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Open mike 08/11/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 8th, 2021 - 242 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

242 comments on “Open mike 08/11/2021 ”

  1. Jenny how to get there 1

    Setting an example




    Mandates choice, leadership, are currently hot button topics:

    • The Labour government are under pressure from employers to legislate to make make mandatory vaccination against Covid-19 a condition of employement at the discretion of the employer or management of a company or workplace.
    • The Labour government are already mandating teachers and health care workers and border workers to be vacinated.
    • Antivaxxers and even civil libertarians are protesting about the right to bodily integrity and choice.

    My question:
    Should the Labour Party. which is the governing party of this country, already responsible for setting mandates for others, consider setting an example of leadership for themselvs, by mandating that requirement for new membership of the Labour Party is to be vaccinated?

    And if not, why not?


    • vto 1.1

      That is completely silly.

      How is it similar to places where people congregate for employment and the like?

      Discuss yourself

      • Jenny how to get there 1.1.1

        …….Should the Labour Party. which is the governing party of this country, already responsible for setting mandates for others, consider setting an example of leadership for themselvs, by mandating that requirement for new membership of the Labour Party is to be vaccinated?

        And if not, why not?



        • vto1.1

          8 November 2021 at 8:33 am

          That is completely silly.

          How is it similar to places where people congregate for employment and the like? ….

        Very similar, in that any mass gathering is an opportunity to spread the virus.

        All leading civil organisations have a chance to set an example. The governing Party more than most.

        The Green Party, the Labour Party. Maybe even the National and ACT parties, that all have claims to leadership in our society, could also show some in their organisations.

        Leading civil society groups that have a leadership role can also that are in a position to set an example, Service clubs like the Lions, Rotary, etc. should do so.

        Some businesses are already doing it.

        We are all told that we all have a role to play, in addressing climate change and should.

        Same with Covid.

    • Stuart Munro 1.2

      Setting an example of responsibility is smart. Leave the low moral ground to the Trumpetistas – but be careful to carve out a protected space for genuine medical exceptions and well-behaved conscientious dissenters.

    • Puckish Rogue 1.3

      I would like to know why some government workers are mandated to be vaccinated but those on government benefits are not

      No jab no benefit

      • KJT 1.3.1

        For the simple reason that benefits acknowledge that everyone has a right to life. At a minimum, enough to eat!

        Even right wingers! Even though to many of them, want to starve people into taking low paid jobs.

        Same as mandating vaccines where you have to associate with other people, such as workplaces, acknowledges the right that people have, to expect safety from follow workers and customers, for themselves and their families.

        • Puckish Rogue

          But if someone loses their job they go on a benefit and then they're in greater danger of catching covid so surely mandating beneficiaries to get the jab will keep more people safe

          Or are beneficiaries not as important as other people….

          • fender

            How does losing ones job make someone more likely to catch covid?

          • KJT

            How to totally mis-comprehend the point.

            • Puckish Rogue

              'For the simple reason that benefits acknowledge that everyone has a right to life'

              But beneficiaries don't have to get the jab against covid and if you get covid you might die so shouldn't beneficiaries do their bit for NZ by getting jabbed?

              Is it too much to ask beneficiaries to jabbed?

          • left for dead

            No-jab no super,their fixed it.sarc !!

            • Puckish Rogue

              Sure why not

            • alwyn

              Well, you don't get super if you are dead.

              And our kind Aunt Jacinda and Uncle Grant are going to give everyone a present for Christmas that has a better chance of killing you if you haven't been vaccinated.

              Jacinda and Grant are going to give everyone a good chance of getting Covid 19 for Christmas.

              Remember the good old days when they said that were making all their Covid 19 decisions based on the advice from the medical experts? Those were the days. Now they are letting the vaccine out to play over summer.

              I wonder if they have suddenly got religion and they have become members of Tamaki's Church and believe the Christ child will save us?

              • KJT

                Maybe we should withdraw all state support from all the media, businessess, assorted right wing mouthpieces, and the deliberatly malicious, or ignorant, who sabotaged New Zealands Covid response, with the repeated calls to "open up', "let the tourists in", "blocking our freedom", "Nazi/Communist State" encouraging people to ignore sensible rules.

                The vioices of loud entitled "children", mostly on the right wing side of politics, have drowned out everyone else. "Children" who appear to think that attacking the Government is more important than the people who will suffer in the coming carnage. Carnage that they will have caused.

                • Gypsy

                  "Maybe we should withdraw all state support from all the media, "

                  That 'state support' came with significant strings attached. The media should never have accepted the conditions, and government should never have imposed them.

                  As far as withdrawing state support for business, I'm with you. But I generally find state support follows state intervention. The state intervenes, then has to pick up the tab (directly or indirectly) for the increased costs of doing business.

              • Pete

                Jacinda and Grant are going to give everyone a good chance of getting Covid 19 for Christmas:

                By getting as many as possible to not get vaccinated,

                By encouraging people to never wear masks,

                By suggesting everyone to not sanitise hands on being out and about,

                By urging people to ignore flu like symptoms and not get covid tested.

                By persuading anyone with flu like symptoms to mix with as many people as they can in as many environments as possible.

                By praying to some God because God will make sure that that God's ultimate plan comes about.

              • Patricia BremnerI guess you are closer to the action.

                Alwyn are you saying Grant and Jacinda are not listening to the Director of Health and are deliberately spreading covid?

                "Now they are letting the vaccine out to play" Did you mean covid or delta?

                • alwyn

                  Another boo-boo on my part. I meant the virus, not the vaccine.

                  Of course I don't mean that they are deliberately spreading the virus. Nobody, short of people like Osama bin Laden would do such a thing. Neither of course would any of the National Party MPs but it doesn't stop nutters on this site claiming they would.

                  We also had Robertson and Hipkins claiming that about National of course. They are lifetime Labour apparatchiks though so one shouldn’t be surprised.

                  Are they listening to what Bloomfield is saying? I have no idea. I am not privy to what he says in private but he does seem to have become a bit politicized. On the other hand the formerly quoted experts like Baker Skegg and the Iwi Leader's Forum seem to disagree with the Government.

                  For what it is worth, and I am no expert, I think opening up is the right thing. Believing that we could somehow cut ourselves off from the world was totally nuts.

                  • Patricia Bremner

                    Then why do you say such things? People are going to die, are dying. It is real and not really to be joked about. Opening up too soon is dangerous. It was not "nuts" to protect us 'till we were vaccinated. You are better than that Alwyn. Don't say things which could be painful later. None is safe 'till we all are. I did not approve of Grant saying what he did. It was politics instead of cooperation. Megan Woods did much better cooperating.

                    • alwyn

                      " It was not "nuts" to protect us 'till we were vaccinated"

                      And you will note I never said it was. Last year it was the best thing we could do. You will note of course that every political party in New Zealand agreed.

                      This year, when we vaccines existed, and we had time we should have got around to getting over the shutdown mentality. Hipkins did the country no favours by claiming we would be at the front of the line, or head of the queue, or whatever was his stupid rhetoric. We should have ordered vaccines earlier, and got them out into the community faster. We should have also spent the time providing better hospital facilities and more ICU equipment and trained people. We sat round and said how wonderful we are. Well we weren't.

                      We are apparently going to open up in Auckland on 29 November. What do you want to bet that the Government will boast that we were faster than National would have been, with their date of 01 December? Do they really care about anything except trying to gain political points?

      • fender 1.3.2

        What a sick thing to say, no wonder you have a Judith fetish. Makes one question your suitability for the corrections role.

        • Puckish Rogue

          ' Makes one question your suitability for the corrections role.'

          Comments like the above always make me smile laugh

          • Stuart Munro

            "Stone walls do not a prison make, nor iron bars a cage, but the combination of stone walls, the political parasite, and the moral instructor is no garden of sweets."
            Ambrose Bierce The Devils Dictionary.

      • McFlock 1.3.3

        Because nobody is entitled to work for the government, but everyone is entitled to enough funds to survive.

        • Puckish Rogue

          The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.

          If they don't get the jab they, me or you may not survive this either so if they don't, willingly, get the jab then other…measures need to be taken.

          After all we are a team of 5 million.

          • McFlock

            Well, I guess we'll see what the odds are when the "hesitants" have grudgingly joined the reasonable in getting their dot, or whatever the current term is.

            Besides, most beneficiaries I know aren't able to afford to go out all that often, and for most interesting stuff they'd need to be vaccinated anyway.

            The people I'm worried about will be the fools who look for ways around vax passports and can afford to circulate with folks regularly.

          • Foreign waka

            5 million include the beneficiaries. Besides, the sentence " the needs of many outweigh the few" is a military term and does not sit very well with me because of the reasoning below.

            "Something is wrong when we start calculating based on the lesser loss rather than on what is right. If the needs of the few – or the one- are ignored, then the needs of the many are not worth the paper they are written on. The same logic of the needs of the many was behind Hitler's campaign against Jews, gypsies, mentally disabled and handicapped. One could say they were exterminated for a greater good; Stalin exterminated political opponents "for the good of the State (the many)"."


            • McFlock

              Well, the nazis and stalin had significant ethical problems beyond a strict interpretation of utilitarianism.

