Open mike 05/12/2019
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7:00 am, December 5th, 2019 - 63 comments
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- The emerging coronavirus outbreak in China
By now you’ve probably heard of the new virus causing an outbreak of severe pneumonia in China. The question on most people’s minds is, how worried should we be, especially as hundreds of millions of people will soon be travelling across China and beyond to visit family for the Lunar ...11 hours ago - How did climate change get so controversial?
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- Revolution in New Zealand? Not Even Close!
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Hope Paula Bennett holds up a lethal dose of "weed" in the house today. If she won't you do it Prime Minister.
That would be pretty funny – unfortunately it wouldn't fit through the doors. Suffice to say the only risk of death from a lethal dose would be through it falling on you and crushing or suffocating you.
Bennett's been a poster-child for dishonesty and lack of integrity for a decade now, so her oregano-waving is par for her unsavoury course. It's depressing that she so consistently gets away with it.
She’s tarnished the image of green growers by using a plastic bag. She could have used an edible cup, for example.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/117927572/air-new-zealand-trials-edible-vanillaflavoured-coffee-cups-to-reduce-waste
How about a re-useable glass jam jar?
The sealed top would keep the plant fresh?
What is the scene like in Wellington?
Could anyone score that much Oregano before question time?
I m an alcoholic I have struggled with it for decades I consume 90 – 200 grams of alcohol a day (yeah food is a much lower priority). When I have cannabis to smoke I lose interest in drinking – if it is legalised with the home growing allowed …I will smoke about 1 gram a day instead of ingesting 90 – 200 grams a day of alcohol. I see the merchants of hate doing their utmost to try to prevent this – images of Bridges and Bennett induce revulsion, depression and fear in me. /rant ends
With you there Barfly 100%
Best treatment is "preventive medicine"
" I see the merchants of hate doing their utmost to try to prevent this – images of Bridges and Bennett induce revulsion, depression and fear in me. "
They do such damage with their politicking and lies, and I hope in this case it is seen by all NZers as the hot air of rancid balloons that it is. I would prefer a government who looks at the harm done by current laws to change them without need for referendum. Let's hope that is the case within the next couple of years, it will benefit many – as well as yourself.
with any luck they're run a paper bag over the head style campaign like the rich people did with MMP and get a backlash over their stpuidity.
Does big alcohol donate to the nats?
Donate? not sure – but there are ties
"Katherine Rich served as a member of the New Zealand House of Representatives for the National Party from 1999 to 2008. She has been chief executive of the New Zealand Food & Grocery Council, an industry lobby group, since 2009. Wikipedia"
She was active on the debate on rtd's from memory.
Big alcohol used to be thought as big funder to Nats.
There was Sir Henry Kelliher. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Kelliher#Business
And Sir Ernest Davis. http://www.nzjh.auckland.ac.nz/docs/1987/NZJH_21_1_07.pdf
So when is Jones going to be sacked for corruption?.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/in-depth/404837/new-details-revealed-over-nz-first-linked-company-and-shane-jones-office
Probably about the same time Bill English is arrested for fraud…that is never
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10600100
The old double dipper bru haha
Buster 12 my question to you is if this is true here;
“The Latest on the US Democratic Party “Impeachment into Trump inquiry” results so far is – “Nothing to see here” according to the Democratic impeachment inquiry into President Donald Trump.”
Democratic Party you are a wasting lots of valuable of time here,
Question is ; US democratic Party- Why don’t you get on to fix our planet will you.!!!!!!!!!!!!
What is a fitting quote here is; “US Democratic Party is siting doing nothing while Rome burns”
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/house-gop-report-says-no-evidence-for-trump-impeachment-warns-of-dangerous-precedent
Quote;
“The fact that Republicans may be derelict in their duty does not relieve us of our obligation to uphold and defend the Constitution,” Schiff tweeted last week.
Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerry Nadler, D-N.Y., also ripped Trump for not fully cooperating with Congress.
“If the President thinks the call was ‘perfect’ and there is nothing to hide then he would turn over the thousands of pages of documents requested by Congress, allow witnesses to testify instead of blocking testimony with baseless privilege claims, and provide any exculpatory information that refutes the overwhelming evidence of his abuse of power,” he said in a statement.
Not sure what you're on about, that has nothing to do with what i asked.
Well you are here now calling for a 'sacking' of one of our MPs in NZ, we see as based on slim pickings, similar to the same thing happening in Washington now.
So its about your slim narrative you involve in as Democratic party are in Washington.
Are you a member of some 'anti-NZ First political hit'?
