Open mike 06/08/2022

107 comments on “Open mike 06/08/2022 ”

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1. PsyclingLeft.Always 1

   6 August 2022 at 6:43 am

   Panguru locals are being asked to avoid stray dogs after a man was believed to have been mauled to death by a pack of them yesterday.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/472270/dogs-still-on-the-loose-after-man-believed-to-have-been-mauled-to-death-in-northland

   Twenty-five neo mastiff crosses and bulldog crosses have been rounded up at a Northland property where a man was killed in a suspected mauling.
   Exactly how many dogs were at the property to begin with was unclear, or whether they belong to the man who was killed, as they weren’t registered, he said.

   https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/suspected-mauling-25-dogs-taken-property

   Far North man says feral dogs killing sheep could harm children

   https://www.1news.co.nz/2021/07/29/far-north-man-says-feral-dogs-killing-sheep-could-harm-children/

   25 neo mastffs and bull dog crosses !. On one property. Yea, how the fuck was THAT not a problem?

   And other feral dogs previously stalking Humans.
   Yep , past time for a major cull. And Dog Control !!
   • Puckish Rogue 1.1

     6 August 2022 at 7:23 am

     Damn near breaks my heart to hear about good dogs (all dogs are good dogs) ending up like this because of feral men (most likely)

     Currently typing this from bed which my two boys (staffi cross and doberman mastiff cross) have graciously allowed me to share
     • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 1.1.1

       6 August 2022 at 8:39 am

       Not often I agree with Pucky, but he's right in this instance.

       As Sherlock Holmes said: "You never find a bad dog in a good family!"

       But, as usual, the dogs will pay the price for human abuse!
       • Macro 1.1.1.1

         6 August 2022 at 11:10 am

         
     • Anne 1.1.2

       6 August 2022 at 10:31 am

       With you PR.

       I recall the uproar over Staffi dogs around 10 -15 years ago. The Staffordshire terrier is a fantastic little dog. Full of personality and affection. Easy to train and highly social. Its not the dogs, its their human owners who are the problem. A property with 25 large dogs roaming free and untrained… a recipe for disaster.
   • Sabine 1.2

     6 August 2022 at 8:20 am

     This looks like a breeder/horder situation that got out of hands. I am quite sorry for the bloke, but even sorrier for the dogs. They neither asked to be on that property nor did they ask for neglect and abuse.
     • weka 1.2.1

       6 August 2022 at 8:59 am

       Housesitter with a number of dogs, one of the dogs had a lot of puppies. The man who was killed didn’t own the dogs, they belonged to someone who was staying with him.

       https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/08/05/family-of-man-killed-say-he-was-attacked-by-friends-dogs/
       • Sabine 1.2.1.1

         6 August 2022 at 9:25 am

         I did not see that story yet.

         Sad for everyone involved.

         But this is then not a story of 'feral' dogs attacking a human and killing a human.
         • weka 1.2.1.1.1

           6 August 2022 at 10:30 am

           agreed. The man dying from the dog attack and the feral dogs are two separate incidents (not related as far as I can tell).
           • Rosemary McDonald 1.2.1.1.1.1

             6 August 2022 at 11:15 am

             Probably not related. The feral dogs…an awful situation up here… and I was speaking with someone not long ago who was attacked and bitten whilst walking part of the Te Paki Coastal Track. She went out and purchased a .22, and will never tramp without it in future. Truly feral…cunning as shit house rats… and virtually impossible to trap and as hard to shoot. Poison has been suggested….and the rather bizarre and cruel idea to plant meat impregnated tampons with the view that the dogs will eat them and they'll expand in the throat and stomach. (This guy was serious.) The dogs will travel along Te Oneroa a Tohe and visit 'civilisation' via the access roads. One such road is very near to us and we watch our wee flock very carefully. Have had a couple of scares. Luckily our fencer, a local, put barbed wire atop the sheep netting to deter predators, four legged and two.

             The tragedy out west was also too close to home for a mate of ours who is from there and until the details were released, things were a bit tense. Sounds like the guy was trying to get the owner of the dogs to move on…for obvious reasons. For the life of me I don't understand how anyone could afford to feed such massive dogs. You'd need a fairly good income.
             • weka …

               6 August 2022 at 11:49 am

               I couldn't imagine being able to feed that many dogs either, although it's hard to tell how many were adult dogs. Maybe he was selling them and this paid for the food? But even the logistics of that much food on someone else's property when you're not set up for it. I guess if he was hunting that would help.

               Horrendous for that family and community. The dog owner's life now irreversibly changed too. MSM don't seem to be saying anything about him, but I guess more details will follow.
       • Robert Guyton 1.2.1.2

         6 August 2022 at 9:31 am

         "one of the dogs had a lot of puppies"

         "Bitches", surely. One of the bitches 🙂

         How many, is it known?
         • bwaghorn 1.2.1.2.1

           6 August 2022 at 9:48 am

           Birthing bodies is the correct term nowadays
         • weka 1.2.1.2.2

           6 August 2022 at 10:31 am

           I'm a cat person 😺
         • left for dead 1.2.1.2.3

           6 August 2022 at 11:17 am

           Robert,they tried that nonsense up here, DCC ;with female 'dogs' instead of,well you know bitches.

