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Open mike 07/03/2014

Written By: - Date published: 7:35 am, March 7th, 2014 - 169 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmike Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

169 comments on “Open mike 07/03/2014”

  1. logie97 1

    Royal Visit.
    Apparently their schedule is set in concrete – cannot be changed.
    We can look forward then to the spectacle of the boat race on the Waitemata when those Americas Cup boats venture out onto the Hauraki in 35 to 45 knot winds.

    So, just saying the weather is foul that day, what will their royal highnesses be doing instead?

    • freedom 1.1

      apparently the visit is only going to cost one million dollars ….. rofl

    • bad12 1.2

      Oh be sure that the descendants of a long past King and an Irish Piss-pot emptier will be well versed in how to waste time,after all its a life-time occupation that they have been well schooled to expect,

      Such inconveniences are simply by-passed with the plastering on of the fake smiles for the Galloping Colonial Clods and the ability to plant kisses on the dial of randomly selected babies while clenching firmly closed the nasal passage is given a solid workout,

      The head Galloping Colonial Clod in the form of Slippery the Prime Minister, expected to put on for the ‘descendants’ an exceptional gushing display of abject fawning at the feet of such unearned wealth will provide a much needed amusement and distraction,

      A later family viewing of the video will have the young princeling pondering aloud as to why ‘they’ would want to bestow a knighthood upon such a servile creature to the tutt tutts of His mother a far closer descendant of the Irish piss-pot emptier…

      • logie97 1.2.1

        I cannot imagine what the MP and its supporters must think, having propped up the current administration for five years, and then have his lordship and RWNJs trying to defend the 90 minutes maximum that was suggested for the visit to Turangawaewae. (more pure tokenism.)

  2. ‘cos of upcoming big changes @ whoar..

    ..i have been ‘crunching’ the numbers..

    ..and that is/has been pretty exciting..

    ..given that zeald audit told me i have over 21,000 subscribers on r.s.s..

    ..(and assuming those subscribers ‘want’ my 50 odd notifications each day..(if not this would be like a massive spam-attack every day..eh..?..and you would unsubscribe..you’d think..?..)

    ..i ran thru some scenarios:

    so..lets roll that 21,000+ down to 20.000..

    ..and then multiply that by the 50 stories/links sent each day..

    ..now..if every link was clicked/opened..that would be 1,000,000 page-views a day..(whoar..!..eh..?..)

    ..were half opened..(25)..that would equal some 500,000 page-views a day..

    ..were one quarter opened..that would equal a quarter of a million page-views per day..

    ..were only five stories/links open..that equals 100,000 page-views per day..

    ..and were only 2-3 out of those 50 stories opened..

    ..that is still 50,000 page-views a day..

    ..pretty fucken awesome…eh..?

    phillip ure..

    • bad12 2.1

      As i intimated the other day Phillip, i really think you should rename your web-site, ‘Attention Whoar’ looks really really promising…

      • weka 2.1.1

        So are we in for another episode of The Odd Couple today?

        • phillip ure

          nah..!..repitition is boring..

          ..it’s all been said..

          ..the lines have been clearly drawn..

          ..(and anyway..i am currently mildly-euphoric..c.f..number-crunching..)

          ..phillip ure

    • and funny story..!

      ..i approached the icehouse a couple of years ago..

      ..humbly offering up my whoar-baby for scrutiny/possible help with development/nurture,..

      ..they pretty much laughed me out of the room..


      ..phillip ure..


      • JustLikeTigerWoods 2.2.1

        The fact that surprises you speaks volumes.

        A blog is not an investment proposition for a tech venture capitalist unless it has significant – realistic – growth prospects. A poorly read blog is a hobby – and they are a dime a dozen.

        RSS subscriptions are not a measure of readership. Page view numbers from unique visitors is the appropriate measure. It’s easy to track them. The data you have provided is speculation.





        50,000 page-views a day? Ho ho.

        • phillip ure

          is that you..?..wo..?

          ..the reason rss drilldown is difficult is because there is no software to do/measure that..

          ..(this is what zeald told me..)

          ..so given the fact of 21,000 subscribers..taking 50 stories a day..(that they want..c.f…spam-attack otherwise..)

          ..possibly equaling up to 1,000,000 (delivered) page-views per day..

          ..this is hardly ‘a poorly read blog’..

          ..and given this has been done with no facebook-profile..no twitter-profile..

          ..and not a searchengine-optimisation-tool within cooee..

          ..in the words of john key/your illustrious-leader…

          ..i am pretty ‘relaxed’..eh..?

          ..(and ‘alexa’..?..snigger/snort..!..

          ..i have them over in the irrelevant-corner..along with that local parachute-monthly-blog-rating/ranking..

          ..that came out the other day..

          ..and despite ranking down to the smallest minnows..

          ..whoar is nowhere to be seen..

          ..ya gotta laff..!


          ..phillip ure..

          • JustLikeTigerWoods

            ” rss drilldown is difficult”

            It’s difficult for an external monitoring company, not you. You could use tracking software, such as simplefeed.

            Your figures are speculation.

            “whoar is nowhere to be seen”

            There’s a good reason for that…..

            • phillip ure

              did i also mention i like working with words..?

              ..and that i am a tech-fool/luddite..?

              ..(cf..no s.e.o..)

              ..so..are you just waving away those irrefutable-facts..

              1)..21,000 rss subscribers..

              2)..those subscribers clearly want what i offer..(otherwise 50 notifications a day would be a royal pain in the arse = unsubcribe..)

              3)..50 stories/links sent each day..with the possible number opened up to one million page-views a day..?

              ..you are just waving away these facts..?

              ..right ho..!

              ..phillip ure..

              • freedom

                sorry if I am out of line here,
                but isn’t this whole thing a topic better discussed on your own blog ?

                • it is actually kinda relevant..

                  ..if only given how everyone moans there is no daily-broad-church-media in nz presenting the progressive p.o.v..

                  ..and then ..(with clearly some exceptions..)..

                  ..studiously ignores the one that does..

                  ..funny that..!..eh..?

                  ..and as usual..i am just answering attacks..



                  phillip ure..

              • JustLikeTigerWoods

                It’s easy to get the numbers, Phil. Install the tracking software.

                Or create a post saying you don’t know how many RSS readers are reading your posts, tell them you’re going to change the feed address, and that they should change to that new address if they want to keep reading in future.

                If you hesitate, then that tells us you’re not confident they are reading your posts, and that they would not spend a few seconds resubscribing.

                If you can’t be bothered spending a few minutes working out how to do these things – in order to provide proof (something venture capitalists/investors look for) – then you might understand why people deem your numbers to be fantasy.

                • as i noted above..big changes will be happening soon @ whoar..

                  ..further defining that audience will be part of that..

                  ..but..i am still puzzled..that you seem unable to see/understand that 50 notifications a day..each and every day..if not wanted..would be a heavy spam-attack..

                  ..each and every day..

                  ..so you would unsubscribe..n’est ce pas..?

                  ..(were they only getting a low number of notification from me/whoar..say 3-4 a day..yr question would be valid..

                  ..but just that 50 a day..every day..

                  ..would drive you/anyone crazy..if you/they didn’t really want them..

                  ..so..just for that reason..i feel i have nothing more to prove..

                  ..as far as that is concerned..)

                  (tho’ the specifics of yr advice have been taken on board..)

                  ..phillip ure..

                  • MaxFletcher

                    If I was a venture capitalist and I got an email that said something like:

                    …dear max…

                    …i have a blog which gets a load of visitors…

                    ..would you like to invest…


                    …50 a day…every day…

                    …sounds pretty good…


                    I’m not sure I would be terribly impressed

        • lprent

          RSS pickups are completely pointless, there is no real way to find out if anyone is reading them. For instance I pick up blubberboys blog posts and comments via RSS and seldom read any of them. It is just a convenient way to have them available when something comes up and he deletes/hides something that used to be public – something that he does frequently (he does like rewriting his own history rather a lot). I do that from a server in a batch process with a number of other major blog sites.

          But I never even look at the stats to find out how many people are using RSS on our site, it has no value. The feeds are provided via feedburner. That just picks up new material frequently.

          Similarly using a web server log reader is useful for finding out where traffic is coming from. But most of that is bots. It isn’t useful for finding out how many humans read a site.

          Alexa is completely pointless. It relies on having a tracking device on your browser. When I tested that back in 2010, just adding it to my browser was enough to shift the results. Basically noone uses that pile of shite apart from suckers.

          If you look around the local blogs just look at the publically accessible data, the you can simply read the SiteMeter and StatCounter public summaries. It is trivial to do. You can be sure that most in Open Parachute’s list has one of those installed. I have that set up on wget so I can see if any of the other major blog sites is trending upwards or downwards.

