Open mike 07/08/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 7th, 2022 - 90 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

90 comments on “Open mike 07/08/2022 ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. Roy cartland 1
    7 August 2022 at 7:05 am

    'I've seen it all': Peter Goodfellow looks back at 50 years as National member https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/472348/i-ve-seen-it-all-peter-goodfellow-looks-back-at-50-years-as-national-member

    I'll never live with regret of not trying new things, embracing new technology, or trying to help our party move into the 21st century.

    Trying.

    😂

  2. tsmithfield 2
    7 August 2022 at 8:19 am

    I have lost a lot of respect for Amnesty International after this tweet that is disgusting on so many levels:

    "Ukrainian forces have put civilians in harm’s way by establishing bases and operating weapons systems in populated residential areas."

    Firstly, Russia is shelling and firing missiles at civilian areas regardless of whether Ukrainian military are there. The primary reason that civilians are at risk is because of Russian actions, independent of the location of Ukrainian forces.

    Secondly, Zelensky specifically ordered civilians to leave the danger zones precisely to avoid the possibility of putting civilians in danger.

    Whereas, Russia intentionally undertakes actions that put civilians at risk, such as placing its forces and equipment deep inside a nuclear power plant and other such positioning of forces to intentionally put civilians in danger. And other human rights violations such as forced conscription in occupied areas.

    Finally, the most disgusting aspect of this tweet is that it gives the Russians moral authority to attack Ukrainian civilians even more, because Amnesty International says that the Ukrainians are placing their forces in those areas.

    • Joe90 2.1
      7 August 2022 at 8:32 am

      Donated for forty years. No more.

    • Ad 2.2
      7 August 2022 at 8:45 am

      Well said.

    • Sanctuary 2.4
      7 August 2022 at 10:16 am

      I infortunately came across an image of the head of a murdered Ukrainian POW on a stake in Popasna, with his hands impaled on a fence railing behind him. Last week a Ukrainian soldier was castrated then shot by Chechen savages in Putin's employ.

      Heads on spikes, ritual castrations, mass murder of POWs. It reads like a recitation of the atrocities of the SS, but it is happening now. This week, yesterday, tomorrow in Europe.

      One struggles for an emotional response to this, except to observe that for savages like the Chechens and the Wagner group the only legitimate response is not to make excuses for Putin or blame NATO or talk about the temerity of the Ukrainian army and it's refusal to relocate from the cities they are defending to a nearby featureless plain for the convenience of Russian artillery but to grimly decide to go about the business of killing the bastards. And if you capture the perpetrators of the atrocities, take them round the back and show them more mercy they showed your mates by doing it quickly.

      Just like our grand/great grand parents did to the last lot of fascist savages in Europe.

    • Visubversa 2.5
      7 August 2022 at 10:26 am

      Amnesty in Ireland and the UK have turned their backs on women. The Amnesty head in Ireland said that Gender Critical people did not deserve political representation and in England the organisation supported "Trans Rights" activists picketing the FiLia international women's conference.

      https://www.filia.org.uk/latest-news/2021/10/26/filia-statement-on-amnesty-international-uk?fbclid=IwAR0ScYk4zWELO2RNS0fuVVtwWZyQMO1cRLhnzXqNMLYdORvOA6qRI6VHYjY

    • Jenny how to get there 2.6
      7 August 2022 at 5:26 pm

      Balanced against all this, is all the good work that Amnesty has done around the world.

      It makes me wonder what can be said about this.

      Was the pressure of the Russian trolls too much?

      Is Amnesty International trying too hard to make their position clear that they are neutral in war zones between the two sides. (The balanced argument approach).

      Amnesty International has some questions to answer

      I am no military expert, isn't the aggressor not the defenders, responsible for the deaths of civilians, if those civilians are being attacked?

      What is Amnesty saying? That the Ukrainian Forces defending their country from Russian aggression should not place themselves in positions to defend civilian areas from Russian attack?

      What does Amnesty think the Ukraine forces should do to protect civilians?

      Withdraw?

