11151264 How many victims could have been saved had they expressed public concern long before now?

    • weka 15.1

      The more that comes out the worse it gets 🙁

    • weka 15.2

      Reading the Public Address thread now. This –

      Kyle Matthews, About 4 hours ago

      To quote one of our criminal lawyers:

      “Leaving aside that what is being described here is very clearly rape, it seems pretty clear that it’s also making an intimate visual recording without consent in terms of s 216 of the Crimes Act.”

      Also, honestly, two years? At some stage the police wouldn’t want to get a little proactive and put some weekend surveillance in when young women are being raped? Even if it didn’t lead to convictions, it might have had a preventative measure – excuse me sir, just before you go any further, can we talk to the young woman and you? Oh she’s smashed, I think she can come with us and not with you. Thanks.

      That’s a pretty clear indictment of how the NZ Police view rape, still. And how much this society values young women (or young men for that matter). Consider how much time, effort, money the police put into other crimes where they know they are occuring over 2 years. Hell, consider how much effort went into the Tuhoe raids. The men in this situation are in fact domestic terrorists.

      • Brett Dale 15.2.1

        Not sure if this is there twitter account, but its called roast busters and seems to be supporting them

        @ki_suvaSPJ

      • greywarbler 15.2.2

        How society views young men and young women. How young men and young women view themselves. How they value themselves and have pride in themselves. Thoughtful questions?
        There will always be the need to protect oneself against addictive booze and other drugs. Also people who would like to get something valuable from you for free. Mugging or hugging can have similar outcomes! It is sad to see behaviour that was illustrated and written about in the 1700s occurring today. Can’t we learn?

        There is a famous Hogarth picture of a drunk mother slumped on the ground, her baby falling out of her arms. This was shown alongside a sign ‘Drunk for 1 penny, Dead drunk for tuppence, Straw for nothing’!!
        Hogarth was disturbed about the venality of the government encouraging distilling as it used grain which was suffering a slump in sales, and the gin sales caused consequent decay of society. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Street_and_Gin_Lane

        http://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/Mothers-Ruin/
        In the 1730’s notices could be seen all over London. The message was short and to the point
        ‘Drunk for 1 penny, Dead drunk for tuppence, Straw for nothing’!!
        In London alone, there were more than 7,000 ‘dram shops’, and 10 million gallons of gin were being distilled annually in the capital…

    • felix 15.3

      The NZ Police not investigating the pack-rape of drunk women?

      Quelle surprise.

    • Chooky 15.4

      Virginia Linton+100….there needs to be some sort of official inquiry into this

  15. Pascal's bookie 16

    Noted commie journo Chris Keall, of the NBR:

    https://twitter.com/ChrisKeall/status/397200560702513152/photo/1

    “Official NZ govt site should be used by the govt of the day for straight info, not school-boy shots at the opposition”

    • Murray Olsen 16.1

      That’s the sort of rubbish you’d see in a third world dictatorship, and shows why Tories should never be allowed near the levers of power.

  16. FYI

    PROTEST! Oppose the TICS and International Convention Centre Bills!

    WHEN: Tuesday 5 November 2013 (Guy Fawkes Day)
    TIME: 12 noon – 2pm
    WHERE: Outside TVNZ (Corner of Hobson and Victoria Streets Auckland City)

    (Both the TICS and International Convention Centre Bills listed on the provisional NZ Parliamentary ‘Order Paper’ for 5 November 2013 http://www.parliament.nz/resource/0001954127 )

    While this National/ACT Government continues to violate citizens lawful rights to privacy, freedom of expression and freedom of association under the TICS Bill, ( http://techliberty.org.nz/changes-to-the-tics-bill/ ) there has been no ‘due diligence’ on the increased risk of money-laundering at Sky City under the International Convention Centre Bill, which effectively allows anonymity to money-launderers and organised criminals?

    http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz/increased-risk-of-money-laundering-at-sky-city-no-due-diligence-by-auckland-council/

    Quite unbelievable, in my considered opinion, that OFCANZ (illegally) sought and obtained the assistance of the GCSB in the unlawful surveillance of Kim Dotcom, and charged him with money-laundering, yet have not lifted a finger to do ‘due diligence’ on the arguably FAR bigger money-laundering threat arising from the International Convention Centre (Sky City) Bill?

    http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/SKY-CITY-OFCANZ-OIA-REPLY-NO-DUE-DLIGENCE-RE-MONEY-LAUNDERING-bright-penny-06-c211711-2-sent-reply.pdf

    A GREAT look for New Zealand – ‘perceived’ to be ‘the ‘least corrupt country in the world’ (along with Denmark and Finland) , according to the Transparency International 2012 Corruption Perception Index?

    NOT!

    http://www.transparency.org/cpi2012/results

    Protest organised by Penny Bright and Jax Taylor.

    Those opposed to the TICS and International Convention Centre Bill are welcome!

    Cheers!

    ‘Her Warship’ 😉

  17. Pascal's bookie 18

    The PM thinks the young rapists are disgusting and that they should grow up.