          Generally the most accurate is google analytics for our own analysis of trends on our site for humans, and looking at internal server loadings for resources for how much strain the bots are placing on the site.

          Our best performance measures relates to how much effect are we having on the local political scene. The stats that I look at a lot in terms of targeting is the number of unique humans regularly reading our site from NZ and the content density of comments – essentially the posts provoking debate.

          At heart I’m a production orientated person and quite ‘lazy’ in that particular way that production and engineers people are – basically we don’t like wasting versatile humans to do things that dumb machines are good at. I also like measures that look at effort vs results (ie productivity). We get results from the very very little effort. Very few posts compared to most political blog sites. In NZ with the political sites with high traffic, I think that only Dimpost and HardNews have a higher productivity.

          And unlike blubberboy, we aren’t trying to desperately scrabble a living from providing clickbait for googling. He wastes most of his effort in trying to satisfy advertisers.

          • phillip ure

            i agree with yr comments about rss..in general..

            ..and agree..that were a low number of links going thru each day..they are easy to ignore..

            ..but 50 notifications a day..in yr inbox..?..and each and every day..?

            ..that i think is the difference that having that high number of posts every day makes..

            ..that they take it..continue to take it..

            ..means they can validly be gauged as an attentive audience..

            ..the exact number of pageviews indeterminable..

            ..but significant in number..(that 50 x 20 ensures that..)

            ..phillip ure..

            • Murray Olsen

              most people have…in general

              …spam filters…


              • McFlock

                Come to think of it, I almost never check my mailnbox of FB notifications – autofiltered to its own little box, never crosses my path unless I want it to..

  3. JustLikeTigerWoods 3

    ““Mate, that is just Wellington beltway politics,” he said yesterday. “Government has been trying to throw the kitchen sink at me in the last couple of weeks just to discredit me.””

    You did it to yourself, “mate”.

    ABC will win.

    • ianmac 3.1

      Who exactly is your ABC JLTW? You must have a close relationship with them or maybe you are just trying to ferment disunity.

      • fender 3.1.1

        Perhaps we could have a collection to raise some green fees for poor wee Tiger to go play somewhere else, it can’t be much fun lugging Key’s bent clubs around every day…

      • JustLikeTigerWoods 3.1.2

        How do you think the media gets these stories? By actually working?

      • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) 3.1.3

        I go for the attempting to divide and rule option myself re JLTigerW & this ABC crap JLTW is burbling on about.

        • weka

          JAAT or JAS, take your pick.

          (just another astro turfer/shill).

          • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill)

            +1 Thanks I didn’t know those acronyms – sums it up nicely.

            • weka

              I just made them up 🙂

              • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill)

                Oh funny! I often have to look up acronyms and so just assumed they were well known ones that [as usual] I wasn’t familiar with!

      • Plotkin 3.1.4

        Goff, Mallard, and King are the leaders of the ABC faction. Robertson in the background awaiting his turn.

    • thatguynz 3.2

      And just like your namesake you are disingenuous and deceitful.

      If you think that the Labour Party membership will let ABC “win” I suspect you’re in la-la land..

      • JustLikeTigerWoods 3.2.1

        Labour Party membership will do what they need to do after they get a Bill English level result. Power will be returned to caucus.

        • ianmac

          Who are your ABC Tiger Kitten?

          • Enough is Enough

            It is a Right Wing conspiracy that is nothing more than a load of snapper bollocks.

            Garner, Gower, Fat Whale, Fat DPF, National Party Research Unit, every polling company, JustLikeTigerWoods….

            I think thats the full membership.

            And no I am not spouting bullshit. Outside of those members who has a problem with Cunnliffe.

        • Skinny

          Speaking of National’s hush word ‘Power’ there is a mounting backlash to soaring power prices, and all the vented anger by consumers getting torched by greed power & line supply company’s are going bite you right-wing fuckers in the arse. I hope it’s the coldest winter on record. This will guarantee Key-National are thrown out of Government in disgrace. You lot better pray it’s a mild winter because the vote slippage is going to cost you dearly.


          Btw It’s easy to run a goodwill-donation campaign to assist the elderly-struggling poor to keep them warm. No political scandal in donating to such an honorable cause, it will even suck in some of your core voters who signed the anti assets sale

          Won’t be very comtable being a National MP with all the hard steers being directed their way.

        • geoff

          No point airing your wet dreams here, Tiger. You shouldn’t deny what is happening in the Labour party, which is authentic grass-roots driven renewal. You should instead prepare for the consequences, leftwing democratic socialism in this country again.

          I know it must sadden you to think of a possible future where the masses in NZ are not down-trodden, but that future is coming.

          • Skinny

            As a Nation we should aspire to a Livable Income just like the Swiss are Mooting. Of course that would require the top 5% paying their share of taxes along with the Corporations.


          • JustLikeTigerWoods

            Few people want a return to economics circa 1975. You are living in a total fantasy world if you think that’s what the NZ working class wants.

            Why can’t you come up with some new ideas rather than saying “it will be different this time around”?

            • Skinny

              You got the ‘few’ part right, I assumes your talking about the few people at the top that have all the wealth and don’t want to share it. The last economic meltdown caused by the failed neo liberal experiment calls for a total rethink.

              In an evolving World I thought by the year 2000 we would be working a 4 day working week with an income for all to enjoy the pleasant thing in life for the other 3 days. Look what the working drones suffer these days longer hours less pay, no quality family time to enjoy. I feel guilty we disturbed the Maori’s more rewarding work/life balance since our arrival.

              • JustLikeTigerWoods

                Yes, sounds lovely! Hey, make it three days, you slave driver.

                Little problem.

                There’s no money to pay for your fantasy, unless you find,say, a few massive oil fields. Like Norway.

                Sounds to me like you’re trying to justify your own position and your reluctance to take business risk. You could, after all, start a company and employ people on those terms, if you truly believe such arrangements make people more productive and such an arrangement will provide the required economic surplus.

                One wonders why you – and all your mates here – do not do so?

                • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill)

                  To be quite frank JLTW – why do you think anyone cares what Skinny’s comment sounds like to you? Because your fantasical and hollow comments read like someone seriously deluded in general and crazed in particular…can you perhaps change your name to Just Like Key’s National?

                  • JustLikeTigerWoods

                    The problem with the idealised scenario Skinny outlines is that no one has come up with the not insignificant detail of how we pay for it. Norway does it by selling $90B+ worth of oil per year.

                    How are you going to pay for even lower productivity per head than we have now and – presumably – fund even more social spending at the same time?

                    There aren’t enough rich pricks in a population of 4m to strip to provide that kind of surplus, and there will be even fewer if you try.

                    • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill)

                      Tell me how we can afford not to have a livable wage?

                      Tell me why anyone should work for a wage that doesn’t cover living costs just so someone can make more profit?

                      Write something, anything to me that proves you can see the value of anything other than profits for a few because if you can’t I don’t see that even you benefit from the nonsense you attempt to spout here.

                    • JustLikeTigerWoods

                      “Tell me how we can afford not to have a livable wage?”

                      We have a liveable wage, else people would, by definition, be dead.

                      “Tell me why anyone should work for a wage that doesn’t cover living costs just so someone can make more profit?”

                      Don’t. Start your own business and pay yourself whatever you like. You’re trying to tell me you, and your hundreds of mates on here, have no idea how to do this for themselves? Why not?

                      “Write something, anything to me that proves you can see the value of anything other than profits for a few”

                      See above.

                    • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill)

                      Nope – there are numerous welfare supplements funded by tax payers that supplement the unlivable wages some are on.

                      Trust you will be voting for a party that raises taxes substantially in order to be able to afford your approach to wages. You will be won’t you Tiger?…

                    • Skinny

                      I have many Swiss friends in a small village on the Swiss/German boarder they come down to holiday with me regularly. Over there they make the corporations pay up and the wealthy also pay up so they are able to now move to the link below. They also put controversial issues like asset sales to a referendum.

                  • JustLikeTigerWoods

                    The credibility problem the left have is this:

                    The ideas are nice. We figure out what would be a fair and pleasant life for all, and we do that! Easy, right?

                    Well, no, it isn’t. The problem is paying for it. How so we pay for it? No, raising taxes doesn’t work. There isn’t enough productivity as it is, and not enough rich pricks, so it’s like trying to squeeze ten cups of juice out of one, small orange.

                    So how?

                    Returning to the ideas of the 70s won’t work. We changed it because it didn’t work. So what’s the new method of achieving the Good Life?

                    • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill)

                      Nah the credibility the right have is this:

                      They start with ‘profits for a few’ and work everything around that and respond that ‘nothing is affordable’, ‘there is no alternative either’ unless it means that a few a making large profits.