              To me, the conflict between fringe examples of welfare/happiness/"good" maximisation (e.g. the sherriff killing a prisoner to placate a mob) and categorical imperatives (especially negatives such as "don't kill prisoners without a trial.") is a lot like the conflict between rational knowledge and instinctive knowledge, math vs feels. Even if the sums say X, if experience gives you a feeling of Y then it's a good idea to recheck the sums and recheck your feels.

              Both are necessary, but the real art is in figuring which takes precedence over the other when they come into conflict.

              And if x% of beneficiaries aren't going to screw the pooch much more than if they were all in line, why worry about initiating that conflict, anyway.

        • Jenny how to get there


      • Tiger Mountain 1.3.4

        Another day, another “Bennie Bash” from a tory commenter.

        Now, if the vulnerable on benefits–including National super recipients as well as job seekers and sickness and disabled (yes benefits are all collapsed in Jobseeker), were paid beyond subsistence level and got free Wifi and dental etc. then maybe–maybe–they could be leaned on.

        The fact is beneficiaries and their children are already discriminated against by virtue of being excluded from Working For Families, and having to deal with the sadistic WINZ/MSD.

      • Gabby 1.3.5

        Maybe they are, depending on what they’re doing.

      • weka 1.3.6

        I would like to know why some government workers are mandated to be vaccinated but those on government benefits are not

        No jab no benefit

        Why? If you're going to force beneficiaries, why not force everyone?

      • Jenny how to get there 1.3.7

        Puckish Rogue

        8 November 2021 at 9:24 am


        No jab no benefit

        That's right bash the bennies.

        The right wing default fall back position for all society's problems.

        Despite what the Right continually maintain, ad nauseum – Life on a benefit is not a volutuntary lifestyle choice.

        The anti vaxxers are saying it is all about choice.

        I agree. If you don't want to get vaccinated and you are a teacher, or border worker, or frontline health worker, or aged carer, you have a choice. Get another job.

        Benificiaries don't have that choice. They are on a benefit because they have no other means of support.

        So no.

    • Descendant Of Smith 2.1

      That has always been part of pandemic planning. Was twelve years ago when Civil Defence and DHB's did a big pandemic planning exercise. It isn't really news or surprising.

      Some things just need to be thought about in emergency situations that might not normally be palatable eg shooting roaming dogs that the well-meaning owners let off in a major earthquake who then form packs – Jo's little Corgi turned into a menace.

      • Jenny how to get there 2.1.1

        Descendant Of Smith

        8 November 2021 at 8:55 am

        That has always been part of pandemic planning……

        And are they planning to dig mass graves as well?

        How many containers are being ordered?

        How many frozen bodies can they get into a container?

        Are they stacked like cordwood?

        How long will they stay there?

        Then what?

        How do they get them out again?

        How are they finally disposed?

        Mass burial?


        What about the workers engaged in doing this gory task?

        What risk are they at?

        Any thoughts on their welfare?

        Who cares for their phyical and mental long term health and well being?

        Has there been any planning for that, or will they just be hired from the local labour hire company and then forgotten about?

        Then what do they do with the leased/hired containers after bodies have been stored in them?

        Do they go back to storing perishable goods for the supermarkets?

        Is this all part of the pandemic planning as well?

        You say that this has all been planned for. You are right. This wasn’t forced on us, we chose to lift the L4 Lockdown in Auckland against the advice of the health professionals, for the good of the economy.

        So just how many needless deaths are considered "palatable" as a trade off to protect the economy?

        Maybe instead of dealing with an excess of dead bodies, and an overloaded health system, (at all levels), we would have been better off sticking with our world beating Elimination Strategy.

        Sign the petition get the government to recommit to Elimination.

        NZ Government: Recommit to elimination of COVID-19


        • Descendant Of Smith

          Why are you asking me?


          Here's the report. It should answer all your questions.

          You should be asking businesses what note they took of the planning done? What plans did they put in place, what assessment they did of supply chain risk, what money they put aside, what preparation they did in adjusting their workplaces, what lessons they took from SARS – in fact did any of these highly paid CEO's, Chamber of Commerces, astute business people actually do anything in preparation for the inevitability that a pandemic happened?

          I do also think that DHB's should have been upping their ICU beds, increasing mental health services, etc over this time. I also think tax rates on high incomes should have been lifted to help pay for this – and for NZS.

          The lack of business preparation to me has been quite startling – especially from those who I know were directly involved in the planning exercise.

          We are lucky to have a vaccine in such short time (think if we didn't) but I wouldn't have opened borders when we did for holiday travel and I wouldn't open up Auckland yet. I'm not calling for either to happen so it isn't really that useful to ask me any of the above questions.

      • McFlock 2.1.2

        Exercise Cruickshank.

        At University of Otago at the time. We had two students as "cases" on the plane – managed to track them down and "isolate" them and all their close contacts within two hours I think, mostly thanks to the cohort nature of freshers lol.

        • alwyn

          Nah. The students were all narks.

          You probably offered a free beer to the one who exposed them. Otago University students would do anything for a bottle of that dreadful Speights wouldn't they?

          • McFlock

            God no. That would be the second years. 3/4 of freshers at the time lived in a residential college and generally turned up to class according to their assigned schedule. The fools.

          • georgecom

            as well as the beer, a supply of cardboard to plug the holes in the flat walls/windows and an old couch to burn

    • GreenBus 2.2

      That's an eye opener thanks Matiri. There seems to be a world wide blackout of Covid news. To tell it like it really is. If there is more real Covid bad news it will educate some of those who think this is a conspiracy and help change some AV attitudes?

    • alwyn 2.3

      They were doing that more than 18 months ago. One of my neighbours works for a company that customises containers and he said at the time that they were doing that during the first lockdown.

      It was considered to be essential work and the people involved were not subject to the lockdown. Why is anyone surprised?

    • Treetop 2.4

      Being prepared with refrigeration, body bags and trays is essential when experiencing a pandemic.

      Having a will is also essential. Dealing with ACC when the deceased person does not have an executor the case cannot be resolved as ACC will not recieve information to prove they have been misled or give the next of kin information. Sepuloni's office is going to hear from me this month on this matter. My timing is terrible, but were I to become incapacitated or worse nothing will get done about the DHB, ACC, the Coroner's Office and HDC. These systems work in silos and need restructuring.

      It is a serious matter when a person goes in for routine surgery, ends up having 3 operations and is dead a week after being admitted. The 3rd surgery was to repair a treatment injury and the person died a few hours later.

      • Patricia Bremner 2.4.1

        So sad for you and their family Treetop. May I ask which DHB? Our DHB is the slowest to get vaccines out. Lakes.

        • Treetop

          I cannot disclose the DHB. The saddest part is that approx 700 pages from the DHB generated in a week and the obvious has not been corrected by the DHB to ACC. The Privacy Commissioner cannot assist me as they do not assist correction of information when the person is dead.

          Put bluntly a previous partner was tortured in their last week and I will not let it rest until the matter is reviewed by a respiratory and a vascular surgeon who are independent of the DHB. The general surgeon the HDC engaged, his findings differ to the coroner's office and the coroner's office never saw the ACC injury form or the other relevant medical information.

          When it gets a bit much I leave it and come back to it. The dead have rights.

          • Patricia Bremner

            Treetop, in our case we wrote to the CEO through an Advocate (See the bottom of any hospital letter). Clearly list your grievance and what you want fixed and why. Then make an appointment with the Advocate. (no cost) Good wishes.

            • Treetop

              Which advocate?

              Once a file is closed the Solicitor General can open it up, but probably a coronial inquest is required and will take 5 years.

              A person's privacy is important as a person then has control over the information. When it comes to probably unintentionally covering up the truth and sorting out the correct answers using facts the conclusion is flawed and an injustice to the memory of the deceased.

              • Patricia BremnerI guess you are closer to the action.

                Do you have a hospital letter with the piece at the base? Otherwise go online and look for a Health Advocate in your area. Ours has a phone number for Rotorua.

                Put in Health Advocate and the name of your town or region. All the best. Write down the points I mentioned earlier. It may be different for the deceased.

              • Patricia Bremner

                Oh that is not very good. Often patients sign a waiver as well.

                The Advocate is the Health Advocate for your city/region. They take your case and seek clarification for you. Death may change that, but if there are discrepancies you might get a letter to clarify or expose them to the coroner at least This is a free service.

                • Treetop

                  Thank you for that Patricia. DHB recieved 3 lots of questions from me over 18 months, one third answered, one third partly answered and one third not answered. No post mortem was done either.

                  Multiple organ failure was the cause of death BUT the cause of multiple organ failure is what I am disputing. Many medical reasons for the cause of respiratory and metabolic acidosis which end up as organ failure. As well an antecedent cause can appear beside the cause of death.

                  • Patricia Bremner

                    Oh Treetop, it hard to get answers from them without the advocate, because they have to answer. So sorry for your situation.

                    • Treetop

                      The first and second lot of my questions were asked through the HDC. The HDC only investigates 4% of complaints. Last month Patterson a former HDC commissioner voiced how there is no right of review for HDC decisions. The health select committee is looking into the HDC. There is no final decision on the case I took to the HDC only a preliminary decision and the HDC closed the file.

