Open mike 08/10/2023

47 comments on “Open mike 08/10/2023 ”

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1. Tiger Mountain 1

   8 October 2023 at 6:26 am

   https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/7/palestinian-group-hamas-launches-surprise-attack-on-israel-what-to-know

   Apartheid Israel, an occupying force for 70 years, gruesomely penning Palestinians into tiny Gaza would be gone by lunchtime if the USA stopped supplying cash and weapons.
   US Imperialism, in blunt terms–both substantial cause of and potential solution to–the Palestinian situation.

   Arm chair generals and Governments everywhere are tut tutting about terrorism by Hamas–yet when Israeli snipers blow out teens knee caps for approaching a fence, poison water supply, detain and torture, the Euros and all the rest look away. The Israeli military state regularly stops humanitarian aid to Gaza by flotilla as local Kia Ora Gaza supporters like Marama Davidson and Mike Treen (Unite Union) found out.

   I don’t support the religious aspect to Hamas, or armed violence, but what do people expect will be the outcome with hundreds of UN Resolutions ignored, and Gaza bombed the shit out of every few months?

   There is a very nasty possible conclusion to this latest uprising aka asymmetric engagement, and I don’t want to use the term here–those capable in the international community need to step up immediately.
   • Bearded Git 1.1

     8 October 2023 at 8:12 am

     Agree Tiger.

     Nobody seems to complain about the illegal occupation of Palestinian land by the Israelis and the illegal settlements being built there, or about the giant concentration camp that is Gaza.

     Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has it right when he says (from The Guardian's live feed today):

     "Abbas also pointed to the “denial of the Palestinian people’s legitimate right to self-determination and the establishment of their independent state with East Jerusalem as its capital, the ongoing Israeli aggression against the Palestinian people, their land, and their sacred sites, and the continued terrorism of Israeli settlers,”

     “President Abbas stated that ending the Israeli occupation of Palestinian land with East Jerusalem as its capital, recognizing the Palestinian people’s right to independence and sovereignty, and granting full UN membership would ensure security, stability, and peace in the region,

     Pisses me off to see Biden saying "The United States stands with Israel" when he has done bugger all to rectify the above situation.
   • Sanctuary 1.2

     8 October 2023 at 8:57 am

     The scenes of celebratory barbarism as a catharsis against civilians coming from Hamas's successful raid into Southern Israel are sickening.

     But you know, if you torment human beings by locking them in a cage like they are wild animals, and then beat them savagely with bombs and missiles, and strip them of all hope and dignity, and you do it for decades, then if they ever get out of the cage you have to expect the dehumanized and savage wild animals you've created will show their tormentor no mercy.
     • Beverly 1.2.1

       8 October 2023 at 10:26 am

       Might we not use the same argument to explain why Israel is tormenting the people of Gaza – the result of their treatment in world War 2?
       • Sanctuary 1.2.1.1

         8 October 2023 at 10:35 am

         The state of Israel was created as a consequence of the holocaust. Unfortunately for the Zionists, there were people living there already on whom they visited a massive injustice by expelling them from their homes. The Arabs were also lied to by the British who then bailed out as fast as they could.

         The abject failure over eight decades to come to terms with the injustices perpetrated by the circumstances leading to creation of Israel are the cause of the huge turmoil in the middle east today.
         • AB 1.2.1.1.1

           8 October 2023 at 10:50 am

           The most extreme case of the central problem of all settler colonial societies.
2. bwaghorn 2

   8 October 2023 at 6:30 am

   “I am a child of Lake Alice. I have been through all the institutions. We as kids were abused everywhere we went so we couldn’t respect authority, we couldn't trust authority, so that is more or less why we formed – to protect ourselves because we had no one else to help us.”

   https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/133064688/election-2023-what-young-mum-gang-member-and-cyclone-victim-think-of-this-election

   Maybe someone should show national that sentence on a driver of gang growth, I bet it’s still happening today
   • Barfly 2.1

     8 October 2023 at 7:09 am

     This is just off memory – The chap in Dunedin who did long term studies on people finding that the biggest driver of criminality, dysfunction and poor adult outcomes was severe poverty in childhood – this seems to be ringing the same bell to me.
   • SapphireGem 2.2

     8 October 2023 at 10:57 am

     They wouldn't care. I have worked for an organisation that supported survivors through the Royal Commission of Inquiry process. People's experiences were absolutely harrowing and the effects of the abuse had huge impacts on their lives, as you would expect.

