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Open Mike 05/12/2016

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, December 5th, 2016 - 95 comments
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95 comments on “Open Mike 05/12/2016”

  1. Adrian Thornton 1

    So Labour down in the poll of polls, sad but unsurprising.
    Strange that Labour NZ can’t or won’t see that it’s centrist free market ideological position has left it, like so many western Left parties. politically redundant.
    No it seems this Labour party is about act out that old saying in front of our eyes again,
    ‘The definition of insanity is to do the same thing and expect a different result’

    It is about time Labour shed itself of that scourge of the modern Left, the free market, Neo-liberal ideology that has effectively destroyed Labour from within, and stop living in fear of the middle class vote.
    It is time to stand on some real old schools socialist principles, at least then even if we do go down to National, we can do it with our heads held high, not cowering like beaten dogs to the media and some perceived voting block that may or may not even exist for Labour.

    Turn labour left.

    • garibaldi 1.1

      I think you are dead right Adrian, but it just ain’t going to happen with the caucus they’ve got. Unless they have a cunning plan to be centrist until in power and then creep to the left…. but no, not with that caucus.
      So we really have no choice but to back the MOU and hope for a “kinder” government.
      The Opportunity Party is starting policy release this week. Fingers crossed?

      • Adrian Thornton 1.1.1

        What I just can’t understand is why those centrist freemarket fuckers insist on staying and destroying Labour? the Labour brand has obviously has outlived it’s usefulness for them, and they are quite open about their lust for power, to quote Stuart Nash…
        “Let’s be clear about one thing: politics is about winning. There is no such thing as a ‘glorious defeat’, leaders who lose are not, as some may believe, ‘martyrs to the cause’, and ‘coming second but maintaining our principles’ is a ludicrous proposition”

        Just listen to that centrist shill Mike Williams on National radio Mondays mornings, it is enough to make you lose your breakfast, eaten up and spat out by Hooton every week, because he has essentially nothing to say, why, because at heart he is on the the same playing field ideologically as Hooton.

        So the Labour brand is bad for them and it is certainly the death nail for a progressive socialist left, so why can’t we all just agree this hasn’t worked out, and go our separate ways?

        • Draco T Bastard

          Those shills are still in positions of power that they won’t be in after they transfer to National.

        • The Chairman

          “What I just can’t understand is why those centrist freemarket fuckers insist on staying and destroying Labour?”

          The most logical reason is it’s a strategical move to ensure Labour are either destroyed, or if they ever gain power, are no longer a political threat to the neo-liberal way.

    • Stunned Mullet 1.2

      Hi Adrian

      What are the real old school socialist principles you’d like Labour to stand upon and aren’t many of them already part of Green Party policy ?

    • alwyn 1.3

      Why on earth are you surprised that National is getting ever further in front?

      Why don’t you listen to this bit of Morning Report. The people who do the business news tend to look more realistically at the economy instead of the hard left political rubbish spouted by like Hill.
      Just listen to this without putting your hands over your ears and going “Nah, nah, nah, nah …”. It only takes a couple of minutes.

      Now you should see why the depressing negative rubbish being spouted by Little Andrew goes down like a lead balloon. The public can see that he is just talking total rubbish and that he, and his party and fellow travellers like the Greens, are so totally divorced from reality.
      The economy and the country are doing very well. People can see this and want it to continue. That is why the current Government is popular. As Bill Clinton said
      “It’s the economy, stupid”

      • Draco T Bastard 1.3.1

        Business isn’t the be all, end all of society. In fact, it tends to be the end of society as it destroys social ties.

      • Adrian Thornton 1.3.3

        Ha that is really funny, are you actually really being serious, or are you just taking the piss?
        Those so called economist on National radio every morning are generally the banks own economists, so yes the economy is working extremely well for them, with NZ house hold debt at the highest it has ever been recorded, who do you think that debt is owed to?

        And then the best part is to top it off you quote Bill Clinton, the guy who unhooked the US financial from regulatory oversight that lead directly to the 2008 crash,

        “It’s the economy, stupid” yeh that is true, but not the debunked free market type, neo-liberial model which in case you haven’t noticed is imploding before our very eyes…maybe you need to take your hands off your ears and stop saying nah nah nah pal.