  2. Dennis Frank 3


    gender dysphoria, a medical condition in which a person feels intense unease about the mismatch between their gender identity and their biological sex.


    This intrigues me. I empathise with those who feel such discomfort and agree that user-defined gender categories seems a suitable solution.

    Trans, non-binary, takatāpui, intersex and gender-fluid people (henceforth referred to as gender minorities) have a gender identity that may not fit the binary based on biological sex.

    Essential, therefore, that sex and gender become separated in law and in the public mind! However, Labour seems intent on ignoring this necessity:

    The Births, Deaths, Marriages and Relationships Registration Bill​ (BDMRR) will allow anyone to change the listed sex on their birth certificate through a statutory declaration; the same process used for passports and driving licences.

    Okay, you will be wanting to point out that it's totally unreasonable to expect Labour folk to be intelligent enough to spot the difference. True. However they could be seeking expert advice, eh? Any sign of that??

    • Nic the NZer 3.1

      As usual I advocate for politicians to actually listen to what constituants want. At least to the ideologs who started writing about this, sex is a social construct and the category should be replaced with gender identity for social progress to occur. They are not going to be satisfied with merely having an extra (mostly unused) category on documents and society largely carrying on as it has. They might be satisfied (enough to move on) if you and everybody else understands that talking about biological sex as if its a relevant fact puts you in the same category as that slightly racist uncle in the family. At least this appears to be what is the most politically pressing issue of the present time.

      Now please go and write 'gender disphoria is not a medical condition' on a chalk board until you no longer have problems understanding.

      • Dennis Frank 3.1.1

        You think I agree with Stuff reporter Charlie Mitchell? I didn't say so, did I? I neither agree nor disagree. Since you seem to believe 'gender disphoria is not a medical condition' it would probably be helpful to attempt a validation, eh?

        Doing so could give us a reason to believe there's more to your opinion than subjective impression. I'm intrigued by the diagnosis angle – I wouldn't have thought it possible for medical professionals to diagnose on the basis of someone's feelings. These are internal and fall into the same category as subjective impressions. Medical experts are meant to be scientific, which requires objective data for decisions.

        • francesca

          So what are psychiatrists?

          Not medical experts?

          • Dennis Frank

            Interesting question. I'm not opposed to diagnosis based on a subject's self-perception. If I was the subject, I'd get pissed off with a medical professional ignoring my impressions real fast!

            I was simply reporting the status quo, in which, as is usual with the status quo, mainstreamers recycle the 19th century ad nauseum. In this context, I referred to expectations that science rules medicine – and the 19th century scientific paradigm ruled subjectivity out.

        • Nic the NZer

          I am more than willing to discuss if my comment was funny. However you will not summon my reply, I will reply after a blog post of which I will decide.

          If you want a reply I am willing but I have some conditions,

          Before you can read it you must read every positive submission to the BDMRR bill, you can only read it where its posted and after I have posted it and you must admit that Jordan Peterson is not funny.

      • Gabby 3.1.2

        They might just have to live with being unhappy in this matter.

    • Treetop 3.2

      There is the AMA, American Medical Association which has a whole person impairment assessment tool which ACC use.

      There is the DSM, diagnostic statistical manual of mental illness.

      The biggest issue I have with the DSM is that being trans should not be a classification in the manual.

      I also object to the AMA guidelines as they do not recognise that the emotional damage can be worse than the physical damage. Unresolved emotional damage by agencies is what can make PTSD interminable. Look at the Lake Alice survivors and childhood sexual assault survivors needing closure because of government agencies not knowing any better.

      I do not want to see any ones gender identity causing them emotional pain and hurt. If pain and hurt is being caused there is a reason for this and it needs to be resolved.

      • Dennis Frank 3.2.1

        You seem to have a similar view to me. Problems arise when public policy to help one minority has an adverse effect on other minorities. Looks like Labour intends to make this mistake. I hope feminist lobbying will prevent them doing so!

        • Treetop

          I agree with your comment in full.

          I would like to further add how I feel about PTSD due to sexual offending by someone against you which is a crime and not due to a neuro chemical imbalance in the brain. Apparently PTSD is categorised as a mental illness. I object to this lable. The symptoms of PTSD are seen in mental illnesses BUT the cause of PTSD can be due to sexual criminal offence/s against you.

          Then the decider is ACC, ok for straight forward claims, BUT complex historical claims cannot be finalised the same way. ACC's one size fits all can leave a person taking years of their life to sort out their claim. PTSD is intrusive and changes the course of your life and I do think this is enough to deal with.

          Labour is not ready to pass legislation on gender ID and this cannot be rushed.

    • weka 3.3

      However they could be seeking expert advice, eh? Any sign of that??

      Experts submitted to the BDMRR select committee, including international experts. They appear to have been ignored.

      Stats NZ intends to replace sex with gender, except where there is a particular need for sex data.

  3. Blazer 4

    What a difference a day….makes.

    • Sabine 4.1

      yes, my first thought was shipping containers.

      And yip that is what they are, glorified shipping containers, stacked and bolted together. How would that place look in a nice earth quake NZ stylez?

      It is fast however, and would suit environments that are not shaky.

      • Nobody 4.1.1

        Why couldn't you make an "Earthquake Frame" around them which could hold them in place and all together in the event of an earthquake?

      • Patricia Bremner 4.1.2

        China has massive earthquakes, that is why it is built to withstand earthquakes and typhoons. Modular homes well built can be fine.

        • Sabine

          Yes, and the images coming from China after earth quakes do not really inspire me, to be honest.

          Nothing against 'modular' homes, in the seventies in England, Germany, France and East Germany we called this 'Plattenbau'. Platebuilds. They did not age well, and generally get destroyed after a fairly short shelf life. They have however helped alleviate the housing shortage in the late sixties and early seventies.


      • Patricia Bremner 4.1.3

        China has massive earthquakes, that is why it is built to withstand earthquakes and typhoons. Modular homes are fine if well built.

      • Blazer 4.1.4

        Designed to withstand earthquakes-1.21.

        • Sabine

          Can you elaborate on that? It says nothing to me?

          Would it withstand a CHCH earthquake or two? That is a frame of reference that i can understand.

          • Blazer

            Refer to Patricia's post above mine.

            What is the current NZ building standard for buildings to withstand earthquakes

            and at what measure?

            I have no idea.

        • Patricia Bremner

          The earthquake and typhoons were mentioned in the clip. No standard though.

  4. Dennis Frank 5

    Tens of thousands of climate activists marched Saturday through Glasgow, the Scottish city hosting the UN climate summit… with frustrated marchers increasingly dismissive of the climate talks and demanding immediate action instead


    Demanding that world leaders act when those leaders are determined not to act seems futile. Democracy wasn't designed to operate in the sphere of geopolitics. Protesting is mere theatre when you're delusional and refuse to grasp reality.

    However those leaders may respond to the pressure by agreeing to a simulation of necessary change. Presenting a sham that fools all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time is a proven political strategy. Protestors will be easily fooled by it. Media will report the sham as progress. We'll all move on…

    • GreenBus 6.1

      Jacinda's star was dulled the moment the Elimination statergy was dumped in favour of business interests and risible complaing from Auckland. The light went out and now there is nobody at home.

      • mpledger 6.1.1

        I agree. Business interests have been putting intense pressure on the government and the government bowed to it – and it's going to be at the expense of everyone living outside of Auckland. There has never been a time when the general public has been more at risk from catching covid-19 then now.

        • GreenBus

          Yes I think we are all in for a very bad time, and the economy will crap out as well with lots of sick days off work taken due to Covid. This plan to "live with covid" is utterly fucked, all countries doing this are a mess as they stagger along trying to get back to BAU and failing. Idiots.

        • garibaldi

          It is almost as if the Right (ie Business) have planned for this to happen ? They must be delighted watching it all turn to custard.

          • Dennis Frank

            almost as if the Right (ie Business) have planned for this to happen

            They'd be relying on the tendency for neoliberals to be held hostage by business. So the high priestess PM & and her deputy the high priest of neoliberalism must tiptoe the fine line between public health and the economy.

            The winds of change are blowing at the high wire they tread. Any mis-step and the right will whinge about the govt in either direction, as required…

        • Ed1

          It was sad to hear Jacinda speak on Radio NZ this morning giving a comparison between the civil disobedience in Melbourne and that here – it seems 60 days lockdown is enough for too many to start having personal interactions outside a bubble, and so a single case spreads quickly. The media representation of cafe and bar owners and hairdressers as representing us all has fed that frustration; not helped by opposition parties consistently pushing profits before lives . . .

          • Bearded Git

            Jacinda screwed up, under massive pressure from business interests, when she dropped from L3 to L4 a couple of weeks too early….this allowed 300k workers to return to work in Akl and the rest is history.

            But if National had been in charge there would have been thousands of deaths and we would not have had 18 months of normality, so she is still a hero and NZs Covid response remains one of the best in the world.

            Rules mandating masks need to be strict in the future with mask wardens (like traffic wardens) empowered to on the spot fine people.