  4. Robert Guyton 4
    7 August 2022 at 8:56 am

    This guy, Chris, describes conifers and their usefulness to native plant restoration and land use change, very well. Those who loathe Pinus radiate might learn from his post.

    https://www.facebook.com/chris.perley.39/posts/pfbid02ntswJ11fWBVRQmMgBGHEA2oPMtLJzmHxd8FfepWK9XbXvus4n6TZJTfNruS66QaTl

    • Sabine 4.1
      7 August 2022 at 9:14 am

      They don't loath Pinus Radiatus, they loath why and how Pinus Radiatus is planted and harvested.

      Chances are they have never seen a decent mix forest in the first place, but they for sure see the scars of clear logging from the car whilst travelling and they may had their house flooded cause slash blocked a river and blablabla – that was my MiL a few years back.

      • Robert Guyton 4.1.1
        7 August 2022 at 1:01 pm

        I do believe "they" transfer their loathing onto the tree.

        • Incognito 4.1.1.1
          7 August 2022 at 1:02 pm

          Are they barking up the …?

        • Sabine 4.1.1.2
          7 August 2022 at 5:08 pm

          not sure honestly.

          when i speak to people about the need to re-green and plant the issue comes up and with it the general upset with the damage it does to the environement. I think the idea that one could use these trees in accordance with nature and the specifics here in NZ is yet to be properly advertised and explained. A bit like gorse, when i first came across this plant people thought it a toy of the devil, mind you it is quite a usefull plant used in the correct ways.

      • solkta 4.1.2
        7 August 2022 at 1:11 pm

        I loath them. Fucking ugly trees.

        • Robert Guyton 4.1.2.1
          7 August 2022 at 2:24 pm

          I'd love to have a go at changing your mind, solkta 🙂

          I spent many hours sitting in contemplation of one of the oldest stands of conifer in the country; a mix of pines from around the world. By that stage, they were "elders" and emanated sagacity and poise like no trees I'd ever studied before. We cut them down before they get a chance to express their value, in my opinion 🙂

          • woodart 4.1.2.1.1
            7 August 2022 at 4:06 pm

            have you been to eastwoodhill ? the nz national arboretum. fantastic place.

            • Robert Guyton 4.1.2.1.1.1
              7 August 2022 at 5:31 pm

              I haven't. I've been invited, but my dislike of travel works against me. I believe it to be, as you say, a fantastic place.

    • bwaghorn 4.3
      7 August 2022 at 9:29 am

      From time spent cutting pines down in various places understory depends on where the trees are , around tokoroa it was a jungle in 28 years, out on the coast down kapiti just plain needles , up in the Napier taupo needles and shrub scrub .

      Contorta did seem to just blanket out all life given time though.

      Of course pines can kill rural communities dead though . All for a bit of xhort term gain and feel good .

      • Robert Guyton 4.3.1
        7 August 2022 at 12:12 pm

        Depends somewhat on the proximity to stands of native forest. Those pine forests that didn't develop a strong native understory would have benefitted from seeds from elsewhere, applied by humans.

        • bwaghorn 4.3.1.1
          7 August 2022 at 3:24 pm

          In the case of the Napier taupo end of kiangaroa I'd say the hungry nature of the pumice soils where the limiting factor.

    • Pingao 4.4
      7 August 2022 at 9:47 am

      Yes some exotic conifers can help with restoration, and other exotics such as gorse can too but it still all depends on the particular biome and environment and on the species. For example some Pinus species are incredibly invasive in upland environments and destroy local plant and animal communities.

      On Banks Peninsula for example, my own experience is that Pinus radiata is great when thinned out as it matures and allows mahoe etc. to establish but only in the gullies and lower areas. It is also great habitat for piwakawaka and other birds if it is not a dense monoculture of pine. Radiata however has and is wiping out the shrublands on the upper slopes where numerous small-leaved plants and climbers that insects and lizards depend on are the natural habitat.

      Indigenous plants also create fantastic successional habitat and indeed the variation and differences between species are critical to healthy ecosystems as they respond to different environmental factors and disturbance over time. Pinus radiata shades out light loving species such as Manuka, kanuka, tumatakorou (matagouri).

