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Open mike 06/07/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 6th, 2020 - 180 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

180 comments on “Open mike 06/07/2020 ”

  1. Sacha 1

    Yep, sucking up to TERFs is surely the key to our recovery. Wonder how it got missed from her speech..

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    [non-bold, general moderator comment below. Everyone please read before commenting in this subthread – weka]

    • Sacha 1.1

      Expecting this irrelevant comment to be moved to Open Mike in 3,2,1..

    • Incognito 1.2

      Your comment seems uncharacteristically off!?

    • Tabletennis 1.3

      Who needs misogyny when you have women who use slurs to shut other women up – the mob cancel culture.
      Who dare they to express their concerns.

      • Sacha 1.3.1


        Speech has consequences. Speech intended to eliminate a group of people tends to attract ire. Moreso than 'slurs' in general, especially when the term in question was coined by the people who it is being applied to. Only a slur once it became inconvenient.

        • Tabletennis

          It still not clear to you that a large group will feel eliminated if certain policy changes will be implemented. Maybe you are not interested, so be it – but your very nasty misogynistic slur outburst got me reacting.
          Your attitude belongs much more at home in the front bench of the NP.

          • Sacha

            Perhaps reflect on 'feels' eliminated vs actually being eliminated. I'm sure the KKK feel really victimised these days too.

    • Gabby 1.4

      What the fuck is TERF?

      • Incognito 1.4.1

        WTF don’t you use Google or another search engine?

        First hit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TERF

        • Gabby

          So lazy fuckers take the time to type their bullshitty jargon out in full that's why the fuck.

          • Incognito

            I call BS on that. If they had typed “trans-exclusionary radical feminist” you would have been none the wiser and you would have said “What the fuck is trans-exclusionary radical feminist?”. However, if you did know what “trans-exclusionary radical feminist” stands for you would have known the acronym TERF. You could have looked it up yourself or asked nicely but you did neither because you knew exactly what TERF means, didn’t you? Your foul language gave it away, IMHO.

            • Gabby

              I know now and it was clearly a lie, which would have been apparent had it been written in full. Probably why it wasn't, IMHO.

              • Incognito

                Let’s do a search here on TS on “Gabby” and “TERF” and see what comes up, shall we?

                Any guesses what we might find?

                • Gabby

                  Go on then, IYHO what are you predicting?

                  • Incognito

                    My guess is that there’s high chance that it will show that in all likelihood you knew the meaning of the acronym. Are you still denying that?

                    • Gabby

                      Have you done it yet?

                    • Incognito []

                      No, not yet, but I’ll get to it, don’t you worry. I can’t stand dishonesty.

                    • Gabby

                      I'm not a big fan of dishonesty either.

                    • Gabby

                      Well I've just invested 30 secs of time and .. nuttin. Looking forward to your findings.

                    • Incognito []

                      Why? Afraid that you have a TERF skeleton in your closet that I might find? You don’t trust your own memory? I don’t trust mine so I can understand that.

                    • Gabby

                      I have zero trust in my own memory. Someone could have told me what it meant last week and I could have forgotten it while retaining contempt for its bullshitty jargon. Do you have any reason to believe that the person it was flung at, is a radical feminist?

                    • Incognito []

                      Your contempt was obvious, which caught my attention and it begged the question why you’d react in such a way if you didn’t know what you were reacting to and why. It came across as disingenuous and dishonest. So, I will do some detective work and will get back to you with my findings. At this stage, I think I’ll have difficulty accepting the John Key ‘excuse’ of ‘actually, I have no recollection of that but what I can say, at the end of the day, is that it made my blood boil’. Not too late to come clean 😉

                    • Gabby

                      Do you have any reason to believe that the person hectored is a radical feminist? That's what the RF stands for.

        • greywarshark

          I looked up that link Rosemary. Deals with the female-centred wash from idle, amoral minds swamping the world. Really ugly. In the past one didn't know or even suspect the awful side of people's minds and thoughts. Now they flaunt all their sick-minded unlovely negativity and dislike across the world as if it is some revelation to spread for everyone's education.

          It is on a par with what Germany suffered at the hands of Nazis. They built up bad attitudes to Jews, which then enabled them to start physical attacks etc. which were largely accepted, despite protests from many and then increased in severity. Society has indulged itself in punishing the 'other' with witch-baiting and burning, watching mad people as if a circus, seeing public hangings as a spectacle.

          We need to be careful of building up outrage, one group versus another, when either group becomes swollen with resentment and anger.

          There seems to be a madness that arises from a mindset that can grow in societies – to fix on a group or person to be a scapegoat for all to focus their negative feelings on, their discontent either with themselves, others, or anything. In psychology they call this projection.

          Psychological projection is a defense mechanism people subconsciously employ in order to cope with difficult feelings or emotions. Psychological projection involves projecting undesirable feelings or emotions onto someone else, rather than admitting to or dealing with the unwanted feelings. https://www.everydayhealth.com/emotional-health/psychological-projection-dealing-with-undesirable-emotions/

          eg as in – https://rdln.wordpress.com/2020/06/24/new-misogyny-has-many-forms/

          and then a heightened response to every comment prevents any rationality in discussion – https://rdln.wordpress.com/2020/06/20/stuff-continues-the-diatribes-against-j-k-rowling/

          The approach of focussing the dark thoughts of society on one thing or being was the subject of a play by a USA author. One person would be stoned to death each year as part of the culture of a particular area. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lottery

          More than ever we need to have the study of human personality and philosophy to help us control what must be atavistic tendencies that need to be controlled by the healthy, balanced mind. So we need more Humanities, not seeing them wiped from tertiary study in favour of Science.

          • Rosemary McDonald

            Really ugly. In the past one didn't know or even suspect the awful side of people's minds and thoughts. Now they flaunt all their sick-minded unlovely negativity and dislike across the world as if it is some revelation to spread for everyone's education.



    • weka 1.5

      Moving this to OM from the "Jacinda’s address to the Labour Congress" post because I want to address it without derailing another author's post.

      I consider TERF to be a slur. Like many words directed at women, it has other uses too, but most use now is perjorative and often abusive (thinking twitter here). It is so ubiquitously used as a pejorative now that this is true irrespective of how the person using it intends.

      From a moderator perspective, I will maintain boundaries here for the sake of both trans people and gender critical feminists. Calling a commenter a terf will get my moderator attention, calling women offsite might too. Talking about 'terf' in a gender context I'll take each situation as it goes. In this case Sacha, acknowledging letting your bitchy side come out gave some context, but it was still a flamey derail that in other places would have devolved into a shit show.

      I'm not willing to let that shitshow happen on TS, for the sake of TS and also for the sake of trans people, women and GCFs. It's already really hard for women to take part here, especially women authors. That longstanding issue has not been resolved and as a feminist who has to limit what she can write about because of that, I'm not ok with another layer of trouble being added to this space. I also consider TS to not be particularly safe for trans and non-binary people either.

      It's possible that the gender war issues will be an election issue. Also possible that people here will want to discuss them. So I'm signalling some boundaries around managing those conversations so that the robust debate and the 'tone/language not excluding others' ethos are maintained.

      Happy to have discussion about this if anyone needs clarification. I'm not available for an argument today.


      • Sacha 1.5.1

        The original comment was an utter derail in itself – like responding to a detailed economic policy post by asking what Labour would do about whale strandings or middle-east political prisoners.

        Kind of disappointed it was not moved here along with my response. However I do not see any conversation about this ending constructively in this place. So I won't.

        • Sacha

          To be clear, I do respect your reasoning and your broader understanding of the context here – and I expected other moderators might have moved my comment at the time. Not aiming to cause trouble when election season will bring plenty of that. Cheers

          • Incognito

            This Moderator made a judgement call yesterday to leave things as they were and see how the thread would evolve rather than to move it pre-emptively. Robust debate sometimes means hanging out the dirty laundry, having the hard conversations, be open and honest – warts and all – but above all, being respectful of others. Unfortunately, I don’t think the TS commentariat is ready for certain conversations. QED.

