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Open mike 05/08/2015

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 5th, 2015 - 92 comments
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92 comments on “Open mike 05/08/2015 ”

  1. Tricledrown 1

    Edward Heath coverup should signal the need for an open enquiry here as the powerful wealthy elite here have covered up as well for political gain

  2. b waghorn 2

    The price keeps dropping is it possible rural nz is being set up for a corporate raid??

    • aidan 2.1

      kinda what i’ve been wondering.que mortgage sales and farms being offloaded by desperate farmers and “investors”, especially marginal farms. remember how china pushed up the price of coal, all the while stockpiling it and the subsequent crash in price when they stopped buying? now with dairy dejavu. the banks have not been particularly responsible with lending, pouring millions into dairy conversions (including in area totally unsuited like central otago) making hay while the sun shines. well the weather has turned and is about to shit all over those hapless farmers – and our economy. whose goin to buy all these farms? i wonder.

      • millsy 2.1.1

        The farmers screwing the environment (and their workers) are probably being screwed by the banks (and insurance companies) themselves.

        When it really comes down to it, it is the finance sector calls that calls the shots, we all just dance to their tune,

    • Draco T Bastard 2.2

      Wouldn’t surprise me to see such happen even if it hadn’t been purposeful. The rich will always find ways to take from everyone else during times of trouble.

      • Colonial Viper 2.2.1

        And the finance sector are their key facilitators

        • Kevin

          Just look at the those who are now part of the Chinese banking system: Don Brash, Jenny Shipley, Ruth Richardson, Chris Tremain (this one would be absurdly funny if it was’t true).

          I would not be surprised if Chinese financed corporate farming rises to prominence in the next couple of years.

          • Tracey

            its all just coincidence. nats just all happen to be more gifted than other nzers.

    • Saarbo 2.3

      Yes, the main problem with the world dairy market is nobody knows what is happening in China, zero visibility. Its utterly stupid to be relying on this country for our future, that is the mistake Fonterra has made.

      It makes you wonder what van der heyden knew when he made this comment.

    • John Shears 2.4

      BW It’s The market init?

      • b waghorn 2.4.1

        I don’t know but China filled its warehouses chooker full buy all accounts and are know in a position of being able to sit it out for a while while farms potentially go broke.
        I am aware there’s lots of other factors pushing dairy prices down as well but was just interested to see what other comenters here thought.

  3. AsleepWhileWalking 3

    The War On Cash Is Evil – Mike Maloney

    Banks stand to make a lot more money from a cashless society than they currently make.

    • b waghorn 3.1

      One flaw in his talk is the assertion that it will force every one onto a credit card when its easier now to be cashless and not have a credit card than it was 10 years ago.

      • weka 3.1.1

        How do you buy online without a credit card?

        • b waghorn

          Direct transaction from account to account and I believe my eftpos card can be set up as a debit card that works like a credit card but you use you’re own money.

          • Molly

            I understand there is some consumer protection if you use either the credit or debit card as well.

          • freedom

            It is a separate card but runs off the same account/s as your regular eftpos card

          • weka

            “Direct transaction from account to account”


            “and I believe my eftpos card can be set up as a debit card that works like a credit card but you use you’re own money.”

            But also has a credit card type limit on it whereby you can go into debt? (You can also run a credit card off your own money)

            • Draco T Bastard


              Log in to your bank
              set up payment to another persons account
              Click ‘pay’

              But also has a credit card type limit on it whereby you can go into debt?

              You only have the money in your account to pay with unless you have an overdraft available in which case there would also be credit available.

              • weka

                Ok, so overnight online banking. In my experience there are still enough places that won’t do that and require a credit card. I also use my credit card over the phone. Is there is a substitute for that (not sure if debit cards can be used like that)?

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Debit cards can be used exactly the same way as credit cards and in the same places. The only difference is that debit cards don’t usually have credit on them and so you can only use money that you have in the bank.

                • lprent

                  Debit cards used to have problems. These days if they have a visa or mastercard, they appear to be accepted everywhere on the net.

        • Tricledrown

          Weka their are several different versions of cash card now even one that you transfer only the amount of the purchase so you don’t get your bank account emptied by a scam.

