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Open mike 07/04/2020

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, April 7th, 2020 - 163 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

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Step up to the mike …

163 comments on “Open mike 07/04/2020”

  1. Statement from David Clark

    Last night as part of my preparation for the Epidemic Response Committee, I provided the Prime Minister with a complete picture of my activity outside my home during Alert Level 4. 

    That included the fact that on the first weekend of the Alert Level 4 lockdown I drove my family approximately 20 kilometres from our house in Dunedin to Doctor’s Point Beach for a walk.

    This trip was a clear breach of the lockdown principles of staying local and not driving long distances to reach recreation spots. 

    As the Health Minister it’s my responsibly to not only follow the rules but set an example to other New Zealanders. 

    At a time when we are asking New Zealanders to make historic sacrifices I’ve let the team down. I’ve been an idiot, and I understand why people will be angry with me. 

    I’ve apologised to the Prime Minister for my lack of judgement and offered her my resignation. 

    In the interest of full disclosure, since the lockdown began I have also driven my family to a walking track approximately 2 kilometres from our house for a walk and gone for occasional runs, all of which were local and within the rules, and one bike ride which is already in the public domain. 

    Statement from the Prime Minister on Dr David Clark

    “Yesterday evening the Health Minister advised me of his trip to a beach during the lockdown and offered his resignation,” Jacinda Ardern said. 

    “Under normal conditions I would sack the Minister of Health. What he did was wrong, and there are no excuses. 

    “But right now, my priority is our collective fight against COVID-19. We cannot afford massive disruption in the health sector or to our response. For that reason, and that reason alone, Dr Clark will maintain his role. 

    “But he does need to pay a price. He broke the rules. 

    “While he maintains his Health portfolio, I am stripping him of his role as Associate Finance Minister and demoting him to the bottom of our Cabinet rankings. 

    “I expect better, and so does New Zealand,” Jacinda Ardern said. 

    Ardern must be furious. Not only did Clark blatantly breach Level 4 rules and Ardern's requests (of the public), he seems to have sat on this since last Thursday. If he only informed Ardern last night as he states that's just about as bad as breaching the lockdown rules.

    As Clark says, he’s been an idiot and has let the team down.

    • Andre 1.1

      Hey Pete, what are your thoughts on Simon Bridges driving up and down the country and his apparent attitude that he's entitled to and he's going to keep doing it?

      • bwaghorn 1.1.1

        For me his obvious electioneering in supermarkets is of more concern.  

        • Andre 1.1.1.1

          Well yes, that particular activity is indeed more likely to spread around whatever it is he's ailing from.

          But in this particular thread I'm interested in exploring the difference in attitudes between one party that says 'shit, I screwed up and I've learned from it' and another party that says "I'm entitled and I'm gonna keep doing it'.

          • Pete George 1.1.1.1.1

            'shit, I screwed up and I've learned from it' – four days after the story started to come out requiring the Minister of Finance and Prime Minister to cover for him and make misleading if not false statements about his availability.

            It was  a series of screwups. In an interview on RNZ this morning Clark was still fudging around, saying he made "an error of judgement” – he made a series of errors of judgements – and saying after the bike ride blew up he “went back and discovered something else”. 

            Four days later he discovered his voice and told Ardern. That's put Clark's party in an embarrassing situation at time they need to be working on some big stuff.

            Clark's competence as Minister of Health remains questionable.

            • bwaghorn 1.1.1.1.1.1

              I was meh about the bike ride but the 20 kms to the beach . Dumb fucker needs sacking when it's over. 

            • aj 1.1.1.1.1.2

              “..fudging around..”

              If you think that was fudge then I’m not asking you to do any baking for me.

            • Anne 1.1.1.1.1.3

              Why don't you awnser Andre's question @ 1.1 Pete G?

              In case you missed it:

              … what are your thoughts on Simon Bridges driving up and down the country and his apparent attitude that he's entitled to and he's going to keep doing it?

              And might I add:

              Organising a photo op. in the middle of a supermarket with the store owner and a staffer and standing less than a metre away from both of them.

              Reckon that's good role modelling? Don't you think as leader of the National Party he should apologise and offer to step down? 

              Lets face it mate even if you and your fellow trolls can’t:

              If you apply the rules strictly to one senior politician then you have to apply the rules equally as strictly to all senior politicians.

            • Ed1 1.1.1.1.1.4

              "Clark's competence as Minister of Health remains questionable."

              Which is as it should be and remains unchanged for all Ministers. Any Minister is of course also a politician, and needs to set a good example – and in that Clark failed, but there is nothing to indicate that his competence in the role of Minister of Health has changed due to his breaches of guidelines relating to travel. One of the areas where I think the government as a whole has excelled is in accepting scientific advice; the political dimension was placing saving of life and providing support to get through necessary lockdown – other countries have given greater political weight to "business as usual"  Clark's mistake was essentially that he did not act as a responsible and good example. For that he is being rightly vilified.

      • Gosman 1.1.2

        Is he in breach of his own Ministries advice? 

      • Pete George 1.1.3

        That's been covered here: Two Bubbles Bridges’ Big Day Out

        I think there's an argument for key people to front up in person dealing with the pandemic. Some are doing that in Wellington, including Ardern, Robertson and a number of officials and police.

        And despite some questions here I think that Leader of the Opposition is a key role, especially at a time of substantially increased Government powers.