           That was from,newly appointed Lawyers within said Org.
           • bwaghorn 1.2.1.2.3.1

             6 August 2022 at 12:42 pm

             One of the dog sale sites for farm dogs kept getting banned on Facebook due to the word bitch being used , algorithms ain't so bright.
             • left for dead …

               6 August 2022 at 3:36 pm

               
   • mary_a 1.3

     6 August 2022 at 1:34 pm

     "And animal control!" … in my experience of having had dogs in the past, animal control seems to keep their eyes on good responsible dog people, than those irresponsible people who allow their poor unregistered dogs to roam free, some unfortunately being seriously injured or killed on a road.

     One example: In public an Animal Control Officer yelling, shouting and threatening an elderly retired couple and their dog who every morning very early, rain or shine, all seasons, would walk the local beach, cleaning up rubbish and taking it home to dispose of. The reason for the animal control officer's outburst … the dog was on the beach 20 minutes after the 9am curfew had passed, which as far as I know was a one off as far as the elderly couple were concerned! The elderly man tried to talk rationally to the animal control officer, who wouldn't listen and warned them to get their dog off the beach or they "will be impounded and them finded" I witnessed this event first and tried to explain to the ACO about the couple's regular early morning beach cleaning activities. I was told to mind my own business and move on! I reported the incident to the council. Their response? The animal control officer was doing his job!

     A pity the ACOs don't do their job concerning feral animal owners!
     • Puckish Rogue 1.3.1

       6 August 2022 at 6:20 pm

       Easier to pick on the elderly with the friendly, trained dog instead of the aggressive ferals with the untrained dogs…
   • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.4

     7 August 2022 at 6:59 am

     So far there have been at least four sightings of packs of the dogs, with DoC closing the campsite and tracks to protect visitors to the region from the threat of being attacked.

     "This is the first time that we've heard of aggressive behaviour to people," says Abraham Witana, acting operations manager of DoC Kaitai.

     He said it now looks like the situation might be getting worse, with the latest sighting by a local driver last weekend.

     "They saw a pack of six dogs and a small litter of puppies."

     Baigent told The Project the dogs already slaughter our most treasured native birds.

     "Once they get a taste for kiwi, dogs will go through and will take a lot of them. They'll systematically work their way through.

     "They don't eat kiwi, they just love the thrill of the chase."

     https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/rural/2021/04/farmers-northland-locals-remained-concerned-as-feral-dog-sightings-continue.html

     Today on The Detail, RNZ Northland reporter Nita Blake-Persen talks to Sharon Brettkelly about the war on feral dogs in the Far North.

     "It boggles my mind that this is still able to happen in a country where we're striving for Predator Free Aotearoa, to have packs of feral dogs which are not only a threat obviously to wildlife but also to stock and potentially humans," she says.

     Blake-Persen tells how campers and trampers at Cape Reinga earlier in the year spotted the packs of wild dogs loitering around.

     "They were pretty freaked out. You don't expect to see wild dogs in New Zealand".

     https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-detail/300412673/the-detail-feral-dogs-keep-far-north-farmers-campers-up-at-night
2. Muttonbird 2

   6 August 2022 at 7:34 am

   Brutal thumbnail from the media arm of the National Party.

   

   The end of the runway is approaching for the airline pilot…
   • bwaghorn 2.1

     6 August 2022 at 9:49 am

     More like a few sweaty passengers grabbing the stick yelling , PULL UP PUUL UP
   • LibertyBelle 2.2

     6 August 2022 at 4:45 pm

     "…from the media arm of the National Party."

     Don't you mean the team of $55m?

     Anyway, the Bish hits back Fired-up Chris Bishop slams 'useless, incompetent' Labour, says National fully backs Christopher Luxon | Newshub.

     Go the Bish :>
3. Jenny how to get there 3

   6 August 2022 at 8:38 am

   This week the East Asia Summit held this year in Cambodia, was attended by representatives of America, Russia and China – US Secretary of State Antony Blinken, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and China Foreign Minister Wang Yi.

   Reporting on the East Asia Summit, RT the Russian official media outlet of the Russian Federation, quoted Sergei Lavrov on the world situation.

   S.L.“Our American colleagues demonstrate permissiveness” for themselves in international affairs “every time they try to assert their dominance”

   S.L.“The Americans have taken up a course of suppressing any independence,”

   S.L.“understand the futility of a policy according to which you can just turn a blind eye to one situation, one crisis created by the US, and expect that everything will be more or less OK there,” S.L.

   S.L.“They decided to turn Ukraine into a menace for Russia and for many years ignored the racist policies of the Kiev regime, which has been destroying everything Russian… they violated the principles of indivisible security, which they signed up for at the highest level and which they simply trampled upon,”

   S.L.“Similarly, in the case of [US House speaker] Nancy Pelosi’s visit to Taiwan, they [the Americans] ignored their own principles, which they proclaimed publicly,”

   Echoing Lavrov's comments on Taiwan, Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi following comments were quoted by RT

   W.Y, “a serious violation of the One China policy”

   W.Y. “vulgar comedy,”

   W.Y. “serious consequences”

   W.Y. “a serious violation of the One China policy”

   Referring to China's military exercises in reaction to Pelosi's visit.

