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Open mike 03/09/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 3rd, 2022 - 152 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

152 comments on “Open mike 03/09/2022 ”

  1. PsyclingLeft.Always 1

    Graham Philip was charged with seven counts of sabotage in May, relating to an alleged attack on New Zealand infrastructure late last year. He has pleaded not guilty to all charges.

    https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/taup%C5%8D-man-court-sabotage-charges

    Anti-misinformation group FACT Aotearoa had concerns about more than 170 candidates – about 5 percent of those standing for election.

    So RNZ approached some of these candidates, some of whom we knew from previous interactions and others who we spoke to for the first time.

    Gill Booth had put her hand up for the Teviot Valley Community Board in Central Otago.

    "I fell into this about 20 years ago and when I first heard about the New World Order – we'll go there – I didn't believe it because I didn't see how it could possibly work. And then I started watching this happen, especially in America, because it happened quite quickly over there," she told the group.

    The New World Order was a conspiracy theory formed on the belief a secret cabal was attempting to form a global authoritarian government.

    [overly long copypasta deleted]

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/473984/local-body-elections-why-some-fringe-candidates-seek-office-and-what-they-want-to-achieve

    These people…are not rational. And support/supported by people who are Definitely dangerous. Counterspin….Alp, white supremacist Arps etc etc.

    Good the journalists asking them questions. Revealing for sure. !

    • weka 1.1

      I like that you are putting up topics of interest most days. Can you please make sure your copy and pastes aren't so long as today? It makes it harder for people on a phone, and we prefer copypasta to be supporting arguments and commentary rather than being the main thing. Not an absolute, but something to be aware of. Thanks.

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.1.1

        Oh allgood. Looking at it afterwards ..Todays was maybe long. Re Interest…at times I wonder WHO is interested. (and I am def not a One Interest person , So thanks : )

    • Patricia Bremner 1.2

      Interesting post thank you yes from a digitally challenged 80 year old.

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.2.1

        Thankyou and Wow Patricia. I would never have known. You have my Respect, and for your always active Leftness : ) (and I..dont give that lightly ! )

        Keep True : )

      • mary_a 1.2.2

        I find your comments very interesting to read and give thought to Patricia, for which I thank you. Digitally challenged or not, you always get your message across concisely.

        I am deaf so alternative media such as TS and other (left leaning) sites with contributors such as yourself, give me a lot of pleasure, as well as keeping my 76 year old brain exercised hee hee.

        Take good care.

  2. Stephen D 2

    Stuff is doing great work highlighting the odd ones running for councils.

    • PsyclingLeft.Always 2.1

      Wellington mayoral hopeful claimed Covid vaccine dangerous, backed Trump rioters

      McKenzie also called the pandemic an “alleged disease”

      McKenzie also said those involved in the storming of the Capitol building in Washington “took some selfies, and did little or no damage”

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/129578231/wellington-mayoral-hopeful-claimed-covid-vaccine-dangerous-backed-trump-rioters

      Anti-vax group wanting to make NZ 'ungovernable' targets local body elections

      “Having all of those pretty dangerous people onboard [as candidates] I think is a worrying development,” said Dr Mona Krewel, a political scientist who has studied Voices For Freedom and other leading figures in the so-called freedom movement.

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/stuff-circuit/300660552/antivax-group-wanting-to-make-nz-ungovernable-targets-local-body-elections

      Hi Stephen D. Odd. Thats a bit of an understatement…. But yea Stuff has been doing good coverage. Keep watching !

    • mauī 2.2

      It should be concerning to anyone that a major media org is running a concerted smear campaign against candidates putting themselves up for democratic election.

      Never thought I would see it in new zealand, but here we are.

      • KJT 2.2.1

        Yes, the "smear campaign" against Labour/Greens, including the latest outright lies, is disturbing.

        However making the real views of candidates, like VFF, who are deliberately trying to hide them, clear, is a public service to Democracy.

      • Mac1 2.2.2

        The thing about "a concerted smear campaign" is its meaning- "2. damage the reputation of (someone) by false accusations; slander."

        The opposite to that is hopefully what the media do in a democracy. Are these candidates being slandered, i.e. having false and damaging statements made about them)?

        If they are, they have remedies in law and via the Press Council.

        • mauī 2.2.2.1

          I'm not an expert on smear campaigns Mac, but this seems to fit the bill. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/local-body-elections/129677583/antimandate-doctor-running-for-wellington-city-council

          A doctor for 30+ years with her own charity, one might draw the conclusion from that, that she is therefore respected in the community and cares a lot for people and their health.

          But the media ignores anything positive, and paints the picture of someone angry, into conspiracies, with far right views.

          • Ad 2.2.2.1.1

            Stuff is simply seeking to crush alternative media competition.

            Only a small and old minority now get their news from msm sites, so they know they are losing.

            This may not be a democratic renewal for the old left, but renewal it is.

          • Barfly 2.2.2.1.2

            And Trump can say he has been a businessman for 50 years and even had a charitable foundation – but I am confident that he is absolutely

            "the picture of someone angry, into conspiracies, with far right views."

            They aren't mutually exclusive

          • Mac1 2.2.2.1.3

            I read the article. What was written seems fair journalism.

            As for the question as to whether good people can go down rabbit holes- I've seen it happen with people I know.

            Indeed, I once gave a lift in a car to a pleasant, courteous hitch-hiker who laughed at my pleasantries and called me sir. He seemed to be a good man- in a hurry, but a good man.