      Established forest via succession (basically taller more woody plants come to dominance over time) is not an end point and, in my opinion, nor should it be a goal for everywhere. Shrublands, tussocklands, alpine ecosystems and wetlands are all just as critical to a healthy living environment.

      Finally, we also have our own conifers in New Zealand – the mighty ones such as Totara, Matai, Kahikatea, Rimu, Kawaka – they just need time.

      • weka 4.4.1
        7 August 2022 at 4:09 pm

        lovely commentary, thanks.

        What would have been growing on the upper slopes of Banks Peninsula originally?

      • DB Brown 4.4.2
        7 August 2022 at 5:36 pm

        Thank you. Sometimes the love of poetry takes over Robert's love of ecology.

    • Graeme 4.5
      7 August 2022 at 10:17 am

      In the old Kaingaroa there were a couple of compartments that were planted in the very early days (20's – 30's) and just left, with no silvicultural inputs to see what happened. The old NZFS did a lot of that in it's function as a research institute. In the late 70's I was tasked with surveying a road line through the corner of the compartment and we may as well have been across the valley in Te Urewera, the understory was so thick. At around 50 years old the pines were going through a phase of self thinning where the stronger trees were displacing weaker ones, dead and fallen pines all over the place and vigorous native understory coming away in the gaps. Took us several weeks to cut and survey 300m of line. Strangely I don't remember cutting any young pines, just native understory.

      In another mature (30 yrs and about to harvest) compartment at Minganui that abutted the native, at the boundary between the pines and native the understory was very similar but the big trees were pines at regular spacings rather than mixed native at much wider random spacings.

      • Robert Guyton 4.5.1
        7 August 2022 at 11:48 am

        Thanks for that insight, Graeme. The key is leaving the pines to mature. My hope is the pine plantations going in now will never be mass-harvested and most with live long and their native understory, prosper.

        • arkie 4.5.1.1
          7 August 2022 at 12:06 pm

          This also reminds me of a Country Calendar episode I saw many years ago about a couple who had an open forest style paddock (it was the site of the original farmhouse and had numerous large exotic trees planted a century ago). They ran dairy cattle in the paddock, they didn't need to irrigate or fertilise it and claimed a 20% increase in milk productivity. Sadly I can't find any reference online.

          However I did also find this:

          Ngāi Tahu and the government have joined forces on a new project to validate the science of regenerative farming.

          The seven year research programme will compare side-by-side dairy farms to assess the environmental impacts of their practices.

          One 286-hectare farm will use regenerative farming practices while the adjacent 330-hectare farm will use conventional methods.

          Both farms will have a stocking rate of 3.2 cows per hectare.

          The regenerative farm will use a more diverse pasture species, will have a longer rotation length and will use natural fertilisers over synthetic ones.

          https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/country/472289/government-and-ngai-tahu-to-work-together-on-regenerative-farming-project

          Let's hope they can include increased tree-planting as part of this experiment.

        • Graeme 4.5.1.2
          7 August 2022 at 12:14 pm

          It would be interesting to see what would happen if that was done around East Cape. Worked on some of the early re-foresting of abandoned farms up there and it was obvious harvesting was going to be a marginal exercise when we were trying to put roads in to just plant the blocks, let alone get the logs out on them. I can remember a Forester at the time saying that leaving the blocks to revert to permanent native or hybrid was the best thing to do with them.

    • Belladonna 4.6
      7 August 2022 at 10:45 am

      So why are wilding pines such a major threat then?

      https://www.doc.govt.nz/nature/pests-and-threats/weeds/common-weeds/wilding-conifers/

      Is it that they create 'forest' in previously unforested areas?

      Because if, left alone, they result in re-forestation of primarily indigenous species – they shouldn't be a problem….

      • Pingao 4.6.1
        7 August 2022 at 11:53 am

        It depends on the pine species and on the local environment. Lodgepole pine is a very destructive pest in subalpine areas for example. Pinus radiata (Monterey pine) is not too bad in many lowland areas if it is allowed to stand and is not planted too densely so that lowland indigenous forest species can establish quickly. Not much lowland land would be allowed to have such pine forests though as it is prime land thanks to the millennia of tall lowland forest.

