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Open mike 06/11/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, November 6th, 2019 - 103 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

103 comments on “Open mike 06/11/2019”

  1. Adrian Thornton 1

    RNZ Morning Report this morning

    Bridges defends new recruit Christopher Luxon

    The National Party has released a discussion document asking if benefits to solo mothers who refuse to vaccinate should be cut, but Mr Luxon's suggestion it go further to working for families is new….but apparently worth getting feedback from average kiwi's on..

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018720911/bridges-defends-new-recruit-christopher-luxon

    The interview was as bad and as low brow, dumd and stupid as you could imagine, but it reminded me of a bit from this Think Big interview with Slavoj Žižek at about 10:30 into it…

    • greywarshark 1.1

      Great clip Adrian.    He spells it out.   I think I got a fairly clear view before I started watching and listening to him (you can be in two minds sometimes), but he is right.    We need to look at outcomes, without any labelling of left or right, any naming of political pathway, and what we are seeing is an unacceptable slide into nimbyism, selfishness, callousness, and obsession. There are fantasy views of what is going on that people shine on any unattractive facade, like using the world as a backscreen for a giant epic.

      I think he is missing a point about local government and so on;   I think that people need to wake up and take some responsibility for their local area, and come together with other local areas to form a viable plan for good systems and outcomes.    This would run in parallel with the national and international stuff which we have so little input or control over.   Too much talk about how things should be is where the activity goes, too little actual intelligent and far-seeing work.    There needs to be fast decision-making, enabling things to be done as pilots within an agreed framework.

      Our world has come to a crossroads.    We can't drag ourselves along the same route with politicians spitting venom at each other, and hate for a majority of us while being paid large salaries to prevent anything happening that would help those most in need.   They are like wearing leg irons, and even those wil goodwill are too heavy for us to move far. We are in need of new, good laws and practices that take us into the future, but the past want to hold onto their prize won in the blood and vileness of World War 2.   

      It is important for people who want to be both kind and practical to find each other, because nothing worthwhile is going to come from the rest of the democrats who want to leave the important stuff for the end of the meeting agenda;  someone quoted once that if you wanted agreement at an average committee meeting to  develop a nuclear bomb it should be a bland heading at the end of the agenda, after  a discussion on whether the garden shed should be repositioned in a better spot where it would be over the cricket crease. 

      They will prefer to follow inadequate policies, or watch sport or let off firecrackers, which include the word that is likely to be the death knell of many!   We will have so many complaints when they are banned.   And we need to do it right away so there isn't another full Guy Fawkes, though there will be the regular letting them off individually and in groups on occasions for years.  Perhaps there is a connection with our planet's birth called the Big Bang,  and males of all ages carry a genetic memory!

  2. Pat 2

    "The study, based on 40 years of data on a range of measures, says governments are failing to address the crisis.

    Without deep and lasting changes, the world is facing "untold human suffering" the study says."

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/402621/climate-scientists-warn-of-untold-suffering-without-major-changes

    • Sabine 2.1

      They say " Without deep and lasting changes, the world is facing "untold human suffering" the study says."

       

      what they shoud say however is this " 

      Without deep and lasting changes, the poor of this world are facing untold human suffering:" the study says.  (and one could argue that they are already doing so).

      The rich will be fine until the very end. 

      • Pat 2.1.1

        while the 'poor' (currently) will (and are) suffering the most it is important to understand that the situation is not static and that it will change…and not slowly.

        The 'wealthy' will not be immune until the very end as that wealth relies on interdependent systems to be of use.

      • ianmac 2.1.2

        Yep. With money they could buy into the high ground, buy in scarce food and buy security when faced with rebellion.

        Mind you money might become worthless.

        • Sabine 2.1.2.1

          money – stones, pebbles, shells, gold, shiny trinkets, sex, food, cigarettes etc will always exist. 

          Some women i know had great stories about payment and money options in germanyjust after the war and before the monetary reform in 1948. Prostitution- or fraternazation – got you food, cigarettes, booze etc etc etc. And these three things paid for everything else. 

          in a world without food, the last remaining body to be eaten is currency – and i bet you a dollar that the one eating will be people like Jarvanka (and their ilk and those like them) and the one being eaten is just some schmuck of the street who will not be missed by anyone. . 

        • Pat 2.1.2.2

          where is that money?…how do they access it?..as said the functioning systems have to remain operable for it to be of use…stranded assets cant be sold ….banks and sharemarkets collapse….distribution networks are easily disrupted (assuming theres something to distribute)…if the poor are unable to cope, who does the work?

          Card houses dont slowly disintegrate…they collapse, and we have built one very unstable global house of cards

           

          • Sabine 2.1.2.2.1

            come on, you are not telling me you don't see how cigarettes, booze and food, sex, life stock ( animals / human)  can be used at currency?  I have one nubile 14 year old slave to sell for 5 cows and a horse ( i think in the bible they might even speak of that type of transaction often disguised on the idea of 'marriage / dowry/brideprice etc) 

            I pointed to Germany in the years of 1945 – 1948  in which the country was demonstrably destroyed, several families often shared one flat in fairly bombed out houses (each family a room, something that was also done in England / Holland / Italy / etc during the war), power, water supply was intermittently and ' the Reichsmark aka money' had no value. Guess what, you could pick potatoes at the farm and as payment you took home a bag of potatoes. You could sell yourself for some fags from the Ami's and use these to pay for goods at hte black market. Or like my mother did as a child with her siblings, pick cigarettes butts of the floor, take them home, clean them up and re-roll them for the elders in the family to smoke. 

            I find it really funny that in your doom/gloom scenario you leave out the fact that people are a. resilient and will to some degree adapt, b. that people trade and even if go far back in time have gone to great lenght and distances to bring goods to their people, c. there will always be a ruling class i.e. the strongest/fittest/  will survive. You can sell an hour  or several of sex for a pound of bacon, you can then sell one half pound of bacon for flour, eggs, butter, and make bread, sell that for a week of rent in a hovel, etc etc etc. In fact some people already live life like that. We already have that in todays society, it is called survival sex and its a standard thing to do when homeless – especially when young and homeless. 