   Antony Blinken was quoted by R.T.

   A.B. "There is no possible justification”

   A.B. “cease these actions.”

   https://www.rt.com/news/560313-lavrov-taiwan-us-blinken/

   Hitler did not invade Poland out of concern for the persecution of Poland's German speaking minority.

   Putin did not invade Ukraine out of concern for the persecution of Ukraine's Russian speaking minority.

   World War One was not fought because an Arch Duke was assassinated in Kosovo.

   World War Three will not be fought because an old lady visited Taiwan.

   The underlying cause of global conflict and world war is the same as the underlying cause of pollution and climate change. Infinite economic growth on a finite planet, is running up against the physical and man made borders of the planet.
   • Blazer 3.1

     6 August 2022 at 9:51 am

     So you suggest as economic growth is the driver of conflicts.Russia's military operation is a very rational undertaking, no different to the actions of many other nations.
     • Macro 3.1.1

       6 August 2022 at 11:14 am

       Russia's military operation is a very rational undertaking,

       🙄
     • Jenny how to get there 3.1.2

       6 August 2022 at 4:49 pm

       Human beings are rational creatures, every thing we do has a reason, or rationale.

       The rationale for climate change is economic growth. If we don't pollute. Our economic and political rivals will, and outcompete us.

       The rationale for war is economic growth, if our economic growth is limited and constrained by their uni-polar domination of the globe, we will try to replace it with our multi-lateral domination of the globe. If necessary, with force.

       You ask, is it rational?

       Is poverty in the midst of immense wealth rational?

       Maybe, maybe not. It depends on who you are asking.

       Is increasing our carbon emissions year on year rational?

       Is filling up our oceans with plastic rational?

       Maybe, maybe not. But it is profitable.

       Instead of asking if doing these things is rational. A better question might be; Is it right"

       Is it right to engage in mass slaughter to achieve a multi-polar world?
       • mikesh 3.1.2.1

         6 August 2022 at 7:00 pm

         Is it right to engage in mass slaughter to achieve a multi-polar world?

         We have a multi-polar world at present. Long may it last.
       • Blazer 3.1.2.2

         7 August 2022 at 8:16 am

         When we assess what is right' or wrong ,we should dispense with …double standards.

         'According to The New York Times, over a five-year period US forces carried out more than 50,000 strikes in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria.'

         US drone strikes killed thousands of civilians: report | News | DW | 19.12.2021
         • Joe90 3.1.2.2.1

           7 August 2022 at 8:50 am

           Now do newly obtained Kremlin documents reporting tens of thousands of civilian deaths in Afghanistan, Chechnya, Georgia and Syria.

           //
         • Jenny how to get there 3.1.2.2.2

           7 August 2022 at 4:47 pm

           'According to The New York Times, over a five-year period US forces carried out more than 50,000 strikes in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria.' Blazer

           Blazer I don't need to assess if that is wrong. It is wrong.

           But what are you saying Blazer, when Russia does the same thing?

           Are you saying, because the US does it, it makes it OK for Russia to do it?

           Be honest now
           • Blazer 3.1.2.2.2.1

             9 August 2022 at 9:28 am

             No,I was referring to…'double standards'.
   • mikesh 3.2

     6 August 2022 at 4:03 pm

     The underlying cause of global conflict and world war is the same as the underlying cause of pollution and climate change. Infinite economic growth on a finite planet, is running up against the physical and man made borders of the planet.

     Whilst the impossibility of infinite growth is undeniable, I don't think that this is the cause of world wars. Michael Hudson, for example, alludes to a conflict between opposing economic philosophies – not capitalism versus communism, but between rentier capitalism and productive capitalism. Hudson says:

     "The New Cold War is dividing the world into two contrasting economic systems

     NATO’s proxy war in Ukraine against Russia is the catalyst fracturing the world into two opposing spheres with incompatible economic philosophies. China, the country growing most rapidly, treats money and credit as a public utility allocated by government instead of letting the monopoly privilege of credit creation be privatized by banks, leading to them displacing government as economic and social planner. That monetary independence, relying on its own domestic money creation instead of borrowing U.S. electronic dollars, and denominating foreign trade and investment in its own currency instead of in dollars, is seen as an existential threat to America’s control of the global economy.

     U.S. neoliberal doctrine calls for history to end by “freeing” the wealthy classes from a government strong enough to prevent the polarization of wealth, and ultimate decline and fall. Imposing trade and financial sanctions against Russia, Iran, Venezuela and other countries that resist U.S. diplomacy, and ultimately military confrontation, is how America intends to “spread democracy” by NATO from Ukraine to the China Seas.