    • felix 18.1

      Maybe they could grow up and join the police.

    • McFlock 18.2

      they should grow up and get past that rapey phase that many young torieboys go through, but they can keep their knighthoods because they got those awards for other reasons. /sarc

    • gobsmacked 18.3

      Key’s comments at presser:

      These young guys should just grow up,” Key said this afternoon.

      “I guess, as a parent, I find the issue very disturbing and abhorrent really.

      “I mean, you are talking about youngsters who are at a very delicate age.”

      Key defended the work of police, who have spent two years investigating the gang, without any charges brought.

      “It is very difficult to progress this issue, if someone isn’t prepared to make a formal complaint.

      “And it’s a very challenging situation for a young woman to put herself in that position.”

      It’s very revealing – the first instinct of the authoritarian-conservative … defend police.

      Victims come first, but authority comes firster.

      • weka 18.3.1

        “a formal complaint”

        Would like to see a legal opinion on this. I was of the understanding that for statuatory rape, a complaint by the underage girl wasn’t necessary for someone to be charged.

        • Murray Olsen 18.3.1.1

          In my last year at school, one of my friend’s sister was found to be having sex with her boyfriend two weeks before her 16th birthday. The police charged the guy even though she begged them not to. He was about 6 months older than her, and his father was a truck driver. That was a while ago, but they certainly didn’t need a complaint then. This case stinks in more ways than one.

      • Rogue Trooper 18.3.2

        Wow, just wow.no mention of the crimes being committed. gobsmacked indeed.

  18. What PM Key should’ve said. is…

    “These guys are rapists who belong in jail for rape, and if they have filmed their victims, they are also guilty of child pornography”

  19. This is not a FUCKIN case of teen boys behaving badly its a case of people gang raping under age girls.

  20. tc 21

    The Boiler Suit and other working class looks coming this way…

    “In the last Australian election Liberal strategist Mark Textor put then-opposition leader Tony Abbott in a bright velcro vest and hard hat right at the centre of campaign pictures. Now in Britain his partner Lynton Crosby has further developed the working look by putting his client, Prime Minister David Cameron, into a boiler suit.”

  21. chris73 22

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9358829/Cunliffe-backs-gender-quota

    In case you’re all wondering what readers of stuff think theres a poll

    • weka 22.1

      Surely even you can see the leading bias in the way the ‘poll’ question was asked.

      Do you agree with Labour’s MP gender quota?

      Yes it’s a good idea, we need more female MPs

      No, MPs should be selected on their merits, not their sex

      Dumb fucks.

    • McFlock 22.2

      🙄

    • gobsmacked 22.3

      In case you’re all wondering what readers of stuff think theres a poll

      wondering- No, we aren’t
      readers – No, they aren’t
      think – No, they don’t
      poll – No, it isn’t

    • Morrissey 22.4

      “Readers of stuff”? LOL. You mean: what highly organised National Party supporters have been told to vote.

      How many times did YOU vote, as a matter of interest?

      • chris73 22.4.1

        Once, only seems to allow one vote per PC or at least it doesn’t seem to change the total if you vote more then and of course left wingers would never organize to vote on an on-line poll (thats sarcasm by the way)

    • Tat Loo (CV) 22.5

      I don’t expect the gender quota policy to be particularly popular amongst voters as a whole. But that wasn’t the point of the remit. Hopefully some professional polling is done on the issue some time soon.

      • chris73 22.5.1

        Well I would have thought that if you encourage more women to run for office then you’ll get a greater pool of talent to select from

      • jaymam 22.5.2

        I can tell you right now that the genda quota policy is exceedingly stupid and could be enough to stop Labour winning the next election. Get rid of it, and quickly!

  22. Rosie 23

    Roastbusters. (as per conversation above) So on the news just now it’s been said that one of the boys’ is the son of an entertainer and another is the son of a cop, no mention of whose sons they are. Since this isn’t a case of name suppression because we’ve never got as far as the courts with this, what is it? Do the lawyers for the father prevent their clients names from being broadcast? Why are they protected when the girls aren’t?

    Why did the cop say last night they couldn’t do anything because none of the girls have been “brave” enough to come forward? The shame isn’t theirs to own, so did he really mean “they haven’t come forward because they don’t feel supported enough to do so”? Why did the reporter feel it necessary to say that one of the victims had already lost her “innocence”? How is that relevant to her being raped?

    Age old rhetorical questions. The problem is they are still being asked.

    • chris73 23.1

      One of those times when I just think WTF is going on with guys these days and yeah I think that maybe some laws could be looked at…I dunno maybe a lawyer could explain it better but maybe the burden of proof required to start an investigation could be lowered if the alleged crime involves under age kids, drugs or something

      • weka 23.1.1

        “I just think WTF is going on with guys these days”

        Chris73, this is not new behaviour. The difference now is that people are willing to talk about it, and talk about it as rape (thank-you feminism for all the hard work in the past few decades). Plus there is the internet which alters the discourse hugely. And of course the internet allows those young men to be complete arseholes in a much more public way. But make no mistake, this behaviour has been around for a very long time.