            As for work? ;Lol, the telephone answer drones of today will be meat. so will be most of the pencil pushers that serve no other reason then create paperwork that again serves no purpose other then billing you the customer out of your money. The ones that can create value with their hands, that can grow food, that can build, mend, fix, heal, etc will be however in great demand .

            And yes, the ones with 'money' will be the last ones to diet.  

            • Pat 2.1.2.2.1.1

              and thats your description of 'fine'?

              • Sabine

                yes. it is. 

                Cause this is what humans do, we build, then we destroy and kill and then we will build again. 

                The world is changing, and we are not ….that is our biggest issue. If we would look a the changes to come and do something – rather then insist in doing a. nothing, or b. just something to pretend to be doing something – that would help this transition to a planet that will be hotter, more hostile etc we would probably end up fine. 

                But we are not doing this. 

                This is like parking in an illegal park and then complaining about the ticket one gets. Its not hte fault of the parking warden that the car was parked illegally so why blame him/her for the ticket. 

                And currently that is the collective of this planet, continuing to park illegally while moaning about parking tickets. When people collectively wake up to the realisation that they are too poor for parking tickets they will look for an alternative that works better but not a moment before. 

                • Pat

                  so the wealthy will sell themselves and their children for some flour or bacon (as long as there remains some) and squat in an unserviced building  (no power or running water) and theyre 'fine'…. I guess our interpretations of the word fine are at odds….Syria , Somalia and the like must be holiday resorts.

                  • Sabine

                    no, just to clarify as your reading comprehension is not functioning properly today

                     

                    your children will be sold as meat to those that will be 'rich' when the endtimes of which you are so afraid of come to pass.  Unless your decendency is the 'global elite of future times' then they get to buy someones children for what ever is needed in order to survive. 

                    A bit like this .https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTTKCDEIv7aY2tfbfm25ES8j14kZ1CBLlJzDHSIMLmhOqPiaVEI&s

                    and that was roughly about a hundred years ago. 

                    or here a bit more recent 



                     

                    🙂 See how easy that was.  But i guess being scared of the bogey man and times without money is just so us. 

                     

                    • Pat

                      My comprehension fine and dont dispute any of that has happened or will happen again….my dispute is with your position that the 

                      "The rich will be fine until the very end. "

                      You appear to miss the point the rich are only so as long as the current paradigm exists…remove the current paradigm (as CC will) and their wealth disappears

                    • Sabine

                      and again you seem to lack any imagination that 'money' as you think it is and will be can be replaced by anything that someone places value on.  Or our 'current paradigm". 

                      You can be the poorest bloke in the universe but if someone wanted to buy your daughter for what is 'money' you could sell her 🙂 And someone would have the 'money' to buy her. And that money may be printed paper, or it may be a bag of potatoes a cow and a goat or simply your life. 

                      And he / she who has many goats and camels and water and what ever can be considered desirable  will be considered rich. 

                      And yes, the rich of today, will have land, they will have access to water on that land, they will be able to plant/grow etc etc etc. 

                      The world will not end with us, as much as the world did not end in the thirty year war, or during ww 2 or such. The world will change, there will be rich there will be poor, and chances are that when that times comes you and i are both dead and thus among the lucky ones. 

                      Maybe you need to watch some more of the dystopian movies that are to understand that money / current paradigm is what ever has value to the many (water, food, imo) and that can then used for trading and thus rich/poor will again and still exist. 

                      So yes, the rich will be fine until the end, and the end will be much earlier for the poor then the rich.  I suggest that you read the Stark from Ben Elton, he says things so much better then I. 

        • Wensleydale 2.1.2.3

          Good luck ensuring the loyalty of that 'security' when the shit really hits the fan. People tend to eat each other when things get really grim, and a pantry full of plump, pampered rich folk would likely prove irresistible.

          • David Mac 2.1.2.3.1

            I think Sabine is right. Climate change won't be the end of the rich, it will be the beginning of the Acme Sea Wall Corporation.

            • McFlock 2.1.2.3.1.1

              pretty much.

              Some rich will get et, sure. But warlords arising in a time of strife are just another type of rich folk, and then they get called "knight" and "duke" and "king", and hundreds of years later their descendants are conventional rich folk. And they own guns and know where the food stores are buried, so people do what they say in times of strife, and if things get really bad they transition into a barter/thug economy and become warlords…

            • greywarshark 2.1.2.3.1.2

              The grisly film Delicatessen with touches of the ironic, is a most unusual 1991 French production.   Post-apocalyptic is what it is called.   Getting some meat means knowing someone has been murdered.    Who knows what humans would end up doing if we don't find a way to build a lasting rational society with ethics which will apply to all.

              (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avuovbgoyxU

      • greywarshark 2.1.3

        The rich will find before the end that they are not fine.    We have seen how people go mad when they are corrupted, letting the poor die and animals and nature die, will corrupt them absolutely and the fine and wonderful souls of men, women and animals will all shrink.  

        People get desperate for some order, communion with other people with soul, and purpose in life that one person locked up in jail and in isolation wrote that watching the ants and cockroaches kept him sane.

  3. adam 3

    The war on drugs is so much fun when it kills young female leaders by it's armed hard right proxies. 

     



  4. Adrian Thornton 4

    It has been well established that the so called "war on drugs" was a catastrophic failure, but large segments of the right, even in this country still push it or something similar as a legitimate action for the state to pursue.  

    Bridges is now quite obviously going for the right wing 'populist' lane, I have noticed that his rhetoric has become more and more confrontational and base over the previous couple of months..and I guess he figures that with his shit poll numbers he hasn't got anything to lose.

    • tc 4.1

      Totally, his replacement is waiting in the Botany wings so he's going all out on the ranty dog whistling.

      This allows the hollowmen to pitch up the 'fresh face/new way' memes when Luxon takes the head of the table.

      CL is a more experienced corporate assassin than shonky so he’s got the calm assured trusting delivery down pat already.

    • Stuart Munro. 4.2

      Note the contrast with Judith, who is carefully downplaying the nasty streak that had her manufacture the title "Crusher", the better to compete with the unlovable Simon and presumably Jacinda.

