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Open mike 06/11/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 6th, 2022 - 52 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

52 comments on “Open mike 06/11/2022 ”

  1. weston 1

    https://theintercept.com/2022/10/31/social-media-disinformation-dhs/

    Interesting story from the Intercept about the use of special ' portals ' in use by both Twitter and Facebook to facilitate manipulation of media by agents of DHS and other agencies .

    Fun phrases such as " need to regulate the cognitive infrastructure " are enthusiastically bandied about by the agents involved but its just called censorship in layman's language

    I guess there will be quite a few supporters here for this sort of ' intervention 'as our own PM is championing the cause ?

  2. I guess there will be quite a few supporters here for this sort of ' intervention 'as our own PM is championing the cause ?

    Is this the Christchurch Call you are meaning? This was set in motion by the killing of 51 defenceless people here in NZ. In this she was joined by Macron whose country had suffered from terrorists as well. What on earth is the problem with asking agencies making money from people thoughts to institute basic speech 'hygiene' roles.

    Some free speech proponents seem to think free speech means being able to say the most ghastly things about other people, possibly inciting others. Free speech does not mean freedom from consequences.

    Have not watched the Intercept. The earlier Youtube link gave me such a fright I have vowed not to watch any other possible RW dribble.

    I followed the anti vax agenda from very, very early on and it meant having to read lots of unhinged, anti people media. While I did this dis/mis- information investigation for my own interest and with a purpose I am far from wanting to see it in everyday life.

    I also don't think you have introduced it (Intercept) well enough and you certainly have not discussed the topic well enough so people don't have to watch the film to be able to participate.

    PS who is DHS, who are the ‘other agencies’?

    • PsyclingLeft.Always 2.1

      Hi Shanreagh. How are things with new Mayor Tory ? Hope she gets a good go at it : ) Re your comment #2 did you see the NZ Doco about…Haters in nz ?

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/130215388/local-documentary-web-of-chaos-looks-at-the-internets-dark-side

      Was some I did not know…good to see exposed. And see the Investigative Reporters/Researchers (and quite brave actually with threats against them)

      • Shanreagh 2.1.1

        Yes I did see it. Companion piece to the one about the the 'protest/riot' at parliament

        Tory Whanau is head down and bottom up as far as I can see/hear. Which is what I want. Can't bear the 'rah, rah looka me looka me', I have to be in your face every five minutes like her counterpart in Auckland but I guess 'horses for courses'.

        Her connections into our community will be invaluable.

        I was very impressed that she has chosen one of our local ward councillors as her deputy, Laurie Foon. Laurie is a former owner/designer of a fashion shop in Wellington that used sustainable methods in its fashion long before the slow fashion etc movement became popular. Our ward also elected Nureddin Adurahman who came from Ethiopia as a refugee, to the Council.

        Somali and Ethiopian immigrants settled in my community and meet for coffee and 'changing the world' at one of our cafes here in Newtown. So face recognition I am sure for Nureddin will have been a help as he is out and about. .

        https://policy.nz/2022/wellington-city-council-paekawakawa-southern-general-ward/candidates/nureddin-abdurahman.

        • swordfish 2.1.1.1

          .

          Tory Whanau is head down and bottom up as far as I can see/hear. Which is what I want. Can't bear the 'rah, rah looka me looka me', I have to be in your face every five minutes like her counterpart in Auckland but I guess 'horses for courses'.

          Sorry, but what Planet are you living on ?

          Deeply narcissistic Corporate Lobbyist …

          … but then that’s precisely your kind of “Left” (LOL) isn’t it . Affluent, power-hungry, highly performative virtue-signaling … inherently, ruthlessly self-interested.

          • Shanreagh 2.1.1.1.1

            So the personal negativity against me continues. To be frank I am mighty sick of you making up things about me that are so wide of the mark is not funny. I'm still laughing about your All Black comment from the last bout of negativity. So far off the mark it was crazy.

            I am sure you do not live in Wellington as I have not heard the terms you are using. Most of the people I have spoken to where I have mentioned this bad so called lobbyist have felt that knowing one's way around the corporate scene is an asset. But then that is Wellington for you.

            And Aucklanders have elected a person that so stunningly represents the stereotype …….

          • weka 2.1.1.1.2

            give it a rest mate. Taking potshots at commenters crosses a line.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 2.1.1.2

          yesVariety's the very spice [and a fact] of life, that gives it all its flavour.” – Cowper

          I like the sound of my own voice – but does that make me a narcissist?
          I was on the phone to a friend recently, blathering away as usual, when I realised that there was no one on the other end of the line. How long ago had this happened? I checked my phone and discovered, to my horror, that the call had ended almost five minutes ago.