     The West, in its U.S. neoliberal iteration, seems to be repeating the pattern of Rome’s decline and fall. Concentrating wealth in the hands of the One Percent has always been the trajectory of Western civilization. It is a result of classical antiquity having taken a wrong track when Greece and Rome allowed the inexorable growth of debt, leading to the expropriation of much of the citizenry and reducing it to bondage to a land-owning creditor oligarchy. That is the dynamic built into the DNA of what is called the West and its “security of contracts” without any government oversight in the public interest. By stripping away prosperity at home, this dynamic requires a constant reaching out to extract an economic affluence (literally a “flowing in”) at the expense of colonies or debtor countries."

     https://braveneweurope.com/michael-hudson-the-end-of-western-civilization
     • Blazer 3.2.1

       6 August 2022 at 5:52 pm

       Hudson's summation is brilliant and needs a wider audience.
4. Blazer 4

   6 August 2022 at 9:13 am

   Nationals fiscal formula…

   'Lend me your ear…New Zealand…I will increase spending on health,education and infrastructure,whilst giving tax cuts and reducing expenditure'.

   Its 'Luxonomics'……stupid.
   • Sabine 4.1

     6 August 2022 at 9:34 am

     thing is if he were honest he could

     tax cuts

     – make the first 25.000 earned tax free – that would be a great tax cut for low earners whilst it will be a little nothing for the very rich. I base this on the min cost of a rental in NZ.

     – he could drop GST, give some high praises to his predecessors in N and simply state that the times are tough, and offer a lower GST or no GST on such things as electricity bills, water bills, doctor bills, school fund bills, food / school uniforms, public transport and fwiw, raise some revenue by increasing GST on say make up, booze, overseas travel, luxury cars, boats, planes – large and small etc etc etc

     .

     reducing expenditure

     I am sure we can find money that is spend but has no results to show for and spending could be cut. Perks for Ministers could be cut. Housing allowances for Ministers could be cut. Wages for ministers could be cut. Less Propaganda Peddlers for NZTransport etc etc.

     Investing

     continue to invest in Health Care, Education, Infrastructure etc.

     Fwiw, L could do this too, as could any other Party. That none of them actually do is the interesting part.
     • MindPilot 4.1.1

       6 August 2022 at 9:45 am

       Add a windfall tax, a capital gains tax and a financial transaction tax and it’s good to go
       • Sabine 4.1.1.1

         6 August 2022 at 9:57 am

         yep.
       • Bearded Git 4.1.1.2

         6 August 2022 at 10:15 am

         …and/or a Wealth Tax….by far the best way to redistribute wealth fairly and supported by the Green Party (and incidentally supported by thinking people like Parker in the current Labour government)
         • Drowsy M. Kram 4.1.1.2.1

           6 August 2022 at 10:29 am

           Wealth Tax – no downside at all unless you're wealthy, in which case you can probably afford and/or dodge it easily enough.
           • Graeme 4.1.1.2.1.1

             6 August 2022 at 11:31 am

             or dodge it easily enough.

             Which is where any proposal for a wealth tax comes unstuck. The truly wealthy will be able to structure their affairs to dodge it, lawyers and their ilk will have a field day, but the accidentally wealthy will end up having to sell their homes.
             • Drowsy M. Kram …

               6 August 2022 at 11:42 am

               Is it possible to wean the truly wealthy off their addiction to tax dodging?

               https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/128814781/signs-suggest-the-rich-are-trying-to-dodge-new-tax–heres-whats-being-done-about-it
           • pat 4.1.1.2.1.2

             6 August 2022 at 11:44 am

             It can only be dodged easily enough if it is designed so….unfortunately those designing often have vested interests.
             • Drowsy M. Kram …

               6 August 2022 at 12:00 pm

               Ah yes – the 'vested interests' problem. A 20% quota of parliamentary representatives drawn from the ranks of the truly ‘poor' might be a temporary fix, at least until they had received their first few pay cheques.
               • pat …

                 6 August 2022 at 12:07 pm

                 Or the Irish model (of deliberative democracy) looks to have some potential…randomly selected citizens assemblies to assess expert advice
                 • Poission …

                   6 August 2022 at 12:17 pm

                   Democracy is founded on random selection called sortition in ancient Greece.

                   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition

                   to ensure random selection,the Kleroterion was used.

                   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleroterion
                   • pat …

                     6 August 2022 at 12:34 pm

                     Actually Sortition as a form of governance looks promising….though there would be I imagine quite a number who decline, much like jury selection….but it is certainly more likely to be truely representative.

                     And bonus, the end of Party politics!
                 • Drowsy M. Kram …

                   6 August 2022 at 12:18 pm

                   Thanks for that info. Worth a go in NZ – like empanelling a (big) jury.

                   Citizens' Assemblies for Referendums and Constitutional Reforms: Is There an “Irish Model” for Deliberative Democracy? [January 2021]

                   “Co-construction” in deliberative democracy: lessons from the French Citizens’ Convention for Climate [June 2022]
                 • Poission …

                   6 August 2022 at 1:12 pm

                   It would be a better selection for local government,where local issues should dominate,rather then train fully paid professional politicians.
                   • pat …

                     6 August 2022 at 1:17 pm

                     Local government could be a trialling point but if it proved workable it could be applied at a national level….of the options I see available it is the one that appeals to me most (even though it may have some potential issues)…of course it is a pipe dream as it is not likely to occur short of absolute disaster, and probably not even then.
           • Bearded Git 4.1.1.2.1.3

             6 August 2022 at 3:08 pm

             I think a WT can be written which is hard to get around, but I agree that with this government, which has been pathetic in relation to trusts which have been set up in there 1000's to avoid the 39% tax rate and for other reasons/avoidance (to claim Working for Families for instance), there is little hope of a rigorous WT regime eventuating.

