Open mike 06/09/2023

90 comments on “Open mike 06/09/2023 ”

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1. PsyclingLeft.Always 1

   6 September 2023 at 8:02 am

   National vs Labour yes. But also ACT vs Greens. Cue Seymour/Rimmer with yet more mouthdrain..

   “Julie Anne, I wouldn’t trust you to run the economy of Venezuela let alone New Zealand,” Seymour said.

   And on the back of his "reckons" of historical icons who woulda voted ACT (Nelson Mandela ! ) He also "reckons" Kate Sheppard !?

   “I’m glad Kate Sheppard never listened to that logic,” Seymour said, adding that Sheppard might have been an Act voter.

   And….a bit of

   “If we had taxed prosperity, all of Julie Anne’s mates would have won the Cold War,” Seymour said.

   https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/insults-fly-first-finance-debate

   Who seriously thinks he is worthy of a vote?
   • Mike the Lefty 1.1

     6 September 2023 at 10:27 am

     Those who value money above all else.
2. Tiger Mountain 2

   6 September 2023 at 8:21 am

   Really CTU…retreat? Mr Wagstaff–please stand up to the thugs.

   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/09/election-2023-council-of-trade-unions-closes-doors-to-public-calls-cops-after-concerning-response-to-christoper-luxon-attack-ad.html

   The response should have been to call in Wellington workplace delegates to stand and show public solidarity at the office and keep on trucking.

   Back in the 80s at the sizeable Auckland Trade Union Centre in Grey Lynn, a full time front door security desk was set up following Ernie Abbott’s 1984 murder by suitcase bomb, at the Wellington Trades Hall. The open anti union threats had been escalating for years thanks to Muldoon, and further after Winston’s 1981 “Kiwis Care Tanya Harris march”. At that event signs were spotted–“kill communist union officials”…nice, but that is the dark New Zealanders for you.
   • Red Blooded One 2.1

     6 September 2023 at 8:28 am

     The Kiwi Care march was not anything to do with Winston. It was not planned as an Anti-Union March but became hijacked in the Media as such. I spent a good portion of that day blocking Politicians from getting anywhere near the Mic.
     • joe90 2.1.1

       6 September 2023 at 2:01 pm

       Of course it was anti-union. Harris and the suits marched in response to rolling- strikes by engineers, wharfies, meat workers and firemen.

       
       • Red Blooded One 2.1.1.1

         6 September 2023 at 2:15 pm

         I have said what wasn't planned as, and it wasn't anti-union. "Suits" tried to suck up to her all day and she didn't want a bar of them. What the media reported it to be is up to them.
         • Tiger Mountain 2.1.1.1.1

           6 September 2023 at 2:27 pm

           Well, I was involved with the Northern Storeworkers and other unions at the time including retail, and the fact is all around the Auck. CBD employers granted paid time off and encouraged clerical workers too to attend the Tania Harris march with their blessing.

           Bosses did not extend the same offer to staff for the two big Queen St NZFOL (NZ Federation of Labour) union marches of 1979 and 1982.
           • Red Blooded One 2.1.1.1.1.1

             6 September 2023 at 2:46 pm

             I was a member of the Clerical Union at the time. I don't recall being encouraged to attend or being given time off. Not saying it didn't happen to you though and yes it was hijacked by anti union sentiment people, but in my opinion it simply wasn't planned that way.
           • Anne 2.1.1.1.1.2

             6 September 2023 at 5:13 pm

             CBD employers granted paid time off and encouraged clerical workers too to attend the Tania Harris march with their blessing.

             I can attest to that. In my case it was a Public Service department and the bosses also attended that March. I, and one other, were the only two who refused to attend so we stayed behind and ran the joint in their absence. For our pains we were ostracised by the bosses and made to feel like second grade individuals.

             Tanya what's-her-name may not have intended as such, but it was hijacked by the anti -Union movement of the day.
   • weka 2.2

     6 September 2023 at 10:26 am

     if they had to call the police, they probably have had a credible death threat or similar. We're not in the 80s any more. We're post-Ashburton where a man walked into a WINZ office, murdered two staff and injured two others, unions take that shit very seriously. We're also in the age where the leader of a political party has been assaulted on the street while walking to work. And this election in particular is a point of tension where we don't know if we are going to tip into crazy or stronger democracy.
     • Tiger Mountain 2.2.1

       6 September 2023 at 1:42 pm

       It’s not like the 80s were some placid time weka, we got door security at the TUC because someone had died in a clear attack on Unions. Sure if Police advise to do whatever, that has to be considered, but not at the risk of looking weak under anonymous threat.

       Unions act in public and under great scrutiny–just doing a bargaining process agreement before you can even negotiate with an employer, is an example of the complexities faced by union members and organising staff.

       In contrast the fruitcakes and would be fascists operate largely undercover and need to be outed where ever possible. Unions should publicly send them a message.
   • Mike the Lefty 2.3

     6 September 2023 at 10:36 am

     I was in the Wellington Trades Hall just a day before the bombing, working on a union newspaper. It was just fate that I was not there at the wrong time because I finished my duties that day.

     I remember that a certain man had come by the place a few days before and had made some undisclosed threats to people in the building. The police were called, given a good description of the man but police apparently did not make much effort to locate him.