        • alwyn

          "Business interests have been putting intense pressure".

          Rubbish. The so-called "business interests" have nothing to do with it. There polling is turning downhill and like all politicians they are terrified that they are likely to lose their place at the trough. Nothing so concentrates the mind of a politician so much as the thought that they are going to be hanged at the next election.

          With apologies to Samuel Johnson.

          • Ed1

            The idiot commentators and those that confuse safety precautions with totalitarianism (who knew that speed limits are such a threat to our lives!) encouraged people in Auckland to ignore rules and have parties and meet with friends without taking precautions. We are about to experience National-party normal – profits before lives . . .

      • Molly 6.1.2

        I'm in Auckland. There was little complaining going on about the elimination strategy on the ground. There were however, numerous articles by the talking heads, and on the witless who wanted lockdown to end.

        • dv

          The was an article (stuff?) re possible 1000 per day by xmas, by a modeller

          Now it seems to have gone.

          And one of the problems is the number of unlinked cases, abt 25%?

        • Subliminal

          Thats the saddest part about it Molly. Even with the incessant whining of the media and business, the majority of people still kept a belief in the elimination strategy. If the politicians had asked, they would have found a lot of support. They also had a lot of support to come down hard on the likes of Destiny but instead allowed them to become a reason to ditch elimination. If their hearts were in elimination at the start, it became obvious at the point in Delta where the Auckland lockdown was eased, when another 10 days may have given the required downward trend (especially if combined with a hard line on Destiny nutters and their ilk), that they were moving towards living and dieing and becoming incapacitated with covd.

          • Sabine

            And they very well could choose to go back to it. But for that, someone from government needs to front up to Aucklanders and be honest. No, you will not travel for Christmas. Enjoy the area and the waters that you have, and stay put for the safety of NZ. To those outside Auckland/closed Waikato region/ditto Northland, no people will not be travelling to visit you for Christmas, they too will be staying close to home for the safety of NZ.

            Announce a nice big pack of christmas for all beneficiaries in NZ – as there will be no large scale X-mas dinners run by charities – physical distancing demands this, and it will be for the good of all of NZ.

            Announce a 'rent' aid to all businesses that are closed still becuase of Lockdown rules, simply do it. No business can continue to pay fixed costs without any income. Simply do it. No re-payment required. Apply for teh funds, and done.

            Have a nice televised speach – on all channels, at a decent time say 7 pm, on all radio stations and on all social media. Flex that government muscle and call it a 'fire side chat' by the PM. Admit some errors, be humble, state all of the above and appeal to the pioneer kiwi, this is one chritmas and we will stay at home for it, for the good of the country, so that all of us have another christmas next year with all of our whanau.

            Because most people know what needs to be done, and will do it, and those that whinge the most seem to be the evangelists (Tamaki and crew), the tele evangelists (all our overpaid opinionators mass media type) and a few overhyped and over platformed freaks from the left and the right. But the people, he tangata knows better. So call on them, admit their discomfort, their 'prison', the lack of family and the likes, their poverty, their hunger, their fear, and appeal to their decency. And send out aid, to those that need it, and don't pretend that 5$ next year April will cut it.

        • Jimmy

          I must mix in different circles. I've heard plenty of complaining in Auckland and about Jacinda. When / if she comes to Auckland this week, she needs to choose carefully where she goes as she will certainly not be too popular in some areas.

    • Alan 6.2

      you don't get out much do you Stephen

    • tc 6.3

      No surprise it's not behind their paywall to maximise it's exposure.

    • Patricia Bremner 6.4

      yesdevil Bryce being Bryce.

    • newsense 6.5

      I mean she’s been phenomenal and come under enormous amounts of nasty attack.
      If she were a Nat she would have a sainthood, a Nobel prize and have changed the flag.
      What a hack.

      I can’t believe people who think this is a bad response- look at Germany, look at the UK, look at almost anywhere, NZ has done better.

      The tough part is going to come after opening up.

  5. Dennis Frank 7

    Another diagnosis:

    Swarbrick was diagnosed with ADHD earlier this year, at the age of 27. Though she’s reluctant to describe the diagnosis as either “debilitating or a superpower”, she says the way her mind works delivers some advantages. It helps her feel comfortable flitting between criticising the Reserve Bank and calling for prisons to be abolished, even if it can be less of an unmitigated boon in her family and social circles. “All of the things that serve me relatively well in a political space are the things that irk a lot of people in my family. My little sister gets really annoyed when she’s talking about something to do with her baby and I’m like ‘here is the history of why that is a problem and how we can resolve that’.”

    for someone so ambitious, she’s plagued by self-doubt. During her Auckland Central campaign, she became so overwhelmed that she sat down with scholar and former politician Marilyn Waring for a three-hour pep talk in a park.

    Well, obviously that worked! It will be interesting to see if her diagnosis becomes a negative factor in her political career. She seems inherently self-confident enough to over-ride self-doubt moments.

    It's now clearly understood that the frontal lobe (prefrontal cortex to be specific) in the ADHD brain develops or mature at a slower rate. Generally, maturing is slowed by approximately three years in developing children and adolescents. https://www.adhd.org.nz/what-is-adhd.html

    Your ADHD brain has to work much harder to control and filter attention, behaviours, emotions that come naturally to others of the same age. This is the nature of the "disordered" part. It commonly results in significant fatigue by the end of the day.


    So there's an evident need to incorporate lifestyle resilience around pacing yourself, focus & concentration at times, then shifting away when impulses arrive.

    • swordfish 7.1


      and calling for prisons to be abolished

      Only if dear old Chloe & various other bloated affluent Woke narcissists are forced to live right nextdoor to some of the ruthlessly violent anti-socials being released … the middle class Che Guevara beret-wearing Riks-from-the-Young-Ones are so very very good at volunteering other people [always poorer, often elderly] to do all the suffering that inevitably flows from their deluded luxury beliefs … as they seek to signal their unusually refined moral sensibilities & elevated social status to their fellow Riks.

      Until then … they can pretty much STFU
      [impossible, of course, for self-entitled narcissists suffering from the Dark Triad Personality Type]

      • Dennis Frank 7.1.1

        Heh. I always look for the positive alternative being offered. If the critique fails to include one, just roll your eyes & move on.

        Idealist me agrees prisons are a failure. Pragmatist me discerns no suitable alternative being suggested. Reformist agendas must propose a new form.

        • Bruce

          'Prisons are a failure ' and will continue to be so as long as they keep the system of bully boys in charge, overseeing the efforts of educated reformists. Reaffirmation of pride in culture, yoga, toastmasters, english lessons, gardening and trade training are only provided at the whim of some dullard who sees his future in perpetuating growth in the prison population.

          • Dennis Frank

            Yeah I suspect you have hit the nail on the head there. Residual patriarchy tends to be taken for granted in public policy – by both left & right govts. It ought to be circumvented via intelligent design.

            • Gezza

              Yup. There will I think always be some crims – a few – that need to be removed from general society for the protection of others, there being something wonky in their heads that produces violent & criminal behaviour that simply cannot be reprogrammed out. Psychopathic criminals & extreme narcissists spring to mind.

              Then there are others for whom the best solution IS mental reprogramming – of the cognitive behavioural therapy type – as well as adjuncts such as proper & practical education (far too much illiteracy encountered in our prisons), treatment for treatable psychological & mental health issues, drug recovery programmes, & opportunities previously denied to many for the building of new work skills, new relationships based on the mana-enhancing giving & receiving of respect as a human being, and being a member of one or more communities which value everyone & their contributions & take care of their members, expecting only the same from them.

              Seems so simple to write that; we are a long way away from our Justice system delivering that, and probably even as an overall society at present.

              • Dennis Frank

                Now 30 years since I began writing justice policy drafts for the Greens. I put in a section on rehabilitation. Despite that having since become mainstream policy practice, reports of suitable delivery have been notably sparse. By which I mean they are officially doing it – without officially notifying the public of the success rate.

                So it falls into the grey area between success & failure. I've seen sufficient reportage of successful rehabilitations – media features often generated by those who succeeded. Keeps hope alive for the others. But you're right, some victims are incapable of reforming themselves. In between are others who are probably `working on it'.

              • RedLogix

                Some decades ago I listened to Kim Hill interviewing the somewhat quirky QC Mike Bungay on the event of his retirement. He was best known for defending many notorious crims – often with more success than the establishment would have wished for.

                But he did say something insightful that I've never forgotten. That in his experience about 80% of homicides and serious crime was committed by otherwise ordinary people caught up in extraordinary circumstances they did not know how to deal with. He imagined that a better justice system could find more enlightened ways to handle them.

                The other 20% were in his mind beyond redemption.

      • Puckish Rogue 7.1.2

        I was going to reply to this but you've said it for me so you've saved me the time

      • Ad 7.1.3

        Presumably you will have seen the lawyer from Orakei who is taking their proletarian state house disruptor neighbours to court for 18 months of grief.

        Sounded similar to what your parents have been going through.

        • swordfish


          Ah, cheers for highlighting that situation, Ad … just found the article … hadn't seen it before.