        • Ovid

          Debit cards – they’re eftpos cards that are linked into the Visa or Mastercard network and can be used in the same fashion as a credit card except they draw directly from your account. So far as I can tell, they are offered by the major banks, Kiwibank, TSB, the Cooperative Bank and most credit unions.

          Go on to your bank website and search using the term “debit card” you should get the info if you’re interested. I’ve been far better at managing my money since I switched from using credit to debit.

          • weka

            Are you saying that a debit card by default can’t go into overdraft?

            How does the bank and/or credit card company make money from it then? Is the retailer picking that up?

            • Ovid

              Are you saying that a debit card by default can’t go into overdraft?

              That’s what I’m saying. Unless you have an overdraft facility on your account.

              How does the bank and/or credit card company make money from it then? Is the retailer picking that up?

              Mine is with ANZ – I don’t have an annual fee on it because it’s linked with my everyday account. If it was linked with another account – like my savings – it would be $10 p.a. There is a currency conversion fee of 2.5% when buying in foreign currency, but lots of overseas retailers – like Amazon – charge in $NZD, so that can be avoided.

              I would guess the retailer is picking up the charges for being on the network.

              • weka

                Thanks Ovid. I think when my bank originally offered me something like this it was tied into them offering me credit, so I said no. I generally don’t take my credit card to town, so having a credit facility on my eftpost card was always going to be a bad idea. That was some years ago though, I should check it out.

            • DoublePlusGood

              Basically from nebulous account charges and margins on overseas sales

              • Colonial Viper

                AFAIK store owners and businesses get killed with these debit cards because the credit card company takes their 2.5% financial industry tax on every transaction.

                Banks pushed customers to replace their eftpos cards with these credit card branded debit cards because they get a cut of this action.

                Awful financial industry ticket clipping.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  AFAIK store owners and businesses get killed with these debit cards because the credit card company takes their 2.5% financial industry tax on every transaction.

                  Which happens to be another reason why we have to shift from private bank financial system to a government bank owned financial system.

                  We should not have to pay private companies to use our money.

                • weka

                  thanks CV. Is that worse than what credit card companies/banks do with credit cards? I’ve noticed a few places that now add a charge if purchasing with a credit card.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    It’s exactly the same but the credit card also creates money when it’s used whereas the debit card usually doesn’t.

      • Sabine 3.1.2

        How much will the banks be allowed to charge you/ me/us for transactions on our ‘deposit’ ‘credit’ ‘eftpos’ card?

        When I pay cash, i pay cash, the bank gets nothing. So in fact, ‘the cashless’ society is going to increase the cost of living by way of ‘taxing’ transactions.

        its just that you don’t physically have to pull out a note of your wallet.

        this is an interesting read on the cashless society that are the US American Citizens that receive SNAP and or other benefits.


        the banks are making a killing.

        • Colonial Viper

          Exactly – but its small business owners who bare the brunt of this financial leachery, as they end up paying % merchant fees to the credit card companies. SMEs then feel pressure to take more from employees and customers.

          To feed the financial industry vampire.

          • Sabine

            I pay these fees every month, but i do count these fees as a ‘cost of doing business’ and i am able to write them off at the end of the year.

            Bank Cards cost money, account fees, transaction fees, replacement fees for a lost card etc etc etc. This can actually eat up quite a bit of cash at the end of the year, that only benefits the card issuing bank, but add to no service to the businesses and/or community.

            A cashless society run by the banks? No thank you, they are already milking us to no end, i also don’t like the idea that my every purchase is traceable via bank statements, nor do I like the idea that my data gets a. sold of to the highest bidder or to any business that the bank works with….shared data ….or that it might get stolen.

            I can see the attraction aka the Startrek button that is the intercom, the bank account and we are all paid in credits. Alas, as our current government here, and various other government overseas show daily, we first have to have the total war before the Vulcan come to Earth to give us Warp Drive and a better more enlightened future.

            So no, Cash is still King/Queen.

      • Colonial Viper 3.1.3

        one major goal of a cashless society is to be able to track your commercial activities in real time, wherever you are.

        This is an extension of the surveillance state.

        Also in a banking shutdown like Greece just had, it leaves people with no choice but to beg the controllers of the banking and transaction networks to throw the switch back on, at any cost.

