Open mike 07/09/2022

105 comments on “Open mike 07/09/2022 ”

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1. Sabine 1

   7 September 2022 at 7:37 am

   oh well…….i guess someone will send an apology to the Non-Penishavers that were slandered as gang bangers and prostitutes’ and drug runners. In fact, it was WINZ that fucked up.
   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/covid-19-outbreak-blunder-in-wellington-let-women-into-northland-and-shut-the-region-for-11-days/D3OIYTFMDOSWGRYBTHFO2VY7JQ/

   A blunder by a government worker sent Northland into an 11-day lockdown after travel documents that were meant to be declined were mistakenly approved.

   The case of three women who travelled from Auckland to Northland hit headlines in October 2021 in the midst of a Delta outbreak – but new documents released under the Official Information Act finally outline the truth behind the saga, and the reason Northland was put into lockdown.

   The OIA papers show the women – who had earlier been blamed for using "false information" to get travel permits – had no links to gangs and weren't sex workers, as had been suggested.

   Among the documents released is a summary of a police investigation into the women which found "no offence" and no "deception" in obtaining the travel documents.

   Detective Inspector Aaron Proctor's summary of "Operation Hiking" quoted an email from the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment which said the travel documents were "issued in error by the Ministry of Social Development, (the error not being the fault of the applicant)".

   Another document showed it was known three days before the 11-day lockdown was announced on October 8 that human error was behind the travel documents being granted to the women.

   snip……..
   Minister for Social Development Carmel Sepuloni said she was briefed at the time.

   “I understand that the information contained in the application wouldn’t have met the criteria at the time and it was approved in error.

   “I’ve spoken to MSD officials who are very sorry this occurred. Overall MSD staff assessing business travel register applications for travel across borders during lockdown did a great job, and while this incident was an isolated one, it should not have happened.”

   How many more of these stories will come out?

   And again, the point is not the lock down. The point is that these people were vilified, slandered, defamed, and in part by a government that could not admit to the public that a Winz Drone provided travel documents by mistake – the Winz Drone mistake.

   And dear Carmel Sepuloni, YOU should apologize on behalf of your ministry to these People that were slandered and vilified in public by government employees, the press and the public .
   • Jimmy 1.1

     7 September 2022 at 7:52 am

     Another day, another fuck up comes to light. No wonder they do not want an enquiry in to the Covid response.
     • Bearded Git 1.1.1

       7 September 2022 at 1:10 pm

       Another day another old story dug up to attack Labour with even though it wasn't their fault on the information available at the time.
   • Anne 1.2

     7 September 2022 at 10:23 am

     To be fair, Sepuloni was briefed at the time but she may not have been told of the "blunder" by the Social Welfare ministry worker. That information appears to have come to light further down the track.

     Even so, I agree Sepuloni needs to formally apologise to the young women concerned. They must be deeply scarred by the experience. They will have to carry the ignominy of being charged by public opinion as gang related prostitutes which is effectively what happened. Racism was also up there from the start.

     Believe me, sweeping embarrassing situations under metaphorical carpets is par for the course when it comes to some government agencies. It has been going on for decades. The plight of the unsuspecting victim or victims is not considered to be of any consequence. Indeed they often are – or were – bullied into silence.

     I hope those young women receive compensation for what they've been through.
     • AB 1.2.1

       7 September 2022 at 11:04 am

       Thanks Anne for providing an absolute model of how to respond rationally to these sorts of inevitable administrative cock-ups and the ensuing (but not inevitable) cover-ups. There is a way of criticising Labour from the left that does not give succour and support to the right-wing Jimmies (1.1) who will leverage it to discredit any progressive policy or intentions. In this case, the right-wing Jimmies will try and use it to re-write history and trash the best overall Covid response in the western world.
       • Anne 1.2.1.1

         7 September 2022 at 11:25 am

         Thanks AB.

         Chris Hipkins sums up what happened very well in this morning's stand up with Jacinda Ardern and others:

         https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-to-explain-govt-blunder-that-led-to-northland-lockdown/4LOTIORD7EGBRDETVUW3JR5P3I/
     • Patricia Bremner 1.2.2

       7 September 2022 at 1:45 pm

       Yes and Press that enlarged the story should also apologise.
   • Stephen D 1.3

     7 September 2022 at 10:59 am

     I may be wrong, but I don’t remember any Govt spokesperson calling out the women for their reasons heading north.
     A citation would be useful.
     • Anne 1.3.1

       7 September 2022 at 11:37 am

       It was the media who were making the 'inferences' during the blanket coverage at the time. Chris Hipkins was repeating the official line he had been given… that the young women had not been truthful about their reasons for travel. He reacted the same way as the rest of the country by expressing his "disappointment" with them – just did it a little more diplomatically than the rest of us.