            I found him in the paper next day as to why he was in a hurry- to get back to the Picton anti-mandate demonstration. He is now standing for a school board in Christchurch. He attended the recent protest in Christchurch whee the reporter in the Press described his actions in trying to destroy a counter-demonstration placard, and directing racist and homophobic insults at them.

            A good man, though, seemingly………

            • PsyclingLeft.Always 2.2.2.1.3.1

              An associate of ?

              Christchurch mayoral hopeful Carl Bromley defends extremists

              https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/474068/christchurch-mayoral-hopeful-carl-bromley-defends-extremists

              • Mac1

                Not according to Bromley.

                “When asked about Philip Arps, Bromley described him as "a man who has a story" but did not consider him someone he knew well or a close friend."

                • PsyclingLeft.Always

                  Not quite sure of the meaning here? Do you maybe think your hitcher was…. Arps !? (that would be a worry to have found out ! )

                  My Link was purely to show…the connectivity between all those within. Associates. Whether Mr Bromley does not consider him as such (maybe ..) Notwithstanding, he still Friends white supremacists Kyle Chapman…and Lee Williams.

                  Whose beliefs/actions are known.

                  • Mac1

                    I know he was Arps. It wasn't a worry but I found the two faces of the man interesting. That one seeks 'freedom' within the ranks of the far -right is also an interesting view of freedom.

                    The article you cited gives enough of Bromley's conservative views and opinions, especially the last paragraph. We have a member of VFF up here standing for counsel and her views were elaborated at length by a reporter. She wrote to the paper trying to dispute the paper's version of her views but the Editor stuck by the reporter saying the original account was sound.

                    • PsyclingLeft.Always

                      Mac 1, And was Arps ! Well thats good that you were not worried. And yea the 2 Faces. Psychopaths often present as that. (On that, there was a prison officer used to comment here …and found him quiet and no trouble. All very situational of course ! )

                      And yes re the Journalists. Some fantastic Investigative Reporters. On that… I can never understand the vitriol directed at MSM in general. The Rightwing think its all Lefty and Socialist…. and of course the Leftwing think its right biased and conservative. ."Some" are…but laughable really.

                      Anyway keep looking. And being Active : )

          • Incognito 2.2.2.1.4

            … with her own charity …

            Wow! She cannot be bad or wrong, can she? It isn’t binary, B & W, but being selective often originates in and perpetuates binary attitudes and thinking and bias, of course.

            A written submission from Moala’s charitable trust, Pacific Child, Youth and Family Integrated Care Trust (PACYFIC), spreads conspiracy theories about the Pfizer vaccine. Moala is the chairperson of the trust.

            When people start using ‘their’ charities as political platform they should be de-registered as charities, as has happened with Family First NZ – it doesn’t mean that they have done ‘bad’ things and nothing ‘good’, but it means that they no longer meet the requirements and responsibilities of a charitable organisation.

            • alwyn 2.2.2.1.4.1

              "When people start using ‘their’ charities as political platform they should be de-registered as charities".

              Does that apply to the "Charity" that is the Helen Clark Foundation? I cannot see anything about it that makes it a charity rather than a political platform. Some of what they produce is interesting but it certainly isn't related to charitable purposes.

              It is, none the less, on the Charities Register.

              • Incognito

                Still wasting precious time with silly biased questions, I see. To me, you’re becoming more and more of a diversion troll every time you comment here and make that sound of an old yappy snappy dog barking at birds & butterflies buzzing around that that tiny little head of yours.

                It is, none the less, on the Charities Register.

                There’s your answer.

                Have a nice day.

                • alwyn

                  Oh dear. What a beautiful example of circular reasoning you offer.

                  I tried it on Family First NZ. It is apparently impossible to remove them as a charity by your reasoning.

                  I want to remove them from the Charities Register.

                  But you can't remove them. They are a charity. The proof is that they are on the Charities Register and are therefore a charity and cannot be removed.

                  Put them back. Their removal was wrong.

          • Shanreagh 2.2.2.1.5

            But the media ignores anything positive, and paints the picture of someone angry, into conspiracies, with far right views.

            Private charities and being a Dr can never override the possibility that we may elect an angry person who is into conspiracies and with far right views onto our local body. Why would we need to have such people around, except to keep an eye on them so we can stop them fomenting evil with wild and wacky ideas? I'd rather the SIS or similar did that rather than the people of Wellington having to do this.

            We just want our potholes dealt to and our city competently managed. We don't need a 'side' of making the place ungovernable* which is apparently in their riding instructions.

            ** I'm sorry I'll read that again…apparently the word is not ungovernable it is 'resilient' – yeah right.

      • Populuxe1 2.2.3

        It's not a smear if it's true.

  3. dv 3

    Re candidates for councils

    Would it be useful to a post the an additive list of candidates with 'odd' views as they are discovered?

    • gsays 3.1

      Great idea.

      In the analysis I would like a ranking for all candidates as to their adherence to neo-liberal, market driven politics.

      The 'race to the bottom', cheapest tender wins the contract is causing everyday damage to our communities.

    • Shanreagh 3.2

      We could have a thread where all of the investigations can be collected so we get to know all the weirdos. Even if we can't vote everywhere many of us have friends and relatives who might be interested…though mine are probably already sleuthing.

  4. I link with trepidation – since this is an opinion piece by Joyce – and therefore shines his own National Party focus on the recent Kiwi-Saver legislative u-turn.

    However, I did think that it contained useful information on the mechanics of the legislative process before a bill is introduced – especially over the duty of officials to highlight potential sore points (stakeholders who are impacted) – in the Regulatory Impact Statement.