        • left for deadshark

          CV, the previous finance minister Cullen,was very hot on a cashless society,just shows you where his community lies, (that’s for those out there pumping his credentials) .

          • Draco T Bastard

            I am as well but I hold that all the transactions need to be done on a government server/network and not on private bank servers so that the banks don’t get to prey on the people for using their money.

            • Sabine

              even if the government is as democratically elected as the one in Russia, China, Zimbabwe, or Saudi Arabia/Iran/Iraq etc to name just a few?

              No the reason people like cash is that it is almost untracable, and that most of us are able to trace their purchases with simple book keeping methods.

              I would not trust the banks, nor any government with the access to ‘my’ money.

              the 00 on your bank account have no value, the little bit of paper cash in the shoebox under the hotwater cupboard on the other hand has.

              • McFlock

                Actually, if the little bit of paper has value then it’s broken as cash.

                Governments can ban/make obsolete any means of exchange they want. Black markets can look for other means of exchange, including cigarettes or stable currencies like USD or RMB, but in general you might equally find that cash in the shoebox useless as a means of exchange. If banning doesn’t work, refusing to honour it as legal tender and no longer integrating it into the digital economy, or even printing gazillions of it to devalue it to a point approaching zero, would seriously damage it as a means of exchange. Weimar Republic, for example.

                • Sabine

                  and this would be the answer

                  Scrip (sometimes called chit) is a term for any substitute for legal tender and is often a form of credit. Scrips were created as company payment of employees under the truck system and also as a means of local commerce in times where regular currency is unavailable, such as remote coal towns, military bases, ships on long voyages, or occupied countries in war time. Besides company scrip, other forms of scrip include land scrip, vouchers, token coins such as subway tokens, IOUs, arcade tokens and tickets, and points on some credit cards.
                  Scrips have gained historical importance and become a subject of study in numismatics and exonumia due to their wide variety and recurring use. Scrip behaves similarly to a currency, and as such can be used to study monetary economics.

                  I honestly would not want my finances at the whim of a government or a bank. In both cases we would be fucked and not in a good way. Greece, no amount of money in the bank without access is gonna pay yer rent or food.

                  The only way we are going cashless is if we abolish the system of money altogether and live in a Utoptia, where everyone is housed, clothed and fed the same. A Utopia where no one is rich nor poor, where all work to provide the things to live, i.e. housing, food and clothes. But thats not gonna work.

                  • McFlock

                    The main reasons government cash is the almost universal means of exchange within a country are the government guarantee (which historically has proved much more reliable than private enterprise guarantees) and the fact that only the government can require people by law to accept that currency as face-value means of exchange (“legal tender”).

                    The funny thing about scrip is that the issuer can stop honouring them, or change the value of them, and many are linked to the government currency anyway and as such are more a loan than a scrip (e.g. the balance on my bus card). The reason companies issue scrip or tokens is simply to lock the consumer into purchasing from that supplier – e.g. my coffee card.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    and this would be the answer

                    No it wouldn’t.There was a reason why such were made illegal and national currency brought in – it’s because the private creators of money always create too much which they can’t actually back. Private creation of money inevitably leads to financial and economic collapse.

                    I honestly would not want my finances at the whim of a government or a bank.

                    And what else do you think will happen if the use of scrip would be allowed?

                    A Utopia where no one is rich nor poor, where all work to provide the things to live, i.e. housing, food and clothes. But thats not gonna work.

                    This is despite the fact that that is how the economy works anyway. The real problem is that we have rich people.

                    • Sabine

                      Answer me this: What good is your money (literally virtual money), if you can’t access it, if you can’t use your bank card, or if your access is blocked by a government?

                      I can see quite a few people barter, trade or institute on a community level something to replace all that virtual money if access is not guaranteed or made hard.

                      I think they call it the black economy, or the under the table economy etc.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      So, you have no answer to the point that your preferred option has been tried before and failed.


                    • McFlock

                      If you can’t access your money it is no good.
                      The same as when banks locked their doors if there was a run on the bank in the pre-electronic days.

                      But the only intrinsic characteristic of money is that it is virtual, whether it’s numbers on a screen or numbers on a bit of paper.

                      I recall reading an article in the 1990s that described the job of an Eastern European factory manager – the economy was in the toilet, so this person’s job involved creating massive networks of barter deals in order to either pay the workers in food or useful goods rather than the toilet paper that was the national currency at the time.