       We now know through the inquiry that was not correct. The fault lay fairly and squarely with the Social Welfare ministry and so it looks like it is they who should be apologising and recompensing the young women concerned.
       • Anne 1.3.1.1

         7 September 2022 at 2:44 pm

         I should qualify my comment above by placing the responsibility for the apology on Social Welfare minister, Carmel Sepuloni which is what I said @ 1.2. That is the correct procedure. It should have happened before now, but I guess it would be better late than never.
     • Belladonna 1.3.2

       7 September 2022 at 1:24 pm

       Hipkins did

       “My understanding at this point – and I want to be clear this is not yet verified – is that this person obtained a document by providing false information in order to get the document to travel across the border,” Hipkins said.

       https://www.1news.co.nz/2021/10/08/covid-case-who-visited-northland-uncooperative-may-have-lied-to-travel-hipkins/

       I can't find any media statement where he corrected this information – on or after the 13th of October, when his office had a briefing, telling them that it was a bureaucratic error, rather than deliberate deception.

       This led to the October 13 briefing from MBIE to Hipkins, Finance Minister Grant Robertson and Regional Development Minister Stuart Nash. The briefing said: "It is our understanding that the intention was to decline the application but it was approved in error."

       https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/covid-19-outbreak-blunder-in-wellington-let-women-into-northland-and-shut-the-region-for-11-days/D3OIYTFMDOSWGRYBTHFO2VY7JQ/
       • Incognito 1.3.2.1

         7 September 2022 at 1:45 pm

         "There was a degree of error in the approval in the first place," Hipkins said.

         The mistake in granting the exemption was corrected but only after the pair had crossed the border.

         https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/covid-19/453437/chris-hipkins-on-alert-level-decisions-border-exemption-error [9:32 am on 13 October 2021]
   • weka 1.4

     7 September 2022 at 11:01 am

     I'd also like to know how they were accused of fraud, having gang connections and being prostitutes. Where did that come from?
     • Sabine 1.4.1

       7 September 2022 at 11:08 am

       From the article linked in my above comment.

       The women were publicly vilified for crossing the border with then Covid-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins accusing them of using "false information to travel across the border".

       The case also saw reporters quizzing Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern over whether the women were prostitutes and former Deputy Prime Minister Winston Peters was forced to apologise for falsely claiming the pair were helped by Hawke's Bay-based Mongrel Mob leader Harry Tam.

       The police inquiry summary said: "The police investigation found no evidence to suggest that (the women) had any connection to Harry Tam, the Mongrel Mob or were involved in prostitution."

       this might be a better article on this issue as it is not behind pay wall.

       https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/politics/covid-19-outbreak-blunder-in-wellington-let-women-into-northland-and-shut-the-region-for-11-days/
       • Stephen D 1.4.1.1

         7 September 2022 at 11:31 am

         So Winston was shit stirring. But he isn’t and wasn’t a member of the Govt.
         • Sabine 1.4.1.1.1

           7 September 2022 at 11:32 am

           Yes, he was.

           And Hipkins accused them of fraud.

           So that was some shitstirring too considering it was a Winz Drone that got it wrong. But then its easy to accuse beneficiaries of fraud as that always provides a nice scapegoat behind the short comings of highly paid public servants can be hidden.
           • Incognito 1.4.1.1.1.1

             7 September 2022 at 11:47 am

             You’re shit stirring yourself, as you have no idea how much the person is or was paid who made the error. It is utterly irrelevant anyway.
           • Stephen D 1.4.1.1.1.2

             7 September 2022 at 11:53 am

             The election was at the end of 2020. All this happened in October 2021. Winston was long gone from Govt.
         • Louis 1.4.1.1.2

           7 September 2022 at 10:35 pm

           Stephen D
     • Sabine 1.4.2

       7 September 2022 at 11:31 am

       government response here

       https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/chris-hipkins-defends-northland-lockdown-amid-calls-for-responsibility-over-govt-blunder/4LOTIORD7EGBRDETVUW3JR5P3I/

       Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern referred questions on the Government blunder that sent Northland into an 11-day lockdown to former Covid Minister Chris Hipkins.

       New documents released under the Official Information Act have revealed the truth about the highly publicised case of three women who travelled from Auckland to Northland in October 2021 in the midst of a Delta outbreak, putting Northland into an alert level 3 lockdown.

       The OIA papers show the women – who had earlier been blamed for using "false information" to get travel permits – had no links to gangs and weren't sex workers, as had been suggested, and their permit had been approved in error.

       Hipkins claimed there was nothing new in today's reporting as the error that led to the Northland lockdown in October last year was made public.
       • Anne 1.4.2.1

         7 September 2022 at 12:41 pm

         So, Sabine you are happy for the government's opponents including the right wing media to milk the inquiry findings in order to create the perception that it was…

         all this evil government's fault n' the ministers are to blame n' we hate em so's we're going to trash em for all they're worth and forget the two women at the centre cos they don't count.