        But travelling back and forward from Tauranga to Wellington by car is an obvious risk and sends bad signals.

        I think if Bridges deems his job in Wellington is important enough then he should have based himself in Wellington for the duration of the lockdown. That may have required one trip to get there.

        As per Clark, when so many restrictions are put on all our lives, politicians must be seen to doing similar and not making their own rules.

        But this is largely a diversion from today's topic started here. Minister of Health is one of the most critical jobs in the country right now, or at least it should be. Bridges has made himself look bad, Clark has made the Government look bad.

        • Andre 1.1.3.1

          Do you think Clark's dumbfuckery (beach trip much more than the drive'n'bike episode) and the subsequent fallout has actually damaged the response to the crisis?

          Personally I kinda think the actual result from a high profile person breaking the rules in a way that is very unlikely to increase risk or cause actual harm and can legitimately be viewed as trivial, but nonetheless getting slapped pretty hard for it, will likely have the actual result of reinforcing the idea that the rules are to be taken seriously.

    • Sanctuary 1.2

      Nice to see Pete George and the MSM finally got something at their level of comprehension.

    • I Feel Love 1.3

      All I see is one death, hospitals not at peak, good communication from the Govt, a competent leader, people making an effort, and a few whiners on the sidelines. Just my view. 

  2. Treetop 2

    Just heard on RNZ Boris Johnson moved to ICU.

    The awful thing with Covid-19 is that day 7-10 it can seriously affect the lungs.

     

    • Peter 1 2.1

      Really have no sympathy let the heard sort it out, he was quite willing to let the old and sick die. I know you will all jump on me for saying this but I hope the Tory bastard dies a slow lingering death.

      [You knew what you were saying was bad but you did it anyway!? If you want to keep your commenting privileges here, I would not make these kinds of utterly wrong judgement calls again, if I were you. No more warnings – Incognito]

      • Treetop 2.1.1

        I find your comment to be unacceptable and the last sentence to be inappropriate.

        Herd and not heard. I am not the greatest speller either.

      • James 2.1.2

        What an horrible thing to hope for.  One of the more disgusting comments I have ever read on here.

        Here is hoping you and your family never are on the receiving end of what you are so happy to hope happens to others.

        • Peter 1 2.1.2.1

          Not others just HIM.

          • Stunned Mullet 2.1.2.1.1

            Your comments say far more about you than anything else.

            • Peter 1 2.1.2.1.1.1

              Oh yes must not say nasty things about the tory bastards how many disabled deaths do they say they are responsible for, from memory about 130,000. Thousands living on the streets, shit wages and god help you if you have mental health problems but no don't call a spade a spade. just sit back and have another glass of wine and go tut tut.

              • Stunned Mullet

                Refer to my comment above..

              • James

                What you said was personal and disgusting. Not just nasty or calling a ‘spade a spade’. 
                 

                from your reply it seems you are still quiet ok with your comment. Perhaps you should reflex on that – because in no way was it acceptable. 

              • Treetop

                You cannot hold the current leader of a party responsible for the decisions which were made by other PMs of that party.

                Johnson has not been the PM for that long and a lot of his leadership hours have gone into Brexit. He was democratically elected. Now he has a double whammy with Covid-19, politically and personally.

                Everyone is going to be affected with the repercussions of Covid-19.

                No one likes to see the disabled, the homeless, the unwell or those not earning enough struggling.

                Johnson is in ICU and you need to pull your head in and not blame him directly and reflect on your vile words.

                I intend to not reply to you again over this topic.

      • Incognito 2.1.3

        See my Moderation note @ 12:19 PM.

      • Alice Tectonite 2.1.4

        I hope he recovers, learns from the experience and becomes less of a prick.

  3. ScottGN 3

    Boris Johnson has been moved to ICU.

    • Sanctuary 3.2

      Wow. Has he got any co-morbidities? How old is Boris?

      I read an account of COVID-19 from a UK based friend of mine of Facebook and it sounds freaking awful. He is a fit young guy in his late thirties and was badly hit. His wife also caught it and she was fine though, almost aymptomatic. He says his kids didn't catch it but IMHO they probably did, but were totally asymptomatic. 

       

      • Incognito 3.2.1

        How old is Boris?

        His mental age or his real age?

      • A 3.2.2

        Co-morbidities aside, once on a ventilator there is only a 30% chance of getting off it alive (just heard that from Chris Martenson update for today). 

        If he is lucky he will be given Vit C/Chaga mushroom/zinc/quercetin, but due to the vicious response any request will be met with this is unlikely.  Could be that he has some kind of  advance medical directive that might turn this situation for him, but otherwise it looks bad.

         

        • pat 3.2.2.1

          Hes 55…and ICU dosnt necessarily mean ventilator as I understand it.

        • Treetop 3.2.2.2

          It is my understanding that when a person's heart rate, blood pressure and breathing are an issue, these are reasons for an ICU admission in regard to Covid-19.

          I read an old study done in 1984 that Vitamin C assists with water on the lungs and that 80% who have pneumonia recover if they have as little as 250 mg per day. Quercetin is a good antihistamine.

    • ScottGN 3.3

      RNZ just reported that he was conscious but on a ventilator. 