                      When the right say ‘we can’t afford it’ some people just believe it because they are pliable, yet otheres just switch off – the argument is so self serving and hollow it hardly seems worth arguing the point.

                      Tell me please, how do we afford wages for many that don’t cover living costs?

                      Here I’ll give you a big hint


                      So why is it that the right are the ones that bleat on about the cost of welfare – when they are the ones that create it then? That is what I would like to know.

                    • JustLikeTigerWoods

                      Welfare supplements are for the 10% that the capitalist system can’t help. There will always be those who, for whatever reason, cannot create value for others. So, our mixed system does this by taxing economic surplus from those who can create value.

                      You’re giving me a string of abusive cliches, but you’re still not telling me how we pay for the scenario you outline. The money must come from somewhere, and, no, there isn’t enough economic surplus in the system to pay for it, so the empty mantra of “tax the rich” isn’t the answer. The numbers don’t work.

                      So, how do you boost economic output sufficiently to pay for the Good Life?

                    • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill)

                      Can you please show me the numbers for:

                      a) all people on supplementary welfare in NZ

                      b) the profits being made in this country are not enough to support paying decent wages


                    • JustLikeTigerWoods

                      If you raise wages without raising productivity only the numbers change. Your buying power stays the same.

                      The answer lays in here:


                      Summed up by left-wing economist Paul Kugman here:

                      “Productivity isn’t everything, but in the long run it is almost everything. A
                      country’s ability to improve its standard of living over time depends almost
                      entirely on its ability to raise its output per worker.”

                      So, how do you raise output per worker? Norway does it by sidestepping the issue and selling a lot of oil, so the “output” per worker is underwritten.

                    • lprent []

                      So, how do you raise output per worker?

                      I can tell you how you don’t do it. You don’t do it by dropping the least productive workers into unemployment or under employment. That raises the productivity value for those in work. National loves to proclaim their ‘productivity’ improvements and that is how they have gotten it. However when you look at productivity per adult, it drops it considerably…

                      National – crazy about lying with numbers.

                      As for how you do it. That is easy to do. You grow high value added industries. For instance http://blog.potentia.co.nz/country-needs-technology-advice/ from a tech recruiter

                      We are a small technology market with 62,000ish people in New Zealand. This small village of folk is spread around technology users, vendors (systems integrators, OEM’s and distributors) and software product shops. The last of these three is where I believe our future lies. Why? Software product companies positively grow the economy in a high value-added sense and don’t compete with other outsourcing countries of the world – we cannot compete on hourly rates with India or the Philippines. We should be adding ‘thinking’ IP driven industries and people to the New Zealand economy. Another way to consider this is leverage. Building something once and selling it thousands of times over, not selling a finite resource- time

                      We need more of both, but today’s rant is focused on Graduates. By now you’ll have heard me say (enough?) that our ICT grads dropped by 45% between 2005-2010. This period directly aligns with when demand increased at its highest ever rate in NZ.

                      Whilst this number is creeping slowly back up, it’s insufficient to meet the voracious demands of the industry.

                      I’d point out that when I went into programming as work in 1990, the number of people in ICT was more like five thousand. We didn’t have a ICT export industry. These days it is something a 700 million dollar industry with an average annual growth rate of about 10%. http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/8926686/ICT-services-exports-to-outpace-imports

                      The only real problem is that we can’t train enough people nor can we get them to stay. Since National has essentially no-one apart from Maurice Williamson with any technical expertise (and his was from the ark), they also have no idea how to foster these types of jobs – which is why the numbers of startups in the sector has dropped to a tenth of what it was in the previous five years. Our ICT students who manage to find a university or tech place in ICT (why would a university create high cost student places, when they could train an accountant for a third of the cost?) leave because they can find easy entry jobs with better wages offshore to pay off their student debt.

                      So the general answer to your question is to boot the milk-powder party (National), and put in any other party. They all have better ideas and skills about how to grow overall productivity.

                    • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill)

                      You are skipping a step JLTW, shouldn’t we assess the state of profits currently before we attempt to squeeze more out of workers, I therefore shall repeat myself:

                      Can you please show me the numbers for:

                      a) all people on supplementary welfare in NZ

                      b) the profits being made in this country are not enough to support paying decent wages


                    • geoff

                      You’ve got zero credibility, Tiger.
                      All of economic history says you are wrong.
                      When the masses do not share in the profits of the economy, as is the case now, then the economy tanks.
                      If everyone gets a fair go, as they did in the western economies from post war thru to the 60s, then the economy goes fantastically well.
                      Economic productivity has risen dramatically since the 70’s, mostly due to technological progress. The difference between now and then is that the gains from productivity have all been siphoned off to the very rich thus creating the massive wealth inequality we see today.
                      So in summary, Tiger, you’re completely clueless.

                    • how do we pay for it..?

                      ..we put a financial transaction tax on the banksters..

                      ..and we get that $5 billion the rich/corporates (criminally) rip off of tax revenue..

                      ..each and every year..

                      ..how’s that for starters..?

                      ..phillip ure..

                • Skinny

                  No I will stick to my well paid Government job thank you. However I will continue to strongly oppose consultants & contractors rorting the taxpayer. You can take it as a given that I will contribute to forward policy remits to ensure the Labour party cuts these parasites off at the knee’s and employ value for money public and state workers.

  4. weka 4

    Peak Water.

    “By 2030, global demand for water will outstrip supply by 40 percent, a surefire recipe for great suffering. Five hundred scientists recently told UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon that our collective abuse of water has caused the planet to enter “a new geologic age” and that the majority of the planet’s population lives within 31 miles of an endangered water source.”

    Water ethics for sustainable use –

    Water is a human right and must be more equitably shared.

    Water is a common heritage of humanity and of future generations and must be protected as a public trust in law and practice. Water must never be bought, hoarded, sold, or traded as a commodity on the open market and governments must maintain the water commons for the public good, not private gain.

    Water has rights too, outside its usefulness to humans. Water belongs to the Earth and other species.

    Water can teach us how to live together if only we will let it. There is enormous potential for water conflict in a world of rising demand and diminishing supply. But just as water can be a source of disputes, conflict, and violence, water can bring people, communities, and nations together in the shared search for solutions.

    from http://www.alternet.org/saving-our-blue-future?

    We think we are immune to this in NZ because we have so much water and it still looks relatively clean despite dairying. But we are fast diminishing this resource in myriad of ways. eg contamination of ground water has a lag time. We could stop all polluting of water today, and it would still be years before the water ran clean again. If we want to get this right we have to do it now.

    • Lanthanide 4.1

      I’d say Peak Water is probably even harder to predict than Peak Oil. Water is to a large extent a renewable resource; of course that depends on historical weather patterns, but these are going to change. And there are lots of population areas drawing water out of ancient aquifers and melting glaciers that have no ready alternative. Although these issues might be known about, there doesn’t seem to be a lot of action being taken by the affected communities/countries.

      • weka 4.1.1

        Water is also a finite resource. Part of the problem is that we are mostly divorced from nature now and so no longer have direct experiences of the limitations of living on a finite planet. Oil has made this even more so, by propping up standards of living that aren’t sustainable.

        People who live on rainwater tanks in NZ, or even bore water, have a much better appreciation of this than people who are on town supply, but even there it’s just a matter of being able to afford to ship water in.

  5. Marak 5

    Roy Morgan Poll is out.

    Labours up


    • mickysavage 5.1


    • Disraeli Gladstone 5.2


      There doesn’t seem to be an individual press release, but the bottom one (17 Feb – 2 Mar) is new.

      National – 48.5% (+ 0.5)
      Labour – 30.5% (+ 0.5)
      Greens – 10.5% (- 1.5)
      NZ First – 4.5% (- 1)

      So yes, Labour up, but probably at the expense of the Greens.

      If you take away the underlying bias, I think there is now a confirmed trend back toward the government. National may be looking at around 45%.

      There’s going to be a lot of policy announcements, debates, gotcha politics, etc but I think it’s really going to come down to this:

      Will the winter see people being bitten in their wallet with rising energy prices and probably an interest hike?

      If so, National’s support drops for not handling the economy well. If not, National gets a third term for a perceived job well done.

      Democracy is fickle.

  6. JustLikeTigerWoods 6

    “Water has rights too”

    I am laughing so hard right now….

    • freedom 6.1

      If the planet that gives you life has no rights, how can you claim any?

    • weka 6.2

      “Water has rights too”

      I am laughing so hard right now….

      Only because you’re relatively ignorant and have probably never had to think about rights seriously. How do you think that human rights came about? You think those are funny too?

      • JustLikeTigerWoods 6.2.1

        Water has no more rights than a rock.

        Are you going to argue sperm and an egg have rights? Both consist almost entirely of water.