         You are doing exactly what AB @1.2.1 notes should not happen:

         … criticising Labour from the left that gives succour and support to the right-wing Jimmies (1.1) who will leverage it to discredit…

         I wrote a comment initially in support of your stand, but of you think the above tactic is going to be helpful to the young women concerned then you are wrong.
       • Louis 1.4.2.2

         7 September 2022 at 10:34 pm

         The following backs Hipkins

         "The claims, along with other allegations about the woman, have been widely circulated on social media, text and email but have not been confirmed by officials or the Government.

         The Ministry of Health has not commented on the claims and Covid-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins told a hastily arranged press conference last night that he did not have information to suggest the woman was connected to a gang.

         A reporter at the press conference said they had been told the woman is a sex worker but Hipkins said he could not confirm that – he had not been briefed that was the case"

         'Winston Peters' TV claims – woman at centre of Northland scare 'connected to Mongrel Mob'

         https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-winston-peters-tv-claims-woman-at-centre-of-northland-scare-connected-to-mongrel-mob/IUAPS4YERU4NNAPSCI2YOCLWVM/
         • Anne 1.4.2.2.1

           8 September 2022 at 12:14 am

           However, locations of interest were limited to two service stations as the woman had been "uncooperative" with authorities in determining her movements in the region, according to Hipkins.

           Of course they were uncooperative. They were scared witless. The authorities were intimidating in their attitude and they ran away and hid.

           I don't blame Hipkins. He couldn't possibly have known exactly what was going on. He was repeating what he had been told. Everyone assumed they were guilty and when a bunch of arseholes are spreading false stories via social media and a former deputy leader repeats them as being for real, then it is only going to make matters worse.

           I can understand why these two women seem to think it was the government's fault, but the real culprits were a) the ministry for attempting to play down the error and b) the social media 'bottom feeders’ along with Winston Peters who picked up the crap and ran with them.

           Even though we now know Govt. ministers were not to blame, I hope they will still offer them a full apology on behalf of those who were responsible for their plight.
           • gsays 1.4.2.2.1.1

             8 September 2022 at 5:53 am

             Anne, given any thought to the question I asked you on Open Mike 31/7/22?
             • Anne …

               8 September 2022 at 9:53 am

               Wouldn't have a clue what you asked me on the 31st.
               • gsays …

                 8 September 2022 at 3:09 pm

                 "

                 …. a Health Minister repeatedly getting offside with the workforce while trying to reform (rebrand) the system.

                 Uggh? The other way round imo."

                 Do you mind expanding a little on that Anne?

                 My reckons have it health staff have gone above and beyond the last 8 or so years and in particular the last 33 months, especially front line staff.
                 • Anne …

                   8 September 2022 at 5:27 pm

                   Sorry can't answer because it is not in the context of whatever the conversation was about. One thing I can say: it was NOT referring to front line health staff. What I have witnessed – including a few days in hospital earlier this year – they have gone above and beyond. All of them deserve gongs.
   • Peter 1.5

     7 September 2022 at 3:36 pm

     I want to know who was vilified, slandered, defamed. Can you give me their names so I won't vilify, slander and defame them?

     Does anyone know what Chris Bishop said about them at the time?
   • gsays 1.6

     7 September 2022 at 5:57 pm

     This reminds me if what Celia Lashlie wrote about in reference to people (usually mothers) who become involved with state agencies.

     The individual is closely held to account and made responsible for every transgression or omission, and yet, MSD, WINZ, Police, IRD etc can be incorrect. Often leading to dire consequences for the people at the bottom of the heap and never be held to the same scrutiny.

     Violence always goes down a hierarchy.
     • Anne 1.6.1

       8 September 2022 at 10:01 am

       Totally agree. Have witnessed it happen to others and have also been on the receiving end. For decades there was a left/right divide too. If you were on the 'right' then a blind eye was turned on your transgressions. If you were 'left' then the lights were shone on your every move.
2. PsyclingLeft.Always 2

   7 September 2022 at 8:12 am

   The increase since the end of the last ice age has been so fast that on this time scale, it looks practically instantaneous.

   Methane had its largest annual increase, and nitrous oxide its third largest.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/473949/most-c02-in-atmosphere-in-nearly-a-million-years

   Greenhouse gas emissions fell during lockdowns – Stats NZ

   Household emissions fell in most regions of New Zealand between 2019 and 2021, the result less use of transport during Covid-19 restrictions, Stats NZ says

   Where did emissions increase the most?