    This was info that I didn't have about the review process which goes into legislation before it is introduced into the House – and thought it was worth sharing.

    Joyce's opinions about why this failed in this instance ('fail' being defined as the legislation being reversed 24 hours later, due to popular outcry) – are, as always, slanted by his political perceptions – consume at your own risk.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/steven-joyce-what-kiwisaver-stuff-up-says-about-the-state-of-the-government/JEJMRAWHAFVIG74P2QBR5YUQE4/?c_id=3&objectid=12549390&ref=rss

    • Bearded Git 5.1

      It's paywalled, thank goodness…I have had quite enough of “rons” Joyce.

    • Incognito 5.2

      This is the first time I hear it mentioned here, and AFAIK so far only one commenter (that would be me) has linked to one of the items covered in the RIS package. It beggars belief that nobody seems to have bothered to read the technical reasoning for the Bill as introduced in Parliament and it shows that the storm of protest had nothing to do with reason or evidence, for that matter.

      https://taxpolicy.ird.govt.nz/publications/2022/2022-ris-perm-bill

      • Belladonna 5.2.1

        Point 69, in the RIS under the Managed Funds section is the one which should have had political antennae twitching. Not as a reason not to do it (if it was determined to be the best outcome), but that political management and control of the message would be needed.

        69. The preferred option will likely increase the fees charged to managed fund investors, resulting in reduced returns for savers and consequently
        reduce the future balances in KiwiSaver and other managed funds

    • Sorry, didn't realize it was paywalled…

      Relevent quote

      In the normal course of events, every paper that goes up must be lodged by the middle of the previous week. That gives Treasury, the Prime Minister's Office, and every other affected government department time to offer their views on it and prime their minister with their concerns.

      Each significant paper must be accompanied by a Regulatory Impact Statement, which lays out in detail the impact of a decision on the relevant stakeholders. This was an innovation of the Key government, and its power is that it is written by officials rather than ministers, so it is where you look if you want to find a fish hook glossed over in the main Cabinet paper.

      Both Treasury and the Prime Minister's Office prepare short cheat sheets for their ministers highlighting the key elements of every Cabinet paper. An hour before Cabinet on Monday morning, senior Treasury officials sit down with the Finance Minister and his associates (including in this case David Parker) and discussed the key papers of interest at that day's Cabinet. At a similar time two floors higher, the Prime Minister's Office is taking their boss through a similar preview of the papers.

      As an added protection Cabinet also has senior ministers who act as sweepers. They are normally alert for things that might carry ramifications others haven't thought of that either worry their constituency or affect the Government's broader standing. They serve an important alarm-raising function for the wider Cabinet.

      Once the Cabinet decision is made, there are more protections around how the decision is announced. Ministers don't just dash off press releases themselves for significant economic matters. Any draft announcement involving government finances is shared with the Finance Minister's Office, and anything political with the ninth floor.

      • Incognito 5.3.1

        I think it’s safe to say that this wasn’t your typical run-of-the-mill paper, it was a highly technical (aren’t all things related to Tax highly technical?) omnibus bill.

        Policy proposals in this omnibus bill fall into three categories; the first category is to set the annual rates of income tax for the 2022-23 tax year; the second category aims at improving current settings within a broad-base, low-rate framework to help ensure that taxes are fair and efficient and impede economic growth as little as possible; and the third category relates to proposals aimed at improving the settings for tax administration, the GST regime, KiwiSaver, and social policy rules administered by Inland Revenue.

        https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/bills-and-laws/bills-proposed-laws/document/BILL_125954/taxation-annual-rates-for-2022-23-platform-economy-and

        It never even made it to its First Reading!

        • Belladonna 5.3.1.1

          Yes, I freely admit that the technicalities and financial implications of the various options are well over my head (luckily no one is about to appoint me Revenue Minister [joke])

          However, the impact on KS investors (and therefore political implications) was clearly signalled

          "resulting in reduced returns for savers and consequently reduce the future balances in KiwiSaver"

          That's the bit which needed political management and a clearly articulated message.

          • Incognito 5.3.1.1.1

            At worst, it was a political misjudgement. Government seems easily rattled and spooked and they are not prepared to die in a ditch when someone screams ‘guppy attack!’. Sadly, though, the preferred option (by IRD) will never receive the due consideration and democratic debate it rightly deserved; it was judged, sentenced, and executed in and by the kangaroo court of public outcry where facts and reason are stopped at the door. It is so typical of National’s MO of political opposition, which is no different from their MO when in government.

      • Ad 5.3.2

        Key would have fired Parker by now.

        Labour could certainly do with the risk aerials of Joyce right now.

        He's the guy who made MBIE, broadband fibre rollout, and Crown Infrastructure Partners. All three the biggest and longest lasting reforms of their day.

        • Jester 5.3.2.1

          "Key would have fired Parker by now." – Yes but Ardern does not have the luxury of a deep talent pool. In fact, isn't Parker one of their most experienced ministers, and one of the few Labour ministers with actual real world experience outside of politics.

          • Ad 5.3.2.1.1

            Agree.

          • observer 5.3.2.1.2

            Nonsense. MPs like Barbara Edmonds and Deborah Russell are tax experts, more than qualified to be Revenue Minister.

            The "talent pool" jibe is a favourite attack line from the Right, and doesn't stand up to any serious analysis. National's "talent pool" delivered Bridges, Muller, Collins and Luxon – they all had CVs, only the talent was lacking.

            • Belladonna 5.3.2.1.2.1

              Deborah Russell may have the financial and tax expertise, but comes across as just as much of an ivory tower intellectual as Parker.