     Here is an excerpt from the Royal Commission of Inquiry's report "Stolen Lives, Marked Souls – The inquiry into the Order of the Brothers of St John of God at Marylands School and Hebron Trust" – among other things, this report details how the abuse affected survivors' lives. https://www.abuseincare.org.nz/our-progress/reports/stolen-lives-marked-souls/

     "187. The Royal Commission finds in relation to the impacts of abuse and neglect:

     a. All survivors of abuse and neglect from Marylands, the Hebron Trust and St Joseph’s Orphanage who the Inquiry has heard from, have experienced significant and life-long impacts to many facets of who they are, their relationships, their potential and the life they lead. These impacts include:

     › physical injury, health and illness

     › devastating mental health impacts, including self-harm and suicidality

     › criminal offending and addiction including substance abuse

     › struggles with sexual and gender identity

     › loss of faith and spirituality

     › financial hardship and homelessness

     › lack of education, leading to further financial hardship and employment insecurity

     › inability to trust and difficulties in relationships with children, partners and whānau."
3. Ad 3

   8 October 2023 at 7:19 am

   This Hamas 3000+ rocket attack and multi-town invasion looks like Iran trying to shank the upcoming Israel-Saudi Arabia peace deal.

   It will do the reverse.
   • Sanctuary 3.1

     8 October 2023 at 10:26 am

     Middle Eastern politics makes you want to scrub yourself clean in the shower with a stello pad after just thinking about it.

     The Israelis, with the connivance of everyone, thought they could normalise relations with Saudi by simply locking the Palestinians in a permanent cage and then throwing away the key. The plan was to assassinate and destabilize any viable civil society in Gaza, paint the place as hopelessly in the thrall of barbaric terrorists and leave the Palestinians to rot forgotten in their ghetto while everyone else got on with plotting with their new buddies against Iran.

     Iran wants to scupper Saudi Arabia at every turn because of some religious difference that is even dumber than Europe fighting the thirty years war over transubstantiation, and Iran hates the west because of punitive sanctions and the way they've been shit on at every turn by the USA since the coup that put the Shah into power. None the less, Israel left Hamas and Hizbollah alone because it struck a deal with Putin to not interfere in Syria as long as Russia used its influence to stop Iran using Hamas to wreck its deal with Saudi.

     Except mad dog Putin invaded the Ukraine, and now he needs Iran and it's ammunition and drone factories more than Iran thinks it need fear him and the equally mad Mullahs have realized they can't rely on busted-flush Russia for any damn thing by way of security guarantees so Iran has decided to use Hamas to launch an attack on Israel to end any hope of a deal between Israel and Saudi Arabia.

     Now for the Palestinians the status quo was anyways tantamount to their genocide. Any option was better than the one looming. And the Palestinians have just shown they won't be forgotten and walling them up in Gaza and letting them rot isn't a viable plan, because if they can break into Israel once to wreak indiscriminate slaughter then they can do it again.

     So the Palestinians have inflicted a mini 9/11 on Israel. They've demonstrated they're not going to give up and quietly die. Israel now has to change course. It can try to occupy the Gaza strip but last time it tried that the IDF discovered Gaza is an urban fortress capable of inflicting heavy losses on them. It can use its virtual immunity from consequences to inflict an aerial and artillery genocide on Gaza every bit the equivalent of the savagery inflicted on the Poles in the Warsaw uprising, or it will have to come up with a workable peace plan.

     Unfortunately, lack of consequence means genocide will be the likely path Israel will go down.

     They'll end up doing a Bele and Lokai and nuking each other before the century is out.
     • SPC 3.1.1

       8 October 2023 at 4:27 pm

       The best future for Gaza is UN occupation and development to nation state hood (the Hamas PA relationship is broken and the WB is not a goer with the current regime in Israel).

       If Saudi Arabia gave that its backing, a deal whereby 1948 refugees could (if they want) take up citizenship (acquire passports) and be granted residency in Arab league nations or migrate to other places (and be given compensation for 1948 property loss).

       Others could choose to remain refugees (these restored to some fit state (eg Lebanon/Syria) and await a West Bank resolution.
       • SPC 3.1.1.1

         8 October 2023 at 4:47 pm

         Others could choose to remain refugees (their camps restored to some fit state (eg Lebanon/Syria) and await a West Bank resolution.
   • SPC 3.2

     8 October 2023 at 4:20 pm

     Sort of, Hamas is seeking alliances against the deal and Iran is one party.