   Stats NZ said the Canterbury increase was largely from agriculture, forestry, and fishing (up 6.5 percent), and most significantly because the number of dairy cattle had increased.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/474247/greenhouse-gas-emissions-fell-during-lockdowns-stats-nz

   First Link.CO2 increase bad enough..but the Methane and NO2 increase are a clear danger.

   Second Link. Well….not too hard to see that reduced cars on roads….(often stuck in jams) would lead to less polluting gases. Sad that ..as lockdowns ended people just reverted back. Even with huge fuel increases….

   And the Dairy cattle. Not going to end until…

   https://www.renews.co.nz/series/milk-and-money-the-true-cost-of-dairy-in-aotearoa/
   • DB Brown 2.1

     7 September 2022 at 8:17 am

     They simply can't imagine a world without power cows and oil.
     • Sabine 2.1.1

       7 September 2022 at 8:22 am

       Why the fuck should we be having more rights to existance then cows? What other animal could we cull in order to save our overconsuming, lazy asses? Horses? Pigs? Dogs? Hedgehogs? Squirrels? Buffalo? Crickets? Bees? Flying insects (mind we done a good job here already).

       The problem really is that most humans can't imagine a world in which they don't have electricity to squander, they don't have supermarket full of shit that is not good for their bodies but nicely packaged, that they don't be able to pull a boat/bikes/gadgets from the North Island to the south Island for some biking on some new track in some nice natural parks for leisure and so on and so forth.

       Maybe we cull half of humanity, and safe the cows. Cows have never harmed anyone. Also, cows don't need oil, dumb arse human beings do.
       • PsyclingLeft.Always 2.1.1.1

         7 September 2022 at 8:25 am

         Wow.
       • Blazer 2.1.1.2

         7 September 2022 at 8:47 am

         But the cow population has exploded because humans want to milk them…for all they're…worth!
         • Sabine 2.1.1.2.1

           7 September 2022 at 9:15 am

           That is right. Profit for humans, human governments etc etc etc.

           Again, nothing that the cow should be carrying responsibility for, and nothing for which cows should be culled / exterminated/ kept in a zoo to preserve the species. They are the exploited natural being. Humans in their zeal for more are the exploiters, polluters and world killers.
       • DB Brown 2.1.1.3

         7 September 2022 at 8:51 am

         That's twice in a week you've called for the culling of people.

         Unhinged.

         How about you try cleaning up your diet those prions seem to be taking hold.
         • weka 2.1.1.3.1

           7 September 2022 at 9:02 am

           she's not calling for the culling of people. She's using hyperbole to point out the problems with humans.
           • Sabine 2.1.1.3.1.1

             7 September 2022 at 9:11 am

             DB Brown knows full well what i am saying. But hey, him/her/they being hyperbole about me gives them the excuse to actually not comment on the fact that I am blaming human overconsumption and the need for new shit every other day rather then cows, who are the most unlikely beast on this planet to harm anyone.

             The world ruining predator is US, humans and their need to need more in order to feel fullfilled.
           • DB Brown 2.1.1.3.1.2

             7 September 2022 at 9:13 am

             "Maybe we cull half of humanity" – gimme a break. She's doing exactly what I said.
             • DB Brown …

               7 September 2022 at 9:15 am

               And apparently I'm looking for excuses.

               A fucking bore and an idiot.
               • Sabine …

                 7 September 2022 at 9:20 am

                 hahahahahahahaha

                 thanks for the laugh.

                 cheers.
               • Shanreagh …

                 7 September 2022 at 10:18 am

                 Hey RB just an idea. Why not brush up on figures and mechanisms of speech – you know metaphor, irony, sarcasm, alliteration before you try to derail an argument (because that is what you are doing) with some careless rigid approach.

                 Consider reading poetry or Shakespeare. There are more ways of expressing oneself and making an impact than a bare recitation of facts.

                 Consider Churchill from his speech to the House of Commons on 4/6/1940

                 '…

                 I have, myself, full confidence that if all do their duty, if nothing is neglected, and if the best arrangements are made, as they are being made, we shall prove ourselves once again able to defend our Island home, to ride out the storm of war, and to outlive the menace of tyranny, if necessary for years, if necessary alone. At any rate, that is what we are going to try to do. That is the resolve of His Majesty’s Government-every man of them. That is the will of Parliament and the nation. The British Empire and the French Republic, linked together in their cause and in their need, will defend to the death their native soil, aiding each other like good comrades to the utmost of their strength. Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God’s good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old.'

                 So memorable that my mother could recite this last paragraph, right down to intonation until the end of her life in 2010 ……from hearing on the radio in 1940.
                 • weka …

                   7 September 2022 at 10:38 am

                   well said. Sabine's style of political discourse is challenging but rewarding imo if one makes the effort at understanding.
                   • weka …

                     7 September 2022 at 10:39 am

                     and that's true when I'm agreeing or disagreeing with her.
                 • DB Brown …

                   7 September 2022 at 11:56 am

                   Last time she went on a genocidal rant I believe it was prompted by my mentioning making cheese from fermented cashews. Or maybe it was cows again. It was in recent memory. And long term, it's not so much a debating style as an unhinged asshole venting their spleen. We all vent, sometimes.