     This was the time of the Muldoon government, there was a lot of industrial unrest in the country and there had been a recent bus drivers strike. The general consensus around Trades Hall was that police had been told by the Muldoon government not to pursue the matter and the culprit was never apprehended.
     Poor old Ernie Abbot was the caretaker there, simply going about his job.

     A bunch of commie unionists were not considered worthy of police protection, you know!
     • Anne 2.3.1

       6 September 2023 at 12:20 pm

       The general consensus around Trades Hall was that police had been told by the Muldoon government not to pursue the matter and the culprit was never apprehended.

       Mike the Lefty that is of special interest to me.

       I knew a small group of people (one in particular) who I later discovered had been up to all manner of under-the-radar political activities – including criminal deeds – in the 1970s and part of the 1980s. There was a close link between Muldoon and at least one of that group. I ended up also being targeted by them.

       I was unaware of the extent of their activities nor the link to Muldoon until a number of years later. One of the principle figures fled to Aussie in strange circumstances and spent two years moving around the country – as if he was in hiding. That was, from memory, shortly before the 1984 snap election called by Muldoon.

       I did eventually pluck up the courage to inform the police of my knowledge and experiences. The police to my knowledge conducted no investigation.

       Just a brief encounter of my experience and I have to say my respect for, and faith in the police took a rapid spiral downward as a result and has never fully recovered.
       • Mike the Lefty 2.3.1.1

         6 September 2023 at 1:09 pm

         Thanks for that information Anne. There did seem to be a gang operating under the implicit direction of Muldoon to seek out suspected communist political infiltrators. Bill Such was perhaps its best known target but Ken Douglas and Tom Skinner were also repeatedly harrassed. It was very covert but possibly had links to the SIS. Muldoon had few limits to the extent he would go for political gains.
         • Anne 2.3.1.1.1

           6 September 2023 at 5:00 pm

           Not only can I name a couple of the culprits, but I can also name one or two high profile individuals of the day who were involved. I can also name a newspaper that was in on the game. Yes, The Truth newspaper – a misnomer if ever there was one. And yes, there were innocent people caught up in the sting. I was one of them. An untold story thus far but I have in the past hinted at some of my experiences.

           The criminal offences committed in the name of the former prime minister, RD Muldoon were numerous and affected a lot of people. Colin Moyle was another well publicised target. There were a few other major events of the period that were subjected to the same behaviour. The fallout from the 1979 Erebus tragedy was one of them. I'll leave it there.
           • Mike the Lefty 2.3.1.1.1.1

             6 September 2023 at 5:18 pm

             I love to see all this in a book, have you considered writing one?
             • Anne …

               6 September 2023 at 7:05 pm

               The problem MtL there was a major cover-up. It has taken me almost 30 years to ferret out what really happened.

               I would need assistance – someone with journalistic experience perhaps – to help me put it together in an acceptable form. I'm not sure after all these years whether there would be much appetite for the story.

               Suffice to say it was tied up with the antics of the Cold War era and the paranoia that accompanied it.
               • Johnr …

                 6 September 2023 at 8:29 pm

                 Hi Anne,

                 I value your experiences and a book would of infinite value. Have you thought to contact Nicky Hagar
                 • Anne …

                   6 September 2023 at 11:17 pm

                   It has crossed my mind but I think Hagar's interests lie in more recent events. 20 years ago he would have been intrigued I am sure, but unfortunately back then I didn't have the knowledge and understanding that I have now.
                   • Tiger Mountain …

                     7 September 2023 at 7:39 am

                     There is a book that might be of interest Anne, if you are not aware of it already, called “Seeing Red–Undercover in 1950s New Zealand”

                     By George Fraser. 1995 The Dunmore Press Ltd.
                     ISBN 0 86469 255 2

                     George was a jazz musician who also worked at NZBC with a relative of mine, and was recruited by special branch NZ Police who were the precursors of the NZ SIS, to be a plant in the NZ Communist Party and pass on information to them. Many adventures followed as can be imagined.
                   • Anne …

                     7 September 2023 at 11:25 am

                     Interesting TM. I will check out my local library.

                     I researched the 1960s era for some background knowledge and it is clear there was a period between the hand-over to the newly minted SIS and the Police special branch when there were two spy agenciesa breaking into properties and conducting surveillance activity. My reasonably well informed conclusion is: it was the Police special branch crowd who were active in my case.

                     The police also put plants in the Labour Party during those decades. As a LP activist in the 1970s and part of the 1980s, I was befriended by one of them. She did a great job pretending to be a good friend and confidant. Imagine my shock and anger when I eventually discovered the truth about her.

                     Those types did a lot of irreversible damage to innocent people and were never brought to account. To my way of thinking, that is a big stain on the NZ body politic.
                   • Francesca …

                     8 September 2023 at 2:43 pm

                     I would certainly love to read your story in a book Anne.I suspect the same stuff is happening today, not at the behest of a politician necessarily, but for eg entrenched secretive civil servants at GCSB,SIS and the multifarious intelligence agencies.For that reason your experience is absolutely relevant
                   • Anne …

                     8 September 2023 at 3:20 pm

                     @ Francesca.

                     I'm 90% sure that at least some of the activity linked to my case was related to the Police and not the SIS. The reason had its genesis in a former cabinet minister who checked out a particular incident at the time it occurred and it was not carried out by the SIS. They are the professionals in the game and there are limits beyond which they cannot go – and I don't believe would want to go. The bunch who were targeting me and others, including some politicians, were amateurs. They were almost certainly acting on behalf of Muldoon, but far enough removed to allow him to deny any direct association had anything come to light.