                      A friend of mine recently brought out some family heirlooms – marks from the early 1920s. As the denominations accrued loads of zeros, the size got smaller and the quality rougher. The value of the currency wasn’t the digits, it was what you could exchange for those digits.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      Community currencies, parallel currencies, time banks, IOUs etc.

        • millsy

          Health insurance companies might pull up your transactions and deny you cover because ‘KFC” and “McDonalds” comes up too many times…

        • McFlock

          although gift cards like the kiwipost prezzy cards don’t need id for under $100, ISTR.

      • gsays 3.1.4

        hi b waghorn, with respect, there are far more flaws for us with the proposal of a cashless society.

        i dont want to hand any control to another, least of all the banksters.

        • b waghorn

          I think its inevitable so I would like think people in position s that could have some input into it are doing every thing possible to protect the public.

          • gsays

            do you mean the people like the police, gcsb, or some of those ‘leaders’ in wellington?

            sorry, my friend i do not share your faith in their altruism.

            • Colonial Rawshark

              the finance sector kings and the surveillance industry kings are the ones who are making all the decisions on any such transition to a “cashless society.”

              their concern for the “little person” is not notable; their concern for profit and for knowing everything about your life, while you know nothing about what they are doing, is however.

          • Sabine

            i would not be surprised if/when the ‘cashless’ society comes, that people will use script.
            It has been done before, the best currency my Nana had in the after war years in Germany were cigarettes.

            German ones had a bit of value, American ones like Lucky Strike could buy you heeps of stuff, Russian ciggies rolled in the pravda ….not so much buying power.

            No, like the cash less office, i don’t think we are going to have a cash less society.

  4. Whateva next? 4

    National’s dags being rattled by Parker on National Radio this morning.
    Hope it wipes smirk off Key’s face, watching Key blatantly distract the country by accusing King And Goff of undermining Little was sickening.

  5. Tricledrown 5

    Blinglish saying adjustments about Dairy industry job losses bankruptcies firesale prices for Dairy farms to be snapped up by cashed up countries with long-term agendas.

    • b waghorn 5.1

      And you can bet this government will let nz get sold overseas instead of letting the banks take the hit and land prices fall dramatically.

  6. Jones 6

    Yep… they’re cheerleading a new wave of colonisation… by corporations.

  7. ianmac 7

    Funny that there is nothing re the Saudi sheep Saga (Shagger?) online in the Herald?

    • freedom 7.1

      Just this single piece from the National section.

      First up on RNZ coverage was Goff discussing the accusations from the Government

      The RNZ coverage presented some interesting information. This includes how [then] Agriculture Minister David Carter was publicly saying live sheep exports would not be re-instated, but according to the documents released, was involved in talks about re-instating live exports. (1:45)
      I do wonder how The Speaker will handle questions on this issue in Parliament next week?

      & the chat with David Parker

      • ianmac 7.1.1

        Thanks freedom. I wonder what will happen next. National Radio seems to take the lead so Mr English’s warning that National Radio is a dinosaur must send a warning.
        Seems evident that the Government is happy and confident to lie with impunity regardless of contrary evidence.

      • Tracey 7.1.2

        so the speaker is duplicitous at best and a liar at worst and he is the sole arbiter of MPs behaviour?

        you couldnt make this up.

        • Anne

          It’s been my experience that the truth is always stranger than fiction!

        • freedom

          Not that many years ago, an interview that held revelations involving Government Ministers’ auditioning for the role of TwoFace would have had the Ministers involved looking for new employment by the time their cars arrived to collect them from the studios. Because that’s where they were, in the studio, metaphorically at least. But Ministers barely front up for interviews anymore, unless they have a policy they want to sell, or know of a bus due any minute and who they think should be under it.

          Yes, that’s an exaggeration but let’s be real here, nothing is going to happen. The MSM are showing how compliant they have become. They are lost to us. Thankfully much of the public have taken their voices on-line and are building their own fledging networks of contemporary news and analyses. Not a perfect system but imagine the MSM without the public discourse we have built amongst ourselves over the past decade or so. Having blogs & social media to parry through the melee might be a senseless struggle to some and a waste of resources to others but it does keep the battle going. Even pacifists like me understand to win a war you must stay in the fight.