      • anker 1.5.2

        Great stuff Weka. Thanks

  2. Will Labour review the Defence budget in light of the economic effect of Covid?

    Namely the 20 billion to be spent over the next 11 years, which could be much better spent enhancing lives

    I'm all for the idea of armed neutrality


    All joking aside, New Zealand may have to do a Switzerland and become an armed neutrality in order to distance ourselves from our Anzac partner Australia and its developing and alarming cold war machinations with China.

    • The Chairman 2.1

      With China's growing aggression and countries building up their arsenal while strengthening their international ties as a counter, one would expect there will be growing international pressure for us to spend more. Therefore, it is unlikely we will cut back our military spend and more likely we will be pressured to up it.

      • I Feel Love 2.1.1

        It's a losing game, the NY Police force has a bigger budget than the NZ military, and that's with the NYP slashing theirs by a billion dollars.

        • The Chairman

          It's largely a loss for our economy but no doubt a gain for the arms dealers.

    • Gabby 2.2

      Armed neutrality is very expensive. I propose allowing the people who own the country to defend it. That's Australia and China mostly.

    • Treetop 2.3

      I think the Defence budget is about right. The country needs to be prepared for military issues. Covid-19 has shown me how important it is to have the defence force to fall back on when it comes to quarantine.

      Some air craft needed to be decommissioned a decade ago, not sure if the orions or the hercs but I am surprised they are not dropping out of the sky.

      • The Chairman 2.3.1

        National supported the 20 billion spend. Little wasn't convinced but Labour's stance changed when Jacinda became leader.

        • Treetop

          109 trades on offer in Defence. I have seen overseas how important it is to be able to deploy the military in your own country.

          Replacing dilapidated aircraft is not cheap but necessary.

          • The Chairman

            Replacing dilapidated aircraft is not cheap but necessary.

            Housing the homeless and ensuring beneficiaries attain enough so they can afford to live is also not cheap. Nor is ensuring nurses, teachers and other public servants are fairly paid.

            So I guess it all depends on what you deem is more necessary?

            • Treetop

              All necessary and more.

              What sort of Defence Force would you like NZ to have?

              • The Chairman

                What sort of Defence Force would you like NZ to have?

                One that better reflects our ability to fund it.

                With all the problems we currently face in this small country, 20 billion is far too much to be spending on the military at this point in time.

                • Treetop

                  I am not sure how much of the 20 billion that the government already has.

                  I want a Defence Force which is equipped to be deployed were there a major earthquake in Wellington. A frigate which can become operational at the port, aircraft which can land in Wellington (runway may need to be patched) and personnel which can be deployed on the ground and work with the emergency services.

                  There is no relying on overseas emergency workers and being response ready which the Defence Force is trained to be is required.

                  • Sacha

                    No weapons needed then.

                    • Treetop

                      I knew that question would come up.

                      It depends on what the operation is. Aircraft need to have the capacity to carry weapons, this does not mean that they are carried when unwarranted.

                      And weapons do kill innocent people just like drunk drivers do and alcohol is still sold. Neither is right and both cause a lot of harm.

                      There would need to be a total ban on weapons and alcohol across the globe to save lives from weapon use and drinking alcohol.

                    • Sacha

                      Best answer I saw was from an ex-Hercules pilot who pointed out that if you took a supply flight into somewhere in a conflict/emergency situation without weapons, people who did have them could take your plane pretty fast. May have been drawing on experience somewhere in the Pacific..

                      Guess the same applies to boats, though NZ certainly under-armed our latest frigates to the point of uselessness in a real war zone.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  20 billion is far too much to be spending on the military at this point in time.

                  IIRC, that $20b was announced by National a while ago and was actually a budget cut over the 15 years they suggested.

                  Right now, we need to be spending $5 to $10 billion per year just to get our defence forces up to scratch. 30 years of budget cuts have done far too much damage to our defence forces.

                  • The Chairman

                    Yes, it was announced by National, hence they support it.

                    We could spend billions on our military, but as a nation, it all comes down to what we think is more a priority – ie education, health, poverty, etc.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      We could spend billions on our military, but as a nation, it all comes down to what we think is more a priority – ie education, health, poverty, etc.

                      Incorrect. As a nation we can do all of them if we use our resources correctly which the free-market is failing to do.

            • Draco T Bastard

              Housing the homeless and ensuring beneficiaries attain enough so they can afford to live is also not cheap.

              Upping defence spending could give many of those beneficiaries a job.

              Then if we did our own R&D and made our own aircraft would produce even more jobs and help build up a local industry where we could use the aluminium that we subsidise the production of.

              • The Chairman

                Defence spending is not exclusive in creating jobs. Upping Government spending in other sectors can also create jobs.

                This spend up is largely going offshore, thus it won't be creating too many jobs here in NZ.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Defence spending is not exclusive in creating jobs. Upping Government spending in other sectors can also create jobs.

                  True but defence is a necessary spend that needs to be adequate.

                  This spend up is largely going offshore, thus it won't be creating too many jobs here in NZ.

                  Which we actually need to change and make it so that all possible defence spending is onshore. Doing so will up the number of jobs created, help develop our economy and remove the vulnerability that comes from importing all our defence gear.

              • Sacha

                Local military plane manufacture? Dreaming.

                • Andre

                  Oh I dunno. Take a leaf out of Erik Prince's book and set to work on some of Pacific Aerospace's products in Hamilton …

                  Or not.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Its only 'dreaming' if we don't do it.

                  We have the capability and the capacity to do it so why not?

                  It'd be cheaper than paying private contractors from other nations to do it for us as military doesn't have the economies of scale to drop profit for each item down to a reasonable level. And importation of military equipment is weakness in our supply as the sea lanes could be cut.

                  So, government R&D becomes a lowish level ongoing cost with manufacture then contracted out to a local manufacturer to produce the aircraft. The development of better manufacturing processes would also be carried out by government R&D and available to NZ businesses – just like the US has been doing for well over a century (The Entrepreneurial State by Mariana Mazzucato).

                  And if you really think about it, the Hercules that we're still flying is a 1950s design.

                  • Sacha

                    We have the capability and the capacity to do it so why not?

                    For one, the whole thing is only the price of the club, as Key acknowledged.

                    Second, interoperability with other forces is a big part of that scam.

                    And finally, wouldn't we be withdrawing from the world economy anyway from what you've said before? Military cooperation would go down the toilet just like trade, so why waste any energy building war toys?

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      And finally, wouldn't we be withdrawing from the world economy anyway from what you've said before?

                      Minimising trade isn't the same as withdrawing from the world.

                    • Sacha

                      What would we pay for imports with if we no longer take part in the world finance scam?

          • Treetop

            I supported National on that issue (enough defence resources) providing it was not going to remove money from social spending.

            Shortage in housing was 20 years in the making in not investing enough. The tax breaks under Key could have helped fix housing providing the money was redirected.

            Investment is needed in defence and it appears that NZ First was the influence.

            • Chris T

              Yeah I think it was warranted.

              There are only so many layers of gaffer tape you can add to bodge fix planes before they start falling out of the sky.


              • Treetop

                There is so much wastage of money going into repairs of the aircraft.

                Mind you a lot of wastage of money having gone into leaky hospital buildings and poor earthquake design of buildings.

                Some other infrastructure has had a high blowout.

    • Scud formerly Exkiwiforces 2.4

      That may led to a doubling of the current Defence budget and the doubling of the current DCP? So I’m wondering if Jane is prepared for that, which mean raising taxes? As our distance from such trouble spots and our ever reliance of SLOC from imports & exports is far greater now than WW2 since NZ’s domestic manufacturing has almost gone the way of the Dodo. NZ’s MN has gone the same way as it’s domestic manufacturing and it’s railways system is on about a quarter of what it was during WW2 so it’s going to be interesting on how fuel rationing goes once NZ loses access or degraded access to oil refineries in Singers and or MEAO?