        Take that to its logical conclusion.

        • weka

          Why do humans have rights?

        • marty mars

          “In 1997 the New Zealand government returned to the Ngāi Tahu elected tribal council – Te Rūnanga o Ngāi Tahu, ownership of all naturally occurring pounamu within their tribal area. ”


          Rock has rights, and so does water.

          • JustLikeTigerWoods

            I imagine any rights the water has don’t apply to the water you consume. Just the water other people might consume, huh.

            • weka

              You still haven’t said why you think humans have rights.

              • JustLikeTigerWoods

                Mainly because we all happen to agree we do.

                Does the water you drink have a right not to be drunk by you? Or is it okay if you drink it, just not “those” people somewhere else?

                • weka

                  So you believe that humans decided who has rights. Why can we not decide that nature has rights too?

                  We are part of nature. It’s ridiculous to suggest that there is an issue with humans drinking water. What agreeing that nature has rights does is extend the right to drinking water (or swimming water or bathing water etc) to all of nature, not just humans. This means that we have a responsibility to not pollute, or generally fuck up water, beyond the imperatives of our personal needs for water.

  7. freedom 7

    This is not good,

    and then I googled “John Key is ” (include the space after is),

    so if the article is accurate then Kiwis believe John Key is ” an idiot, a liar, evil, ruining New Zealand” Maybe the Herald should do more google searches.

    • ianmac 7.1

      Not sure what “This” means freedom. Just takes me to the Herald front page???

      • freedom 7.1.1

        thanks ianmac,
        I didn’t double check the link, (It all looks fine when putting the link into the post, then when submitting post all sorts of extraneous stuff has been turning up)
        Here is the link

        • weka

          “Mr Elers said that given the results for Maori were based largely on what New Zealanders put in Google searches, it raised the issue of how Kiwis viewed Maori.

          “What are we actually inputting in there and what kind of mentality or section of society of New Zealand is there that would do such a thing?”

          I would guess the reason is that most people who do “Maori are ” google searches, are people who are using phrases like “Maori are not indigenous” “Maori are stupid” etc because they want some affirmation of their prejudices. People who believe Maori are just like other humans most likely don’t need google to tell them that, so the predictive searches are weighted towards the racists. I don’t think this means that most NZers think Maori are stupid or not indigenous etc.

    • s y d 7.2

      “John Key is” for sale?

  8. Chooky 8

    For a fantastic dramaticised graphic illustration as to why teaching for mean standardised testing does NOT WORK in EDUCATION ….and why teachers must NOT be evaluated on the results of this testing !………watch ‘The Wire’ fourth season ( DVD 5 disc set) …and this comes out of the USA! It is brilliant…and it is the real USA, not the Hollywood version

    John Key and NACT are meddling with our State high quality , secular , ‘free’ education system…. to the detriment of all young New Zealanders

    NACT’s top down, one size fits all prescriptions for education…. regardless of where young New Zealanders are at and their backgrounds , teachers as real educators and best education practice …..play into the hands of privatisation, big overseas business which wants to get their hands on charter schools, social engineering, crushing of teachers as educators and their rights via teacher unions.

    …. John Key and NACT will create a sterile education experience and system for young New Zealanders …it is a fascist education progamme….and it will fail ….and young New Zealanders and real teacher educators will pay the price…This government MUST GO!

  9. greywarbler 9

    Information is freedom – is that a truism or cliche that gets thrown about? Travellerev you probably have read this.
    This book about the USA, its author interviewed by Kathrn Ryan this morning is enlightening on the way the heavy federal bulk of the USA shifts slowly when it comes to making important decisions, and that is just for the country’s benefit and protection.

    Also the role of intelligence gathering and the desire by the central mode of government to keep it secret from the other parts of government, as noticed when studying 9/11, goes way back and local officers have had to make their own plans, their own provisions – cf Boston Marathaon.
    There is a lot to think about revealed in the book.

    Radionz Notes
    10:05 Feature: Howard Blum – American journalist
    Howard Blum, American journalist and author of Dark Invasion 1915: Germany’s Secret War and the Hunt for the First Terrorist Cell in America,the true-life tale of German spying and sabotage on American soil during World War One and the campaign and the effort of American law enforcement to crack the ring.
    Can’t see audio.

  10. lprent 10

    Drat – looks like I broke the cron last night. No updates for the Feed.

    I’ll fix when I stop for a break.

  11. freedom 11


    Cannot comment on the content as I have not watched it yet, (I don’t have the data budget for video these days)

    just sharing it

    • Bill 11.1

      Good interview.

    • Chooky 11.2

      thanx freedom +1000 …do hope you get to view this yourself and you get your budget many times over

      what a coolly, intelligent , brilliant and principled and patriotic American Snowden is! …He is a credit to the great USA!….He is an American HERO if ever there was one ! ( Obama should get on his knees and kiss his feet!)

      ….I know of people in London who are working towards getting Snowden awarded the Nobel Prize for Peace ….if ever anyone deserved it, it is this young American !!!!!

      ( and by God, doesnt he look like George Orwell?!…almost makes one believe in reincarnation ..or maybe there is an Orwell gene cloned out there?…..Also very interesting is that he came from a conservative background and for much of his life was what one would term a “conservative right -wing” American …..Shows that principled moral thinking a la Lawrence Kohlberg can come from people of all political persuasions…and most unexpectedly they take heroic action….As Snowden said himself, he has been on a learning experience and it shows that anyone can

  12. greywarbler 12

    Christchurch residents getting flooded out more than three times in recent years in some areas.
    A plan is under way, but won’t reach fruition for two? years.

    David Cunliffe rightly says this is poor. But let’s have that again, louder please. And let’s start asking – Again – what good is Brownlee in his role of Czar of Christchurch? Is he there primarily to make sure that money flows as smoothly to the businesses rebuilding the CBD?

    Perhaps the dissenting residents of Chch could ask the local Maori of Otautahi if they could devise a haka in which all races could participate to bring some fresh attention to their needs to be attended to immediately or sooner if possible.

    There is a very good paper by Simon Lambert at Lincoln University on response to the earthquakes by Maori, and it says that local iwi who were Ngai Tahu for the Canterbury earthquakes were prominent in recovery. The large urban marae of Nga Hau E Wha quickly established a Centre as a pivotal point for dealing with problems and co-ordination. They might wish to see more and faster remedial work and care, and listen to such an idea as a haka for Christchurch.
    Maori Resilience to the Otautahi earthquakes – Lincoln University

    • PapaMike 12.1

      I understand that the “Plan” will take two years, not the implementation of the storm water system, following approval of the plan. It will take years to actually complete. It is difficult as the whole area is a recognised flood plain, which appears to have dropped 40cms since the Earthquakes. Not an easy undertaking and will cost a lot of money for pumping stations.

      • greywarbler 12.1.1

        It does sound complicated especially with the lower ground level. Which is why something should be happening for these people. The authorities have had time to get an understanding of the difficulties – have these people not been covered by any scheme that is viable for them I wonder.

        Waiting and getting your few possessions ruined is just as bad, if that’s the only place to rent and you have no choice, as having your possessions and house degraded by water and muck. Patience is a virtue only in short doses, after a while it’s the squeaky wheel and the prepared possible escape plans that give the authorities a way out to choose from. Possibly the people will have to shift away from the area. How can they stay without huge expense to try and make them safe from flooding?

  13. Te Reo Putake 13

    Latest Roy Morgan out:


    Nats up marginally, as are Labour. Greens drop (the KDC affect?). ACT surge to 1% 😉

    • ianmac 13.1

      Conservatives up 1.5% to 2.5%. Perhaps Mr Craig is a clever mastermind?

      • Te Reo Putake 13.1.1

        I hear Colin Craig is now going to sue you, Ianmac. His press release reads:

        “This statement by ianmac is a lie in both respects, in terms of my views. I am neither clever, nor a mastermind.

        Now I am suing ianmac for defamation. I have never held either of those views and it is my strong belief that New Zealanders want a much greater level of debate from their bloggers. No one should be able to tell outright lies about anyone else and not be challenged. Unless they believe in an invisible omnipitent entity that rules all our lives, obviously.”

        • ianmac

          Bring it on Colin Craig. See you in Court.
          Now anyone give me a few dollars? A few hundred thousand would be OK. Thanks

    • greywarbler 13.2

      ACT up by 100%!!!!!!! Actually no. I think there’s a trick that unmathematical brains, as mine is, do not at first discern. I think it goes like this. If you have 0%, then 100% of that is still 0%. So sorry all you excited ones who thought I had given you a FACToid. Still 1% that’s awfully good isn’t it. I mean it just shows that there is a strata out there who go in for the rare and marvellous. In the early pioneer days in the USA they would probably have worked from striped tents, riding with the travelling show and selling their snake oil that keeps ticks and lice at bay. Not a Political Party quite like it!