      • Sanctuary 3.3.1

        I think the high death rate is once they are intubated(?) as in have the tube put down their throat, as that requires all sorts of sedation and catheters and renal support etc etc

         

        • Muttonbird 3.3.1.1

          Wow. Being on a ventilator is no small thing. It's literally 50/50 stuff for him right now if that's the case.

          Apparently Dominic Raab looked white as a ghost when addressing the media. He of course will know more than us.

          Can't help thinking Johnson has always underestimated this thing. Now he's got first hand experience of what it can do.

  4. Andre 4

    Is Genghis Can't setting up Dr Fauci to be the fall guy? The narrative certainly seems to be getting set to paint Fauci as the deep state operative trying to underhandedly undermine the MAGAmoron Glorious Leader.

    https://www.salon.com/2020/04/06/are-trump-and-his-allies-setting-up-dr-fauci-as-the-pandemic-scapegoat/

    • Treetop 4.1

      When will Trump learn to work with people associated with the White House who know so much more than he does?

      I saw what you raise in the link on Aljazeera TV on Sunday.

       

       

      • ScottGN 4.1.1

        Fat chance of that!

      • Andre 4.1.2

        What, and break a continuous 73 years of unrestrained narcissism reinforced by being encapsulated in a protective cocoon of paid suckups?

  5. Rosemary McDonald 5

    Hey Andre. Some of us have long since realised the futility of criticizing those on the right…its kind of like blaming a dog for barking or a cat for hunting.  It's just who they are and what they do and an integral part of their nature.

    The last National MP who could legitimately claim a functioning moral compass was Waring.

    Simon is a special case, really special, and  his unfortunate deficits are for his party to manage.

    Those on the left should, perhaps, show that we expect a higher standard from our elected representatives. Especially those who are at the forefront of a crisis.

    Or do we give up on the sorry lot of them?

     

     

     

    • Andre 5.1

      While I'm of the view that Clark's drive'n'bike ride was in a broad grey area, his newly disclosed beach trip is clearly outside of guidelines. He has properly offered to resign, and the Prime Minister had made a measured response to that offer.

      I get it that you want his head on a pike and are disappointed that hasn't happened, but it looks to me like your view is grossly distorted by your personal circumstances.

      Go ahead and give up on the lot of them, if you sit down and honestly consider how things change under different governments in the circumstances and timeframes those different governments operate under and reach the conclusion that there genuinely is no difference.

      But from my perspective, there is a clear difference in outcomes even while I'm disappointed in the glacial pace of progress. So my opinion is extremely low of those who do give up and then spend their time trying to undermine those who do have their hearts in the right place and are trying to do worthwhile things, however ineffectually.

  6. observer 6

    No sympathy for Clark from me. Anyone can stuff up, but Politics 101 says you get in front of it, fess up, minimise the damage. The bike ride – mistake, minor story, finished. But that was the time to come clean about anything else. He didn't. That's incompetence.

    So the PM has basically sacked him on a suspended sentence. Good. 

    • Treetop 6.1

      So the PM has basically sacked him on a suspended sentence. Good.

      No third time.

      Maybe some MPs need to be electronically monitored. Then the full extent of the overstepping will be known. This could be done randomly.

       

  7. pat 7

    "Clearly, New Zealand has gone quickly – but how early have we gone in comparison with other countries? Newsroom has compared New Zealand's response to that of six other countries that are similar in size, population, culture or region."

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2020/04/06/1117839/how-does-nzs-covid-19-response-stack-up-to-overseas

    Forget the politicking 

    • ianmac 7.1

      Yes Pat. A very interesting analysis. A must read. Seems to show NZ did the right thing and has the strongest case therefore for emerging post Level 4 into "normality."

    • bill 7.2

      Shame they didn't present the numbers in terms of per 1000 or some such. Raw numbers don't mean too much when populations and population density are so varied.

      • pat 7.2.1

        that info available here…

        https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

        We can criticise the minutiae of our response but I know where Id rather be right now

      • Psycho Milt 7.2.2

        Yes, that's bizarre. All their graphs are raw numbers, so obviously NZ with its tiny population is going to be lower than everyone else, and obviously that doesn't mean anything other than that we have a small population.  The cases and deaths per mil population in Pat's worldometer link is the relevant comparison figure.

        • Andre 7.2.2.1

          They're not all way out of line.

          Ireland is 4.9 million

          We're roughly 5.0 million.

          Norway is 5.4 million

          Singapore is 5.7 million

          Denmark is 5.8 million

          But yeah, Israel (9.2M), Sweden (10.3M) and Australia (25.7M) really need to be scaled otherwise the comparisons are kinda useless.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population

        • pat 7.2.2.2

          not obvious at all…the tracking is from initial infection and its growth pattern….population size is only relevant in that analysis in the ultimate total numbers not r nought

          • Andre 7.2.2.2.1

            That would be true if there were equal numbers of infection starting points in each country. But higher populations are generally correlated with higher numbers of travellers and therefore higher numbers of starting points brought in from outside.

            • pat 7.2.2.2.1.1

              the initial infection starts at one..or possibly a small cluster (flight or ship)…its path once identified is the critical factor…that may be impacted by pop density or lifestyle factors but not population size.

               

              • Andre

                Our initial infections did not start with one. There are multiple clusters with independent initiating infections.