          They have all my sympathy … some real similarities … although my parents are probably in an even worse predicament given the guy is directly on the other side of a (not even remotely soundproof) dividing wall in a two-unit semi-detached.

          More than 90 really major explosions of violent intimidation over the past 4 years (often throughout the early hours of the morning) & extreme sleep deprivation over a prolonged period (they've sometimes been kept awake until dawn over 2 or 3 consecutive nights).

          They have some hope at the moment … he's largely been away over the last 9 weeks … although turns up sporadically (usually around Midnight or 1am) & has inflicted 4 substantial eruptions of intimidation through the early hours over these last 2 months.

          I confronted him way back in 2018 … but it was clear he was desperate for violence, intrinsic facet of his sadistic personality, & I could see he was going to take it out on my parents … so I was just making things worse.

          The Police have made it clear that he is very well-known to them … appears to be on parole … Mongrel Mob affiliations … & has a history of neglect of & violence towards his pet dogs & therefore no longer allowed to have a pet (pretty much tells you all you need to know).

          My parents are in no way affluent like the Orakei lawyer … living solely on the pension … but their mixed/tending low income street is really attractive … beautiful views of Cook Strait & the Marlborough Sounds … very leafy, well established … 80-90% private housing … always very peaceful community-minded, never any street violence or anti-social behaviour in the past.

          • RedLogix

            Yup – something the wokies just cannot accept – that a substantial fraction of people are indeed stupid, dangerous or both.

            And a sane society does all in it's power not to indulge them.

  6. Ad 8

    The Productivity Commission comes out strongly saying: before we let another big wave of immigrants in, can we build the infrastructure required to house them first?

    Productivity Commission calls for higher immigration rates to wait for more infrastructure | Stuff.co.nz

    And also, since the Treaty of Waitangi is essentially an immigrant control mechanism, can we actually recognise the role of the Treaty by specifically asking Maori what they want out of immigration.

    Sounds like Winston was right all along.

    Hopefully it has some impact on the broad Immigration review that's been going on since May.

    • Stuart Munro 8.1

      They might want to consider how they mean to square the emissions circle before they impose further massive population growth on us – but perhaps they enjoy ignoring criticism – "Filthy peasants, you'll take our misgovernance and like it."

    • Nic the NZer 8.2

      Maybe if the productivity commission was paying attention to productivity they could have noticed that earnings per hour worked has gone up since immigration went way down. What they seem to be more interested in falls in the category of profits from exploiting cheap labour.

      • Nic the NZer 8.2.1

        On review, well done to the productivity commission for actually changing its primary narrative (under new leadership).

  7. Ad 9

    Excellent article on the 3-waters reforms and its impact on Jacinda Ardern – by comparing her powerlessness to Lange.

    Graham Adams: Jacinda Ardern and the Ghost of David Lange – Democracy Project

    • GreenBus 9.1

      And her powerlessness to business interests e,g dumping elimination strategy.

      • Patricia Bremner 9.1.1

        Few have beaten Delta better than we have. Keeping a "Shine" after all that has gone before, would be impossible. Bryce does what Bryce does, chew over others' opinions.

        Let's wait to see what todays decision brings. It may be to extend into December, as the supports have increased.

        After all the crises handled with aplomb in NZ, Delta has proven difficult for every country. The decisions are horrible.

        90% fully vaccinated is still not counting 10% plus all children 11yrs and below, a total close to 30% unvaccinated.. So 70% fully vaccinated.? So yes it is keeping her (the PM) awake at night. No one seems to have been able to sustain elimination with Delta… or not for long.

        Lucky Bryce, he just gets to throw muck, stand back and see if any sticks. The bravery was keeping Auckland in lockdown and trying to control the outbreak while fatigue and protests set in. The pressure was eased with the picnic idea.

        We are reaching the time when the goals set may be reached. I would not be surprised to see two more weeks added to allow mature immunity responses for the last few of 90%(70% total pop) to be reached.

        What people are not talking about is how many will get sick, a third possibly suffering long covid, and the high numbers of unvaccinated dying at home or in hospitals.

        Recently Sydney has suffered this outcome, a ward of dying unvaccinated, the sole survivor being a vaccinated woman of middle age.

        Those who push for early opening are playing Russian Roulette Politics. Shame!!

        It will be bad, no matter how we tackle it. I would rather this Government and the current Leaders rather than any other.

        • Anne

          Yes Patricia. You've got it in a nutshell. It will not surprise me if "the govt." (its not just Jacinda who makes the decisions) pushes the current status out for up to two more weeks which would bring the opening up of Auckland to around the 23rd November. There may be a small sweetener for Aucklanders in the meantime but wouldn't hazard a guess what it might be.

          My experiences of Aucklanders which is admittedly mostly my relatives in these times is:

          Not only have they had a gutsful (who hasn't) but they are blaming Jacinda for everything. They are in complete denial over the rising numbers of Covid cases and the ramifications for hospitals and the health system in general. The moment you try to point out the government is trying to save people's lives etc., they lose it as people in denial are wont to do. As far as they are concerned, anyone who isn't vaccinated has no-one but themselves to blame so if they snuff it that's their problem. I know they are doing it tough. They're upset and emotional and are not seeing straight. I have my doubts they ever will. They are typical of a large section of Auckland's population and of course the Opposition parties are milking it for all their worth.

          • Patricia Bremner

            "milking it for all they are worth" Anne, so true. Doing it with glee!! A few more on our blog I note. A few of Gezzer's mates. Our relatives in Auckland are keeping to their home and ordering in as just about every place round them is a “Place of Interest.”

    • swordfish 9.2


    • Puckish Rogue 9.3

      Thats a really interesting article.

      I admit I haven't followed too much of it (undercover of covid?) but my recently retired father in law is attending a 3 waters protest and hes not really the type to protest so thats pretty telling

    • Patricia Bremner 9.4

      3 things 1. David Lange had huge hubris, which is not a feature of Jacinda's manner.

                 2. No one fell to powers more than David did after the bombing of the 

      Rainbow Warrior..giving in to France.

      3. He should have sacked Douglas,  not had a cup of tea.

      There is no comparison except for adroit thinking and eloquence. On every other measure Ardern has had far more impact. She is not a flawed being who has put herself first.

      Please moderators fix that script. Thanks.

      • Stuart Munro 9.4.1

        It's never wise for a politician to fall in love with their PR staff – the modern version of Narcissus being smitten by his reflection. But the Lange's faults stories are rarely told – party survivors not wanting to be reminded of their role in selling out the founding principles of the Labour movement.

    • Subliminal 9.5

      Reads like another attempt at resurrecting the ghost of Don Brash. If Maori are at 17% of the population and Te Tirity promises partnership then playing the "democracy" card just becomes another way to weasel out of obligations that were never intended to be honoured

      • Gypsy 9.5.1

        That depends what you mean by 'partnership'.

        • Subliminal

          Te Tirity was signed between the crown and Maori. To my knowledge no one else was included. So partnership in that case means 50:50

          • Gypsy

            There are significant difficulties in interpreting the treaty that arise out of the differences between the two versions, Maori and English, which the courts have wrestled with. Justice Mckay wrote this:

            "The English and Mäori texts in the first schedule to the Treaty of Waitangi Act 1975 are not translations the one of the other, and the differences between the texts and shades of meaning are less important than the spirit."

            This has led to Parliament referring to the 'principles' of the Treaty, rather than the actual text of each version. The court of Appeal has referred to the treaty being "akin to a partnership", but that itself is not definitive – for example not all partnership's are 50:50.

            It seems to me that the Chiefs who signed the Treaty had something quite different in mind than the representatives if the Crown. That remains, IMHO, a significant problem for us as a nation as we navigate (rightfully) enhanced Maori aspiration with a modern liberal democracy.

            • Subliminal

              Thats all good. So debate over what parnership means, sure. But to assume that on the one hand Maoridom could accept decimation of their population to 17% or on the other that the crown envisaged this to be the aim of any idea of partnership is to live in an alternate reality or a Don Brash and Ayn Rand world where everything that happens to you is the result of freely made choices. To then use this fact of being now only at 17% of the population as a weapon i.e "democracy" is just blind, cruel, right wing ignorance

              • Stuart Munro

                It's a tricky matter, construing the intent of the various parties to the Treaty. More than an equal division of power, the court may have been asserting that a state of goodwill existed or should have existed between the parties, which ought to have halted a good many of the dodgy processes by which Maori assets were taken away over the century that followed.

                The writer's citation with approval of the Taxevaders Union and Curia polls does tend to call into question the weight and direction of his analysis however.

                • Subliminal

                  Not to mention the use of anonymous protesting councillors. We've all seen the fringe element that covd has brought out. The same fringe element exists in anything to do with positive outcomes for Maori. The whole tone is anti Maori rather than any kind of analysis on 3 waters. He's even trying to relitigate Maori wards on councils. If 3 waters becomes a tool to pressure dairy farmers that can only be to the good of the environment and an aid towards getting our emissions down. Its about time we developed a whole system approach and water and its quality is a brilliant and necessary indicator of systemic health

                  • Stuart Munro

                    If 3 waters becomes a tool to pressure dairy farmers that can only be to the good of the environment and an aid towards getting our emissions down.