        • alwyn

          I didn’t actually say I agreed with the things Clinton did, or approved of him personally.
          He did however win elections and he did it by concentrating on what actually mattered to people who vote. His own wife forgot it of course and basically Trump stole the idea and won.
          However the general public in New Zealand are happy with what is happening, and rightly so. We have done much better than most of the countries in the OECD. If you can’t realise that you certainly can’t understand why the parties you support are sinking into their state of irrelevance.

      • ropata 1.3.5

        $4.28 billion international education industry rife with fraud…

        Nice one FJK. I guess fraud is natural for an ex-Merrill Lynch money trader.

        This has been common knowledge for at least 10 years. But when you’re talking about billions of dollars, morals take a back seat.

        • james

          So if it was common knowledge when Labour were in power – would you consider it fraud for the leader of labour at the time?

          Was Aunty Helen giving morals a back seat with this common knowledge?

      • The Chairman 1.3.6

        @ alwyn

        This (link below) is a good illustration of how our economy is genuinely performing.


        • alwyn

          I don’t actually have any problem with the last few years.

          As a very simple summary.
          I can quite happily accept Current Account Deficits, as a percentage of GDP, where the deficit is roughly equal to the growth in the GDP.
          In that case the accumulated deficit remains at approximately the same percentage of our GDP from year to year and doesn’t keep on increasing.
          This has been the case from 2013 to 2016.
          2012 was a little bit excessive as we didn’t have a 4% growth in GDP that year.
          The years from 2005 to 2008 were grossly excessive.

          A single year doesn’t matter very much. In particular a short term period of high deficits caused by something like the Christchurch earthquake isn’t really a problem. There was nothing special about the 2005 – 2008 timespan however and the GDP was certainly not increasing by the 7%-8% figure that those deficits would require.

          What do you think the current problem really is?

          • The Chairman

            The problem is the country is doing all that hard for no net fiscal benefit.

            The return from offshore investment is bleeding us dry.

            “I can quite happily accept Current Account Deficits, as a percentage of GDP, where the deficit is roughly equal to the growth in the GDP. “

            So you are happy with the country doing all this hard work for no net benefit?

            • alwyn

              “So you are happy with the country doing all this hard work for no net benefit?”.
              That comment makes no sense at all.

              • The Chairman

                No. It seems you merely failed to understand it.

                If the deficit is equivalent to the growth in GDP it highlights that the fiscal benefit from the work done to produce that GDP is heading offshore.

                And you’re happy with that?

                • alwyn

                  That is back to front.
                  When we have a current account deficit it means we get to import more than we export. We aren’t consuming less. We are able to consume more. Thus we are better off than we would be. It doesn’t mean that we are worse off.

                  If we are running a surplus on the current account it means we are consuming less than we produce. People could consume more, and have a higher standard of living if we were to reduce the surplus.

                  The problem with a deficit is that it relies on some kind foreigner financing it. If they decide not to do so and won’t loan us any more money or put money into financing our capital assets we may have to cut the deficit in a hurry. That hasn’t happened in New Zealand. We have been running a current account deficit, and thereby consuming more than we produce for more than 40 years.

                  If you are running a surplus it is up to you whether you start consuming more. Other countries opinions don’t count.

                  • The Chairman

                    The current account balance is not only the sum of the balance of trade in goods and services, but also current transfers, and investment income.

                    It’s the big picture. But interestingly enough, it’s seldom discussed by the media.

                    The reason for the improvement in the current account deficit when Key became PM is largely down to higher commodity prices improving our balance of trade, hence little to do with the Government of the day.

                    A deficit means the country is spending more than it actually earns (locally and from offshore)

                    If we are running a surplus on the current account it means we are earning more than we spend, hence aren’t reliant on offshore debt and or investment. Nor are we so vulnerable to economic challenges. Which is where we really want to be.

                    A surplus also means we can afford to consume more.