                • pat

                  our initial detected infection was a single individual….as was the case in other countries. Now whether there were other undetected cases is likely however the data projects the pattern of growth from that point and it is the pattern that is key.

                   

                  • Incognito

                    About half of our cases (I don’t have the exact numbers at hand) was brought into the country. The other half is close contacts. Only 2% appears to be community spread. With the number of travellers dropping off, the growth was highly likely to level off too.

                    • pat

                      true enough and also likely the case for other countries….but what measures countries put in place are the main differential factor, certainly in similar environments

                    • pat

                      oh…and timing…we went earlier than most

          • McFlock 7.2.2.2.2

            Yeah that's fair. And Sweden and Aus have such different patterns that even dividing them by the relevant proportion would still have them significantly higher – and worsening – than NZ.

            Especially if you take them as all charts should be taken – we're "roughly the same as" Singapore, rather than succumbing to the urge to read it as an actual scorecard that says "we're doing better than everyone". All things considered, we're handling it a bit better than most (touch wood). Good on the govt.

        • Dawn Trenberth 7.2.2.3

          They do have a number per million so you can compare.   Also some such as the uk and Sweden are only testing those in hospital.  This means they are grossly under reporting.  Looking at number of deaths gives a better comparison and idea of numbers.

        • Paddington 7.2.2.4

          The link Pat provided https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ has a table that can sorted by population factor.  It's an excellent resource – one I've been watching for a while now.

      • Paddington 7.2.3

        Be careful going down that track…

    • Paddington 8.1

      Not sure it's so funny when he's the Minister of Health.  But I take your point.

  8. pat 9

    Strange times indeed….Winston in the best interaction with the media possibly in his long career….

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018741786/coronavirus-government-charters-flight-for-kiwis-in-peru

    The impossible can happen

  9. Andre 10

    Shortages of ventilators get the publicity. But putting someone on a ventilator requires a hefty supply of some heavy-duty substances and those are running short too. But there's been less attention to boosting the supply and cranking up the production might be even more difficult.

    https://www.vox.com/2020/4/6/21209589/coronavirus-medicine-ventilators-drug-shortage-sedatives-covid-19

    • ianmac 11.1

      A great summary Macro. Yet his recent approval rating of his handling of Covid is up at about 47% and disapproval about 37%. (Don't remember where I read that.)

      • Macro 11.1.1

        Pretty sure that is an outlying poll ianmac. While there was a little softening in disapproval after he belatedly changed tack from complete denial to some acceptance of danger facing the country that is slowly wearing off as the daily mismanagement of the crisis continues. It probaly also coincided with the final approval of the $1T “rescue” package

        I think the poll you might be remembering is this one

        https://www.investors.com/politics/americans-back-president-trump-on-coronavirus-crisis/

        This was the IBD/TIPP poll which gave him a 48% approval as opposed to a 44% disapproval rating. However, if you have a look at the myriad of polls run across the US on that question you can see that in almost all cases his disapproval rating is higher than his approval.

        https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/?ex_cid=rrpromo

        The running average of approval/disapproval by fivethirtyeight has him still at around 50% disapproval – the most favourable of his "presidency" but there are signs of growing disapproval in recent days. The running average takes a few days to reflect this trend.

        When the virus final hits the states with predominant MAGAT* support I think even the most fervent Trumpkin will begin to have doubts.

        *MAGA Trumpkin

    • Perhaps this could also apply to David Clark.

  10. ScottGN 12

    A rough timeline from The Guardian of events leading up to Johnson’s admission to hospital.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/06/the-strange-lead-up-to-boris-johnsons-admission-to-hospital

  11. Gabby 13

    I don't know that Demonic anticipated the virus moving through this part of the herd.

  12. Cinny 14

    I see NW is now banning reusable bags in store, personally we haven't been using them during the lockdown.

    Instead I've been taking the washing basket to the supermarket, leaving it in the car, but packing the groceries in it.

    A washing basket can handle quite a bit of weight and it's easy to wash or wipe down after use.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/120836693/new-world-shoppers-asked-to-leave-reusable-bags-in-the-car-during-lockdown

    Edit, I also spray all the groceries with anti bac spray before returning home, call me paranoid, but it makes me feel safe 🙂

    • Alice Tectonite 14.1

      What are people supposed to do when they don't have a car? 

      call me paranoid

      Been wiping all shopping with soapy water, unsure if that's reasonable or paranoid…

    • Treetop 14.2

      You are not alone in having had to change your shopping habits.

      A record for me changing any habit, (supermarket shopping).

      People have stopped bumping into each other.

    • Carolyn_Nth 14.3

      I also use some spray on shopping that arrives in my flat – usually in paper bags that have not been used before.  I leave most of it untouched for several hours, or put things that need to go in the fridge in bags I already have.

      The virus does weaken over time, and most of it dies after a few hours. It can last on plastic and stainless steel up to 2-3 days.

      I wash my hands a lot and wipe down stuff that can easily be wiped – but I think leaving things untouched for several hours, overnight, or for days (depending on what it is) is probably the way to go.

  13. Andre 15

    In case anyone else was wondering why the proportion of probable to confirmed cases rose significantly in recent days, it's because they have changed definitions and testing criteria.