                     The problem after all these years is… the evidence has long since disappeared.
     • Tiger Mountain 2.3.2

       6 September 2023 at 1:36 pm

       Yes, I know a couple of people that looked at the suitcase and left it undisturbed, and another that was meant to be at Trades Hall that day but changed plans.
     • Mac1 2.3.3

       6 September 2023 at 1:47 pm

       Coincidentally, Mrs Mac1 and I visited the Trades Hall today and paid our respects to Ernie Abbot in the foyer there. I also found there two other paintings of union people killed. Lest we forget!
       • Tiger Mountain 2.3.3.1

         6 September 2023 at 2:10 pm

         FG Evans (Waihi miner 1912) and Christine Clarke (Lyttleton Port picket 1999)?
         • Mac1 2.3.3.1.1

           6 September 2023 at 5:49 pm

           Yes, Tiger Mountain, those are they. You have not forgotten. You know, we have met and seen some very decent kiwis on our little travels to Wellington. Some great parents on the ferry, staff as well, and then here in the city. We read of dodgy people in the news and grotesque views in the social media, and we can get a different view of where Kiwis are. Kiwis like Ernie Abbot, Evans and Clarke. Decent folk. Good values. A world away from the sociopaths, the angry misfits and the greedy.

           Our political campaigns should be aimed there- to get back the votes of decent ordinary folks, the true heart of our country.
           • Tiger Mountain 2.3.3.1.1.1

             6 September 2023 at 6:18 pm

             
             • Anne …

               6 September 2023 at 6:26 pm

               

               They abound in all walks of life and it amazes me how well informed they are too. But you never hear from them. No clickbait to be had from normal, decent people.
     • PsyclingLeft.Always 2.3.4

       7 September 2023 at 8:31 am

       I have to say Mike the Lefty…reading your stories, I have much Respect for you…Tiger Mountain, Anne and others. I did know about the Trades Hall bombing..but all of you have given me real Insight into the level of hate against the Left then.

       You …were, and are now, only standing up for our rights.

       Which NAct will be only too keen to take away.
   • Visubversa 2.4

     7 September 2023 at 4:55 am

     Yep – nobody got past the stalwarts who staffed that desk.
3. Blazer 3

   6 September 2023 at 8:40 am

   Does the leader of a political party need real life experience.You know the trials and tribulations of the working class,family life,obligations to children and an understanding of the financial realities facing ordinary people.

   Can't see how flying…virgin would be a qualification.
   • Incognito 3.1

     6 September 2023 at 9:11 am

     Was this comment meant for Twitter X or Facebook Meta? It sure reads like it.
     • Blazer 3.1.1

       6 September 2023 at 9:19 am

       No.I'm quite genuine .

       Should political leaders have a grounding in real life experience.

       The so called squeezed middle is about families coping with everyday life.

       A single,celibate person would not have much voter appeal,I would suggest.
       • Incognito 3.1.1.1

         6 September 2023 at 9:42 am

         I still don’t know what you’re on about. Is this an exercise in hypotheticals or do you have anything specific you’d like to discuss here? Say what you mean and mean what you say.
       • Mike the Lefty 3.1.1.2

         6 September 2023 at 10:47 am

         I remember that some media outlets accused Helen Clark of having no empathy for families because she herself had no children.
         • Mac1 3.1.1.2.1

           6 September 2023 at 1:56 pm

           Would they have said that about Christ, Mother Theresa and Mother Aubert? Heartless thing to say, especially as a good proportion of our population never will have been parents.

           Just looked it up on Google! https://www.psychologytoday.com/nz/blog/living-single/202107/the-truth-about-people-who-remain-childfree

           "More than one-quarter of the adults (27 percent) were childfree. More than half of the adults were parents (54 percent). Another 12 percent planned to have biological or adopted children in the future. The remaining 8 percent were childless—they didn't have children, but they wish they could."
4. Hunter Thompson II 4

   6 September 2023 at 8:52 am

   We are told that Jacinda Ardern is to write a book about leadership.

   Just one problem: Dan Carter has got his book out ahead of hers (see "The Art of Winning: Lessons in Leadership, Purpose and Potential", released in July).

   And Carter knew how to win, of course.
   • Blazer 4.1

     6 September 2023 at 9:24 am

     I know Ardern was the P.M of NZ,thats leadership.

     Not sure if Carter even captained the AB's.He was a brilliant rugby player,no doubt.
   • James Simpson 4.2

     6 September 2023 at 11:39 am

     She won. Twice. Never lost.
     • gsays 4.2.1

       6 September 2023 at 12:24 pm

       Tell that to Nikki Kaye.

       “Ardern and Kaye have been political rivals for years.

       They ran against each other in Auckland Central in 2011 and 2014 – Kaye winning both times.”
       https://www.odt.co.nz/star-news/star-national/i-wish-her-all-best-arderns-tribute-nikki-kaye
       • Bearded Git 4.2.1.1

         6 September 2023 at 1:59 pm

         As you well know gsays, winning an electorate is largely about the prevailing mood in the country and the political make up of the electorate-it is never ever a straight fight between two people.