              I admit that I hadn't heard of Barbara Edmonds until now (local Wellington MP & I'm up in Auckland). Her CV looks impressive, and I'd certainly like to see more of her in Government. Given that she's in the fairly safe Labour seat of Mana – Labour should be actively fostering her parliamentary career.

              She's currently Junior Whip (which is fairly impressive for someone who was only elected in 2020) – but appears not to be on any select committees (or, at least, I couldn't see any).
              She'd be a perfect junior partner for Parker in his Revenue Ministry – both with the technical knowledge and as someone who looks as though she has both feet firmly on the ground, politically speaking.

              • Drowsy M. Kram

                Deborah Russell may have the financial and tax expertise, but comes across as just as much of an ivory tower intellectual as Parker.

                Maybe it’s only me, but "ivory tower intellectual" jibes come across as just lazy. Anti-intellectualism is alive and well in Aotearoa – where’s it taking us?

                David Parker was born in Roxburgh and grew up in Dunedin. As a teenager, Parker attended Otago Boys' High School. He attended the University of Otago, studying law and business, and co-founded the Dunedin Community Law Centre.

                Before entering politics, Parker worked as a litigation partner in the law firm Anderson Lloyd Caudwell. He later had a business career in the agri-biotechnology field, including with Blis Technologies, where he was a manager.

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Parker_(New_Zealand_politician)#Before_politics

                • The point I'm trying to make is that she doesn't come across as well-connected to the concerns of ordinary Kiwis.
                  Nor does Parker.

                  Geeks may be valuable (and essential) to any business-delivery process, but you don't put them out front to sell the product (Steve Jobs aside).

                  You can rail at anti-intellectualism (and I may well agree with you) – but your and my opinions aren't relevant, when it comes to selling policy to the vast majority of NZers.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    Russell was elected MP for New Lynn in 2017 (2,825 majority), and re-elected in 2020 with a "vast majority" of 13,134. If (as you posit @3:21 pm) "she doesn't come across as well-connected to the concerns of ordinary Kiwis", then presumably either "ordinary Kiwis" don't have much electoral clout in the New Lynn electorate, or they're not bothered that Russell (in your words) "doesn't come across… [etc.]"

                    "Sell the product" and "Selling policy" is intriguing (business?) framing – one would have thought that "tax cuts" would be an easy sell, but maybe not all tax cuts. She's a hard road finding the perfect tax cut policy. Still, no hurry eh?

                    You can rail at anti-intellectualism…

                    Anti-intellectuals – never around when you need them wink

                    • Shanreagh

                      Anti-intellectuals – never around when you need them wink

                      Someone around here and there must have pulled themselves up by their bootstraps.

                      It is not a matter of the comms response per se but of controlling the narrative. An omnibus tax bill makes it difficult but then usually it was understood or a convention that you did not include potentially 'controversial' matters in the tax washing up bill or other omnibus or washing up bills.

                      So someone right down at IRD level has not actually really turned their mind to the implications of a malevolent view being taken. This has gone right through all the levels including the legislation cabinet committee right up to and through the House sub committees (Whips & the like) where egg spplatering stuff is usually able to be weeded out.

                      It has the feel of tiredness and over reliance on checks & balances.

                    • Incognito []

                      I disagree. IRD went through the appropriate consultation process:

                      26. The scope of the options is limited to measures the managed funds industry could implement and administer. Options two, three and four were consulted on in a public consultation paper which also asked for submissions on alternative options which led to option one (legislating to allow the current GST practices to continue) being submitted as the preferred option for one group of stakeholders.

                      73. The impacts of the non-monetised costs and benefits have been determined through public consultation and discussions with interested managed funds and tax advisors who work with the managed funds industry.

                      https://taxpolicy.ird.govt.nz/-/media/project/ir/tp/publications/2022/2022-ria-perm-bill/2022-ria-3-gst-managed-funds.pdf?modified=20220828034214 [finalised 25 May 2022]

                      As stated by Government, support suddenly evaporated, presumably because they got rattled after National decided to wage a campaign of fear. The big players – after all, we are still a FIRE economy – were never really in favour, obviously. Fairness considerations went out of the window.

                    • If you're going to argue that you need to have popular appeal to get elected into a safe Labour seat – then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

                      New Lynn has been staunch Labour since before the days of Jonathan Hunt (i.e before I was born).

                      Surely you can see the difference in popular appeal between Russell and Kiri Allen, for example.

                      That's not to say that they don't both add value to the Government – but that they have very different talents.

                      You can sneer at 'selling' all you please. But all Governments know they have to sell policies to the electorate. And, have to do a better sales job than the opposition, come election time.

                      One of the greatest of challenges to democracy, is that the skill-set required to get elected, has little to do with the skill-set required to govern.

                    • Shanreagh

                      @Incognito.

                      Yes you are quite correct. It did go out for consultation.

                      Perhaps the step about 'what would be the most malevolent or hostile connotation we can think of and let's build the answer to that in our publications' was missed.

                      In one workplace (Health sector) we always had fun grilling our CEO before public policy announcements and before public meetings finding these off the wall and wrong interpretations and questioning him on them. That admittedly is the big picture but you soon get into the habit of looking for them in everything…..

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    If you're going to argue that you need to have popular appeal to get elected into a safe Labour seat – then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

                    Belladonna (@5:35 pm) – indeed we will just have to agree to disagree, as not too many Labour MPs increased their electoral majority by more than 10,000 votes in the 2020 general election. Think Chris Hipkins (an engaging, high-profile MP – hope you will agree) was the only one.