             Such a regime might well happen though if you Party Vote Green.
             • Drowsy M. Kram …

               6 August 2022 at 3:26 pm

               I'll be party voting Green, their Wealth Tax advocacy being but one reason.
               • Bearded Git …

                 6 August 2022 at 5:57 pm

                 Good man…(and it should have been "their 1000's" above of course.)
         • Jester 4.1.1.2.2

           6 August 2022 at 4:50 pm

           Don't you mean an envy tax?
           • Bearded Git 4.1.1.2.2.1

             6 August 2022 at 5:58 pm

             That would assume I need any more money which I don't.
     • ianmac 4.1.2

       6 August 2022 at 10:15 am

       Well said Sabine. What you have written above is largely something I can unusually agree with.
     • Barfly 4.1.3

       6 August 2022 at 1:39 pm

       "reducing expenditure

       I am sure we can find money that is spend but has no results to show for and spending could be cut. Perks for Ministers could be cut. Housing allowances for Ministers could be cut. Wages for ministers could be cut. Less Propaganda Peddlers for NZTransport etc etc."

       Great soundbites but the $ saved wouldn't even be a rounding error on a tiny part of government expenditure.
       • Sabine 4.1.3.1

         6 August 2022 at 1:49 pm

         Oh there are more soundbites to list, but its like with everything, if you save enough of the pennies it soon becomes money.

         Or as an old saying goes, enough chickenshit piled up high makes a nice mountain of manure. – somewhat loosely translated.
     • Brigitte 4.1.4

       6 August 2022 at 1:40 pm

       The perceived problem with tax cuts is that "rich pricks" get it too. You could eliminate this by having the tax free allowance followed by a higher (than now) tax rate.

       So, using your 25k, a tax rate of 33% from then would mean someone on 70k would now pay 15k tax (compared to 14k now). So that would give a meaningful tax cut for low earners whilst not costing too much (by giving it to everyone). You could make the tax at 70k the same if the tax free level was set a a slightly higher 27,500 (and no-one under 70k would pay more tax). It still means less tax received by the govt, but probably a better way to target lower paid than other methods currently used (the current IRD payments, for example).

       For the expenditure, fiddling with MPs allowances would make little difference. Taking 250k off them (so basically no salary) would save 30m a year, which would mean just 20 cents a week if passed on to 3m taxpayers.

       Cutting wasteful expenses is worthwhile though, as the savings can be used in better ways – more nurses, teachers etc or just paying the existing ones better. But not tax cuts.
       • Sabine 4.1.4.1

         6 August 2022 at 1:51 pm

         Yeah, but if you passed that 30 mil onto the tax payer via Mike King then you get a whole lot of mental healthcare counseling paid for which would be a much better return to the tax payer, but maybe that would demand creative thinking and that is not something i would expect a government doodaa to do. Think and creatively at that.
         Of course you could send everyone 37 cents in a transaction that a bank might charge you a dollar + for. And i could totally see the doodaas on either side of the aisle talk about that just the way you do. LOL – Go figure.
         • Descendant Of Smith 4.1.4.1.1

           6 August 2022 at 4:14 pm

           You could also ensure that PAYE is paid directly to IRD on payday when the wages are paid to employees.

           This would help stop employers stealing their workers money and identify earlier businesses in trouble. You could also stop large corporates having policies such as paying bills in 3-6 months so their smaller suppliers get paid to help their cashflow.

           We lose hundreds of millions of dollars in tax every year to failed businesses.
           • Sabine 4.1.4.1.1.1

             6 August 2022 at 4:48 pm

             agree on that one.

             and we could make tax avoidance illegal with a few years of hard labour attached to it too. 🙂

             there would be many many ways to address spending without having to actually cut services. Just start limiting excesses and willful wastage for a starter.
5. Robert Guyton 5

   6 August 2022 at 1:07 pm

   This is long(ish) and might get frowned-upon, but it's interesting 🙂

   ''For just as established religions assume the maleness of God, just as psychoanalysis and Freud assumed the maleness of libido, so have the social sciences- and in particular anthropology- assumed the generic maleness of human evolution. Both popular and academic anthropological writers have presented us with scenarios of human evolution that feature, almost exclusively, the adventures and inventions of man the hunter, man the tool maker, man the territorial maker, and so forth.

   Woman is not comprehended as an evolutionary or evolutionizing creature. She is treated rather as an auxiliary to a male-dominated evolutionary process; she mothers him, she mates him, she cooks his dinner, she follows around after him picking up his loose rocks. He evolves. She follows. He revolutionizes. She adjusts. If the book jackets don’t give us pictures of female homo sapiens being dragged by their hair through 2 or 3 million years of he-man evolution, we are left to assume this was the situation.