  14. Plotkin 14

    The Herald gives advice to Mr Cunliffe: Please, do not “forget” the name of your donors.

    • bad12 14.1

      John Armstrong quoting Paul Henry, a blind man quoting the village idiot seems a reasonable comparison…

      • bad12 14.1.1

        Which reminds me, is it not sheer hypocrisy for Slippery the Prime Minister to be swinging a big stick at TVNZ for employing a number of people on the payroll who are aspiring Labour politicians or who have become so during their employment,

        Given that the National Party failure, and,generally brainless fool Paul Henry is at present over on TV3 broadcasting party political attacks against David Cunliffe,

        The only reason Henry has a job at all is that the taxpayer is propping up TV3 through NZ On Air funding and should all such funds be directed to be spent on the States broadcastors as i would expect a Labour/Green Government to order and TV3 collapsed under the weight of its debts and bullshit,well that’s just the competitive world isn’t it…

  15. Puckish Rogue 15


    Some good advice for Tricky Cunliffe but fortunately for the right he and his advisors won’t take it on board

  16. blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) 16

    The input from rightwing shills have really been the pits in recent weeks – there is nothing even resembling intelligent discussion being offered by them – worse than usual – what is the point of having these creatures lurking this site? – it is becoming off putting – they provide no justification or links to justify their hollow comments and come across as being in the employ of National/Act – [although they are probably stupid enough to be doing it for free.]

    • Rosie 16.1

      +1 Blue Leopard.

      Let’s spray them with Deet. They are time wasters. These shills are like the sandhoppers who nip your ankles and try to ruin your day at the beach, when the sun is shining and everything is looking good.

      We have an election to win and a country to reclaim so we need to be better and bigger than them. I would fully support any moves for a site wide consensus to enter a DNFTT agreement. Engaging with them is futile, they do not learn anything, no one is performing a public service by doing so.

      • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) 16.1.1

        Is not feeding the trolls just ignoring them?

        Because there are some comments that are definitely best ignored, however there are some that when left unresponded to make it seem like we are supplying National & Wact with free spread of their noxious notoriously unquestioned memes and this sux. (i.e. they get to repeat these things and that is how they work – through repetition people start believing them)

        I was going to suggest a 🙄 campaign …yet not sure that this is any different to just not responding…

        • greywarbler

          I wish that when I go to some trouble to put up a comment with some background and facts that people of a left persuasion would have a go at it, praising or finding weaknesses instead of spending their time playing footsie with trial who don’t give a damn..

          I’m surprised that anyone here can find a reason to keep responding to trials – arguing with them doesn’t change anyone’s mind in the background. Those who think like them do not read your reply and consider – `Now that is a point’, well in 99% of the cases that would be so.

          So why do you think that anyone should do battle with these gormless people? Because they annoy you? And you waste time on them when you should be putting up or critiquing good ideas. Some people here seem to never learn anything any more than the trials.

          You certainly are putting less energy into supporting the rise of the left than in futile arguing about things that probably are not relevant to the lefts urgent need to get re-elected. If you don’t agree about what is not relevant then you should be arguing the case with someone who does give a damn on this or other left blogs.

          • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill)

            My answer to you question is contained in my comment – the only time I bother to ‘converse’ with these creatures is when I don’t want the mindless meme they are propagating to go by unanswered, this is of great concern to me, yet I am getting sick of even doing this – and have less time now to do so anyway.

            To be quite frank, I am hoping moderators will read this conversation and consider banning those that are propagating false ideas and not supplying links and justifications for these – because they are truly becoming a waste of time and space on this site. I am slow to agree with/suggest banning – yet the ‘calibre’ of what is going on with a lot of the ‘right promoting things’ over the last few weeks – really is getting beyond the pale and actually putting me off coming here to read the comments. I can go and read a newspaper if I want to read mindless National propaganda with no justification – I am getting tired of reading such here.

            It is fine if sincerity of belief is shown by rightwing people, in fact it is most interesting to converse with such when links and a real debate is offered – helps deepen one’s understanding of the issues – but those simply putting in useless rightwing propaganda and having a ‘thats not true – yes it is’ type argument as is occurring with an increasing frequency over the last few weeks – yep that is a waste of time, my time and those reading these pages – and I hope that some severity is shown toward those applying these mindless tactics

            [-I note writing these last two paragraphs is at the risk of being banned myself for suggesting how this site be moderated – all final decisions are in the moderators hands of course…erhem…trying to mitigate the risk to myself now…obvious I know… 🙁 ]

            • Rosie

              This is a reply to both Warbly and Blue Leopard:

              Just quickly, I’m sorry (because I’m in the middle of making dinner and feeding the ducks – not making dinner OUT of the ducks….) this message may come across as disconnected and overly brief

              “I wish that when I go to some trouble to put up a comment with some background and facts that people of a left persuasion would have a go at it, praising or finding weaknesses instead of spending their time playing footsie with trial who don’t give a damn..”

              Warbs, I, as I’m sure many others do, do read your thoughtful posts. I just don’t have the time to give the equivalent thoughtful reply. I try to limit my time here at TS here as it is! Leaving a +1 would seem that I’m saying “yes, yes agree to everything” where as I may have questions or points to clarify. So it goes apparently unnoticed. It’s not the case.

              Blue Leopard: Your third paragraph. Yes I agree with the “It is fine if sincerity of belief is shown by rightwing people,……..” but what is happening is something different, and targeted, well that how I am seeing it.

              I really think that any response to of these riverbank dwelling creatures is just keeping their pay masters happy. I say, lets put them out of work, but thats up to others as I rarely engage with them.

              Today I spoke with a Labour /Green voting GP about where we find ourselves in NZ under this govt. Guts of the conversation was he had given up hope of a Left leading govt purely because of media spin. He had bought into it fully. That’s only after a few weeks of hard out spin from the right. It’s only March. Stopping these spin meister’s in their tracks and concentrating on the real work is what we need to do.

              • greywarbler

                Good points,

                It’s not just about me and whether I get read. It applies to many worthy posts that have something to add to our sum of knowledge and our tactical situation as well. I find that some posts hardly show any comment at all.

                Yet there is the extensive response to some PG type spreading down the page. In the end it can be hard to find anything worth reading.

                I don’t see the blog as on line talkback. For sure Open Mike is open to anybody to bring up their thoughts for the day. It is a left-leaning post, so that is fairly broad territory, but some treat is as a left leaning-post. There isn’t much to learn from their writing about things like – how they want to improve things for everybody, and what steps we should be taking.

                There are 15 around Tigerwood below. While I think he is RW, the discussion could be about ways of having four day weeks and some have done that. But just spending time slagging off TW is a waste of space. It seems to me that the thoughtful comments are dropping off and there is too much scrapping.

                • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill)

                  @ Greywarbler,

                  Yes that is a fair point re responses to TW, (which I am guilty of being one.)

                  The thing is TW put a post in and made a comment about shortening the working week, yet provided no links and a barb at the end. TW has been around this site long enough to know that people here are very thoughtful about looking for alternatives – therefore there is immediately disingenuoity in TW’s comment and no indication that there is any sincere interest in the part about shortened week. (i.e. providing an informative link) Combine this with the crap that was being written yesterday by TW (unfounded , unlinked, unjustified comments about ABC club) and I for one felt that McFlock’s comment was completely appropriate.

                  I take your point, though, it could have been turned around to focus on the increased leisure time point that TW raised – which perhaps eventually is what occurred.

                  I agree re the scrapping – too much of it is offputting – which is fairly well why I wrote my first comment.

                  I have yet to feel anyone has really addressed the issue re RW writing posts with National propaganda memes, no justification and the issue of ‘just ignoring’ them and how this leaves these memes on the page unquestioned – which I really do feel is harmful.

                  • JustLikeTigerWoods

                    I agree with lprent above, although differ on the methods.


                    Sir Paul Callaghan outlines both the problem and the solution. Start at 8.33 if you want to understand the productivity data, and why successive governments favour dairy. Essentially, without it, we’re very poor, indeed.

                    We don’t need many highly productive companies here to make a big difference for all. We don’t need everyone involved in highly productive industry – many aren’t capable, and/or they exist in support areas.

                    In order for us all to have a better life, more opportunity, higher wages, and shorter working weeks we need:

                    Around 100 highly productive, mid-level companies
                    To increase the depth of capital markets to fund them
                    Favourable tax treatment for said businesses in order that they build and stay here, as opposed to elsewhere
                    Government, of all flavours, to take entrepreneurialism and business development seriously. This means a culture shift in terms of education, operations and relationships with foreign markets.