      This would also mean re-establishment of lost Defence capabilities such as the RNZAF’s Air Strike Wing, MCM Vessels, increase the Air Maritime Patrol Wing, the Frigate Force up to 6 Vessels, 2-3 Ice Capable Southern Ocean Patrol Ships and the tripling of the OPV size fleet armed with at least 76mm/ 3in gun the ability to fight Subs, Surface to Surface and short/ Close Range Air to Air. Also introducing new capabilities such as Unarmed & Armed UAV’s, Air to Air Tankers etc and that’s before we even to start to look at the Defence Estate around the Country including the Chatham Is. As Airport & ports would have to upgrade to allow a dispersal of Defence Assets when the brown stuff hits the fan

      While all this is happening the NZDF still has to carry out it day to day mandated tasks as outlined by the NZG which it struggles to do even in today’s NZ political climate as result of 30+ yrs of cuts to capability, Manning, base closures and reduction in equipment since 91when Ruth the Bitch from the “No Mates Party” cut the MoD/ NZDF by 26% in 90’s. While at the same time saw the 5 major UN Peacekeeping including INTERFET/ Timor-Leste which was biggest Deployment of the NZDF since WW2 and it also included an over the beach landing since WW2 which turn into a bit of a Fuck Fight btw and lucky for the NZDF it wasn’t an opposed landing as it could made Gallipoli look like an Sunday picnic beside the seaside

      To make this all happen all of our Political Party’s, including the NZ Greens will have to compromise on their Policies with Trade, Foreign Affairs, Defence and Aid Development. A lot of dead rats have to be swallowed if this does happen or else NZ would have to chose between China or its other major Asian Trading Parters within the Indo/ Asian Pacific Region if and when Conflict breaks out within the Region.

      Armed Neutrality is the only option if NZ wants to keep out of the pending Conflict in Asia as most Asian countries see the word “Neutrality” as a form of weakness unless you are armed to the hilt and are prepared to Defend, Deny, Delay, “Attack” to Defend, Ambush, any potential aggressor who is dumb or stupid a enough to have a crack at NZ. It also requires ever Man, Woman, Child to do their bit be it active or passive (CD, Red Cross etc) Defence of NZ’s Neutrality and willing to die for it?

      • Treetop 2.4.1

        The country cannot afford the cost of armed neutrality. The NZ Defence Force is always playing catch up when it comes to having a partial functioning defence force. If the defence force is operational ready were a major disaster to occur in NZ, then it would have served it's purpose in saving lives.

        Staying out of other people's wars other than for giving humanitarian support to civilians probably reduces the duration of the conflict.

        NZ is not likely to be attacked unless they become involved in a major incident. Our open shoreline is not going to be able to be protected.

        • Scud

          NZ could afford “Armed Neutrality” but that would required total commitment NZG and the population, but that won’t happen as all the political parties and their various mouth pieces having to swallow a number of dead rats IRT to Defence, Trade, Foreign Affairs Aid Development etc. Also the fact that we have one political party screams tax cut, runs every Government Dept into ground, builds roads and other mob trying to rebuild everything back up due to mismanagement of the other mob, means “Armed Neutrality is a mere pip dream.

          Unfortunately NZ will get sucked into the next major conflict in the Indo- Asian- Pacific Region weather it wants to or try’s to avoid it. My assumptions are theses,

          1. We are a Trading Nation which means we rely on Freedom of Navigation of the Seas, because it allow us to export our goods overseas and import stuff that we use to make here NZ before the NeoCon Lib’s with their economic theory vandalised NZ’s domestic economy. Just have a look at the Fuck Fight that Covid19 has to both Australia’s and NZ’s import reliance on goods that used to be made within those respective countries before the NeoCon Lib’s vandalised the domestic economies.

          2. Where are Australia’s Left Flank and the key to the Sth Pacific, which allows it to maintain its supply and military support from the US. Just asmuch as Australia is our right flank as it guarantees our supply line to SEA via the Singapore hub and our supplies of petroleum oil and lubricants (POL) via the Middle East & Singaporean oil refineries. If NZ loses some of its Asian exports, Australia is still one of our major export economy and Vice versa.

          So if China wants to take on Australia its got to surround Australia by cutting its supply & support line to its left and right flanks and force those convoy’s into Lat 40& 50deg’s which would make the Russian Convoys look like Cook Strait crossing look quite Pleasant on a rough crossing. This was the long term strategic goal of the Japs in WW2, but they came short with the Battle of the Coral Sea only by a bees dick.

          3. We are regarded as the gateway to the Antarctic and the Antarctic Treaty is up for renewal in 2044, if the Antarctic Treaty collapses then we’ll see the last great land grab since western colonisation.

          4. NZ has been attack before in the last two World Wars via the indirect route of attacking NZ’s Shipping on the Surface from Surface Raiders and below the surface by the laying of sea mines off NZ Ports and Coastal Sea Lanes. Also NZ in WW2 had two over flights by the Japs from their I Boats ( Submarines) looking for the invasion fleet for Solly’s which they just miss by a number of days and we had also DKM U Boats conduct a couple sorties in NZ waters. Then we have the Frogs in 87 with the Rainbow Warrior as well.

          • Treetop

            Several strategically placed long range non radioactive missiles and it is all over for NZ.

            • Scud

              I was thinking more of the line of 5 Direct Action Teams, Cyber Attack on the NZSX, over spin the turbines at Sth Is Power Stations, a couple of mad professors run about with a couple of virals of foot & mouth, PSA Mbiovs etc and a doz + Submarines with orders if it’s floats sink it and lay a few mines near Major Shipping ports.

              Probable all up man power inside NZ’s land borders between 100& 120 pers within a population of 5m. Using prearranged dead drops, single use code pads, snail mail, other single use codes listening watch etc.

              • Treetop

                I usually do not contribute to a thread on the military.

                Not sure why, other than the thought of being placed on a list for expressing my thoughts.

                • Scud

                  I hope haven't put you off from discussing this tropic? As I feel that this needs to be discuss at weather NZ adopts "Armed Neutrality" or the other option is which side it picks when jaw jaw stops and becomes war war. Having that discussion then is not a good option, if NZ wants to a adopt "Armed Neutrality" it has to start now.

                  As it well take time to re-orient the MFAT, Defence, Foreign Aid, NZ's economy including a Carbon Neutral Economy, build up the NZDF in particularly the Airforce and Navy, and finally infrastructure both public and private.

          • RedLogix

            Solid comment Scud. I only wish these issues got more airtime here than all the 'ism wrangling.

            All of those points are make a lot of sense, but the one I suspect will bite us in the arse much sooner than we expect is what happens when the Middle East, and the Persian Gulf in particular blows up … as it inevitably will when the US finally goes home altogether.

            A couple of missed supertankers and Aus/NZ suddenly look very sick indeed.

            • Scud

              The real issue Red is not so much the ME but the economic effect if and when conflict breaks out in Asia. Even just a simple reduction of 25% of POL supplies to the following counties Taiwan, Sth Korea & Japan would cause economic distress to both Oz & NZ before we even consider the economic fallout with China.

              My gut feeling is that we are likely first to see conflict in the Indo -Asian -Pacific Region before the Jews, Arabs (Yanks) and the Persians settle a few old scores.

              But the flip side to this as you pointed out that, the ME might go first which is likely to dilute the US Naval strength in the Asian- Pacific Region which could just give Chinese parity in the SCS and Taiwan. The question has to be asked, what would the Nth Koreans and Putin's Pacific Military Forces intent? Any offensive action by them would farther dilute the US PACCOM Forces. Which could cause issues in the low half of the Asian- Pacific Region, this would include NZ an the Sth Pacific?