         I did so enjoy Chloe taking out Akl Central at the last election though
         • Mike the Lefty 4.2.1.1.1

           6 September 2023 at 5:22 pm

           Yeah, Chloe is one Green MP who seems to keep a lot better grounded than some of her colleagues. Says what she thinks and is smart in a low-key style.

           Martyn Bradbury thinks Chloe is the best thing since sliced bread.
   • scotty 4.3

     6 September 2023 at 1:55 pm

     Winner on the rugby field .

     Not so much in business ,

     https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/3977187/Last-of-Carters-Gas-fashion-stores-closes-leaving-1m-debt

     Also backed a failed NFT 'business' last year .
5. SPC 5

   6 September 2023 at 9:16 am

   The mean Canadians find out that unilever/unilateral interpreting of the rules the way they want is not without arbitration/legal clarification.

   New Zealand has just won a major trade dispute with Canada over restrictions on diary goods ….

   … a CPTPP panel has publishing a ruling this morning in New Zealand's favour.

   Hundreds of millions of potential trade for New Zealand dairy diary exporters was being restricted by Canada through a system of import tariffs and quotas, in breach of CPTPP rules, the panel determined.

   Canada will now have to comply with the ruling to allow for diary imports, including from New Zealand.

   The dispute has been a serious undertaking by the Government – Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern raised the issue in a face-to-face meeting with Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau

   Reporting by Thomas ManchMnach

   Some should take note.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300964832/election-2023-live-new-zealand-wins-trade-dispute-with-canada
   • AB 5.1

     6 September 2023 at 9:32 am

     Clearly the Canadians weren't 'pretty solid' in their interpretation of the agreement. 'Pretty solid' seems like a close cousin of 'pretty legal'. It does look like a fair chunk of the blokey part of the electorate finds over-confident, ignorant, opinionated chest-puffing to be pretty appealing though. Probably because it matches their own default methods for navigating the world.
   • Francesca 5.2

     6 September 2023 at 10:19 am

     So was this ruling undertaken by one of those secret arbitration panels we all opposed during TPPA protests

     Was Canada trying to protect its own farmers?

     Or was there some other reason?
   • Belladonna 5.3

     6 September 2023 at 10:25 am

     Amazing, I didn't realize that NZ had a significant "diary" export business to Canada.
     Must be all of those trees we grow….. /sarc/
   • Bearded Git 5.4

     6 September 2023 at 2:02 pm

     I wouldn't have thought that the trade in "diary" goods was a major part of NZ's economy.
6. Belladonna 6

   6 September 2023 at 10:37 am

   I enjoyed the … robust … exchange of views at the Taxpayers Union debate last night.

   Hosted (I won't say moderated) by Martyn Bradbury and Damien Grant.

   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/09/election-2023-willie-jackson-david-seymour-trade-barbs-over-justice-policies.html

   While I doubt any views will have been changed in the course of the evening – it was interesting to see the clash of views.
   • Mike the Lefty 6.1

     6 September 2023 at 10:52 am

     It wasn't until nearly the end of the article that you knew that National's Paul Goldsmith was there as well.

     That guy is such a non-entity that if he failed to show up for his own birthday party nobody would notice.
   • gsays 6.2

     6 September 2023 at 12:32 pm

     I managed about 3/4 of an hour.

     Unfortunately the most flippant came across the best while the earnest two (Greens and NZ 1st) were less convincing. Hands down Seymour appeared the most on to it. He was what made me turn it off, his crime rhetoric.
     • Belladonna 6.2.1

       6 September 2023 at 12:42 pm

       I thought Willie Jackson did quite well (especially with a reasonably hostile audience – audible heckling). Jenny Marcroft was quite simply outweighted in the debate.
       • gsays 6.2.1.1

         6 September 2023 at 5:50 pm

         Jeez, you are a kinder judge than I. He has been told off by his boss for his outburst about National getting rid of the minimum wage then when challenged said they would lower it.

         I agree it was surprisingly hostile towards Labour.
         • Bearded Git 6.2.1.1.1

           6 September 2023 at 7:26 pm

           Get the facts right gsays.

           Hipkins did say Jackson got the "getting rid of MW" wrong, but said that Jackson himself admitted this during the debate.

           Hipkins said Jackson was right about ACT's policy being to reduce the MW because it's policy is to freeze it which when inflation is taken into account is a reduction.
           • gsays 6.2.1.1.1.1

             6 September 2023 at 9:23 pm

             I was describing what I saw.

             You are talking about what Hipkins said about it.
7. Chris 7

   6 September 2023 at 12:41 pm

   Got an email today from Nicola Willis complaining Labour spent billions in 6 years with little to show for it. Wonder what they would've said if Labour had let all businesses go to the wall over Covid instead of propping them up with unprecedented levels of welfare payments.

   "Hi Chris,

   Yesterday Chris Hipkins said that New Zealand's "economic fundamentals are in good shape."

   What a shocker.

   Despite Hipkins' assertion about New Zealand's economic fundamentals, the reality is very different.

   After six years of wasting billions of extra dollars with little to show for it, New Zealand's economy has fallen into recession.

   There are Kiwis struggling to pay their bills every single day and whose mortgages are simply becoming too much to handle.

   Inflation is running at 6% driving a prolonged cost of living crisis. Wages aren’t keeping up with inflation and mortgage repayments are too much for many Kiwis to handle

   New Zealand is the only country in the Asia-Pacific region in recession.