                    A deficit puts the country in a highly volatile position. Putting us at higher risk, which can impact upon our credit rating, thus interest rates and ability to borrow.

                    And although we have been running a deficit for decades, it’s far from the ultimate economic position to be in.

                    Therefore, all this talk about NZ having good growth in comparison to other nations overlooks how we are achieving that growth (largely growing debt and offshore investment) while also overlooking who is largely benefiting from that growth – i.e. offshore investors.

      • Cinny 1.3.7

        Alwyn, diversify your outings when you are out and about, see what happens, listen, ask questions, go somewhere you would not usually visit, interact with people, because not everything is how you see it or even how I see it Alwyn.

        It’s hard to hear in an echo chamber.

        If any want to improve their lives and the lives of others, then we have to and we will change the government.

        • alwyn

          But Cinny I do listen to many views and I do meet a lot of people.
          Do you? Or do you perhaps limit your interactions to the “right thinking” people who agree with you?
          Do you read blogs, or papers, that disagree with you own ideas? Have you ever read Kiwiblog or, horror of horrors, something by Cameron Slater?

          I am in favour of the idea that I should “improve my live and the lives of others”. However with the people in the Labour and Green parties in New Zealand that will certainly not happen if they came to power and implemented the ideas they propose.

    • Gosman 1.4

      Why hasn’t that work for the Mana party and why would those reasons not apply equally to Labour if they attempted the same thing as Mana?

      • Siobhan 1.4.1

        Well thats a no brainer…Because Mana Party has some very strong ‘characters’ that would make them very marginal in the eyes of the majority of Left voters.
        I suspect that if Mana changed colours and came forward with the exact same policies as Centrist Labour (or National!) they still wouldn’t get enough thumbs up in a poll to break the margin of error.

    • Peter 1.5

      I have to say I agree with what you say, NZ does not need two so called centrist parties.

  2. AsleepWhileWalking 2

    On December 20th the FCC will vote on regulation of the Internet. I think it is certain to pass to the detriment of us all.


    For those who don’t have online businesses that sell to US consumers, the regulations are extensive and failing to have something as basic as a privacy policy can net you a $25K USD fine.

    Worse still if someone associated with the product you are marketing is found to have mislead consumers you are fined DUE TO ASSOCIATION alone (ie you are marketing the same product), even if you didn’t know the person/company involved. If you don’t pay you end up in a kanagroo court with an even worse penalty on it’s way. Because this is considered fraud you cannot discharge the fine in bankruptcy, nor can you hide behind a corporate veil. This happened a few years ago to well known marketer Frank Kern through what appears to be no fault of his own.

    Now with the vote it looks like more of this type of action will extend to other areas of the Internet.

  3. ianmac 3

    Don’t usually agree with Deborah Hill-Cone but this time she has nailed it. (Something good in the Herald for once?)
    “Note to Minister of Social Development Anne Tolley: Try stopping being a politician for a minute, and just listen.”….
    “…reasons why Ms Tolley needs to rethink her arrogant attitude to victims who have been abused in state care, and immediately order an independent inquiry into the extent of the abuse.”

    • Anne 3.1

      Here’s the reason why they won’t call an independent inquiry. MONEY. They don’t want to pay out the money.


      Kim Hill has seen the cabinet papers. She is brilliant. Key is no match for her!

      • Rosemary McDonald 3.1.1

        “Kim Hill has seen the cabinet papers.”

        In my experience, Cabinet Papers, for all they sound rilly rilly official and based on evidence and all that, can be complete and utter bullshit…depending on the information, data and advice Cabinet receive from the Ministry or Department concerned.

        (The Cabinet Papers for leading up to the PHDAct(2) were a prime example of this…official sounding fairytales…much of which can now be seriously questioned.)

        • Anne

          When she mentioned the Cabinet Papers, I think she was reading between the lines and she will be right. Of course it is all about the money.

          I agree with you. Cabinet Papers are often nothing but a load of tosh. They represent what the authors know the government wants to hear which may bear no resemblance to reality. It is especially the case with this incompetent and deceitful government.

        • repateet

          “…can be complete and utter bullshit.”
          Can be.