Now we all know what happened to Paula's "oregano" and the "baking powder" she'd bagged up for today…
"We need a President who isn’t a laughing stock to the entire World,” Donald Trump tweeted in 2014. “We need a truly great leader, a genius at strategy and winning. Respect!”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/12/04/world-is-laughing-donald-trump/
Trump's mental health questioned.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-mental-state-impeachment-psychiatrist-petition-congress-a9232386.html
The health of USA political system questioned too!
Interesting how the world 'unites' at the 'hilarity' of Trump..what we really need is a world where any and all leaders who don't advocate for a basic level of equality for all their citizens, and who don't bring around actual real change to prepare for the climate disaster currently brewing..that those leaders are treated as the odd one out..the 'joke' if you will..especially those in comparatively wealthy, educated and proggresive Nations.
Watching Princess Anne* being entertained by the likes of Macron, Trudeau, Boris Johnson and Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte with their hilarious observations of Trump I couldn't help but wonder who would be the first to crack a joke about that naughty pedo brother of hers and his sex trafficker friends..oh, yeah, and ol' Bill Clinton..
* at the Buckingham Palace drinks reception for NATO leaders last night
There is a large number of people who find Trump particularly amusing or entertaining. I suspect it is because they are not those who are impacted by his government and policies. Those who are – quite rightly – will be understandably terrified of this man and the harm he and his government have inflicted. And no-one really knows what his next transgression will be. It is almost like the hyper-vigilance children often have when a parent is both violent and unpredictable.
"..what we really need is a world where any and all leaders who don't advocate for a basic level of equality for all their citizens, and who don't bring around actual real change to prepare for the climate disaster currently brewing.. ..that those leaders are treated as the odd one out.. " I'll join you in hoping for the next iteration of leaders. They'll be needed.
Live animal exports – let's stop. They don't get a luxury cruise, they didn't want to go anywhere away from their home paddock, and they suffer discomfort all the way at least, which will increase as world weather patterns become more extreme, and many may die in distress. Stop this, can we hold onto values of care and not behave like boorish and brutal …. (think your own description).
https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2019/12/05/review-of-controversial-live-export-trade-open-for-public-submissions-safe/
When do submissions close? This on google:
Review of livestock exports from New Zealand | MPI | NZ …
https://www.mpi.govt.nz › news-and-resources › consultations › review-of-li…
Nov 22, 2019 – Review of livestock exports. Closing Date: 22 Jan 2020. Contact: Animal welfare policy. Email: livestock.consult@mpi.govt.nz …
Thanks for raising this Greywarshark and providing the link.
This is an interesting searching piece about Wellington planners other-planet plans. 2/12/2019
http://wellington.scoop.co.nz/?p=124202
Some interesting figures that savenz found on PPP in the UK – these apply to roading: https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2019/12/04/the-daily-blog-open-mic-wednesday-4th-december-2019/#comment-483347
roading This report: https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-files/Society/documents/2004/11/24/PFI.pdf
found that PPP “contracts are considerably more expensive than the cost of conventional procurement”, resulting in higher returns for the companies running the PPP’s compared to their industry peers.
While hard to compare because of the opaque nature of many contracts and large amounts of subcontracting out, it looked like the actual cost of capital of the PPP’s was 11% compared to Treasure borrowing of 4.5% i.e. 6.5% higher. This is supposed to represent the cost of risk transfer but in practice there was no risk transfer so it’s money for nothing.
The Greenpeace "OMV" protests have been very stylish events. The latest, where a "Museum to oil" was set up, shows how well presented these protests have become; no hand-scribbled placards here; everything that gets seen by the public is, well, classy, these days.
Thanks! I made a post about it
Seems to me that activists are more sophisticated; they use smart phones instead of megaphones. Some protests are gentrified events.
"Some protests are gentrified events"
'cept for that "locked-on" bit
Handcuffs are quite popular in gentrified suburbs, I’ve been told.
Fendalton anti-oil protesters, putting in the hard-yards…who knew???
Never judge a book by its cover. I find Prius drivers quite aggressive on the road. I haven’t seen too many Teslas so I’ll have to reserve judgment on those.
Prius drivers aggressive? Perhaps they haven't been able to find the key to the cuffs?
Bill
I am surprised Israel Folau didn’t get a mention. Christmas certainly came early for the $8 million dollar man. Free speech, not rugby, was the winner.
[TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
The ARU decision to issue Folau a new 4 year contract after the first social media contention would itself rank as one of the bigger blunders made by any sports body executives.