    • Sabine 4.3

      Mind, while its easy to simply shake the head at the No Mates and No Ideas Party, this is a 'war' that is Labours/Green/NZFirst to loose.

      Currently however it seems that when it comes to a realistic approach to drugs and their usage all we get is fake piety from the Greens _ No Gummibears for you, nothing from Labour, nothing from NZFirst and nothing but bullshit from National. 

      So maybe J.A could do something? Anything? you know, something? 

    • Wensleydale 4.4

      The worse Bridges gets, the more Luxon will seem like a breath of fresh air by comparison, even if he is a religious weirdo. I'm sure it's all part of the 'strategy'.

  5. joe90 5

    A couple of days after Labour questioned Cummings past and its move on, nothing to be seen here.

    Boris Johnson was on Monday night accused of presiding over a cover-up after it emerged that No 10 refused to clear the publication of a potentially incendiary report examining Russian infiltration in British politics, including the Conservative party.

    Downing Street indicated on Monday that it would not allow a 50-page dossier from the intelligence and security committee to be published before the election, prompting a string of complaints over its suppression.

    The committee’s chairman, Dominic Grieve, called the decision “jaw dropping”, saying no reason for the refusal had been given, while Labour and Scottish National party politicians accused No 10 of refusing to recognise the scale of Russian meddling.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/04/no-10-blocks-russia-eu-referendum-report-until-after-election?

    • David Mac 6.1

      1st pic

      "I'll raise your bid for the leadership with 2 free seats in business class, wherever, whenever you want."

      2nd pic

      Turn that smile upside down – Vote National.

  6. marty mars 7

    Idiots – don't they know we have just signed a historic trade deal that will generate lots of profit for our exporters – we are sweeeeeet.

    The world’s people face “untold suffering due to the climate crisis” unless there are major transformations to global society, according to a stark warning from more than 11,000 scientists.

    “We declare clearly and unequivocally that planet Earth is facing a climate emergency,” it states. “To secure a sustainable future, we must change how we live. [This] entails major transformations in the ways our global society functions and interacts with natural ecosystems.”

    There is no time to lose, the scientists say: “The climate crisis has arrived and is accelerating faster than most scientists expected. It is more severe than anticipated, threatening natural ecosystems and the fate of humanity.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/05/climate-crisis-11000-scientists-warn-of-untold-suffering

  7. Herodotus 8

    After reading the fact test on Jacinda Aderns Achievements video. All I can say is great that our govt can spend all this money. But they are 🤬 this up in a big way.

    eg Mental Heath I have a few friends who are observing large stress/anxiety issues with their children – Exam time with the stress that comes along with that. (This also ties in with Mike Kings heroic efforts in mental health.)With all this smile and nod stuff our leaders do when the cameras are on them, how about following this up with how those intended to benefit from their policies can access the services to receive help? See a counsellor – come back in the new year. For 1 of them they have already attempted the most sad response. Still no immediate help available, unless you can pay – then like cancer treatments is immediately available. 

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/117008657/counsellors-unpaid-as-mike-kings-gumboot-fund-runs-out-of-cash

  8. Andre 9

    Oh dear, it seems that testimony from other witnesses has caused a key witness in the Ukraine thing to have " refreshed my recollection about certain conversations." and he felt the need to submit a three-page revision to his previous testimony.

    https://www.salon.com/2019/11/05/gordon-sondland-changes-his-testimony-in-the-impeachment-inquiry-to-acknowledge-a-quid-pro-quo/

    https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/05/politics/gordon-sondland-kurt-volker-transcripts-impeachment-inquiry/index.html

    • Macro 9.1

      Yeah – funny that.

      Sondland told Congress that his memory was "refreshed" after reviewing the opening statements by Bill Taylor, the acting ambassador to Ukraine, and Tim Morrison, a former adviser to Trump on Russian and European affairs. Sondland's addendum also recounted a Sept. 1 meeting in Warsaw where Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky raised his concerns to Mike Pence about the suspension of military aid. Sondland said he believed that withholding the $391 million in security assistance was "ill-advised," but claimed he didn't know "when, why or by whom the aid was suspended." The revelation comes after House committees leading the impeachment inquiry released transcripts of witness testimony by Sondland and Kurt Volker, the former special envoy to Ukraine.

      https://www.politico.com/news/2019/11/05/sondland-reverses-himself-on-ukraine-quid-pro-quo-000318

      I thought lying to Congress was perjury?

      • Andre 9.1.1

        … lying to Congress was perjury?

        It is. But to prove perjury you have to prove lying, which requires proving intent to mislead. So if you can …ahem… proactively "correct the record" ahead of the posse coming looking for you, then it's going to be awfully hard to prove that intent. No matter how obviously you were rumbled before issuing that "correction".

        • alwyn 9.1.1.1

          So that is what Twyford was up to yesterday when he "corrected" an answer to a question.

          He had been caught out lying and he doesn't want to end up before the Privileges Committee.

          • Andre 9.1.1.1.1

            I wouldn't know, I haven't been paying attention to the minutiae of what Twyford has or hasn't said. And I've no idea what that has to do with the topic of this thread, ie testimony about gross abuse of power by the US president.

            But if I had to guess, based on your past behaviour, I'd guess you're making a claim based on completely ignoring context and stretching the meaning of what someone said waaaaaaay beyond what any normal person would understand to be the meaning of what was said. As well as likely pretending that something is monumentally important when in fact it is relatively trivial.

          • Wensleydale 9.1.1.1.2

            Very subtle, Alwyn. Very subtle.

          • David Mac 9.1.1.1.3

            Yeah, there are corrections and corrections.

            "Oh yes, sorry, my mistake, there is an elephant in the room. I should of looked harder."

    • joe90 9.2

      Mr Hoarse is reading the transcript.

      https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1191791814765957120.html

      • Andre 9.2.1

        Oh sweet baby cheeses …

        Unbeknownst to counsel and subsequent to this testimony, it was discovered and reported that the interest in Naftogaz was tied to an alleged scheme by Giuliani’s now indicted pals to make some serious corn off of toppling the straight shooters at Naftogaz. Oops.