    If you're in a bubble with someone that's infected and you start showing symptoms, you're now unlikely to be tested and you're automatically listed as probable and basically considered confirmed for the purposes of follow-up and treatment.

    https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/what-are-probable-cases-and-why-are-they-rising/ar-BB12emuK?li=BBqdg4K&ocid=mailsignout

  14. AB 16

    Let's acknowledge it. If the Democratic Party had decided to anoint Sanders as the 'electable' one after the Nevada caucus, he would now have just as commanding a lead in delegates as Biden currently enjoys. 'Electability', or otherwise, was never an inherent attribute of the candidates themselves, it was a narrative constructed about them by people with agendas. In the case of the establishment Democratic Party, that agenda was to protect their existing wealth and future income streams from corporate donors against the threat of the Sanders policy programme. And now it all unravels as Trump's approval  ratings increase (like all 'wartime' leaders) and Biden's manifest unfitness for the job becomes clear. Average bloke Joe Rogan with an extremely popular podcast now says he can't support Biden and would vote for Trump.The Democratic Party responds by blaming everyone other than themselves. Krystal and Sagar discuss here. Can you  ever trust affluent, socially liberal  centrists to do the right thing? 

    • joe90 16.1

      A racist misogynist is just an average bloke?

      • Morrissey 16.1.1

        1.) Could you provide some evidence to back up your contention that Joe Rogan is a "racist misogynist"?

        2.) Quoting Bernie out of context like "Paulina" has done is to grotesquely misrepresent him. "Paulina" sounds very like another liar, Elizabeth Warren.

      • Corey Humm 16.1.2

        Joe Rogans not a racist or a misogynist. You just disagree with him so you label him as such. He actually pretty good and has destroyed far more conservatives than he has liberals and socialists.

         

        I'm sick of politicals using out of context messages to label people things. The left is as bad as the right on this. 

  15. Reality 17

    Jacinda’s Easter Bunny’s essential occupation status has made a number of overseas media  outlets.  The comments section in one of the US ones was so full of praise for her.  How they envy our good fortune.

    A touch of brilliance from her to have a little bit of humour at this time.

  16. Barfly 18

    Be Warned

    I note that the National Party is going to absolutely do their best/worst to get elected….I believe DPF's April fools "joke" wasn't – simply a trial run of blatant lying targeting identified groups as a trial run for the election. I believe "third rail" dirty politics will be active in the election – big time.

    The National Party has lots of money to spend on the election ( CCP donations? devil ). I see two "fluff" articles in The Guardian one written by Bridges ans the other by what appears to be a fawning sycophant of the National Party where among other things we get told that Labour and National are both like the US Democrat Party among many other bizarre assertions . Now I do not believe this was at the The Guardian's initiative and I am disappointed the articles were not marked as paid advertorials. A National Party happy to throw money buying space in a nominally left publication to try sow confusion and disinformation is a measure of how far they will go.

    Then you have the National Party's media boosters – the Tova's , Hosk's Garner's and all yodeling "gotcha" every few minutes while they pretend ignorance of and have no interest of the garbage that the National Party gets up to.

     

    • bwaghorn 18.1

      He was sucking up large to farmers in the farmers weekly this week . 1st time of ever seen wandering bridges in that paper.

      Thought he was not going electioneering during the crisis!!?

  17. Janet 19

    Despite the fact that the borders to NZ should have been closed weeks ago, if for no reason other than that this virus was extremely unusual and puzzling to virologists ,Jacinda is still "thinking" about implementing quarantine at the border.

    On http://www.20min.ch today there is an article saying that a cat and a tiger in the Broncs zoo , New York , have become infected with Covid 19… 

    https://www.20min.ch/wissen/news/story/Haustiere-koennen-sich-doch-mit-Corona-infizieren-17059973

    Stop thinking Jacinda . just DO IT!

    • Incognito 19.1

      “Thinking” doesn’t mean flicking a coin ad nauseam but collecting information, considering options and consequences, making decisions that are evidence-based, planning & preparing, et cetera.

      • bill 19.1.1

        Is there a good reason not to do it?

        I mean, from my understanding of applying the precautionary principle, and especially given the apparent seriousness of covid, shouldn't that be the question?

        • Incognito 19.1.1.1

          Depends on what the “it” is. From where I’m sitting and from what I know, border control has to tighten if and when we go down to a lower Alert Level and attempt to some level of ‘normalisation’. Otherwise, it would be like mopping up water off the floor while the tap is still running. The Devil is in the detail, as always. Jumping up & down demanding “just DO IT!” is not helpful.

        • weka 19.1.1.2

          the logistics of housing, feeding and monitoring thousands of people, rolling numbers over time. Not saying it can't be done, but it's not a small thing either. eg if the police do the monitoring, they will have to be taken off other duties.

          Last time I looked we were quarantining anyone coming in with symptoms. Non-symptomatic people with appropriate self-isolation plans were checked and allowed to self-isolate. From memory the ratio was something like 1500 to 4,000 (someone can check that).

          • weka 19.1.1.2.1

            Numbers from five days ago

            • About 5100 arrivals to NZ from overseas in last week
            • 115 in quarantine, 1489 in supervised accommodation
            • About 3600 allowed to head home to self-isolate

            https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12321689

            See Koff's comment below about logistics.

            • bill 19.1.1.2.1.1

              So make the logistics fit capacity? Limiting inbound flights would achieve that. With "half the world" in lock-down, why or how are people still flying anyway?