        • greywarbler 23.1.1.1

          It’s possible that chris73 has not met the type of bloke that’s an exhibitionist. That would take a photo of his penis and send that to someone he wants to interest or shock or both.

          There’s a lot going on that doesn’t enter many people’s understanding. From that behaviour going on to more advanced titillation is a few steps. I think the word that covers both the male, and female behaviour in being attracted to these sleazebags, would be hedonism – .
          the pursuit of pleasure; sensual self-indulgence.

    • Pascal's bookie 23.2

      God only knows why someone wouldn’t want to go the police to say they were raped by a cop’s son. Hardly worth mentioning really eh?

    • weka 23.3

      “Why did the reporter feel it necessary to say that one of the victims had already lost her “innocence”?”

      christ, did they really use the word ‘innocence’?

      • Rosie 23.3.1

        I’ve only got the website link with text, not the actual reporters words but they did relate to the young woman who was interviewed below:

        “One girl, who is choosing to remain anonymous, says the Roast Busters stole her soul.
        “They don’t understand how I feel inside; they don’t understand how this has hurt me,” she says.
        Police say the girl is one of a number of drunk, underage victims they’ve interviewed about being exploited by the Roast Busters”

        http://www.3news.co.nz/Roast-Busters-sons-of-high-profile-entertainer-cop/tabid/423/articleID/320034/Default.aspx#.UndLx3CBnrc

        It was one of those “if/but” unnecessary sentences that acts as a disclaimer to the information provided. I wonder if TV3 sought to minimise her reality and her pain by pointing out that the victim had lost her virginity as an underage person. By saying it, they were already discrediting the criminal act of the young men involved.

        PB: Yeah, I mean why would you need to feel “brave” when faced with the potential parent of your rapist. How many young women were threatened with the line: “don’t even bother with the cops, my dad is one, bitch” And still the same spokesperson for the cops said tonight, that had nothing to do with their lack of action…………

  23. greywarbler 24

    I hope that someone has warned the Afghani interpreters and their families about the Bangers being exploded on November 5th, and before and after. Four very loud bombs blasts have just gone off. They could sound like IEDs.

    As fireworks which were meant to be colourful things, these are a sham. I hate the things, and I think they should be limited to one public place, where people can buy one or two to let off in a field or something and there is a set piece to watch and it raises money for the local firefighters, appropriately. And too many fireworks especially bangers get held over and exploded at various times during the year long after November 5th.

    • Rosie 24.1

      Yes, on to a another topic, that of Guy Fawkes. We do have a number of refugee’s from war zones living in NZ and I’ve wondered before what they think of NZer’s sense of fun at blowing things up in the night suddenly without warning, at this time of the year.

      Today, yet again, I’ve signed what seems to be an annual petition to govt to ban the private sale of fireworks. As usual it was from animal welfare orientated group. As usual it will be ignored. Who wants to be the government that bans “fun” ? No one so far.

      I’m all for public displays in a controlled environment. Better that than leave explosives in the hands of folks that intentionally set out to harm domestic and farmed animals that the SPCA have to deal with every year. Let alone the stress caused by fireworks to animals kept indoors on Guy Fawkes night.Tomorrow, I’ll spend half the evening lying under the bed trying to calm our cat friend down.

      Our suburbia encroaches onto farmland where we have several bird species that are nesting with their chicks as well as sheep with their lambs and cows with their calves. As well as all the development these animals have to cope with (this is another story for another time)they have to cope with sounds that are frightening to them. Got to marvel at human sensitivity and intelligence.

      • aerobubble 24.1.1

        Its essential for democracy to have outlets for political expression. Celebrating the bomber of parliament by burning his image is for me the one finger to both the terrorists, and the authoritarians who would see any chatter about government to be unlawful. And then there is the very real gain that we manage fireworks and control gun powder.

  24. lolitasbrother 25

    you are a load of fun Rosie

    • greywarbler 25.1

      lolita or somebody’s brother
      You obviously can’t get to sleep because of the fireworks and the noise or the worry that you won’t have any fireworks and noise if intelligent people can stop this childish expensive destructive ritual.
      Adequate sleep is very necessary for clear thinking and the growth of brain function and general health. Before you get to be somebody’s partner, or somebody’s father it would be a good idea to get lots of sleep.

  25. Either way, you usually need to be by the computer and be ready to bid, for any
    chance at winning the item. They say any form of exercise can keep your body fit and active.
    Unfortunately, the developer also had to express its disappointment in a
    leak of game assets from PSN pre-orders in Europe that have
    led to the spread of spoilers.

    My homepage – TéLéCharger GTA 5 GRATUIT

Recent Comments

Recent Posts

  • Swiss tax agreement tightens net
    Opportunities to dodge tax are shrinking with the completion of a new tax agreement with Switzerland, Revenue Minister Stuart Nash announced today. Mr Nash and the Swiss Ambassador David Vogelsanger have today signed documents to update the double tax agreement (DTA). The previous DTA was signed in 1980. “Double tax ...
    2 weeks ago