          Given the duplicity’s wide reaching implications for our democracy, there are plenty of unspoken questions about what else lies beneath the surface of this [and other] Government/s. But those questions are left to fade on the Editor’s to do list. Instead the Editors get their staff to scramble over each other, scratching and tearing at all the shiny things worn by all the shiny people.

          At times like this there are few more rational responses than anger. The public anger that such facts should generate is so stage managed that many people are unsure what they are meant to be focusing their anger on, but they do know they are angry about something.

          The Opposition, stymied by the media’s complicity, is left to struggle against a Speaker who was apparently instrumental in the co-ordination of the circumstances being discussed. Circumstances he has openly assisted the Government in avoiding as he sits as Speaker. When the opposition rise to their feet next week, and hopefully deliver carefully co-ordinated single part questions, they know full well what they will be facing. The Speaker will simply shut down any debate on the topic faster than he closed the door on ‘matters before the court’ that actually weren’t.

          The PM could be asked directly about the blatantly two-faced actions taken by his Minister/s and if, by some miracle, he doesn’t launch into ‘Labour did it! Labour did it! Labour did it!’ we’ll get a shrug, a ‘you know’ then [the now tired] sneer followed by his latest version of ‘there’s always another person with a different interpretation of events’ before he wraps up by attacking another Party’s policies or making some lame joke whilst ignoring the lacklustre demands from the Speaker for him to be seated.

          Yeah I guess you could say I’m less than thrilled about our prospects as a modern democratic state.

  8. Molly 8

    The National Youth Theatre in the UK closes down a production a fortnight before opening night.

    Homegrown (not in the NZ sense) is a promenade play about the radicalisation of young people living in Britain. The idea and the performance sounds great, but it will not be performed.

    The National Youth Theatre (NYT) production was closed down last Thursday, with the creators saying they were given no prior warning. Director Nadia Latif and playwright Omar El-Khairy believe the production was cancelled due to external pressures, claiming both local authorities and police got involved during the development of the play.

    This was about having an intelligent conversation around an issue with hysteria attached, and voices have been silenced
    Nadia Latif, director

    The play, which had a cast of 112 people aged between 15 and 25 – mostly from ethnic minorities – was originally due to take place in a school in Tower Hamlets, less than a mile from the Bethnal Green academy attended by Shamima Begum, Kadiza Sultana and Amira Abase, the schoolgirls believed to have travelled to Syria in February.

    Latif and El-Khairy had developed the play through workshops with the young actors, looking at the emotive issues of jihadi brides and attitudes towards Islam in the UK. Instead of being performed on stage to an audience, it was to be an immersive, promenade production, where the audiences could walk through the school corridors, witnessing conversations and different dramatic moments between the cast.

    Theatre is a great way to get people discussing and talking, and they are missing an opportunity here.

    Not to mention the involvement of 112 local young people, who discover (once again) that their voices are silent.

  9. Molly 9

    How heartening would it be if we could threaten companies such as Miller Argent with the “costs” of their externalities, instead of reading again about their threats to local peoples and governments to act as they see fit.

    Coal company threatens to sue welsh borough if mine permit is denied

    In June, councillors on Caerphilly county borough council’s planning committee unanimously rejected a recommendation by their planning officers to allow Miller Argent to exploit 6m tonnes of coal at Nant Llesg, near Rhymney, but deferred a final decision until Wednesday.

    The company’s application has prompted rallies and a petition by 7,000 people against the mine.

    Miller Argent has written to councillors warning them that it intends to recover all the costs it has incurred so far in its application, as well as the costs of any appeal it might make should councillors refuse its application. It is understood that these costs could amount to more than £100,000.

    “We reiterate that in the event of a refusal and appeal, the substantial costs would be in no one’s interest,” the letter says. “Your officers have highlighted the potential for a substantial award of costs against the council. Miller Argent would seek to recover costs from the council.”

  10. Save NZ 10

    The Guardian’s expert on obfuscation by bureaucratese and acronym, Steven Poole, recently argued that TTIP could be a conspiracy to pull some very thick wool over our eyes. We live in an age when we’re so accustomed to being entertained that we haven’t the temperament to do the difficult work of penetrating the wool of boring. So we’re going to take that wool, roll it into a ball and leave it for the cat to play with. No, don’t look at the cat. Look at me. Focus.