              I would have stopped all incoming flights at the beginning and been done with it. Stuck in Azerbaijan? k.

              Hmm I guess there are maybe some folks (quite a few) who are kinda glad I'm not NZs dictator in charge or some such 🙂

              • Janet

                Yes , especially the self-indulgent ones that chose not to hurry home but have the expensive holiday they paid for some time ago !

              • weka

                Arden just said there were tens of thousands of NZers travelling overseas at the time they started putting restrictions on the border.

                The govt has an obligation to NZ citizens and residents, they can't just lock people out without a very good reason. A good reason might be an active epidemic that was killing lots of people here where there was no good way to prevent people coming in from not making that worse. Putting in a three tier system for Kiwis coming home seems entirely reasonable given the overall elimination strategy, and given they're increasing stringency over time as they are able to.

                Bloomfield has just said that around half of the new cases are coming from existing clusters, and that not many are coming from new arrivals. Looks like the number of border cases has dropped a lot.

                • Incognito

                  Good comment!

                  Bloomfield has just said that around half of the new cases are coming from existing clusters, and that not many are coming from new arrivals. Looks like the number of border cases has dropped a lot.

                  That’s good news. It is the community spread that we need to watch.

                • Anne

                  Thanks for the commonsense answer weka.

              • Koff

                That's just silly. There are hundreds of thousands of people all around the world who were stuck because of the speed of developments overtoo their ability to move. They couldn't just jump on the nearest flight to getback 'home.' In NZ there were two hundred thousand foreign tourists, and another four hundred thousand temporary workers who weren't at 'home'. If their countries did what you suggested, they would be stuck here presenting an enormous potential health problem, let alone being exceptionally cruel. There aren't any easy answers.It's far better for all people 'stuck' in places like Azerbaijan or New Zealand to get back to their real 'homes' in a safe and humane way. 

                • Incognito

                  yes

                • bill

                  There are hundreds of thousands of people all around the world who were stuck because of the speed of developments overtoo their ability to move

                  uh-huh. And?

                  Sorry. But my sympathies wouldn't really have been lying with some tens of thousands of people from NZ who were able to hob nob around the world – many or most of whom would have had ways and means – I'm sure they'd have been fine. And if any needed consular assistance or whatever, then fine – such assistance could have been provided.

                  As for thousands here from other countries, they could have left or stayed according to their preference and their country's policy around inbound flights. (Don’t quite get your health problem angle.)

                  Meanwhile, tens of thousands of people with no ways or means were on the streets right here in NZ with no home to go to.

                  So…tens of thousands extending their stay abroad so that a virus (or further instances of) wasn't introduced into the country, versus tens of thousands right here in dire need of shelter and protection from a virus. Hmm. Hard one.

                  Those abroad could have come back in dribs and drabs (availability of seats  means tested perhaps?) in line with border capabilities set around quarantine measures.

                  btw – Wonder how many PMC types took last minute flights out of NZ just to avoid lockdown? I bet there's a few. Which is fine. But quarantine rules "since forever" have been that you can leave a quarantined area whenever you want and at the drop of a hat. Re-entering? Not so willy-nilly on that front, aye?

    • ianmac 19.2

      Well Janet you might be cleverer than Jacinda but have a look on Newsroom where they chart NZ success compared to that of similar sized countries. Even so easy to read graphs.

      https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2020/04/06/1117839/how-does-nzs-covid-19-response-stack-up-to-overseas?utm_source=Friends+of+the+Newsroom&utm_campaign=fe1d7d9b0c-Daily+Briefing+03.4.20_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_71de5c4b35-fe1d7d9b0c-95522477

       

    • Koff 19.3

      If NZ brings in compulsory quarantining,it will have to be done more carefully than here in Australia, which brought in compulsory quarantining for all people flying in to international airports 10 days or so ago. (but not for Queensland residents driving acrossthe border from NSW where there is definite evidence of community transmission – just 'self-isolation for 2 weeks'. My partner and I are in the 4th day of a compulsory quarantining in a Brisbane hotel after flying in from Auckland last Friday with 20 others (half kiwis, half Aussies). Our 'home' is a nearby boat. We were crammed into a bus from the airport sitting close together within the 1.5m Aussie physical distancing rules. All OK since in the hotel, but it is not set up for self-contained living. That means that although we have been quarantined, we are still exposed to doubtful food and supplies from outside which is dropped outside our door. We clean what we can, but how do we know who has been handling it? We could be infected ourselves. Also, anecdotal reports about young quarantiners having parties in their hotel corridors and even waiters serving glasses of wine (in Sydney). None of these issues are insurmountable, but it does mean that just switching over to blanket quarantining isn't easy. Some proper planning has to go into it.

      • weka 19.3.1

        yep, this.

        Can you cook in your room?

        • indiana 19.3.1.1

          Some people are being put up in 5 star hotels at the expense of the Government.  Most of these rooms will not have anything but a coffee maker/hot water jug. 

          If NZ does the same for international arrivals, they should put them up in serviced apartments that have a small kitchenette.

          • Koff 19.3.1.1.1

            Very good point, Indiana. Seld-contained motels with kitchenettes are far better and a lot cheaper than the sort of useless 5 star swanky hotels like the one that we arein. The quarantining must go both ways if ALL incoming passenegrs are to be quarantined, not just those withsymptoms or do not have prope self-isoation plans as is the current policy in NZ. if you can cook yourself you can order stuff from Countdown or whoever and ake sure you can clean what you order and not get infected.Also, the quarantining must be policed (with kindness – we are not criminals!) otherwise it will be a farce.