          Everyone has some narcissistic traits, he says, but a narcissist is someone who lets it govern their personality. When it tips over into a problem, he says, is when you have narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). These people exhibit what Malkin calls the triple E: they are so driven to feel special that they will exploit other people; they are so entitled they think other people should bend to their will; and empathy impairment can make them blind to the feelings of others, usually to the detriment of personal relationships.

          https://www.helpguide.org/articles/mental-disorders/narcissistic-personality-disorder.htm

        • PsyclingLeft.Always 2.1.1.3

          Good on you Shanreagh. And Yea I think Tory Whanau will be the Change for the better that Wellington badly needed.
          And try to ignore the quite sad, albeit negative commenter.

          If you feel possible, I'd like you to keep giving some updates on how you think Wellington is going ? I value your Input. Cheers : )

          • Shanreagh 2.1.1.3.1

            Will do, though not much to report lately.

            I'm still smiling & chuffed at Tory getting in, at her deputy being one of our ward councillors and the other ward councillor being Nureddin Abdurahman.

    • weston 2.2

      Shanreagh : What is DHS ? Department of Homeland Security set up after 911

      This article i neglected to say , my bad ,is called Truth Cops and is by two journalists called Lee Fang and Ken Kippelstein both of whom afaik work for The Intercept .They look fairly credible to me but doubtless the morality police will inform us if it is otherwise !!

      The article has nothing to do with the terror attack in CC or terror attacks in the US but rather attempts by gov agencies in the US , putting it in simple terms , to influence and ' shape perspectives '.Obviously and ominously ! these would include ' political perspectives '

      Personally for the record i have no axes to grind as far as the anti vax movement in nz goes having got all the requisite jabs myself and far from holding any serious grudges against JA i have regarded anti signage of the aforementioned with a kind of disattached bemusement as ive travelled about although in saying that i'd have to add that fairly serious divisions in our society in general are evident and are of concern .

      All of a sudden or so it seems to me there is an unreasonable fear by people that exposure to some information is gonna herald or usher in some sort of breakdown of normal functioning cognitive reasoning which i think is both sad and chickenshit .

      I prefer my info UNpasturised !!

      t

      • Shanreagh 2.2.1

        Well there you go…..had you included all the stuff about the link first off I may have watched it.

        I found though that the previous piece you linked to and I unwittingly read, was of the same ilk ie slightly unhinged as was the anti vax stuff that I did not/could not watch it. I drew an analogy about the vax to show that the last link from you was crazy and I did not need/want to expose myself to any more. My para was not to query whether you or anyone else was anti vax??

        The whole thing about perception is slightly naive.

        Isn't that what every advertisement, every leader-writer, every editor, every politician, every government works in?

        For instance in Wellington last year we were invited to give comments on intensification of residential use. The fact that this was obviously and clearly approved as a concept by Govt and then conveyed to local authorities meant that someone in the intro to the comments had already made up their minds that this was OK and we got this perception loud and clear in the information given.

        The whole atmosphere about how people had got some things so wrong around the anti vax/protest time renewed calls for schools syllabuses to include topics about propaganda, information management/perception management and how to fact check etc.

        Perception management is widespread. Mostly benign, if you know how to deal with it.

    • Anker 2.3

      https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL2211/S00004/on-inflating-the-threat-posed-by-social-media.htm

      I am not sure if you are referring to social media Shanreigh, but as Gordon Campbell says much has been made of the threat posed by social media. He's not convinced. Interesting coming from a leftie.

      One of the problems about shutting down free speech is it forces people underground. Personally I think marginalizing people in this way will more likely lead to radicalization. Yes there should be consequences for free speech and the consequences should be that people get called out, challenged and debated. When I say called out, I don't mean the current propensity to label someone (which in this climate often means de platforming them). First you label them (some popular labels being transphobe, racist, mysogynist) then you don't engage in debate. I think this is highly polarizing.

      If you think controlling what people say is going to fix say racism I am going to have to say I very much disagree. Do you think Bluebird foods, who sacked a worker for saying (on their private FB page) in response to Whittakers Te Reo chocolate that she was sick to death of Maori language everywhere she went (not a direct quote) is going to promote race relations? Because I don't think it will.

      Besides, who gets to decide what is acceptable or not.

      We currently have laws that put limits on free speech. Defamation laws and inciting violence laws. One of the problems with trying to restrict free speech that doesn't mean this criteria, but expresses hatred is that is endemic. This website is not immune.

      I hope you are right about Tory W. Time will tell as it will with Wayne B. I wish them both well, god knows both Wellington and Auckland have some pretty big issues that need fixing.

      • Shanreagh 2.3.1

        I am not talking about social media. I've got no real views on it.