              So the next question would be who's side is NZ going to pick or does NZ starts serious looking at Armed Neutrality which means the discussion has to start now and not when Conflict starts.

              New Zealand atm reminds of Norway just prior to WW2 where the Norwegian Government (which was a Labour btw) was at odds and reality with its Military not only with its lack of preparedness if and when Hitler makes his move on the West, but also the Military was getting very concern of the activities of both Germany & GB IRT its Neutrality.

              If New Zealand want to avoid another oil shock as result of conflict, it has to adopt a Carbon Neutral Economy and rebuild its domestic manufacturing capacity which also in the Government input from the likes of the DSIR & MoW both as we know went the way of the Dodo in the 90's.

              • RedLogix

                Pretty much agree with all of that. Two minor things to add in:

                But the flip side to this as you pointed out that, the ME might go first which is likely to dilute the US Naval strength in the Asian- Pacific Region which could just give Chinese parity in the SCS and Taiwan.

                It's my belief the US wouldn't commit much resource at all; they're pretty much energy independent now, and highly decoupled from ME oil. And regardless of who wins in November, neither President is likely to put American lives in harm's way to stabilise oil supplies for Europe or Asia. They just don’t care enough anymore.

                So the next question would be who's side is NZ going to pick or does NZ starts serious looking at Armed Neutrality.

                I can see the appeal of 'Armed Neutrality" but honestly when it came down to it, unless we had nuclear weapons and capable delivery systems, we could never mount an adequate deterrence. While the Pacific gives us a nice defensive space, it also makes it very hard for us to strike back with conventional weapons once the enemy’s navy was blockading our harbours … and that is the only basis on which this strategy might work.

                In my view we have two realistic security options; the traditional ANZUS alliance that depending on events in the US may or may not be open to us, or a wholly new configuration of SE Asian nations, consisting of Japan/Korea/Philippines/Indonesia/Malaysia/India/Australia in a new alliance. It's not as unlikely as it seems, after all the Japanese arguably have the second most capable blue-water navy after the US, and if the politics were managed competently the whole alliance would be formidable indeed.

                • Scud

                  Sorry for my late reply to this,

                  First of all thanks for jointing my memory IRT the US Shale Oil industry, as forgot that the US is almost totally free from the ME Oil dependency these days.

                  I've roughly crack the numbers on Nuke wpns vs Submarine both D/E and nuclear power vs more bang for your buck. I believe that a Submarine fleet would be practical and cheaper to run long term than if NZ wanted to adopt some form of Nuclear Wpn capability.

                  The main issue would be what type of Submarine would suit NZ's needs if NZ adopted "Armed Neutrally". Having a Nuclear Powered Attack Sub a has number of benefits on the plus side, but there are number of minuses. Apart from setting a Submarine Fleet would be huge as we have no corporate background in the use of Sub's, also of note that NZ DWP from 1982 or 83 did discuss and crunch the numbers of NZ obtaining Subs. The issue with a Nuke Sub we would still beholding tries to that country we purchase the a fleet of 6-9 Subs for technical support especially for refuelling the reactor and other deep level maintenance that would be require to do at the same time.

                  A D/E Sub on the other hand well have less risk, it would a lot easily to setup our maintenance in house, the other is being able to tap into the STEM and other technical trades. The other big factors is we won't be beholding to tires any country a part from very minor technical support during refits and the other more options in terms of variety of manufactures of D/E from Sweden with the their "Son of Collins Class", the German UBoats which to some are the Bee's Knees and the Jap S Boats which has combine the best of German and Swedish know how to produce a very capable boat, then we have the French, Russia D/E Subs and of cause the Brits with their U Boats, but like the Yanks haven't built D/E in donkeys years.

                  A Submarine Force with a Combine Surface and Air Force would give the NZG a number of options in Defence of its "Armed Neutrally". For example NZ would able to conduct Defence in Depth which cause all sort of problems anyone who is stupid a enough to close in on NZ, as they would a long way from support and it would leave them very open for the NZ Submarine Force to attack its Fleet train. Which would less ships up front as more would be need to defence its Fleet train and its support base along the way. Which was something that the Japs forgot to do in WW2, but the Germans did against the Brits and almost pulled it off. If it wasn't for some management issues within the German Sub Fleet command, the SKL (Naval Command) and finally Hitler's melding within the OKW.

                  There is a lot to think about NZ's direction on weather it adopts "Armed Neutrally" or it attempts to shore up it traditional Alliance aka ANZUS or the FPDA or looks at something similar to what you have mention (I prefer the last two options if NZ decides not to adopt Armed Neutrally") and, or its sides with China which doesn't have any of NZ traditional values.

                  Above all it would require cross party support and us punters need know the options for & against. Once NZ decided what the option they want and doing nothing is not an option btw, as it would require 100% commitment from everybody from the top end of town to the bottom end of town and in between.

                  • RedLogix

                    Excellent. I really appreciate your input around a potential submarine fleet to provide a 'defense in depth' capability. Although they aren't cheap or easy, as the Aussies are finding that out with their French subs. I wonder if NZ shouldn't piggy back on that program, just from a support perspective alone.

                    Incidentally one of the guys I work with most days is ex-Collin Class submariner. They really are a breed apart, and as you say NZ has no corporate experience in this arena; it would be a hell of a commitment to go down this path.

                    But you are right, whether we went down the 'armed neutrality' or 'SE Asia Alliance' path, submarines would be by far the most useful capability we could have. And given the sheer size of the Pacific, Tasman and Southern Oceans we would have to operate in, maybe there is a case for nuclear, however extreme that might feel at the moment.

                    • Pat

                      am pretty sure nz cant afford 20 billion per (over rated and under performing) submarine…not to mention the additional maintenance and training costs

    • Draco T Bastard 2.5

      Namely the 20 billion to be spent over the next 11 years, which could be much better spent enhancing lives

      Yes, because making ourselves even more vulnerable in a world gone haywire is such a Good Idea.


      BTW, think of how many thousands of people employed by the defence forces that would be out of a job and thus increasing poverty if we didn't spend that money.

  3. Dennis Frank 3

    Partisans vs democracy. Joshua Ferrer examines their track record of success:

    I have spent the past year at the University of Otago studying every reform to New Zealand’s democratic rules of the game since 1970. I have also interviewed over two-dozen politicians, election officials and academic experts on New Zealand election law.

    My research has revealed partisan election reforms to be common practice. Politicians have enacted 66 election reforms over the past 50 years. Of these, 19 were passed with only government support. Twenty-nine election reforms involved significant amounts of contention, while only 12 substantive changes to the rules of the game were free of partisan intrigue.

    Election reforms can affect voter turnout and alter electoral outcomes. Partisan manipulation of election laws has been shown to erode public faith in the democratic process, faith that is required for the system to have legitimacy in the first place.

    All too often, Labour governments have been the propagators of highly partisan election reforms. Over half of Labour’s election reforms have been partisan, compared with only 11% of National’s. Labour governments have passed 15 election reforms with high levels of partisanship, compared with only five reforms passed by National. The current government has now passed more electoral reforms with government-only support than with broader support.

    National governments are not completely free of blame. They are responsible for passing 13 election changes that engendered moderate or significant partisan disagreement. More worrisome are the five laws National has passed that have increased barriers to the ballot box or otherwise diminished electoral participation (Labour has passed two).


    Joshua concludes by advocating use of "citizens’ assemblies on election reform" to provide "a valuable new form of direct democracy". Seems a worthwhile initiative. To make it happen, we need a citizens' advocacy group with organising skills. However it does create an opportunity for any political party with a tradition of calling itself progressive. They could validate their claim by leading the implementation process!

    • RedBaronCV 3.1

      Without reading the whole article – is this actually looking through the correct lens?