        • Belladonna 4.6.1.1
          7 August 2022 at 8:53 pm

          Thanks, to the uninitiated 'pine' tends to mean all pines – so interesting/useful to know that different varieties are pests of differing severity.

      • Graeme 4.6.2
        7 August 2022 at 11:54 am

        Around here, Central Otago and specifically Whakatipu, it's not so much the introduced pine but the specific species. Here the endemic forest cover would be Mountain Beech forest from valley floor to 1000m, with alpines and tussock above.

        The wilding conifers, Douglas Fir, Larch and P. Contorta, will grow up to 2000m so we'll end up with something very different to what was natural.

        There's a lot of work going on locally exploring the possibilities of re-establishing Mountain Beech to replace wildings with some very encouraging results. Interestingly there is evidence of a mycorrhizal relationship between Beech and Douglas Fir, and possibly other introduced conifers. Beech seem to do a lot better when the roots are in association with a Douglas Fir's roots. Some experiments going on to replicate this and explore other species of conifer. It's early days but idea of replacing the Douglas Firs above Queenstown and around Whakatipu with Mountain Beech may quickly become a thing.

        • Robert Guyton 4.6.2.1
          7 August 2022 at 12:07 pm

          Replacing the Douglas fir, or adding to the Douglas fir?

          • Graeme 4.6.2.1.1
            7 August 2022 at 12:35 pm

            Work in progress Robert. There's some very high risk Douglas Fir blocks that are being removed, like the Arrowtown Endowment block behind Millbrook which is going to be replaced. There's also trials with encouraging supercedure within Douglas Fir and other conifer species.

            All very live science with a couple of PHDs underway. Unfortunately not a lot of funding but it's looking promising.

            • Robert Guyton 4.6.2.1.1.1
              7 August 2022 at 12:58 pm

              I hope you'll keeps posted, Graeme. Your mention of the fungal interdependence interested me the most. I think we know too little about this. One aspect of the fungal nets is their capacity for sequestering carbon. We haven't yet factored that in. Presently, we value connectivity poorly and allow our systems, livestock farming in particular, to dice up our landscapes into disconnected units. This is far more damaging than we perceive presently, I believe.

        • DB Brown 4.6.2.2
          7 August 2022 at 5:39 pm

          I observed up here in Auckland some trees are promiscuous hosts of mycorrhizae. If you want to hasten succession identifying those species in each biome would prove valuable.

    • Cricklewood 4.7
      7 August 2022 at 4:55 pm

      Personally I dont think monoculture forest should count towards carbon credits. I'd like to see far more mixed forest planted co training both native and exotics with a view to providing nectar sources.

      Here in Auckland Prunus campanulata is in full bloom (recently banned here) every tree in my street is packed with Tuis except the few that have a resident that's puffed up and really doesn't want to share.

      It's an invaluable source of nectar in a time of scarcity we need to be far smarter with our approach to reforestation.

      • Robert Guyton 4.7.1
        7 August 2022 at 5:35 pm

        "Here in Auckland Prunus campanulata is in full bloom (recently banned here) every tree in my street is packed with Tuis "

        Therein lies he rub – what to do, what to do?

        Work with those generous plants, not against them.

        When they become redundant, retire them.

        They won't mind.

        Till then, respect them for what they do.

        Imo

        • solkta 4.7.1.1
          7 August 2022 at 6:18 pm

          Retire them. Haha. Have you seen how this shit grows in Northland?

          • PsyclingLeft.Always 4.7.1.1.1
            7 August 2022 at 6:26 pm

            Seeds are long-lived and widely dispersed. It is tolerant of warm and cold climates, low to medium rainfall. Forms dense stands that are long-lived.

            https://www.weedbusters.org.nz/what-are-weeds/weed-list/taiwan-cherry/

            Introduced weed trees..like other INTRODUCED pest plants…pest animals..pest insects. harmful to our NZ Native Biodiversity.

            Aye Weedbusters !

            • Cricklewood 4.7.1.1.1.1
              7 August 2022 at 6:58 pm

              But it's more complicated than that, they can enhance our biodiversity given they provide abundant nectar to our native birds thus supporting a population recovery.