   IMF forecasts indicate we’ll have one of the worst economic growth rates in the world next year – putting jobs and incomes at risk.

   Every Kiwi in the country knows these are not sound economic fundamentals, except apparently Chris Hipkins who has shown just how out of touch he is with the lives of every day Kiwis.

   New Zealanders deserve competent economic management.

   This election the choice is clear – a strong, stable National-led Government that will rebuild the economy to reduce the cost of living and help Kiwis get ahead, including with well-deserved tax relief for the squeezed middle.

   Or three more years of a high taxing, high spending Labour-led government that is out of touch with reality and lacks the plans and ideas needed to address the issues facing New Zealanders.

   Let’s get our country back on track.

   Nicola Willis
   National Party Deputy Leader and Spokesperson for Finance"
   • satty 7.1

     6 September 2023 at 3:51 pm

     Labour… the Horror, I tell ya

     Here we go (Stuff – Election 2023 live stream):

     He [Our PM] also outlined some economic headlines:

     Under Labour

     • The economy is 6.7% larger than before Covid. Since the depths of the Covid recession, New Zealand’s economy has grown by 10.2% compared to 8.8% for Australia, 7.6% for the US, 7.1% for the Euro Area and 6.1% for the UK, according to the IMF.
     • Unemployment below 4% for eight consecutive quarters
     • Strong Government finances: Affirmed last week by Fitch. Net debt of 18.9% of GDP, below Australia, the US, and the UK according to the IMF.
     • Seven trade agreements singed or upgraded; FTAs now cover almost three quarters of New Zealand’s export.
     • Chris 7.1.1

       6 September 2023 at 4:36 pm

       I like this from Willis:

       "Wages aren’t keeping up with inflation and mortgage repayments are too much for many Kiwis to handle"

       Pure fcuking gold.
       • satty 7.1.1.1

         6 September 2023 at 5:26 pm

         Hahaha… good one. She really said that? It's a little bit like Australia in the last year where the LNP suddenly finds a voice for the "not so well off" after screwing them for years, every year (ROBODEBT anyone?).

         It's always a little hypothetical to look back and imagine what would have happened with another party in government. But two things I'm relatively certain of:

         • The minimum wage today would be lower under National / Act and
         • The living wage today would be lower under National / Act

         With similar inflation / mortgage figures.

         Wasn't it Bill English who admitted the National Party wants to keep wages low?
       • Bearded Git 7.1.1.2

         6 September 2023 at 7:27 pm

         No contradiction there then.
8. joe90 8

   6 September 2023 at 12:56 pm

   Reckless spending..

   /

   Edward Miller

   @labourcartel

   The idea this Govt is more wasteful than others is not supported by evidence. Govts spend more in crisis periods, and the Sixth Labour Govt has faced a few expensive ones. Total Govt spending hit 48.1% of GDP in 2011 under a National Govt with (C&S from Act, UF and TPM).

   
   https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F5TEeonbMAAHF8M?format=png&name=small

   https://twitter.com/labourcartel/status/1699200448639684716
9. joe90 9

   6 September 2023 at 1:16 pm

   And Scotty makes four.

   https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/09/06/fourth-act-candidate-resigns-in-lead-up-to-election/
   • Bearded Git 9.1

     6 September 2023 at 2:14 pm

     I shared that to FB Joe. It is going to be a sad day if Seymour and his fellow nutters form part of the next government.
10. Karl Sinclair 10

    6 September 2023 at 1:25 pm

    Just wondering… are posts being blocked on this site due to political affiliation?

    [lprent: Typically you’ll be stuck in moderation if the system hasn’t seen you before under your current ‘e-mail’. You have to have one comment approved by a moderator under a e-mail or handle before further comments appear automatically. That reduces the amount of spam we have to clean up.

    Or you do certain behaviors like having too many links, or words and phrases that look like trolling to the automatic mechanisms. Again a spam reduction technique.

    Or a moderator picked out some previous bad behavior under either you current alias or a previous one and put you into moderation. Read the policy if you wish to avoid that. Basically say something that makes it appear that you thought about what you were saying and explain why. Don’t be a dimwitted parrot – because we consider that to be trolling spam.

    In this case it is the first because you’re using different e-mail handles. Pretty obvious if you look at your previous comments in search. The gravators change frequently.

    https://thestandard.org.nz/search/%40author+%22Karl+Sinclair%22/?search_comments=true&search_posts=true&search_sortby=date

    I suggest that stop being such a dickhead and just stick to a single ‘e-mail’. Don’t whine to the moderators because you are too irresponsible to control your own behaviour. ]
    • Incognito 10.1

      6 September 2023 at 4:16 pm

      You’ve been in Pre-Moderation for almost a month (see https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-11-08-2023/#comment-1963798). You haven’t responded and continued making unnecessary work for the Mods here, also by including too many links. This and the piss-poor quality of your comments suggests that you’re heading for the Exit. I’d suggest you respond to the outstanding Mod note and lift your game if you wish to keep your commenting privilege here – pissing off Mods & SYSOP is not smart.
11. Karl Sinclair 11

    6 September 2023 at 1:50 pm

    Kiwis are meant to be straight up no bs people…What the hell has happened to us…1984 protocols!