          Can they be full and illuminating? Can they be enlightening? Can they be detailed? Can they be informative? Can they be instructive? Can they be useful?

          • Rosemary McDonald

            “Can they be full and illuminating? Can they be enlightening? Can they be detailed? Can they be informative? Can they be instructive? Can they be useful?”

            All of the above, repateet, all of the above.

            Points to minds that work in twisty, devious and nasty ways….almost sociopathic…

            The authors of these Cabinet Papers sincerely believe (I believe) that they can write this rubbish and we will all accept it as gospel. We won’t.

            And the trouble is, that there is a growing number of us that KNOW that these Cabinet Papers, these ‘show your working’ documents, are flawed and misrepresentative and this completely undermines any faith we may have had in honest, transparent government.

            Corrupt? Incompetent?

            Or a bit of both.

  4. Anne 4

    Good on you Hayley Holt. It shows not all media presenters/reporters are gullible John Key acolytes. Although I fear most of them are…


    • Puckish Rogue 4.1


    • DoublePlusGood 4.2

      I’m not sure about this – candidates who are picked for being famous on TV haven’t worked out great (Tamati Coffey, Maggie Barry…) – we need people with expertise in policy areas and/or their local communities so the government can actually function.

      • Anne 4.2.1

        She hasn’t a show of beating John Key. My point is: she’s not a JK acolyte – one of the few media or ex-media personalities who seem capable of rising above him.

        • b waghorn

          I’d love to see key pull her hair, she’d put the shit bag on the floor i reckon.

        • Andre

          Looks like maybe she’s a bit more politically scary than you thought!

        • Adrian

          She already has, he couldn’t face losing votes to a girl. Apologies Hayley,though I bet that’s what’s she is secretly saying.

  5. Andre 5

    More about how the web is distorting information flow and helping fake news. With some emphasis on how Google’s autocomplete is helping spread some nasty stuff.


  6. joe90 6

    A new anthem and platitudes from AG Lynch.

    EXCLUSIVE: We partnered with @TabBep @VICE to premiere new video "Stand Up/Stand N Rock" https://t.co/tfcWpXxGGh #NoDAPL— Hip Hop Caucus (@HipHopCaucus) December 4, 2016


  7. ropata 7

    I think this requires a Caption contest 🙂

    with @paulabennettmp #PiratePower pic.twitter.com/ReRmbACTAg— Judith Collins (@JudithCollinsMP) November 30, 2016

    • Puckish Rogue 7.1

      They can shiver my timbers any day of the week, if they’re ok with that sort of thing and in a completely respectful and consensual manner of course, taking into account everyones personal preferences.

  8. ropata 8

    Trotter has written a great piece that’s doing the rounds on Twitter

    "Die Boomers, Die!" – Let's hope it never comes to this. https://t.co/UNTPGykzz7— CHRIS TROTTER (@BowalleyRoad) December 4, 2016

    (also on TDB)

    • Puckish Rogue 8.1

      Yeah I know what you mean, a .50 cals a bit of over kill, I’d have used a 7.62 round instead 🙂

  9. mauī 9

    Media brings in its shock troops after heavy defeat and embarrassment.

    • The Chairman 9.1

      Phil Quin.

    • The Chairman 9.2

      “By election victories can be curses in disguise, causing party strategists to double-down on a failing strategy.”

      After listening to Labour go on about their Mt Roskill win, this is a real concern.

      I’m afraid I have to concur with Quin.

      “These signs of complacency ought to worry anyone who wants to see the back of John Key next year.”  

  10. james 10

    This should make some on here pretty happy:


    protesters WIN their bid to stop pipeline being built through Standing Rock

    • b waghorn 11.1

      can i suggest people don’t cheer to loudly just yet, incase there is a sad reason for it.

  11. DoublePlusGood 13

    Fuck yes, Key is gone!!!

  12. Craig H 14

    Key is stepping down.

  13. dv 15

    Jeez youse guys are quick.

  14. Rosemary McDonald 16

    Key spouts more drivel…talks about ‘honesty’, nose grows….

    Reason for quitting….we will never know the truth.