            • weka 19.3.1.1.1.1

              How are you managing food atm then?

              Hotels are probably much easier to manage logistically, but the meals thing is really important, including for families with kids. Can't live on toast and coffee for very long.

              • Koff

                3 meals a day provided. Pretty crappy, but we won't starve. The point is we don't know who is preparing it – looks like it has been contracted out to a 'cheap' caterer. If it wasn't for the circumstances, we wouldn't think about it, but as we can't see or talk to the caterers or trust them to be virus free, we are basically sitting ducks!

                • weka

                  ooh, that's not good. You think it's not the normal hotel kitchen staff?

                  • Koff

                    The hotels that are offering quarantine faciities for the different state governments are closed to other guests so everything is closed down including their own kitchens. We haven't seen anyone since we got into the room. Can't get out or open the window. The food is left in bags outside the door and we have to wait for 10 seconds before retrieving them. We are not complaining, just emphasising that these circumstances are exceptional and everyone around the world, especially those in charge, are on a steep learning curve, so a bit of tolerance needed if things aren't perfect from the start.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      "…these circumstances are exceptional and everyone around the world, especially those in charge, are on a steep learning curve, so a bit of tolerance needed if things aren't perfect from the start.yes

  18. joe90 20

    thread

  19. The Aussie High Court has just quashed George Pell's sex abuse convictions. No reasoning given yet.

     

  20. joe90 22

    'Murica

  21. Treetop 24

    Saw on 1 News Cardinal Pell has had his conviction quashed.

    My thoughts go out to the person who tried to seek justice for having been offended against and that they have been second guessed. 

    Another consequence of sexual offending is that a conviction can be appealed. There needs to be stringent checks and balances for such appeals.

     

  22. joe90 25

    Now's the time.

    Spain, which has the biggest cluster of COVID-19 infections outside the U.S., will introduce universal basic income “as soon as possible” as part of its efforts to combat the economic effects of coronavirus, Economy Minister Nadia Calvino said on Sunday. Critically, the scheme is expected to be rolled out indefinitely.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/isabeltogoh/2020/04/06/spain-to-roll-out-permanent-universal-basic-income-soon/#1df26d05316f

  23. weka 26

    Ardern explains the three phases.

    1. outbreak
    2. linear increase in cases (which appears to be what is happening now, and is different from exponential increase)
    3. drop in the number of new cases

    around -24m mark of the livestream

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/413652/watch-live-number-of-new-covid-19-cases-drops-to-54

  24. observer 27

    Three National MPs physically travelled to Wellington for their committee meeting today. Shane Reti from Northland, Louise Upston from Taupo and Simon Bridges from Tauranga.

    • Muttonbird 27.1

      What's Shane Reti's excuse? The pidgeons take too long to fly?

      • observer 27.1.1

        Maybe the broadband National claim to have delivered for us wasn't so hot. Even in National seats.

        Steven Joyce must resign.

    • KJT 27.2

      Hope Reti runs into Hone's roadblock.

      Waiting for the week long chorus from the media,.

      Arrogant fuckwits.

    • ScottGN 27.3

      And that explains why none of them were terribly keen to have a go at Clark about the issue at Committee today. 

      • Treetop 27.3.1

        Probably treating it like a party caucus thing. Leader has to do the disciplining.

        Who will discipline Bridges?

        This is one aspect of being in the opposition where you can ride it out.

        • I Feel Love 27.3.1.1

          So Reti and the Taupo person drive all the way to Wellington to go to a Zoom meeting??? 

          • Treetop 27.3.1.1.1

            I see you do not mean zoom to Wellington, you mean zoom in Wellington.

            I cannot see anyone from Taupo on the Epidemic Response Committee.

            Louise Upston is the MP for Taupo.
             

  25. weka 28

    tracking spread.

  26. Muttonbird 29

    Jesus, if this isn't flat out abuse of the wage subsidy scheme. Imagine being one of the only businesses allowed to still operate and you pretend you're on hard times.

    Shame on these operators.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/120876197/new-world-stores-will-withdraw-claims-for-wage-subsidies

    • weka 29.1

      the city ones are taking the piss. Some of those small town four squares probably need it though, the drop in tourism will be hitting them hard.

  27. Herodotus 30

    Talk about diversions, we have a contributor wishing someone would die. Now our PM didn't have the foresight to Ask her Min of Health if there were any other instances of poor decision making, our Min of Health kept from the PM that he went on another trip as it wasn't evident to him until he reviewed his actions (my words)  and we get what some National MP's have done. Take ownership of flaws/screw ups.

    What many here IMO don't understand. People Vote for our PM, NOT Labour, People Vote for National NOT Simon Bridges.

    • "Now our PM didn't have the foresight to Ask her Min of Health if there were any other instances of poor decision making …"

      Pretty sure that's exactly what she asked him and why he fessed up. In these situations its normal to ask if there are any other similar instances and also to ask for the Ministerial diary to be checked.