                    Imho, the "vast increase" in electorate votes for Russell suggests that your image of her (or at least your assumptions regarding the image of her that is prevalent amongst voters) as an "ivory tower intellectual" who isn't "well-connected to the concerns of ordinary Kiwis" isn't realistic.

                    Tbh, I'm not seeing any basis in fact for the above comments/memes about Russell's defects as a politician – seems to be a paucity of commentary to that that effect, which really make me wonder.

                    • Really, you can't judge by majorities in safe seats – the opposition frequently puts up less-than-stellar candidates – since there's no chance of winning. And particularly not in 2020, due to the Jacinda bounce.

                      A better indicator is the difference between their electorate vote and the party vote – which is around 1K for Russell (virtually identical margin in 2017 & 2020). It was notably better for David Cunliffe – the previous MP – throughout the entire time he held the seat. Which says to me that she's not particularly personally popular in the seat.

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Lynn_(New_Zealand_electorate)#2020_election

                      It's difficult to find other Labour politicians in safe seats, who don't also have a high national (and therefore local) profile – it's not realistic to compare her to Ardern, Robertson, or Woods.

                      Having heard Russell in person, and in the debating chamber, she doesn't come across to me as a warm, relatable character.

                      Now, YMMV – and you are entitled to your own opinion (as am I).

                      Having looked her up on the parliamentary website, it turns out that she is the Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Revenue – who knew? – so is (apparently) part of Parker's team. And, clearly didn't see the political implications of the bill, any more than he did. Which doesn't argue for someone well in touch with political realities (as opposed to financial theory)

                      So, what about Barbara Edmonds, then?

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    Having heard Russell in person, and in the debating chamber, she doesn't come across to me as a warm, relatable character.

                    Thanks for your evaluation Belladonna, believe it or not I do now understand that to you, Russell:

                    "comes across as just as much of an ivory tower intellectual as Parker",

                    "doesn't come across as well-connected to the concerns of ordinary Kiwis",

                    and is comparatively lacking in

                    "popular appeal".

                    Comes across to me as a well-intentioned hit job, tbh, apart from "geek."

                    So, what about Barbara Edmonds, then?

                    Can you elaborate – does Edmonds also come across to you as someone lacking a warm, relatable character?

                    • No. You named Edmonds as a potential revenue minister. I said I knew nothing about her (she's Wellington, I'm Auckland), but her CV looked impressive.
                      I'm assuming that you have more knowledge than I do.

                    • And, what evidence can you provide – apart from 'popularity' in a safe Labour seat – and I've demonstrated that the stats show she's not particularly popular, even there – that Russell is a popularly relatable figure. I used Kiri Allen as a benchmark.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    And, what evidence can you provide – apart from 'popularity' in a safe Labour seat – and I've demonstrated that the stats show she's not particularly popular, even there – that Russell is a popularly relatable figure.

                    I can imagine why Russell's popularity relative to Kiri Allan might be your benchmark – thank goodness they're on the same team.

                    Despite Russell's multiple perceived political handicaps (an "ivory tower intellectual" who lacks "popular appeal" and doesn't come across as a warm, relatable character "well-connected to the concerns of ordinary Kiwis"), in 2020 she was re-elected as MP for New Lynn with a 13,134 majority, the largest in the history of the seat – well done that woman.

                    No. You named Edmonds as a potential revenue minister.

                    Belladonna, like you (@5.3.2.1.2.1), I had next to no idea about Edmonds (a new MP) – perhaps you are confused.

                    • Nope. Not confused. You named her as a potential revenue minister – in your original comment.

                      "Nonsense. MPs like Barbara Edmonds and Deborah Russell are tax experts, more than qualified to be Revenue Minister."

                      I assumed that you had more knowledge of her than a cursory glance at her CV. As we all know from the Sharma drama – a CV doesn't necessarily reflect political ability.

                    • "in 2020 she was re-elected as MP for New Lynn with a 13,134 majority, the largest in the history of the seat – well done that woman."

                      Hope you're prepared to eat your words when she plunges – as she inevitably will – in 2023.

                      I note you haven't engaged with the points I made about safe Labour seats, and the difference between personal and party vote, being significantly reduced in comparison to the previous New Lynn MP.

                      Continuing to re-state that a healthy majority in a safe seat makes an MP ‘popular’ fails to convince.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    Continuing to re-state that a healthy majority in a safe seat makes an MP ‘popular’ fails to convince.

                    Not suggesting that Russell was/is a popular MP; my ‘engagement’ consists of suggesting that Russell is not an unpopular MP, all the more remarkable given that some choose to characterise her as an “ivory tower intellectual” who lacks “popular appeal” and doesn’t come across as a warm, relatable character “well-connected to the concerns of ordinary Kiwis“,

                    Nope. Not confused. You named her as a potential revenue minister – in your original comment.

                    You may have to eat your words Belladonna – unless of course you can provide a relevant quote to substantiate your assertion.

                    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.
                    – Russell

                    • I just gave you the quote.

                      Here it is again

                      "Nonsense. MPs like Barbara Edmonds and Deborah Russell are tax experts, more than qualified to be Revenue Minister."

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    I just gave you the quote.

                    Here it is again

                    "Nonsense. MPs like Barbara Edmonds and Deborah Russell are tax experts, more than qualified to be Revenue Minister."

                    Thank you; I did read the quote you gave me. Can you please do me the courtesy of reading who wrote it?

                    • Apologies – you had engaged so consistently on this issue – I'd conflated you with the original poster.