   This, despite the known fact that among contemporary and historic hunting-and-gathering people, as among our remote hunting-and-gathering ancestors, 75 to 80 percent of the group's subsistence comes from the women's food gathering activities. This, despite the known fact that the oldest tools used by contemporary hunter gatherers, and the oldest most primal tools ever found in ancient sites, were women's digging sticks. This, despite worldwide legends that cite women as the first users and domesticators of fire.

   This, despite the known fact that women were the first potters, the first weavers, the first textile-dyers and hide-tanners, the first to gather and study medicinal plants- i.e., the first doctors- and on and on. Observing the linguistic interplay between mother and infants, mothers and children, and among work-groups of women, it is easy to speculate on the female contribution to the origin and elaboration of language. That the first time measurements ever made, the first formal calendars, were women's lunar markings on painted pebbles and carved sticks.

   And it is thoroughly known that the only "God image" ever painted on rock, carved in stone, or sculpted in clay, from the Upper Paleolithic to the Middle Neolithic- and that's roughly 30,000 years- was the image of a human female."

   -"The Great Cosmic Mother", Monica Sjoo and Barbara Mor
   • Incognito 5.1

     6 August 2022 at 1:48 pm

     source link?
     • arkie 5.1.1

       6 August 2022 at 3:07 pm

       Here's a pdf of the complete text
   • ianmac 5.2

     6 August 2022 at 3:06 pm

     Interesting Robert. A close relative of mine is tied to a Church which lives on the father being the head of the house. Hilarious watching the wife quietly running the show while appearing to be subservient. Decision making is a lesson in lop-sided negotiation. And he still believes that men are superior.
   • Ad 5.3

     6 August 2022 at 4:11 pm

     Hate to break it to you heathen but in real life Catholic churches are mostly run by women. Priests are harder to find and often locums. In the non-Catholic structured churches it's disproportionately female in Ministry.

     But yinno, carry on with the tired ignorant bullshit assumptions.

     Male imagery had asserted dominance in Gobekle Tepe and quickly across most of the Turkish Upper Chalcolithic. Some dense combination of tax, fenced property, and the dense hierarchies required for urban living did it. Followed quickly by bureaucracy, organised armies, and then written language.

     Spiritual nostalgia just ain't what it used to be.
     • weka 5.3.1

       6 August 2022 at 4:38 pm

       everyone knows that women run things at that level Ad. Sane cultures are honest about it.

       The quote in Robert's comment is about how male dominated societies such as ours tell the story of humanity, and how this erases women's culture. Victors write history. Patriarchy is only 5,000 years old though, so probably a blip we will recover from if we don't fry ourselves first.
       • Ad 5.3.1.1

         6 August 2022 at 6:57 pm

         Gobekle Tepe is one of a full region of tepe that are saying the same story, and it started at least as far back as 9,000 BC. You can't extract patriarchy, property rights and language.
         • weka 5.3.1.1.1

           6 August 2022 at 11:13 pm

           yep, patriarchy didn't arise overnight, it was a process over time and multiple cultures.

           Some say coming down from the trees in the first place was a mistake. But I think it's fair to say that once we started planting crops en masse, we need armies to protect the now settled farming cultures, and that meant controlling the means of human reproduction. It's still the basis of patriarchy now, only in civilised cultures we distance ourselves from this reality.
   • weka 5.4

     6 August 2022 at 4:41 pm

     Women invented time, when we shifted from estrus to a menstrual cycle the same length of time as the moon phase. We also invented post-fertility when we developed menopause, this allowing the great cultural leaps forward for humans because grandmothers helped raise children and look after the tribe.

     (of course, nature invented those things in women, but the point is poetically made).
     • Ad 5.4.1

       6 August 2022 at 7:00 pm

       Birds react to day and night, month and season, year and generation. They did it well before even mammals arose.

       So it's just wrong even poetically to claim the 'invention of time' for women.
       • weka 5.4.1.1

         6 August 2022 at 11:08 pm

         Once women started menstruating cyclically instead of via estrus, for women time would have taken on an obvious, in your face meaning. Embodied, not abstract.

         Of course there are natural cycles that affect many forms of life. I was pointing to one in particular.
         • Ad 5.4.1.1.1

           7 August 2022 at 8:02 am

           No, you were claiming a specific epistemic privilege for women over men because of menstruation.

           Time may well be gendered insofar as different cycles get registered, but that's it.
           • weka 5.4.1.1.1.1

             7 August 2022 at 4:02 pm

             let me put it another way. How females evolved biologically had a big impact on the evolution of human cultures and societies. Female fertility cycles are threaded all through human history and culture. It's just that men have been privileged by the patriarchal systems of recent millennia and thus understanding of those cycles and the roles they play has been distorted and/or rendered invisible. Just like in Sjoo and Mor's examples of technology.

             So it's not just 'that's it'. It's that how women contribute and live in the world as females matters, to women, and to human societies. Being female isn't incidental, it's core.
           • weka 5.4.1.1.1.2

             7 August 2022 at 4:04 pm

             No, you were claiming a specific epistemic privilege for women over men because of menstruation.