     It will complicate the deal being finalised.
4. Bearded Git 4

   8 October 2023 at 8:36 am

   The possibility of a second election is canvassed here if the Nats and ACT can't form a government.

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2023-national-warns-very-real-possibility-of-no-deal-with-nz-first-sending-voters-back-to-the-polls/SEDJLYGOEVHV5DABMIJQZV3JQ4/
   • Ngungukai 4.1

     8 October 2023 at 8:45 am

     Luxon getting nervous pulling out all the tricks from the old Crosby Textor Handbook.
   • PsyclingLeft.Always 4.2

     8 October 2023 at 8:48 am

     "Even" with the Nats calling up their ring-in, slimy sir Key..they are looking less and less so sure of themselves.

     Also their coalition of chaos infighting also proceeds ..apace.

     We on the Left must have Solidarity. And..I think we will prevail !
     • Ngungukai 4.2.1

       8 October 2023 at 9:07 am

       Agree +100% bringing in Honest John at the last minute may have done National more harm than good IMHO.

       Also I can not see Luxon forming a Government with a NACT First combination, if Winston and NZF can get enough votes say 8-9% we may see a National/NZF Coalition however National and Luxon would have to swallow a number of dead rats.
       • Tony Veitch 4.2.1.1

         8 October 2023 at 9:26 am

         Anecdotal – yes, and hardly scientific – but the people I meet driving an uber two nights a week are

         – solidly Green or TPM voters, lesser number favouring Labour

         – quite disparaging of Luxon and think Act is a bit of a joke

         – hardly ever mention Winston, and usually not in a complimentary way.

         I think we're (the left) going to be in for a very pleasant surprise on Election night!
     • SapphireGem 4.2.2

       8 October 2023 at 10:58 am

       Totally agreed PLA – National is sounding increasingly uncertain, chaotic, and desperate
     • Jester 4.2.3

       8 October 2023 at 11:10 pm

       Looks like bringing out the old politicians is par for the course in this election campaign. Labour have rolled out Helen.

       Election 2023: Helen Clark releases video calling for people to vote Labour | Newshub
       • Drowsy M. Kram 4.2.3.1

         9 October 2023 at 1:05 am

         Hi J – great vid, but why no mention of "limbo land" or "lots of moving parts"?
   • PsyclingLeft.Always 4.3

     8 October 2023 at 9:27 am

     Quite telling that "Minister of Flap" Chris Bishflap Bishop is winding up the scare siren. Oooer… second election !

     Of course its only scary for the Nats. Gotta love it : )
   • Mike the Lefty 4.4

     8 October 2023 at 10:29 am

     National are beginning to show nervous jitters. Their advertising is tending towards warning voters that you have to party vote National to avoid eight weeks of confusion whilst a coalition government is formed.

     They are perhaps being honest for the first time in (kind of) admitting that it will be difficult to form a government with their pals ACT and NZ First not even wanting to be in the same room together, let alone actually co-operating.

     Labour needs to seize on this to show that there will be no such problems if you vote centre-left, WE get along well enough to lead the country, the rabble on the right don't so why would you vote for them?

     The National party ad was on Facebook and I am unable to provide a link at this time, sorry.

     If someone else could, thanks.
     • Ngungukai 4.4.1

       8 October 2023 at 10:32 am

       Labour/Green/TPM looking solid coming up to next Saturday, fear mongering by National is not going down well with voters, evidently the Economy is going well according to all the statistics.
       • Herodotus 4.4.1.1

         8 October 2023 at 2:12 pm

         The economy is going well !! Will perhaps like Hipkins you need to get out and leave your protected bubble !! Wages below inflation for many interest rates killing us and the Labour Party gives each family $5/week to butter things over. Tax creep as we progress thru the tax bracket creep takes more from an individuals income, govt gives a token BUT takes more🤫
         Our growth is primarily due to immigration and cleanups from the weather. Great base to build an economy on 🤬
         • Ngungukai 4.4.1.1.1

           8 October 2023 at 2:40 pm

           Agree Herodotus most of what you are saying is correct, wages are poor here in NZ vs the Cost of Living and Housing, however the Supermarket Owners and the Corporates are doing extremely well, likewise the AU Banks are making record profits however interest rates are not dropping, so I agree we are being screwed. Yes Tax Brackets need to be changed with the first $20k being Tax Free. Immigration needs to be knocked on the head until we look after our own people first, so voting NZF and Uncle Winnie is probably your best bet, however they seem to forget all these things once in Government. Labour is pro Chinese Immigration and wouldn't budge on that in the 2017 Coalition Government. National are also very pro Chinese Investment in NZ Housing & Infrastructure.
         • Drowsy M. Kram 4.4.1.1.2

           8 October 2023 at 2:47 pm

           If NAct + NZF do get over the line, then at least Willis will have a chaotic 'out' for her hollow promise to resign as finance minister.