                      We'll leave it at the fact that neither of us knows anything about Barbara Edmonds, apart from her CV.

            • Ad 5.3.2.1.2.2

              Those Labour tax experts have only been delegated IRD makework projects and taking near nothing off Parker's load. Parker's failure to properly delegate is as dog-in-a-manger.

        • Barfly 5.3.2.2

          Is Joyce still looking for his $11,000,000,000 hole?

          • Ad 5.3.2.2.1

            NZ net Crown debt is $127 billion and rising in billions weekly, heading from 15-20% of GDP to 50% of GDP.

            Ardern is digging a hole for us 10 times larger than anything Joyce forecast.

            • Incognito 5.3.2.2.1.1

              With a few more global pandemics and a few more foreign invasions of sovereign nations you could be right, but otherwise not so much.

              https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/crown-accounts-reflect-government%E2%80%99s-balanced-fiscal-management

              • Ad

                Every small state government faces headwinds.

                Only a few hold course.

                • Incognito

                  I agree that this Government appears to have lost its course, but not (yet) its (social democratic) compass and/or captain. We need all hands on deck, working together, not shouting at each other and blaming the captain for steering into a shit storm.

                  • Ad

                    As I point out below, evaluating your successes and failures is the basic of leadership. You often confuse criticism with disloyalty and it makes for really bad writing.

                    The question Labour as the government is: what do you focus on now to improve? They have far fewer options than one might think.

                    • Incognito

                      Thanks, Ad. I really appreciate your honest and constructive criticism of my bad writing, which is one reason why I’ve stopped writing Posts here (the other main ones being time & energy).

                      However, you’re way off the mark with your comment about conflating criticism and disloyalty. Personally, the two are inextricably linked in that I cannot be loyal if I cannot criticise – anybody who is versed in being his/her own worst critic would know what I mean here.

                      Have a nice day.

              • Stuart Munro

                The weather may deliver us a curve ball of comparable proportions.

                This is evidently the warmest & wettest NZ winter on record.

                When we reach summer, if it is in any way comparable to Europe's it is going to kill a good few businesses.

            • observer 5.3.2.2.1.2

              You aversion to truth would make Joyce proud.

              Of course debt has increased, and of course you know why, and of course you know how it is forecast to track in future. But you have to play this game, where you constantly mistake being contrarian for being clever, It really isn't.

              If you support major cuts in spending, say so. Then join ACT.

            • Poission 5.3.2.2.1.3

              Certainly removed the operating balance fast from 16.1 billion yr end 21 to a forecast 27.76 b deficit in 22, those rainbows and butterflies are very unsustainable.There is a good reason why the south pacific peso has depreciated 6% in the last month,one being finger pointing by investors.

              • Ad

                Headline unemployment and interest rates are still good here, sheltered by Australia. With the June figure so flat, the 15 September GDP announcement better be good.

                • Poission

                  Our 10 year yield on the secondary market is over 4% (worse then italy ) which shows currency risk,and increasing yields are a measure of fewer buyers.

                  Unemployment is low everywhere,its a good measure of the constraint on travel,and emigration from constrained economies.Australia has a property and construction crash (fewer permits in July) along with double figure electricity and gas increases (which have not showed up in the data) Iron ore prices have collapsed (as have most intensive conversion production centres both across Europe and China shut down.

                  There are a few chickens starting to arise now,with transports say treasury in the budget update flagged the increase in RUC and fuel levy in next budget to repay the 2.4b loan due in April 24,since then there is an obvious problem.

                  24-25 there are significant refinancing (debt roll over ) at higher rates,blowouts on capital imports due to $ going south etc.

          • Robert Guyton 5.3.2.2.2

            It's at the non-brain end of brain-stem.

          • Jester 5.3.2.2.3

            The only thing Joyce got wrong in the end was that he underestimated.

        • PsyclingLeft.Always 5.3.2.3

          wtf ? ! Who else couda/woulda Key have "fired" from.. national? And didnt…

          https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/john-key-says-national-did-not-ask-mike-sabin-to-quit-after-mp-resigns-due-to-personal-issues/EXFM3AF2VXCF5V57CEYVPQP7BQ/

          And now…apart from continually bagging Jacinda Ardern ..youre praising up Steven …Joyce ?

          Yesterday Steven Joyce claimed there was a giant hole in Labour’s books. We asked a lot of economists and accountants whether the claim was correct.

          https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/05-09-2017/the-11-7-billion-dollar-question-steven-joyce-and-grant-robertson-cant-both-be-right

          National has brought us here before. A vote for Labour is a vote for Kim Dotcom. Iwi/Kiwi. Dancing Cossacks. It was disgraceful then. It’s disgraceful now.

          https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/06-09-2017/the-critical-questions-raised-by-steven-joyces-missing-billions-fiasco

          I really dont know what angle you are running here …..

          • Incognito 5.3.2.3.1

            When you spin, the angle changes all the time, from left to right, from up to down, and round and round it goes.

            • Barfly 5.3.2.3.1.1

              Yes and as the RW is constantly vomiting garbage and filth while they spin you end up with a hell of a mess all over the place.

          • Ad 5.3.2.3.2

            Joyce just set out clear Cabinet paper decisionmaking processes, so I pointed out that Joyce has the credibility to state that. No angle.

            The harder question to answer now is:

            In what policy field can Labour make a plan convincing enough to turn its current car-crash around?

            The policy fields Labour have politically ruined are:

            health, tertiary education, tax, debt management, violent crime, local government, water, electricity, housing, banking, poverty alleviation, transport, broadcasting, public information access, firefighting, and democratic strength.