              Give me a deciduous Prunus forest over Pine any day of the week.

              • solkta …
                7 August 2022 at 7:13 pm

                They do not enhance our biodiversity. What bullshit. What will Tui eat the rest of the year when we only have this shit because they have crowded everything else out?

                • PsyclingLeft.Always …
                  7 August 2022 at 7:18 pm

                  These attractive birds can often be heard singing their beautiful melodies before they are spotted. You will recognise them by their distinctive white tuft under their throat.

                  They are important pollinators of many native trees and will fly large distances, especially during winter for their favourite foods. They feed mainly on nectar from flowers of native plants such as kōwhai, puriri, rewarewa, kahikatea, pohutukawa, rātā and flax.

                  Occasionally they will eat insects too.

                  https://www.doc.govt.nz/nature/native-animals/birds/birds-a-z/tui/

                  Native plants and shrubs are the best way to attract native birds to your garden.

                  https://www.forestandbird.org.nz/resources/native-plants-attract-birds

                  And Aye !!. I have been growing some of these (Kowhai, Flax, Cabbage Tree ,etc; ). Tui Love. them and Bellbird !

                • Cricklewood …
                  7 August 2022 at 7:25 pm

                  I've not seen any dense Prunus forest in NZ even remotely like Gorse or wind blown Pine… the fact that its deciduous kinda prevents that… I'd be more worried about Kiwifruit now that's a real problem…

          • Robert Guyton 4.7.1.1.2
            7 August 2022 at 6:59 pm

            I don't know about them, so I did my research 🙂

            "

            Love the trees or hate them, the tui have no qualms at all. The nectar is manna from heaven to them. And therein lies the problem. I was contacted recently by someone who is crusading against the sale and planting of campanulata cherries and I was only relatively sympathetic because I think we are in danger of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

            The problem is the seeding habits of some campanulatas. Many set prodigious amounts of seed which is then spread far and wide by our bird population. There is an alarmingly high rate of germination. The seedlings grow rapidly and after the second season, plants are too big to hand pull out. If you cut them off, they grow again. So bad is the problem that they have been banned in Northland and this correspondent would like to see them banned everywhere.

            “There are loads of better trees for Tui such as Kowhai, Rewarewa that can be available at the same time” he claimed. I don’t want to be picky with someone who genuinely cares for the environment, but on a property packed with food for the birds, I have never seen a plant as attractive to tui as the campanulata cherries. Besides, in late winter, neither kowhai nor rewarewa are in flower yet.

            I mentioned babies and bathwater because the problem is seeding. There are sterile forms of campanulata and both gardeners and tui alike may rue the day if ALL campanulatas get banned, even the named forms that never set seed. This is a problem we gardeners have brought upon ourselves. The record of garden escapes into the wild is not a proud one and too many gardeners don’t take responsibility for their weeds."

            https://jury.co.nz/2013/08/23/the-pros-and-cons-of-the-campanulata-cherries/

            • Cricklewood 4.7.1.1.2.1
              7 August 2022 at 7:09 pm

              Mostly in agreement with that although whilst abundant I dont see a situation where Prunus will prevent the establishment of or overtake our very hardy natives (which can outlast gorse.) They're more a useful addition at least for our birds and those of us that enjoy the winter blossom… Not to different to Karaka really just many generations later…

        • Cricklewood 4.7.1.2
          7 August 2022 at 6:59 pm

          Agreed, I just cant abide a monoculture 🙃

      • solkta 4.7.2
        7 August 2022 at 6:22 pm

        Next you will be saying we should save the Woolly Nightshade for the Kereru.

        • Robert Guyton 4.7.2.1
          7 August 2022 at 7:26 pm

          Woolly nightshade can look after itself – doesn't need our help.

          The primary plant-agent-of-destruction of native forests here in NZ has been the pasture grasses; it's everywhere and our forests have fallen at their approach.

          Deeply saddening (see kahikatea especially).

  6. joe90 6
    7 August 2022 at 9:37 am

    The alternative to Pharmac.