                    Although some controls are definitely overdue there, there are quite a lot of other users who have inappropriately secured a kind of control over water, of which Nongfu Spring are a prime example.

                    No argument that a holistic approach is to be preferred – but we must be cautious – an iwi based privatisation program would not be intrinsically better than a dodgy RW one.

                  • Gypsy

                    "The same fringe element exists in anything to do with positive outcomes for Maori."

                    True. It's disappointing.

                    "The whole tone is anti Maori rather than any kind of analysis on 3 waters. "
                    Not really. Adams isn't calling out Maori, he's calling out the government for denying He Puapua is anything more than a discussion document while running away implementing it. His comparison with the Lange government implementing policy it kept from the electorate is sound.

                    • SPC

                      For mine an urban myth – Roger Douglas wrote a book in 1983 outlining his plans for the economy and Lange read it before appointing him Finance Minister.

                      Douglas was not hiding anything – I wrote to him in 1983 asked him questions and he replied fairly fully (MP's did in those days, I also got a reply from Hercus that year about their surtax plans – and her/their preference for this over making super a retirement benefit). Douglas wanted an assets tax – he preferred it to an CGT, but in the end did neither. It was possibly his biggest mistake.

              • Gypsy

                I'm not sure where you get the "accept decimation of their population to 17%" from.

                In 1840, the Maori population was around 80k. By 1860 it was around 60k, that's a decline of around 25%. The main cause of death was introduced diseases. After 1860, natural immunity began to reduce that decline.

                But you seem to be conflating two seperate issues. There is no question there were many and serious wrongs inflicted on Maori by the colonists, and the mechanism for addressing those is the Waitangi Tribunal. That process needs to run it's course.

                The imposition of law that provides for 16.5% of the population to hold 50% of the control is inconsistent with a modern democracy. This is what we need to navigate through.

                • Subliminal

                  Many would argue that the control at present is cincentrated in a lot less than 16%. But be that as it may, nobody is demanding an end to democracy. A model has been put forward that puts our whole water sysrem together as a whole. It appears that purely on an operational and infrastructure basis this is a no brainer. A lot of the input is going to come from local iwi. I for one have more confidence in that model than farmer lobby groups or govt bodies like ecan that can be sacked by central govt when the money men milking the system dont get what they want. If we dont get some sort of environmental constraints put on water or at a minimum, some payback for taking a fundamental resource then we're just going to keep getting deeper into a polluted and degraded environment. National and Act have vowed to overturn this so you can easily see that democracy is alive and well. They understand that there is a lot of money to be made from unconstrained use of water in the short term. Iwi will be taking into account the future like no other section of nz society does, sadly

                  • Gypsy

                    "A lot of the input is going to come from local iwi."
                    No, not "a lot", 50%. And it's not just 'input'; it's effective veto. It's placing 50% power in the hands of 16.5% of the population (and as you rightly point out it will be even less than that). That is not democracy, and that’s the conflict I see on the horizon.

                    If 3Waters had real economic merit, it would have not required the bluster, the spin and the broken promises to see it into existence.

                    • Gezza

                      Last sentence, 👍🏼

                      I find the tv ads for 3 Waters misleading, propagandistic, & am fascinated at how much it is targeted AT Māori, & young Māori in particular, by the pidgin English language & characterisations used.

                      When the govt goes to this extent to try build support for a plan they obviously intend to force thru, that’s a worry for future racial harmony.

                      I certainly believe Māori kaitiakitanga is a valuable force to be employed in dealing with the cleanups needed in our waters & environment, but my personal view is that Māori iwi should have no more claim to ownership of water than me or mine.

                      “God” creates water (or if you like, it’s just a natural resource created by the planet’s climate & weather systems). Either nobody should own it – or EVERYBODY should, equally.

                    • RedLogix


                      My mother once told me a fascinating story about her father who worked as a butcher all his life. (Him and his father used to drive the bullocks up and down the street still known in Auckland as 'Bullock Track'.) In later years he worked at Westfield in South Auckland – until he was 75.

                      As a young girl mum said that she recalled a visit she and her mother made to the works. In those days when there was a strike the men had to camp in the works to prevent scab labour from being brought in. And if the strike dragged on their families often had to bring food to them. (There being no UberEats.)

                      Going to the works was not something women did much back then (this would be just post-war I'd guess) and just passing through the gates was intimidating in itself. Worse still when they started asking for dad – no-one knew who they were talking about. They wandered from building to building increasingly distressed at their failure to find him and that no-one apparently knew of the man who had been going to work there for years.

                      Suddenly one man came running up to them – "oh you mean xxx" he said. "Follow me".

                      Now I'm sorry to say I have no recollection of what 'xxx ' was – but mum said it was a Maori nickname that he was universally known as. Soon enough they found him in some back shed having a great time playing cards with all his Maori and Pacifica mates – to everyone's great relief and delight.

                      The notion of the good old days is of course bunk – but it's wrong to think that overt racism was universal or even that commonplace. Among working people there was often a solidarity that transcended ethnicity.

                      I never met my maternal grandfather – he died in a stupid accident the year before I was born – but the many stories my mother told of him, and she loved him dearly, have been the closest to a true family heritage I ever got.

                    • Poission

                      Going to the works was not something women did much back then

                      There were large numbers employed during the war years (bully beef canning),even Eleanor Roosevelt went to Westfield.


              • Foreign Waka

                17% of today's population (5 million). This is 850 000 people. The chart in this link shows that the population was a lot lower in 1840. So if you could be so kind and furnish the numbers in 1740 or earlier it would be a good measure. Thank you.


    • Gypsy 9.6

      It's an excellent piece of writing, and a timely expose on just how much He Puapua is influencing current government policy.

      • Foreign waka 9.6.1

        Is this report an undersigned policy that labor is actively pursuing? Has the wider population been told and ask to give the government a mandate to see this through via electoral means? If this is a no, than NZ is not governed by a government that holds up democratic principles. No amount of shiny "look how well we did" will wash over that fact. But then again, the wider population is not really in the know and maybe not interested and will just follow an image. Tik Tok….

        • Gypsy

          "Is this report an undersigned policy that labor is actively pursuing?""

          The writer makes a good case that they are.

          Has the wider population been told and ask to give the government a mandate to see this through via electoral means? "

          That would be a no. Labour's coalition partner in the last term claims not to have known about HePuapua, so it's certainly not something the government discussed with the electorate.

    • RedLogix 9.7

      Interesting Ad.

      While I still believe there is a case for the Three Waters project on technocratic grounds – I haven't been across the aspects Adams is writing to here.

      Sometime in the 90's I got to ask a Maori Council member – who is still very influential – about his vision for NZ. At that time I was very non-political, my question was asked in total naivety. His reply still lingers in my mind – and I paraphrase I hope accurately.

      His vision is that within another generation that Aoteoroa would be returned to the iwi chiefs in toto. It would revert to 13 or so independent states, each with it's own borders, laws and governed by Maori leadership. There was no mention of democracy.

      I asked about the rest of the people that lived here. He said "oh you can stay if you pay the rent".

      Until I read He Puapua I had largely consigned this conversation to a dusty corner with all the other random oddments you collect in life.

      • Ad 9.7.1

        The choke-hold to watch is:

        Ownership power over water = de facto power over the entire dairy industry.

        We retain a successful economy based on free water to the dairy industry.

        Mahuta currently has no structure to regulate the price of water – just starting to think about it.

        • RedLogix

          Yes – now you come to mention it I recall that at the time the strategy he had in mind involved the forestry industry – but since then dairy has become more important.

          As you know it's my strong and informed view that NZ's water supply industry urgently needs amalgamation to gain the necessary economies of skill and scale to meet the challenges of this next century. But if they're derailed over the politics of an ethnic power grab I'll be damned disappointed.

          • Ad

            It's well overdue this government spent it's political capital somewhere – anywhere. Auckland's amalgamation experience (vertical integration of nearly 40% of NZ’s population) was ok for price, good for water efficiency, but terrible for certainty, security and planning. It's hard to see proof of success occurring elsewhere soon.

            Few will have sympathy for regional councils. Parker in particular is from Dunedin and will have seen how the Otago Regional Council just crushed and rolled a previous Minister of Environment Marian Hobbs two weeks ago.

            The Departments to watch in this are Treasury and MFAT. Treasury won't want yet another oligopoly set up when NZ commerce is so strangled by a key set of them.

            MFAT are in many senses just a subbie to Fonterra and DairyNZ. The industry heat will come out in the submissions.

            I would watch their lobbying (excuse me. input) before the bill becomes drafted text for submissions.

            In absence of any useful coalition partner, it's down to officials to leaven this out.

        • SPC

          The synchronicity is over water supply to horticulture and pastoral farming and river water quality (wadeable, swimable etc at the regional council level) and stock levels – as to methane. And presumably greater Maori involvement in the first two.