  9. I just voted for the Central Lakes Trust on line. It took me less than 2 minutes.

    You simply go to website and put in PIN and Password both of which you receive on the voting paper in the post.

    SO EASY. This has to be the way to go for Council elections.

    • Sabine 10.1

      the council election here in Middle NZ was literally bullshit, they were all indepent, no one had any religious believes before the election – then suddenly they turn pro life (pro forced birth, once born the child is on its own and better own a pair of boots with bootstraps in case pulling up is needed), all want to stop rates increases but all want to invest more into the community but not into social programmes that would address homelessness, mental illness, drug use, prostitution and such – that would be throwing pearls before swine. 

      and thus no one votes – be that for council or government –  cause you would not have a clue who these clowns are and what they want other then maybe a slice of influence for themselves. 

      and btw, this is exactly why the shitshow in the us won, cause he was out and proud with his fucking around, his bullying, his not paying bills or taxes, his stiffing contractors, his stealing of children and loosing them, his racism, his cruelty and his sadism and such, and thus as his voters can attest today, They knew what  they voted for and they liked it.  Maybe this is something people running for public office should try a bit more, be honest and see if it works. 

    • McFlock 10.2

      lol try teaching my mum how to do it.

      • David Mac 10.2.1

        I can't get comfortable with online voting or voting machines. I think it places too much access to influence in the hands of skillful hackers.

        Regardless of how secure, most big heists have a player on the inside.

      • Bearded Git 10.2.2

        David Mac….just can’t see this. Votes are protected by both PIN and Password. Huge penalties could be prescribed for hacking.

        You can compare online with the postal voting system we have now where I know for sure that some people vote on behalf of others. The idea is that online voting is ADDITIONAL to postal voting so many people would vote by post anyway.

        I'm 65 and it was a piece of cake McFlock.

        • McFlock 10.2.2.1

          Additional is good. You might be able to do a web form, many can't.

          Basically, if you want to discuss usability, look to the last census. Not a complete disaster, but still fucks people around and denies us some important data because people didn't imagine putting it online could be a bad thing.

          Hacking is the main problem, though. It doesn't have to be Wheedle-bad design to be hackable, and then nobody has any record of what the original votes were. Unlike paper ballots.

          Fucksake, it's only the choice of who will be in government. It deserves a bit of effort from the voters.

          • Bearded Git 10.2.2.1.1

            Sorry but wrong and wrong and wrong.

            The census was all online-it didn't permit postal responses. It was also much more complicated that voting-a poor comparison.

            You have to make it easy for voters especially young voters who are much more likely to vote online. Democracy is worth the effort of making it easy.

            Hacking is very unlikley to succeed undetected and can be handled by the correct systems and penalties.

            • Andre 10.2.2.1.1.1

              A major difference compared to continuously live systems like banking is that if a problem occurs, the system can be "rolled back" and reconstructed from the last known correct state. Whereas as one-shot systems like voting or the census have to be correct the first time. But the nature of it being one-shot makes it harder to even detect when something is not right – because there's no recent performance history to compare against.

            • McFlock 10.2.2.1.1.2

              No, it also included the traditional door-knockers.

              As for "making it easy", there's the old adage that security is a compromise between safety and ease of use. That's why you probably don't have a three-factor time-delay lock on your front door. But if you have a lot of stuff, you might have a deadbolt as well as a night latch.

              What research have you read that suggests online voting significantly increases voter participation in younger age groups?

              The hackers you detect are the ones who get caught – what about the rest? And you still think penalties matter (take that one up with rawshark).

               

        • David Mac 10.2.2.2

          The John Oliver show before the most recent one, he delved into the US voting machine situation. They do not connect to the internet per se. As Oliver pointed out, doesn't matter, for the sake of a clandestine plot, they're vunerable as.

          Oliver makes light of the fact that his footage shows us how to take control of the motherboard in a voting machine and then footage of stockpiles of unattended, unprotected voting machines waiting to be shipped to the polling booths.

          It's all misguided concerns, the dismissal of fabulous efficient tech…until the Kim.com party wins 82% of the vote.

          • Nic the NZer 10.2.2.2.1

            US electronic voting systems and machines are notoriously poorly managed and insecure. This is probably not an indicative example of the concept being taken seriously.

    • Andre 10.3

      Very little of the security concerns around online voting are about ensuring only legitimate voters actually cast the votes, which is what the mailed PIN and password is about.

      Much of the objection to online voting is the possibility of electronic records getting fraudulently manipulated as they are being created or altered after creation, without leaving a traceable record. There have been enough instances of visibly malfunctioning electronic voting machines overseas that this isn't just a hypothetical. Hence the attraction of the permanent record created by paper ballots.

      • Bearded Git 10.3.1

        But surely Andre systems can be put in place that stop tampering? With huge fines/imprisonment as penalties?

        Isn't this just paranoia?

        • Andre 10.3.1.1

          Ask an actual IT expert. The person running this site, lprent, would be a good start. All the actual IT experts I'm aware of that have expressed an opinion about online voting are strongly opposed to it, for those security reasons. (apart from those connected with companies trying to sell voting software)

        • McFlock 10.3.1.2

          Nope.

          Firstly, penalties are meaningless. State agents are out of jurisdiction, and freelance hackers think they're the smartest guys in the room and won't get caught (often they're correct).

          "Systems can be put in place" is hand-waving. If it's online, it's a vulnerability. Not even banking systems are invulnerable.

           

        • greywarshark 10.3.1.3

          There have been reports of electronic vote tampering in the USA already which have been documented and put on line.   I may have taken a note of the links, haven't time to look for them, but people should start doing as much researching for themselves as they can.    It does take time though.

        • weka 10.3.1.4

          Here's an actual IT expert's opinion on online voting.

          Online voting – no. Try polling booths

          • weka 10.3.1.4.1

            There were lots of IT people on twitter saying no, don't do it, when the online voting issue was being discussed last month.

        • lprent 10.3.1.5

          Isn't this just paranoia?

          Not as far as I am concerned. There are several obvious issues that anyone should be able to understand.. And these don't even cover the hacker issues that I wrote about last time.