    This is sadly why I’m ditching labour. Playing Orwellian semantics it’s not ok…. (Be straight up)

    https://x.com/charliekirk11/status/1698860930644504790?s=46&t=Mb3vWtlQ9iVITzFN3xvWAQ

    “Unbelievable.

    “New Zealand's Prime Minister Chris Hipkins has the audacity to claim his government never mandated vaccines:

    “In terms of the vaccine mandates, I acknowledge that it was a challenging time for people but they ultimately made their own choices. There was no compulsory vaccination. People made their own choices.”

    Hipkins was the country's minister when New Zealand instituted mandatory vaccinations for health workers, military, teachers, university students, police officers, travel, many sports, and small businesses.”

    Definition coercion

    the use of force to persuade someone to do something that they are unwilling to do:

    He claimed the police had used coercion, threats, and promises to obtain the statement illegally.

    Check out also the Canadian Government’s Justin T bs

    https://youtu.be/gS2OeHbO1Yk?si=Sxrz015CZIbGaeHG

    [lprent: I also trashed your 2-3 previous versions of this comment. Moderators will get around to freeing up comments in moderation when they get some time.

    You also left more than 10 links in the comment. This is a automatic moderation as well because it is a astroturfing technique beloved by dumbarse machines and parrots. While you’re mostly astroturfing a dictionary, it still looks like astroturfing which I disapprove of. You may notice that don’t run any other kinds of advertising on the site. Why should we run yours?

    I count two small paragraphs that appear to be your own words (maybe). So I’ve damaged all links.

    Use no more than about 2-3 links in comment in future, and write about why people should click into them rather than leaving meaningless clickbait comeons that read like a pimp in front of New Orleans brothel.

    Otherwise I’ll start assuming that you’re just a stupid parrot or a autobot and act accordingly. ]
    • lprent 11.1

      6 September 2023 at 3:04 pm

      They weren’t coercive measures. They were public health measures exactly like stopping people crapping on a footpath, street, public place, or into a waterway used for drinking water. Or for that matter, on the floor in a office.

      Do you approve of people crapping street? If so, could you please explain why?

      Similarly restricting people with potentially carrying a notifiable disease from entering an office is no different from requiring that people don’t crap on the floor in a workspace. Both are health risks to the other people in the same location. So we have laws and regulations about health orders to minimize the spread of disease.

      They don’t involve coercion as in dragging people away and locking them up. We do have those as well. But they were used in the first part of the lockdowns before we had widespread vaccines and medical treatments, and at the border. Again to slow the spread of the disease the Director of Health ordered most places to be closed and restrictions on travel. Worked too.

      The rules about masking and unvaccinated after vaccines became widespread weren’t so much the government as the property owners and managers, employers, retailers could be charged if they allowed violations of a health order. Now that does include the government as a property owner, manager, funder and employer of most health facilities, all military, most teachers, all universities, and all police officers. They are just as bound by health orders as anyone else. The Director of Health who issues those orders is just as bound by the legislation. They are required to act in certain ways under pandemic or epidemic situations.

      Frankly you’re an idiot if you haven’t read the relevant legislation. Which as far as I can tell you have not.

      The choice of being liable to the consequences of enabling behavior that violates those health orders is left to businesses large and small and organizations. Their response was usually to conform, because the alternative would have been for the health ministry to direct the police to prosecute those organisations.

      Now personally I would be all in favour of repealing those restrictions from the health and pandemic response acts /sarc. Provided they also repealed the restrictions on other citizens about beating disease carriers to prevent them from entering our public and work spaces. Shutting them in ghettos. Lynchings. Because that used to be the standard behavior during pandemics during pre-vaccine history. The health legislation is a tradeoff between two forms of ‘freedom’

      I would have had a murderous response to having unvaccinated, unmasked medical staff while I was in hospital for emergency care during the lockdown. If not to the individuals, then certainly to those who employed them to endanger me. It is exactly the same degree of reckless behavior as having a medical people do child births with dirty hands.

      The ‘coercion’ in the health laws is two way process. You should be extremely wary of unleashing the freedom to remove perceived existential threats in a free manner.

      But I guess you just like crapping out bacteria and virus loads wherever you like eh?

      Really I suspect that you are simply a selfish arsehole crapping on this site probably as you express your ‘freedom’ to defecate in the street in real life.
      • francesca 11.1.1

        6 September 2023 at 3:51 pm

        Your site so you can be as unpleasant as you like

        There must be a way to get your message across without playground bullying.A smart fellow like you would have many resources at hand

        I can only assume you enjoy throwing your weight around

        Anyone else would be chucked out for starting a "flame war"

        I do realize this is a sackable offense speaking out and I'll take whatever punishment happily
        • SPC 11.1.1.1

          6 September 2023 at 3:59 pm

          KS has been ditching Labour again and again via posts on this site …. This is why … who on the left follows Charlie Kirk?
          • francesca 11.1.1.1.1

            6 September 2023 at 4:35 pm

            Yes I appreciate that SPC
            I;m not necessarily backing KS,just wishing for a bit more civility in life .We don’t always agree for instance ,but you never descend to ugly emotive language or abuse
            Then again you don’t have a privileged position here
            • lprent 11.1.1.1.1.1