            They remain strong in: foreign policy, disaster management, social security, and employment.

            Much of that balance is in poor political management, some in legislative design, the rest is simple inexperience and failure to execute. All well-forecast problems in 2017.

            But they still have a year to run.

            What should they do now?

            • Stuart Munro 5.3.2.3.2.1

              Sort out the bollocks around tiny houses.

              The climate crisis is going to hit us much sooner and much harder than we are prepared for. A more ascetic lifestyle, which also reduces pressure on conventional housing will offend only property speculators and slumlords (who would not vote Labour on a bet).

              Labour should have been building for the lower income quartile all along.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 5.3.2.4

          Key would have fired Parker by now.

          Interesting opinion. Key (8+ years as PM) removed Worth, whereas Ardern (<5 years as PM) has dismissed Curran and Lees-Galloway. Others fell (or were pushed) on their swords, albeit temporarily.

          Worth's conduct "[did] not befit a minister and I [Key] will not have him in my Cabinet'' [June 2009]

          Smith resigned from all his Cabinet portfolios on 21 March 2012…

          On 1 May 2014, he [Williamson] resigned his ministerial portfolios after making what the Prime Minister, John Key, called, "A serious error of judgement."

          Key said Collins had been 'unwise' and placed on her second final warning.

          On 30 August 2014 Collins resigned her Cabinet positions following the leak of another e-mail written by Slater in 2011.

          On 24 August 2018, Prime Minister Ardern dismissed Curran from the Cabinet…

          On 30 August 2018, Whaitiri had to "stand aside" from her ministerial portfolios…

          Ardern accepted his resignation, stating that she "accepted Clark's conclusion that his presence in the role was creating an unhelpful distraction from the Government's ongoing response to Covid-19 and wider health reforms." [July 2020]

          On 22 July 2020 Lees-Galloway was dismissed from his immigration, workplace relations and ACC ministerial portfolios by Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern after admitting an inappropriate but consensual relationship with a person working in one of his agencies.

        • Bearded Git 5.3.2.5

          Let's remember the gst changes proposed were actually a good idea, where foreign owned banks had to pay 225 million dollars a year to the government and which should have come out of their profits and not charged to their customers. So Parker thought people would favourable to the change. The media, including RNZ's Checkpoint (WTF) portrayed the reforms as a wealth tax or a tax on Kiwisaver which was wrong, shallow and pathetic. The standard of journalism on RNZ's Checkpoint is atrocious. FACTS AND BALANCE are often missing.

          • Ad 5.3.2.5.1

            Couldawouldashoulda doesn't work.

            The question for Ardern is what specifically does she do to turn this around, enough to have a shot at 2023?

        • Blazer 5.3.2.6

          Interesting reforms there Ad.

          Going line by line' through MBIE's expenditures is quite ..telling.

          How much was pumped into Chorus by the Govt to keep it afloat?

          Crown Infrastructure Partners…does that work where Crown carries the risk?Usually it does.

  5. arkie 6

    Good news!

    Tipler argues the voting age should be lowered from 18: that would have an impact on government and council decisions that most affect young people, such as the availability of good public transport, or addressing climate emissions.

    Now, a Government review has reached the same conclusion.

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/pro/lower-voting-age-and-longer-terms-for-local-councils-govt-review

    Make it 16 petition here

    • Poission 6.1

      Thats great now they can face their full responsibilities as adults in court.

      • arkie 6.1.1

        What are you talking about? Current law allows children as young as 10 being charged in court:

        No child should ever appear in an adult court and should never be sentenced to life imprisonment, youth justice experts say.

        In a paper released last week they are calling for four urgent law changes to remove children aged between 10 and 17 from being dealt with in the adult court completely.

        They also want to raise the minimum age of criminal responsibility and remove the ability for children to be remanded into police cells.

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/126848630/law-change-wanted-to-prevent-children-ending-up-in-adult-courts

        • Poission 6.1.1.1

          Thats indictable offences,presently the ram raiders ,car lifters etc appear in youth court.

          • arkie 6.1.1.1.1

            And according to youth justice experts that just where they should be appearing.

            What more would you like to see 'achieved' by the use of the adult court system regarding this criminal menace?

            • Poission 6.1.1.1.1.1

              So they are not mature intellectually or morally to appear as an adult in court,but they can vote fucken hilarious.

              • arkie

                How do we currently test voters intellectual and moral maturity other than to have lived past their 18th birthday? I know plenty older that fail to exhibit this maturity, and they’re in the Parliament! Under such thinking surely those who are of age but do not vote should have it revoked henceforth, for not exhibiting the requisite maturity?

                Universal suffrage means just that, and encouraging youth involvement and engagement with politics by lowering the age to 16 is social good. They will only have one election to vote in while they are below 18 anyway, after that they’re intellectually and morally mature right?

                • weka

                  if the issue is maturity, why 16 and not 15? Or 14? or 12?

                  • arkie

                    Very good point, the line is arbitrary. I think the reasoning behind 16 is because the education of registering and engaging with the process could be part of the year 11 curriculum, the last year of schooling that is mandatory.

                    • weka

                      do they teach those things already?

                    • arkie

                      I'm not certain. From a cursory look online the beginning of educating around of the NZ political process begins around year 10 / level 6.

                    • weka

                      I can't see the problem with teaching it in the last year of school and then them voting at 18. Unless they're intending to register students while still at school.