                    Just saying we should “do more” with IT doesn’t make it so. I’m in IT. Many people here are, but how many of you are walking the talk? Money has never been cheaper, so if you have an idea and the drive, why aren’t you building these companies and employing capable New Zealanders?

                    • lprent

                      Money has never been cheaper, so if you have an idea and the drive, why aren’t you building these companies and employing capable New Zealanders?

                      It may be cheaper. However it isn’t much more readily available than it was 20 years ago. Most of the available cheap financing goes directly into property as a relatively risk-free and tax incentivised investment. Trying to raise money for any kind of startup often borders on the impossible. Certainly you can’t borrow it from banks – which is the type of money you’re describing.

                      Assuming that they survive the first few years, most startups take at least 5 years to achieve profitability, and probably more than 10 before they stop investing most of their profits back into expansion. So you’re only going to get capital from people who are willing to sink money in for a decade.

                      Which is why much of the investment that is coming into startups these days comes from people who have already done exactly that. By a large margin, most of the startup investment for tech investments these days comes directly or indirectly from people who have started their own tech businesses and taken then to a cashout.

                      The main difference these days is that there are more of them. However the government has removed most incentives (like Labours useful and wide ranging R&D tax credits) for them to put money into risker startups. So they mostly maintaining their investments in companies that already have revenue streams.

                      I agree about why this government focuses on dairy. However it is still at its essence a commodity product that is currently on a boom. The booms of previous commodity products (seals, whales, gold, frozen sheep, wool, beef, deer, kiwifruit, forestry, etc etc) all petered out in the typical price reductions that happen as other places hop into the same commodity. That is why Europe gets most of its kiwifruit from Italy these days.

                      Basically the conservatives in NZ (currently represented by National) following the same dumbarse mistake over the last 150 years is why we have persistent trade imbalances and a plateaued and even reducing standard of living after each boom dies.

                    • JustLikeTigerWoods

                      “It may be cheaper. However it isn’t much more readily available than it was 20 years ago. Most of the available cheap financing goes directly into property as a relatively risk-free and tax incentivised investment. Trying to raise money for any kind of startup often borders on the impossible. Certainly you can’t borrow it from banks – which is the type of money you’re describing”.

                      That’s the reason we need deeper capital markets. Government hasn’t encouraged them. National is doing a little in this respect with asset sales, but it’s not enough.

                      Cunliffe outlined one of the problems in the market with regards to smaller businesses lack of access to capital. He is right, and the first politican I’ve heard who appears to understand the issue. I await how he plans to change this.

                      “Assuming that they survive the first few years, most startups take at least 5 years to achieve profitability, and probably more than 10 before they stop investing most of their profits back into expansion. So you’re only going to get capital from people who are willing to sink money in for a decade”.

                      See above.

                      “The main difference these days is that there are more of them. However the government has removed most incentives (like Labours useful and wide ranging R&D tax credits) for them to put money into risker startups. So they mostly maintaining their investments in companies that already have revenue streams”.

                      R&D tax credits does have problems with abuse. I think we need a lot more than R&D credits. We need a major revamp of taxation around startups.

                      “I agree about why this government focuses on dairy. However it is still at its essence a commodity product that is currently on a boom. The booms of previous commodity products (seals, whales, gold, frozen sheep, wool, beef, deer, kiwifruit, forestry, etc etc) all petered out in the typical price reductions that happen as other places hop into the same commodity. That is why Europe gets most of its kiwifruit from Italy these days”.


                      “Basically the conservatives in NZ (currently represented by National) following the same dumbarse mistake over the last 150 years is why we have persistent trade imbalances and a plateaued and even reducing standard of living after each boom dies”.

                      I think it’s because no party/government understands the times we’re living in. Every party in parliament is living in the past. They have no answers.

                      National are more business friendly. LabGreen, with a few rare exceptions, would be a disaster, although I await policy detail and look forward to being pleasantly surprised.

                • Rosie

                  Yes, I saw that Tiger woods thread re work hours………………Valid point raised in a sarcastic way. Why bother eh?

                  Anyway Warbs, I’m tired of wading through swamp so I’m going to quit commenting for some time.
                  I recall LPrent saying something about the amount of this ‘type’ of traffic increases around election year. I came across TS post 2011 election so missed all the “discussion’ prior to that – and I don’t want to hang around to witness pointless blather coming from you know-what-quarter and then seeing the lovely intelligent commenters here getting dragged down to their level by engaging with them. Like I already said, it achieves nothing.

                  Although I do want to have a conversation some time about the Scottish Referendum this year and I will also come back to put invites out to Wellington TS commenters if People’s Power Ohariu have any meetings and actions planned during campaign time. Oh, and Weekend Social! I’ll be there for that 🙂

                  Kia Ora.

                  • greywarbler

                    Hi Rosie I just thought I put a good supportive answer to you but where it is, what I did, who knows???
                    Do stick around we need you, I need to have commenters that I can rely on to say something sensible, practical and wide-thinking.

                    • Rosie

                      Thanks Warbs. I’ll be back. I just need a breather I think. I only got a few comments into today’s Open Mike before I gave up reading. I’m sick to death of the anti Cunliffe sentiment on top of everything else. It’s so manufactured. And there’s a new river bank dweller, aptly named Drongo. Groan.

                      Take care.

                    • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill)

                      Yeah plus one to Greywarbler’s request that you stick around Rosie!

                      “I’m sick to death of the anti Cunliffe sentiment on top of everything else. It’s so manufactured.”

                      ….and +1 to that too

          • Skinny

            Yes sorry Greywarbler quite true, I will bear that in mind from now on and look to reply and add opinions when I can.

            It’s a battle against their propaganda which attracts me to engage with the right. Although it’s the bigger fish that are nice to fry.

            • greywarbler

              Yes Skinny I think some of them make a nice meal, perhaps if we made it just one meal each then, no repeat comments, so not a feeding frenzy! And the little ones, they could be left most of the time maybe, as being too bony to be bothered with.

  17. JustLikeTigerWoods 17

    I like the idea of a four day week for all.

    I seldom work four days myself. Often three. Good life balance.

    So, why aren’t you doing likewise? Are you waiting for the government to wave a wand and make it so? If so, how does this work?

    I fear the left have grand ideas of what they would like life to be like, but lack any plan on how to bring it about.

    • McFlock 17.1

      I fear the left

      You could have just left it at that.

      You have the power to dictate your hours. Great. Not everyone does.

      • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) 17.1.1

        ha! good response McFlock; Just Like National does fear the left!

        • JustLikeTigerWoods

          No, it’s a non-answer.

          Tell me how we raise productivity, which creates a sufficient tax surplus in order to pay everyone more to take more time off.

          • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill)

            We don’t – those making huge profits need to lower their expectations – or share them

            • JustLikeTigerWoods

              With how many?

              Your singular redistribution idea fails because there is an insufficient wealth pool to redistribute from, and too many people seeking that redistribution.

              Our GDP P/C is 31,999 (US)

              • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill)

                It appears to be lower than that CIA factbook reckons it is US$30 400 per capita PPP

                This is a measure of economic activity though, not the ‘wealth pool’ – or the resources of a country.

                If wages went up – wouldn’t GDP go up too?

                If employment went up – wouldn’t productivity go up too?

                I’m unclear whether citing GDP is really very helpful at all as to whether this country can or can’t afford a system where people get paid decent wages OR whether we can afford a shorter working week.

                GDP does not appear to correlate negatively to shortening the working week:

                “While the Scandanavian countries boast high GDPs, the average workweek in those countries is no more than 37 hours per week. In contrast, the average worker in the U.S. may be the hardest working employee in Western countries, according to the UN International Labor Organization, working far more hours now than a generation ago, with a negative net increase in the standard of living.”

                The above quote is from: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wired-success/201309/why-the-gdp-is-not-good-measure-nations-well-being

                A discussion on what GDP does and doesn’t measure:


                “Considering these shortcomings, the practice of equating wealth or prosperity with GDP is completely indefensible. Wealth, loosely speaking, is the total of all resources belonging to a country, individual, group, or region. Using common sense, we can say that a change in wealth is equal to the amount of wealth being created and the amount being destroyed or used up.”

                • JustLikeTigerWoods

                  “If wages went up – wouldn’t GDP go up too?
                  If employment went up – wouldn’t productivity go up too?”

                  Depends how you’re achieving the increase.

                  If you’re doing it by taxing people more, then you reduce savings and investment, and the tax revenue that comes from it.

                  NZ has a savings and investment problem. We don’t need more consumption, particularly at the low end.

      • JustLikeTigerWoods 17.1.2

        I don’t “fear” the left, any more than I fear rocks. They both exist.