              8 September 2023 at 11:40 pm

              This is how I look at it…

              1. After being on social networks since 1980 while I was using the Waikato uni internal messaging. Since then I have been on local and global BBSes, usenet, blogs, work networks, and the current social media. It has always been my opinion that 'civility' is vastly overrated on social media.
              2. The pattern of people on social media who call for civility are usually that don't have a history of using sites and haven't seen exactly how they deteriorate from trolls uninterested in discussion using them as point scoring toilet.
              3. Or are trolls who are uninterested in discussion and long on wanting to express their opinions without dealing with responses. They use it as an victim excuse to avoid discussion on a topic that they raised. As student of online behaviour it is a pattern that comes up over and over again.
              4. You may not agree with that assessment. I simply don't care because, as usual, you haven't provided any argument to back your ill-informed opinion. You haven't explained the origin of the experience that forms your opinion. Haven't explained why you think more civility is a good idea. Nor have you suggested any other strategies for dealing with the obnoxious who are less interested in listening to other than they are in crapping on a 'free' pavement without dealing with the consequences. (this analogy may be a somewhat too subtle for you as you don't appear to have picked up on why I specifically used it in responding to KS).
              5. There must be a way to get your message across without playground bullying. A smart fellow like you would have many resources at hand

                 Yes there are many. But the absolute best one for dealing with someone repeating childish and offensive behaviour on a social site is to personally tear one of their comments apart in public and make it about them and their behaviour. That tends to be memorable to them even as they try to sneer at it. It makes them cautious about repeating similar online behaviour. It is a step that is less destructive of their ability to comment and usually less work for a moderators long term than alternatives.

              6. KS came to my attention this time because they made a complaint that I read while I was doing a moderation sweep. They had 4 comments in auto-moderation. 3 were duplicated astroturfs and the other one was a victim statement from a incompetent troll spammer.

              • They had used a different 'email' yet again.
              • They'd put more than 10 unnecessary links into a comment.
              • It was clearly an attempt to astroturf a spam comment on this site.
              • Claimed victim status when they ran into anti-spam code.
              • Didn't bother to look for alternate explanations.

              Unlike you. I did some work before taking any action.

              • I read their comments in moderation.
              • Looked up their previous comments and several changes in identity.
              • I looked up their previous interactions on the site and found that they had done this kind of behaviour many times before. Not only under this handle and variants of it. But also under other ones. Saw that they had been warned about the behaviour before.
              • Scanned the web and found the same lines parroted across multiple sites by multiple handles.
              • There was no personal opinion or thought in what they said, it was just something that they'd copied. They'd dumped it onsite here to try to get a rise

              Why should I respect or treat with civility someone who has a history of dropping crap comments here, who wastes our time, and who never engages with replies with discussion or argument, but who always either just makes Trumpian proclamations of their own infallibility or the Trumpian persecution and victim statements, and who is apparently puppet of a spam factory.

              So I did a comment that was absolutely bound to offend them personally. I sneered at them. Made references to their real and imaged disgusting behaviour. Wove in an appropriate analogy to their behaviour on this site.

              It succeeded in its intent. As you can see it got an offended response in a way that previous moderation had not. Was almost certainly memorable to KS and will help educate them about how others view them. It will also probably give them bragging rights on Kiwiblog or BFH or whatever echo chamber that they parroted their comment from. It will also discourage them from doing the same behaviour here when they come back under that handle or another.

              That is the role of a sysop on a social site. They are the BOFH and can do things that others cannot do as easily. It takes time and effort to do that effectively – something that you clearly do not understand. It is about a clinical as any other kind of potty training.

              Now perhaps you'd now like to look at your comments, and consider how they would appear to this veteran of social media. I suspect you may have some difficulties with having to look at anything from a perspective other than your own constrained worldview.

              You'll note that aside from a few snarky asides, this comment was 'civil'. It is also probably just as offensive to you as my comment was to KS.

              Consider that it was meant to be and see if you can figure out why.
          • Anne 11.1.1.1.2

            6 September 2023 at 6:32 pm

            Er umm…"dissing"?
            • SPC 11.1.1.1.2.1

              6 September 2023 at 6:40 pm

              This is sadly why I’m ditching labour.

              Playing Orwellian semantics it’s not ok…. (Be straight up)

              Reason No. xyt.
              • Anne …

                6 September 2023 at 7:16 pm

                OK. I didn’t read the KS. comment. Apols.
      • Tabletennis 11.1.2

        8 September 2023 at 2:36 pm

        Lprent- Any chance you could set your setting to English-NZ or English-UK, unless of course you are an American ?
        • lprent 11.1.2.1

          13 September 2023 at 8:19 pm

          Seems to be set to NZ. But I seldom use the dictionary functions, and really don't care what spelling I use. I'm a programmer. So functional legibility and being able to compile /link are about the limits of what I get concerned about whilst writing.

          However I can't see any particular Americanisms in the comment you responded to.

          So I suspect that you should have been born French and taken a job at the Académie Française at the worlds premier idiotic language police (they appear to recruit heavily from the anally retentive). It doesn't really suit English as the premier bastard sticky language of the world.
    • SPC 11.2

      6 September 2023 at 3:13 pm

      You follow Charlie Kirk on X?