                   I just spent the morning mulching weed species to plant productive tree species. My 'green' neighbor makes some snide comment about what we determine to be weeds, as if the privet will feed us.

                   Sometimes I really can't be fucked with stupid. I don't need to be told off for not engaging with such nonsensical ranting. Sabine's points on climate are as new to me as climate change itself.
                   • PsyclingLeft.Always …

                     7 September 2022 at 12:42 pm

                     Hi DB Brown. Sounds like you walk the talk into Positive action. Always the best way. Oh I did see you and Stuart Munro talking about Black Soldier fly? Interesting!

                     There was a Country Calendar episode on Regenerative Farming ..and Dung Beetles

                     https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/tv-guide/120945963/country-calendar-regenerative-farming-reaps-benefits-at-linnburn-station

                     Do you have Tiger worms ? They are voracious…eat old veges, leaves, grass clippings,cardboard, even carpet ! Turns all into fantastic compost…..can even get the liquid out as it is a super growth formula !
                   • DB Brown …

                     7 September 2022 at 3:18 pm

                     I'm not sure what worms are currently in the compost bin, though I've done a bit of worm wrangling before. I like those fast shiny native ones, good lookin' – for worms.

                     I'm keen on the more food forest approach of mulching in place and letting the critters make compost on the spot. The compost bin is simply convenient (throw scraps out window, scraps land in bin). But in drought mulch simply wasn't breaking down so plants weren't getting compost… Climate change is one MF'er of a challenge! Now we've had some wet it's better. I only lost a couple of trees to drought which is great considering I didn't water (swales to soak water in). Harvesting bananas that haven't been watered in a drought – LOL. That's pushing the edge.

                     I will irrigate some of my new trees, sparingly, as I don't want to lose my avocados (again).

                     The large privet I just dropped are still alive. They'll get coppiced and used for fuel (outdoor rocket stove summers), mushroom logs (only Tramates so far, but experimenting with four local edibles with this new lot of wood), garden poles, landscaping logs… They can stay on the perimeter and provide shelter/goods till I'm ready to replace them with something 'better'.

                     Got too much wood right now. Might make a big hugelkultur though they're very labor intensive they do build fantastic soil.

                     I've written a paper on privet's uses, it got people mighty upset. CULL that shit too apparently. The purists are pointlessly spouting ideals that no longer apply, everything's changing, keep up!

                     Only four hours food foresting today. Back inside for a nice dahl and… I just harvested, today… some kumara! Crazy but true. Harvested kumara and at the same time rooting kumara slips for the next crop. To get them real late (yet small and edible) put slips under tree drip lines in poor hard soil so they've competition for (and few) resources. They'll take all year to make you lovely wee baby kumara.

                     The Botanical Gardens on Saturday has the Auckland Tree Crop Association Annual Sale, for anyone who wants some great deals/variety/tips. I'm way excited. Clear out the bank balance and got the mate engaged with his truck.

                     A food forest, and place to teach from, that's the plan. Blame Robert if we're to yell at anyone.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     7 September 2022 at 4:03 pm

                     I'll shoulder the blame, no worries 🙂

                     "Mulching in place" – yes x a million – it's so elegant! Hard to watch though, over the fence.

                     Don't chip; prune, chop, snap and crunch underfoot, as if you were a bear or an elk.

                     I envy you the "Auckland Tree Crop Association Annual Sale" – if only!

                     Brought pigeon pea plants yesterday. Cajanus cajan. Excited! Dividing and relocating various bamboos today. Love it. The bananas are throwing out their first post-winter leaves and cannas are pushing through. I love this stuff 🙂
                   • DB Brown …

                     7 September 2022 at 4:43 pm

                     Yes I'm very excited about the sale. Almost perfect timing except there's a months work down back not 2-3 weeks as I'd planned. But they will be fine sitting under the macadamia while I finish the mulch/landscaping. Close to perfect timing…

                     I have a slope downhill to the west. I'm planning tall species at back (right up to the native bush) medium in centre and small/shrubs at the top. So there's a level canopy and you walk down the hill till you are under a canopy of food. This is an extension to an existing garden/forest garden which provides much for me, I couldn't be happier except for the huge workload up front! Could call a working bee but nah, just get fit.

                     Huge Karaka stand right behind where the food forests going too. For those in the know, there'll be no shortages here.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     7 September 2022 at 5:27 pm

                     Karaka – nice – prepare carefully!
                     (I have them growing here, in Southland 🙂
                 • Ad …

                   7 September 2022 at 12:10 pm

                   Complaining about commentators not rising to the heights of Shakespeare or Churchill in an age of Twitter is just a bit silly.