                    • arkie

                      Not every student continues High School after Year 11, they'll miss out on learning an important civic process. Apparently the social studies class is elective past year 10 and how teachers approach the curriculum is left up to individual educators more than other subjects. If schools are to teach the next generations what is needed for our society then surely civics should be a mandatory topic.

                    • weka

                      I quite agree. One of my main objections to lowering the age at this time is the lack of civics education.

                      Let's say it's made compulsory in the last two mandatory years of school. Then they still can't vote until 18. How is that a problem?

                    • arkie

                      It's not necessarily a problem, other than that it may be against the Bill of Rights. In the Newsroom article Dr Bronwyn Wood, Senior Lecturer at the School of Education at VIC says:

                      "One of the strongest arguments I have for why youth should vote is that they inherit the policies and their consequences formed by adults for a much longer time than the adults themselves. So Brexit was strongly opposed by the younger generation but the older generation got what they wanted – which seems quite unfair.

                      On the other hand, though, she says youth are poorly set up to understand the nuances of political party positions at 16. "Arguably many adults still don't understand these either – but in the meantime many youth don't want, or feel confident, to vote at 16. Any campaign to lower voting age therefore needs to have a package of educational support."

                      A mandatory education program accompanying any change seems to be common across those making the recommendation.

                    • weka

                      The inheriting policies argument takes us back to why 16 and not 14. Or 5 (I asked about the rationale on twitter once and someone I respect said they think all children should have the right to vote 😳)

                    • arkie

                      Yeah that's not a sensible argument and not one I'd support.

                      I guess an idea why 16 could be that it is the next age threshold below 18, that society already uses for a variety of rights, it's not 14 because that seems a lot younger to society. All these thresholds aren't static, as we've seen with alcohol purchasing laws, it takes society to think it makes sense, and I think the argument that 16 is too immature to vote is not particularly strong. But we shall see what happens.

                      Regarding what is possible at different age thresholds, this is informative: https://www.cab.org.nz/article/KB00001126

                  • Poission

                    Why not 25 that is when the Brain is fully developed.

                    • weka

                      is that a serious suggestion?

                    • Poission

                      It has better rational arguments then bottom trawling for voters here and abroad (the latter being those with nz residents living abroad) if you cannot attract more the 1 in 12 voters with your policies,maybe the wisdom of the masses holds.

                    • weka

                      fuck sake, it's like pulling teeth trying to get people to state their position clearly.

    • Blazer 6.2

      Asking if 16 y.o's can exercise good judgement….whatabout the 'Ufindell effect'?cheeky

  6. Ad 7

    So here's the energy crash course for Europe: Russia has now permanently shut down NordStream.

    Nord Stream 1: Gazprom announces indefinite shutdown of pipeline | Gazprom | The Guardian

    How will 'leader' v 'fast follower' v 'petrostate to the South play out now?

    And will it be enough of an effect to stabilise its climate shock?

    • arkie 7.1

      Search for alternatives perhaps?

      Yemen’s former Foreign Minister, Abu Bakr al-Qirbi, who said that French Foreign Legion, a French military force comprising of foreign nationals, has arrived in Yemen’s Shabwah province to secure control of the Balhaf gas facility.

      In July, Paris and Abu Dhabi signed an energy cooperation deal for the joint production of liquefied natural gas (LNG).

      According to reports from earlier in the year, the energy cooperation between the two countries is aimed at securing control over Yemeni gas resources through the Balhaf facility, which is owned by French multinational oil and gas company TotalEnergies SE.

      https://thecradle.co/Article/news/14486

    • Poission 7.2

      The G7 also placed a cap on Russian oil (the nordstream event was likely a reaction as the maintenance was timed for the meeting) as Europe controls 90% of the insurance,a no sail requirement is now in place.

      It excludes Oil to Japan from its Sakhalin field.

    • Blazer 7.3

      Nordstream2 is available ,a more modern ..option!

  7. Muttonbird 8

    It is almost too depressing to report but Heather Stupidity-Allen yesterday came out with two unhinged clangers:

    1. ‘All mask wearers are merely signalling their support for Jacinda Ardern.’ I don't know about you but I wear a mask so I reduce the chances of catching a virus. I'm a freelance contractor and mask wearing in contact situations helps keep me and my family safe and food on the table. Perhaps the hundreds of millions of asian people who practice mask-wearing are also left wing conspirators?
    2. ‘Rather a VFF/Anti-vaxxer for council than a Green.’ This is something she said which 1ZB has actually used as a promo for her show. Her argument, and clearly NZME’s argument is the Green candidate is actively and ideologically for destroying the economy and would do more damage than an anti-science, white-supremacist.

    I get that Stupidity-Allen has to say dumb shit to appeal to her audience of racists and crystal-clutchers in order to keep her job, but it must hurt bad when she reflects at the end of each day on the monumental garbage just spouted.

  8. Poission 9

    France announces that the 32 nuclear reactors idled for maintenance and parts,will be operating by winter,decreasing some generation risk in Eurozone.

    Boris Johnston outlines one of the UK policy response to the energy shortage.

    Which is not as silly as it sounds,large savings to be made by replacement of more efficient appliances b4 winter.

    • Muttonbird 9.1

      Which is not as silly as it sounds, large savings to be made by replacement of more efficient appliances b4 winter.

      It is extremely silly.

      How is it not silly to spend £20 on a kettle to save £10 in the first winter, a winter of 250% increases in energy prices? You are immediately £20 worse off and still £10 worse off a year after purchase.

      More than that, it is out of touch in the face of household energy bills rising by hundreds of pounds in the coming winter. He is rightly being ridiculed for it.

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