    However, he was a devil we knew….

    • Muttonbird 16.1

      Knows the housing market is going to crash under the weight of increasing interest rates and couldn’t bear the thought if getting beaten next year as a consequence.

      That is my guess.

  15. adam 17

    It would seem that trump is doubling down on the far right hate message. He has appointed Steve Bannon as white house strategist. Fun times.

  16. Poission 18

    Anti establishment referendum rejects Renzi.


  17. Poission 19

    Breaking news key to resign

  18. Adrian Thornton 20

    John Key resigns, what a great start to the week, I feel some how cleaner…


    I guess it will be left to English ( and he is a real believer) to carry on driving this neo-liberal train wreck toward the inevitable cliff, .

    John bails before the looming economic disaster, so as always will come out of the shit smelling like roses.

    • Puckish Rogue 20.1

      Three election wins and remains not out, also the only way the left were ever going to beat John Key, sorry Sir John Key

      Shame he didn’t want to win a fourth but he obviously puts his family before personal glory:

      “This is the hardest decision I’ve ever made and I don’t know what I’ll do next.”

      Key cited family reasons for leaving, saying the job had required great sacrifices “from those who are dearest to me”.

      His wife Bronagh had endured “many lonely nights” and his children Stephie and Max had been put under “extraordinary levels of intrusion”.

      He also said it was the right time to leave, as National were polling at nearly 50 per cent and the economy was growing.

      Nothing like leaving the party in good strength 🙂

      • Muttonbird 20.1.1

        So his main reason is because of intrusion into his family’s life. Ironic since it was he who used his family as a major plank in his own marketing.

        • Puckish Rogue

          Its also quite good that a politician has left while on top rather then being voted out

  19. Ppeter Swift 21

    Breaking news… People don’t read above before posting breaking news.

    Oh and John Key’s resigned. lol

  20. Peter Swift 22

    Breaking news… People don’t read above before posting breaking news.

    Oh and John Key’s resigned. lol

  21. ianmac 23

    ALERT ALERT! According to this JOHN KEY is Stepping down as PM! What? Is it a trick?!!!

    • ianmac 23.1

      It is True!!!! Key Resigns!

  22. ianmac 24

    They will elect a new Leader next Monday. Who will it be?

    • Cinny 24.1

      shouldn’t there be a snap election? public voted for Key to lead, not for someone else. Least that’s how I see it.

  23. Puckish Rogue 25

    So since Sir John Key is going and Winston doesn’t like Key does this mean now that the main stumbling block between National and NZFirst going into power together has now been removed?

    NZFirst always did seem like a more natural fit than NZFirst and Lab/Green…

    Win the battle but lose the war springs to mind 🙂

    • It’s a very dark day for you, Pucky – I feel your pain and wish I’d taken you up on your bet 🙂

      • Puckish Rogue 25.1.1

        Ok so do you think this decision opens the door for National to welcome back the prodigal son?

        • Robert Guyton

          The John Key-led Government will not win in 2017
          (Something I’ve long believed)

          🙂 🙂 🙂

          • Puckish Rogue

            I think this decision has strengthened the possibility of National being in charge after 2017 (just not with John Key)

            Keen for a bet?

    • The Chairman 25.2

      “So since Sir John Key is going and Winston doesn’t like Key does this mean now that the main stumbling block between National and NZFirst going into power together has now been removed?”

      It potentially increases the possibility.

  24. Adrian Thornton 27

    Shame that Stuart Nash just came out recently and said he would stick with Labour, it turns out a job that would suit him down to the ground just became available this afternoon…talk about about bad timing.

  25. Observer Tokoroa 29

    Why are the Trolls so pessimistic?
    They are wealthy. They are married to the prettiest girls in the land who play Tennis to fill in the week days. They have brilliant children. They have fantastic amounts of retirement money. They believe in themselves. More importantly they own numbers of houses from which they are getting fabulous Rents. They love hundreds of thousands of immigrants.

    So why are they to a man – all hang dog and abusive?

    Do you think they should go to the doctor and get a tonic? They are so Angry. Always Angry.

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