        I think the left, in NZ, have few answers to fundamental economic questions. The left in Norway seem a lot more clued up.

        • McFlock

          This rock is looming above your head, and sooner or later will win the government benches. And the longer it takes, the more momentum it will have.

          Currently we have at least 150,000-200,000 unemployed people who can fill in if people need to work reduced hours (most likely as a result of mandatory overtime penal rates). And they will of course have more money to distribute throughout the entire economy (unlike tax cuts for the already rich, which just circulates between the corporates and the relatively well off).

          • JustLikeTigerWoods

            Doesn’t bother me, I live in Wellington. Labour governments are good for Wellington as they inflate house prices.

            Not so good for the rest of the country, however, which is still left with a low productivity problem and Labour still have no idea how to solve it. National aren’t much better, but if you’re expecting a miracle, then you’ll be disappointed.

            Wishing it doesn’t make it so.

            • McFlock

              Actually, National are much worse than even a vaguely leftish labour government, no matter what scale you look at – gdp, unemployment, health, education…

              But surely you should be advocating in your own self interest? Go for the government that’s best for you, and everyone else does the same, and the best compromise on government will win out. And parties will compete to provide the best mix possible for their citizens…

              • JustLikeTigerWoods


                But I have no faith in any of them to do anything other than bumble along and operate in the best interests of their party and political careers. We’ve had, at best, mediocre government in NZ, but most of the time they’re hopeless.

            • phillip ure

              @ tigger woods..

              yr contention flies in the fact of productivity-gains evidence/stats..

              ..the problem is that workers have not seen a corresponding increase in their remuneration..

              ..and of course the poorest..just keep slipping further and further behind..

              ..this is the objective/destination of/from the neo-lib policies of the last three decades..

              ..keep workers pay down..increase bosses/shareholders pay..

              ..this is their mantra..

              ..phillip ure..

              • JustLikeTigerWoods

                Speak for yourself. My remuneration is fine.

                What are you waiting for? The tooth fairy?

            • geoff

              So you think inflated house prices are good.
              You’re a muppet.

              • JustLikeTigerWoods

                It’s the result of state intervention.

                Labour governments tend to spend up large on the state sector in Wellington. That money tends to go into commercial rents and land prices. The market doesn’t scale to meet demand, partly due to geography, but mostly due to building restrictions (environmental, council).

                That benefits existing land owners i.e. me.

                I play the hand I’m dealt.

    • weka 17.2

      Pretty sure you couldn’t work a 3 day week without other people working long hours for not much pay.

      • JustLikeTigerWoods 17.2.1

        I control what I can – in this case, my productivity.

        NZ workers could be a lot more productive. It’s not that they aren’t hard working, it’s just that so many choose to work in areas of low-productivity. Like tourism. And the state service.

      • phillip ure 17.2.2

        you could always split the week..

        ..businesses open seven days..two workers working 3.5 days a week…

        ..how difficult is that..?

        ..phillip ure..

        • Skinny

          Job share not used enough because profit not shared to pay a living wage Phil.

        • JustLikeTigerWoods

          Management overhead. Increased cost base. Return of scaling up not worth it, in my view.

          Why would I invite extra stress and risk? Work a little, live a lot is my motto.

          • phillip ure

            so..you just think of yrslf..?

            ..what age were you when you first read ayn rand..?

            ..phillip ure..

            • JustLikeTigerWoods

              I pay my net taxes, Phil. How about you?

              I might be tempted to take on the extra risk and effort if the state sweetened the deal. As it is, they just want to tie me up in legislation and taxes.

              I’m not a masochist, Phil.

              Did you watch Callaghan’s video I linked to above? What do you think?

  18. Morrissey 18

    Al Jazeera’s politically dictated animosity against a democratic government
    The Middle East’s version of the BBC is about as trustworthy as…. the BBC

    “….and we meet the Venezuelan students who have LOST CONFIDENCE in their country.”

    This sententious statement, uttered in the deepest, most pompous tone possible, came at the start of the Al Jazeera news bulletin (5 p.m. New Zealand time).

    The person assigned to “meet the students” was one Daniel Schweimler, whose sole contribution to the piece was to nod his head empathetically as invariably rich “students” grizzled about food shortages, blaming it all on the government, and repeated the preposterous line that there is “no future” in their country. There was not even the slightest attempt to put things in perspective, or to test the veracity or the motivation of these “students”.

    Since its journalists were assassinated by U.S. troops in Iraq, and it was demonized by Donald Rumsfeld, Al Jazeera has enjoyed a considerable degree of esteem by well meaning people in the West. However, judging by what I have seen of it over the last year or so, I believe this esteem is largely unwarranted. In fact, Al Jazeera is an unreliable witness, hopelessly compromised. It is liable to smear and undermine political “enemies” of the Qatari regime as elegantly and cynically as the BBC does for the British political establishment.

    Hapless Hollywood lightweight Jared Leto possibly got some of his ideas for that ludicrous speech he made last Sunday* from watching Al Jazeera. More serious people who actually want to understand what is happening in Venezuela will not trust Al Jazeera, or the BBC, or the New York Times. They will go somewhere like THIS….

    or HERE…

    Stupid and indolent people, like Jared Leto, will continue to rely on Al Jazeera, the BBC and the New York Times.

    * Monday afternoon in New Zealand.

    • Murray Olsen 18.1

      Al Jazeera isn’t bad as one of a number of sources. I tend to harvest information from all but the far right sources and hopefully process it into knowledge. A couple of weeks back they had some reasonable info on Venezuela, which didn’t tow the State Department / rich Venezuelan line that Maduro is a corrupt dictator, blah blah. Anything I do read gets filtered through my South American experience and my Marxist tendencies anyway, so I’m not looking for stuff I agree with 100%.

      On Syria, I think Al Jazeera is terrible.

      • Morrissey 18.1.1

        I’m not looking for stuff I agree with 100 per cent either. I like a great deal of what I see on Al Jazeera and on the BBC too. And I love to read the New York Times every bit as much as its greatest fan Jim Mora does. But we all need to realize just how politically compromised these outlets are. I agree with you on your assessment of Al Jazeera’s dismally biased coverage of Syria.

        • instauration

          Gave up on AJE, BBC and NYT half a decade ago.
          Now have many Eureka moments (like “why didn’t AP say that, {and credit to a real person} ?”) from;
          rt.com (TV too)
          antiwar.com (persistently Libertarian)
          presstv.ir (what IRAN really said)
          innercitypress.com (MRL is there – !)

          But we need the other mainstreams for balance and humour.

  19. big bruv 19

    Another day, another rouge poll is it?

    Those of you who have pitched your tent in camp Cunliffe might want to think about pulling up the pegs and looking for greener pastures. The man is simply not resonating with Kiwis, if you lot had any idea what you were doing you would ditch the man, put up some other smuck in an attempt to make sure you are not devastated at the election and then force some of your deadwood out of the house and hope like hell you can resurrect the party in time for the 2017 or 2020 election.

    From my point of view I hope you don’t do any of that. Keep Cunliffe, keep Mallard, Cosgrove, King, Goff, Dyson, Morony and co, if you do that then I can see it being at least three or four elections before you even get a sniff of power.

    • Skinny 19.1

      So tell us Big Bruv aka pencil dick is it now 16 Nat Rats that won’t be around after the upcoming election?
      And the 16th is not counting Collins.

      I am referring to the party light-weight Paul Foster-Bell, did he fail to get the Whangarei electorate candidacy after former ‘nose caught in the trough’ Phil Heatley resigns at the end of term.

      • Arfamo 19.1.1

        (Chuckles as tries to envisage what a rouge poll might look like.)

        • Populuxe1

          I have heard of a Khmer Rouge Pol Pot – whatever it is, I’m sure it’s a nice shade of pink.

      • big bruv 19.1.2

        That’s the hon Judith Collins to you, the next PM of New Zealand.

        When that happens (and it will) we will see a real right wing government, she will make you lot long for the days of John Key.

  20. RedBaronCV 20

    Glanced at the royal visit schedule the other day and went back to reread what I could find on it. Nothing on the govt website as an official programme[search gave me email scams instead].

    Now, I’m not in general very interested but the schedule for this tour seems very long on things like vineyard tours and yachting races [mixing only with the select few] and very short on the usual “meet as many people as you can from all walks of life, open a few bridges” stuff that they usually do.

    Does the palace know that this looks like a great big set up for photo ops for JKey while contact with the ordinary is kept to a bare invited minimum? I’d have though they would be more careful – after all historically, when revolutions start crowd sourcing then top titles tend to head the queue.

    And BTW I see Peter Jackson being stuffed in there for no real reason. Perhaps he should be fronting something else?

    • maybe they just want to check out jacksons’ moats..?

      ..moat-owners are a select club/lot..eh..?