    • SPC 9.8

      Meh, from the journalist who broke the He Puapua story …white fear of the future empowerment of the indigenous people in governance

      the idea that if the government does what Maori want white people will go Trump and vote NACT, projected onto the Three Waters reform to make it relevant to now and 2023 …

      and the add on that Ardern's popularity is being misused by others in her caucus government, the message in that is she has become a threat to non Maori

      • RedLogix 9.8.1

        Giving an un-elected ethnic elite who represent less than 15% of the population such a dominant share of political power tears up the democratic contract to say the least.

        If this is what you want – then just state your position openly and without ambiguity. What is your vision for this nation's governance?

        • SPC

          For mine the Democracy Project at risk of being exposed as part of the wokewash white establishment (younger than the Listener writers and audience but very much the same) that was complacent about growing inequality for decades (and then opposed CGT except on the path National enabled).

          Rushing into the arms of Mr Orewa (one people one law one people one vote) because of "democracy" and the majority decides – just as settler governments back in the 19thC. A share of delivery of services to Maori as benevolence, but not partnership in the management of assets and resources because real exercise of power is "democratic" – like the regional councils enabling pollution of waterways by farmers and urban councils letting underground out of sight decay to go for decades.

          The issue is good governance.

          The politics of this are blatant – I'll call it now in every second term of a Labour government National will go all out on being anti-Maori.

          • RedLogix

            Rushing into the arms of Mr Orewa (one people one law one people one vote) because of "democracy" and the majority decides

            Well that seems a straight forward rejection of democracy and erases the basis on which we grant Parliament it's legitimacy.

            Anything else?

            • SPC

              A constitution also limits democracy and many have them.

              Why is one, designed to preserve, say the white property owner in New England OK, and one recognising partnership with Maori not?

              Just say it you oppose partnership with Maori in management of public assets, despite the influence of farmers and business (PPP'S) on central and local government (enabling farmer pollution by not even applying accountability to regulations). Why tolerate such flaws in an imperfect democracy to the point of resisting a change in management that might diminish these flaws in governance standards?

              • RedLogix

                Well yes – giving the iwi elites a non-elected power of veto over pretty much all political power in NZ would obviously undermine the authority and legitimacy of Parliament.

                The other 85% of the population – who are not all 'white' incidentally – might very quickly conclude that voting is pointless and consider resorting to other means to protect their interests.

                • SPC

                  What has Maori representation on 4 regional water bodies managing public assets to do with democratic governance by parliament?

                  Breathe. I realise white people get triggered by the idea of loss of control. But at least be rational.

                  Have you ever got angry at government appointees to HB's or respected the comptence brought? Would not Maori governance be interested in the long term public good, unlike some interests with influence on local councils?

                  • RedLogix

                    I realise white people get triggered by the idea of loss of control.

                    Right there – you clearly anticipate that control should be taken from the current political setup and transferred elsewhere. You would not say this otherwise.

                    And it would indeed be irrational to ignore the undeniable fact of this 'non-Cabinet' document called He Puapua – that no-one voted for – seems to be increasingly a blueprint for radical political change in many areas of both public and private life.

                    (One aspect I'm particularly aware of , and has had little public traction so far, is to give ownership of the entire Conservation estate to the iwis. Given the opaqueness of the policy process at present there is a lot of confusion around what is intended – but the mere talk of the possibility arouses considerable angst among those who have a deep connection to NZ's wild places.)

                    If you think He Puapua is the right path forward just say so openly and with conviction.

                    • SPC


                      1. you think Three Waters is an improvement in management
                      2. it's patently obvious that those who have a long term focus on the public good would be trusted partners in managing public assets.
                      3. but He-Puapua, it's an obsession.

                      I'll leave it to others to indulge you and Mr Orewa fanboys to like.

                    • RedLogix
                      1. Does He Puapua exist or not?

                      2. Have number of it's proposals become public policy already or not?

                      3. Do you support it or not?

                      Attacking me personally is a pretty transparent dodge to avoid answering the question.

                    • SPC

                      Imagine what you like.

                    • RedLogix


                    • swordfish


                      You've just flushed out 1 example of the profoundly anti-democratic sentiments of the Māori ethno-nationalist & Woke Pakeha Brahmin “Left”.

                      The elitism … the bare-faced contempt for majority opinion … the uber-romanticisation of minorities … so a co-governing Aristocracy of Iwi Elites & affluent PMC ideologues.

                    • Gezza

                      @ Swordfish

                      Harsh, but true – and very much needs to be said.

                      There needs to be MUCH more OPEN, even rigorous, debate about He Puapua – by all sectors of society – if we are to avoid our generally genuinely harmonious Pākehā-Māori relationships in Kiwiland turning toxic & ending up being set back perhaps by as much as a century by acrimonious divisions & claims & assumptions (from both sides) about the modern day superiority of one culture over another.

          • Foreign waka

            SPC –
            You might be in for a surprise. But please keep going. People like you lose the election for labor. Maori have currently 2% according to the latest poll.


            As to Partnership, tell me this: What is holding Maori back to get a decent education, to achieve and work for a better life for their whanau? And btw., many would be whakama if this is a proposition.

            If you imply that 50:50 means that you should get a slice of the hard work of the rest of the population segment (34%) without contributing than this is not about democracy but something else.

            50 percent immigrants of recent times, 17% Maori, 34% immigrants seconded to support 17%. Yes?

        • Descendant Of Smith

          I've long argued for equal numbers of Maori and general seats in parliament to reflect an equal partnership. Feel the same about councils.

          I don't think there is anything to fear about that and NZ has a long history of imbalance in voting power and of trying to correct that e.g. giving women the vote.

          Democracy isn't just about one person one vote and majority rule. Democracy should protect minority interests and the interest of the indigenous population as well.

          The notion that we are at the current best model for the overall interests of New Zealand is as laughable as thinking first past the post was the best option possible.

          • SPC

            A Treaty Select Committee is an option – and resourced to determine impact of policy on indigenous rights etc.

          • RedLogix

            I've long argued for equal numbers of Maori and general seats in parliament to reflect an equal partnership.

            That sounds cool until you realise it means that every person on the Maori role gets roughly four or five votes for every one that everyone else gets.

            And having a Ngati Kahungunu grandfather I'd be an idiot not to take advantage.

            • Descendant Of Smith


              You get one vote on the Maori roll for your local Maori seats and no vote for the general seats. 60 Maori seats and 60 non Maori seats would mean that every major iwi would have representation in parliament – just like non-Maori would have their 60 local constituent seats.

              • RedLogix

                Ah I think I see what you mean – correct me if I'm wrong – but are you suggesting there should be 60 Maori seats that are not elected at all, but appointed from within each of the iwi?

                • SPC

                  I doubt it. Clue – 120 FPP electorates is not MMP and there would not be the same number of voters in each (some would argue that some Maori Maori electorates have fewer or more voters than others to reflect iwi community better).

                  I prefer a Treaty SC myself – it’s more about governance accountability and transparency to build up trust and partnership.

                • Descendant Of Smith

                  No 6o Maori seats aligned to iwi boundaries and candidates stand and get elected as well in those seats – no different to the current Maori seats but more of them – and less general seats.

                  • RedLogix

                    But you do understand that iwi are not democratic entities in the slightest. Who do you think would pick the 'candidates' being voted for in these iwi electorates?

                    • Descendant Of Smith

                      Parties would still pick their candidates as they do in the Maori seats now or as currently people can stand as independents.

                      Basically 60 rohe pōti.

                    • RedLogix

                      So if the parties pick the candidates who do they answer to? The party that nominated them – or the iwi they're supposed to represent?

                  • SPC

                    The issue that would occur would be if electorate rolls would be based on residence or iwi (or choice of one or the other – some Maori would have multiple iwi connections).

                    • Descendant Of Smith

                      It is residence now.

                      The point is to share power more even handedly. As it stands now Maori power can be diminished through the voting system by something as simple as immigration – which in effect is what has happened over the years.

                      Without a structural change the rest is just tinkering.

                    • SPC

                      For mine it's a direction.

              • Foreign waka

                This sounds like a half tribal tent government. You are either in or out. Good luck.

      • Foreign waka 9.8.2

        SPC – The message is that democracy has been disestablished with the help of Maori. This will not do them any favors. Lets see what next election brings. Could well be that all those votes that labor won from the right will move back. Right now, polling shows that labor has fallen below the majority in the house. Maori are on 2%. Act polls higher than the greens. Not sure what you are seeing but this looks like some shift in the balance to me.

    • newsense 9.9

      Lol- an excellent article?
      This is the same writer I now realize of please, won’t someone think of the musket wars!
      If only Michael Bassett were the one teaching our kids! We could tell them about the black on black violence, so all other violence and inequity is okay!
      And in this article he must be asking us to remove the scourge of neo-liberalism foisted on us by the terribly weak Mr Lange?
      No, not that either.

      I don’t know everything about the proposal and removing a key asset from local councils seems like a good way to pick a fight with a whole bunch of previously non-aligned folk. However, I don’t trust him quoting ACT supporting QCs and continually saying 50:50. The guy has a bee in his bonnet, and wants us to believe it’s a beehive.
      Anyway, I don’t know if there’s an improvement on this as an explainer but the fear on here really seems Orewa speech-ish.