      Should the criteria for measuring the reforms be "is this going to expand the democratic franchise and enable more participation with an electoral outcome that reflects those votes"- not which party did it?

      The party is a secondary consideration – so is this research with a major flaw or bias?
      To call them partisan reforms not partisan outcomes is very poor framing.

      • Dennis Frank 3.1.1

        To call them partisan reforms not partisan outcomes is very poor framing.

        I see where you're coming from, but I suspect he is simply recycling the framing used at the time: touting an act of parliament as a reform is trad pr for both major parties.

        I agree that such acts which don't improve democratic participation look more like outcomes than reforms, since reforms are usually interpreted as progress. Technically, a didact could point out that the term originally meant just a change of form though. So no, I see no good reason to assume he's compromised by perceptual flaw or bias.

        • greywarshark

          We need more participation, from informed people. This old business of thinking we are in charge because we voted some bods in, and that they know what they are doing because they convinced us to vote them in, a bit circular what! And they rely on a supposedly effective, efficient and knowledgable group that are either lifetimers in administration (old idea) or interchangeable between private and government (new idea) or university trained in the latest methods of efficiency in any sort of management (neo lib idea).

          And all this going on over the heads of unthinking and uncaring (till it hits them on the head like seagull's droppings) citizens stolidly going on their dim-witted way stamping out bushfires preferably before ideas actually start smouldering.

          That's democracy at present folks. Getting that changed would be a herculean task to do it right. Of course it could be done a la Roger et Al, who just upended the table and the board game or jigsaw or whatever was being played fell to the floor and never got put together again. If we lived in Holland the dykes would never have been put together sweetly and strongly, we would all be boat people being turned away as undesirable.

  4. Gabby 4

    Probably due to the natsys fighting tooth and nail to resist any reform that enhanced democracy in praxis eh.

  5. Dennis Frank 5

    Richard Harman assesses the PM's conference speech:

    “Poverty, inequality, persistent unemployment. It does not have to be this way, and under Labour, it won’t. We are the Party that puts people first. It is in our DNA.”

    That got thunderous and prolonged applause. If it was designed to provoke the “Ruth Richardson” inside National, it didn’t quite hit the mark. The response from Leader, Todd Muller, was hesitant. “Nothing Labour promises you this election will be delivered – except more tax for you to pay,” he said. But National is vulnerable with its “no new taxes” promise; Labour can legitimately ask how, with debt repayments and the social welfare bill likely to increase, what Government services National might cut if it won’t raise any more taxation.

    https://www.politik.co.nz/2020/07/06/labours-red-glow/ | Politik

    • ScottGN 5.1

      He also claimed that Labour is going it alone this election, that it wants to govern on its own. Another centre right pundit trying to put the last nails in the Green’s coffin.

  6. Sabine 6

    So is the Government finally going to do something for people that can't pay their commercial leases because their business is dead?

    Cause this is what you can 'have' – nothing, zilch, nada, fuck all as per the CAB


    Or does that fall under Deborah Russels protfolio of 'how can they – small businesses – not survive in a pandemic with no income i have no idea……i am an academic, a beige suit on the government tit, so how the fuck would i know anything about free enterprise and working for ones wages."

    Cause as of today, the Government has done fuck all to help people who are stuck owing tens of thousands of dollars to landlords who will NOT negotiate unless they are forced to by Government. Or does that fall in the too fucking hard basket?

    And for those that get upset at a little critic thrown at the current government and their leader, suck it up.

    This failure to reign in property holders/speculators/landbankers/leeches on society has been a spectacular bipartisan failure of the National Party and the Labour Party. So dear Labour Party and parties of the coalition, go do something. You can not just let people go all the way to bankruptcy just because you don't want to finally tackle the abuse of Landlords that literally everyone, residential or commercial tenants is suffering from.

    And for those that want to simply not give a shit about the people of NZ that have businesses please remember that these are the guys generating tax revenue, paying wages, GST, and Rates. Also they are New Zealanders just in case people forgot.

    Also remember that the wage subsidy only pays for one thing, Rent at home plus food, or a commercial rent. It does not take care of both.

    • Graeme 6.1

      There's some mongrels out there


      The owner of a travel agency facing shop closure due to Covid-19, claims she has to pay more than $50,000 if she wants to be released from her lease – with no money back if a new tenant is found.

      Part of the small subset of commercial landlords who see a distressed tenant as an opportunity to create a debt, and obtain a judgement to take the tenants assets. One of the risks you take when you go into business

      • McFlock 6.1.1

        not naming any names, but apparently a local retail landlord wanted to sell their business so got an earthquake structural report pre-covid. They then refused to let any of their commercial tenants off paying rent during lockdown.

        Post covid, two of their major tenants aren't renewing their lease, and one is refusing to reopen because of the earthquake report highlighting "health and safety" risks (which suggests to me they're arguing the landlord is failing to provide suitable retail space, so they won't be paying rent until the lease runs out).

        Nice to see the occasional bastard get their comeuppance.

      • Treetop 6.1.2

        Is there some way that a form of pandemic bankruptcy can be declared without losing your home and car?

        • Graeme

          Easiest way is to not own anything, why people who own businesses have trusts. Companies don't protect you that much now because everything requires personal guarantees now, especially leases.

          • McFlock

            yeah, I was a bit surprised at that requirement for a personal guarantee when a group I was involved with was leasing a space. Seems a bit bloody weird to me.

            I think Treetop's idea would be reasonable, for some tight criteria. It would be DamienGrant-dodgy to pay the rent with the covid loan and then wind the company up at the end of the lease.

            • Graeme

              It will probably require a purpose built entity to take the leases off the distressed tenants and deal with the contractual issues with the lease.

              This is where Little's bluff fell over, it sort of dealt with the lockdown period, but trying to deal with distressed leases using the ADLS 27.5 and 27.6 clauses was really going cause problems.

              Getting a fair deal for the likes of the Travel Agent, but not allowing the wide boys to demand a lease renegotiation will be tricky. Everything will be subjective and nothing meaningfully objective.

              From where I'm sitting a Crown agency that takes over leases of genuinely distressed tenants and then manages the reletting could be the way to deal with it. It will probably only do a couple of hundred leases where relationships have broken down completely already and they have got themselves into a corner they can't get out of, and then the message will get through and both sides of the letting relationship will settle down.

              Generally Queenstown isn't to bad in this regard. There's a couple of wanker landlords, but also a couple of really good ones which has kept things under control. But I know of a couple of situations that have become disfunctional. But the market's still fluid, someone moves out, then there's someone moving in straight away.

              There's also a review of the ADLS lease underway, it gets reviewed every 10 years with updates between. Our beagle is saying this aspect of the lease is in for a major overhaul.

    • Sacha 6.2

      Sabine, your anger is better directed at Winston. He's the prick who has proudly thwarted govt help on commercial leases/rent.

    • The Chairman 6.3

      Speaking of commercial leases, this is how Harvey Norman dealt with their landlords.

      The Australian-owned company sent the letter to a number of landlords around New Zealand on March 25 telling them that it would not pay rent while its stores were closed.

      The letter, provided to Stuff, tells landlords that they had 24 hours to respond otherwise Harvey Norman would consider the matter settled.


  7. Dennis Frank 7

    Into cultural analysis? Check this out: https://unherd.com/2020/07/the-emptiness-of-the-intellectual-dark-web/

    Underlying much of this, Brooks argues, is an acceptance of prevailing inequalities — economic, gender, and racial — as natural. The IDW’s leading lights uncritically defend capitalism while drawing on biology and the dreary science of ‘IQ’ to bolster the status quo. They aim to “naturalize or mythologize historically contingent power relations”, as Brooks puts it.

    Behind every one of Peterson’s self-help homilies is an unbending fealty to the status quo. Hierarchies are hard-wired because lobsters follow them. Gender differences are real because women gravitate towards people and men towards things. Envy and resentment at the success of others will rot your soul.