          1. Capacity. Just consider what happened with the last census in 2018. Done online. I know of at least 4 computer programmers, including me, who were unable to complete part of the census because the system didn't allow me to save. That was why that census has such major gaps.

            This is a spike issue. All of a sudden a system goes from having virtually no use apart from artificial testing to falling over under real world loads. Happens all of the time in my network programming world. Another example was the live streaming of rugby by spark recently.

            Hell – it has happened on this site in different elections.
             

          2. Frequency. Elections come around about at best every year (presuming that the local councils, power boards and other electoral systems used the same systems – which is not a given).

            So the most frequent analogy used of banking online systems is completely false. Those are systems running all of the time, being tinkered with, updated, and tuned all of the time. There is no comparison between a tuned all-the-time load system with a punctuated system of shortish peak loads (over days or weeks) and long quiesient periods in terms of reliability.
             

          3. Server side technology. The frequency carries a separate issue – technology changes all of the time.

            Nothing faster than networks and operating systems. On average all of these have multiple updates per day. The culmulative total of upgrades is such that every few years it is like testing for a new system

            Assume that because of the punctuated usage, you're going to need some severe recertifications and testing on each usage and virtually all of the perceived cost advantages fall out of the window. 

            You either maintain a single increasingly obsolete system with increasing rare and very expensive developer and system support. This is the model used by voter machines in the US.

            Or you have a massive upfront cost on each usage. Neither strategy lends itself to long term reliability. Because the world keeps discovering exploits all of the time for old systems.
             

          4. Client side technology. FFS – sure there are standards out there. But which generation do you want to support?  It isn't like the government pays for our gear…

            I know of readers on here who use IE 8 on windows XP – something that hasn't been supported since god knows when (about 2010). I have seen people using PPC Macs with Safari – which I seem to remember stopped production in about 2007. One crazy person uses a Sparc workstation with firefox. I even tested that it worked ok earlier this year in a VM for my own curiosity. And I'm only getting a small selection of NZ voters.

            Just think about that for a second. What you are imposing is effectively a property requirement to vote. Or you have to maintain expensive multiple voting systems.

          etc… and as for..

          But surely Andre systems can be put in place that stop tampering? With huge fines/imprisonment as penalties?

          Isn't this just paranoia?

          Who exactly do you think is technically capable in (say) the police force or electoral commission or even the intelligence community to detect and track down these miscreants?

          FFS: The US intelligence community and companies can barely figure out by behaviour which groups were tampering with crucial systems and from what countries they were doing it from. Individuals from another country or even kiwis routed via the net anywhere in the world – even less so. The US capabilities are astronomical compared to compared to anything we have here.

          Not to mention that we'd have to have them accessible to our justice system to even attempt a prosecution. 

          It isn't paranoid. It is just realistic.

           

          • Bearded Git 10.3.1.5.1

            I hesitate to do this, but I pretty much reject all of this LPrent. 

            I think online voting should be given a go at Council level and if it works given a go at the GE.

            If insoluble problems of security are identified by all means dump it, but the chronically low levels of voting and the obvious ease of voting online convince me this is worth the risk. 

        • OnceWasTim 10.3.1.6

          When ATMs were first intoduced into NZ @BeardedGit, the "instigators" – the managers and salesmen (as opposed to the "IT experts") were confident there were "systems put in place"

          Then those instigators soon began wringing their hands and demanding that "something must be done".

          From memory, some of the first ATMs were of the Diebold brand – the people that make voting machines, and hosted by Fletcher Challenge.

          And then later, when managers opted for cheaper brands of ATMs other than IBM ones hosted on an IBM network, and supposedly entirely compatible, little things like leaving a receipt in a slot meant that transactions wouldn't be committed and the books didn't balance. (All "systems had been put in place").

          Voting is far more important as far as I'm concerned than banks not fessing up to some of their losses due to fraudulent activity

  10. tc 11

    I see more fires caused by Guy Fawkes Fireworks. Oz banned them decades ago when will be stop this unecessary destruction and protect people from themselves.

    I watched some 'men' firing skyrockets over an old peoples home, when challenged they replied 'it's perfectly legal'…..see the problem here ?

     

    • joe90 11.1

      After years of terrified animals, sulphurous stenches and nervous waits with the hose at hand, our fireworks mad neighbours have sold up and buggered off.

      Bliss.

    • Tiger Mountain 11.2

      Well, lighting fireworks and burning shit down is a human right for all truly “manly men”…except where people do something about it.

      An example: in the Far North on Karikari Peninsula, fireworks were a problem for years with even District Council total fire bans not impressing those that stock piled fireworks for occasions other than Nov. 5, nor controlled displays by the local Fire station. So for the last two years courtesy of the Northland Regional Council, a binding Firework Ban with penalties was instituted, and has worked pretty well so far because the overwhelming majority of residents not only support it, but help the Firefighters enforce it!

    • Wensleydale 11.3

      I was filling the car at the gas station last night while fireworks were whizzing gaily overhead. Clutching the dispenser in white-knuckled hands, I was thinking "Come on, damn you, pump faster!" I hate Guy Fawkes, and so does my cat.

      • Anne 11.3.1

        Close all the windows, pull the curtains, turn the TV on loud even if you're not watching and the cat will think all the cracks and bangs are coming out of the TV. Operation Normal. 

        • David Mac 11.3.1.1

          Ha yeah Anne, I Spotified 4 loud hours of the history of Glam Rock. Holly is accustomed to that environment and was none the wiser. Flashes behind the curtains and T-Rex belong together.

          When I was 12, I adored the 5th of November. I miss being excited by fireworks. Must be a bit like a narcotics habit, endure a protracted addiction chasing a buzz as tasty as the first. My Mum loved them to the day she died. Catherine Wheels, they reminded her of galaxies.

          It's probably time we grew up and found a way to get that fireworks buzz without burning family homes down.

          I wonder if the NZ Navy out of Devonport could take the helm of something special over the Waitemata. A big co-ordinated display would be a hell teamwork builder…and morale. They have ammo that reaches a use-by date. The spectacle could be taken off-shore, the Waitemata doesn't burn.

          Ban them and do something better.
           