      • Herodotus 30.1.1

        When he was asked by the PM when the bike ride emerged (I take it he was questioned ) this didn't trigger any recollection of his actions over the last week. Not having any idea what an MP/Minister includes in their diary, but I wouldn't think that such a trip would be included into his diary (as it was family related).  Most of us know what the rules are and I gather all (But a few idiots/privileged) when in doubt take the conservative (I know many here don't like this term 😱) approach. i.e. when in doubt … don't – The ramification are too great.

        • te reo putake 30.1.1.1

          The trip to the beach wouldn't have been in the diary, H, but hours put aside for personal matters would have been noted. That is, it wouldn't say what he did, just that he was off the clock for x number of hours. My presumption is that he was asked to fill in the blanks and when he thought back through his movements he realised he'd done more than just go out on the bike. At least he had the guts to be honest, and to tender his resignation. Plenty would have tried to bluff it out.

  28. Herodotus 31

    To assist those who don't understand the concept of keeping within your bubble

    ps Hope the EPL has completed (Liverpool win BUT more important another team escapes relegation)



  29. Ad 33

    Thanks for being awesome, Honor Blackman.

  30. Just lost the reply buttons again. Tried shift+F5 as advised the other day, and nothing changed.

    Edit: Posting this brought them back.

  31. Macro 35

    American democracy is in deep trouble .

    The Supreme Court’s Republican majority, in a case that is literally titled Republican National Committee v. Democratic National Committee, handed down a decision that will effectively disenfranchise tens of thousands of Wisconsin voters. It did so at the urging of the GOP.

    The case arises out of Wisconsin’s decision to hold its spring election during the coronavirus pandemic, even as nearly a dozen other states have chosen to postpone similar elections in order to protect the safety of voters. Democrats hoped to defend a lower court order that allowed absentee ballots to be counted so long as they arrived at the designated polling place by April 13, an extension granted by a judge to account for the brewing coronavirus-sparked chaos on Election Day, April 7. Republicans successfully asked the Court to require these ballots to be postmarked by April 7.

    All five of the Court’s Republicans voted for the Republican Party’s position. All four of the Court’s Democrats voted for the Democratic Party’s position.

    https://www.vox.com/2020/4/6/21211378/supreme-court-coronavirus-voting-rights-disenfranchise-rnc-dnc

    This decision has far reaching implications for the forthcoming Election in November which could well be held under similar conditions as the current State Election in Wisconsin. Furthermore the current election includes election of a State Supreme Court appointment. The importance of this is further explained in the article here:

    It’s also worth noting that, if Wisconsin had free and fair elections to choose its state lawmakers, Evers would most likely have been able to work with a Democratic legislature to ensure that Tuesday’s election would be conducted fairly. In 2018, 54 percent of voters chose a Democratic candidate for the state Assembly. But Republicans have so completely gerrymandered the state that they prevailed in 63 of the state’s 99 Assembly races.

    There is far more at stake in Wisconsin, moreover, than one state Supreme Court seat. Wisconsin could be the pivotal swing state that decides the 2020 presidential election. The question of whether Donald Trump or Joe Biden occupies the White House next year could easily be determined by which man receives Wisconsin’s electoral votes.

     

  32. Fireblade 36

    Judith offers advice to Bubbles Bridges and the National Party road rebels gang.

  33. Forget now 37

    I had been thinking that cleaning grocery items with bleach was going too far with shopping caution. It's enough of a juggling act getting it all from the trolley to car and home without the frozen or chilled stuff overheating and getting a weird consistency. Really rethinking that tonight.

     

    Kids (finally) settled down, I wasn't up to much thinking so went on YouTube. A new episode of an old favourite: WTFIWWY. Which does mock people for clicks; yes, but they often fully deserve the derision, and there is a rule against covering stupidity that results in injury to others. But it didn't prove much respite against the pecking of the Crow this time.

     

    The show's a week out of date by the time it gets out of Patron exclusivity, but not often addressing serious current issues, so that doesn't matter much to me. The toilet-seat lickers were bad enough, but this guy!

     

    Warning – you may feel a strong desire to claw your own eyes out rather than view this:

     

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2020/03/23/man-licks-toiletries-supermarket-asking-scared-coronavirus-12441271/amp/

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  • New Board appointed at Stats NZ
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  • New Principal Environment Judge
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    6 days ago
  • Digital connectivity boost for urban marae
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  • Govt increases assistance to drought-stricken Hawke’s Bay farmers
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  • Investment in New Zealand’s history
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  • Driving prompt payments to small businesses
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  • Rotorua tourist icon to be safeguarded
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  • $14.7m for jobs training and education
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  • Is it time to further recognise those who serve in our military?
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  • Paving the way for a fully qualified early learning workforce
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  • Sport Recovery Package announced
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  • Major boost in support for caregivers and children
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  • Great Walks recovery on track for summer
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  • Māori – Government partnership gives whānau a new housing deal
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  • Keeping New Zealanders Safe In The Water
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  • Legal framework for COVID-19 Alert Level referred to select committee
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  • New Zealand condemns shocking attacks on hospital and funeral in Afghanistan
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  • Government to close tobacco tax loophole
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  • $62 million package to support families through the Family Court
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  • Tailored help supports new type of job seeker – report
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  • A modern approach to night classes
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  • Christchurch Call makes significant progress
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  • Christchurch Call: One year Anniversary
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  • Budget 2020: Jobs and opportunities for the primary sector
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  • New registration system for forestry advisers and log traders
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