      The same stuff floats around on Rebel News … Ani O'Brien reposts that locally and Eva McTin.
    • AB 11.3

      6 September 2023 at 5:05 pm

      There was no forced vaccination. The freedom from forced medical treatment by the state was maintained. However, it was balanced against the freedom of other people to use state-run healthcare facilities in the expectation that they would not be exposed to avoidable (possibly fatal) risks. Why do libertarian nutters not understand that freedom is is dynamic network of reciprocated obligations?
      • Anne 11.3.1

        6 September 2023 at 5:48 pm

        Because being part of a dynamic network of reciprocated obligations is way beyond their ability to comprehend – if I may be so bold.
        • Shanreagh 11.3.1.1

          6 September 2023 at 9:22 pm

          And I'll boldly agree with you Anne.

          We (NZ) had this out at the time about the vaccines. Make your choice but be aware of the consequences of any choice you make. Certain people, many of whom ended up at the protest at Parliament, had great difficulty, as you indicate, understanding this then and the passage of time hasn't improved their understanding.

          Same as any moral dilemma – I am sure those who opposed conscription made the decision not to go to war in the knowledge that there would be consequences.

          It just seems to be recently that we have the notion of consequence-free decisions such as these. I guess another name for it is entitlement. I am not talking about those who physically could not have an injection, allergies, having chemo etc etc. These are the people we were trying to protect by halting the spread so their risk could be lessened.
          • Anne 11.3.1.1.1

            7 September 2023 at 10:40 am

            I am not talking about those who physically could not have an injection, allergies, having chemo etc etc.

            It became obligatory for anyone who tried to stand -up to the naysayers (remember Rosemary McDonald) to finish up with this proviso because if we didn't, we were accused by said naysayers of "not caring about the immuno compromised" when the opposite was true.
            • Shanreagh 11.3.1.1.1.1

              7 September 2023 at 11:20 am

              Yes old habits die hard.

              One of my friends was immuno compromised at the time and wanted to have an injection/protection and the lengths that her medical people went to to make sure she was able to have protection. She had access to the alternative and had several boosters before we were being urged to have ours. So immuno compromised plus wanting to be protected did not mean a person could not have the injection.

              I think some home 'Drs' and conspiracy theorists made out that just because you were immuno compromised or allergic you couldn't be protected.

              Now they seem to be rerunning the force/coercion argument instead of the choice argument. I know if I had felt strongly about the vaccination I would have chosen not to and accepted any consequences of my decisions including whether I kept my job.
12. newsense 12

    6 September 2023 at 3:36 pm

    Wonder if the Greens had ever considered approaching Simon Upton to get back into politics for them?

    No point heckling either Luxon or Chippy as they have minimal environmental action credibility.

    Should have stood for the Greens and tried to take teal votes from the Nats.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/497384/next-prime-minister-must-lead-emissions-cuts-simon-upton-report
    • Ad 12.1

      6 September 2023 at 4:00 pm

      If National get in, Upton should remain exactly where he is.

      As the Minister who got the RMA through, and with big EU specialist credentials, when Upton speaks National listen. Believe it or not there are earnest blue-greens in there.

      Upton will be particularly important if Act get the Environment portfolio and really start burning regulations.
      • newsense 12.1.1

        7 September 2023 at 12:34 am

        Statistically, yes. As there were pacifists and those who cared for the plight of the working class Tommy amongst the officers at Passchendaele. And there wouldn’t have been those without the Victorian fashion for younger daughters and 4th sons to have a care for charity and the moral education of the less seemly parts of town.

        But action didn’t happen until the Tories were turfed out. And here the Tories are those denialists and shoe draggers of all colours of rosette. Yep, right there if the Nats win. Sure.

        I’m living in some kind of retconable world where he could drop in at 10 on the list and perhaps even pick up a teal seat somewhere. And really ramp up the electoral urgency for climate action.

        C and Cs climate credentials leave a lot to be desired.

        And f- me I hadn’t considered a world where those to the right of groundswell get any input into this…The fire at those ‘protests’ is their literal platform.

        Don’t worry Ad, Chippy is a riding into town. It’s far from over just yet. Just watching how much the TPU polls continue to say exactly what the Nats want…
13. SPC 13

    6 September 2023 at 4:05 pm

    One Voice confronts the reality of the Oz electorate.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-66470376

    Meanwhile here in New Zealand, Peters says NZF would withdraw from UNDRIP.
14. bwaghorn 14

    6 September 2023 at 4:59 pm

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/132885845/carbon-credit-auction-fails-again-depriving-treasury-of-about-900-million

    Carbin credit scheme failure,

    Nationals ghost money ain't gonna materialize!! For tax cuts.
    • Nic the NZer 14.1

      6 September 2023 at 7:15 pm

      This is a positive sign for future lowering of NZ emissions. Apparently might make the Treasury forecast off by $900 million but really who cares. The budget typically misses by a few billion within 6 month anyway.
15. Joe90 15

    6 September 2023 at 5:30 pm

    Thanks, Labour.

    .

    I’ve been receiving an escalating stream of panicked emails from people telling me their longtime physician was retiring, was no longer taking their insurance or had gone concierge and would no longer see them unless they ponied up a hefty annual fee. They said they couldn’t find another primary-care doctor who could take them on or who offered a new-patient appointment sooner than months away.

    Their individual stories reflect a larger reality: American physicians have been abandoning traditional primary-care practice — internal and family medicine — in large numbers. Those who remain are working fewer hours. And fewer medical students are choosing a field that once attracted some of the best and brightest because of its diagnostic challenges and the emotional gratification of deep relationships with patients.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/09/05/lack-primary-care-tipping-point/

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