And that was before the sacking, the impasse since and the cost of the settlement – so it now ranks as one of the all-time great blunders. Her own contract is unlikely to be renewed. 
By the way the CEO says that the $8M is untrue and it is less (journalists will speculate to get clarification of the area of the amount).
If the cost to the ARU settlement is greater than
1.future legal costs BAD
2. the unpaid part of the 4 year contract (3 years – 3.6M) VERY BAD.
3. closer to 8 than 4, DISASTROUS.
Jamie Stern-Weiner argues that the (UK based) The Campaign Against Antisemitism (CAA) is shifting the goal posts to portray that antisemitism is higher on the left (polling done via You Gov), and not the right (based around questions about Israel).
https://jamiesternweiner.wordpress.com/2019/12/03/fake-campaign-against-antisemitism/
(based around questions about Israel)
Framing the questions to give you the answers that suit your agenda is a long-standing problem in the social sciences.
People are turning to the gypsy life, not choosing to form a settled community that they help build and support?
(https://play.stuff.co.nz/details/_6106975299001
That looks like some fun.and good on Joel for building up a career as an inspirational speaker…but they really should have a disclaimer...
"World Nomads, the global travel brand and insurance provider.".
Advertising has become very under the radar these days.
So the ODT has changed how it selects cartoons – now throws it to the news team rather than just leaving it to the editor.
I guess "we got it wrong" should read "I got it wrong".
I had the impression from Stewart that he didn't make the decision eg when asked directly he said something like it was his responsibility. The kind of answer you'd give as a boss for someone under you who had fucked up who you weren't going to throw under the bus. I could be wrong and he might have just been trying to soften the blows towards himself.
That's a good apology now. Respect.
It's a fine apology, I'll give it that.
It also includes the lines (my italics):
So the author of the apology was the only person at the ODT who selected what cartoon to publish.
That's the perils of contracting out, I guess. I watched a doco a few years ago on a veteran US newspaper cartoonist – apparently each day he'd scratch up a dozen and then show them around the newsroom to see which one people saluted the most. I guess if one guy is writing from a lifestyle block near Queenstown and it's only being reviewed by an editor of 'a similar demographic', outright crass disregard for the lives of people of colour might slip under the radar.
If the Editor was off sick or had a personal emergency, who was making decisions? I assume 'editor' there means a single position, not a single person.
It might have been Stewart, who possibly wasn't paying attention and later realised just how bad a mistake it was. That could be a similar demographic issue as well or someone overworked/stressed.
I'm thinking his willingness to front up suggests this wasn't a case of pushing the controversy envelope for the sake of it and now backtracking in the face of public criticism (i.e. he seems to genuinely agree it was a terrible decision).
I guess I'm just pleased to see someone who seems genuine and made an actual apology instead of a faux, get me out of hot water one.
of course, I have no idea, am just going off the bits I've read. I don't have a sense of him as a person.
True that.
But this isn't the first time Tremain has done some pretty shite cartoons. I don't get the impression he tries to be edgy for clicks, so much as that he's a privileged dick who doesn't bother to check if he's punching down.
Totally agree with that. Tremain is just an arsehole who doesn't give a shit (or worse, thinks he's not doing anything wrong). The impression I have is that it's the *papers that publish his cartoons because of the edge. In this case they seriously misjudged how bad the cartoon was and I guess that's in part because they're acclimatised to his routine racism, having published it for so long. I hope this is part of their review.
I get the impression that the ODT runs Garrick Tremain for the same reason the Fortune Theatre loved to run Roger Hall plays: it's what seemed to get the local audience amongst the provincial well-to-dos who still want to pay for subscriptions to the actual paper. And I think Tremain gets points for having been around for so long and being "local".
To be fair, Tremain has the cartoon art schtick down pat. Some of his political party stuff is good. It's just that his best caricature is of "cartoonist for the moneyed colonialist patriarchy". And the ODT has always been the voice of the establishment, as far back as I can recall. To the degree that an NLP comrade of mine reckoned he knew for sure that Lab4 had turned tory when the ODT editorial started singing its praises.
Lol that last bit.
Ok, so Tremain might be valued for his overall body of work rather than the pushing the edge ones?
I was wondering yesterday who still reads a physical paper. I only read one when I'm in a cafe. I see people on twitter saying they bought a copy of the Herald to read something that was paywalled, which is interesting.
Also interesting was Stuff republishing the measles cartoon in their coverage of the response from the public and the ODT despite also writing a clear description of the cartoon content.
Tremain has been going for thirty years. The ODT much longer.