  11. Anybody hearing about the Turks bombing Kurdish anti-ISIS positions and the US bombing Syria to create an ISIS free safe zone? Neh, I didn’t think so! I mean why keep us posted on an area where NZ soldiers are involved in another war crime of apocalyptic proportions?

  12. Tautoko Mangō Mata 13

    This excerpt from the Leaked TPP IP chapter would appear to be affecting Māori sovereignty.

    Article QQ.E.23[95]: {Traditional Knowledge, Traditional Cultural Expressions and Genetic
    [PE/NZ/VN/BN/MX/SG/CL/MY propose[96]: 1. The parties recognise the importance and contribution
    of traditional knowledge, traditional cultural expressions, and biological diversity to cultural, economic
    and social development.]
    [[97]PE/MY/MXBN propose; NZ/AU/SG/CL oppose: 2. Each Party exercises sovereignty over their
    biological [MY/BN oppose: diversity] [MY/BN propose: resources] and shall determine the access
    conditions to their genetic resources and their derivatives in accordance to their domestic legislation.]

  13. Save NZ 14

    Don’t forget to PROTEST AGAINST TPPA – our government is very keen to sign our sovereignty away. Just because they didn’t do it last week – they seem confident that they will next time so show the government the people mean business!

    Here are the details


    15 August protest, 11am at Kohukohu Village Green.


    15 August protest, 11am at the Town Basin.


    15 August protest, 1pm at Aotea Square to march down Queen Street, featuring speakers and music.


    15 August protest, Meet @ 1pm outside Cock and Bull carpark on corner of Church and Maui.


    8 August, 10 am @ Red Square (Downtown Tauranga) for ‘Chalk n talk’.

    9 August, Johns Key’s birthday bash with live music and Cake Signing the giant card.

    10 August at lunch time, Banner making in Red Square.

    12 August, Nag banner from cambridge rd over bridge.

    13 August, signs on the road side

    14th August – public meeting

    15 August protest at 1pm, Red Square.

    15 August protest, details to come.


    15 August protest, 1pm, location to be announced.


    8 August protest, 1pm, march from Silver Ball in the market to Majestic Square.

    New Plymouth

    Protest planned, details to come

    Palmerston North

    (Before Action Week) – At 7pm on July 29th Palmerston North City Library is hosting a panel discussion on the TPPA, featuring Assoc Prof Jeff Sluka, Dr Deborak Russell and Dr Shamin Shukur (compere: Assoc Prof Bill Fish).

    Art and photo exhibition planned with accompanying information, concert and talks

    8 August Rally and concert, 1pm – 3:30pm in the Square in the quadrant opposite The Plaza. Keynote speech from Barry Coates, including Dr Romauld Rudzki, Dr Deborah Russell, Dr Jeff Sluka and Cr Lew Findlay, and local musicians.

    14 August will be a concert in the library at 5pm, then documentary maker and investigative journalist Bryan Bruce will speak at 6pm on Poverty, Inequality & the TPPA.

    Many committed P North activists will also be heading to Wellington on 15 August.


    7-13 August – The People Speak #STOPTPPA. NZ Photo exhibition (10am-5pm)

    12 August – Lunchtime rally outside Parliament with politicians and speakers.

    15 August – TPPA Walk Away! Protest action to stop the TPPA. Assemble at Midland Park and march to Parliament for speakers and music. More details to come.


    15 August protest at 11:00am, top of Trafalgar St – 1903 Square.


    10 August political debate at 6pm, Canterbury Horticultural Society (57 Riccarton Avenue), featuring David Parker, Russell Norman, Fletcher Tabuteau and Marama Fox.

    12 August film screening of ‘Inequality for All” by economist Robert Reich, 6pm at The Auricle (35 New Regent Street).

    14 August New Economics Seminar and Expo, 7pm at Horticultural Hall.

    15 August protest at 12:30pm. Location: South Hagley Park (corner Deans Ave and Riccarton Rd) marching down Riccarton Rd.