          • David Mac 11.3.1.1.1

            I don't want to stop tipping my hat to the Guy that would dare to smuggle barrels of gun-powder beneath the benches. As committed activists go, Mr Fawkes takes the cake. Outrageous insane act on a land far from here…. Maybe our growing up involves embracing the Matariki stars instead.

          • Anne 11.3.1.1.2

            Ban them and do something better.

            20-25 years ago, Twinings (I think it was Twinings) financed a magnificent display on the Waitemata Harbour. They had three barges… one close to North Head, one opposite the Devonport ferry terminal and the third somewhere off  the Viaduct Basin. They synced beautifully and I reckon it was the best display ever seen in Auckland.

            There must have been around 50,000 to 100,000 onlookers from North Head through to the Harbour Bridge on both sides of the Harbour. 

  11. Andre 12

    Top Repug: 'Release the transcript!'

    *transcript is released*

    reporter: Reporter: “Do you plan on reading these transcripts that were released?”⁰

    Graham: “No.”

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/lindsey-graham-impeachment-transcripts-gordon-sondland_n_5dc1ed6ee4b0f5dcf8fcabe4

    It's gonna be ever more fascinating watching the escalating squirming, evading, lying and reversals of positions previously held dear coming up over the next few months.

     

  12. Compass Rose 13

    https://wecantconsenttothis.uk/

    Grace Millane’s accused murderer has pleaded ‘rough sex gone wrong’ as his defence against guilt for her death. As I suspected would happen. We can’t let this become a thing in New Zealand. It’s licence to kill. I may not be able to stick around to argue about this topic as highly triggering but please look at the link if you care or have any concern about this important issue for women in ‘current year’. It’s real. It’s serious. It’s killing us.

    • Anne 13.1

      I can't see anyone here arguing about it Compass Rose. Good on you for bringing the matter to TS readers' attention.

    • Sabine 13.2

      they don't care, rape, sexual abuse, death at the hand of a partner they don't care. It must be something that happend because we did something to deserve it cause if we did not do something to deserve it then the men who killed these women must be fully responsible. And that can not be. Never ever. Thus nothing gets done, and the reputation of these dead women and their families must be smeared and other women must know and understand that if that happens to you its because you consented to it. 

      i am sorry, but nothing will ever happen to change that. Nothing. 

      • Anne 13.2.1

        That scenario doesn't just apply to the rape and killing of women which is at the most serious end of the spectrum. It also applies to other forms of attack on individual women whether it be physical or psychological bullying type behaviour. And you're right Sabine. It almost always gets brushed aside as something the victim supposedly did or said. We asked for it so…  stop your moaning, it's your own fault.

    • Gabby 13.3

      We'd need a judiciary not riddled with perverts wouldn't we.

  13. Sabine 14

    something serious

    something funny

    so what you gonna do about it? 

     

  14. greywarshark 15

    What happens if big corporations regard dead passengers as externalities?

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-50293927

    Boeing whistleblower raises doubts over 787 oxygen system

    • OnceWasTim 15.1

      BTW @greywarshark, things have re-appeared (in my case) – just on a different day than when posted. 

      Meanwhile, given Jacinda's attempts to clean up a sleezey, egotistical, misogynistic, exceptionalist oil slick that has the potential to taint everything around it, I'm reading up on tantric sex and dusting off my copy of the Karma Sutra.

      It seems a little more ‘civilised’ than ordering a bit of porn on the taxpayers’ credit card

      • greywarshark 15.1.1

        Edit
        Well a gentleman can then go home and say to his wife of either gender:

        'I am always true to you in my fashion, I'm always true to you darling in my way.'

        And don't be too tough, we are talking about a human, being human.   In the future it may be just a memory when we get to a stage where machines merge. (Your algorithm is so compatible with mine!)
        There possibly will be cases of computer ‘promiscuity’ and some programs will become unstable.

  15. joe90 16

    Amazing what blowing holes in a Saudi oil facility can achieve.

  16. Macro 17

    Some good results from the Tuesday Elections in Virginia, Kentucky, – The Blue wave of 2018 continues which promises well for this time next year.

    It’s not Election Day 2020 yet, but on Tuesday we got the next best thing.

    Voters all over the country headed to polls to decide local and state elections. The headline-grabbing contest was Democrat Andy Beshear beating Republican incumbent Gov. Matt Bevin in the Kentucky governor’s race — a state President Donald Trump won by a whopping 30 percent in 2016. Some caveats: Bevin was among the most unpopular governors in the country, and other Republican leaders in the state outperformed him on Tuesday.

    But Beshear’s win was still a big loss for Trump, who campaigned in Kentucky just a day before the election, explicitly tying Bevin’s race to his own reputation. The results also showed that Democrats in Kentucky were fired up — Beshear outperformed the 2015 Democratic gubernatorial candidate in many areas of the state.

    The other huge story was Virginia’s state legislature elections, where Democrats flipped both the state House and Senate, ensuring a trifecta with Gov. Ralph Northam (D) already in the governor’s mansion.

    Virginia has been trending blue for years, but the fact that Democrats generated so much enthusiasm in an off-year where state legislature elections were the biggest thing on the ballot means the party is organized and enthusiastic, even for traditionally sleepier races.

    Many of the questions going forward are going to be what this all means for Trump and Republicans in 2020. It’s not good news for them, for sure. If we learned one thing from Tuesday, it’s that Democrats are fired up — even in redder states.

    But there’s a lot of other impacts that extend far beyond Trump.

    https://www.vox.com/2019/11/5/20949741/winners-and-losers-election-night-2019 

    • Andre 17.1

      That Virginia Dems winning all three levels of government sets up the possibility of finally ratifying the Equal Rights Amendment of the Constitution, as mentioned in the last "winner" in the Vox piece linked above.

      However, that Vox piece misses a lot of details that will make it fascinating to watch, such as several states that ratified it some time ago have since attempted to rescind their ratification. But since it's never been tested, it's unknown whether the rescinding is valid.

       

      • Macro 17.1.1

        Virginia Dems winning all three levels of government sets up the possibility of finally ratifying the Equal Rights Amendment of the Constitution,

        Yeah true that – just keeping fingers crossed.