    Steve Ubl, who leads the nation’s top industry group for drugmakers, is offering a final salvo to Congress as Democratic lawmakers inch closer to passing their sweeping reconciliation package that includes drug pricing measures — and threatening swift retaliation if they don’t listen, he told POLITICO.

    Ubl’s group, the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America, or PhRMA, and its 31 board members sent a letter to every member of Congress on Thursday afternoon, urging them to vote against the package

    https://www.politico.com/news/2022/08/04/head-of-top-pharma-group-says-dems-who-vote-for-bill-wont-get-a-free-pass-00049898

  7. Sabine 7
    7 August 2022 at 10:11 am

    This is a truly lovely read of salmon, native tribes of the US and "Aotearoa in New Zealand" and a much desired and cherished home coming.

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2022/8/6/2114937/-After-80-years-Winnemem-Wintu-and-partners-return-winter-run-Chinook-to-Mccloud-River

    We know it’s not ideal, it’s not New Zealand salmon yet, but it’s a step in the right direction.”

    According to the Tribe, this event is one step in the journey that was launched in 2010, when Winnemem tribal members went to Aotearoa in New Zealand to sing and dance for their salmon relatives that have been waiting for 100 years to return to their home waters.

  8. Stephen D 8
    7 August 2022 at 10:32 am

    Pablo putting the latest Chinese manoeuvres in perspective.

    https://www.kiwipolitico.com/2022/08/considering-pelosis-visit-to-taiwan/

    “PRC military exercises after Pelosi’s visit are akin to silverback male gorillas who run around thrashing branches and beating their chests when annoyed, disturbed or seeking to show dominance. They are certainly dangerous and not to be ignored, but their aggression is about signaling/posturing, not imminent attack. In other words, the behaviour is a demonstration of physical capabilities and general disposition rather than real immediate intent. If and when the PRC assault on Taiwan comes, it will not be telegraphed.”

  9. Poission 9
    7 August 2022 at 10:36 am

    With the arrest of Joseph Stalin in Sri Lanka questions are being asked.

    https://twitter.com/edwest/status/1555094350173986816?cxt=HHwWgICz5c-E55QrAAAA

  10. Joe90 10
    7 August 2022 at 3:44 pm

    And arseholery.

    The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness

    ― John Kenneth Galbraith

    "To young people who don’t want to work: You might have a free ride under Labour, but under National, it ends,” Luxon said.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/129502939/christopher-luxon-uses-conference-speech-to-promise-end-to-free-ride-for-young-beneficiaries

    • Alan 10.1
      7 August 2022 at 3:56 pm

      So Natioanl wants to help young people have a shot at a life of earning an income and having some self esteem and you think that's a bad thing????

      • Puckish Rogue 10.1.1
        7 August 2022 at 4:08 pm

        The devils in the details, I'll wait to see what it actually means.

        • Barfly 10.1.1.1
          7 August 2022 at 4:40 pm

          Well surprise surprise the national Party promises consequences and sanctions (did they forget to say 'crackdown'?) on beneficiaries. SSDD they really are the supreme arseholes of New Zealand.

          • Puckish Rogue 10.1.1.1.1
            7 August 2022 at 4:42 pm

            All political parties lie but in this instance I want to see what they're actually saying beyond the headline

            • Barfly 10.1.1.1.1.1
              7 August 2022 at 6:12 pm

              PR I remember well the JK years – when approaching elections the National would go big on beneficiary crackdowns – promises of sanctions and punishments and new hoops to jump through for those least able to fare well in our society. The National Party did this for electoral advantage as many of their fans really enjoy the underclass being punished Luxon is busy now wooing these people by throwing them lots of 'raw meat'. We have recently seen some people claim that the Labour Government has caused division with the vaccine mandates – yet there is fuck all said about Nationals promotion of of ill will to beneficiaries. Same Shit Different Day.

        • bwaghorn 10.1.1.2
          7 August 2022 at 6:22 pm

          It's the national party ,it'll be all whip , smashing down on what they see as weak people who just need to get it together and become high achieveing self made winners like them . !!!