    15 August protest planned, details to come.


    15 August protest at 1pm, marching from the Dental School to the Octagon.


    15 August protest, 12pm at Wachner Place.

  14. Sabine 15

    Draco T Bastard:
    So, you have no answer to the point that your preferred option has been tried before and failed.

    your answer to my question here

    Answer me this: What good is your money (literally virtual money), if you can’t access it, if you can’t use your bank card, or if your access is blocked by a government?

    I can see quite a few people barter, trade or institute on a community level something to replace all that virtual money if access is not guaranteed or made hard.

    I think they call it the black economy, or the under the table economy etc.


    ok, so I have linked to a Wiki Page that explains the use of scrip / chits throught the history of banking.

    I have mentioned bartering, trading, or exchanging goods at an agreed value,

    I have raised my reasons as to why i am not deluded into thinking that a benevolent government would run our cashless society that you advocate (i still would love the Start Trek years, but alas i will only live the years of the war leading up to the Vulcan arriving and providing humanity with Warp Speed).

    I have mentioned cigarettes as currency as used in the after war years of Germany, my mother has good memories of picking up buds, taking them home, cleaning them, re-rolling the cleaned tobacco and then using it on the black market as currency before the great new introduction of the Deutsch Mark.

    And you are saying that my preferred option has not been successfully tried before? Really? I mean Really?

    So I am sorry, but there are more examples of humanity using what ever they can as currency, in abscence of anything better.

    And if your cashless society comes true, i bet you a hundered chits that there will be immediately a different cash form available for those that don’t want to use the government sanctioned, controlled and government depended ‘credit/debit’ cards.

    You need to prove that your idea is better, and at the moment i see you failing.

    • McFlock 15.1

      Actually, nobody needs to prove a damned thing.

      The current advantage of cash over electronics isn’t trust so much as the convenience of universality – almost everyone can take cash, not everyone can take cards as that involves a cost outlay. When that advantage no longer exists, cash will slowly be phased out.

      There is a hybrid option that might persist as a transitional step if manufacturing costs approach negligible: individual tokens like debit cards that have a display of their remaining balance. They can be physically exchanged, or debited (transferring between tokens would be more difficult and would require each token to be networked, although thinking about it one could organise some sort of exchange protocol that involves the token uploading and confirmation of transaction histories at merchant terminals).

      That sort of thing was in the 1980s series Max Headroom, for the scifi folks out there 🙂

    • Draco T Bastard 15.2

      And you are saying that my preferred option has not been successfully tried before?

      It’s been tried and failed and linked to some information on it. There’s more around on the same site if you look.

      Sure, the laws that got put in place empowered the private banks which is why we need to change the laws and make it so that only the government an create money.

      Hell, we technically already have your system in that the private banks create money every time a loan is made and is failing miserably.

      And if your cashless society comes true, i bet you a hundered chits that there will be immediately a different cash form available for those that don’t want to use the government sanctioned, controlled and government depended ‘credit/debit’ cards.

      Probably because we’ve been taught that government is bad and that stealing from them is good. Of course, stealing from the government is stealing from yourself and so you’re actually worse off.

      You need to prove that your idea is better, and at the moment i see you failing.

      You’re being wilfully blind.


      1. It’s cheaper as it uses less resources
      2. It’s more secure – can’t be stolen
      3. Makes it easier to determine taxes
      4. Makes it easier to find crime


      1. It may go offline occasionally
      2. Everyone will need a cellphone

      • Colonial Rawshark 15.2.1

        Jeeesus DTB “it can’t be stolen”

        FFS someone can press a button and haircut it or take it all in a microsecond.

  15. Chooky 16

    ‘ASEAN wants China to stop work in disputed sea: official’



    “KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia (AP) — Southeast Asian nations want China to stop land reclamation in the disputed South China Sea, a regional official said Tuesday, but China insisted it has a right to continue the activity.

    Le Luong Minh, secretary-general of the 10-member Association of Southeast Asian Nations, said ASEAN foreign ministers expressed concerns in a meeting Tuesday over massive Chinese island-building activities that have escalated tensions in the area…

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    • McFlock 16.1

      lol no shit.

      China says it’s all their territory, a load of other nations disagree. It was in this area that Chinese and US aircraft collided in 2001. Lol, and it was the macguffin for a James Bond movie, I think The world is not enough.

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