        Meanwhile – in Pence's home town no less –

        Democrats take control of Columbus City Council

        Four years ago, local Democrats made a statement by winning two Columbus City Council seats. Tuesday, they reshaped the council in a way it hasn’t been in more than 30 years.

        Four Democrats won seven of the city council seats up for grabs in the municipal election — the most the party has held at one time since 1983.

        Jerone Wood (District 1) and Grace Kestler (at-large) unseated Republican incumbents. Elaine Wagner (District 2) and Tom Dell (at-large) were re-elected to second terms.

        http://www.therepublic.com/2019/11/05/democrats-take-control-of-columbus-city-council/

      • lprent 17.1.2

        Not to mention that the ERA had a target date of something like 1982 for ratification (what idiot thought that was a good idea?). Probably means that a whole new round of ramifications.

  17. Eco maori 18

    Kia Ora Breakfast.

    Aotearoa natural products will become sort after commodities in the near future. 

    Why did the previous lot start selling hundreds of thousands South island crown lease land at dirt cheap prices A.

    What I see is money being used once again to stop conservation so that the money men can carry on pillaging the Ross sea tooth fish that fishery will collapse unless its protected like most fishery hav.  Orange Ruffy is a great example.

    I think choosing kind words to describe the problem like emotionally confused instead of mental health will get a lot more people to come forward and admit they are having problems.

    Data is not the holy grail unless it is reviewed by un biest sources it can be massaged to tell the story that the colabrator wants to use to influence people's opinions.

    Consumerism is the Phenomenon that can be directly linked to all the carbon being pumped into our atmosphere.

    Ka kite Ano 

  18. Eco maori 19

    This story is evedince that New Zealand is not as squeaky clean as most people believe. 

    White Silence: The tragic story of the Air Zealand jet that flew into Mt Erebus, killing all 257 people on board.

    The crash of an Air New Zealand plane on Mt Erebus on 28 November 1979 was the country's deadliest disaster, and the investigation into it produced the now well-known phrase: "An orchestrated litany of lies". 

    What was the orchestrated litany of lies? Who was supposed to be lying? And why did the plane crash?

    Some people know all about those things. But most of us don't. And really, we should.

    Not just because it's our worst-ever disaster, or a major anniversary is upon us, but because too few people over the years have ever really, properly reckoned with them. And that has got us where we are today. Forty years on, with an unresolved mess.

    The other thing that gets you is the circumstances of the crash: the plane just flew into the mountain. There was no mechanical failure, it wasn't caught in some polar storm, it just flew into the mountain. At 1500 feet. When the investigators listened to the cockpit voice recorder (black box) they were stunned to hear that in the final seconds before impact, none of the flight crew saw Erebus in front of them.

     

    . The only people with any experience flying in Antarctica were flight engineer Gordon Brooks and the in-flight commentator Peter Mulgrew.

    Mr Mulgrew was a mountaineer and an adventurer. He was part of the British Antarctic expedition in the 1950s and later lost both his feet to frostbite while climbing in the Himalayas. He wasn't initially rostered for the 28 November flight, but swapped with one of the other commentators – his friend, Sir Edmund Hillary.

    Ka kite Ano link below below. 

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/402799/white-silence-the-tragic-story-of-the-air-zealand-jet-that-flew-into-mt-erebus-killing-all-257-people-onboard

  19. Eco maori 20

     

    White Silence: The bizarre Erebus burglary – 'hardly anything was missing'

    Maria called the police. The burglary was strange for a few reasons: The power cut. How many burglars cut the power? Also, hardly anything was missing. A tape recorder was gone, a digital clock, some passports. But not Maria's jewellery, which was in the same drawer as the passports.

    There was one more thing: a photo of her husband, Captain Jim Collins, torn to pieces, and placed back in the envelope where it was kept.

    The more sinister theory was that the burglary was the work of New Zealand's SIS. In the four months since the crash, the Erebus disaster had taken on a life of its own.The safety record of DC10s had come under intense scrutiny. Since the first aircraft rolled off the production line in 1970 there had been no fewer than six crashes, claiming nearly 900 lives. Erebus was only the third-worst of them. 

    The SIS entered the theory because in 1980, Air New Zealand was entirely owned by the New Zealand government. An existential threat to the airline would be its problem.The shareholding minister was the Finance Minister, also the country's Prime Minister, Robert Muldoon. Muldoon also happened to be Minister for the SIS. RNZ's chief political

    correspondent at the time, Richard Griffin, remembers some wild rumours circulating in the press gallery. 

    There was a lot of speculation…Robert Muldoon… was using the SIS illegally, but who would know.

    Ka kite Ano link below. 

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/116618310/white-silence-the-bizarre-erebus-burglary–hardly-anything-was-missing

  20. Eco maori 22

     

    Africa poised to lead way in global green revolution, says report

    Continent is set for massive urbanisation but can avoid relying on fossil fuels, says IEA.

    Africa is poised to lead the world’s cleanest economic revolution by using renewable energy sources to power a massive spread of urbanisation, says an IEA report.

    The IEA, or International Energy Agency, predicts that solar energy will play a big role in supporting the continent’s growing population and industrialisation over the next 20 years.

    The report forecasts that Africa’s appetite for energy will grow at double the rate of the global average in the coming decades as the continent overtakes China and India as the most populated region in the world. 

    Africa’s population is expected to grow to more than 2 billion people by 2040, a rise of 800 million from today or the population equivalent of the US and Europe combined, says the report. People are expected to turn to cities and towns at a rate never seen before, where the demand for new houses and infrastructure will ignite an energy-hungry industrial revolution.

    Birol said: “Africa’s total contribution to cumulative global emissions from energy over the last 100 years is only 2%, which is half the emissions of Germany today. If everyone in Africa had access to energy this 2% will rise to just 3% – it’s still nothing. It’s peanuts compared to other countries in the world which are using fossil fuels such as coal for energy.

    “But while Africa does not contribute to climate change the continent is on the frontline of its potential effects, including droughts. Africa is perhaps the most innocent continent in terms of its contributions to climate change, but they will be the victims

  21. Eco maori 23

    Kia Ora 1 News. 

    I know what it's like working 4 days straight. 