      ..and they do so like to network..

      ..phillip ure..

  21. xtasy 22

    such a naive and ignorant country, no hope and future. fuck NZ NZ

    • Populuxe1 22.1

      Seriously, either direct your ire more precisely, or feel free at any time to stop taking our sickness benefit and fuck off back to Latin America – some of us would like to fix things and be constructive, or at least a little gratitude for the fact we still have a welfare system, fucked up beyond all recognition though it is.

      • xtasy 22.1.1

        There is nothing called a “sickness benefit” anymore, and it is called “job seeker allowance” or “jobseeker support” now, just for your info.

        I apologise for my generalised ire, but seeing, hearing and experiencing every day what crap goes down in NZ, I just happen to feel that way at times. I also have been put through the “wringer” by a clearly biased “designated doctor” who was “trained” (and indoctrinated) by Dr David Bratt, a fan of Professor Aylward and “work will set you free” ideology.

        I have also seen how a mentally ill flatmate was treated abysmally by mental health services here in Auckland, just being fed with endless medication and getting no proper treatment at all. I have seem how health services, Housing NZ, WINZ, ACC and other organisations treat their “customers” like shit!

        You have no idea what I have been through in your so “cherished” country over the last few years, and what treatment I suffered at the hands of WINZ mercenaries, same like many born and bred New Zealanders. While some do take a stand, most simply put up with too much BS and just walk away.

        I did not come back to NZ a fair few years back to live off a benefit, I had hope for ongoing, sound employment and the ability to work and save a bit of money, perhaps for an own home and so.

        But the back-stabbing by some “Kiwis” and new migrants (happy to please their “Kiwi” workmates), basically being bullying and the likes, and other unwanted and unexpected developments led to a disastrous worsening of my health, and set me on a course that I wish I would never have had to take. Employers were also not interested in a staff member with health issues.

        While fighting the crap that was dished out to me, I found out more, about how “rotten” many things in this country are, and how basically corrupt many state agencies and so are.

        Yes, I come from a different culture, where we speak, up and out, rather than walk away, and that is the little difference, dear Pop!

        As for Latin America, at least there is some cherished culture, although the US economic imperialism there is also highly destructive and corrupts the remnants of culture they have.

        I am stuck here, as I now do not even have a valid passport, and that is because I simply cannot pay the high costs of having it replaced. WINZ does not pay for that, nor would it pay for a one way ticket out. So while I learned so much about crap going on in your “cherished” nation, I dare to speak out and raise issues, which some others here do also, but which the wider population is either unwilling or incapable off, rather choosing to roll over and take more hits.

        So have a good night and weekend, I will try and choose my words more wisely in future. In the meantime you will have to live with the fact, that there are some people living in your country who do not share the “patriotism” the MSM and government of the day try to sell them.


      • Murray Olsen 22.1.2

        Yeah, how dare a foreigner complain, eh Pop? As I hear all the time in Australia: “If you don’t like it mate, fuck off back to your country.”

        xtasy: you’re not the only one that sees the problems, although you do seem to cop more than your fair share. I hope things get better for you, and for all of us. Let’s do what we can to make it happen.

        • Populuxe1

          Pretty much. I pay taxes to support a health and welfare system, and if you want to make comparisons with Australia the country is incredibly generous to those in need in terms of the resources we make available, and while I don’t expect a jingoistic self-pat on the back for taking the Tampa refugees (considering what Australia did to them, that was the least we could do) or giving Australians all the benefits New Zealanders are entitled to and getting shafted at the other end even if we are paying taxes, nor do I expect thanks, but the constant screed of invective from our ironically named friend really grates on my tits when there are people dropping dead in neighbouring Pacific Islands because they can’t get basics like dialysis which we take for granted here. The only reason some of us bother to try and change anything for the better at all is because we still believe in the basic worthiness of our society – but fuck it, let’s just give up and let the carcass rot.

  22. greywarbler 23

    Why would the fact that numbers are falling from 11,000 to 8,500 possible visitors to the Wild Food Festival on the SI West Coast mean they would think of wiping it?? That is a large number of visitors which they need to bring in money to the area.

    They need to get real smart people promoting the Coast, not just those who want champagne outcomes every time. NZ is in a depression, you organiser tossers. Find ways to get the money out of the numbers you do get, while at the same time giving them a really good time. Getting eight thousand people that have money to spend is an opportunity not a boohoo for the coast.

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    1 week ago
  • The anti-fluoride brigade won’t be erecting billboards about this study
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    1 week ago
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    1 week ago
  • Marvelly shows us how to be a feminist without feminism
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    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Out of the past – Tories to revive racist laws from the 16th century
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    1 week ago
  • 1000 of these now
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    SciBlogsBy Grant Jacobs
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    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: As predicted
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Let this never be forgot
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    2 weeks ago
  • Too Late To Change Capitalism’s Flightpath?
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    2 weeks ago
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    SciBlogsBy Helen Petousis Harris
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
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    2 weeks ago
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
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    2 weeks ago
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  • Climate Change: Ban private jets
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Climate Change: Untold Suffering
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • The left and violent misogyny
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    2 weeks ago
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    2 weeks ago
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    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    2 weeks ago
  • Back it up Luxon: endorsing the destructive past is not actually the way forward
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    exhALANtBy exhalantblog
    2 weeks ago
  • Good riddance
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago

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    17 hours ago
  • Week That Was: Supporting our schools
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    23 hours ago
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    5 days ago
  • Addressing miscarriages of justice
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    6 days ago
  • Week That Was: Historic action on climate change
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    2 weeks ago
  • Tax-free deployments for Kiwi troops
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    2 weeks ago
  • A balanced Zero Carbon Bill passed
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    2 weeks ago
  • Paramedics’ status to be recognised
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    2 weeks ago
  • Week That Was: 2,000 teachers in two years
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    3 weeks ago
  • Winning an election one conversation at a time
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    3 weeks ago
  • Closer cooperation with Korean horse racing industry
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    3 weeks ago
  • Otago to lead digital creativity
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    3 weeks ago
  • Young Otago students encouraged to take on forestry careers
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    3 weeks ago
  • PGF backing Dunedin’s waterfront ambitions
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    3 weeks ago
  • M. Bovis eradication progress welcomed
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    3 weeks ago
  • PGF boosts Otago’s engineering and manufacturing sector
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    3 weeks ago
  • Minister Peters discusses Pacific challenges and denuclearisation in Seoul
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    3 weeks ago
  • PGF supports high speed broadband for marae at Parihaka Pa
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    3 weeks ago

  • Reform of public service a step closer
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    15 hours ago
  • Donations scheme to relieve pressure on families
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    16 hours ago
  • Further support for Samoan measles outbreak
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    17 hours ago
  • Speech to the Child Poverty Action Group 2019 Summit
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    20 hours ago
  • Speech to the New Zealand Thoroughbred Racing Annual Conference
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    20 hours ago
  • Fairer rules for tenants and landlords
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Two decades of marine protection celebrated at Te Tapuwae o Rongokako in Tairawhiti
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    3 days ago
  • Food industry asked to step up fight against obesity
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Modern emergency care for Queenstown area
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    4 days ago
  • Contraception important for New Zealanders
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  • NZ medical staff and measles vaccines going to Samoa
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    4 days ago
  • Disability Action Plan 2019 – 2023
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    5 days ago
  • Joint Statement – Third Singapore-New Zealand Defence Ministers’ Meeting
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  • Sexual Violence Legislation Bill has its first reading
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  • Streamlined business invoicing a step closer
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  • More frontline biosecurity officers protecting NZ
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    5 days ago
  • NZ space economy worth $1.69 billion
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    5 days ago
  • New Chair for Royal Commission into Abuse
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    5 days ago
  • Better mental health facilities for Palmerston North
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  • More vaccines for meningococcal disease
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    5 days ago
  • Fisheries innovation projects supported
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    6 days ago
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  • Extension for Royal Commission into Mosque attacks
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    6 days ago
  • Terrorism and Trade on agenda as Foreign Minister visits the United States
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  • Hoiho get extra support alongside 168 community conservation groups backing nature
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  • New safety measures for modified pistols
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Minister of Defence to visit Singapore and Thailand
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    6 days ago
  • Future secured for Salisbury School
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    6 days ago
  • Resource management reform options released
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    6 days ago
  • Criminal Cases Review Commission established
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    6 days ago
  • Racing Industry destined to be on-track
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    7 days ago
  • New Zealand firefighter support to Queensland
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    7 days ago
  • Supporting all schools to succeed
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    7 days ago
  • Reform to support better outcomes for Māori learners and whānau
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    7 days ago
  • Infrastructure pipeline growing
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    7 days ago
  • Tighter firearms law to further improve safety
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