I'm not sure either have really moved on in the last few decades.
I can't shake the feeling that neither of them were being edgy. It's possible that the editor didn't really review the cartoon itself, but it's equally possible neither the editor nor the cartoonist saw anything wrong with it. Because that's how NZ was as a matter of routine. We're still "racist as fuck", but at least sometimes the people who refuse to change get called out on it now.
The best I can think of is that the literal dozens of deaths were fighting for attention in their minds against the perception of measles as a fairly harmless disease… just "spots". If 50 kids had died in a bus accident in Samoa, I doubt there would have been a cartoon about someone failing their local car WoF inspection.
Yep, changed my mind, I think you are right and I was wrong giving Stewart the benefit of the doubt. Long standing pattern of behaviour,
suspect it wasnt reviewed by anyone….and was tone deaf…Tremain defended it even after pointed out.
he submitted it and it was published without any oversight?
If a cartoonist can't offend, then free speech is worthless. That's something we can take from the Israel Folau saga, which saw Rugby Australia capitulate. RA inexplicably thought rugby, and its sponsors, were more important than free speech. Numpties.
Besides, what the cartoonist did in this instance can be seen and heard on just about any episode of 7 Days.
normally would agree cartoonists are to challenge but some things really need self censorship/compassion
do you believe there should be no limits on free speech? eg a cartoon graphically depicting the rape of a child would be ok?
What about a cartoon inciting racial violence?
do you believe there should be no limits on free speech? eg a cartoon graphically depicting the rape of a child would be ok?
What about a cartoon inciting racial violence?
Tremain's cartoon does neither, so it might be useful to talk about reality rather than take a detour into fantasy. Certainly free speech has its limits. But some people take offence at the drop of a hat. You are free to take offence or not.Taking offence isn't compulsory. I'm not offended by Tremain's cartoon. I'm also not offended by 7 Days, whose attempt at humour can be more extreme than anything done by Tremain.
There was outrage among some people at the cartoon of Serena Williams following her meltdown at the US open in 2018. Actually, it was an accurate portrayal of Williams’ petulant behaviour.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/feb/25/serena-williams-cartoon-not-racist-australian-media-watchdog-rules
ok, so you're not arguing that cartoonists should be free to offend at will, you're saying there should be a limit but in this case the limit is wrong. What makes you think you should get to say where the limit is rather than others?
Limits are prescribed in law. You might recall MP Louisa Wall going to the High Court because she didn't like an Al Nisbet cartoon. She lost, of course, because the Nisbet cartoon wasn't inciting violence. In fact, it didn't come close to inciting violence. Again, if you choose to be offended, that's your choice. But you can just as easily choose not to be offended.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11992927
a cartoon depicting the rape of child wouldn't necessarily be illegal. So where is the limit? Saying you want to talk about reality doesn't help, I suspect that's you simply sidestepping the fact that you have a limit and aren't being honest about it. But maybe I'm wrong, maybe you are ok with such a cartoon. Either way, you're still saying that you should get to decide where the limit is, whereas at the moment society generally accepts the limit is reached before legality.
Freedom of speech is at core a principle that governments shouldn't prevent citizens from expressing opinions. There's no government involvement here. Tremain is still free to post his cartoon on his website. He hasn't been sacked, so there is no institutional suppression of his voice there either.
What we have is a large number of people saying that it's inflammatory to use political power to make jokes about a contagious disease that is killing children while children are still dying, in a country that is in a state of emergency and that has strong family and cultural ties to NZ. Of course people are going to take that personally, there will be NZ citizens who have people close to them who have died. Grief isn't something that one just chooses out of.
Had someone made that joke on TS, they'd have been moderated because otherwise a flame war would have started and that interferes with the purpose of the site. People aren't inherently protected from being offended, but likewise people in positions of power can't just do what they want without consequence. This is the continual adjustment that society makes all the time, in large part influenced by the collective will.
Protecting society from the equivalent of flame wars is important. Protecting freedom of speech is also important but I think there needs to be a better argument than 'I can say what I want and bugger anyone who is offended'.
Weka
Nowhere am I saying I get to decide. I said the law gets to decide, usually in exceptional cases or where someone has a bee in their bonnet. The Tremain cartoon isn’t exceptional.
As for your claim that there needs to be a better argument to justify free speech, actually there doesn’t. What there ought to be is a very good argument to restrict or deny free speech. You haven’t made out such an argument.
suspect so…hes been around for a long time, doubt editor looked at it
Interesting, hadn't thought of that. It would explain the Editor’s shock.