    Naturalism is littered with conceptual pitfalls, true. But Greens did derive their belief system from nature, and it remains valid, so the lesson to learn is `do it right'.

    Meritocracy, as the French sociologist Pierre Bourdieu once put it, is an imaginary world in which “every prize can be attained, instantaneously, by everyone, so that at each moment anyone can become anything”.

    Crap. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy

    Meritocracy is a political system in which economic goods and/or political power are vested in individual people on the basis of talent, effort, and achievement, rather than wealth or social class.

    • Just Is 7.1

      Dennis, when I lived in Australia the Govt there argued "Meritocracy" was the reason there was only 1 woman on the front bench in Parliament.

      The Liberal Party of Australia, many punters I met said they no longer vote for them as they no longer represent Liberal values, they're actually Right Wing Christian Conservatives.

      • Dennis Frank 7.1.1

        Yeah men have traditionally struggled to get their heads around the notion that women have complementary skills that are just as valid in politics & governance. I see emotional intelligence, for instance, as a competitive advantage in group psychodynamics. Conservative culture prevents such learning so sexism persists. And I agree that the Oz liberal tag is a misnomer. Justin Trudeau puts them to shame! I read a biography of him from the library a while back. He's authentic.

        • Morrissey

          Justin Trudeau puts them to shame! I read a biography of him from the library a while back. He's authentic.


          Funny, but to anyone with eyes he looks like a racist and a moral coward.


          • Just Is

            But he was comparing him to the current Liberal Govt in Australia, and by that comparison, Trudeau ptobably is more Liberal.

          • Dennis Frank

            Liberals in the classic sense seem a different kind of animal. They are as likely to adopt a conservative stance as a progressive stance, for instance. Often centrist.

            Not sure why you would want to interpret his call for an evidence-based approach to the issue of war crime responsibility as moral cowardice. Temporary short-circuit in the brain??

            As regards wearing a black face, I've never done it – but depends what year he did it eh? Weren't they still broadcasting re-runs of the Black & White Minstrel Show here in the '80s?

            • Draco T Bastard

              Weren't they still broadcasting re-runs of the Black & White Minstrel Show here in the '80s?

              I recall them from the 1970s but not the 80s.

            • Morrissey

              What is shown in the Twitter feed I linked to is that Trudeau swiftly abandoned his call for an evidence-based approach, and supported the Trump regime's highly contentious and unproven allegations. He also, infamously, supported the Trump/Pompeo propaganda line against the elected government of Venezuela.

              His black-face shenanigans would not, in themselves, count for very much if taken in isolation. However, considering everything else he has done, they point to someone who is anything but "authentic."

              • Dennis Frank

                No way would I view Assad favourably so I share your feeling there. But we don't know what intelligence-sharing happened to change his mind, do we? Re Venezuela, that's a typical binary with a path thro the middle for those who prefer a balanced view. I see the idiocies of both sides clearly.

                Being stuck in bias is bad for one's mental health often. If you have an open mind, read Justin's autobiography. The only reason I did so was due to the negative views of him expressed by you & one or two others in the past. That got me intrigued and sceptical of his character. I was impressed somewhat against my will as a result. In my local library – probably in yours…

        • Dennis Frank

          Correction: I read his autobiography, not a biography. You get a better sense of where a person is coming from (in terms of values, motivations,ideals) when you read them telling their own story. For instance, he spent many years determined not to be a politician. What he did during those years is instructive.

  8. I find it interesting that TV3 has not provided their poll yet. Is Toll Mudler's attack method not moving the numbers in the desired direction?

    Perhaps we have seen it all before?

    • ScottGN 8.1

      Maybe they’re too skint to conduct one?

    • Just Is 8.2

      Maybe the numbers are so bad that they're doing what Simon Bridges did with his polling numbers, not tell anyone

  9. Adrian Thornton 9

    More unsubstantiated news, often referred to as fake news, being disseminated by international MSM and mindlessly parroted by our own beloved RNZ….

    In ‘Russian Bounty’ Story, Evidence-Free Claims From Nameless Spies Became Fact Overnight


    • francesca 9.1

      Yep , dogs running after phantom sticks again, just when theres talk of withdrawing all the troops

      How people still unquestionably believe all the BS emanating from anonymous officials is beyond me .I suspect it's wishful thinking and confirmation bias at work

      • Adrian Thornton 9.1.1

        "I suspect it's wishful thinking and confirmation bias at work" Yeah true that..unfortunately.

    • Andre 9.2

      A clue for the clueless: what makes the russian bounties thing a story is the Great White Shart's reaction to the possibility of russia paying bounties on dead US soldiers, or to be more precise, his utter lack of interest. Much more than whether or not the allegations are accurate.

    • Morrissey 9.3

      RNZ National is full of people who have uncritically gulped down this nonsense, hook, line, and sinker. The problem is that they then use their platform to regurgitate the propaganda. Chief among the Russiagate true believers are Dame Kim Hill, Bernard Hickey, and Jim Mora, the long-time host of the light chat show The Panel.

      Back in November 2015, regular Panel guest Ella Henry treated Nat. Radio listeners to the fruits of her extensive knowledge and wide reading on the subject of Russian leader Vladimir Putin:

      "Hur hur! I just see an ex-KGB agent, y’know what I’m sayin’?"


      In October 2016 poor, bewildered Jesse Mulligan—Mora's replacement as Panel host— tried his hardest to seriously address the m-m-m-m-menace from Moscow….

      JESSE MULLIGAN: [speaking very slowly, to convey thoughtfulness] Sometimes when I read this stuff I get the sense that Russia are L-L-L-LOOKIN’ for trouble, are L-L-L-LOOKIN’ to create tension with the U.S. Is that fair?

      ….Long pause….

      PROFESSOR AL GILLESPIE: [slowly, deliberately, to convey deep thinking] Ahhhhhmmm, partly, partly not. I mean, Russia’s there by a treaty it had with Syria from the early 1970s, a legitimate treaty for a defensive alliance, and Assad is still to a degree in power, so Russia’s doing what it was bound to do by treaty. The problem is, that at some point, as long as you’re propping up these sides the war will continue and you may have to, everyone just back out and see what the actual outcome is.

      ….Long pause…

      JESSE MULLIGAN: Meanwhile, there’s this OTHER story around today, that Russia have walked away from the protocol on weapons-grade plutonium control. Can you give us a bit of background to that, Al?


      et cetera, ad absurdum, ad nauseam…

    • gsays 9.4

      While I think my star sign is Cynical, the MSM has become a slither of it's former selves. Helped, no doubt, by the decades of market reforms, the race to the bottom is picking up speed.

      Before clickbait was a thing… I had a pub in a small country town. We had a big Friday night and 3 brothers came in, I knew 2 of them were under age so I asked them to leave. On their way out, they came across the kitchen hand, assumed he had narked on them and proceeded to give him a hiding.

      The Monday issue of the local paper has a story headlined "Teens Fight in Local Bar". They go on to quote the local Senior Sergeant who knew nothing about it, about 'youngsters these days….'

      Took a few calls to the editor to get a retraction printed, buried deep in the paper. I stopped advertising with them and got creative with other marketing ideas.

      The Guardian, oft cited as the font of all wisdom, has sullied or confirmed (depending on your view of it) it's reputation with it's treatment of Jeremy Corbyn.

  10. joe90 10


    The opposition said they have a moral obligation to win. No. Winning an election is not a moral obligation.

    We are morally obligated to look after New Zealanders, our most vulnerable, our families and our children; to represent our diverse nation, to have people from all walks of life of every colour race and creed sit at the decision-making table.

    To do what is best for New Zealand, to govern in the best interests of New Zealanders; to be honest, to be fair.


  11. KJT 11

    Graeme's comment at 5.1.