      • observer 10.1.2
        7 August 2022 at 4:39 pm

        Help? That'd be great – if the promise meant anything …

        When I became unemployed about a decade ago I went to WINZ and asked for help. Sure, I got some financial support, and I was glad of that, but I was very down and really wanted the kind of one-on-one counselling that Luxon mentions today in his speech:

        “Young jobseekers will get more support, with a proper assessment of their barriers, and an individual job plan to address those barriers, and find a job.

        (instead of currently …)

        You don't have to have a case manager, though you can call an 0800 number if you want one. That is far too casual.”

        So why didn't I have a case manager? Why wasn't somebody dedicated to my personal support?

        Simple. Cost. Yes, Luxon is proposing an expensive investment in people, call them coaches, counsellors, case workers, whatever.

        I'd be all for that, but it will come with a hefty price tag, and only a fool would believe National wants to fund it.

        • KJT 10.1.2.1
          7 August 2022 at 5:30 pm

          National, as usual, wants to ensure that exploitative underpaying arseholes of employers, have a constant supply of forced labour.

    • Muttonbird 10.2
      7 August 2022 at 5:29 pm

      Punching down on our young people right after a 1 in 100 year pandemic.

      This mirrors the time when egghead said NZ businesses are soft. Zero compassion. Should be easy for the PM to tear the Botany bumbler a new one.

      He’s going to give 20 somethings a grand if the stay in a job for a year? I’ve worked for 30 years, where’s my money?

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 10.2.1
        7 August 2022 at 7:02 pm

        Last year it was race relations and it proved a big hit — this year it is beneficiaries.

        National leader Don Brash returned to the Orewa Rotary Club north of Auckland — the scene of last year's triumphant "one law for all" speech — with welfare firmly in his sights.

        Comparing himself to the first Labour prime minister Michael Joseph Savage, who he called a fiscal and moral conservative, Dr Brash said they both saw welfare as a temporary measure.

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/brash-pledges-tougher-rules-for-beneficiaries/JZDMDCDVJC3NA6QYBPOMAECJFA/

        Yea just more nat party dogwhistlin’ from the playbook ! Note Brash…ex Reserve Bank, Ex Nat Leader, still Act ?…..but anyway…Comparing himself to Michael J Savage ? asshole. !

    • Mac1 10.3
      7 August 2022 at 6:50 pm

      What's the number of people that he is targeting? How many are already using case managers? The use of a payment for a years's good work after a year on a benefit is on the face of it a reasonable idea. As PR says at 10.1.1 the devil is in the detail- of which little was provided by Luxon.

    • Mac1 10.4
      7 August 2022 at 6:58 pm

      That quote from JK Galbraith is pure gold. "Because we earned it", "because we deserve it," "because we are blessed by it…."

      National says, "Because we hard -working kiwis earned it and we deserve it whereas they don't because they are lazy, sinful and not like us".

    • Jester 10.5
      7 August 2022 at 7:48 pm

      There should be very few young people on job seeker benefit for over a year as I've said on here before (although all the three amigos (moderators) disagree with me). Shops, factories, companies, restaurants all around NZ are crying out for staff and offering wages well in excess of job seeker benefit. But too many NZ'ers would rather stay on the benefit. Time for these young people to contribute to society rather than be a burden on it.

      • Incognito 10.5.1
        7 August 2022 at 8:18 pm

        … (although all the three amigos (moderators) disagree with me).

        You obviously refuse to inform yourself of the facts and rather act like an unthinking parrot flapping your little wings when you think you hear the sounds of bennie bashing. If you had at least some kind of opinion with a decent argument we could debate you, but as it stands our efforts would be wasted like pouring rum into an alcoholic’s mouth.

      • Descendant Of Smith 10.5.2
        7 August 2022 at 10:13 pm

        Why pick on young people?

        Looking at MSD's fact sheets young people are the smallest group on benefit at 15.3% down from 16.3% a year ago. In fact they have had the biggest drop in the last twelve months. That suggests young people are going to work faster than all other groups. Those lazy 55-64 year olds have gone up the most. Sanction them. Fucking retiring early bastards. Hit them before they turn into the most hardworking, honest, never been off work a day in my life deserving people at 65.