             But I didn't. All I did was talk about women. Didn't say anything about men, nor did I imply anything. It's your philosophical framework that read something about privilege over men (a common problem in the patriarchy). As if it's just not possible for women to be important in their own right.
     • Belladonna 5.4.2

       6 August 2022 at 9:38 pm

       However, there was clearly a reproductive advantage in older women assisting with raising grandchildren (and/or as a repository of wisdom), since those genetic traits persisted. If there were no 'fitness' advantage, then the trait would not be universally expressed (if a woman lives long enough, she's going to go through menopause)

       Grandmothers who were around and involved had more grandchildren…. How natural selection works.
       • weka 5.4.2.1

         6 August 2022 at 11:08 pm

         Not sure why you started with however, this is exactly what I was pointing to.
         • Belladonna 5.4.2.1.1

           7 August 2022 at 3:30 pm

           The quote "nature invented these things".

           Natural selections operates across a a suite of behaviours and variations which may be more or less adaptive. Nature doesn't invent.
           • weka 5.4.2.1.1.1

             7 August 2022 at 3:50 pm

             not everyone expresses ideas so literally Belladonna.
   • Stuart Munro 5.5

     6 August 2022 at 9:05 pm

     Interesting – but the first gods were not necessarily anthropoid.
6. Bearded Git 6

   6 August 2022 at 2:54 pm

   Remember last year when Australia had all those Covid cases and deaths in Victoria and NSW and it seemed out of control compared with NZ? Well Australia now has less deaths per million than NZ-it has had Covid under better control than NZ for months now.

   NZ 472/m

   Australia 470/m

   https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
   • Populuxe1 6.1

     6 August 2022 at 3:04 pm

     Actually for all intents and purposes we are currently at parity. 2/m isn't much of a difference. And Australia is at a very different point in their wave cycle – a lot more people died getting to where they are now compared to NZ.
     • Bearded Git 6.1.1

       6 August 2022 at 3:12 pm

       You are entirely missing my point which is that NZ was much much better in terms of deaths/million months ago, but the trend of Covid deaths has been much worse in NZ than OZ over the last few months and there is no sign of this changing.

       Take a look at the graphs in the website I referenced above.
       • Populuxe1 6.1.1.1

         6 August 2022 at 3:20 pm

         I'm not missing your point, you're reading the data wrong. First, cumulative – overall we've lost a lot fewer people compared to Australia per capita, which if you will insist on making it a competition, is the important number. Second, their per capita numbers right now are going to be moving down because they are coming out of an infection wave. We're just hitting our second or third wave.
         • Drowsy M. Kram 6.1.1.1.1

           6 August 2022 at 3:45 pm

           First, cumulative – overall we've lost a lot fewer people compared to Australia per capita…

           That’s been true until now, but no longer. NZ has been rapidly overhauling Aussie's (cumulative total) 'Deaths/1M pop' metric. Wasn't expecting the switch to happen until the end of August, but, as BG correctly noted, it's happening now.
           • Poission 6.1.1.1.1.1

             6 August 2022 at 3:53 pm

             Australia has an infection fatality rate of 1 per 785 cases,the NZ IFR is 1 in 1007.
             • Bearded Git …

               6 August 2022 at 5:52 pm

               That is the infection rate which is not what I am talking about.

               Case numbers are notoriously badly reported so the infection rate is highly unreliable. Death rates are more certain (in fact very certain) and so are far more reliable.
               • Poission …

                 6 August 2022 at 6:00 pm

                 Comes in around what was forecast by Baker in 2020,an order of magnitude over the influenza IFR and consistent with an excess death mortality.

                 https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-mortality-p-scores-average-baseline?country=NZL~AUS
       • Jester 6.1.1.2

         6 August 2022 at 5:05 pm

         It's like two bald men, fighting over a comb!
         • Bearded Git 6.1.1.2.1

           6 August 2022 at 5:55 pm

           It's a bit weird that you find the fact that Oz has handled Covid better than NZ unworthy of a sensible comment.
7. Joe90 7

   6 August 2022 at 4:56 pm

   There's something wrong with these people.

   What I need you to understand is that I stood here for about half an hour yesterday and this guy NEVER broke character

   He wept sitting on the bench

   He wept sitting on the floor

   He tallied days on a chalkboard set up for the purpise pic.twitter.com/dgGag1Qcjn

   — Laura Jedeed (@LauraJedeed) August 5, 2022
8. joe90 8

   6 August 2022 at 5:59 pm

   Up to 100,000 most of the half-starved North Korean soldiers could conscripts rumoured to be sent to bolster Vladimir Putin’s forces fighting Ukraine will head for the hills at the first opportunity they get according to Russian reports.

   ifi

   https://www.news.com.au/world/europe/100000-north-korean-soldiers-could-be-sent-to-bolster-putins-forces-fighting-ukraine/news-story/1126782c8c5e6fe08a8ad2d9fa38dff0
   • Puckish Rogue 8.1

     6 August 2022 at 6:22 pm

     Not if they only send troops with families back home…
     • joe90 8.1.1

       6 August 2022 at 6:38 pm

       100k-300k North Korean defectors would likely disagree.
       • Puckish Rogue 8.1.1.1

         6 August 2022 at 11:53 pm

         I don't know that I'd defect if I had family in NK especially knowing what might happen to them

         I guess there's always those who can
9. Robert Guyton 9

   6 August 2022 at 9:11 pm

   What???