    I understand that addressing commercial leaseholders difficulties has been on the table.

    Held up by some snags.

    Including NZ first and the banks, but also how do you help out genuinely distressed leases without allowing some big arsehole ones to wriggle out of their obligations.

    • RedBaronCV 11.1

      Good to hear. You don't want the unscrupulous renters voiding leases they can well afford to pay while needing to offer some solution to prevent the unscrupulous landlords bankrupting smaller business owners who have a no or a much reduced business meaning they bear the whole financial outcome of the "covid disruption lottery " and recognising that no rent would also bankrupt some smaller landlords.

    • Sacha 11.2

      Snags 'including' NZ First?

      All about them wagging the dog.

  12. RedBaronCV 12

    Today's bunch of useless under performing employers who can't plan for more than 5 minutes into the future and now want the government to bail them out.


    You've had six months to get yourselves organised – why didn't you use it! Be proactive. Why have you rolled some visa's for years instead of training. Bear in mind that it appears only about 10,000 have been here for 5+ years.

    Why do these visa holders who have been here so little time apparently have skills that can't be taught in the short term to locals. Many of these visa's would not have been renewed anyway- tourist, student and under 30 work permits so you would have needed to replace them anyway.

    I'd like to give a special mention to the Hospo association. Not only is this an industry that will shrink but:

    why have you not designed a few basic courses,

    found or used a current provider for those courses,

    invited employers when they are interviewing to recommend individuals to undertake those courses because they will hire them at the end

    Then if you asked for a small government subsidy I'm sure it would have been granted or employers could pay for it. Then you could also promote some existing workers. It's not rocket science.

    Lastly why does the news media just accept the employer whinging without any further inquiry or hard facts. A lot of those dairy jobs are short term to cover the start of the season.

    • Adrian 12.1

      And the hospo industry is claiming to be a 40 billion dollar industry, talk about "don't you know who I am-ism ". What a load of bullshit, that would make a city of 50,000 have a hospo industry of 400 million. I have had a gutsful of this inflating of value every time some entity is trying to extract something from the government.

    • Ian 12.2

      Absolute crap regarding dairy farmers. The truth is we have received no wage subsidies,Jacinda is sending key workers back to poverty and disease and There is no way NZ unemployed will fill the gap.The treatment of our workers by a so called Kind government is disgusting.

      • RedBaronCV 12.2.1

        Er I think these statements may prove my point. But hey why didn't the dairy industry not try to make itself more resilient? The rewards have been high enough – maybe profit sharing like say 'sharemilkers'?

  13. Just Is 13

    The Merriam Webster's definition of "SHAMBOLIC"

    "Obviously disorganised or confused"

    First used in 1970, evidently.

    Nationals new go to word.

    In reality it eloquently describes John Keys reign of destruction.

  14. Adrian 14

    What is it about having to do "courses " to do anything from carrying a cup of coffee from a kitchen to a table or wash a floor or clean a bench. If a person can't do any of most things required to hold down a simple job then they must have been on 24 hour life support since birth. You don't need training just get on and fucking do it.

    • RedBaronCV 14.1

      I don't really think they need courses for a lot of this stuff either. Maybe an hour or two to make sure the bed making is up to standard. But the onus should be pushed back onto these industry groups to come up with concrete plans for how to manage (beyond "we need work visas") so then the government pen can be put through 2 week bed making courses.

      The hospo industry should also have been asked for how many of these employees needed are at or close to the minimum wage. Which suggests jobs that don't need huge skills.

      and FWIW 56000 extra people have registered for the unemployment plus those who don't need to but could work. Trademe and seek – who will overlap- show around 13000 to 14000 listings for the last 4 weeks

      News media seem to accept this employer whinging uncritically without any challenge or filter.

      • Sacha 14.1.1

        Companies have done a great job over recent decades shifting responsibility for staff training onto everybody else to pay for.

        We really need to get NZ out of the low-wage economy trap where employers fear to set their prices high enough to cover such costs unless they are only serving the luxury market. And more profits need to come back to workers, not owners.

        • RedBaronCV

          Yep and step one would be for the media to expand their horizons and stop printing employer whinging without question or pushback, They seem to have lost that skill and stuff being now locally owned needs to find it in spades.

    • gsays 14.2

      After a life in kitchens, I learnt a good tip during my 'Chemicals training': Spray your cleaning cloth with the fluid (sanitiser/window cleaner), not the surface. You use less and get a better finish.

    • Draco T Bastard 14.3

      Private business can charge to train people which will either be paid for by the person or by government and is thus a profitable business.

      Actually training people takes time and money which the business doesn't want to spend.

      Put these two together and we have the perfect profit making excuse to bring people in from offshore and thus lower wages here.

    • mac1 14.4

      On the other hand, and no doubt with support from the Labour government, I am having post earthquake remediation finally, using a firm who employs three female apprentices. Today, on learning that one apprentice was receiving her first visit from her industry supervisor/ trainer/ inspector person, I congratulated him on his willingness to train apprentices. Lots of 'doing', but with supervision and advice ongoing.

      • Adrian 14.4.1

        Great news. Are they dragging it up from the river and nailing to the bank at last?

        Couldn't help myself.

    • anker 14.5

      Adrian agree 100%. Worked in hospo in my 20's . No training, just figuring it out.

      Also thinking about all those unemployed flight attendants. Surely their skills generalize? Good customer service, serving people coffee etc. It's just bollock that we have to have migrants to fill these jobs.

  15. ScottGN 15

    NSW is to close the border with Victoria midnight tomorrow. First time it’s been closed in a hundred years. 53 cases – 16 new today – at the Melbourne public housing towers. 127 new cases in Victoria overall today.


    • Muttonbird 15.1

      But Australia are doing better than us!

      • ScottGN 15.1.1

        Certainly played into the PM’s hands and shut the Tasman bubble-pushers right up.

    • Sacha 15.2

      Would that be the places put into 'hard lockdown'? https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/122045148/nine-melbourne-tower-blocks-put-into-hard-lockdown–what-does-it-mean-and-will-it-work

      When can we get that here? Muller knows plenty of tradies could be employed to be hard!

    • Fireblade 15.3

      Today Victoria also reported 645 active cases, 31 in hospital, 5 in ICU and 1 new death.


      • Fireblade 15.3.1


    • Treetop 15.4

      No doubt the military will be required to police the check points.

      I need to look up and see what support the Aboriginal communities are getting.

      • greywarshark 15.4.1

        This Melbourne case should be kept in mind when public housing is built here again. Do not use this type of tower block housing, it is bad for human mental and physical health to be WAREHOUSED. Under one picture of someone looking out from a window: &#039
        The units have no balconies and windows that only open a small amount.'. No wonder some complain there is no fresh air, and also they say there is no sunlight. When you see how closely the huge blocks stand together, it is plain that there would never be sunlight in some of them. There isn't any room for it to angle into any of the rooms.


        This is an unpleasant note from officialdom's view of the public housing lockdown, that they are places where viruses may be "incubating":

        "This is not just a matter of 23- to 30-odd people, this is a matter of many hundreds who have already been exposed and who may already be incubating," Deputy Chief Health Officer Annaliese van Diemen said on Saturday.

        Some of them may be nearly starving soon.

        …It was only when Tekeste Hailu tried to leave his building that he realised he was one of 3,000 people in mandatory lockdown.
        Mr Hailu, 27, lives with his grandmother in public housing on Racecourse Rd, one of nine Melbourne buildings that was placed into sudden "hard lockdown" on Saturday afternoon.
        But the first Mr Hailu was told was when he tried to leave to buy groceries, only to be greeted by "the whole building surrounded by police".