        As far as racism, sexism and all the other isms. We surely don't need to debate whether these have a place in our world. They don't. We have the Human Rights legislation, the role of human rights flowing from the UN, and brought about by the great distaste and hope the human race never has/had to fight another ware like the world did against the Nazis where their war was against people of a different religion. These are supposed to recognise that it is never Ok to discriminate. Un regulated so-called free speech can do just this.

        Clearly though people do slip up or test the boundaries. That does not mean that we need to debate the concept of human rights as a result. We look at the why, why have such views come about, Do we need to care more for the teaching of critical thinking…

        Free speech can exist in a world where human rights exist. We do not have to give voice to every distasteful though we have against someone who is different from us. Neither do we need to engage with someone who does as if they had a point worth debating, they don't. We can engage on the basis of trying to correct a misapprehension though.

        Good parenting, good education also has an important role.

        I don't have a view on the Bluebird person except to say that ill conceived views can cause a lessening of views about the reputation of a corporate. Reputation management ie a subset of perception management, is greatly cared for by corporates. Israel Folau was another who felt his views on homosexuality were worth sharing with the world, his sponsor did not.

        There have been employment law cases (that I used to have my finger on) that said this much. Unless the person had tied their FB setting down tightly then a post on FB is a post to the world.

        • Anker 2.3.1.1

          No I am not debating whether racism or sexism has a role in our world. But the reality as you expressed on this site a couple of days back is that NZ is racist. I think it is less racist than what you may think, although I can’t know this for sure, and part of my evidence is the health service and the outpouring of support for the Musleim community after the outrage.
          So what do we do about racism? May people criminals? Who defines what exactly is racism? Sexism? I know the woke definition of transphobia and I think it is just a way to shut people down.

          "My suggestion was that we call it out, challenge it, question why people have their views (for example why was the bluebird employee sick of Te Reo). Because the hate speech laws will/could make it a crime to say racist or sexist things (who knows how they will define it, when the PM couldn't define it when she said "you know it when you see it").

          The first I heard of the Bluebird employee was when Bluebird said they were investigating the worker (she claims she grew up in Northland and doesn’t consider herself racist). Bluebird had a complaint about it from someone who went out of thir way to find out where the woman worked and then complained. So if BB hadn’t have drawn attention to it, it would likely have gone unnoticed. Do you think the woman should have lost her job for what she said? I don’t. And I think BB would be hard pressed to prove reputational damage.

          I have only just begun to research CRT, but from what I have read, it doesn’t decrease racism and perhaps may backfire (this intuitively makes sense to me). If anyone can provide me with some links that show otherwise, I would open to reading it.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 2.3.1.1.1

            I think it [NZ] is less racist than what you may think, although I can’t know this for sure…

            It's not essential to be a target of racism to perceive racism, but it can help. Of course we can’t shut all racists down, but where’s the harm in making examples of a few high-profile cases? Maybe ask the target(s).

            https://divyaiwrites.home.blog/2019/06/07/critical-response-to-eating-dark-chocolate-and-watching-paul-holmes-apology-by-karlo-mila/

            Eating dark chocolate and watching Paul Holmes' apology

            Tonight Paul Holmes apologised

            sorry / he said / I've hurt my family / I may have hurt yours /

            yes / we scrapped in the car over it / there was yelling / by the time we got to the end of the Mangere motorway / I was crying / who is this redneck with the big brown shoulders sitting next to me / anti PC /darker than me / defending freedom of speech / but I don't want it to be all right /

            / I don't want my kids to have stanzas of darkie memories /

            sorry / Paul Holmes said / I could see that he meant it / I felt sad for him / and happy / I signed the petition to say he should get sacked / I am a manager in a govt. department / not Matlock / not the PM / just a member of the chocolate soldier movement / melting in the middle

            As Waititi said – "a cheeky giggle" – or, indeed, a "cheeky darkie" – "gives others the message that it's okay."

            Holmes 'cheeky darkie' complaints dismissed
            The authority did not uphold complaints about Holmes' comments on female journalists. Holmes had asked whether the number of female journalists was making journalism "ignorant and bitchy" and if newspapers were particularly judgmental at certain times of the month.

  3. AB 3

    there will be quite a few supporters here for this sort of ' intervention '

    No – not really. People on the left are wary of surveillance, because historically most of it has been directed against people like us. However, to not acknowledge that the US has a problem with domestic terrorism and random shooters, and that the State has an obligation to protect its people, is delusional extremism in itself – often smuggled in under the false flag of 'free speech'. Some sort of difficult balance has to be found.