   [deleted]
   • Incognito 9.1

     6 August 2022 at 9:19 pm

     Luxon is expendable and he’ll be replaced if/when necessary because it’s all about the team winning, not the ‘captain’.
10. Sabine 10

    6 August 2022 at 9:15 pm

    One can now self identigy as disabled and chronically ill? Can such a person be denied benefits if challenged on that self Id? And how do you quantify 'disabled' and 'chronically' ill. And then, why bother in the first place?

    The ADCI Literary Prize for a work by an author who self-identifies as disabled or chronically ill. It must be fiction and must contain one or more characters that are disabled and/or living with chronic illness. D/L 31 Oct. https://t.co/zCrDIFJfPJ

    — Society of Authors (@Soc_of_Authors) August 4, 2022
    • Muttonbird 10.1

      6 August 2022 at 11:03 pm

      You are equating self ID'ing as disabled and chronically ill with self ID'ing as a woman, all for culture war purposes.

      Have you thought this through?
      • weka 10.1.1

        6 August 2022 at 11:19 pm

        how about you explain your own thinking.

        There are people who do self ID as disabled who aren't disabled. I doubt this is what the Society of Authors means, but it's getting harder to tell. There's a still a taboo on self IDing into an ethnic group.
        • Sabine 10.1.1.1

          7 August 2022 at 9:09 am

          No, i think they made it to Self ID and then they threw everything and the bathwater out of the window.
          • weka 10.1.1.1.1

            7 August 2022 at 3:51 pm

            identifying as disabled predates Self ID though, so I think it's more complicated than that.
      • Sabine 10.1.2

        7 August 2022 at 9:02 am

        i don't.

        I posted this from twitter, it is them who are asking for 'self identified' disabled people. '

        I am asking for someone to translate into easy english for me how someone self id's as disabled.

        Maybe you need to explain your own thoughts to me.

        a. why do you conflate this self id with that of men who want access to places for women ( again, i am excluding Transwomen/Transmen who transitioned from self id, to make my point clear).

        b. why do you assume that i like you conflate this self ID with that of men who want access to places for women.

        Being disabled is not a case of being born in the wrong the body, it is not a mental illness, it is not some passing body dysphoria, being disabled is medical, permanent, and makes navigating live quite a bit different and harder for those that have to live with disabilities and chronic pain.

        So frankly, just for once, Do better.
        • Belladonna 10.1.2.1

          7 August 2022 at 3:35 pm

          I guess that this operates the other way, too, though. There are people (including, presumably, authors) who may have a 'disability' but do not self-identify as disabled.
        • weka 10.1.2.2

          7 August 2022 at 3:57 pm

          I am asking for someone to translate into easy english for me how someone self id's as disabled.

          As someone with an invisible disability, how I choose to relate to the world is often a choice. I can hide my disability. I can make it visible. In that there's something about identity. Not such a big thing for me but it matters because otherwise other people get to define me and my disability.

          It's not Self ID so much as 'identify as' someone who has a disability (as Belladonna points out, not everyone does). It stops other people from determining what disability or a person's disability means. This matters because there's such a lot of bullshit in society around disability, prejudice, ignorance and so on. Including in institutions.

          There are all sorts of problems with tying this to Self ID and I think them using the term self in the tweet is a bit mistake because it shifts it from identifying as, to being something akin to gender identity and then we have all the issues of disability fluidity and basically making shit up.

          Sorry, not sure that is easy English.
          • Sabine 10.1.2.2.1

            7 August 2022 at 5:31 pm

            I have no uterus, thus can't have children. I could now identify as 'chronically ill' and in need of medication – hrt, and disabled as i can not have children.

            I choose not to identify as such as i believe that 'disabled' and 'chronically ill' should be reserved for those that have medical issues that forced them to need different measures of support to manage society. I.e. wheel chair ramps, wider doors to shop entrances, disabled toilets, specific care, medical needs that outweigh mine and those similar to mine many many times. There is a difference between not being perfectly healthy and being chronically ill and disabled. (This comment does not relay in any way to you Weka and your health.)

            One does not identify as 'chronically ill' one is, one can not opt out of this state. I can self id as a fertile women any day i will nevertheless never birth a child as i do not have the biological capacity for it. Again, it is biology vs imagination. In this case it is more of a state of 'telling us that you are chronically ill' so that we can accept your story. Surely a little bit more of gate keeping should be given, considering the prestige of these awards.

            Mind in Mexico a court has argued in favor of 'self id' age. Maybe we are in clown world.

            But the Court decided to rule in a general way on highly debatable anthropological and moral issues, such as the meaning of “identity” and the jurisdiction of our personal decisions when it comes to defining it. Topics on which there is no consensus even within the most specialized sectors.

            https://www.aceprensa.com/english/mexico-a-court-ruling-in-favor-of-age-identity/amp/

            Rather then call for self 'id writers with health issues they should just have called for writers with different abilities and chronic illnesses.

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