        I don't have excel so can't look at the detailed data but it seems Luxon is dog whistling at the wrong group of people.

        https://www.msd.govt.nz/documents/about-msd-and-our-work/publications-resources/statistics/monthly-reporting/2022/june/monthly-benefits-update-june-2022.pdf

      • Descendant Of Smith 10.5.3
        7 August 2022 at 10:20 pm

        restaurants all around NZ are crying out for staff

        lol. I thought most were crying poverty because there are no tourists and no-one working in the CBD.

    • SPC 10.6
      7 August 2022 at 8:21 pm

      The key detail is that National wants to contract out management of these (under 25) cases, not MSD staff.

      MSD uses work brokers to interface (matching skills) between business and those on the JS Benefit.

      The pertinent issue is why these "youth" are not being connected to training for work providers – one reason might be staffing issues in them and MSD due to COVID and general labour issues slowing down delivery of services.

      • Descendant Of Smith 10.6.1
        7 August 2022 at 9:50 pm

        There's work to be done for them churches.

        Just like Paula Bennet gave millions of dollars in funding to her religious mates to run parenting courses (still waiting for an evaluation of their effectiveness), the churches are busy making money helping the homeless now they will be "helping" our young people.

        Bring back orphanages and homes for unmarried mothers I say. Poorhouses for the sanctioned ones.

  11. Jenny how to get there 11
    7 August 2022 at 3:47 pm

    Hallelujah!

    It's like Jesus put on few pounds, shaved off his beard, put on shades and died his hair.

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/an-ode-for-bishop-brian

  12. Ad 12
    7 August 2022 at 4:49 pm

    It would have been so easy for Luxon to give just a tiniest bit of the steps to making us a more prosperous, more engaged, more uplifted country.

    Going down the route of beneficiaries is the same sad punitive bullshit.

    I would give National $1,000 to get themselves off their donor welfare, and then just make them all go cold turkey.

  14. Belladonna 14
    7 August 2022 at 9:10 pm

    I'm sorry if this has already been covered (I've been mostly offline over the past few days, with work and family)

    But I thought this was a really interesting result – a hefty and increasing percentage of Kiwis think that if you have to shift because of climate change (rising sea levels, etc.) 'society' (govt or local govt) should not have to pay the whole of the cost, and that the home-owner should have to pay a significant percentage.

    The really key question of 'who pays' not answered in the National Adaptation plan, just released.

    Caveat. The research was commissioned by an insurer – so caveat emptor.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/129480406/half-of-new-zealanders-think-there-should-be-no-right-to-live-in-highrisk-climate-areas

    Have to say, in Auckland, at least, the communities most 'threatened' by climate change, sea level rise and/or extreme weather – are the wealthy ones. I don't see why a landowner on Takapuna Beach should have the 'value' of a beachfront house for 20+ years, then have the taxpayer/ratepayer pay the bill for them to relocate once the rising tide is lapping at their front doorstep.

    This seems to be a shift from the public attitude around the 'red zone' relocations in Christchurch. Where the public attitude was that this was an entirely unforeseen issue (no one predicted earthquakes and/or liquefaction prior to 2010), and residents could hardly be blamed for not planning ahead.

    Whereas the rise in climate risks is entirely predictable, and you can take sensible precautions (sell your beach-front lifestyle while you still can; re-build houses to be transportable; invest some of your millions in other residential sections, to manage your own retreat, etc.)

    • Visubversa 14.1
      7 August 2022 at 9:26 pm

      For some years Councils have been aware of sea level rises, storm surge extents, flood plain capacities etc. This information is on LIM reports and on Council GIS systems. In a previous incarnation I was a Land Use Planner and I regularly had to contend with restrictions on site developments because of these factors. They ranged from a site subject to a 1.5m high storm surge where the lower level of the dwelling was not able to be habitable – restricted to storage, garage, laundry etc, and all electrical works had to be above the 1.5m height – to sites where any further development or subdivision required safe egress (basically – a bridge) to be constructed from the dwelling to the driveway – or where no further development was possible because of the nature of the flood danger. There will be an ever increasing number of these areas,