    And people on the left believe that the best counter to misinformation is not censorship, but a well-funded, well-regulated public broadcaster with strong firewalls in place against government interference. But as we have seen National opposes the attempt to create such a thing via the TVNZ-RNZ merger. And clearly, that's because the tide of misinformation in NZ mostly flows in National's favour via the Herald-ZB-Newshub nexus.

  4. arkie 4

    Owning Twitter has led to some surprisingly revelatory tweets from the big man
    /

  5. Reality 5

    Good move by Grant Robertson at the Labour Party conference to raise "Liz" Luxon's plan to give generous tax relief to the well off and $2-3 a week to those not earning a high income. Robertson gets his point across very well and with humour. Keep it up highlighting the inequity of National's intentions!

    Luxon should be embarrassed, but of course is not and appears very smug about his intentions, should National win next year.

  6. Poission 6

    Labour to address cost of living catastrophe with policy announcements.

    Will the announcements be targeted so as not to increases inflation?

    Will the announcements be debt funded (increasing fiscal risk and debt inflation)?

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/130388925/live-jacinda-ardern-set-to-announce-cost-of-living-policy-as-labour-conference-closes

    There is a significant decrease in the asset value of the government since the update on the June year,with ACC,NZSF and housing assets depreciating as well as debt increases and higher interest payments coming into the bond tenders.

  7. observer 7

    Party conferences are quite revealing, as they are entirely presented by the parties themselves, not distorted through the media lens.

    At every National conference, the leader will be joined on stage by an adoring spouse (usually wife) and children. Whereas Ardern is joined by the Cabinet, and her daughter is nowhere to be seen.

    Perhaps the most baseless of all the attacks on the PM is that she parades her family for photo ops and votes. The opposite is true, and always has been. The lie is projection.

  8. Anker 8

    Observer not sure I have seen Luxon's wife or kids, but maybe that's because you wouldn't see me at a National Party conference…..

    do remember 2017 with Bill English bringing out the family (one who sung some opera) and some wit drew a paralel to the Sound of Music………….

    I am not sure voters care too much about families and kids except their own.

    The child care subsidy is clever, because likely not to be inflationary. but the rest of us still have to cope with rising food and housing costs. Good to know the middle class aren't overlooked. What about beneficiaries who don't work? Oh well, maybe another time.

    ps I may be mistaken here as I haven't read all the details.

  9. observer 9

    Newshub poll at 6 pm. Given the overall trend, probably bad for Labour. But it's the outsiders that are more interesting, are the "plague on both your houses" voters gravitating towards any particular party?

    • millsy 9.1

      Labour have about a year to turn things around. Judging by the policy announcements made today, doesn't really look like it's making much of an effort.

    • Very grateful to see that sanity has prevailed – and that NZF are well back behind the 5% threshold.
      Making the Horizon poll look very much like a rogue result.

      NZF is a tick up from polling earlier this year – but certainly doesn't seem to be attracting significant support from any of the 4 larger parties (Lab/Nat/Grn/ACT)

      The 'plague on all your houses' vote appears to be staying home….

      • millsy 9.2.1

        Unfortunately, under National, most workers can forget about getting any decent form of payrise until after 2030.

      • scotty 9.2.2

        NZF support has doubled 3.3 up from 1.6 – so is on track to feature in 2023.

        A National and Act government is not the sort of sanity Im looking for. – each to their own.

        • Belladonna 9.2.2.1

          Random polls this year have given them up to 4% – setting aside the nearly 7% from the Horizon outlier poll.

          I'd say their current poll result puts them well within the rest of the polling this year – crucially under 5%.

          Do you really want Winston back in parliament? Or is that just a cross you'd be prepared to bear in order to get a Labour/Green coalition over the line?

          • scotty 9.2.2.1.1

            Yes its a cross I would bear to get Lab/green over the line.

            And you ? would you rather a Nat/ Act government just to keep NZF out of parliament? or do you just see NZF as an impediment to Act/Nat forming a government.

            • Belladonna 9.2.2.1.1.1

              Just can't stand 'what's in it for Winston' – with his dodgy ethics and pork-barrel politics.

              • scotty

                But comfortable with National's dodgy ethics and pork barrel politics.

                I understand

                • No more than with Labour's dodgy ethics and pork barrel politics.

                  I used to think that the Greens were the only ethical party in parliament – but then James Shaw supported the 'Green' private school….

                  But Winston is several levels ahead of any of his contemporaries in the fine art /sarc/ of wheeler-dealing.

  10. Stuart Munro 10

    The shape of things to come?

    Collapse of snow crab fisheries not saved by quota style management.

    Marine Biologist: Why 11 Billion Snow Crabs Disappeared – YouTube

  11. Muttonbird 11

  12. Muttonbird 12

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