           The Hollow, the Shallow and the Crusty. F**k me, what a shambolic prospect
         • SPC 4.4.1.1.3

           8 October 2023 at 4:56 pm

           Anyone concerned about wage levels and who votes NACT is intellectually challenged.

           MW. ACT wants no MW increaaes for 3 years, National wants minimal ones. Labour wants it lifted to the Living Wage level – $1 an hour or more each year ($40 a week extra).

           Fair Pay Agreement Industry Awards – as per Oz. NACT would get rid of it. Labour's development will result in wage improvements between the MW-LW and the median wage and maybe above. It will be the only way to guarantee wages go up as fast as rents/inflation.

           Public Sector, Labour's record in raising the pay of teachers, nurses and doctors is far superior to that of National.
           • Herodotus 4.4.1.1.3.1

             8 October 2023 at 5:49 pm

             So where is the proof that voting Labour is any different ?? Many of us have experience nil to inferior pay increases well below inflation.

             Don't forget that the pay increases/min wage etc are on the back of, for most unknown inflation rates, tax creep and costs that are lost in CIP calculations as they are excluded. So if the govt had handled and reacted to minimise the rising inflation, perhaps the level of pay increase recently fought over would not have to be as high to lessen the impact on Inflation ? So your justification to support labours rising pay levels is questionable at the least, but don't let that get in the way

             Teachers fought hard for what they have achieved. Pity that the agreement was not backdated as in real terms their wage has gone backwards. Previous agreement covered July 2019- June 2022. Current agreement covers July 23- July 25.

             https://www.education.govt.nz/assets/Documents/School/Collective-Employment-Agreements/Primary-Teachers-Collective-Agreement/Primary-Teachers-Collective-Agreement-2019-2022.pdf

             https://www.education.govt.nz/school/people-and-employment/employment-agreements/collective-agreements/changes-to-primary-teachers-collective-agreement-2023/
             • SPC …

               8 October 2023 at 6:05 pm

               The fact that you made a reply without reference to the known facts about MW and LW relativity, or the FPA Industry Awards, or any comparison of increases under Labour compared to National (as per nurses and teachers 2008-2017) says it all.

               And you blame the government for inflation (and divert into bracket creep with taxation) – its worldwide mate with the add on here of the flood events on food prices, and the company that filed to get its gib production sorted (housing costs 2022).

               PS Inflation will be 4% by the end of the year and its forecast to be 3% at the end of next year.
               • pat …

                 8 October 2023 at 7:38 pm

                 "PS Inflation will be 4% by the end of the year and its forecast to be 3% at the end of next year."

                 Thats a confident and specific statement….you must have made a fortune with such forecasting ability
                 • SPC …

                   8 October 2023 at 8:49 pm

                   If you were informed you would know its the forecast of the RB.

                   The former is more likely to be accurate than the latter (more uncertain as per election etc)
                   • pat …

                     9 October 2023 at 6:36 am

                     If I were really informed I would know that those are not the RBNZ projections from the RBNZ household expectations survey….assuming they meant anything anyway.
   • Muttonbird 4.5

     8 October 2023 at 10:35 am

     'I'll call Winston. I won't call Winston.' Make up your mind.

     This is what happens when you invite John Key to stick his oar in. Key does what's good for Key, no one else.

     Absolute chaos.
     • Ngungukai 4.5.1

       8 October 2023 at 10:51 am

       National are looking lost, no clear policy apart from selling $2.0 million homes to the Saudi's.
5. PsyclingLeft.Always 5

   8 October 2023 at 9:13 am

   This is not Politics…(well maybe somewhat)..more a why are "we" still racing to Planet burn……and why cant we go another way?

   Ok….most of us (Deniers excepted) know our Planet is heating …ever more dangerously. This combined with El Nino type events. of course has cumulative effect. So Niwa recently gives warning…In ODT Rural Life..which I do read .

   As the El Nino weather phenomenon takes hold across New Zealand, Otago farmers are being urged to prepare for potential pasture and water supply problems caused by dry spells.