                   Best to apply facts with comments that are testable.

                   Otherwise, OpenMike just is what it is.
                   • Shanreagh …

                     7 September 2022 at 6:59 pm

                     I disagree…….it was a plea not to be so literal when we have a beautiful language to use. The point too was being so literal actually missed the point that was being made by Sabine.

                     Who wants to be a slave to Twitter? Or, as my sister says, have brains the size of the tiny screen in front of us? Why do we need to even think of doing this in this forum?
             • weka …

               7 September 2022 at 9:56 am

               oh, so you're a literalist? I hadn't picked that.
               • Incognito …

                 7 September 2022 at 10:41 am

                 Ecofascism is a thing, and, among other things, it proposes various ways of population control some of which even go as far as culling [certain] people. It is no joke, no metaphor, irony, sarcasm, or alliteration; it is serious.

                 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecofascism
                 • weka …

                   7 September 2022 at 10:52 am

                   I know what ecofascism is, but Sabine isn't an ecofascist and people reading her comment literally are misinterpreting what she is saying.

                   Maybe an argument can be made that this kind of mockery shouldn't be done, but that's a different argument.
                   • Incognito …

                     7 September 2022 at 11:18 am

                     I have no idea what Sabine is or is not, as I don’t know her, have never met her, and only read her comments here on TS. Her commenting & debating style can be aggressive, acerbic, antagonistic, and acrimonious at times, IMO. Others could easily mistake her comment about culling people as an ecofascist argument, particularly when it is poorly articulated with little explanatory context and no nuance – you know how hard it can be for people to clearly state here what they mean (e.g., https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-03-09-2022/#comment-1908901). Anywho, that’s it from me on this.
                   • weka …

                     7 September 2022 at 11:45 am

                     touche. Although I think Sabine is pretty direct. I do know her, from her comments and talking with her online over the years. I guess she would be an ecofascist and playing double game but I prefer to take people at face value.

                     And yes, it does take some work to understand her at times, which is why I made a point of pointing this out to DB. I don't think her point is poorly articulated, I think her commenting style is outside the bell curve of what is usual here. I count that as a good thing. If people are unclear they can always ask.
                 • Poission …

                   7 September 2022 at 10:55 am

                   The cull (population reduction) is part of the SRES emission scenarios,it requires the human population to cap at 8 billion,then reduce to 6 billion by 2100.

                   There is also a widespread increase in Eco anxiety ( mostly due to decreased Fe transport of O2 brain) a side effect of the prozac generation and increase in the size of social studies faculty's and decrease in STEM ability.

                   https://www.iberdrola.com/social-commitment/what-is-ecoanxiety
                   • weka …

                     7 September 2022 at 10:58 am

                     I assume that the IPCC didn't use the word cull though, which by definition means slaughter.
                   • Poission …

                     7 September 2022 at 11:05 am

                     No the EU just restricted european investment ( not in gas production or lng) but in ammonia production,by technology transfer constraints in Africa.
                   • Incognito …

                     7 September 2022 at 11:25 am

                     Eco-fascism ≠ eco-anxiety

                     However, there might be a relatively strong correlation between the two, and even causation.

                     I recommend hyperbaric oxygen chamber treatment once daily for 6 weeks and gradually lowering the dose of any mood-altering substances.
       • Pingao 2.1.1.4

         7 September 2022 at 9:02 am

         Reduce cow herd size by reducing cow breeding of new stock. Certainly stop the ever increasing cow population across the world at the expense of other animals (including insects, birds, fish) plants and terrestrial and aquatic ecosystems and reduce greenhouse gas emissions (methane and coal burning at the dairy production end).
         • Sabine 2.1.1.4.1

           7 September 2022 at 9:12 am

           Ethical animal husbandry would be a nice thing to see promoted. Ethical farming – in any aspect – would be a nice thing to see promoted.
         • Robert Guyton 2.1.1.4.2

           7 September 2022 at 10:35 am

           Agreed, pingao.