    People dumpling rubbish in our Awa is not on maybe the needs to be a 2 hours a week free dumping for the people less fortunate. 

    The Bush fire season is starting earlier and getting bigger in Australia and America let's hope not to much life is lost. 

    The British rocket car that's trying to break the land speed record looks highly technical. 

    Ka kite Ano. 

     

  22. Eco maori 24

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News. 

    Great to see Te Rangatahi Kapa Haka going Mana. 

    Hine it looks like they might learn to treat a Tangata Whenua Mana Wahine of your standing with more respect.

    The Book on Tangata Whenua protest looks like it will be awesome there will be a lot of knowledge in it to. 

    Sonny is being rewarded for his Mana Mahi.

    The Tangata Whenua Sports awards has heaps of great Stars this year congratulations to you all. 

    Ka kite Ano 

     

     

     

  23. Eco maori 25

    I have accused some companies of this and here I find facts to back up my accusations. The person on the spade whenua has decreased and bureaucracy has increased hence our Roads are not being built as effective efficiently as 40 years ago the tangata on the whenua are getting paid bugger all most of the wages going to management. 

    ‘Parkinson’s Law’ took on a life of its own, forming the basis of several more essays and a book by Parkinson, leading to public lectures around the world.

    But what fewer people know is that Parkinson’s original intent was not to take aim at old lady letter-writers or journalists like me, but at a different kind of inefficiency – the bureaucratisation of the British Civil Service. In his original essay he pointed out that although the number of navy ships decreased by two thirds, and personnel by a third, between 1914 and 1928, the number of bureaucrats had still ballooned by almost 6% a year. There were fewer people and less work to manage – but management was still expanding, and Parkinson argued that this was due to factors that were independent of naval operational needs.

    One scholar who has taken a serious look at Parkinson’s Law is Stefan Thurner, a professor in Science of Complex Systems at the Medical University of Vienna. Thurner says he became interested in the concept when the faculty of medicine at the University of Vienna split into its own independent university in 2004. Within a couple years, he says, the Medical University of Vienna went from being run by 15 people to 100, while the number of scientists stayed about the same. “I wanted to understand what was going on there, and why my bureaucratic burden did not diminish – on the contrary it increased,” he says.

    He happened to read Parkinson’s book around the same time and was inspired to turn it into a mathematical model that could be manipulated and tested, along with co-authors Peter Klimek and Rudolf Hanel. “Parkinson argued that if you have 6% growth rate of any administrative body, then sooner or later any company will die. They will have all their workforce in bureaucracy and none in production.

    Ka kite Ano link below. 

    https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20191107-the-law-that-explains-why-you-cant-get-anything-done

    • Eco maori 25.1

      To the post below because someone is playing games with my devices I have to make post like this. 

      We need a good clean environment to live and leave for our Mokopuna. If not all the movies about a apocalypse will come true. 

  24. Eco maori 26

     

    What Are the Top 5 Environmental Concerns for 2019?

    1. Biodiversity

    Biodiversity is the most complex and vital feature of our planet. It is essentially every living thing and ecosystem that makes up the environment. From the tallest giraffe to the smallest microorganism, everything plays an important role in the maintenance of our world.

    But with the increase in global warming, pollution and deforestation, biodiversity is in danger. Billions of species are going or have gone extinct all over the world. Some scientists, in fact, are suggesting that we are in the beginning of a 6th mass extinction, posing issues for our planet and ourselves.

    2. Water

    Water pollution is a huge concern for us and our environment. Not only is polluted water a huge financial strain but is also killing both humans and marine life. With oil spills, an abundance of plastic waste and toxic chemicals entering our waterways, we’re damaging the most valuable resource our planet has to offer.

    By educating people on the causes and effects of water pollution, we can work together to undo the damage humans have caused. Laws also need to change to make pollution tougher, consistently across national borders.

    3. Deforestation

    We need plants and trees to survive. They provide oxygen, food, water and medicine for everyone, all over the globe. But if deforestation continues at the rate it’s occurring, we won’t have much of the valuable forestry left.

    With natural wildfires, illegal logging and the mass amount of timber being harvested for commercial use, our forests are decreasing at an alarming rate. As well as reducing our supply of oxygen, the loss of forests is contributing around 15% of our greenhouse gas emissions

    4. Pollution

    Pollution is one of the primary causes of many of the other environmental concerns, including climate change and biodiversity. All 7 key types of pollution – air, water, soil, noise, radioactive, light and thermal – are affecting our environment.

    All types of pollution, and environmental concerns, are interlinked and influence one another. So, to tackle one is to tackle them all. That’s why we need to work together, as a community, to reduce the impact that pollution is having on our environment.

    5. Climate Change

    As pointed out by a recent UN report, without ‘unprecedented changes’ in our actions and behaviour, our planet will suffer drastically from global warming in just 12 years. Greenhouses gases are the main cause of climate change, trapping in the sun’s heat and warming the surface of the earth.

    An increased ocean temperature is affecting the sea life and ecosystems habituated there. The rise in global sea levels is shrinking our land, causing mass floods and freak weather incidents across the world. If we continue as we are, the world will suffer irreversibly

    Ka kite Ano link below 

  25. Eco maori 28

    Kia Ora 1 News. 

    It looks like we are going to see some colourful Tawhirimate soon.

    That's is cool Doc seed banking our native trees to protect them from mertalrust.

    That just shows how backwards Australia laws are. 

    Big flooding in Britain that's Global warming feel sorry for Te tangata they have had repeated flooding of late. 

    War is for idiots peace is what makes a great Papatuanuku. 

    Cool that Nui tamariki are being taught how to swim with help from Aotearoa commissioner pool. My first swimming lesson was thrown in the deep I soon learned how to swim.

    Ka kite Ano. 

  26. Eco maori 29

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News. 

    Our old Tangata Whenua sites need to be taonga and kept in prestige condition for Te Mokopuna.

    That's is cool that the fire service is checking and teaching te Marae and tangata about mitigating Ahi. 

    Congratulations to Te Young Maori for his invitation to the 21 Asia  tech conference that can be a great mahi for Te Rangatahi.

    Ka kite Ano 

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