   A recent long-term Niwa forecast stated there was a 100% chance of El Nino continuing during October through to December, and the chance of it persisting through summer was forecast to be more than 95%.

   https://www.odt.co.nz/rural-life/rural-life-other/plan-now-el-nino-council-urges-farmers

   My why cant we ?……was also in the ODT..randomly, in Life and Style. Connection ? I seen the Regenerative photo. And such a great article by Sean Connelly .

   It is past time farming stepped into its future

   The report also highlighted how our agricultural sector is also dependent on our natural capital — the rivers, lakes, soils, biodiversity, atmosphere and climate. It emphasised that continuing down the path of intensive agriculture would increasingly put both our economic and environmental wellbeing under threat.

   agriculture has intensified, fertiliser use has intensified, irrigation has intensified, and on the whole, environmental indicators have worsened. Synthetic nitrogen use has risen from just over 50,000 tonnes in 1990 to more than 450,000 tonnes by 2020, largely driven by the dairy boom. The ability of our land and water to cope with that injection of nutrients has been stretched beyond limits. Direct greenhouse gas emissions from synthetic nitrogen fertilisers have increased more than 600% since 1990.

   https://www.odt.co.nz/lifestyle/magazine/growing-good-recognises-some-limits

   IMO he sums the case for change so well. I struggle to understand anyone that wouldnt?
   • Ngungukai 5.1

     8 October 2023 at 10:52 am

     Pukekohe Vegetable Growers gearing up for a big drought has to happen soon especially with all the rain we have had over the past 2 years, it is the law of averages.
6. Anne 6

   8 October 2023 at 10:40 am

   From the side-bar, Paul Buchanan's latest offering is a must read. "Bully Pulpits and the Politics of Nastiness", is a summary of the Trump style and how the parties of the Right in NZ are consciously emulating him. The following excerpt imo is worthy of repeat in toto:

   … after four years of his presidency and the sequels to it, I realise that his long moment in public life has served as an invitation to and license for others around the world to follow his approach to political and social discourse. The core of this approach is to appeal to the lowest common denominator in the basest of terms, seeking to appeal to the darkest of instincts and deepest ignorance extant in a given political community. This is the politics of nastiness, and the nasty has reached NZ.

   It is well known that National has been for some time looking to US rightwing spin doctors for campaign guidance and narratives (crime! waste! taxes!), but now Winston First and ACT’s David Seymour have decided to go full US conspiracy theory (Winston: globalists! mandates!) and pseudo-libertarian racist (David: free speech! bureaucrats! Treaty separatists!). The tone of politics in NZ has gotten cruder (see: Chris Bishop, Judith Collins) and more personal (e.g. treatment of Kiri Allen). The corporate media has clearly decided to go full Murdoch in approach (with a few exceptions duly noted) by stirring partisan and racial division and polemics, focusing on personal foibles and conflicts rather than platforms/proposals and going for “gotcha” moments rather than offering dispassion analyses of the policy platforms of the respective parties.
   • Ngungukai 6.1

     8 October 2023 at 10:54 am

     Like +100% good analysis
   • Patricia Bremner 6.2

     8 October 2023 at 1:58 pm

     Thanks Anne 100%
7. Peter 7

   8 October 2023 at 10:52 am

   Politics still goes on in Britain. While we look forward to crazy possibilities post-election their bizarre environment simply continues.

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UxDJS-dWSk
   • Anne 7.1

     8 October 2023 at 11:15 am

     Proves Buchanan's point. 🙂
8. observer 8

   8 October 2023 at 12:34 pm

   Why does the Standard continue to give a platform for right-wing propaganda? The Point of Order website (on the sidebar, every day) is a constant barrage of right-wing talking points, and not even interesting ones.

   Yes, I know, it's not my blog, you can publish whatever you want, and nobody's stopping you but the question remains … why?

   I'd love to know.
   • gsays 8.1

     8 October 2023 at 4:20 pm

     'If you want to defeat your enemy, whistle their tune'.
   • Bearded Git 8.2

     8 October 2023 at 9:11 pm

     I posted something similar last week Obs.

     What is worse Points of Order pretends to be balanced….but ends up always supporting the Right/slagging off the Left.
9. Obtrectator 9

   9 October 2023 at 12:02 am

   I wonder how many NZ First voters are aware of what they might be getting into? The party appears to have undergone a significant shape-shift lately, and it doesn't seem to be all Winston's doing:

   https://www.thepost.co.nz/a/politics/350084986/awakening-how-freedom-movement-found-its-man-winston-peters

   And here’s what the Graun has to say about next Saturday:

   https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/08/tired-broke-and-eager-for-change-new-zealand-expected-to-shift-right-at-coming-election

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