           Return the bulk of New Zealand farmland to woodland; manage it for "food'n'fibre" (mahingakai) and provide space and opportunity for people to live and work, create community and contribute to the health of the planet 🙂
         • AB 2.1.1.4.3

           7 September 2022 at 11:26 am

           Yes. And dairy farmers already cull cows for multiple reasons – such as low production, failure to conceive and produce offspring and susceptibility to disease. Those who call for a reduction in cow population are not advocating some new mass slaughter that does not already occur – it does. Cow number reduction would occur through exactly these same mechanisms – as well as regulatory restrictions preventing new dairy conversions from other land uses.
           • Robert Guyton 2.1.1.4.3.1

             7 September 2022 at 11:42 am

             Let's not mention bobby calves and hammers.
         • RosieLee 2.1.1.4.4

           7 September 2022 at 11:56 am

           Reduce cow herds to the size ones land can sustain. Ban the use of palm kernel.
           • PsyclingLeft.Always 2.1.1.4.4.1

             7 September 2022 at 12:23 pm

             In 1990 there were only 40,000 dairy cows in all of Southland. Only 30 years later there are over 600,000.

             https://www.1news.co.nz/2021/07/28/why-i-made-milk-and-money-a-series-about-the-cost-of-dairy/

             Seems to be the Kernel of it
             • Poission …

               7 September 2022 at 4:30 pm

               in 1990 there were around 9 million sheep now around 3 million.
               • PsyclingLeft.Always …

                 7 September 2022 at 4:57 pm

                 Dairy cattle numbers increased by 82 percent nationally from 3.4 million to 6.3 million

                 Between 1990 and 2019

                 Southland dairy cattle increased sixteen-fold (1,584 percent) from 38,000 to 636,000. beef cattle decreased by 15.3 percent nationally from 4.6 million to 3.9 million. sheep decreased by 53.6 percent nationally from 57.9 million to 26.8 million.15/04/2021

                 https://www.stats.govt.nz/indicators/livestock-numbers

                 Even though Merino wool..and sheep meat, there is more money….in milk.
                 • Poission …

                   7 September 2022 at 5:26 pm

                   Southland destocked by 6 million ovine stock units,(since 1990) increased bovine by 600 k,what is the differential in carrying capacity?
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     7 September 2022 at 5:32 pm

                     Did the total hectarage of farmland change at all?

                     Was more land retired to biodiverse woodland and wetland?

                     Or did we spray and pray?
                   • Poission …

                     7 September 2022 at 5:38 pm

                     A reduction in land use probably as exotic tree planting by foreigners to offset their lignite use in Sweden and Germany seems to be the new esg rainbow.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     7 September 2022 at 6:50 pm

                     Paying to plant trees in other countries seems to be New Zealand's favoured option as well.

                     Wonder what the folk living in those countries think about that?
                   • psych nurse …

                     7 September 2022 at 6:51 pm

                     Four million two hundred thousand stock units. So there was a higher carrying capacity with sheep.
                   • Poission …

                     7 September 2022 at 6:53 pm

                     PN Though that may be the case.
               • Blazer …

                 7 September 2022 at 5:49 pm

                 3 million?

                 You forgot to add…circa 5million to the..total.
                 • Poission …

                   7 September 2022 at 5:57 pm

                   Read it again.
                 • pat …

                   7 September 2022 at 6:20 pm

                   ovine = sheep
                   • Blazer …

                     8 September 2022 at 8:40 am

                     Yes,but sometimes humans are referred to as…'sheep'….we have a team…of…
                   • pat …

                     8 September 2022 at 8:44 am

                     Ah…i see, very good.

                     You are quite possibly correct.
               • Stuart Munro …

                 7 September 2022 at 7:25 pm

                 Might be missing a zero there, friend.

                 As of June 2021, there were approximately 25.97 million sheep in New Zealand, ~ https://www.statista.com/statistics/974492/new-zealand-sheep-livestock-numbers/#:~:text=As%20of%20June%202021%2C%20there,million%20sheep%20in%20the%20country.
                 • Poission …

                   7 September 2022 at 7:39 pm

                   talking about southland
           • Robert Guyton 2.1.1.4.4.2

             7 September 2022 at 1:01 pm

             Palm kernel, yes, palm oil also.

             Reduce cow herd size to … whatever cow herd sizes were pre-domestication 🙂
       • alwyn 2.1.1.5

         7 September 2022 at 9:49 am

         "Cows have never harmed anyone".

         That may be true Sabine but to keep them in existence you need bulls as well. Bulls have certainly harmed lots of people. Indeed I have never yet met a farmer who would turn his back on a bull. They can attack with no warning at all.
         • Sabine 2.1.1.5.1

           7 September 2022 at 10:03 am

           Good grief, the first thing we learned as little kids on the country side was that: Do not enter any paddocks/stalls of any lifestock without competent handlers. I.e. farmers, farm hands. That included goats, cows, pigs, horses, ponies, and also…..stay away from bee hives. Ditto if you don't know the dog, don't touch/pet it, you might lose a hand. lol. Heck, some even put signs up for the townies and tourists that came for the good air cause humans are actually quite stupid.
         • Tricledrown 2.1.1.5.2

           7 September 2022 at 2:36 pm

           clyptosporidium, nitrates from industrial dairy farming are killing people.Bowel cancer rates increasing in areas where intensified dairy farming areas.
       • Robert Guyton 2.1.1.6