        …Hulya Selin, who lives with her young son in a two-bedroom apartment on the 12th floor of a tower on Racecourse Road, said losing her freedom removed was "scary"….
        Ms Selin said by 10:000am Sunday, 18 hours after the lockdown began, no-one had come to the door to provide her with any information or food.
        She first heard about the lockdown from a post on Facebook.
        "I went downstairs just to check if this was all true and there were so many police officers there at that point," she said.
        "I actually spoke to one of the officers and he said the only information they had was that no-one is allowed out."
        She said she was told by an officer later that having food delivered was OK, but when the delivery worker arrived, they were not allowed near the building…

        Other comment: There have also been concerns raised about the lack of information in languages other than English.
        By late on Saturday night, Mr Hailu said he was yet to see any professional health workers, social workers or interpreters to support the hundreds of residents in his building….

        Residents from three separate towers said it was common for lifts in the high-rise buildings to be out of order on a regular basis, meaning there was one way up and down the buildings [the stairs] for hundreds of residents.
        Jenny said she took the stairs because she was "fit and young", but that was impossible for many others.

        Is this high-rise nightmare what Auckland will try to come up with, having mismanaged its residential requirements for so long, and letting developers play housie with what are commodities to them, but expensive essential services to the peeps?


        …The most visible legacy of the Commission is the 47 or so high-rise apartment towers in inner Melbourne, all built using the same pre-cast concrete panel technology. ..
        Approximately 27 of these precast concrete 20 to 30 storey height buildings were constructed around Melbourne, until the type of development fell into disrepute. By 1970 nearly 4000 privately owned dwellings had been compulsory acquired and replaced by nearly 7000 high rise flats..

  16. aj 16

    Since there is so much fevered speculation that 'China done it' …


    Either way, let's hope science keep the debate honest, rather than conspiracy theory.

    • Just Is 16.1


      I think it will be sometime before we have sufficient evidence to categorically rule, in or out, China's involvement in this global pandemic, there certainly is plenty of speculation, but I'll wait for tangible evidence before I make up my mind

  17. xanthe 17

    quote from RNZ

    "Nationally, Spain's outbreak has been essentially brought under control."

    now they only just a teensy bit pregnant

  18. ianmac 18

    As an aside I am intrigued by the use of "apace." Dr Bloomfield used it in his reports a number of times. "Development in that process is happening apace." Now I have heard "apace" being used in news reports several times recently. How cute is that?

    The Government is developing post Covid policies apace.

    • ScottGN 18.1

      Haha. Would that be a-payce or ahparchay?

    • Adrian 18.2

      Is it an old English abbreviation of "at pace ". You were a school teacher Ian, give us a lesson. Cheers.

      • ianmac 18.2.1

        I am very retiring Adrian. At pace. O'clock. (Of the clock) Must be others around. But I like the idea that a great Public Servant can insert an old word word into the consciousness and usage of others.

      • mac1 18.2.2

        Funnily, I used the word to describe the remediation work, mentioned in 14.4., in an email today as "continuing apace".

        It is the opposite in meaning to 'soon' which is, in the great Irish joke, similar in meaning to 'manãnã' but 'without the same sense of urgency'!

        • ianmac

          Thought it meant quickly:


          1. swiftly; quickly.

            "work continues apace"

            Similar: quickly fast swiftly rapidly speedily

          That's what I thought it meantsmiley

          • Adrian

            I always thought it meant "in a measured way " ie not fast and not slow.

            Language history is fascinating, I wish I had paid more attention in school instead of just doodling and eating my lunch.

          • mac1

            You're right, of course, ianmac. I just wanted to get a joke in. 'Never let the truth stand in the way of a good joke', as they say. You, of course, might respond that you're still waiting…….

    • Sacha 18.3

      apace in Thorndon circles means at a recklessly normal speed for everyone else. 🙂

  19. Dennis Frank 19

    Biden's way of choosing his running mate: https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/30/biden-vice-president-346149

    The selection committee, advisers say, hasn’t finished assembling a final shortlist of candidates for consideration by Biden, who has made it clear he’ll take his time and make his selection by Aug. 1 based on his personal relationship with the candidate and how “simpatico” they are.

    The foundation’s research also shows that women are generally viewed as having more empathy and being multi-taskers who are perceived as having a “virtue advantage” over men because they’re more trustworthy…

    in 2018, a record number of women were elected to Congress, and many won by emphasizing their personal life experience instead of just political experience.

    • Treetop 19.1

      I gave the running mate a thought the other day. Needs to be energetic, able to be presidential and in the early fifties or late forties of African American heritage.

      Physically I doubt Trump would last another term and Pence is not visible or able to have a different point of view than Trump.

      • Dennis Frank 19.1.1

        I mentioned the other day the likelihood of Biden dying in office. Feasibility of that scenario would be driving the advice from long-time Democrat stalwarts. So the non-white woman he selects has to be tough enough to survive & prosper in the top job. And already seen as such by those who matter (in the liberal US establishment).

        I assume Biden is open to advice from Hilary Clinton on that. Her life-long progression from ultra-conservative to democrat proves her capacity to transcend established political categories in a life-transforming way. Her selection of a short list of candidates for Biden would be extremely useful. Probably the first time I've ever written something favourable about that woman! 🙃

        • Treetop

          I am neutral on the gender for Vice President. What is important is the manifesto to address inequality and injustice.

        • Morrissey

          I assume Biden is open to advice from Hilary Clinton frown on that. Her life-long progression from ultra-conservative to democrat surpriseproves her capacity to transcend established political categories in a life-transforming way. sad

          She backed Biden's horrific Crime Bill in 1994, and denounced black teenagers as "predators." She and her husband started the racist allegation, taken up with a vengeance by Donald Trump, that Barack Obama was not born in the United States. After the horrific death of Colonel Gaddafi—U.S./U.K.-supported Islamist fanatics sodomized him with swords—she laughed her head off about it: "He came, he saw, he DID!"

          Where's the "life-transforming" part about her?

          • Dennis Frank

            Where's the "life-transforming" part about her?

            Going from Goldwater Girl to Democrat Senator. Obviously! I suspect you're just playing dumb, of course, but sometimes people do need to have the obvious pointed out to them. You're welcome. 😉

  20. Muttonbird 20

    Queensland's finest, Pauline Hanson: ‘Drug addict’ refugees to blame for lockdown.


    • Just Is 20.1

      Yea, it's an impediment, the same one Trump has.

      Neither have any idea what the definition of Diplomacy is.

      Both get the same reactions to their statements, you either love them or hate them, not much inbetween.

  21. Sacha 21

    Article surveying some current NZ stances on tax (includes the usual silliness) https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/122025044/tax-is-back-how-do-you-fix-a-49-billion-hole

    • Gabby 22.1

      'Close to' 10 in 18 months (ie not even 10)? Jeez Comrade Colonel, let someone else get a word in.

  22. joe90 23

    Deliberate, pervasive cruelty.

    But her emails.


    Once sung by descendants of the 7th Cavalry, Irish air "Garrymore" will no longer cause pain for Native Americans.

    “Garryowen,” an Irish drinking song with a marching cadence, is to Native Americans what “Deutschland Uber Alles” is to Jews, a hated reminder of the evil past.

    “Garryowen” was the marching song of the 7th Cavalry and the infamous Lt Colonel George Custer when they massacred native American villages in the all-out campaign in the 1870s to rid the plains and the west of “redskins.” The tune was played quite deliberately right before attacks.



  23. joe90 24

    Tory filth.

  24. Chris 25


    How does this sort of nonsensical trash get past the editors at Stuff?

    "The Greens elect their list on an internal party ballot, which means party members prefer Swarbrick over a minister with tangible results under her belt. And if party members think this way, their voters must be even more ambivalent about real policy wins."

    This idiot's whole theory is based on one totally illogical assumption, which is that the way the party determines its list means that Green voters don't care value policy wins. There's a lot of truth in the view that sees only three kinds of right winger, which are eitther stupid, nasty or both.

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