  8. Reality 10

    Very difficult decision to be made today by Cabinet. We thought last year was bad, this Delta outbreak makes last year seem a walk in the park.

    Bryce Edwards' Herald headline gleefully reports on Jacinda's 'shine' coming off. I doubt any Prime Minister apart from during World War 2 has ever had as many fraught challenges to deal with.

    The constant stream of complaints, whining and moaning, by all and sundry, plus obnoxious anti-vaccinators thrusting themselves in our faces, actually makes the situation harder to deal with. Wish some people would just shut up.

    • Ad 10.1

      They will do what they've done throughout and just rubber stamp the MoH advice.

      • Patricia Bremner 10.1.1

        In a Health crisis what else Ad?

        • Ad

          We need politicians who are more than puppets for bureaucrats exercising physical control over us.

          The political element – the part for politicians – is rising fast.

          This 6 weeks to Christmas is the trickiest of her Prime Ministership.

          Even the Christchurch massacre was more cut-and-dried than this.

          • Patricia BremnerI guess you are closer to the action.

            You are closer to the action Ad. The middle way folk were only going to back her as long as they felt they were gaining.

            Having to face covid a slowing housing market and taxes they do have grouches.

            Over the next two years there will be successes as well as new problems. Like other countries we will adapt.

            It may be an important 6 weeks, but not the most important. What we have to guard against is white anting. Cheers.

            • weka

              please fix user name on next comment. That’s four comments with obvious problems.

              • Patricia Bremner

                I was having great trouble fixing things. One post the script went minute, another post appeared to pick up part pf a comment to Ad, so I left then came back and managed to correct two comments Sorry Weka. I usually check, but it would not let me correct it at first.

    • Bearded Git 10.2

      Bryce Edwards is always predictable….he parrots a lot of right wing criticism as though, because there is a lot of it, it must be true. There is not an oriental thought in his analysis.

      Can't be bothered reading him any more.

    • Jimmy 10.3

      Isn't the decision pretty much already made? My understanding is today's 4pm will simply announce or confirm that Auckland retailers are allowed to open from Wednesday (midnight Tuesday).

      I will be surprised if it is any different to that.

      There may be something about size of indoor and outdoor gatherings although no one here in Auckland is concerned about that as everyone pretty much just does whatever now. As I've said before, it has been level 1 down at Orakei beach for months.

    • newsense 10.4

      Yeh. They can just fuck right off. If she was a Nat who had done so amazingly, the Churchillian tributes would be flowing.
      I mean this is a website who ran an incoherent defense of famous tribal historian Michael Bassett. It’s the lever of panicked righties.
      Not having half the right base vote for her anymore doesn’t mean she’s not a very popular and capable PM. It just means those who didn’t like the idea of Collins and Brownlee are cranking up to have another go and they’re getting nastier.

  9. Blazer 11

    Food for thought…where does it end.

    • Robert Guyton 11.1

      Puts werewolves in an awkward spot! Selkies too.

    • Cinder 11.2

      OAN? Really?

      Food for thought for the gullible and cognitively challenged.

      Are you going to link to something from the Epoch Times or Nexus next?

      • Blazer 11.2.1

        The content was interesting.

        What did she say that you found so facile?

        Not familiar with the Epoch Times or Nexus.Not sure if your critique has much weight.

        • Macro


          The conservative cable network One America News has a minuscule audience, attracts few readers on the web and has struggled to break into the television mainstream.

          But thanks to one powerful viewer in the White House, the network’s influence — and its conspiracy theories — are echoing in the highest reaches of American politics.

        • McFlock

          What content did she have to say? Not giving those trumpists my clicks.

          let me guess – if trans folk were recognised as existing, people would self-identify ethnicity to get affirmative action spots, then self identify as turtles to marry a frog?


        • Cinder

          OAN – context free bullshit guaranteed.

          It took me all of five minutes to get the context surrounding those claims:



          And regarding Craigslist, anyone who isn't a cornfed Ken & Barbie clone knows it is full of people with kinks looking for gratification. They would also know there are a segment of people who are sexually gratified by dressing as babies, being treated as babies, etc… A "specialty act" to paraphrase Deadwood.

          If you knew anything about OAN you would know they are basically full of shit spreading dis-information about everything from BLM to Covid to the US elections.

          For more information about how they formulate their "News" coverage I recommend you read the CJR item on them:


          It's basically one mans disinformation project. On the plus side, they are being sued for over $1 billion dollars for some of their lies surrounding the last US election.

          Oh, and "bible bashing Barbie" as I shall refer to her has a looooong history of lying about things…

          • Blazer

            Thats good information.

            There are so many opinion sources out there these days that I guess every

            bias and prejudice is catered for.

            There is a healthy distrust of MSM evident by commentators all around the world.

            I have seen a number of interviews with Cathy Areu,who has some non mainstream views-they are primarily on Fox News however.

            She is given a platform with high traffic to explain her take on a number of quite new/radical topics…like 'theybies'.

            Should her opinion be discounted because it is broadcast on..Fox.

            • McFlock

              Pretty much. If it's only on Fox, or Fox and the even more right wing OANN, it's probably bullshit.

      • Macro 11.2.2

        Took the words out of my mouth. OAN!!! Good grief.

  10. Robert Guyton 12

    Pivotal to the argument that choice is paramount (no mandate, no coercion…) is the consequences of getting it wrong. Not so much the consequence to yourself, more, to the wider community. If it didn't matter to anyone but you, whether you got vaccinated or not, then fine, there'd be little anxiety/frustration/anger out there, but, it is argued, there is great cost to the rest of us, if things go wrong as the result of your choice. Then, of course, the defence is raised: you won't be affected by "my" choice, so butt-out!

  11. adam 13

    At this point, if your not a revolutionary, then your just not paying attention. I know at this point the liberals going to whinge, almost as much as the tories. But our government has been captured in a corporate coup, and they will kill us all to feed their never fulfilled greed.

  12. Gezza 15

    Oops. Rogue full stop mucked that attempt up. Try again…

  13. Dennis Frank 16

    Here comes web 3:

    Central to this tech movement, nicknamed Web 3, for a third wave of internet innovation, is that what people create in these online communities belongs to them, a shift away from the Big Tech model of "accumulating energy and attention and optimizing it for buying behavior," Gill said.

    Evan Greer, an activist with Fight for the Future, said it's easy to see Facebook's Meta announcement as a cynical attempt to distance itself from all the scandals the company is facing. But she says Meta's push is actually even scarier. "This is Mark Zuckerberg revealing his end game, which is not just to dominate the internet of today but to control and define the internet that we leave to our children and our children's children," she said.

    Activists are calling for the US to pass a national digital privacy act that would apply not just to today's platforms like Facebook but also those that might exist in the metaverse. Outside of a few such laws in states such as California and Illinois, though, actual online privacy laws remain rare in the US.


    Looks like there's a shift happening: instead of heads stuck agonising over the failure of social media to provide a non-toxic option, we're shifting into brainstorming the solution. As in the wild west, the cultural frontier will have to be tamed by laws. Cyberspace being inherently nonlocal, this means lawyers being confronted with the concept of territory-transcending law. Too novel for them to be able to think about??

  14. observer 17

    Plenty to consider in today's post-Cab. All about those second doses now.

    But the highlight (lowlight?) was Barry Soper asking about going to the loo. The PM is far too nice, she should have answered "I have to toilet-train Neve, but not you".

    • Jimmy 17.1

      Yep a pretty dumb question from Barry Soper trying to get a "gottcha" type moment. Thought we had moved on from that as we all know Jacinda, Robertson, Hipkins and Bloomfield last month all gave different answers on going to the loo so there was inconsistency, but surely a bit of common sense applies?

    • georgecom 17.2

      is Barry a bit slow that he needs toilet stuff explained to him in great detail? of the myriad of things the media could ask about, Barry decided his golden moment would be to talk about toilets?

    • Anne 17.3

      The man is so eaten up with his hatred of Jacinda. You can hear the venom in his tone of voice. Its time he saw a shrink.

      • fender 17.3.1

        He's in bed with all the FoxtalkZB nutters, they all need professional help.

      • Shanreagh 17.3.2

        It is not helped by his choice of spouse either. Must be lovely /sarc/ to have a 'hate-session' with your spouse about your mutual 'hatee'. She is as bad as him, if what I am hearing she has been saying in Auckland about the terrible Wellingtonians is accurate.wink

  15. Janet 18


    So now Whangarei hospital , the base hospital that Northlander’s from all over Northland are sent to when things get too serious for the outlying medical centres and handful of small community hospitals around Northland to handle , has a Covid patient in care.

    I would be very interested to know just how much this one case of covid in Whangarei hospital is now impacting on the usual day to day routines, operations and medical practice of this sole significant Northland hospital , a hospital already over-burdened by Northlanders everyday medical demands.

    Surely it would be more practical, a better use of suitable ICU staff and more economic to have several hospitals designated solely to Covid care here and there around NZ ? They would not necessarily have to be public hospitals.

  16. Reality 19

    Barry Soper's insistence on the PM solving his toilet dilemma is almost comical, as in age, and sometimes prostate conditions that go along with that.

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