         7 September 2022 at 10:21 am

         Humans "can't imagine", Sabine, for a number of reasons, one being the erosion of the ability to imagine anything at all, thanks to civilisations need to quell imagination for its own security. When someone with a functioning imagination appears and alerts us to their imaginings, we ring-fence, diminish and dismiss them as "crazy folk", to ease our anxiety. The recent Kim Hill interview with George Monbiot is a good example of this.
         • Sabine 2.1.1.6.1

           7 September 2022 at 10:37 am

           For what its worth we can imagine the killing/culling of animals rather then downsizing and consuming less. But i guess consuming until this planet looks like the Easter Island is a human right, or lack of imagination.
           • Robert Guyton 2.1.1.6.1.1

             7 September 2022 at 11:37 am

             It's purely lack of imagination. If everyone could "see" the outcomes of this behaviour and that behaviour, all would change. Our ability to "picture" or envision scenarios other than what we have been presented with, through movies and books; media of all sorts, Government and business decrees, religious instructions, cultural imperatives etc. blinds us to the real situation and this is exploited by those who seek the various forms of power that appeal. Our best bet, on a personal and global level, is to cultivate imagination; seek it's source, explore and share your discoveries; artists do this, and by artists, I mean everyone who does this 🙂
             • Sabine …

               7 September 2022 at 11:54 am

               🙂 according to you i am such an artist. thanks.

               maybe raise that imagination in those that really believe that cows, or other animals that the human being exploits for profit is the issue.

               we know what we have to do, in general i elieve that people know, but it is hard to stop squandering resources be they cows, water, farmland and/or humans.

               in the end, we will only have ourselfs to eat once we killed everything else.
               • Robert Guyton …

                 7 September 2022 at 12:58 pm

                 Yes, we've discovered, finally, in the Western World, that

                 "…it is hard to stop squandering resources be they cows, water, farmland and/or humans."

                 Other/earlier cultures faced the same issue and came up with solutions – rahui, potlatch etc. to rein themselves in. Our culture has yet to reach that state of maturity.

                 My hope is that we will.

                 My fear is that there isn't much time left…

                 🙂
                 • Sabine …

                   7 September 2022 at 3:08 pm

                   For humanity? Yes there is time left i believe. For our civilization however i tend to agree with you.
               • Blazer …

                 7 September 2022 at 5:51 pm

                 Shouldn't we start to…'eat the rich'…first?
                 • Sabine …

                   7 September 2022 at 8:00 pm

                   not enough fat to make for nice gravy.
     • PsyclingLeft.Always 2.1.2

       7 September 2022 at 8:35 am

       Yep. just never going to attempt a mindset change…because their minds are set in reinforced concrete. And what do "they" care about their/OUR Future? Most so focused on the end of the day… they cant even imagine what World our Children will inherit. And the others…making a LOT of Moo lah (some humour cause its a bit not)

       Anyway. Gotta keep trying ! Always rate your comments. Informative
3. roblogic 3

   7 September 2022 at 3:15 pm

   Eric Crapton Crampton has jumped the shark today, with another repulsive polemic full of distortions and outright lies in his latest Herald brainfart opinion piece.

   Clint V Smith straightened out a few of his lies.

   https://twitter.com/ClintVSmith/status/1567284641182396424?s=20&t=66R_aIpeKID9nwvAmxKOSg

   Then Luxon goes on TVNZ Breakfast and RNZ Morning Report and repeats this rubbish, with nobody pulling him up, or asking what National will actually *do*

   This shrill misinfo campaign from the Herald, Newshub, and other National Party regurgitators, reeks of desperation.
   • Incognito 3.1

     7 September 2022 at 3:28 pm

     I know it’s hard to keep them apart sometimes but perhaps you meant Bryce instead of Eric? It doesn’t matter all that much because Clint is on to them both, it appears 😉
     • roblogic 3.1.1

       8 September 2022 at 10:07 am

       Oops yeah they seem to be singing from the same hymn sheet
   • Ad 3.2

     7 September 2022 at 4:22 pm

     Clint shot both Sherriff and Deputy.

     That's a fistful of dollars there.
     • Incognito 3.2.1

       7 September 2022 at 5:02 pm

       The good vs. the bad & the ugly.
       • Shanreagh 3.2.1.1

         7 September 2022 at 7:11 pm

         Perhaps needs a '…few dollars more'

         Good old Clint was a bit younger then.

         Yahoooooo…..
4. Stephen D 4

   7 September 2022 at 7:52 pm

   We were so much younger then…
5. Eco Maori 5

   8 September 2022 at 7:31 pm

   Whano These sandflys thugs are trying to take my eldest grandchild off her mother who is working with me full time what the FUCK that is how low these thugs will go use anything in the state system to get people to kiss their ass im going to Lawyer up for this bull shit

   Ka kite Ano

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